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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => National & International Politics => Topic started by: Teatownclown on March 26, 2012, 10:59:06 am



Title: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 26, 2012, 10:59:06 am
Classic remark!

Bravo to Lindsey Graham for doing the right thing!

Quote
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/03/25/451313/lindsey-graham-trayvon-martin/

Graham echoed a White House adviser David Plouffe’s criticism of the GOP candidates. Plouffe called Gingrich’s remarks “reprehensible.” “You can make a decision whether to go out with some shred of dignity or say these irresponsible, reckless things, and he’s clearly chosen the latter path,” he told George Stephonopoulos on ABC’s This Week.

You can take race completely out of the story and the story doesn't change. And Guido, don't go off on the bounty posted by the New Black Panthers because they're wrong too.

Wear your hoodies....."They've been using code words against Obama for nearly four years (no birth certificate, Muslim, etc.), but now we're just seeing hardcore racism without the filter - and misogyny without the euphemisms."


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Quinton on March 26, 2012, 12:25:01 pm
now all hell is breaking loose.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 26, 2012, 12:37:38 pm
That does not bode well for my getting anything done today.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 26, 2012, 02:29:46 pm
Quote
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/26/justice/florida-teen-shooting-poll/

One month after the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, nearly three out of four Americans say the police should arrest the neighborhood watch volunteer who pulled the trigger, according to a new national survey.

"Guns don't kill people, hoodies do..." Geraldo Rivera

(http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/439459/757983.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 26, 2012, 03:41:08 pm
btw, the author of Florida's Stand Your Ground Law said he never contemplated the use of deadly force as an argument for this sort of savagery.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on March 26, 2012, 04:57:20 pm
Tweets from Obama's "son"? (language)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86809463/Trayvon-s-Tweets-the-Daily-Caller

Why can't we wait and see what happened here before everyone, including you Newt, go off?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 26, 2012, 05:53:06 pm
Tweets from Obama's "son"? (language)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86809463/Trayvon-s-Tweets-the-Daily-Caller

Why can't we wait and see what happened here before everyone, including you Newt, go off?

 What do you see in these tweets, Guido?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 26, 2012, 05:57:56 pm
Why can't we wait and see what happened here before everyone, including you Newt, go off?

It's been a month and the 911 calls are (mostly, apparently) public, as are several witness accounts. Even if you would like to wait for the wheels of justice to turn, surely you agree that the shoddiness of the initial investigation is worthy of some outrage.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on March 26, 2012, 05:59:33 pm
What do you see in these tweets, Guido?

Really. How uniquely interesting. A teenager who is horny, talks vulgarity to his friends and listens to rap music. That is unless you are just trying to sully up ones image to people who haven't spent much time around teenagers.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on March 26, 2012, 06:48:27 pm
Really. How uniquely interesting. A teenager who is horny, talks vulgarity to his friends and listens to rap music. That is unless you are just trying to sully up ones image to people who haven't spent much time around teenagers.

Just admiring Barack's son a bit--after all that's what started this thread so take the snot with the tissue. Please, let's not sully this little angel's halo that the media (okay race whores Jackson, Sharpton, etc.) have placed on this horny teenager. Again, let's get the facts out there before we start accusing people of acting "stupidly" like the police or the shooter. Heck, we just found out recently this inadvertently-sullied teen was suspended for weed possession.  I remember when I was in high school that sorta thing happened all the time.  ::)  If this things gets even close to the stupidity of the Duke Lacrosse or Brawley fiascoes, I will be all up in those that convicted the shooter.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 26, 2012, 06:56:11 pm
Please, let's not sully this little angel's halo that the media (okay race whores Jackson, Sharpton, etc.) have placed on this horny teenager. Again, let's get the facts out there before we start accusing people of acting "stupidly" like the police or the shooter. Heck, we just found out recently this inadvertently-sullied teen was suspended for weed possession.  I remember when I was in high school that sorta thing happened all the time.  ::)  If this things gets even close to the stupidity of the Duke Lacrosse or Brawley fiascoes, I will be all up in those that convicted the shooter.

What does any of this have to do with a 17 year old kid being followed and then shot and killed by a 28 year old guy with a hundred pounds on his victim? Oh, right, not a goddamned thing.

Also, please explain what world you inhabit where suggesting that witnesses change their story isn't bad police work.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 26, 2012, 07:33:52 pm
What does any of this have to do with a 17 year old kid being followed and then shot and killed by a 28 year old guy with a hundred pounds on his victim? Oh, right, not a goddamned thing.

Also, please explain what world you inhabit where suggesting that witnesses change their story isn't bad police work.

Easy there Nancy Grace, there’s another side to this story starting to emerge.  I was most definitely aghast that Zimmerman was not already in custody until starting to learn new details in the case.

Quote

Shooter's account

Zimmerman's account emerged for the first time Monday in a report by The Orlando Sentinel. Quoting unidentified "law enforcement authorities," the Sentinel reported that Zimmerman told police that Trayvon Martin knocked him down with a single punch and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times before the shooting — an account that police said witnesses have corroborated.

Zimmerman said he was walking back to his SUV when Martin approached him from behind, according to the Sentinel's report, which Sanford police confirmed Monday afternoon.

The two exchanged words before Martin decked him with a punch to the nose and began beating him, Zimmerman told police. He said he then shot Martin in self-defense.

Witnesses said they heard someone cry out in distress, some of them telling NBC News and other news organizations that it was Martin. But police sources told the Sentinel their evidence indicated it was Zimmerman.

One witness told police he saw Martin pounding Zimmerman on the ground. This witness was certain it was Zimmerman who was crying for help, the Sentinel reported.

When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and had a swollen lip and bloody lacerations to the back of his head, the newspaper reported. Police said Zimmerman wasn't badly injured and didn't seek treatment until the next day.

ABC News reported separately that Zimmerman told police that Martin also tried to take his gun.

In a statement, Sanford police said the Sentinel's report was "consistent with the information provided to the State Attorney's office by the police department." It didn't address the ABC report.

Zimmerman's attorney, Craig Sonner, has said he could invoke Florida's "stand-your-ground" law, which provides significant leeway for people to use deadly force if they feel their lives are in danger.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-thousands-march-in-protest-to-florida-hearing-on-trayvon-martin-slaying


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on March 26, 2012, 07:48:59 pm
Easy there Nancy Grace, there’s another side to this story starting to emerge.  I was most definitely aghast that Zimmerman was not already in custody until starting to learn new details in the case.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-thousands-march-in-protest-to-florida-hearing-on-trayvon-martin-slaying

I'm trying to figure out who Nat is pissed at: the shooter or the police. Sheesh, for all the damned "justice for all" stuff we hear about in this place (the poor get screwed by the rich, the rich have their own justice system, or even those poor bastard OWS getting randomly beaten), you would think--just think--that those civil libertarians around here would want to see ALL the facts. Maybe its just formerly closeted anti-Hispanic outrage seeping through. See, I can jump to a conclusion too. ???


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 26, 2012, 09:37:01 pm
Easy there Nancy Grace, there’s another side to this story starting to emerge.  I was most definitely aghast that Zimmerman was not already in custody until starting to learn new details in the case.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-thousands-march-in-protest-to-florida-hearing-on-trayvon-martin-slaying

Conan, the "according to the Sentinel's report" has no reliable basis. It means nothing.

This is a clear cut case of bad police work. We've seen similar corruption here.

Worse, it's a clear case of vilifying the victim. Shameful...

I think Zimmerman is a nut case with a history of violence and ignoring police. I wouldn't believe a word the police say or what they leak like Martin's suspension from school. I want to see all the evidence which will point towards a teenager being bullied by a bigot and murdered.

Guido, the context you use to make the President's sentiments look anything but compassionate come across as racist.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Breadburner on March 26, 2012, 10:01:00 pm
I'm trying to figure out who Nat is pissed at: the shooter or the police. Sheesh, for all the damned "justice for all" stuff we hear about in this place (the poor get screwed by the rich, the rich have their own justice system, or even those poor bastard OWS getting randomly beaten), you would think--just think--that those civil libertarians around here would want to see ALL the facts. Maybe its just formerly closeted anti-Hispanic outrage seeping through. See, I can jump to a conclusion too. ???

The shingleberry always jumps on the bandwagon.....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: jacobi on March 26, 2012, 10:05:38 pm
The question I have been wondering about this whole thing is, who the HELL goes on neighborhood watch with a gun?  I thought this was the thing that busybody old ladies did on their fannypack-wearing strolls around the school track (no gun in the fanny pack; just an overused tissue and some hard candy).  Any 200lb + dude with a gun who would be roaming around my hood saying he was keeping me safe would be very quickly getting the police called on him.  Make no mistake, not only do I pass the brown paper bag test, I look like there mayor of white guy town.  I would feel really nervous about having some big guy with a gun and something to prove staring people down.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on March 26, 2012, 10:17:59 pm
Any 200lb + dude with a gun who would be roaming around my hood saying he was keeping me safe would be very quickly getting the police called on him. 

I missed the beginning credits.  Did this 200lb + dude live in the neighborhood or was he just someone from across town trying to keep some distant neighborhood safe?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on March 26, 2012, 10:21:51 pm
Conan, the "according to the Sentinel's report" has no reliable basis. It means nothing.

This is a clear cut case of bad police work. We've seen similar corruption here.

Worse, it's a clear case of vilifying the victim. Shameful...

I think Zimmerman is a nut case with a history of violence and ignoring police. I wouldn't believe a word the police say or what they leak like Martin's suspension from school. I want to see all the evidence which will point towards a teenager being bullied by a bigot and murdered.

Guido, the context you use to make the President's sentiments look anything but compassionate come across as racist.

You are the biggest doosh in this forum. How dare you even suggest you know what is compassionate or otherwise. And accusing me of racism? GFY. Any takers in here aox has one of these hanging in his closet?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-martin/cracker-tshirt-759832


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on March 26, 2012, 10:31:12 pm
I missed the beginning credits.  Did this 200lb + dude live in the neighborhood or was he just someone from across town trying to keep some distant neighborhood safe?

Neither. He was some guy that had it out for young, black, innocent teenagers just minding their business. Probably a tea bagger. There. We don't have to worry about pesky facts or more of the story to come out.

One thing is certain. This country's race hustlers best be right and Zimmerman gunned this kid down in cold blood because whatever Richard Jewell got should pale in comparison. And if he did it, you know after that dumb "innocent until proven guilty" thing, then let justice be done.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on March 26, 2012, 11:11:05 pm
If anyone gets the chance take a look at how the Daily Show covered this story.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-returns-with-hoodie-tastic-trayvon-martin-outrage-roundup/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 12:06:27 am
Did this 200lb + dude live in the neighborhood or was he just someone from across town trying to keep some distant neighborhood safe?

He does live in the neighborhood. He called himself the "neighborhood watch" (along with one other guy) and patrolled the neighborhood looking for hoodlums. When talking to the 911 dispatcher he was rather distressed that one of the "bucking coons" might get away again.

It also turned out that Martin was on his cell phone with his girlfriend during part of the incident, but the call was interrupted after Zimmerman confronted Trayvon. The most dispositive evidence I've seen so far is the witness testimony that whatever fight took place did not take place where Martin was shot. Even if Martin did attack Zimmerman earlier, there was no ongoing brawl when he was killed.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on March 27, 2012, 07:10:03 am
I'm sure debate about what actually happened will rage on for some time. However, the police report states that Zimmerman was attacked, and provided evidence as to why they came to that conclusion. That is why he wasn't arrested.

First, I'm not saying that the police were correct in their assessment, but they are humans, and they didn't see it happen. So let's cut the cops some slack. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Second, this smells to me just like the Duke Lacrosse team case. Damn the facts, we have a conclusion to reach. Ironically in that case as well, the defendants acted "stupidly". But until they outlaw stupid, you can't send them to jail for that alone.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 07:46:29 am

I want to see all the evidence which will point towards a teenager being bullied by a bigot and murdered.


Are you serious?!  So just ignore any evidence contrary to your preconceived notion because you are that bent on the idea that Zimmerman is a bigot?  

At what point did we decide we want to abdicate jurisprudence to the news media and a couple of corrupt preachers who have never passed on an opportunity to get more air time for the sake of fanning the flames of racial divide?

Anyone remember how up in arms people were when Casey Anthony was acquitted?  Just because Nancy Grace says someone is guilty or should be found guilty doesn’t mean they are.  We need to quit trying cases on tabloid TV and allow the justice system to do the job it was designed to do.

That said, if there was a gross miscarriage of justice in this instance, then the Sanford PD and the prosecutor with jurisdiction in the case need to come under fire and some people probably need to lose their job.  

Until we know more about ALL the evidence in this case, and it sounds like there is, reaching a conclusion one way or the other is impossible.  I’d reached a conclusion that Zimmerman should have been arrested.  Now I’m not sure.

If Zimmerman was the aggressor and was pursuing Martin, Martin had a right to think he was in danger and to protect himself, ironically under the stand your ground law that the PD has cited for Zimmerman not being arrested.  However, if it was a simple case of Zimmerman asking what this kid was doing wandering his neighborhood and Martin went nuts on him, the law is on Zimmerman’s side.  I’m going to reserve further judgement until the Sanford PD pulls it’s head out of it’s donkey and diffuses the situation one way or another.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 08:17:34 am
Are you serious?!  So just ignore any evidence contrary to your preconceived notion because you are that bent on the idea that Zimmerman is a bigot?  

At what point did we decide we want to abdicate jurisprudence to the news media and a couple of corrupt preachers who have never passed on an opportunity to get more air time for the sake of fanning the flames of racial divide?

Anyone remember how up in arms people were when Casey Anthony was acquitted?  Just because Nancy Grace says someone is guilty or should be found guilty doesn’t mean they are.  We need to quit trying cases on tabloid TV and allow the justice system to do the job it was designed to do.

That said, if there was a gross miscarriage of justice in this instance, then the Sanford PD and the prosecutor with jurisdiction in the case need to come under fire and some people probably need to lose their job.  

Until we know more about ALL the evidence in this case, and it sounds like there is, reaching a conclusion one way or the other is impossible.  I’d reached a conclusion that Zimmerman should have been arrested.  Now I’m not sure.

If Zimmerman was the aggressor and was pursuing Martin, Martin had a right to think he was in danger and to protect himself, ironically under the stand your ground law that the PD has cited for Zimmerman not being arrested.  However, if it was a simple case of Zimmerman asking what this kid was doing wandering his neighborhood and Martin went nuts on him, the law is on Zimmerman’s side.  I’m going to reserve further judgement until the Sanford PD pulls it’s head out of it’s donkey and diffuses the situation one way or another.
 

I am also starting to doubt my initial conclusions.  Apparently there was another call to 911 and a witness that watched the events from a window. Orlando Sentinel "One witness, who has since talked to television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin on top, pounding him" and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

The cops report that Martin was shot at very close or point blank range.

Apparently the scuffle was quite loud and in an open residential area.  I'm willing to bet there is actually more than one witness that will emerge.

We have no right to try this case in the media because that almost always renders a failure of justice. It would be very unwise for any politician to adopt for political means a tragedy like this until all the evidence has been presented and justice served.

Unfortunately, regardless of the outcome, Jackson & Sharpton have again set back race relations at least 50 years.  Black Panther members are tweeting Zimmerman's home address with the message "you know what to do!" and the blogosphere is full of threats and hate.  




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 08:30:07 am
Ironically, had this been a confrontation between a white male and Zimmerman with Zimmerman at the wrong end of the muzzle, it would have been “racist" because Zimmerman is Hispanic.  Actually sounds like Jewish Hispanic, but I digress...

Who here honestly doesn’t look twice when you see a young black male wearing droopy jeans and a hoodie walking toward you in a parking lot?  Is that racism, or simply being vigilant and aware of your surroundings?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Townsend on March 27, 2012, 08:31:08 am
I've noticed a change in course on my SM feeds.  Even news agencies are having a hard time deciding which wagon to hitch up to.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 08:32:07 am
I've noticed a change in course on my SM feeds.  Even news agencies are having a hard time deciding which wagon to hitch up to.

They shouldn’t be having such a quandary if they were reporting facts.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Townsend on March 27, 2012, 08:36:04 am
They shouldn’t be having such a quandary if they were reporting facts.

You watch the news lately?  2 minutes of "facts" and 21 minutes of information about a product/project in the same company.  (NBC talking about Housewives, etc.)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 08:41:07 am
Won't change a thing for Sharpton, Jackson, and the Panthers.  For them, Martin is beyond any guilt, Zimmerman is white.

If it is found that Martin did indeed attack Zimmerman, and the law rules in favor of Zimmerman.  There will be riots.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on March 27, 2012, 08:50:18 am
Won't change a thing for Sharpton, Jackson, and the Panthers.  For them, Martin is beyond any guilt, Zimmerman is white.

If it is found that Martin did indeed attack Zimmerman, and the law rules in favor of Zimmerman.  There will be riots.



Zimmerman had to be arrested.  There was enough (and still is enough) compelling evidence to necessitate an investigation.  We wouldn't have gotten to these possibly exculpatory witnesses without what's come before, which is mass protests.  That includes but is not limited to actions by your most despised black preachers.   


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on March 27, 2012, 08:52:07 am
Ironically, had this been a confrontation between a white male and Zimmerman with Zimmerman at the wrong end of the muzzle, it would have been “racist" because Zimmerman is Hispanic.  Actually sounds like Jewish Hispanic, but I digress...

Who here honestly doesn’t look twice when you see a young black male wearing droopy jeans and a hoodie walking toward you in a parking lot?  Is that racism, or simply being vigilant and aware of your surroundings?

In fact, you can be both vigilant and racist and I think you just nailed it.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on March 27, 2012, 08:54:01 am
Who here honestly doesn’t look twice when you see a young black male wearing droopy jeans and a hoodie walking toward you in a parking lot?  Is that racism, or simply being vigilant and aware of your surroundings?

You're not racist, you, like me, judge people based on how they present themselves regardless of race. If you dress like a gangster, I will assume you are until proved otherwise. It's just that dressing like this leads me not to want to get to find out what is the truth. If you were dressed professionally I am far more likely to converse with you. It is the way it is.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on March 27, 2012, 09:16:23 am
You're not racist, you, like me, judge people based on how they present themselves regardless of race. If you dress like a gangster, I will assume you are until proved otherwise. It's just that dressing like this leads me not to want to get to find out what is the truth. If you were dressed professionally I am far more likely to converse with you. It is the way it is.

Now THAT'S a realistic expectation.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on March 27, 2012, 09:31:59 am
Wonder were I can get me one of those "Pu**y A** Cracker" shirts with Zimmermans face on it. Their selling like hot cakes in Sanford & Son Florida. But thats Ok because thats not racist, just a black mans opinion, Right ?

Try printing "Punk A** Ni**er" and wear that around. See how far down the block you get ? And you can put Jackson, Sharpton or Farrakahn's face on there. Perfect examples of non racist this generation has ever seen.

Why has it taken a Month for all this to blow up ? And don't give me this he had a hundred pounds on him. Not all big guy's know how to fight. They list the kid at 6.2 140. G.Z. should be arrested and charged but not for murder. It will probably play out as second degree manslaughter.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 09:37:21 am
Wonder were I can get me one of those "Pu**y A** Cracker" shirts with Zimmermans face on it. Their selling like hot cakes in Sanford & Son Florida. But thats Ok because thats not racist, just a black mans opinion, Right ?

Try printing "Punk A** Ni**er" and wear that around. See how far down the block you get ? And you can put Jackson, Sharpton or Farrakahn's face on there. Perfect examples of non racist this generation has ever seen.

Why has it taken a Month for all this to blow up ? And don't give me this he had a hundred pounds on him. Not all big guy's know how to fight. They list the kid at 6.2 140. G.Z. should be arrested and charged but not for murder. It will probably play out as second degree manslaughter.

They are going to get sued.  Trayvon's mother has trademarked his name and the "Justice for Trayvon" phrase as well as several others.

(http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmermanshirtlarge.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 09:38:03 am
Zimmerman had to be arrested.  There was enough (and still is enough) compelling evidence to necessitate an investigation.  We wouldn't have gotten to these possibly exculpatory witnesses without what's come before, which is mass protests.  That includes but is not limited to actions by your most despised black preachers.   

You are missing the first point that Zimmerman has rights as well as Martin did.  If all appearances and evidence suggested at the time that Zimmerman had been attacked and he reacted legally and appropriately according to the law, they had no right to arrest him.  Secondly, it’s not for us to decide.  Unless you investigated the crime scene, it’s impossible and very dangerous to convict someone through media accounts and racially-charged rhetoric. 

There obviously were exculpatory witnesses in the first place, which appears to be why Zimmerman has never been arrested.  Apparently those accounts helped form the basis for reasoning that this fell under Florida’s Stand Your Ground law.

The reason this gained traction is someone squawked loud enough that this was the result of racial profiling in absence of looking at all the facts prior to making such a claim, therefore it MUST be profiling and racism!  What is becoming obvious here is $harpton and Jacka$$ need some sort of event like this every few months to keep them relevant.

If it’s eventually determined Zimmerman instigated the confrontation and Martin was defending himself, I hope Zimmerman receives just and swift punishment. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 09:42:02 am
They are going to get sued.  Trayvon's mother has trademarked his name and the "Justice for Trayvon" phrase as well as several others.

(http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmermanshirtlarge.jpg)

If this guy approached any one of you in the Promenade parking garage, would you not be on point?

Explain to me how that’s racist. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on March 27, 2012, 09:43:17 am
Yep. Upstanding citizen in the community and I'm sure he's gainfully employed.......Whoops, that's racial profiling


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 09:56:42 am
If this guy approached any one of you in the Promenade parking garage, would you not be on point?

Explain to me how that’s racist. 

I don't know anything about this guy.  He could be a youth minister.  Unfortunately, because I don't know anything about him I must rely on my instincts, experience, and habituation.  At first glance, I would regard him with caution. 





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 09:57:41 am
It would be a more appropriate tee shirt if it had a picture of the Sanford PD badge on it....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on March 27, 2012, 10:31:34 am
If this guy approached any one of you in the Promenade parking garage, would you not be on point?

Explain to me how that’s racist. 

That guy has nothing to do with what actually happened and has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.  He's just a dude with a t-shirt.

Zimmerman actually approached Martin. In fact, he followed Martin for quite a ways.  Martin was wearing a nondescript hoodie, not some crazy epithet-strewn protest shirt.  I don't know if his pants were saggy or if he was wearing a sideways Oakland cap.  I don't know if he was smoking a blunt or sipping malt liquor or carrying a boombox or wearing bright orange Timberland boots or doing anything else that might be quintessentially "urban" or "gangster."  It's actually immaterial.  Zimmerman followed him and then engaged. 

There is no law anywhere in the United States that allows an armed neighborhood watch captain to stalk and then engage with someone because they look suspicious.  That's not standing your ground, that's vigilantism. 

But that's just my take from what I've read, and I've not examined all the evidence nor am I law enforcement or a lawyer so I'm limited in what I know.  But I can tell you that even contradictory witnesses (some of which are exculpatory) should not allow the police to let Zimmerman go when there's a dead boy involved.  There should be a trial because it's obvious that one is warranted. Notice I didn't say "there should be a hanging," or "there should be a witchhunt."  There should be a trial to determine if Zimmerman did in fact do what it seems he did.  If he didn't, so be it.  Let him free.  If he did, he should pay for it.   


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on March 27, 2012, 11:23:35 am
The question I have been wondering about this whole thing is, who the HELL goes on neighborhood watch with a gun?
Someone like this?  

"He had enrolled, dropped out and re-enrolled in Seminole Community College classes, seeking to earn an associates degree that he hoped would lead to employment as a law enforcement officer.  Witnesses also have said that he'd gone around the neighborhood warning residents to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders." http://www.thebradentontimes.com/news/2012/03/25/opinion/sanford_tragedy_highlights_new_problems_with_stand_your_ground_law


Unfortunately, because I don't know anything about him I must rely on my instincts, experience, and habituation.  At first glance, I would regard him with caution.

...which sounds perfectly reasonable, however, the killer apparently went beyond "caution" by chasing the victim down with a gun.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 11:36:52 am
I'm sure debate about what actually happened will rage on for some time. However, the police report states that Zimmerman was attacked, and provided evidence as to why they came to that conclusion. That is why he wasn't arrested.

That evidence being Zimmerman's accounting of the facts, which is contradicted by both reason (he got out of the car to check the name of the street in his own neighborhood?) and the eyewitness testimony of the people who live at the residence behind which Martin was shot.

As for the rest, pretty much what wevus said. ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: custosnox on March 27, 2012, 11:48:56 am
That evidence being Zimmerman's accounting of the facts, which is contradicted by both reason (he got out of the car to check the name of the street in his own neighborhood?) and the eyewitness testimony of the people who live at the residence behind which Martin was shot.

As for the rest, pretty much what wevus said. ;)
I've had to look at the street sign to see where I was at in my own neighborhood when calling things in.  Just because you know every street in the neighborhood by what houses are on it, who lives there, what is going on and what is usual for it doesn't mean you know the name of the street.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on March 27, 2012, 11:57:48 am
That evidence being Zimmerman's accounting of the facts, which is contradicted by both reason (he got out of the car to check the name of the street in his own neighborhood?) and the eyewitness testimony of the people who live at the residence behind which Martin was shot.

As for the rest, pretty much what wevus said. ;)

So by reason, you mean your reason over the police's reason. I'll still take first hand accounts over what you think should be any day of the week.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 27, 2012, 12:09:39 pm
I read today that Zimmerman had personally called the cops 41 times in 2012 alone. That is some neighborhood watch. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on March 27, 2012, 12:17:51 pm
So by reason, you mean your reason over the police's reason. I'll still take first hand accounts over what you think should be any day of the week.

You're going to some pretty extreme lengths to argue that justice WOULDN'T be served by a trial.  You seem to think Zimmerman is entirely innocent regardless of some of the inconsistencies and fishiness of what happened.  


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on March 27, 2012, 12:30:02 pm
I read today that Zimmerman had personally called the cops 41 times in 2012 alone. That is some neighborhood watch. 

Damn. I never heard of a gated hood.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 12:32:53 pm
I'll still take first hand accounts over what you think should be any day of the week.

I applaud you. So many people are too busy listening to bullshit about this and everything else. You might want to listen to the 911 tapes (http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html). Or hear the account of the women who live in the condo behind which Martin was shot, in which they heard no fight prior to the gunshot. Or the other witnesses who stated that they had been coached by the police the night of the shooting.

custosnox, there are 3 streets in the neighborhood.

http://g.co/maps/na62k


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 12:41:44 pm
So by reason, you mean your reason over the police's reason. I'll still take first hand accounts over what you think should be any day of the week.

Pee Eye GEE! Zimmerman hunted and killed a child. After being specifically told NOT to pursue him. He handled his duty to the neighborhood by reporting "suspicious" behavior to the authorities. The facts are in. A grown donkey man hunted and murdered a child in cold blood against the order of a police dispatcher who passed the information along to the proper authorities. The (disputed) fact that Trayvon (may or may not) have gotten some blows in on his predator are irrelevant. Very simply stated, don't start no sh!t, won't be no sh!t. Call 5-0, go back in the house. Period. End of story.

(http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/36579/758710.jpg)

watch out for these hoods....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 12:52:14 pm
New news: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-detective-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3IMRl50loc

Mind the stupid auto-playing video ABC seems to love so much.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on March 27, 2012, 01:01:20 pm
I applaud you. So many people are too busy listening to bullshit about this and everything else. You might want to listen to the 911 tapes (http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html). Or hear the account of the women who live in the condo behind which Martin was shot, in which they heard no fight prior to the gunshot. Or the other witnesses who stated that they had been coached by the police the night of the shooting.

custosnox, there are 3 streets in the neighborhood.

http://g.co/maps/na62k

I guess I am just tired of everyone voicing their opinion as fact. Give the cops the benefit of the doubt. If the rules are flawed, it's not their fault. Zimmerman probably is a screw loose, but if he didn't do anything illegal, he didn't do anything illegal. If you don't like the rules, try to change them. The cops operate within the bounds of the law, whatever they may be. I think everyone on here just needs to reserve judgement.

Do you see that because I say what I said I am somehow for Zimmerman/against Martin. I said nothing to indicate that. I just said we need to trust law enforcement over the network news.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 01:04:48 pm
The reason this gained traction is someone squawked loud enough that this was the result of racial profiling in absence of looking at all the facts prior to making such a claim, therefore it MUST be profiling and racism!  What is becoming obvious here is $harpton and Jacka$$ need some sort of event like this every few months to keep them relevant.

Missed this gem earlier. You might want to read up about the evolution of this case. Your unfavorite black preachers had nothing to do with it. It was pretty much immediately a "thing" in Florida.

As far as racist shirts go, it's a lot different being called a cracker when you're not subject to mundane racism week in and week out than being called a n-word when you are. I wonder how many of the dismissive folk would be dismissive if it were a 17 year old white kid. What's even more amazing is how many people have fallen for Stormfront's fake pictures. This victim blaming smile is getting old.

erfalf, I don't trust law enforcement in cities that have a history of having a racial component to their policing. Nor do I trust law enforcement when they try to change witness' stories. Nor do I trust law enforcement when they drug test the dead guy but not the one that shot him. Is it not possible in your worldview that police sometimes don't do the right thing despite all the evidence to the contrary, even right here at home?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 01:11:30 pm
I guess I am just tired of everyone voicing their opinion as fact. Give the cops the benefit of the doubt. If the rules are flawed, it's not their fault. Zimmerman probably is a screw loose, but if he didn't do anything illegal, he didn't do anything illegal. If you don't like the rules, try to change them. The cops operate within the bounds of the law, whatever they may be. I think everyone on here just needs to reserve judgement.

Do you see that because I say what I said I am somehow for Zimmerman/against Martin. I said nothing to indicate that. I just said we need to trust law enforcement over the network news.

Don't trust law enforcement....there's no benefit of the doubt for them because they work for the public good (supposedly)that's the reason the right wingnuts/NRA came up with these new wave laws....

btw, last time I checked murder is illegal.

( I just heard Zimmerman was going to change his name and identity....to Dylan) :o


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on March 27, 2012, 01:11:51 pm
erfalf, I don't trust law enforcement in cities that have a history of having a racial component to their policing. Nor do I trust law enforcement when they try to change witness' stories. Nor do I trust law enforcement when they drug test the dead guy but not the one that shot him. Is it not possible in your worldview that police sometimes don't do the right thing despite all the evidence to the contrary, even right here at home?

I understand, that is why we pay attention, and bring up what we think are injustices. However, you have got to agree that this has gotten way, way, WAY out of hand. But in general, I do give them the benefit of the doubt. I know several, and they are all above reproach. Maybe I am a bit jaded and believe that most people are good. Maybe that is my blinder.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 01:21:39 pm
I understand, that is why we pay attention, and bring up what we think are injustices. However, you have got to agree that this has gotten way, way, WAY out of hand. But in general, I do give them the benefit of the doubt. I know several, and they are all above reproach. Maybe I am a bit jaded and believe that most people are good. Maybe that is my blinder.

I agree that individually most police officers are perfectly fine people. The problem is generally a few bad apples making use of the institution for corrupt ends. The other problem is the unintentionally racist effect of policing decisions that are generally made without racist intent, but that's not really relevant to this particular conversation.

Well, that and jackasses like Zimmerman who seem to think all black people are threatening.

Edited to add: Again, I think Zimmerman should get his day in court. The problem is that, thus far, there's been no interest on the part of prosecutors to actually take this thing to a court of law, where it belongs. People absolutely should have the right to defend themselves, even with deadly force if necessary. I have no qualms about that. It does disturb me that some people think that there should be no consequences at all for such an action, though. Clearly, in any such case a thorough investigation needs to be made and in most cases where it's not completely clear cut, a trial probably needs to take place.

Yes, that's a hassle. I expect people who kill other people to have to deal with some amount of hassle. It kinda comes with the territory. It seems that prosecutors in Florida pretty much don't prosecute cases that have even a remote chance of being covered by the SYG law.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 01:31:44 pm
I guess I am just tired of everyone voicing their opinion as fact. Give the cops the benefit of the doubt. If the rules are flawed, it's not their fault. Zimmerman probably is a screw loose, but if he didn't do anything illegal, he didn't do anything illegal. If you don't like the rules, try to change them. The cops operate within the bounds of the law, whatever they may be. I think everyone on here just needs to reserve judgement.

Do you see that because I say what I said I am somehow for Zimmerman/against Martin. I said nothing to indicate that. I just said we need to trust law enforcement over the network news.

Exactly.  

I am willing to bet that both parties engaged in activities that were not within the bounds of the law.  Like most, this is not a black & white issue (no pun).  

There is indeed an interesting case study on racism here though.  Taking sides in this case without adequate information indicates a belief that inherent traits in a racial group justifies discrimination for or against that group.  In this case we see a large group of people immediately siding with one group regardless of contrary information or due process of law. For them, this case has already been decided on the basis of race, and no evidence to the contrary will change that.  

As the days pass and more evidence unfolds, we may indeed see violence. Racism equals ignorance, and when a racist is confronted with facts that contradict his/her justification for discrimination and interpretation of justice based on that discrimination, anger is the typical response, and in the absence of reason becomes violence.






Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 01:33:38 pm
OUCH!!

Quote
Former NAACP leader C.L. Bryant is accusing Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of “exploiting” the Trayvon Martin tragedy to “racially divide this country.

“His family should be outraged at the fact that they’re using this child as the bait to inflame racial passions,” Rev. C.L. Bryant said in a Monday interview with The Daily Caller.

The conservative black pastor who was once the chapter president of the Garland, Texas NAACP called Jackson and Sharpton “race hustlers” and said they are “acting as though they are buzzards circling the carcass of this young boy.”

Jackson, for example, recently said Martin’s death shows how “blacks are under attack” and “targeting, arresting, convicting blacks and ultimately killing us is big business.”  (SEE ALSO: Jesse Jackson says Trayvon Martin ‘murdered and martyred’)

George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain, killed Martin, a 17-year-old black man who was unarmed at the time of his death, last month. Zimmerman has claimed to have shot Martin in self-defense and has not been charged with a crime.

But Bryant, who explores the topic of black-on-black crime in his new film “Runaway Slave,” said people like Jackson and Sharpton are being misleading to suggest there is an epidemic of “white men killing black young men.”

“The epidemic is truly black on black crime,” Bryant said. “The greatest danger to the lives of young black men are young black men.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/#ixzz1qLa8V52Z

And more ridiculousness from Nate’s source:

Quote
About 200 to 250 protesters gathered in front of the Justice Department today to demand the Justice Department to charge Zimmerman with a federal hate crime.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-detective-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3IU8mCUfr-

Aren’t we, in a civilized nation, against mob justice?

I definitely want the cops to exhaust every effort to either clear Zimmerman’s name or bring justice for Martin’s death.  I have yet to read or hear anything made public which makes this clear cut either way, so I’m pretty surprised at all the people drawing finite conclusions.  

Wevus, if the prosecutors say Zimmerman was justified under stand your ground and that there’s not enough evidence for first degree manslaughter, then there simply is not enough.  God only knows the pressure these people are under.  I’m sure they would just as soon bring charges to get the angry masses to calm down, but that is not a just nor legal reason to bring charges on someone under our system of law.  


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 01:33:52 pm
Exactly.  

I am willing to bet that both parties engaged in activities that were not within the bounds of the law.  Like most, this is not a black & white issue (no pun).  

There is indeed an interesting case study on racism here though.  Taking sides in this case without adequate information indicates a belief that inherent traits in a racial group justifies discrimination for or against that group.  In this case we see a large group of people immediately siding with one group regardless of contrary information or due process of law. For them, this case has already been decided on the basis of race, and no evidence to the contrary will change that.  

As the days pass and more evidence unfolds, we may indeed see violence. Racism equals ignorance, and when a racist is confronted with facts that contradict his/her justification for discrimination and interpretation of justice based on that discrimination, anger is the typical response, and in the absence of reason becomes violence.






GRUNT!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 01:36:32 pm
Conan, when there is no justice how can you say "mob justice?"

Everyone's starting to show their true colors....again! :-*


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 01:37:12 pm
Conan, when there is no justice how can you say "no justice?"

Everyone's starting to show their true colors....again! :-*

Indeed.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 01:39:09 pm
Indeed.

fix my quote.....
Quote
when there is no justice how can you say "mob justice?"


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 01:43:06 pm
Conan, when there is no justice how can you say "mob justice?"

Everyone's starting to show their true colors....again! :-*

You don’t think the NBP advertising a $10,000 reward for Zimmerman’s “capture”, 10,000 people descending on Sanford demanding his arrest, or  people protesting for prosecution under federal hate crime laws isn’t a form of idealized mob justice?

You suppose the three black guys who capped the white Mississippi college student will be brought up on hate crime charges when they are caught?

Interesting, seems everyone has forgotten Zimmerman, whether he’s guilty of a crime or not, has rights too.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 01:49:52 pm
So, you do not think this suspect should be arrested for murder?
Stop with your false equivalencies already....
Being tried by a jury is the test....Zimmerman's arrest is being withheld by an inept police department.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 01:53:54 pm
fix my quote.....

Quote
when there is no justice how can you say "mob justice?"

There has been no trial, except in the minds of those who would deal justice based on authority they derive from the mob.

Quick justice is passionate and dangerous.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on March 27, 2012, 01:57:26 pm
if the prosecutors say Zimmerman was justified under stand your ground and that there’s not enough evidence for first degree manslaughter, then there simply is not enough.


"We're not talking about a prosecutor, a judge or a jury. We're talking about a law enforcement officer deciding that those people don't need to weigh in because charges need not be filed. They alone have determined that something as potentially serious as taking another human being's life is justified by way of this (Stand Your Ground) vague threshold"


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 01:58:19 pm
Looks like some of our ardent (fill in the blank) don't want any trial....because it would have been brought on by Mob mentality. That's quite a stretch in justice, don't you think?
There seems some discomfort over confronting the enduring role of racism in America....

Why's that?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 02:01:52 pm
For them, this case has already been decided on the basis of race, and no evidence to the contrary will change that.  

Hey, keep on making smile up if it makes you feel better. Most people I've seen have been calling for a trial, not an immediate lynching. Go figure.

I'm still not sure why the idea of the criminal justice system doing its thing is so threatening to a certain segment of society.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 02:02:19 pm
So, you do not think this suspect should be arrested for murder?
Stop with your false equivalencies already....
Being tried by a jury is the test....Zimmerman's arrest is being withheld by an inept police department.

In my opinion, Zimmerman should probably be tried for manslaughter.

Problem is, at least to this point, those who have the most facts in the case (not you, not I, not the media) say charges are unwarranted, per his rights under Florida law. 

I’d hope my rights are never usurped by public opinion, how about you?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 02:03:51 pm

"We're not talking about a prosecutor, a judge or a jury. We're talking about a law enforcement officer deciding that those people don't need to weigh in because charges need not be filed. They alone have determined that something as potentially serious as taking another human being's life is justified by way of this (Stand Your Ground) vague threshold"

You need to read further into this.  Apparently, the prosecutor has refused to file charges.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 02:05:52 pm
In my opinion, Zimmerman should probably be tried for manslaughter.

Problem is, at least to this point, those who have the most facts in the case (not you, not I, not the media) say charges are unwarranted, per his rights under Florida law. 

I’d hope my rights are never usurped by public opinion, how about you?

I would agree.  He will also most certainly face quite a civil battle.

I anticipate a change in Florida law based on this incident and perhaps a change in several states.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 02:07:36 pm
I’d hope my rights are never usurped by public opinion, how about you?

I would hope that the police would make a full investigation that didn't include witness tampering if you did ever shoot and kill someone. I also hope you would get a fair trial.

And Gaspar, please stop making smile up. Victim blaming just makes you look like a dolt.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on March 27, 2012, 02:08:09 pm
I’d hope my rights are never usurped by public opinion, how about you?

What if you wanted to exercise your right to express an opinion, and someone else's opinion was that some vague curfew law trumped that right?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 02:09:36 pm
 

I’d hope my rights are never usurped by public opinion a corrupt and inept police department, how about crackers?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 02:11:41 pm
I would hope that the police would make a full investigation that didn't include witness tampering if you did ever shoot and kill someone. I also hope you would get a fair trial.

And Gaspar, please stop making smile up. Victim blaming just makes you look like a dolt.

Where am I blaming the victim?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 02:27:12 pm
Where am I blaming the victim?

I don't know, saying the victim did something illegal when there's no evidence of that other than the testimony of the guy who shot him.

And Conan, no, I don't think demanding that Zimmerman be arrested is mob justice. I think demanding that he be convicted without a trial would be, however. Luckily, I haven't seen anyone ask for that. Only that he be treated like almost every other murder or manslaughter suspect.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 02:33:23 pm
I don't know, saying the victim did something illegal when there's no evidence of that other than the testimony of the guy who shot him.

And Conan, no, I don't think demanding that Zimmerman be arrested is mob justice. I think demanding that he be convicted without a trial would be, however. Luckily, I haven't seen anyone ask for that. Only that he be treated like almost every other murder or manslaughter suspect.

But apparently, by Florida law, there is not enough evidence to consider him a murder or manslaughter “suspect” at this point.  Personally, I think he’s a manslaughter suspect, but it’s not my call and I don’t have near enough evidence nor a grasp on Florida law to make such a call.

"...he be treated like almost every other murder or manslaughter suspect" Do you think every person who kills another should have to stand trial regardless of circumstances?  You said almost "every other” should there be varying treatment of suspects?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 02:45:20 pm
I don't know, saying the victim did something illegal when there's no evidence of that other than the testimony of the guy who shot him.

Those are your words.  My words were:
Quote
I am willing to bet that both parties engaged in activities that were not within the bounds of the law.

Perhaps you are correct and Zimmerman's broken nose and wounds were self inflicted or somehow in conspiracy with law enforcement.

The evidence seems to suggest, however, that their was a confrontation that resulted in assault, and corroborate the reported whiteness statements.  So my comment was only based on that.  My assumption may be wrong, and I am willing to accept that.

There will be a grand jury on this and I'm sure we will get a much clearer picture of the events that led up to the tragedy.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 02:47:27 pm
But apparently, by Florida law, there is not enough evidence to consider him a murder or manslaughter “suspect” at this point.  Personally, I think he’s a manslaughter suspect, but it’s not my call and I don’t have near enough evidence nor a grasp on Florida law to make such a call.

People are regularly arrested on less. Also, AIUI, the Florida SYG law is an affirmative defense. You must raise it in court. There is no question that Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. Zimmerman admitted it to the police officers when they arrived on scene. Hence, he should be arrested and charged with the appropriate crime. If it went down the way I think it went down, it's murder one. Premeditation only requires a few seconds. Manslaughter would be a lot easier to prove since it doesn't require criminal intent (again, AIUI).

Quote
"...he be treated like almost every other murder or manslaughter suspect" Do you think every person who kills another should have to stand trial regardless of circumstances?  You said almost "every other” should there be varying treatment of suspects?

Pretty much, yes. Anybody who kills another should probably stand trial. It's serious business. Now, I also think that the public defender's office should be far better funded so that even poor folks who kill other people can get a competent defense. (not that PDs are generally incompetent, they're just massively overworked in most places)

The almost was there to account for the relatively high frequency of people invoking SYG and never getting prosecuted even when they follow people for several blocks and gun them down. That's the sick part; this isn't even the first time this has happened in Florida since their SYG law was passed.

To reiterate, I'm strongly in favor of people being allowed to defend themselves, even with deadly force, if they are attacked by another and placed in fear of their life (or are defending another person so attacked). However, I think that any such situations should be treated very seriously and should always go to trial, barring clear and convincing evidence otherwise. (say video/audio of the entire incident that makes it perfectly clear who was the aggressor) The killing of another human being is serious business and should be treated as such no matter who the victim is and no matter who the perpetrator is.

Edited to add: Gaspar, even if Martin attacked Zimmerman, Zimmerman shot Martin when no attack was taking place, unless the witnesses are lying. Under Florida law, that invalidates the SYG defense. Also, I'm not sure how Zimmerman shot Martin while they were in mutual combat and Martin ended up face down. I'm sure stranger things have happened, though.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 27, 2012, 03:03:55 pm


Edited to add: Gaspar, even if Martin attacked Zimmerman, Zimmerman shot Martin when no attack was taking place, unless the witnesses are lying. Under Florida law, that invalidates the SYG defense. Also, I'm not sure how Zimmerman shot Martin while they were in mutual combat and Martin ended up face down. I'm sure stranger things have happened, though.

You have a valid point there, and accounts of the incident reported in the papers are vague at best.  That is precisly why attempts to try this in the media or our own heads is wrong.  Zimmerman may indeed be guilty of 3rd degree murder.  Martin may be guilty of assault.  Just because we have the internets does not give us the necessary information or authority to decide the case.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 03:07:59 pm
You have a valid point there, and accounts of the incident reported in the papers are vague at best.  That is precisly why attempts to try this in the media or our own heads is wrong.  Zimmerman may indeed be guilty of 3rd degree murder.  Martin may be guilty of assault.  Just because we have the internets does not give us the necessary information or authority to decide the case.

Nobody is saying we should be the jury, Gaspar, only that Zimmerman stand trial. And once again, the 911 tapes and witness accounts paint a complete enough picture to say that there should be a trial.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 27, 2012, 03:13:19 pm
Nathan, that’s the point of SYG laws: you will not have the burden and expense of having to go to trial for legally defending yourself.  Why should you have to if someone jumped you and SWMBO in front of your house or walking down 15th St. with what you felt at the time was a clear intent to harm or kill one or both of you?

I look at it this way: if I catch someone lurking around outside my house or my neighbor’s house after dark, looking in windows, etc. I ask what they are doing, and they charge at me, I’m sure as hell within my right to defend myself.  The law is on my side in a case like that. 

I really don’t have a problem with the apparent aftermath of this case- as far as it being claimed as self-defense based on the physical evidence on Zimmerman.  Where I’m murky on this is whether or not Zimmerman instigated physical contact with Martin.  If it is as Zimmerman says: he was attacked while trying to re-enter his vehicle and he’d not laid a hand on Martin, then I can see where this is justified.  If he laid first fist on Martin, or collared him, he’s screwed.

And, no not really a mystery at all how Martin wound up face down if, in fact, he was shot while he was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the pavement.

IMO, Gaspar has made the first sensible comment I’ve heard since this story broke: let the grand jury do what it’s supposed to do.  Sounds as if both men may have made a grave mistake that night.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 03:41:28 pm
Nathan, that’s the point of SYG laws: you will not have the burden and expense of having to go to trial for legally defending yourself.  Why should you have to if someone jumped you and SWMBO in front of your house or walking down 15th St. with what you felt at the time was a clear intent to harm or kill one or both of you?

I look at it this way: if I catch someone lurking around outside my house or my neighbor’s house after dark, looking in windows, etc. I ask what they are doing, and they charge at me, I’m sure as hell within my right to defend myself.  The law is on my side in a case like that.  

The law is on your side even without SYG in your second hypothetical. The castle doctrine covers the situation just fine.

As I said earlier, I think that if you kill someone, you should stand trial. I don't think that laws that make it less of a hassle to kill other human beings are really the right way to go. As I said earlier, I'm also strongly in favor of better funding for PDs offices so that it isn't in fact an expensive proposition. Moreover, the hassle factor will hopefully cause some people to choose to retreat instead of killing others. I think that's an unmitigated good thing. Yeah, it sucks, but at least you're alive to tell your tale, no?

Oh, and again, unless the witnesses are lying, Martin was absolutely not on top of Zimmerman at the time he was shot. In fact, the witnesses stated that Zimmerman was on top of (the face down) Martin within a few seconds of the gunshot.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 09:17:16 pm

The cops operate within the bounds of the law, whatever they may be.



Short side-track here...

You really believe that?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 09:22:16 pm
Don't trust law enforcement....there's no benefit of the doubt for them because they work for the public good (supposedly)that's the reason the right wingnuts/NRA came up with these new wave laws....


Wow!  What a shame...you got SO close with the first part of that sentence, then just after the parenthesis, completely went off the tracks and down the path of the crazy train.  So sad.

Cops have no obligation to 'protect' anyone - that is not the major component of their job.  And like the old saying goes about police 'protection'...only minutes away, when seconds count.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 09:35:15 pm

I am willing to bet that both parties engaged in activities that were not within the bounds of the law.  Like most, this is not a black & white issue (no pun).  

There is indeed an interesting case study on racism here though.  Taking sides in this case without adequate information indicates a belief that inherent traits in a racial group justifies discrimination for or against that group.  In this case we see a large group of people immediately siding with one group regardless of contrary information or due process of law. For them, this case has already been decided on the basis of race, and no evidence to the contrary will change that.  


Possibly.  But it was not an issue that was any business of Zimmerman's to address beyond calling 911.  Another thing my concealed carry class taught was that the actions of another who is not directly affecting me, as in physical threat, is no business of mine.  Even if someone else was being threatened with deadly force, it becomes a potentially very questionable thing to react with deadly force.  (Example was if you came around a corner and saw someone getting ready to stab another...which one was on offense and which on defense?)

Adequate information for at least one conclusion is more than adequately available from the 911 call.  The 911 operator specifically told Zimmerman to stop following the kid.  Anything he did beyond that put him in the wrong.  By definition.  Didn't matter who was White, Hispanic, or Black.  And ALL the actions from that point on, followed from that first wrong act.


And the suspension was not for finding grass, it was for a baggy that had contained grass.  Splitting hairs, but that is what we do in this country to assign relative culpability.





