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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 09:50:08 am



Title: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 09:50:08 am
When the topic of converting one-way streets to two-way, there's always a comment made about needing the one way streets for the on- and off-ramps to the Inner Dispersal Loop. I completely disagree, and have spent some time working on a map to show how it's possible to make Cincinnati and Detroit two-way streets, as an example. There are some trickier areas like E. 8th Street, but there's always a workable solution. That'll be my next project.

What I've put together in the map below isn't groundbreaking, but it eliminates those supposed barriers to converting our downtown streets. It will also allow us to remove the center lane (reducing them from 5 lanes to 4) and adding a center median with trees and decorative lights. It really has to be visualized for people to see that it's possible, so without further ado:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8015/7139135653_726197af17_b.jpg)


Thoughts?


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: AquaMan on May 03, 2012, 09:55:55 am
And what is the great benefit for eliminating the one way streets near the IDL? I guess I don't clearly see the problem that the solution addresses.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: rdj on May 03, 2012, 10:10:03 am
How do you handle where Detroit/Cincinnati merge past Standpipe Hill?


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 10:13:30 am
And what is the great benefit for eliminating the one way streets near the IDL? I guess I don't clearly see the problem that the solution addresses.

These areas are often cited as reasons why we can't convert more streets in the rest of downtown. "Well, we can't do Cincinnati or Detroit, we can't do E. 2nd Street or 8th Street", and it leaves downtown with its current mix of one-way and two-way streets that confuses out-of-town drivers (not just the suburbanites, but the OKCers, Kansas Citians, Wichitans, etc. as well. Some downtown business owners have indicated the one-way streets have deterred their own existing clientele. And we all know the problems associated with one-way streets: encouraging higher speeds, making it more dangerous for pedestrians, which in turn makes the area less walkable, etc.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 10:15:31 am
How do you handle where Detroit/Cincinnati merge past Standpipe Hill?

Installing traffic signals would be the easiest way to handle it, but a more creative solution would be the installation of a roundabout.

Edit: There'd have to be some lane modifications on Cincinnati. Let me work on it and I'll post another map later.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: AquaMan on May 03, 2012, 10:57:57 am
These areas are often cited as reasons why we can't convert more streets in the rest of downtown. "Well, we can't do Cincinnati or Detroit, we can't do E. 2nd Street or 8th Street", and it leaves downtown with its current mix of one-way and two-way streets that confuses out-of-town drivers (not just the suburbanites, but the OKCers, Kansas Citians, Wichitans, etc. as well. Some downtown business owners have indicated the one-way streets have deterred their own existing clientele. And we all know the problems associated with one-way streets: encouraging higher speeds, making it more dangerous for pedestrians, which in turn makes the area less walkable, etc.

Fair enough. I'm of the opinion then, that if it is a nuisance and no one likes it, change to two way and deal with a more solvable group of problems. Is it city engineering that is hesitant to change them?


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: carltonplace on May 03, 2012, 11:11:21 am
I would be happy if we made everything two way, but I'm OK if Cincy and Detroit continue as they are. The one way situation on these streets from 244 to 51 does help the commuters get out of Dodge quickly.

Everything else, Main, Boulder, Cheyenne, 1st, 2nd, 5th 6th and 7th need to be converted to two-way.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 11:14:58 am
I would be happy if we made everything two way, but I'm OK if Cincy and Detroit continue as they are. The one way situation on these streets from 244 to 51 does help the commuters get out of Dodge quickly.

Isn't that something we'd like to slow down? Converting these to two-way isn't going to create traffic jams, it'll help slow down the traffic. I've often been on Detroit at 5:05 p.m. and though people are going 45-50 mph (which is dangerous enough), it's not congested at all. In fact, it's pretty sparse. And we also have entrances to the IDL on all sides of downtown, so I doubt this is going to bottleneck anything.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: DTowner on May 03, 2012, 11:16:38 am
I've never understood the complaint that one-way streets confuse visitors.  Every good downtown I have visited had one-way streets.  Are our visitors uniquely stupid and easily confused?  If we leave the IDL entry/exists as one-way, aren't we just talking about 1st & 2nd, Cincinnati & Detroit, and 7th & 8th?  Maybe we just need better signage on the one-way streets we keep.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: custosnox on May 03, 2012, 11:17:09 am
I like the idea of keeping some of the one ways, reducing them down to two, maybe three lanes, widening the sidewalks and putting in real bike lanes.  


