The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Tulsans' ideas sought for George Kaiser Family Foundation's proposed park

Quote
The George Kaiser Family Foundation wants public input into the creation of a new gathering space on two large tracts of land along the east side of Riverside Drive.

"Because this will be space for all of Tulsa to enjoy, we want the entire community to give us their ideas on what they want to see in their new park," said Jeff Stava, project manager for the foundation's proposal.

The project, estimated to cost between $100 million and $150 million, would stretch from 26th Street to just south of 31st Street.

The land includes the 33.6 acres of the Blair Mansion property at 26th Place and the 21.5-acre tract where the Crow Creek Apartments sit just south of 31st Street. Both properties are owned by the foundation.

As part of the planning process, public meetings will be held at 6 p.m. on March 6 and March 7 at the Center for Creativity on Tulsa Community College's downtown campus.

The public-input sessions will be open-house style for people to engage with members of the project team about the "potential for the site to deliver a unique experience to the community," Stava said.

He said the foundation is soliciting ideas for low-impact activities such as splash pads, tree forts, zip lines, sculpture gardens and nature trails through the wooded area there.

"Great parks in cities have all sorts of these type of activities, many of which we don't have here in our parks," Stava said.

He noted that parks draw people "for all different kinds of reasons, whether it's activities or enjoying the atmosphere of the park itself."

A small parking lot that takes up 4.2 acres sits between the two Kaiser Foundation tracts. Mayor Dewey Bartlett said it has not yet been determined whether that land is owned by the city or jointly by the city and county.

"No matter, from the city's perspective, we need to be very flexible when somebody has made a commitment to embark upon a very visionary development that is beneficial to the public," he said.

Bartlett said that while he will be supportive, the role of the public land will be determined by the foundation's final plans.

Stava said the biggest challenge for the project is unifying the sites not only with each other but also to River Parks on the west side of Riverside Drive.

"You have to be able to get people back and forth fluidly and effortlessly," he said.

He noted that the Midland Valley Trail, formerly a railroad track, sits atop a berm and is a barrier between the Blair property and the publicly owned land. Then 31st Street is a barrier between the public land and the Crow Creek Apartments site.

The most obvious barrier, he said, is Riverside Drive between River Parks and the new gathering spaces.

"This is a big creative challenge," he said. "We're asking the public for its thoughts and ideas on how to unify the sites and what the activities should be on the sites."

The foundation is using Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates, a landscape architecture firm based in Brooklyn, N.Y., to design the project based on the public input.

Stava said the firm specializes in riverfront projects, and he pointed out how it transformed the Hudson River Park, a former industrial waterfront, into a community landscape featuring a boardwalk, a carousel and expansive views of the river.

The firm's staff, Stava said, "are true park builders and focus on the essence of a site."

The foundation selected the firm after narrowing the field from 35 companies that submitted qualification packets. The firm also competed with three others in a competition process, Stava said.

"The Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates have a way of looking at things in a super-creative way. They keep the green green and make it better by weaving together landscaping and trails and all of the activities," he said

Stava said the firm has proven experience in designing "amazing parks in numerous metropolitan areas around the country, and their dedication to creating landscapes that reflect the community in which they're based made them the clear choice for this project."

I want to know what the 600 or so units of apartment living will be replaced with.  Uprooting over a thousand people isn't the greatest plan for density, unless more is going to be packed in to whatever new development is put in.

And I really hope whatever is decided on incorporates a get-sh*t-done construction contractor, because I would hate to see 31st & Riverside be a construction wasteland for the majority of the next decade.

Why couldn't they use the upper level of the rail road bridge for bikes? It could be surfaced with decking and have side rails attached.

About a year ago there were crews drilling into the MV trail bed pulling up core samples. They were pretty tight lipped about it. Maybe in preparation for a resurfacing.

Wait?  What's that?  The KFF is entertaining the idea of dropping $150 million on Riverparks development without a public tax grab?

Where's all those whiners now?  ;D

I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.

I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.

I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.

I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.

Last time owns at QT Park, there were two birthday parties and many families, including mine.

Also, while I would love to see a Children's museum built in Tulsa, I would hate to see it built here.

ZYX, I agree that the addition of QT park was very nice and there are families down there often.  But it is basically a playground, not much more.  People aren't bringing families to Tulsa from surrounding areas (or further) just to go to a playground.  To me, the QT park is very much a local pocket park which serves a definite purpose.

I'm curious why you think that a Children's Museum would be bad for this area?  A Children's Museum would bring LOTS of daily foot traffic and would be just one component of the area so I think it would be a good "anchor" for this park.  Heck as much money as they're talking about spending, we might be able to get 2 or 3 anchors in this park.

Again, just my opinion, but if you want this to be a true gathering place (think the opposite of most other Tulsa parks), you need to have people around all the time and something to keep others moving in and out.  I thnk a family centered museum could be just the thing.  

What other ideas do you have?

Well I see that you have a good memory of my posts regarding west bank development. :)   I will politely disagree with your notion of placing anything "destination" worthy on the west bank.  While I don't disagree with your point on parking, I would much rather see a Children's Museum placed in the Brady District before I'd want to see it on the west bank of the river there.

And all due respect ZYX, but how do you expect fountains (even interactive ones) and sculptures to bring thousands of people to this park every day?  We need to showcase this park by having a community-spirited anchor on this site.  I don't know how the parking gets pulled off, but I'm not here to architect it, I'm just trying to figure out a way to truly re-magnetize this portion of Tulsa, not only to its residents but also to visitors.

Well I see that you have a good memory of my posts regarding west bank development. :)   I will politely disagree with your notion of placing anything "destination" worthy on the west bank.  While I don't disagree with your point on parking, I would much rather see a Children's Museum placed in the Brady District before I'd want to see it on the west bank of the river there.

And all due respect ZYX, but how do you expect fountains (even interactive ones) and sculptures to bring thousands of people to this park every day?  We need to showcase this park by having a community-spirited anchor on this site.  I don't know how the parking gets pulled off, but I'm not here to architect it, I'm just trying to figure out a way to truly re-magnetize this portion of Tulsa, not only to its residents but also to visitors.

Someone needs to remind the owner of the concrete plant it's not worth $50 mil.

Why not a destination on the west bank? The infrastructure to support it is already there, close access to US75, I44/244 on Southwest Boulevard, train tracks for transit and it's under developed? Both the city yard and the cement factory need to put to better use and development could be a catalyst for improvements on 21st and on Southwest Blvd/Route 66.

I but rather a place that people walk, bike or use mass transit to get to.

I'd buy in to this if we threw enough money at it and did more than just "one thing" over there.  Tulsa has already messed up a little bit by not developing (or encouraging more development) in a single focused area.  The Brady District, Blue Dome, Greenwood, BOK Center, Sobo, Cherry Street, Brookside, Utica Square...these aren't "districts", they're small and mostly over before they ever begin.  Where's the destination?

Sorry highway access is a tough sell for me...rail....that's visionary for sure, and I'd buy into that if someone would create something more than another park over there.  It would need to be something BIG...VERY BIG.

WOW, I WISH SOMEONE WOULD PAY ME FOR MY HOUSE AND "LET" ME LIVE IN IT FREE AND INDEFINATELY !!!

I don't know how to quote this properly, but it was posted earlier in this topic.

It would seem this would have to be a very long ranged endeavor.
If I remember correctly... one of the terms of the "sale" of the Blair property was that the current owner/resident, could maintain residence and use of the property for the remainder of his life.


WOW, I WISH SOMEONE WOULD PAY ME FOR MY HOUSE AND "LET" ME LIVE IN IT FREE AND INDEFINATELY !!!

Not for the remainder of his life, but for awhile.

  I thought I read somewhere that they were moving the house.  And my impression is that this project will start within about 2 years.

Stava was on tonight's news (many here are indulging for Fat Tuesday) and said that the home owner (Bruford?) was going to be moving the mansion off the Blair property to one of his properties.

Also, neighbor's along the border of the Blair property received a notification/mailing over the weekend. The first step in rezoning is to survey the adjacent owners to find out the level of resistance.

I'd guess this project is 5-20 years off into the future.

 While I love art deco, I don't think creating something of an older style is in the cards.  Architects and designers appreciate the older styles, but are absolutely loath to recreate it unless pushed to do so.  They want to create something new reflecting their own style.  Having said that, all architecture, especially modern of any stripe, can be imparted with an art deco "soul" or ethos if you will, so something new and of that nature would perhaps be the best hoped for outcome.  

Building an modern building to look "old" or as if it was from the "art deco" era makes it look phoney IMO -just as remodling an old building from the 1930's to try and make it look like a new 1930's building, (only updated) - much of the origonal feeling is lost, replacing old classic light fixtures with new light fixtures built to look like the old one is not the same thing. BTW the old 1980 movie "Xanadu" was  filmed on location of an old building from the art deco era called the "Pacific building" (or some such name)  I think that structure really had a great classic art deco  look to it,  and they latter knocked that building down. So much for historic preserving of old structures...

A shockingly coherent, reasoned and salient post by Saur, and then he takes the sharp left turn at Xanadu.

I would've gone straight into Xanadu.

A shockingly coherent, reasoned and salient post by Saur, and then he takes the sharp left turn at Xanadu.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTf__Z_vaHDT1jlaIEqZZ-V8Ur25pbkRusH9UIEX4ZCTq0N-Zmq9Q)

The George Kaiser Family Foundation is entering the next phase of planning for a new gathering space near Riverside.
The foundation has plans to break ground on a new park, which will sit on the Blair property between 26th and 29th and Riverside Drive as well as the Sundance and Legacy apartment properties south of 31st and Riverside in early 2014.
All of the properties are presently owned by the foundation.
The foundation is asking for public input on the project. Public meetings took place in March. A second round of meetings are scheduled for May 23 and 24 at the TCC Center for Creativity at 918 South Boston Ave.  Both meetings will begin at 6 p.m.
"This next round of meetings is a continuation of the public input process,” said Jeff Stava, project manager for A Gathering Place for Tulsa. “We received tremendous feedback during the first round of meetings and hope to have more of the same as we reveal some initial ideas.”
Final public meetings are anticipated for the fall.
Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates ( MVVA), a landscape architecture firm based in Brooklyn, NY, has been chosen to design the new gathering place. MVVA previously designed the Hudson River Park in New York and Mill Race Park in Columbus, Ind.
Early design concepts reflecting previously gathered public input will be unveiled at the meetings.
“From the input and ideas we received from the community through emails, website comments and the public meetings, we were able to create an early concept that we feel reflects the desires of Tulsa residents,” said Van Valkenburg, MVVA principal. “We’re excited to present these early ideas to the community and are eager to hear their thoughts.”
The images above shows the early concept for a venue, which would allow people to gather and have low-key events, and a green space area, which shows much of the existing green space would be retained and blended with other landscape elements, plus access to the river.
“The preliminary renderings we show at the meetings are not final,” said Stava. “We’re going to listen to what the community thinks of these early concepts and use that input to continue crafting what ultimately will be the final design.”
The thus far unnamed project is expected to cost between $100 to $150 million. Final site plans are expected to be complete in the fall.

Anyone else going tonight?

That was a Randi Miller pile with sleaze on top.

I loved the one Mayor LaFortune had on his wall. Standing in the river with his suit pants rolled up and Gucci's in hand.

I think they both were supporters, just not good at making it happen. Like my old friend at the newspaper used to say, "Steve, that's a good idea if it works...."

Taylor was mayor at the time.

Yes, which is a little irritating as it reminds me that while Taylor appeared to have taken most of the credit for Vision2025, it was Mayor LaFortune that did all the leg work on that front.

I can remember being at the BOK Center grand opening when she gave Mayor LaFortune a t-shirt thanking him for all his hard work.  Of course I had to tell my mom who was with me 'all that and all I got was this stinking t-shirt?'.

I never sensed that she was stealing anyone else’s due, she simply happened to be mayor at the time many of the projects were finishing up doing her figurehead work.

She may not have been, but I think LaFortune didn't get lauded nearly enough for his role in it.  He helped get the vote on the ballot, stumped for it (which was politically brave as a Republican, even for local politics) and it ultimately won.  To me, it felt a little like a slap in the face.  I didn't care much for Taylor at the outset due to the residency thing.  She grew on me, but I didn't dislike LaFortune.  I thought he was a good mayor.

Funny how that goes, I ended up thinking LaFortune was a real doof in the end.  Taylor rubbed me wrong at the beginning with her “make it happen or else” style and the One Tech purchase.  As I got to know her and work on a couple of projects with her, she really impressed me. 

Taking a long look back, Tulsa would look much different today (more like post-modern Beirut) than it does now if not for the efforts of LaFortune and Taylor.

