The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

A crane is at the Fintube site today. Anyone know what's going on there?

Price of steel is high.

It has served as a staging area for IDL construction.  Possibly related?

Where is this?

About 100 N Lansing just East of OSU Tulsa

(http://cbk1.google.com/cbk?output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv&thumb=2&thumbfov=120&ll=36.162416,-95.981410&cbll=36.162408,-95.981370&thumbpegman=1&w=300&h=118)

http://www.planitulsa.org/files/Draft_%20Pres_Downtown_Downtown_Master_Plan_Crowley2_12.08.pdf (http://www.planitulsa.org/files/Draft_%20Pres_Downtown_Downtown_Master_Plan_Crowley2_12.08.pdf)

Ah very good.  I know exactly where that is.

No clue about the crane, though.

I am hoping for another drive-thru bank.

I'd be game for that but only if there's room for an AT&T or Cricket store and a nail salon.

What no custard or "church"?

I heard Blake Ewing was building some sort of venue, hall concert place...not sure where....guess there are perks to being in city hall...

Last I heard it was supposed to become a school. someday

What difference does that make?  He's managed to get permits for and to open quite a few businesses prior to becoming a city councilor.

OH!  I GET IT! They gave him free property and the city will pay for the entirety of the project because he's a councilor!  D'OH!  How could I be so slow?  ::)

Seersaly?  Man, I's gots to get me a counsulursheeup.

I'm not opening a "venue, hall concert place."

I'm not doing anything at Evans Fintube.

Yes you are!!! I read it on here so it must be true. Besides, what do you know...

I toured the site a couple of years ago with a developer interested in turning it into another residential experiment, retaining all of the existing steel structure and incorporating some modern architecture, but it was deemed unfeasable. I doubt he is taking another stab at it. 

I am willing to bet on parking structure.  The steel on site would just about pay for it, not to mention the gantries.

I know this is a tad off topic, but it's in the vicinity. What is the deal with all the vacant land north of 44 between Main & Detroit. I am not a Tulsa history expert, but I always assumed they were more than likely homes before the Race Riots. You can still see sidewalk and driveway cutouts at the curbs so it was definitely single family residential. Has this never been redeveloped out of respect or out of lack of interest. Or does Oklahoma State own this? I only ask, because with the rise of the Brady district I would assume this land would look much more attractive.

Also has there ever been a discussion on this board about removing one of the legs of the IDL? I have done all this reading suggesting similar things in other cities and it's always a good thing for the city. In particular I think they should remove the eastern leg (75) and let the East End and The Pearl hook up in the future. Now it doesn't seem very plausible, but I think in the future it could be. Thoughts?

Regarding the Fin Tube site, it has the district disadvantage of being completely disconnected from everything around it. There is only (currently) one point of entry (Archer/Lansing) and it is completely bound by a highway and railroad tracks. I could possibly see some sort of affordable housing, but that's about it. The location reminds me somewhat of something they did in Fort Worth just east of downtown called Hillside. They are small duplex/triplex things with secured parking that was a pretty decrepit neighborhood before.

Removing the eastern leg of the IDL would literally (yes, literally) take an act of congress, as that segment AND the south segment is designated interstate highway (I-444, even though it is not signed as such).  Although on some maps it does show up.

http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-444_ok.html

This is an excellent question.  I've wandered around in there and it's a wasteland.  Even though you'd think the land would worth a good deal for development.  What gives, TNF?

  I think that land is owned by OSU Tulsa for expansion of their campus, perhaps campus housing as one idea, sometime in the year 2310.

Didn't realize that the eastern leg was part of the interstate system. I always just assumed it was state highway 75. I figured removing the north or west legs would take an act of God, not just Congress.

That's too bad if that's the case. Could have been something special. If it is the case I figure sometime around 2310 it will finally become a parking lot.

Actually, I think TDA owns a fair amount of that land as well.  That area, to my knowledge, has not sat fallow since the race riots.  It was part of a very seedy neighborhood full of prostitution and drugs.  Sort of like the U.S. Congress.

I want to say most of that area was claimed for urban renewal in the early to mid 1980's and flattened.

That is what I heard.  I believe Carlton Place has some memory of what happened.  "Crime and drugs so bad they emptied it and tour it all down." or something like that.

Main & Haskell was the most notorious intersection in Tulsa at that time.  Juice joints, craps games, street walkers, dope, you name it.  Not the sort of place you wanted to run out of gas after dark, or even in daylight.

This land is controlled by a combination of TDA & UCAT Trust (University Center at Tulsa).  It was claimed through essentially eminent domain due to the aforementioned undesirable activities.  The "excuse" was the land would  be used for a higher education institution that would provide an option for a bachelor degree from a public university.  As part of the set up Langston was afforded protection of their existing offerings in the market and all other public universities save OU & OSU are not allowed to operate within a certain mile of the land.  This is why NSU is in BA and in fact if they were on the other side of the street they'd be in violation of the law.

The buildings that are now OSU-Tulsa originally housed programs for OU & OSU.  When OU had the opportunity to take over what is now Schusterman they did so, and essentially abandoned the UCAT model.

As a resident of north Tulsa this land is a bit of a hot button for me.  You are correct in that the land is ripe for development but we continue to let it sit fallow.  The view from the property are amazing.

RDJ, I suspect something really spectacular will happen with this land in the next 10 years.  Once the Brady District is mostly redeveloped, it will help lend itself to some great housing or even office space/high rise housing on the higher pieces of property next to the IDL.

I sure hope it happens.  It's going to take OSU/UCAT agreeing to make it happen.  As long as they continue to spout a desire to develop the campus west across Cincinnati nothing will happen.

I'd love to see housing developed that would be targeted for grad students.