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 09:42:41 pm
Wow!  What a shame...you got SO close with the first part of that sentence, then just after the parenthesis, completely went off the tracks and down the path of the crazy train.  So sad.

Cops have no obligation to 'protect' anyone - that is not the major component of their job.  And like the old saying goes about police 'protection'...only minutes away, when seconds count.



Serve and protect. I guess you don't recall just last week when a cell phone call at 36th and Riverside may have saved a woman. Yes, the police got there in time.

So, you don't believe the NRA has been the force behind SYG?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 09:45:19 pm

And, no not really a mystery at all how Martin wound up face down if, in fact, he was shot while he was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the pavement.


Wonder where all the blood is that would have drenched Zimmerman if Martin was on top of him when shot.  Chest shot makes a gawd-awful mess most of the time - on both sides of the shootee.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 09:47:26 pm

As I said earlier, I think that if you kill someone, you should stand trial.


I would certainly want some type of formal court finding for myself, if for no other reason than to get the 'double jeopardy' situation out of the way. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 09:52:14 pm
I would certainly want some type of formal court finding for myself, if for no other reason than to get the 'double jeopardy' situation out of the way. 

Good point. There is no statute of limitations on murder in at least some states. What would be worse than standing trial for manslaughter or murder after killing your assailant? Standing trial 15 years later when a new prosecuting attorney gets a wild hair.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 10:00:36 pm
Serve and protect. I guess you don't recall just last week when a cell phone call at 36th and Riverside may have saved a woman. Yes, the police got there in time.

So, you don't believe the NRA has been the force behind SYG?

I believe absolutely that the NRA is the single most effective force in the country for the protection of the Second Amendment, and by extension, at least a few of the others.  ACLU does a good job of helping on the others, too - I'm a big fan of them, too.

And yes, they are the leaders of the effort to allow law-abiding citizens to KEEP their inalienable, God-given rights, some of which are defined in the US Constitution - leading to good, solid, common-sense laws that protect those same citizens when they use their right of self-defense.  Laws such as concealed carry, and the stand your ground laws.  These laws have lead to incontrovertible evidence - proof beyond any reasonable doubt - that crime does go down when people have the means to defend themselves.  And the experience of some 'other' countries - specifically, UK, Australia, that crime skyrockets when criminals know beyond a doubt that law abiding citizens will NOT have a firearm to defend themselves with.

And while I don't always agree with all their recommendations regarding the election of politicians - they recommend Jim Inhofe, for example - any REAL, patriotic, American would - Join the NRA!!  Lifetime membership!

But only if you value your freedoms and liberty as an American.  But hey, if you don't care about that, then just continue to coast down that big river of life with no
thought about those who are fundamentally trying to end those same freedoms.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 10:05:06 pm
Good point. There is no statute of limitations on murder in at least some states. What would be worse than standing trial for manslaughter or murder after killing your assailant? Standing trial 15 years later when a new prosecuting attorney gets a wild hair.

Exactly.  That's one reason you always see a cop get a hearing of some sort.  guido may be able to help us with that, but it is my understanding that it can be something similar to a grand jury finding?  I would want a formal "not guilty" ruling.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 27, 2012, 10:10:24 pm
I believe absolutely that the NRA is the single most effective force in the country for the protection of the Second Amendment, and by extension, at least a few of the others.  ACLU does a good job of helping on the others, too - I'm a big fan of them, too.

And yes, they are the leaders of the effort to allow law-abiding citizens to KEEP their inalienable, God-given rights, some of which are defined in the US Constitution - leading to good, solid, common-sense laws that protect those same citizens when they use their right of self-defense.  Laws such as concealed carry, and the stand your ground laws.  These laws have lead to incontrovertible evidence - proof beyond any reasonable doubt - that crime does go down when people have the means to defend themselves.  And the experience of some 'other' countries - specifically, UK, Australia, that crime skyrockets when criminals know beyond a doubt that law abiding citizens will NOT have a firearm to defend themselves with.

And while I don't always agree with all their recommendations regarding the election of politicians - they recommend Jim Inhofe, for example - any REAL, patriotic, American would - Join the NRA!!  Lifetime membership!

But only if you value your freedoms and liberty as an American.  But hey, if you don't care about that, then just continue to coast down that big river of life with no
thought about those who are fundamentally trying to end those same freedoms.



Who are THOSE you so FEAR ending your FREEDOMS? That sh!t is getting old. Guess it depends what priorities are in your list of FREEDOMS...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 27, 2012, 10:33:51 pm
And while I don't always agree with all their recommendations regarding the election of politicians - they recommend Jim Inhofe, for example - any REAL, patriotic, American would - Join the NRA!!  Lifetime membership!

I agree with their mission, but I don't agree with the extremes they go to with it. Nor do I really appreciate their always funding the Republican even when the Democrat is equally against gun control.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 10:39:00 pm
Who are THOSE you so FEAR ending your FREEDOMS? That sh!t is getting old. Guess it depends what priorities are in your list of FREEDOMS...

LWRE and RWRE.  You aren't??  I thought there was more mental horsepower there....


What priorities are on your list of freedoms??  Am I to presume the Constitution and the Bill of Rights aren't that big a deal to you?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 27, 2012, 10:43:22 pm
I agree with their mission, but I don't agree with the extremes they go to with it. Nor do I really appreciate their always funding the Republican even when the Democrat is equally against gun control.

They support Dan Boren.  They recommended Andrew Rice (and Inhofe...go figure - obviously the result of some computer automated scoring/response).

Most Oklahoma Democrats are against gun control, so quite a few of them are on the "good list".  Brad Henry was there.

Harry Reid got an endorsement from them.  He was the prime mover in changing the laws regarding carrying a firearm in the national parks.  Big win!!  Excellent concept.

They are occasionally a little strident.  But then again, in this world, it is the loudest, most obnoxious screamer who gets the points.  i.e. Limbaugh, Hannity, Rove, Coulter, O'Reilly, et al.





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Breadburner on March 28, 2012, 05:56:09 am
Who are THOSE you so FEAR ending your FREEDOMS? That sh!t is getting old. Guess it depends what priorities are in your list of FREEDOMS...

Talk about smile getting old..How bout your drivel....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 28, 2012, 06:21:57 am
LWRE and RWRE.  You aren't??  I thought there was more mental horsepower there....


What priorities are on your list of freedoms??  Am I to presume the Constitution and the Bill of Rights aren't that big a deal to you?


Stick around long enough to see him shortcircuit again and you will figure it out. ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 28, 2012, 08:12:18 am
Stick around long enough to see him shortcircuit again and you will figure it out. ;)

I read his posts.

Some of his writings have nuggets of value - that's why I made the comment about the mental horsepower...

This is one thing that truly puzzles me - how people who nominally support people's rights and the value of the individual, and society of humans, over the artificial construct of a corporation, or any of the other non-human tools we have built to create more efficiency or ease our lives as people, would be anything other than rabid supporters of the gamut of what the founders said were God given, inalienable human rights.  But so many then turn around and issue these 'mouthings' about how a firearm - the single most effective instrument of self defense, and in particular hand guns - are somehow to blame for anything.  It is a schizoid disconnect with reality.  (Ooops, maybe I should use the 'politically correct' term of bipolar disorder?)





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 28, 2012, 08:56:19 am
I read his posts.

Some of his writings have nuggets of value - that's why I made the comment about the mental horsepower...

This is one thing that truly puzzles me - how people who nominally support people's rights and the value of the individual, and society of humans, over the artificial construct of a corporation, or any of the other non-human tools we have built to create more efficiency or ease our lives as people, would be anything other than rabid supporters of the gamut of what the founders said were God given, inalienable human rights.  But so many then turn around and issue these 'mouthings' about how a firearm - the single most effective instrument of self defense, and in particular hand guns - are somehow to blame for anything.  It is a schizoid disconnect with reality.  (Ooops, maybe I should use the 'politically correct' term of bipolar disorder?)


That's easy.  It's physics applied to politics.
A powerful entity can easily overcome a weak entity through force. 
Tea's political philosophy is based on the application of force to promote equality through redistribution. 

When the people are allowed to arm themselves, the playing field becomes more level.  Rights suddenly become defendable and there is little difference between a 200lb man and a 98lb woman. 

Guns and laws that protect their use threaten the ultimate goals of those who's political aims are to take from those who have and give to those who do not.  The application of force is very difficult when applied to an armed populous.

Ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State. – Heinrich Himmler

Armed people are free. No state can control those who have the machinery and the will to resist, no mob can take their liberty and property. And no 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out … People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically "right." Guns ended that, and a social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work. – L. Neil Smith



.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 28, 2012, 10:07:32 am
The law is on your side even without SYG in your second hypothetical. The castle doctrine covers the situation just fine.

As I said earlier, I think that if you kill someone, you should stand trial. I don't think that laws that make it less of a hassle to kill other human beings are really the right way to go. As I said earlier, I'm also strongly in favor of better funding for PDs offices so that it isn't in fact an expensive proposition. Moreover, the hassle factor will hopefully cause some people to choose to retreat instead of killing others. I think that's an unmitigated good thing. Yeah, it sucks, but at least you're alive to tell your tale, no?

Oh, and again, unless the witnesses are lying, Martin was absolutely not on top of Zimmerman at the time he was shot. In fact, the witnesses stated that Zimmerman was on top of (the face down) Martin within a few seconds of the gunshot.

As a pure matter of liberty, one should not have to worry about the time and expense of a trial for defending themselves at any locale.  SYG has not resulted in a huge wave of vigilantism.  The castle doctrine does nothing for you if you get attacked in a parking lot away from your residence.

For someone who thought having to get a prescription for Sudafed was a restriction on liberty, I’m pretty surprised you think having to go to trial for self defense is a great idea.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on March 28, 2012, 10:26:40 am
That's easy.  It's physics applied to politics.
A powerful entity can easily overcome a weak entity through force. 
Tea's political philosophy is based on the application of force to promote equality through redistribution. 

When the people are allowed to arm themselves, the playing field becomes more level.  Rights suddenly become defendable and there is little difference between a 200lb man and a 98lb woman. 

Guns and laws that protect their use threaten the ultimate goals of those who's political aims are to take from those who have and give to those who do not.  The application of force is very difficult when applied to an armed populous.

Ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State. – Heinrich Himmler

Armed people are free. No state can control those who have the machinery and the will to resist, no mob can take their liberty and property. And no 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out … People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically "right." Guns ended that, and a social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work. – L. Neil Smith



.

The people have been outgunned by the state for a couple of generations.  Expecting the citizenry to counterbalance the most advanced military in the history of the world with their handguns and hunting rifles and occasionally jury-rigged full-auto assault rifle is just . . . well, humorous. 



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on March 28, 2012, 10:41:13 am
The people have been outgunned by the state for a couple of generations.  Expecting the citizenry to counterbalance the most advanced military in the history of the world with their handguns and hunting rifles and occasionally jury-rigged full-auto assault rifle is just . . . well, humorous. 



Who do you think is manning the machinery for the government? Robots?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 28, 2012, 10:42:35 am
I have a hand grenade. If that neighbor dog poops one more time in my yard...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on March 28, 2012, 11:41:23 am
The people have been outgunned by the state for a couple of generations.  Expecting the citizenry to counterbalance the most advanced military in the history of the world with their handguns and hunting rifles and occasionally jury-rigged full-auto assault rifle is just . . . well, humorous. 

Kind of like in Iraq and Afghanistan?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 28, 2012, 12:03:40 pm
The people have been outgunned by the state for a couple of generations.  Expecting the citizenry to counterbalance the most advanced military in the history of the world with their handguns and hunting rifles and occasionally jury-rigged full-auto assault rifle is just . . . well, humorous. 

Perhaps.  But the threat of force and it's application are two very different things, and in this country, our military men and women "serve."  They don't view a role in the military as a position of power, or a means of access to a weapon so that they may exert force over those without.

Let me post the entire quote I mentioned above.

Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA – ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State. – Heinrich Himmler



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 28, 2012, 12:16:30 pm
The people have been outgunned by the state for a couple of generations.  Expecting the citizenry to counterbalance the most advanced military in the history of the world with their handguns and hunting rifles and occasionally jury-rigged full-auto assault rifle is just . . . well, humorous.  


First, when people arm themselves to whatever level they see fit, counterbalancing the US military is never the first criteria on the list - at least not with any of the literally thousands of people I have sold guns to in the past, or associated with in hunting, target practice, or any scenario involving firearms over the last 50 years or so of personal experience.  IF it does find its way onto the list, it is ALWAYS somewhere AFTER 1) hunting, 2)self-defense, 3)target practice, or 4)gun collecting.  That puts it somewhere at number 5 or below - most of the time, it never makes the list.  What is TRULY humorous is the idea that anyone would believe that there are 150 million otherwise rational, law-abiding, decent citizen gun owners in this country would are motivated to own guns JUST to go up against the US military.  This is one of the arguments the anti-gun reactionary extremists use to try to justify their thought-lack-of-process, trying to imply that since it is impossible to beat tanks and such, everyone should just turn in their guns and sit down and shut up.

By the way, that is a whole lot like the people who throw up their hands and say since we cannot get 100% supply of electricity needs from solar (or wind, etc), it isn't worth messing with, so we should just build more nukes.  Both approaches are stupid.

As for "assault weapons" - well, concern about the looks of a gun is just an indication of how little real knowledge goes along with all the hysterical extremist propaganda.  In general, any person legally allowed to own a gun will only have a sem-automatic weapon - one trigger pull fires one round.  That new AF2011 may have some issues with current regulations, since two are fired with one trigger pull.  To LEGALLY own a full auto machine gun, certain hoops must be jumped through, including background checks, payment of large fees, and the fact that you must allow the ATF into your home for "inspection" at pretty much whatever time they deem appropriate.  You lose too many of your other Bill of Rights protections to suit me, so that is one of the biggest reasons I don't have or plan to have any.

If you have never fired a full auto, and you get the chance you really owe it to yourself to try it!  It is unbelievably fun!  And even someone like Anthony Bourdain (rabid anti-gunner) gained a new appreciation of the 'fun factor' when he visited Uncle Ted (Nugent) one time.

What we have lost as a piece of "tribal knowledge" and desperately NEED to re-learn is that promoting responsible gun ownership is the single best way to reduce gun misuse!

Not to mention that more and more of our kids grow up without shooting sports, so when they decide to become servants of society through military service, they are at a distinct disadvantage on the target range.  And even more so on the battle field.

 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 28, 2012, 12:18:10 pm
Perhaps.  But the threat of force and it's application are two very different things, and in this country, our military men and women "serve."  They don't view a role in the military as a position of power, or a means of access to a weapon so that they may exert force over those without.


With the exception of the gang-bangers who join with the express purpose of gaining advanced military tactical training for use in the gang when they get back home....

Another reason for a draft!



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 28, 2012, 12:56:47 pm
For someone who thought having to get a prescription for Sudafed was a restriction on liberty, I’m pretty surprised you think having to go to trial for self defense is a great idea.

I think that killing another human being is a big enough deal that I don't really find the argument that the killer might be inconvenienced by a fact finding to be persuasive in the least. Again, I think that the PDs office should be better funded so that people who don't have the money for a good lawyer don't get screwed.

In one instance, I'm buying medicine. In the other, I shot and killed a person. The two are not similar in the least.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 28, 2012, 01:07:58 pm
I think that killing another human being is a big enough deal that I don't really find the argument that the killer might be inconvenienced by a fact finding to be persuasive in the least. Again, I think that the PDs office should be better funded so that people who don't have the money for a good lawyer don't get screwed.

In one instance, I'm buying medicine. In the other, I shot and killed a person. The two are not similar in the least.

Yep, you are correct on your last sentence.

Your right to well-being and to protect yourself is a very essential part of liberty and one of the cornerstones of the Constitution and Bill Of Rights.  Buying Sudafed without a prescription, not so much.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on March 28, 2012, 01:09:02 pm
Serve and protect. I guess you don't recall just last week when a cell phone call at 36th and Riverside may have saved a woman. Yes, the police got there in time.

Does that one count since they later revealed they had been watching the suspect as part of another crime investigation?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 28, 2012, 01:10:56 pm
Your right to well-being and to protect yourself is a very essential part of liberty and one of the cornerstones of the Constitution and Bill Of Rights.  Buying Sudafed without a prescription, not so much.

And your assailant's right to live is also an essential part of liberty. Frankly, it shocks me that you have such a cavalier attitude towards killing that you don't think that people should stand trial when they kill someone. Or that you'd compare it to something as mundane as Sudafed.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 28, 2012, 01:18:18 pm
And your assailant's right to live is also an essential part of liberty. Frankly, it shocks me that you have such a cavalier attitude towards killing that you don't think that people should stand trial when they kill someone. Or that you'd compare it to something as mundane as Sudafed.
(http://gifcrap.com/d/667-1/Jim+Carrey+-+Ride+the+snake.gif)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 28, 2012, 01:24:38 pm
And your assailant's right to live is also an essential part of liberty. Frankly, it shocks me that you have such a cavalier attitude towards killing that you don't think that people should stand trial when they kill someone. Or that you'd compare it to something as mundane as Sudafed.

It’s a matter of liberty and how I think you are totally ignoring one of the most basic tenets of personal liberty as it was laid out by the founding fathers.  I’m simply contrasting it to something as trivial as the meth law that you were so vehemently opposed to as if that were some sort of violation of personal liberty.  Ask an innocent bystander burned by a lab fire if the PE issue is really that mundane.

According to the law, I have a specific right to terminate the life of my assailant if I have reasonable cause to believe my life is about to be terminated or I face great bodily harm.  I have a legal right to open fire on someone breaking into my house.  Based on those laws, the assailant waived assumed the risk of dying and even possibly his/her right to live when he either aimed a weapon at me or kicked in my front door.

I simply don’t think people should stand trial when they have protected themselves according to the law.  It’s not as if those shootings do not undergo a legal review after they happen.

You can be certain the local 5-0 and the DA are going to conduct a thorough investigation to make sure I acted within the law before deciding whether or not to bring charges.  There are two notable cases in recent history- the Jerome Ersland case in OKC and the Kenneth Gumm case in Tulsa where upon further review, the DA believed the shooter did not act legally.  Ersland was convicted of murder, Gumm pled to manslaughter.

Certainly you don’t think that the whole trial process would be a few day or couple of week’s inconvenience, do you?  You don’t seem to grasp what sort of disruption that is to someone’s life- especially someone who acted perfectly legal in protecting themselves.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 28, 2012, 01:51:24 pm
Pick a label, CT...Zimmerman still shot an unarmed human being after seeking out and creating a confrontation with him.

In other developments today:The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.

Police brought Zimmerman into the station for questioning for a few hours on the night of the shooting, said Zimmerman's attorney, despite his request for medical attention first. Ultimately they had to accept Zimmerman's claim of self defense. He was never charged with a crime.

Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.

Zimmerman, 28, claimed he shot Martin, 17, in self defense.

One complicating factor in the investigation was that the first detective to interview Zimmerman about the shooting was a narcotics officer rather than a homicide detective.

The State Attorney's office said only "no comment" when asked about the affidavit today.

The revelation is the latest salvo in a war of leaks meant to bolster each side amid rising tension over the shooting.

I can't wait until our state attorney general starts to micro manage over law enforcement officers. Florida and Oklahoma are twins.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 28, 2012, 02:18:31 pm
Pick a label, CT...Zimmerman still shot an unarmed human being after seeking out and creating a confrontation with him.

In other developments today:The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.

Police brought Zimmerman into the station for questioning for a few hours on the night of the shooting, said Zimmerman's attorney, despite his request for medical attention first. Ultimately they had to accept Zimmerman's claim of self defense. He was never charged with a crime.

Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.

Zimmerman, 28, claimed he shot Martin, 17, in self defense.

One complicating factor in the investigation was that the first detective to interview Zimmerman about the shooting was a narcotics officer rather than a homicide detective.

The State Attorney's office said only "no comment" when asked about the affidavit today.

The revelation is the latest salvo in a war of leaks meant to bolster each side amid rising tension over the shooting.

I can't wait until our state attorney general starts to micro manage over law enforcement officers. Florida and Oklahoma are twins.

I read the same story.  There is one more manner of oversight over the cops, DA, and AG in this case: the grand jury.  If the grand jury decides there’s enough evidence, Zimmerman will have his day in court.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 28, 2012, 02:20:06 pm
I read the same story.  There is one more manner of oversight over the cops, DA, and AG in this case: the grand jury.  If the grand jury decides there’s enough evidence, Zimmerman will have his day in court.

You know that's not good enough, right?



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 28, 2012, 02:24:33 pm
You know that's not good enough, right?



Of course not.  The grand will be jury-rigged with a bunch of racist tea baggers.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 28, 2012, 02:29:45 pm
I'm all for a Grand Jury. It has the flexibility to go beyond just the murder. Political and police undue influence?
Just read where Zimmerman is the son of a retired Virginia Supreme Court magistrate judge and a mother who was a courthouse interpreter. I just wonder if he has not been arrested or charged because of influential favoritism.

More evidence is surfacing. Looks like there were witnesses who can draw a picture of bullying and brutality by George.

I recommend you boys stop giving Zoonyman the benefit of the doubt unless you're rooting for him. Leave doubt to the jury.

btw, careful, your racial bias' are showing....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 28, 2012, 02:48:59 pm
You can be certain the local 5-0 and the DA are going to conduct a thorough investigation to make sure I acted within the law before deciding whether or not to bring charges.  There are two notable cases in recent history- the Jerome Ersland case in OKC and the Kenneth Gumm case in Tulsa where upon further review, the DA believed the shooter did not act legally.  Ersland was convicted of murder, Gumm pled to manslaughter.

Certainly you don’t think that the whole trial process would be a few day or couple of week’s inconvenience, do you?  You don’t seem to grasp what sort of disruption that is to someone’s life- especially someone who acted perfectly legal in protecting themselves.

It should be a significant disruption to your life if you shoot and kill a person. This is not a trivial thing we're talking about here. In very clear cut cases where the castle doctrine applies, it's not as important, but it should be very clear that if you can reasonably retreat you should, even if you do have the right to defend yourself with deadly force if you are under threat of deadly force or great bodily harm.

Nobody is saying they should all be circus trials that take months, for crying out loud. If the case is clear cut, it can be disposed of quickly, even with a trial. If it's not, that's precisely when these things need to go to trial. If you don't trust juries to do the right thing, that's another problem entirely.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on March 28, 2012, 03:05:47 pm
but it should be very clear that if you can reasonably retreat you should

No.   The law in Oklahoma states very clearly that I do not have any duty or obligation to retreat.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 28, 2012, 03:23:07 pm
It should be a significant disruption to your life if you shoot and kill a person. This is not a trivial thing we're talking about here. In very clear cut cases where the castle doctrine applies, it's not as important, but it should be very clear that if you can reasonably retreat you should, even if you do have the right to defend yourself with deadly force if you are under threat of deadly force or great bodily harm.

Nobody is saying they should all be circus trials that take months, for crying out loud. If the case is clear cut, it can be disposed of quickly, even with a trial. If it's not, that's precisely when these things need to go to trial. If you don't trust juries to do the right thing, that's another problem entirely.

Who decides it’s "clear cut"?
 
The court system simply does not move that fast and cannot be compelled to for murder or manslaughter.  Take a look how long Kenneth Gumm’s case dragged out: nearly a year.  Had he not pled, it likely could have been a two year ordeal.  Homicide trials frequently take less than a week.  It’s all the pre-trial hearings and motions which eat up time and add to the stress of the defendant.

By all accounts, in the Gumm case, he tried to retreat while holding his weapon and the guy he killed kept on coming at him saying he was “going to end him".

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2030913&db=Tulsa

If you don’t remember the details, Gumm was in his late ’60’s at the time. Turnidge (I think that was the tweaker’s name) was in his 40’s and apparently under the influence of alcohol and meth.  It was a road rage incident where supposedly Gumm cut off whomever was driving the car Turnidge was in.

Gumm never served a day in prison, but he’s now a convicted felon.  This should have fallen under the stand your ground law, but our DA doesn’t seem to understand the concept of self defense.  I’ve also been told that Gumm refused to heed the advice of an attorney the NRA provided for him, so he bears some of the blame.

You and I are simply going to disagree on this one.  I hardly view taking another’s life lightly.  However, I don’t see any reason to punish someone for using deadly force when it’s warranted.  There is always a review process after something like this.  Sometimes it results in charges, often times it does not. That’s the way it should stay.

Your idea tramples all over the basic Constitutional concept of liberty.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 28, 2012, 03:38:05 pm
Who decides it’s "clear cut"?
 
The court system simply does not move that fast and cannot be compelled to for murder or manslaughter.  Take a look how long Kenneth Gumm’s case dragged out: nearly a year.  Had he not pled, it likely could have been a two year ordeal.  Homicide trials frequently take less than a week.  It’s all the pre-trial hearings and motions which eat up time and add to the stress of the defendant.

By all accounts, in the Gumm case, he tried to retreat while holding his weapon and the guy he killed kept on coming at him saying he was “going to end him".

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2030913&db=Tulsa

If you don’t remember the details, Gumm was in his late ’60’s at the time. Turnidge (I think that was the tweaker’s name) was in his 40’s and apparently under the influence of alcohol and meth.  It was a road rage incident where supposedly Gumm cut off whomever was driving the car Turnidge was in.

Gumm never served a day in prison, but he’s now a convicted felon.  This should have fallen under the stand your ground law, but our DA doesn’t seem to understand the concept of self defense.  I’ve also been told that Gumm refused to heed the advice of an attorney the NRA provided for him, so he bears some of the blame.

You and I are simply going to disagree on this one.  I hardly view taking another’s life lightly.  However, I don’t see any reason to punish someone for using deadly force when it’s warranted.  There is always a review process after something like this.  Sometimes it results in charges, often times it does not. That’s the way it should stay.

Your idea tramples all over the basic Constitutional concept of liberty.

(http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/439459/753894.gif)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 28, 2012, 07:26:17 pm
No.   The law in Oklahoma states very clearly that I do not have any duty or obligation to retreat.

Yes, that is what the law presently says. I think that should not be the case. It's absolutely freakin' ridiculous that a person who has the option of safely retreating is not required to do so. We aren't in the effing wild west.

And your example is precisely why all such cases should go to trial. If the situation was as you say it was, it is a travesty of justice that Gumm is now a convicted felon. If Gumm was retreating and his assailant was following, that should, under any reasonable construction of a duty to retreat, fulfill the requirements.

Again, I'm completely for strong construction of the right to self defense. However, I am also against self help in the form of killing other human beings when it is not strictly necessary.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 28, 2012, 10:07:51 pm
Yes, that is what the law presently says. I think that should not be the case. It's absolutely freakin' ridiculous that a person who has the option of safely retreating is not required to do so. We aren't in the effing wild west.

And your example is precisely why all such cases should go to trial. If the situation was as you say it was, it is a travesty of justice that Gumm is now a convicted felon. If Gumm was retreating and his assailant was following, that should, under any reasonable construction of a duty to retreat, fulfill the requirements.

Again, I'm completely for strong construction of the right to self defense. However, I am also against self help in the form of killing other human beings when it is not strictly necessary.

Whether you care to acknowledge it or not, your concept that everyone who kills someone else should stand trial serves to criminalize self-defense.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: BKDotCom on March 29, 2012, 06:26:11 am
Whether you care to acknowledge it or not, your concept that everyone who kills someone else should stand trial serves to criminalize self-defense.
Wouldn't they self-defender only be a criminal if found guilty?   If it was self defense they've got nuttin to worry about.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 06:47:15 am
Wouldn't they self-defender only be a criminal if found guilty?   If it was self defense they've got nuttin to worry about.

Except perhaps jail and legal expenses while they wait for trial.  Nothin much.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on March 29, 2012, 06:49:21 am
Except perhaps jail and legal expenses while they wait for trial.  Nothin much.

So, are you inferring that everyone who makes the claim 'self-defense' gets a free pass and shouldn't have to face the process?  I'm sure that's not the case, but some of the statements I see on here from people make that inference.  That's the point I'm making.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2012, 06:59:48 am
Wouldn't they self-defender only be a criminal if found guilty?   If it was self defense they've got nuttin to worry about.

Now THAT is probably the most naive comment I have ever read on this board....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2012, 07:11:23 am
Yes, that is what the law presently says. I think that should not be the case. It's absolutely freakin' ridiculous that a person who has the option of safely retreating is not required to do so. We aren't in the effing wild west.


I have stated before that I will always run from a fight, if given the chance.

But...

It's absolutely freakin' ridiculous that a person who has intruded into my close personal space and attempted to do, or has done, me serious bodily harm or death should not just be eliminated at that exact time and place, if at all possible.

The vast majority of self-defense cases are instances where running away is not an option.  In one's home.  Standing at a gas pump sandwiched between two thugs on each end of vehicle threatening - example from family files.  Man and wife/girlfriend walking down the street, approached by a couple of criminals with knives - classic TV cop show scenario.  Or the ones we see on TV all the time where some clown or two or three comes in the door of a convenience store and robs the place - usually standing near the front door to "screen" who goes in or out - I guess I could just try to sneak out behind him while his attention is diverted.  Pick the scenario of choice and think about how to handle it.  Most will not involve successful running away.  You gonna stand there thinking about escape plans - where you might go - when someone pulls out a knife?

I can just see me trying to waddle down the street to get away from some thug trying to mug me at knife/gun point.  I could get a step or two space between us, maybe, but then I must be ready to defend or it's all over.

What this law does is gives people immunity from unjust prosecution when they react to defend themselves in these deadly situations.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on March 29, 2012, 07:14:43 am
Since we are on the self defense talk. A few years ago wasn't there a man who was arrested when he shot a man climbing through his window and the man staggered out to the driveway and died ? Because he shot the man before he fully entered the home, he was arrested. Not sure if he was charged.

And also the young Mother who was on the phone with 911 giving full account to them while the intruder was busting in her front door. And I can't remember if she shot him through the door or had to wait for him to enter. She was not arrested or charged and became somewhat a National hero for the make my day law.

Let me touch on one other thing. The two ORU students a white female and male jogging, that was killed by two black men by being shot from behind(Cowards) To qualify that as a racist killing. What is the criteria ? Talk amongst yourselves.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 07:37:38 am
So, are you inferring that everyone who makes the claim 'self-defense' gets a free pass and shouldn't have to face the process?  I'm sure that's not the case, but some of the statements I see on here from people make that inference.  That's the point I'm making.

As with any incident, law enforcement must make a determination of whether or not a crime was committed.  If there is no clear evidence of assault, and the officer or prosecutor can not establish that you or those you were protecting faced any danger, than it is their duty to detain you pending an investigation.

In most cases of self defense the circumstances are very clear.  In a small percentage, a more in-depth investigation will be necessary.  It is unfair to simply detain and prosecute everyone.  To do so would criminalize self-defense and make people reluctant to use deadly force when necessary.  It would also create an atmosphere where criminals would face far less resistance, and therefore embolden them to be less fearful of retaliation.

As we see in some communities with strict gun laws, the criminals have grown very skilled at profiling their victims.  A woman approaching her apartment late at night represents an easy target for a criminal, because he knows that she is unarmed.  That same women in Oklahoma is less likely to face a criminal looking for an easy target.  She represents as much of a threat to the criminal as anyone else licensed to carry a firearm.  She is also willing to protect herself because she understands that she has the right to without fear of imprisonment.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2012, 07:40:41 am


To do so would criminalize self-defense and make people reluctant to use deadly force when necessary.  It would also create an atmosphere where criminals would face far less resistance, and therefore embolden them to be less fearful of retaliation.

As we see in some communities with strict gun laws, the criminals have grown very skilled at profiling their victims.  A woman approaching her apartment late at night represents an easy target for a criminal, because he knows that she is unarmed.  That same women in Oklahoma is less likely to face a criminal looking for an easy target.  She represents as much of a threat to the criminal as anyone else licensed to carry a firearm.  She is also willing to protect herself because she understands that she has the right to without fear of imprisonment.



You have just defined the UK and Australia due to events in recent years.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on March 29, 2012, 07:46:32 am
As with any incident, law enforcement must make a determination of whether or not a crime was committed.  If there is no clear evidence of assault, and the officer or prosecutor can not establish that you or those you were protecting faced any danger, than it is their duty to detain you pending an investigation.

In most cases of self defense the circumstances are very clear.  In a small percentage, a more in-depth investigation will be necessary.  It is unfair to simply detain and prosecute everyone.  To do so would criminalize self-defense and make people reluctant to use deadly force when necessary.  It would also create an atmosphere where criminals would face far less resistance, and therefore embolden them to be less fearful of retaliation.

As we see in some communities with strict gun laws, the criminals have grown very skilled at profiling their victims.  A woman approaching her apartment late at night represents an easy target for a criminal, because he knows that she is unarmed.  That same women in Oklahoma is less likely to face a criminal looking for an easy target.  She represents as much of a threat to the criminal as anyone else licensed to carry a firearm.  She is also willing to protect herself because she understands that she has the right to without fear of imprisonment.



But shouldn't the consequence of having liberal firearms laws be the notion that you will be investigated and possibly charged if you engage in such action?  Self-defense is absolutely a person's right, but having the right to self-defend yourself to the fullest extent, especially when in conjunction with a firearm shouldn't be something taken lightly.  I think just glazing over it and inferring that it's an inconvenience to have to incur legal fees if you take someone's life as part of self-defense marginalizes the system.  Shouldn't there be some responsibility to being a gun owner?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 07:50:17 am
Wouldn't they self-defender only be a criminal if found guilty?   If it was self defense they've got nuttin to worry about.

You completely missed my point.  I’m not talking about whether or not the self-defender becomes a criminal.

By having to face trial every time someone exercises self-defense, the prosecutor must bring criminal charges.  Ergo, that is criminalizing self-defense if everyone who has been in that situation must stand trial for homicide.  Any time someone is killed there is ALWAYS an investigation of the death.  If that investigation clearly shows the shooter was acting within the law, no charges are brought and there is no need for a trial.  Same as any other investigative process of any other crime or potential crime.  

I agree with Gaspar’s point- there’s supposed to be a deterrent factor in any of these laws which preserve the right to and clearly defines self-defense.  The police cannot be everywhere at once.

An automatic penalty for defending one’s self simply sends the wrong message as to who really has the rights.

But shouldn't the consequence of having liberal firearms laws be the notion that you will be investigated and possibly charged if you engage in such action?  Self-defense is absolutely a person's right, but having the right to self-defend yourself to the fullest extent, especially when in conjunction with a firearm shouldn't be something taken lightly.  I think just glazing over it and inferring that it's an inconvenience to have to incur legal fees if you take someone's life as part of self-defense marginalizes the system.  Shouldn't there be some responsibility to being a gun owner?

Hoss, that mechanism is already in place for review and possible criminal charges to be brought if you defend yourself.  It WILL be investigated.  Anyone who has a CCL is well aware there’s the possibility you could end up with manslaughter or murder charges if you act inappropriately.  I personally don’t know anyone who carries who does not take that responsibility seriously.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 07:51:23 am
You are climbing the wrong thread. This one is about a white murderer on the loose due to bigotry. It's not about self defense or badlaw writing.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 07:58:19 am
Zimmerman has problems with his story.  Now a video has surfaced of him getting out of the police car in which there’s no visible evidence that he was even remotely injured.  Granted, it’s hard to tell from surveillance video, but with the “severity” of injuries claimed (broken nose, scrapes and blood on the back of the head) it’s not readily apparent.  Should we assume they lost the evidentiary photos most PD’s would have shot?

Zimmerman’s side of the story looks less credible at this point.  Due to the grainy nature of the video I’d still reserve complete damnation for Zimmerman without seeing clear photos of his alleged injuries or wounds.

Quote
(CBS/AP) SANFORD, Fla. - A security video that shows neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman being led in handcuffs from a police car after he fatally shot Trayvon Martin is adding to the debate over whether the shooting was a case of self-defense.

An attorney for the teen's family said it looks to him that Zimmerman doesn't have injuries to his face and head in the video as Zimmerman's supporters have said.

Zimmerman told police he fired in self-defense and he was not arrested, touching off widespread public outrage and protests across the country. Zimmerman's attorney, Craig Sonner, has said in more than one interview that his client's nose was broken during the fight with Martin.

What happened right after Trayvon Martin's shooting?
New details deepen Trayvon Martin controversy
Supporters of Martin shooter fear public backlash

Sanford police Sgt. David Morgenstern on Wednesday confirmed that the video being shown by ABC News is of Zimmerman. The 28-year-old's head and face are visible throughout and he is dressed in a red and black fleece jacket. Police are shown frisking Zimmerman whose hands were handcuffed behind his back. They then lead him into a police station.

"This certainly doesn't look like a man who police said had his nose broken and his head repeatedly smashed into the sidewalk," Ben Crump, an attorney for Martin's family, said in a statement. "George Zimmerman has no apparent injuries in this video, which dramatically contradicts his version of the events of February 26."

Zimmerman said that on Feb. 26, he was pursuing the 17-year-old Martin, who was not armed, because the teen was acting suspiciously. He said he lost sight of the black teenager and Martin attacked him as he headed back to his sport utility vehicle. Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is Hispanic.

Police did not administer a drug and alcohol test or an immediate background check on Zimmerman, although they did both on Martin.

The next day, detectives re-enacted the shooting with Zimmerman at the scene. They also discovered Zimmerman had two prior arrests: one for assaulting a cop, the other for domestic abuse.

For the next two weeks, lead investigator Chris Serino pursued a manslaughter charge against Zimmerman.

Police interviewed at least six witnesses. But none of them saw how the confrontation began or the shooting that ended it. On March 12, police gave the case to State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. He told them they needed more evidence to arrest Zimmerman.

The case now rests with special prosecutor Angela Corey, who with investigators has been quietly re-interviewing witnesses and examining evidence.

In an interview with Orlando station WOFL FOX 35 that aired Wednesday night, Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman, said that despite dispatchers telling his son to stop following Martin, he kept going so he could get an address for police to check. He said his son was suspicious because of several break-ins and thought it was strange for someone to be walking between the town homes on a rainy night.

The Orlando Sentinel, citing anonymous sources, has reported that Zimmerman told police that Martin grabbed his head and banged it several times against the sidewalk. A statement from Sanford police said the newspaper's story was "consistent" with evidence turned over to prosecutors.

Sonner said the gash on the back of Zimmerman's head probably was serious enough for stitches, but he waited too long for treatment so the wound was already healing. Miguel Meza, who identified himself as Zimmerman's cousin, said Zimmerman was in "the fight of his life."

Sonner did not immediately return an after-hours call to his office Wednesday.

Crump called the video "riveting" and "icing on the cake" that Zimmerman should be held accountable for what happened.

Since the shooting, Zimmerman's supporters say he's gone into hiding and that he and his family have gotten death threats.

Martin's supporters, including a host of outspoken celebrities and civil rights leaders who have appeared on television for the past two weeks, don't believe Zimmerman's story. They want him arrested and prosecuted.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57406183/video-shows-zimmerman-without-blood-bruises/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on March 29, 2012, 08:00:02 am
You completely missed my point.  I’m not talking about whether or not the self-defender becomes a criminal.

By having to face trial every time someone exercises self-defense, the prosecutor must bring criminal charges.  Ergo, that is criminalizing self-defense if everyone who has been in that situation must stand trial for homicide.  Any time someone is killed there is ALWAYS an investigation of the death.  If that investigation clearly shows the shooter was acting within the law, no charges are brought and there is no need for a trial.  Same as any other investigative process of any other crime or potential crime.  

I agree with Gaspar’s point- there’s supposed to be a deterrent factor in any of these laws which preserve the right to and clearly defines self-defense.  The police cannot be everywhere at once.

An automatic penalty for defending one’s self simply sends the wrong message as to who really has the rights.

Hoss, that mechanism is already in place for review and possible criminal charges to be brought if you defend yourself.  It WILL be investigated.  Anyone who has a CCL is well aware there’s the possibility you could end up with manslaughter or murder charges if you act inappropriately.  I personally don’t know anyone who carries who does not take that responsibility seriously.

I understand all of that C, but it's response like this:

Quote
Except perhaps jail and legal expenses while they wait for trial.  Nothin much.
...

...that make it sound like the process is being marginalized.  I know that even as someone who is still waiting to take his CC class, I take the responsibility of owning a firearm very seriously.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: CharlieSheen on March 29, 2012, 08:01:09 am
Yeah, somebody doesn't get their nose broken, thrown to the ground, gotten back up without getting blood all over their shirt.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 08:05:29 am
You are climbing the wrong thread. This one is about a white murderer on the loose due to bigotry. It's not about self defense or badlaw writing.

I’m sorry what makes Zimmerman white and not Hispanic other than sensationalizing the story to keep racial tensions high?  He’s actually Jewish/Hispanic.

Why is Zimmerman more white than say, President Obama?  Why doesn’t anyone say Obama doesn’t care about the plight of black people in America and call him a racist when the statistics are very clear that blacks are suffering the worst in this job climate?

There’s stories floating in the press and blogosphere that Zimmerman tutored black kids.  Now this is the reach-around logic people use who are so bent on racial motivation to claim he was a racist bastard:

Quote
Some of yall heard, or are going to be hearing about how George Zimmerman used to tutor young black kids...

so the people that are defending george zimmerman are going to be using that as supposed evidence that he's not a racist...

in reality, that actually can show you that he's a racist...

many white racists actually like to help out the "unfortunate black person" as a way to not feel racist...as a way to feel liberal....

many white racists will only deal with black folks if that black individual is in a inferior position...

they wouldn't mind "reaching down" and helping a black person but they would mind when a black person moves in next door to them...

they only deal with black folks on their terms....only when that black person is a inferior position to them...

so this way the white racist will still get to maintain his white privilege and their superiority...

a perfect example of that would be the racist cop from the O.J Trial...Mark Fuhrman....

here goes some of the sh*t he said about black people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuhrman_tapes

during the trial, when they had him on the stand he used to talk about how he wasn't a racist because he said he used to help out inner city black kids, he would play basketball with them and what not

now why would a racist white guy help out unfortunate black kids?

it's because of the dynamic I said above....
http://forums.projectcovo.com/showthread.php?t=4063031

What a complete load of sick bullshit.  THAT is a case of constructed superiority on the part of the writer. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 08:08:44 am
I understand all of that C, but it's response like this:
...

...that make it sound like the process is being marginalized.  I know that even as someone who is still waiting to take his CC class, I take the responsibility of owning a firearm very seriously.

I didn’t see it as marginalizing it at all.  BK’s comment was pretty left field, you must admit.  That’s what Gas was responding to in a semi-sarcastic manner.  Then again you and I DO read Gaspar with different filters. ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on March 29, 2012, 08:30:08 am


An automatic penalty for defending one’s self simply sends the wrong message as to who really has the rights.



A trial for murder or manslaughter or assault or whatever isn't a penalty.  It's the mechanism whereby the justice system concludes whether or not the deed was self-defense or not.  





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: CharlieSheen on March 29, 2012, 08:30:43 am
I’m sorry what makes Zimmerman white and not Hispanic other than sensationalizing the story to keep racial tensions high?  He’s actually Jewish/Hispanic.

Why is Zimmerman more white than say, President Obama?  Why doesn’t anyone say Obama doesn’t care about the plight of black people in America and call him a racist when the statistics are very clear that blacks are suffering the worst in this job climate?

There’s stories floating in the press and blogosphere that Zimmerman tutored black kids.  Now this is the reach-around logic people use who are so bent on racial motivation to claim he was a racist bastard:

What a complete load of sick bullshit.  THAT is a case of constructed superiority on the part of the writer. 

Good points


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaMoon on March 29, 2012, 08:42:09 am
So where in these forums is the outcry for the beating and murder of Bob and Nancy Strait that happened right here in Tulsa?

Has anyone heard of this story as well? http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/newsom.asp

Should it matter if the victim is black or white to get media attention? NO, it should not. Murder is murder no matter if your purple or green, black or white. I see only a mass media coverage and convergence of the all mighty loud mouth Reverends when it benefits them ( the Reverends ). Its about time to realize your color only benefits those that take advantage of color.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 09:04:34 am
So where in these forums is the outcry for the beating and murder of Bob and Nancy Strait that happened right here in Tulsa?

Has anyone heard of this story as well? http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/newsom.asp

Should it matter if the victim is black or white to get media attention? NO, it should not. Murder is murder no matter if your purple or green, black or white. I see only a mass media coverage and convergence of the all mighty loud mouth Reverends when it benefits them ( the Reverends ). Its about time to realize your color only benefits those that take advantage of color.

WRONG THREAD!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUVcULOQPqc&feature=related[/youtube]

EVERYONE! PLEASE STOP WITH THESE FALSE EQUIVALENCIES!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/inde
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 09:12:16 am
A trial for murder or manslaughter or assault or whatever isn't a penalty.  It's the mechanism whereby the justice system concludes whether or not the deed was self-defense or not.  


Really?  You wouldn’t consider thousands of dollars in legal fees, missed time from work if you could even still keep your job due to the demands of meeting with attorneys, showing up for court appearances for over a year or two, etc. a penalty?  Can you honestly say if you went through that you hadn’t been penalized?  Why should I be subjected to thousands in legal fees and why should my employer have to miss my services, and my family be dragged through that stress because I legally defended myself?

You and a couple others seem to keep missing the point that the police and prosecutor review every single homicide case- there is an established process.  Those which are determined justifiable do not go to trial as they should not.  Certainly, if I acted in a grey area or there was no clear threat, I would expect to be put on trial. 

Being concerned about whether or not I’m about to A) Be arrested and jailed B) Face thousands in legal bills and wasted time and C) Face possible imprisonment should be the last thing on my mind when I’m protecting myself or others either on my property or I’m faced with someone who is armed and has clear intention to harm myself or those with me.

If your concern is to create a deterrent to vigilantism, you need to realize that most everyone who carries or keeps a weapon handy in their house takes that responsibility very seriously.  In fact, they seem to be far more aware of potential consequences than someone acting criminally does.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/inde
Post by: we vs us on March 29, 2012, 09:50:16 am
Really?  You wouldn’t consider thousands of dollars in legal fees, missed time from work if you could even still keep your job due to the demands of meeting with attorneys, showing up for court appearances for over a year or two, etc. a penalty?  Can you honestly say if you went through that you hadn’t been penalized?  Why should I be subjected to thousands in legal fees and why should my employer have to miss my services, and my family be dragged through that stress because I legally defended myself?

You and a couple others seem to keep missing the point that the police and prosecutor review every single homicide case- there is an established process.  Those which are determined justifiable do not go to trial as they should not.  Certainly, if I acted in a grey area or there was no clear threat, I would expect to be put on trial. 

Being concerned about whether or not I’m about to A) Be arrested and jailed B) Face thousands in legal bills and wasted time and C) Face possible imprisonment should be the last thing on my mind when I’m protecting myself or others either on my property or I’m faced with someone who is armed and has clear intention to harm myself or those with me.

If your concern is to create a deterrent to vigilantism, you need to realize that most everyone who carries or keeps a weapon handy in their house takes that responsibility very seriously.  In fact, they seem to be far more aware of potential consequences than someone acting criminally does.


Time/money spent on attorneys, court appearances, etc aren't a penalty.  They may be costs but they aren't levied as specific punishments for a crime committed.  You're muddying what a trial is for: which is to determine guilt or innocence in the eyes of the law.  Killing someone -- whether in self defense or not -- is one of the most serious crimes in our civil and criminal codes.  It's so serious that in other contexts and situations we see fit to execute killers.  It's crucial for the state, therefore, to determine to the best of its ability whether or not the killing in question deserves punishment or not.   

Why should I believe you when you say it was self-defense?  I'm sorry but I don't care how serious you take your conceal/carry responsibilities.  I want to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, whether you hunted the kid down or if you were in fact attacked and were defending yourself.  Justice demands it, because the person who might be there to defend themselves in court is dead.

And re: police review . . . especially in the Zimmerman/Martin case, it's looking like the police themselves were actually going to press charges against Zimmerman (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/29/report-police-initially-wanted-to-make-arrest-in-trayvon-martin-case/), but the prosecutors slow-played the investigation, at least in part because of concerns about legal hurdles surrounding the stand your ground law.  In this case especially, the national protests served to move the case past institutional disagreements and/or hesitation and get it into court where Zimmerman's story (such as it is) can be examined.  Protests like these aren't always a good strategy and they don't always end up with a positive outcome -- I'm not a kneejerk fan of marching in the streets for any slight.  But up to this point, in this particular case, it's done a lot of things the authorities in FLA couldn't/wouldn't do themselves.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 09:53:18 am
I’m sorry what makes Zimmerman white and not Hispanic other than sensationalizing the story to keep racial tensions high?  He’s actually Jewish/Hispanic.

Why is Zimmerman more white than say, President Obama?  Why doesn’t anyone say Obama doesn’t care about the plight of black people in America and call him a racist when the statistics are very clear that blacks are suffering the worst in this job climate?

There’s stories floating in the press and blogosphere that Zimmerman tutored black kids.  Now this is the reach-around logic people use who are so bent on racial motivation to claim he was a racist bastard:

What a complete load of sick bullshit.  THAT is a case of constructed superiority on the part of the writer. 

The New York Times has addressed this.  They are now referring to him as "WHITE Hispanic."

I suppose they will be referring to President Obama now as WHITE African American.  I'm anxious to see how that plays out.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on March 29, 2012, 09:57:01 am
And re: Zimmerman and race . . . Zimmerman's race doesn't matter (except to TTC).  What matters is that he chose to pursue Martin specifically because he was black.    


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/inde
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 10:07:37 am
Time/money spent on attorneys, court appearances, etc aren't a penalty. 

