The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Do the citizens of Tulsa think we need another industrial park in the flood plain of Mingo/Bird Creek?

The airport authority is scratching their heads and looking for the reason that no person, using nom-tax money, is interested in putting their money on the line to compete with TAIT, who across Mingo to the west, enters into long term contracts for city owned industrials buildings at a $1.00 a year.
Then also the City of Tulsa,
Tulsa Industrial Authority,
Tulsa Developing Authority,
Tulsa Economic Development Corp,
Tulsa Metro Chamber,
Oklahoma Department of Commerce, are scheduled to have their finger in the development. 
Do you think we should call the broker and see if there is a public offering available for this development? 

       

you do realize that the flooding in the mingo creek flood basin was corrected after the 1984 Memorial Day flood, right?  I lived through that (all the dredging of Mingo Creek).  I still live in the basin.  That was completely corrected almost 25 years ago!  Remember, the Flood Mitigation Plan?

Good heavens.

Remember 21" of rain NW of here?  I'm just waiting for a lot of new development along the river and somewhat inland between Jenks and Bixby to get a whole new meaning of waterfront development.  We've taken care of the typical summer gully washer but the big flood will occur again.

Not nearly as bad as downtown and midtown.

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Hoss: you must have not renewed your flood insurance requiring full coverage insurance.
The flood of 86’ washed the gravel out beneath the RR tracks that cross Mingo at ½ mile North of Pine.
Public Works Director will tell you that the same flood of 86’ cannot be contained. (1% chance of happening any given year)
Having seen the floods and taking pictures of same if you are in the basin from Pine to highway 20 and they blow the flood whistle just run like hell.     

doesn't require it anymore after the modifications.  That rider was removed.  the only undeveloped section of Mingo Creek is north of Pine.  There are several detention ponds south of it.  Use Google Maps...wait a minute...

I think downtown and midtown Tulsa were mostly OK in 1988 when the Arkansas flooded big time.  Brookside had problems.  Most of Memorial south of 121st had problems.  There were a few islands that were OK.  We had some space in a ministorage in Bixby south of the river just off Memorial that stayed dry but you couldn't get into it without getting wet.  This was the flood that took out the RR between Bixby and Haskell.

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The 62 sq miles of the Mingo drainage basin is in constant change.  By the elevations flood waters flow into the Mingo about ten times faster than it flows down the creek.  The detention ponds were engineered for the terrain as it existed 25 years ago.  Every square foot of concrete that is poured becomes an impervious surface creating a 100% runoff. Thus the threats still exist.
All additions of buildings in the basin, drives, streets, sidewalks laid in the 25 years change the calculations of detention.  We will have floods greater than the previous flood in the basin.

Brookside is built on the sand left as the Arkansas River meandered to the south.  The flood on the Arkansas was caused when the weather bureau warned the Corps to open the gates because of the amount of water coming into Keystone.  Was in the office of the weather bureau as they watched the storm move to the NW up the Arkansas River on radar.   That flood could have breached the Keystone Dam.
The flood on the Arkansas took out the SS Line RR also.         

Wrong.

You are so wrong I don't even know where to begin.

I've LIVED in this basin all my life.  I know how it was before the project, I know what it did after it.  Detention areas were built to mitigate any runoff.  Just because you have concrete poured doesn't mean there werent' other things done to improve it.  You know how wide Mingo Creek was from Admiral to 11th when I was growing up?  About 10 feet.  Now in that stretch it's probably close to 120 feet wide at the bank and maybe 200 feet wide at the top.  There are drains in that section.  You do know the park at 11th and Mingo (both on the north and south sides) and the big soccer field off 169 between 31st and 41st are detention ponds, right?

We had several floods in the basin before the project.  We have not had one since.  Not one.  And there have been gully washers of rains that, had the project not been done, would have more of us flooded out.  I'm certain of that.

For someone who is as old as you are, you sure don't know a lot.  Wow.