I think it would be cool if at least some of the OSU/UCAT/TDA land would be developed in a manner like the Fall Creek Place Neighborhood (http://www.fallcreekplace.com/index.php?module=content&func=view&pid=1) in Indianapolis.  It was a blighted neighborhood that was redeveloped with a mix of affordable and market rate housing options most with traditional style architecture (i.e. traditional to that part of the city with front porches, detached garages, lots of different colors, etc.).  It would be cool to see Denver Avenue style of houses built there. 

If access over the RR tracks can be addressed, it seems like it makes more sense for OSU Tulsa to grow into the Evans Fintube site than towards the residential areas to the west.

But, sense Blake Ewing is building a venue, hall concert place at the Evans Fintube site, I guess it's too late.

Blake should use the train tracks to get people to and from his venue.

Well you know, he's in City Hall now so that means pretty much he can have rail road ROW and can probably even build his own off ramp from the IDL w/o permission from the Feds.

Must be nice to be an all powerful GOB.

You guys know Shadows is copying and pasting these posts as proof of his thoughts on another forum.

Dewey Bartlett channels the Great White Devil.

Great Plains was a cover for Roswell

I feel like I'm missing out on something. Maybe I'd get it if I had gone to Blake's rave last night.

I thought it was the Great White Buffalo...wait, wrong meme.

So this venue is already open? I knew that crane was up to something.

Oh, did I say that out loud? Oops.

 :-[

From what I've been told by people here in Stilly, the regents just won't come through with the money.  They have a 20 year plan which Never really seems to get started.  I think the element that would really, REALLY cement downtowns success would be a 4 year residential school right there.  Add in the OU/TU medschool in the blue dome and you've got one jumping side of downtown. 

In fact, I would like to see if the city can petition to have OSU-Tulsa offer a film school option, tieing in with what Blake and the Mayor are trying to do with the film industry.  Having a film major available at the OSU campus would be great.  We also would see alot of beautiful shots of our beautiful city.  Any thoughts, Blake?

Sorry for the slow reply. I've been busy washing every brick in my new concert venue.

I'm not sure if this is what you're asking for, but here goes:

I agree whole-heartedly that the area north of the IDL would be incredible for a housing project targeted at students. A downtown circulator connecting that housing area, TCC, and the TU/OU facility would be convenient and well used. Also, let's not forget Langston in these conversations.

Also, while I agree that a four-year would be nice...and even ideal, I wouldn't count on that (at least any time soon). I'd hope instead that our current colleges continue to grow and improve. We can have something special, even if it's just with special programs and a really nice partnership between TCC and the others.

A key component in the growth of a film industry in Tulsa would be an improved presence of film related coursework at our higher-ed institutions. If you can produce trained crew to work on films, you're taking care of one of the biggest problems for the larger film projects. If our local philanthropists would gift some $$ directly to those programs for the purchase of film equipment like tracks and cranes, etc. The colleges could loan/rent that equipment out to small budget filmmakers. This happens in some other cities and is quite successful as I understand.

Add to that a sound stage, editing booths, etc (which could be shared by our colleges) and place those things at Evans Fintube and we're on our way. I think that site could house any number of arts, creativity, innovation related programs. Look at what OKC has done with ACM at UCO. You want your city to be cool? Accommodate creative people every chance you get. They make places better.

The big train yard that sits between OSU and Fintube can be moved. The intermodal facility that has been proposed near the airport could be the new home of that...which would allow a better connectedness between the college area and Fintube.

That rail line was proposed in Jack Crowley's Downtown Masterplan. As you may remember, he had the first stretch of Light Rail going from Fintube to 23rd and Jackson, right along that corridor....so yes, theoretically, we can (and will someday) use that track to get people to and from my venue. =)

Had I been drinking when I read this, I would be cleaning my keyboard right now.

OKCCC has been very successful with their film program.  They have a large sound stage and a lot of equipment that they rent out to folks.  I know of at least one band that have used the facility to shoot music videos.  They brought in a national director and cinematographer to do it but use all local crew and equipment.

Blake, what are the chances TCC could develop a film program within the Center for Creativity?

----

The issue with the expansion of OSU-Tulsa as far as the regents are concerned is the Stillwater campus student population is stagnant, at best.  They are very scared adding residences to the Tulsa campus will leach students off Stillwater, rather than adding new students to the system.  I tend to agree.  Now, taking my crimson colored glasses off, as a Tulsa HS kid would you rather stay in Tulsa, live downtown and attend OSU for four years or go to Stillwater?  There are certainly kids that will always want the college town experience (Greek system, small town, etc, etc) but I believe a sizable subset exists that would love to attend all four years in downtown Tulsa, but they don't want the first two to be TCC.

I was very close to attending Columbia in Chicago and one of the biggest reasons was the chance to live and study in an urban center.  I think OSU Tulsa could become a similar (albeit much smaller) scenario.

Thats what I have found really frustrating over the last few years.  I tried to do some research looking at student enrollment numbers for the Tulsa and Stillwater campuses.  It did appear to me that the Tulsa campus (and the other Tulsa colleges) was growing while the Stillwater campus was indeed stagnating.  And from what I gather, a huge chunk of the students who go to Stillwater come from the Tulsa area.  

  Imho the college should have been enlarging the Tulsa campus with a passion for the writing is on the wall on how the new "college scene" aka young folk wanting to live in cities, older people like me who already have careers,families, etc. (the ever growing, large cadre of non traditional students) but that need to go to college and cant up and move to some podunk town.  But instead they just might be living in fear/denial of what how an expanded Tulsa campus might hurt the Stillwater enrollment.  

  Meanwhile... whats been happening?  They have been pumping literally hundreds of millions of dollars into the Stillwater campus.... and to what effect?  Stagnation while people here in Tulsa beg for... anything more, or simply leave Tulsa for other places and also are not choosing Stillwater over some more attractive school and campus in another state.  