Funny how that goes, I ended up thinking LaFortune was a real doof in the end.  Taylor rubbed me wrong at the beginning with her “make it happen or else” style and the One Tech purchase.  As I got to know her and work on a couple of projects with her, she really impressed me. 

Taking a long look back, Tulsa would look much different today (more like post-modern Beirut) than it does now if not for the efforts of LaFortune and Taylor.

I wonder what Dewey's big contribution will be? Lafortune has V2025 and the Peli BOK. Taylor has the Borg cube move and the ONEOK park.

I would like to see Mayor Bartlett push for a parking solution for the PAC/City Hall/Blue Dome to free up surface area for development. 

He'll probably patent a design for a fire-retardant cellphone.

Or get caught sparking up a big doobie in the council chamber.

I wonder what Dewey's big contribution will be.  Taylor has the Borg cube move . . . 

Taylor was mayor at the time.

I wonder what Dewey's big contribution will be.  Taylor has . . . the ONEOK park.

. . . Along with the continuing mystery of why we paid $60 million for a $30 million ballpark; and of course the buildings being torn down to avoid the resulting tax increase.

I really like the plan and it appears that some of the ideas we have discussed on this forum, like the path on top of the pedestrian bridge, made it into the final. I'll probably be too old to enjoy it by the time its finished but I'll get momma' to roll me over there!

I really like the plan and it appears that some of the ideas we have discussed on this forum, like the path on top of the pedestrian bridge, made it into the final. I'll probably be too old to enjoy it by the time its finished but I'll get momma' to roll me over there!

Looks very neat.  Lots of variety.  Looks like it's going to require a lot of maintenance and upkeep almost like they would need staff just for that area.  Any word on that aspect?

. . . Along with the continuing mystery of why we paid $60 million for a $30 million ballpark; and of course the buildings being torn down to avoid the resulting tax increase.

Unless you are a downtown property owner you haven't paid a dime for a ballpark in direct tax.  Maybe in higher rent rates or higher costs of goods as a result of higher rents from the raised assessment.  OR, unless you were part of the private group that donated $25MM in private funds you haven't paid a dime.  OR, unless you consider buying a ticket, a hot dog, cracker jacks, beer to be a contribution towards the  Drillers' $5MM long term lease you haven't paid a dime.  OR, unless you consider $30MM of the aforementioned $60MM that remains unspent but sits in accounts earmarked for future development to be an expenditure you haven't paid double for a ball park.

So, tell me again how YOU paid $60MM for a $30MM ballpark?

But, back on topic.  It looks like a great plan.  I'm really glad Kaiser didn't take his ball and go home after the tax payers turned down the tax initiative in 2007.  Quite amazingly he chose to still drop $100MM+ on projects adjacent to the river.  Which BTW, has to be one of the single largest donations to a public project in our nation's history.  I hope they have a spot where I can kick back and enjoy a Marshall's...

I sort of like the idea that its low key. It won't remain that way long as the visible changes occur. Then a big splash! I find it interesting that many are sure it will increase the value of the surrounding neighborhoods to have this attraction nearby. Maybe, maybe not. If I had invested a bunch of money tearing down and rebuilding a home just east of the area and south of the path, I might be skeptical.

I attended a United Way event last night at the new Henry Zarrow Center for Art and Education (which is really nice).  Jeff Stava, of the Tulsa Community Foundation, gave a short presentation on this project.  Most of it is what has been discussed and posted above.  What was most interesting, however, was the reaction of many in the room who were either completely unaware of this project or had no idea of the magnitude of what is planned.  I think Tulsans are going to be blown away by this project as they come to realize its size and scope.  This is truly a transformative project for Tulsa's river and, perhaps, Tulsa itself.

A lot of work is being done to construct the Gathering Place for Tulsa - the $100 million to $150 million park planned for the east side of Riverside Drive. It's just not work most people will ever know occurred.

"We have spent the last 4 1/2 months working on all sorts of details," said Jeff Stava, project manager for the park, which is being funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation.

The foundation plans to present its latest design for the park to the public the first week of December, with construction to begin sometime in the first half of 2014.

The foundation held several public meetings this year to gather input on the project and has spent the time since taking those comments into account as it finalizes plans for the park.

"We received just under 1,600 public comments between all of the meetings we had," Stava said. "And, believe it or not, there were a lot of comments that have a lot of good design potential.

"We have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to modify our plans to take advantage of those comments."

The modifications include maintaining and increasing open space in the park wherever possible and improving the park's connection to River Parks across Riverside Drive.

"We have gone back and literally relooked at every aspect of the project to keep as much openness as possible," Stava said. "People want the ability to get down to the water's edge, and they want to see the native habitat down on the riverbed, so we refashioned the plan on how it allows accessibility to those areas."

To construct the park, the foundation plans to transform land it owns east of Riverside Drive, including a small tract of city property, into a unique gathering place that ties into River Parks.

The foundation owns the 33.6 acres of the Blair Mansion property at 26th Place and the 21.5-acre tract that includes the Crow Creek Apartments, also known as the Sundance and Legacy apartments, south of 31st Street. The two tracts are connected by a 4.2-acre plot owned by the city.

The Blair Mansion itself will be moved and is not part of the plan.

As currently designed, the park and River Parks would be connected by two land bridges for pedestrians over Riverside Drive north of the Zink Dam and one pedestrian walkway under Riverside Drive south of the dam at Crow Creek.

Conceptual plans for the park include wooded areas, cascading lawns, meandering trails, a lodge building, gardens, a large playground, a splash park, wetlands, cafes and a large pond.

In addition to working on modifications to the park proposal, foundation officials have spent the past few months meeting with utility providers and public entities to ensure that the park's infrastructure needs - including electric power, water lines and roadways - are addressed.

"We have worked really hard over the last 4 1/2 months to understand the logistics of all those public and private utilities," Stava said. "Logistically, that has taken a lot of time."

The foundation also has been involved in discussions on proposed modifications to Zink Dam at 30th Street and Riverside Drive.

The final design of the dam project will be dictated by funding, much of which is uncertain. The Oklahoma Supreme Court has scheduled oral arguments concerning the constitutionality of a planned $25 million state bond issue to fund improvements to the dam for Nov. 8.

The city of Tulsa has pledged to allocate $41 million of its Vision2 funding for the Zink Dam project should the sale-tax initiative be approved by voters Tuesday.

Stava said the Gathering Place for Tulsa will be constructed regardless of how the Vision2 vote turns out.

"We are just trying to make sure the connection works and their project fits together and that the land bridges and landscape features fit together along the Arkansas River," Stava said.

If Vision2 does not pass, he added, the connection to River Parks "might have to be reworked a little bit to make that drop into the park, (but) the core essence of the park will not be affected by whether the dam is modified or not."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20121106_16_A1_CUTLIN162092

Looks like Riverside Dr will not be moved to the East.

Looks like Riverside Dr will not be moved to the East.

Pictures of the 3D model
http://cl.ly/1N1k0X253y3C1I1D1H2j
http://cl.ly/3Q473f2m1Z270e2i0l2b
http://cl.ly/1c0t1y131T0Q3G3V3c3B

Closeup of Blair Pond area
http://cl.ly/1W323L2g2W2N3m0p3y0s

Top-down view of plan:
http://cl.ly/0W101h422C0h3m3j2t0u (top half)
http://cl.ly/1r19441L3g042q36131k (bottom half)

See previous images I posted

Not really sure if I like all those white, modern, "sugar cube" looking houses in the area. 

Err, are you serious with that statement?

Lol, no.  But the sad thing about it is, we are all so used to hearing comments that are so inane, and serious, that you really can't be blamed for wondering if what I said was "for real" or not lol.

Lol, no.  But the sad thing about it is, we are all so used to hearing comments that are so inane, and serious, that you really can't be blamed for wondering if what I said was "for real" or not lol.

Is the pedestrian going to be bi-level?  Cycling on top and pedestrian on current deck?

So the apartments are officially going to go away?  I always thought it was weird that apartments were part of the plan but that plan posted above looks great.

[600-700 Residential Units] -> [???]

It may be viewed as clearing out Riff Raff, but that is a lot of people to remove from the local economy of Brookside businesses.

How much new residential do you see in these maps? 25 to 50 rich condos?

What will be the effect on the project if the funding for the  low water dam improvements (to effect a white water park) and future low water dams continues to be thwarted? Funding at the federal level has lost momentum and the supreme court ruling and the resolute opposition by a Edmond legislator has got to blunt the effort somewhat. The Zink dam needs to be raised in height and changed in operation to make the lake complementary to the development.

I haven't posted on here in a long time, but I have been real interested in this Kaiser Riverside project since the beginning. I'm pretty excited about it and I talk to my co-workers about it sometimes. When I first started talking about it, they didn't believe that this was in the works. Well I said, It's on TulsaNow. Ha 

They have no idea what this TulsaNow is, it's rather funny.

Anyway, I agree that Tulsa is kinda being left in the smoke as far as the Oklahoma City thing is concerned. But it's not supposed to be a contest.Is it?

I really hope they address the parking issue, if not then it's going to be a problem. But it does look like they have bought plenty of land, so we will see.

 

Any updates on this project?  The web site http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/ hasen't been updated since May 2012...

Design phase is pretty long. I think construction was set for 2014. $20 says part of the upcoming streets package will include Riverside drive work for this.

I wonder what the effect, if any, on this project of the Vision 2 failure and loss of state money for the dam(s).

I didn't go to the open house meetings but have been following this as close as possible, including talking to some GKFF people.  Does anyone know if they plan on keeping the neighborhood access to the park on 30th street?  If you live in that neighborhood (I don't), you can walk / ride down 30th Street and it dumps you right into the parking lot north of 31st street by the pedestrian bridge.  Can't really tell from the pictures.

I didn't go to the open house meetings but have been following this as close as possible, including talking to some GKFF people.  Does anyone know if they plan on keeping the neighborhood access to the park on 30th street?  If you live in that neighborhood (I don't), you can walk / ride down 30th Street and it dumps you right into the parking lot north of 31st street by the pedestrian bridge.  Can't really tell from the pictures.

The latest design shows that the apartment complex on the south end of the park (Crow Creek apartments?) won't be demolished... is this a recent change or old news?

Will the plans be on display tonight only? Or will TCC still have them for public viewing for awhile? I can't make it tonight, but I'd love to walk down to TCC during lunch sometime this week to view it all if I can.

Will the plans be on display tonight only? Or will TCC still have them for public viewing for awhile? I can't make it tonight, but I'd love to walk down to TCC during lunch sometime this week to view it all if I can.

I am a tad concerned about the increased costs, phase 2, and the vague early/mid 2014 start date. Those all remind me of all of the announced projects over the last 5 or so years that have never came to fruition.

Is this where you are talking about?

http://goo.gl/maps/lfPum (http://goo.gl/maps/lfPum)

I can understand why the neighborhood would want LESS connections to the park.

I am a tad concerned about the increased costs, phase 2, and the vague early/mid 2014 start date. Those all remind me of all of the announced projects over the last 5 or so years that have never came to fruition.

Which is absurd.  I want more access.  If there is any shred of criticism that can be given it is that there should be easy (well lit) pedestrian access from adjacent neighborhoods to the park.

There's already been a LOT spent on this project.   planning, land acquisition, scale models  :)
I think the Kaiser is quite committed to the project

I have no doubt he is committed I'm just not yet conditioned to believe every great announced plan and model will come to fruition.

Anyone know Kaiser's batting average?
* Guthrie Green
* Riverpark trails

anything else?

The latest design shows that the apartment complex on the south end of the park (Crow Creek apartments?) won't be demolished... is this a recent change or old news?

From what I see it looks like they are taking out part of the complex but leaving most of it.   The units right along crow creek are gone in the new plan, but the rest remain.  That is a big change from my viewpoint, retaining a couple hundred residential units.  Modernized/renovated perhaps?

I have no doubt he is committed I'm just not yet conditioned to believe every great announced plan and model will come to fruition.

I think the channels river plan of 2007 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.

I think the channels river plan of 2007 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.

Water makes you stupid. Look at surfers.

I think the channels river plan of 2007 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.

I think the channels river plan of 2007 2006 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.

There WAS a river development package that was put to a vote in 2006 (see Our River Yes), but it was in no way related to Tulsa Channels. GKFF was prepared to donate hundreds of millions of dollars to develop the river if Tulsa County voters approved a bond package to pay for the rest. Residents in the City of Tulsa voted in favor of it, with those living nearest the river approving of it in higher numbers. Voters in Owasso, Broken Arrow and other outlying areas not as directly impacted by river development overwhelmingly disapproved, and ultimately outnumbered the 'yes' votes in the City of Tulsa.

