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Talk About Tulsa => PlaniTulsa & Urban Planning => Topic started by: carltonplace on December 17, 2013, 08:32:46 am



Title: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: carltonplace on December 17, 2013, 08:32:46 am
Will Tulsa face the same problems as Austin? We certainly have the same mindset and disdain for public transportation and love of our cars, highways and parking lots.

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757580/even-an-85-mph-highway-cant-fix-austins-traffic-tangle (http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757580/even-an-85-mph-highway-cant-fix-austins-traffic-tangle)

Four decades ago, Austin, Texas, had a population of 250,000 and a reputation as a laid-back oasis of liberal politics and live music. Today, the Austin metro area is home to 1.8 million people and has some of the nation's worst traffic congestion.

For years, the city has done little to address the growing problem. But most in the Texas capital now agree something has to change if Austin is to save what's left of its quirky character.


"I used to feel like I could go anywhere in 12 minutes," says Amy Scofield, a successful artist who has lived and worked in Austin for more than 22 years. "And I still have that mentality, and now I'm late all the time. And I'm stressed out all the time because a 12-minute trip takes 25 at least."


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: Conan71 on December 17, 2013, 09:46:18 am
I was in Austin in March of ’09 and went back this last April. I was really shocked at how much worse the congestion had become in that short amount of time.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: DTowner on December 17, 2013, 03:30:06 pm
While planning for and growing mass transit would have helped, a city that grows by a multiple of 7 over a few decades is going to have congestion problems.  And, yes, Ms. Scofield, that means it will take longer than 12 minutes to get from anywhere to anywhere no matter your mode of transportation.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: TheArtist on December 17, 2013, 04:14:09 pm
Will Tulsa face the same problems as Austin?

No, that's absurd.  Our growth rate is way too slow, almost non existent, to negative actually.  More likely to face something similar to Detroit the way we are going.  Actually, over the last 5 years Tulsa has lost more jobs, percentage wise than Detroit has. Meanwhile Austin has gained tremendously.       


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: sauerkraut on December 21, 2013, 02:11:55 pm
Every city in Texas is booming and growing fast. I lived in the D/FW area back in the 1980's and I thought traffic was bad then, I-30 was always traffic choked, the Central Expressway was the pits,  today when I drive down to D/FW roads are really choked, each morning the I-820 loop at  I-35W connection in north Fort Worth is always backed up, sure they expanded and widened the roads, but more roads are still needed and wider roads are needed to keep up with the growth. Tulsa's city population is slugglish we are still under the 400,000 mark, the city of Omaha out grew Tulsa in the past decade with a population of over 400,000, however Tulsa's metro area is growing fast. Austin Texas is really booming they have many high tech industries attracting many people plus all the schools in the area. Maybe Tulsa  needs an idenity.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: jacobi on December 21, 2013, 05:11:02 pm
Maybe we need a 4 year, residential, public university?  Austin would not have a shot at growing they way it has without UT there.  Don't we have a school of some kind near downtown.....


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Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: TheArtist on December 21, 2013, 05:39:27 pm
Maybe we need a 4 year, residential, public university?  Austin would not have a shot at growing they way it has without UT there.  Don't we have a school of some kind near downtown.....


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Yes we do, but they wouldn't want to grow the university downtown because that would be a huge catalyst for increased growth in the city, and state, and make that university even more desirable and competitive, so instead the money is spent to grow the university in Stillwater instead which will not have nearly as large a positive impact on the city, state and university. 


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: davideinstein on December 22, 2013, 02:06:57 pm
Yes we do, but they wouldn't want to grow the university downtown because that would be a huge catalyst for increased growth in the city, and state, and make that university even more desirable and competitive, so instead the money is spent to grow the university in Stillwater instead which will not have nearly as large a positive impact on the city, state and university. 

Spot on.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: SXSW on January 18, 2014, 12:09:45 am
I am hopeful that myopic way of thinking will eventually change and OSU realizes the benefits of having a thriving urban 4 year university, research center and hospital in downtown Tulsa in addition to the main campus in Stillwater.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: jacobi on January 18, 2014, 07:44:07 am
I am hopeful that myopic way of thinking will eventually change and OSU realizes the benefits of having a thriving urban 4 year university, research center and hospital in downtown Tulsa in addition to the main campus in Stillwater.

I understand OSU's reticence to dilute their student body and programs.  The thing is that OSU Tulsa should have different programs to keep the campuses unique.  I propose a brewery science program like UC Davis.  1. It would attract people from out of state to the school so Tulsa and Stilly wouldn't be pulling from the same pool of people.  2. It would be a great feather our cap to have one of the few programs in the field.  3.  Imagine all of the brewers running around Tulsa.  We would have to change the drillers name.


