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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: sgrizzle on February 21, 2012, 10:36:58 am



Title: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on February 21, 2012, 10:36:58 am
New/expansion to east riverparks near 31st St. Public input sessions in March, full plan revealed in the fall:
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20120221_11_A1_CUTLIN46753

Quote
Tulsans' ideas sought for George Kaiser Family Foundation's proposed park

Quote
The George Kaiser Family Foundation wants public input into the creation of a new gathering space on two large tracts of land along the east side of Riverside Drive.

"Because this will be space for all of Tulsa to enjoy, we want the entire community to give us their ideas on what they want to see in their new park," said Jeff Stava, project manager for the foundation's proposal.

The project, estimated to cost between $100 million and $150 million, would stretch from 26th Street to just south of 31st Street.

The land includes the 33.6 acres of the Blair Mansion property at 26th Place and the 21.5-acre tract where the Crow Creek Apartments sit just south of 31st Street. Both properties are owned by the foundation.

As part of the planning process, public meetings will be held at 6 p.m. on March 6 and March 7 at the Center for Creativity on Tulsa Community College's downtown campus.

The public-input sessions will be open-house style for people to engage with members of the project team about the "potential for the site to deliver a unique experience to the community," Stava said.

He said the foundation is soliciting ideas for low-impact activities such as splash pads, tree forts, zip lines, sculpture gardens and nature trails through the wooded area there.

"Great parks in cities have all sorts of these type of activities, many of which we don't have here in our parks," Stava said.

He noted that parks draw people "for all different kinds of reasons, whether it's activities or enjoying the atmosphere of the park itself."

A small parking lot that takes up 4.2 acres sits between the two Kaiser Foundation tracts. Mayor Dewey Bartlett said it has not yet been determined whether that land is owned by the city or jointly by the city and county.

"No matter, from the city's perspective, we need to be very flexible when somebody has made a commitment to embark upon a very visionary development that is beneficial to the public," he said.

Bartlett said that while he will be supportive, the role of the public land will be determined by the foundation's final plans.

Stava said the biggest challenge for the project is unifying the sites not only with each other but also to River Parks on the west side of Riverside Drive.

"You have to be able to get people back and forth fluidly and effortlessly," he said.

He noted that the Midland Valley Trail, formerly a railroad track, sits atop a berm and is a barrier between the Blair property and the publicly owned land. Then 31st Street is a barrier between the public land and the Crow Creek Apartments site.

The most obvious barrier, he said, is Riverside Drive between River Parks and the new gathering spaces.

"This is a big creative challenge," he said. "We're asking the public for its thoughts and ideas on how to unify the sites and what the activities should be on the sites."

The foundation is using Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates, a landscape architecture firm based in Brooklyn, N.Y., to design the project based on the public input.

Stava said the firm specializes in riverfront projects, and he pointed out how it transformed the Hudson River Park, a former industrial waterfront, into a community landscape featuring a boardwalk, a carousel and expansive views of the river.

The firm's staff, Stava said, "are true park builders and focus on the essence of a site."

The foundation selected the firm after narrowing the field from 35 companies that submitted qualification packets. The firm also competed with three others in a competition process, Stava said.

"The Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates have a way of looking at things in a super-creative way. They keep the green green and make it better by weaving together landscaping and trails and all of the activities," he said

Stava said the firm has proven experience in designing "amazing parks in numerous metropolitan areas around the country, and their dedication to creating landscapes that reflect the community in which they're based made them the clear choice for this project."



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: YoungTulsan on February 21, 2012, 10:59:55 am
I want to know what the 600 or so units of apartment living will be replaced with.  Uprooting over a thousand people isn't the greatest plan for density, unless more is going to be packed in to whatever new development is put in.

And I really hope whatever is decided on incorporates a get-sh*t-done construction contractor, because I would hate to see 31st & Riverside be a construction wasteland for the majority of the next decade.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 21, 2012, 11:09:00 am
My first impression was that this is pr. They have been soliciting bids for some time now so they must have some plan in mind. So, perhaps this is a chance to do some fine tuning.

I have confidence that this is going to end up the one bright spot in River Development in my remaining years. V-2025 showed me the plans for the nearby Whitewater rafting park and if they take out the Crow Creek apartments, this one area will kick. My suggestion is to place parking on part of the land where the apartments now reside. Then utilize Crow Creek to funnel watercraft into the Whitewater park.  Direct a somewhat elevated canal across 31st, through the current parking lot to the Blair property where it empties into a centrally located shallow pond surrounded by landscaped areas. Horse rides would snake through the wooded area that backs up to the path. Get real creative and buy the path from the Parks dept and run a canal along its edge up to 21st street.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on February 21, 2012, 11:17:36 am
I want to see a new Bike crossing at the railroad bridge that is separate from the pedestrian crossing. I use the bridge both as a runner and on my bike and this old configuration is an accident begging to happen. The Midland Valley trail could use a new surface too...its getting a little weather worn.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 21, 2012, 11:31:21 am
Why couldn't they use the upper level of the rail road bridge for bikes? It could be surfaced with decking and have side rails attached.

About a year ago there were crews drilling into the MV trail bed pulling up core samples. They were pretty tight lipped about it. Maybe in preparation for a resurfacing.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 21, 2012, 11:40:21 am
Wait?  What's that?  The KFF is entertaining the idea of dropping $150 million on Riverparks development without a public tax grab?

Where's all those whiners now?  ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on February 21, 2012, 11:50:43 am
I want to know what the 600 or so units of apartment living will be replaced with.  Uprooting over a thousand people isn't the greatest plan for density, unless more is going to be packed in to whatever new development is put in.

And I really hope whatever is decided on incorporates a get-sh*t-done construction contractor, because I would hate to see 31st & Riverside be a construction wasteland for the majority of the next decade.

See also: Every other GKFF construction project. On time and well done.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on February 21, 2012, 11:57:41 am
  Just some general thoughts.

Variety of spaces.  Some open and grassy, some wooded, some flat, some "hilly", some more natural, some very structured.  Several unique looking and feeling spaces to walk/bike etc. through to make even a simple stroll as interesting as possible.

Somewhere, likely in the center of a large open area, have a high point from which people can look down upon and see the rest of the park from a "birds eye" view.  Over here see kids playing in a playground, over there Kayakers, off to the other side people running along trails or playing frisbee, walking through other trails and park/garden type areas, etc.   People love a view and they like going up to a high place.  Think the Castle in NYC central park or a "folly" in some old traditional European park, the "steps" in Rome and Paris, but it can be a contemporary stone type structure or monument type thing. At the base of this hill/structure/monument/ sculpture or whatever type high point they choose, have stairs all the way around, and that are still high enough so that people can sit and face some view of the park or river.   People gravitate to those types of places even when nobody else is around.  Acts as a central meeting place, etc.   Also a lot of these parks today look good from the "above view" with the way the parks and trails curve and have patterns that can only be appreciated from above.  So put something somewhere that people can go out on top of to look down and see all of that.  

Somewhere within the larger property bring in some water features like a small stream, or something like AquaMan mentioned, or ponds, fountain, etc.  Something to bring the river aka water into the park itself more.  It's the River Parks and the Blair Property is large, so to keep the water/river aspect in the feel and mix of the place, pull some water feature back up into the property.

Build it quality.  Would rather have a good solid foundation with only a few nice things that can be added to later, and that will last for generations than too much fluffery that will fall into disrepair and need expensive redoing in 20 or 30 years.  


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on February 21, 2012, 12:07:17 pm
Why couldn't they use the upper level of the rail road bridge for bikes? It could be surfaced with decking and have side rails attached.

About a year ago there were crews drilling into the MV trail bed pulling up core samples. They were pretty tight lipped about it. Maybe in preparation for a resurfacing.

That would be a nice improvement.  Bike on top of the pedestrian bridge (with tall railings on each side) and joggers/walkers/fishermen on the bottom.  A new coat of paint on the bridge and LED lighting would be pretty awesome too. 

I'd like to see the Crow Creek apartments rebuilt into a denser development that better utilizes Crow Creek which needs a trail connecting Brookside to the river.  Maybe 4-5 stories in some places closer to Riverside and stepping down to 2-3 stories closer to the surrounding neighborhood.

For the Blair property I would almost be in favor of keeping the eastern half natural (with the trees and horse farm) but developing the western half along the river into townhouses and extending the existing Maple Ridge grid south in front of the Blair Mansion (Boston extended south, Hazel crossing the MV trail, etc)


Besides the whitewater park and improvements to the low water dam I wouldn't do anything else to the river there or Riverside Dr


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on February 21, 2012, 12:29:27 pm
Wait?  What's that?  The KFF is entertaining the idea of dropping $150 million on Riverparks development without a public tax grab?

Where's all those whiners now?  ;D

You haven't been to the Tulsa World story I see. It's brutal over there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on February 21, 2012, 01:02:12 pm
I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on February 21, 2012, 01:13:14 pm
I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.

I like what you said.

I would like to see the Children's museum there. I think it definitely needs:
Farmer's market style marketplace
Residential (preferably over retail)
Playgrounds/play areas
iconic landscaping features
strong tie to brookside making brookside/riverside a combined destination

Riverside should be a place to go to, not just a place to have things at.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: erfalf on February 21, 2012, 01:19:19 pm
I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.

AMEN!!!

Tulsa needs to at least put forth the effort in creating a more family friendly city.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: ZYX on February 21, 2012, 04:22:27 pm
I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.

Last time owns at QT Park, there were two birthday parties and many families, including mine.

Also, while I would love to see a Children's museum built in Tulsa, I would hate to see it built here.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 21, 2012, 04:27:53 pm
I'll just say it.  If we don't incorporate a world-class Children's Museum into this site and pull in families (something that's been missing in our River Parks for awhile), it will be a colossal mistake.

Tulsa is a family city...this space should not just be "kid-friendly", it should draw kids and families in like flies to honey.  We need more families back in Tulsa and we need to show our visitors that Tulsa is commited to future generations.

Cue the commercial with the little children threatening to leave Tulsa if they don't get their museum.

I kid! I kid!

I like your idea and what Grizzle did with it as well. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on February 21, 2012, 04:33:58 pm
Last time owns at QT Park, there were two birthday parties and many families, including mine.

Also, while I would love to see a Children's museum built in Tulsa, I would hate to see it built here.
ZYX, I agree that the addition of QT park was very nice and there are families down there often.  But it is basically a playground, not much more.  People aren't bringing families to Tulsa from surrounding areas (or further) just to go to a playground.  To me, the QT park is very much a local pocket park which serves a definite purpose.

I'm curious why you think that a Children's Museum would be bad for this area?  A Children's Museum would bring LOTS of daily foot traffic and would be just one component of the area so I think it would be a good "anchor" for this park.  Heck as much money as they're talking about spending, we might be able to get 2 or 3 anchors in this park.

Again, just my opinion, but if you want this to be a true gathering place (think the opposite of most other Tulsa parks), you need to have people around all the time and something to keep others moving in and out.  I thnk a family centered museum could be just the thing.  

What other ideas do you have?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: ZYX on February 21, 2012, 04:59:42 pm
ZYX, I agree that the addition of QT park was very nice and there are families down there often.  But it is basically a playground, not much more.  People aren't bringing families to Tulsa from surrounding areas (or further) just to go to a playground.  To me, the QT park is very much a local pocket park which serves a definite purpose.

I'm curious why you think that a Children's Museum would be bad for this area?  A Children's Museum would bring LOTS of daily foot traffic and would be just one component of the area so I think it would be a good "anchor" for this park.  Heck as much money as they're talking about spending, we might be able to get 2 or 3 anchors in this park.

Again, just my opinion, but if you want this to be a true gathering place (think the opposite of most other Tulsa parks), you need to have people around all the time and something to keep others moving in and out.  I thnk a family centered museum could be just the thing.  

What other ideas do you have?

The largest reason I have for not including a world-class children's museum, as much as I would love to have one built in Tulsa, is the large amount of parking it would require, in addition to the large amount of parking the park itself will most likely require. Besides, I don't see that flying well with the surrounding neighborhood.

As for more ideas about the park, I would love to see the whitewater park incorporated in it, along with something more attractive and higher quality and density in place of Crow Creek. For the area that would be designated to be strictly park land, I would like to see a truly world-class, highly interactive park. I would love to see dancing fountains, large trees strategically placed, several innovative and modern sculptures. Basically, like you have said, something that has never been done before in Tulsa. I would prefer the children's museum to go on the west bank (I know how much you love that idea ;) ) where I would like to see another park, with more development behind it and some fronting the river.

I think there is a huge opportunity to create something truly stunning. Mr. Kaiser and his affiliates have gifted us many wonderful things before. I sure do not think this will disappoint.

P.S., I have an a session with parks. If there was one thing that I want Tulsa to be nationally known for, it would be for its beautiful and numerous parks. I hope that some day in the future this can happen.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on February 21, 2012, 05:10:40 pm
Well I see that you have a good memory of my posts regarding west bank development. :)   I will politely disagree with your notion of placing anything "destination" worthy on the west bank.  While I don't disagree with your point on parking, I would much rather see a Children's Museum placed in the Brady District before I'd want to see it on the west bank of the river there.

And all due respect ZYX, but how do you expect fountains (even interactive ones) and sculptures to bring thousands of people to this park every day?  We need to showcase this park by having a community-spirited anchor on this site.  I don't know how the parking gets pulled off, but I'm not here to architect it, I'm just trying to figure out a way to truly re-magnetize this portion of Tulsa, not only to its residents but also to visitors.






Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: ZYX on February 21, 2012, 07:08:27 pm
Well I see that you have a good memory of my posts regarding west bank development. :)   I will politely disagree with your notion of placing anything "destination" worthy on the west bank.  While I don't disagree with your point on parking, I would much rather see a Children's Museum placed in the Brady District before I'd want to see it on the west bank of the river there.

And all due respect ZYX, but how do you expect fountains (even interactive ones) and sculptures to bring thousands of people to this park every day?  We need to showcase this park by having a community-spirited anchor on this site.  I don't know how the parking gets pulled off, but I'm not here to architect it, I'm just trying to figure out a way to truly re-magnetize this portion of Tulsa, not only to its residents but also to visitors.






I question whether there is enough room here to make it a magnet area. Maybe there is. Maybe something like a children's museum would do the trick, although I believe the parking would have to be underground.

You and I have argued this issue before, and I don't think we will ever agree on it. :D Perhaps we need to agree to disagree. I guess "hate" in one of my previous posts was a strong word. I wouldn't hate for the children's museum to be located here, I just don't believe that it is the best spot. I just don't think something like it would blend well with the surrounding neighborhood.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on February 21, 2012, 08:37:05 pm
  One idea for parking might be something like that one plan where Riverside Drive was curved up around the Blair property.  But instead of that being Riverside Drive, keep Riverside or change it a bit, but the side/back road that took you around the Blair Property and even towards Crow Creek, have parallel parking aaaall along it.  That would preclude you having to have one or several large gaping hole type parking lots, but would give you a long narrow one something like Woodward park without a significant gap in greenery and even the tree canopy can reach out and over it keeping it feeling more cozy and park like.

Childrens museum... my first preference would be to have it downtown like in the Brady District, but,,, if it were in this area by the River you could expand the museum right out into the park and down to the river itself to include all kinds of "nature/environmental/conservation" learning features.  I have seen some really neat ideas done that way.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on February 22, 2012, 08:35:19 am
Well I see that you have a good memory of my posts regarding west bank development. :)   I will politely disagree with your notion of placing anything "destination" worthy on the west bank.  While I don't disagree with your point on parking, I would much rather see a Children's Museum placed in the Brady District before I'd want to see it on the west bank of the river there.

And all due respect ZYX, but how do you expect fountains (even interactive ones) and sculptures to bring thousands of people to this park every day?  We need to showcase this park by having a community-spirited anchor on this site.  I don't know how the parking gets pulled off, but I'm not here to architect it, I'm just trying to figure out a way to truly re-magnetize this portion of Tulsa, not only to its residents but also to visitors.




Why not a destination on the west bank? The infrastructure to support it is already there, close access to US75, I44/244 on Southwest Boulevard, train tracks for transit and it's under developed? Both the city yard and the cement factory need to put to better use and development could be a catalyst for improvements on 21st and on Southwest Blvd/Route 66.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 22, 2012, 08:47:03 am
Someone needs to remind the owner of the concrete plant it's not worth $50 mil.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on February 22, 2012, 09:41:05 am
Someone needs to remind the owner of the concrete plant it's not worth $50 mil.

true


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on February 22, 2012, 10:25:25 am

Why not a destination on the west bank? The infrastructure to support it is already there, close access to US75, I44/244 on Southwest Boulevard, train tracks for transit and it's under developed? Both the city yard and the cement factory need to put to better use and development could be a catalyst for improvements on 21st and on Southwest Blvd/Route 66.

I'd buy in to this if we threw enough money at it and did more than just "one thing" over there.  Tulsa has already messed up a little bit by not developing (or encouraging more development) in a single focused area.  The Brady District, Blue Dome, Greenwood, BOK Center, Sobo, Cherry Street, Brookside, Utica Square...these aren't "districts", they're small and mostly over before they ever begin.  Where's the destination?

Sorry highway access is a tough sell for me...rail....that's visionary for sure, and I'd buy into that if someone would create something more than another park over there.  It would need to be something BIG...VERY BIG.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on February 22, 2012, 10:44:28 am
I'd like to see the east bank of the river remain a "locals" spot.  By that I mean, not developed as a tourist attraction that requires lots of parking, but rather a place that people walk, bike or use mass transit to get to.

I think the west bank (23rd north) and the west bank in the Jenks area should be the tourist spots.