Now it's correct

from comments of http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A47231 :

Confusion over whether the Kaiser 2007 river plan and the Warren-led 2006 Channels was being voted on was one reason cited for failure of the vote in '07.

I got the Bing Thom three islands confused with Gilligan's three hour tour.

It takes a lot of money to buy something someone doesn't want to sell.

I like this project a LOT.  Basically what will happen is this:

Tulsa will get a WORLD class central park that will attract people from all over the Tulsa area (including Broken Arow, Glenpool and Owasso, communities who voted down the GKFF-sponsored river plan in 2007) and then they will all say, "Wow this is nice!!! But what the hell is up with that river over there?  There's never any water in it!!"  ... and then meanwhile, back at GKFF headquarters, there is a collective "I know, right!?....Dumbasses"

lol

I get bing cherries confused with Chandler Bing all the time.

It's like buying a house that is a fixer-upper:

Please don't hit me....

I'm just going to say what I know a lot of people are afraid to say. Without the waterpark component of this plan (the one the Edmond legislator killed because of the way it was written was determined to be logrolling) which involved whitewater rafting, raising the Zink dam to make sure water actually covered the sand and a possible link to the rest of the river downstream, this new park is pretty boring for most of us. As one of my guests visiting at the fourth of July celebration asked me, "What's the point?"

He also wanted to revisit an old memory by running along the old MKT path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge and was surprised to see it wide, flat and loaded with strollers, dogs and bicycles. He said it lacked its old character.

The Gathering Place is a lovely park that has walking paths, is friendly to children, strollers, leashed dogs and wildlife critters emanating from the river. It will require maintenance, constant attention, and some security concerns as well. We have a park like that. Centennial Park at 6th and Peoria (the former Central Park). It is a lovely park that has very little use by the public. After you've walked it a couple times.....

Just want to throw that out there.

It's like buying a house that is a fixer-upper: The minute you fix one thing, something else stands out that needs to be fixed.

I never liked Riverside Drive being so close to the RiverSide jogging trails- I wish there was a way to change that, either close down Riverside Drive to motor traffic and turn the street into a jogging trail, and re-locate the motor traffic elsewhere or tear down  the buildings east of the current Riverside Drive and build a new Riverside Drive road there and tear up and fill in the current Riverside Drive with grass, so the trails and motor traffic will be farther apart. But the cost of doing that would be in orbit... The west bank trails don't have vehicle traffic so near. Since I'm on the topic, I wish the casino would re-locate the jogging trail to the back near the river so runners would not have to cross a busy casino driveway. Jogging trails and street crossings are a bad mix and should be avoided. They keep talking about moving the trails but nothing is ever done. The jogging trail would really be nice if it could go  from 71st street to 101st and bypass the casino traffic totally. I enjoy the short section of trail  south of 71st street it's far from the Riverside traffic and noise but near 81st street  the trail curves east toward Riverside Drive and south to the casino, a bad section to run on.

I somewhat disagree.  There are plenty of places around to jog, bike, or walk where you can be out of sight and sound of traffic.  I like River Parks precisely because it is not so isolated.  Driving down riverside you see the people out and that in itself encourages you to join in and do the same.  Being on the trails, even during times when there are not many people out, and having the cars go by helps you feel like your not "out in the middle of the boonies".  Guess I am a city boy and like a good mix of traffic with my nature  ;D  However, I do agree that having the section in front of the casino in back of it would be a good change.

Please don't hit me....

I'm just going to say what I know a lot of people are afraid to say. Without the waterpark component of this plan (the one the Edmond legislator killed because of the way it was written was determined to be logrolling) which involved whitewater rafting, raising the Zink dam to make sure water actually covered the sand and a possible link to the rest of the river downstream, this new park is pretty boring for most of us. As one of my guests visiting at the fourth of July celebration asked me, "What's the point?"

He also wanted to revisit an old memory by running along the old MKT path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge and was surprised to see it wide, flat and loaded with strollers, dogs and bicycles. He said it lacked its old character.

The Gathering Place is a lovely park that has walking paths, is friendly to children, strollers, leashed dogs and wildlife critters emanating from the river. It will require maintenance, constant attention, and some security concerns as well. We have a park like that. Centennial Park at 6th and Peoria (the former Central Park). It is a lovely park that has very little use by the public. After you've walked it a couple times.....

Just want to throw that out there.

the area I am talking about was not a levy. Its an old railroad bed. It wasn't nice for guys in spandex cruising in top gear, but it was a nice, quiet walk or run. I like it just fine now as its more available for everyone. Its just that runners seem to think the paths should be made for them (Sauer would replace Riverside drive with a running path), bikers are sure they should be made for them and parents with strollers and dogs want everything to be for them.

That leaves a lot of other people who end up paying for amenities for those three groups but find little to like about the outcomes. A repaving of an old narrow, overgrown path with lots of character would have been fine. Of course, now I see that as part of the plan for The Gathering Place and its Whitewater park this little path needed to be enlarged and improved. But the activities aren't happening for a long time to come, maybe never. Without them the whole thing benefits fewer segments of the population. In fact its kind of boring for the rest of us.

Even Dewey made clear in his campaign remarks that real development "around the river" is contingent upon improvements and activities "on the river".

I know exactly where you are talking about I've always called the roadbed a "levy".  I guess I fail to understand what is not to like about smooth pavement and better lighting rather than crapped out asphalt that wasn't even a pleasure nor safe (IMO) to run on anymore. 

In a diverse city like Tulsa we all pay for amenities we never use: I don't have kids in TPS, there are many roads I never drive or ride on in Tulsa, I've never visited our fancier city hall, have only been to BOK center twice in five years, rarely take in our museums, yet I pay my share for those amenities, and it doesn't bother me.

Well, gee, I wish I was you.

Levees hold water back. Railroads hold trains up. The civics lesson was un-necessary.

This path was in need of a new coat of asphalt, just like they re-pave side streets rather than dig them up and pour concrete to make it smoother for high speed bikers who think they're preparing for Olympic events. It didn't need widened, marked, concreted, lit all night and made suburban pretty. The auditory, stop light on 21st is a nice touch but no one was complaining. Now cars have to stop both ways for two blocks for one pedestrian and often just run it anyway. But like I already said, I have no problem with it. Its a nice path. And I understand why they did it considering the expected traffic for the water park. It just lost its character and it now appears overdone without a water activity at the other end.

You'll never hear me complain about a water spray park at 41st and Riverside that I've never even visited either. I wish it had been there when my kids were little but everyone wanted to spend money on running paths and tennis courts back then. Never enough of them and always in demand. So they built more courts and paths then those phases diminished and they all fell into dis-repair. Parks dept didn't have money.

Now its bikes and parks and we're all supposed to feign excitement for what looks to be a pretty boring little park with limited access. You are in one of those groups that insists on all of us dedicating public assets for your current passion. I'm in one too! Try to step out of that world and look at all the overweight, elderly, infirm, unhealthy, desk chained, overworked taxpayers who help fund our passions and understand this: it was good Kaiser jumped in because had it come to a vote the population would have shrugged.

Railroads hold trains up.

i thought it was train robbers that hold trains up.
 
 :D

I somewhat disagree.  There are plenty of places around to jog, bike, or walk where you can be out of sight and sound of traffic.  I like River Parks precisely because it is not so isolated.  Driving down riverside you see the people out and that in itself encourages you to join in and do the same.  Being on the trails, even during times when there are not many people out, and having the cars go by helps you feel like your not "out in the middle of the boonies".  Guess I am a city boy and like a good mix of traffic with my nature  ;D  However, I do agree that having the section in front of the casino in back of it would be a good change.

Yes, but with the street (RiverSide Drive) being  so close  you hear traffic noise while  in the RiverSide Park and runners breath in traffic fumes and tail pipe  exhaust, and sections of the trail are darn close to the roadway so that any car that jumps a curb can hit a runner.

Yes, but with the street (RiverSide Drive) being  so close  you hear traffic noise while  in the RiverSide Park and runners breath in traffic fumes and tail pipe  exhaust, and sections of the trail are darn close to the roadway so that any car that jumps a curb can hit a runner.

Aqua, the same could be said of Guthrie Green.  It has just about zero "amenities" and the first time we visited my kids found it boring.  But, the foundation has programmed the heck out of it and now my kids love to visit there.  I believe they will do the same thing with A Gathering Place.  The programming will make the difference in turning a big open expanse into a destination.

replacing old classic light fixtures with new light fixtures built to look like the old one is not the same thing.

The proposed 'Gathering Place' along the Arkansas River gets a boost. The Tulsa Planning Commission, this afternoon,  approved a Public Unit Development permit for the project along Riverside Drive.

The park is being funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation. Planning Commissioner Bill Leighty says Tulsa has never had a gift like this.

Bill Leighty - "This is such a enormous gift to the City of Tulsa of the extent of what it's going to do for the quality of life here really won't be realized until sometime after the thing is completed."

He says the gift from the Kaiser Family is attracting other philanthropic groups to donate to the project.

Bill Leighty - "The foundation has made it clear that they're sponsoring this and they're going to fund it. But a lot of other philanthropic interests and corporate sponsors are coming forward because they want to be partner."

Construction on the first phase is expected to begin early next year.

The Gathering Place Gets a Green Light

http://kwgs.com/post/gathering-place-gets-green-light (http://kwgs.com/post/gathering-place-gets-green-light)

(http://kwgs.com/sites/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201308/BILL_Leighty.jpg)

I hate to be the skeptic here, but I'll believe it 'when cranes are in the air'...so to speak, anyway.

It's Kaiser. It will happen.

I'm curious, what kind of museum would they put here on Crow Creek?  Seems like a good place for relocating the Tulsa Children's Museum, with all of the other kid-friendly spaces nearby.
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page75-1000x772.jpg)
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page10-1000x772.jpg)

Yes, The Channels was just a pipe dream.   The 2007 Kaiser plan was the Tulsa County "River Tax" which passed in Tulsa City Limits but failed county-wide, and upon failure the CoT captured the revenue in the 2008 Streets tax.

So now look who is building a skyscraper on an artificial island in the river:

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/River-Spirit-breaks-ground-on-expansion/ksioPXO8PE6hEQ4oWM42GA.cspx

What should be done about the Arkansas River in Tulsa?

A new task force got down to work today at city Hall.   City Councilor G.T. Bynum wants to be sure lessons learned from past river proposals are remembered.

G.T. BYNUM: "We just need to do our homework better than we have done to date on this in order to develop that proposal."

Bynum says any plans must be well vetted and include input from all the communities along the river in Tulsa County.

Those at the table for today's discussion, included Mayor Bartlett and Jenks Mayor Vic Vreeland. The Tulsa Regional Chamber of Commerce President Mike Neal was also there.

If i remember the 80's correctly, and that's debatable, the whole complex is built on fill. I worked that account for the NPC during that time and watched in amazement as they pushed, dumped and re-arranged sand along the river bank.

Where is the parking?

Where is the parking?

Where the Bald Eagle and Least Tern breeding grounds were?  ;)

On a serous note, I havent been hearing anything on what consideration is being given to the endangered species there,
especially when it comes to lessening the impact of area lighting on migrations.

Perhaps I've missed this in the commentary, but I had heard they were going to move the Blair Mansion from the property.  I know understand it will be demolished in the next month or so.

Henderson must have found out the house was a replica of the Jefferson Davis home.

Perhaps I've missed this in the commentary, but I had heard they were going to move the Blair Mansion from the property.  I now understand it will be demolished in the next month or so.

It is not owned by the group who now owns the land, and that group isn't starting anything until next summer.

The guy who owns the mansion had considered turning it into a nursing home, then said he was going to move it to Colorado.

Really, I agree.

Perhaps, "A Dispersing Place next to the Running Place?"

Really, I agree.

Perhaps, "A Dispersing Place next to the Running Place?"

What will that Gathering Place be used for anyhow? Picnics? To me it just seems like alot of money spent for little gain. I'd like to see the trail system expended farther south of 101st street. That's just me.

Donate some money then.

What will that Gathering Place be used for anyhow? Picnics? To me it just seems like alot of money spent for little gain. I'd like to see the trail system expended farther south of 101st street. That's just me.

Yes. It is just you.

There will be concerts and activities everywhere. There is planned to be a museum and retail shops.

In Tulsa, we can do more than just provide places for you to run.

Does not Tulsa already have those things??  A place for concerts is on the west bank, it sounds like the same thing they have at Jenks- the area is not that large to have tons of shops a museum and the like anyhow- what about parking, parking can be a issue at the 41st street lot. I dunno it does not sound that exciting to me. :-X

You can't share the river with other activities besides running?