Just...wow!

When it’s a disruption of your normal life and you have to cash in your child’s college fund to defend yourself that’s a penalty.  To claim otherwise is nothing but parsing.

As far as the rest of your argument, if the PD and DA are irresponsible or there are suspected irregularities, that’s what a grand jury is for.  Again, you and a few others apparently do not appreciate there is already a very good process in place specifically for these situations.

Your argument borders on infringement of 2nd and 5th amendment as well as basic Constitutional rights.

Should every single person accused of a crime stand trial?  That’s why DA offices review every single case prior to making a determination of whether or not there is enough merit to prosecute.  A) it prevents the court system from being clogged B) it serves as a check and balance system to make sure wrongly-arrested people are not forced to go through the expense and time of criminal prosecution.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/inde
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2012, 10:25:34 am
I want to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt,

I believe reasonable doubt is the actual dividing line.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaMoon on March 29, 2012, 10:29:02 am
WRONG THREAD!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUVcULOQPqc&feature=related[/youtube]

EVERYONE! PLEASE STOP WITH THESE FALSE EQUIVALENCIES!

Once again the reason I don't come to these forums that often is this dude.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on March 29, 2012, 10:34:14 am
That's odd. I am spending more time away from this forum because of the domination of responses by those critical of him. His style is necessary to shock some of you out of your complacent, Okie thinking that has led the state down the path of Fallin and the state legislature. The stultifying effect of that mindset just doesn't appeal to me.

And somehow, this forum, and the world keep on keepin' on. ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 11:09:58 am
I’ve actually come to appreciate TTC’s contrarian views.  It keeps things stirred up.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on March 29, 2012, 11:12:18 am
I’ve actually come to appreciate TTC’s contrarian views.  It keeps things stirred up.

No doubt. You have to always have a Devils advocate.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/inde
Post by: we vs us on March 29, 2012, 11:12:49 am
Just...wow!

When it’s a disruption of your normal life and you have to cash in your child’s college fund to defend yourself that’s a penalty.  To claim otherwise is nothing but parsing.

As far as the rest of your argument, if the PD and DA are irresponsible or there are suspected irregularities, that’s what a grand jury is for.  Again, you and a few others apparently do not appreciate there is already a very good process in place specifically for these situations.

Your argument borders on infringement of 2nd and 5th amendment as well as basic Constitutional rights.

Should every single person accused of a crime stand trial?  That’s why DA offices review every single case prior to making a determination of whether or not there is enough merit to prosecute.  A) it prevents the court system from being clogged B) it serves as a check and balance system to make sure wrongly-arrested people are not forced to go through the expense and time of criminal prosecution.



You're misunderstanding.  I'm not saying that defending yourself in this situation is without cost or inconvenience.  I'm saying that the cost hasn't been applied specifically to punish you for your deeds, which is what you're implying.  The court will appoint you an attorney, so there's always the option of not paying out-of-pocket; obviously, quality is an issue but it's up to you how much you want to pay.  Time, unfortunately, is what everyone will spend -- including the friends and family of the deceased (who won't get compensated for their time) and the witnesses (who won't get compensated for their time).  

But look. You don't get to kill someone, claim self defense, and then walk out into the sunshine never to think about what happened again.  As easy as you want to make it, it's in everybody's interest to make sure that that's in fact what you did.  Not everyone is as responsible or ethical or honest as you are.  And if I didn't know you, I'd damn sure insist on finding out (via a trial) that you were.  Because if you weren't, what happened probably wasn't self defense.  It was probably plain old murder, and if it was, you should pay for that.  There should be a high bar because it is easy to abuse.

In this case especially, the system seemed to be resisting moving forward with that process.  Systems will do that occasionally, because systems are made up of individuals who are susceptible to inertia and capture by powerful interests and good old fashioned fear.  

(and when I say "move the system forward," I don't mean "to a guilty verdict." I mean "to an attempt at resolution.")


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 11:26:29 am
Without TTC we would rarely see a glimpse of the Left's true colors.

He says exactly what many are thinking but have the power to edit from their dialogue.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/inde
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 11:30:29 am
You're misunderstanding.  I'm not saying that defending yourself in this situation is without cost or inconvenience.  I'm saying that the cost hasn't been applied specifically to punish you for your deeds, which is what you're implying.  The court will appoint you an attorney, so there's always the option of not paying out-of-pocket; obviously, quality is an issue but it's up to you how much you want to pay.  Time, unfortunately, is what everyone will spend -- including the friends and family of the deceased (who won't get compensated for their time) and the witnesses (who won't get compensated for their time).  

But look. You don't get to kill someone, claim self defense, and then walk out into the sunshine never to think about what happened again.  As easy as you want to make it, it's in everybody's interest to make sure that that's in fact what you did.  Not everyone is as responsible or ethical or honest as you are.  And if I didn't know you, I'd damn sure insist on finding out (via a trial) that you were.  Because if you weren't, what happened probably wasn't self defense.  It was probably plain old murder, and if it was, you should pay for that.  There should be a high bar because it is easy to abuse.

In this case especially, the system seemed to be resisting moving forward with that process.  Systems will do that occasionally, because systems are made up of individuals who are susceptible to inertia and capture by powerful interests and good old fashioned fear.  

(and when I say "move the system forward," I don't mean "to a guilty verdict." I mean "to an attempt at resolution.")

I have to ask.  Have you ever been on a jury or inside a courtroom during a trial?

One apparently screwed-up police department investigation should not put the rights of millions of others to defend themselves at risk.  Without SYG, Gaspar pointed out correctly your options are A) Run B) Get dead or C) return fire and face prosecution.  No matter how you spin it, Wevus, facing prosecution is a penalty to the person being prosecuted.  I know you will continue to define punishment as a sentence or some form of adjudication.  You don’t get reimbursed for your time and legal fees if you are acquitted of a crime and if you can afford an attorney, you cannot use the public defender’s office.

I’m not comfortable with the idea that if I shot a black intruder in my home that I might be convicted because several jurors on my case assume I wouldn’t have shot the intruder if he were white and decide to say it was racially-motivated.  I find it highly improbable that you really can find an impartial jury who will put aside all prejudice when making decisions.  I believe it’s entirely appropriate for the police and the DA to interpret the law and decide whether or not I acted within the law.  If I acted within the law, as it is written, why the hell should I have to stand trial to prove that to 12 people who may or may not give a whit about my personal liberty?

I’m convinced you do not appreciate how closely most police departments and DA’s take this matter seriously and do their best to ensure that justice is served.  Three such cases are close to mind:

- Kenneth Gumm
- Jerome Ersland
- The beating death of Deadtown Bar owner Shawn Howard.

It’s obvious you and Nathan have not been around the court system nor observed very well how the investigative process actually works and what benefit that not only serves potential defendants but society as a whole.  You only seem interested in pointing out a flawed example or two and therefore the entire system should be changed to suit your paradigm.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on March 29, 2012, 12:28:49 pm
I know an assistant DA in a smaller county. They don't bring criminal charges against people unless they are pretty dang sure they can win. And they don't give up easily. They are extraordinarily smart, persistent people. If the DA in Florida thought he had a case, I'm sure they would be filing charges this instant. And yes I do trust them. There is no way a cover up of this scale could be persisting with the scrutiny it is facing. Plus, in this case don't you think the DA (if he/she enjoyed any kind of praise) would be chomping at the bit to do so? If the evidence isn't there it's not there, no matter how unfair it is. That is the system we live in, fortunately. It doesn't get it right every single time, but it is the closest possible without loosing every single freedom you hold dear.

Can the kid's family file a civil suit if he isn't charged, or does SYG protect him from that too? I ask, because for some reason the OJ case popped into my head this morning.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 12:49:44 pm
Gassie, I'm beginning to think you are dense. I am not a liberal. I am a progressive. Obviously, you read what you want and disregard the rest....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/inde
Post by: patric on March 29, 2012, 12:53:49 pm
it's looking like the police themselves were actually going to press charges against Zimmerman (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/29/report-police-initially-wanted-to-make-arrest-in-trayvon-martin-case/), but the prosecutors slow-played the investigation, at least in part because of concerns about legal hurdles surrounding the stand your ground law.

Actually, they seemed divided.  Down the road, the homicide investigator wanted charges pressed, but initially the officers at the scene told reporters at the scene that the shooting was justified.


I’m convinced you do not appreciate how closely most police departments and DA’s take this matter seriously and do their best to ensure that justice is served.  Three such cases are close to mind:

- Kenneth Gumm
- Jerome Ersland
- The beating death of Deadtown Bar owner Shawn Howard.

Didnt each of those have circumstances that disqualified them as self defense?
Ersland shot, stopped to reload, then continued to fire into the body,
the Deadtown Bar owner had been beating his (eventual) killer with brass knuckles, etc...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 12:54:09 pm
Gassie, I'm beginning to think you are dense. I am not a liberal. I am a progressive. Obviously, you read what you want and disregard the rest....

Isn’t that like saying: “I’m not a racist, anti-government, gun-toting, bible carrying moron!  I’m a tea bagger!”   ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2012, 01:00:04 pm
I am not a liberal. I am a progressive.

Many of us don't see the difference.  Please describe what you believe are the differences.  I'm serious and curious.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 01:13:49 pm
Many of us don't see the difference.  Please describe what you believe are the differences.  I'm serious and curious.

I think the Green Party is the closest current representation of progressive political policy.

Conservative is to Liberal as Tea Party is to Green Party.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TVwUzod5_yQ/TvTC0kBEBxI/AAAAAAAABBA/DqNvgVY4Dk8/s1600/mckinney.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2012, 01:16:57 pm
I know an assistant DA in a smaller county. They don't bring criminal charges against people unless they are pretty dang sure they can win. And they don't give up easily. They are extraordinarily smart, persistent people.

And then there is Tim Harris and his office....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 01:23:58 pm
I think the Green Party is the closest current representation of progressive political policy.

Conservative is to Liberal as Tea Party is to Green Party.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TVwUzod5_yQ/TvTC0kBEBxI/AAAAAAAABBA/DqNvgVY4Dk8/s1600/mckinney.jpg)


You are demented....I don't label. Except when it involves ....

It's so obvious what you stand for. I prefer to be fluid and flexible.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 01:30:47 pm
For "the most pathetic people on the planet" ....thought we'd continue today's teachings:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fezcs9ytrQo[/youtube]


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 01:37:12 pm
You are demented....I don't label. Except when it involves ....

It's so obvious what you stand for. I prefer to be fluid and flexible.

What do I stand for?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 01:39:17 pm
Zimmerman has problems with his story.  Now a video has surfaced of him getting out of the police car in which there’s no visible evidence that he was even remotely injured.  Granted, it’s hard to tell from surveillance video, but with the “severity” of injuries claimed (broken nose, scrapes and blood on the back of the head) it’s not readily apparent.  Should we assume they lost the evidentiary photos most PD’s would have shot?

Zimmerman’s side of the story looks less credible at this point.  Due to the grainy nature of the video I’d still reserve complete damnation for Zimmerman without seeing clear photos of his alleged injuries or wounds.

That was pretty much my exact reaction when I saw the video last night. Apparently it's clearer on TV, but I haven't seen it for myself except on YouTube (and ABC's site)

As far as wevus and I arguing that all such cases should go to trial, it's not just one or two failures. I haven't looked into Oklahoma, but there have been several recent cases in Florida where the SYG law appears to have been abused. Maybe this isn't the case in Oklahoma, but in Florida prosecutors seem to pretty much throw up their hands when self defense is claimed and there's absolutely clear evidence that it wasn't. The Martin case seems to be in a class of its own, but it's not the only instance of apparent SYG abuse.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 29, 2012, 01:39:24 pm
This was the Progressive ERA of the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era

The Progressive Era in the United States was a period of social activism and political reform that flourished from the 1840s to the 1920s. One main goal of the Progressive movement was purification of government, as Progressives tried to eliminate corruption by exposing and undercutting political machines and bosses. Many (but not all) Progressives supported prohibition in order to destroy the political power of local bosses based in saloons. At the same time, women's suffrage was promoted to bring a "purer" female vote into the arena. A second theme was achieving efficiency in every sector by identifying old ways that needed modernizing, and emphasizing scientific, medical and engineering solutions.
 
Many people led efforts to reform local government, public education, medicine, finance, insurance, industry, railroads, churches, and many other areas. Progressives transformed, professionalized and made "scientific" the social sciences, especially history, economics, and political science. In academic fields the day of the amateur author gave way to the research professor who published in the new scholarly journals and presses. The national political leaders included Theodore Roosevelt, Robert M. La Follette, Sr., Charles Evans Hughes and Herbert Hoover on the Republican side, and William Jennings Bryan, Woodrow Wilson and Al Smith on the Democratic side.
 
Initially the movement operated chiefly at local levels; later it expanded to state and national levels. Progressives drew support from the middle class, and supporters included many lawyers, teachers, physicians, ministers and business people. The Progressives strongly supported scientific methods as applied to economics, government, industry, finance, medicine, schooling, theology, education, and even the family. They closely followed advances underway at the time in Western Europe and adopted numerous policies, such as the banking laws which became the Federal Reserve System in 1914. They felt that old-fashioned ways meant waste and inefficiency, and eagerly sought out the "one best system".


This is the movement that is quietly sweeping the Democratic Party. Progressives came from both parties a hundred years ago, but so far in these days, it has only gained traction in the blue team.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 01:40:15 pm
What do I stand for?

I stand for Marshall's and good tequila. I'll keep my seat for most everything else, thanks.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 01:48:49 pm
I stand for Marshall's and good tequila. I'll keep my seat for most everything else, thanks.

TTC likes to classify people as racist, because that's what diddles his fiddle. 

At least this thread gives him an outlet for his favorite pejorative term.

He can simply call anyone that offers a difference of opinion or the advocation of jurisprudence a racist.

It must be immensely satisfying.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 01:55:48 pm
TTC likes to classify people as racist, because that's what diddles his fiddle. 

Calling people racist is silly. Most people probably aren't racist. They may do racist things or say racist things without realizing it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're a racist. Saying that someone is in fact a racist brings a person's state of mind into question, which is rarely helpful to a discussion and doesn't really matter anyway. What matters is that people stop saying and doing racist things, regardless of what their inner thoughts may or may not be.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 01:56:45 pm
That was pretty much my exact reaction when I saw the video last night. Apparently it's clearer on TV, but I haven't seen it for myself except on YouTube (and ABC's site)

As far as wevus and I arguing that all such cases should go to trial, it's not just one or two failures. I haven't looked into Oklahoma, but there have been several recent cases in Florida where the SYG law appears to have been abused. Maybe this isn't the case in Oklahoma, but in Florida prosecutors seem to pretty much throw up their hands when self defense is claimed and there's absolutely clear evidence that it wasn't. The Martin case seems to be in a class of its own, but it's not the only instance of apparent SYG abuse.

Something about a baby and bath water comes to mind.  I’d go on to say more lives have been saved than unjustly ended with SYG laws.

Op-ed to follow, but it provides some very good facts.  One thing which sticks in my mind is the coincidental 23% reduction in violent crime in Florida from 2005 to 2010.  2005 is when SYG was enacted in Florida.  The author correctly points out that would not be a sole reason but a significant factor.


Quote
The "stand your ground" defense, established in 2005 by the Florida Legislature, works and is effective if applied properly. The law essentially provides that a person may use deadly force in self-defense when there's reasonable belief of a deadly threat, and without an obligation to retreat first.

Although it wasn't codified as a law until 2005 in Florida, as early as 1921 the U.S. Supreme Court established that a man or woman has no duty to retreat where there is an imminent fear of death or bodily harm. Justice Oliver Wendell Homes Jr. wrote that "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife.”

Some individuals argue that the "stand your ground" defense has opened the door to a free-for-all shooting gallery. This is simply not true. Although the number of justifiable homicides in Florida has more than doubled since "stand your ground" was passed in 2005, the rate of violent crime in the state deceased by 23% from 2005 to 2010, according to FBI statistics. This is not to say that the "stand your ground" law in itself caused the decrease, but it certainly was a factor.

The main issue is not the law itself, but the way it is applied. The law is designed to protect innocent victims. It does not have any provision to protect original aggressors.

Since the Trayvon Martin shooting put "stand your ground" in the spotlight, the general public has misunderstood the law, believing that someone can be chased down and killed without repercussions. The specific facts and evidence that led police to apply the doctrine in the Martin case are unknown right now. The solution is better training for the police and more transparent investigations so the public can understand why and when the doctrine is applied.

We as citizens do not know everything the police use to come to the conclusion that a case involved self-defense. As such, we are led by the mainstream news media, which might not have a full understanding of the law and the specific evidence in every case. Education is key; a lynch mob mentality will not solve misconceptions about the law.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/story/2012-03-26/stand-your-ground-police/53795024/1


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 01:59:35 pm
Something about a baby and bath water comes to mind.

The same thing could be said about enacting an SYG law.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 29, 2012, 02:07:23 pm
The same thing could be said about enacting an SYG law.

Not at all.  SYG was devised as a way to better define what rights you have to defend yourself as a deterrent to violent crime.  It’s not designed as a way for you to shoot anyone you please, claim self-defense and get off free as a jay bird.

One last time, just for you and your thick-skulled compatriot Wevus:

PD’s and DA’s still review every homicide.  If they determine the shooting was not justified as a case of self-defense, they give it to a jury of the person’s peers and allow them to decide.  There is not and has never been any such thing as an “automatic trial” in our country.  Every crime is subject to review prior to charges being filed.  Charges are not filed if a case lacks merit, why should they be?  

It’s not perfect but this is how our justice system works and fortunately is one of the ways it differs from countries like Iran or Afghanistan.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2012, 02:20:10 pm
This is the movement that is quietly sweeping the Democratic Party. Progressives came from both parties a hundred years ago, but so far in these days, it has only gained traction in the blue team.

Not there yet though.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 02:40:26 pm
Not at all.  SYG was devised as a way to better define what rights you have to defend yourself as a deterrent to violent crime.  It’s not designed as a way for you to shoot anyone you please, claim self-defense and get off free as a jay bird.

That is not its design intent, but that does seem to have already happened in several cases in Florida.

And yes, I think the baby/bathwater pithiness applies equally. On the one hand, it makes it easier on people whose situation really does fall under the umbrella of self defense. On the other, it makes it easier for people to unnecessarily kill other people and get away with it.

That's not even my fundamental objection, though. My fundamental objection is that people should, whenever possible, resolve a situation without killing another human being. A too broad SYG law eliminates the incentive to not kill people whenever possible. I'm not really OK with that. As far as your complaints about a trial, again, I don't really give a flying love about somebody having to deal with the hassle of a trial when the other half of the tango is dead. Get some effing perspective. Cry me a bucking river. Seriously. ::)

It's pretty simple. If you don't want the hassle, don't kill people. If you have to, so be it. You shouldn't be punished for that. A trial is not punishment, it is adjudication. We seem to have forgotten that in this day and age of extensive police investigations. Besides, it's better for the shooter, too, because they can know with absolute certainty that they cannot be prosecuted in the future. There is no SoL on murder (in most, if not all, states)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2012, 02:47:10 pm

This is the movement that is quietly sweeping the Democratic Party. Progressives came from both parties a hundred years ago, but so far in these days, it has only gained traction in the blue team.


One can only hope.  There were a few "minutes" in the lat '60s and '70s when some progress was made, but then the Regressives took over again in the '80s - and gave us the "Great Regression".  Only now are we starting to see the first faint glimmers of progress.





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 02:54:55 pm
What do I stand for?

The pledge of allegiance?

I'm with Nate on this.... especially the beer and tequila part!

I started another thread for SYG...this one's for exposure.

BTW Michael, today's progressive movement is all about doing the responsible thing. And it's the opposite of obstructionism....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 02:56:01 pm
My fundamental objection is that people should, whenever possible, resolve a situation without killing another human being.

I wholeheartedly agree, but that shouldn't supersede their right to defend themselves and/or family without legal repercussions.

Not all situations offer peaceful resolution strategies.  It is naive to think that a 95lb woman is going to simply talk her 200lb assailant out of rape, or a 90 year old man is going to run from an armed youth.  These victims should feel confident in their ability to apply deadly force to preserve their lives without worrying about whether or not their actions will result in prison, loss of income, loss of job, or significant financial hardship.

Additionally, I feel secure in the knowledge that if someone attempts to break into my home right now, while I am at work, my wife, without hesitation can defend herself, and not be arrested, imprisoned, and put on trial for doing so.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 03:00:04 pm
Additionally, I feel secure in the knowledge that if someone attempts to break into my home right now, while I am at work, my wife, without hesitation can defend herself, and not be arrested, imprisoned, and put on trial for doing so.

SYG has absolutely nothing to do with that. Common law has provided for that since before the founding of our nation. Whatever happened to "tell it to the judge"?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 03:06:47 pm
I think you are looking for THIS thread:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18881.msg233725#msg233725


....the thread you are on here is for holding up a mirror to what law enforcement in Sanford Floriduh (and many other backwards communities) is all about.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oik6dXm-0l0[/youtube]


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 03:14:42 pm
¯\_(シ)_/¯


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 29, 2012, 03:22:09 pm
SYG has absolutely nothing to do with that. Common law has provided for that since before the founding of our nation. Whatever happened to "tell it to the judge"?

Sure it does.  My cop buddies used to joke (before SYG) that you should always drag the body inside before you call us.

If he's kicking the door in, she can shoot him.  She doesn't have to wait until he has already committed the crime, or broken the door down.


"A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle of another person, or a place of business is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence."


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 03:34:23 pm
Would it please you guys if I just referred to it as White Pride?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 03:43:21 pm
Sure it does.  My cop buddies used to joke (before SYG) that you should always drag the body inside before you call us.

If you shoot someone through a door who isn't shooting at you, you should go to jail for terminal stupidity. Seeing something in a movie doesn't make it a good idea out here in the real world.

By the way, if that's a serious concern for you, I strongly recommend you reinforce your door jambs so you can feel secure in the knowledge that you have plenty of time to call the police and they have plenty of time to arrive to stop the forced entry before it becomes an entry. It's not that expensive unless you have to replace the door because your existing one is a piece of junk. It's a lot better than shooting your neighbor's kid who was pounding on your door for whatever reason.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2012, 04:11:50 pm
If you shoot someone through a door who isn't shooting at you, you should go to jail for terminal stupidity. Seeing something in a movie doesn't make it a good idea out here in the real world.

By the way, if that's a serious concern for you, I strongly recommend you reinforce your door jambs so you can feel secure in the knowledge that you have plenty of time to call the police and they have plenty of time to arrive to stop the forced entry before it becomes an entry. It's not that expensive unless you have to replace the door because your existing one is a piece of junk. It's a lot better than shooting your neighbor's kid who was pounding on your door for whatever reason.


Nobody is gonna be kicking in your door to sell you Girl Scout cookies.  The real world IS that if someone is kicking in my door, there is bad intent.  And that not only justifies, but mandates self-defense.

Talk about living in movie world...have you not seen how easy it is to kick in a door?  Geez, nathan, I thought you were into reality more than that...



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 04:34:15 pm
Nobody is gonna be kicking in your door to sell you Girl Scout cookies.  The real world IS that if someone is kicking in my door, there is bad intent.  And that not only justifies, but mandates self-defense.

Talk about living in movie world...have you not seen how easy it is to kick in a door?  Geez, nathan, I thought you were into reality more than that...

If they're on the other side of the door, they haven't kicked it in. Lest you forget, it could be the cops serving a no-knock warrant on the wrong house. ;)

As far as the ease of kicking in doors, yes, I'm quite aware. That's why I said that if Gaspar thinks that there actually is such a threat then he should consider reinforcing his jambs. With a good solid door and steel-reinforced jambs, nobody's coming through without a battering ram, and even then it will take a while.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on March 29, 2012, 05:16:50 pm
My cop buddies used to joke (before SYG) that you should always drag the body inside before you call us.
If he's kicking the door in, she can shoot him.  She doesn't have to wait until he has already committed the crime, or broken the door down.

So what ended up being the outcome of this case (other than the rumor that the shooting victim had an LE connection)?

TULSA, Oklahoma -- An off-duty Tulsa County Sheriff's Deputy shot and critically wounded a man at the deputy's apartment complex early Saturday morning.

On Sunday, The Tulsa County Sheriff's Office said the deputy is on routine, paid leave while the shooting is being investigated.  They are treating the shooting as an "on duty" shooting, according to spokes person Shannon Clark.

Corporal Dan Miller with the Tulsa Police Department said the deputy heard someone outside "messing with" his door at Somerset Place Apartments, 9300 E. 65th St. South, at about 4:30 a.m.

"The deputy had his service weapon with him and felt there was some kind of threat," Miller said.

He grabbed a gun, opened the door and saw a white man described as about 27 years old at his door.

The man was shot three times and was taken to a local hospital in life-threatening condition.

Miller said the investigation was in its early stages but that police haven't found a weapon on the injured man. There was no indication that the two men knew each other, he said.

The injured man is described as a 27-year-old, heavyset white male. The name of the deputy has not yet been released.

They did not release the name of the victim or the deputy involved in the shooting.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: GG on March 29, 2012, 08:05:00 pm
Parents of murdered British students criticise Barack Obama
The parents of two British students murdered in Florida have criticised President Barack Obama for his lack of compassion over their son's deaths.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9173820/Parents-of-murdered-British-students-criticise-Barack-Obama.html

His failure to respond to three letters sent to the White House was because there was no "political value" and not worthy of a few minutes of his time.

They spoke out as teenager Shawn Tyson began a life sentence after being found guilty of the murder of James Cooper and James Kouzaris last April.

The 17 year old, who shot the men as they begged for their lives, will die in prison.

His conviction of first degree murder carries an mandatory life sentence without the chance of parole.

The powerfully built teen even looked bored as emotional DVD presentations about the dead men prepared by their grieving parents were shown in court.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on March 29, 2012, 08:15:50 pm
Maybe the two Brits didn't have IT or skillets....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt6zqCXwMXA


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2012, 08:16:55 pm
Maybe the two Brits didn't have IT or skillets....

Or perhaps their killer isn't walking free.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on March 29, 2012, 08:18:12 pm
Or perhaps their killer isn't walking free.
Or perhaps these two Brits just didn't look like Obama's son....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on March 29, 2012, 08:49:16 pm
Maybe the two Brits didn't have IT or skillets....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt6zqCXwMXA

I would hate to get kabonged by a skillet.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2012, 09:02:46 pm
Parents of murdered British students criticise Barack Obama
The parents of two British students murdered in Florida have criticised President Barack Obama for his lack of compassion over their son's deaths.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9173820/Parents-of-murdered-British-students-criticise-Barack-Obama.html

His failure to respond to three letters sent to the White House was because there was no "political value" and not worthy of a few minutes of his time.

They spoke out as teenager Shawn Tyson began a life sentence after being found guilty of the murder of James Cooper and James Kouzaris last April.

The 17 year old, who shot the men as they begged for their lives, will die in prison.

His conviction of first degree murder carries an mandatory life sentence without the chance of parole.

The powerfully built teen even looked bored as emotional DVD presentations about the dead men prepared by their grieving parents were shown in court.

Just to clarify, Obama did not bring the subject up regarding Martin's death. He was asked about it and responded in a diplomatic manner while having a rose garden presentation at the White House. This is just another example of twisting truth with false equivalency.

Then we have George Zimmerman's Daddy, Robert, coming forward condemning Obama, a week later, saying ""I never foresaw so much hate coming from the president, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP."  

Hard to comprehend this attitude and disrespect for our country until you realize this is the schmuck that raised George Zimmerman.

And Guido (GG), you need to watch more Fox News: http://www.examiner.com/liberal-in-baltimore/orlando-s-fox-news-gives-judge-zimmerman-a-platform-to-lie-for-his-son


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: dbacks fan on March 30, 2012, 01:02:29 am
You are demented....I don't label. Except when it involves ....

It's so obvious what you stand for. I prefer to be fluid and flexible.

So you are like Bob Dole without Viagra.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 30, 2012, 06:20:13 am
If they're on the other side of the door, they haven't kicked it in. Lest you forget, it could be the cops serving a no-knock warrant on the wrong house. ;)

As far as the ease of kicking in doors, yes, I'm quite aware. That's why I said that if Gaspar thinks that there actually is such a threat then he should consider reinforcing his jambs. With a good solid door and steel-reinforced jambs, nobody's coming through without a battering ram, and even then it will take a while.

Interestingly enough, that's one of the scenarios used in Oklahoma gun safety classes.  It has actually played out several times already in Oklahoma.

It's always a good idea to announce that you have a gun and you tell them to stop.  In our case that is typically accompanied by the crack of a militarized 12 gauge loaded with deer slugs.  Our front door is glass in a decretive pattern with steel mullions, the jam is reinforced, however we would still choose not to rely on that.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: CharlieSheen on March 30, 2012, 07:43:47 am
Parents of murdered British students criticise Barack Obama
The parents of two British students murdered in Florida have criticised President Barack Obama for his lack of compassion over their son's deaths.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9173820/Parents-of-murdered-British-students-criticise-Barack-Obama.html

His failure to respond to three letters sent to the White House was because there was no "political value" and not worthy of a few minutes of his time.

They spoke out as teenager Shawn Tyson began a life sentence after being found guilty of the murder of James Cooper and James Kouzaris last April.

The 17 year old, who shot the men as they begged for their lives, will die in prison.

His conviction of first degree murder carries an mandatory life sentence without the chance of parole.

The powerfully built teen even looked bored as emotional DVD presentations about the dead men prepared by their grieving parents were shown in court.

Now that you mention it, I didn't get my phone call or mention of anybody in my family that has died or been killed. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2012, 08:10:31 am
If you shoot someone through a door who isn't shooting at you, you should go to jail for terminal stupidity. Seeing something in a movie doesn't make it a good idea out here in the real world.

By the way, if that's a serious concern for you, I strongly recommend you reinforce your door jambs so you can feel secure in the knowledge that you have plenty of time to call the police and they have plenty of time to arrive to stop the forced entry before it becomes an entry. It's not that expensive unless you have to replace the door because your existing one is a piece of junk. It's a lot better than shooting your neighbor's kid who was pounding on your door for whatever reason.

This scenario played out at my neighbor’s house across the street about 19 years ago, long before I’d moved into the ‘hood.  At the time, he was married to the daughter of a TPD officer, and my neighbor is an avid outdoorsman so she had been trained in the use of guns.  They also trained her older children in the use of guns.

One afternoon in the middle of July a man and his female accomplice kicked in the front door of the house.  The children ran to a bedroom and locked the door.  As soon as that door knob began to rattle, the oldest of the children (13 or 14 at the time IIRC) fired a .357 through the door and center-punched the intruder in the chest.  The intruder staggered back out the front door and dropped dead in the front yard.

Should this child, or even if it had been an adult, be arrested and imprisoned for this act of self-defense?  Should Custosnox been arrested for shooting at the POS who was attempting to kick in his door or simply open the door for the potential intruder and welcome him in before firing?

Since you think it’s such a great idea for everyone to stand trial if they kill someone while exercising their Constitutional and otherwise legal rights to protect themselves, how about everyone who is involved in a fatal car crash should go on trial?  How would that work for you if you ran over and killed a bicyclist who darted out in front of your car?  I mean, hey, even though the cops and the DA determine it’s just an unfortunate accident and the cyclist was stupid for darting out in front of you it’s probably a good idea to put you through the stress and expense of a trial just so 12 of your peers can be in agreement with the police and the DA that yes, in fact, you were operating your car legally but someone else ran in front of you leading to his death.

Please explain how that’s any different then some dumbshit wielding a knife in the Promenade parking lot ending up with a fatal case of lead poisoning.  He was just as stupid as the cyclist in the above example and essentially got in the way of someone else legally minding their business.

You are grossly mistaken if you think SYG emboldens people or leads to a wild west mentality.  The majority of people who are armed for purposes of self defense realize what a serious responsibility it is.  If they act outside the laws of reasonable self-defense they will pay the price (at least those who have gone through proper CCL training and anyone with common sense).  If I ever find my self in a situation where I had to exercise that right, I don’t know that I’d ever be 100% okay knowing I ended someone else’s life, but at least I’d still be alive and not another victim.  Criminals knowing there’s the potential that the citizen they are going after may be able to overpower them or simply aim and fire is a proven deterrent.

Just to clarify, Obama did not bring the subject up regarding Martin's death. He was asked about it and responded in a diplomatic manner while having a rose garden presentation at the White House. This is just another example of twisting truth with false equivalency.



Yes, because we all know that questions are never seeded at pressers with the prez.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: CharlieSheen on March 30, 2012, 08:22:30 am
This scenario played out at my neighbor’s house across the street about 19 years ago, long before I’d moved into the ‘hood.  At the time, he was married to the daughter of a TPD officer, and my neighbor is an avid outdoorsman so she had been trained in the use of guns.  They also trained her older children in the use of guns.

One afternoon in the middle of July a man and his female accomplice kicked in the front door of the house.  The children ran to a bedroom and locked the door.  As soon as that door knob began to rattle, the oldest of the children (13 or 14 at the time IIRC) fired a .357 through the door and center-punched the intruder in the chest.  The intruder staggered back out the front door and dropped dead in the front yard.

Should this child, or even if it had been an adult, be arrested and imprisoned for this act of self-defense?  Should Custosnox been arrested for shooting at the POS who was attempting to kick in his door or simply open the door for the potential intruder and welcome him in before firing?

Since you think it’s such a great idea for everyone to stand trial if they kill someone while exercising their Constitutional and otherwise legal rights to protect themselves, how about everyone who is involved in a fatal car crash should go on trial?  How would that work for you if you ran over and killed a bicyclist who darted out in front of your car?  I mean, hey, even though the cops and the DA determine it’s just an unfortunate accident and the cyclist was stupid for darting out in front of you it’s probably a good idea to put you through the stress and expense of a trial just so 12 of your peers can be in agreement with the police and the DA that yes, in fact, you were operating your car legally but someone else ran in front of you leading to his death.

Please explain how that’s any different then some dumbshit wielding a knife in the Promenade parking lot ending up with a fatal case of lead poisoning.  He was just as stupid as the cyclist in the above example and essentially got in the way of someone else legally minding their business.

You are grossly mistaken if you think SYG emboldens people or leads to a wild west mentality.  The majority of people who are armed for purposes of self defense realize what a serious responsibility it is.  If they act outside the laws of reasonable self-defense they will pay the price (at least those who have gone through proper CCL training and anyone with common sense).  If I ever find my self in a situation where I had to exercise that right, I don’t know that I’d ever be 100% okay knowing I ended someone else’s life, but at least I’d still be alive and not another victim.  Criminals knowing there’s the potential that the citizen they are going after may be able to overpower them or simply aim and fire is a proven deterrent.

Yes, because we all know that questions are never seeded at pressers with the prez.

Cmon Conan.. Obviously if they are inside your house it is different than on the porch.  (unless you were referring it always being stupid shooting through a door). These laws are there for a reason, and they should exist.  However, shooting people for knocking on your door.    Jahovah's Witness or not isn't right.  Is somebody trying to open my front door at night trying to rob me?  Probably.. So get the gun, call the cops, be prepared.   It could just be a very very drunk person who went to the wrong house or your kid surprising you from college early.

(http://i.imgur.com/ZipcC.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 30, 2012, 08:23:00 am
Well this should put everything in perspective.  Apparently Zimmerman was working with the police in a conspiracy to steal Trayvon's organs.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=POSUrFr4ImY#![/youtube]


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on March 30, 2012, 08:46:34 am
Ok now wait a minute. Shooting before screaming "Who the f*ck is it" just doesnt make sense.
If you shoot first without warning then your a dumba$$ and shouldnt have a fire arm.

Just like a buddy of mine said. As he did the old "Klik Klak" of his sawed off shotgun. Thats Universal language. Your intruder might not speak English.
That goes along with the "Beware of Dog" sign. Get one with a picture of a mean dog. Your burglar may not be able to read.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2012, 09:01:51 am
Cmon Conan.. Obviously if they are inside your house it is different than on the porch.  (unless you were referring it always being stupid shooting through a door). These laws are there for a reason, and they should exist.  However, shooting people for knocking on your door.    Jahovah's Witness or not isn't right.  Is somebody trying to open my front door at night trying to rob me?  Probably.. So get the gun, call the cops, be prepared.   It could just be a very very drunk person who went to the wrong house or your kid surprising you from college early.

(http://i.imgur.com/ZipcC.jpg)

Neither one of my daughters would kick in my front door in the middle of the night coming home from college to surprise me.  I’m also not aware of there being a rash of people being shot for knocking on front doors.  The door is wood framed with a full glass center panel so I can see who is on the porch.  Same with the two rear doors.

And hell no I wouldn’t fire without first doing a quick assessment of what was going on at the front door if the handle were jiggling.  Nor would I even grab my gun just because someone knocked on the door.  If someone is jiggling the knob and trying to insert a key in the lock, it’s obvious they are at the wrong house and I would advise them as such and that they need to leave the premises immediately.  If, after that warning, they proceeded to kick or otherwise force the door open, I’ll call 911, but I’m sure as hell not waiting five minutes for the cops to show up, nor am I going to invite my intruder in for a cup of tea and chat about his/her messed up childhood while we wait for the cops to show up.  They’ve crossed the line when they attempt to forcibly open the door after being advised they are at the wrong house and that the owner/occupant is armed.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on March 30, 2012, 09:18:41 am
Neither one of my daughters would kick in my front door in the middle of the night coming home from college to surprise me.

My parents gave me a key.  I also had a key to my aunt's house when my family moved out here but I went back to school and while I was in the Navy.  No need to kick down doors.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on March 30, 2012, 09:20:10 am
My parents gave me a key.  I also had a key to my aunt's house when my family moved out here but I went back to school and while I was in the Navy.  No need to kick down doors.

Wow. Sounds like a trust issue. Good for you.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on March 30, 2012, 09:35:09 am
Neither one of my daughters would kick in my front door in the middle of the night coming home from college to surprise me.  I’m also not aware of there being a rash of people being shot for knocking on front doors.  The door is wood framed with a full glass center panel so I can see who is on the porch.  Same with the two rear doors.

And hell no I wouldn’t fire without first doing a quick assessment of what was going on at the front door if the handle were jiggling.  Nor would I even grab my gun just because someone knocked on the door.  If someone is jiggling the knob and trying to insert a key in the lock, it’s obvious they are at the wrong house and I would advise them as such and that they need to leave the premises immediately.  If, after that warning, they proceeded to kick or otherwise force the door open, I’ll call 911, but I’m sure as hell not waiting five minutes for the cops to show up, nor am I going to invite my intruder in for a cup of tea and chat about his/her messed up childhood while we wait for the cops to show up.  They’ve crossed the line when they attempt to forcibly open the door after being advised they are at the wrong house and that the owner/occupant is armed.



I'm a busy man.  If they are kicking and not responding to auditory warnings, they are getting shot.  I'm not going to chat them up or invite them in for a tickle-fight, nor is anyone else in my family.  

Instead of posting a sign with the image of a vicious dog, I may entertain the idea of posting a sign showing a man getting a hole blown in him for kicking in a door.  I'll have to work on that graphic.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2012, 09:37:13 am
I'm a busy man.  If they are kicking and not responding to auditory warnings, they are getting shot.  I'm not going to chat them up or invite them in for a tickle-fight, nor is anyone else in my family.  

Instead of posting a sign with the image of a vicious dog, I may entertain the idea of posting a sign showing a man getting a hole blown in him for kicking in a door.  I'll have to work on that graphic.



Send me a copy when you are done. 

I’m afraid someone might not be able to read: “There’s nothing in this house worth dying for” so a universal graphic would be nice


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Breadburner on March 30, 2012, 09:50:40 am
I just poured some beer for my hoodie.... :'( :'( :'(


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on March 30, 2012, 09:55:10 am
Send me a copy when you are done. 

I’m afraid someone might not be able to read: “There’s nothing in this house worth dying for” so a universal graphic would be nice

What you and Gasper are forgetting is Federally mandated safety in the workplace laws.  If a person's chosen career is to break down doors, rob and beat or kill people, you have no right to make that dangerous for them.

The proper way to handle it is to allow them to break down your door, kill your wife, rape your daughter, beat you to a critical condition and safely leave.  Then call the cops and let them take care of it. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 30, 2012, 10:14:19 am
You are grossly mistaken if you think SYG emboldens people or leads to a wild west mentality.

I wish that were the case, but it seems that is not actually the case. No rigorous studies have been performed, so we're both just talking out our asses if we try to make a statement of fact like that.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on March 30, 2012, 10:21:05 am
I wish that were the case, but it seems that is not actually the case. No rigorous studies have been performed, so we're both just talking out our asses if we try to make a statement of fact like that.

See the last part of your first sentence and compare it to the last part of your second sentence.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on March 30, 2012, 10:37:16 am
See the last part of your first sentence and compare it to the last part of your second sentence.

That's why I was making a statement of opinion based on news reports of questionable cases. ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on March 30, 2012, 12:19:23 pm
(http://www.woodartbygeorge.com/images/Products/9.25.08/911.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 30, 2012, 12:49:21 pm
Well this should put everything in perspective.  Apparently Zimmerman was working with the police in a conspiracy to steal Trayvon's organs.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=POSUrFr4ImY#![/youtube]

Listen up Gassie. I always go to the youtube page to read the comments which give me a frame of reference.

Here's a sample from YOUR Youtube link:
Quote
Listen to this dumb ****** ook his coonspiracy theory! Isn't this the stupid spook that was "Grady" on Sanford and Son? Hey bootlips! The kid attacked Zimmerman and got what he deserved! HAHAHAHAHA! Another dead ghetto gutterrat thug POS!

Why don't you post the link that led you to this Dick Gregory (a great American) Youtube?

Man up.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 30, 2012, 01:00:13 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5MSP48NH4U[/youtube]

Law enforcement gone crazy....





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 31, 2012, 12:01:02 pm
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/melissa-harris-perry/46843623#46843623

Please watch this.....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on April 02, 2012, 09:36:52 am
Heard this over the weekend. Just a sad state of affairs all around. Nobody really to blame but those that create fear.

“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life,” Jesse Jackson once told an audience, “than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery—then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on April 02, 2012, 11:29:16 am
Not to go too far off topic, but when did schools stop teaching grammar?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 02, 2012, 11:34:35 am
I heard the part of the tape this morning of the young man moaning and pleading for help, then the sound of a gunshot. It casts a lot of doubt that Zimmerman's account of shooting to save his own life is accurate. This is a murder case. I think some of you should go back and review your posts while listening to this kid cry for help.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 02, 2012, 12:27:05 pm
What makes the tragedy even worse now is that it looks as if forces with interests on both sides of the argument have attempted to sensationalize the incident.

The whole 911 call has been made public now and we find that NBC (who originally released the call) edited it to inflame racial tensions, and make the story more sensational.

NBC's original aired call: Zimmerman: "This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black."

The actual call:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

Either way, by continuing to follow Martin and ignoring the advice of the dispatcher, what Zimmerman did was wrong and obviously led to the tragedy as we currently understand it, but for the media to take a 911 call that contained the typical dialogue that a dispatcher would implement (macro details to micro details about the description of the subject) and to turn it into what sounds like a case of racial profiling is outrageous!  In the actual call, Zimmerman never addresses race, only when asked does he make the comment that "He looks black" and the way he says it is with the inflection of a question, as if he's not sure.

NBC is saying that they don't know how this happened and are "launching an investigation."

http://www.nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04/nbc-investigating-segment-on-zimmerman-call.html?imw=Y

There will be no justice for Trayvon as long as people want to use him as a pawn.  There will be no conviction of Zimmerman as long as idiots in the media do things like this.  If Zimmerman is guilty this makes it look like the media was out to frame him in the court of public opinion.  His attorneys are going to have a hay-day with this!






Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 02, 2012, 12:37:33 pm
Or, like the conservative Daily Caller, who printed 152 tweets that the dead teenager had sent in an effort to make him look thuggish, then spent an inordinate amount of time and money to use the videos to insist that Zimmerman had a wound on his head.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-case-exposes-worst-media-210020839.html Of course Yahoo is culpable with their headlines that rarely match their stories. These things make you wonder...what else have we been fed the last few decades.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 02, 2012, 12:40:05 pm
Or, like the conservative Daily Caller, who printed 152 tweets that the dead teenager had sent in an effort to make him look thuggish, then spent an inordinate amount of time and money to use the videos to insist that Zimmerman had a wound on his head.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-case-exposes-worst-media-210020839.html Of course Yahoo is culpable with their headlines that rarely match their stories. These things make you wonder...what else have we been fed the last few decades.


Exactly.  As I said, forces on both sides. . .


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 02, 2012, 12:49:03 pm
Exactly.  As I said, forces on both sides. . .

But of course you only cite one side...not surprising.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 02, 2012, 01:16:50 pm
This is why it is so important not to rush to judgement on things like this.  We are but a bunch of "dolts" on an inter-webs forum, and you see how easy some of us leap into the mob.  The same is happening with millions of people who glue themselves to the tube, many incapable of reasonable discussion or objective analysis.

We've seen cases where murders go free because they become sensationalized, tried or acquitted in the court of public opinion, or the media becomes so discriminatory against them to produce a block-buster story that they make it impossible to prosecute them effectively.

We have one side showing old photos of the victim as a child and the other showing current shots of him coated in tattoos and gold teeth.  One side shows old photos of Zimmerman from 7 years ago in a mug-shot and the other shows recent images of him in a suit and tie. Depending on your source of news you get a completely different visual, and accounting of events.  All of them are flawed!

Until an impartial jury is able to evaluate all of the evidence, no one is going to get the truth.

Quote
But of course you only cite one side...not surprising.
. . .and that's not true Hoss.  I have urged caution in judgement since the beginning of this thread.  I understand that you may have your mind made up, and I too may have my opinion, and we may actually share the exact same conclusions, but I don't think it is wise or constructive to publicly accuse someone of murder, especially since the evidence we have is so obviously tainted.






Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 02, 2012, 01:52:32 pm
This is why it is so important not to rush to judgement on things like this.  

The unedited 911 tapes have been available from Sanford's website for a month. Whose fault is it if you chose not to listen to them? Also, I would love to see any evidence you have of NBC or anyone else airing the tape in edited form.

BTW, the tweets and stuff were reported in the Daily Caller, but the people digging them up (and misidentifying a Facebook page as Martin's. which is where the "thuggish" photos originate, by the way) were none other than the fine folks at Stormfront. One presumes less overtly racist folks have taken up the effort by now, but I don't know for sure.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 02, 2012, 02:29:34 pm
The unedited 911 tapes have been available from Sanford's website for a month. Whose fault is it if you chose not to listen to them? Also, I would love to see any evidence you have of NBC or anyone else airing the tape in edited form.

BTW, the tweets and stuff were reported in the Daily Caller, but the people digging them up (and misidentifying a Facebook page as Martin's. which is where the "thuggish" photos originate, by the way) were none other than the fine folks at Stormfront. One presumes less overtly racist folks have taken up the effort by now, but I don't know for sure.

I guess I'm not following you, besides your constant desire to find a way to disagree with me an others.

Is there something wrong with not rushing to judgment?  Is there some wisdom in trying people based on all of the fluff and heresy presented by the media that I am unaware of?  Is there perhaps an excellent case study with some graphs or something that shows how effective mob justice really is?

As always, we await your expert adjudication.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 02, 2012, 03:00:52 pm
Also, I would love to see any evidence you have of NBC or anyone else airing the tape in edited form.


It looks as if NBC is conducting an internal probe over the edited version of the tape Gassy is talking about. Is that sort of evidence good enough for ya?

http://xfinity.comcast.net/blogs/tv/2012/04/01/furor-over-edited-trayvon-911-tape-spurs-internal-nbc-probe/

And why is there this rush to judgment? If people are pissed about the police not arresting Zimmerman, I get it. Rail away. But it seems that the vitriol is directed at Zimmerman and the effort to turn this tragedy into a new front on the race war. Seriously, "white" Hispanics? Jackson and Sharpton? It's disgusting.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 02, 2012, 05:08:16 pm
Seriously, "white" Hispanics?

Hispanic isn't a race, my friend. Besides, there's plenty of blanco vs. negro to our south. Not that it's terribly relevant to this case. Zimmerman may or may not be a racist or have said a racist thing, but it doesn't change the fact he stalked and gunned down a kid.

As far as rushing to judgement goes, people do that all the time. In this case, few people are calling for anything more than Zimmerman being arrested and put on trial. His not having been arrested certainly doesn't help the outrage in the least.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 02, 2012, 05:18:24 pm
Hispanic isn't a race, my friend. Besides, there's plenty of blanco vs. negro to our south. Not that it's terribly relevant to this case. Zimmerman may or may not be a racist or have said a racist thing, but it doesn't change the fact he stalked and gunned down a kid.

As far as rushing to judgement goes, people do that all the time. In this case, few people are calling for anything more than Zimmerman being arrested and put on trial. His not having been arrested certainly doesn't help the outrage in the least.

Then why call him a "white Hispanic"? What's the damned point of referring to his race anyway unless it was to make it a white on black thing. Period. And you asked for evidence of an edited tape and I gave it to you. Do you also want to talk about the video footage of Zimmerman's injury from ABC? This thing needs to play out before anyone gets convicted. Hell, the way you portray it, Martin was minding his own business and some white guy just walked up and shot him for no reason.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 02, 2012, 05:30:52 pm
Hell, the way you portray it, Martin was minding his own business and some white guy just walked up and shot him for no reason.