Look at how much parking the Oklahoma Aquarium has, that would take up nearly the entire lawn of the Blair Mansion!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on February 22, 2012, 12:59:23 pm
I but rather a place that people walk, bike or use mass transit to get to.

Kind of like the Trolley parks in the late 19th and early 20th centuries?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 22, 2012, 01:04:53 pm
I'd buy in to this if we threw enough money at it and did more than just "one thing" over there.  Tulsa has already messed up a little bit by not developing (or encouraging more development) in a single focused area.  The Brady District, Blue Dome, Greenwood, BOK Center, Sobo, Cherry Street, Brookside, Utica Square...these aren't "districts", they're small and mostly over before they ever begin.  Where's the destination?

Sorry highway access is a tough sell for me...rail....that's visionary for sure, and I'd buy into that if someone would create something more than another park over there.  It would need to be something BIG...VERY BIG.

Not sure where you are going with that and maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but you really can't focus all entertainment into one area in a city the size of Tulsa.  Not with our car-driving culture.

Districts generally aren't usually more than a few blocks long or wide in any city.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Jonette2 on February 22, 2012, 08:18:13 pm
I don't know how to quote this properly, but it was posted earlier in this topic.

It would seem this would have to be a very long ranged endeavor.
If I remember correctly... one of the terms of the "sale" of the Blair property was that the current owner/resident, could maintain residence and use of the property for the remainder of his life.



WOW, I WISH SOMEONE WOULD PAY ME FOR MY HOUSE AND "LET" ME LIVE IN IT FREE AND INDEFINATELY !!!




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on February 22, 2012, 08:20:52 pm
WOW, I WISH SOMEONE WOULD PAY ME FOR MY HOUSE AND "LET" ME LIVE IN IT FREE AND INDEFINATELY !!!

A reverse mortgage is probably as close as most of us will get.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on February 22, 2012, 08:25:05 pm
I don't know how to quote this properly, but it was posted earlier in this topic.

It would seem this would have to be a very long ranged endeavor.
If I remember correctly... one of the terms of the "sale" of the Blair property was that the current owner/resident, could maintain residence and use of the property for the remainder of his life.



WOW, I WISH SOMEONE WOULD PAY ME FOR MY HOUSE AND "LET" ME LIVE IN IT FREE AND INDEFINATELY !!!




Not for the remainder of his life, but for awhile.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on February 22, 2012, 09:27:26 pm
  I thought I read somewhere that they were moving the house.  And my impression is that this project will start within about 2 years.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 22, 2012, 10:03:27 pm
Not for the remainder of his life, but for awhile.

If I were him I wouldn't be drinking the well water these days.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Teatownclown on February 23, 2012, 09:14:18 am
  I thought I read somewhere that they were moving the house.  And my impression is that this project will start within about 2 years.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18720.msg229367#msg229367
Quote
Stava was on tonight's news (many here are indulging for Fat Tuesday) and said that the home owner (Bruford?) was going to be moving the mansion off the Blair property to one of his properties.

Also, neighbor's along the border of the Blair property received a notification/mailing over the weekend. The first step in rezoning is to survey the adjacent owners to find out the level of resistance.

I'd guess this project is 5-20 years off into the future.

here?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on February 23, 2012, 10:38:55 am
On NPR they said that construction was planned to start in 2014. Two years from now to allow for planning (and zoning).


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LandArchPoke on March 06, 2012, 02:24:38 am
I thought this was an interesting read:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20120304_11_A15_CUTLIN901630

Not sure if i'm allowed to copy paste article on here or not so I didn't.

http://vimeo.com/35333724
^ This is a video of an interview with the Landscape Architect picked to design our new "Central Park"

Michael Van Valkenburgh
http://www.mvvainc.com/



Tentative Timeline

May: Creative concepts are revealed and more input is received to refine the project

September: Full project plan unveiled

October 2012 to October 2013: Work on design, technical issues and construction documents

November 2013 to January 2014: Bidding process for construction

Early 2014: Break ground

Construction: Between two and four years.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on March 06, 2012, 10:35:43 pm
Curious if anyone went to the first open forum tonight?? What was the turnout like and what was the general reaction?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 07, 2012, 06:37:25 am
I went. There were about 120 people when I was there. They had lots of maps and pretty pictures with explanantions of the assets, challenges, etc. There were people with clipboards writing down your comments as well as flipboards for you to write down your own. I thought it was well done.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on March 08, 2012, 11:00:11 am
Went last night.

What a great thing from GKFF.  They plan on fully funding the project and stated last night they are thinking in the $100 to 150 million range.

There must've been a larger turnout last night than the first.  The room was pretty packed.

I saw some great ideas written down.

I really look forward to what comes of this.



Modified to remind anyone to go to www.agatheringplacefortulsa.com (http://www.agatheringplacefortulsa.com) to give their ideas.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on March 08, 2012, 11:21:38 am
I was there as well. They explained repeatedly that they own the blair property but not the house, they have no control over the house, and the person who does own the house is moving it. Yet, for several, their only feedback was "leave the house alone"

Was interested in the comment that they were not interested in plans to radically change riverside, although I get the impression that it will change some. I also think the berm between the blair property and the 31st street parking lot is on the outs.

I also got the distinct impression that while the project maps only show the GKFF owned land, the actual project will include some changes to riverparks. Creating direct river access and shallower riverbanks came up more than once on the posters.

It was also mentioned that all parking lot access will be from riverside, with no changes to neighborhood streets (although 31st was not mentioned)

They didn't mention Tulsa Children's Museum by name but did give a vague description of something like that.

Coffee/dining was also mentioned specifically.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on March 08, 2012, 12:44:30 pm
  I wasn't able to make either meeting but sent them my one idea online.



 

One general thought... A high point with steps all around where people can view the park, and the people and activities within it.

 I would love for Tulsa to have a spot with some of the essence of say the "Spanish Steps" in Rome, the steps on the hillside of the Sacre-Coeur in Paris, the grand steps leading down to the pond in NYC's central park, the steps in front of the Central Library in NYC. People like to sit on steps and have a view, not just a view of scenery, but also of people. Often in classical parks there is a high point that contains a "folly", think the Castle in NYC's Central Park or, or it may have a gazebo, a monument or sculpture. When your sitting on steps leading up to something like that where there is a great view, even when there are lots of people around, it can somehow have a romantic, intimate feel to it.

These spots also act as easily identifiable gathering and meeting places "everyone meet at the...".

  Imagine, just for an example for I am not concerned with the particulars, more the general concept and feel,,, a high point with steps on all four sides, on top of the high point a sculpture, structure or viewing platform of some sort. Whatever side you wish to sit on offers different viewing possibilities. Perhaps to one side there is a playground with children playing, on another side you can see the river, on another people walking through garden trails amongst the trees, on another possibly a water feature. 

  And, often these new parks with their patterns of curving trails, gardens, etc. look quite nice from a birds eye view. Why not let some of that be seen?

  Again, a high point, with steps all around where people can view the park, other people and activities.  Acts as an easily identifiable meeting point, adds another "interesting thing to see and do" in the park, adds to the parks variations of height and depth. But, don't mistake what I am trying to get across as the usual, "steps leading down to the river" thing. That is indeed nice mind you, but it's not the same.

  Steps like I have described have the wonderful ability to somehow be a romantic place in which you can BOTH, step away from it all, yet still be in the middle of it all.       

  Thank you for the opportunity to share my idea.

William The Artist


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Okie2 on March 26, 2012, 09:35:49 pm
While browsing the web I came across a photo of the Bok tower in Florida. I thought a tower along these lines could be an iconic focal point for the Gathering Place. I believe it could be built in an Art Deco style with stylized floral and ivy designs and zigzag motifs that echo Tulsa’s Art Deco heritage. Plus with stairs people could climb to the top and would provide great views of the river and downtown. So long as it’s not built too close to the residential areas I think it would be well accepted by people and would become a popular photographed landmark for Tulsa.

(http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss156/puzzled11/Bok_Tower.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on March 27, 2012, 09:01:52 am
  While I love art deco, I don't think creating something of an older style is in the cards.  Architects and designers appreciate the older styles, but are absolutely loath to recreate it unless pushed to do so.  They want to create something new reflecting their own style.  Having said that, all architecture, especially modern of any stripe, can be imparted with an art deco "soul" or ethos if you will, so something new and of that nature would perhaps be the best hoped for outcome. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on May 10, 2012, 12:11:47 pm
 While I love art deco, I don't think creating something of an older style is in the cards.  Architects and designers appreciate the older styles, but are absolutely loath to recreate it unless pushed to do so.  They want to create something new reflecting their own style.  Having said that, all architecture, especially modern of any stripe, can be imparted with an art deco "soul" or ethos if you will, so something new and of that nature would perhaps be the best hoped for outcome.  
Building an modern building to look "old" or as if it was from the "art deco" era makes it look phoney IMO -just as remodling an old building from the 1930's to try and make it look like a new 1930's building, (only updated) - much of the origonal feeling is lost, replacing old classic light fixtures with new light fixtures built to look like the old one is not the same thing. BTW the old 1980 movie "Xanadu" was  filmed on location of an old building from the art deco era called the "Pacific building" (or some such name)  I think that structure really had a great classic art deco  look to it,  and they latter knocked that building down. So much for historic preserving of old structures...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 10, 2012, 12:29:20 pm
Phase 2 update:

Public meetings at 6pm May 23rd and 24th at the TCC Creativity Center.  Updated plans that include landscape components of the over 1,000 individual comments received back in February.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on May 10, 2012, 01:32:38 pm
Building an modern building to look "old" or as if it was from the "art deco" era makes it look phoney IMO -just as remodling an old building from the 1930's to try and make it look like a new 1930's building, (only updated) - much of the origonal feeling is lost, replacing old classic light fixtures with new light fixtures built to look like the old one is not the same thing. BTW the old 1980 movie "Xanadu" was  filmed on location of an old building from the art deco era called the "Pacific building" (or some such name)  I think that structure really had a great classic art deco  look to it,  and they latter knocked that building down. So much for historic preserving of old structures...


A shockingly coherent, reasoned and salient post by Saur, and then he takes the sharp left turn at Xanadu.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTf__Z_vaHDT1jlaIEqZZ-V8Ur25pbkRusH9UIEX4ZCTq0N-Zmq9Q)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 10, 2012, 01:42:54 pm

A shockingly coherent, reasoned and salient post by Saur, and then he takes the sharp left turn at Xanadu.


I would've gone straight into Xanadu.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 10, 2012, 01:52:48 pm
I would've gone straight into Xanadu.

I actually did go to Xanadu:
http://systems-unlimited.org/Xanadu.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: nathanm on May 10, 2012, 11:31:20 pm
The only concern I have about this plan is that right now that spot, while not a whole lot to look at, is one of the few places in Tulsa where it seems like trail users get first priority. Granted, it's only that way because they inherited it from the railroad, but that's how it feels. Connecting the Blair property to what is now the parking lot to the South will almost inevitably erode that primacy, and probably involve making the connection between the MV trail and Riverparks even worse for folks who are not planning to linger.

Yes, I realize that it's a small thing, but it's an important thing, being one of the few places in town where a road actually gets squeezed to accommodate other forms of transportation and other activities.

It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on May 11, 2012, 07:07:13 am

A shockingly coherent, reasoned and salient post by Saur, and then he takes the sharp left turn at Xanadu.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTf__Z_vaHDT1jlaIEqZZ-V8Ur25pbkRusH9UIEX4ZCTq0N-Zmq9Q)


So that's how you get to Xanadu.

As counterpoint to his argument: I think the mid continent tower is a good example that a newer building can successfully look old.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dsjeffries on May 22, 2012, 04:06:05 pm
Two more public input meetings are scheduled for this week.

Date: 5/23 & 5/24 (tomorrow and Thursday)
Time: 6 p.m.
Location: TCC Center for Creativity, 10th & Boston

Renderings of proposed Rocky Riverbed Splash area:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/306098_668334520365_26401559_32866456_1314243137_n.jpg) (http://media2.kjrh.com//photo/2012/05/16/A_Gathering_Place_--_Venue_Concept_20120516114124_320_240.JPG)

KJRH Story (http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/kaiser-foundation-moves-to-next-phase-of-planning-for-riverside-gathering-place#ixzz1vdfAdW9z)
Quote
The George Kaiser Family Foundation is entering the next phase of planning for a new gathering space near Riverside.
The foundation has plans to break ground on a new park, which will sit on the Blair property between 26th and 29th and Riverside Drive as well as the Sundance and Legacy apartment properties south of 31st and Riverside in early 2014.
All of the properties are presently owned by the foundation.
The foundation is asking for public input on the project. Public meetings took place in March. A second round of meetings are scheduled for May 23 and 24 at the TCC Center for Creativity at 918 South Boston Ave.  Both meetings will begin at 6 p.m.
"This next round of meetings is a continuation of the public input process,” said Jeff Stava, project manager for A Gathering Place for Tulsa. “We received tremendous feedback during the first round of meetings and hope to have more of the same as we reveal some initial ideas.”
Final public meetings are anticipated for the fall.
Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates ( MVVA), a landscape architecture firm based in Brooklyn, NY, has been chosen to design the new gathering place. MVVA previously designed the Hudson River Park in New York and Mill Race Park in Columbus, Ind.
Early design concepts reflecting previously gathered public input will be unveiled at the meetings.
“From the input and ideas we received from the community through emails, website comments and the public meetings, we were able to create an early concept that we feel reflects the desires of Tulsa residents,” said Van Valkenburg, MVVA principal. “We’re excited to present these early ideas to the community and are eager to hear their thoughts.”
The images above shows the early concept for a venue, which would allow people to gather and have low-key events, and a green space area, which shows much of the existing green space would be retained and blended with other landscape elements, plus access to the river.
“The preliminary renderings we show at the meetings are not final,” said Stava. “We’re going to listen to what the community thinks of these early concepts and use that input to continue crafting what ultimately will be the final design.”
The thus far unnamed project is expected to cost between $100 to $150 million. Final site plans are expected to be complete in the fall.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dsjeffries on May 23, 2012, 04:22:41 pm
Anyone else going tonight?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 24, 2012, 09:11:22 am
Anyone else going tonight?

Couldn't make it last night.  I plan on going tonight.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 24, 2012, 09:15:51 am
Some people here owe me an apology ;)  It would appear Mr. Kaiser didn’t take his ball and go home after all.

I think we will get better development than we would have with the River Tax.  That was a Randi Miller pile with sleaze on top.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 24, 2012, 09:20:15 am
That was a Randi Miller pile with sleaze on top.

The picture of her standing in the river was one of my proudest moments for Tulsa.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on May 24, 2012, 09:48:03 am
I loved the one Mayor LaFortune had on his wall. Standing in the river with his suit pants rolled up and Gucci's in hand.

I think they both were supporters, just not good at making it happen. Like my old friend at the newspaper used to say, "Steve, that's a good idea if it works...."


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 24, 2012, 11:56:41 am
I loved the one Mayor LaFortune had on his wall. Standing in the river with his suit pants rolled up and Gucci's in hand.

I think they both were supporters, just not good at making it happen. Like my old friend at the newspaper used to say, "Steve, that's a good idea if it works...."

Taylor was mayor at the time.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on May 24, 2012, 12:00:52 pm
Taylor was mayor at the time.

Yes, which is a little irritating as it reminds me that while Taylor appeared to have taken most of the credit for Vision2025, it was Mayor LaFortune that did all the leg work on that front.

I can remember being at the BOK Center grand opening when she gave Mayor LaFortune a t-shirt thanking him for all his hard work.  Of course I had to tell my mom who was with me 'all that and all I got was this stinking t-shirt?'.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 24, 2012, 12:03:05 pm
Yes, which is a little irritating as it reminds me that while Taylor appeared to have taken most of the credit for Vision2025, it was Mayor LaFortune that did all the leg work on that front.

I can remember being at the BOK Center grand opening when she gave Mayor LaFortune a t-shirt thanking him for all his hard work.  Of course I had to tell my mom who was with me 'all that and all I got was this stinking t-shirt?'.

I never sensed that she was stealing anyone else’s due, she simply happened to be mayor at the time many of the projects were finishing up doing her figurehead work.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on May 24, 2012, 12:05:48 pm
I never sensed that she was stealing anyone else’s due, she simply happened to be mayor at the time many of the projects were finishing up doing her figurehead work.

She may not have been, but I think LaFortune didn't get lauded nearly enough for his role in it.  He helped get the vote on the ballot, stumped for it (which was politically brave as a Republican, even for local politics) and it ultimately won.  To me, it felt a little like a slap in the face.  I didn't care much for Taylor at the outset due to the residency thing.  She grew on me, but I didn't dislike LaFortune.  I thought he was a good mayor.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 24, 2012, 12:08:24 pm
She may not have been, but I think LaFortune didn't get lauded nearly enough for his role in it.  He helped get the vote on the ballot, stumped for it (which was politically brave as a Republican, even for local politics) and it ultimately won.  To me, it felt a little like a slap in the face.  I didn't care much for Taylor at the outset due to the residency thing.  She grew on me, but I didn't dislike LaFortune.  I thought he was a good mayor.

Funny how that goes, I ended up thinking LaFortune was a real doof in the end.  Taylor rubbed me wrong at the beginning with her “make it happen or else” style and the One Tech purchase.  As I got to know her and work on a couple of projects with her, she really impressed me. 

Taking a long look back, Tulsa would look much different today (more like post-modern Beirut) than it does now if not for the efforts of LaFortune and Taylor.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on May 24, 2012, 12:11:05 pm
Funny how that goes, I ended up thinking LaFortune was a real doof in the end.  Taylor rubbed me wrong at the beginning with her “make it happen or else” style and the One Tech purchase.  As I got to know her and work on a couple of projects with her, she really impressed me. 

