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Talk About Tulsa => The Burbs => Topic started by: Gaspar on June 12, 2013, 09:29:03 am



Title: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Gaspar on June 12, 2013, 09:29:03 am
This could destroy some struggling businesses in Broken Arrow.
http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2013/06/12/06.12.13_Broken_Arrow_Food_Establishments_Water.pdf

TULSA, OK – [June 12, 2013] – Due to a substantial break in a main water line into Broken Arrow from
Pryor, the City Manager has declared a water emergency for all resident and business customers and
has issued a precautionary boil order which includes all food establishments that utilize City of Broken
Arrow Municipal Water supply.

Due to the volume of water needed to safely operate a restaurant, all food establishments that serve
open food must cease operations immediately until such time that the boil order has been lifted.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: patric on June 12, 2013, 12:44:37 pm
I blame terrorism, or Chloramine, (El Nino, Ninjas...)

Their water infrastructure does seem a bit fragile, considering the size of the municipality.
Maybe this should be a higher planning priority than starting a bunch of bars on the main drag.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Hoss on June 12, 2013, 12:57:37 pm
I blame terrorism, or Chloramine, (El Nino, Ninjas...)

Their water infrastructure does seem a bit fragile, considering the size of the municipality.
Maybe this should be a higher planning priority than starting a bunch of bars on the main drag.

Other BA locals on here might be able to chime in, but my brother who does live in BA said that the city is working on a new pipeline to Spavinaw.  Now, if that's the case, wouldn't BA essentially be back to where they were 20 years ago, and buying water from the City of Tulsa again (since the City owns Spavinaw Lake and all)?


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Gaspar on June 12, 2013, 01:23:00 pm
Holy bypass Batman!

BREAKING: Due to water line break and the resulting potential contamination in Broken Arrow, St. John Broken Arrow hospital is discontinuing operations until further notice. Patients currently receiving care at St. John Broken Arrow will be transferred to St. John Medical Center in Tulsa or St. John Owasso. (Via Press Release) Details on KRMG


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: DolfanBob on June 12, 2013, 02:18:24 pm
I live up East 71st and other than the toilets filling up a little slower. I haven't seen any differance in the water color or smell.
What are we avoiding that is in the water? I would rather not have to keep giving my pets Dasani.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Gaspar on June 12, 2013, 02:39:40 pm
I live up East 71st and other than the toilets filling up a little slower. I haven't seen any differance in the water color or smell.
What are we avoiding that is in the water? I would rather not have to keep giving my pets Dasani.

Nothing serious, just a few dead bodies in the lines.

JK

Would suck to be the city manager of BA this week.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: swake on June 12, 2013, 02:58:13 pm
Nothing serious, just a few dead bodies in the lines.

JK

Would suck to be the city manager of BA this week.

He's doing better than the City Manager and Vice Mayor in Owasso are doing with felony hot checks and DUIs.

(and what the he!! is a Vice Mayor?)


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Ed W on June 12, 2013, 03:24:24 pm
He's doing better than the City Manager and Vice Mayor in Owasso are doing with felony hot checks and DUIs.

(and what the he!! is a Vice Mayor?)

It's off topic, but here's what I've learned.

City manager Rodney Ray was arrested for passing a bad check for about $3000. This apparently happened nearly 3 years ago. The employees at the business identified him as having written the check. He claims the check was among those that were stolen. He filed a report to that effect about a year (?) after the fact. The police charged him with filing a false report.

Councilor Kelly was stopped on suspicion of DUI. He failed a field sobriety test and an officer placed him under arrest.  Immediately thereafter, another officer calls the first one aside and tells him to turn off his video recorder. Subsequently, Kelly was driven or escorted home. He never identified himself as a councilor, so the assumption is someone in police supervision realized who he was and made the call.  After watching the video, I have to say that it's doubtful I could pass a field sobriety test given my physical condition.

We return you now to our regular scheduled programming.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: patric on June 12, 2013, 03:53:06 pm
What are we avoiding that is in the water? I would rather not have to keep giving my pets Dasani.

When water that should be moving stops, it becomes stagnant and the disinfection peters out.



