The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I was recently turned away from a bar for having an expired ID..... Granted, I understand it can be up to the discretion of a business to do as it wishes, but is it actually against the law in  to allow someone to drink in a bar with an expired license?  I have found other states seem to be clearer on the subject, Texas for example doesn't even say you technically have to ID or have an ID to drink... but if you turn out to be a minor you can get in trouble.  I have tried to scour the ABLE website but it doesn't actually say.

The closest I can come to finding anything is the following  paragraphs pulled directly from the ABLE site...

604. Sale of alcoholic beverages or low-point beer—Notice to employees
 1. Prohibits the sale or distribution of alcoholic beverages and low-point beer to any
person under twenty-one (21) years of age and the purchase or receipt of alcoholic
beverages and low-point beer by any person under twenty-one (21) years of age; and
 2. Requires that proof of age be demanded from a prospective purchaser or recipient
if an ordinary person would conclude on the basis of appearance that the prospective
purchaser or recipient may be under twenty-one (21) years of age.

That says I only have to demand proof of age to someone that I "think" looks under 21.  So if that was the case then it seems that having an expired ID wouldn't have even been an issue, or wouldn't all a bartender have to say is "well I thought he looked over 21" ?

Again I'm only talking if the person ACTUALLY is over 21.

But I can not find anywhere that says a patron actually has to have a Valid ID on them to be in a bar... All I see is that you have to be 21 to drink or be served.

Can anyone give me any further insight or point me to more concrete code?  One thing I really hate about this city and state is that laws are so fricken vague, this isn't the only thing that I've had problem finding information on.

Even if it is not a legal issue, it could also be an insurance issue.

I can't imagine it is illegal to be in a bar without ID. We would have to arrest all the girls doing lap dances while sipping on the $70 drink I bought them.

For $70 it better be large enough to go around a couple of times...   ;D

Showing your drivers license in a bar, even to police, is "voluntary" since there is no law specifically compelling it.
A bar can always exercise their discretion as to who to serve, but if they choose to serve someone with an expired license there are no criminal consequences if the license happens to be expired.

All a bartender is required to do is be reasonably certain you are over 21.  If a document shows you are over 21, that fact doesnt change just because the document is old, and they dont need to see it every time you walk in the door.
Im betting the management got some bad training from some roving state agency desperate to stay relevant (and funded).

If a driver's license is expired it is considered invalid, per ABLE. Bars and Liquor Stores both are instructed not to serve to expired licenses.

Feel free to post a picture of you-know-who here.

When I was in college, the scam was to use an upperclassman's expired DL if you looked close enough like them.

There's State Law. And then there's Smoot Law.

(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/23429772_BG3.jpg)

I was turned away from a bar in OKC a few years back for having a license that expired the day before.  Apparently the thirty day grace period doesn't apply to the ABLE laws.

Even more ridiculous, after attending a celebration downtown at Dilly Deli this spring a group decided to grab a beer at Arnie's.  The patriarch of the group, at the tender age of 76, was turned away from the bar because his DL was expired.  He doesn't drive any longer so he decided not to renew his license.  Now, that's a load of smoot!

Haven't had this happen to me personally, but have noticed in AZ, NV, CO, CA, OR, and WA that if your ID is expired you can't purchase alcohol or cigarettes in any of those states. I think New Mexico is the same, but haven't been there in six years.

20 years ago I was told to never take an expired ID.

I'd imagine this is still the way it is.

Fixed it for you.  The actual, real, written statutes require the bartender to verify age, but does not prescribe how.

I hate how vague the laws are in oklahoma on not just this but several things... It's pretty sad that I'll search for laws regarding different things for oklahoma, and in the search engines I find several other states pop up but NOT oklahoma because other states are much clearer on what I'll be looking for.

But I also can not find anywhere, in oklahoma, tulsa, or able laws that say you even technically have to have an ID on you to be in a bar drinking...  That one paragraph says to ask for proof if I think they appear under 21... but going by that if a 80 year old walked in to the bar and the bartender can reasonably assume he is 21 or older and serves him is he breaking the law?  Or same scenario, an officer comes in and asks him for an ID and he doesn't have it, can he get in trouble, can the bar get in trouble?... because based on what is written on the able PDF sheets you technically didn't have to even ID him based on his appearance.


And yeah patric, I'm trying to find those statutes, do you know where I can find them.  I personally love how clear texas is on the issue I found on the Texas TABC website that bascially you don't have to show an id, no one has to ask for one, and if a bar chooses to accept a signed letter from your grandma saying you are 21 that is fine.... AS LONG AS YOU REALLY ARE 21!  I love that, the law is you can't sell to someone under 21 and as long as you are sure that you are not serving to a minor that is fine by them.