  And any more its not just competition from other states for Tulsa area students, but also from NSU BA, TU as it continues to improve and grow, OU, etc.

   If they don't grow their offerings here in Tulsa, someone else will, it will just hurt OSU system wide (that includes Stillwater), natives will be more likely top leave the area all together, and new people will more likely choose not to move here.

I hate to break the bad new to people but the enrollment numbers at OSU-Stillwater are far from stagnant. That's about 5 years in the past in thinking. I would look up the press releases from the last few years but I don't have the time. OSU has had record freshman enrollment the last 3-4 years. In the long range plan they had actually planned to tear down Kerr-Drummond (the two tall ugly dorms) and replace it with a residential parking garage for the new dorms (The Village, Stinchcomb, and others) but they had to relocate where they are building it because Kerr-Drummond is now at about 100% occupancy rate and just 3 years ago it was below 40% with several of the other dorms having lower occupancy rates. They've actually come up with plans to convert Iba Hall back into dorms because the occupancy rate on campus is nearing capacity. A lot of the leadership feel that the enrollment on the Stillwater campus will hit 30,000 before the 20 year plan is completed and the enrollment growth is on pace for that. Most of the new freshman classes have been 12-15% larger than the previous, and I believe campus enrollment is past the 22,000 mark this year. There have been proposals for 2 new apartment complexes in Stillwater which in the planning process with the city and 2 others have recently completed construction. The Links Golf Club doubled in size in the last 2 years along with Stillwater Flats right next to campus.

https://news.okstate.edu/index.php/press-releases/497-record-enrollment-at-osu
This shows the 2010-2011 enrollment info ^^  One thing that did shock me some was OSU-OKC has over 7,000 students while OSU-Tulsa has under 2,000. Sorry but that's very pathetic  >:( and I blame this more on Tulsa leadership than Stillwater or State leadership. Where is the city leaders that should be out there talking to donors and OSU leadership about building projects in Tulsa? For pete sake we almost let OSU Medical Center close! A new building every 10 years in Vision 2025 proposals is not going to cut it. The apathy this community here has towards higher education is really sad. Like I said before in another thread the leadership in Stillwater will not really look much into expanding the programs in Tulsa they have their hands full with projects in Stillwater. They need someone in their ear constantly saying "Hey we've got someone interested in donating money to a building or program in Tulsa". The amount of money following into the Stillwater campus in this economy is nothing short of astonishing. I will say this though, what's good for Stillwater is good for Tulsa. Afterall the biggest segment of college graduates in Tulsa are from OSU.

What this city really needs to focus on is the growth of GRADUATE programs. Right now the options for that type of higher education is really bad for a city our size. Also, the idea of adding something like the film majors would be a great idea. I could see the leadership in Stillwater getting behind unique programs, and programs that don't necessarily fit well in Stillwater.

Some goals we need to have for OSU-Tulsa:
1. Build a graduate school building here and expand programs that are offered (Add Architecture, Arts, Urban Planning, Entrepreneurship, etc)
2. Build a library
3. Expand the Medical School
4. Add technology majors and programs that can encourage spin off companies
5. Add new majors like a film program (think outside of the box on programs that aren't in Stillwater but would flourish in Tulsa)
6. Student Housing (so many people on here want this so badly but at this point the student numbers downtown don't really support a student housing project that would be worth wasting energy on)


If we want to have a full service university in the heart of downtown, we need to look at a way to convert TCC-Metro into a four year university (Something like Portland State). Look at adding undergraduate programs that wouldn't leach away from OU and OSU and integrate the TCC-Metro campus into OSU-Tulsa and the new four year university. Allow TCC to operate offices out of both and use classrooms out of both campuses. This would allow a better free flow of students in Tulsa and would do wonders for our graduation rate of college graduates.

There is absolutely NO reason why there shouldn't be 20,000-30,000 students downtown between both campuses. Tulsa has the benefit of being centered between very large population centers (Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, Kansas City, St Louis, Memphis, Little Rock, and Denver are all with in a pretty easy days drive). Look at Oregon for example, they have a similar population to us yet they have several much larger university than us. They have Univ of Oregon, Oregon State Univ, Portland State Univ, Portland Univ to name a few along many others. We have OSU, OU, TU, and OCU. How many large population centers are within a driving distance to Oregon? (Seattle and San Fran) Granted they still have the ability to recruit heavily out of South California, but we have equal opportunity out of Texas to have similar numbers to potential students.

This may have been posted and I missed it but I drove by yesterday and the crane is for loading and unloading the larger size temp highway barriers. Presumably for the 244 construction around 169.

OSU-Stillwater enrollment:
2008- 20,756
2009- 20,831
2010- 21,763
2011- 22,441

OSU-Stillwater New Freshmen:
2008- 3,073
2009- 3,148
2010- 3,554
2011- 3,896

OSU-Tulsa enrollment:
2008- 2,012
2009- 2,014
2010- 1,759
2011- 1,820

http://vpaf.okstate.edu/IRIM/StudentProfile/2011/PDF/2011EnrollmentTrends.pdf (http://vpaf.okstate.edu/IRIM/StudentProfile/2011/PDF/2011EnrollmentTrends.pdf)

Does OSU-OKC operate under the same degree program restrictions and Langston U. situation as OSU-Tulsa?

I don't think its fair to say Tulsa leaders are apathetic.  It's my understanding that it's been the Oklahoma legislature that has been less than supportive of higher education for Tulsa over the years.  It's also not clear to me how strong OSU-Tulsa's support or plans for growth is on the Board of Regents.