You sound selfish.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I just don't think a "Gathering Place" is something Tulsans will use- it will be a lot of money spent for nothing, there already is a RiverWalk center, A River Casino, the city of  Jenks has a lot going on by the River, the River west park is like a big gathering place right now. Why do the powers that be always seem to have to do something on the River, let it alone and let the people enjoy it as it is. Do we really need more shops, stores, congestion, traffic parking problems, then after that  they want to tear up the road and make that wider, soon the restful quiet and peaceful Riverfront will be nothing more than a noisy commercial mall. BTW in Cincinnati, Ohio there is a big fuss about building a street car, a few weeks ago they claimed the project was dead & buried - a money pit, the city  said they will let the voters decide on the street car issue- now suddenly without any vote of the people the street car is alive and well and new track is being layed in a hurry. No more talk of letting the people vote on it. Who wants a street car and who will use it? The city of Cincinnati has been working on the street car project for years.. Tulsa  has been fussing with the river front and riverfront projects for decades, let the riverfront  alone..   http://www.protransit.com/FAQs/  or another site... Http://www.protransit.com

Guess what...this isn't Cincinnati...nor is it Columbus or Ft Worth or Omaha.

I'm going to guess you've never been to downtown..wait a minute, that would be presumptuous of me.  You'd have to live here to come downtown.

Sheesh.

Parks are not just about what is needed today.  Thank god for Central Park.  I'm sure it wasn't a priority on some scale.  The gathering place is what some visionaries believe.  I'm with them; it's paying forward. The returns will be endless.  It's a good vision.  What is the City % of money to be spent?

What about the west river park? Why not use that as the "Gathering Place"?? - Think ahead to the future and if you think wrong or future needs change then what, more wasted money? The future people can make their own park when the time or need comes for it. The needs for the future will be best served by the people of the future. The people of 2014 can't plan for the needs of the city 50 or 75 years from now because we don't know what those needs will be.

Yeah but the same idea is at work- your  typical city pet projects just to spend taxpayer money, every city seems to have something like that going on, in Cincinnati, Ohio  it's a street car thing,

What about the west river park? Why not use that as the "Gathering Place"?? - Think ahead to the future and if you think wrong or future needs change then what, more wasted money? The future people can make their own park when the time or need comes for it. The needs for the future will be best served by the people of the future. The people of 2014 can't plan for the needs of the city 50 or 75 years from now because we don't know what those needs will be.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I just don't think a "Gathering Place" is something Tulsans will use- it will be a lot of money spent for nothing, -I believe in saving  taxpayer money- there already is a RiverWalk center, A River Casino, the city of  Jenks has a lot going on by the River, the River west park is like a big gathering place right now. Why do the powers that be always seem to have to do something on the River, let it alone and let the people enjoy it as it is. Do we really need more shops, stores, congestion, traffic parking problems, then after that  they want to tear up the road and make that wider, soon the restful quiet and peaceful Riverfront will be nothing more than a noisy commercial mall. BTW in Cincinnati, Ohio there is a big fuss about building a street car, a few weeks ago they claimed the project was dead & buried - a money pit, the city  said they will let the voters decide on the street car issue- now suddenly without any vote of the people the street car is alive and well and new track is being layed in a hurry. No more talk of letting the people vote on it. Who wants a street car and who will use it? The city of Cincinnati has been working on the street car project for years.. Tulsa  has been fussing with the river front and riverfront projects for decades, let the riverfront  alone..   http://www.protransit.com/FAQs/  or another site... http://www.protransit.com

Does not Tulsa already have those things??  A place for concerts is on the west bank, it sounds like the same thing they have at Jenks- the area is not that large to have tons of shops a museum and the like anyhow- what about parking, parking can be a issue at the 41st street lot. I dunno it does not sound that exciting to me. :-X

You know they took out the amphitheater, right?

This new complex has 600 parking spots, they are not widening riverside, and the complex also has ties into 31st for traffic.

By your argument we have Admiral & Memorial walmart, we should just tear the rest down because it performs it's required duties at least adequately. Also, any stores that do anything remotely similar to walmart should also close for merely daring to cater to a similar audience.

Last time I rode through there a month ago, the amphitheater was still there.  It hasn't been used in years but it's still there.

I wish they would sell it to me. The floating amphitheater is a victim of circumstance. It is in the wrong place, at the wrong time under the wrong management.

A paid for amenity being squandered.

Yes~ I understand Kaiser is paying for it but as history shows sooner or latter taxpayers end up with some expense. IMO it's just more squandered tax  money. The jogging trail improvement was a good thing because the old trails were falling apart & crumbling, and the trails are what most people who come to River Park use so it's clear  that was a needed expense. BTW,  I also heard  that the city wants to rebuild route 66 or make it better- there always has to be some sort of money spending pet project going on be it "Vision-2525" or whatever other pet project comes up. Maybe "The Gathering Place" will turn out to be a good thing and  I hope it does, but I just think it's un-needed, then after the "Gathering Place" is built they will come back with something else to do, "let's build this or do that". As for the comments about Central Park, that was a big chunk of raw land they set aside when NY was young so residents would have someplace to go, I see no connection with that to Tulsa's issues. The West Bank River Park is hosting the Polar Bear Plunge on New Years Day at 1:PM  so it's a popular place for Tulsans. I'm thinking about doing the Polar Bear plunge again this year- I did it last year. The West Bank Park seems fine to me, there is  lots of parking, open areas, shelters, trails, so it's an   great place to  gather, Here's an idea,  why can't Kaiser pump money into that area for improvements more parking, make it bigger- the land is already there? Oh well it's JMO.

The stagnant lagoon seemed to be an issue.  Stage lighting also attracted a large number of insects.

Where would you have located it if you could have been grand poobah at the time?

The jogging trail improvement was a good thing because the old trails were falling apart & crumbling, and the trails are what most people who come to River Park use so it's clear  that was a needed expense.

No use looking back. I did not have the knowledge of the area I do now. I can't speak for what constraints and beliefs they were operating under to place it there. I can say the way they did it sealed its fate. They created a lagoon with no moving water, did not control for varying water flows (later added a useless drain pipe on the north end) and then placed unduly harsh restrictions on its best use which was for concerts. Add in a parking lot that was hard to reach and bordered against an active railroad while not holding on to the land south of it allowing a concrete plant to move in and you just have to laugh at their naivete.

Now I would insist that it be moveable with anchoring spots along the two mile stretch of lake. If you know anyone, suggest they sell it to me cheap. Working with local artists who have seen the magnificent uses in other parts of the world for these platforms, I'll make it an attraction.

But they won't, they wouldn't allow its best uses without over regulating it and it would be yet another fiasco. Because of that I would move it upstream or downstream away from city and RPA efforts at control.

The stagnant lagoon seemed to be an issue.  Stage lighting also attracted a large number of insects.

Where would you have located it if you could have been grand poobah at the time?

No use looking back. I did not have the knowledge of the area I do now. I can't speak for what constraints and beliefs they were operating under to place it there. I can say the way they did it sealed its fate. They created a lagoon with no moving water, did not control for varying water flows (later added a useless drain pipe on the north end) and then placed unduly harsh restrictions on its best use which was for concerts. Add in a parking lot that was hard to reach and bordered against an active railroad while not holding on to the land south of it allowing a concrete plant to move in and you just have to laugh at their naivete.

Cool concept. Poorly executed.

....... Meh, probably cheaper to build one there than to try and transport this one as I don’t see how it would ever make it over the LWD.

Before the Gathering Place was proposed I always thought the concrete plant and adjacent festival park could be repurposed into a larger riverfront park with a lot of the same things that will be going in by the pedestrian bridge (thanks to Kaiser).  I still think an amphitheatre would be nice to have in this location, but on terraced land facing northeast toward downtown.  This is something Gathering Place will not have, nor will it likely have the large festivals like Oktoberfest that River West has with its open space.  So there is still a need, IMO, for a larger River West Park that could include the concrete plant site.  Similar to how Austin, TX has Auditorium Shores with an amphitheatre and arts center with festival open space across the river from downtown, and Zilker Park further down (which would be similar to what the Gathering Place will be).  

Auditorium Shores site plan with amphitheatre and dog park
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/715/img/photos/2013/05/02/eb/d7/web-050313-auditorium-shores.jpg)

I think you are probably correct in your surmisals. West bank of the river will always be a tough nut to market though. Refineries, railroads, concrete plants, polluted subsurface and nearby neighborhoods that hate large groups of people nearby. Bring those Austin planners up here!

One thing neglected by SXSW, is that concrete plant is available for a golden handshake of $50 to $60 million, at least it was in 2007.  That was what was budgeted in the river tax proposal for that parcel, if I recall correctly.  Sorry, there's not a single parcel anywhere in Tulsa worth that sort of money, especially something to become a public space. Views aside, that's nothing more than grossly en-richening one individual or company on the backs of taxpayers.  I'm quite certain the city of Jenks didn't pay anywhere near that sort of ransom for the old McMichael Concrete property south of the Jenks bridge where the Aquarium and other assets now rest.   

Sadly if the owner still wants that kind of price it would have to be a larger public project, or funded by Kaiser.  I could see the city doing another river tax vote in the next couple years and it could include funds to develop a larger River West Park.  OKC spent millions in acquisition costs for its new downtown park so it is not unprecedented. 

Hopefully any kind of larger investment in a public park by the river on the west bank eventually includes a redevelopment of the adjacent government housing.  Many U.S. cities have torn down their sprawling Section 8 apartments and redeveloped them into actual neighborhoods with a mix of houses and apartments with a restored street grid.  The west bank will never be a popular area but it could be nicer than what is there now, and the area along 23rd is a gateway into the city off 75.

To me this just seems like more frills and sqandered money. I would rather have a 1 penny or so cut in sales tax and forget about all those projects. It looks like they will have to riase sales taxes again, what's next a "Vision 3"? I lived in 5 states and seen so much waste on the local level with pet projects, one example is the Bob Kerry Pedestrian bridge in Omaha connecting Nebraska to Iowa built in 2008, yes the bridge was needed and it connected the Omaha network of jog-bike trails to the trails in Iowa. What they did was build and design the most fancy frilly bridge they could, for millions of dollars more than what a simple straight brige would of cost. They could of made a simple bridge and put the millions of dollars saved in the bank for a rainy day or for other needed projects, or better yet cut the tax rate. Every city seems to have all sorts of pet projects that no one really needs or wants yet they insist on building them.. http://www.councilbluffs-ia.gov/index.aspx?NID=260

To me this just seems like more frills and sqandered money. I would rather have a 1 penny or so cut in sales tax and forget about all those projects.

One thing neglected by SXSW, is that concrete plant is available for a golden handshake of $50 to $60 million, at least it was in 2007.

To me this just seems like more frills and sqandered money. I would rather have a 1 penny or so cut in sales tax and forget about all those projects...

Tulsa has played the Eminent Domain card for much less, like when Albertsons wanted to demolish a neighborhood to build a short-lived store at 15th & Lewis.

What projects?

Short-lived?  I think Albertson’s was in that space for 10 years before they ceased operations in Tulsa.  Reasor’s still runs a store there.  IIRC, what’s there now is better than the remaining pocket neighborhood that was there.

Yeah, I can't wait for this. All of my friends are excited too. Parks are awesome, every great city has them.

What projects?

Any project that doesn't benefit kimchi's  little myopic world is not worth doing.

Other Projects like  the Route 66 rebuilding project they are just now starting to talk about- what about Zink Lake or more dams on the Arkansas River to make a new lake or a Island in the River? The rebuilding River Side Drive and  Things like that to name a few. We have a very high sales tax as it is. Sure Kaiser may pay for The Gathering Place, but trust me it'll still end up costing taxpayers money in the end (plus maintenance of the area). Maybe it's just me and my old fashioned ways but I'd rather have a cut in taxes instead of more city frills, cut our sales tax by a penny and please no Vision 3 with another hike in sales tax or a extension of current tax hikes when they expire. Columbus, Ohio had  issues with stadiums in the 1990's  the voters kept turning it down so they just went ahead and built a new stadium and a new arena anyhow. They also knocked down a perfectly good old time stadium ball park  so they can build another one. The city of Columbus, Ohio also has a 2% Income Tax, yep Ohio residents pay federal income taxes, state income taxes and city income taxes and in some case they even have school income taxes even though prop. taxes are sky high. I lived in 5 states and seen it all.  If they build the Gathering Place I hope it all works out, but I'm just no big fan of doing it.