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: Townsend on May 03, 2012, 11:25:17 am
 Are our visitors uniquely stupid and easily confused?

Most of the DT visitors are from areas just outside Tulsa.  Perhaps?


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: Townsend on May 03, 2012, 11:25:35 am
I like the idea of keeping some of the one ways, reducing them down to two, maybe three lanes, widening the sidewalks and putting in real bike lanes.  

Harumph


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: jacobi on May 03, 2012, 11:47:59 am
I miss the one ways.  I really couldn't be bothered that some tourist from 91st and yale is scared by the one ways and potential for seeing a "negro".  They should have left the one ways the way they were and left Bartlett Square /Rant


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: AquaMan on May 03, 2012, 12:03:22 pm
They weren't always one ways. I used to feel the way you do but the reality is that drivers are less patient, less willing to read road signs and drive way too fast. I am skeptical of roundabouts for the same reasons. But, it keeps the city crews busy and the road contractors employed.

BTW, we pay those Negroes to amble around to keep the suburbans moving right along out of town. Same thing with the scragglies. Local secret.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 12:15:33 pm
I've never understood the complaint that one-way streets confuse visitors.  Every good downtown I have visited had one-way streets.  Are our visitors uniquely stupid and easily confused?  If we leave the IDL entry/exists as one-way, aren't we just talking about 1st & 2nd, Cincinnati & Detroit, and 7th & 8th?  Maybe we just need better signage on the one-way streets we keep.

Part of the problem in downtown Tulsa, though, is that there are very few crossings between the Brady District and the rest of downtown as it is. If we want true connectivity between the Brady, Blue Dome, CBD and BOK Center/One Place, we need more two-way connection points. There are many instances where an out-of-towner (or perhaps even a local) could become very disoriented, especially if trying to access any of those areas from the Brady District.

Elgin: Two-way
Detroit: North only
Cincinnati: South only
Boston: None
Main: South only, ends at First Street (West only)
Boulder: None (with North-only bridge under construction)
Cheyenne: Two-way from north, then Cheyenne becomes one-way (South only) at First Street (West only)
Denver: Two-way, blocked off for events at BOK Center

If we want people to stay downtown, they have to feel comfortable that they can get around easily. The above street access stuff is a lot of information to retain, and if you're not from the area, it could cause a lot of frustration.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 03, 2012, 01:14:12 pm
I like the idea of keeping some of the one ways, reducing them down to two, maybe three lanes, widening the sidewalks and putting in real bike lanes.  

Bingo!

Cincinnati and Detroit could easily stay one ways. If you have any common sense and look at a map these are not difficult to figure out. 1st and 2nd street I could see staying one way as well along with 7th and 8th because of the way they are integrated with the highways. Any of the other streets besides these need to be 2 ways.

They just need to be slimmed down a bunch. I would say it probably only needs the capacity of two lanes (3 would be pushing it), have parallel parking on one side and diagonal parking on the other side with a bike lane included. Install a streetscape on both sides of the street and you've instantly increased on street parking and made the streets more pedestrian friendly while not compromising the capacity issues of the grid and spending tons of money on reworking the intersections around the highways. I would rather see that money spent on trees, better lighting, bike racks, benches, and expanding our bike lanes downtown.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: rdj on May 03, 2012, 01:16:29 pm
I miss the one ways.  I really couldn't be bothered that some tourist from 91st and yale is scared by the one ways and potential for seeing a "negro".  They should have left the one ways the way they were and left Bartlett Square /Rant

Really?  Wow.  Drunk in the afternoon?

I'm fine with them either way.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: rdj on May 03, 2012, 01:20:52 pm
I like the idea of keeping some of the one ways, reducing them down to two, maybe three lanes, widening the sidewalks and putting in real bike lanes.  

I agree with this.  Cincy & Detroit are visually daunting to a pedestrian.  It doesn't help that many motorists think it's the highway and drive damn fast.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 01:32:47 pm
1st and 2nd street I could see staying one way as well along with 7th and 8th because of the way they are integrated with the highways.

Shouldn't this be the other way around? Shouldn't we make our streets the priority and not the highways? We've been provided with an interstate noose around downtown that segregates it from the rest of the community, and we should make it as easy to get into our downtown as possible, and make it easy to navigate once you're there. One-way streets do not contribute to either.