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Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: Conan71 on January 18, 2014, 09:16:18 am
I understand OSU's reticence to dilute their student body and programs.  The thing is that OSU Tulsa should have different programs to keep the campuses unique.  I propose a brewery science program like UC Davis.  1. It would attract people from out of state to the school so Tulsa and Stilly wouldn't be pulling from the same pool of people.  2. It would be a great feather our cap to have one of the few programs in the field.  3.  Imagine all of the brewers running around Tulsa.  We would have to change the drillers name.


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Innovative course programs is a great idea.  What are some other less common programs aside from brewing science that would make sense as an attraction to out-of-state students?  OSU Tulsa could gain a reputation for having a wide selection of less common degree programs.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: jacobi on January 18, 2014, 10:43:17 am
Renewable energy engineering.  A good buddy of mine got his undergrad in ME at OSU but had to go to Lubbock to study wind turbine design for his masters.


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Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: patric on January 18, 2014, 10:54:19 am
I understand OSU's reticence to dilute their student body and programs.  The thing is that OSU Tulsa should have different programs to keep the campuses unique.  I propose a brewery science program like UC Davis.

The special interests would smoot all over that.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: jacobi on January 18, 2014, 01:19:03 pm
The special interests would smoot all over that.
It would be interesting to see the arguments against.  It wouldn't have anything to do with cutting into Jarbo's business.  As long as we kissed his ring (hell endow a chair in his name) the only people left would be fundies.  I don't think they would win on this.  Then again, never underestimate Okies' ability to trash a good idea.


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Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: Snowman on January 19, 2014, 05:57:25 am
Will Tulsa face the same problems as Austin? We certainly have the same mindset and disdain for public transportation and love of our cars, highways and parking lots.

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757580/even-an-85-mph-highway-cant-fix-austins-traffic-tangle (http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757580/even-an-85-mph-highway-cant-fix-austins-traffic-tangle)

Four decades ago, Austin, Texas, had a population of 250,000 and a reputation as a laid-back oasis of liberal politics and live music. Today, the Austin metro area is home to 1.8 million people and has some of the nation's worst traffic congestion.

For years, the city has done little to address the growing problem. But most in the Texas capital now agree something has to change if Austin is to save what's left of its quirky character.


"I used to feel like I could go anywhere in 12 minutes," says Amy Scofield, a successful artist who has lived and worked in Austin for more than 22 years. "And I still have that mentality, and now I'm late all the time. And I'm stressed out all the time because a 12-minute trip takes 25 at least."

Tulsa's network of highways was better arranged than Austin's to begin with, though they are in the process of fixing some of the issues, building your way out of congestion rarely works (especially at the rate they are growing). Though one benefit though is it is somewhat useful to those who want development of walk-able neighborhoods downtown or adjacent to it.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: TheArtist on February 07, 2014, 07:36:55 am
A conservative city looked to the future and decided they did not want to develop like Los Angeles and decided to build up transit, and also encourage a healthier lifestyle with transit culture in the mix.

Watch Video Here
http://vimeo.com/69338793



Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: TheArtist on March 18, 2014, 10:37:51 am
  Can someone point me to a bus route/bus stop map for Tulsa.

Just had someone in the shop from Italy and they were wanting to get from downtown to Philbrook.  Several of us dug through the Tulsa Transit website and couldn't find what we needed.  

Did find a nifty little map that had colored arrows (indicating different busses) on it that moved around.  Saw that there was a bus heading toward the shop but there wasn't any indication on that map as to where the bus would go? Couldn't find a good ol "bus route" map with the colored routes and stops marked out, anywhere. You would think it would have been with the "arrows"?


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: AquaMan on March 18, 2014, 10:48:54 am
You can buy a map at the station. I found the online version worked well for me in planning which busses went from downtown to West Tulsa and at what times. It does require some close attention to detail. The bus drivers themselves are also very helpful since they've all driven most of the routes.

Its the 105. Found Philbrook at "frequent destinations" menu (105). Then went to schedules pull down and found the 105 route with its stops and times. Southbound stops at 5th and Boulder, then 6th and Boulder. Just took less than three minutes actually.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: rdj on March 18, 2014, 11:13:17 am
I believe Tulsa Transit routes are also tied in with Google Maps meaning you can search the routes from that website.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: TheArtist on March 18, 2014, 01:16:58 pm
You can buy a map at the station. I found the online version worked well for me in planning which busses went from downtown to West Tulsa and at what times. It does require some close attention to detail. The bus drivers themselves are also very helpful since they've all driven most of the routes.