Read some of this:

http://www.swt.usace.army.mil/library/tdr/2001/2001-02.pdf

It talks about the completion of the project.

Last paragraph states:


And this page:

http://www.swt.usace.army.mil/PROJECTS/civil/civil_projects.cfm?number=81

Has a few words about the project as well.

EDIT:

oh, one more for good measure:

http://ou.academia.edu/MarkMeo/Papers/698407/Tulsa_turnaround_from_disaster_to_sustainability

Bravo there I am sure you can remember the wagon bridge at Admiral and Mingo where it closed the highway every time it rained, then the airport on the NE corner would be flooded.  I have the original drawing of the fish ponds at the bottom of the detention ponds which the city pays thousands of dollars royalty each time the dig one in the retention ponds.  Yes we are number one in flood controls. Colorado Springs was first but I understand they have abandoned it now.
I have the book the Corps published for the Senators.  The design of the detention ponds in their Tulsa’s designing lacked the key features needed to make the ponds workable.  A 4” rainstorm over 3 hours will fill the detention ponds and create flooding.  In 86’ the flood waters ran over the Pork Chop pond at 11 and Mingo. Go look at it and be informed.     
 

That last reference you listed was co-authored by my mother. The Corps book shadows refers to was also written by my mother. I have the same references. Shadows has some pictures, but not the engineering design pictures.

Shadows lives in the past and has been bitter about stormwater management efforts for 25 years. The city bought up the land from his neighbors, but his land was outside the city limits. That anger has clouded his memory.

Yeah, and in 1986 they barely started on the project.  One design was proposed initially and then rejected.  The May 6 2000 rain event proved that the mitigation worked, and they technically didn't finish the project until the following September.

And if there was a wagon bridge there it was well before the time that the CoT annexed this portion of Tulsa County.

Living through two floods in this house makes me proud of how so many people came together and hashed out difference to create something for the common good of the community.  Good thing Shadows wasn't involved...

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It was not my intention to rehash the flooding but the book mentioned was edited by the US printing office and given to the Senator by The Sectary of the Army (Civil Works) in the communications process covering Mingo Creek, Tulsa, Oklahoma interim on the Verdigris River Basin, Kansas and Oklahoma. Dated April 30, 1984 ordered printed under act of 1976 (Public Law 94-587) containing pictures, drawings and letters in its 533 pages.
The 65 acres of soil removed from Pork Chop (11th and Mingo) was moved to the floodway South of Pine blocking the flow.  It contains pictures of the results of no gain on storage and restricted flows.
It shows the proposed 3rd runway on the East side of Mingo Road that the Fed bureaucracies refused to finance.
 Not wanting to enter into personalities but sometimes some get too much of the pink gas in the city hall and they see everything as a bouquet of pink roses where they can double dip.

There is no need to sell the property on Mingo Road but have gotten letters from agencies advising they have foreign investors that are interested in buying property.

My intent of the post was to get opinions from citizens, as those surveys which cost the working poor thousands of dollars, are collecting dust,  pointing out the city is top heavy in the standing bureaucracies already, where personal developers, using their own money don’t want to compete on master planning with the bureaucracies.

If one enters into personalities, it is very offensive and show poor genes.  The operation of city by the silent city government, if one would resort to personalities, they could cause much grief, to where it could desecrate even some graves.     

 

Something else to be proud of:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/site/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleid=20111212_61_A11_CUTLIN257757

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The gullible people of the city of Tulsa.   Name the cities that were in competition to get an award.  Wichita flood control was digging a channel around the town for the above banks flooding. The staff writer that wrote is possible the same one who wrote the article that the creek under the RR bridge had been cleaned as quoted by the a owner of wolf point (seems he sold insurance) where the water rose to eight feet above banks breaching the dikes. ON inspection the grass had not even been cut.