Some other interesting facts about the upswing in OSU-STW enrollment:
-OSU-STW is capturing a higher % of OKLA HS ACT-takers compared to recent years
-A lot of the growth in new freshman is coming from out-of-state students. First, Of course out-of-state students pay a higher tuition/fees than in-state students, helping offset costs for in-state students..  Secondly, in theory, those out-of-state students are more likely to stay and work in OK than if they attended a TX/AR/KS university. This is good news for our local companies and tax revenues.
-A large increase in minority enrollment which is fantastic on many different levels.

Maybe.  Does OSU charge in-state tuition for areas in Texas around Dallas the same as OU?

It would be interesting to see if there is any real evidence that out-of-state Texas students paying in-state tuition at OU/OSU are staying in Okla. in significant numbers.  If not, then Oklahomans are just subsidizing the education of Texas kids who couldn't get in UT.

I have never heard of any programs that allow out of state students to pay in state tuition at OSU. The only school I have heard that does this is Univ of Arkansas and they offer it to Oklahoma students that score above a certain ACT score and have a certain GPA (those amounts I do not remember). So the students coming in from out of state are paying out of state tuition. OSU has done a great job marketing themselves in Texas (The Brighter Orange Campaign) and they have expanded recruiting out of Kansas (there were a lot of new kids coming in from Johnson County).


Where has the voice been at in Tulsa to grow programs and campuses here? Exactly, there has been NONE. It's like a kid that is told you can't have anything then proceeds to sit in the corner and pout instead of annoying the hell out of people and yelling until it gets what it wants. Not only has the past leadership in the city failed in promoting our campuses here in Tulsa, our state representatives have as well. OSU-OKC is basically a glorified TCC it only grants associate degrees so it is still limited in scope but has a significantly larger enrollment than OSU-Tulsa. Do the degree restrictions still exist now that Langston has it's own building? I thought that lifted a lot of what was hampering the OSU campus. I won't even begin my rant about Langston, but to make it short they have the same opportunity to recruit African American students out of the large population centers around us that OSU has. There is more than enough of a market that Tulsa can support OSU-Tulsa, Langston-Tulsa, OU-Tulsa, Univ of Tulsa, NSU-BA, and another full service public university. The only way we are going to grow our population is by grabbing kids in college from the surrounding region and allowing them to fall in love with the city and the state.

I believe I've said this before, but Oklahoma obsesses with trying to keep kids here. This is looking at the issue wrong and a very short sited solution. We need to be more concerned about out of the state recruitment. If we can make Tulsa and Oklahoma in general attractive to people outside of the state this will in turn solve our retention problem of losing talented Oklahomans. Only focusing on retaining Oklahomans in the state limits our growth opportunities by at least half of what we could gain. Anymore it's natural for the younger generation to move away from home to experience something new but a lot of my friends plan to return to Tulsa eventually. They see what the city is becoming and I hear a lot "In 5-8 years the city will be pretty awesome".

I would assert that the "leadership" of Tulsa has been much more proactive about higher ed and OSU-Tulsa in the last 3-4 years.  In my opinion, thru the 90's and early 00's many of Tulsa's appointed leaders were very much sit at your desk and hope business comes in.  From my experience that changed in 2006 when Tulsa's largest locally owned corporations made a concerted effort to step into leadership roles in the legislative, economic development and quality of life arenas.  This is most evident in the leadership at the Tulsa Metro Chamber, Tulsa Riverparks, Tulsa Zoo & Tulsa Public Schools.  The attitude of the Chamber staff and executive volunteer leadership has drastically changed in the last ten years.  It's been an uphill fight in getting state funded allocated equitably to NE OK, but I believe they are starting to win key battles and we'll see a change in the next few years.  The item to watch IMO is what will happen with state funding for the OK Pop Museum.

OSU-OKC is weird and I've never really understood it.  While we were in school at Stillwater, my wife left to go back home in OKC for a semester and took some classes at OSU-OKC.  They only offer undergraduate courses and can only grant associates degrees.  What is really strange is that there are lots of classes at OSU-OKC that don't transfer to Stillwater and can't be applied towards a bachelors.  On the other side, it's my understanding that most TCC classes will transfer to OSU-Stillwater towards a bachelors.  I found it extraordinarily odd that OSU-OKC had fewer transferrable offerings.  Very bizarre.  I have no idea why it's like that.  I kind of wish OSU-OKC and Okmulgee were spun off.  Having a jr. college and a technical school as part of a major university system just strikes me as fodder for those inclinded to project OSU as a lower tier of higher education.   

I wish the OSU system would be Stillwater and Tulsa and focus on expanding graduate programs, especially in Tulsa, and try to engrain themselves more into the downtown fabric with all of the development taking off on the north end of downtown.  I never understood why the medical college built a new building on their west bank campus.  If they had the money for construction, I really don't understand why they didn't just move the whole medical college to the greenwood campus.  I hate that it is seperated from the greenwood campus, is honestly not in a great part of town, across from oil refineries, and feels very isolated.  I also used to think the greenwood campus would be a good location to start a public law school, but this state already has three law schools, and the legal profession is becoming saturated.  Lots of new law grads struggling to find work and pay the massive debts. 

Well I will eat humble pie and say I was wrong.  It probably has been a while since I have looked at the stats.  Things are better here in Tulsa.  When I graduated in 1985 you pretty much HAD to leave the city or go to TU or ORU in order to get a graduate degree. 

 It's still the case that not having a publicly funded graduate university in Tulsa hurts us, and whatever potential university that would otherwise grow here.   I look at Austin and hear about how the synergies with the companies that exist there work with the university and how the students there, because they are in a city, often start businesses there and stay in that city.  They keep lots of young talent around and grow lots of businesses that way.  Not so much that in Stillwater which hurts OSU imo, and of course hurts Tulsa when you consider that OSU would be the logical choice to be the university that grows here. 