The West Bank River Park is hosting the Polar Bear Plunge on New Years Day at 1:PM  so it's a popular place for Tulsans. I'm thinking about doing the Polar Bear plunge again this year- I did it last year. The West Bank Park seems fine to me, there is  lots of parking, open areas, shelters, trails, so it's an   great place to  gather, Here's an idea,  why can't Kaiser pump money into that area for improvements more parking, make it bigger- the land is already there? Oh well it's JMO.

Yep, Tulsa has plenty of fine parks, parks of all sizes from big to small neighborhood parks.

Any project that doesn't benefit kimchi's  little myopic world is not worth doing.

What projects?

The Projects on Peoria & 61st. :)

If all goes according to plan, Tulsans could see water in the Arkansas River — permanently — by mid-2021.

A big project on the river is closer to getting started, as improvements to Zink Dam should get permit approval from the Army Corps of Engineers in the next two weeks.

Vision 2025 Program Director Kirby Crowe said Corps approval is important for more than that one project.

"River Parks has accepted all the permit conditions," Crowe said. "It's been nearly a two-year process with the regulatory agencies during the permitting time, and this sets the example for all of the low-water dam projects."

The permit covers improvements to the dam itself and changes to the shoreline that are part of the Gathering Place park design.

Approval of the Zink project may open the door to low-water dams in Sand Springs and at the Tulsa-Jenks border. Altogether, they mean water in the river all the time.

Crowe said the Corps will have to approve the projects separately and as a whole, however.

"There will also be an Environmental Impact Statement document done, a NEPA [National Environmental Policy Act] document that addresses the cumulative impacts of all of the projects," Crowe said.

The total estimated cost of the dams was $163.5 million in 2010. Tulsa City Council's River Infrastructure Task Force has asked for updated cost estimates.

At its second meeting, held Thursday, the task force went over a 2012 report from the River Development Task Force. Architect Herb Fritz was chair of the 2012 task force. He said the city has always been good at planning river development but hasn't always been able to follow through.

"There were some opportunities to do some things many, many years ago that certainly would have helped us in terms of development now," Fritz said. "Right now, we have to go back and rebuild a dam that was built in the '70s. But it's been too long. Something else should have been done, maybe in the '90s."

Fritz said Tulsa can still implement many of the 2012 task force's ideas and take full advantage of the Arkansas River.

My big issue with thye gathering place is developments like that and others like the river dams always end up with  more taxes and turn into a perpetual thing that never ends. When  A "Temp" tax is about to expire they always hurry up and ask for a extention then another extention on the extention, til the temp tax finally is made perm. They build one thing thing and want to do more or go back to the first thing and make it better. This all works out to be a perpetual thing. I'd like to keep most of the RiverSide area undeveloped and wild in it's natural state with nothing more than a trail running thru it so people can see the natural wildlife in action. Why build up and choke out the river area?  Besides River Parks in it's natural state left alone costs no tax  money and that's a good thing.

  Besides River Parks in it's natural state left alone costs no tax  money and that's a good thing.

My big issue with thye gathering place is developments like that and others like the river dams always end up with  more taxes and turn into a perpetual thing that never ends. When  A "Temp" tax is about to expire they always hurry up and ask for a extention then another extention on the extention, til the temp tax finally is made perm. They build one thing thing and want to do more or go back to the first thing and make it better. This all works out to be a perpetual thing. I'd like to keep most of the RiverSide area undeveloped and wild in it's natural state with nothing more than a trail running thru it so people can see the natural wildlife in action. Why build up and choke out the river area?  Besides River Parks in it's natural state left alone costs no tax  money and that's a good thing.

The article is confusing, all three dams will be finished by 2021?  They are working on Zink Dam right now.  

My big issue

Low water dams by 2021.  Watcha got Kirby?

Sorry for the delay, that is the schedule forward if construction funding is provided.  Presently the 404 permit for Zink has been accepted (it could be completed 3 years form going forward) and the environmental permitting for three other locations (Sand Springs, S. Tulsa/Jenks, and Bixby) are set to proceeding in a programmatic EIS methodology.

So 3 years from permit approval that was just granted for Zink Dam = 2017.  This is the project to raise the dam 3 feet, fix leaks/broken gates and change the design on the south side to make it safer?

And with permitting and construction (and good luck) the other dams could be built by 2021?  That would be pretty remarkable if that happens.

Is the plan to still have the Sand Springs dam be higher to better regulate flow into the "lakes" below?  I imagine the Jenks dam will be the first new dam built because of the Creeks big investments in that area.

What part of “privately funded” and future maintenance costs being set aside are you struggling with?

Just the part where they keep asking taxpayers for more money. Good- it's privately funded, that means we can roll back the last penny sales tax increase then.... Now they talk about a Juvie Detention center- heck, use and  expand an old school for it, make it into a work camp not a rec center for our violent youth. Maybe if the kids worked all day they will be to tired to cause trouble and it'll get them ready for the real world. I'm against that. But what do I know looks like another penny sales tax coming down the pike to coddle our violent youth in a modern center..

Just the part where they keep asking taxpayers for more money. Good- it's privately funded, that means we can roll back the last penny sales tax increase then.... Now they talk about a Juvie Detention center- heck, use and  expand an old school for it, make it into a work camp not a rec center for our violent youth. Maybe if the kids worked all day they will be to tired to cause trouble and it'll get them ready for the real world, use what is already there. I'm against building a new juvie detention center. But what do I know- looks like another penny sales tax coming down the pike to coddle our violent youth in a modern luxuery center-- I can see it now  big  60" TV sets scattered all over the fancy new building...  Heck put in a olympic size swimming pool, tennis courts, a big gym and a game room with free smart phones to all the inmates. If I was king the juvies would be toiling in a work camp sleeping on cots doing chores.

Just the part where they keep asking taxpayers for more money. Good- it's privately funded, that means we can roll back the last penny sales tax increase then.... Now they talk about a Juvie Detention center- heck, use and  expand an old school for it, make it into a work camp not a rec center for our violent youth. Maybe if the kids worked all day they will be to tired to cause trouble and it'll get them ready for the real world, use what is already there. I'm against building a new juvie detention center. But what do I know- looks like another penny sales tax coming down the pike to coddle our violent youth in a modern luxuery center-- I can see it now  big  60" TV sets scattered all over the fancy new building...  Heck put in a olympic size swimming pool, tennis courts, a big gym and a game room with free smart phones to all the inmates. If I was king the juvies would be toiling in a work camp sleeping on cots doing chores.

We go out of state or out of town to see historical places. Also when we do the cities roads look so much better. We went to Dallas and their whole city looks like 71st. Everything is nice and neat.

What we just lost:

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/4e/74ed33a1-b590-5014-9fd0-d99cef807046/52ecab1778519.image.jpg)

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/3c/a3cabf9f-5bbb-5a94-9361-496a93fee4e6/52ecab15dd87e.image.jpg)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/blair-mansion-demolition-begins/article_17a17c6c-8b2a-11e3-83fc-0017a43b2370.html
Seems like this was a bit of a planning failure...

Could have been part of the new park as an historical element, a museum or a restaurant.

Could have been part of the new park as an historical element, a museum or a restaurant.

The Gathering will be another generation's vision.

I surmise its more the foundation's vision than his though he probably has strong influence. My understanding is that part of the rules of the money being sheltered from taxes is that you don't direct the foundation.

Its ironic to me that yet another landmark has failed to be preserved in favor of demolition and rebuilding. "....an organization focused on intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa". Well, at least its a revitalization of sorts.

Sure looks a lot like the relatively unused Central Park development. Photographers will love it.

Having lived here in the 1970's and watching downtown and near downtown be disassembled and left vacant for decades while planners and the public were fed the same watercolor drawings of vibrant malls, water features and throngs of visitors you'll have to excuse my skepticism. For decades I've watched historical buildings be flattened by OSU for no reason (to wit Tulsa's first firestation that housed horse drawn firetrucks), countless river development scenarios, watched TCC cannibalize potential in favor of suburban style parking and watched public school buildings left to deteriorate and then be razed. Cherry Street is half vacant, Pearl has been given over, and imo Brady may be over hyped.

 And I have to tell you, the same remarks were made during those debacles. Things like, "these aren't historically important", "these are pos structures", "this is what the public wants", "Its private property and they can do what they want", "no one will ride mass transit or trains". And many of them were accurate. Nonetheless, these buildings were the character of the city and now our character is flat parking lots, vacant land and pretty watercolor renderings.  I am glad you all have faith in these "leaders" and that it all works out.

The truth is this city cannot support its current division by geography, income, race and employment. We simply don't have an affluent, growing population and that means we will continue to devour one area after another as we try to attract and nurture the coveted young, tech brats who have little appreciation for history, character, quality construction and legacy just like we did the yuppies before them. The pie simply isn't getting bigger and we turn on each other.

I am out of the mainstream of the community and am aggressively searching for a more palatable city that follows through on its promises and values its heritage in practice rather than in library photo collections. I know that won't bother many of you (Guido...) but it should. I committed for four decades as an adult, raised a family and contributed my share and now I feel like none of it is much respected. Many of my friends feel the same way and have given up on any real growth politically and economically here. We'll serve out our time here, make money here, we'll capitalize on our wise decisions in our youth here, but its not our city anymore.

Houses don't need to be preserved because a lot of people drove past them a lot.  I have faith in their plan for the park and if it was a make or break for the park they can rebuild it. 

On this site stood a house that a lot of people drove past
Built 1952
Raised Feb 1, 2014

The truth is this city cannot support its current division by geography, income, race and employment. We simply don't have an affluent, growing population and that means we will continue to devour one area after another as we try to attract and nurture the coveted young, tech brats who have little appreciation for history, character, quality construction and legacy just like we did the yuppies before them. The pie simply isn't getting bigger and we turn on each other.

Conan, just drove by Cherry Sunday nite (Peoria to Harvard). Other than the really smart redevelopment of the Colony(?) building which is empty by design, there are lots of empty, for lease, or just plain empty locations. Worse than that many of the businesses seem to have not lasted very long when they were rented. Either the rents are too high, the tenants poor planners or the area isn't drawing well. IMO its all three.

I imagine it did look like a ghost town on a Sunday night.  The area people consider Cherry Street Proper is Peoria to Utica.  There’s been good stability on that stretch for some time.  If you extend it as far as Lewis, it’s dominated by medical professionals and attorneys, with very little turn-over.

Other than the subdivided spaces closer to Harvard, there’s been little turnover on the Lewis to Harvard stretch of 15th over the last 10-20 years. Even businesses I thought would be marginal have done well for a long time, like Momma Trizza’s, The Bead Merchant, Pie Hole, Cheap Thrills.  The equipment rental place has been there for 15-20 years, Bewley Sweeper has been there well over 30 years, and University of Wash probably 20 years.  I’ll drive it this afternoon and take a look, maybe there’s been a sudden cataclysm that claimed businesses I still imagine being there.  ;D

to be accurate, it was Saturday nite. I was watching the Superbowl on Sunday too.

The area from Lewis to Harvard has had its deaths. The Scooter shop,

Cherry Street proper has lots of vacant space on the south side between Utica and the Church. The new health food store looks really slow on the north. White Owl is over. We ate at Doe's on a Saturday nite recently and were...alone. Enjoyed talking to the owner and his dog though. I remember a children's store that was nearby but I think its gone now. The Lincoln center is slow as well. Is TeKei still there? My guess is that retail is a bust on that stretch. Restaurants, medical, insurance, banks, lawyers, the carwash and franchises are ok because of nearby hospital business.

Hey, I like these areas. I don't say this from just driving by. I drive partiers, reunions and organizations around town. They seldom request Cherry Street. Brady and, to a lesser extent Brookside, command them. But Tulsa has always been that way. An area gets hot, everyone wants to go there...until the next hot area comes. We aren't growing fast enough to support them all. Brookside is lucky to have a demographic living around it that is large and patronizes the area often by foot. Cherry got ravaged to the north and has to share with Utica Square to the south.

White owl is relocating.  The building owners are putting something else in of their own.  Doe's has driven me away. The Snail is doing few any favors by keeping its doors open, (IMO).  

Sounds like I need to take Aqua out for a beer and cheer him up.

I'm changing clothes to go run a mile or so. I've drank so much beer, rum, wine and vodka and eaten so well the last month that I am soft, sloppy fat and angry about it. Grew a good beard though.

We'll see if that helps my attitude. Patience appreciated.

Townsend and I will meet you out for a beer.  Been too long anyhow.

What's that Arlo Guthrie lyric?....one person talking alone may just be crazy, two people talking are conspiratorial, three and you got a movement!

I could use some inspiration. Name a place and a time.

Fur shop?  Hodges bend?  What nights work?