Taking a long look back, Tulsa would look much different today (more like post-modern Beirut) than it does now if not for the efforts of LaFortune and Taylor.

I think anybody will look good compared to the current resident of that office.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on May 24, 2012, 12:14:46 pm
Funny how that goes, I ended up thinking LaFortune was a real doof in the end.  Taylor rubbed me wrong at the beginning with her “make it happen or else” style and the One Tech purchase.  As I got to know her and work on a couple of projects with her, she really impressed me. 

Taking a long look back, Tulsa would look much different today (more like post-modern Beirut) than it does now if not for the efforts of LaFortune and Taylor.

I wonder what Dewey's big contribution will be? Lafortune has V2025 and the Peli BOK. Taylor has the Borg cube move and the ONEOK park.

I would like to see Mayor Bartlett push for a parking solution for the PAC/City Hall/Blue Dome to free up surface area for development. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on May 24, 2012, 12:21:19 pm
I wonder what Dewey's big contribution will be? Lafortune has V2025 and the Peli BOK. Taylor has the Borg cube move and the ONEOK park.

I would like to see Mayor Bartlett push for a parking solution for the PAC/City Hall/Blue Dome to free up surface area for development. 

He'll probably patent a design for a fire-retardant cellphone.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 24, 2012, 01:01:39 pm
He'll probably patent a design for a fire-retardant cellphone.

Or get caught sparking up a big doobie in the council chamber.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on May 24, 2012, 01:02:58 pm
Or get caught sparking up a big doobie in the council chamber.

Could just see that now...

"PT, want a hit?"

"Naw"

"Come on!  It's good smile"

"OK"

"PT, don't bogart it!"


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 24, 2012, 09:33:18 pm
The new plan calls for keeping the same riverside alignment but regrading it. It will be higher in the crow creek area but slightly lower to the north. There will be a new vehicle bridge over crow creek with pedestrian and bike paths underneath consistent with the new grading alongside crow creek. Their will be land bridges over the roadway connecting the former riverparks and blair properties. About 600 parking spaces will be added as well as rapids, two children's parks, retail, residential, a splash pad, restrooms, a year-round park building called "the lodge," paddleboat/kayaking in the new pond, a small beach, a bike path built on top of the existing pedestrian bridge, a redone shoreline with trails at water level and connecting existing land masses to allow for fishing and walking, etc, etc.

Pictures of the 3D model
http://cl.ly/1N1k0X253y3C1I1D1H2j
http://cl.ly/3Q473f2m1Z270e2i0l2b
http://cl.ly/1c0t1y131T0Q3G3V3c3B

Closeup of Blair Pond area
http://cl.ly/1W323L2g2W2N3m0p3y0s

Top-down view of plan:
http://cl.ly/0W101h422C0h3m3j2t0u (top half)
http://cl.ly/1r19441L3g042q36131k (bottom half)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on May 25, 2012, 05:54:26 am
Looks very neat.  Lots of variety.  Looks like it's going to require a lot of maintenance and upkeep almost like they would need staff just for that area.  Any word on that aspect?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Gaspar on May 25, 2012, 06:55:21 am
That's one of the best planning models I've ever seen, and the plan is sensible and exciting! 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 25, 2012, 07:54:52 am
I hope the things that are "hoped for" happen.  It's very cool if they can make it all work.

Some of it is relying on the dam projects and working with the city on the Crow Creek bridge and dam.

In any case, it's very exciting.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Oil Capital on May 25, 2012, 08:14:16 am
I wonder what Dewey's big contribution will be.  Taylor has the Borg cube move . . . 


And the ongoing financial hole that came with it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on May 25, 2012, 08:18:20 am
Taylor was mayor at the time.

Maybe when that tax issue failed but in 2005 when I waited in the foyer of the mayor's office to talk to the chief of staff, that pic was hanging on the wall.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Oil Capital on May 25, 2012, 08:22:42 am
I wonder what Dewey's big contribution will be.  Taylor has . . . the ONEOK park.


. . . Along with the continuing mystery of why we paid $60 million for a $30 million ballpark; and of course the buildings being torn down to avoid the resulting tax increase.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 25, 2012, 08:23:54 am
. . . Along with the continuing mystery of why we paid $60 million for a $30 million ballpark; and of course the buildings being torn down to avoid the resulting tax increase.

There's a thread for that conversation.  Go find it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on May 25, 2012, 08:26:15 am
I really like the plan and it appears that some of the ideas we have discussed on this forum, like the path on top of the pedestrian bridge, made it into the final. I'll probably be too old to enjoy it by the time its finished but I'll get momma' to roll me over there!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 25, 2012, 08:30:56 am
I really like the plan and it appears that some of the ideas we have discussed on this forum, like the path on top of the pedestrian bridge, made it into the final. I'll probably be too old to enjoy it by the time its finished but I'll get momma' to roll me over there!

If most goes as planned, we shouldn't have to wait too long.  If enough "Oil Capitals" complain about it, they may get politics involved.  That's the only way I can see this going through a tough time.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 25, 2012, 09:07:16 am
I really like the plan and it appears that some of the ideas we have discussed on this forum, like the path on top of the pedestrian bridge, made it into the final. I'll probably be too old to enjoy it by the time its finished but I'll get momma' to roll me over there!

I think they said it would be done in 3-5 years.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 25, 2012, 09:09:08 am
Looks very neat.  Lots of variety.  Looks like it's going to require a lot of maintenance and upkeep almost like they would need staff just for that area.  Any word on that aspect?

There is actually an underground maintenance building and a road along the backside of the park for maintenance/emergency personnel only. Possibly they are planning their own separate maintenance organization funded by an endowment.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on May 25, 2012, 09:19:35 am
. . . Along with the continuing mystery of why we paid $60 million for a $30 million ballpark; and of course the buildings being torn down to avoid the resulting tax increase.

Unless you are a downtown property owner you haven't paid a dime for a ballpark in direct tax.  Maybe in higher rent rates or higher costs of goods as a result of higher rents from the raised assessment.  OR, unless you were part of the private group that donated $25MM in private funds you haven't paid a dime.  OR, unless you consider buying a ticket, a hot dog, cracker jacks, beer to be a contribution towards the  Drillers' $5MM long term lease you haven't paid a dime.  OR, unless you consider $30MM of the aforementioned $60MM that remains unspent but sits in accounts earmarked for future development to be an expenditure you haven't paid double for a ball park.

So, tell me again how YOU paid $60MM for a $30MM ballpark?

But, back on topic.  It looks like a great plan.  I'm really glad Kaiser didn't take his ball and go home after the tax payers turned down the tax initiative in 2007.  Quite amazingly he chose to still drop $100MM+ on projects adjacent to the river.  Which BTW, has to be one of the single largest donations to a public project in our nation's history.  I hope they have a spot where I can kick back and enjoy a Marshall's...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Sutton on May 25, 2012, 09:35:44 am
SIAP but their website has been updated with presentations and photos
http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/get-the-visuals/ (http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/get-the-visuals/)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TakingCare on June 08, 2012, 03:33:01 am
I am so excited to see this happen. What an amazing gift from GKFF.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on June 08, 2012, 06:39:11 am
Unless you are a downtown property owner you haven't paid a dime for a ballpark in direct tax.  Maybe in higher rent rates or higher costs of goods as a result of higher rents from the raised assessment.  OR, unless you were part of the private group that donated $25MM in private funds you haven't paid a dime.  OR, unless you consider buying a ticket, a hot dog, cracker jacks, beer to be a contribution towards the  Drillers' $5MM long term lease you haven't paid a dime.  OR, unless you consider $30MM of the aforementioned $60MM that remains unspent but sits in accounts earmarked for future development to be an expenditure you haven't paid double for a ball park.

So, tell me again how YOU paid $60MM for a $30MM ballpark?

But, back on topic.  It looks like a great plan.  I'm really glad Kaiser didn't take his ball and go home after the tax payers turned down the tax initiative in 2007.  Quite amazingly he chose to still drop $100MM+ on projects adjacent to the river.  Which BTW, has to be one of the single largest donations to a public project in our nation's history.  I hope they have a spot where I can kick back and enjoy a Marshall's...

We often just read over these numbers without really thinking about them.  But when you stop for a moment and realize this is a private citizen (or his foundation) donating ONE HUNDRED MILLION dollars for a park... that's definitely a WOW!  We are used to hearing those sorts of numbers for things done by the Federal and State governments, but for an individual, WOW!  I wonder how much he has spent on River Parks all together? 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on June 14, 2012, 10:53:53 am
I attended a United Way event last night at the new Henry Zarrow Center for Art and Education (which is really nice).  Jeff Stava, of the Tulsa Community Foundation, gave a short presentation on this project.  Most of it is what has been discussed and posted above.  What was most interesting, however, was the reaction of many in the room who were either completely unaware of this project or had no idea of the magnitude of what is planned.  I think Tulsans are going to be blown away by this project as they come to realize its size and scope.  This is truly a transformative project for Tulsa's river and, perhaps, Tulsa itself.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on June 14, 2012, 11:04:45 am
I sort of like the idea that its low key. It won't remain that way long as the visible changes occur. Then a big splash! I find it interesting that many are sure it will increase the value of the surrounding neighborhoods to have this attraction nearby. Maybe, maybe not. If I had invested a bunch of money tearing down and rebuilding a home just east of the area and south of the path, I might be skeptical.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on June 14, 2012, 01:11:56 pm
I sort of like the idea that its low key. It won't remain that way long as the visible changes occur. Then a big splash! I find it interesting that many are sure it will increase the value of the surrounding neighborhoods to have this attraction nearby. Maybe, maybe not. If I had invested a bunch of money tearing down and rebuilding a home just east of the area and south of the path, I might be skeptical.

While an imperfect analogy, Central Park does not seem to hurt adjacent property values.  Perhaps more useful, current River Parks seem to be a net plus for property values.  Stava said in his presentation that earth berms, trees and other landscaping will be used to shield neighboring houses.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Jeff P on July 13, 2012, 01:15:27 pm
I attended a United Way event last night at the new Henry Zarrow Center for Art and Education (which is really nice).  Jeff Stava, of the Tulsa Community Foundation, gave a short presentation on this project.  Most of it is what has been discussed and posted above.  What was most interesting, however, was the reaction of many in the room who were either completely unaware of this project or had no idea of the magnitude of what is planned.  I think Tulsans are going to be blown away by this project as they come to realize its size and scope.  This is truly a transformative project for Tulsa's river and, perhaps, Tulsa itself.

Well said.  Agree.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on November 06, 2012, 02:15:43 pm
Kaiser Foundation makes progress on Gathering Place park plans

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20121106_16_A1_CUTLIN162092 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20121106_16_A1_CUTLIN162092)

(http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2012/A4gatheringmap1106.jpg)

Quote
A lot of work is being done to construct the Gathering Place for Tulsa - the $100 million to $150 million park planned for the east side of Riverside Drive. It's just not work most people will ever know occurred.

"We have spent the last 4 1/2 months working on all sorts of details," said Jeff Stava, project manager for the park, which is being funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation.

The foundation plans to present its latest design for the park to the public the first week of December, with construction to begin sometime in the first half of 2014.

The foundation held several public meetings this year to gather input on the project and has spent the time since taking those comments into account as it finalizes plans for the park.

"We received just under 1,600 public comments between all of the meetings we had," Stava said. "And, believe it or not, there were a lot of comments that have a lot of good design potential.

"We have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to modify our plans to take advantage of those comments."

The modifications include maintaining and increasing open space in the park wherever possible and improving the park's connection to River Parks across Riverside Drive.

"We have gone back and literally relooked at every aspect of the project to keep as much openness as possible," Stava said. "People want the ability to get down to the water's edge, and they want to see the native habitat down on the riverbed, so we refashioned the plan on how it allows accessibility to those areas."

To construct the park, the foundation plans to transform land it owns east of Riverside Drive, including a small tract of city property, into a unique gathering place that ties into River Parks.

The foundation owns the 33.6 acres of the Blair Mansion property at 26th Place and the 21.5-acre tract that includes the Crow Creek Apartments, also known as the Sundance and Legacy apartments, south of 31st Street. The two tracts are connected by a 4.2-acre plot owned by the city.

The Blair Mansion itself will be moved and is not part of the plan.

As currently designed, the park and River Parks would be connected by two land bridges for pedestrians over Riverside Drive north of the Zink Dam and one pedestrian walkway under Riverside Drive south of the dam at Crow Creek.

Conceptual plans for the park include wooded areas, cascading lawns, meandering trails, a lodge building, gardens, a large playground, a splash park, wetlands, cafes and a large pond.

In addition to working on modifications to the park proposal, foundation officials have spent the past few months meeting with utility providers and public entities to ensure that the park's infrastructure needs - including electric power, water lines and roadways - are addressed.

"We have worked really hard over the last 4 1/2 months to understand the logistics of all those public and private utilities," Stava said. "Logistically, that has taken a lot of time."

The foundation also has been involved in discussions on proposed modifications to Zink Dam at 30th Street and Riverside Drive.

The final design of the dam project will be dictated by funding, much of which is uncertain. The Oklahoma Supreme Court has scheduled oral arguments concerning the constitutionality of a planned $25 million state bond issue to fund improvements to the dam for Nov. 8.

The city of Tulsa has pledged to allocate $41 million of its Vision2 funding for the Zink Dam project should the sale-tax initiative be approved by voters Tuesday.

Stava said the Gathering Place for Tulsa will be constructed regardless of how the Vision2 vote turns out.

"We are just trying to make sure the connection works and their project fits together and that the land bridges and landscape features fit together along the Arkansas River," Stava said.

If Vision2 does not pass, he added, the connection to River Parks "might have to be reworked a little bit to make that drop into the park, (but) the core essence of the park will not be affected by whether the dam is modified or not."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20121106_16_A1_CUTLIN162092


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on November 06, 2012, 02:18:01 pm
Looks like Riverside Dr will not be moved to the East.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: YoungTulsan on November 06, 2012, 02:32:59 pm
Looks like Riverside Dr will not be moved to the East.

The above picture I believe only illustrates which pieces of land are involved and who owns them.  The actual design looks to be revealed in a month or so.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on November 07, 2012, 07:29:22 am
Looks like Riverside Dr will not be moved to the East.

The architect was picked partially because they didn't want to re-align riverside.

That being said, it will be largely rebuilt, higher in some area, lower in others, and partially covered.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on November 07, 2012, 09:17:56 am
I figured they would cap part of it instead


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on November 07, 2012, 09:38:38 am
See previous images I posted

Pictures of the 3D model
http://cl.ly/1N1k0X253y3C1I1D1H2j
http://cl.ly/3Q473f2m1Z270e2i0l2b
http://cl.ly/1c0t1y131T0Q3G3V3c3B

Closeup of Blair Pond area
http://cl.ly/1W323L2g2W2N3m0p3y0s

Top-down view of plan:
http://cl.ly/0W101h422C0h3m3j2t0u (top half)
http://cl.ly/1r19441L3g042q36131k (bottom half)



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on November 07, 2012, 06:08:39 pm
See previous images I posted


Not really sure if I like all those white, modern, "sugar cube" looking houses in the area. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: saintnicster on November 08, 2012, 07:57:43 am
Not really sure if I like all those white, modern, "sugar cube" looking houses in the area. 
Err, are you serious with that statement?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on November 08, 2012, 08:39:08 am
Err, are you serious with that statement?

Lol, no.  But the sad thing about it is, we are all so used to hearing comments that are so inane, and serious, that you really can't be blamed for wondering if what I said was "for real" or not lol.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on November 08, 2012, 08:44:04 am
I thought it was a good joke.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on November 08, 2012, 10:42:58 am
Lol, no.  But the sad thing about it is, we are all so used to hearing comments that are so inane, and serious, that you really can't be blamed for wondering if what I said was "for real" or not lol.

Sounds pretty close to this:

Poe's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) states:

    "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing."


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: saintnicster on November 08, 2012, 10:50:32 am
Lol, no.  But the sad thing about it is, we are all so used to hearing comments that are so inane, and serious, that you really can't be blamed for wondering if what I said was "for real" or not lol.
Sorry about that -.-;;; I guess it was just too early for me to properly parsing things online.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on November 11, 2012, 02:17:53 pm
Too lazy to go back through previous posts.... but the architecture firm that's been chosen has a page for the project
http://www.mvvainc.com/project.php?id=96&c=parks


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on November 20, 2012, 07:16:23 am
(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/e682bc1d75e7b131bd75fa11f7caf429.jpg)
(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/dfbdd3e1a7ba30b9c1372b21b8389171.jpg)
(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/f441986c612d267fe353d836d2c1c3fc.jpg)
(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/b43b639ba5e71aec335d223935b0e0ee.jpg)
(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/65403e548e60446292a42444d957de78.jpg)
(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/b1c04a5bc5be44651f67df076caf871d.jpg)
(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/790b4dc955880f56994e608f748f2814.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on November 20, 2012, 10:25:05 am
Yay! Finally there will be a place for rock skipping!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on November 20, 2012, 10:48:15 am
Is the pedestrian going to be bi-level?  Cycling on top and pedestrian on current deck?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Teatownclown on November 20, 2012, 11:08:42 am
Great....just wonderful Tulsa has KFF behind it. What comes around goes around.

33rd Place...preliminary zoning and I do not see residential being the final zone.

Step by step...inch by inch.

Now, when will TPA get their act together for more parking?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on November 20, 2012, 12:55:05 pm
Is the pedestrian going to be bi-level?  Cycling on top and pedestrian on current deck?