Simple guide to laws in Oklahoma:

-If it seems like something that would make great sense and benefit many people, it's probably illegal.
-If it seems like something so out-of-step with the rest of the country, it's probably the law in Oklahoma.
-When in doubt about a law in Oklahoma, don't expect to be able to find a clear citation of it nor anyone in law enforcement who can agree what it means.

Finally, when you are tired of Oklahoma laws, reserve a U-Haul or call Bekins.  ;D

So damn true, not just on this issue I have the hardest time finding clear laws, when I ask "officials" I usually get parroted answers, if I ask where I can find things in writing I am usually told to call another department or office....

Since someone mentioned that ABLE considers an Expired Drivers License invalid, I'm trying to understand where that is written because that is not how I interpret what they say...

4. “Proof of age” means a driver license or a card issued for identification only
pursuant to Section 6-105 of Title 47 of the Oklahoma Statutes, or other generally
accepted means of identification that describes the individuals as twenty-one (21) years
of age or older and contains a photograph or other likeness of the individual and appears
on its face to be valid.

So it says a drivers license or ID card.... OR other generally accepted means of ID that contains age and a photo and APPEARS on its face to be valid. 
   
Everything about that paragraph to me indicates an Expired drivers license should be adequate to prove you are 21.  Even if an expired drivers license is no longer considered a drivers license it fully meets the requirements under the OR section, it contains the age and a photo and because it was once issued by the state, unless it was altered it can generally be assumed that the age did not change as any reasonable person would agree with... therefore on its "face" it "appears" to be a valid proof of age.  It doesn't say anywhere anything about expiration dates or anything else, and the very document I pulled that off is titled youth prevention to alcohol which I believe is meant to be the true spirit of the laws by keeping alcohol from minors and not splitting hairs over how that age is proven....


At any rate I believe if I were to ever get a ticket for some of the issues brought up in this thread and was not shown clearer statutes that I actually violated I would try to exercise my right to a jury trial.

And when you do so, be prepared for the judge to interpret the law, and then open your wallet and say "Take what's fair your honor."   ;)

He can interpret all he wants... but unless I'm mistaken, its the jury of my peers that decides if I'm willfully guilty or not and ultimately decides if I have to pay anything by saying guilty or not guilty.

Or am I mistaken?

Yes, in civil and criminal court a jury can decide if you are guilty or not guilty, but the judge will act on recommendations by the jury, or if their are applicable fines as set by state statute, the judge has the latitude to increase or decrease those amounts, as well as increase jail time. Also, in a criminal case, the judge can decide if sentences if there is more than one, be served concurrently (all at the same time) or consecutively (serve one, then the next, etc.). In a civil case, say arguing an expired ID or drivers license, I'd be willing to bet that there is no jury trial, and the judge will rule that if the drivers license or ID is expired, it is invalid for it's intended purpose and therefore invalid to be used.

Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
  Title 37. Intoxicating Liquors
    Chapter 2 - Low-Point Beer
      Minors
        Section 241 - Twenty-One (21) Years of Age Requirement
Cite as: O.S. §, __ __
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=78039


A. It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, barter, or give to any person under twenty-one (21) years of age any low-point beer, as defined in Section 163.2 of this title.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person who holds a license to sell and dispense low-point beer for consumption on the premises, or any agent, servant, or employee of said license holder, to permit any person under twenty-one (21) years of age to be admitted to or remain in a separate or enclosed bar area of the licensed premises, which has as its main purpose the selling or serving of low-point beer for consumption on the premises. The provisions of this section shall not prohibit persons under twenty-one (21) years of age from being admitted to an area which has as its main purpose some objective other than the sale or serving of low-point beer, in which sales or serving of said beverages are incidental to the main purpose, as long as persons under twenty-one (21) years of age are not sold or served said beverages; however, the incidental service of food in the bar area shall not exempt a licensee, agent, servant, or employee from the provisions of this section.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person who holds a license to sell and dispense low-point beer, for consumption on the premises, or any agent, servant or employee of said license holder to permit any person under twenty-one (21) years of age to consume any low-point beer on the licensed premises.

