The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Saw this on fb... looks like a great concept.

"A couple of links to a fundraising campaign for an awesome new biodiesel shuttle service that will soon be running at night in DT/18th & Boston Bar Loop...
Kick in and get some great perks!

http://igg.me/p/173661?a=882167
http://www.gofundme.com/wkcwo"


Nerd-alert: Looks like they bought a Chance RT52 which was the model bus used in the old Wiki-Wiki Shuttle in Honolulu Airport that Ward Cunningham used as his inspiration for the name "Wikipedia"

Bigger nerd alert:
Ward Cunningham doesn't/didn't have anything to do with wikipedia.   Wikipedia is a wiki (a site where users can add/modify content).   Ward Cunningham invented the wiki.

"Wiki" (pronounced [ˈwiti] or [ˈviti]) is a Hawaiian word meaning "fast" or "quick"

Touché. I got that from Wikipedia. Ironic.

A downtown shuttle that runs at night-time only. As smart an idea as "lunch only" restaurants in downtown. Not to mention, this had been tried and failed before.

You've got to start somewhere...
In any sutuation, I hate the argument that, "it failed before so it can't possibly work now."
Perhaps, it wasn't done correctly and that's why it failed?
If they can mitigate a significant portion of the recurring costs (i.e. fuel), it might be economically viable.

And if he'd named it touché, it would be called touchépedia instead. ;)

And if a certain clown had started it, it would be called douchepidia.

If I started it, I would have called it Mike-ipedia. That is my nickname at trivia nights.

Ooh...have to register that quick: douchepidia.com.org

.us.gov.me.you.tv

The reason I never rode the previous incarnation of the bar district bus was a lack of information. No schedules. No way to indicate whether it was still in business. No way of knowing if the operator had gotten sick and taken the weekend off.

Nobody's gonna ride any form of transit if they don't know if/when the next one is coming.

What troubles me about the viability is this:


Perhaps bar owners and restauranteurs (yes, I noted the thanks to the folks at the Merc for contributions) would do well to contribute to the venture.  The only other viability issue I see is what the demand is going from venue to venue if someone doesn’t live downtown.  That would be really the only two uses for it: residents of downtown going out or someone going from place to place.  How many people does that appeal to?  I know in the past we would take Lund’s trolley from dinner or drinks before a show somewhere else, but that’s a rare occurrence for me.

They probably won't ride if they have to wait too long either.

This is also the chicken/egg situation.  If we got rid of a lot of surface parking, a shuttle/circulator bus or trolley would be used.  We can't get rid of the surface parking (as much as we should) until there is circulator transit to get around. 

Thats where the idea of, instead of spending millions on new parking garages, we instead put the money towards a downtown circulator route.  No the route won't be used all the time and there will be times when the bus is empty, but the same thing holds true with parking garages.

1. Determine a dedicated route and put it on maps around downtown.
2. Have unique looking bus shelters/stops on the route that also act as info centers for times of operation and amount of time before bus arrives.
3. Make the bus readily identifiable and distinct looking.
4. Promotional/awareness campaign on radio, tv and signage around town.  (which would also act to promote downtown in general)

The above act similarly to rail in that your showing through the investment in the  "infrastructure" of shelters/stops, signage, unique busses, etc.  that your serious about transit.  This would help alleviate the desire for more parking downtown and would free up developers from having to put in as much, or any, parking as they would otherwise thus making all types of development downtown more affordable to build, rent and sell.  This begins to allow for more true, pedestrian/transit friendly density and begins to bend the parking demand growth curve downward and transit demand growth curve up.

Make sure this circulator route crosses over your other, already identified, future dedicated transit routes, like the the tracks (connected to our new multimodal bridge over the river) to allow for gradual expansion and even possible future upgrades to sections of rail.  