Its the 105. Found Philbrook at "frequent destinations" menu (105). Then went to schedules pull down and found the 105 route with its stops and times. Southbound stops at 5th and Boulder, then 6th and Boulder. Just took less than three minutes actually.

They had one of those maps but it wasn't at all helpful.  For one thing the map didn't show downtown in any detail, nor did it show the location of any bus stops, what side of the street they were on etc.  I tried the route finder but apparently typed in the wrong thing for when I put in 6th Boston on the Tulsa Transit website it showed a stop in another city.  Didn't know our city bus routes went to other cities.  Tried it again later typing in something different and it worked.

 But still, the first line of attack for me, and many others, is to look at a map that shows the routes through town. They usually have them in different colors, then show where the stops are on that map so you can look at it and go "I want to go here…the green route using "this # bus" goes by it, I am here and need to take this bus to get to that one, or the closest stop for that green line/#bus is over there on this side of the street. And then you go to it.  Usually all that info is at the bus stops or on a foldout map, or an image/link to that map is on the first page of the transit website.  First I start with the basic map for thats usually enough, then if I want more detail I search further and on a website the link to a "trip finder" is usually on that page as well. None of us could find that first general map that you expect to see.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: AquaMan on March 18, 2014, 03:07:12 pm
But it does work that way. Go to http://tulsatransit.org/. Then pull down the menu that says, Maps & Schedules. That pull down has a section that says,  Maps, then choose "System Map".

You have to enlarge the system map but when you do it clearly shows different colored routes with their numbers. Note the number, then you can go to "Schedules" under the same Maps & Schedules pull down.

Since you knew your destination, Philbrook, all you had to do was pull down "Maps & Schedules" and choose Frequent Destinations then pull down "Schedules" for that route number.

I remember in high school merely going to the bus stop where a schedule was in place behind plexiglas with routes and times. Vandals screwed that for us. The rest of it was screwed by folks who think "there's an app for that!"


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: Conan71 on March 18, 2014, 03:08:25 pm
Maybe the lack of ease of use for everyone could be a disincentive to using the system.  Might be a teachable moment for Tulsa Transit.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: AquaMan on March 18, 2014, 03:25:05 pm
Maybe the lack of ease of use for everyone could be a disincentive to using the system.  Might be a teachable moment for Tulsa Transit.

Conan, I'm the generation that is supposed to be computer averse. Just took three minutes! That particular route has the most stops, and is the busiest route of them all. It runs from far north Tulsa to far South. Lots of poor, dumb people have figured it out.  I haven't tried their app though. Maybe it is harder.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: TheArtist on March 18, 2014, 04:39:34 pm
But it does work that way. Go to http://tulsatransit.org/. Then pull down the menu that says, Maps & Schedules. That pull down has a section that says,  Maps, then choose "System Map".

You have to enlarge the system map but when you do it clearly shows different colored routes with their numbers. Note the number, then you can go to "Schedules" under the same Maps & Schedules pull down.

Since you knew your destination, Philbrook, all you had to do was pull down "Maps & Schedules" and choose Frequent Destinations then pull down "Schedules" for that route number.

I remember in high school merely going to the bus stop where a schedule was in place behind plexiglas with routes and times. Vandals screwed that for us. The rest of it was screwed by folks who think "there's an app for that!"

I still don't see it.  I see the same map she had and that I saw earlier online, but don't see one that has the stops on each route.  Is there one for downtown?  That map has downtown a big blob of lines that you can't tell what streets each bus goes down or which side the stops are on and where the stops even are?

When I stayed in London for that month the intersections near where I lived had about 12 bus stops within a couple blocks.   If I wanted to go to Piccadilly Circus for instance, I would look on any map at any of the bus stops and you would see which colored route went there and which busses, then it would let you know that say the blue line busses 121, 246 & 118 traveled that route and would pick you up at bus stop "H".  You would look at the map and see that bus stop "H" was around the corner to the right on the south side of the street. You would then go to the correct bus stop and wait for the correct bus. While there, if I wanted, I could then look online or at the digital signage to see when my bus was going to be there or online to see how long the trip might take.