Best evidence is that Martin was indeed minding his own business until Zimmerman decided to confront him. Zimmerman himself could not articulate anything suspicious about Martin on the 911 call other than the fact he was walking down the street while it was raining (as if that isn't a daily occurrence in central florida) and that he was wearing a hoodie.

NBC airing or not airing an edited version of the tape makes no difference to the audio recordings that have been available for a month. Maybe better evidence will be available at trial than is presently publicly available. That's what trials are for.

Whether or not Zimmerman used a racist slur in his complaint about "those [whatever]s" always getting away doesn't matter that much. People are outraged at him for shooting Martin. People are outraged at the Sanford PD because they have a long history of racism in their department and this seems to be just one more in a long line of events reinforcing that. I don't know if it is or not. I'm glad that investigations are occurring; hopefully they will be conclusive one way or the other.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 03, 2012, 06:41:23 am
Nate,

Thanks for the explanation on race.  In the future I will correct the DMV, IRS, Public School System, Census, Health Insurance Companies, College Admissions Offices, and all other organizations that have that little "RACE:" box on their applications that allow you to check HISPANIC as a selection.

I always thought race was based on geographic ancestry, ethnicity, or just phenotypic characteristics.  As with everything in the liberal world, I am learning that it is necessary to shift and redefine things to fit popular purpose and political objectives.

If Zimmerman's mother was Asian, he would be White-Asian, and Asian would no longer be considered a race.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 07:29:04 am
Nate,

Thanks for the explanation on race.  In the future I will correct the DMV, IRS, Public School System, Census, Health Insurance Companies, College Admissions Offices, and all other organizations that have that little "RACE:" box on their applications that allow you to check HISPANIC as a selection.

I always thought race was based on geographic ancestry, ethnicity, or just phenotypic characteristics.  As with everything in the liberal world, I am learning that it is necessary to shift and redefine things to fit popular purpose and political objectives.

If Zimmerman's mother was Asian, he would be White-Asian, and Asian would no longer be considered a race.

Back before rocks turned into dirt, I was taught there are four races, Caucasian, Negro, Asian, and American Indian.  (Not sure about the proper names at the time for Blacks and Asians and American Indians.)   Geographic isolation probably allowed that development.   World travel allowed mixing.  Maybe we are no better than alley cats and mutts now.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on April 03, 2012, 08:49:36 am
Then why call him a "white Hispanic"? What's the damned point of referring to his race anyway unless it was to make it a white on black thing. Period. And you asked for evidence of an edited tape and I gave it to you. Do you also want to talk about the video footage of Zimmerman's injury from ABC? This thing needs to play out before anyone gets convicted. Hell, the way you portray it, Martin was minding his own business and some white guy just walked up and shot him for no reason.



According to reporting at the WaPo, (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/why-did-new-york-times-call-george-zimmerman-white-hispanic/2012/03/28/gIQAW6fngS_blog.html) the NYT coined the term(Zimmerman is mixed race, fwiw) and then, when it became a distraction (and attracted a rant from Bernard Crazypants Goldberg on Fox) dropped it in favor of "hispanic."  Their rationale is that, because it's being looked at as a civil rights case, race is important. 

If you feel like believing that's part of the Great Liberal Make-You-Whiteys-Feel-Bad-About-Yourselves Conspiracy, I can't stop you, but you should at least hear how it actually played out, and not how Bernard Crazy Goldberg is saying it did.

In my opinion, race IS important in this case, but it's much less important what Zimmerman is or is not, and it's much more important what Martin was, which was definitely African American.  And which was, at least in great part, the reason he was shot. The discussion about the stand your ground laws is obscuring the only race angle that really matters, that an unarmed black kid was stalked by and then supposedly grappled with a guy who was visibly packing heat, and -- surprise! the black kid winds up dead and the guy who was packing heat has a far less than ironclad alibi, and yet the police look the other way and won't even touch the gunman until there're nationwide demonstrations.  IMO, THAT'S where race intersects with this case, and focusing on how bad it is that a newspaper bungles a single descriptor (and then course-corrects, fwiw) is the typical Fox News misdirection tactic.  And Guido, you're falling for it. 

Cases like this, in the modern world, will absolutely suffer from a very high noise to signal ratio.  There's going to be a lot of bullshit spouted, because between the world that Fox News and the internet created, we're a population of know-it-all rage-heads, and not afraid to spew about what we don't know about.  What's happening here will now ALWAYS happen, and it won't matter if it gets lib dander up or gets all you cons in lather.  Lamenting that is fruitless and a waste of precious calories.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 03, 2012, 09:31:16 am
In the future I will correct the DMV, IRS, Public School System, Census, Health Insurance Companies, College Admissions Offices, and all other organizations that have that little "RACE:" box on their applications that allow you to check HISPANIC as a selection.

I wouldn't put too much faith in what you see as choices on a lot of those forms. They are not the arbiters of what race is. They keep track of information for reasons other than a scientific definition of race. As I pointed out on another thread, a good definition is on Wiki and refers to the dilution of the labels for the three major races into general terms for both political and pragmatic reasons.

Remember, they also used to ask women college applicants the nature, timing and character of their menstrual cycles, and, signs on gravel trucks assure you they are not responsible for damage to your car. Go figure.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 03, 2012, 09:45:25 am
Red,

Who taught you American Indian was a race?

Not true.

3 races. That's it....

You've heard me say it before, but in 50 years there will still be 3 races. Just fewer full blooded. A lot fewer....the George Zimmerman's of the world and right wing butt boys will not be able to guess who is a "coon" and who isn't.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EcAkZrCnRYA[/youtube]

TTC


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 10:26:11 am
Red,
Who taught you American Indian was a race?

I think it was in elementary school.  So long ago I don't remember the details but I do remember more than 3.  Maybe that was the thing in the 50s.

Edit:
Maybe it was Eskimos


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 03, 2012, 10:28:19 am
Its easy to confuse with the other four races from grade school....the 50yd, 100yd, 200yd and 600yd races. Easy mistake. ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 11:39:06 am
Its easy to confuse with the other four races from grade school....the 50yd, 100yd, 200yd and 600yd races. Easy mistake. ;D

Probably not.  I was a lousy athlete even then.  I did OK in classroom studies though.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 03, 2012, 11:46:40 am
Its easy to confuse with the other four races from grade school....the 50yd, 100yd, 200yd and 600yd races. Easy mistake. ;D

Auqa. Those were called "Dash" not really sure I ever ran a 200 or 600 yard one though.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 03, 2012, 11:52:42 am
Auqa. Those were called "Dash" not really sure I ever ran a 200 or 600 yard one though.

I think you are right. The 600 at my school was called the "600 yd walk or run" which was a necessary nod to what was actually happening. It was part of the Presidents Fitness program that started under Kennedy. We were encouraged to participate, which meant forced.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on April 03, 2012, 01:07:35 pm
Cases like this, in the modern world, will absolutely suffer from a very high noise to signal ratio.  There's going to be a lot of bullshit spouted, because between the world that Fox News and the internet created, we're a population of know-it-all rage-heads, and not afraid to spew about what we don't know about.  What's happening here will now ALWAYS happen, and it won't matter if it gets lib dander up or gets all you cons in lather.  Lamenting that is fruitless and a waste of precious calories.

Well stated.

I do disagree that race is a necessary part of this particular incident. My son (a 6 foot tall white 13 year-old) loves to wear hoodies and goes to school in North Tulsa. I shudder to think about him running into a crazed neighborhood watch guy like Zimmerman.

Zimmerman had called 911 41 times in two months. He was obsessed with his hobby and probably thought of himself as some sort of superhero protecting his neighborhood.

But I have to agree with we v us. I am just a know-it-all rage head on this. I don't really know what kind of guy Zimmerman really is. I just know a lot of people he reminds me of and that scares me.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 03, 2012, 01:19:28 pm
(Zimmerman is mixed race, fwiw)

Not according to Nathan, since Hispanic is not a race.

Who gets to decide what race a bi-racial person is?  President Obama is always called our first black president, yet he’s half-white.  What makes him more black than white?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 03, 2012, 01:22:26 pm
I'm sure this web site won't help the argument. But I was surprised that it even exists.

http://www.savewhitepeople.com/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 03, 2012, 01:49:24 pm
As with everything in the liberal world, I am learning that it is necessary to shift and redefine things to fit popular purpose and political objectives.

Why don't you ask a "hispanic" person what they think of the term rather than making it some stupid liberal v. conservative BS?

Quote
If Zimmerman's mother was Asian, he would be White-Asian, and Asian would no longer be considered a race.

Yeah, now you're just making smile up.

Conan, in the US, Obama is black because he's dark skinned and has "black blood" and that's how we've always done it. On the islands, at least, he'd be considered white since he's got a white parent and has brown (as opposed to black) skin. Not that it really matters what Zimmerman is. You don't think minorities can be scared of each other?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on April 03, 2012, 01:55:05 pm
Zimmerman had called 911 41 times in two months. He was obsessed with his hobby and probably thought of himself as some sort of superhero protecting his neighborhood.

But I have to agree with we v us. I am just a know-it-all rage head on this. I don't really know what kind of guy Zimmerman really is. I just know a lot of people he reminds me of and that scares me.

No one ever mentions this, so i apologize if it has been covered already. Michael paints Zimmerman as an overzealous superhero nut (you're not the only one). Understandable considering the evidence. However, the neighborhood watch program was started about six months before this shooting, after a sting of burgleries by predominantly black perpetrators. And according to several reports I read Zimmerman did call the cops 40 some odd times (since 2004, averaging once a month in the twelve most recent months. They vary depending on what you read so I don't know what to believe). Looking at it from that perspective it seems that Zimmerman was just a frustrated neighbor that didn't want his neighborhood to go to pot. They do the same thing in Detroit (albeit, no one has been shot to my knowledge).

I am in by no means pardoning Zimmerman for his actions. He did acted stupidly (to quote our great leader), and his actions are most likely the ones that lead to this young man's death. He acted out of passion, not reason. I understand his frustration, but don't pardon his actions. That said, I don't know if he broke the law either.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 03, 2012, 01:59:17 pm
Why don't you ask a "hispanic" person what they think of the term rather than making it some stupid liberal v. conservative BS?

Yeah, now you're just making smile up.

Conan, in the US, Obama is black because he's dark skinned and has "black blood" and that's how we've always done it. On the islands, at least, he'd be considered white since he's got a white parent and has brown (as opposed to black) skin. Not that it really matters what Zimmerman is. You don't think minorities can be scared of each other?

To the usual racist tools, they wanted it to appear to be a case of someone of the majority shooting a minority so it would become another case of white on black violence, ergo a hate crime.  Thus far no one has managed to provide a pattern of racist behavior for the half-Jew half-Hispanic.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on April 03, 2012, 02:00:27 pm
No one ever mentions this, so i apologize if it has been covered already. Michael paints Zimmerman as an overzealous superhero nut (you're not the only one). Understandable considering the evidence. However, the neighborhood watch program was started about six months before this shooting, after a sting of burgleries by predominantly black perpetrators. And according to several reports I read Zimmerman did call the cops 40 some odd times (since 2004, averaging once a month in the twelve most recent months. They vary depending on what you read so I don't know what to believe). Looking at it from that perspective it seems that Zimmerman was just a frustrated neighbor that didn't want his neighborhood to go to pot. They do the same thing in Detroit (albeit, no one has been shot to my knowledge).

I am in by no means pardoning Zimmerman for his actions. He did acted stupidly (to quote our great leader), and his actions are most likely the ones that lead to this young man's death. He acted out of passion, not reason. I understand his frustration, but don't pardon his actions. That said, I don't know if he broke the law either.

The neighbors claim that there have been 15 burglaries recently and all were done by young black men.

How exactly do they know that? Or do they assume that?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on April 03, 2012, 02:06:13 pm
To the usual racist tools, they wanted it to appear to be a case of someone of the majority shooting a minority so it would become another case of white on black violence, ergo a hate crime.  Thus far no one has managed to provide a pattern of racist behavior for the half-Jew half-Hispanic.

Half-jew half-Hispanic on black violence can also be a hate crime. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 03, 2012, 02:08:18 pm
The neighbors claim that there have been 15 burglaries recently and all were done by young black men.

How exactly do they know that? Or do they assume that?

They're probably all racists.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on April 03, 2012, 02:21:55 pm
The neighbors claim that there have been 15 burglaries recently and all were done by young black men.

How exactly do they know that? Or do they assume that?

Ummmm. Eyes?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 03, 2012, 02:35:11 pm
Not according to Nathan, since Hispanic is not a race.

Who gets to decide what race a bi-racial person is?  President Obama is always called our first black president, yet he’s half-white.  What makes him more black than white?

You take the cake.

Do you have a clue as to how the race is determined?

Seriously, you need to go to Camp Anytown.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 03, 2012, 02:39:40 pm
You take the cake.

Do you have a clue as to how the race is determined?

Seriously, you need to go to Camp Anytown.

You miss the point.

I never had you pegged for a literalist.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 03, 2012, 02:42:12 pm
OK, I must be missing the sarcasm and satire....

But I think you don't see the point.

Don't take offense. I like using you as an example.... ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 03, 2012, 02:44:50 pm
OK, I must be missing the sarcasm and satire....

But I think you don't see the point.

Don't take offense. I like using you as an example.... ;D

I’ve always been a great example or poor example.  Just glad I’m not anonymous.  ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 03, 2012, 03:04:52 pm
Have we discussed the new enhanced photos of Zimmers bloody head ?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 03, 2012, 04:16:27 pm
The neighbors claim that there have been 15 burglaries recently and all were done by young black men.

As I understand it, most of them are unsolved.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 03, 2012, 04:28:14 pm
Have we discussed the new enhanced photos of Zimmers bloody head ?

More interesting is how the enhanced video still fails to show any apparent blood spatter from when Zimmerman shot the person who was sitting on top of him inflicting the grievous injuries you see on the video.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 03, 2012, 04:51:23 pm
More interesting is how the enhanced video still fails to show any apparent blood spatter from when Zimmerman shot the person who was sitting on top of him inflicting the grievous injuries you see on the video.

Has there been any information of what caliber weapon was used ? a 22 as compared to a 357 would make a difference in the amount of blood shed from the victim.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 03, 2012, 05:11:47 pm
The neighbors claim that there have been 15 burglaries recently and all were done by young black men.

How exactly do they know that? Or do they assume that?

Zimmerman told them so.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 03, 2012, 05:36:32 pm
Has there been any information of what caliber weapon was used ? a 22 as compared to a 357 would make a difference in the amount of blood shed from the victim.

The police report (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf) identifies the weapon as a "black Kel-Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun".


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on April 03, 2012, 05:39:44 pm
And according to several reports I read Zimmerman did call the cops 40 some odd times (since 2004, averaging once a month in the twelve most recent months.

You said 40 times in eight years and I said 41 times in eight weeks. According to the Orlando Sentinel, we were both wrong.

Records show Zimmerman, 28, called the cops 46 times between January 2011 and Feb. 26.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-911-20120319_1_neighborhood-county-sheriff-s-office-crime-watch


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 06:15:01 pm
The police report (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf) identifies the weapon as a "black Kel-Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun".

Does it matter that the gun was black?

Interesting wording from the Orlando Sentinel considering the NBC release:

Quote
On Feb. 26, Zimmerman called the non-emergency line to report a suspicious person — Trayvon Martin.

Zimmerman mentioned the break-ins, reported a young black male in his neighborhood who he didn't recognize and thought was acting suspiciously.


I didn't see a link to the police report.   Nevermind.... you trickily put it in the words police report.  Hidden in plain sight.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on April 03, 2012, 06:54:00 pm
You said 40 times in eight years and I said 41 times in eight weeks. According to the Orlando Sentinel, we were both wrong.

Records show Zimmerman, 28, called the cops 46 times between January 2011 and Feb. 26.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-911-20120319_1_neighborhood-county-sheriff-s-office-crime-watch

Perfect illustration on how nobody can really figure out what happened. I wasn't trying to mislead you Michael, it is just difficult to pinpoint "the facts".


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 03, 2012, 07:27:07 pm
You said 40 times in eight years and I said 41 times in eight weeks. According to the Orlando Sentinel, we were both wrong.

Records show Zimmerman, 28, called the cops 46 times between January 2011 and Feb. 26.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-911-20120319_1_neighborhood-county-sheriff-s-office-crime-watch

That's an average of nearly once a week..


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 07:35:33 pm
That's an average of nearly once a week..

Must be a targeted neighborhood.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 03, 2012, 07:40:02 pm
Must be a targeted neighborhood.

Or a wannabe vigilante.  Or both.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on April 03, 2012, 08:19:41 pm
Or a wannabe vigilante.  Or both.

More likely paranoid  than vigilante.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 03, 2012, 08:34:19 pm
More likely paranoid  than vigilante.

But really, doesn't vigilantism spurn itself from paranoia?  Or at the very most being victimized?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 08:40:58 pm
But really, doesn't vigilantism spurn itself from paranoia?  Or at the very most being victimized?

No victims usually results in low levels of vigilantism.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 03, 2012, 09:57:25 pm
If you haven't listened to all of Zimmerman's call to the police, you really should. I'm embarrassed to say that the audio I had previously listened to was also edited. Now I know.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 03, 2012, 10:03:34 pm
This story, just as predicted by this clown, might be the match that starts everything burning.... imagine the picture of injustice for so many poor people who can't afford to have their own judge come in and intimidate loser cops. Amazing and then again not so much in todaze Amerika.

I'm beginning to see most Judges as filthy politicians...this magistrate is real dishonest for lying as he failed to disclose he was a Judge. Now that's a dirtbag.

Quote
EXCLUSIVE: Trayvon Martin Family Attorney Raises Questions About The Role Of George Zimmerman’s Father
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/04/03/457593/trayvonmartin-family-attorney-questions-robert-zimmerman/
In an interview with ThinkProgress, Martin family attorney Natalie Jackson raised serious questions about the role of George Zimmerman’s father, Robert Zimmerman, in the case.
Specifically, Jackson pointed to Robert Zimmerman’s presence during police questioning of his son. The New York Times reported the following:
The day after the shooting, George Zimmerman, according to his father, returned with at least three police officers to the Retreat at Twin Lakes, back to that grassy area where plaintive cries for help had gone unanswered. The investigators, accompanied by someone with a video camera, wanted him to re-enact the events of the night when the two strangers had stood their ground.
Mr. Zimmerman’s father watched from nearby.
Jackson noted that Robert Zimmerman was a retired magistrate judge who “issued warrants” and knows “what probable cause needs to be” to justify an arrest. His presence at the questioning, according to Jackson, was unusual and potentially inappropriate because “we don’t know what coaching went on.”
In an interview with Fox 35 Orlando, Robert Zimmerman, speaking of his son’s conduct, said “If a law enforcement officer presented those facts to me and requested a warrant, he would absolutely be denied.” Robert Zimmerman’s unusual role could help explain how George Zimmerman avoided arrest despite the recommendation of the lead homicide investigator that he be charged with manslaughter.
Seperately, Ben Crump, Jackson’s co-council, sent a letter to the U.S. Deputy Attorney General urging him to investigate a number of irregularities in the conduct of local authorities. Crump wrote that he believed “family members of shooter George Zimmerman were present at the police department” the night Trayvon Martin was killed.
Robert Zimmerman appeared to acknowledge he had spoken to the police and the state’s attorney in the case. In his Fox 35 interview, he said, “No one knew I was a retired magistrate judge. I didn’t mention it to the police. I didn’t mention it to the state attorney’s office.” He did not elaborate on the substance of his conversations with the police or prosecutors.
Jackson noted that Robert Zimmerman has made several claims about his son’s conduct that have turned out to be “not credible.” For example, in a letter to the Orlando Sentinel, he flatly stated that at “no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin.” Subsequently, the 911 tapes were released and revealed that George Zimmerman acknowledged chasing Trayvon Martin.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 03, 2012, 10:13:58 pm
This story, just as predicted by this clown, might be the match that starts everything burning.... imagine the picture of injustice for so many poor people who can't afford to have their own judge come in and intimidate loser cops. Amazing and then again not so much in todaze Amerika.

I'm beginning to see most Judges as filthy politicians...this magistrate is real dishonest for lying as he failed to disclose he was a Judge. Now that's a dirtbag.


Well geez, I guess if Natalie Jackson, yes THE Natalie Jackson, has a problem with Zimmerman's dad then there goes the justice system...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 10:19:30 pm
yes THE Natalie Jackson,

??  I guess I just hang out with the wrong crowds.  Besides the latest, what is she famous about?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 03, 2012, 10:21:44 pm
Well geez, I guess if Natalie Jackson, yes THE Natalie Jackson, has a problem with Zimmerman's dad then there goes the justice system...

THE Natalie Jackson was Neal Cassidy's girlfriend.

But you are referring to A Natalie Jackson http://www.wtgfirm.com/natalie_jackson.asp who has been hired as one of the counsel to Martin's family and who will be a major player in this unfolding drama that will make the OJ trial look like peanuts.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 10:23:12 pm
This story, just as predicted by this clown, might be the match that starts everything burning.... imagine the picture of injustice for so many poor people who can't afford to have their own judge come in and intimidate loser cops. Amazing and then again not so much in todaze Amerika.

If the elder Zimmerman had announced his retired magistrate status, he would have been accused of trying to influence the proceedings.
Can't win.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 03, 2012, 10:29:18 pm
THE Natalie Jackson was Neal Cassidy's girlfriend.

But you are referring to A Natalie Jackson http://www.wtgfirm.com/natalie_jackson.asp who has been hired as one of the counsel to Martin's family and who will be a major player in this unfolding drama that will make the OJ trial look like peanuts.

Without Google, I'd be drawing a total blank on all 3 of these names.

Quote
this unfolding drama that will make the OJ trial look like peanuts.

Because the races are reversed?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 03, 2012, 10:30:59 pm
If the elder Zimmerman had announced his retired magistrate status, he would have been accused of trying to influence the proceedings.
Can't win.

What do you mean "would have been?"

He's already influenced history by not staying out of this.




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 03, 2012, 10:32:23 pm
??  I guess I just hang out with the wrong crowds.  Besides the latest, what is she famous about?

Not a damned thing. That's the point. She's a nobody mouthpiece for the Martin family that apparently has mega-suck with the justice system in aox's world.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 03, 2012, 10:38:46 pm
Without Google, I'd be drawing a total blank on all 3 of these names.

Because the races are reversed?

No. RACE HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THIS! It's about injustice, favor-ability, pathetic laws, and crappy law enforcement.

I don't even believe the hate crime aspect of this needs further examination. The Grand Jury should let that issue go away. Just go for the
Sanford P.D.'s juggler vein.

You must realize by now this type of bias has supported the Prison Industrial Complex for years and continues to be an enormous burden on us taxpayers.  ??? :'( Ever wonder why there is a disproportionate number of African Americans in prison?



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 04, 2012, 05:49:37 am
No. RACE HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THIS!

That would certainly explain why there has been NO EMPHASIS AT ALL on the pesky details that the kid was black and the shooter is white.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 04, 2012, 05:50:15 am
That would certainly explain why there has been NO EMPHASIS AT ALL on the pesky details that the kid was black and the shooter is white.

Maybe there wouldn't have been as much had the Sanford PD not had a history with it.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 04, 2012, 06:49:15 am
Maybe there wouldn't have been as much had the Sanford PD not had a history with it.

That is a possibility but to say "race has little to do with this" is still inaccurate.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 04, 2012, 07:50:18 am
Maybe there wouldn't have been as much had the Sanford PD not had a history with it.

Wait, Wait...How all of the sudden do we know the "History" of the Sanford and Son Police department ? I dont live there, I have never lived there, My family or friends have never lived there. So what are we to base that on ? spoon fed media info or a wikipedia search ?

My opinion is that all Police Departments are corrupt to a extent. It's human nature. Very hard to have that much power over lowly law breakers and control it.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 04, 2012, 07:54:18 am
Wait, Wait...How all of the sudden do we know the "History" of the Sanford and Son Police department ? I dont live there, I have never lived there, My family or friends have never lived there. So what are we to base that on ? spoon fed media info or a wikipedia search ?

My opinion is that all Police Departments are corrupt to a extent. It's human nature. Very hard to have that much power over lowly law breakers and control it.

Wikipedia in this instance.  And sources are cited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford_Police_Department_(Florida)#Misconduct

So while bemoaning the 'oh, it's Wikipedia so you KNOW it's right', consider the fact that all those referenced in that section are cited with the 'spoon fed' media reports.

 ::)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 04, 2012, 07:54:33 am
Wait, Wait...How all of the sudden do we know the "History" of the Sanford and Son Police department ? I dont live there, I have never lived there, My family or friends have never lived there. So what are we to base that on ? spoon fed media info or a wikipedia search ?

My opinion is that all Police Departments are corrupt to a extent. It's human nature. Very hard to have that much power over lowly law breakers and control it.

All police are racist. Get with the program!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 04, 2012, 07:56:50 am
All police are racist. Get with the program!

Did I ever claim racism?  I'm claiming misconduct, as I stated in citing the Wikipedia page with their citations noted.

Yep, putting words in people's mouths.  You've been doing it a while now.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 04, 2012, 08:08:52 am
Zimmerman’s father is a retired magistrate, yes?

What sort of schooling do you have to have prior to becoming a judge?  Perhaps the Sr. Zimmerman was acting on his son’s behalf as his attorney.  He did have a right to have an attorney present at all times after he was taken into custody.

The second officer’s account in the police report says he observed Zimmerman had a wet back, bloody nose, and abrasions on his head.  He was tended to by the SFD paramedics as he sat in the police car.  Sounds like they cleaned him up at the scene.

Just saying those are obvious things still being overlooked.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 04, 2012, 08:22:16 am
Did I ever claim racism?  I'm claiming misconduct, as I stated in citing the Wikipedia page with their citations noted.

Yep, putting words in people's mouths.  You've been doing it a while now.

Sorry.  I was jumping to conclusions before others arrived there.  We will get there soon enough.  ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 04, 2012, 08:47:09 am
Wikipedia in this instance.  And sources are cited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford_Police_Department_(Florida)#Misconduct

So while bemoaning the 'oh, it's Wikipedia so you KNOW it's right', consider the fact that all those referenced in that section are cited with the 'spoon fed' media reports.

 ::)

Ok out of the four instances cited. Only one was race related. Hardly a History for the city.
But we really could talk about a City with History of race relation problems. And we are still trying to appease and make amends 91 years later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_Race_Riots


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 04, 2012, 09:02:31 am
Ok out of the four instances cited. Only one was race related. Hardly a History for the city.
But we really could talk about a City with History of race relation problems. And we are still trying to appease and make amends 91 years later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_Race_Riots


And like I said, I wasn't the one citing race.  I'm citing a pattern of misconduct for a police department.  As everyone keeps pointing out here, it's not necessarily about race, although in time we'll come to know one way or the other.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 04, 2012, 09:23:30 am
And like I said, I wasn't the one citing race.  I'm citing a pattern of misconduct for a police department.  As everyone keeps pointing out here, it's not necessarily about race, although in time we'll come to know one way or the other.

Hoss,

1. This will be about race, because that's the card that carries no penalty to play.
2. If Zimmerman does not receive a conviction there will be protest, even if it is proven that he acted in self defense.
3. If Zimmerman is convicted of manslaughter, there will be protest because he was not convicted of murder.
4. Any individual, group, or organization that aids in Zimmerman's defense or testifies on his behalf will be branded as racist. This includes law enforcement, EMTs, or witnesses.


This case has been tried by the public and Zimmerman is white, and is guilty.  Nothing can change that.  The mob has spoken.  Zimmerman has been branded a witch and will be burnt. 

I am hopeful that justice will be served, and if guilty, Zimmerman will face the full force of the law, and serve as an example to others that feel compelled to take the law into their own hands beyond what is legal. . .but I am only hopeful.  The damage created by the sensationalization, race-baiting and political marketing is deep.  For some like Jessy Jackson and Al Sharpton, this will fuel their enterprises for years to come.  For others who have adopted this tragedy as a political platform to push their agendas, Trayvon will be immortalized as a symbol for their campaigns. 

This was a tragic incident with lots of moving parts.  It was disrespected and distilled into whatever people wanted it to be.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 04, 2012, 09:57:04 am

This was a tragic incident with lots of moving parts.  It was disrespected and distilled into whatever people wanted it to be.


The most honest assessment I’ve read anywhere.  Thanks for the lucid moment, I think everyone needs to let that sink in.

It’s particularly disturbing to see how the media obviously edited various accounts and evidentiary items to manipulate evidence in the court of public opinion. 

Anyone remember all the comments after Casey Anthony walked?  Nancy Grace and her ilk spent two years trying and convicting Anthony on the news every night.  The result was millions of people second-guessed a jury who was specifically charged with hearing the case and making a determination on Ms. Anthony’s fate.  The jury had to abide by the court rules and go on what they were allowed to hear. 

I’ve just about given up on getting any sort of honest account out of any news outlet any more.  It’s not treated as news and facts, it’s strictly entertainment.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on April 04, 2012, 10:46:33 am

Nancy Grace and her ilk spent two years trying and convicting Anthony on the news every night.

It aint Ted Turner's CNN anymore, but rather some talk-show machine that mistakes Grace for a journalist.




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 04, 2012, 10:51:51 am
It aint Ted Turner's CNN anymore, but rather some talk-show machine that mistakes Grace for a journalist.




Funny I was just thinking last night as I was trying to get a handle on what had happened in Dallas and all I could find on “HLN” was more headless corpse stories: “Why do they even call it ‘Headline News’ anymore? They don’t have any headlines!"


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: dbacks fan on April 04, 2012, 10:57:21 am
Funny I was just thinking last night as I was trying to get a handle on what had happened in Dallas and all I could find on “HLN” was more headless corpse stories: “Why do they even call it ‘Headline News’ anymore? They don’t have any headlines!"

HLN has become the CoutTV/Entertrashment channel.  My dad and I have made the comment several times about whether or not most of the people on CNN/Faux/MSNBC are really journalists at all since most of them just read a script and a teleprompter.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nPRgUKj7Vo&feature=related[/youtube]


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 04, 2012, 11:38:39 am
Did I ever claim racism?  I'm claiming misconduct, as I stated in citing the Wikipedia page with their citations noted.

Yep, putting words in people's mouths.  You've been doing it a while now.

I find the racism assumption with your response to be reasonable since you replied to:

Quote
That would certainly explain why there has been NO EMPHASIS AT ALL on the pesky details that the kid was black and the shooter is white.

With:
Quote
Maybe there wouldn't have been as much had the Sanford PD not had a history with it.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 04, 2012, 12:42:41 pm
The second officer’s account in the police report says he observed Zimmerman had a wet back, bloody nose, and abrasions on his head.  He was tended to by the SFD paramedics as he sat in the police car.  Sounds like they cleaned him up at the scene.

Turned out, they canceled the ambulance for Zimmerman, although it may be that they did that because they realized there wasn't anything to be done for Martin, so the folks responding for him could also treat Zimmerman.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 06, 2012, 07:27:27 am
So now it sounds like Zimmerman may not have said the "Racial Slur" on the 911 recording.
CNN (no really) had the recording enhanced and instead of 'f***ing c**ns' it now sounds like 'f***ing cold'


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 06, 2012, 04:14:50 pm
I know I would have said the same thing if I were walking around outside when the temperature was in the low to mid 60s.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 06, 2012, 04:50:42 pm
I know I would have said the same thing if I were walking around outside when the temperature was in the low to mid 60s.

I know what your saying. I visited friends in Lauderdale in December years ago. And it was 44 degrees outside. I never seen people put on so many clothes like they did. I wore a t-shirt and shorts and they thought I was crazy.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 06, 2012, 06:40:32 pm
Long Live Zimmerman...

Quote
COLUMBUS, Ohio (CBS Cleveland/AP) — Officials say graffiti spray painted on the wall of a black cultural center at Ohio State University likely stems from the nationwide unrest over the fatal shooting of a black Florida teenager.

The graffiti painted early Thursday said “Long Live Zimmerman.” Columbus media outlets report that officials believe it’s a reference to George Zimmerman, the neighborhood-watch captain accused of killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla., in February.


http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2012/04/06/long-live-zimmerman-spray-painted-on-ohio-states-black-cultural-center/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 06, 2012, 11:18:28 pm
Wow.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 07, 2012, 02:40:10 pm
Wow.

Figures you would be the one with his panties wadded up over someone exercising those ugly free speech rights.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 07, 2012, 03:16:13 pm
Figures you would be the one with his panties wadded up over someone exercising those ugly free speech rights.

So now the term 'wow = 'panties in a wad'.  Wonder what you'd have to do to be full-on rage, at least in your eyes.

wow..wait,what?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 07, 2012, 03:24:34 pm
So now the term 'wow = 'panties in a wad'.  Wonder what you'd have to do to be full-on rage, at least in your eyes.

wow..wait,what?

Full on rage would be getting one's "Hoss in a wad".  Wait a minute, I kinda like that one.  "Hoss's"?

(https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSjZpSSYLut4x49R53ZIwm3KLlZi4_OxHjxAzNepkwds2tq6UkN)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 07, 2012, 03:49:14 pm
Full on rage would be getting one's "Hoss in a wad".  Wait a minute, I kinda like that one.  "Hoss's"?

(https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSjZpSSYLut4x49R53ZIwm3KLlZi4_OxHjxAzNepkwds2tq6UkN)

Stick to your day job...err...yeah, stick to your day job.  There are plenty of jokes to come out of that.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 07, 2012, 04:19:07 pm
Figures you would be the one with his panties wadded up over someone exercising those ugly free speech rights.

Last I checked, the First Amendment doesn't protect the defacement of other people's property.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 07, 2012, 04:33:03 pm
Last I checked, the First Amendment doesn't protect the defacement of other people's property.

Funny how an 'attorney' wouldn't see that.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 07, 2012, 04:44:13 pm
Stick to your day job...err...yeah, stick to your day job.


ooooo. ya got me...

(http://www.richard-e-grant.com/Articles/TheAgeGreenGuide-May1999a.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 07, 2012, 04:47:49 pm
Last I checked, the First Amendment doesn't protect the defacement of other people's property.

Where oh where were you guys when it was so vogue when the pee partiers and unions were out trashing our neighborhoods, public parks, buildings, cities....Oh I remember, that was "democracy". Funny how an ideologue can't see that...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 07, 2012, 05:13:25 pm
Where oh where were you guys when it was so vogue when the pee partiers and unions were out trashing our neighborhoods, public parks, buildings, cities....Oh I remember, that was "democracy". Funny how an ideologue can't see that...

I don't believe I ever condoned defacement of property by OWS folks or anyone else. Nice try, though!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 08, 2012, 08:46:51 pm
Long Live Zimmerman...


http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2012/04/06/long-live-zimmerman-spray-painted-on-ohio-states-black-cultural-center/

I’ve got a different spin er take.  The graffiti artists are Bob Dylan fans.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 09, 2012, 02:21:47 pm
Developing. . .
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/09/grand-jury-will-not-hear-trayvon-martin-case/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 09, 2012, 02:36:06 pm
Developing. . .
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/09/grand-jury-will-not-hear-trayvon-martin-case/

Doesn't mean charges won't be filed.  And in many cases like this I've been told, the Grand Jury is bypassed.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 09, 2012, 02:39:34 pm
And then there is this. You want National attention ? Then expect National reaction.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/09/11102214-racial-slur-on-mich-road-sign-targets-trayvon-martin?lite


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 09, 2012, 02:50:38 pm
Doesn't mean charges won't be filed.  And in many cases like this I've been told, the Grand Jury is bypassed.

Correct, but it does mean that the offense will most likely be manslaughter or lesser.

I am very interested in what the evidence is that would lead the state attorney to discount a grand jury?



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 10, 2012, 09:30:14 am
So Reverend Al will be in Tulsa as early as today. Cant wait to see that Photo op with Jack Henderson. Big smiles and hugs all around. I havent seen him yet but I'm sure Roscoe Turner cant be to far away.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 10, 2012, 10:11:33 am
So Reverend Al will be in Tulsa as early as today. Cant wait to see that Photo op with Jack Henderson. Big smiles and hugs all around. I havent seen him yet but I'm sure Roscoe Turner cant be to far away.

Fortunately Roscoe is not as hard-wired as Henderson on race issues.

Unfortunately, I think Roscoe is hiding his own Easter eggs these days.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 10, 2012, 10:31:45 am
And then there is this. You want National attention ? Then expect National reaction.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/09/11102214-racial-slur-on-mich-road-sign-targets-trayvon-martin?lite

Wonder what the U of Mich prof that went on NPR to get after Tulsa (another thread) thinks about his own backyard...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 10, 2012, 12:13:01 pm
" If I had a son, he'd look like Christopher Newsom."
This story is now making the e-mail rounds and is absolutly appalling. I have never heard of it. Wonder why ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 10, 2012, 12:27:32 pm
" If I had a son, he'd look like Christopher Newsom."
This story is now making the e-mail rounds and is absolutly appalling. I have never heard of it. Wonder why ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

I have a son.  Doesn't matter what he looks like.  A horrific crime like this has no color.  

To color the crime to serve some outside agenda is evil, and only promotes more evil.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 10, 2012, 12:40:08 pm
I have a son.  Doesn't matter what he looks like.  A horrific crime like this has no color.  

To color the crime to serve some outside agenda is evil, and only promotes more evil.



I have two sons and that was my attempt at sarcasm and to bring attention to this case like our President did.
My pull with the press just isn't as large as his.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on April 10, 2012, 09:36:10 pm
" If I had a son, he'd look like Christopher Newsom."
This story is now making the e-mail rounds and is absolutly appalling. I have never heard of it. Wonder why ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

What is this supposed to add to the current discussion?  How does this have anything to do with the Zimmerman/Martin shooting? 



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 10, 2012, 09:49:22 pm
What is this supposed to add to the current discussion?  How does this have anything to do with the Zimmerman/Martin shooting? 



Not a damned thing, I mean, other than: 1) the stupid double standard when it comes to crime and its black on white and, 2) the fact that the then-sitting president didn't stick his damned nose into the mess talking about how those white victims looked like him. Were those victims typical white people? That might also explain why the story didn't hit the media very hard.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 10, 2012, 09:50:08 pm
I have a son.  Doesn't matter what he looks like.  A horrific crime like this has no color.  

To color the crime to serve some outside agenda is evil, and only promotes more evil.



That's one of the arguments against hate crime legislation as a general matter. And I agree. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 10, 2012, 09:52:50 pm
I read that Zimmerman's lawyers have bailed out due to lack of contact with their client. Also, I read Zimmerman had talks with Sean Hannity, who did not share the substance with those lawyers. This mess is now way beyond a freakin circus. I blame Bush.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201204100012


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: we vs us on April 10, 2012, 10:01:45 pm
Not a damned thing, I mean, other than: 1) the stupid double standard when it comes to crime and its black on white and, 2) the fact that the then-sitting president didn't stick his damned nose into the mess talking about how those white victims looked like him. Were those victims typical white people? That might also explain why the story didn't hit the media very hard.

1) double standard how?  

There's virtually nothing similar between the two cases.  How the 2007 atrocity is supposed to illuminate the Zimmerman/Martin shooting is beyond me. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 11, 2012, 07:21:54 am
I guess I am missing the "Typical" part of your point. So Treyvon was more "Typical" black than Christopher was white. That has got to be the most........never mind. I'm not going to insult another poster for their view on this topic.

But you and I know. The press picks and chooses what topic or incident that they want to be racial. I still have to go back to the two ORU students killed from behind while jogging. Oh but wait a minute. They werent the "Typical" white either.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 11, 2012, 07:41:26 am
1) double standard how?  

There's virtually nothing similar between the two cases.  How the 2007 atrocity is supposed to illuminate the Zimmerman/Martin shooting is beyond me.  


Okay, I’ll take a swing at it.

After hearing the un-edited 911 tapes, it doesn’t appear the Martin case was a hate crime, nor even racially motivated.  Yet the media, the usual racist attention whores, and the president have all weighed in on this and tried to turn it into a hate crime or at least racially-motivated.

Reading what was done to the two white victims in 2007 was not the result of sick perversion, it’s a very very clear indication of a deep-seated hatred.  Where are the hate crime charges?  Where’s the outcry about bias or prosecutorial incompetence in over-turning the original convictions due to a judge with a substance abuse problem?  

The setting and manner of the two incidents are quite different, yes.  However, I don’t see the 2007 case as ever being treated as a hate crime when there is no doubt it was pure evil and hatred behind what those victims endured.  I don’t recall Jack$on or $harpton taking the time to address this hate crime and call for a march to action against interracial violence.  I don’t recall the New Black Panthers ever issuing a bounty on these low lifes.  

I see it as a double-standard as I’m quite certain had this been a gang of white men who did this to a young black couple, it would have been treated far different by the media and those who believe that racism and racist acts only exist in the minds of white people.  You can be sure we would have heard of the case had the circumstances been different.  The case would have been sensationalized as the perfect example of a hate crime.

There’s your double-standard.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on April 11, 2012, 07:49:23 am
Okay, I’ll take a swing at it.

After hearing the un-edited 911 tapes, it doesn’t appear the Martin case was a hate crime, nor even racially motivated.  Yet the media, the usual racist attention whores, and the president have all weighed in on this and tried to turn it into a hate crime or at least racially-motivated.

Reading what was done to the two white victims in 2007 was not the result of sick perversion, it’s a very very clear indication of a deep-seated hatred.  Where are the hate crime charges?  Where’s the outcry about bias or prosecutorial incompetence in over-turning the original convictions due to a judge with a substance abuse problem?  

The setting and manner of the two incidents are quite different, yes.  However, I don’t see the 2007 case as ever being treated as a hate crime when there is no doubt it was pure evil and hatred behind what those victims endured.  I don’t recall Jack$on or $harpton taking the time to address this hate crime and call for a march to action against interracial violence.  I don’t recall the New Black Panthers ever issuing a bounty on these low lifes.  

I see it as a double-standard as I’m quite certain had this been a gang of white men who did this to a young black couple, it would have been treated far different by the media and those who believe that racism and racist acts only exist in the minds of white people.  You can be sure we would have heard of the case had the circumstances been different.  The case would have been sensationalized as the perfect example of a hate crime.

There’s your double-standard.

While I agree, Zimmerman is sure not making things easy on himself.  Talking off the record to Hannity, his legal team quit yesterday in a pretty distasteful way (by indicating why they thought he did and that he may no longer be in Florida) and starting this website to help with his legal fees.

Sanford PD sure has not handled this well, but the media deserves a pantload of criticism for its handling of it.  Maybe they should have called Chuck Jordan and the TPD to find out how it should be handled.

Waiting for the obligatory blast from Patric soon....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 11, 2012, 08:02:40 am
I will give you one example at how the two cases are similar. The oldest brother "Stalked" the "Typical" white girl for a couple of Months. According to testimony at trial (Which I listened to yesterday) by his younger brother. Who in my opinion was lying to try and save his own skin.
Him, his brother and one other man smoked a wet blunt and went to her apartment complex and carjacked them and took them back to the older brothers home and for over twenty four hours tortured these two "Typical" white innocent people. And not a Hispanic/Black person among them. All five of them "African American"

Zimmerman didn't even "Stalk" Treyvon more than a few minutes. Not Months. So there is your comparison.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 11, 2012, 12:29:50 pm
Zimmerman will be charged!

More details this afternoon.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 11, 2012, 12:37:40 pm
Zimmerman will be charged!

More details this afternoon.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_print.html

Cool, now a jury can decide his fate and then the rest of the country can express their outrage at the outcome since the media already did such a thorough job vetting this case.  ::)

One way or the other, there’s a bloc of folks who won’t be happy.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 11, 2012, 12:54:14 pm
I guess I am missing the "Typical" part of your point. So Treyvon was more "Typical" black than Christopher was white. That has got to be the most........never mind. I'm not going to insult another poster for their view on this topic.

But you and I know. The press picks and chooses what topic or incident that they want to be racial. I still have to go back to the two ORU students killed from behind while jogging. Oh but wait a minute. They werent the "Typical" white either.
Making a small, and apparently gawd awful joke about Barry. Remember this?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rZKga-ZMMw[/youtube]


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 11, 2012, 01:06:43 pm
Hmm, it seems that today it turned into the minority's job to shout about all the injustice that happens to the majority that continues to hold them down. Very interesting, that.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 11, 2012, 01:19:52 pm
Hmm, it seems that today it turned into the minority's job to shout about all the injustice that happens to the majority that continues to hold them down. Very interesting, that.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Nice job. That's one of them "Zing" right over your head....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 11, 2012, 01:30:47 pm
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Nice job. That's one of them "Zing" right over your head....

Look, the two cases are completely different. The one you're trying to paint as somehow equivalent was actually investigated in a timely manner. In the Zimmerman case, it was all being swept under the rug before the media got involved. Have they done a great job at providing fact? Not really. However, they did do a good job of shining light where there previously was none.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 11, 2012, 01:31:58 pm
Jackson heard about Sharpton and is on his way.

The race is on!  



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 11, 2012, 01:32:46 pm
Look, the two cases are completely different. The one you're trying to paint as somehow equivalent was actually investigated in a timely manner. In the Zimmerman case, it was all being swept under the rug before the media got involved. Have they done a great job at providing fact? Not really. However, they did do a good job of shining light where there previously was none.

Do we know for certain the Martin investigation had been ruled “complete” prior to the hullabaloo and was not on-going?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 11, 2012, 01:40:20 pm
Do we know for certain the Martin investigation had been ruled “complete” prior to the hullabaloo and was not on-going?

That's what the police said initially. Supposedly, and this may be confirmed later by the DoJ investigation if they don't drop it after Zimmerman is charged, the prosecutor refused to file an information in the case. The hullabaloo didn't begin until a couple of weeks after the incident happened, as I recall. There was some local media coverage when it originally happened, as there usually is with (possible) murders.

Quite honestly, I don't know nor care whether Zimmerman is a racist or did what he did because of racism. My initial concern was related to the seeming lack of a thorough investigation and the witness "coaching" by SPD.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 11, 2012, 01:43:54 pm
That's what the police said initially. Supposedly, and this may be confirmed later by the DoJ investigation if they don't drop it after Zimmerman is charged, the prosecutor refused to file an information in the case. The hullabaloo didn't begin until a couple of weeks after the incident happened, as I recall. There was some local media coverage when it originally happened, as there usually is with (possible) murders.

Thanks, just hard to separate the myth from reality after the way the media has distorted so many facts in the case.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 11, 2012, 01:44:31 pm
Jackson heard about Sharpton and is on his way.

The race is on!  



What are those two pieces of Biden coming here for?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 11, 2012, 01:46:05 pm
Thanks, just hard to separate the myth from reality after the way the media has distorted so many facts in the case.

Google News has a nifty date range search that can sometimes be helpful to that end. Most news orgs are responsible enough to note when they've edited a story after the fact.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on April 11, 2012, 01:54:14 pm
While I agree, Zimmerman is sure not making things easy on himself.  Talking off the record to Hannity, his legal team quit yesterday in a pretty distasteful way (by indicating why they thought he did and that he may no longer be in Florida) and starting this website to help with his legal fees.

Sanford PD sure has not handled this well, but the media deserves a pantload of criticism for its handling of it.  Maybe they should have called Chuck Jordan and the TPD to find out how it should be handled.

Waiting for the obligatory blast from Patric soon....

Blast.

My initial concern was related to the seeming lack of a thorough investigation and the witness "coaching" by SPD.

I think Jordan made it a point to not end up echoing the gross missteps of the Sanford PD, and that was good for us.
But... people are going to expect the same exuberance for less high-profile crimes, now that they see how fast the wheels can turn.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 11, 2012, 02:03:28 pm
I think Jordan made it a point to not end up echoing the gross missteps of the Sanford PD, and that was good for us.
But... people are going to expect the same exuberance for less high-profile crimes, now that they see how fast the wheels can turn.

Look, there’s a huge difference between the Sanford incident and the Tulsa massacre and how the laws apply to each.  There was apparently sufficient evidence at the time that Zimmerman had been assaulted by Martin according to police accounts at the scene.  There was enough room for doubt as to Zimmerman’s culpability in the crime he’s accused of committing.

In the Tulsa case, these two pieces of smile drove around north Tulsa shooting people at random.  There was absolutely zero doubt about this not being a case of self-defense.  It’s obviously not near as clear-cut in the Sanford case.  That’s why the wheels turned so quickly.  Secondly, when you have a mass or serial killer on the loose, you have to move fast to contain them, therefore, they will get as many hands on the case as they can soon as possible.

It’s got far less to do with public appearances and acting quick because another case 1500 miles away turned into a clusterfark.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 11, 2012, 02:13:49 pm
It’s got far less to do with public appearances and acting quick because another case 1500 miles away turned into a clusterfark.

I don't know that it made them do anything differently, but I would be very surprised if the unfavorable attention Sanford has been getting wasn't somewhere in TPD's thought process.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 12, 2012, 05:08:22 am
NY times article on McLain neighborhood in todays paper. If you ignore it the problem of poverty will still exist.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 12, 2012, 01:23:40 pm
NY times article on McLain neighborhood in todays paper. If you ignore it the problem of poverty will still exist.

I saw that this morning. It was a little weird seeing Tulsa in the NYT in a not-directly-news story.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 12, 2012, 01:30:20 pm
Back to the topic at hand, Zimmerman is in custody and appeared in court today on 2nd degree murder charges.

I was very impressed with the prosecutor yesterday when she told the media that the evidence which led her to file charges was essentially none of their business and was for the judge and jury to hear.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on April 12, 2012, 11:07:42 pm
The main reason Zimmerman's self defense claim isn't holding water is because he actively pursued his victim.