This can't work efficiently in isolation.  We need to also begin to develop (through zoning and implementation of the Comprehensive Plan) other pedestrian/transit friendly nodes around the city (Cherry Street,Utica Square area, Brookside, Whittier Square area, Pearl District, etc.).  This will greatly enhance the urban experience in that your getting far more people within easy walking/biking distance of transit and thus every other district and downtown.  One should eventually be able to live in, work in, shop in, visit, any of these areas, including downtown, and be able to quickly get to all the others on readily identifiable routes.  What this does is allow for further density in all those areas.  A person can live in urban housing of all sorts, that has very little or no parking, for their "accessible world" for shopping, dining, working, play, etc. includes every other area.  You increase the number of people in all areas that don't need or use cars as much, and don't need or use parking as much.  You also will begin to see other businesses and ideas pop up like shared cars, quick rent cars, etc. Private pedicabs and jitneys will become more common etc.  

No more parking garages downtown, instead put in the starter bus route and begin to bend the curve, up on pedestrian/transit friendly growth, and down on car dependent growth.  

Well now wait.  Why not have a few parking garages on the perimeter of downtown with circulator stops at each one?  We are light years away from having rail from Jenks, BA, or Owasso yet a downtown circulator would be practical right away.  The sooner we could get rid of the need for all the surface parking in downtown, the sooner more residential and retail development can happen.  Right off the BA between Detroit and Cincinnati would be ideal and then somewhere off the north leg of the IDL as yet another.  Incorporate major bus interchanges at each garage for those who ride the bus downtown.

I have to think outside my box and realize not everyone thinks a 15 minute walk is short or that riding 20 miles on a bike doing errands on Saturday morning is a fun jaunt.  I think if you can offer a few convenient parking outposts then a shuttle route which minimizes walking distance, that would be the best starting point.

I think Tulsa Transit needs some sort of transformation to make it appeal more to a broader spectrum of riders.  A friend of mine who is in the PR business was working on a potential project a few years ago for TT trying to “upgrade” the image of the bus system.  They are aware that most people view the system as being only for the handicapped or the poor.  I think people who have not ridden the system are convinced they will be seated next to a hobo swilling MD-20/20 if they get on a bus.  I don’t know how you change that perception other than through a very strong promotional effort and offering convenient and timely routes through all parts of Tulsa.

Implementing an effective and successful (really the same thing) circulator system is going to require a real leap of faith by Tulsa.  Essentially, we have to go all in and buy enough buses/trolleys, etc. to offer frequent and reliable service over long periods of times.  Anything more than a 10 minute wait between buses will not work.  Even then it will take time to get people to use it in sufficient numbers to make a real difference in parking needs, etc.  That is going to be expensive and I doubt any private company or group voluntarily subsidized by some restaurant and bar owners can raise the capital to start or continue to operate such a system for very long. (This is one of the reason I think Vision 2 locking up available sales tax $ until 2029 is such a bad idea because that is the kind of funding that will be needed to get something like this started).

Alternataively, Tulsa could implement a part-time circulator system in downtown on nights when there are BOK shows, downtown festivals or other events that will draw a crowd.  We could use existing city buses (when few city buses are running regular routes) and run a downtown circulator loop from 5:30 - 11:00 or whatever makes sense.  While this would still cost money, it would involve a much smaller investment than developing a system from scratch with its own buses, etc.  It could essentially operate as a test to see if Tulsans will actually "park and ride" for downtown events and could pave the way for a larger specifically dedicated system that could expand beyond downtown.

I wish this new venture well, but it does not sound promising.  One used bio-diesel burning bus is not going to provide enough coverage to make this work.

There was a downtown circulator on BOK event nights when the arena first opened, but only for the larger concerts.

I just tried visiting the Tulsa Transit site to see if it still existed. Their site redesign has me unable to find the simple routes/schedules page without using a trip planner or downloading the entire book of route maps/schedules.

I love this project, but am skeptical on it's sustainability.

Buses just cost a lot of money and fares can't cover the cost. Advertising helps, but advertising on broken down buses won't.