The lady was at my shop at 6th and Boston, where was the nearest bus stop to get on the correct bus route to Philbrook?  Easy breezy, but that info is not on the map she had or that pulled up online.  Can you tell me where the nearest bus stop is that would have taken her to Philbrook by looking at that map?  I could see where the line went, and there was even a different page where I could see the bus as a colored arrow traveling down the street (but not along a colored line showing the route and that routes stops).  I could see bus stops all over the place with that map but couldn't tell if that bus was going to stop at any of them or what streets the bus would be going down. It's almost like you had to have two maps pulled up at once and I still don't know if there is one showing all the stops for each particular route.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: nathanm on March 18, 2014, 05:02:21 pm
Interestingly, the bus tracker also shows the route (and its constituent stops) once you click on the given bus.

Clicking on a stop in Google Maps also gives a list of routes that stop at that given stop. The Google Maps trip planner works reasonably well for bus trips if you really just want to know how to get from point A to point B on the bus and don't want to use tulsatransit.org.

None of that is to say that the website is not in need of some serious redesign.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: Red Arrow on March 18, 2014, 05:20:23 pm
Someone please show me how to find this stop on Rt 112 in the Jenks loop on Main St using the bus map.
 
http://goo.gl/maps/QXHw4
http://tulsatransit.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/FallWinterTraveler20134.pdf

Timing points are shown but I too cannot find the stops.  There are several along Main St.  

http://goo.gl/maps/vVh4w

http://goo.gl/maps/2P8BU





 


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: AquaMan on March 19, 2014, 07:59:32 am
Someone please show me how to find this stop on Rt 112 in the Jenks loop on Main St using the bus map.
 
http://goo.gl/maps/QXHw4
http://tulsatransit.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/FallWinterTraveler20134.pdf

Timing points are shown but I too cannot find the stops.  There are several along Main St.  

http://goo.gl/maps/vVh4w

http://goo.gl/maps/2P8BU





 

Is this it? http://174.78.158.38/hiwire?.a=iNextBusSelectStop&Geocode=-95961673.00000001;36022788&type=Landmark&locDetail=JENKS%20CENTER,%20E%20MAIN%20ST,%20JENKS,%2074037&landmarkType=undefined


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: AquaMan on March 19, 2014, 08:05:41 am
I still don't see it.  I see the same map she had and that I saw earlier online, but don't see one that has the stops on each route.  Is there one for downtown?  That map has downtown a big blob of lines that you can't tell what streets each bus goes down or which side the stops are on and where the stops even are?

The lady was at my shop at 6th and Boston, where was the nearest bus stop to get on the correct bus route to Philbrook?  Easy breezy, but that info is not on the map she had or that pulled up online.  Can you tell me where the nearest bus stop is that would have taken her to Philbrook by looking at that map?  I could see where the line went, and there was even a different page where I could see the bus as a colored arrow traveling down the street (but not along a colored line showing the route and that routes stops).  I could see bus stops all over the place with that map but couldn't tell if that bus was going to stop at any of them or what streets the bus would be going down. It's almost like you had to have two maps pulled up at once and I still don't know if there is one showing all the stops for each particular route.

I clicked the "find stops" and it brought up addresses and a map to show them. If it helps, you don't have to be at a stop to hail the bus.
 
Use the timing point that appears before your starting point to determine what time to arrive at the bus stop. It’s better to be early than late! Bus stops are marked with a bus stop sign or bus shelter.
If there is not a bus stop within one city block in either direction from where you want to catch the bus, please stand on the far side of the intersection (past the intersection in the direction that the bus is traveling) or in a safe location for the bus to stop, visible to the operator.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: carltonplace on March 19, 2014, 08:44:05 am
Maybe the lack of ease of use for everyone could be a disincentive to using the system.  Might be a teachable moment for Tulsa Transit.

The lesson they need to learn is to reduce the wait time. I've stood in a bus shelter for 50 minutes before...I could have walked to my destination in that amount of time (41st and Yale to Downtown) but after 30 minutes I was commited.

I've also been less than a mile from my destination only to have the driver pull the bus over for a 15 minute smoke break.
Breaks should be scheduled to coincide with the arrival at Denver station.

Lots of people ride the buses and it seems like the ridership is increasing (at least based on my anecdotal observation). But you get the feeling that MTTA doesn't really care about their customers, they care more about their bureaucracy.

Side note: The smart way to ride is to bring your bicycle with you so you have some control of your destiny.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: Conan71 on March 19, 2014, 08:57:27 am
Conan, I'm the generation that is supposed to be computer averse. Just took three minutes! That particular route has the most stops, and is the busiest route of them all. It runs from far north Tulsa to far South. Lots of poor, dumb people have figured it out.  I haven't tried their app though. Maybe it is harder.