  But I do like seeing the OU campus near my house growing and offering more, and I know a lot of people who go to NSU BA as well.  Still lacking in some higher graduate degree offerings in the city though.  Had a friend just a while back who was considering moving to Tulsa, but was working on his graduate degree and couldn't.  He had a good paying job, and could have got a comparable one here, but with his career needed that higher degree to move up.  Shame that you can't do that in Tulsa for a lot of things. That hurts our companies here.   

I've known many people who drive to Stillwater or Norman a twice a week to take classes they can't/couldn't take here. It's completely ridiculous they should have to do that in the 54th most populous MSA in the country.

So everyone knows btw that commute is not cheap.  If you ride the bus it is $14 round trip.  If you do that three times a week for a whole semester it becomes very exPensive.  That's the reason why I live in Stillwater this semester.  I'm finishing my masters and the cost of commuting is just stupid.

  Yea, imagine if you have a family or already have a good job you don't want to or can't afford to leave, a home to take care of, etc.   It's ok for the traditional, just out of high school or early 20s person, but once your already established some and want to move up and improve your lot, or just finish what you may have started earlier in life,,, kind of absurd a city our size can't take care of you.  Heck, I know a lot of companies REQUIRE that you take continuing education courses and or require higher degrees in order for you to move up the ladder.   You try to attract some high tech companies here and they find out we aren't competitive on the education front... just makes it a harder, if not an impossible sell, to get them here. 

They are removing everything west of the fence on the west side of the building and east of the tracks.

I'm 29 and I have a wife and child in Tulsa.   :(


Yeah I saw this.  I guess they are finishing up whatever it is they are doing these days.

Making room for the counsilor's event center's parking.

Public Meeting Set for Update on EPA Brownfield Grants

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/public-meeting-set-update-epa-brownfield-grants (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/public-meeting-set-update-epa-brownfield-grants)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201503/Brownfields.jpg)

How about this site for a soccer stadium and complex. Build a walking bridge over the tracks to connect to parking at OSU Tulsa and the Greenwood district.

Outlet mall......

That would be a really good site for an outlet mall if the lot is big enough

Are you sure people haven't been spelunking on that site for years? If so, then the Tulsa Urban Spelunking Coalition might oppose it.

This site was sent out for RFP recently. I think two developers bid on it. Not sure what the status of this is recently. But rumor was this would be turned into a mixed-use development with mainly office and multifamily with some retail. That developer supposedly has experience with brownfield clean up and redevelopment.

It would be laughable to see Simon try to deal with a brownfield site with the way they've handled the Turkey Mountain site.

I see what you did there

It would be perfect....They may not be able to make it any worse........

Really?  How petty can you get?

Unless you believe there are caves in that area, I'm not sure how you could've possibly taken that seriously.

No, I took it as a deliberate jab at people who are sacrificing quite a bit of time to make sure an outlet mall is not built on top of a children’s Y camp and adjacent to one of Tulsa’s best assets.

Yeah, I'm SUPER anti-civic engagement.

Hard to tell at times.  You should use emoji’s/emoticons more often.

 :-*

Whoa dude...religious freedom.  I feel oppressed.

[SARCASM] I'm sorry. That emoticon is clearly gay. We don't want them types 'round here.  [/SARCASM]

/thread hijack, sorry!

(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/8195534_G.jpg)

http://www.newson6.com/story/29437659/city-seeking-proposals-to-develop-historic-land

yes please

I don't get how this building is historic... maybe I'm just missing something on this one. It looks like cheap pieces of tin.

However, I think the public market idea (Pike Place) is excellent. They should reach out to the Cherry Street Market and do a partnership with them to bid for the site. The views from this property back towards downtown are nice, and if you infilled the surrounding area around the building with student housing and small retailers you could make a pretty nice neighborhood.

Not sure on the historic piece either but it would certainly help the cities cause if they could do a little road work over there.
That's the only road in Tulsa that is so bad that someone put up graffiti asking the city to fix it.

Of course, the they don't appear to care as apparently none of them drive that street... EVER.

This is a great concept...I hope it moves to something beyond concept, this parcel has had so many unfulfilled concepts.

The market with housing would be awesome.  Please happen!

My mind’s eye keeps going to the City Market in the River District in Kansas City when I see the concept.  I like it a lot.

Agree

Looks like a Motel 6 to me...

I wasn't sure where to post this. According to the article below, the Moton site is 1 of 6 Brownfield sites the city of Tulsa has been looking to have cleaned and redeveloped since 2013. http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/historic-moton-hospital-poised-for-brownfields-face-lift/article_216794f9-592b-553b-9c5a-39428cf9b5d2.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/historic-moton-hospital-poised-for-brownfields-face-lift/article_216794f9-592b-553b-9c5a-39428cf9b5d2.html)

This could potentially be put in downtown development since the aim of the developer is to create affordable housing for those wanting to live near downtown, but it is a mile north. A lot further than the Evans site.