It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out, because look who else just got cleared on a claim of self defense doing something similar:

Sheriff's deputies were justified in shooting a Tulsa man outside the Tulsa County Courthouse last month, the Wagoner County assistant district attorney who is charged with investigating the incident said Wednesday.

Andrew Joseph Dennehy, 23, was shot on the plaza north of the courthouse shortly after 2:30 p.m. March 7 after he allegedly fired several shots from a .357-caliber pistol into the air and pointed his weapon at deputies, authorities said.
"We are clearing the officers," prosecutor Jack Thorp said.

According to an affidavit filed by an investigator with the District Attorney's Office, Deputies David Fortenberry, Stephen Culley and Dennis Miller came out of the courthouse's north entrance and saw Dennehy sitting on a concrete bench holding a pistol.

"It appears that both deputies were able to fire toward the gunman while defending themselves and did so cautiously and professionally," Thorp said.

The Tulsa County District Attorney's Office recused itself because several of its employees saw the shootings.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20120412_16_A11_CUTLIN897537


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 13, 2012, 06:05:51 am
The main reason Zimmerman's self defense claim isn't holding water is because he actively pursued his victim.

It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out, because look who else just got cleared on a claim of self defense doing something similar:

Sheriff's deputies were justified in shooting a Tulsa man outside the Tulsa County Courthouse last month, the Wagoner County assistant district attorney who is charged with investigating the incident said Wednesday.

Andrew Joseph Dennehy, 23, was shot on the plaza north of the courthouse shortly after 2:30 p.m. March 7 after he allegedly fired several shots from a .357-caliber pistol into the air and pointed his weapon at deputies, authorities said.
"We are clearing the officers," prosecutor Jack Thorp said.

According to an affidavit filed by an investigator with the District Attorney's Office, Deputies David Fortenberry, Stephen Culley and Dennis Miller came out of the courthouse's north entrance and saw Dennehy sitting on a concrete bench holding a pistol.

"It appears that both deputies were able to fire toward the gunman while defending themselves and did so cautiously and professionally," Thorp said.

The Tulsa County District Attorney's Office recused itself because several of its employees saw the shootings.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20120412_16_A11_CUTLIN897537


Similar?  Really?

Zimmerman was an idiot who, we assume, followed someone he felt was suspect, and engaged that person (who was not committing any crime at the time) rather than allowing law enforcement to do their job. 

The Tulsa police were attempting to contain a man shooting at people in a public place with no idea of his intent beyond the fact that he was FREAKING SHOOTING AT PEOPLE.  Call me crazy, but something tells me this is exactly when an officer should apply deadly force.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 13, 2012, 07:59:12 am

The Tulsa police were attempting to contain a man shooting at people in a public place with no idea of his intent beyond the fact that he was FREAKING SHOOTING AT PEOPLE.  Call me crazy, but something tells me this is exactly when an officer should apply deadly force.



I second your motion!  And no, not crazy at all!





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on April 13, 2012, 09:54:26 am
Similar?  Really?

Zimmerman was an idiot who, we assume, followed someone he felt was suspect, and engaged that person (who was not committing any crime at the time) rather than allowing law enforcement to do their job. 

The Tulsa police were attempting to contain a man shooting at people in a public place with no idea of his intent beyond the fact that he was FREAKING SHOOTING AT PEOPLE.  Call me crazy, but something tells me this is exactly when an officer should apply deadly force.

The similarity I was pointing out were the claims of self-defense while actively engaging an individual  (anything beyond that is over-interpretation).
It seems to be acceptable in the TCSO (not TPD as gaspar claims) instance, so might it also in Zimmermans -- unless the dividing line is cop Vs. wanna-be cop?
In other words, is it more a factor of who you are than what you are doing when claiming self-defense?  --and what standard will Zimmerman ultimately be held to?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 13, 2012, 10:16:49 am
In other words, is it more a factor of who you are than what you are doing when claiming self-defense?

It seems like it would be a "defense of others" claim in the case of the deputies.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 13, 2012, 10:25:12 am
The similarity I was pointing out were the claims of self-defense while actively engaging an individual  (anything beyond that is over-interpretation).
It seems to be acceptable in the TCSO (not TPD as gaspar claims) instance, so might it also in Zimmermans -- unless the dividing line is cop Vs. wanna-be cop?
In other words, is it more a factor of who you are than what you are doing when claiming self-defense?  --and what standard will Zimmerman ultimately be held to?

Your logic astounds me at times.

The deputies were charged with protecting the public from an armed person firing shots.  He was an obvious danger to the public and the deputies.

It has nothing to do with cop v. wannabe.  In Zimmerman’s case Martin does not appear to have been armed when he was engaged.  Huge difference.  It appears Zimmerman provoked the encounter, Martin responded by assaulting him, Zimmerman then defended himself from an assault he apparently instigated in the first place. 

The deputies were responding to a very clear danger.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 13, 2012, 10:30:46 am
Martin responded by assaulting him

FWIW, there's no (public) evidence of that other than Zimmerman's obviously self serving account told to the media by his daddy. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it's somewhat inconsistent with eye/earwitness accounts. It'll be interesting to see what comes up at trial. (I hope it's not televised, but I still want transcripts!)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 13, 2012, 10:49:31 am
If Zimmerman squeaks his way out of this somehow because of all of the media attention. I hope to hell that the family sues the pants off of all of the parasites that have attached themselves to them!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 13, 2012, 10:55:45 am
I second your motion!  And no, not crazy at all!

Gaspar asks a tiny favor to have someone call him crazy and you can't even do that.
What kind of friend are you anyway?
 
 ;D

By the way, Gaspar, you are crazy.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 13, 2012, 10:56:43 am
Gaspar asks a tiny favor to have someone call him crazy and you can't even do that.
What kind of friend are you anyway?
 
 ;D

By the way, Gaspar, you are crazy.

Like a fox!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 13, 2012, 11:15:28 am
Like a fox!

A simple "thank you" would have been sufficient.
 
 :D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on April 13, 2012, 12:25:17 pm
Your logic astounds me at times.

The deputies were charged with protecting the public from an armed person firing shots.  He was an obvious danger to the public and the deputies.

I agree, but that wasn't the question.
The question is "is an armed advance on someone self defense?"
...and the answer appears to be "depends..."


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 13, 2012, 12:31:34 pm
I agree, but that wasn't the question.
The question is "is an armed advance on someone self defense?"
...and the answer appears to be "depends..."

“Depends" on whether or not someone is armed and firing a weapon at you or others in close proximity.

Had that been a civilian taking this guy down, I suspect it would have been considered justified.  Would it have been better justified to simply sit there and wait for this guy to empty his gun before asking him to "try these shiny new cuffs on for size"?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 16, 2012, 10:47:10 am
Somewhere in this or another thread. We were talking about how many races that there is. I couldnt quite remember which, but anyway.

Hate crimes are defined as being committed against another race. So if that is the case. Are Jewish people a race ? Painting a Swastika or Star of David on a certain business is considered a hate crime.

I only ask because Jon Lovitz came out against three girls and one of their Mothers for defaming a friend of his house with syrup Swastika's and hate messages on Facebook. All three girls were expelled from the private School. And the Mother is on suspension from her job pending a investigation. She drove the girls there but didnt participate.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 16, 2012, 11:52:09 am
No, Jewish is not a race. However, most of the hate crimes laws are constructed to include ethnicity and sex.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 16, 2012, 12:24:47 pm
No, Jewish is not a race. However, most of the hate crimes laws are constructed to include ethnicity and sex.

Yeah. Matthew Shepard comes to mind...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 16, 2012, 12:27:53 pm
Talk about a weird dude. The guy who killed 71 Norwegian school children is admitting guilt but alleging self defense. Why he is still alive I can't imagine.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 16, 2012, 12:46:38 pm
The Rev. Jack$on was complaining that Oklahoma’s hate crime law is not a felony. 

That’s kind of like giving a drunk driver a ticket for his headlight being out after he’s totaled his car.  “Hate crime” is not what I’d consider a stand-alone charge.  It’s going to be filed as a result of an assault or murder.

If it becomes stand-alone, I think we’d all need to be a little scared of government over-reach.  As much as I can’t stand Nazi pinheads they have a right to free speech and if uttering certain epithets became considered “hate speech” and therefore a “hate crime”... well you know where that’s headed...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 16, 2012, 12:51:40 pm
Talk about a weird dude. The guy who killed 71 Norwegian school children is admitting guilt but alleging self defense. Why he is still alive I can't imagine.

With his fist clinched and in the air with defiance. This was one of his statements.

He said the courts received their mandate from political parties that support multi-culturalism.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on April 16, 2012, 12:57:48 pm
Talk about a weird dude. The guy who killed 71 Norwegian school children is admitting guilt but alleging self defense.

Even Anthony Kimbrough claimed self-defense when he shot Gus Spanos, but he had a public defender.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 16, 2012, 01:34:09 pm
Why he is still alive I can't imagine.

Because there are people in this world (rightly, in my view) who don't think the state should have the power to take a person's life, no matter how heinous the crime. In this specific case, the question to be decided is whether he's legally insane and therefore needs treatment or if he actually believes his xenophobic smile with sound mind and should therefore go to prison.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on April 16, 2012, 05:12:57 pm
Because there are people in this world (rightly, in my view) who don't think the state should have the power to take a person's life, no matter how heinous the crime. In this specific case, the question to be decided is whether he's legally insane and therefore needs treatment or if he actually believes his xenophobic smile with sound mind and should therefore go to prison.

Oh, yeah. I understand that. I just don't understand, as a parent, how 71 other parents haven't found a way to snuff him.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 16, 2012, 09:27:51 pm
Gaspar asks a tiny favor to have someone call him crazy and you can't even do that.
What kind of friend are you anyway?
 
 ;D

By the way, Gaspar, you are crazy.


I find more than enough other reasons to call him crazy, so when he exhibits these moments of extreme lucidity, it's tough to call crazy....don't want to discourage him.  And even when he is saying crazy, it's not so much that as just not completely informed - which at times is indistinguishable from insanity.





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 16, 2012, 09:30:06 pm
I agree, but that wasn't the question.
The question is "is an armed advance on someone self defense?"
...and the answer appears to be "depends..."

Of course it depends - that must be self evident.  The county dudes were responding to an event that had already started with acts of violence. 

Zimmerman initiated an act of violence.  Big difference.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 17, 2012, 11:54:03 am
Of course it depends - that must be self evident.  The county dudes were responding to an event that had already started with acts of violence. 

Zimmerman initiated an act of violence.  Big difference.



No, it appears Zimmerman created a confrontation and Martin initiated the violence in response.  Get with the script, man!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 17, 2012, 12:20:47 pm
No, it appears Zimmerman created a confrontation and Martin initiated the violence in response.  Get with the script, man!

Guess I better print out a new script....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 17, 2012, 12:23:27 pm
No, it appears Zimmerman created a confrontation and Martin initiated the violence in response.  Get with the script, man!

Semantics... "created a confrontation"= initiating an act of violence.... the script you read from is twisted.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 17, 2012, 12:28:18 pm
Semantics... "created a confrontation"= initiating an act of violence.... the script you read from is twisted.

In the context of the Florida concealed carry law requirements, which he was trained in, and his actions after the point of leaving his car, that is exactly what he did - initiate an act of violence (Zimmerman).  By definition.




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 17, 2012, 12:42:03 pm
In the context of the Florida concealed carry law requirements, which he was trained in, and his actions after the point of leaving his car, that is exactly what he did - initiate an act of violence (Zimmerman).  By definition.




By definition, following someone is not an act of violence.  Striking someone is an act of violence.  No one, as of yet, as come forward to show that Zimmerman landed the first punch. 

Asking someone what they think they are doing skulking around your neighborhood doesn’t even rise to the level of assault.  If Zimmerman said: “Get the love out of here or I’ll kill you” that would rise to the level of assault, which still is not an act of violence as defined by law but would give Martin a reason to fear for his life. 

Quote
At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in either criminal or civil liability. Generally, the common law definition is the same in criminal and Tort Law. There is, however, an additional Criminal Law category of assault consisting of an attempted but unsuccessful Battery.

Statutory definitions of assault in the various jurisdictions throughout the United States are not substantially different from the common-law definition.

Elements

Generally, the essential elements of assault consist of an act intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact that causes apprehension of such contact in the victim.

The act required for an assault must be overt. Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat. A mere threat to harm is not an assault; however, a threat combined with a raised fist might be sufficient if it causes a reasonable apprehension of harm in the victim.

Intent is an essential element of assault. In tort law, it can be specific intent—if the assailant intends to cause the apprehension of harmful or offensive contact in the victim—or general intent—if he or she intends to do the act that causes such apprehension. In addition, the intent element is satisfied if it is substantially certain, to a reasonable person, that the act will cause the result. A defendant who holds a gun to a victim's head possesses the requisite intent, since it is substantially certain that this act will produce an apprehension in the victim. In all cases, intent to kill or harm is irrelevant.

In criminal law, the attempted battery type of assault requires a Specific Intent to commit battery. An intent to frighten will not suffice for this form of assault.

There can be no assault if the act does not produce a true apprehension of harm in the victim. There must be a reasonable fear of injury. The usual test applied is whether the act would induce such apprehension in the mind of a reasonable person. The status of the victim is taken into account. A threat made to a child might be sufficient to constitute an assault, while an identical threat made to an adult might not.

Virtually all jurisdictions agree that the victim must be aware of the danger. This element is not required, however, for the attempted battery type of assault. A defendant who throws a rock at a sleeping victim can only be guilty of the attempted battery assault, since the victim would not be aware of the possible harm.

Aggravated Assault

An aggravated assault, punishable in all states as a felony, is committed when a defendant intends to do more than merely frighten the victim. Common types of aggravated assaults are those accompanied by an intent to kill, rob, or rape. An assault with a dangerous weapon is aggravated if there is an intent to cause serious harm. Pointing an unloaded gun at a victim to frighten the individual is not considered an aggravated assault.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/assault


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 17, 2012, 01:34:15 pm
No, it appears Zimmerman created a confrontation and Martin initiated the violence in response.

This is completely irrelevant. Whatever protection Zimmerman may have had under the law went away as soon as the fight ended. Martin's body was not found where the fight took place.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 17, 2012, 02:17:34 pm
This is completely irrelevant. Whatever protection Zimmerman may have had under the law went away as soon as the fight ended. Martin's body was not found where the fight took place.

 ::)

Incorrect, incorrect, and ??.

It’s hardly irrelevant.  This is precisely what the jury must consider as to whether or not he will be convicted of 2nd degree murder.

Sounds like the fight ended with a gunshot and beyond that point, Zimmerman still has certain civil rights and protections even if he acted with 100% malice aforethought.  A jury will decide if he acted lawfully in shooting Martin.  Not you or I.

Where you heard the body was moved?  That’s a new revelation on me.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on April 17, 2012, 02:21:43 pm
::)

Incorrect, incorrect, and ??.

It’s hardly irrelevant.  This is precisely what the jury must consider as to whether or not he will be convicted of 2nd degree murder.

Sounds like the fight ended with a gunshot and beyond that point, Zimmerman still has certain civil rights and protections even if he acted with 100% malice aforethought.  A jury will decide if he acted lawfully in shooting Martin.  Not you or I.

Where you heard the body was moved?  That’s a new revelation on me.

May be a new strategy since the sidewalk Zimmerman allegedly was being beaten into was no where near the body.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 17, 2012, 02:32:16 pm
Where you heard the body was moved?  That’s a new revelation on me.

The body wasn't moved. The shooting didn't take place where the fight did. You should listen to the witness testimony that indicates that the fight and the shooting did not take place at the same location. Based on the best public evidence so far, the fight took place at the 'T' in the linked map. The body of Trayvon Martin was found several doors to the south, again, according to witnesses.

http://g.co/maps/5mqnz

Florida law is pretty clear. If your assailant has disengaged and is leaving the area, you can't shoot them and claim self defense under the law. A jury can still call it self defense if they feel like it, obviously, but under Florida law it doesn't appear to be. Zimmerman's defenders typically only quote the section most beneficial to him. They leave out the rest that outlines the requirement to allow your attacker to de-escalate if they request it, among other things.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 17, 2012, 02:37:55 pm
The body wasn't moved. The shooting didn't take place where the fight did. You should listen to the witness testimony that indicates that the fight and the shooting did not take place at the same location. Based on the best public evidence so far, the fight took place at the 'T' in the linked map. The body of Trayvon Martin was found several doors to the south, again, according to witnesses.

http://g.co/maps/5mqnz

Florida law is pretty clear. If your assailant has disengaged and is leaving the area, you can't shoot them and claim self defense under the law. A jury can still call it self defense if they feel like it, obviously, but under Florida law it doesn't appear to be. Zimmerman's defenders typically only quote the section most beneficial to him. They leave out the rest that outlines the requirement to allow your attacker to de-escalate if they request it, among other things.

What distance are they claiming Martin was from Zimmerman when he was shot?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 17, 2012, 02:56:27 pm
What distance are they claiming Martin was from Zimmerman when he was shot?

I'm not making any claim as to Zimmerman's location when he shot, only that the fight and the shooting took place a hundred feet or more apart. The witness who saw them on the ground actually saw them. The ladies who heard the cry for help and the shooting were merely earwitnesses. They did not hear any scuffle before the shooting, only a cry for help immediately followed by a shot. Martin was found dead behind their condo and their window was open.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 17, 2012, 08:42:25 pm
Making a small, and apparently gawd awful joke about Barry. Remember this?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rZKga-ZMMw[/youtube]

Yawn.... at it again I see.... start at 13:13 until 13:50... keep going if you dare....


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp-v2tHaDo[/youtube]

I'm reminded again of why I support and continue to support this guy^^^.... over the guy who was "born on 3rd base but thinks he hit a home run"... whose flip-flops would make John Kerry blush... go figure...
http://www.redstate.com/barleycorn/2012/01/24/mitt-romney-born-on-third-base/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 17, 2012, 10:00:12 pm
Couldn't get passed Obama covering for this dooshnozzle.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnlRrxXv-v8[/youtube]

I thought you'd be all about Romney. Free health care for you paid for by someone else...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 17, 2012, 10:37:52 pm
Couldn't get passed Obama covering for this dooshnozzle.

I thought you'd be all about Romney. Free health care for you paid for by someone else...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-30-2008/festival-of-wrights

Per usual... you think you pay for everyone's... well... everything.
That whole concept of charging someone based on "ability to pay" is evidently foreign (and communist) to you....

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/march/health_care_now_rati.php

Quote
Our nation, which is the only industrial nation in the world that rations medical care by price, ranks 41st in the world in life expectancy. We lose more young lives too.

America lags in newborn mortality and children who die before age 5. Forty-four nations have lower death rates before age 5 than we do.

One can only conclude our medical care rationing system is both very costly and very deadly, especially for poorer Americans. It would be difficult not to do better with any universal care system that does not ration care by ability to pay.

Nations where individual states plan and administer medical care systems can work well, and could approach utopia if they had as much money as we spend. Federal Medicare worked very well until Republicans and their fellow treasury-raiders legislated Medicare D and Medicare Advantage, programs set up to favor for-profit providers, not patients or taxpayers.

How well and at what price states could deliver medical care will depend on how well-structured their delivery systems are and the availability of proper personnel. With resources now available in America, waiting lines or delayed services would be the exception.

No medical care system can do everything for everyone everywhere.

Services are and will be available in Topeka that are not available in Hays, and services will be available in Hays that are not available in Goodland. But movement through the system, whether physical or administrative, can be planned, facilitated, and markedly superior to our present non-system.

In sum, we can have a rational system and use it to its optimum as needed. Any covert rationing would come about because of limitations of personnel or physical facilities, which at current expenditure rates would be highly unlikely.

Beware of those who feign fear of medical care rationing in any universal system, but seem unaware of the death-dealing results we have in our present system of rationing by ability to pay.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 17, 2012, 10:44:50 pm
Per usual... you think you pay for everyone's... well... everything.



Nope. Just don't want to pay for yours. That's it.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 17, 2012, 11:11:45 pm
Nope. Just don't want to pay for yours. That's it.

And I don't want twentysomethings to sacrifice their Pell Grants and be stuck with privatized student loans with crippling compounded interest just to satisfy your socio-economic tribe's flat tax obsession, wealth entitlement dogma, and delusions of being "job creators" while minimum wage is frozen every time another GOP administration is in power.... btw, you've never PAID for a damned thing for me, dude... I went without seeing a doctor for almost twenty years of my life--- and lived to tell the tale... so stop deluding yourself, punk.   :P

The biggest hoax ever perpetrated on the American public is not global warming... it's supply-side economics...

BTW, if my un-armed son was murdered by a neighborhood watch guy who claimed "self defense," I'd DEMAND he be arrested... and I'd DEMAND a jury trial.  

End of story.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 18, 2012, 06:47:08 am
And I don't want twentysomethings to sacrifice their Pell Grants

You haven't complained about Pell Grants for months.  Have you been ill?

Quote
BTW, if my un-armed son was murdered by a neighborhood watch guy who claimed "self defense," I'd DEMAND he be arrested... and I'd DEMAND a jury trial.  

Just because someone DEMANDS something doesn't always make it the right thing to do.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 18, 2012, 07:21:09 am
You haven't complained about Pell Grants for months.  Have you been ill?

Just because someone DEMANDS something doesn't always make it the right thing to do.

It's an entitlement thing. . .

Any time someone offers a segue for Ruff to go off on his minimum wage meme he's going to take it.  Those who demand constant increases in minimum wage are always the least to benefit from it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ct1Moeaa-W8[/youtube]

I'm going to go DEMAND a cup of coffee now. ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 18, 2012, 01:33:10 pm
The judge just quit. http://www.wtop.com/?nid=209&sid=2822392


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 18, 2012, 08:45:49 pm
You haven't complained about Pell Grants for months.  Have you been ill?

No.  I just no longer feel the need to argue politics with a gaggle of self assured conservative partisan hacks on a sleepy little forum.
And yes... I don't want some kid in college to have to go through some of the crap I had to endure during the Reagan administration...

Quote
Just because someone DEMANDS something doesn't always make it the right thing to do.

Ummm.  Never said that.  You might want to take a break from putting words in my mouth to examine what I actually said.

"...if my un-armed son was murdered by a neighborhood watch guy who claimed "self defense," I'd DEMAND he be arrested... and I'd DEMAND a jury trial."  



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 18, 2012, 09:14:06 pm
No.  I just no longer feel the need to argue politics with a gaggle of self assured conservative partisan hacks on a sleepy little forum.
And yes... I don't want some kid in college to have to go through some of the crap I had to endure during the Reagan administration...

Just take some comfort that someone more needy than you was able to get some of the remaining money.  There will always be a cutoff line.  That time you were above it.  I believe you have stated in the past that you did get your college degree.

Quote
Ummm.  Never said that.  You might want to take a break from putting words in my mouth to examine what I actually said.
"...if my un-armed son was murdered by a neighborhood watch guy who claimed "self defense," I'd DEMAND he be arrested... and I'd DEMAND a jury trial."  

Ummmm....   would you care to explain how "Just because someone DEMANDS something doesn't always make it the right thing to do." is putting words in your mouth.  You wrote that you would make two DEMANDs.  You even quoted yourself.   Without further details, we don't know if those demands are justified.  Could be they are, but not necessarily.  It would appear that you are buying into trial by media.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 18, 2012, 09:29:15 pm
It's an entitlement thing. . .
Any time someone offers a segue for Ruff to go off on his minimum wage meme he's going to take it.  Those who demand constant increases in minimum wage are always the least to benefit from it.

"Constant increases?"   How 'bout once every two or three years based on the cost of living?
It is about FAIRNESS and simple HUMAN DECENCY.

"The least to benefit from it?"  Yeah, right... the lowest percentage the annual income from the minimum wage has been of the poverty level was 2006, just before Congress raised it for the first time in a decade. This is the longest period during which the minimum wage has not been adjusted.

When you freeze minimum wage for 10 years, it penalizes and hurts people who can least afford to be penalized and hurt.  And their children.
Sorry you lack a soul.

Maybe when you strike it rich, you'll donate $$$ to establish schools dedicated to "Early Childhood Networking"... so kids can get inspired to sell more girl scout cookies, grow up to be used car salesmen, and discover "there's a sucker born every minute".... guess that's what life is all about... go figure.   ::)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 18, 2012, 09:44:43 pm
Just take some comfort that someone more needy than you was able to get some of the remaining money.  There will always be a cutoff line.  That time you were above it.  I believe you have stated in the past that you did get your college degree.

Ummmm....   would you care to explain how "Just because someone DEMANDS something doesn't always make it the right thing to do." is putting words in your mouth.  You wrote that you would make two DEMANDs.  You even quoted yourself.   Without further details, we don't know if those demands are justified.  Could be they are, but not necessarily.  It would appear that you are buying into trial by media.

Privatizing student loans and slashing pell grants do NOT stimulate the economy.
That held true when I benefited from college financial aid, and decades later when I had no use for college financial aid...

As for the rest of your post:  What are you babbling on about? 

Oy.  Continue to count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.... when my child is dead, I will DEMAND justice and my day in court.
The killer should be arrested and the dead kid's family should have their day in court.  Media circus be damned.
How this simple cry for justice could devolve into conservative arguments centered around "white victimhood" is beyond my ability to comprehend, much less empathize. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 18, 2012, 10:00:23 pm
Privatizing student loans and slashing pell grants do NOT stimulate the economy.
That held true when I benefited from college financial aid, and decades later when I had no use for college financial aid...

I said nothing about stimulating the economy.  Some things we just cannot or will not afford.

Quote
As for the rest of your post:  What are you babbling on about? 
Oy.  Continue to count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.... when my child is dead, I will DEMAND justice and my day in court.
The killer should be arrested and the dead kid's family should have their day in court.  Media circus be damned.
How this simple cry for justice could devolve into conservative arguments centered around "white victimhood" is beyond my ability to comprehend, much less empathize. 

What you didn't say was that your unarmed kid is a martial arts student and the armed person is a 50 yr old with COPD.  Just a for instance.  Demanding justice is not the same as demanding that a particular person be arrested.  My comments have nothing to do with "white victimhood".  You can stop putting words into my posts.  A lawyer friend once told me that justice is the impartial application of the law, or something close to that.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 18, 2012, 10:04:45 pm
"Constant increases?"   How 'bout once every two or three years based on the cost of living?
It is about FAIRNESS and simple HUMAN DECENCY.

Now I'm curious.  How well do you think someone should be able to live working 40 hrs/week on minimum wage?  I expect our thoughts will be different in this area.  For now, ignore whether or not the worker is lazy, unskilled, or just plain unlucky from no cause of their own.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 18, 2012, 10:13:34 pm
What we can't afford is another decade of Bush tax cuts and unfunded wars...... Trayvon's killer should be arrested... a jury should decide whether the killer acted in self defense.
Freezing the federal minimum wage for 8 or 10 years at a time is wrong.
 
Simple, eh.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 19, 2012, 05:34:48 am
Simple, eh.

I guess you are just to simple minded for me.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 19, 2012, 06:20:50 am
I guess you are just to simple minded for me.

Nothing you can say or exemplify will evolve his thinking. 

Someone owes him.  The boss, the government, the rich, the guy next door, Bush, Reagan, someone, anyone. 

His life is not his own.  He is owned.

I don't think he is simple minded, I just think he is angry.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 19, 2012, 07:36:57 am
Nothing you can say or exemplify will evolve his thinking.  

Someone owes him.  The boss, the government, the rich, the guy next door, Bush, Reagan, someone, anyone.  

His life is not his own.  He is owned.

I don't think he is simple minded, I just think he is angry.


Gas, you're about as un-evolved as anyone I've ever read.... which is why I no longer have interest in your farsical posts.... my quote...

Quote
I don't want twentysomethings to sacrifice their Pell Grants and be stuck with privatized student loans with crippling compounded interest just to satisfy your socio-economic tribe's flat tax obsession, wealth entitlement dogma, and delusions of being "job creators" while minimum wage is frozen every time another GOP administration is in power.... btw, you've never PAID for a damned thing for me, dude... I went without seeing a doctor for almost twenty years of my life--- and lived to tell the tale... so stop deluding yourself, punk.  

The biggest hoax ever perpetrated on the American public is not global warming... it's supply-side economics...

BTW, if my un-armed son was murdered by a neighborhood watch guy who claimed "self defense," I'd DEMAND he be arrested... and I'd DEMAND a jury trial.  

End of story.

If you think my opinion constitutes an inflated sense of personal "entitlement," you are no better than the robber barons or union bashers and their wannabes and apologists from a previous century.

You cannot call out a group claiming “special rights” when they DEMAND the same rights you enjoy.  

When one speaks of "trial by media," I remember "trial by Eddie Gaylord and the Daily Oklahoman."

And I look in disgust upon "trial by Breitbart," and "trial by conservative social media."

If we insist there was no injustice when Zimmerman wasn't arrested within a month after he murdered an unarmed teenager.... our grandchildren will look at us with the same embarrassment we look at our racist grandparents who swept the Tulsa "riots" under the rug...




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 19, 2012, 08:02:56 am
What we can't afford is another decade of Bush tax cuts and unfunded wars...... Trayvon's killer should be arrested... a jury should decide whether the killer acted in self defense.
Freezing the federal minimum wage for 8 or 10 years at a time is wrong.
 
Simple, eh.

You aren’t very keen on current events, are you?  Wars are winding down and President Obama swears he’s going to raise taxes.  Zimmerman has been arrested and is awaiting trial.

I assume if Obama is re-elected and he neglects to get taxes raised in the next 4 1/2 years it will still be Bush, Bush, & Reagan’s fault?



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 19, 2012, 11:40:03 am
You aren’t very keen on current events, are you?  Wars are winding down and President Obama swears he’s going to raise taxes.  Zimmerman has been arrested and is awaiting trial.

I assume if Obama is re-elected and he neglects to get taxes raised in the next 4 1/2 years it will still be Bush, Bush, & Reagan’s fault?



Nice try, but it will be the Teabagger/GOP obstinacy that gets us fawked. Look forward?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2012, 12:10:35 pm
I said nothing about stimulating the economy.  Some things we just cannot or will not afford.

We chose not to do it - EVEN THOUGH we have known for a fact for a long long time that paying for education is NOT a cost center, but a profit center.




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2012, 12:13:21 pm
You aren’t very keen on current events, are you?  Wars are winding down and President Obama swears he’s going to raise taxes.  Zimmerman has been arrested and is awaiting trial.

I assume if Obama is re-elected and he neglects to get taxes raised in the next 4 1/2 years it will still be Bush, Bush, & Reagan’s fault?



They will rise.  All he has to do is wait.  Let them expire.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 19, 2012, 12:15:40 pm
Nice try, but it will be the Teabagger/GOP obstinacy that gets us fawked. Look forward?

The Dim Senate won’t even submit a budget.  Dims don’t want tax increases either and did nothing to raise them as they could have between ’09 and ‘11, but blaming the GOP is a nice bogeyman!

Dims leading the dimmer?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 19, 2012, 12:17:07 pm
They will rise.  All he has to do is wait.  Let them expire.



Won’t happen, he chickened out the last time too.  Dim legislators will pout and hold their breath until he declines to do it again.  They’ve got constituents to own up to...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2012, 12:23:43 pm
Won’t happen, he chickened out the last time too.  Dim legislators will pout and hold their breath until he declines to do it again.  They’ve got constituents to own up to...

I bet he will.  There is no future election to worry about and when the next election comes around, the benefits will be so obvious (just like with Reagan, Bush) that all will be forgiven by the general population.


Interesting thing has been happening in the circle of friends/family.  Since Fallin has been such a loud mouth nut case, there are a surprising number (still only a dozen or so) who have come off the most extreme right wing nutcase Merry Go Round and are actually starting to talk some sense.  It all seems to be centered around the plan to eliminate OK's income tax.  The question each of them has asked me is "how are we gonna pay for stuff"?  And I reply - Exactly!  What do you think I have been talking about for years??  Keep on waking up - it is way past time!

And since a good friend went to Texas, and go relief from the 5% income tax, but at an increased cost of an extra $2,000 property taxes OVER what he paid for combined property tax PLUS income tax here, he is not quite as enthralled with the 'no income tax' idea.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 19, 2012, 12:30:53 pm
I bet he will.  There is no future election to worry about and when the next election comes around, the benefits will be so obvious (just like with Reagan, Bush) that all will be forgiven by the general population.


Interesting thing has been happening in the circle of friends/family.  Since Fallin has been such a loud mouth nut case, there are a surprising number (still only a dozen or so) who have come off the most extreme right wing nutcase Merry Go Round and are actually starting to talk some sense.  It all seems to be centered around the plan to eliminate OK's income tax.  The question each of them has asked me is "how are we gonna pay for stuff"?  And I reply - Exactly!  What do you think I have been talking about for years??  Keep on waking up - it is way past time!

And since a good friend went to Texas, and go relief from the 5% income tax, but at an increased cost of an extra $2,000 property taxes OVER what he paid for combined property tax PLUS income tax here, he is not quite as enthralled with the 'no income tax' idea.


He may become a lame duck, but he still has to be a company man and run interference for legislators and whomever the Democrat hopeful is in ’16.

My understanding on Fallin’s tax cuts is there is a clear offset with other fees so it balances.  No idea if it’s workable or not.  If it forces government to get smaller, I fail to see that as a bad thing.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2012, 12:36:22 pm
He may become a lame duck, but he still has to be a company man and run interference for legislators and whomever the Democrat hopeful is in ’16.

My understanding on Fallin’s tax cuts is there is a clear offset with other fees so it balances.  No idea if it’s workable or not.  If it forces government to get smaller, I fail to see that as a bad thing.


You of all people...???!!!!  How many times did you drive up and down that turnpike??

Smaller in our case directly means less support of education, roads, infrastructure, and business development.  All the things that we hear her claiming as critical to bringing in more business to the state.  But we all know that since she talks in "1984 Speak", whatever noise comes out of that mouth is the opposite of the real meaning.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 19, 2012, 12:50:43 pm
You aren’t very keen on current events, are you?  Wars are winding down and President Obama swears he’s going to raise taxes.  Zimmerman has been arrested and is awaiting trial.

I assume if Obama is re-elected and he neglects to get taxes raised in the next 4 1/2 years it will still be Bush, Bush, & Reagan’s fault?

I learned of the arrest when it FINALLY happened... better late than never I suppose... and thanks for turning me on to Al Sharpton, $onan71... his show doesn't seem to match your conservative meme for him... funny dat.

It's Obama and the Dems fault that we have no public option AND mandatory medical insurance... could've have given him a pass on one or the other, but not both.... these days, college is no longer an option, it's a necessity... what if, in the name of privatization, we closed down all "public options" in higher education (OU, OSU, NSU, TCC, etc etc) and subsequently "mandated" that all college students go to private schools?... and you wonder why we pay more for medical care than any industrialized country in the world...

Have a nice day!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 19, 2012, 12:53:49 pm

Have a nice day!


I think that's his way of saying FU!
 :D




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 19, 2012, 12:55:25 pm

You of all people...???!!!!  How many times did you drive up and down that turnpike??

Smaller in our case directly means less support of education, roads, infrastructure, and business development.  All the things that we hear her claiming as critical to bringing in more business to the state.  But we all know that since she talks in "1984 Speak", whatever noise comes out of that mouth is the opposite of the real meaning.



You of all people should know the Turner Turnpike is funded by one of those uber-efficient stand-alone bureaucracies you and Aqua have been vigorously defending and is not dependent on personal income tax but rather a direct user fee.

Smaller can also mean consolidation of wasteful school districts which eliminates over-lapping supervisory positions, over-built prison system, and over-built college/university system.  It can also mean eliminating useless supervisory and clerical positions all over state government.  It doesn’t necessarily have to mean a cut in services, simply streamlining how we get those services.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 19, 2012, 12:58:07 pm
I learned of the arrest when it FINALLY happened... better late than never I suppose... and thanks for turning me on to Al Sharpton, $onan71... his show doesn't seem to match your conservative meme for him... funny dat.

It's Obama and the Dems fault that we have no public option AND mandatory medical insurance... could've have given him a pass on one or the other, but not both.... these days, college is no longer an option, it's a necessity... what if, in the name of privatization, we closed down all "public options" in higher education (OU, OSU, NSU, TCC, etc etc) and subsequently "mandated" that all college students go to private schools?... and you wonder why we pay more for medical care than any industrialized country in the world...

Have a nice day!


That’s some of your best dis-jointed logic yet!  Keep going! 

Hey wait...you aren’t posting from The Empire are you?

Have a great day as well, you liberal hack!!!  ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: erfalf on April 19, 2012, 01:07:35 pm

You of all people...???!!!!  How many times did you drive up and down that turnpike??

Smaller in our case directly means less support of education, roads, infrastructure, and business development.  All the things that we hear her claiming as critical to bringing in more business to the state.  But we all know that since she talks in "1984 Speak", whatever noise comes out of that mouth is the opposite of the real meaning.



Education shouldn't be harmed all that much, after all it's funding does not really come from the state. Only state highways should be affected (interstates primarily by the fed, and local roads paid for with sales tax). I figure the biggest hit will be taken by the health department or the department of corrections. But again, we have institutions at the county level that mimic many of the services the state provides. I don't think it is going to be the sky is falling scenario you are painting.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2012, 03:08:23 pm
You of all people should know the Turner Turnpike is funded by one of those uber-efficient stand-alone bureaucracies you and Aqua have been vigorously defending and is not dependent on personal income tax but rather a direct user fee.


Yeah, I know...I threw that in just to make sure you were awake...
And I have been promoting abolition of the turnpikes literally for decades.  Even started a petition just before the last one that went down to defeat several years ago.

The rest stands and is valid.  I hate income tax, but I hate the alternatives worse.  And we got such a double dose of adverse alternatives going on here, it is definitely not funny.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 19, 2012, 03:10:54 pm
If it forces government to get smaller, I fail to see that as a bad thing.

What specific programs do you propose be cut?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 19, 2012, 05:29:10 pm
We chose not to do it - EVEN THOUGH we have known for a fact for a long long time that paying for education is NOT a cost center, but a profit center.

Sometimes cash flow wins over eventual economy.  My brother once bought a brand new car because the payments on the new car would be the same as the payments on the car he already had.  The car he already had needed tires and some relatively minor repairs that he could not afford on top of the existing car payments.  He wound up making payments for a few more years than he originally planned but the cash flow was there.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: dbacks fan on April 20, 2012, 02:29:21 am
MARSHALL'S


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 20, 2012, 07:58:59 am
Sometimes cash flow wins over eventual economy.  My brother once bought a brand new car because the payments on the new car would be the same as the payments on the car he already had.  The car he already had needed tires and some relatively minor repairs that he could not afford on top of the existing car payments.  He wound up making payments for a few more years than he originally planned but the cash flow was there.


False economy.  That is one prime example of how people avoid the burden of accumulating wealth...

And if he could not afford relatively minor upkeep, he certainly couldn't afford a new car - the solution is a good, older used model, with lower (or no) payment, and still relatively minor repair costs.  I joke with a sister that she trades in a car when the tank gets low on gas - amazingly close to true.  But then, she can afford that kind of thing... I bought one of her "out of gas" vehicles one time, and have since put 220,000 miles on it and still going strong - about halfway through what I expect to be the life of the engine.  With maintenance that has been way under $100 per month, even with a new transmission at 200,000+ miles.

And government is doing the same wrong headed BS.  With a return of 200, 300, 400% or more, even the most idiotic legislator....oh, wait!  I forgot, I'm in Oklahoma...  we got Failin, and Kern and Jim Inhofe.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 20, 2012, 08:07:12 am
Like a Japanese car in "The Fast And Furious" This thread sure can drift.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 20, 2012, 09:33:01 am
False economy.  That is one prime example of how people avoid the burden of accumulating wealth...
And if he could not afford relatively minor upkeep, he certainly couldn't afford a new car - the solution is a good, older used model, with lower (or no) payment, and still relatively minor repair costs. 

He had some other relatively short term expenses at the time that made the new car a good option.  The new car was the same payment per month.  It was brand new, with warranty.  The existing car was near the end of its payments but not near enough and it wouldn't pass inspection.  Remember car inspections?  Trying to sell his car for an even older one which needed fixing didn't make sense.  The first thing he would have to do is pay off the existing car which meant that he would not be able to buy a car as good as the one he had.  Even one with lower payments would have been a probable step down in reliability.   He was driving a Honda Civic so it was not as though he could step down from something like a Mercedes.  He fully admitted that in the long run it would cost more but he had a reliable car for the same cash flow that wasn't going to cost any maintenance until his other expenses were paid off.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 20, 2012, 09:48:31 am
The back of Zimmerman's head?

(http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/zimmerman-photo-bloody.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 20, 2012, 09:52:13 am
The back of Zimmerman's head?

(http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/zimmerman-photo-bloody.jpg)

Fake blood on a zombie on Halloween.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 20, 2012, 10:17:24 am
Ya, I would have to say Hollywood can do so much better than that.
Back to the drawing board.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on April 20, 2012, 10:41:44 am
He probably got that mark from the cops while getting into the police car.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on April 21, 2012, 07:30:32 pm
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DwJKitJ2ock/T5A60QCVuII/AAAAAAAADE8/VzmiEYfK460/s1600/DOGEATDOG.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on April 25, 2012, 04:03:02 pm
The racial makeup of this case seems to be changing yet again.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: jacobi on April 25, 2012, 07:57:28 pm
Are we still talking about this?  It seems at the moment that George wasn't acting in self defense but the facts could change.  That said...

Guido, could you quit being a divisive pretend lawyer for 10 seconds and not make this about what the president had fed to him when he was a kid?  Also, your handle is offensive.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 25, 2012, 08:03:40 pm
The racial makeup of this case seems to be changing yet again.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

so he's a white Hispanic black or is it white black Hispanic ?

my political correctness studies aren't up to date....

I don't know if Zimmerman is a racist or not (I tend to doubt it), but I don't think that having a great-great grandparent of "Afro-Peruvian" descent negates the possibility. We all came from the same region...

This was never all about race...more about lousy legislation and pathetic homicide investigating.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 26, 2012, 08:12:56 am
Quote
George picked a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm handgun, a popular, lightweight weapon.

A Kel-Tec?!? Oh the shame!

So a few things we learned:  he’s not half Jewish since dad was a Baptist and he’s actually Latino since his mother was Peruvian.

The story paints a picture of someone who was wound up a bit tight over a rising crime rate in his community, definitely not a racist who was simply looking for an opportunity to shoot a black person.  It’s unfortunate that the usual race-baiters can’t seem to see that.

Regardless of the verdict, Zimmerman has already lost.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 26, 2012, 10:33:24 am
Your right Conan. There is not a hole deep enough that he can hide in. The race hate is going to find him anywhere he goes. His life basicly has been media ruined.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 26, 2012, 10:56:33 am
Your right Conan. There is not a hole deep enough that he can hide in. The race hate is going to find him anywhere he goes. His life basicly has been media ruined.

Do not be idiotic...first, it's you're. And secondly, blaming the media for this retards action goes beyond the pale. Now, forget the discussion and attack me for using the term "retard." I'm holding it for you....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 26, 2012, 11:51:23 am
Do not be idiotic...first, it's you're. And secondly, blaming the media for this retards action goes beyond the pale. Now, forget the discussion and attack me for using the term "retard." I'm holding it for you....

Eh. Never really paid to much attention to grammer. But if it upsets you then I'm glad I didn't.
That word really has never bothered me but since you and Rupert like it so be it.

And when I use that word, I just say Tard. Kind of has that new hip sound to it.
I was going to ask what happened to the spell check on here. But whats the use. We have TTC


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Townsend on April 26, 2012, 11:54:33 am
Eh. Never really paid to much attention to grammer. But if it upsets you then I'm glad I didn't.
That word really has never bothered me but since you and Rupert like it so be it.


too*


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 26, 2012, 11:58:50 am
too*

OMG you two ?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 26, 2012, 11:59:28 am
The story paints a picture of someone who was wound up a bit tight over a rising crime rate in his community, definitely not a racist who was simply looking for an opportunity to shoot a black person.  It’s unfortunate that the usual race-baiters can’t seem to see that.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything? Whether or not he bought the weapon intending to use it in the way he used it, he still (probably) murdered a kid. The uproar was about the police having (apparently) initially failed to do a reasonably thorough investigation, coached some witnesses, and failed to interview other witnesses.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Townsend on April 26, 2012, 12:12:07 pm
OMG you two ?

Just funnin'.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on April 26, 2012, 02:06:30 pm
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything? Whether or not he bought the weapon intending to use it in the way he used it, he still (probably) murdered a kid. The uproar was about the police having (apparently) initially failed to do a reasonably thorough investigation, coached some witnesses, and failed to interview other witnesses.

That’s what this should have been about all along.  It wasn’t, and it was cobbled into something much more salacious by deliberately altering the facts of what actually transpired by selectively editing tapes, photos, and video footage.

No, the big uproar the national media and the usual race-baiters tried to foment was about supposed “profiling” and why a "white hispanic" man hadn’t been arrested for shooting a black kid.  They played the race angle very hard in case you missed that part.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 26, 2012, 02:31:57 pm
They played the race angle very hard in case you missed that part.

"They" who? Does that include me?

Played the "race angle" .... it's still to be studied as integrated it may be into the crime.

Nobody's missed anything...lots still to come out in the future drama over the law, the evidence, and the verdict.

Wait and we will see.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 26, 2012, 03:25:07 pm
Wow. So this is the answer to the justice for Trayvon. Second one in less than a week.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/26/suspect-attacked-white-teen-because-am-angry-about-trayvon/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on April 26, 2012, 03:47:02 pm
No, the big uproar the national media and the usual race-baiters tried to foment was about supposed “profiling” and why a "white hispanic" man hadn’t been arrested for shooting a black kid.  They played the race angle very hard in case you missed that part.

Given the department's history and the allegations of witness coaching I don't think it is completely unreasonable to think race may have been a factor in the initial policework. I don't remember media figures calling Zimmerman himself a racist. I'm sure some blogger or commenter did at some point, though.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 26, 2012, 04:06:59 pm
Wow. So this is the answer to the justice for Trayvon. Second one in less than a week.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/26/suspect-attacked-white-teen-because-am-angry-about-trayvon/

Wow....a credible source? Violence is wrong. Leave it at that....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 26, 2012, 06:02:40 pm
Wow....a credible source? Violence is wrong. Leave it at that....

No hate crime?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 27, 2012, 09:38:04 am
No hate crime?

Exactly ! It's only seen one way. And these thugs are even claiming it.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 27, 2012, 11:38:03 am
Exactly ! It's only seen one way. And these thugs are even claiming it.

Wow....making things up to fit your side of the discussion. You must be a GOP/Teabagger. ;D

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2gA9e_LrpUY[/youtube]

1:19 mark for those with short attention spans.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 27, 2012, 12:12:04 pm
Wow....making things up to fit your side of the discussion. You must be a GOP/Teabagger. ;D

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2gA9e_LrpUY[/youtube]

1:19 mark for those with short attention spans.

What part of him saying he beat and robbed the man because he was white. Doesn't constitute a "Hate Crime" ?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 27, 2012, 12:21:06 pm
Bobby, you're way too slow.  :o
What part of him saying, "he beat and robbed the man because he was white" doesn't constitute a "Hate Crime" ?
let me hep ya out here wit yo gramma.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 27, 2012, 12:23:49 pm
Bobby, you're way too slow.  :o

Ok I'm not sure where you jumped the track at but the video you posted was quite the head scratcher.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on April 27, 2012, 12:26:13 pm
Ok I'm not sure where you jumped the track at but the video you posted was quite the head scratcher.

Head scratchier? You come across as a ball scratchier.... :)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on April 27, 2012, 12:43:28 pm
Head scratchier? You come across as a ball scratchier.... :)

Wow ! I haven't been Schooled like that since I was about ten.
However will I get over it ?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on April 27, 2012, 04:41:00 pm
let me hep ya out here wit yo gramma.

My Gramma passed away 13 years ago at age 97.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on April 29, 2012, 03:45:49 am
Dear Republicans,

What part of "Thou shalt not kill" do you fail to comprehend?

GOD.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on May 03, 2012, 11:14:17 pm
A somewhat more clearcut example of a hate crime:


A grand jury has decided not to indict the officer who fatally shot an unarmed chronically ill elderly black man. There will be no trial for Officer Anthony Carelli, who shot Marine veteran Kenneth Chamberlain, Sr.

Carelli, an officer since 2004 who is also on trial in a separate police brutality case, shot Chamberlain Sr. on Nov. 19.  Chamberlain, who suffered from a chronic heart condition and wore a pendant to signal LifeAid, had mistakenly triggered his medical alert that evening—police insisted on entering his apartment, although he said he was fine. Tensions grew as one officer allegedly used the N-word, another officer was reportedly heard yelling, “I need to use your bathroom to pee!" and others were allegedly mocking Chamberlain’s military service after they discovered he was a former Marine.

The lawyer for the family of Chamberlain Sr., who reviewed the LifeAid audiobox recording (which picked up every sound inside the apartment during the fatal confrontation) and the security camera video, said: “The minute they got in the house, they didn’t even give him one command. They never mentioned ‘put your hands up.’ They never told him to lay down on the bed. The first thing they did...you could see the Taser light up...and you could see it going directly toward him.” Police claim Chamberlain was an "emotionally disturbed" man who first appeared to have a hatchet during the standoff, then later came at them with a knife—which wasn't captured on video—when Carelli fired two shots. Chamberlain died a few hours later in surgery from his wounds.