Seems he or I lost the ‘74 flood, in building 17 inches; memorial flood of ’84, in building, 30inches, memorial flood of ‘86, 42’inches.  I believe the picture is of the ‘86 flood that Wolf took from the chopper at 8:AM.

Sounds to me like RM is right...you still harbor a lot of hate and bitterness.  Just a hateful and bitter man.   :-\

Are you scheduled to have your finger in anything? Is that what this is really all about? Finger placement?

Well played.

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Don’t stick my finger into anything that is without source needing to be looked into for the working poor and aged citizens who pay the tab.  We are getting to where we are dealing in personalities in discrediting the messenger and over look the message. 
When one has walked in the flood water in their building that increases as the as the basin is developed, disregarding the warning to restrict development, and the very city is promoting such developing then some citizens should “stand their ground” and look for the reason.
     

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That is possible right but RM has been whiffing too much of the pink gas they spray on you when entering the city hall.  I am surprised he didn’t detail his mother’s former city boss’s awards and votes on trash disposal.

And what have you done to help..oh, aside from complain that is.  At least he and her have done something...

Hey now, what about me?

I never called you hateful, you're just a dooshnozzle sometimes.

 ;D

Awwww. I wanted to be hateful. I'll settle for dooshnozzle for now, but I'll work on it.  ;D

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Hey; the Grand jury report is quite lengthy and Administration probably  would frown if I tried to publish it on this form.  But it is very interesting of their recommendations that were  deleted by the powers to be. 
Check out a copy at the library.
Tried to cut off funding for SWM which wound up in Court of Tax appeal in OC, nixed by the powers to be.  Told the court it was beyond the scope of the 3 district judge court that was convened as no tax had been collected  Court refused to remand it back to state auditor and let it stand. Etc.………………………………...................................   
As  a native Tulsan has not sat around picking their nose but have tried to exercise “We the People”.   


 

Then link it...

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Having looked on both sides of the door I have learn my lesson. It was  pointed out to me.  We are kicking the sleeping dog in the donkey.

The point of this post was if the working poor wants their hard earned tax money on food spent trying to promote a pie in the sky by creating another desk jockey  bureaucracy?   

How in the hell is Stormwater Management pie in the sky?   I'm sure glad it was done.

Managing the major gully washer is money well spent.  Allowing development in areas within a 100 year flood plain has proven that statistics don't guarantee a result.  Does anyone have any numbers if Flood Insurance is self supporting by its premiums, at least at a national level?

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Any filling in the corridor between the expressway and Mingo by the calculations taught in our substandard TPS, (that the state wants to improve) will easily show that such filling will increase flood depths in flood prone areas south of Pine.  It is this flood water corridor being filled is what should alarm the citizens.  True we have the lowest flood insurance but instead of  paying $100 dollars per $10,000 and insure only the damage one expects now it is around $80 dollars per 10 thousand but requiring the insurance to cover full replacement value of the property.  Like I have said the next time they blow the flood alarm just run like hell because the flash flooding waters enter the basin much faster than can exit through a restricted corridor    

So this begs the question.  Have YOU ever been flooded?

OK. I understand.

Shadows freely admits to dropping out of school in the third grade, yet somehow he knows more about hydrology than all the civil engineers in the world.
And he has some pretty picture drawings to prove it.

Forgive me for not agreeing with shadows on this one.

I'll have to give you a yes with qualifications.  When I was in the Navy at NAS Memphis (Millington, TN) the south side of the base flooded deep enough to swim in except we weren't allowed because of the local venomous snake population.  The barracks were at the edge of the flooding at the northern end of the base south of the main road.  A lot of us moved our cars to the north side of the base where they were safe.  At NAS Oceana (VA Beach, VA) the base wasn't totally flooded but it was deep enough in spots for the cooling fan to throw water into the air cleaner of my car and make the engine quit.  No hydraulic lock fortunately and the next day it started up.