It's off topic, but here's what I've learned.
...another officer calls the first one aside and tells him to turn off his video recorder.

That's evidence tampering, which at the very least raises credibility flags.
If it were court-ordered monitoring, that could also possibly be considered contempt.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Red Arrow on June 12, 2013, 05:42:13 pm
I blame terrorism, or Chloramine, (El Nino, Ninjas...)

Their water infrastructure does seem a bit fragile, considering the size of the municipality.
Maybe this should be a higher planning priority than starting a bunch of bars on the main drag.

Judging from their tax on served drinks/beer, they need the bars to pay for the water improvements.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: davideinstein on June 14, 2013, 02:42:36 pm
Cost us thousands in sales on Wednesday. The city should have to reimburse us. Absolutely ridiculous. They called us at 10AM and shut us down. Then yesterday they would give us no information until the World tweeted we could open at 10:30AM! We pulled it off but ran out of bread once for a couple of minutes. Just an absolutely ridiculous situation.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Breadburner on June 19, 2013, 08:27:50 pm
Going to cost someone there job....What a love up...!!!


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: DolfanBob on June 20, 2013, 08:58:39 am
I put water out for the animals this morning and it is cloudy white. You cant even see the bottom of the bowl.  ???


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 20, 2013, 11:09:12 am
Cost us thousands in sales on Wednesday. The city should have to reimburse us. Absolutely ridiculous. They called us at 10AM and shut us down. Then yesterday they would give us no information until the World tweeted we could open at 10:30AM! We pulled it off but ran out of bread once for a couple of minutes. Just an absolutely ridiculous situation.


Better than costing you much more in sick customer lawsuits.  Count the blessings and move on....

Of course, you could put in a large reservoir system so you could be more self-contained...have your own water backup system for this type event.  But since this is the first one like this ever - widespread versus localized to neighborhood - it probably wouldn't be cost effective.

I drank a bunch of BA water over the weekend and some from RWD 4.  Both were fine.  Dolfan, cloudy is suspended air particles that will move out after a while - probably getting the results of the big chlorine shot they put into it.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2013, 11:10:26 am

Better than costing you much more in sick customer lawsuits.  Count the blessings and move on....

Of course, you could put in a large reservoir system so you could be more self-contained...have your own water backup system for this type event.  But since this is the first one like this ever - widespread versus localized to neighborhood - it probably wouldn't be cost effective.

I drank a bunch of BA water over the weekend and some from RWD 4.  Both were fine.  Dolfan, cloudy is suspended air particles that will move out after a while - probably getting the results of the big chlorine shot they put into it.


A back up water system could become a bacteria problem as well.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 20, 2013, 11:12:15 am
Whoever put the power on without shutting valves or going through a soft start procedure should have some issues.  But since they now have a 'newly trained' employee, it would be extremely stupid to get rid of him after this intensive training session.  The new guy would just make mistakes, and you got rid of the one who is now more experienced.



Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 20, 2013, 11:12:58 am
A back up water system could become a bacteria problem as well.


Absolutely!  It would have to be a full blown treatment/backup system....


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2013, 01:24:53 pm

Absolutely!  It would have to be a full blown treatment/backup system....


Costly.  Well beyond the budget of most small businesses.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: patric on June 20, 2013, 02:35:53 pm
Unless there is some ordinance specifically forbidding it, you might invest in the type of pressure holding tanks that people with well water use.

You draw your water from one end, while new water is being supplied from the other.
It works like a buffer, and being a closed system you still maintain the disinfection.

(http://ctgreenscene.typepad.com/.a/6a00e008d203b988340120a6ff0767970b-320wi)


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 20, 2013, 04:29:09 pm
Costly.  Well beyond the budget of most small businesses.


You are right - that was another one of those "tongue-in-cheek" things where the inflection is missing in text.  Even if someone had the cash laying around in a company, it would be irresponsible to do that.  Unless you get to the usage level of a small city.  Like a steel plant....seems like I remember the guys at Bethlehem Steel (Sparrows Point Maryland) telling me they had their own water system a few decades ago.   And the nuke I have been to had theirs...when/if it worked....which was all the time until a real emergency came along.




Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Red Arrow on June 20, 2013, 06:53:41 pm
Unless there is some ordinance specifically forbidding it, you might invest in the type of pressure holding tanks that people with well water use.

You draw your water from one end, while new water is being supplied from the other.
It works like a buffer, and being a closed system you still maintain the disinfection.

(http://ctgreenscene.typepad.com/.a/6a00e008d203b988340120a6ff0767970b-320wi)

That much water wouldn't last very long in restaurant.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: patric on June 20, 2013, 10:34:56 pm
That much water wouldn't last very long in restaurant.

You can connect more than one,

(http://www.notcatbar.com/images/well_plumbing.jpg)
(http://www.flexconind.com/slide_images/BaffleTank.png)

Or go big.

(http://www.aatanks.com/images/photos/surge-arrestor-tanks2.jpg)


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Red Arrow on June 21, 2013, 05:23:37 am
You can connect more than one,

(http://www.notcatbar.com/images/well_plumbing.jpg)
(http://www.flexconind.com/slide_images/BaffleTank.png)

Or go big.

(http://www.aatanks.com/images/photos/surge-arrestor-tanks2.jpg)

Your concept is correct.  The practicality is what I disagree with.

Edit:
The useful amount of water is typically about 1/3 to 1/4 of the actual tank size depending on the pressure range.  There are some numbers in the link below a few pages down.
http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellxtrol/MC10188_04_13_WellXtrol.pdf


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 24, 2013, 04:33:50 pm
Other BA locals on here might be able to chime in, but my brother who does live in BA said that the city is working on a new pipeline to Spavinaw.  Now, if that's the case, wouldn't BA essentially be back to where they were 20 years ago, and buying water from the City of Tulsa again (since the City owns Spavinaw Lake and all)?
BA's NEVER utilized Tulsa (even though it was offered at one time) as any more than a very limited emergency supply point and they are'nt going to Spavinaw. 

What they are doing is constructing a new inlet and treatment plant for treating water from an oxbow of the Navigatin Chanel.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 24, 2013, 04:37:04 pm
Your concept is correct.  The practicality is what I disagree with.

Edit:
The useful amount of water is typically about 1/3 to 1/4 of the actual tank size depending on the pressure range.  There are some numbers in the link below a few pages down.
http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellxtrol/MC10188_04_13_WellXtrol.pdf

That's the typical approach but for a 36-inch diameter line the tank will be more like 12'-14' in diameter and 30-40 feet long (that's about the size of the one on the Skiatook system serving Sand Springs and Sapulpa + a remote surge fill tank.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 24, 2013, 04:38:36 pm

Absolutely!  It would have to be a full blown treatment/backup system....

BA has a back-up treatment system of sorts with their old plant also running in addition to the Mid-America line.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 24, 2013, 04:52:56 pm
Whoever put the power on without shutting valves or going through a soft start procedure should have some issues.  But since they now have a 'newly trained' employee, it would be extremely stupid to get rid of him after this intensive training session.  The new guy would just make mistakes, and you got rid of the one who is now more experienced.


I worked on the BA system when it was originally constructed (36" line with pump stations on each end) in the early 80's and it had limited surge protection.  I understand the systems pumps were increased many years later without adding a significant surge system.  From having operated such systems (including the Skiatook system) my guess is when the power went off, the water colum in the line seperated and started a back and forth surge, this alone could have burst the line and if the surge didn't have time to arrest itself (possibly several hours if the system was really cranking) and if the pumps we're restarted before then and the restarted water column met an un-moving, or worse, a retreating water column, BOOM!  Time for new parts and a boil order.   


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Red Arrow on June 24, 2013, 05:17:57 pm
That's the typical approach but for a 36-inch diameter line the tank will be more like 12'-14' in diameter and 30-40 feet long (that's about the size of the one on the Skiatook system serving Sand Springs and Sapulpa + a remote surge fill tank.

Is that really practical for a mom and pop restaurant though?  

Edit:
Go back to Reply #10 and the responses to that. 