According to The Daily News, Carelli is one of six White Plains officers accused of using excessive force in a $10 million civil lawsuit brought by twin brothers of Jordanian decent who claim Carelli referred to them as “rag heads” while police beat them outside Black Bear Saloon in 2008. One of the brothers was handcuffed to a pole while Carelli allegedly beat him with a baton causing head and eye injuries, the newspaper said.

However, Carelli said in a deposition that one of the brothers was hitting his own head against a partition in the police car. Carelli said he had to pin the brother to the ground, with the help of other officers, after he became belligerent and tried to escape the officers.

McLaughlin said that transcripts from the Westchester County District Attorney’s Office of audio recordings of the night Chamberlain was killed, reveal Officer Steven Hart as the officer who said to Chamberlain, “Stop, we have to talk ni**er” before police broke down his door.

Janet DiFiore acknowledged Thursday that one officer used a racial epithet to distract Chamberlain.

“My family and I are profoundly saddened at the fact that there was no indictment in the murder of Kenneth Chamberlain Sr.,” the victim's son Kenneth Chamberlain Jr. said in the statement. “I have a hard time putting my trust in a system that I feel has failed me already.” The family has also said the medical examiner’s autopsy report’s description of the path of the bullet shows that Chamberlain could not have been raising his arm to stab an officer when he was shot.


(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120503104849-kenneth-chamberlain-crime-scene-photographs-story-top.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on May 09, 2012, 10:24:50 pm
"Guns don't kill people, hoodies do..." Geraldo Rivera

(http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/439459/757983.jpg)

(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/562195_383480491694354_152495424792863_1036673_347682178_n.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2012, 10:37:25 pm
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/562195_383480491694354_152495424792863_1036673_347682178_n.jpg)


I knew it!!!   Mark Zuckerberg is a criminal!!!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: dbacks fan on May 11, 2012, 02:27:03 am
How about a neo-nazi, white supremeist, border vigalante not wanted by the minute-men malitia, that hates hispanics, moves into and freeloads of the family and then executes them, and thank god himself.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2012/05/03/20120503gilbert-shooting-before-bloodshed-signs-abuse-home.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2012/05/03/20120503gilbert-shooting-before-bloodshed-signs-abuse-home.html)

http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2012/05/02/20120502gilbert-mass-shooting-white-supremacist-jt-ready-left-tracks-politics.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2012/05/02/20120502gilbert-mass-shooting-white-supremacist-jt-ready-left-tracks-politics.html)

One of his victims was 15 months old.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2012/05/04/20120504gilbert-shooting-baby-girl-lilly-mederos-dad-abrk.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2012/05/04/20120504gilbert-shooting-baby-girl-lilly-mederos-dad-abrk.html)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 11, 2012, 07:22:00 am
How about a neo-nazi, white supremeist, border vigalante not wanted by the minute-men malitia, that hates hispanics, moves into and freeloads of the family and then executes them, and thank god himself.

One of his victims was 15 months old.



Horrible.


Nothing as despicable on this planet as someone who hurts children.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on May 17, 2012, 05:42:18 pm
Is this going to be the Duke case Florida style? Who knows.

Quote
"Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of his head," Officer Ricardo Ayala wrote.

Another officer wrote, "I saw that Zimmerman's face was bloodied and it appeared to me that his nose was broken."

Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.

"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style,'" the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnesses-back-george-zimmermans-version/story?id=16371852#.T7WLDMX4L3Y


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on May 18, 2012, 08:51:30 am
Looks like "Justice for Trayvon" was served. High on pot and new photos of Zimmerman show a broken nose and two gashes on the back of his head.
Where you at now Jesse and Al?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on May 18, 2012, 09:00:29 am
Let's not rule out Zimmerman's time in the jail house....other inmates being held? Bad cops?

Let's let justice prevail. Please quit attacking Al and Jesse ....makes you appear prejudiced.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on May 18, 2012, 09:05:55 am
Zimmerman is still going to have a hard time beating at least 2nd degree manslaughter if the jury thinks he instigated the incident by not remaining in his vehicle in the first place. 

Here’s the logic: If Trayvon thought he was in danger, he also had a right to protect himself.  What the jury is going to have to decide is did the altercation start with Zimmerman getting out of his vehicle to follow Martin on foot or did Martin start the altercation by attacking Zimmerman?

In either case, Zimmerman had a clear right to protect himself when he came under attack from Martin, but if his actions are seen as what instigated it, he’s screwed.

Either way, we all lose.  If he’s acquitted, expect rioting on the magnitude of LA and Long Beach 20 years ago.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on May 18, 2012, 09:09:39 am
I totally disagree with your aftermath prediction. If justice is served, everyone will learn to live with the verdict. There's no footage of police beating the snot out of a black man and the trial will be held in the same jurisdiction where a crime may have been committed.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on May 18, 2012, 09:11:51 am
I totally disagree with your aftermath prediction. If justice is served, everyone will learn to live with the verdict. There's no footage of police beating the snot out of a black man and the trial will be held in the same jurisdiction where a crime may have been committed.

I like your optimism. I hope you are right.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on May 18, 2012, 09:22:17 am
I totally disagree with your aftermath prediction. If justice is served, everyone will learn to live with the verdict. There's no footage of police beating the snot out of a black man and the trial will be held in the same jurisdiction where a crime may have been committed.

Doesn’t matter.  In case you haven’t noticed racial tensions are pretty high right now and Trayvon Martin has been elevated to the level of martyr.  If the leaders the black community looks up to says it was a travesty of justice, there will be trouble.  Some people don’t believe justice has been served unless it suits the outcome they wanted in the first place.

The King riots had far more to do with race than people vs. cops.  How do you explain white civilians like Reginald Denny being savaged by mobs of black people?

If Zimmerman is acquitted, do you think Trayvon’s parents will believe justice was served?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on May 18, 2012, 09:24:36 am
Doesn’t matter.  In case you haven’t noticed racial tensions are pretty high right now and Trayvon Martin has been elevated to the level of martyr.  If the leaders the black community looks up to says it was a travesty of justice, there will be trouble.  Some people don’t believe justice has been served unless it suits the outcome they wanted in the first place.

The King riots had far more to do with race than people vs. cops.  How do you explain white civilians like Reginald Denny being savaged by mobs of black people?

If Zimmerman is acquitted, do you think Trayvon’s parents will believe justice was served?

If you could only read between the lines of your own posts. ::)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on May 18, 2012, 09:30:22 am
Doesn’t matter.  In case you haven’t noticed racial tensions are pretty high right now and Trayvon Martin has been elevated to the level of martyr.  If the leaders the black community looks up to says it was a travesty of justice, there will be trouble.  Some people don’t believe justice has been served unless it suits the outcome they wanted in the first place.
I'm a racist.
The King riots had far more to do with race than people vs. cops.  How do you explain white civilians like Reginald Denny being savaged by mobs of black people?
I'm a racist.
If Zimmerman is acquitted, do you think Trayvon’s parents will believe justice was served?
I'm a racist.

Conan, I think this is what Tea sees "between the lines" of your post.  Vary faint, but if you want to see it, it is there.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on May 18, 2012, 09:38:10 am
Conan, I think this is what Tea sees "between the lines" of your post.  Vary faint, but if you want to see it, it is there.


I see empty space.  Was I supposed to see something else?  Why is it facts are like kryptonite to liberals?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on May 18, 2012, 09:44:04 am
I see empty space.  Was I supposed to see something else?  Why is it facts are like kryptonite to liberals?

It's something only Teatown can see, but if you highlight the lines with your curser, you just might be able to make it out.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on May 18, 2012, 09:44:43 am
I see empty space.  Was I supposed to see something else?  Why is it facts are like kryptonite to liberals?

I figgered you'd see nothing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PlC72nt3Ww[/youtube]

 :D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on May 18, 2012, 09:46:28 am
I figgered you'd see nothing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PlC72nt3Ww[/youtube]

 :D

That’s truly relevant.

What say you about Martin’s parents and if they will feel justice was served, should Zimmerman be acquitted?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on May 18, 2012, 10:05:49 am
I will pass on pre judging the parents response.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on May 18, 2012, 10:17:37 am
I will pass on pre judging the parents response.

Actually I think the parents have been pretty good about all of this. Except for being pumped by the predjudice of Jesse and Al.

Happy now?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on May 18, 2012, 11:45:30 am
Looks like "Justice for Trayvon" was served. High on pot and new photos of Zimmerman show a broken nose and two gashes on the back of his head.
Where you at now Jesse and Al?

Even FOX News said there was only evidence of Pot in the amounts that maybe he had used it a day or two before.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on May 18, 2012, 11:55:19 am
I figgered you'd see nothing:

I figured you'd figure he'd see nothing.

(I can't see you-tube here at work.)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on May 18, 2012, 11:55:37 am
Actually I think the parents have been pretty good about all of this. Except for being pumped by the predjudice of Jesse and Al.

Happy now?

The parents have been very civil and reasonable, even when members of the media have tried to goad them to reaction. Trayvon's mother in particular has been a model strength through an unimaginable tragedy. Unfortunate they had to be subjected to the parasites who want, without regard for justice, to impose their own views for their own sake.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on June 01, 2012, 02:44:11 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/george-zimmerman-bond-revoked-190108284.html

a pattern of lying emerges....who here contributed?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on June 05, 2012, 08:48:46 am
Wow.... now they're blaming the Treyvon supporters. This guy needs to sit in jail and await the verdict.
Zimmerman Lawyer Admits Zimmerman Misled Court At Bail Hearing, Blames Trayvon Martin Supporters
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/04/494783/zimmerman-lawyer-admits-zimmerman-mislead-court-at-bail-hearing-blames-trayvon-martin-supporters/


and in related news: %70 seems high....but Floriduh's over 2/3 red neckie so nothing should sooprise us there....
In Florida, Nearly 70 Percent Of People Who Invoked ‘Stand Your Ground’ Walked Away Scot Free
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/03/493908/nearly-one-third-of-shooters-who-invoked-stand-your-ground-walked-away-scot-free/


This thread rocks with guilt!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on June 05, 2012, 09:25:59 am


and in related news: %70 seems high....but Floriduh's over 2/3 red neckie so nothing should sooprise us there....
In Florida, Nearly 70 Percent Of People Who Invoked ‘Stand Your Ground’ Walked Away Scot Free
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/03/493908/nearly-one-third-of-shooters-who-invoked-stand-your-ground-walked-away-scot-free/


This thread rocks with guilt!

That means they are actually examining cases and acting on them if 30% of those who invoke the defense aren’t getting by with it.

Do you want to do prison time if you shoot someone who assaults you in front of your house?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on June 05, 2012, 09:40:24 am
That means they are actually examining cases and acting on them if 30% of those who invoke the defense aren’t getting by with it.

Do you want to do prison time if you shoot someone who assaults you in front of your house?

CoCo loco, why do you always come to the defense of the minority? and the victim-less? :D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on June 05, 2012, 11:38:34 am
There is no pride in being a victim. 



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on June 05, 2012, 01:30:20 pm

In Florida, Nearly 70 Percent Of People Who Invoked ‘Stand Your Ground’ Walked Away Scot Free


Sad.   In Oklahoma most everyone who kills someone else in self defense gets to go free.    I guess I am glad I live here and not there.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on June 05, 2012, 05:05:50 pm
Sad.   In Oklahoma most everyone who kills someone else in self defense gets to go free.

That someone claims they shot/stabbed/whatever someone else in self defense does not make it so. Many people have this bad habit of lying when the alternative involves a prison cell and a big guy named Bubba.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on June 05, 2012, 08:12:57 pm
That someone claims they shot/stabbed/whatever someone else in self defense does not make it so. Many people have this bad habit of lying when the alternative involves a prison cell and a big guy named Bubba.

So the take-away is: be afraid to defend yourself?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on June 05, 2012, 08:16:43 pm
So the take-away is: be afraid to defend yourself?

No, the takeaway is that every time one person kills another person it should be thoroughly and fairly investigated, and it should come as no surprise that in some cases people who claim self defense were not actually acting in self defense.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on June 05, 2012, 08:18:41 pm
No, the takeaway is that every time one person kills another person it should be thoroughly and fairly investigated, and it should come as no surprise that in some cases people who claim self defense were not actually acting in self defense.

So long as your idea of a thorough investigation doesn’t go as far as Wevus’ notion that everyone should stand trial who defends themselves, I’ve got no argument with that.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on June 05, 2012, 08:26:56 pm
So long as your idea of a thorough investigation doesn’t go as far as Wevus’ notion that everyone should stand trial who defends themselves

It was my notion and I stand by it as an ideal. Practically speaking, it ain't going to happen, so I'll take what I can get.

FWIW, the reason I think a trial is the best way to adjudicate guilt or the lack thereof is simply that it's the best means we have of arriving at something approaching the truth and that there's less opportunity for certain people to exert undue influence on the process and get away with something merely because of their community stature or wealth or fame or whatever.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on June 05, 2012, 09:49:01 pm
It was my notion and I stand by it as an ideal. Practically speaking, it ain't going to happen, so I'll take what I can get.

FWIW, the reason I think a trial is the best way to adjudicate guilt or the lack thereof is simply that it's the best means we have of arriving at something approaching the truth and that there's less opportunity for certain people to exert undue influence on the process and get away with something merely because of their community stature or wealth or fame or whatever.

*cough* OJ *cough* Simpson *cough* 

You honestly think that money and influence don’t taint juries?  How about a national-scale media circus like the one Zimmerman has been subjected to?  He didn’t ask for it either.  There’s not a single potential juror within the state of Florida or even within the United States who will not be able to say they have not heard about the case beforehand and that they don’t have some sort of preconceived opinion on the case due to proven selective reporting throughout this ordeal.

I’m assuming you’ve never sat on a jury for a week.  If you have, you’d realize a trial would be an un-due penalty on someone who lawfully defended themselves.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on June 05, 2012, 10:15:12 pm
I’m assuming you’ve never sat on a jury for a week.  If you have, you’d realize a trial would be an un-due penalty on someone who lawfully defended themselves.

Most murder trials don't last a week. I seem to remember The Innocent Man citing some numbers.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Townsend on June 12, 2012, 02:58:16 pm
The wife's been arrested for perjury.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on June 12, 2012, 03:18:56 pm
The wife's been arrested for perjury.

If her husband hadn’t been a racist bastard none of this would have ever happened.

Wait...what?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on June 12, 2012, 04:16:19 pm
If her husband hadn’t been a racist bastard none of this would have ever happened.

Wait...what?

You can run but you can't hide. Too much evidence. You've left tracks. :D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on June 12, 2012, 04:28:50 pm
She's a looker: (http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/mug_shot.jpg) a tad little white trashy look...the look of evil is in her eyes....


http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Shellie-Zimmerman-Arrest-6-12-12.pdf




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on June 12, 2012, 04:31:36 pm
She's a looker: (http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/mug_shot.jpg) a tad little white trashy look...the look of evil is in her eyes....


http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Shellie-Zimmerman-Arrest-6-12-12.pdf




Misogynist



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 05, 2012, 10:06:09 pm
Quote
Zimmerman Attorney Seeks Donations From People Who Also Would Have Shot Trayvon Martin

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/07/05/511620/zimmerman-attorney-seeks-donations-from-people-who-also-would-have-shot-trayvon-martin/

Today, Florida Judge Kenneth Lester set a new bond of $1 million for George Zimmerman. Lester said that Zimmerman, whose bond was originally set at just $150,000, was “manipulating the system” and, but for GPS monitoring, “would have fled the United States with at least $130,000” that he failed to diclose to the court.
In a posting to his website after the new bond was announced, Zimmerman attorney Mark O’Mara sought more donations from people who also would have shot and killed Trayvon Martin:
For those who have given in the past, for those who have thought about giving, for those who feel Mr. Zimmerman was justified in his actions, for those who feel they would do the same if they were in Mr. Zimmerman’s shoes, for those that think Mr. Zimmerman has been treated unfairly by the media, for those who feel Mr. Zimmerman has been falsely accused as a racist, for those who feel this case is an affront to their constitutional rights — now is the time to show your support.
O’Mara said Zimmerman would pay an additional $85,000 to a bail bondsman to secure his release but, combined with other expenses, would wipe out his current legal defense fund.
Previously, Zimmerman apologized to Trayvon Martin’s parents for shooting and killing their son. He said that he thought Martin was older and did not know if he was armed.

Conan, sent your check yet? Guido? Gassie?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 06, 2012, 07:42:15 am
Nice way for the pinkos at soros.com to spin the headline.

They managed to cobble:

“for those who would have also shot Trayvon Martin”

from:

Quote
"for those who feel Mr. Zimmerman was justified in his actions, for those who feel they would do the same if they were in Mr. Zimmerman’s shoes, for those that think Mr. Zimmerman has been treated unfairly by the media, for those who feel Mr. Zimmerman has been falsely accused as a racist,"

Have some young punk you don’t know break your nose and beat your head into the pavement and think about how you would react before you give in to the obvious dooshbaggery of moon bat websites.  Now that more physical evidence has been revealed it looks a whole lot more like Zimmerman may have been justified in defending himself. 

I still don’t agree with him pursuing Martin, but Martin didn’t have to start beating on Zimmerman either.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 06, 2012, 07:57:28 am
Nice way for the pinkos at soros.com to spin the headline.

They managed to cobble:

“for those who would have also shot Trayvon Martin”

from:

Have some young punk you don’t know break your nose and beat your head into the pavement and think about how you would react before you give in to the obvious dooshbaggery of moon bat websites.  Now that more physical evidence has been revealed it looks a whole lot more like Zimmerman may have been justified in defending himself.  

I still don’t agree with him pursuing Martin, but Martin didn’t have to start beating on Zimmerman either.
\\

Yeah, they spun the intro to the post, but it wasn't by much.

What you leave out of your analysis is the surrounding facts. Do you think the kid might have had concerns about the manner in which Zimmerman approached him? Think this and countless other similar stories might have come to mind? http://gma.yahoo.com/mickey-shunick-case-police-charge-sexual-offender-murder-072018344--abc-news-topstories.html

A high school kid being followed by an adult in a car who was badgering him and pretending to be a cop, who then jumped out of his car and started towards the kid. Whether the gun was visible doesn't even matter. Of course, you defend yourself with zeal. Break his nose, poke his eye, whatever. The one thing my father impressed on me is that if a fight is imminent, and you're concerned about being outsized, outgunned or have limited egress available....make the first punch and make it count.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on July 06, 2012, 10:02:22 am
Ya that's why I start every conversation with a question of aggression. "You got a problem?" No. "Now you do"
I believe that's what was quoted him saying.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 06, 2012, 11:33:38 am
Ya that's why I start every conversation with a question of aggression. "You got a problem?" No. "Now you do"
I believe that's what was quoted him saying.

Him being?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 06, 2012, 11:33:54 am
Him being?

Martin


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 06, 2012, 11:48:45 am
What would you say? "Good morning sir. Why, may I ask, are you dogging me in your car and asking me questions about my presence when you have not identified yourself as a person of authority over my behavior?"

Sorry, if I'm a teenager in that situation I'm more likely to follow my fathers advice. More likely I would have told him to "'f-off".


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on July 06, 2012, 12:27:45 pm
Even your F-Off is still not trying to act like a Bad A$$ and threatening him or anyone else with violence.
More like a thug than a innocent young man. And look where his Father and your training got him.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 06, 2012, 12:29:05 pm
Martin GZ

You wish that Zimmeretard will get off....he will be imprisoned. The only question now is for how long.




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 06, 2012, 12:57:30 pm
Even your F-Off is still not trying to act like a Bad A$$ and threatening him or anyone else with violence.
More like a thug than a innocent young man. And look where his Father and your training got him.

Ever been in that situation? It saved my donkey many times. Funny how bullies crumple when faced with resolute defiance. Unless they have a gun and you don't I guess.

What would you have had the kid do?
a. Just keep walking.
b. Call a friend or police
c. Stand your ground
d. Explain that you're sorry for being black and wearing a hoodie in a private walled off community that has been victimized by petty theft and burglaries.

He did the first three.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 06, 2012, 01:19:36 pm
Zimmerman made bail. Well, he didn't. His bigot backers did....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Townsend on July 06, 2012, 01:24:17 pm
This has "Casey Anthony'd".

No matter how it turns out, no one's going to learn anything from this except for the people directly involved.

If the national news agencies stopped bringing it up, it'd be forgotten in da...ooo, look, a pretty bird.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 06, 2012, 01:26:46 pm
He is in a tight position. I don't think his act was that of a racist, but that race was truly a factor. Had he been a white kid wearing a sweatshirt this doesn't happen. Had he followed police advice, its a mere footnote.

A friend of mine was a security guard for 15years and thinks Zimmerman was poorly trained or had no training at all. He thinks his response to the kid was way out of line. Surveillance and contact with authorities would have been the proper behavior. If the community knowingly allowed this guy with little or no training to provide an armed security function, I would hold them responsible as well.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 06, 2012, 01:57:05 pm
At best, Zimmerman was an idiot.

And it is likely worse than that...



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on July 06, 2012, 02:05:46 pm
At best, Zimmerman was an idiot.

And it is likely worse than that...



An idiot with a gun. That never happens.... ::)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 08, 2012, 06:25:29 pm
An idiot with a gun. That never happens.... ::)


One of thousands....perhaps tens of thousands!

Compared to tens of millions with guns who aren't idiots.  And use them responsibly every day...

Two and a half million times a year to successfully defend themselves or others.   (Unlike this clown.)





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 08, 2012, 06:31:45 pm

One of thousands....perhaps tens of thousands!

Compared to tens of millions with guns who aren't idiots.  And use them responsibly every day...

Two and a half million times a year to successfully defend themselves or others.   (Unlike this clown.)





Sort of on the subject...got my CC certificate yesterday.  Yes!  Me!  A left-leaning moderate-to-liberal who doesn't think Obama is out to get our guns and who is a responsible gun owner!

Of course now it's time for the three month wait for TCSO, OSBI and the Feds.  Yay!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 08, 2012, 06:43:14 pm
Sort of on the subject...got my CC certificate yesterday.  Yes!  Me!  A left-leaning moderate-to-liberal who doesn't think Obama is out to get our guns and who is a responsible gun owner!

Of course now it's time for the three month wait for TCSO, OSBI and the Feds.  Yay!

I only had to wait about 3 weeks, and that was around the Big Holidays!  So maybe you won't have to wait so long.

Oh, and congratulations!  You now join the ranks of those who feel they do have a God given right to self-defense (no matter ones belief concerning God...)  The more intelligent, thoughtful people who do this, the better!  (Even if some of them are RWRE....)


As for Obama, I can only take what he has said in the past at face value.  But at least he is smart enough to realize it is a non-starter at this time and place.  Hopefully it will remain that way....







Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 08, 2012, 06:49:23 pm
I only had to wait about 3 weeks, and that was around the Big Holidays!  So maybe you won't have to wait so long.

Oh, and congratulations!  You now join the ranks of those who feel they do have a God given right to self-defense (no matter ones belief concerning God...)  The more intelligent, thoughtful people who do this, the better!  (Even if some of them are RWRE....)


As for Obama, I can only take what he has said in the past at face value.  But at least he is smart enough to realize it is a non-starter at this time and place.  Hopefully it will remain that way....







A God given right to self defense for sure. But I don't remember any scriptures relating to guns.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on July 08, 2012, 07:14:28 pm
But I don't remember any scriptures relating to guns.

Might have something to do with the fact that the scriptures were written before gunpowder was invented by the Chinese.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 08, 2012, 07:26:49 pm
A God given right to self defense for sure. But I don't remember any scriptures relating to guns.


None that I have found either.  But what is appropriate is the use of the best means available at any given point in time for the history of the world.  400,000 years ago, that was a rock.  Today it is a Sig Sauer, .40.  Or Glock.  Or my "old guy" personal favorite - 1911A1, .45 auto.  (If it was good enough for the worlds "Greatest Generation" to help win WWII, it is plenty good for me!)  100 years from now, it may be a ray gun or a personal particle accelerator.


And if you believe in the idea that your life IS a God given gift, then you therefore must believe that it is worth defending by whatever 'best method' is available, and if you don't use that best available method, then you are belittling that gift, and it's giver.  Not to mention short changing yourself, your family, and friends who are all affected at least somewhat adversely should the worst happen to you.

If all I had was a rock or a stick, that is what I would use.  Luckily, I can afford just a little bit better.


Way off in otherville - ever notice how in the Bourne Identity (2002 version), the Professor's gun changes from a Walther P5C to a CS 100 when seen in the snow?






Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 08, 2012, 07:33:42 pm
A God given right to self defense for sure. But I don't remember any scriptures relating to guns.

yep, so back then, the playing field was level.  Nobody had guns.

However now, an intruder may or may not have a firearm.  And even so, the Castle Doctrine states I can still use lethal force in defending my home if I have a reasonable suspicion that intruder is in the residence by force and intends to use force or violence, whether or not that individual has a firearm.

I have a 66 year old mother who is disabled.  I want to know that I'm covered if some dumbass comes walking in my home intent on doing harm to her or myself.  I also want to have that same feeling of security when I'm wheeling her around to places here and there around town, knowing that I have the Bersa on my right hip.

As my instructor yesterday said...he hopes none of us ever has to discharge a weapon for any other reason than for target practice at the range.  I'm by no means a gun freak but I don't wish to bring a knife to gunfight.  That's for sure.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on July 08, 2012, 07:55:55 pm
100 years from now, it may be a ray gun or a personal particle accelerator.

This guy has the t-shirt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski

Hoss, I prefer the knife:

(http://nerdapproved.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/knife_gun.jpg)



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 08, 2012, 08:01:20 pm
Wow. You guys read way more into that remark than I intended. Why is it that you both feel compelled to make such intricate defenses of what everyone pretty much agrees upon, that one has a right to defend ones life against the aggression of others? Does adding the words "with a gun" suddenly trigger some Manchurian Candidate response?

The bible often speaks of turning the other cheek, let the first among you without sin cast the first stone, etc. But of course they didn't have the NRA to 'splain reality to them, eh? My 82 year old mom now is fearful of every cashier, stockboy, dishwasher and laborer because some nut helping her get her CC license told her these type folks have all formed some kind of loosely knit, nefarious criminal organzation that watches customers, steals their credit card numbers and watches to see who hides their guns in their car trunks before entering retail stores so they can break in and steal them while they shop. A strong argument against storeowners asking for no guns in their stores I guess. Kind of like the rube goldberg story the NRA passed around to go after the attorney general.

Just pulling the trigger dontcha' know. :D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 08, 2012, 08:08:53 pm
Might have something to do with the fact that the scriptures were written before gunpowder was invented by the Chinese.

Ah, had the Jews discovered gunpowder first. What a different world. Oy vay.

They not only invented it but I saw the other day they made a barrage weapon of rocket mounted arrows that worked quite well.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 08, 2012, 08:14:06 pm
Wow. You guys read way more into that remark than I intended. Why is it that you both feel compelled to make such intricate defenses of what everyone pretty much agrees upon, that one has a right to defend ones life against the aggression of others? Does adding the words "with a gun" suddenly trigger some Manchurian Candidate response?

The bible often speaks of turning the other cheek, let the first among you without sin cast the first stone, etc. But of course they didn't have the NRA to 'splain reality to them, eh? My 82 year old mom now is fearful of every cashier, stockboy, dishwasher and laborer because some nut helping her get her CC license told her these type folks have all formed some kind of loosely knit, nefarious criminal organzation that watches customers, steals their credit card numbers and watches to see who hides their guns in their car trunks before entering retail stores so they can break in and steal them while they shop. A strong argument against storeowners asking for no guns in their stores I guess. Kind of like the rube goldberg story the NRA passed around to go after the attorney general.

Just pulling the trigger dontcha' know. :D

Which is why I'll never be part of the NRA.  They spread misinformation to promote their own agenda.

Why is it that CC license holder = NRA member in most people's eyes?  I know of at least one other forum member who thinks the same as I do.

And my defense wasn't intricate.  I was merely pointing out the comparison you make about no guns and Bible times self defense as it relates to now.  Scriptures has no part in my self defense.  Self defense does.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 08, 2012, 08:17:35 pm
This guy has the t-shirt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski

Hoss, I prefer the knife:

(http://nerdapproved.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/knife_gun.jpg)



I wonder if 2A has one of those.  If not, I'll see if cheaperthandirt does.   ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 08, 2012, 08:27:49 pm
Seriously, I only made the Bible reference because H used the phrase "God given right" in the same discussion as guns. Nothing more. No political statement, no anti gun statement, nothing. It seemed incongrous to me. The God I am familiar with isn't a gun kind of deity. Swords, spears, rocks, burning pits, yeah but only for those really bad Egyptians and Romans. But man, H, did you go off or what?

As far as safety, I'm still skeptical that guns are the answer for me. Mass murderers like the Manson clan didn't seem to need them. No amount of guns in the hands of the Norwegian murderer would have changed the odds. He picked them off from afar. Kennedy had lots of gun carrying agents nearby. The odds of any of you ever seeing a door crashing, gun carrying crazy is really pretty low. I actually walked in on a robbery at a convenience store and walked away from same without any need of a gun. It would have complicated the situation actually. But, I understand the law, the fear, the attraction and the rationale for those who do want them. Not a batttle I am interested in.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 08, 2012, 08:42:42 pm
Wow. You guys read way more into that remark than I intended. Why is it that you both feel compelled to make such intricate defenses of what everyone pretty much agrees upon, that one has a right to defend ones life against the aggression of others? Does adding the words "with a gun" suddenly trigger some Manchurian Candidate response?

The bible often speaks of turning the other cheek, let the first among you without sin cast the first stone, etc. But of course they didn't have the NRA to 'splain reality to them, eh? My 82 year old mom now is fearful of every cashier, stockboy, dishwasher and laborer because some nut helping her get her CC license told her these type folks have all formed some kind of loosely knit, nefarious criminal organzation that watches customers, steals their credit card numbers and watches to see who hides their guns in their car trunks before entering retail stores so they can break in and steal them while they shop. A strong argument against storeowners asking for no guns in their stores I guess. Kind of like the rube goldberg story the NRA passed around to go after the attorney general.

Just pulling the trigger dontcha' know. :D


I wasn't defending - just explaining the rationale.  It is not really for you so much as any others who might randomly be surfing by and read the thread.  General enlightenment for the masses, and all that...


As for the stock boys...well, it certainly isn't every one.  Or even very many of them.  There have been isolated incidences and the idea she might get caught up in one of those is the fear she has.  You look at it from an entirely different perspective, so don't be too hard on her.  The "weaker" one feels, the more fearful one becomes.

It has been decades since I carried a gun on any kind of regular basis, but the sister and brother in law of guy I work with were murdered in New Mexico at the Cracker Barrel, and burned in their RV (big news a couple years ago).  I was in very casual process of getting concealed carry, but accelerated the process due to similarities with those people (same age, same type of travel preferences, same paths on some trips, etc.)  So, I got serious and finished it up.  While no guarantee, there are at least somewhat better odds of being able to defend myself.  In past, I would not have thought about it that much, but since Governor Brewer in Arizona was too busy worrying about illegal aliens than about the convicted murderer's in her prison system, I figured I better help myself, since the scum that did this are younger, stronger, more agile, and extremely violent - IOW, I need all the "edge" I can get.  Your mother probably worries about that stuff, too.


And the criminal organizations aren't the loosely knit...they are well organized.  


As for God given right - I said that was one of self defense, without even mentioning a gun - it applies to any means available and/or necessary.  If I went to a pistol fight, I want an RPG and 100 yards between us - something appropriate to the threat.... I will use teeth if I have to, though.  Luckily, in spite of advanced age, and a long history of enjoying a lot of Coca-Cola and Dr. Pepper, I still have all my own!!  And the sharp points I filed on them make a pretty good weapon!  (Just kidding...)













Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on July 08, 2012, 08:47:26 pm
The God I am familiar with isn't a gun kind of deity. Swords, spears, rocks, burning pits, yeah but only for those really bad Egyptians and Romans.

I don't see your statements or positions as that big a deal except that the Bible was written a LONG time ago.  Basic morals etc still apply but references to any kind of technology are obviously dated.  I wonder what the Bible would look like if it were written recently.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 08, 2012, 08:54:33 pm
Seriously, I only made the Bible reference because H used the phrase "God given right" in the same discussion as guns. Nothing more. No political statement, no anti gun statement, nothing. It seemed incongrous to me. The God I am familiar with isn't a gun kind of deity. Swords, spears, rocks, burning pits, yeah but only for those really bad Egyptians and Romans. But man, H, did you go off or what?

As far as safety, I'm still skeptical that guns are the answer for me. Mass murderers like the Manson clan didn't seem to need them. No amount of guns in the hands of the Norwegian murderer would have changed the odds. He picked them off from afar. Kennedy had lots of gun carrying agents nearby. The odds of any of you ever seeing a door crashing, gun carrying crazy is really pretty low. I actually walked in on a robbery at a convenience store and walked away from same without any need of a gun. It would have complicated the situation actually. But, I understand the law, the fear, the attraction and the rationale for those who do want them. Not a batttle I am interested in.


And that's fine and I have zero problem with your POV on it.  Unlike many I know, I won't try and convert someone who wishes not to use firearms for SD to use them.  It's a personal choice.  I hope I NEVER have to use it for the reason I state.  I however do know of people who HAVE had to use it (aside from the member on the forum whom we know has used it) that were close enough to me to change my mind.  And it was recently.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 08, 2012, 08:55:14 pm
I don't see your statements or positions as that big a deal except that the Bible was written a LONG time ago.  Basic morals etc still apply but references to any kind of technology are obviously dated.  I wonder what the Bible would look like if it were written recently.

Probably would have a bunch of 'yos' and 'dawg' and 'sup' in it.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 08, 2012, 09:43:40 pm
I don't see your statements or positions as that big a deal except that the Bible was written a LONG time ago.  Basic morals etc still apply but references to any kind of technology are obviously dated.  I wonder what the Bible would look like if it were written recently.


Ask Mitt....170 years or so ago is relatively recent...




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on July 09, 2012, 08:05:10 am
Speaking of Bibles. Does the Koran mention guns or bombs? I have never read it, but I'm sure it probably has some pretty pictures.  ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 12:15:53 pm
"little hero complex" ....oh the irony: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18881.msg245057#msg245057
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/07/12/zimmerman.fdle.lab.reports.pdf



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 12:30:47 pm
(http://www.makoweabc.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/bunny-pancake.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 12:45:20 pm
(http://www.makoweabc.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/bunny-pancake.jpg)

Over your head?

Why just yesterday you were using an example of applying SYG to "save" a potential "victim"....and damn if today the dense FBI report calls GEEZEE not a racist but a malcontent with a "little hero complex"....exactly the same idea I threw in your direction. Too many people standing around waiting to be 15 minute heroes.

doodoohead?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 12:50:00 pm
Over your head?

Why just yesterday you were using an example of applying SYG to "save" a potential "victim"....and damn if today the dense FBI report calls GEEZEE not a racist but a malcontent with a "little hero complex"....exactly the same idea I threw in your direction. Too many people standing around waiting to be 15 minute heroes.

doodoohead?

Why don’t you summarize that instead of posting a 15 page report no one has the time to read?

Secondly, are you going to simply step over a woman being raped in a parking garage and say: “Sucks to be you!”?



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 12:55:34 pm
Why don’t you summarize that instead of posting a 15 page report no one has the time to read?

Secondly, are you going to simply step over a woman being raped in a parking garage and say: “Sucks to be you!”?



911 and butt the hell out.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on July 12, 2012, 12:56:44 pm
....and damn if today the dense FBI report calls GEEZEE not a racist but a malcontent with a "little hero complex"....



I looked through your .pdf and it just seemed to be ballistics data.   Can you link to the psychologist report stating "little hero complex"?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 01:11:15 pm
911 and butt the hell out.

So, just allow someone else to sustain an attack and possibly be killed when help may be 10 minutes away and you can possibly save them?

Hope you can live with that if you are ever in such a position and the worst case scenario happens. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 01:17:48 pm
So, just allow someone else to sustain an attack and possibly be killed when help may be 10 minutes away and you can possibly save them?

Hope you can live with that if you are ever in such a position and the worst case scenario happens. 

Hey, you might be killing a zygote in the process.... :'(

Yes it's none of my business. That's for the police. That's why we pay them. That's why we have taxes. It is not your duty nor mine to judge what's taking place and to respond. Sad fact but true.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 01:19:23 pm
I looked through your .pdf and it just seemed to be ballistics data.   Can you link to the psychologist report stating "little hero complex"?
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/george-zimmerman-fbi-interviews-689452

"the facts remain that IF Mr. Zimmerman had waited in his vehicle for the police office, as instructed' none of this would have happened!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on July 12, 2012, 01:22:47 pm

Yes it's none of my business. That's for the police. That's why we pay them. That's why we have taxes. It is not your duty nor mine to judge what's taking place and to respond. Sad fact but true.


And that sentiment is why we will never agree.   


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 01:24:39 pm
I looked through your .pdf and it just seemed to be ballistics data.   Can you link to the psychologist report stating "little hero complex"?

Not a psychologist report and not even an FBI analyst, but rather the investigator from the Sanford PD which everyone has tried to portray as a rinky-dink cop shop.

Quote
In an April interview with two FBI agents, Christopher Serino, the Sanford Police Department’s lead investigator on the Martin killing, said that he believed Zimmerman’s actions “were not based on Martin’s skin color rather based on his attire, the total circumstances of the encounter and the previous burglary suspects in the community.”

Serino also “described Zimmerman as overzealous and as having a ‘little hero complex,
’ but not as a racist.” Noting that he had spoken with Zimmerman on numerous occasions and “feels like he knows him fairly well,” Serino said that he believes Zimmerman did not want to be a cop because “cops have a bad reputation and are bullies, but he wants to be a judge.” Serino added that Zimmerman was a “soft guy.”

What are Serino’s creds again, and why is information like this allowed to leak to the media if someone is to receive a fair trial in front of his peers?

I don’t recall fair trial by the media to be Constitutional.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 01:28:26 pm

And that sentiment is why we will never agree.   

So, you don't think calling the police is the right thing to do? Vigilante Men!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 01:32:33 pm
So, you don't think calling the police is the right thing to do? Vigilante Men!

Of course it’s the right thing to do.  But is it right to allow an attack to continue when you could have saved someone from grave harm or death while you wait for the PD to arrive?  That’s not being a vigilante or taking justice into your own hands.  It’s not about carrying out vengeance on an attacker, it’s about saving someone else.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 01:33:48 pm
Not a psychologist report and not even an FBI analyst, but rather the investigator from the Sanford PD which everyone has tried to portray as a rinky-dink cop shop.

What are Serino’s creds again, and why is information like this allowed to leak to the media if someone is to receive a fair trial in front of his peers?

I don’t recall fair trial by the media to be Constitutional.

What? It wasn't allowed to leak...IT'S PUBLIC INFO....The FBI interviews released on Thursday were part of a mound of pretrial discovery records made public by Special Prosecutor Angela Corey.

There will be a fair trial and I will be able to live with whatever the verdict becomes....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 01:34:58 pm
Of course it’s the right thing to do.  But is it right to allow an attack to continue when you could have saved someone from grave harm or death while you wait for the PD to arrive?  That’s not being a vigilante or taking justice into your own hands.  It’s not about carrying out vengeance on an attacker, it’s about saving someone else.

Hmmm....kinda like why you feel it's necessary to govern over a women's right to choose? Well, this time you're consistent.

Without knowing what has transpired, it's not up to you.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on July 12, 2012, 01:47:24 pm
Hmmm....kinda like why you feel it's necessary to govern over a women's right to choose? Well, this time you're consistent.

Without knowing what has transpired, it's not up to you.

Personally it isn't my place to judge what a woman does.   I tend to lean libertarian more and more as I get older.   I tend to believe that we do have an innate duty to help our fellow man by through providing a modicum of health care, food, or protection.   If that involves (in the case above) interrupting a rape and potentially having to shoot the rapist then so be it.  I don't want to shoot someone, nor do I go our looking for fights.   


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 02:20:59 pm
Personally it isn't my place to judge what a woman does.   I tend to lean libertarian more and more as I get older.   I tend to believe that we do have an innate duty to help our fellow man by through providing a modicum of health care, food, or protection.   If that involves (in the case above) interrupting a rape and potentially having to shoot the rapist then so be it.  I don't want to shoot someone, nor do I go our looking for fights.   

Agreed in totality. 



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 02:22:41 pm
Hmmm....kinda like why you feel it's necessary to govern over a women's right to choose? Well, this time you're consistent.

Without knowing what has transpired, it's not up to you.

You ignore what I’ve said repeatedly:  In spite of the fact I think abortion is an abomination, I also believe it’s a moral issue between a woman, her doctor, her conscience, and her sense of higher power.  I don’t believe the job of government is to legislate morality.

It’s also genocide against the poor, minorities, and future liberals.  But as long as you are okay with that, it’s all that matters to me.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on July 12, 2012, 02:47:44 pm
You ignore what I’ve said repeatedly:  In spite of the fact I think abortion is an abomination, I also believe it’s a moral issue between a woman, her doctor, her conscience, and her sense of higher power.  I don’t believe the job of government is to legislate morality.

It’s also genocide against the poor, minorities, and future liberals.  But as long as you are okay with that, it’s all that matters to me.


YOU get back in that box!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 02:48:24 pm
Agreed in totality. 



I just wonder how you would react if it were a black woman, a Muslim woman (draped in religious dress), or even if it were a gay rape. I just wonder....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 03:12:39 pm
I just wonder how you would react if it were a black woman, a Muslim woman (draped in religious dress), or even if it were a gay rape. I just wonder....

The same as I would anyone else including you.  And if you were being attacked in a parking lot and someone else intervened on your behalf, I’d hope the first thing out of your mouth isn’t: “You jackass!  You should have called 911 and minded your own bloody business!"

I don’t view humanity through different lenses.  All humans are the same in my book and I tend to look at what is similar, not different in my fellow man or woman. 

I admit, one of my short-falls is I don’t have much patience for people who thrive on making differences an issue in discussion or who seek special privilege or to profit off making differences an issue. 



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on July 12, 2012, 03:24:36 pm

I don’t view humanity through different lenses.  All humans are the same in my book and I tend to look at what is similar, not different in my fellow man or woman. 


Except for the Dutch.  They are pale, have squinty little eyes and are up to no good.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 03:25:12 pm
The same as I would anyone else including you.  And if you were being attacked in a parking lot and someone else intervened on your behalf, I’d hope the first thing out of your mouth isn’t: “You jackass!  You should have called 911 and minded your own bloody business!"

I purposely avoid getting myself in these type of predicaments. Constantly on the SELF defense.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 12, 2012, 03:54:18 pm
911 and butt the hell out.


Now THAT is truly sad.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 03:56:37 pm

Now THAT is truly sad.



I'm not saying if there's a burglary and beating in the street below me I would remain silent.

Edit: I am not Penn State.... >:(


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 12, 2012, 09:46:53 pm
http://www.heartrescuenow.com/

what would an interactive video of stand your ground instruction be like?

Odds are very remote you'd encounter a rape or an act of violence.

Being a hero in the case of a medical emergency is much more likely.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2012, 10:20:23 pm
http://www.heartrescuenow.com/

what would an interactive video of stand your ground instruction be like?

Odds are very remote you'd encounter a rape or an act of violence.

Being a hero in the case of a medical emergency is much more likely.

And good to be prepared in either case.  Reminds me, I need to get my CPR training updated.  Thanks for the reminder.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on July 13, 2012, 06:24:40 am
http://www.heartrescuenow.com/

what would an interactive video of stand your ground instruction be like?

Odds are very remote you'd encounter a rape or an act of violence.

Being a hero in the case of a medical emergency is much more likely.

Why only be prepared for that?    Seems like a good boyscout would be prepared for almost anything.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 13, 2012, 06:28:38 am
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqWRaAF6_WY[/youtube]



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Gaspar on July 13, 2012, 11:49:42 am
http://www.heartrescuenow.com/

what would an interactive video of stand your ground instruction be like?

Odds are very remote you'd encounter a rape or an act of violence.

Being a hero in the case of a medical emergency is much more likely.

I think you will find that most folks with the presence of heart to obtain a Conceal and Carry license are the same folks who keep their CPR and first responder credentials up to date.  In many cases you get to see both violence and medical emergency, and in the case of the former, the latter is likely to be required.  A conceal license does not give you the right to kill, it gives you the right to stop violence or death using force.  If you intend to shoulder that burden, it is only responsible that you also have the skills to render aid when necessary.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 16, 2012, 11:30:58 am
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-os-george-zimmerman-jail-phone-calls-20120716,0,6274019.story

wish they'd get this tried and get it over... Floreeduh.

Nuts don't fall far from the tree...GZees mommy sounds like a proud woman. ::)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on July 16, 2012, 12:23:21 pm
A relative of Zimmerman's claims that he molested her for 10 years. And that his family was racist.


Let's line up what we know about his past and personality. Committed perjury, was charged with domestic violence, charged with hitting a cop, was accused of racially harassing a coworker and now a being a molester. What a guy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...von/56253714/1


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 16, 2012, 12:29:22 pm
A relative of Zimmerman's claims that he molested her for 10 years. And that his family was racist.


Let's line up what we know about his past and personality. Committed perjury, was charged with domestic violence, charged with hitting a cop, was accused of racially harassing a coworker and now a being a molester. What a guy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...von/56253714/1

Let’s see release all this to the media, so we can assure he gets a fair trial.   ::)



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 16, 2012, 12:38:03 pm
A relative of Zimmerman's claims that he molested her for 10 years. And that his family was racist.


Let's line up what we know about his past and personality. Committed perjury, was charged with domestic violence, charged with hitting a cop, was accused of racially harassing a coworker and now a being a molester. What a guy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...von/56253714/1

At least he doesn't sell radio advertising...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on July 16, 2012, 12:43:30 pm
At least he doesn't sell radio advertising...

He actually was a used car salesman


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 18, 2012, 03:55:29 pm
Faux News has set up an interview with GeeZee and Hannity. If I were his lawyer I'd have to warn against this.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 18, 2012, 09:06:53 pm
Faux News has set up an interview with GeeZee and Hannity. If I were his lawyer I'd have to warn against this.

I have the same reservations as to the wisdom of it as well.  But I guess they figure if the prosecutor is going to try this in the media by leaking details of the case and witness statements which may not be used at trial, he needs a forum for a rebuttal.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 18, 2012, 09:53:47 pm
I have the same reservations as to the wisdom of it as well.  But I guess they figure if the prosecutor is going to try this in the media by leaking details of the case and witness statements which may not be used at trial, he needs a forum for a rebuttal.

Your are psychotic. Leaking is the wrong wording. Try "made public by law".

Loved this interview which was really just a fund raiser that FOX participated in as sponsor of the "Save Gee Zee" fund.

Looks like Gee Zee kind of appears like he's still confused. Hannity asked him if he had to do this over would he do anything different and Gee Zee said "no." In light of the fact he apologized to Treyvon's parents in the interview the question remains "if you have no regrets, why are you apologizing." And if he was just doing what God wanted him to do, why didn't he leave the gun behind or better yet stay in the vehicle until police got there?

More bizarre behavior.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 19, 2012, 06:14:37 am
Inconsistent, and that will hurt him. But not so bizarre really. He is a pawn caught up in the national divisiveness that Fox foments. They couldn't care less about justice, guilt or humanity. They need this kind of food.

He is sorry for the parents that their son was killed. That doesn't mean he doesn't feel justified in killing him. His lawyer is using Fox to stimulate donations to pay his fees. Its all pretty mercenary.

Conan, the judge/jury decide the trial. Public opinion doesn't. If public opinion mattered....OJ Simpson.  The media have always behaved this way and all the parties involved know their roles.

At least, that's my take.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 19, 2012, 08:36:41 am
Inconsistent, and that will hurt him. But not so bizarre really. He is a pawn caught up in the national divisiveness that Fox foments. They couldn't care less about justice, guilt or humanity. They need this kind of food.

He is sorry for the parents that their son was killed. That doesn't mean he doesn't feel justified in killing him. His lawyer is using Fox to stimulate donations to pay his fees. Its all pretty mercenary.

Conan, the judge/jury decide the trial. Public opinion doesn't. If public opinion mattered....OJ Simpson.  The media have always behaved this way and all the parties involved know their roles.

At least, that's my take.

Um, how do you pick an IMPARTIAL jury, when all the salacious details have been leaked out to the media?  You do remember a right to a fair and speedy trial, don’t you?  Seriously, how do you seat a fair jury when details a judge may rule inadmissible in court, have been heard by potential jurors?  He can say you can’t consider anything you’ve heard outside the court room, but that still doesn’t quash any prejudice toward the case a juror may have by what they have seen and read outside the courtroom.

It’s only since news became entertainment in the 1990’s this has gone on.  When you need to fill 24 hours worth of space instead of a couple of 30 minute newscasts a day, you tend to beat cases like this to death.  Had this happened in the 1970’s or 1980’s I doubt this would have registered on a national scale.

And TTC- psychotic?   Hi Pot!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 19, 2012, 08:39:18 am
Um, how do you pick an IMPARTIAL jury, when all the salacious details have been leaked out to the media?  You do remember a right to a fair and speedy trial, don’t you?  Seriously, how do you seat a fair jury when details a judge may rule inadmissible in court, have been heard by potential jurors?  He can say you can’t consider anything you’ve heard outside the court room, but that still doesn’t quash any prejudice toward the case a juror may have by what they have seen and read outside the courtroom.

And TTC- psychotic?   Hi Pot!