Keeping those six streets (Cincinnati, Detroit, 1st, 2nd, 7th, 8th) as one-ways leaves us with an un-even, "waffled" downtown street grid that's unpredictable for motorists and unfriendly toward pedestrians.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 03, 2012, 02:06:08 pm
Shouldn't this be the other way around? Shouldn't we make our streets the priority and not the highways? We've been provided with an interstate noose around downtown that segregates it from the rest of the community, and we should make it as easy to get into our downtown as possible, and make it easy to navigate once you're there. One-way streets do not contribute to either.

Keeping those six streets (Cincinnati, Detroit, 1st, 2nd, 7th, 8th) as one-ways leaves us with an un-even, "waffled" downtown street grid that's unpredictable for motorists and unfriendly toward pedestrians.

I guess my question would be, would you rather have the ability to widen sidewalks, increase on street parking, and have a bike lane and keep the streets one way. OR would you rather have everything two ways just to make navigation of downtown easier.

You want to make it easier for the people that come downtown from the suburbs to get downtown and out of it while not being able to "get lost" and to slow traffic down. Well you can do the exact same thing by keeping streets one way and just taking the money you'd be spending on conversion of these streets into making the pedestrian experience better. Your point you are making about two way streets has nothing to do with anything besides a motorist point of view.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2249/detroitremodel.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/detroitremodel.jpg/)

On the top part you have an expanded side walk (blackish grey area) with parallel parking moved out slightly (orange area), bordered by a bike lane (red area) 2 lanes of traffic north bound on Detroit (inbetween the two blue lines) and then diagonal parking (other larger orange area) with an expanded sidewalk on the other side.

To me keeping the streets one way and focusing on a road DIET and making the pedestrian more at ease is more important. Would you rather Cross Detroit as a 2 lane one way street with a bike lane or would you rather cross it as a 4 lane two direction street with center turning area?

To me once you start turning these one way streets (that basically turn into highway on and off ramps) you're going to be causing as many problems in confusion with people that aren't familiar with downtown. Example, What happens if we turned Detroit into two ways.... A unsuspecting suburbanite has spotted a homeless man on a way to a concert and in fear of her life (slight exaggeration haha  ;D) has decided to book it out of downtown. She gets 13th Street were Detroit starts and can't figure out how to get onto the highway. So she decides to drive one and proceeds to enter the Broken Arrow Expressway going the wrong direction.

No matter what we do, with the way our highway system is in downtown it will be IMPOSSIBLE to do it in a idiot proof way. When you look at a map and analyze it.. Cincinnati, Detroit, 7th, 8th, 1st and 2nd all make sense in a way to be one way streets. Lets just work on making them more friendly and not so expressway like.



Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: nathanm on May 03, 2012, 02:08:03 pm
You know what would actually make out-of-towners more comfortable downtown? Traffic signals where they expect them to be. They're waaay too easy to miss for folks who aren't used to them being where they are.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 02:15:20 pm
I guess my question would be, would you rather have the ability to widen sidewalks, increase on street parking, and have a bike lane and keep the streets one way. OR would you rather have everything two ways just to make navigation of downtown easier.

You want to make it easier for the people that come downtown from the suburbs to get downtown and out of it while not being able to "get lost" and to slow traffic down. Well you can do the exact same thing by keeping streets one way and just taking the money you'd be spending on conversion of these streets into making the pedestrian experience better. Your point you are making about two way streets has nothing to do with anything besides a motorist point of view.

Right now, most of our downtown streets are four lanes in one direction with two lanes of parking. The concept of turning a one-way into a two-way doesn't have to mean all the streets remain 4 lanes. We could easy convert them to two-way streets with one lane in each direction, or doing three lanes (one turning lane). There are still opportunities to narrow the streets, and to include wider curb cuts. These ideas are not mutually exclusive, and would benefit both drivers and pedestrians.

The suburbanite concert-goer scenario is both something that already happens because of our one-way streets, and something that could be prevented with a more predictable street pattern and better markings/signage.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: jacobi on May 03, 2012, 02:18:21 pm
Quote
Really?  Wow.  Drunk in the afternoon?

YOU DONT KNOW ME!!!   ;)  Not drunk, I just find the rush to accomodate thos who are going to hate downtown anyway pointless.  The one way streets took some work to navagate but that was sort of the litmus test for whether or not you "knew" downtown.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: rdj on May 03, 2012, 02:28:51 pm
YOU DONT KNOW ME!!!   ;)  Not drunk, I just find the rush to accomodate thos who are going to hate downtown anyway pointless.  The one way streets took some work to navagate but that was sort of the litmus test for whether or not you "knew" downtown.