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Red Arrow on June 24, 2013, 06:14:09 pm
Cost us thousands in sales on Wednesday. The city should have to reimburse us. Absolutely ridiculous. They called us at 10AM and shut us down. Then yesterday they would give us no information until the World tweeted we could open at 10:30AM! We pulled it off but ran out of bread once for a couple of minutes. Just an absolutely ridiculous situation.

What is an average day's water usage for one of your restaurants?


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 24, 2013, 06:27:26 pm
I worked on the BA system when it was originally constructed (36" line with pump stations on each end) in the early 80's and it had limited surge protection.  I understand the systems pumps were increased many years later without adding a significant surge system.  From having operated such systems (including the Skiatook system) my guess is when the power went off, the water colum in the line seperated and started a back and forth surge, this alone could have burst the line and if the surge didn't have time to arrest itself (possibly several hours if the system was really cranking) and if the pumps we're restarted before then and the restarted water column met an un-moving, or worse, a retreating water column, BOOM!  Time for new parts and a boil order.   


Systems get those surges at start up, too.  I worked on a 48" line in Alburquerque once that had a fluctuation in the chart recording (long ago).  Turned out the pumps connected to a straight line that ran about 5 miles to the storage tank up on a small hill.  As the power on impulse traveled down the line, it hit the turn up to the tank, and set up a standing wave that would continue for two and three days - just never stopped... even with changes in flow rates.  

They need soft starts.  Or better yet, VFD's!  Actually, I can't imagine a system of that size not already having that.  Surely they wouldn't be running like that now??






Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: patric on July 11, 2013, 12:12:14 pm
Here we go again:



http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Broken-Arrow-declares-water-emergency-after-water/_8WyFosg9UWJjqV5zeZ96Q.cspx

Broken Arrow city officials say due to a break in a 24-inch water line near the intersection of 9th and Kenosha, the Acting City Manager declared a water emergency for all residents and business customers.

A mandatory water rationing order is in place. The line that broke is one year old.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: DolfanBob on July 11, 2013, 01:06:14 pm
Yep. We got the automated call here at work letting us know.
I'll take this over the electric going out at the Mrs work yesterday on Sheridan.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Red Arrow on July 11, 2013, 07:46:49 pm
Yep. We got the automated call here at work letting us know.
I'll take this over the electric going out at the Mrs work yesterday on Sheridan.

That would be a tough choice.  No toilets or no air conditioning AND no lights in the rest room.


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: Red Arrow on July 11, 2013, 07:51:04 pm
Here we go again:



http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Broken-Arrow-declares-water-emergency-after-water/_8WyFosg9UWJjqV5zeZ96Q.cspx

Broken Arrow city officials say due to a break in a 24-inch water line near the intersection of 9th and Kenosha, the Acting City Manager declared a water emergency for all residents and business customers.

A mandatory water rationing order is in place. The line that broke is one year old.


Is the pipe breaking or the welds?  They didn't really say.

Cheap pipe or bad welders?


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: patric on July 11, 2013, 10:08:47 pm
Is the pipe breaking or the welds?  They didn't really say.
Cheap pipe or bad welders?

A one-year-old PVC pipe burst.

They are working quickly to complete a new pipe to Tulsa, so that instead of BA water blowing through their sieve it will be Tulsa water blowing through their sieve.
Im sure we wont mind rationing our water to help our third-world neighbors to the southeast.   >:(


That would be a tough choice.  No toilets or no air conditioning AND no lights in the rest room.

AEP is also being very tight-lipped about the rash of power failures throughout the area. 


Title: Re: Broken Arrow Water Supply
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 12, 2013, 08:27:52 am
A one-year-old PVC pipe burst.

They are working quickly to complete a new pipe to Tulsa, so that instead of BA water blowing through their sieve it will be Tulsa water blowing through their sieve.
Im sure we wont mind rationing our water to help our third-world neighbors to the southeast.   >:(


AEP is also being very tight-lipped about the rash of power failures throughout the area.  


I was out there a few times over the last two years and that line - or part of it - goes north/south along 9th (Lynn Lane) for several miles.  That is a very thick, heavy wall PVC - about 1" thick - should be good for a few hundred psi.  Sounds like the installation either had issues or the earth shifted some.  The ends are an O-ring socket, slip joint (not welded).