Yes, the pedestrian bridge is going to be bi-level.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DowntownDan on November 20, 2012, 03:40:32 pm
So the apartments are officially going to go away?  I always thought it was weird that apartments were part of the plan but that plan posted above looks great.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on November 20, 2012, 03:41:36 pm
So the apartments are officially going to go away?  I always thought it was weird that apartments were part of the plan but that plan posted above looks great.

Yes, the leases have not been re-newed.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Oil Capital on November 20, 2012, 05:13:51 pm
Wow.   That looks pretty amazing. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: YoungTulsan on November 20, 2012, 05:14:52 pm
[600-700 Residential Units] -> [???]

It may be viewed as clearing out Riff Raff, but that is a lot of people to remove from the local economy of Brookside businesses.

How much new residential do you see in these maps? 25 to 50 rich condos?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on November 20, 2012, 07:11:44 pm
[600-700 Residential Units] -> [???]

It may be viewed as clearing out Riff Raff, but that is a lot of people to remove from the local economy of Brookside businesses.

How much new residential do you see in these maps? 25 to 50 rich condos?

More than that, but not 600 units. If I were a betting man I'd expect residential all up and down crow creek at some point.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: YoungTulsan on November 20, 2012, 08:55:45 pm
If they would go vertical we'd be in business, but you really think more than 50 units if they are one unit per footprint?

Bomasada going up helps soften the blow, but Brookside continues to need more population density, and this worries me (otherwise I think this looks fabulous and we are lucky to have a GKFF doing these things)...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on November 21, 2012, 11:42:52 am
What will be the effect on the project if the funding for the  low water dam improvements (to effect a white water park) and future low water dams continues to be thwarted? Funding at the federal level has lost momentum and the supreme court ruling and the resolute opposition by a Edmond legislator has got to blunt the effort somewhat. The Zink dam needs to be raised in height and changed in operation to make the lake complementary to the development.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on November 21, 2012, 11:51:22 am
What will be the effect on the project if the funding for the  low water dam improvements (to effect a white water park) and future low water dams continues to be thwarted? Funding at the federal level has lost momentum and the supreme court ruling and the resolute opposition by a Edmond legislator has got to blunt the effort somewhat. The Zink dam needs to be raised in height and changed in operation to make the lake complementary to the development.

Good to see you posting today.

I'd imagine this will need to be funded locally.  I'm thinking helping that along with an adjustment to the proposed V2029 plans or whatever is produced to replace V2025.

I'm talking out of my exit on this but I just don't see outside assistance helping out as long as the decisions can be made in OKC.  

Hell, I'm surprised there's no bill in the works forcing something like KFF to match any funds in OKC to anything given to Tulsa.  (just shooting a "they suck" comment out there directed at our representatives)

*Edited to add that now I imagine that bill will exist soon.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on November 21, 2012, 03:12:08 pm
The sentiment in OKC is that Tulsa once again dropped the ball by turning down V-2. Doubtful they pay enough attention to know it was a fatally flawed proposal. This gives a guy like the Edmond legislator wind in his sails...."even Tulsans don't want this development..." when in reality Tulsan's will love these changes to the river.

While speaking to a group recently, I was asked to stall for time till the priciples arived. I said, "Let's talk about river development!" Everyone laughed.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 07, 2012, 02:19:28 pm
Tulsa needs to get it's act in gear, OKC is getting ahead and pulling away.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Jonette2 on January 24, 2013, 12:48:23 am
I haven't posted on here in a long time, but I have been real interested in this Kaiser Riverside project since the beginning. I'm pretty excited about it and I talk to my co-workers about it sometimes. When I first started talking about it, they didn't believe that this was in the works. Well I said, It's on TulsaNow. Ha 

They have no idea what this TulsaNow is, it's rather funny.

Anyway, I agree that Tulsa is kinda being left in the smoke as far as the Oklahoma City thing is concerned. But it's not supposed to be a contest.Is it?

I really hope they address the parking issue, if not then it's going to be a problem. But it does look like they have bought plenty of land, so we will see.

 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on January 24, 2013, 06:51:08 am
I haven't posted on here in a long time, but I have been real interested in this Kaiser Riverside project since the beginning. I'm pretty excited about it and I talk to my co-workers about it sometimes. When I first started talking about it, they didn't believe that this was in the works. Well I said, It's on TulsaNow. Ha 

They have no idea what this TulsaNow is, it's rather funny.

Anyway, I agree that Tulsa is kinda being left in the smoke as far as the Oklahoma City thing is concerned. But it's not supposed to be a contest.Is it?

I really hope they address the parking issue, if not then it's going to be a problem. But it does look like they have bought plenty of land, so we will see.

 

I believe the plan has 600 spots as it is now. Seems pretty well addressed to me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: tulsamatt on February 18, 2013, 11:51:45 am
Any updates on this project?  The web site http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/ hasen't been updated since May 2012...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on February 18, 2013, 03:10:35 pm
Any updates on this project?  The web site http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/ hasen't been updated since May 2012...

Design phase is pretty long. I think construction was set for 2014. $20 says part of the upcoming streets package will include Riverside drive work for this.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on February 18, 2013, 04:19:24 pm
Design phase is pretty long. I think construction was set for 2014. $20 says part of the upcoming streets package will include Riverside drive work for this.

I wonder what the effect, if any, on this project of the Vision 2 failure and loss of state money for the dam(s).


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on February 19, 2013, 07:44:16 am
I wonder what the effect, if any, on this project of the Vision 2 failure and loss of state money for the dam(s).

Negligible given that it appears the concept is to divert what money that was meant for all 3 dams to just this one dam.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Patrick on April 24, 2013, 02:16:50 pm
I didn't go to the open house meetings but have been following this as close as possible, including talking to some GKFF people.  Does anyone know if they plan on keeping the neighborhood access to the park on 30th street?  If you live in that neighborhood (I don't), you can walk / ride down 30th Street and it dumps you right into the parking lot north of 31st street by the pedestrian bridge.  Can't really tell from the pictures.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on April 25, 2013, 05:26:14 am
I didn't go to the open house meetings but have been following this as close as possible, including talking to some GKFF people.  Does anyone know if they plan on keeping the neighborhood access to the park on 30th street?  If you live in that neighborhood (I don't), you can walk / ride down 30th Street and it dumps you right into the parking lot north of 31st street by the pedestrian bridge.  Can't really tell from the pictures.

I don't know, but I do know that in meetings there were people from the neighborhood asking for their to be LESS connections to the park from their neighborhood.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on April 25, 2013, 06:46:00 am
I didn't go to the open house meetings but have been following this as close as possible, including talking to some GKFF people.  Does anyone know if they plan on keeping the neighborhood access to the park on 30th street?  If you live in that neighborhood (I don't), you can walk / ride down 30th Street and it dumps you right into the parking lot north of 31st street by the pedestrian bridge.  Can't really tell from the pictures.

Is this where you are talking about?

http://goo.gl/maps/lfPum (http://goo.gl/maps/lfPum)

I can understand why the neighborhood would want LESS connections to the park.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: kherburger08 on May 01, 2013, 09:35:42 am
What is the status with this project????  The website has not been updated in a year.  Is it still happening?  I hope so.  The river really needs something like this!!!!!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dioscorides on May 01, 2013, 09:52:51 am
according to this article, it looks like they are waiting to see if infrastructure is going to be included in a new fix our streets package.  even if it isn't included, the article says construction will begin in 2014.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Gathering_Place_City_sponsor_weigh_infrastructure_needs/20130330_16_A1_CUTLIN144208


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 01, 2013, 11:45:59 am
It is still happening, the completion date has always been something like 2015.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on June 18, 2013, 07:01:47 am
Sneak peek at tonight's big reveal: http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Plan_for_new_Tulsa_park_to_be_unveiled/20130618_11_A1_CUTLIN611039


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Sutton on June 18, 2013, 09:05:44 am
The latest design shows that the apartment complex on the south end of the park (Crow Creek apartments?) won't be demolished... is this a recent change or old news?



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Nik on June 18, 2013, 11:36:28 am
Will the plans be on display tonight only? Or will TCC still have them for public viewing for awhile? I can't make it tonight, but I'd love to walk down to TCC during lunch sometime this week to view it all if I can.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: takemebacktotulsa on June 18, 2013, 02:27:49 pm
Does anyone know what is going to happen to that 70's era concrete plaza (I think it's the Zink dam?) near 31st?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on June 18, 2013, 03:35:05 pm
It was going to be demolished to make room for the water park at that location. By raising the height of the low water dam it was probably going to be submerged anyway. Now? Kirby?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on June 18, 2013, 07:15:06 pm
The latest design shows that the apartment complex on the south end of the park (Crow Creek apartments?) won't be demolished... is this a recent change or old news?



One complex is coming down as part of Phase 2 which includes the Children's Museum. The other complex is now outside of the plan, so I'm guessing it will be commercial development at some point.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on June 18, 2013, 07:16:47 pm
Will the plans be on display tonight only? Or will TCC still have them for public viewing for awhile? I can't make it tonight, but I'd love to walk down to TCC during lunch sometime this week to view it all if I can.

TCC is officially closed right now, so it likely is not going to be open to the public. You will be able to see it on the website in the next day or so if it's handled like past reveals. I went and the crowds were out the door.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: custosnox on June 18, 2013, 09:00:22 pm
Will the plans be on display tonight only? Or will TCC still have them for public viewing for awhile? I can't make it tonight, but I'd love to walk down to TCC during lunch sometime this week to view it all if I can.
They are not going to have the display after tonight.  They will be having it on display at a location to be announced for some time, then they will be moving it around town to give more people a chance to see it.  Keep an eye on their website for locations.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: custosnox on June 18, 2013, 09:02:10 pm
oh, and then there is this
http://www.newson6.com/story/22627555/many-tulsa-residents-wowed-by-plans-for-new-park-on-riverside-drive


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on June 19, 2013, 04:34:12 am
"Totally awesome"


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Weatherdemon on June 19, 2013, 07:29:22 am
I am a tad concerned about the increased costs, phase 2, and the vague early/mid 2014 start date. Those all remind me of all of the announced projects over the last 5 or so years that have never came to fruition.

With that, it's still damn exciting and will be HUGE for Tulsa!

And, I can't help it. I just love this quote  :)

Kaiser, "I don't get epiphanies. My thought process is cumulative, not episodic, not epiphimatic."


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on June 19, 2013, 08:30:31 am
I am a tad concerned about the increased costs, phase 2, and the vague early/mid 2014 start date. Those all remind me of all of the announced projects over the last 5 or so years that have never came to fruition.

There's already been a LOT spent on this project.   planning, land acquisition, scale models  :)
I think the Kaiser is quite committed to the project


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: pfox on June 19, 2013, 09:48:50 am
Is this where you are talking about?

http://goo.gl/maps/lfPum (http://goo.gl/maps/lfPum)

I can understand why the neighborhood would want LESS connections to the park.


Which is absurd.  I want more access.  If there is any shred of criticism that can be given it is that there should be easy (well lit) pedestrian access from adjacent neighborhoods to the park.

History shows us that whenever an investment like this is mad (a trail or park or a sidewalk even) some people react that way.  Its unsubstantiated fear, not backed up by facts.

What happens most of the time is people put a fence up at first, to shield themselves from the 'danger'.  The next thing they do is build a gate in the fence, so they have access to the amenity.  And that is what it is. An amenity.

Personally, I hope 31st street gets put on a road diet, to include bikeways and sidewalks to the park.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on June 19, 2013, 09:58:27 am
I am a tad concerned about the increased costs, phase 2, and the vague early/mid 2014 start date. Those all remind me of all of the announced projects over the last 5 or so years that have never came to fruition.

Given the enormity of this project, that schedule seems pretty aggressive to me. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on June 19, 2013, 11:49:54 am
Which is absurd.  I want more access.  If there is any shred of criticism that can be given it is that there should be easy (well lit) pedestrian access from adjacent neighborhoods to the park.

Absurd?  Thanks for the insult.

Pedestrian access yes.  Automobile access will just lead to the street in front of "your" house becoming a full time parking lot. 

We lived around the corner from a small shopping area when I was a kid.  We didn't have off-street parking.  We never knew if we would have a space to park our car when we came home.  In the winter, I would shovel out the snow from our car only to have someone else parked there when we came home.  I guess that's one reason I don't want to live in a dense area.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Weatherdemon on June 19, 2013, 12:04:47 pm
There's already been a LOT spent on this project.   planning, land acquisition, scale models  :)
I think the Kaiser is quite committed to the project

I have no doubt he is committed I'm just not yet conditioned to believe every great announced plan and model will come to fruition.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on June 19, 2013, 12:59:28 pm
I have no doubt he is committed I'm just not yet conditioned to believe every great announced plan and model will come to fruition.

Anyone know Kaiser's batting average?
* Guthrie Green
* Riverpark trails

anything else?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: wylie on June 19, 2013, 03:43:17 pm
Anyone know Kaiser's batting average?
* Guthrie Green
* Riverpark trails

anything else?

* Matthews Warehouse in the Brady -- Guthrie Archives/Philbrook/Gilcrease
* Westpark Apartments in Kendall Whittier

If anything, Kaiser is overly cautious about showing his cards. Same thing happened with the KW apartments, the big public reveal didn't happen until the foundation had crossed all its t's and dotted its lower-case j's. The idea for the park has been floating around since the original RFP went public in the fall of 2010 (http://www.planning.org/consultants/viewrequest.htm?RequestID=6240). GKFF kept mum about its intentions, all the while shilling $50 million for the land acquisition. They selected Michael Van Valkenburgh for the plan design, and you don't bring MVV on board unless you mean business -- this guy is a god amongst landscape architects (downtown Toronto, Brooklyn Bridge park, etc.).

So I'd say it's about a thousand.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: YoungTulsan on June 19, 2013, 06:09:48 pm
The latest design shows that the apartment complex on the south end of the park (Crow Creek apartments?) won't be demolished... is this a recent change or old news?



From what I see it looks like they are taking out part of the complex but leaving most of it.   The units right along crow creek are gone in the new plan, but the rest remain.  That is a big change from my viewpoint, retaining a couple hundred residential units.  Modernized/renovated perhaps?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on June 19, 2013, 09:08:10 pm
From what I see it looks like they are taking out part of the complex but leaving most of it.   The units right along crow creek are gone in the new plan, but the rest remain.  That is a big change from my viewpoint, retaining a couple hundred residential units.  Modernized/renovated perhaps?

Replaced with a commercial development?

As I understand it, the apartments aren't necessarily foundation owned yet.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on June 20, 2013, 07:44:36 am
According to public record GKFF Real Estate IV LLC owns all income producing multi-family housing from 31st St to 33rd Pl between Detroit Ave & Riverside Dr.  There is no record of this LLC or any LLC's with an obvious tie to GKFF owning any single family housing.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2013, 08:45:10 am
I have no doubt he is committed I'm just not yet conditioned to believe every great announced plan and model will come to fruition.



The only one which has not that I'm aware of is the river plan in 2007 which was dependent on Tulsa County getting a smash-and-grab tax increase out of the citizens for somewhat of a matching funding idea.  I think an important lesson was learned by GKFF after that failed to pass.

I also think we will get a better quality development this way with GKFF not only taking the lead but leaving the county out of the mix on it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on June 20, 2013, 10:12:54 am
I think the channels river plan of 2007 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on June 20, 2013, 10:34:08 am
I think the channels river plan of 2007 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.

Oct 2007 article:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Kaiser_River_plan_bridges_gap/071006_1_A1_hrpah70288


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on June 20, 2013, 11:01:06 am
Thanks. The channels project was 2006.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2013, 11:08:38 am
I think the channels river plan of 2007 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.

Confusion over whether the Kaiser 2007 river plan and the Warren-led 2006 Channels was being voted on was one reason cited for failure of the vote in '07.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on June 20, 2013, 11:11:52 am
Water makes you stupid. Look at surfers.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on June 20, 2013, 11:36:31 am
Water makes you stupid. Look at surfers.

You just need to back off a bit more so you can't see any details.  The long distance shots of them on the big waves are good.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on June 20, 2013, 12:06:31 pm
I think the channels river plan of 2007 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.

(http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f20/625937d1329168426-how-speedmaster-professional-like-glock-27-you_are_correct_sir.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on June 20, 2013, 12:51:11 pm
I think the channels river plan of 2007 2006 was pushed by the Warren family and not Kaiser.

Now it's correct

from comments of http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A47231 :
Quote
There WAS a river development package that was put to a vote in 2006 (see Our River Yes), but it was in no way related to Tulsa Channels. GKFF was prepared to donate hundreds of millions of dollars to develop the river if Tulsa County voters approved a bond package to pay for the rest. Residents in the City of Tulsa voted in favor of it, with those living nearest the river approving of it in higher numbers. Voters in Owasso, Broken Arrow and other outlying areas not as directly impacted by river development overwhelmingly disapproved, and ultimately outnumbered the 'yes' votes in the City of Tulsa.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2013, 01:22:35 pm
Now it's correct

from comments of http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A47231 :

The author of that article makes a number of mis-statements.  "The Channels" was never on a ballot, The Stakeholders and their concept gradually faded away until, then county commissioner Randi Miller, proposed the make-over that led to the failed river tax vote in late 2007.  Secondly, the Blue Rose did not "relocate" to River Parks.  It was an idle concept which had left Brookside years prior to the opening on the river.  Third, it's "Oktoberfest" not "Octoberfest", there's plenty more to snipe at but I'll quit there.

There were a number of troubling issues about the 2007 ballot measure:

-They tried to cram it through as quickly as possible with many vague details.  I believe it was roughly 90 days from roll out to vote.  I was told later that part of the reason for the rush was signs of a pending economic slowdown.