A glance at Tulsa Transit expenses are fascinating. They operate 63 buses. They have operating expenses of $19.6 million ($311,000 per bus). Fares only bring in $2.4 million and advertising brings in $600,000 a year (combined they equal $47,600 per year per bus).

Each bus needs a subsidy of $263,000 a year.

Luckily, the feds kick in $8.8 million, the city kicks in $5.8 million and the state $1.2 million. For every dollar made from riders and advertisers, somebody else pays $5.50.

I am just not sure a private funded bus system can last.

All that being said, I want to help. I can help with the bio-diesel part and would certainly consider advertising.

I wish them well too but having only one vehicle for regularly scheduled service will be marginal.

So about 300,000 per year for a bus.  Is that a large or small bus and would that make any difference?  Just a few small shuttles during most times would be perfectly adequate, larger busses perhaps during events, until you build up ridership.

I would think 2 small busses to start out with downtown making a "circulator route" (perhaps 3 during busy times) would get you a short enough wait time.

Now compare that to the millions of all the planned/asked for parking garages that have and will keep cropping up. 5 mill here, 10 mill there, 3 mill on another, etc.  And it seems to me that using the parking we already have better with those busses would be quite competitive cost wise and would over time enhance the economic base by allowing developments to be cheaper (not having to have as much parking) and allowing better use of space downtown with more living, shopping, business etc. in areas that would otherwise be taken up by parking.  

Again, I will go downtown and see plenty of parking garages and parking lots sitting empty except for perhaps large events like Mayfest and then shuttles from Mall parking like the Promenade, or ORU, West Bank, Fin Tube, and other places can come into play.  But those are exceptional occasions.  The garage there at 6th and Boston for instance is empty every evening. I know because I use it and even during concert nights or busy friday and saturday nights in the Blue Dome or Brady Arts Districts, there may be perhaps 3 or 4 cars in it, and  there are other parking garages that are empty most evenings as well, and then all those parking spaces around the churches, etc. during those times.  Heck even the ones by the Arena sit empty or not completely full a lot of the time.  Then there are the parking spaces by TCC and the churches during certain times and days, OSU Tulsa, etc.  Plus there will be more parking built downtown regardless.  So what I am saying is There is already pleeeenty of parking, and you could draw a bus route that would put you either right by, or within one or two blocks of a HUGE amount of it.  As for building more parking garages on the edge of downtown first, why do that when we arent even adequately utilizing the parking that is already closer in?

The numbers I have seen, probably from www.lightrailnow.org , indicate that most people are willing to walk about 1/4 mile to and from public transit.

Do the circulator route similar to what I have described before and you would be within a one minute (two max) walk (one or two blocks, 3 max) of most downtown parking (much of which sits unused during most times) and every destination like the, Deco District, the Arena, Ballpark, Brady Arts District, Blue Dome and more.  

How about the unmanned (but monitored remotely) system like so many airports have - closed loop shuttle cars that go around that circulator.  Several sets of cars around the loop, so no wait more than a few minutes.  Miss this one, catch the next in 3 (or 5) minutes....

Can use tires or solid wheels/rails - not sure which would be best (rail if guessing).

That may be true nationwide, but this is Tulsa.  I'd bet that most Tulsans (especially of the suburban type) would not be willing to walk 1/4 of a football field for public transit.  This town was built for cars.  People are addicted to them.  I am skeptical that public transportation can ever be successful around here.  If someone has done a study and thinks they can succeed, I'd support it, even if it asked for some seed money from taxpayers.  But I'd be against any large scale tax investments into it because I just don't see it ever being genuinely successful in Tulsa.  I'd love to be proven wrong.   

I'm also not sure what use a shuttle that just circles downtown would be.  People will still be driving into downtown and parking in a garage or surface lot.  The longest distance between current venues would probably be BOK Center to McNellies.  I don't see why someone would need a bus to get that distance.  A shuttle that circles through downtown isn't going to change the minds of people who are hostile to parking and walking downtown.  They will be staying in the suburbs anyway or leaving the second the BOK concert is over to drive straight home.