Understand, but we want people that don't "know" downtown to discover the great things we love about the area.  Does that mean a suburbification of downtown?  No, but making the streets easier and more comfortable to navigate for autos, pedestrians, bicycles, mass transit, etc all play into having a vibrant downtown.  That most likely means turning one-way streets into two-way and shrinking wide one-way streets into more narrow/manageable streets.

You come across in this post in a way that only those in the clique can enjoy downtown.  That added to your comment about "negros" in the earlier post are quite unsettling.  Isn't any good downtown and urban area about inclusion and diversity?


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: TheTed on May 03, 2012, 02:34:10 pm
Narrowing the roads is long, long overdue, like 50 years.

Narrowing streets will make them safer for drivers, too. How many accidents and near misses are caused by people doing things they shouldn't be doing in the lane they're in (going straight in a turn-only, seeing their destination and cutting across three lanes of same-direction traffic to turn, etc.)?

And yes, the one-ways are awful for pedestrians. At six lanes wide, you can start crossing when there are no cars coming only to have a car bearing down on you at 40mph before you're all the way across.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: nathanm on May 03, 2012, 02:54:01 pm
And yes, the one-ways are awful for pedestrians. At six lanes wide, you can start crossing when there are no cars coming only to have a car bearing down on you at 40mph before you're all the way across.

Don't jaywalk and it's not a problem. It's not like the legal crossing points are far away as they often are in other parts of town.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 02:59:55 pm
Don't jaywalk and it's not a problem. It's not like the legal crossing points are far away as they often are in other parts of town.

Actually, as someone else who walks a lot, it is a problem, even at crosswalks. And as I understand it, in Oklahoma, jaywalking is defined as crossing a street more than 150 feet from a crosswalk. Since downtown blocks are 300 feet long, jaywalking is impossible downtown (except for on super-blocks).

Not all intersections have traffic signals or stop signs, so when people barrel past at very high speeds on a 6-lane road, it's very, very dangerous for pedestrians.

Edit: Here's the Tulsa City Ordinance regarding pedestrians crossing streets:
Section 1102. - Crossing street.
Every pedestrian shall cross the street within the crosswalk or at an intersection, whether or not such intersection is controlled by traffic-control signals; provided, however, that this provision shall not apply to residential neighborhoods, except where a major street passes through such neighborhoods or traffic-control devices are provided. A pedestrian crossing a street in a residential area shall take the shortest possible route to the opposite side of the street and at a right angle to the side of the street.
(Ord. No. 13227)


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 03:08:00 pm
Here are two possible ways to deal with the Cincinnati-Detroit merge north of Standpipe Hill, and 7th & 8th Streets near Home Depot.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8004/6993423938_360916126f_o.png)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7091/6993892300_71f3ef3423_o.png)


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: jacobi on May 03, 2012, 03:14:24 pm
Quote
That added to your comment about "negros" in the earlier post are quite unsettling.

Unsettling? howso? because I illustrate the racist attitudes of suburbanites.  That's in quotes because I have heard people list that as a reason to not go downtown right next to one way streets.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 03, 2012, 03:23:59 pm
Right now, most of our downtown streets are four lanes in one direction with two lanes of parking. The concept of turning a one-way into a two-way doesn't have to mean all the streets remain 4 lanes. We could easy convert them to two-way streets with one lane in each direction, or doing three lanes (one turning lane). There are still opportunities to narrow the streets, and to include wider curb cuts. These ideas are not mutually exclusive, and would benefit both drivers and pedestrians.

The suburbanite concert-goer scenario is both something that already happens because of our one-way streets, and something that could be prevented with a more predictable street pattern and better markings/signage.

I'm sorry but I just don't get your opinion on changing the streets I've mentioned into two way traffic and how it would make the street grid any easier for people not knowledgeable on downtown to understand. Doesn't mean you are wrong, to me it makes more sense to keep them one way.

(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3241/onewaystreetanalysis.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/onewaystreetanalysis.jpg/)

The blue streets I highlighted are the ones I think should stay one way, and just be put on a diet with more on street parking, wider sidewalks, and bike lanes.

The others (red streets) should be turned into two lanes. These streets are through streets and for a matter of traffic flow outside the core it is important that they don't just all of a sudden change into a one way.

If we converted all streets to two ways, I noted on the map with the explanation mark where there would have to be a major intersection reworking and signage added to help people understand what is going on and why certain lanes end.