-There were still outstanding studies due from the USACE as to whether or not a lot of the proposals to the river flow and dams were even possible.  Those results would not be available until well after the election took place.

-They made it county-wide thinking the V-2025 approach was the way to get it passed since the "Tulsa Time" vote failed in getting necessary $$ to build a new arena.  The mistake here, there was no "chicken in every pot" like there was in V-2025 so people in Collinsville, Owasso, and other areas really didn't see anything in it for them to vote for

-The over-inflated price for the concrete plant on the west bank which would have been purchased for approximately 1/5 to 1/6 of the total package cost made it look like some lucky property owner was going to get royally greased by tax payers.

-Confusion over this being "The Channels".  Bing Thom's vision for Tulsa, as an outsider, rubbed many the wrong way.  It also had the image that a bunch of wealthy people would benefit from these islands with high-rise condos and not many others.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on June 20, 2013, 01:39:10 pm
I got the Bing Thom three islands confused with Gilligan's three hour tour.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on June 20, 2013, 01:41:00 pm
That is essentially my memory as well Conan. There was also that group in Jenks that wanted the Drillers about that time wasn't there? Lots of confusion, hyperbole, jealousy and conspiracy. The result was failure.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: YoungTulsan on June 20, 2013, 01:45:21 pm
Confusion over whether the Kaiser 2007 river plan and the Warren-led 2006 Channels was being voted on was one reason cited for failure of the vote in '07.



Yes, The Channels was just a pipe dream.   The 2007 Kaiser plan was the Tulsa County "River Tax" which passed in Tulsa City Limits but failed county-wide, and upon failure the CoT captured the revenue in the 2008 Streets tax.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2013, 01:53:52 pm
I got the Bing Thom three islands confused with Gilligan's three hour tour.

I get bing cherries confused with Chandler Bing all the time.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on June 21, 2013, 03:14:53 pm
I like this project a LOT.  Basically what will happen is this:

Tulsa will get a WORLD class central park that will attract people from all over the Tulsa area (including Broken Arow, Glenpool and Owasso, communities who voted down the GKFF-sponsored river plan in 2007) and then they will all say, "Wow this is nice!!! But what the hell is up with that river over there?  There's never any water in it!!"  ... and then meanwhile, back at GKFF headquarters, there is a collective "I know, right!?....Dumbasses"

lol


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on June 21, 2013, 03:21:30 pm
That is so true.

As regards the concrete plant that people were so incensed about making a windfall profit, they weren't even interested in selling it. Still aren't. It takes a lot of money to buy something someone doesn't want to sell.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on June 21, 2013, 08:13:04 pm
It takes a lot of money to buy something someone doesn't want to sell.

So true.  I have a few things I would willingly sell for a price WELL above fair market price.  Anyone want to buy a 98 Buick Regal GS for $1,000,000. ?  I'll let you have it Monday for cash.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: warreng88 on July 02, 2013, 10:21:28 am
I like this project a LOT.  Basically what will happen is this:

Tulsa will get a WORLD class central park that will attract people from all over the Tulsa area (including Broken Arow, Glenpool and Owasso, communities who voted down the GKFF-sponsored river plan in 2007) and then they will all say, "Wow this is nice!!! But what the hell is up with that river over there?  There's never any water in it!!"  ... and then meanwhile, back at GKFF headquarters, there is a collective "I know, right!?....Dumbasses"

lol

It's like buying a house that is a fixer-upper: The minute you fix one thing, something else stands out that needs to be fixed.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on July 02, 2013, 11:05:30 am
I get bing cherries confused with Chandler Bing all the time.

Chandler did work in Tulsa for awhile, although not long enough for them to send one camera to get any location b-roll.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2013, 11:48:46 am
It's like buying a house that is a fixer-upper:

I don't think that this is, no.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on July 05, 2013, 10:33:17 am
This is a great plan, potentially a transformative project for the city and could help eventually get a river plan passed once its complete and people are suddenly more interested in the riverfront.

Some of my thoughts:
1) The "area of possible expansion" along Crow Creek to me should be some kind of high quality, higher-density residential development along with the rest of the Crow Creek apartments.  This is a unique opportunity for a mix of apartments and townhouses that would have a very desirable location. 
2) I love the plan for a Crow Creek greenbelt with a multi-use trail.  It doesn't show it but I would hope the trail would be extended to at least Peoria, and preferably to Zink Park.
3) Hopefully this creates the impetus for the city to finally build sidewalks along 31st St. through midtown so people can walk to this park.
4) I still hope one day the concrete plant can also become a signature green space, probably only possible if GKFF is somehow involved.  Maybe after this project is completed.  Surround the river with parks and green space, and it can make the surrounding neighborhoods better.  Keep the retail/residential density where it belongs downtown not spread out too thin by having a river retail area, downtown retail area, etc. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on July 08, 2013, 12:41:40 pm
Agreed on the need for side walks on 31st Street. So many runners are using the street there (myself included) and it's an uneasy experience that requires lots of looking behind you and then jumping up onto the curb when a car comes.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Patrick on July 12, 2013, 08:53:00 am
I discussed this with a projects coordinator with Incog and they said that they expect at some time in the next few years to include bike lanes on 31st from Peoria to Riverside.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on July 12, 2013, 10:31:30 am
Please don't hit me....

I'm just going to say what I know a lot of people are afraid to say. Without the waterpark component of this plan (the one the Edmond legislator killed because of the way it was written was determined to be logrolling) which involved whitewater rafting, raising the Zink dam to make sure water actually covered the sand and a possible link to the rest of the river downstream, this new park is pretty boring for most of us. As one of my guests visiting at the fourth of July celebration asked me, "What's the point?"

He also wanted to revisit an old memory by running along the old MKT path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge and was surprised to see it wide, flat and loaded with strollers, dogs and bicycles. He said it lacked its old character.

The Gathering Place is a lovely park that has walking paths, is friendly to children, strollers, leashed dogs and wildlife critters emanating from the river. It will require maintenance, constant attention, and some security concerns as well. We have a park like that. Centennial Park at 6th and Peoria (the former Central Park). It is a lovely park that has very little use by the public. After you've walked it a couple times.....

Just want to throw that out there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on July 12, 2013, 10:36:04 am
That would make sense, take 31st down to 2 lanes away from the Riverside and Peoria intersections and add trails and lighting on the south side of the street.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on July 12, 2013, 10:57:59 am
Please don't hit me....

I'm just going to say what I know a lot of people are afraid to say. Without the waterpark component of this plan (the one the Edmond legislator killed because of the way it was written was determined to be logrolling) which involved whitewater rafting, raising the Zink dam to make sure water actually covered the sand and a possible link to the rest of the river downstream, this new park is pretty boring for most of us. As one of my guests visiting at the fourth of July celebration asked me, "What's the point?"

He also wanted to revisit an old memory by running along the old MKT path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge and was surprised to see it wide, flat and loaded with strollers, dogs and bicycles. He said it lacked its old character.

The Gathering Place is a lovely park that has walking paths, is friendly to children, strollers, leashed dogs and wildlife critters emanating from the river. It will require maintenance, constant attention, and some security concerns as well. We have a park like that. Centennial Park at 6th and Peoria (the former Central Park). It is a lovely park that has very little use by the public. After you've walked it a couple times.....

Just want to throw that out there.

there will be maintenance... but Kaiser is footing the bill there.
Yes, it is "just a park" .   So is Woodward
I think comparing the Gathering Place to any park with in this region / timezone, is like like comparing Tulsa to NYC.  Both are cities, but the comparison ends there.   This will be to Tulsa, like Central park is to NYC, or Golden Gate park to San Fran.

I'll be going to NYC in a couple months.  I'm going to make a point to check out the Brooklyn park this guy's done.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on July 12, 2013, 11:42:40 am
It's like buying a house that is a fixer-upper: The minute you fix one thing, something else stands out that needs to be fixed.
Yeah it always turns out to be more than you can chew. "Never bite off more than ya can chew" should be rule #1.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on July 12, 2013, 11:52:10 am
I never liked Riverside Drive being so close to the RiverSide jogging trails- I wish there was a way to change that, either close down Riverside Drive to motor traffic and turn the street into a jogging trail, and re-locate the motor traffic elsewhere or tear down  the buildings east of the current Riverside Drive and build a new Riverside Drive road there and tear up and fill in the current Riverside Drive with grass, so the trails and motor traffic will be farther apart. But the cost of doing that would be in orbit... The west bank trails don't have vehicle traffic so near. Since I'm on the topic, I wish the casino would re-locate the jogging trail to the back near the river so runners would not have to cross a busy casino driveway. Jogging trails and street crossings are a bad mix and should be avoided. They keep talking about moving the trails but nothing is ever done. The jogging trail would really be nice if it could go  from 71st street to 101st and bypass the casino traffic totally. I enjoy the short section of trail  south of 71st street it's far from the Riverside traffic and noise but near 81st street  the trail curves east toward Riverside Drive and south to the casino, a bad section to run on.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on July 12, 2013, 12:19:33 pm
I never liked Riverside Drive being so close to the RiverSide jogging trails- I wish there was a way to change that, either close down Riverside Drive to motor traffic and turn the street into a jogging trail, and re-locate the motor traffic elsewhere or tear down  the buildings east of the current Riverside Drive and build a new Riverside Drive road there and tear up and fill in the current Riverside Drive with grass, so the trails and motor traffic will be farther apart. But the cost of doing that would be in orbit... The west bank trails don't have vehicle traffic so near. Since I'm on the topic, I wish the casino would re-locate the jogging trail to the back near the river so runners would not have to cross a busy casino driveway. Jogging trails and street crossings are a bad mix and should be avoided. They keep talking about moving the trails but nothing is ever done. The jogging trail would really be nice if it could go  from 71st street to 101st and bypass the casino traffic totally. I enjoy the short section of trail  south of 71st street it's far from the Riverside traffic and noise but near 81st street  the trail curves east toward Riverside Drive and south to the casino, a bad section to run on.

I somewhat disagree.  There are plenty of places around to jog, bike, or walk where you can be out of sight and sound of traffic.  I like River Parks precisely because it is not so isolated.  Driving down riverside you see the people out and that in itself encourages you to join in and do the same.  Being on the trails, even during times when there are not many people out, and having the cars go by helps you feel like your not "out in the middle of the boonies".  Guess I am a city boy and like a good mix of traffic with my nature  ;D  However, I do agree that having the section in front of the casino in back of it would be a good change.





Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on July 12, 2013, 12:26:39 pm
I somewhat disagree.  There are plenty of places around to jog, bike, or walk where you can be out of sight and sound of traffic.  I like River Parks precisely because it is not so isolated.  Driving down riverside you see the people out and that in itself encourages you to join in and do the same.  Being on the trails, even during times when there are not many people out, and having the cars go by helps you feel like your not "out in the middle of the boonies".  Guess I am a city boy and like a good mix of traffic with my nature  ;D  However, I do agree that having the section in front of the casino in back of it would be a good change.

Agreed.  It helps give it a more urban feel.
If you want away from traffic, enjoy the trail on the west side of the river (or the Osage trail)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2013, 01:06:05 pm
Please don't hit me....

I'm just going to say what I know a lot of people are afraid to say. Without the waterpark component of this plan (the one the Edmond legislator killed because of the way it was written was determined to be logrolling) which involved whitewater rafting, raising the Zink dam to make sure water actually covered the sand and a possible link to the rest of the river downstream, this new park is pretty boring for most of us. As one of my guests visiting at the fourth of July celebration asked me, "What's the point?"

He also wanted to revisit an old memory by running along the old MKT path from 18th to the pedestrian bridge and was surprised to see it wide, flat and loaded with strollers, dogs and bicycles. He said it lacked its old character.

The Gathering Place is a lovely park that has walking paths, is friendly to children, strollers, leashed dogs and wildlife critters emanating from the river. It will require maintenance, constant attention, and some security concerns as well. We have a park like that. Centennial Park at 6th and Peoria (the former Central Park). It is a lovely park that has very little use by the public. After you've walked it a couple times.....

Just want to throw that out there.

I do not miss the crappy asphalt that used to top that levy. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on July 12, 2013, 01:50:24 pm
the area I am talking about was not a levy. Its an old railroad bed. It wasn't nice for guys in spandex cruising in top gear, but it was a nice, quiet walk or run. I like it just fine now as its more available for everyone. Its just that runners seem to think the paths should be made for them (Sauer would replace Riverside drive with a running path), bikers are sure they should be made for them and parents with strollers and dogs want everything to be for them.

That leaves a lot of other people who end up paying for amenities for those three groups but find little to like about the outcomes. A repaving of an old narrow, overgrown path with lots of character would have been fine. Of course, now I see that as part of the plan for The Gathering Place and its Whitewater park this little path needed to be enlarged and improved. But the activities aren't happening for a long time to come, maybe never. Without them the whole thing benefits fewer segments of the population. In fact its kind of boring for the rest of us.

Even Dewey made clear in his campaign remarks that real development "around the river" is contingent upon improvements and activities "on the river".


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2013, 02:31:09 pm
the area I am talking about was not a levy. Its an old railroad bed. It wasn't nice for guys in spandex cruising in top gear, but it was a nice, quiet walk or run. I like it just fine now as its more available for everyone. Its just that runners seem to think the paths should be made for them (Sauer would replace Riverside drive with a running path), bikers are sure they should be made for them and parents with strollers and dogs want everything to be for them.

That leaves a lot of other people who end up paying for amenities for those three groups but find little to like about the outcomes. A repaving of an old narrow, overgrown path with lots of character would have been fine. Of course, now I see that as part of the plan for The Gathering Place and its Whitewater park this little path needed to be enlarged and improved. But the activities aren't happening for a long time to come, maybe never. Without them the whole thing benefits fewer segments of the population. In fact its kind of boring for the rest of us.

Even Dewey made clear in his campaign remarks that real development "around the river" is contingent upon improvements and activities "on the river".


I know exactly where you are talking about I've always called the roadbed a "levy".  I guess I fail to understand what is not to like about smooth pavement and better lighting rather than crapped out asphalt that wasn't even a pleasure nor safe (IMO) to run on anymore. 

In a diverse city like Tulsa we all pay for amenities we never use: I don't have kids in TPS, there are many roads I never drive or ride on in Tulsa, I've never visited our fancier city hall, have only been to BOK center twice in five years, rarely take in our museums, yet I pay my share for those amenities, and it doesn't bother me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on July 12, 2013, 04:04:07 pm
I know exactly where you are talking about I've always called the roadbed a "levy".  I guess I fail to understand what is not to like about smooth pavement and better lighting rather than crapped out asphalt that wasn't even a pleasure nor safe (IMO) to run on anymore. 

In a diverse city like Tulsa we all pay for amenities we never use: I don't have kids in TPS, there are many roads I never drive or ride on in Tulsa, I've never visited our fancier city hall, have only been to BOK center twice in five years, rarely take in our museums, yet I pay my share for those amenities, and it doesn't bother me.

Well, gee, I wish I was you.

Levees hold water back. Railroads hold trains up. The civics lesson was un-necessary.

This path was in need of a new coat of asphalt, just like they re-pave side streets rather than dig them up and pour concrete to make it smoother for high speed bikers who think they're preparing for Olympic events. It didn't need widened, marked, concreted, lit all night and made suburban pretty. The auditory, stop light on 21st is a nice touch but no one was complaining. Now cars have to stop both ways for two blocks for one pedestrian and often just run it anyway. But like I already said, I have no problem with it. Its a nice path. And I understand why they did it considering the expected traffic for the water park. It just lost its character and it now appears overdone without a water activity at the other end.

You'll never hear me complain about a water spray park at 41st and Riverside that I've never even visited either. I wish it had been there when my kids were little but everyone wanted to spend money on running paths and tennis courts back then. Never enough of them and always in demand. So they built more courts and paths then those phases diminished and they all fell into dis-repair. Parks dept didn't have money.

Now its bikes and parks and we're all supposed to feign excitement for what looks to be a pretty boring little park with limited access. You are in one of those groups that insists on all of us dedicating public assets for your current passion. I'm in one too! Try to step out of that world and look at all the overweight, elderly, infirm, unhealthy, desk chained, overworked taxpayers who help fund our passions and understand this: it was good Kaiser jumped in because had it come to a vote the population would have shrugged.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 13, 2013, 07:57:30 am
Well, gee, I wish I was you.

Levees hold water back. Railroads hold trains up. The civics lesson was un-necessary.

This path was in need of a new coat of asphalt, just like they re-pave side streets rather than dig them up and pour concrete to make it smoother for high speed bikers who think they're preparing for Olympic events. It didn't need widened, marked, concreted, lit all night and made suburban pretty. The auditory, stop light on 21st is a nice touch but no one was complaining. Now cars have to stop both ways for two blocks for one pedestrian and often just run it anyway. But like I already said, I have no problem with it. Its a nice path. And I understand why they did it considering the expected traffic for the water park. It just lost its character and it now appears overdone without a water activity at the other end.

You'll never hear me complain about a water spray park at 41st and Riverside that I've never even visited either. I wish it had been there when my kids were little but everyone wanted to spend money on running paths and tennis courts back then. Never enough of them and always in demand. So they built more courts and paths then those phases diminished and they all fell into dis-repair. Parks dept didn't have money.

Now its bikes and parks and we're all supposed to feign excitement for what looks to be a pretty boring little park with limited access. You are in one of those groups that insists on all of us dedicating public assets for your current passion. I'm in one too! Try to step out of that world and look at all the overweight, elderly, infirm, unhealthy, desk chained, overworked taxpayers who help fund our passions and understand this: it was good Kaiser jumped in because had it come to a vote the population would have shrugged.