D. Any person violating the provisions of subsection A, B or C of this section shall upon conviction be guilty of a misdemeanor for a first violation and shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or imprisoned in the county jail for not more than one (1) year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Any person convicted of a second violation within one (1) year of the first violation shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not more than Two Thousand Five Hundred Dollars ($2,500.00), or imprisoned in the county jail for not more than one (1) year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Any person convicted of a third violation within one (1) year of the first violation shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Thousand Dollars ($5,000.00), or by imprisonment in the custody of the Department of Corrections for not more than five (5) years, or by both such fine and imprisonment. The filing of a supplemental information shall be subject to the discretion of the district attorney. One-half (1/2) of any fine collected shall be deposited in the Prevention of Youth Access to Alcohol Revolving Fund established by Section 608 of this title.

E. That the person demanded, was shown, and reasonably relied upon proof of age shall be a rebuttable presumption to any action brought pursuant to this section. A person cited for violating this section shall be deemed to have reasonably relied upon proof of age, and such person shall not be found guilty of such violation if:

1. The individual who purchased or received the low-point beer presented what a reasonable person would have believed was a driver license or other government-issued photo identification purporting to establish that the individual was twenty-one (21) years of age or older; or
2. The person cited for the violation confirmed the validity of the driver license or other government-issued photo identification presented by the individual by performing a transaction scan by means of a transaction scan device.

Provided, that this defense shall not relieve from liability any person cited for a violation of this section if such person failed to exercise reasonable diligence to determine whether the physical description and picture on the driver license or other government-issued photo identification was that of the individual who presented it. The availability of the defense described in this subsection does not affect the availability of any other defense under any other provision of law.

F. Upon violation of any of the provisions of this section by any agent, servant, or employee, the law enforcement agency shall notify the owner of the premises of the violation, the Oklahoma Tax Commission, and the district court clerk of the county in which the premises are located. For purposes of this subsection, notification to the owner of the premises shall be deemed given if the law enforcement agency mails, by mail with delivery confirmation, the notification to the address which is on file with the Oklahoma Tax Commission of the owner of the location at which the violation occurred and the law enforcement agency received delivery confirmation from the United States Postal Service.

G. Cities and towns may enact and municipal police officers may enforce ordinances prohibiting and penalizing conduct under the provisions of this section, but the provisions of the municipal ordinances shall be the same as provided for in this section, and the penalty provisions under such ordinances shall not be more stringent than those of this section and shall be limited to the provisions of Section 14-111 of Title 11 of the Oklahoma Statutes.


Short answer to the question :  No.
As for Smoot, he sucks from the same DPS teet as Trooper Martin, so
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While you're waiting on a jury trial, your bar is out of business because ABLE shut it down 3 months ago.

THANK YOU Vashta Nerada! I tried to find that and had no luck! And like you said, I interpret that to mean No as well. According to that as well, a bartender just has to reasonably be sure that a person is 21... any sane reasonable person would dare say that even though a ID might be expired it doesn't mean someone suddenly started getting younger!

I just want to say thank you again one more time... I love how I can ask police and call the police department and other city offices and ask where I can actually find laws and I get, I don't knows, try calling, blah blah blah. 

I might be more concerned about that if I actually owned a bar...

2. The person cited for the violation confirmed the validity of the driver license or other government-issued photo identification presented by the individual by performing a transaction scan by means of a transaction scan device.

In most every state, they will not recognize an expired drivers license or state ID. If it is expired, it is not valid, even if the description and the photo match the person holding it or assigned to it, if it is expired it does not matter, it's not valid/legal to use.

Tell you what, let your license/ID expire, or the tag on your car expire, and you can explain until you are blue in the face and pass out that it's who you are, it won't matter. It's expired, it is no longer valid, even if they swipe the magnetic strip on the back for a vericheck/very-id, if it is expired it's not valid. If it is not valid by state or federal law, you might as well use it as a coaster, or to level the table with a short leg.

A business that sells alcoholic beverages reserves the right to check that your ID is valid, mainly to protect themselves as they should to preserve there business and ABLE licenses, not only them but banks have the same right, as does any place that may ask for your ID for any transaction for using a check/credit/debit transaction, car rental, hotel room, tool rental at Lowes/Home Depot, hell even an employer wants a valid ID.......

Simple answer, keep your DL/ID, car info, insurance, tag, registration, current. You have ample time to take care of them regardless which state in the US that you live in.

You just have to call ABLE.

....as a drivers license.  You are correct.


But if you "presented what a reasonable person would have believed was a driver license or other government-issued photo identification purporting to establish that the individual was twenty-one (21) years of age or older"  in a bar, all it needs to do is satisfy the bartender that you are 21, according to the law.