It seems apparent that even a relatively small downtown circulator system is going to be very expensive with no assurance that Tulsans will use it sufficiently to make any meaningful difference.  Artist's point about spending money on parking garages is a good one, but most everyone understands what we get for our $10 million - more parking next to somewhere we want to go.  Many Tulsans simply cannot wrap their heads around what would amount to millions in annual subsidies to operate a downtown circulator system.  Anything we can do to introduce the concept on smaller and less expensive way to allow people to test it out and potentially develop a core of users is probably the only way we can ever build support for spending the money necessary to develop something more substantial.

Maybe?..

http://www.ok.gov/strongandhealthy/Obesity/index.html (http://www.ok.gov/strongandhealthy/Obesity/index.html)

Most Tulsans don't recognize they walk over a quarter mile just to get inside Woodland Hills Mall.  Not counting the walk from end to the other.  There is a reason the old folks exercise in malls...

A downtown circulator won’t necessarily cost as much as the other transit lines which may operate with 25 to 50% occupancy over much longer routes all over the city.  I wouldn’t rely on the Tulsa Transit numbers Recycle posted as a clear indicator of what a circulator would cost to operate at peak times.  Have them available at the largest potential density hours and it’s also shorter routes than what the suburban routes are.

Heated in the winter, air conditioned in the summer, food court nearby.

There is most likely a threshold size below which you are guaranteed to fail.

I haven't been to the big airports lately but the last remote shuttle cars I saw were the equivalent of grade separated.  If you need to pay a remote observer/operator, you might as well have them on board.

Can anyone find out how much it costs the car rental companies and places line Fines Parking to operate their shuttles.  That might be a good size starter bus for a circulator.

BINGO!

I think people would be more amenable to Tulsa Transit's short buses. It would be interesting to see a comparison of operating costs. I'd rather we just lay some damn track in the middle of some of the one ways and put in a real trolley. Buses generate less surrounding investment because they can be rerouted.

+1

I do think people would be more likely to wait for a trolley/streetcar. The ones in Memphis are slow and not that frequent, but pretty full when I ride them.

I guess I'm not the target market, but I can't really foresee a time when I'd wait for a bus from one side of downtown to the other, short of extremely inclement weather. It's a 10-15 minute walk. If you're doing any waiting for a bus, your trip will take longer than that.

FWIW, I moved my son into the dorms at OU this past week. There were plenty of parking lots but they were all full! I vultured a lane of parking and waited for someone to leave. I noticed that there were several old Trolley style rubber wheeled, diesel shuttles operating continuously from the lots and all of them were filled with waiting lines for the next one. Truth is, none of the parking lots were more than a couple blocks away and easily walked. A few coach buses were also operating, presumably from outlying areas.

People are attracted to the different styled rubber wheeled trolleys. They are uncomfortable, noxious and noisy but still, people wait in line for them. I think people would be more likely to jump on a real, railed trolley than any thing MTTA would offer. JMO.

I believe people would be more likely to ride a (real) trolley too and have been trying to make that point on TNF for about 4 years.


I grew up around trolleys near Phila, PA ( http://goo.gl/maps/15OWv) but got re-introduced to them at a convention in Memphis in 2007.  I also saw the Little Rock, AR trolley on the way back from Memphis but the folks I was with were more interested in seeing the Clinton Library so I didn't get to ride in Little Rock.


I am similar but might not need extremely inclement weather depending on the destination and what I would be doing there.  All else being equal, I would be more likely to take a trolley than a bus.  

My memories of moving in and out of the dorm involved carrying a bunch of stuff, more than I would want to carry a couple of blocks.  Without stuff to carry, I would most likely walk a few blocks unless the shuttle just happened to be there at the right time.