You're starting to sound like a conservative curmudgeon, Aqua.  Sure there's not an old Republican voter ID card in your wallet?  ;D

I'm really not aware of any organization amongst Tulsa cyclists that's insisting all of us dedicate public assets to fuel "our passion".  Far as I know, KFF has personally funded most of the trail improvements since the 2007 river tax vote when tax payers didn't shrug their shoulders, they said "NO!"- and for good reason public trusts find ways to mismanage and misallocate funds at an alarming rate.  You can see what 30 plus years of management of the trail system led to with a public trust.  Once we found a private benefactor to shepherd improvements and maintenance, look how much better the system looks and how much safer it is.

As the popularity of cycling has increased in Tulsa, it's been nice to have separate trails for walkers and runners and trails for those on wheeled equipment (long-boarders and skaters use the trails as well).  Judging by the ever-growing cycling community in Tulsa, I hardly see it as a fad.  Nationally, cycling is on the increase, not just Tulsa. As gas prices remain at or above $3 per gallon, people are finding ways to leave the car at home and people are finding it's a very low impact exercise with long-lasting benefits.

Wider trails allow people with their strollers, wandering toddlers, dogs on long leashes, joggers, skaters, and cyclists to co-exist safely.  Let's face it, use of the trails is up quite a bit from the mid-1970's.  To be quite honest, I've never observed any lack of interest in them, if anything the interest and usage seems to increase yearly.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on July 13, 2013, 09:07:29 am
Railroads hold trains up.

i thought it was train robbers that hold trains up.
 
 :D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on July 13, 2013, 10:45:32 am
i thought it was train robbers that hold trains up.
 
 :D

Used to be, now its government bureacracy and inefficiencies!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on July 13, 2013, 12:19:06 pm
I somewhat disagree.  There are plenty of places around to jog, bike, or walk where you can be out of sight and sound of traffic.  I like River Parks precisely because it is not so isolated.  Driving down riverside you see the people out and that in itself encourages you to join in and do the same.  Being on the trails, even during times when there are not many people out, and having the cars go by helps you feel like your not "out in the middle of the boonies".  Guess I am a city boy and like a good mix of traffic with my nature  ;D  However, I do agree that having the section in front of the casino in back of it would be a good change.




Yes, but with the street (RiverSide Drive) being  so close  you hear traffic noise while  in the RiverSide Park and runners breath in traffic fumes and tail pipe  exhaust, and sections of the trail are darn close to the roadway so that any car that jumps a curb can hit a runner. The Sandspring Trail is  also is close to a street (Charles page) and it's full of street crossings. That's one thing I really enjoyed about the Trinity Trail in Fort Worth Texas it follows the Trinity River with no street crossings and no roads or highways are near.. At any road/street crossings the trail goes under the road using a underpass so runners do not have to stop. The  runners are close to nature, in spring the riverbanks are full of Texas wildflowers and you see many animals around. It's a very pleasant place to run- one side of the Trinity Trail has the river and the other side you have woods and open prairie lands, above you have the big blue Texas sky. No motor traffic. I know it's not practical to move RiverSide Drive away, but it would be nicer if it was not there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 13, 2013, 12:47:51 pm
Yes, but with the street (RiverSide Drive) being  so close  you hear traffic noise while  in the RiverSide Park and runners breath in traffic fumes and tail pipe  exhaust, and sections of the trail are darn close to the roadway so that any car that jumps a curb can hit a runner.

That must be why no one ever runs or walks there.

Oh. Wait a minute.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on July 13, 2013, 03:24:33 pm
Yes, but with the street (RiverSide Drive) being  so close  you hear traffic noise while  in the RiverSide Park and runners breath in traffic fumes and tail pipe  exhaust, and sections of the trail are darn close to the roadway so that any car that jumps a curb can hit a runner.

That must be some beater of a car going by if it's exhaust is an issue.
Riverside is currently a pretty narrow street with narrow lanes.  Cars are close to other cars.   Cars might (and do) hit other cars.   

Any car leaving the roadway is being helmed by a drunk and/or careless driver..  they're going to cause harm one way or the other.     

On rivertrails cyclists are the bigger hazard to pedestrians.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on July 15, 2013, 08:10:21 am
Aqua, the same could be said of Guthrie Green.  It has just about zero "amenities" and the first time we visited my kids found it boring.  But, the foundation has programmed the heck out of it and now my kids love to visit there.  I believe they will do the same thing with A Gathering Place.  The programming will make the difference in turning a big open expanse into a destination.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on July 15, 2013, 09:06:40 am
Aqua, the same could be said of Guthrie Green.  It has just about zero "amenities" and the first time we visited my kids found it boring.  But, the foundation has programmed the heck out of it and now my kids love to visit there.  I believe they will do the same thing with A Gathering Place.  The programming will make the difference in turning a big open expanse into a destination.

I hope you're right. I would point out that the area surrounding the Green is an attraction in itself. It has museums, theater, restaurants, studios, bars, the arena, the Drillers stadium and more. The Gathering place will have to rely on programmed activities as it is hemmed in between an inactive river and a sedate neighborhood.

Conan, we see those trends differently I guess. When I ran there in the mid seventies it was very busy. That's what spurred improvements and expansion of the River Parks. Lots of interest in jogging due to a book by a guy named Cooper. When they shut the path down to build the fountains and dam at the pedestrian bridge, people were livid that they had to be inconvenienced. It peaked in the early 80's when the path became known for perverts, rapists and homeless and has only in the last decade regained momentum. Still its a very small percentage of taxpayers who even make regular use of the facilities.

btw, I am just a regular curmudgeon.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on August 01, 2013, 08:13:41 pm
I hadn't seen this photo before. Pretty awesome

(http://www.mvvainc.com/media/files/94e1e040f62fbd695119be26affe41b6.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on August 02, 2013, 09:53:37 am
replacing old classic light fixtures with new light fixtures built to look like the old one is not the same thing.

Older lighting fixtures had optics designed for much lower levels of light, which allowed them to blend in to ambient lighting.

The big fail today is trying to make high-intensity light sources work inside those low-intensity unshielded optics, and the result is vision-robbing glare.


BTW, I have yet to see a rendering of the proposed lighting for this project; a somewhat critical detail in an area where people are sharing it with nature.
All the structures and landscapes seem to glow on their own in the drawings.
...not that that couldnt be kinda cool, but...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on August 07, 2013, 02:13:00 pm
The Gathering Place Gets a Green Light

http://kwgs.com/post/gathering-place-gets-green-light (http://kwgs.com/post/gathering-place-gets-green-light)

(http://kwgs.com/sites/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201308/BILL_Leighty.jpg)

Quote
The proposed 'Gathering Place' along the Arkansas River gets a boost. The Tulsa Planning Commission, this afternoon,  approved a Public Unit Development permit for the project along Riverside Drive.

The park is being funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation. Planning Commissioner Bill Leighty says Tulsa has never had a gift like this.

Bill Leighty - "This is such a enormous gift to the City of Tulsa of the extent of what it's going to do for the quality of life here really won't be realized until sometime after the thing is completed."

He says the gift from the Kaiser Family is attracting other philanthropic groups to donate to the project.

Bill Leighty - "The foundation has made it clear that they're sponsoring this and they're going to fund it. But a lot of other philanthropic interests and corporate sponsors are coming forward because they want to be partner."

Construction on the first phase is expected to begin early next year.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on August 07, 2013, 02:22:53 pm
The Gathering Place Gets a Green Light

http://kwgs.com/post/gathering-place-gets-green-light (http://kwgs.com/post/gathering-place-gets-green-light)

(http://kwgs.com/sites/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201308/BILL_Leighty.jpg)


I hate to be the skeptic here, but I'll believe it 'when cranes are in the air'...so to speak, anyway.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on August 07, 2013, 02:57:19 pm
I hate to be the skeptic here, but I'll believe it 'when cranes are in the air'...so to speak, anyway.

It's Kaiser. It will happen.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on August 07, 2013, 06:07:51 pm
It's Kaiser. It will happen.

It's not Kaiser I'm worried about getting it done.  I worry about those forces that may try to oppose it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on August 11, 2013, 11:51:21 am
Williams pledges 18mil (11 of which is conditional of Zink dam being fixed).  "Lodge" structure is now "Williams Lodge"

Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Williams_pledges_16_million_to_A_Gathering_Place_for/20130811_11_A1_CUTLIN853900#comments)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on September 15, 2013, 10:19:27 am
I'm curious, what kind of museum would they put here on Crow Creek?  Seems like a good place for relocating the Tulsa Children's Museum, with all of the other kid-friendly spaces nearby.
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page75-1000x772.jpg)
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page10-1000x772.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on September 15, 2013, 10:29:04 am
I'm curious, what kind of museum would they put here on Crow Creek?  Seems like a good place for relocating the Tulsa Children's Museum, with all of the other kid-friendly spaces nearby.
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page75-1000x772.jpg)
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page10-1000x772.jpg)

You might just be on to something there......


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on October 15, 2013, 10:08:33 pm
Yes, The Channels was just a pipe dream.   The 2007 Kaiser plan was the Tulsa County "River Tax" which passed in Tulsa City Limits but failed county-wide, and upon failure the CoT captured the revenue in the 2008 Streets tax.

So now look who is building a skyscraper on an artificial island in the river:

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/River-Spirit-breaks-ground-on-expansion/ksioPXO8PE6hEQ4oWM42GA.cspx


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on October 15, 2013, 11:24:27 pm
So now look who is building a skyscraper on an artificial island in the river:

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/River-Spirit-breaks-ground-on-expansion/ksioPXO8PE6hEQ4oWM42GA.cspx

Where should we be looking?  I don't see any islands or landfill proposed by the Creeks...
(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/b2/3b2b2565-8400-5bbb-b7fc-910923e4e897/525d23d881966.image.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on October 16, 2013, 09:37:08 am
If i remember the 80's correctly, and that's debatable, the whole complex is built on fill. I worked that account for the NPC during that time and watched in amazement as they pushed, dumped and re-arranged sand along the river bank.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 16, 2013, 11:36:53 am
Per a TW article shared on FB, ONEOK is contributing $10,000,000 over ten years to the project.

Too bad people don't see that this kind of thing would happen more if we'd support more projects like this.

We'll have wider streets though.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Downtowner on November 15, 2013, 03:29:27 pm
How about one of these to run in River Parks with a station at The Gathering Place?   www.Shweeb.com


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on December 01, 2013, 01:08:34 pm
QuikTrip contributing $12.5 million

http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/local/quiktrip-pledges-million-to-gathering-place-project/article_30f771ed-8c61-578e-bb5d-67ccb79c2a87.html?mode=jqm (http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/local/quiktrip-pledges-million-to-gathering-place-project/article_30f771ed-8c61-578e-bb5d-67ccb79c2a87.html?mode=jqm)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on December 12, 2013, 01:08:55 pm
The Arkansas, The Future

http://kwgs.com/post/arkansas-future (http://kwgs.com/post/arkansas-future)

Quote
What should be done about the Arkansas River in Tulsa?

A new task force got down to work today at city Hall.   City Councilor G.T. Bynum wants to be sure lessons learned from past river proposals are remembered.

G.T. BYNUM: "We just need to do our homework better than we have done to date on this in order to develop that proposal."


Bynum says any plans must be well vetted and include input from all the communities along the river in Tulsa County.

Those at the table for today's discussion, included Mayor Bartlett and Jenks Mayor Vic Vreeland. The Tulsa Regional Chamber of Commerce President Mike Neal was also there.

Wouldn't the lessons learned be to allow each city along the river to develop its own part of the River?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: MyDogHunts on December 12, 2013, 05:56:44 pm
If i remember the 80's correctly, and that's debatable, the whole complex is built on fill. I worked that account for the NPC during that time and watched in amazement as they pushed, dumped and re-arranged sand along the river bank.

Is it realistic to have dredging as a part of the low-water dams to give the river water?  Not sure if the sand would have a use, but with flooding it seems logical that a pool performs better than just damming.

I've lived in Louisiana so levies make sense... build up a 10'-levie/ridgeline that is an extension of Riverside Park into the river bed and then dig it deep into the river itself.  Have a couple of low water dams upstream and a big pool downstream.  Dredge regularly.

It just seems like the cost they are projecting is high.  $40-or-how-many-million?



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Stanley1 on December 16, 2013, 12:40:44 pm
Where is the parking?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on December 16, 2013, 12:55:28 pm
Where is the parking?

Spread throughout the park.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on December 16, 2013, 01:08:41 pm
Where is the parking?

Where the Bald Eagle and Least Tern breeding grounds were?  ;)

On a serous note, I havent been hearing anything on what consideration is being given to the endangered species there,
especially when it comes to lessening the impact of area lighting on migrations.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Patrick on December 18, 2013, 04:41:43 pm
Perhaps I've missed this in the commentary, but I had heard they were going to move the Blair Mansion from the property.  I now understand it will be demolished in the next month or so.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 18, 2013, 05:25:58 pm
Where the Bald Eagle and Least Tern breeding grounds were?  ;)

On a serous note, I havent been hearing anything on what consideration is being given to the endangered species there,
especially when it comes to lessening the impact of area lighting on migrations.

What endangered species reside in that area? I haven't seen any Eagles. Mostly fox, nutria, some geese, owls, egrets, and blue herons. None of those are at risk. The terns are nesting upstream and downstream from the area.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 18, 2013, 05:26:57 pm
Perhaps I've missed this in the commentary, but I had heard they were going to move the Blair Mansion from the property.  I know understand it will be demolished in the next month or so.

Henderson must have found out the house was a replica of the Jefferson Davis home.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 19, 2013, 11:00:46 am
Henderson must have found out the house was a replica of the Jefferson Davis home.

I’d always heard a replica of Monticello. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Ibanez on December 19, 2013, 11:05:19 am
I believe it is a replica of The Hermitage.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 19, 2013, 12:00:12 pm
Andrew Jackson's home? A Democrat? Must be torn down and the ground burned!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on December 19, 2013, 09:57:07 pm
Perhaps I've missed this in the commentary, but I had heard they were going to move the Blair Mansion from the property.  I now understand it will be demolished in the next month or so.

It is not owned by the group who now owns the land, and that group isn't starting anything until next summer.

The guy who owns the mansion had considered turning it into a nursing home, then said he was going to move it to Colorado.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Patrick on December 25, 2013, 02:20:36 pm
It is not owned by the group who now owns the land, and that group isn't starting anything until next summer.

The guy who owns the mansion had considered turning it into a nursing home, then said he was going to move it to Colorado.

Yes, that is the same info I had.  Just relaying that he is no longer moving the house, rather demolishing it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 26, 2013, 09:14:09 am
I think that name "A Gathering Place" is not a good fit, could they not of thunk up something better? As for the RiverFront all I really care about it the jogging trails. The only reason I go there is to run on the trails.. But that's just me-  I wish they would focus on and  hurry up and build that new trail in back of the casino, as it is now the current  trail crosses busy casino driveways making it a hazzard for runners.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 26, 2013, 09:36:55 am
Really, I agree.

Perhaps, "A Dispersing Place next to the Running Place?"


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on December 26, 2013, 09:45:03 am
Really, I agree.

Perhaps, "A Dispersing Place next to the Running Place?"

Nicely done.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 26, 2013, 09:47:32 am
This will be a nice place for non-runners too.

Run along sauerkraut.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 26, 2013, 02:38:52 pm
Really, I agree.

Perhaps, "A Dispersing Place next to the Running Place?"
What will that Gathering Place be used for anyhow? Picnics? To me it just seems like alot of money spent for little gain. I'd like to see the trail system expended farther south of 101st street. That's just me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 26, 2013, 02:43:15 pm
Yes. It is just you.

There will be concerts and activities everywhere. There is planned to be a museum and retail shops.

In Tulsa, we can do more than just provide places for you to run.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on December 26, 2013, 03:07:11 pm
What will that Gathering Place be used for anyhow? Picnics? To me it just seems like alot of money spent for little gain. I'd like to see the trail system expended farther south of 101st street. That's just me.

Donate some money then.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on December 26, 2013, 03:59:44 pm
Donate some money then.

If not money, donate time.  Do something positive.  Help someone or something good.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on December 26, 2013, 07:21:42 pm
What will that Gathering Place be used for anyhow? Picnics? To me it just seems like alot of money spent for little gain. I'd like to see the trail system expended farther south of 101st street. That's just me.

I know.  Reminds me of that big rectangular park in NYC.  Yea there were some jogging trails and such, but I don't for the life of me know why there were soooo many other people all over the place. Some seemed to be merely walking (who knows what was actually going on there)?  Some were even just sitting, completely puzzling.  Then there were a lot of people laying out in the sun (omg, don't they know they are asking for skin cancer!).  Some were out rowing boats in a little pond (dangerous!).  Then there were people out listening to others make a lot of "music" (racket if you ask me, shouldn't parks be quiet places?). I could go on and on, it was really the most absurd thing and you know they spent a LOT of money on that silly park.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 27, 2013, 03:58:04 pm
Yes. It is just you.

There will be concerts and activities everywhere. There is planned to be a museum and retail shops.

In Tulsa, we can do more than just provide places for you to run.
Does not Tulsa already have those things??  A place for concerts is on the west bank, it sounds like the same thing they have at Jenks- the area is not that large to have tons of shops a museum and the like anyhow- what about parking, parking can be a issue at the 41st street lot. I dunno it does not sound that exciting to me. :-X


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 27, 2013, 06:31:00 pm
Does not Tulsa already have those things??  A place for concerts is on the west bank, it sounds like the same thing they have at Jenks- the area is not that large to have tons of shops a museum and the like anyhow- what about parking, parking can be a issue at the 41st street lot. I dunno it does not sound that exciting to me. :-X

You can't share the river with other activities besides running?