For the purpose of ID in a bar, the law doesnt care if it's expired or not. 
You dont need a drivers license to be in a bar, and it is not a crime to walk the streets without your paperz.

If a bar is requiring an ID be current, or that you fit a dress code, that is entirely the bar's choice.

Tell that to Smoot. It cost me $500.00 in 1990 for someone in the bar where I worked that had an expired ID.

Expired does not equal valid, even if the description fits perfectly.

Care to share the bar name? This sounds like a classic Kenneth move.

After scouring everything related to the issue under title 37, it appears ABLE was created to uphold the laws of the State regarding intoxicating beverages, it was not created or given the power to make laws. An issue that has been argued  and upheld in appeals, etc....  This case here http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=42469 is a good read, it refers to a package store that sold to a minor, the state agreed ABLE over stepped its boundaries, you can read the specifics to that case there.  While it doesn't directly pertain to the issue we are talking about, it shows that ABLE is not infallible.... it is actually a very good read, I couldn't stop smiling while reading it.

After going through all the sections of Title 37 it can only be assumed the spirit of the laws were intended to keep alcohol from minors, not as much as splitting hairs about how that age was determined. 

The part of the law about not selling to minors was quoted above, so I won't re-quote that again.  But under Section 537 - Unlawful Acts it says...

A. No person shall:
1. Knowingly sell, deliver, or furnish alcoholic beverages to any person under twenty-one (21) years of age;

Later when reading more case laws and interpretations on the subject you realize KNOWINGLY becomes a big issue.  Nothing ever mentioned it being illegal or unlawful to knowingly sell alcohol to someone who is over 21....

Pulling a few points listed in the case I listed above I found...

¶14 Responsibility rests on the licensee to determine the age of the customer, but there must be some reasonable standard of diligence to bound his inquiry. Trader Jon, Inc. v. State Beverage Department, 119 So.2d 735 (Fla.App. 1960).

¶15 Although a licensee is not an insurer against minors acquiring alcoholic beverages through fraud and misrepresentation, he may not ignore the obvious and in an ostrich-like manner repudiate his responsibility.

¶16 The reasonable man rule must be applied. See 5501 Hollywood v. Department of Alcoholic Bev. Con., 155 Cal. App.2d 748, 318 P.2d 820, 824 (1957). There may be instances where the carelessness, imprudence, or failure to make due inquiry are of such a nature that licensee will be charged with notice and knowledge that the customer is a minor. Licensee should avoid the appearance of impropriety. Where the facts, circumstances, or appearance offer the slightest indicia of suspicion, the licensee should be alerted to question the customer, and make a deliberate effort to ascertain the age of his customer before any sale is consummated. If there is any doubt, the sale of alcoholic beverages must be refused.

That, to me, just seems like a fancy legal way of saying USE SOME DAMN COMMON SENSE. 16 says if there is any bit of suspicion that the sale should be refused.... Come on, would anyone with have a brain not agree that even though a drivers license might be expired in all reality the person probably did not some how become magically younger?  If the ID looks unaltered and matches the person I would not have the "slightest indicia of suspicion" that the person might not be 21.   

It does mention a drivers license can be used to prove that age, but it never mentioned anything about it being expired or anything like that.... Is expired milk not still milk? It may not be suitable for drinking, but it's still milk. An expired drivers license is still a drivers license, it may not be suitable for driving, but the word drivers license did not magically erase from the surface, and the way the oklahoma laws are written it still appears to be a valid means of verifying age.

And one more time pointing to the part that says   

1. The individual who purchased or received the low-point beer presented what a reasonable person would have believed was a driver license or other government-issued photo identification purporting to establish that the individual was twenty-one (21) years of age or older; or
2. The person cited for the violation confirmed the validity of the driver license or other government-issued photo identification presented by the individual by performing a transaction scan by means of a transaction scan device.

Again that says what a reasonable person would believe to establish the person was 21 years of age or older... A reasonable person could argue that an expired drivers license is invalid for driving... but could ANY REASONABLE PERSON believe that the persons age magically changed because the card expired? If you say yes to that, I have some news for you.... you are not reasonable.

In summary the Spirit and intention of the Oklahoma laws, that ABLE was created to uphold, appear intent on keeping alcohol away from minors....  The law clearly says  No person shall:
1. Knowingly sell, deliver, or furnish alcoholic beverages to any person under twenty-one (21) years of age;  But I can't find anywhere that says No person shall Unknowingly sell, deliver, or furnish alcoholic beverages to any person under twenty-one (21) years of age.