And tell me how on the Cincinnati-Detroit merge you propose, that it is less confusing to a driver than the way it already is? To me it looks pretty intimidating and your spending a ton of money adding signals to an area that doesn't need them. I would rather spend that $250,000 (just an estimate) on new signals and the other few million dollars to rework each one of those intersections and put it towards other things.

Also you kind of avoided the fact that if we kept the streets I'm pointing out as one way we would have added sidewalk capacity (room for outdoor seating at bars or restaurants), bike lanes, and more on street parking. With your version we would have no room for a wider sidewalks, no room for bike lanes, and no added street parking. To me I would rather keep the one way street that aren't vital through street corridors to the rest of the town, and just shrink the scale. I'm guessing though you are in favor of making it possibly more easy to navigate for a motorist than to have room for bikes, pedestrians, and more parking? You can't turn these streets into a 3 lane (center turn lane) they need to be at least 2 lanes each direction because they are the ways in and out of downtown and you can't just take away that capacity without cause problems.  


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: Townsend on May 03, 2012, 03:27:53 pm
Aren't more of the one-ways going to be two-way within the next year or so?

Main is one of them.  I can't remember the others.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 04:05:58 pm
And tell me how on the Cincinnati-Detroit merge you propose, that it is less confusing to a driver than the way it already is? To me it looks pretty intimidating and your spending a ton of money adding signals to an area that doesn't need them. I would rather spend that $250,000 (just an estimate) on new signals and the other few million dollars to rework each one of those intersections and put it towards other things.

That's one possible solution.

Quote
Also you kind of avoided the fact that if we kept the streets I'm pointing out as one way we would have added sidewalk capacity (room for outdoor seating at bars or restaurants), bike lanes, and more on street parking. With your version we would have no room for a wider sidewalks, no room for bike lanes, and no added street parking. To me I would rather keep the one way street that aren't vital through street corridors to the rest of the town, and just shrink the scale. I'm guessing though you are in favor of making it possibly more easy to navigate for a motorist than to have room for bikes, pedestrians, and more parking? You can't turn these streets into a 3 lane (center turn lane) they need to be at least 2 lanes each direction because they are the ways in and out of downtown and you can't just take away that capacity without cause problems.

I didn't avoid any part of your comments. We don't have the capacity, no matter what event or events are going, to fill the streets we have. The streets become their regular selves when you approach the on-ramps to the highways. Streets don't have to stay 5 lanes or 4 lanes or 3 lanes wide for their entire length. You yourself proposed taking lanes away so I don't understand why you're critical of doing the same with a two-way street.

And the drawings I've posted are there to show that it is indeed possible to convert these "nonconvertible" one-way streets, not to propose a certain number of lanes.

Regarding the "major intersection reworkings", with more two-way streets, there are actually fewer places where lanes suddenly end, and more opportunities for a driver to correct themselves than with our current one-way streets.
The argument of lanes suddenly ending is actually the reverse. Look at the map I posted of 7th & 8th Streets. Do lanes end on 7th Street? Yes, the four lanes of off-ramp traffic are reduced to two by the time it reaches Elgin. But it's limited to the convergence of the off-ramps, and will naturally slow drivers down as they enter downtown. Often, drivers on that particular off-ramp and stretch of 7th get up to 45 miles an hour because it's built like a drag strip, then have to hit their brakes when they see the light turn red. Is the lane reduction in that case a bad thing? I don't think so.

For the entire length of 8th Street, there actually be "new" lanes people could travel, since traffic would be opened to both directions. As a driver approaches 75/51/444, the road widens to its original amount of lanes and people are able to exit downtown as normal. No lanes would end abruptly, there just won't be traffic approaching them from the other direction after Elgin.

I'm not against wider sidewalks at all, and assuming I am because I'm in favor of making our streets bi-directional is ludicrous. Wider sidewalks are part of what can build a community (see Jane Jacobs). The issue of bike lanes is an entirely different argument, though. Cyclists and traffic planners are divided on the issue. Same with angled parking. And it's not the main purpose of this topic.

Fact: Two-way streets slow down traffic.
Fact: Slower traffic is safer for pedestrians.
Fact: Two-way streets increase predictability for motorists. It's what they're used to.
Fact: Our downtown streets are overbuilt for current and even the wildest projections.

We need narrower, slower, more pedestrian-oriented streets in the heart of our downtown. Converting our streets from one-way to two-way would help achieve that. I'm not saying it's the only thing that needs to be done with our streets, but one of many things we need to do.