Booker T. Washington grad wants to 'give back' with $21 million redevelopment of Moton site


http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/booker-t-washington-grad-wants-to-give-back-with-million/article_5c3cd556-b8c9-548a-a3ee-2529834a5354.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/booker-t-washington-grad-wants-to-give-back-with-million/article_5c3cd556-b8c9-548a-a3ee-2529834a5354.html)

Raw Space supporters tour Evans-Fintube site


http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/raw-space-supporters-tour-evans-fintube-site/article_3096cb1b-74f9-5078-bc89-7daccb7f4536.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/raw-space-supporters-tour-evans-fintube-site/article_3096cb1b-74f9-5078-bc89-7daccb7f4536.html)

First, the University of Tulsa student newspaper, the Collegian, had a better write up 6 weeks ago... (http://tucollegian.org/raw-space-a-vision-for-tulsa/) It better explains the history of the site and the vision of the organization behind the request. The group also has their presentation online:

http://www.rawspacetulsa.com/

I like the idea - but I've worked in those old industrial buildings. They are hot in summer, cold in winter, and nearly impossible to actually seal in any effective manner. They simply were not made to be office space.  Would it be cool? Absolutely. Would it be great to reuse this space. YES! I know the vision is to have the space used for multiple purposes, and that would be great, but it would be hard to do (just money really). I suspect the "office" component will be a minor element compared to what I see as the real benefit:

An incubator for industrial ventures: welders, mechanics shop, crane companies, pipe fitters, tree trimmers, manufactureres. Things that industrial space, indoor space, and some large amounts of space. Those companies need incubator space too and in many cases support or form the basis of our industrial economy.  I'm sure there are a myriad of other industrial companies that would love to occupy a building that offers space, loading docks, industrial electrical hookups, etc.  The alternative is usually a garage, or jumping in with both feet on your own space.

The City has $600k in grants for remediation of the site. They threw out an RFP back in June, due back in July. (https://www.cityoftulsa.org/news/news-stories/2015/evansrfp.aspx)

Not sure what they are talking about visa vis historic places registration. As far as I can tell, the site doesn't appear on the National Registry of Historic Places. (http://focus.nps.gov/nrhp/SearchResults/a5f370e3774a43c6beba7cdba231453f?page=1&view=list) Would appreciate it if someone cleared that confusion up for me.  Cool old building for sure - but I don't see it listed.

Anyway, the idea is fantastic. No idea about the feasibility or cost, but an incubator for industry that utilizes this location is a great idea.

Also, here is the link to the (draft) Tulsa grant application for remediation of PCBs, hydrocarbons, and metals. Tons of information on the Evans building, Fin Tube building, ad contamination that is present:

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/media/106583/draft09-22-10evansfintubeepacleanupgrantapplication.pdf

I love the idea. I wonder how they will implement this realistically:


From my experience working in shop and lab-type environments, tools going missing has always been a problem and can halt projects and cause frustrations. Many employees/departments at shops and labs, even some of the friendliest/most family-like places, keep their tools locked up so they don't go missing (either by borrowing or stealing).

It is not a show-stopper, but if all of these multi-million and billion dollar businesses I've been around where everyone inside is accounted for at all times with security cameras and near 24-hour presence can't find a way to share tools, even just among different work groups, I can't imagine several completely different ventures being willing/able to openly share tools/assets which could range from $10-$10,000s or much more (e.g. any CNC machines, lathes).

I wonder how much patience various startups would have for each other. It is often a stressful/OT endeavor with tight deadlines and a lot of risk. I wonder how helpful they would be to each other or if they would even be able to put up with a bunch of things being tested like drones flying around, the noise involved with any assembling of products, the general clutter that comes with many big projects.

On a small scale like at Fablab, this has proven to work if you can make sure everyone cleans up after themselves and take turns and have a good fair price for lab usage. How about when everyone's livelihood is dependent on a timeline and use of the space/tools? The different types of proposed businesses sound interesting, but many of those, especially the manufacturing and industrial listed, would take a considerable amount of room.

I am all for this if they can find a way to work! I would definitely check it out and try to get involved to some extent and support the businesses that I could.  

I like the Raw Space idea, but I don't like it for this site (and the raw space site has way too many buzzwords for me and possibly wasn't proofread)

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/f.cl.ly/items/0q0X0t2N3k1u0P1X2D1Z/Screen%20Shot%202015-12-03%20at%2011.24.39%20PM.png?v=9a507fbd)

Evans-Fintube Redevelopment Moving Forward

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/evans-fintube-redevelopment-moving-forward (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/evans-fintube-redevelopment-moving-forward)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/x_large/public/201505/evans_fintube.png)

Very cool.

The way I read the article is that Clay Bird tried to sell the site to an industrial user but some folks probably stopped him.

4 condos and a mattress king with 500 parking spots?

God bless them and I hope there's a real development proposal with some meat behind it.  But goddam that is a tough site.  It's isolated on all sides by impassable highways, railroad, and OSU-Tulsa parking lot.  I hope they're able to figure something out.

It kills me to say this but perhaps the classic mixed-use residential actually isn't the best use on that spot. 

But maybe it is and it'll be a catalyst for OSU-Tulsa to get its act together and quit land banking so many acres of prime land.  Or maybe the city/state/feds can do something to make I-244 more crossable.

Guess the BMX deal is solid...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/city-finalizes-deal-with-usa-bmx-to-bring-headquarters-indoor/article_388060e5-d99a-5d4e-b811-69671314b5a3.html

Still a bummer they dismantled a perfectly good stadium on county property in anticipation of this, but I think it's a major win this is going on a brownfield within the city limits.

Tulsa really is a beautiful town.

It looks like home.

I'm curious what happens to the old stadium site now? 

And that aerial is outdated, no ONEOK Field, OETA, Hogan, The Edge, etc.  That will be a cool shot once the BMX site is redeveloped and Blue Dome fills in with Santa Fe Square and the Annex, plus the View, GreenArch 2 and Hartford Crossing. 

Hmm...sounds like a job for my little quadcopter .  8)

Yasss!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHEs5k7nGZc

That it is, also be nice to see the new Barn progress.

City to consider two development proposals for mixed-use development on Evans-Fintube site



https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/city-to-consider-two-development-proposals-for-mixed-use-development-on-evans-fintube-site/article_28e2c198-8aef-11ec-a15c-877cc28c6837.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

One will save the building (Begood Development & others) and the other is planning to scrape the site (Rose Rock & others). From the public meetings Rose Rock has proposed building a soccer stadium and from my understanding was that it was met with shock from residents who participated in the meetings. Begood is a local black women developer who is wanting to turn the space into a cultural/business hub - something that you'd see in Atlanta that would utilize the building that is there to kick start the development and then infill the rest of the site as the market warrants.