Where Zimmerman will get convicted (and it may be on lesser charges) is that he left the vehicle and pursued him *against the advice of the dispatcher*.  We talked about this at length during my concealed carry course.  He would have been better off to stay in the vehicle.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 19, 2012, 08:44:41 am
Where Zimmerman will get convicted (and it may be on lesser charges) is that he left the vehicle and pursued him *against the advice of the dispatcher*.  We talked about this at length during my concealed carry course.  He would have been better off to stay in the vehicle.

The police dispatcher is not necessarily the final word, but common sense would have dictated stay in your vehicle and keep an eye on the guy.  

The whole: "It was all God's plan,” isn’t going to play well.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 19, 2012, 08:48:04 am
The police dispatcher is not necessarily the final word, but common sense would have dictated stay in your vehicle and keep an eye on the guy.  

The whole: "It was all God's plan,” isn’t going to play well.

We discussed that part of it as well, and how that might play out.  It's not the dispatcher's job description to tell a citizen what to do or not do in that situation, but the fact that the dispatcher did that might make the city liable.  Not saying that myself, but once again, that was discussed in my course.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 19, 2012, 09:20:56 am
Um, how do you pick an IMPARTIAL jury, when all the salacious details have been leaked out to the media?  You do remember a right to a fair and speedy trial, don’t you?  Seriously, how do you seat a fair jury when details a judge may rule inadmissible in court, have been heard by potential jurors?  He can say you can’t consider anything you’ve heard outside the court room, but that still doesn’t quash any prejudice toward the case a juror may have by what they have seen and read outside the courtroom.

It’s only since news became entertainment in the 1990’s this has gone on.  When you need to fill 24 hours worth of space instead of a couple of 30 minute newscasts a day, you tend to beat cases like this to death.  Had this happened in the 1970’s or 1980’s I doubt this would have registered on a national scale.

Nah. Happens all the time and has since the beginning. A jury will be selected and all safeguards will be in place. You must remember the young lady (Hearst) whose videos of bank robbery for the Symbionese Liberation Army were plastered all over TV in the 1970's before her capture and trial. She was tried and no one paid much attention to whining about prejudice then either. Or for the players in the Tate/LaBianca murders. Or Son of Sam from the 60's. You can't just clamp down on speech in this country. Who would watch TV or read newspapers? Who wants a juror who doesn't?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 19, 2012, 09:24:21 am
The police dispatcher is not necessarily the final word, but common sense would have dictated stay in your vehicle and keep an eye on the guy.  

The whole: "It was all God's plan,” isn’t going to play well.

The dispatcher is an officer. They even wear uniforms though they never leave the office. As part of the team, they are trained to give the same or similar advice as an officer on the street would, to retain consistency.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 19, 2012, 09:25:22 am
Nah. Happens all the time and has since the beginning. A jury will be selected and all safeguards will be in place. You must remember the young lady (Hearst) whose videos of bank robbery for the Symbionese Liberation Army were plastered all over TV in the 1970's before her capture and trial. She was tried and no one paid much attention to whining about prejudice then either. Or for the players in the Tate/LaBianca murders. Or Son of Sam from the 60's. You can't just clamp down on speech in this country. Who would watch TV or read newspapers? Who wants a juror who doesn't?
The dispatcher is an officer. They even wear uniforms though they never leave the office. As part of the team, they are trained to give the same or similar advice as an officer on the street would, to retain consistency.

Really?  I have a dispatcher friend who isn't.  Do we know that for sure?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 19, 2012, 09:32:07 am
Really?  I have a dispatcher friend who isn't.  Do we know that for sure?

Conan is correct. They don't have the same authority or street capability but they are generally part of the PD and trained in the same sop's. They are a lower grade. Go online at the COT and peruse the job description.

Last night I watched a historical account of a murder case in another community involving two police officers and a 911 dispatcher. They all work pretty closely with each other apparently and the natural migration from the dispatcher position is to an officer.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 19, 2012, 09:35:00 am
Nah. Happens all the time and has since the beginning. A jury will be selected and all safeguards will be in place. You must remember the young lady (Hearst) whose videos of bank robbery for the Symbionese Liberation Army were plastered all over TV in the 1970's before her capture and trial. She was tried and no one paid much attention to whining about prejudice then either. Or for the players in the Tate/LaBianca murders. Or Son of Sam from the 60's. You can't just clamp down on speech in this country. Who would watch TV or read newspapers? Who wants a juror who doesn't?

The Hearst story was sensational because she was an heir to the Hearst publishing dynasty.  The videos you refer to were still photos of Patty Hearst used to help identify her when she was one of America’s most wanted.  That’s hardly the same as releasing evidence un-related to her case to the media (“my cousin George molested me and was a racist even though I never heard him use epithets"), or the media being caught red-handed selectively editing 911 tapes. 

The Manson murders, of course that was sensational, multiple brutal killings plus several celebs killed.  Again, not all details were made public until the trial.

In terms of being a national story prior to 24/7 news channels, this pales in comparison to the magnitude of the gang-land killings of the 1930’s or either one of the cases you cited.  30 years ago, you’d never have heard the name Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 19, 2012, 10:05:53 am
The Hearst story was sensational because she was an heir to the Hearst publishing dynasty.  The videos you refer to were still photos of Patty Hearst used to help identify her when she was one of America’s most wanted.  That’s hardly the same as releasing evidence un-related to her case to the media (“my cousin George molested me and was a racist even though I never heard him use epithets"), or the media being caught red-handed selectively editing 911 tapes. 

The Manson murders, of course that was sensational, multiple brutal killings plus several celebs killed.  Again, not all details were made public until the trial.

In terms of being a national story prior to 24/7 news channels, this pales in comparison to the magnitude of the gang-land killings of the 1930’s or either one of the cases you cited.  30 years ago, you’d never have heard the name Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman.

I can't agree with you there Conan. Salacious details are always leaked in high profile cases. Sometimes aided by unscrupulous powerful people like Hoover and his FBI. In this case both sides seem to be playing. Hearst newspapers in their heyday were masters at it. Hearst actually murdered his wife's lover and got away with it by using the power of the press. Of course the internet and 24/7 news has magnified that process no denying.

I won't go back through the decades to prove my point as its not so important to me as to you. Those came to mind immediately. I will say, the press did release tons of info on those folks long before trial and the jury pools were indeed poisoned and it makes no difference the severity of their crime or who their parents were. Your point that he can't get a fair trial in this day and age due to the coverage means that no one can since leaks are never going away.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on July 19, 2012, 10:06:01 am
Speaking of Manson. I always thought that his sentence was all for the public. The old, Make a example of him. Kind of like what Hitler, Hussein or Gadhafi would have got here in the U.S. Judicial system. He just plotted the crimes with no blood on his hands and the actual killers are now free citizens. The ones that are still alive.
Plenty of worse crimes are played out everyday and life with "NEVER" parole usually is not what is handed down. So yes I believe that the News and public opinion in that case was the Judge and Jury. Plus him being bat sh!t nuts in Court didn't help any.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 19, 2012, 10:07:47 am
Conan is correct. They don't have the same authority or street capability but they are generally part of the PD and trained in the same sop's. They are a lower grade. Go online at the COT and peruse the job description.

Last night I watched a historical account of a murder case in another community involving two police officers and a 911 dispatcher. They all work pretty closely with each other apparently and the natural migration from the dispatcher position is to an officer.

That may not be the case at every municipal police department.  In fact, with my friend, I'm sure of it.  He is employed by the city and title doesn't include anything police specific.  I've asked him specifically.  He can't even carry without a conceal carry license.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 19, 2012, 10:12:04 am
That may not be the case at every municipal police department.  In fact, with my friend, I'm sure of it.  He is employed by the city and title doesn't include anything police specific.  I've asked him specifically.  He can't even carry without a conceal carry license.

Yeah, this is Tulsa. They do have to wear a uniform here and the training is pretty demanding according to the job description. Nonetheless, when it comes to GZ's trial they will make pretty good witnesses and most people feel he should have followed their advice.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 19, 2012, 10:17:40 am
I will say, the press did release tons of info on those folks long before trial and the jury pools were indeed poisoned and it makes no difference the severity of their crime or who their parents were. Your point that he can't get a fair trial in this day and age due to the coverage means that no one can since leaks are never going away.

The part I emboldened was my original point.

Actually, the vast majority can get a fair trial because most cases are not sensationalized to the point the media looks at their family background, what they ate two hours before the killing, their marital record, interviews with grade school teachers, etc.

Leaks to the media do impinge on someone’s right to a trial in front of a fair and impartial jury, especially when a prosecutor leaks information which they know will help form some sort of prejudice.  I believe the right to a fair trial is far more important than a nosy public’s right to “public records”. 

Why do we really need to know any of the facts in the Martin/Zimmerman case until after it’s been heard at trial, other than being nosy?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 19, 2012, 10:51:55 am
Speaking of Manson. I always thought that his sentence was all for the public. The old, Make a example of him. Kind of like what Hitler, Hussein or Gadhafi would have got here in the U.S. Judicial system. He just plotted the crimes with no blood on his hands and the actual killers are now free citizens. The ones that are still alive.
Plenty of worse crimes are played out everyday and life with "NEVER" parole usually is not what is handed down. So yes I believe that the News and public opinion in that case was the Judge and Jury. Plus him being bat sh!t nuts in Court didn't help any.


Charlie got the death penalty.  It was changed to life when death penalty struck down the first time.

Helter Skelter!!



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 19, 2012, 11:19:09 am
Of course the internet and 24/7 news has magnified that process no denying.

Go ahead. Blame Al Gore.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on July 19, 2012, 11:33:21 am
Go ahead. Blame Al Gore.

Now we know why Prez Obama started the you didn't do it mess.  He wanted to make sure that everyone knew that AlGore couldn't be blamed because he couldn't have invented the internet.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 19, 2012, 11:34:55 am
The part I emboldened was my original point.

Actually, the vast majority can get a fair trial because most cases are not sensationalized to the point the media looks at their family background, what they ate two hours before the killing, their marital record, interviews with grade school teachers, etc.

Leaks to the media do impinge on someone’s right to a trial in front of a fair and impartial jury, especially when a prosecutor leaks information which they know will help form some sort of prejudice.  I believe the right to a fair trial is far more important than a nosy public’s right to “public records”. 

Why do we really need to know any of the facts in the Martin/Zimmerman case until after it’s been heard at trial, other than being nosy?

Why is People magazine or Tulsa People even published?  ;)

Even local cases are now sensationalized to the point that one wonders who can get a fair trial at all. Its embarrassing to me to read about personal stuff or see family members and friends, of accused and prosecuted, interviewed on TV when you know the case hasn't even been scheduled. But that's how freedom of speech works. Once you strangle the press or more accurately, restrain them from doing what competition in a free society impels them to do, you lose some freedoms along the way. I'll agree there seemed to be a bit more integrity of the press back in the 40's/50's but that was a pretty repressive time period.

Our savior in law is the power of jury selection and the instructions to the jurors. I took my instructions seriously and was not popular on the jury I served on. It wasn't high profile but it became personal to us. My wife had the same experience in a civil case of racial discrimination. Some stuff just couldn't be considered.

Its so popular to hate the press and some of it is well deserved. But usually people only hate them when they tell them facts they don't want to hear. I just received an unsolicited e-mail describing the memoirs of a North Vietnam general who said our press during the war gave them victory when they were days away from surrender after TET and the bombing of Hanoi. He said they were ready to give up when they saw that the press had turned the American people against the war. It heartened them. No verification that the story was true and accurate. None. Media cannot get away with that. Even if true, the general's interpretation was so way off (the press reported the story, the American people were stunned to find out their general's had lied to them about the strength and resolve of the NV. That turned the popular opinion. Blame LBJ and the generals, not the messenger.)

Whoever sent me that hates the press and is willing accept a lower grade, unsubstantiated version of media.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on July 19, 2012, 11:36:21 am
News in Photos
July 19, 2012
Sean Hannity Unable To Stop Smiling While Talking About Shooting Death Of Black Teen

(http://o.onionstatic.com/images/17/17529/original/600.jpg)

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sean-hannity-unable-to-stop-smiling-while-talking,28827/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on July 19, 2012, 12:49:07 pm
Whoever sent me that hates the press and is willing accept a lower grade, unsubstantiated version of media.

It would be nice if they'd cover substantive stories, though. Don't get me wrong, I don't think there was anything wrong with reporting on this particular mess in the first place, a mess was being made after all. I'd rather read about tax policy and development subsidies so I can know more about how my country is being looted, though. I think we're all already aware that murder happens in this country, sometimes due to racial animosity, so harping on it seems unnecessary. (although occasional updates when major events in the case happen are welcome, of course)

The thing is that our media has always been muckraking. It's what they do now, it's what they did back in 1776, just at a slower pace. We got spoiled by 20 years of journalism that wasn't mainly muckraking and parroting whatever talking points the political parties were on that day.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 19, 2012, 01:21:56 pm
It would be nice if they'd cover substantive stories, though. Don't get me wrong, I don't think there was anything wrong with reporting on this particular mess in the first place, a mess was being made after all. I'd rather read about tax policy and development subsidies so I can know more about how my country is being looted, though. I think we're all already aware that murder happens in this country, sometimes due to racial animosity, so harping on it seems unnecessary. (although occasional updates when major events in the case happen are welcome, of course)

The thing is that our media has always been muckraking. It's what they do now, it's what they did back in 1776, just at a slower pace. We got spoiled by 20 years of journalism that wasn't mainly muckraking and parroting whatever talking points the political parties were on that day.

I agree. Its hard to cover stories that the mainstream don't understand and don't have the patience to learn. And, I don't think the best and brightest are emigrating to journalism. The best looking with the brightest smile, yes.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on July 19, 2012, 01:53:51 pm
AM....advertising makes the world go round. Why do you think campaigns are so awkward?

It's gotten pathetic, but a necessary evil.

I recall when doctors were prohibited from advertising. Then look what happened.

Mister Zimmerman will get a fair trial.

Wait and we will see.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on October 08, 2012, 01:33:18 pm
The shooter "tried to retreat" before shooting (as opposed to fleeing or anything else that would have removed any sense of danger).
Mind you he was "retreating" with his gun drawn and aimed, just before opening fire.


MOBILE, Ala. (AP) — A University of South Alabama freshman was running through the streets nearly naked, screaming obscenities and claiming he was on a “spiritual quest” not long before he was killed by a campus police officer, two acquaintances said Monday.

Authorities have said 18-year-old Gil Collar of Wetumpka assumed a “fighting stance” and chased a police officer before the officer shot him around 1:30 a.m. outside the campus police station. Police say Collar was naked when he was shot. His mother, Bonnie Smith Collar, told The Associated Press that she was told by someone involved in the investigation that surveillance video shows Collar never touched the officer.

School officials have said nothing to indicate he was armed. Campus officers typically also carry a baton and pepper spray, though university officials refused to say whether the officer who shot Collar was carrying either.

The university said the officer heard a bang on a window at campus police headquarters and went outside to investigate. The officer tried to retreat numerous times to defuse the situation before opening fire, the university said in a news release.

Collar’s mother said she has received conflicting information about what might have happened before the shooting and declined to discuss it. But she asked people to withhold judgment until all the evidence comes out.
“Whatever caused the incident was something that made him act not in his normal personality,” she said.

Others agreed the actions were out of character for the normally quiet and reserved Collar, whom friends described as a popular and good-looking high school wrestler with a slight build, standing 5-foot-7 and 135 pounds. Collar wasn’t someone to make enemies and even befriended his opponents on the wrestling mat, said his high school wrestling coach, Jeff Glass.
Collar wasn’t known as a troublemaker and had only two minor scrapes with the law, according to court records: a speeding ticket and a citation for being a minor in possession of three cigarettes in March. He paid a $25 fine for the tobacco possession.

However, two people who knew Collar said he was out of sorts and appeared intoxicated from alcohol or something else the night he was killed. He was screaming profanities in the street and running around wearing only his boxer shorts, said South Alabama student Bronte Harber, 18, of Columbus, Ohio.
Sarah Hay, 18, of Dallas, said she saw Collar shirtless outside her on-campus residence shortly before Harber encountered him. Collar was the loudest of a group of four or five young men, she said, and some of the others were trying to get him to calm down.
Neither Harber nor Hay said they witnessed the confrontation between Collar and the officer.

A candlelight vigil is planned for 6 p.m. Tuesday at Wetumpka High School. Collar’s mother said funeral arrangements have not yet been made yet.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on October 08, 2012, 01:57:15 pm
Do you not know how to start a new topic?  This is about as related to the Trayvon Martin case as it is the 2012 presidential election.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on October 08, 2012, 02:04:00 pm
Do you not know how to start a new topic?  This is about as related to the Trayvon Martin case as it is the 2012 presidential election.

Stop it!  Don't you know I'm the forum police around here?

 ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on October 08, 2012, 02:07:14 pm
Stop it!  Don't you know I'm the forum police around here?

 ;)

Sorry Ang, I just wanted to be the big shot, just once...

(http://parkercountyblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/barney-fife-lawman.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on October 08, 2012, 10:55:11 pm
This is about as related to the Trayvon Martin case as it is the 2012 presidential election.

Here, let me adjust the focus...

The law of self-defense is at its core about reasonableness. If a person reasonably perceives a serious threat of harm, and uses reasonable force to meet that threat, the law justifies even deadly force, and it does so even if it turns out that the perceived threat was illusory.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/opinion/bellin-stand-your-ground-law/index.html
People have differing views of what's reasonable and, as a consequence, self-defense laws (which vary by jurisdiction) have always attempted to further define the concept. Until very recently, Florida's definition of reasonableness, as in many states, incorporated a longstanding principle, the "duty to retreat."

This principle required that someone who found themselves in a violent confrontation had to try to defuse the situation and retreat "to the wall" before resorting to deadly force.
In other words, deadly force was only permitted as a last resort. The basic idea was simple: If more people backed down, retreated or stepped aside, fewer people would be killed.

The "duty to retreat" also made it easier for prosecutors to prove that a killing was not in self-defense. The facts that can be proven are often murky (particularly when of the two people who know what happened, one is the defendant and the other is dead) and prosecutors could often, by pointing to a defendant's failure to retreat, obtain a conviction even without establishing the precise facts.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 09, 2012, 11:55:19 am
Speaking of Manson. I always thought that his sentence was all for the public. The old, Make a example of him. Kind of like what Hitler, Hussein or Gadhafi would have got here in the U.S. Judicial system. He just plotted the crimes with no blood on his hands and the actual killers are now free citizens. The ones that are still alive.
Plenty of worse crimes are played out everyday and life with "NEVER" parole usually is not what is handed down. So yes I believe that the News and public opinion in that case was the Judge and Jury. Plus him being bat sh!t nuts in Court didn't help any.

He was sentenced to death because he was the one who directed the activities.  All of them got the death penalty which was commuted by the CA Supreme Court.

Worse crimes?  Yeah, quite possibly...but those were fairly hardcore.  Plus the follow on murders.  They all deserved to die - but didn't.





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on October 09, 2012, 02:33:13 pm
Maybe this is clearer:


Piers Morgan, anchor of CNN's "Piers Morgan tonight", is weighing in on the death of University of South Alabama freshman Gil Collar calling the shooting, "another gun, another senseless loss of life".

Morgan spoke of the case in Monday evening's edition of "Only in America", admitting there were numerous unanswered questions, but stating that he knew "a naked, 5 foot 7 inch, 135 pound 18-year-old college freshman does not pose a significant risk to a police officer to justify being shot dead."

The CNN host said he did not believe the Collar shooting would gain the nationwide attention of cases like that of Treyvon Martin or the Aurora, Colorado movie theater massacre. But he added, "Gilbert Collar could have been my son. He could have been your son."


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on October 09, 2012, 02:35:27 pm
Maybe this is clearer:


Piers Morgan, anchor of CNN's "Piers Morgan tonight", is weighing in on the death of University of South Alabama freshman Gil Collar calling the shooting, "another gun, another senseless loss of life".

Morgan spoke of the case in Monday evening's edition of "Only in America", admitting there were numerous unanswered questions, but stating that he knew "a naked, 5 foot 7 inch, 135 pound 18-year-old college freshman does not pose a significant risk to a police officer to justify being shot dead."

The CNN host said he did not believe the Collar shooting would gain the nationwide attention of cases like that of Treyvon Martin or the Aurora, Colorado movie theater massacre. But he added, "Gilbert Collar could have been my son. He could have been your son."


Senseless loss of life is about as close as these two cases come.  Otherwise polar opposites.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on October 09, 2012, 02:55:07 pm
Senseless loss of life is about as close as these two cases come.  Otherwise polar opposites.

Im inclined to disagree.
Apparently at no time during the 20-minute videotaped confrontation did university police officer Trevis Austin (nor the other officer present) attempt to retreat back into their office to obtain any number of less-lethal weapons they normally carry.  In fact, the only mention of a "retreat" to de-escallate the situation came from the university-prepared press release the day after the killing.

Zimmerman, likewise, ignored his legal obligation to retreat, advanced on Martin (gun in hand) and killed him, also claiming self-defense.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on October 09, 2012, 03:27:47 pm

Zimmerman, likewise, ignored his legal obligation to retreat, advanced on Martin (gun in hand) and killed him, also claiming self-defense.

That's not at all what the evidence suggests nor what credible eye witness accounts said, and we've trampled this to the ground.  Zimmerman pursued Martin, was returning to his vehicle when he was confronted by Martin saying "What the love is your problem?" and ostensibly threatened to kill Zimmerman as he pounded his head into the pavement and reached for Zimmerman's gun at which point Zimmerman had a legit fear for his own life.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Vashta Nerada on October 11, 2012, 06:53:32 pm
Quote
Video Shows That Student Was Naked, But Calm Before He Was Shot

MOBILE, Ala. (October 11, 2012)--A video of the shooting of a naked University of South Alabama student shows the teenager with his arms outstretched and his palms open before a campus police officer fired.
The Mobile County Sheriff's Department played the security video for media Thursday.
A camera outside the University of South Alabama police station recorded the scene moments before Gil Collar, 18, was shot to death early Saturday morning.
Police say Collar had taken LSD.
The video shows Collar walking slowly toward a campus police station door twice, and then pounding on it violently.
An officer emerged with gun drawn and the two moved into the yard with the student approaching the officer.
The shooting occurred less than 30 seconds after the officer went outside.
A second officer arrived, and the two officers wrestled with the dying student and handcuffed him.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on November 29, 2012, 09:51:37 pm
Florida man pleads not guilty to shooting teen to death over loud music

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/28/15513847-florida-man-pleads-not-guilty-to-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

"Supposedly his statement was, 'I just fired at these kids.' I don't know if he knew that he struck anyone in the vehicle. The next morning, I guess when they woke up in the hotel and saw on the news that someone was killed, that's when they got in their car and fled."

2014...the year of gun control....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on November 30, 2012, 09:04:37 am
Florida man pleads not guilty to shooting teen to death over loud music

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/28/15513847-florida-man-pleads-not-guilty-to-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

"Supposedly his statement was, 'I just fired at these kids.' I don't know if he knew that he struck anyone in the vehicle. The next morning, I guess when they woke up in the hotel and saw on the news that someone was killed, that's when they got in their car and fled."

2014...the year of gun control....

A misguided initiative.  Asshats will still get ahold of guns...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on November 30, 2012, 09:13:09 am
Did this happen this year? It just seems so long ago.  ???


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Vashta Nerada on November 30, 2012, 07:48:55 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2217235/Gil-Collar-University-police-officer-shot-naked-student-WAS-carrying-baton-pepper-spray.html
It has been revealed that the University of South Alabama campus police officer who fatally shot a naked student was carrying pepper spray and a baton at the time

University spokesman Keith Ayers admitted yesterday that Officer Trevis Austin, was armed with all three weapons when he walked outside the police station with his gun drawn to confront Gil Collar.
The shooting of the 18-year-old college freshman who was naked when he banged on police department windows in the early hours of last Saturday caused national outrage because of the perceived use of excessive force.  No toxicology reports support campus police claims that Collar was on LSD. 
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/09/article-2215314-1569F2D4000005DC-380_306x423.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/10/09/article-2215314-156DC396000005DC-68_306x423.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on December 03, 2012, 06:42:46 pm
Latest pic to be released of the shooter later that night/morning.

(http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/zimmerman-bloodied-e1354569582845.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on December 03, 2012, 11:13:29 pm
Latest pic to be released of the shooter later that night/morning.

(http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/zimmerman-bloodied-e1354569582845.jpg)

Yep, one of those damned white Hispanics.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on December 04, 2012, 12:26:58 am
What's that pic prove?

As I've said before: let's wait and see what the judicial process decides.

Bob Costas rocks! http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/12/03/nbcs_bob_costas_goes_on_gun_control_rant_about_nfl_players_murder-suicide.html

attack at will....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on December 04, 2012, 02:30:57 am
What's that pic prove?

As I've said before: let's wait and see what the judicial process decides.


Really? Who wrote this on the FIRST PAGE of this thread:

Quote
Conan, the "according to the Sentinel's report" has no reliable basis. It means nothing.

This is a clear cut case of bad police work. We've seen similar corruption here.

Worse, it's a clear case of vilifying the victim. Shameful...

I think Zimmerman is a nut case with a history of violence and ignoring police. I wouldn't believe a word the police say or what they leak like Martin's suspension from school. I want to see all the evidence which will point towards a teenager being bullied by a bigot and murdered.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18876.0

Yeah, let's wait and see all right...

Oh, and there's this I also found. Not sure who this belongs to...

Quote
Pee Eye GEE! Zimmerman hunted and killed a child. After being specifically told NOT to pursue him. He handled his duty to the neighborhood by reporting "suspicious" behavior to the authorities. The facts are in. A grown donkey man hunted and murdered a child in cold blood against the order of a police dispatcher who passed the information along to the proper authorities. The (disputed) fact that Trayvon (may or may not) have gotten some blows in on his predator are irrelevant. Very simply stated, don't start no sh!t, won't be no sh!t. Call 5-0, go back in the house. Period. End of story.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on December 04, 2012, 09:44:18 am
What's that pic prove?

As I've said before: let's wait and see what the judicial process decides.

Bob Costas rocks! http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/12/03/nbcs_bob_costas_goes_on_gun_control_rant_about_nfl_players_murder-suicide.html

attack at will....

Well Bobby is right. If Jovon did not have a hand gun they both would be alive and she would resemble the image of singer Rihanna. And he would have gotten a slap on the wrist, A little community service, probation and fines to fund the City payroll. After which he would get a tattoo of that image on his neck and eventually she would go back to him and live a life of abuse. And as Alice Cooper once sang. "Live and Love in Pain"
Yes emotionally distressed people should not have access to hand guns. Somewhere someone who are close to unstable people have to step in and interject themselves in the lives of the ones that they love and care about.
Taking guns out of the hands of the public because people tend to do what they are unable to control makes no sense on the larger picture of responsible gun owners. I have no gun and don't want one. That is my choice. My Father was a Police officer, So was his Father and also my Brother. I have been around guns my whole life and I have seen they can be owned and used properly. So TTCU, If you and Bobby and all the other Dems feel that you can't own a gun responsibly. Then do as I do.......Don't.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on December 04, 2012, 12:01:21 pm
So TTCU, If you and Bobby and all the other Dems feel that you can't own a gun responsibly. Then do as I do.......Don't.

That's my plan. Unfortunately the mentally unstable are not usually very good decision makers. That doesn't mean I think guns should be outlawed or even directly licensed. I would like it if the laws already on the books were enforced more vigorously in some instances rather than just being used as something to tack on to other criminal charges.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on December 04, 2012, 06:11:52 pm
Really? Who wrote this on the FIRST PAGE of this thread:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18876.0

Yeah, let's wait and see all right...

Oh, and there's this I also found. Not sure who this belongs to...


My mind was made up instantly. I am not judge and jury. I am fully aware of the negative impact the gun society is having on liberty. I await a trial. It beats leaving the case in permanent limbo.


Quote

In KC, it's no time for a game


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/jovan-belcher-kansas-city-chiefs-murder-suicide-tragedy-girlfriend-self-leave-orphan-daughter-why-still-playing-sunday-120112
I would argue that your rationalizations speak to how numb we are in this society to gun violence and murder. We’ve come to accept our insanity. We’d prefer to avoid seriously reflecting upon the absurdity of the prevailing notion that the second amendment somehow enhances our liberty rather than threatens it.

How many young people have to die senselessly? How many lives have to be ruined before we realize the right to bear arms doesn’t protect us from a government equipped with stealth bombers, predator drones, tanks and nuclear weapons?

Our current gun culture simply ensures that more and more domestic disputes will end in the ultimate tragedy, and that more convenience-store confrontations over loud music coming from a car will leave more teenage boys bloodied and dead.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 04, 2012, 09:12:25 pm
What's that pic prove?

As I've said before: let's wait and see what the judicial process decides.

Bob Costas rocks! http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/12/03/nbcs_bob_costas_goes_on_gun_control_rant_about_nfl_players_murder-suicide.html

attack at will....


Once in a while you have a lucid thought and even though usually obscure...sometimes valid point.  This ain't one of them.  Costas rocks...yeah, like a box of rocks.  He is an idiot.  He ignores all the evidence and years of experience to the contrary.  And you seem to be tying on to the back of his little misguided train.






Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 04, 2012, 09:16:35 pm
My mind was made up instantly. I am not judge and jury. I am fully aware of the negative impact the gun society is having on liberty. I await a trial. It beats leaving the case in permanent limbo.



Which in "realspeak" means you have no clue of the true impact the gun society is having on liberty.  Well over 2.5 million times a year, someone defends themselves successfully using a firearm to prevent a violent crime action.  That is actually a positive effect.  But that would mean there would have to be true understanding....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on December 05, 2012, 03:45:09 am
My mind was made up instantly. I am not judge and jury. I am fully aware of the negative impact the gun society is having on liberty. I await a trial. It beats leaving the case in permanent limbo.




Just shut UP!  You are too stupid to see how embarrassing you really are. I hope folks that lurk around here do not get their impressions of Tulsa from you.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on December 05, 2012, 04:04:14 pm
Just shut UP!  You are too stupid to see how embarrassing you really are. I hope folks that lurk around here do not get their impressions of Tulsa from you.
Delusional cop wannabe. Most of Zimmerman's many many 911 calls were sightings of black males, including an 11 year old kid in one case.

Self defense would have been Zimmerman fighting Martin straight up. He was losing a fight. It happens to bullies sometimes. :P

Is it legal to instigate a confrontation, then when losing a fist fight pull a pistol and kill your adversary?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 05, 2012, 09:12:55 pm
Delusional cop wannabe. Most of Zimmerman's many many 911 calls were sightings of black males, including an 11 year old kid in one case.

Self defense would have been Zimmerman fighting Martin straight up. He was losing a fight. It happens to bullies sometimes. :P

Is it legal to instigate a confrontation, then when losing a fist fight pull a pistol and kill your adversary?



No, it isn't.  And he should be tried (and I think convicted).  Just no connection to a "negative impact...".  There IS no negative impact - there are millions...no, tens of millions...of people in this country who are good, law abiding gun owners who at least have the nominal ability to defend themselves, as well as enjoy the myriad shooting sports available in this country. 





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on December 05, 2012, 11:22:17 pm
as well as enjoy the myriad shooting sports available in this country. 

Even in the relatively gun-phobic Canada, you can own and use guns for sport. Nobody has seriously proposed melting down all the guns, so this doesn't really support an argument against gun control.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 05, 2012, 11:35:26 pm
Even in the relatively gun-phobic Canada, you can own and use guns for sport. Nobody has seriously proposed melting down all the guns, so this doesn't really support an argument against gun control.

It wasn't an argument.  It was just an extra benefit to having the right.


And yes, there are MANY who seriously propose melting down all the guns.  Or cutting them in half.  Here.  In this country.  And it has happened way too often.  And it's wrong - on many levels.




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on December 06, 2012, 07:35:47 am
Delusional cop wannabe. Most of Zimmerman's many many 911 calls were sightings of black males, including an 11 year old kid in one case.

Is it legal to instigate a confrontation, then when losing a fist fight pull a pistol and kill your adversary?



So calling 911 on strangers in your neighborhood is now grounds for being "delusional?"      I guess you should talk to the weird busybody lady that lives next door to me.

Yes, it is legal to stop someone and tell them the cops are on their way....   If they should assault you at that point (ie. they start punching you in the face) it is legal to shoot them in self defense.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 06, 2012, 08:10:14 am

So calling 911 on strangers in your neighborhood is now grounds for being "delusional?"     

He called 911 operators 41 times in two months. I don't know if delusional is the right term, but that ain't normal.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on December 06, 2012, 08:10:40 am

So calling 911 on strangers in your neighborhood is now grounds for being "delusional?"      I guess you should talk to the weird busybody lady that lives next door to me.

Yes, it is legal to stop someone and tell them the cops are on their way....   If they should assault you at that point (ie. they start punching you in the face) it is legal to shoot them in self defense.

Actually, no it's not.  Level of attack applies here, especially if you're not in your own home.  If the assailant pulls a knife or gun, then obviously yes it is.

If you were in your home OR vehicle and could prove you had a reasonable expectation of loss of life or being maimed, then yes, Castle Doctrine would apply here.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on December 06, 2012, 08:45:35 am
Actually, no it's not.  Level of attack applies here, especially if you're not in your own home.  If the assailant pulls a knife or gun, then obviously yes it is.

If you were in your home OR vehicle and could prove you had a reasonable expectation of loss of life or being maimed, then yes, Castle Doctrine would apply here.


No, not really.   If someone is punching me in the face that is fear of great bodily harm.  People have died from punches.

"Bodily harm" means physical pain or injury, illness, or any impairment of physical condition.  (Or so defined in Wisconsin.)
The dictionary defines “serious,” in the context of an injury, as “having important or dangerous possible consequences.”  Black's Law Dictionary supplies a similar meaning:  “dangerous;  potentially resulting in death or other severe consequences.”   Black's Law Dictionary 1398 (8th ed. 2004)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on December 06, 2012, 08:50:47 am

No, not really.   If someone is punching me in the face that is fear of great bodily harm.  People have died from punches.

"Bodily harm" means physical pain or injury, illness, or any impairment of physical condition.  (Or so defined in Wisconsin.)
The dictionary defines “serious,” in the context of an injury, as “having important or dangerous possible consequences.”  Black's Law Dictionary supplies a similar meaning:  “dangerous;  potentially resulting in death or other severe consequences.”   Black's Law Dictionary 1398 (8th ed. 2004)

Try shooting someone like that and claim self-defense here.  Won't hold water.  Especially if you're not within your 'castle', even if you have a Handgun license.  It was pretty specifically outlined, at least to me, during my classes.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Ed W on December 06, 2012, 08:58:43 am
He called 911 operators 41 times in two months. I don't know if delusional is the right term, but that ain't normal.

Michael, I had neighbors who called the cops every day.  When they weren't fighting each other, they called to complain that a relative had stolen something or that an unknown prowler had broken into the house.  Most of it was imaginary.  They were very weird people.  

But we heard the dispatcher put out a call for an officer to visit their address.  There would be a long silence, then one of the patrol cops would say with a note of resignation, "OK, I'll take it this time."

It's possible that the Florida cops had a similar response after so many fruitless calls.  That may have fueled Zimmerman's frustration and anger.  And I'm merely speculating, of course, but I suspect this will come out at trial.  He was advised to not approach, yet he did so anyway perhaps out of frustration at the police response.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 06, 2012, 09:26:20 am
I think he was just obsessed with his voluntary job of neighborhood watch guy. He had an image in his mind that black teenagers in his neighborhood were there to steal and called every time he saw one. I believe he was frustrated with the police and took it upon himself to confront one of them.

He was clearly told not to, but ignored the police dispatcher. Instead he started a fight, got punched, and pulled out a gun and killed the boy.

He belongs behind bars. He was wrong and now someone is dead because of his actions.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on December 06, 2012, 10:34:10 am
Whoa! Whoa! Scotty, take it down a notch. He started a fight? confronting and asking a question. Then turning to walk away after he was accosted verbally. Getting blindsided with a punch to the head and taken to the ground is starting a fight?
That's what you get for asking a loaded question I guess.  ::)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on December 06, 2012, 11:08:24 am
The game-changer was the fact that the gunman pursued his victim.
That deflates any "I was in fear for my life" stock excuse he was apparently coached on.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 06, 2012, 11:23:26 am
Whoa! Whoa! Scotty, take it down a notch. He started a fight?

Ok you are right. I used the word fight and the prosecutor used the word confrontation.

From wikipedia...

The prosecution's account is largely contained in the affidavit of probable cause filed on April 11, 2012 in support of second-degree murder charges against Zimmerman. A conviction of second-degree murder could result in Zimmerman receiving a prison term of 25 years to life. The affidavit states that it does not contain a complete recitation of facts, but presents only the facts to support probable cause for second-degree murder charges. Judge Mark Herr ruled that the affidavit was legally sufficient to establish probable cause.The affidavit describes what investigators allege took place between Zimmerman and Martin on the night of the shooting.

The affidavit states that Martin was walking back from a nearby 7-Eleven store to the townhouse where he was temporarily living when Zimmerman profiled Martin, who was unarmed and not committing a crime. Prosecutor's stated that Zimmerman was driving in his vehicle when he observed Martin and assumed he was a criminal. Feeling that Martin did not belong in the gated community where Zimmerman lived, he called the police to request for an officer to respond, because he perceived Martin was acting suspicious. Investigators said the dispatcher told Zimmerman an officer was on the way and to wait for him. In the call, Zimmerman made reference to people he felt had gotten away with break-ins in the neighborhood, and while talking about Martin, stated "these assholes, they always get away" and also said "these fu@king punks".
 
According to investigators, while Zimmerman was speaking with police, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening. She said that Martin was scared because he was being followed by an unknown male and didn't know why. Investigators said that Martin attempted to run home, but Zimmerman followed him, because he didn't want Martin whom he falsely assumed was going to commit a crime, to get away before the police arrived. When the police dispatcher realized Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that and told him an officer would meet him. Prosecutors stated that Zimmerman ignored the dispatcher's instruction and continued pursuing Martin on foot. Investigators said Zimmerman then confronted Martin and a struggle ensued.
 
The affidavit describes witness accounts of hearing people arguing, what sounded like a struggle, and yells for help that were recorded in the 9-1-1 calls to police. According to prosecutors, Martin's mother reviewed the 9-1-1 calls to police and identified the voice crying for help as her son.  When police arrived at the scene, Zimmerman admitted to shooting Martin in the chest. An assistant medical examiner conducted an autopsy and determined that Martin had died from the gunshot.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 06, 2012, 03:57:24 pm
Whoa! Whoa! Scotty, take it down a notch. He started a fight? confronting and asking a question. Then turning to walk away after he was accosted verbally. Getting blindsided with a punch to the head and taken to the ground is starting a fight?
That's what you get for asking a loaded question I guess.  ::)

We will see...but that still is just a few second snapshot of something that evolved over a few minutes.  And Zimmerman was doing the pursuing up until these few seconds.  Gotta look outside the box just a little bit more...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on December 06, 2012, 04:24:10 pm
We will see...but that still is just a few second snapshot of something that evolved over a few minutes.  And Zimmerman was doing the pursuing up until these few seconds.  Gotta look outside the box just a little bit more...


His biggest problem is he has no idea how to fight. If he did, he wouldn't be in the situation he is in.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on December 06, 2012, 09:39:53 pm
Here comes a lawsuit.

Quote
Lawyers for George Zimmerman filed suit today against NBC Universal Media over a well-publicized editing error that portrayed their client in racist terms in his pursuit of Trayvon Martin on a drizzly evening in February.

“NBC saw the death of Trayvon Martin not as a tragedy but as an opportunity to increase ratings, and so to set about the myth that George Zimmerman was a racist and predatory villain,” states the civil complaint in its opening salvo against NBC.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2012/12/06/george-zimmerman-sues-nbc-over-trayvon-martin-reports/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 07, 2012, 02:31:46 pm
His biggest problem is he has no idea how to fight. If he did, he wouldn't be in the situation he is in.


Maybe he thought he did know how to fight....which leads to the next bigger problem; why did he feel there was a need to fight - when the cops were on the way, they told him they were on the way, and instructed him to stay OUT of the way?



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TeeDub on December 10, 2012, 09:44:42 pm

Maybe he thought he did know how to fight....which leads to the next bigger problem; why did he feel there was a need to fight - when the cops were on the way, they told him they were on the way, and instructed him to stay OUT of the way?



The dispatcher told him something.   Good thing we don't have to listen to dispatchers.

 "I've got two guns in my hand -- is it okay to shoot him if he comes in this door?" the young mother asked the 911 dispatcher. "I'm here by myself with my infant baby, can I please get a dispatcher out here immediately?"

The 911 dispatcher confirmed with McKinley that the doors to her home were locked as she asked again if it was okay to shoot the intruder if he were to come through her door.

"I can't tell you that you can do that but you do what you have to do to protect your baby," the dispatcher told her. McKinley was on the phone with 911 for a total of 21 minutes.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on December 11, 2012, 08:21:43 am
The dispatcher told him something.   Good thing we don't have to listen to dispatchers.

 "I've got two guns in my hand -- is it okay to shoot him if he comes in this door?" the young mother asked the 911 dispatcher. "I'm here by myself with my infant baby, can I please get a dispatcher out here immediately?"

The 911 dispatcher confirmed with McKinley that the doors to her home were locked as she asked again if it was okay to shoot the intruder if he were to come through her door.

"I can't tell you that you can do that but you do what you have to do to protect your baby," the dispatcher told her. McKinley was on the phone with 911 for a total of 21 minutes.
Now let's see. Getting killed or getting sued?..................Hmm, that's a tough one.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 19, 2012, 04:33:23 pm
Even in the relatively gun-phobic Canada, you can own and use guns for sport. Nobody has seriously proposed melting down all the guns, so this doesn't really support an argument against gun control.


Still think Blobama is not out to get your guns...??  Just waiting for the right minute.  And now, not two months after election, here it is.  Talk about making a political issue....

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-set-january-deadline-gun-proposals-173610698--finance.html


Gawd, I hate it when I am so right about something so bad for the country....

On the SAME DAY as Sandy Hook, a guy in China went into a school and attacked kids.  Wounded a couple dozen.  
A couple years ago, another guy went into Chinese school and killed a bunch of kids - with a knife.
Couple years ago, a guy in Norway - with VERY strong gun laws - killed 77 kids.

Yeah...gun control will stop this type of problem.  Never!

NO sense of history in this country!

http://news.yahoo.com/mass-school-bombing-1927-puts-sandy-hook-context-185608674.html




Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on December 19, 2012, 04:57:47 pm

Still think Blobama is not out to get your guns...??  Just waiting for the right minute.  And now, not two months after election, here it is.  Talk about making a political issue....

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-set-january-deadline-gun-proposals-173610698--finance.html


Gawd, I hate it when I am so right about something so bad for the country....

On the SAME DAY as Sandy Hook, a guy in China went into a school and attacked kids.  Wounded a couple dozen.  
A couple years ago, another guy went into Chinese school and killed a bunch of kids - with a knife.
Couple years ago, a guy in Norway - with VERY strong gun laws - killed 77 kids.

Yeah...gun control will stop this type of problem.  Never!

NO sense of history in this country!

http://news.yahoo.com/mass-school-bombing-1927-puts-sandy-hook-context-185608674.html




Wrong. We know all about the Confederacy.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 19, 2012, 05:02:55 pm
Wrong. We know all about the Confederacy.


And even though you lived through it, doesn't mean you remember any of it...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on December 19, 2012, 05:05:07 pm

And even though you lived through it, doesn't mean you remember any of it...


We are still "living through it".... "it" is ignorance and intolerance.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 19, 2012, 06:23:37 pm
We are still "living through it".... "it" is ignorance and intolerance.


WOW!!!  I sat here for a full 30 seconds - STUNNED to silence... a lucid thought...nay, not just lucid, but actual insight into the human condition!!


Now just, just remember that when you start saying anything related to gun control...since, to date, those two human conditions are all you have expressed on this topic.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 25, 2013, 08:21:30 pm
Quote
A sheriff who released a radio ad urging Milwaukee-area residents to learn to handle firearms so they can defend themselves while waiting for police said Friday that law enforcement cutbacks have changed the way police can respond to crime.

In the 30-second commercial, Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke Jr. says personal safety is no longer a spectator sport.
"I need you in the game," he says.

"With officers laid off and furloughed, simply calling 911 and waiting is no longer your best option," he adds. "You can beg for mercy from a violent criminal, hide under the bed, or you can fight back. ... Consider taking a certified safety course in handling a firearm so you can defend yourself until we get there."

Under Wisconsin's "castle doctrine," someone who uses deadly force against an unlawful intruder to their home, business or vehicle is presumed to have acted reasonably. A spokeswoman for the state Department of Justice said that as of this week, there are about 155,000 concealed carry permits in Wisconsin.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Clarke said he just wants people to know what their options are. While self-defense isn't for everyone, some people see personal safety as their own responsibility, he said, and they should be trained properly.
"I'm not telling you to 'Hey, pick up a gun and blast away.' ... People need to know what they are doing if they chose that method — to defend themselves," he said.

But he also said he wanted to call on residents to be law enforcement "partners." He said he could either whine about budget cuts that forced him to lay off 48 deputies last year or he could get creative.
"People are responsible to play a role in their own safety, with the help of law enforcement," Clarke said. "I'm here to do my part, but we have fewer and fewer resources. We're not omnipresent, and we have to stop giving people that impression."
"After sitting down and thinking about this, I'm thinking 'Hey, I've got an untapped reserve over here, and it's the public,'" Clarke said.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 25, 2013, 08:40:07 pm
Most REAL law enforcement has that attitude.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on February 14, 2013, 04:37:15 pm
(http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/zimmerman1.jpg)

Zimmerman has gained 105 pounds.

Those drugs for mental illness give you quite the appetite?

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/02/14/1594051/whats-happened-in-the-trayvon-martin-case-since-you-stopped-paying-attention/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on February 15, 2013, 09:12:17 am
You are such a hater.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on February 16, 2013, 08:49:52 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yoN4FF607M[/youtube]

This is a very good interview....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Vashta Nerada on March 01, 2013, 08:01:03 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/23/showbiz/california-mc-hammer-arrest/index.html

Quote
"Chubby elvis looking dude was tapping on my car window, I rolled down the window and he said 'Are you on parole or probation?'"
"While I was handing him my ID he reached in my car and tried to pull me out the car but forgot he was on a steady donut diet," Hammer continued.
"It was comical to me until he pulled out his guns, blew his whistle and yelled for help (MallCop) !!! But make no mistake he's dangerous."


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Teatownclown on March 25, 2013, 02:50:11 pm
Never mind about Robert Zimmerman Junior's credibility...he has none: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/25/1195013/-George-Zimmerman-s-brother-compares-Trayvon-Martin-to-alleged-baby-killer

 
Quote
If you're young, black, and happen to have a middle finger, that's all Robert Zimmerman needs to declare you "risky," and, presumably, worth being shot by someone like his brother.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on June 27, 2013, 11:30:55 am
So what does everyone think so far about the friend of Trayvon's testimony?

She does not feel that him saying that a "creepy a$$ cracker" was following him, is racily motivated.
The same as George Z saying that "They" always getaway is not racily motivated.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Townsend on June 27, 2013, 11:55:16 am
So what does everyone think so far about the friend of Trayvon's testimony?

She does not feel that him saying that a "creepy a$$ cracker" was following him, is racily motivated.
The same as George Z saying that "They" always getaway is not racily motivated.

I can't pay any attention to her until she takes that scull cap thing off her noggin.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on June 27, 2013, 12:10:36 pm
So what does everyone think so far about the friend of Trayvon's testimony?

She does not feel that him saying that a "creepy a$$ cracker" was following him, is racily motivated.
The same as George Z saying that "They" always getaway is not racily motivated.

Of course Trayvon didn't kill anyone, so that's not really relevant is it?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on June 27, 2013, 06:47:50 pm
Of course Trayvon didn't kill anyone, so that's not really relevant is it?

Neither did Paula Deen.

The racial diode is working again.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2013, 09:36:32 pm
Doesn't matter what any of their racial motivations were...Trayvon didn't like white folk, Zimmerman didn't like black folk.  Irrelevant.  Who killed whom, and why?  Maybe this trial will get to that somewhere along the line.  And as I have mentioned before, I think that is secondary to the FACT that Zimmerman was told to stand down, by the LEO's responding to his call.  And he negligently ignored them, as he stated to the 911 operator.  At the very least, he was the direct proximate cause of the death due to his not doing what he was directed to by the proper authority.







Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on June 27, 2013, 10:40:30 pm
Neither did Paula Deen.

The racial diode is working again.

In which jurisdiction is she charged with murder again?  She is simply embarrassed for being a racist a$$hole.


 Plantation style wedding. Seriously.  Even in Savanna that's racist as hell in 2007.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on June 27, 2013, 10:47:56 pm
Doesn't matter what any of their racial motivations were...Trayvon didn't like white folk, Zimmerman didn't like black folk.  Irrelevant.  Who killed whom, and why?  Maybe this trial will get to that somewhere along the line.  And as I have mentioned before, I think that is secondary to the FACT that Zimmerman was told to stand down, by the LEO's responding to his call.  And he negligently ignored them, as he stated to the 911 operator.  At the very least, he was the direct proximate cause of the death due to his not doing what he was directed to by the proper authority.



You realize Zimmerman is part black right?  It's been reported his great grandfather was black and he's dated black women in the past.  There's been no proof he's a racist at all.  There's actually compelling evidence to the contrary.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on June 28, 2013, 06:42:34 am
In which jurisdiction is she charged with murder again?  She is simply embarrassed for being a racist a$$hole.
 Plantation style wedding. Seriously.  Even in Savanna that's racist as hell in 2007.