And Heavy Traffic Way is already two-way, from 7th to 1st. At 1st, you're forced north onto Guthrie because, guess what, lanes end.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 04:07:30 pm
Aren't more of the one-ways going to be two-way within the next year or so?

Main is one of them.  I can't remember the others.

Main from 3rd to 6th is two-way, and they're supposed to be extending the two-way conversion from 6th to 10th.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 03, 2012, 04:30:00 pm
That's one possible solution.

I didn't avoid any part of your comments. We don't have the capacity, no matter what event or events are going, to fill the streets we have. The streets become their regular selves when you approach the on-ramps to the highways. Streets don't have to stay 5 lanes or 4 lanes or 3 lanes wide for their entire length. You yourself proposed taking lanes away so I don't understand why you're critical of doing the same with a two-way street.

I'm not at all criticizing the fact you want to take lanes away. In fact I agree that we probably only need two lanes for each direction.

That's one possible solution.

We need narrower, slower, more pedestrian-oriented streets in the heart of our downtown. Converting our streets from one-way to two-way would help achieve that. I'm not saying it's the only thing that needs to be done with our streets, but one of many things we need to do.

This is contradictory to what you're actually proposing though. You aren't slimming the streets at all. In fact you would be keeping them the exact same width

Here is how your two lane each direction actually plays out, with the orange areas being parallel parking. No room for bike lanes, no room for more parking, no room for wider sidewalks which you agreed help make a more "lively" city, and you are keeping the pedestrian crossings the same width they are now except inside of only looking one direction for cars you now have cars coming from TWO directions.

(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9554/detroitremodel2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/detroitremodel2.jpg/)

My Solution

(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2249/detroitremodel.jpg)

My solution reduces traffic lanes (slowing traffic to the same yours would), makes the street easier to cross, adds bike lanes, doubles the sidewalk space, and adds parking. This solution would also cost a lot less than yours.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 04:33:53 pm
Quote
This is contradictory to what you're actually proposing though. You aren't slimming the streets at all. In fact you would be keeping them the exact same width

As I've said before, the purpose of the drawings wasn't to show how many lanes each road would have, but that two-way conversion was possible. Could they be 4 lanes? Sure. Could they be 3 lanes? Sure. Could they be 2 lanes? Sure.

Here's another possibility for the Detroit & Cincinnati convergence.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7042/7140209311_20ed081d2c_o.png)


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 03, 2012, 04:46:40 pm
As I've said before, the purpose of the drawings wasn't to show how many lanes each road would have, but that two-way conversion was possible. Could they be 4 lanes? Sure. Could they be 3 lanes? Sure. Could they be 2 lanes? Sure.

So you are telling me we could turn Detroit and Cincinnati into 3 or two lane road, and that wouldn't cause any kind of traffic problems? Look at Denver for example and imagine if it was 2-3 lanes instead of 4. While people would survive, it's not a smart idea to turn all our major streets into small capacity roads. Look at places like Austin, Portland, Charlotte... places we want Tulsa to be like. They also ALL have certain streets as one way streets. If we got our downtown population to 10,000, 10 years from now, there is NO way Detroit and Cincinnati could handle that kind of traffic as a 3/2 lane road. Same with 1st and 2nd, 7th and 8th. Right now could they handle it? Yes, but that's short sighted planning. Is there a downtown in the USA (with a metro around a Million or over) that doesn't have a one way street in it?


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: Hoss on May 03, 2012, 04:47:08 pm
I think 1st and 2nd Streets as they are configured now with the way that I-244 dumps onto 1st and 2nd Street converges into an access ramp for both 244 and 75 should stay.  Converting them now would mean more than just painting double yellow lines on both of these streets.  If they wanted to do that, they should have scheduled it (1st Street specifically) for when they were doing that offramp work that completed on there about this time last year.  I'd love to see you reconfigure that mess....


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: dsjeffries on May 03, 2012, 04:51:28 pm
So you are telling me we could turn Detroit and Cincinnati into 3 or two lane road, and that wouldn't cause any kind of traffic problems? Look at Denver for example and imagine if it was 2-3 lanes instead of 4. While people would survive, it's not a smart idea to turn all our major streets into small capacity roads. Look at places like Austin, Portland, Charlotte... places we want Tulsa to be like. They also ALL have certain streets as one way streets. If we got our downtown population to 10,000, 10 years from now, there is NO way Detroit and Cincinnati could handle that kind of traffic as a 3/2 lane road. Same with 1st and 2nd, 7th and 8th. Right now could they handle it? Yes, but that's short sighted planning. Is there a downtown in the USA (with a metro around a Million or over) that doesn't have a one way street in it?