Doe’s has managed to stay there for at least 6-7 years I’m aware of.  No thanks to me, that’s for certain.

closer to 11 I think

Let’s let the weather clear out and pick a day/evening next week.

Wow, I feel so left out.   ;)

Any day next week but the evening of the 10th. I have never been inside the Fur shop or Hodges Bend but both look interesting. Anyone who could tolerate having a beer with an opinionated, out of touch, overly sensitive, creative, Welsh/English/Cherokee, native Tulsan....is welcome to drink with me.

Irish...we can complain about the over-seasoned local cuisine. 

Any day next week but the evening of the 10th. I have never been inside the Fur shop or Hodges Bend but both look interesting. Anyone who could tolerate having a beer with an opinionated, out of touch, overly sensitive, creative, Welsh/English/Cherokee, native Tulsan....is welcome to drink with me.

Our ancestors all have in common a hatred of the British and a mistrust of government.

crap, I'm a descendent of William the conquer, so I better keep my distance.

Sent from my galaxy, far far away, with tapatalk

No problem How's.  The Scotts during that period never painted their faces blue - Mel Gibson added it for dramatic effect.  He also left out all the raping and murder done by Wallace against Scottish towns that stayed "neutral".   

Our ancestors all have in common a hatred of the British and a mistrust of government.

Awesome.  I'm a direct descendent of William Wallace (yes, that one).

I will not, however, paint my face blue.

We went to a haunted house in the Ma Hu.  I'm thinking it was '75 or '76.

Never heard of Ma Hu.  Pray tell the location and back story?

http://groupon.com/deals/the-shadows-edge-haunted-house  >> It's easy to get to it's located a block north from I-80 at the 84th street exit. Best haunted house I ever been to. Oh yeah, outside of the haunted house is a haunted yard too.

Name of the forum is "Tulsa Now".  Not "Omaha Now"....

The idea of the forum is to make Tulsa a better place to live, by looking at what others cities have and do, it can inprove life here in Tulsa- widen your horizions and look outside the city limits.... Tulsa is not a bubble

We're talking about a Tulsa park in the works and you go off on a tangent about an Omaha haunted house.

How about staying on topic, even if you don't live here.

He lives in a bubble, or is it a vacuum? I'm not sure which it is.

I think it’s a dust bag of a vacuum cleaner, actually.  Explains a few things.

Look what Jenks wants to build down the river:

http://tulsa.craigslist.org/off/4332295234.html

'cause the riverfront is under-served by six-story bank buildings?

TIGER Grant round two. The city of Tulsa is attempting again to get a federal transportation grant to help fund improvements to Riverside Drive as part of the Gathering Place project. City Engineer Paul Zachary says the dollars would go only for public use aspects of the project like Riverside and the pedestrian bridge. This time the city is seeking between $11 and $14 million. Applications are due the end of April and awards will be announced sometime around Labor Day.      

A similar application for nearly $15 million was rejected last year, but Zachary says questioned areas have been addressed, and chances are better this time around.

Former Tulsa City Councilor Robert Gardner will be the Mayor’s Director of River Development. The focus will be on getting and keeping water in the river to encourage development along its’ banks. Gardner says he went to Mayor Bartlett several weeks ago and offered to help. He says one person with a total focus on the river should be able to help move things along.

Gardner, a city councilor from 1994-1998, will begin immediately and will not be paid for his work.

Is this a paid position or honorary?

To bring Patric up to speed, here's a current photo

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/first-oklahoma-bank-adds-bling-atop-new-headquarters-in-jenks/article_8910c22d-37c6-5e1a-8a29-3d7185bfac2d.html

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/0c/c0c87d59-e688-56d9-a820-cd7d25e9abf2/52fdcd42a178f.image.jpg)

Tulsa Mayor Appoints River Development Director

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201403/Robert_Gardner.jpg)

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-mayor-appoints-river-development-director (http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-mayor-appoints-river-development-director)

Well I’ll be damned.

Tulsa's river task force is trying to figure out how to pay for ongoing maintenance a system of low-water dams would need.

A tax increment financing district was one proposal, but those are better for building projects than they are for funding upkeep. Economic Development Coordinator Jim Coles said a business improvement district may work.

"They allow for property owners to pay an assessment annually, which is collected up and then used to do common maintenance, upkeep things — maybe street sweeping or landscaping downtown," Coles said. "There could be something more along the lines of general maintenance to a dam."

Putting water in the Arkansas River also comes with a challenge for Tulsa's storm water system.

Many outlets for the distribution system that feeds into the river weren't designed to be underwater all the time, but they will be if low-water dams are built. City Engineer Paul Zachary said not preparing would cause big problems.

"That's the worst thing that can happen, is that pipe falling off, and then we end up with some type of a sinkhole form or something like that up the bank," Zachary said, adding that work needs to be done "all up and down" the river.

The county took an inventory of the system, but there's no estimate of the cost yet.

The task force is due to report to the mayor in about six weeks.

Tulsa’s river task force will wait at least another month for a firm estimate on how much it will cost to prepare the city’s storm water system for water in the river.

Gaylon Pinc with the Program Management Group gave the group a ballpark estimate and said he’s relieved it wasn’t in the tens of millions of dollars range.

"We're probably looking at a million or less to do the storm sewers, perhaps a couple million if we did all of the bad banks stabilization work," Pinc said. "That's a small part when you're looking at a $43 million dam reconstruction part with recreational features."

A survey shows about 10 percent of the Arkansas River’s 84 miles of shoreline will need stabilizing.

Those projects and others designed to put water in the river could get a funding boost from a Vision 2025 surplus.

The "medium" surplus is around $54 million. Once county commissioners formally acknowledge it, the Vision Authority will decide how to spend it.

Vision 2025 Program Director Kirby Crowe says they’ll have some restrictions, though.

"To say just, blanketly, 'Let's put it to the river, it fits' — you have to look at the individual benefit of the project and make sure it does to avoid a taxpayer suit," Crowe said.

The Vision Authority consists of representatives from communities throughout Tulsa County, many of which have already invested in the river.

To bring Patric up to speed, here's a current photo

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/first-oklahoma-bank-adds-bling-atop-new-headquarters-in-jenks/article_8910c22d-37c6-5e1a-8a29-3d7185bfac2d.html

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/0c/c0c87d59-e688-56d9-a820-cd7d25e9abf2/52fdcd42a178f.image.jpg)

Is this building design supposed to be a modern reinterpretation of something from South Beach in Florida?  It's really kind of ugly.

I've noticed some clearing of brush along the river's edge at 45th on the East side. 

Is this the beginning of a larger project or was this an isolated thing?

TULSA, Okla. (AP) — Nineteen donors have committed more than $40 million for the city's newest park along the Arkansas River, pushing the total contributions for the planned project over the $100 million mark.

The George Kaiser Family Foundation — which will contribute $200 million toward the project— announced the pledges this week for the park, called "A Gathering Place for Tulsa."

Kaiser is a lifelong Tulsan and one of the wealthiest people in the country. He's chairman of BOK Financial Corp. and a major shareholder in various energy and technology companies.

The donations will help fund the construction of the nearly 91-acre park and seed its operating endowment. The project's fundraising goal is $150 million.

More information about the park can be found at www.agatheringplacefortulsa.com.

So this "up to $150M project" is now over $300M in donations.

Yes, but according to Uncle Kimchi, this is still a rip off to taxpayers.

That reminded me of another standard item at Tulsa parks when I grew up

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2658/4023852734_50409ec2cb.jpg)

Those were always best in direct sun in July.

Oh, the burn...

Just like hot vinyl car seats when wearing shorts.

OMG, had a 1978 Malibu at one point that I could hardly turn the key tumbler over in if the car had sat out in the sun for too long (this was long before the foldout windowshades were in fashion).  Remember how those were textured.  You'd burn a semi-permanent pattern into your fingers with those.

I guess if you wanted to thwart the police fingerprinting you, that would be a good way of doing it.

They are wanting to add some more night life stuff down around 31st street.

I could imagine a little Thomas Kinkaid village type thing in that area.

A friend is looking at buying a house near 31st & Detroit.  One of his biggest issues with the location is that there are no sidewalks on 31st to be able to walk to Brookside or the river trails.  Hopefully that is something that will be added as this park is constructed, so people can actually walk there.  The trail along Crow Creek is also an important connection to this park from Brookside.

I just threw up a little.

-2 artist integrity points.   :D

I know I know.  On the one hand I can't stand Thomas Kinkade if his stuff is looked at as "fine art" to hang on your living room walls (Please NO people!). But on the other, as a Disney fan, I have to admit I really like his Disney stuff lol.  I think that's more the category his work should fit into.

So are you saying doing Kinkade knock-offs could be in your future or not?  ;D

Only if they are Disney related and perhaps with an Art Deco twist here and there.  ;D

Only if they are Disney related and perhaps with an Art Deco twist here and there.  ;D

But as for Crow Creek, look up "Thomas Kinkade Lamplight Village" or "Cobblestone Brooke".   Something like that that kind of fits the character of the neighborhoods nearby and having art galleries and cafe's.  Hokey I know, but something like that would work there.

I actually more like the Pinocchio, Beauty and the Beast and Cinderella ones better.

But as for Crow Creek, look up "Thomas Kinkade Lamplight Village" or "Cobblestone Brooke".   Something like that that kind of fits the character of the neighborhoods nearby and having art galleries and cafe's.  Hokey I know, but something like that would work there.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Slowly but surely the low to moderate cost apartment housing along Riverside has disappeared. Some of it thankfully. The more confident owners are that the area will support higher rents, the more likely "mixed" will not materialize. Westport could be on the chopping block if any substantial development arrives on that side.

Good news is that my old unit from the mid 70's and the olympic size pool and clubhouse escaped the dozer. for now.

It’s Kaiser’s ball, so I’m going to trust it will happen for now.

Left or right?

Tulsa's next traffic bottleneck will be Riverside Drive. The City held a meeting last night to detail how the construction of 'A Gathering Place for Tulsa' will impact Riverside Drive.

There will be lane shifts and closures, and this time next year the entire roadway will be closed near the Pedestrian Bridge. That means drivers will have to find new routes into and out of downtown Tulsa.

The roadway will be ripped-up and replaced along with utilities in that same area. City leaders say while it will be an inconvenience in the short term, the new world-class park will be worth the wait.

Left or right?

I still remember the rage expressed by runners when the path was interrupted to build the low water dam. People don't like their regular routines changed.

I expect the BA and HWY 75 will get much more crowded.  Thankfully the NB 75/244 bridge over the Arkansas is scheduled to be finished on August 4th.

I expect the BA and HWY 75 will get much more crowded.  Thankfully the NB 75/244 bridge over the Arkansas is scheduled to be finished on August 4th.

Any plans on 75 getting widened to 6 lanes within the next year?

Gawd I hope not.

It's Oklahoma.

Think about it though.  It'd bring Glenpool to your front door.  Glenpool!

I expect the BA and HWY 75 will get much more crowded.  Thankfully the NB 75/244 bridge over the Arkansas is scheduled to be finished on August 4th.

August 4 sounds more like the opening date for the Lewis bridge over I44.

Channel 6 was reporting this morning it will be closed through summer.  Not sure if they mean as until Sept. 21 or another interpretation.

Which summer?

Where did you hear that?

That’s less than two weeks.

I drove past and rode near there last night, sure looks like more than two weeks worth of work left.  What I looked at on ODOT’s web site says “closed through spring 2015."

The River Parks Board of Trustees this morning voted unanimously to accept what is believed to be the largest gift to a public park in the history of the United States.

"It will make a huge and wonderful difference to Tulsa," Board Chairwoman Robin Ballenger said before the vote.

The city of Tulsa and Tulsa County on Thursday will receive what is believed

In the small boardroom of River Parks Authority, officials from the George Kaiser Family Foundation will donate A Gathering Place for Tulsa to the authority.

The gift is estimated at $350 million, including approximately $50 million for operations and maintenance.

The previous largest gift to a public park was $100 million to the Central Park Conservancy in New York, according to the foundation.

Jeff Stava, project manager for A Gathering Place, said the foundation is simply keeping its promise.

“We have always told the community that this is a gift to the community,” Stava said. “This is the way for us to express that gift by donating it to River Parks — which is a Title 60 authority — and the beneficiaries are the city of Tulsa and Tulsa County.”

The complicated legal transaction will leave River Parks as the owner of 58.37 acres of new park land on which Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will be constructed. Operation and maintenance of the park will be handled by the GKFF Parks Conservancy LLC.

The properties on which Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will be built include the Blair mansion site; land along the Midland Valley Trail; the River Parks trail from approximately 27th to 34th streets; and the parking lot on the northeast corner of 31st Street and Riverside Drive.