You sound selfish.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 28, 2013, 02:30:07 pm
You can't share the river with other activities besides running?

You sound selfish.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I just don't think a "Gathering Place" is something Tulsans will use- it will be a lot of money spent for nothing, -I believe in saving  taxpayer money- there already is a RiverWalk center, A River Casino, the city of  Jenks has a lot going on by the River, the River west park is like a big gathering place right now. Why do the powers that be always seem to have to do something on the River, let it alone and let the people enjoy it as it is. Do we really need more shops, stores, congestion, traffic parking problems, then after that  they want to tear up the road and make that wider, soon the restful quiet and peaceful Riverfront will be nothing more than a noisy commercial mall. BTW in Cincinnati, Ohio there is a big fuss about building a street car, a few weeks ago they claimed the project was dead & buried - a money pit, the city  said they will let the voters decide on the street car issue- now suddenly without any vote of the people the street car is alive and well and new track is being layed in a hurry. No more talk of letting the people vote on it. Who wants a street car and who will use it? The city of Cincinnati has been working on the street car project for years.. Tulsa  has been fussing with the river front and riverfront projects for decades, let the riverfront  alone..   http://www.protransit.com/FAQs/  or another site... http://www.protransit.com


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on December 28, 2013, 02:45:11 pm
Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I just don't think a "Gathering Place" is something Tulsans will use- it will be a lot of money spent for nothing, there already is a RiverWalk center, A River Casino, the city of  Jenks has a lot going on by the River, the River west park is like a big gathering place right now. Why do the powers that be always seem to have to do something on the River, let it alone and let the people enjoy it as it is. Do we really need more shops, stores, congestion, traffic parking problems, then after that  they want to tear up the road and make that wider, soon the restful quiet and peaceful Riverfront will be nothing more than a noisy commercial mall. BTW in Cincinnati, Ohio there is a big fuss about building a street car, a few weeks ago they claimed the project was dead & buried - a money pit, the city  said they will let the voters decide on the street car issue- now suddenly without any vote of the people the street car is alive and well and new track is being layed in a hurry. No more talk of letting the people vote on it. Who wants a street car and who will use it? The city of Cincinnati has been working on the street car project for years.. Tulsa  has been fussing with the river front and riverfront projects for decades, let the riverfront  alone..   http://www.protransit.com/FAQs/  or another site... Http://www.protransit.com

Guess what...this isn't Cincinnati...nor is it Columbus or Ft Worth or Omaha.

I'm going to guess you've never been to downtown..wait a minute, that would be presumptuous of me.  You'd have to live here to come downtown.

Sheesh.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 28, 2013, 02:53:23 pm
Guess what...this isn't Cincinnati...nor is it Columbus or Ft Worth or Omaha.

I'm going to guess you've never been to downtown..wait a minute, that would be presumptuous of me.  You'd have to live here to come downtown.

Sheesh.
Yeah but the same idea is at work- your  typical city pet projects just to spend taxpayer money, every city seems to have something like that going on, in Cincinnati, Ohio  it's a street car thing, in Tulsa it's building more river dams, building a gathering place or doing this or that project- they finish one project and have to start another. I just think they should let the river front as it is - it's fine right now. We have nice trails and places to R&R why keep throwing more money at something if a need is not even there. Like I said why not turn the west river park into the gathering place like it already is, it'll save a lot of taxpayer  money. 90% of the River Park users go there for the trails anyhow, if they want to spend money extend the current trail south of 101st street -do something people need and  can use, put the casino trail in back of the casino asap,  not in 3 years from now like they are planning. That's just me & my opinion.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: MyDogHunts on December 28, 2013, 03:05:20 pm
Parks are not just about what is needed today.  Thank god for Central Park.  I'm sure it wasn't a priority on some scale.  The gathering place is what some visionaries believe.  I'm with them; it's paying forward. The returns will be endless.  It's a good vision.  What is the City % of money to be spent?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on December 28, 2013, 03:13:18 pm
I expect the completed park to blow everyone away.
This is ( Guthrie Green * lafortune ) ^ riverparks.
It will definitely be used.  And everyone will try to take credit for it.

(http://happysimpleton.com/cartoons/2010/12/20101227.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 28, 2013, 03:32:34 pm
Parks are not just about what is needed today.  Thank god for Central Park.  I'm sure it wasn't a priority on some scale.  The gathering place is what some visionaries believe.  I'm with them; it's paying forward. The returns will be endless.  It's a good vision.  What is the City % of money to be spent?
What about the west river park? Why not use that as the "Gathering Place"?? - Think ahead to the future and if you think wrong or future needs change then what, more wasted money? The future people can make their own park when the time or need comes for it. The needs for the future will be best served by the people of the future. The people of 2014 can't plan for the needs of the city 50 or 75 years from now because we don't know what those needs will be.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on December 28, 2013, 04:00:22 pm
What about the west river park? Why not use that as the "Gathering Place"?? - Think ahead to the future and if you think wrong or future needs change then what, more wasted money? The future people can make their own park when the time or need comes for it. The needs for the future will be best served by the people of the future. The people of 2014 can't plan for the needs of the city 50 or 75 years from now because we don't know what those needs will be.

Then stay away from it once completed.  We don't want you there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 28, 2013, 05:28:43 pm
Yeah but the same idea is at work- your  typical city pet projects just to spend taxpayer money, every city seems to have something like that going on, in Cincinnati, Ohio  it's a street car thing,

Looks like a lot of people in Cincinnati disagree with you on whether street cars are a waste of money.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_newslog2009q4.htm#CIN_20091022
http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_cin_2009-11a.htm




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: MyDogHunts on December 28, 2013, 06:22:51 pm
What about the west river park? Why not use that as the "Gathering Place"?? - Think ahead to the future and if you think wrong or future needs change then what, more wasted money? The future people can make their own park when the time or need comes for it. The needs for the future will be best served by the people of the future. The people of 2014 can't plan for the needs of the city 50 or 75 years from now because we don't know what those needs will be.

I never go to the west side and most people... why do I try?  Have you ever planted a tree.  so Central Park was wrong.

Plant a tree then get back to me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on December 28, 2013, 07:30:51 pm
Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I just don't think a "Gathering Place" is something Tulsans will use- it will be a lot of money spent for nothing, -I believe in saving  taxpayer money- there already is a RiverWalk center, A River Casino, the city of  Jenks has a lot going on by the River, the River west park is like a big gathering place right now. Why do the powers that be always seem to have to do something on the River, let it alone and let the people enjoy it as it is. Do we really need more shops, stores, congestion, traffic parking problems, then after that  they want to tear up the road and make that wider, soon the restful quiet and peaceful Riverfront will be nothing more than a noisy commercial mall. BTW in Cincinnati, Ohio there is a big fuss about building a street car, a few weeks ago they claimed the project was dead & buried - a money pit, the city  said they will let the voters decide on the street car issue- now suddenly without any vote of the people the street car is alive and well and new track is being layed in a hurry. No more talk of letting the people vote on it. Who wants a street car and who will use it? The city of Cincinnati has been working on the street car project for years.. Tulsa  has been fussing with the river front and riverfront projects for decades, let the riverfront  alone..   http://www.protransit.com/FAQs/  or another site... http://www.protransit.com

The city isn't building The Gathering Place, Kaiser is and has spent hundreds of millions upgrading the trails and parks along the rest of Riverside to boot.  And they are putting aside an endowment to keep the park maintained in the future. 

I do think LOTS of people will use the park.  If you have seen the detailed model on exhibit you can see that its packed full of all kinds of great features. I was kind of wondering whether the park would be done well or not before the final designer was chosen.  Then after I saw the renderings, I was like "Yea, it's a nice park."  But then when I saw the scale model in person I was quite surprised at all the great, quality features it will have.  Those who know me know that I can be rather particular and have stubbornly high standards and am usually the one pointing out how this or that falls short with our city.  This park is top notch.  Just thinking the other day about how the suburbs are getting to where they are having a few nice things here and there and trying to compete in some areas, but this park lays it down, Boom,"We da big fish in this pond and you can't touch this". This is "The Big City" park, a world class park that even cities larger than us can't help but envy. This tied into an ever improving Riverparks, plus the new Guthrie Green, Central Park, etc. in and near downtown. Niiice.  This will be our generations quality "legacy park" like Woodward Park and Rose Garden were.  Thank you to Mr Kaiser and all the other donors that are making this park happen.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on December 29, 2013, 10:32:05 pm
Does not Tulsa already have those things??  A place for concerts is on the west bank, it sounds like the same thing they have at Jenks- the area is not that large to have tons of shops a museum and the like anyhow- what about parking, parking can be a issue at the 41st street lot. I dunno it does not sound that exciting to me. :-X

You know they took out the amphitheater, right?

This new complex has 600 parking spots, they are not widening riverside, and the complex also has ties into 31st for traffic.

By your argument we have Admiral & Memorial walmart, we should just tear the rest down because it performs it's required duties at least adequately. Also, any stores that do anything remotely similar to walmart should also close for merely daring to cater to a similar audience.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 29, 2013, 11:00:20 pm
You know they took out the amphitheater, right?

This new complex has 600 parking spots, they are not widening riverside, and the complex also has ties into 31st for traffic.

By your argument we have Admiral & Memorial walmart, we should just tear the rest down because it performs it's required duties at least adequately. Also, any stores that do anything remotely similar to walmart should also close for merely daring to cater to a similar audience.

Last time I rode through there a month ago, the amphitheater was still there.  It hasn't been used in years but it's still there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Gaspar on December 30, 2013, 09:54:15 am
Last time I rode through there a month ago, the amphitheater was still there.  It hasn't been used in years but it's still there.

Last time we were there it was still moored off the bank, about half floating. Looked like it was ready to decompose.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 30, 2013, 12:33:53 pm
I wish they would sell it to me. The floating amphitheater is a victim of circumstance. It is in the wrong place, at the wrong time under the wrong management.

A paid for amenity being squandered.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 30, 2013, 01:18:01 pm
I wish they would sell it to me. The floating amphitheater is a victim of circumstance. It is in the wrong place, at the wrong time under the wrong management.

A paid for amenity being squandered.

The stagnant lagoon seemed to be an issue.  Stage lighting also attracted a large number of insects.

Where would you have located it if you could have been grand poobah at the time?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Gaspar on December 30, 2013, 01:22:24 pm
Remember seeing Cheap Trick there a couple of decades ago and having to duck into the bathrooms to get away from the stench.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 30, 2013, 01:52:23 pm
Yes~ I understand Kaiser is paying for it but as history shows sooner or latter taxpayers end up with some expense. IMO it's just more squandered tax  money. The jogging trail improvement was a good thing because the old trails were falling apart & crumbling, and the trails are what most people who come to River Park use so it's clear  that was a needed expense. BTW,  I also heard  that the city wants to rebuild route 66 or make it better- there always has to be some sort of money spending pet project going on be it "Vision-2525" or whatever other pet project comes up. Maybe "The Gathering Place" will turn out to be a good thing and  I hope it does, but I just think it's un-needed, then after the "Gathering Place" is built they will come back with something else to do, "let's build this or do that". As for the comments about Central Park, that was a big chunk of raw land they set aside when NY was young so residents would have someplace to go, I see no connection with that to Tulsa's issues. The West Bank River Park is hosting the Polar Bear Plunge on New Years Day at 1:PM  so it's a popular place for Tulsans. I'm thinking about doing the Polar Bear plunge again this year- I did it last year. The West Bank Park seems fine to me, there is  lots of parking, open areas, shelters, trails, so it's an   great place to  gather, Here's an idea,  why can't Kaiser pump money into that area for improvements more parking, make it bigger- the land is already there? Oh well it's JMO.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on December 30, 2013, 02:48:14 pm
Yes~ I understand Kaiser is paying for it but as history shows sooner or latter taxpayers end up with some expense. IMO it's just more squandered tax  money. The jogging trail improvement was a good thing because the old trails were falling apart & crumbling, and the trails are what most people who come to River Park use so it's clear  that was a needed expense. BTW,  I also heard  that the city wants to rebuild route 66 or make it better- there always has to be some sort of money spending pet project going on be it "Vision-2525" or whatever other pet project comes up. Maybe "The Gathering Place" will turn out to be a good thing and  I hope it does, but I just think it's un-needed, then after the "Gathering Place" is built they will come back with something else to do, "let's build this or do that". As for the comments about Central Park, that was a big chunk of raw land they set aside when NY was young so residents would have someplace to go, I see no connection with that to Tulsa's issues. The West Bank River Park is hosting the Polar Bear Plunge on New Years Day at 1:PM  so it's a popular place for Tulsans. I'm thinking about doing the Polar Bear plunge again this year- I did it last year. The West Bank Park seems fine to me, there is  lots of parking, open areas, shelters, trails, so it's an   great place to  gather, Here's an idea,  why can't Kaiser pump money into that area for improvements more parking, make it bigger- the land is already there? Oh well it's JMO.

Apparently you have never been to NYC Central Park if you think it's only a big chunk of raw land and didn't involve, and still does involve, a lot of public and private money to make it what it is today.  Was in the news this year that another big donor was giving over a hundred million to the park and was touted as the largest donation to a city park in history (apparently they didn't know about Kaisers donations to Tulsa's parks).  Btw, a lot of the Riverparks recent trails improvements were paid for by Kaiser as well, easily to the tune of more than a hundred million.

 
(...then after the "Gathering Place" is built they will come back with something else to do, "let's build this or do that")  So? "they" whoever "they" actually is in this instance, would do that new park or no lol.  And what's this about "un-needed"?  Some may think that Riverparks is "un-needed".


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 30, 2013, 03:17:13 pm
The stagnant lagoon seemed to be an issue.  Stage lighting also attracted a large number of insects.

Where would you have located it if you could have been grand poobah at the time?

No use looking back. I did not have the knowledge of the area I do now. I can't speak for what constraints and beliefs they were operating under to place it there. I can say the way they did it sealed its fate. They created a lagoon with no moving water, did not control for varying water flows (later added a useless drain pipe on the north end) and then placed unduly harsh restrictions on its best use which was for concerts. Add in a parking lot that was hard to reach and bordered against an active railroad while not holding on to the land south of it allowing a concrete plant to move in and you just have to laugh at their naivete.

Now I would insist that it be moveable with anchoring spots along the two mile stretch of lake. If you know anyone, suggest they sell it to me cheap. Working with local artists who have seen the magnificent uses in other parts of the world for these platforms, I'll make it an attraction.

But they won't, they wouldn't allow its best uses without over regulating it and it would be yet another fiasco. Because of that I would move it upstream or downstream away from city and RPA efforts at control.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 30, 2013, 03:22:51 pm

The jogging trail improvement was a good thing because the old trails were falling apart & crumbling, and the trails are what most people who come to River Park use so it's clear  that was a needed expense.


You keep saying this. Did it ever occur to you that the reason most people came to the park to use the trails was because THAT was all that was offered at the park for decades! And the only paths available? Once they added a kiddie park at 41st it was busy too. A new restaurant? Then it was busy. People use what is available to them.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 30, 2013, 03:50:10 pm
No use looking back. I did not have the knowledge of the area I do now. I can't speak for what constraints and beliefs they were operating under to place it there. I can say the way they did it sealed its fate. They created a lagoon with no moving water, did not control for varying water flows (later added a useless drain pipe on the north end) and then placed unduly harsh restrictions on its best use which was for concerts. Add in a parking lot that was hard to reach and bordered against an active railroad while not holding on to the land south of it allowing a concrete plant to move in and you just have to laugh at their naivete.

Now I would insist that it be moveable with anchoring spots along the two mile stretch of lake. If you know anyone, suggest they sell it to me cheap. Working with local artists who have seen the magnificent uses in other parts of the world for these platforms, I'll make it an attraction.

But they won't, they wouldn't allow its best uses without over regulating it and it would be yet another fiasco. Because of that I would move it upstream or downstream away from city and RPA efforts at control.



Cool concept. Poorly executed.

I wonder if the Creeks could make use of it down south at either of their complexes.  Meh, probably cheaper to build one there than to try and transport this one as I don’t see how it would ever make it over the LWD.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on December 30, 2013, 04:00:59 pm
The stagnant lagoon seemed to be an issue.  Stage lighting also attracted a large number of insects.

Where would you have located it if you could have been grand poobah at the time?

On Brady, between Boston and Cincinnati.

 ;)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on December 30, 2013, 04:20:15 pm
No use looking back. I did not have the knowledge of the area I do now. I can't speak for what constraints and beliefs they were operating under to place it there. I can say the way they did it sealed its fate. They created a lagoon with no moving water, did not control for varying water flows (later added a useless drain pipe on the north end) and then placed unduly harsh restrictions on its best use which was for concerts. Add in a parking lot that was hard to reach and bordered against an active railroad while not holding on to the land south of it allowing a concrete plant to move in and you just have to laugh at their naivete.

Before the Gathering Place was proposed I always thought the concrete plant and adjacent festival park could be repurposed into a larger riverfront park with a lot of the same things that will be going in by the pedestrian bridge (thanks to Kaiser).  I still think an amphitheatre would be nice to have in this location, but on terraced land facing northeast toward downtown.  This is something Gathering Place will not have, nor will it likely have the large festivals like Oktoberfest that River West has with its open space.  So there is still a need, IMO, for a larger River West Park that could include the concrete plant site.  Similar to how Austin, TX has Auditorium Shores with an amphitheatre and arts center with festival open space across the river from downtown, and Zilker Park further down (which would be similar to what the Gathering Place will be).  