 

I'm sure it is long gone and you don't remember, but I would love to know what law or statute it specifically said you broke.  And further more, maybe I would have lost, but I would have fought it tooth-and-nail.

How old was the person, based on the ABLE rules would they reasonably be considered over 21 by appearance?  If so then according to the PDF on the website you wouldn't have to ID them, if that was the case how could you possibly know he had an expired ID on him if by the rules set forth in the ABLE pdfs you never even had to ask him to see it.


Also, just because an officer writes you a ticket, doesn't mean you broke the law... I can show you plenty of cases where officers wrote tickets for stuff that was later thrown out (search youtube for police violate and you will find MANY MANY cases).  

My main issue is everyone becomes parrots, they just quote what they've been told, no one ever does their own research.  (A quick example I'm sure anyone with Facebook can relate to is the massive amounts of fake stories, and other BS scare posts that are passed around as true.) If you can find that many people on YouTube that have been given bad tickets and and them dismissed, it makes me wonder how many people just accept invalid tickets as though the cop must be right and pay them.

Laws are meant to be written down as a basis of reference as to what is legally right and wrong... if you get a ticket it should be because you violated something in those laws, otherwise we are just living in a police state where a cop gives us a ticket and if you ask why its pretty much because he says so.  We become complacent and start letting manipulations of those laws, rights, and freedoms to take place with out demanding a set of checks and balances.  

Everyone parrots the commonly accepted rule that you have to have a non expired ID to be in a bar, but if you actually check the laws and scour them I see NOTHING that indicates that to be the intended Spirit of the laws.  It's just that way because that is what they were told....  

I also think it's interesting to note that in the laws it does list circumstances where you wouldn't get in trouble for selling to a minor....

But NO WHERE can I find a single law, under any circumstances, that it is illegal to sell alcohol to someone of age. (aside from the intoxicated and mentally unfit, but thats another story.)

(http://i.imgur.com/9MBwD9M.jpg)

"You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride"

Well, Smoot my pants!

I was talking to someone about not seeing any laws on the subject on the Oklahoma site, and he says, well what about Tulsa, cause everyone here knows it's illegal to be in a bar with out an ID...... Well, here is all I can find on Tulsa laws concerning the issue.    Per.... http://library.municode.com/HTML/14783/level3/TUCOOR_TIT27PECO_CH9INLI.html


Section 902. Possession of alcoholic beverage by a minor.permanent link to this piece of content

It shall be an offense for any person under the age of twenty-one (21) years to be in possession of any intoxicating alcoholic beverage in any public place. Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), excluding costs, and/or by imprisonment in the City jail for a period of not more than thirty (30) days.
Section 903. Misrepresentation of age.permanent link to this piece of content

Any person under twenty-one (21) years who shall misrepresent his age in writing or by presenting false documentation of age for the purpose of inducing any person to sell or serve him alcoholic beverage shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than Two Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), excluding costs.
Section 904. Consumption or possession of nonintoxicating alcoholic beverage in a public place by a person under twenty-one years of age.permanent link to this piece of content

It shall be an offense for any person under twenty-one (21) years of age to consume or possess with the intention to consume non-intoxicating alcoholic beverage or beer containing more than one-half of one percent (½ of 1%) of alcohol measured by volume and not more than three and two-tenths percent (3.2%) of alcohol measured by weight. Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), excluding costs, or by appropriate community service not to exceed twenty (20) hours. Provided, the provisions of this section shall not apply when such person is under the direct supervision of his parent or guardian, but in no instance shall this exception be interpreted to allow such person to consume such beverage in any place licensed to dispense non-intoxicating alcoholic beverage as provided in 37 O.S. § 163.11.
(Ord. Nos. 16462, 20184)




Nothing about actually having an ID on you in a bar....  And really the only thing it says is that it is illegal for a minor to attempt to misrepresent his age by presenting false documentation.  No where still have I found any law that says anything about it being illegal to drink over 21 years of age or for someone trying to represent his age by presenting false documentation.

Doolittles, was on North Sheridan, just north of Virgin. It's now part of Pryer Machine Tools property. The bar was owned by R&M Music company, the did not run it but they owned the building and equipment inside. Was a big hangout for Spartan Students, and some American and Douglas people.

To carlton and tulsacan, you can take it for what you want. I worked at Doolittle's on north Sheridan, and I worked at Speed's Billiards next to what was then Ernie Miller Pontiac in 1989/90 and 1991 respectively. When I worked at Doolittle's, one of the bands that played there was Betsy Smittle and Friends, Garth Brooks sister, played there and indirectly led to the downfall of Doolittle's, because  people labeled it as a "gay bar" because of the band. I also worked at Speed's Billiards when Willie Mosconi had a demonstration event there in 1991.