The River Parks Authority will oversee the construction of the public park, Stava said.

“They will own them (the park properties), and we will be managing, operating, securing and programming the park,” Stava said. “And by partnering with River Parks we are ensuring that it will continue in the same fine legacy that they have had as custodians of our River Parks trail system. This park will fall into that same line of excellence.”

River Parks was established in 1974. The trail system includes 26 miles of asphalt trails that run from 11th Street to 101st Street on the east bank of the Arkansas River and 11th Street to 71st Street on the west bank of the river. The trail system also includes the Katy Trail, which runs from downtown Tulsa to Adams Road in Sand Springs.

Stava said users of the River Parks trails won’t notice the difference when A Gathering Place becomes part of River Parks.

“We will have a seamless and coordinated transition between the adjacent River Parks owned-and-operated properties and the property that is managed by the foundation,” he said.

The official ground-breaking for the park is scheduled for Sept. 20. The event will run from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., with the ground-breaking scheduled for noon.

Stava said there will be live music, 30 food trucks and more at the event.

“We are encouraging families to bring a picnic lunch or to enjoy the food trucks,” Stava said. “QuikTrip will be there with drinks.”

Once the party is over, the work begins.

“On Monday, the 22nd, we will be putting up the fences along Riverside Drive, starting underground work and dirt work, and starting to get the site prepared for construction,” Stava said.

Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will span from approximately 27th Street to 31st Street on the east side of Riverside Drive and from 26th Street to 33rd Place along the west side of the street.

Construction is expected to be completed by late 2017, with two more phases planned that would bring the total park space to nearly 100 acres.

I guess that puts the whiners in their place after the failure of the ’07 River tax package.

See, Kaiser will end up donating $400 million or more to the Riverparks area before it’s all said and done, without needing Tulsa voters to dig in their pockets for a matching fund.

I’d be really curious to know if the ’07 tax package was Kaiser’s idea in the first place or if Randi Miller thought she could get a smash and grab slush fund for the county out of the taxpayers.  He’s been more than forthcoming with money for RP improvements ever since. 

When do we get to rename this project. AGPFT is kinda weak.

Gawd. I thought it was just me. Isn't Tulsa more creative than that? Artist?

My recollection is the "powers the be" were beginning the process of putting together a package in a fashion similar to what GT has done in the last year.  The group that put forth "The Channels" pushed the timeline up and forced the city/county/chamber to do something immediately.  That led to the poorly marketed package that was placed on the ballot.

Seven years later I still hear people lament or express joy The Channels project/building condos in the river tax wasn't passed.  Amazing considering the project on the ballot had nothing to do with The Channels.

Tulsa Happy Fun Time Place

Article in the TW today indicates Phase I of park would be 58.37 acres in size.  It also notes that there are two more planned phases that would "bring the total park space to nearly 100 acres."  Can anyone shed light on what Phases I and II will include and where they are to be located?  Thanks.

My recollection is the "powers the be" were beginning the process of putting together a package in a fashion similar to what GT has done in the last year.  The group that put forth "The Channels" pushed the timeline up and forced the city/county/chamber to do something immediately.  That led to the poorly marketed package that was placed on the ballot.

Seven years later I still hear people lament or express joy The Channels project/building condos in the river tax wasn't passed.  Amazing considering the project on the ballot had nothing to do with The Channels.

In a general sense, Phase 1 is north of the pedestrian bridge. Phase 2 and 3 move south where the 31st St parking lot is, and where the apartments south of 31st are.

The project was a moving target with more crap added weekly in order to buy votes.  It was also being proposed er pushed well in advance of studies by the Corps of Engineers as to what could or could not be done in terms of development and water impoundment.  It also proposed an egregious golden handshake to the owner of the concrete plant at the expense of taxpayers when we had an M & E facility which was supposed to be moved to the old Downtown Airpark as a part of the agreement on putting City Hall in the Borg Cube.  

One excuse I heard for the timing was there was some fear of an impending recession and if they waited much longer, it would never get passed.  History shows the financial apocalypse happened about nine months later.

It didn’t help the image with voters that no V-2025 money had been spent on the river at that point and the subsequent spin to try and mitigate those sort of comments left many feeling lied to or talked down to.  That led many voters to believe this might be one more package of broken promises.

In retrospect, V-2025 has been a major bonanza for Tulsa County.  This coming from someone who voted against it.  I’d vote for an extension if it meant more of what we have gotten from the first package.  Well subtracting the the contribution to Michael Sager’s First Street Lofts.  ;)

While I think The Channels muddied the waters in voters' minds on the failed river vote, I think the real problem was it came too soon after V2025.  The V2025 skeptics were still predicting gloom and doom and most of the projects, in particular the BOK Center, had not yet been completed and proven successful.  Even with those problems, however, as I recall a majority of Tulsans voted yes, but it was defeated primarily by voters in Tulsa County towns with no connection to the river (Owasso and BA).

I'm still concerned about the rush to grab the extention of the V2025 tax without a full discussion and consideration of what else that tax money might be used for to improve Tulsa (transit, housing, etc.).  Unfortunatley, "putting water in the river" is perceived as a legacy making project by politicians.

Whatever happens to the river itself, The Gathering Place is truly a transformational project for this city in a way that I'm not sure a lot of Tulsans have fullly grasped.

While I think The Channels muddied the waters in voters' minds on the failed river vote, I think the real problem was it came too soon after V2025.  The V2025 skeptics were still predicting gloom and doom and most of the projects, in particular the BOK Center, had not yet been completed and proven successful.  Even with those problems, however, as I recall a majority of Tulsans voted yes, but it was defeated primarily by voters in Tulsa County towns with no connection to the river (Owasso and BA).

I'm still concerned about the rush to grab the extention of the V2025 tax without a full discussion and consideration of what else that tax money might be used for to improve Tulsa (transit, housing, etc.).  Unfortunatley, "putting water in the river" is perceived as a legacy making project by politicians.

Whatever happens to the river itself, The Gathering Place is truly a transformational project for this city in a way that I'm not sure a lot of Tulsans have fullly grasped.

However, the Gathering is a project of its own and the Water in The River movement to me is only mildly connected to it. There is no physical connection, other than the pedestrian bridge and no opportunity to experience the river or use it imaginatively. Its just adding an expensive coat of paint to the background wall a fine piece of art is hanging on. It won't take long for folks to realize that the real benefit of the dams is to the casino and nearby Jenks.

No doubt the ponds will fill with sediment and no provision for dredging has been described. Soon the fertilizer and salt runoff will give them a nice green hue until, God forbid, they are scoured by one of those 100-300 year flood scenarios.

However, the Gathering is a project of its own and the Water in The River movement to me is only mildly connected to it. There is no physical connection, other than the pedestrian bridge and no opportunity to experience the river or use it imaginatively. Its just adding an expensive coat of paint to the background wall a fine piece of art is hanging on. It won't take long for folks to realize that the real benefit of the dams is to the casino and nearby Jenks.

The gathering place goes all the way down to the river, including walking paths and trails at water level. Riverside Drive goes under the park.

I've seen the renderings. Those walking paths, trails and a bridge over Riverside Drive are already there. I don't think you're with me. There is no real active connection with the river other than what is already there. The river might as well be filled in with concrete, painted blue and made into a skate park for all its relevance to the Gathering Place. (I hope the young Lortons don't get any ideas from that....)

I've seen the renderings. Those walking paths, trails and a bridge over Riverside Drive are already there. I don't think you're with me. There is no real active connection with the river other than what is already there. The river might as well be filled in with concrete, painted blue and made into a skate park for all its relevance to the Gathering Place. (I hope the young Lortons don't get any ideas from that....)

Had they allowed for a white water rafting area, a sluice that allowed the lakes to be interconnected, a moveable fishing platform, a water flume from the park to the river, zip lines, whatever, you would have some reason for building or elevating that dam and some reason to believe it would have economic impact. As planned it has absolutely nothing to do with the dams other than backdrop.

I must have missed these last time I went to riverside. Also missed the two giant land bridges over riverside drive and the bridge over Crow Creek with the waterside walking trails that take you from Riverside down crow creek.

(http://cl.ly/image/2o2P1R1U2a1I/Page67-1000x772.jpg)
(http://cl.ly/image/0Z1f0E3B3D11/Page58-1000x772.jpg)http://(http://cl.ly/image/130K2I3G3G2F/Page63-1000x772.jpg)

Sorry Aqua, but you are so biased against the dams that you can't even acknowledge that the river is an integral design factor for the park.  Or even that a lot of people would prefer lakes to an unstable, often-dry, and unusable river channel running right next to one of the largest recreational areas in the city.   I'm not sure where it's coming from, but I don't understand the level of antipathy you have for the dams.   Not trying to be rude, honestly, but I just don't get it.

So what Aqualad is saying is that if you aren't IN the water, either personally or in a watercraft, there is no reason to be near it or improve it.

A Gathering place brings people down to the waterfront, within inches of contacting the water, but since they don't get wet, it doesn't count.

Grizz, spin it however you desire. You're ignoring my points in favor of sarcasm (cause your arguments are weak I guess). Go forth and spread the message. I won't be living here by the time the dams are built anyway but my renters will. I'll raise the rent to help you all out.

So what Aqualad is saying is that if you aren't IN the water, either personally or in a watercraft, there is no reason to be near it or improve it.

A Gathering place brings people down to the waterfront, within inches of contacting the water, but since they don't get wet, it doesn't count.

Why not just get out of Tulsa completely?  Sell the place and not have to put up with renters.

 

Other than myself, I know of two, Conan and V2025. I will ask them, have my views changed? Am I anti-river development? Haven't I been open to discussion and flexible in my views on the river?

Why not just get out of Tulsa completely?  Sell the place and not have to put up with renters.

That aside, I agree that merely putting water in the river is not a cure for Tulsa's "problems".

"Get out of Tulsa" sounds a bit tough. I guess I could move to Bixby! Or Mounds. I just figure that by the time the park is built, the dams are built and the dust settles, I'm likely to be forced out of my home by the immense increase in appraised value (since I live a mere block from the Katy running path) that will skyrocket my ad valorem tax. So, I'll rent the place out and look for greener pastures.

No, no, yes.

What are you sorry for? I supported the dams in the previous elections. So, I am not biased. I am seeing them from a different perspective than you guys, though thats for sure. I offered in the past to conduct a trip from the Keystone Dam down to Zink Lake on my canoes and kayaks so that people on here could see what they are doing and pick my brain. No takers. I offered a ride on a double decker English bus that would or could have enlightened some folks around here. Once again no takers. Its feeling a bit personal and yet I am on record with my background while others I feel are not so forthcoming.

How many of you have fished, swam, boated, researched, promoted, invested in or otherwise utilized the river? Who has had direct experience with the new caretaker of the Gathering Place, RPA? Other than myself, I know of two, Conan and V2025. I will ask them, have my views changed? Am I anti-river development? Haven't I been open to discussion and flexible in my views on the river?

We could have such a vibrant river, canoing, kayaking, interactive science, zip lines, swimming, .....fun stuff. But folks are so thankful that a foundation has fulfilled its mission by donating funds to improve its local community that they feel any criticism is tantamount to crazy. I suggest you step back and look at what was presented to you and by who. Who stands to benefit most and why no economic numbers have been forthcoming. Then, most importantly, ask how it was presented to you. It wasn't, "What could we do with money from V2025," but "here's what we're doing with V2025 money, what kind of imput do you have?". Any salesman will tell you, you've just been had.

The complicated legal transaction approved Thursday leaves River Parks as the owner of 58.37 acres of new park land on which Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will be constructed. The GKFF Parks Conservancy LLC will be responsible for the programming, operation and maintenance of the park.

Your bitterness against RPA is well known. And I certainly don't recall you being in favor of the last river vote. I recall you greatly arguing in favor in keep the river in its current (yet unnatural) state. You repeatedly professed your love of the "braided prairie  river" if I recall correctly.

And while RPA will be the owner of the park, they will not run it. The foundation that runs Guthrie Green will run it.

Not true. Contact Kirby Crowe and review posts. I supported the last program after having pie with him, reviewing his renderings and discussing issues. Yes, I do love braided rivers.

Also do yourself some research. The foundation may control the park, but not the river and the paths. Never will. RPA owns nothing. It is public land under the auspices of the county, the city and surrounding cities.

So you got bought off for a piece of pie.

Go reread my post and see if RPA owns anything, maybe the World got it wrong, maybe not.

Bought off? You are an arrogant prick. You don't read my posts for comprehension and you and Grizz cherry pick from them while ignoring the points you can't answer. Why would I pay any attention to either of you? Oh, yeah. I won't.  