Perhaps you don't find "creepy a$$ cracker" offensive.  I do.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2013, 11:27:50 am
In which jurisdiction is she charged with murder again?  She is simply embarrassed for being a racist a$$hole.


 Plantation style wedding. Seriously.  Even in Savanna that's racist as hell in 2007.


I'm wondering if she could claim "heat of the moment"....gun to her head during a bank robbery, from the little bit I'm hearing.  I'm wondering if instantaneous Turet's couldn't happen to a lot of people?



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 28, 2013, 11:31:06 am
You realize Zimmerman is part black right?  It's been reported his great grandfather was black and he's dated black women in the past.  There's been no proof he's a racist at all.  There's actually compelling evidence to the contrary.


Just from what I'm seeing on news - Martin was calling him a cracker.  And Zimmerman made a whole bunch of calls, all related to black men...that sounds kind of profile-ish to me...  I have no real idea what is or was in the hearts of either of them.  It could have been another one of those heat of the moment things.  Zimmerman was still the direct proximate cause.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on June 28, 2013, 12:32:01 pm

I'm wondering if she could claim "heat of the moment"....gun to her head during a bank robbery, from the little bit I'm hearing.  I'm wondering if instantaneous Turet's couldn't happen to a lot of people?



She planned and executed an Antebellum Southern Wedding for her brother complete with an entirely black staff waiting on her white family and presumably at least mostly white friends. And this wasn't 20 or 30 years ago, this was in 2007. She was play acting like her staff were slaves. Some fun, huh?

She isn't just accused of doing this, she admitted to this in a deposition from a lawsuit where she is being sued for discrimination by a black employee.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on June 28, 2013, 12:48:23 pm
From the lawsuit:

Quote
"Paula Deen placed Ms. Jackson in charge of food and serving arrangements for the wedding of her brother Bubba Hiers in 2007. When Ms. Jackson asked Ms. Deen what look the wedding should have, Ms. Deen replied, 'I want a true Southern plantation-style wedding,'" according to the complaint.
     "Asked by Ms. Jackson what type uniforms she preferred servers to wear, Paula Deen stated, 'Well, what I would really like is a bunch of little niggers to wear long-sleeve white shirts, black shorts and black bow ties, you know, like the Shirley Temple days, they used to tap dance around.' Paula Deen laughed and said 'Now that would be a true Southern wedding, wouldn't it? But we can't do that because the media would be on me about that.' Ms. Jackson did not laugh, stating 'no, we can't do that;' a pregnant pause followed and the meeting ended shortly thereafter.

Here’s word for word from her deposition:

Quote
Okay. So was Lisa ever present when you discussed with Brandon what kind of wedding you'd like to have?
I don't recall that. I recall — I do recall, once again, in my bathroom at that house, and why we would have been in the bathroom, I was probably filming and changing clothes, that's the only reason why we would have been in that bathroom, they must have run out during my lunch break or something from filming, and I remember us talking about the meal. And I remember telling them about a restaurant that my husband and I had recently visited. And I'm wanting to think it was in Tennessee or North Carolina or somewhere, and it was so impressive. The whole entire wait staff was middle-aged black men, and they had on beautiful white jackets with a black bow tie. I mean, it was really impressive. And I remember saying I would love to have servers like that, I said, but I would be afraid somebody would misinterpret.
The media might misinterpret it?
Yes, or whomever –
Okay.
— is so shallow that they would read something into it.
Were they dressed in white shorts and bow ties?
No, they were dressed in white jackets.
White jackets?
Dinner jackets.
And a bow tie?
And a bow tie and black trousers, and they were incredible.
Okay. And you said something –
These were men that had made their living off of service and people in a restaurant.
Right.
It was – I was so impressed.
Okay. And they were all black men?
Yes. Professional servers and waiters.
And when you described it to Miss Jackson, did you mention the race of – well, you had to have mentioned the race of the servers –
Of course I would –
—because that's the part that –
—because that's what we just experienced.
Right. Do you know what word you used to identify their race?
I would have used just what I just told you.
Black or African-American?
Black. I would use the word black.
Okay.
I don't usually use African-Americans.
Okay.
I try to go with whatever the black race is wanting to call themselves at each given time. I try to go along with that and remember that.
Okay. So is there any reason that you could not have done something just like that but with people of different races?
Well, that's what made it.
[Objection]
That's what made it so impressive. These were professional. I'm not talking about somebody that's been a waiter for two weeks. I'm talking about these were professional middle-aged men, that probably made a very, very good living –
Okay.
at this restaurant. They were trained. The – it – it was the whole picture, the setting of the restaurant, the servers, their professionalism.
Is there any reason you couldn't have found middle-aged professional servers who were of different races?
[Objection.]
Listen, it was not important enough to me to even fight, to reproduce what that restaurant had. I was just simply expressing an experience that my husband and I had, and I was so impressed.
Did you describe it as a – that that would be a true southern wedding,words to that effect?
I don't know.
Do you recall using the words "really southern plantation wedding"?
Yes, I did say I would love for Bubba to experience a very southern stylewedding, and we did that. We did that.
Okay. You would love for him to experience a southern style plantation wedding?
Yes.
That's what you said?
Well, something like that, yes. And –
Okay. And is that when you went on to describe the experience you had at the restaurant in question?
Well, I don't know. We were probably talking about the food or – we would have been talking about something to do with service at the wedding, and –
Is there any possibility, in your mind, that you slipped and used the word "n----r"?
No, because that's not what these men were. They were professional black men doing a fabulous job.
Why did that make it a – if you would have had servers like that, why would that have made it a really southern plantation wedding?
[Objection]
Well, it – to me, of course I'm old but I ain't that old, I didn't live back in those days but I've seen the pictures, and the pictures that I've seen, that restaurant represented a certain era in America.
Okay.
And I was in the south when I went to this restaurant. It was located in the south. Okay. What era in America are you referring to?
Well, I don't know. After the Civil War, during the Civil War, before the Civil War.
Right. Back in an era where there were middle-aged black men waitingon white people.
Well, it was not only black men, it was black women.
Sure. And before the Civil War – before the Civil War, those black men and women who were waiting on white people were slaves, right?
Yes, I would say that they were slaves.
Okay.
But I did not mean anything derogatory by saying that I loved their look and their professionalism.

Because there's nothing intended to be derogatory about having your black employees pretend to be slaves to your family.


Here’s word for word from her deposition again, talking about how she tought her children NOT to use racial epithets:

Quote
Okay. And could you give me an example of how you have demonstrated for them a nice way to use the N-word?
[Objection]
Or a non-mean way?
[Objection]
We hear a lot of things in the kitchen. Things that they — that black people will say to each other. If we are relaying something that was said, a problem that we're discussing, that's not said in a mean way.
What about jokes, if somebody is telling a joke that's got —
It's just what they are, they're jokes.
Okay. Would you consider those to be using the N word in a mean way?
[Objection]
That's — that's kind of hard. Most — most jokes are about Jewish people, rednecks, black folks. Most jokes target — I don't know. I didn't make up the joke, I don't know. I can't — I don't know.
Okay.
They usually target, though, a group. Gays or straights, black, redneck, you know, I just don't know — I just don't know what to say. I can't, myself, determine what offends another person.
Well, if you were sitting around at home just with you and your family, would you feel any hesitation in telling a joke that you thought was funny if it had the N-word in it?
I don't tell jokes, not at my house. That's —
Do the other members of your family tell jokes at home?
Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
And they told jokes using the N-word?
I'm sure they have. My husband is constantly telling me jokes.
Okay. And have — are you offended at all by those jokes?
No, because it's my husband.
Okay. What about your brother, does he tell those jokes?
I'm sure he has. Bubba's not good at joke telling, but I'm sure he's tried to repeat some.
Okay. He just does it badly?
Yeah, he don't — he doesn't tell 'em good.


The stuff from the lawsuit about her brother is far, far worse.


So can we stop now with equating Paula Deen as being unfairly treated when compared to a dead kid that may or may not have used the word Cracker to describe the man that killed him.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on June 28, 2013, 12:57:57 pm
She planned and executed an Antebellum Southern Wedding for her brother complete with an entirely black staff waiting on her white family and presumably at least mostly white friends. And this wasn't 20 or 30 years ago, this was in 2007. She was play acting like her staff were slaves. Some fun, huh?

She isn't just accused of doing this, she admitted to this in a deposition from a lawsuit where she is being sued for discrimination by a black employee.


According to the deposition you posted, she didn't end up having the "slave" wait staff.

What's the statute of limitations on admitting you were a doosh in the past?  Why would it make any more of a difference to you if it were 20-30 years ago vs. 6 years.  It's in the past either way.  Neither you nor I know the content of what is in her heart.  They even had several of her black employees on one of the entertainment shows last night defending Paula. 

Regardless, I still don't think what she has said in the past is worth destroying someone over which is what is happening.  How are any of us any better by taking glee in watching someone like Paula Deen being taken down?  I wouldn't want my entire life judged by my stupid past decisions or things I've said that I now regret. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on June 28, 2013, 08:11:33 pm
So can we stop now with equating Paula Deen as being unfairly treated when compared to a dead kid that may or may not have used the word Cracker to describe the man that killed him.

No.

Travon Martin did not deserve to die for those words.  Paula Deen does not deserve to have her live destroyed either.  It just shows that racism is still a diode.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on June 29, 2013, 04:47:46 pm
You would think the Trayvon Martin trial would dissuade police from citing "wearing a hoodie" as reason to stop a pedestrian, but Tahlequah has always been behind the curve:

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Man-arrested-charged-with-making-terroristic/miijwVxEnU66OfWfjYHBDQ.cspx

Funny part is, the suspect and cop know each other, but that didnt stop the PD from charging the man with terrorism when he joked that he was an Al-Qaeda sleeper agent.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 30, 2013, 08:04:03 pm
She planned and executed an Antebellum Southern Wedding for her brother complete with an entirely black staff waiting on her white family and presumably at least mostly white friends. And this wasn't 20 or 30 years ago, this was in 2007. She was play acting like her staff were slaves. Some fun, huh?

She isn't just accused of doing this, she admitted to this in a deposition from a lawsuit where she is being sued for discrimination by a black employee.


Does anyone really care about Paula Deen?

I wonder if Joni and Marvin are racists, since they wanted a "southern style wedding"...?  In a big ole Baton Rouge Plantation house.
http://www.theknot.com/weddings/album/joni-and-marvin-a-southern-style-wedding-in-baton-rouge-la-48164

Or Ida and DuWayne?
http://www.theknot.com/contests/my-real-wedding/photo/161290/our-southern-style-wedding

Perhaps they changed it all around and had all white waiters...?

Seems to be a whole lot of interest in southern style weddings... in the south.  Paula - I don't care one way or the other about her - she is irrelevant in my world...just does not impinge into my reality (I already know how to make fried chicken - and I use lard when cooking it!!)   



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on July 01, 2013, 07:27:35 am
Does anyone really care about Paula Deen?

I wonder if Joni and Marvin are racists, since they wanted a "southern style wedding"...?  In a big ole Baton Rouge Plantation house.
http://www.theknot.com/weddings/album/joni-and-marvin-a-southern-style-wedding-in-baton-rouge-la-48164

Or Ida and DuWayne?
http://www.theknot.com/contests/my-real-wedding/photo/161290/our-southern-style-wedding

Perhaps they changed it all around and had all white waiters...?

Seems to be a whole lot of interest in southern style weddings... in the south.  Paula - I don't care one way or the other about her - she is irrelevant in my world...just does not impinge into my reality (I already know how to make fried chicken - and I use lard when cooking it!!)   



If you think that "Southern Style" is the same thing as having black employees pretend to be slaves serving your family you have issues.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: carltonplace on July 02, 2013, 12:15:30 pm
Paula Deen is a privileged white woman (yes she has worked hard for what she has) that doesn't know when to shut her mouth. She doesn't deserve to be destroyed because she admitted to making a dispicable slur while under oath, but she needs to stop making her case worse. But it was the slur that caused her downfall. 

Trayvon Martin is dead, and the jury will decide if he was murdered because of his race or in self defense...he was not killed because of the slur.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on July 16, 2013, 08:14:03 am
No response from the peanut gallery?  ???

I'm still amazed at what gets National attention while other more tragic crimes go unnoticed.
Four women tied up and shot execution style, and two innocent ORU joggers shot and killed. But.....
Were they racially motivated? or just crimes in the hood?

Or is it the perception that only white people profile other people of color?
I am still not sure why this one incident drew the media attention that it did.
And I will never understand the kind of passion that it takes to spend so much time demonstrating for something that has no direct bearing on you're own personal life. But hey, that's just me. If you feel that you're one lone face in a crowd with a sign makes all the difference. Then by all means go for it! what the hell do I know?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on July 16, 2013, 09:16:12 am
No response from the peanut gallery?  ???

I'm still amazed at what gets National attention while other more tragic crimes go unnoticed.
Four women tied up and shot execution style, and two innocent ORU joggers shot and killed. But.....
Were they racially motivated? or just crimes in the hood?

Or is it the perception that only white people profile other people of color?
I am still not sure why this one incident drew the media attention that it did.
And I will never understand the kind of passion that it takes to spend so much time demonstrating for something that has no direct bearing on you're own personal life. But hey, that's just me. If you feel that you're one lone face in a crowd with a sign makes all the difference. Then by all means go for it! what the hell do I know?

Killing with impunity is different than street crime. People certainly are overly scared of crimes like murder overall but the thing that scares people most is that the innocent might be killed and the killer faces no consequences.

People know that you can lower your chances of being a victim of murder by living in a decent area and by not doing hard drugs or living with people that are violent. People in Oklahoma don’t like to hear this but also not having guns in the house lowers your chances of being a victim of gun crime by half or more.

Trayvon’s parents did that, they lived in a nice area. Trayvon was a normal kid, he had never been in any real trouble other than smoking some pot and skipping classes. Did you ever smoke pot or skip class in high school? When he did get in what little trouble he was getting in he was relocated. His parents were working to keep him safe, and he was killed anyway and his killer got away with it.

The killers in the two shootings you mentioned are not getting away with anything. The two joggers were very tragic and that was very sad, another case of random crime reaching people not doing anything. The four women, while still sad, lived in a terrible area and were doing and dealing meth.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 16, 2013, 09:24:19 am
Dolfan, very good points.  When white joggers are thrill-killed by a couple of black teens, there's not a hint of it being racially-motivated.  When four white women are slain by one or more black men, it's not ginned up as a hate crime.

If Zimmerman had been black, or Martin were Hispanic or white, we would not have heard about this incident.

This was an attempt by those who profit off racial strife and the media which profits off the voyeurism created by sensationalizing tragedies like this, to simply make more money and gain more clout in minority communities.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Even more shameful is the Presidential administration and DOJ's use of the event as a political tool and to continue to widen the racial divide in this country.  Obama's record as a unifier is absolutely dismal.

The media successfully convicted Zimmerman in the court of public opinion.  The media manipulated evidence.  They introduced the terms: "white Hispanic" and "self-proclaimed Hispanic" in an attempt to keep the white vs. black angle going.  Does everyone remember how NBC's Miami Bureau edited Zimmerman's 911 call, to make it sound like he was profiling and a racist?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/us/florida-zimmerman-nbc-lawsuit

He was acquitted in the court which had the ultimate jurisdiction.  It really pisses me off to see the comments on Facebook and elsewhere that justice was not served.  The women who served as jurors likely also had to try to block the filter of being a mother and what it would have been like to have lost their own son, yet they still found in favor of the defendant.  I had suspected all along that an all woman jury was a sure conviction, I'm sure the prosecution believed that as well.  It pains me for people to deride the work of this jury without being in the courtroom and being allowed to hear what the jurors could and could not consider in weighing the merits of this case.  

The jury did the job they were charged with, yet millions still say Zimmerman was incorrectly acquitted.  Being on the jury in a murder trial is a very stressful life event, I've been through it and hope to never have to do it again.  I sure as hell don't want my best judgement called into question if I'm a juror.

Being "in the virtual jury" watching CNN when Nancy Grace or some other talking head is the prosecutor, it's really easy to come up with a bias without considering the accused does have rights which will be examined in a real court of law.

People want to change "stand your ground" laws or do away with them completely without realizing those very laws may make it possible for them to defend themselves in the event of an attack without having to go through a long, painful, and costly prosecution process.

Zimmerman had two choices that night: stay in his vehicle and monitor the suspicious individual or get out of the safety of his vehicle to pursue the subject on foot.  Obviously he made a mistake in judgement by getting out of his vehicle.  Keep in mind though, he had no legal obligation to remain in his vehicle.  

Martin had two choices that night: Respectfully ask why he was being followed and continue to his father's house or, as it appears happened, respond in a provocative and aggressive manner by attacking Zimmerman.

Both men made poor choices (IMO) and one of them wound up dead.

If Martin were approached by Zimmerman with his gun drawn, he had every right to defend himself.  If that's the way it went down, Zimmerman will have to face ultimate judgement some day.  Physical evidence suggests Zimmerman was in the process of getting a vicious beating when he shot Martin.  I can't say I wouldn't have reacted the same way if I were armed and stunned from having my nose broken and my head being slammed into the pavement.  I can honestly say my first reaction to being tailed would not be to jump my pursuer.  I can't speak to why Martin would have reacted the way he did if it went down the way Zimmerman claims.

One immutable fact remains about this case: none of us know for certain what happened that night.  Aside from bits and pieces of eyewitness accounts on a dark night, only two men truly know the sequence of events and one of them is dead.  Just because the deceased is black doesn't mean it was racially motivated nor is that a good reason to believe a guilty man was allowed to walk free.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: rebound on July 16, 2013, 09:44:30 am
Both men made poor choices (IMO) and one of them wound up dead.

Holding aside the racial (or not) overtones, I think it is the aspect of supposed aggression on the part of Zimmerman that makes this seem different than other similar crimes/occurrences.  I don’t think anybody doubts that had Zimmerman not had a gun, he would not have gotten out of the car and pursued Martin.   “Stand Your Ground” and similar laws were (IMO) intended to protect a person when they defend themselves when attacked,  not to empower an individual to intentionally put themselves in harms way and then claim self defense. 

No doubt the jury made the correct decision based on the current law, but that doesn’t make it seem right emotionally. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on July 16, 2013, 10:22:53 am
The only person that is saying that Martin started the fight is Zimmerman, problem is that no one else saw it start and reasonable doubt is easily reached.

Zimmerman had a history of choosing black men as being suspicious when doing the neighborhood watch. His neighbors had complained to neighborhood association and the police about his being too aggressive when he was patrolling. He has a documented legal history of violence with him making a plea to a charge of resisting arrest with violence and a restraining order granted to a former girlfriend. He lost a job as a bouncer for being “overly aggressive” and had a complaint filed against him at another job for racism.

I am not saying the jury did anything wrong, but Zimmerman’s story sounds stupid and fake and he has a well documented history of violence and lying and probably racism. But all he had to do was prove that it could reasonably be true.

He’s going down in flames in any civil lawsuit where the standard is only a preponderance of the evidence.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 16, 2013, 10:23:34 am
Holding aside the racial (or not) overtones, I think it is the aspect of supposed aggression on the part of Zimmerman that makes this seem different than other similar crimes/occurrences.  I don’t think anybody doubts that had Zimmerman not had a gun, he would not have gotten out of the car and pursued Martin.   “Stand Your Ground” and similar laws were (IMO) intended to protect a person when they defend themselves when attacked,  not to empower an individual to intentionally put themselves in harms way and then claim self defense. 

No doubt the jury made the correct decision based on the current law, but that doesn’t make it seem right emotionally. 


That's by far the most rational distillation I've read or heard so far about the reaction to the verdict.

We can argue for decades as to whether Zimmerman getting out of his vehicle was what provoked the incident or whether that in itself constitutes aggressive behavior.  Unless Zimmerman took a swing at Martin or pointed his gun at him, there was no reason for Martin to charge or take a swing at Zimmerman in the first place.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 16, 2013, 10:32:12 am


Zimmerman had a history of choosing black men as being suspicious when doing the neighborhood watch.


If predominantly black suspects were involved in the burglaries and theft in the neighborhood, that's hardly something of his creation.

Were you equally aware of Zimmerman's reputed history of tutoring minority children in his home?  Were you aware his great-grandfather is reportedly black?  Were you aware his date to the prom was black?  According to Zimmerman's father many of his son's closest friends and associates are black.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 16, 2013, 10:46:04 am
Let it go.

I don't live in Florida...don't know any of the people involved...don't own a hoodie or walk around with a gun...

Don't think about it. Ain't nuthin you can do about this case.

Let it go.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: AquaMan on July 16, 2013, 11:39:08 am
that is why there has been little comment around here and in Tulsa generally. We all feel like its wasted breath. It will happen here, then we'll be vested.

Curious reasoning people use to justify a murder. Like Conan says, just turn the tables. What if this had been a black man tailing a white guy along the street where skaters and skin heads had been stealing and called him out. The white guy responds with attitude, they fight and the black guy shoots the unarmed white guy through the heart. The only difference is that Conan has it wrong. The guy wouldn't be free, armed and writing a book.

Bottom line....don't go into gated neighborhoods unless you look like everyone else there, act like them and are carrying a weapon. They are just as dangerous as the hood.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on July 16, 2013, 11:41:16 am
No doubt the jury made the correct decision based on the current law, but that doesn’t make it seem right emotionally. 

A lawyer friend once told me something along the line of justice is the impartial application of the law.  It is not about being emotionally right or fair.  

Hopefully none of us will ever be on the "wrong side" of that process.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on July 16, 2013, 11:45:04 am
Bottom line....don't go into gated neighborhoods unless you look like everyone else there, act like them and are carrying a weapon. They are just as dangerous as the hood.

In the late 70s, my sister wanted to visit relatives in FL for the summer.  Mom and dad didn't want her driving there by herself.  I had the time available to go with her and then fly back.  I made sure I got my haircut before leaving Tulsa and driving through MS, LA, and AL. 


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: BKDotCom on July 16, 2013, 11:50:49 am
In the late 70s, my sister wanted to visit relatives in FL for the summer.  Mom and dad didn't want her driving there by herself.  I had the time available to go with her and then fly back.  I made sure I got my haircut before leaving Tulsa and driving through MS, LA, and AL. 

Mullet style?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: rebound on July 16, 2013, 11:54:33 am
A lawyer friend once told me something along the line of justice is the impartial application of the law.  It is not about being emotionally right or fair.  

Hopefully none of us will ever be on the "wrong side" of that process.

Just to clarify my position on my original post,  I don't think "justice" was done here, and I don't think this type of action by Zimmerman should be allowed.  I personally own several guns, I grew up on a farm and have more than once answered the door with one in my hand to make sure I was protected in case the person on the other side was up to something.  That said, if I grab a gun and actively seek a situation where I then use that gun - in defense or not - I am at fault and there should be some level of punishment.  But that's JMHO, and the law (as I understand it from listening to the trial coverage, etc) isn't written that way, and so Zimmerman gets off free.  I don't like it, but I understand it.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: swake on July 16, 2013, 12:09:27 pm
As a father this whole thing makes me sad because I have a 12 year old son that constantly wears a hoodie. I am not really very nervous over it because I know that even though he is half Indian he is unlikely to ever be looked at with fear or profiled with his pale skin and dirty blond hair. He looks more like me while my daughter looks more like my wife. My daughter is 17 and this incident probably helps explain why my daughter’s black friends usually dress so much better than her white friends. It’s safer.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Red Arrow on July 16, 2013, 12:19:39 pm
Mullet style?

No, nothing fancy.  Just a haircut that my dad would have told me to get it cut again if I had still been in High School in the 60s.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 16, 2013, 01:18:42 pm
As a father this whole thing makes me sad because I have a 12 year old son that constantly wears a hoodie. I am not really very nervous over it because I know that even though he is half Indian he is unlikely to ever be looked at with fear or profiled with his pale skin and dirty blond hair. He looks more like me while my daughter looks more like my wife. My daughter is 17 and this incident probably helps explain why my daughter’s black friends usually dress so much better than her white friends. It’s safer.

I wear hoodies in the winter time.  When it's a dark night, I doubt anyone can discern if I'm white, black or Hispanic.  However, I don't engage in behavior that would make anyone care whether I have a hoodie on or not.  If someone is walking down my street dressed like that I don't give it two thoughts.  If they are walking or crouching between houses, or sitting in an idling car I've never seen before, you bet it gets my attention.

Bottom line is, hoodies don't get people killed.  Wearing a hoodie and malingering around homes when it doesn't appear you belong in the neighborhood might get someone's interest up.  Attacking people who investigate that appearance and behavior can end up getting you killed...hoodie or not.  There's a teachable moment in that for all parents.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 16, 2013, 02:08:34 pm

No doubt the jury made the correct decision based on the current law, but that doesn’t make it seem right emotionally. 


They made the decision based on the case the prosecution presented....which was by an office that didn't want to be there in the first place.

Juror B37 said that two wanted manslaughter, one wanted murder, but then they all changed to acquittal...go figure.  How did 3:3 get to 6:0?  No way to tell unless others talk and 'explain' themselves.   I wouldn't if I were them...nobodies business what goes on in my mind!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 16, 2013, 02:11:10 pm

Bottom line....don't go into gated neighborhoods unless you look like everyone else there, act like them and are carrying a weapon. They are just as dangerous as the hood.

Anyone who ever thought different is just kidding themselves....


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 16, 2013, 02:11:16 pm
nobodies business what goes on in my mind!


My mind is a dangerous neighborhood, I try to stay out of it as much as possible!


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 16, 2013, 02:17:31 pm
In the late 70s, my sister wanted to visit relatives in FL for the summer.  Mom and dad didn't want her driving there by herself.  I had the time available to go with her and then fly back.  I made sure I got my haircut before leaving Tulsa and driving through MS, LA, and AL.  

You didn't have to go that far to worry about your hair - Roger's County around 1970 (through the 60's)...J B Hamby.  Routinely would 'catch' hitchhikers at the Rogers county line, take them to a barber in Claremore, have their heads shaved and set the back on the road at the county line at the other end of the county.  I always stayed away from Rogers county at that time.


Got himself killed playing Dirty Harry at a tag agency in Catoosa.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 18, 2013, 11:29:09 am
Tonight's Tulsa City Council meeting...


11. HEARING OF PUBLIC COMMENTS
 a. Public comment requesting a City Council resolution calling the U.S. Department of Justice and  Attorney General Eric Holder to press federal civil charges against George Zimmerman.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 18, 2013, 11:58:12 am
Tonight's Tulsa City Council meeting...


11. HEARING OF PUBLIC COMMENTS
 a. Public comment requesting a City Council resolution calling the U.S. Department of Justice and  Attorney General Eric Holder to press federal civil charges against George Zimmerman.

(http://images.wikia.com/cardfight/images/b/bc/2003013-godzilla_facepalm_godzilla_facepalm_face_palm_epic_fail_demotivational_poster_1245384435.jpg)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: guido911 on July 18, 2013, 12:35:27 pm
Tonight's Tulsa City Council meeting...


11. HEARING OF PUBLIC COMMENTS
 a. Public comment requesting a City Council resolution calling the U.S. Department of Justice and  Attorney General Eric Holder to press federal civil charges against George Zimmerman.

Who requested that?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on July 18, 2013, 12:49:09 pm
Who requested that?

Let me guess. Jack Henderson after consulting with Roscoe Turner.  ::)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on July 18, 2013, 09:56:53 pm
You didn't have to go that far to worry about your hair - Roger's County around 1970 (through the 60's)...J B Hamby.  Routinely would 'catch' hitchhikers at the Rogers county line, take them to a barber in Claremore, have their heads shaved and set the back on the road at the county line at the other end of the county.  I always stayed away from Rogers county at that time.

Got himself killed playing Dirty Harry at a tag agency in Catoosa.


After he billy-clubbed a bunch of Cascia Hall students there for a ball game, he sort of lost that tough-on-crime legitimacy.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 18, 2013, 09:58:48 pm
After he billy-clubbed a bunch of Cascia Hall students there for a ball game, he sort of lost that tough-on-crime legitimacy.

Karma got him and bit him in the butt big time.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on July 22, 2013, 12:20:57 pm
From Zero to Hero. Big George just doing his thing in Sanford.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-rescues-victims-florida-car-crash-article-1.1405783?localLinksEnabled=false


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on July 22, 2013, 12:35:55 pm
From Zero to Hero. Big George just doing his thing in Sanford.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-rescues-victims-florida-car-crash-article-1.1405783?localLinksEnabled=false

You know he's just a wannabe cop running amok around Sanford.  ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on September 10, 2013, 10:31:20 am
And another.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416446/Jeffrey-Babbit-dies-racist-hate-attack-stranger-Union-Square-New-York.html


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 10, 2013, 02:36:18 pm
And another.


Another murderer running amok.


Looks like Zimmerman isn't the persecuted little choir boy the FLA DA wanted him to be...waving a gun at his soon to be ex-wife?  First the cops said they got a gun, then they said there wasn't one, then I heard they said there was one, but wasn't 'recovered'...more waffles than the Waffle House.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Ed W on September 10, 2013, 05:31:23 pm
Another murderer running amok.


Looks like Zimmerman isn't the persecuted little choir boy the FLA DA wanted him to be...waving a gun at his soon to be ex-wife?  First the cops said they got a gun, then they said there wasn't one, then I heard they said there was one, but wasn't 'recovered'...more waffles than the Waffle House.



Wait a minute. George was feeling threatened. His wife had a big, scary lawyer, so George did the only thing he could do under the circumstances. He drove to her house and confronted her with a pistol in his hand just to defend himself from the wife and attorney. Good lord! They could have waved a restraining order at him, so the only recourse he had was the pistol.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 10, 2013, 07:18:14 pm
Wait a minute. George was feeling threatened. His wife had a big, scary lawyer, so George did the only thing he could do under the circumstances. He drove to her house and confronted her with a pistol in his hand just to defend himself from the wife and attorney. Good lord! They could have waved a restraining order at him, so the only recourse he had was the pistol.

Pretty much....



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on September 27, 2013, 07:28:55 am
And another. It doesn't get much more clear than this one.  ::)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2434691/North-Carolina-Wal-Mart-shooter-chose-victims-race-shot-whites.html


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on September 27, 2013, 07:30:32 am
And another. It doesn't get much more clear than this one.  ::)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2434691/North-Carolina-Wal-Mart-shooter-chose-victims-race-shot-whites.html

DB, I implore you.

Please don't turn into another Gaspar...


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: CharlieSheen on September 27, 2013, 08:26:10 am
DB, I implore you.

Please don't turn into another Gaspar...

There was once a time you probably would have said Guido.  How far we have come.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on September 27, 2013, 08:34:44 am
DB, I implore you.

Please don't turn into another Gaspar...

Nah. Just a slow day at the office.  ;D


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: nathanm on September 27, 2013, 02:33:39 pm
There was once a time you probably would have said Guido.  How far we have come.

The post wasn't angry and spittle flecked enough for that to have been a valid comparison. ;)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on March 07, 2014, 01:42:09 pm
Will this guy's 15 minutes get over already!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2575787/Orlando-gun-canceled-GEORGE-ZIMMERMAN-named-featured-guest.html


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on July 15, 2014, 05:21:37 am
Karma's a grumble.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-finances-20140627,0,7683811.story


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Vashta Nerada on January 20, 2015, 11:26:45 pm
And another. It doesn't get much more clear than this one.  ::)


Again we ask if you can fall back on "Stand Your Ground" when you are the armed agressor charging at someone.


Three days have passed since an off-duty Department of Veterans Affairs security guard from Oklahoma City fatally shot a man outside a downtown Tulsa apartment complex, and officials say the Tulsa Police Department’s investigation is in its preliminary stages.

Andrew Bryiant, 33, shot 23-year-old Rodney Walker around 5:15 p.m. Friday outside the Renaissance Uptown apartment complex, at the intersection of 11th Street and Denver Avenue, homicide detective Sgt. Dave Walker said.

Rodney Walker died at Saint Francis Hospital about an hour later, according to a news release issued Friday night.
“It’s an unfortunate set of circumstances,” Dave Walker told the Tulsa World on Monday. “In this situation, (we would ask), ‘Did the officer have a right to be there doing what he was doing?’ and ‘What was in the officer’s mind at the time he took the action that he took?’ ”

Bryiant told police he was driving to the Garth Brooks concert at the BOK Center with his family when he saw what appeared to be a domestic disturbance outside the apartment complex and got out of his car to intervene. He said that he identified himself as a law enforcement officer, which started the altercation with Rodney Walker, the news release states.

Bryiant said he shot Rodney Walker after seeing the man appear to grab for a gun that was in his waistband. Dave Walker has said Bryiant did not use his service weapon.
The gun Rodney Walker had was not reported stolen, and detectives are piecing together that weapon’s ownership history, the detective said.

“By all accounts he was doing something illegal,” Dave Walker said.

Rodney Walker’s surviving friends and family have questioned whether Bryiant had the right to get involved in an alleged crime that occurred outside his jurisdiction and whether the state’s “stand your ground” law could apply to the case.
Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler said Monday that in use-of-force cases, prosecutors look at where the altercation took place, whether the person who used the force was protecting another person, and whether the person was protecting himself.

Under Oklahoma law, a person who is attacked in any place that person has a right to be has the right to stand his ground in order to protect himself or another person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

“If it’s an officer-involved shooting, we’re going to be looking at things like any other civilian might be confronted with,” Kunzweiler said.
“If there was a threat of deadly force against the shooter, we have to look at whether there’s enough evidence to support that person’s version.
“If someone is coming at you or pulling a weapon out, that changes the circumstances significantly.”


QuinTeisha Rice, Rodney Walker’s girlfriend, disputed parts of Bryiant’s account in an interview with the Tulsa World on Sunday.
The pair had been dating since the end of November and lived together at the nearby Parkwood Apartments, at 501 W. 11th St., and they were walking by the complex when they began arguing, she said.

Rice alleged that Bryiant did not identify himself as a police officer before firing at Rodney Walker and that there was a short time between when he got out of his vehicle and when he opened fire.
“I was yelling (at Bryiant), ‘No, no, that’s my boyfriend,’” Rice said.

“Rodney didn’t pull his gun until the man walked up on him. He was trying to walk away, and (Bryiant) walked up on him. He didn’t know who this man was.”

Rice said Rodney Walker had never assaulted her in the past and that she “couldn’t believe” that Tulsa police didn’t release her statement on the matter to the media.
“We were getting into an altercation, but it’s not right to come in, see (Rodney Walker’s) gun and just shoot him,” Rice said.

“He didn’t pull out his gun to hurt (Bryiant). He pulled the gun to try to protect himself.”
Although Rodney Walker can’t provide police with his version of events, Dave Walker said that so far the circumstances appear to show that the man was being violent toward his girlfriend.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/questions-remain-in-tulsa-shooting-by-oklahoma-city-va-officer/article_3da2d44a-beb8-5bfb-a30c-668577f11bda.html




"As soon as he got out of his car he had the gun pointed at Rodney. Rodney was trying to walk away. Our argument was over. We were already separated when the officer got out of his car," Rice said.

The attorney representing Bryiant released a statement that said, "Mr. Bryiant is cooperating fully. No further comments will be made until the brave men and women of Tulsa County law enforcement have finished their investigation."


http://bcove.me/5q4jk16w


(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/ba/5baa9b34-1bc8-5e35-a2d8-7b4c9888262f/54bb20114e970.image.jpg)





Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 21, 2015, 07:54:08 am
Again we ask if you can fall back on "Stand Your Ground" when you are the armed agressor charging at someone.





Part two;  are you a cop doing the aggression?

a. Yes - anything goes.

b. No - No.


Or do you have family connections to Tim Harris, DA office and Kurt Glasco, judge?

a. Yes - anything goes again - you can get a casual admonishment about attempted murder.  Yeah, I know they called it feloniously pointing a firearm - but when you do that, pull the trigger and only reason it doesn't shoot is because you forgot to chamber a round... that's attempted murder.  Thanks judge Glassco!  We can all sleep better at night....

b. No - going to prison for years.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2353817&db=Tulsa


 11-17-2010    CTPASS    -    EATON, MARK ALLEN    76493898    Nov 17 2010 5:30:47:190PM    -    $ 0.00
   JUDGE GLASSCO: DEFENDANT PRESENT, NOT IN CUSTODY, REPRESENTED BY DAN KRAMER. STATE REPRESENTED BY ERIK GRAYLESS. COURT REPORTER IS CINDY WORKMAN. DEFENDANT WAIVES JURY TRIAL AND NON JURY TRIAL AND ENTER A PLEA OF GUILTY WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF A RECOMMENDATION FROM THE STATE. COURT ACCEPTS THE GUILTY PLEA AND PASSES SENTENCING TO 01/04/2011 AT 9:30AM, ROOM 401 WITH PSI. DEFENDANT EXECUTES PERSONAL RECOGNIZANCE BOND. PREVIOUS BOND EXONERATED.


But then, wait...!!   We can't have that...!!  He is a member of the "entitlement" class.... Daddy got friends??   He is a 'good' boy and never would hurt anyone... well, except the two kids he pointed an assault rifle at and pulled the trigger....  only to find he was too drunk to have actually pulled the bolt to chamber a round...  Oh, my...what to do?  Go back in the house and get the Glock that is already loaded AND chambered and return to try to finish the job.  Only to find the kids have scattered.  But that's ok - now can continue to just kinda "white trash" the neighborhood and make it an undesirable place for others to live.  Plus, can still shoot up the back yard at all the top holidays, like 4th of July and New Years!!


 01-24-2011    DEFERRED    1    EATON, MARK ALLEN    77050535    Jan 25 2011 2:00:15:090PM    -    $ 0.00
   JUDGE GLASSCO: DEFENDANT PRESENT, NOT IN CUSTODY, REPRESENTED BY DAN KRAMER. STATE REPRESENTED BY MICHELLE KEELY. COURT REPORTER IS CINDY WORKMAN. CASE CALLED FOR FINDING AND SENTENCING.

COUNT 1: COURT WITHHOLDS A FINDING OF GUILT AND DEFERS JUDGMENT AND SENTENCING FOR TEN (10) YEARS, UNTIL 01/05/2021 AT 9:30AM, ROOM 401. COUNT ONE IS TO RUN CONCURRENT WITH COUNT TWO. THE DEFENDANT IS TO BE UNDER THE RULES AND CONDITIONS OF PROBATION AND PAROLE WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS. THE DEFENDANT IS ASSESSED A $250 COURT FUND, $250 VICTIM'S COMPENSATION ASSESSMENT, $250 PSI FEE, PLUS COSTS.

COUNT 2: COURT WITHHOLDS A FINDING OF GUILT AND DEFERS JUDGMENT AND SENTENCING FOR TEN (10) YEARS, UNTIL 01/05/2021 AT 9:30AM, ROOM 401. COUNT TWO IS TO RUN CONCURRENT WITH COUNT ONE. THE DEFENDANT IS ASSESSED A $100 COURT FUND, $100 VICTIM'S COMPENSATION ASSESSMENT, PLUS COSTS.

DEFENDANT EXECUTES RULE 8 FORM. DEFENDANT ADVISED OF APPEAL RIGHTS. DEFERRED ORDER OF PROBATION ISSUED. BOND EXONERATED.




I notice the OSCN network has a "new, improved" website now - to all appearances specifically designed to make it more difficult to get information about court related issues.  Obfuscation and blurring to protect the system....



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on January 21, 2015, 09:01:50 am
And who is this Mark Allen Eaton fella?  ???


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 21, 2015, 11:33:13 am
And who is this Mark Allen Eaton fella?  ???


Guy I have talked about in the past who tried to kill a couple of kids who were standing in front yard of their relatives house - parents are acquaintances of the family.  And collusion between Tim Harris office, judge Kurt Glassco, and Eaton's obviously well connected family got him a "softball" admonition of "don't do that again" for 10 years and we will just let bygones be bygones.

From the "strong, law and order" District Attorney's and Glassco judge offices.... What do you suppose would happen if the guy had not been 'connected' and was not one of the 'entitled'??  Or black??

Granted - the kids were just hanging around in "their" yard...minding their own business....not making noise - just talking to each other - but they were smoking cigarettes...  So, obviously they deserved to die according to the drunken deranged psychosis of Eaton...  Who am I to argue with that..??

Note - sarcasm alert for that last sentence in case anyone missed it.



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: DolfanBob on January 21, 2015, 01:06:46 pm
Oh I gotcha. A high price Attorney can get you almost the same thing too. Just depends on who he plays golf with or dinners and palms greased in the wheel of justice.
I learned the hard way in my divorce what a low price Attorney will get you i.e. one that will literally take new tires, T.V.s or other merchandise as payment. I have a hard time believing he still has a practice. If you can call it that. Not to name names, but his last name is the same as a popular European language you can learn.  ::)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 21, 2015, 01:53:08 pm
Oh I gotcha. A high price Attorney can get you almost the same thing too. Just depends on who he plays golf with or dinners and palms greased in the wheel of justice.
I learned the hard way in my divorce what a low price Attorney will get you i.e. one that will literally take new tires, T.V.s or other merchandise as payment. I have a hard time believing he still has a practice. If you can call it that. Not to name names, but his last name is the same as a popular European language you can learn.  ::)


In spite of the known issues with the DA's office, and Glassco, we keep electing them or cronies.... there is no hope for this state....



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on January 21, 2015, 05:40:31 pm
In spite of the known issues with the DA's office, and Glassco, we keep electing them or cronies.... there is no hope for this state....

We didnt really have any choices when we elected Kunzweiler, did we?

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss


“By all accounts he was doing something illegal,” Dave Walker said.
Sounds like the investigation is over.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: TulsaRufnex on February 23, 2015, 10:13:10 pm
(http://urbanintellectuals.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/zimmerman6-mug-shots.png)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Conan71 on February 24, 2015, 10:30:18 am
(http://urbanintellectuals.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/zimmerman6-mug-shots.png)

What’s the white Hispanic done now?


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: Hoss on May 11, 2015, 12:48:30 pm
This dude can't let his fifteen minutes expire, can he?  Although it appears that he wasn't the one doing the shooting, at first glance.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/11/george-zimmerman-shooting/27125587/


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 11, 2015, 01:40:04 pm
Anyone can be involved in an incident for any or no reason. 2 incidents. 3 even.

But when you get arrested for shooting people, beating up women, carrying firearms, and are involved in several other known incidents within a few years... Your probably a large part of the problem.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 11, 2015, 09:52:04 pm
Heard about the Hattiesburg killing of two cops.... just wondering where the riots and outrage over gratuitous murder is for this case?   Just curious....we seem to be missing an Al Sharpton component in this one....



Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 12, 2015, 09:38:07 am
Heard about the Hattiesburg killing of two cops.... just wondering where the riots and outrage over gratuitous murder is for this case?   Just curious....we seem to be missing an Al Sharpton component in this one....

There usually are not riots for murders. There are almost never riots for murders that result in a swift investigation, transparency, and arrests of bad people within days. What would people riot about?

Now, if police officers were regularly abused and even killed, and no one did anything about it - then you would see the police out in force demanding action. Instead, violence like this against police is exceptionally rare, about 40 per year. That's down from 120+ in the 1970s.

The fact that there are tens of millions of criminals, drug cartels, and physchos in the USA who can get guns at anytime, and 800,000 law enforcement who are usually very easy to find, and officer deaths by firearms are that rare is a miracle. We expect bad people to do bad things, we often expect the worst based on TV, movies, and media. But in reality, its fairly rare.

However, we expect more from police than for criminals. We expect them to protect and serve, we expect professionalism and restraint. Yet police shoot and kill someone more than once a day. Hundreds more each day have their civil rights violated. In any conflict where the good guys slaughter 10x the number of people than the bad guys - someone is going to get upset.

Finally, protesting individual criminals is utterly pointless. The point of protesting is to have your voice heard and effect change. Redress directed at the government or some organization. Hence, when the government is perceived to be a bad actor - there are protests. When some low level criminal murders a police officer, we recognize it for the crime it is- but there is no point protesting a death row inmate.


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: rebound on May 12, 2015, 10:13:46 am
...We expect bad people to do bad things, we often expect the worst based on TV, movies, and media. But in reality, its fairly rare.

However, we expect more from police than for criminals. We expect them to protect and serve, we expect professionalism and restraint. Yet police shoot and kill someone more than once a day. Hundreds more each day have their civil rights violated. In any conflict where the good guys slaughter 10x the number of people than the bad guys - someone is going to get upset.

Well said.   We (unfortunately) expect bad people to do bad things, so there is no cause to protest it.  Be (should) hold the police and other official agencies to a higher standard.  Any hint of impropriety - and there have been plenty of hints recently - should rightfully get people upset.

(Sorry for the updates. I can't seem to type this morning.)


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: patric on May 12, 2015, 10:52:20 am
There usually are not riots for murders. There are almost never riots for murders that result in a swift investigation, transparency, and arrests of bad people within days. What would people riot about?

Now, if police officers were regularly abused and even killed, and no one did anything about it - then you would see the police out in force demanding action. Instead, violence like this against police is exceptionally rare, about 40 per year. That's down from 120+ in the 1970s.

The fact that there are tens of millions of criminals, drug cartels, and physchos in the USA who can get guns at anytime, and 800,000 law enforcement who are usually very easy to find, and officer deaths by firearms are that rare is a miracle. We expect bad people to do bad things, we often expect the worst based on TV, movies, and media. But in reality, its fairly rare.

However, we expect more from police than for criminals. We expect them to protect and serve, we expect professionalism and restraint. Yet police shoot and kill someone more than once a day. Hundreds more each day have their civil rights violated. In any conflict where the good guys slaughter 10x the number of people than the bad guys - someone is going to get upset.

Finally, protesting individual criminals is utterly pointless. The point of protesting is to have your voice heard and effect change. Redress directed at the government or some organization. Hence, when the government is perceived to be a bad actor - there are protests. When some low level criminal murders a police officer, we recognize it for the crime it is- but there is no point protesting a death row inmate.

Unfortunately, once you figure in the agitation from NYPD's union, mix in some crazy Sheriff Joe Arpaio and Milwaukee's Sheriff Clarke, and top it off with:

According to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, an average of one officer in the U.S. dies every 60 hours.
http://www.paducahsun.com/news/local/051215_PS_Police_Memorial

... you would think it was a siege, even though the FBI says the average is declining (despite last years rebound from a previous record low).
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-report-51-law-enforcement-officers-killed-2014-n357206


Title: Re: "If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon."
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 12, 2015, 10:08:04 pm

There usually are not riots for murders. There are almost never riots for murders that result in a swift investigation, transparency, and arrests of bad people within days. What would people riot about?

Yeah...kind of what I was getting at.  Doesn't make sense.  Much like it doesn't make sense to have riots for the other direction.  Protests, agitation, and even civil disobedience (emphasis on the civil).  But not riots.  So when it does happen that a cop is killed (just as bad as unjustified cop killing of someone), it is disingenuous of Sharpton, et al to ignore it completely and miss an opportunity for an 'object lesson' commentary in the other direction.  He should be condemning violence of all kinds in both directions.  But that isn't what we see/hear.

Now, if police officers were regularly abused and even killed, and no one did anything about it - then you would see the police out in force demanding action. Instead, violence like this against police is exceptionally rare, about 40 per year. That's down from 120+ in the 1970s.

Sense of perspective moment here - true, there are very few cops killed each year - out of that 800,000 or so.  Taken individually, and viewed one at at time the 40 is just as bad as the 1,000+ "civilians" killed improperly by cops each years - not the justified ones.  Total of 1,040 is just a tragedy.

The fact that there are tens of millions of criminals, drug cartels, and physchos in the USA who can get guns at anytime, and 800,000 law enforcement who are usually very easy to find, and officer deaths by firearms are that rare is a miracle. We expect bad people to do bad things, we often expect the worst based on TV, movies, and media. But in reality, its fairly rare.

I am presuming a little hyperbole here... tens of millions??   You wouldn't be lumping the tens of millions of law abiding gun owners in that would you?


However, we expect more from police than for criminals. We expect them to protect and serve, we expect professionalism and restraint. Yet police shoot and kill someone more than once a day. Hundreds more each day have their civil rights violated. In any conflict where the good guys slaughter 10x the number of people than the bad guys - someone is going to get upset.

People should be upset - WAY more than they appear to be.  Cannot really understand that except for the tendency to people to just not even think about this kind of thing unless it happens to directly impact them - affecting them or someone in their family or circle of friends.  And it's not just cops doing unjustified violence against people - the court system itself is wracked with similar problems of what is "correct action" - the full weight of the court too often lands on people like a ton of bricks, way out of proportion to the severity of the crime.  I remember a case a few years ago of a young mother who was sentenced to 15 years just for possession of 1 joint.  Or at the other extreme, gives preferential treatment to members of the "special" people group - I suspect Judge Glassco and everyone in Tim Harris' office would have different attitudes about a perpetrator if one of their kids or grandkids was attacked by a drunk criminal trying to kill one of them.  Bet that assailant wouldn't get preferential, "good buddy" consideration and treatment - like is given to the "Chosen Ones".


Finally, protesting individual criminals is utterly pointless. The point of protesting is to have your voice heard and effect change. Redress directed at the government or some organization. Hence, when the government is perceived to be a bad actor - there are protests. When some low level criminal murders a police officer, we recognize it for the crime it is- but there is no point protesting a death row inmate.

I agree.  Exercise in futility with no real meaning.  Circles back around to the start - Sharpton, et al.