BTW, the business of Doolittle's could be bought in 1989 for ~$10,000.00 to $15,000.00 as it changed hands a couple of times from 1988 to 1989. The issue was that you bought the name. The building and the fixtures inside the building were owned by R&M Music Company, and the rent was around $3000.00 a month on the space and fixtures (not including utilities and the cost of dealing with Jarbo for the liquor, and Coors, Golden Eagle and the Miller brands). I looked into buying it with a partner, until we spoke with People's State Bank about the venture and were advised about the arrangement for the location.

Dback, I believe R & M had several places around town which were set up that way at least that’s what I was told at one point.  I was also told that R & M had connections to a certain Kansas City, uh, family.  Nod...nod...winkie...winkie...

Seems like they were also behind the video bar games which weren’t supposed to be gambling machines but were operated that way by some bar owners.

Makes me wonder whatever happened to Tim's Leather and Western bar?

I too was told R&M was a "family" business many years ago.

For those that remember, R&M owned most every pinball, video game, cigarette machine, and juke box in Tulsa back in the 60's to the 90's. Yeah, my banker gave me the impression that I was getting into a "family" business, and that I would be lucky to do a slightly better than break even business after the cost of running the business, and the rent and fees that R&M charged.

I can't speak to the "family" issue but the bars in VA Beach, VA in the 70s were mostly financed by the pinball/Pool table companies.  How much you financed was related to the cut the pinball/Pool table companies got.

When an I.D. is expired that means it's not valid, it's just like having no I.D. It's useless, worthless. I.D is needed for everything we do from check cashing to renting an apartment- The only time no I.D. is required is when we vote. Anyone can vote I.D or not.

Just got let out again?

You not only stop being you when your ID expires, you get younger.  Can we bottle this?

Apparently a Drivers License isnt even needed when you are sitting in your Beamer, stalking the mayor for a FOP-endorsed political foe:

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWSon6/PDF/1310/Taylor_Tracker.pdf

I never thought about that, but you can get ticketed for not having a drivers license on you while driving... but what about just sitting in your car (spying on people!)?

You sound like a parrot!

A DL or any ID is not needed  to vote. At least that's the case in many states.

Where do you live again?

http://www.ok.gov/elections/Candidates_&_Elections/Facts_about_Proof_of_Identity_for_Voting_in_Oklahoma/

They're having a fundraiser at 31st & Memorial tonight. From the Whirled:

Tulsa County Sheriff's Department, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol, the ABLE Commission, as well as the Tulsa Police Reserves, have been invited to assist with the event (roadblock), TPD reported.
The special enforcement crackdown is part of Oklahoma's "More Cops. More Stops" campaign meant to help save more lives on the state's roadways. Overtime funding is being provided by the Oklahoma Highway Safety Office.

EDIT to add:  From 10pm to 3am, the roadblock scored 10 arrests (mostly outstanding warrants but included marijuana possession, public drunk and at least one DUI) and 71 tickets written.

Went way under quota.  At one point they resorted to arresting the passengers of designated drivers.
What message do you think that sends?

Drink at home and stay inside.
 :(

Same one we send on so many other topics....

If the key is in the ignition you are operating a vehicle... I think that is how it goes down.

Last years numbers disappointed them, this year they set up outside the Casino in Coweta re-branded as "Endui" but I never heard any after-action reports.

At least they know how to spend money.

(http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/normantranscript.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/b3/0b3534cc-8fbc-11e4-a70d-13c1aafb00af/54a1f49c47363.image.jpg)

I'll tell ya what- If you have to ask the question, it's most likely illegal. It's best to err on the side of assuming it's illegal, because a bust can be very costly. Why go around with a expired DL anyhow, re-new the darn thing.

Yep, and even if it's on private land. Worse,  in some states you can actually get a DWI for  riding bike or a horse, in PA that is the case with riding a horse- unless they changed that law, because after all a horse won't go where it's dangerous to go. Yep, if the keys are in the heap you better not have any alcohol around or $$$$$ -it'll cost ya big time. BTW, those DWI check points are always  said to be a great success- if they catch nobody all night long  they say the DWI check point works because it keeps DWI drivers off the road- so it was a success. If the DWI check point makes a lot of arrests they say the check point was a success because they nabbed a lot of drinkers. Either way they have their bases covered.