I believe after the next community meeting which is where the final plans are being shown off, the steering committee and city have to score the proposals based on the RFP outline and then award the site. Rose Rock has pretty much ignored everything that has been said during the public input phase and that's a large part of the scoring process.

Interesting insight... might make sense for a soccer stadium... have a little district with the BMX next door.

Not really sure I understand the cultural hub idea, seems like it could be pretty vague at this point.

Sidenote: The amount of differences from the picture shown in the thread (circa 2016) to now is stunning. Tulsa is already 2-3x more dense  :D

North Tulsa doesn't need another stadium. At some point we've got to start listening, especially for what developments occur on city owned land. We've got to be more conscience on what happens within Greenwood and this is within the boundaries of that neighborhood. There's also no reason to tear down the building just to replace it with surface parking surrounding it.

The cultural hub just means that there is going to be a variety of spaces (co-working, food start up spaces, artist space, incubator spaces, etc.) and the uses are broken out within the proposal. The differences are pretty stark between the two proposals. That's just the first part of that developer's plan, after the historical building is finished then the land around the building would be turned into other mixed-use developments (hotel, residential, additional retail, etc.).

It's either give a local black developer a chance to build something that could start the redevelopment of Greenwood and be a centralized space for black businesses, etc. or ignore what everyone in that community has been asking for going on decades now and build another stadium, by a predominantly white development group, that can go anywhere in town. It's not like this is the only space that a soccer stadium could be built, but this is one of the few sites that could act as a large catalyst for North Tulsa/Greenwood.

I’m interested to hear more about the cultural hub portion, as in what that actually entails.  I’ve always thought those old warehouse buildings would be a great science and industry museum.

(https://i.ibb.co/2F0F2BR/Screenshot-20220510-170139-Samsung-Internet.jpg)



https://tulsaworld.com/news/city-selects-developer-for-evans-fintube-property-project-includes-saving-oklahoma-iron-works-building/article_a6f4dda2-cfd0-11ec-b6ef-9705302b2241.amp.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/city-selects-developer-for-evans-fintube-property-project-includes-saving-oklahoma-iron-works-building/article_a6f4dda2-cfd0-11ec-b6ef-9705302b2241.amp.html)

I’ve always thought something like the City Museum in St Louis would be a great use for the Iron Works building.  Excited to see what they come up with and glad it will be preserved

There's no way that tower gets built. Separated from anything by two highways and train tracks. Half  the tower would be parking garage, and I'm not sure what tenants are in need of that much space. Housing in a tower like that would have to be expensive and luxury. Seems very impractical considering the current stagnation of our high end economy. Battery factories and iced tea sugar water assembly lines don't need vertical space near downtown.

Agree let's get some new companies in the WPX tower first.  They will have their hands full with the Iron Works building and need to stay focused on that.

I'd have to disagree with you there - The View is leasing up at record pace and it's one of the most expensive properties in town. It's a few hundred feet from this site.

The Watco line is likely going to be purchased and moved as part of this development and likely some pedestrian or road/pedestrian connection will be built between OSU and the site. Crutchfield is under going a quite redevelopment that hasn't gotten much attention.

I'm an advocate for removing the highway, both 75 & 244 and it's been gaining significant traction to be studied further.

There's a lot of companies who are interested in opening offices in Greenwood - you just need a developer and broker who will actually take the time to reach out to people outside of Tulsa or return phone calls/email (looking at the broker of 21 Greenwood). I think people underestimate the significance of the name now. More hotels are needed downtown and there's several brands looking at Greenwood specifically because of the long-term tourism draw and significance of the area.

The tower would not be 100% office, it's a mixture of office (about the size of 21 Greenwood), residential, and hotel. Basically imagine taking The View, 21 Greenwood, and the Holiday Inn next door and stacking them. The total square feet of uses in the tower isn't unsupportable.

There's also a lot of capital this project can get that any other site in Tulsa outside of Greenwood wouldn't be able to attract nationally. They talked about it in the community meeting. JEDunn Capital talked about specific minority funds, one of which they manage - that have hundreds of millions in capital to deploy. JPMorgan Chase has a significant amount of loan/capital funds reserved for minority lead development projects they established within the last 24 months, they aren't the only bank either with programs like this. There's capital nationally too that would be interested in the story of developing a site in Greenwood with a black led development team. Outside of that too this site is eligible for New Market Tax Credits which is a huge advantage to being able to finance and build something of bigger scale. The demand doesn't end just because you cross 244 a couple hundred feet, the connectivity issues of the site can be solved too. The city has already said the TIF allocation/capacity for this site will be in excess of $30 million, that can do a lot to solving the infrastructure issues.  


Disagree - Santa Fe Square is pretty much 100% leased. Do you really think in 3-4 years we won't need more new office space?

WPX has a lease now, 21 Greenwood as well. Frankly I blame both the brokerage teams on the poor lease up of both those assets.

It's possible to do more than one thing at a time... there's a lot of firms that'd be interested in this site and not WPX, purely for the narrative behind the project.

Also, if people want to see what other redevelopment is going on in this area:

StreetCred by TYPROS is going on this weekend. Saturday they are doing a pop-up market from 11-5pm in the large brick warehouse at 65 N Madison (that property across 75 from Evans) and will have food trucks, live artist murals, and bands through out the day. Friday night they are doing a movie night inside the building as well and will have food trucks out as well. That will be from 6-9 pm Friday.