As far as being in the Tulsa area, my dad was told to look out for flood areas when we moved here.  He got the USGS map (I still have that copy from 1971) and made sure that we were not in an area that would flood.   I guess Nathan would call that an unfair advantage.  At our house back east, we were near the lowest part of town but were far enough up the hill that we never got flooded.  I remember some street flooding and the depressed unloading area of the Post Office would occasionally flood but I don't remember any houses getting flooded.

All the world thinks they are either Mechanical or Civil Engineers.  Electrical, Chemical and Petroleum have enough magic to scare off the usual pretenders.

You can be those, too, if it will make you feel better.

 

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Yes; three times.  ‘74 water in business building 17 inches, covering the seats of chairs.  City dug pork chop and I protested the placing of dirt in the flood corridor south of Pine. After PC was completed it increased 84” flood waters to 30” or the top of desks.  Protested and was told by Corps retention was being completed.  Flood of ’86 after PC was completed flood waters topped four draw file cabinets  at 42” after retention was installed.

When the water covered I44 in the wee hours in the morning I started hammering on doors warning people to leave and take their cars to higher grounds.  The waters rose at a rapid pace.  84’ flood water rose and fell in 3 hours.  86’ flood waters receded in six hours.  

Hydrology is not an exact science. An engineer an I sought a school that presented courses in hydrology.  At that time a civil engineer could call himself an hydrologist if he had a Monroe calculator.  When a cluster of thunderstorms stall over a drainage basin or change direction retracing their path, the absolute cubic feet of rainfall cannot be forecast until the storms dissipate.      

Didn't we talk about that once before - there really are only two kinds of engineers - Mechanical and Electrical.  All the rest are derivatives, with the possible exception of Chemical.

Yeah and the difference between Electrical and Mechanical is mostly the names of the variables in the same equations.

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Bless his heart he is intoxicated with the pink gas that he goes to city hall to inhale every day so he can see the world as if through rose colored glasses.  There surely some kind of shots he can take to cure the addiction.  It could be also he smells those recyclable liquor bottles he collects.   

There are a LOT more beer bottles in the recycling bins than liquor bottles.  At least there are at the Bixby site.

Exactly.



And where are these is these $1 industrial facilities?  I would love to have one to move my manufacturing to, and would go ahead and buy flood insurance and just not worry about it.

That might be economically correct at your level but in the big scheme of things it only raises the cost for the rest of us.

I consider that to be like not using the manual extension on the landing gear of my airplane when the regular electric motor doesn't work.  What the heck, the insurance will pay for it.   Actually, they would investigate and probably deny my claim if they decided I didn't do everything possible.

Your statement also reminds of an old joke about 3 business men on the beach in Miami.  The first one said his business had been ruined by a huge fire but the insurance covered it.  The second one related a similar experience.  The third guy said his business was ruined by a flood.  The first guy asked,  "How do you start a flood?"

So do tell, what education do you have that qualifies you to know more about engineering than those who not only completed elementary but went on to get a college education? 

He knows how to cipher?

No, no, no...maybe that came off as desire for an "insurance event", but that is the last thing I want.  I got caught in that flood on Mingo in '80s and lost too much stuff - don't want a repeat.  Plus, most of my tools are old - in another venue, they would be 'antiques', that I enjoy using and definitely do not want to lose - old hand woodworking tools.

I would insure, but if lost stuff, then would have to start the search all over again to collect the tool set...

If anyone remembers the old weather commercials Channel 2 used to do about severe weather, they always showed a shot of a boat passing a maroon truck with what looked like a hard hat inside.  That was my dad's truck after getting stuck trying to get of our neighborhood during the Memorial Day flood.  Funny thing is, he took that truck apart and dried it out...engine and all.  I remember him having the engine out on a cherry picker when we got more rain the next day and the eerie two-tone sirens went off again.  Didn't flood, but I remember those sirens and what I was doing when they went off to this day.