Bought off? You are an arrogant prick. You don't read my posts for comprehension and you and Grizz cherry pick from them while ignoring the points you can't answer. Why would I pay any attention to either of you? Oh, yeah. I won't. 

He was one of the whiners after the tax grab failed I keep referring to.  Kaiser’s money was gone forever because of our short-sightedness.

Fast-forward seven years and looks like before it’s all said and done Kaiser will put at least $400mm into river projects.  More than twice what he committed to the package back then.

Guys like you and I weren’t bought off.  We were ignored.  No one wanted the input of anyone with intimate knowledge of practical uses of the river as i recall.  Do you concur?

The river task force takes a bus tour of the sites for proposed low-water dams and the levee system along the Arkansas. Tulsa City Councilor Jeannie Cue’s district includes much of the east and west river bank area. County and city leaders went along on the tour, and Cue says that’s important because all jurisdictions involved have to be on the same page.

A tax is being considered that would impact citizens in communities affected by projects that would help keep water in the river.

"Federal grant OK'd for Riverside Drive improvements"

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/federal-grant-ok-d-for-riverside-drive-improvements/article_f0fde191-e253-5ec5-b528-f7a64075e04f.html

So the land bridge went away or just not covered by the grant?

I don't understand why it's so important to have water in the river, it's only for looks anyhow and with a $80 million dollar price tag a dry river looks better & better all the time. It's not worth spending all that money just to see water in the river. Let it be dry. IMO the G.P. is over kill anyhow looks like a over glorified 41st street playground to me. The trails at RiverSide are the most important thing not the frills IMO of course.

Shouldn't matter to someone who doesn't live here.

IMO of course.

I don't understand why it's so important to have water in the river, it's only for looks anyhow and with a $80 million dollar price tag a dry river looks better & better all the time. It's not worth spending all that money just to see water in the river. Let it be dry. IMO the G.P. is over kill anyhow looks like a over glorified 41st street playground to me. The trails at RiverSide are the most important thing not the frills IMO of course.

Information on Tomorrow's 'Gathering Place' Ground Breaking

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/information-tomorrows-gathering-place-ground-breaking (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/information-tomorrows-gathering-place-ground-breaking)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201409/GP_map.jpg)

Ground will be broken tomorrow for  'A Gathering Place for Tulsa'. It will begin tomorrow at 10 a.m.   Wear your picnic attire, walk the grounds with family and friends, and imagine the future that awaits Tulsa. Children will have the opportunity to participate in the noon groundbreaking ceremony!

Interesting concept... Drive from suburbia to downtown to take a shuttle to suburbia.

Interesting concept... Drive from suburbia to downtown to take a shuttle to suburbia.

Where do you live, farmland?

31st & Riverside is Suburbia?

Where do you live, farmland?

Went to the groundbreaking today. Tons of stuff to do, and they had signs all around showing where the features are going to be. There is also a 306degree theater giving a demo, but the line was longer than the iPhone line.

I wonder who thunk up the name "Gathering Place"? It seems to me  they could of came up with a better name. Oh well.

You have long criticized this project, and you had never before taken the time to actually find out what if was?

That tells me all I need to know about your stance as a "Proud Global Warming Deiner (sic)."

I wonder who thunk up the name "Gathering Place"? It seems to me  they could of came up with a better name. Oh well.

I believe it's a temporary "production name" 
I think I heard there'll be a naming contest

306 deg? Typo?

The Gathering Place according to Sundays newspaper will be a big project. I thought it was only going to be something like a over glorified playground on a big patch of green. It looks like they will even be re-doing RiverSide Drive. The article said it'll take 5-7 years to finish the whole thing and just  phase one won't be done till 2017. This is a huge undertaking.

Did you ever look at the models and renderings?  Have you ever noticed the price tag?  How many hundreds of millions of dollars does it need to be before you yourself might consider it a "big" project all on your own without the paper having to tell you it was lol?

Earlier this year or late last year it was in the national media that a philanthropist donated 100 million to NYC's central park and it was touted as the largest donation of its kind to a city park in the nations history.  I suppose what happens in Tulsa probably doesn't register to the national media types but Kaisers donation to this park trumped that by quite a bit. Plus what others have donated to this park. Then add to all of that what Kaiser has donated over the years to River Parks and other parks in Tulsa really is incredible. 

I work  long hours and don't have time to follow every city project, it did not seem like it was that big on maps of the area. My main focus has been the Jogging Trails since I'm a jogging nut. As long as the trails are there I'm happy!

The Gathering Place according to Sundays newspaper will be a big project. I thought it was only going to be something like a over glorified playground on a big patch of green. It looks like they will even be re-doing RiverSide Drive. The article said it'll take 5-7 years to finish the whole thing and just  phase one won't be done till 2017. This is a huge undertaking.

I work  long hours and don't have time to follow every city project, it did not seem like it was that big on maps of the area. My main focus has been the Jogging Trails since I'm a jogging nut. As long as the trails are there I'm happy!

So in other words it is all about don't inconvience me. Me, me, me.  Their are other trails you know.

I'm divorced

No smile

Name it 'The Kaiser'

Name it 'The Kaiser'

Maybe we could let Friendly Bear back in to make some anti-semitic remarks about Herr Kaiser.

LOL.  I forgot about that guy.

After watching that video of the 3-D Model on post #477 dated Sept. 09th, 2014. The Gathering Place looks like a carnival midway or like  a big playground for kids, with play  nets, climbing walls, this thing  & that thing  for the kids, the whole area looks crammed in too. There seems very little for adults to do there, no mention of a parking area either, it seems to me they could of thunk up something better to put there aside from just a big playground for kids. Not much "green" area there either everything is clustered together.

.... it seems to me they could of thunk up something better to put there aside from just a big playground for kids. Not much "green" area there either everything is clustered together.

The Gathering Place looks like a carnival midway

As young professional who just moved to Tulsa permanently a few months ago, this park is one of the few things that is giving me hope for the future of this city. I hope it will become a flashpoint that will help the younger generation realize that we don't have to put up with the crappy developments that the baby boomers are leaving behind.

LOL, the things some people say. Comments like need to be collected so that down the road, if or when we get another world class development proposal we can remember that a good majority of internet commentors simply don't have a clue.

As young professional who just moved to Tulsa permanently a few months ago, this park is one of the few things that is giving me hope for the future of this city. I hope it will become a flashpoint that will help the younger generation realize that we don't have to put up with the crappy developments that the baby boomers are leaving behind. World class things can exist in Tulsa, even if half the local yokals won't recognize it or downplay it because they don't understand it.

World class things can exist in Tulsa, even if half the local yokals won't recognize it or downplay it because they don't understand it.

Ditto - middle-aged and lived here for 30 years.

30 years qualifies you as a "local yokal" although I'm sure you think more highly of yourself. (As will all the "local yokals".)

Ya know this Gathering Place  project reminds me a bit of  Boston's "Big Dig" 10 or 15 years ago - anyone remember what a mess that was for Boston residents, they re-worked a whole section of the city and moved many things underground. That took about 7 years to complete I believe. http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/thebigdig/projectbackground.aspx

Ya know this Gathering Place  project reminds me a bit of  Boston's "Big Dig" 10 or 15 years ago - anyone remember what a mess that was for Boston residents, they re-worked a whole section of the city and moved many things underground. That took about 7 years to complete I believe. http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/thebigdig/projectbackground.aspx

It's like you're the eighth one.  "Dumbass Dwarf" - using your pick to mine for stupid. 

Snow White would've suffocated you in your sleep and buried you in your tiny little bed.

Did you know any Boston residents impacted by this?  I did.  Was it a pain?  Sure. 

I think I just pissed and shat myself from laughing so hard.

LOL, the things some people say. Comments like need to be collected so that down the road, if or when we get another world class development proposal we can remember that a good majority of internet commentors simply don't have a clue.

As young professional who just moved to Tulsa permanently a few months ago, this park is one of the few things that is giving me hope for the future of this city. I hope it will become a flashpoint that will help the younger generation realize that we don't have to put up with the crappy developments that the baby boomers are leaving behind. World class things can exist in Tulsa, even if half the local yokals won't recognize it or downplay it because they don't understand it.

30 years qualifies you as a "local yokal" although I'm sure you think more highly of yourself. (As will all the "local yokals".)

LOL

I am offended by the term "local yokal" (actually should be spelled yokel to be proper)....that is offensive, pejorative, and quite possibly racist!!

I prefer the term "hick from the sticks"....

Your as bad as me, I got thin skin too and get offended very easy. I found out the hard way that our U.S. constitution has no Article that says "We all have a right not to be offended" Maybe it's time to put in  some  amendment to cover that. I'm just sayin'

I tell ya what after watching that video on post #477 about the features of "The Gathering Place" it seems to me to be more like a State Fair Midway and over glorified Childrens playground. According to newspaper articles and display maps and models about what is going to be there it says: A Lodge, Adventure Playground, Great lawn, Lakeview Lawn, Blair Pond, Childrens Mist Hill, Childrens Swing Hill, Boathouse, Childrens SkyGarden, 4-Seasons Garden, Childrens Skate Bowl, Museum Hill, and a Sports Court. The jogging Trails will run thru it all on the far western side of The Gathering Place I guess they will be left as they are untouched. According to the video on post number 477 they will have climbing walls & climbing nets, paths that circle all around the area and it'll be about 100 acres in size. I would rather have the place less crowded with objects and more green space, more natural space and less of a playground environment. maybe when it's all done it'll look better. JMO.

You don't even read the crap you write.

Thats because he's a jackass

I tell ya what after watching that video on post #477 about the features of "The Gathering Place" it seems to me to be more like a State Fair Midway and over glorified Childrens playground. According to newspaper articles and display maps and models about what is going to be there it says: A Lodge, Adventure Playground, Great lawn, Lakeview Lawn, Blair Pond, Childrens Mist Hill, Childrens Swing Hill, Boathouse, Childrens SkyGarden, 4-Seasons Garden, Childrens Skate Bowl, Museum Hill, and a Sports Court. The jogging Trails will run thru it all on the far western side of The Gathering Place I guess they will be left as they are untouched. According to the video on post number 477 they will have climbing walls & climbing nets, paths that circle all around the area and it'll be about 100 acres in size. I would rather have the place less crowded with objects and more green space, more natural space and less of a playground environment. maybe when it's all done it'll look better. JMO.

It's private money that's correct- but I wish they would build something else with it other than a big playground. Maybe when it's done it will have more to it but from what I read about it and from I seen on the video in post 477 it's going to be  a jam-packed place full of bells and whistles- There is an $80 Million dollar expense to build 4 dams too, not to mention the up keep of the area when it's finished... OK, so everyone here is excited about it, I find it hard for me  to get excited about this project that's all.  I just feel the donations could be better spent on something else, or split the funds use half the money  for a Gathering Place Park  with large green areas and less frills- and use the rest of the money for other river projects/improvements like improving the west bank of the river, building a full jogging trail on the west bank down to Jenks, things like that. But that's just me & my thoughts. ???

Didn't anyone watch  that video about the Gathering Place on post #477 a few pages back? The thing is nothing but a playground for kids. The Gathering Place according to the video is broken up into 7 playground sections, there's nets to climb, bridges, a rope bridge, a pirate ship, a tiny picnic area for kids an area of little huts to play it. I would hope for something being  that extensive to be more than an playground. As I said on other posts why not use some of that loot to build a full length jogging trail on the west bank and make other west bank improvements? Why blow it all in one location, and nothing is said about parking. IMO this whole project has not been thought out fully. I hope it all turns out for the best. JMO.

As I said on other posts why not use some of that loot to build a full length jogging trail on the west bank and make other west bank improvements?

Didn't anyone watch  that video about the Gathering Place on post #477 a few pages back? The thing is nothing but a playground for kids. The Gathering Place according to the video is broken up into 7 playground sections, there's nets to climb, bridges, a rope bridge, a pirate ship, a tiny picnic area for kids an area of little huts to play it. I would hope for something being  that extensive to be more than an playground. As I said on other posts why not use some of that loot to build a full length jogging trail on the west bank and make other west bank improvements? Why blow it all in one location, and nothing is said about parking. IMO this whole project has not been thought out fully. I hope it all turns out for the best. JMO.

How many more dumbassed posts until you feel as though you're done?

Shave,

I’m borrowing from another thread, But out of curiosity, do you think young professionals like yourself would rather have a large outlet mall on the SW corner of Turkey Mountain or pristine wilderness to explore and enjoy?  Just curious if that’s one of the quality of life issues YP’s are looking for when they decide where to locate.

Turkey Mountain is a really special place. An outlet mall is not.

I'm not Shave - but no question, Turkey Mountain is a really special place. An outlet mall is not.