That site is planned to be redeveloped in the next few years, they are showcasing some possibilities of what it could be in the future. The owner of that site also has a significant stake in about 50%+ of properties in that area east of 75 and west of Utica that have been quietly renovated and restored.

Event Details:
https://allevents.in/tulsa/typros-street-cred-outside-the-loop/200022351840313?ref=cityhome (https://allevents.in/tulsa/typros-street-cred-outside-the-loop/200022351840313?ref=cityhome)

(https://i.ibb.co/sJ9m2dy/2022-05-11-11-32-50.jpg)

I appreciate your optimism and hope you're right. I also support removal, at least of 244 in the northern leg of the IDL. That would help tremendously connecting it to ONEOK Field, the East Village, and the Arts District. Pretty underpasses won't do the job. I also should clarify that I'm not against high end residential if there is a market for it, but I think the Greenwood neighbors are demanding that housing be affordable. A high end high rise residence would be gentrification almost by definition. The rendering is impressive and hope it works out, especially if we can finally rid ourselves of the northern IDL.

Welp

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pair-of-development-partners-drop-out-of-evans-fintube-project-north-of-downtown/article_0dc8767e-a258-11ed-84ab-afb6d28922bd.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

This is a challenging project to pull off for even the most experienced development teams, not sure how they can proceed without the primary equity partners?  Including the pie-in-the-sky 42 story tower was already eyebrow-raising.  I saw someone mention on another site that this could be a good place for a film/movie soundstage and think something like that, similar to what OKC has in Prairie Surf Studio, would be a great use for this building.  If I were Be Good Development I would be calling Rachel Cannon and getting her up to Tulsa next week.

Removing 244 on the north segment of the IDL is a pipe dream.  The traction it has is minimal at best.  I'm not a proponent or opponent of either outcome here, but I *am* a realist.  The north leg is too convenient for both regular automotive drivers and commercial transport.  It would be expensive to fight.  I'll be interested to watch the fight if it materializes.

Well it has already materialized for more than a year. You have multiple political leaders calling for it's removal and a supportive federal government to ideas like this. It's happening in other major cities. Look at Syracuse for I-81 - I would argue I-81 is more critical to regional travel than I-244 could ever be in Tulsa. Rochester is another example, Detroit is doing a massive removal of part of the downtown 'loop' they had, and others are working on projects.

Rep. Goodwin has been working extensively on this and has really done a lot of great things to push it forward. Councilor Hall-Harper is a big supporter of getting rid of the highway. Karen Keith has also voiced support that something needs to happen. Multiple other councilors are in full support of removing it too. The only local elected leadership apprehensive to it is the mayor and INCOG - both of whom are pushing the idea that it should be tunneled (a dumb idea) instead of removed and replaced with the rebuilding of the historic street-grid.

Once the Gilcrease is finished I-244 is even more obsolete than it is now. If you look at the federal governments classifications of freight routes it's the least critical freight route in the Tulsa MSA - hardly a barrier to removing it. It's only convenient for auto drivers that are regional (say going from east Tulsa to Stillwater or other east-west trips). Less than 20% of the users of 244 are using it to access downtown or surrounding neighborhoods. Why can't those drivers take an extra 2-3 minutes and use the Gilcrease when it's finished instead?  Or they could take I-44 and the southwest portion of the Gilcrease that is open - just would take a few more minutes. I-244 is not needed and it comes at the expensive of everyone in the city because taking up that valuable land with non-tax paying infrastructure is bad for city finances. It's also bad for many social reasons and what I-244 did to Greenwood/North Tulsa and other neighborhoods. Imagine the growth Kendall Whittier could have north if the freeway didn't cut it in half. Crosbie Heights/Owen Park same thing.

The tower was never envisioned to be part of Phase 1 of the development. It was somewhat aspirational/future leaning.

What development sites in Tulsa could facilitate a 200,000 sq. ft. office tenant right now in Class A space? You could count them on one hand - and many of them are not Class A like the WPX building that a tenant would want - they're spaces like the Cimarex building that is butt ugly and cheap for Class A. How do we expect to ever be competitive for corporate relocations or expansions if we can't even get a half dozen sites build to suit ready for office tenants?

If you say are scouting Omaha, Des Moines, OKC, and Tulsa for a project - all three of those would give you a half dozen to a dozen sites that are essentially permit ready for office space of that size or bigger. It's really shocking how far behind the ball Tulsa is in that regard and some of that falls on the development community. There's such a small handful of office developers and they gate keep that sector. All that does is hold Tulsa back.

This would be a perfect site to leave open for a corporate relocation/expansion and getting to say they are helping to start the rebuilding of the Greenwood neighborhood, etc. Even for local companies it has plenty of story and location to be appealing enough to consider if they wanted to upgrade their office space similar to H&P and others have been doing. While 42 stories probably wouldn't ever happen, but a 15-25 story building with an anchor office tenant and hotel as part of a mixed-use 'tower' isn't unreasonable to consider feasible in the future. 

Meh, there are much better office tower sites than this location.  BOK will likely build a new tower within the next 5 years and will dump a lot of Class A space onto the market within the Tower.  Where they build it is anyone’s guess but it won’t be at Evans Fintube

I wonder if they considered buying the WPX building? Is it too small for what they need? Some tenants were moved out of the tower over the last several years, I thought maybe BOK had committed to the tower and taken more floors. Although its One Williams Center, pretty much everyone calls it the BOK Tower.

(https://i.ibb.co/9NKwN2c/F2d01a7b-39f5-46df-8bb7-f9f4c77236d3-evansfintube-1.jpg)



https://ktul.com/news/local/negotiations-ended-by-the-city-for-evans-fintube-redevelopment

Hmm I wonder if they will redo the RFP process?  I really hope the old building can be salvaged, it would be a shame to demolish it.