Actually, planning for all the one-way streets we currently have was short-sighted. Look at what that's gotten us. As I said earlier, as the streets approach the on-ramps in either direction, they should get wider. But while they're going through the majority of our downtown, they do not need to be one-way or as wide. It seems like you're advocating some kind of downtown "shortcut". People aren't hopping off the BA at Detroit and traveling through downtown to get north on Detroit. 2 lane roads are not going to cause traffic to come to a screeching halt.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 03, 2012, 05:11:29 pm
Actually, planning for all the one-way streets we currently have was short-sighted. Look at what that's gotten us. As I said earlier, as the streets approach the on-ramps in either direction, they should get wider. But while they're going through the majority of our downtown, they do not need to be one-way or as wide. It seems like you're advocating some kind of downtown "shortcut". People aren't hopping off the BA at Detroit and traveling through downtown to get north on Detroit. 2 lane roads are not going to cause traffic to come to a screeching halt.

It will significantly impact traffic during rush hours though if you cut Detroit, Cincinnati, 1st, 2nd, 7th, 8th all to a 2/3 lane road. I've already shown that your 4/5 lane roads don't do anything to narrow the roads (while it would calm the traffic speed).

Imagine 8-10 years from now, and our downtown population and development took off... we now have a population of 10,000 living in the area (similar to Austin and Portland). Think of the traffic in and around those downtown's... now convert all their arterial streets that are one way into a 2/3 lane road. Even a city core like Portland that has great transit would cause a ripple effect of traffic congestion. Now do we want to plan for downtown the way it is now? or do we want to take into account population growth for the next 20-30 years until the core has been infilled?


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: Red Arrow on May 03, 2012, 05:30:07 pm
One way to use some lane space would be to put some steel rails there for a real trolley.  Then mark that space for trolley use only.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: carltonplace on May 04, 2012, 08:59:31 am
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2249/detroitremodel.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/detroitremodel.jpg/)


If only I could find a place to park in this photograph. I can see Waldo, but no parking spaces.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: erfalf on May 04, 2012, 12:01:01 pm
This is the discussion downtown planners should be having. As you all know I hail from that town up north, so take my opinion however you want. But as an outsider, the biggest problem I have with downtown Tulsa is it's unusually large streets. I mean it's nice to be able to pick from all those lanes, but too many people drive 40-50 mpg. It's not pleasant to walk down the street next to these race tracks either. I think a road diet would do more for downtown Tulsa than any other single thing.

Personally it is my hope to see the first stretch of rail running down Cincinnati or Detroit. Is that even something you all are still desiring, or is it just that you don't think it will happen so you just stop hoping.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 04, 2012, 12:04:31 pm
If only I could find a place to park in this photograph. I can see Waldo, but no parking spaces.

I don't know if you are actually confused or just trying to be funny... but if you being serious and don't see what I am talking about. The orange zones are were the parking would be (the bigger one is angled and smaller parallel), red is bike lane, blue lane shows the two lanes of traffic.

Here's a break down:

(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9280/parking1q.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/213/parking1q.jpg/)

A is what I purposed
B & C is what dsjeffries purposed

While I don't think any (A, B, of C) would be bad if they were implemented because they are all improvements over what we have now. I would rather see A over C because you would keep traffic capacity were it should be for growth in the future, and you don't have to rework and of the existing intersections where these turn into on an off ramps making it cheaper and faster to implement. I would however pick C over B though if we HAD to convert every street to two way traffic because it narrows the street, expands sidewalks, and allows for bike lanes.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: LandArchPoke on May 04, 2012, 12:06:34 pm
This is the discussion downtown planners should be having. As you all know I hail from that town up north, so take my opinion however you want. But as an outsider, the biggest problem I have with downtown Tulsa is it's unusually large streets. I mean it's nice to be able to pick from all those lanes, but too many people drive 40-50 mpg. It's not pleasant to walk down the street next to these race tracks either. I think a road diet would do more for downtown Tulsa than any other single thing.

Personally it is my hope to see the first stretch of rail running down Cincinnati or Detroit. Is that even something you all are still desiring, or is it just that you don't think it will happen so you just stop hoping.