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Since man emerged from being a child of nature and assembled into societies the fundamentals of which he assembled changes in his life styles was based upon mathematics of which the basics of all engineering. We are in a society where no longer are the textbooks restricted to the Monks nor is forbidden to own or read the textbooks.  Engineer feats of the Seven Wonders of the World stand as unexplainable monuments of yesterday and one can wonder who wrote the textbooks which the engineers used in their construction.   

Designs in engineering of the flawed construction of the twin towers are evident as the point of inertia was not considered allowing the domino effect at a great cost of human lives.  Even though the engineers could have plastered the walls with diplomas did they read their text books?   Kansas City Bridge and Iron I believe did most of the actual experimenting the text books of engineering are based on.

I hold diplomas, in cnc programming, refrigeration, FCC experimental electronics, war time production engineer, fifty years in construction, built houses, commercial buildings, lake cabins, designed machines and wrote computer programs among others.   Third grade taught more in the past years.     
         

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Take a FoI request form to view the school bus contract and present it to the City Secretary.  Follow the instructions.   

and what schools are these degrees from?

I think that rant would be awesome with Leonard Nimoy's voice!

Ok, where did this come from? What does the school bus contract have to do with anything?

Oh sure. Unfortunately, there is no "City Secretary".

Is this rant some sort of medication issue?

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Was not aware that city no longer keeps records as preformed by the duties of a secretary.  But since the new installation in the glass cube I guess the pink gas that is injected in the air conditioner was a prelude to “whom in the hell needs records”   
This is not a medical rant but would seem one to some people if the pink gas injector in city hall was temporally incapacitated.

I see a lack of reply to my question.

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Must have gotten lost somewhere.  I am not making an application for a job.

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Check post on April 2nd on the Owasso industry in AP industrial park.

We weren't afforded the opportunity really to look that hard in a market evidently that was not that easy at the time (1973) as we were 'eminent domained' out of our residence on 1400 S Elgin for the East Leg of the IDL.  But dad did find a house for $14500 (the one I'm living in now) but was also told it was required to carry flood insurance on it.  Since he mortgaged the house all that was handled by Midland Mortgage company and put in escrow.

We found out in June of 71 that we were moving to Oklahoma.  Dad probably knew or suspected earlier but he didn't tell us kids.  He did pursue a few opportunities to stay in PA but they fell through.  Mom and dad had a week here to find a house.  We moved in here in early August 71.  My sister was not happy that 9th grade started in mid August rather than just after Labor Day as it had in PA.  Most of the schools in that area were in session from just after Labor Day to mid June.

Be honest. Have you actually been in the new city hall? And do you really see pink gas coming out of the A/C vents?

It's his rose colored glasses.
 
 :D

Is the pink gas made by the same people tat make pink slime for beef?

Then you will have to forgive me if I don't believe you and call bull on your fist full of degrees.

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If I told the whole story you would not believe it either.  If I showed you the hard copy you would say they are false.  If I showed you IQ testing you would say that is lie. So let it stand with your own version of not having to believe.  Just think that I am trying to pick your brain for information over this marvel of electronics. 

Crap!  He's on to me and my gas injector.

(http://www.autoblog.com/media/2005/12/isuzu-injector.jpg)

Gad no because I don’t want to be addicted to smelling it and never want to leave our glass white elephant's home. 
.       

Wow.
What buildings are engineered to withstand having a 40-floor building dropped on top of them?
Cheyenne mountain?

He R smart indeed.

Especially since, as a pilot, I know the term is not point of inertia.  It's 'moment of inertia'...holy cow.

The man designed the building to withstand impact by a jet airplane of sixties profile. My understanding is that the size and speed of jets changed in the time period from the sixties to 2001. And of course, no one can plan for everything. We have the same building here, by the same designer, only half the height. It was groundbreaking design and copied with variation for decades. Materials are better now and may mitigate against the same catastrophe. My enlightenment comes from former lengthy arguments on this forum between engineers and tin foil hats.