I certainly appreciate that but unless it’s easy to use for everyone, it’s still a problem to increasing ridership.

Did someone say there is a mobile app for TT?


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: TheArtist on March 19, 2014, 09:24:45 am
Looks like the "Live Bus Tracker" is the best thing to use, but I don't like that the default is "not showing" the routes. 

The problem with the site imho, isn't that the info isn't there and can't be found, it's that it's not there in the usual manner one expects.  Great once you figure it out, but for someone from out of town or not used to the local network, they will automatically, first look for what they are used to, the kinds of maps you usually see in other cities, which is what I did, and possibly be frustrated after not finding it.  The live bus tracker is the closest feature having what other maps have, but even there it's not obvious at first glance and might be passed by as not being the right thing and the person will move on to keep trying to find what they expect to find somewhere lol.   


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: Red Arrow on March 19, 2014, 11:28:34 am
Is this it? http://174.78.158.38/hiwire?.a=iNextBusSelectStop&Geocode=-95961673.00000001;36022788&type=Landmark&locDetail=JENKS%20CENTER,%20E%20MAIN%20ST,%20JENKS,%2074037&landmarkType=undefined

That's the one with the link I  posted ending in vVh4w.   "Your" map doesn't show the stop by Mazzio's which actually has a bit of a shelter.  It also doesn't shot the stop which is almost to the RR tracks going eastbound on Main.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: AquaMan on March 19, 2014, 11:37:46 am
The lesson they need to learn is to reduce the wait time. I've stood in a bus shelter for 50 minutes before...I could have walked to my destination in that amount of time (41st and Yale to Downtown) but after 30 minutes I was commited.

I've also been less than a mile from my destination only to have the driver pull the bus over for a 15 minute smoke break.
Breaks should be scheduled to coincide with the arrival at Denver station.

Lots of people ride the buses and it seems like the ridership is increasing (at least based on my anecdotal observation). But you get the feeling that MTTA doesn't really care about their customers, they care more about their bureaucracy.


No doubt on time varies from route to route and driver to driver, but I have to say the ones I've used have been on time with knowledgeable, helpful drivers. When you see a bus sitting it is coincidental that the driver is smoking outside the bus. It means he is ahead of schedule and needs to park a few minutes to get back on sched. A good time to take a smoke break. Of course, he could have manufactured that smoke break. ;)

The units have gps, radio dispatching and really do try to be customer oriented. The interact with a wide range of demographics, drunks, hostile, families, mentals etc. Of the bus drivers I know, they are the most disciplined, the best skilled and trained. Most school bus, truck drivers and coach drivers can't do the job.


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: AquaMan on March 19, 2014, 11:46:15 am
Looks like the "Live Bus Tracker" is the best thing to use, but I don't like that the default is "not showing" the routes. 

The problem with the site imho, isn't that the info isn't there and can't be found, it's that it's not there in the usual manner one expects.  Great once you figure it out, but for someone from out of town or not used to the local network, they will automatically, first look for what they are used to, the kinds of maps you usually see in other cities, which is what I did, and possibly be frustrated after not finding it.  The live bus tracker is the closest feature having what other maps have, but even there it's not obvious at first glance and might be passed by as not being the right thing and the person will move on to keep trying to find what they expect to find somewhere lol.   

You no doubt travel or have travelled. The infuriating thing about my city is its arrogance, provincialism and overblown ego. I often hear people say things like, "Why don't we use the model Scandinavian countries use in their education model?", "Why don't we use the model for bus routes they use in Paris?", or "Why don't we use the recycling, trash pickup model they used in OKC?" as though success anywhere else matters to us! There is a feeling here that we don't need no outside interference in our problems especially if its from an area we compete with or has different politics. Mostly you just hear our leaders say things like, "Its different here in Tulsa...Northeast Ok....Oklahoma..."

Well, its not. Maybe its because we have such a high number of higher education graduates here. Nothing more irritating than a fresh MBA!


Title: Re: Tulsa's Transportation Model
Post by: AquaMan on March 19, 2014, 11:48:22 am
That's the one with the link I  posted ending in vVh4w.   "Your" map doesn't show the stop by Mazzio's which actually has a bit of a shelter.  It also doesn't shot the stop which is almost to the RR tracks going eastbound on Main.

Ok. If the bus passes by there, wave it down. You have some idea of its time by looking at its stops.

It looks like I am defending them but I really don't care. Just sharing my experience.  I'm sure they have room for improvement.