With any of the three solutions that's been brought up (see post above) you could easily take out one side of parking and use it as a dedicated streetcar lane. So I would hope that in the future it would be something to implement as well.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: Townsend on May 04, 2012, 12:41:52 pm
I don't know if you are actually confused or just trying to be funny...

He was kidding.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: PonderInc on May 06, 2012, 12:21:43 pm
Every street in downtown should be 2-way.  The end.

I have heard presentations by semi-retired, old-school traffic engineers arguing against it, but their 1960's mentality and arguments don't hold up to actual facts.

If you listen to transportation planners (note the difference between a traffic engineer and a transportation planner), they all agree that 2-way streets are superior.  Not only for cars, but for cyclists, public transit...and yes, tourists.

Here's all you need to know:
Example: Cinn & Detroit
If you currently have two 1-way streets, you currently have 4 lanes going north and 4 lanes going south (plus parking!).
If you change them to two 2-way streets, you would then have...wait for it... 4 lanes going north and 4 lanes going south (plus parking).

With a lot less confusion, and a lot more efficiency. 

Anyone who pretends that traffic would back up onto the highway is not thinking clearly.

If you take the Cinn/Detroit exit from 244 westbound, you take the exit ramp and you come to a.... stop light on the exit ramp at Detroit.
Then, you drive one block further to Cincinnati, and you come to...another stop light at Cincinnati.

If those two lights don't back up traffic onto the highway, it won't matter if you put a couple stop lights way down Cincinnati at Cameron or Brady.  Traffic will flow and disperse. 

Few cars travelling south from the highway even make left turns.  Most destinations are to the right or straight ahead. Even baseball traffic disperses to various parking/dining destinations all over Brady and the Blue Dome areas. 

Baseball fans would actually really benefit from additional stop lights and slower traffic along Cinn & Detroit between Archer and 244.  As it is, those streets serve as expressways for people getting on/off 244.  Nothing to slow them down as they race along their enormously wide speedway....er urban street.   Just watch kids and families trying to walk from the Brady Dist to a ballgame during rush hour traffic.  It's frightening.



Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: RecycleMichael on May 06, 2012, 01:50:27 pm
Every street in downtown should be 2-way.  The end.

I am glad those expressway on-ramps are one-way.

Hey Ponder. Long time no hear.


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: Hoss on May 06, 2012, 04:17:16 pm
Every street in downtown should be 2-way.  The end.

I have heard presentations by semi-retired, old-school traffic engineers arguing against it, but their 1960's mentality and arguments don't hold up to actual facts.

If you listen to transportation planners (note the difference between a traffic engineer and a transportation planner), they all agree that 2-way streets are superior.  Not only for cars, but for cyclists, public transit...and yes, tourists.

Here's all you need to know:
Example: Cinn & Detroit
If you currently have two 1-way streets, you currently have 4 lanes going north and 4 lanes going south (plus parking!).
If you change them to two 2-way streets, you would then have...wait for it... 4 lanes going north and 4 lanes going south (plus parking).

With a lot less confusion, and a lot more efficiency. 

Anyone who pretends that traffic would back up onto the highway is not thinking clearly.

If you take the Cinn/Detroit exit from 244 westbound, you take the exit ramp and you come to a.... stop light on the exit ramp at Detroit.
Then, you drive one block further to Cincinnati, and you come to...another stop light at Cincinnati.

If those two lights don't back up traffic onto the highway, it won't matter if you put a couple stop lights way down Cincinnati at Cameron or Brady.  Traffic will flow and disperse. 

Few cars travelling south from the highway even make left turns.  Most destinations are to the right or straight ahead. Even baseball traffic disperses to various parking/dining destinations all over Brady and the Blue Dome areas. 

Baseball fans would actually really benefit from additional stop lights and slower traffic along Cinn & Detroit between Archer and 244.  As it is, those streets serve as expressways for people getting on/off 244.  Nothing to slow them down as they race along their enormously wide speedway....er urban street.   Just watch kids and families trying to walk from the Brady Dist to a ballgame during rush hour traffic.  It's frightening.



Not seeing the entire picture though.  Try and make that work with the current configuration of the on-ramps for 244/75 at 1st (off ramp) and 2nd (onramp).


Title: Re: Solution to One-Way Streets at IDL Exits
Post by: Red Arrow on May 06, 2012, 05:36:38 pm
The streets directly concerned with IDL exit and entrance ramps would need extra caution to prevent wrong direction expressway entries but the rest of them, go for it.  Presumably the worst that will happen is that it doesn't work.  If that's the case, it's only money to try something else.