People are initially attracted to the trolley styled buses and some places have tried to use them without success to predict the ridership of a real trolley.  Something people forget, while in the nostalgia mode, is that the really early 20th century trolleys were not all that comfortable and frequently did not ride all that nicely.  Some of that had to do with maintenance of the trolley cars and the track but the basic design needed improvement to compete with buses.  That led to the development of the PCC trolleys which ran in some cities from the late 30s to the early 80s.  Not a bad run for a design.

Edit: add link
http://sacramentohistory.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-isand-isnta-trolley.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCC_streetcar

It was an easy move in. There were lots of young people in blue or yellow colored t-shirts that were offering to carry your stuff to the dorms and of course there were dolly carts that could be checked out. The kids were mostly volunteer upper classmen from area churches and were quite friendly. They made a quick presentation about youth activities in their church organizations without any pressure. Just really made it pleasant.

They even directed people to different lines for the elevators by floor. I chatted with one young man who told me he was a business management major. I relayed to him that was the one degree I told my son I would not fund. He said, "Absolutely understand. I am Pre-Med. I only want the degree to be able to manage my practice."

From your posts, I understand that.  There has to be a few other degrees you might try to talk him out of though.

Pretty much left the others to his usually reliable decision-making process. He has interest in film, sports management and psychology. First courses are Calculus, Spanish, Physics and a couple of laughers.

He knows that if he made a compelling argument for a business degree I would relent. I just don't think its a good final degree without some purpose (like managing your own medical practice or pre-law).

If I were going clear across downtown, say from the Doubletree to the ballpark, I'd probably try to walk along the route of a bus and get on if/when it came by (so long as I wasn't already almost there, anyway). But yes, I think it would be more useful to take people between the various DT venues, Cherry Street, and possibly Brookside in a streetcar/trolley type thing. Portland paid around $13 million per track mile, not including the cost of the rolling stock itself.

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/development_200804_report.pdf

With a decent circulator downtown and in the nearby areas, it would be a lot easier to get people to refrain from driving their cars all the way in, thus reducing the need for parking. And, if it actually works that way, be a fairly strong indication that rail from the suburbs has a decent chance of working.

The only sad thing is that I'd find it hard to justify running a trolley up Boston Ave, even though it would make for some iconic pictures with the BOk Tower in the background and the urban canyon north of 6th or so to either side.

Ohhhhh, noooooooo....not OU!!!

Sadness of epic scale.


Well,while you are trying to talk him out of stuff - engineering is a top candidate to be talked out of.  Wouldn't wish it on my kids, ever....but they did it anyway....

We seem to be a generation that is unhappy with our choices in life. Big boost for therapists.

My son, my last born son, has accumulated lots of life experiences from work, church, volunteerism, travel, friends and family. He has great perseverance, focus and a good attitude. Its hard to see him go. Probably a soft sciences guy.

Anyway, what ever happened to your bus RV conversion project? I think I saw the bus this Bio-Diesel Shuttle project has in mind on C-list. I so want to warn him against it until he talks to someone intimately involved with a fleet. Those buses can be a nightmare to keep operable unless they have someone familiar with their idiosyncrasies.

I have been very happy in the work as an engineer - it is the financial rewards part that is lacking.  Goes to our discussions elsewhere about the rugged individualist who built his company "all by himself" - except for those guys who got the patents for him on the equipment that brings in millions per year in revenue - to this day!   And the reward is "layoff".  But the "rugged individualist" who "made it all happen" is still "clipping coupons" on that here in town.  And except for that one little aspect, the company is a very good one that comes close to treating people well and where I still have good friends. 


Bus is very slow moving right now.  Have friends with buses - it is amazing how many of 'those kind of people' are out there - and when the current work/travel commotion slows, it will be the next big project I get going.  Trying to finish some smaller projects now to get onto that.  (Have a travel trailer I am putting a new roof on right now - bigger and more liveable than the current one we use for vacation, etc.)  Still gotta get that sawmill so can make the internal cabinetry, etc....

Does it sound like my life is too full of commotion?  Does to me....

1970's song..."Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy".

Oooppssss...too late....