Shadows isn't a dumb guy by my estimation. Some of the things he refers to in a fragmented way do correlate with the politics, criminal activities and skullduggery that my father relayed to me about Tulsa operators in the 50's to 70's. I am sure he is a guy who had some interface with power and politics here locally but he is a guy who doesn't communicate well with a savvy digital generation.

Sorry to talk about you while you're still in the room Shadow. We seldom agree on anything but I don't doubt your sincerity and insider knowledge. I think you make too much of them though.

WTC was designed around the impact of a 707 or a DC-9. The 747 was still in the trials phase IIRC.

I don't believe he was using the word "point" as a location in space.  I think he intended something more like the concept of inertia, as in the effects of inertia were not considered.  

Whether or not they were, I don't know.

From my college Physics book (Modern University Physics, Part 1 Mechanics and Thermodynamics.  by Richards, Sears, Wehr, Zemansky, 1960)  It was a few years old when I took the course.

p186
"That is, for rotation about a fixed axis, moment of inertia I is analogous to mass m (or inertia), and angular velocity (lower case letter omega) is analogous to linear velocity v."

(I don't know how to get a lower case Omega on this keyboard.)

Then they have an example.

p187
"This illustrates the important fact that the moment of inertia of a body, unlike its mass, is not a unique property of the body but depends on the axis about which it is computed."

Clear to everyone?

Agreed.

I seldom agree with Shadows either but I think his lack of formal education, especially in English, causes him difficulties here.

It was possible in the post WWII era to succeed with a high IQ, a good aptitude for learning and little formal education. Not sure thats as possible today though I seem to remember that Gates dropped out of college and a few other notables have succeeded through inspiration and perspiration. Some of the smartest guys I ever met have never been near a college campus.

Smart and educated frequently accompany each other but they are not synonyms.

Sometimes mutually exclusive....

Also, the building held up to the impact quiet well.  It was that the tanks were full of Jet fuel that burned and heated the supports that caused the failure.  Just sayin

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I guess I need to dig up my pilot hand book before using inertia as an object being held at rest by opposing forces but the machinist hand book was established on the premise that when an object is loaded by a greater force at that moment it establishes the point of inertia in the objects failure. 
If one studies the pictures of the failure of the towers not being engineered to support their roofs and the speed of their collapse it creates a question on if the floor support arrangement could have been flawed.
Since you are a pilot and I am not but being in an experiment with a TU professor on the increasing of speeds of the man operated planes, like when they passed the speed of sound, now approaching speeds of Einstein theory on the forth dimension , where the brain cannot correlate and identify the object before passing it, what do you think will happen?  No I ain’t saw any flying saucers today exceeding the speed of light.       

What "speed of collapse"??  It took almost an hour!  Burning jet fuel!  That steel was never designed to handle those temperatures.

You might be just using antiquated terminology.  Which version of Machinery's Handbook do you have?  I have a copies of the 20th & 23rd editions.  I remember looking in the TU Library many years ago for information on flat belt tracking and crowned pulleys.  I found it in some books from the early 20th Century and some of the terms were a bit different than even in the 1980s.

From the 23rd Edition:
p 129
"Inertia is that property of matter which causes it to resist any change in its motion or state of rest.
Mass is a measure of the inertia of a body."


Of course not, they were gone before they got here.

Edit: 20th rather than 21st Edition. 

How did a conversation about the airport industrial park devolve into the poor engineering that went into the World Trade Center towers?

It’s gone off the rails this far, might as well:

(http://marshallbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Eric_TW.jpg)

This forum needs a "like" or "thanks" function.

This photo makes me sad.  I had a pint glass just like that one and my son knocked it off the counter a couple of months ago and broke it.  :'(

Looking at that photo reminds me of what a robust boy Eric is.  That pint glass looks like a shot glass in his hand.

Yeah, last time at the brewery I noticed that.  Pushing 6'4" I would guess.

Solid German beer master.