Auditorium Shores site plan with amphitheatre and dog park
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/715/img/photos/2013/05/02/eb/d7/web-050313-auditorium-shores.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 30, 2013, 04:41:36 pm
Cool concept. Poorly executed.

....... Meh, probably cheaper to build one there than to try and transport this one as I don’t see how it would ever make it over the LWD.

The bridges are the real constraint. The ones north I could do, but not sure about the 23rd street bridge and the LWD. Would have to be taken down to two pieces and floated at high water or moved by flatbed. Thats why it is practically valueless in its present state. Still could be cool.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 30, 2013, 04:46:50 pm
Before the Gathering Place was proposed I always thought the concrete plant and adjacent festival park could be repurposed into a larger riverfront park with a lot of the same things that will be going in by the pedestrian bridge (thanks to Kaiser).  I still think an amphitheatre would be nice to have in this location, but on terraced land facing northeast toward downtown.  This is something Gathering Place will not have, nor will it likely have the large festivals like Oktoberfest that River West has with its open space.  So there is still a need, IMO, for a larger River West Park that could include the concrete plant site.  Similar to how Austin, TX has Auditorium Shores with an amphitheatre and arts center with festival open space across the river from downtown, and Zilker Park further down (which would be similar to what the Gathering Place will be).  

Auditorium Shores site plan with amphitheatre and dog park
(http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/715/img/photos/2013/05/02/eb/d7/web-050313-auditorium-shores.jpg)

I think you are probably correct in your surmisals. West bank of the river will always be a tough nut to market though. Refineries, railroads, concrete plants, polluted subsurface and nearby neighborhoods that hate large groups of people nearby. Bring those Austin planners up here!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 30, 2013, 07:05:36 pm
I think you are probably correct in your surmisals. West bank of the river will always be a tough nut to market though. Refineries, railroads, concrete plants, polluted subsurface and nearby neighborhoods that hate large groups of people nearby. Bring those Austin planners up here!

One thing neglected by SXSW, is that concrete plant is available for a golden handshake of $50 to $60 million, at least it was in 2007.  That was what was budgeted in the river tax proposal for that parcel, if I recall correctly.  Sorry, there's not a single parcel anywhere in Tulsa worth that sort of money, especially something to become a public space. Views aside, that's nothing more than grossly en-richening one individual or company on the backs of taxpayers.  I'm quite certain the city of Jenks didn't pay anywhere near that sort of ransom for the old McMichael Concrete property south of the Jenks bridge where the Aquarium and other assets now rest.   


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: charky on December 30, 2013, 08:10:05 pm
Well this runner and avid user of the trail system can't wait for the "Gathering Place".  Based on the drawings...I'm assuming you'll be able to peal off the main trail and run through the new park(s)...then connect back with the trails. Looks like a nice change of scenery to me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on December 30, 2013, 10:00:33 pm
One thing neglected by SXSW, is that concrete plant is available for a golden handshake of $50 to $60 million, at least it was in 2007.  That was what was budgeted in the river tax proposal for that parcel, if I recall correctly.  Sorry, there's not a single parcel anywhere in Tulsa worth that sort of money, especially something to become a public space. Views aside, that's nothing more than grossly en-richening one individual or company on the backs of taxpayers.  I'm quite certain the city of Jenks didn't pay anywhere near that sort of ransom for the old McMichael Concrete property south of the Jenks bridge where the Aquarium and other assets now rest.   

Sadly if the owner still wants that kind of price it would have to be a larger public project, or funded by Kaiser.  I could see the city doing another river tax vote in the next couple years and it could include funds to develop a larger River West Park.  OKC spent millions in acquisition costs for its new downtown park so it is not unprecedented. 

Hopefully any kind of larger investment in a public park by the river on the west bank eventually includes a redevelopment of the adjacent government housing.  Many U.S. cities have torn down their sprawling Section 8 apartments and redeveloped them into actual neighborhoods with a mix of houses and apartments with a restored street grid.  The west bank will never be a popular area but it could be nicer than what is there now, and the area along 23rd is a gateway into the city off 75.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on December 31, 2013, 07:17:05 am
Yeah, I can't wait for this. All of my friends are excited too. Parks are awesome, every great city has them.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 31, 2013, 08:35:39 am
Sadly if the owner still wants that kind of price it would have to be a larger public project, or funded by Kaiser.  I could see the city doing another river tax vote in the next couple years and it could include funds to develop a larger River West Park.  OKC spent millions in acquisition costs for its new downtown park so it is not unprecedented. 

Hopefully any kind of larger investment in a public park by the river on the west bank eventually includes a redevelopment of the adjacent government housing.  Many U.S. cities have torn down their sprawling Section 8 apartments and redeveloped them into actual neighborhoods with a mix of houses and apartments with a restored street grid.  The west bank will never be a popular area but it could be nicer than what is there now, and the area along 23rd is a gateway into the city off 75.

The price of that parcel was one of the image problems the ’07 tax proposal faced.  It appeared someone was getting greased pretty good when that parcel alone accounted for nearly 20% of the public part of the expenditures for the project.  I don’t see the public housing going away any time soon considering they’ve done extensive rehab on the apartments north of 23rd, and they are planning on building more rabbit hutches apartments in the Riverwest Park auxiliary parking lot on the west side of 23rd. 

IIRC, as a part of the new City Hall bargain, the city was supposed to divest of certain properties and consolidate which would have vacated the COT M & E center to the south of 23rd.  Turns out, city kept that and I believe the Osage Tribe now owns or occupies the old Downtown Airpark which was where the city was supposed to consolidate their M & E functions...if memory serves me correctly.  I’ve had a Marshall’s or three in that time.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 31, 2013, 10:45:59 am
To me this just seems like more frills and sqandered money. I would rather have a 1 penny or so cut in sales tax and forget about all those projects. It looks like they will have to riase sales taxes again, what's next a "Vision 3"? I lived in 5 states and seen so much waste on the local level with pet projects, one example is the Bob Kerry Pedestrian bridge in Omaha connecting Nebraska to Iowa built in 2008, yes the bridge was needed and it connected the Omaha network of jog-bike trails to the trails in Iowa. What they did was build and design the most fancy frilly bridge they could, for millions of dollars more than what a simple straight brige would of cost. They could of made a simple bridge and put the millions of dollars saved in the bank for a rainy day or for other needed projects, or better yet cut the tax rate. Every city seems to have all sorts of pet projects that no one really needs or wants yet they insist on building them.. http://www.councilbluffs-ia.gov/index.aspx?NID=260


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 31, 2013, 11:33:14 am
To me this just seems like more frills and sqandered money. I would rather have a 1 penny or so cut in sales tax and forget about all those projects. It looks like they will have to riase sales taxes again, what's next a "Vision 3"? I lived in 5 states and seen so much waste on the local level with pet projects, one example is the Bob Kerry Pedestrian bridge in Omaha connecting Nebraska to Iowa built in 2008, yes the bridge was needed and it connected the Omaha network of jog-bike trails to the trails in Iowa. What they did was build and design the most fancy frilly bridge they could, for millions of dollars more than what a simple straight brige would of cost. They could of made a simple bridge and put the millions of dollars saved in the bank for a rainy day or for other needed projects, or better yet cut the tax rate. Every city seems to have all sorts of pet projects that no one really needs or wants yet they insist on building them.. http://www.councilbluffs-ia.gov/index.aspx?NID=260

How is it “squandered money” if the Kaiser Foundation is funding the project and paying for future maintenance?

Cities have employed iconic architecture into their functional infrastructure needs for many millennia it’s one of the things that gives each city their own identity and helps attract others to visit the city. 

What is the function of the St. Louis Arch?  Nothing other than a tourist destination.  What is the function of the Washington Monument? Nothing other than a tourist destination.  Tourism helps bring outside dollars into communities to help build the tax base without making more demands on the amount of taxes needed from the local citizens to keep the city running. 



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 31, 2013, 11:37:28 am
To me this just seems like more frills and sqandered money. I would rather have a 1 penny or so cut in sales tax and forget about all those projects.

Did you grow up in a Soviet Block country during the cold war?  Nostalgic for the good old days?



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on December 31, 2013, 12:14:37 pm
One thing neglected by SXSW, is that concrete plant is available for a golden handshake of $50 to $60 million, at least it was in 2007.

Tulsa has played the Eminent Domain card for much less, like when Albertsons wanted to demolish a neighborhood to build a short-lived store at 15th & Lewis.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on December 31, 2013, 01:11:54 pm
To me this just seems like more frills and sqandered money. I would rather have a 1 penny or so cut in sales tax and forget about all those projects...

What projects?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 31, 2013, 02:15:04 pm
Tulsa has played the Eminent Domain card for much less, like when Albertsons wanted to demolish a neighborhood to build a short-lived store at 15th & Lewis.

Short-lived?  I think Albertson’s was in that space for 10 years before they ceased operations in Tulsa.  Reasor’s still runs a store there.  IIRC, what’s there now is better than the remaining pocket neighborhood that was there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 31, 2013, 02:28:27 pm
What projects?
Other Projects like  the Route 66 rebuilding project they are just now starting to talk about- what about Zink Lake or more dams on the Arkansas River to make a new lake or a Island in the River? The rebuilding River Side Drive and  Things like that to name a few. We have a very high sales tax as it is. Sure Kaiser may pay for The Gathering Place, but trust me it'll still end up costing taxpayers money in the end (plus maintenance of the area). Maybe it's just me and my old fashioned ways but I'd rather have a cut in taxes instead of more city frills, cut our sales tax by a penny and please no Vision 3 with another hike in sales tax or a extension of current tax hikes when they expire. Columbus, Ohio had  issues with stadiums in the 1990's  the voters kept turning it down so they just went ahead and built a new stadium and a new arena anyhow. They also knocked down a perfectly good old time stadium ball park  so they can build another one. The city of Columbus, Ohio also has a 2% Income Tax, yep Ohio residents pay federal income taxes, state income taxes and city income taxes and in some case they even have school income taxes even though prop. taxes are sky high. I lived in 5 states and seen it all.  If they build the Gathering Place I hope it all works out, but I'm just no big fan of doing it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 31, 2013, 02:30:34 pm
Short-lived?  I think Albertson’s was in that space for 10 years before they ceased operations in Tulsa.  Reasor’s still runs a store there.  IIRC, what’s there now is better than the remaining pocket neighborhood that was there.
No doubt, beats more neighborhood blight and decay.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on December 31, 2013, 02:32:22 pm
Yeah, I can't wait for this. All of my friends are excited too. Parks are awesome, every great city has them.
Yep, Tulsa has plenty of fine parks, parks of all sizes from big to small neighborhood parks.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 31, 2013, 02:51:08 pm
What projects?

Any project that doesn't benefit kimchi's  little myopic world is not worth doing.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 31, 2013, 02:53:10 pm
Any project that doesn't benefit kimchi's  little myopic world is not worth doing.

Uncle Kimchi...brilliant!!!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on December 31, 2013, 03:04:37 pm
Other Projects like  the Route 66 rebuilding project they are just now starting to talk about- what about Zink Lake or more dams on the Arkansas River to make a new lake or a Island in the River? The rebuilding River Side Drive and  Things like that to name a few. We have a very high sales tax as it is. Sure Kaiser may pay for The Gathering Place, but trust me it'll still end up costing taxpayers money in the end (plus maintenance of the area). Maybe it's just me and my old fashioned ways but I'd rather have a cut in taxes instead of more city frills, cut our sales tax by a penny and please no Vision 3 with another hike in sales tax or a extension of current tax hikes when they expire. Columbus, Ohio had  issues with stadiums in the 1990's  the voters kept turning it down so they just went ahead and built a new stadium and a new arena anyhow. They also knocked down a perfectly good old time stadium ball park  so they can build another one. The city of Columbus, Ohio also has a 2% Income Tax, yep Ohio residents pay federal income taxes, state income taxes and city income taxes and in some case they even have school income taxes even though prop. taxes are sky high. I lived in 5 states and seen it all.  If they build the Gathering Place I hope it all works out, but I'm just no big fan of doing it.

He's seen it all and we should trust him. Really.  ::)

Its not what you know Sauer, that hurts you. Its what you don't know that you don't know.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 31, 2013, 03:18:31 pm
The West Bank River Park is hosting the Polar Bear Plunge on New Years Day at 1:PM  so it's a popular place for Tulsans. I'm thinking about doing the Polar Bear plunge again this year- I did it last year. The West Bank Park seems fine to me, there is  lots of parking, open areas, shelters, trails, so it's an   great place to  gather, Here's an idea,  why can't Kaiser pump money into that area for improvements more parking, make it bigger- the land is already there? Oh well it's JMO.

Uncle Kimchi, here's the event you need to participate in and I hope you come in First!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSqkdcT25ss[/youtube]


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on December 31, 2013, 04:06:21 pm
Yep, Tulsa has plenty of fine parks, parks of all sizes from big to small neighborhood parks.

And adding more is just fine in my book.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on January 04, 2014, 02:43:12 pm
Any project that doesn't benefit kimchi's  little myopic world is not worth doing.
Any Section 8 project is always worth doing. :)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on January 04, 2014, 02:44:20 pm
What projects?
The Projects on Peoria & 61st. :)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on January 04, 2014, 04:05:31 pm
The Projects on Peoria & 61st. :)

Myopic.  Yep.  Did your parents have any children that lived?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on January 09, 2014, 04:05:39 pm
Low water dams by 2021.  Watcha got Kirby?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on January 10, 2014, 12:15:59 pm
Water in the River by 2021?

http://kwgs.com/post/water-river-2021 (http://kwgs.com/post/water-river-2021)

Quote
If all goes according to plan, Tulsans could see water in the Arkansas River — permanently — by mid-2021.

A big project on the river is closer to getting started, as improvements to Zink Dam should get permit approval from the Army Corps of Engineers in the next two weeks.

Vision 2025 Program Director Kirby Crowe said Corps approval is important for more than that one project.

"River Parks has accepted all the permit conditions," Crowe said. "It's been nearly a two-year process with the regulatory agencies during the permitting time, and this sets the example for all of the low-water dam projects."

The permit covers improvements to the dam itself and changes to the shoreline that are part of the Gathering Place park design.

Approval of the Zink project may open the door to low-water dams in Sand Springs and at the Tulsa-Jenks border. Altogether, they mean water in the river all the time.

Crowe said the Corps will have to approve the projects separately and as a whole, however.

"There will also be an Environmental Impact Statement document done, a NEPA [National Environmental Policy Act] document that addresses the cumulative impacts of all of the projects," Crowe said.

The total estimated cost of the dams was $163.5 million in 2010. Tulsa City Council's River Infrastructure Task Force has asked for updated cost estimates.

At its second meeting, held Thursday, the task force went over a 2012 report from the River Development Task Force. Architect Herb Fritz was chair of the 2012 task force. He said the city has always been good at planning river development but hasn't always been able to follow through.

"There were some opportunities to do some things many, many years ago that certainly would have helped us in terms of development now," Fritz said. "Right now, we have to go back and rebuild a dam that was built in the '70s. But it's been too long. Something else should have been done, maybe in the '90s."

Fritz said Tulsa can still implement many of the 2012 task force's ideas and take full advantage of the Arkansas River.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on January 14, 2014, 02:09:12 pm
My big issue with the gathering place is developments like that and others like the river dams always end up with  more taxes and turn into a perpetual thing that never ends. When  A "Temp" tax is about to expire they always hurry up and ask for a extention then another extention on the extention, til the temp tax finally is made perm. They build one thing thing and want to do more or go back to the first thing and make it better. This all works out to be a perpetual thing. I'd like to keep most of the RiverSide area undeveloped and wild in it's natural state with nothing more than a trail running thru it so people can see the natural wildlife in action. Why build up and choke out the river area?  Besides River Parks in it's natural state left alone costs no tax  money and that's a good thing.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on January 14, 2014, 03:20:15 pm
My big issue with thye gathering place is developments like that and others like the river dams always end up with  more taxes and turn into a perpetual thing that never ends. When  A "Temp" tax is about to expire they always hurry up and ask for a extention then another extention on the extention, til the temp tax finally is made perm. They build one thing thing and want to do more or go back to the first thing and make it better. This all works out to be a perpetual thing. I'd like to keep most of the RiverSide area undeveloped and wild in it's natural state with nothing more than a trail running thru it so people can see the natural wildlife in action. Why build up and choke out the river area?  Besides River Parks in it's natural state left alone costs no tax  money and that's a good thing.

What part of “privately funded” and future maintenance costs being set aside are you struggling with?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on January 14, 2014, 04:07:15 pm
  Besides River Parks in it's natural state left alone costs no tax  money and that's a good thing.

Do you ever tire of being wrong?

Riverparks gets funding from both the City and the County. This year the City paid in $737,000 and the County paid in $635,000. That is on top of funds used to maintain the levees, provide enforcement duties, and using bond issued funds for dam repairs this year.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on January 14, 2014, 05:59:17 pm
My big issue with thye gathering place is developments like that and others like the river dams always end up with  more taxes and turn into a perpetual thing that never ends. When  A "Temp" tax is about to expire they always hurry up and ask for a extention then another extention on the extention, til the temp tax finally is made perm. They build one thing thing and want to do more or go back to the first thing and make it better. This all works out to be a perpetual thing. I'd like to keep most of the RiverSide area undeveloped and wild in it's natural state with nothing more than a trail running thru it so people can see the natural wildlife in action. Why build up and choke out the river area?  Besides River Parks in it's natural state left alone costs no tax  money and that's a good thing.

Because if the river were in it's natural state midtown would flood every other year. Natural has long past.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on January 14, 2014, 08:13:55 pm
The article is confusing, all three dams will be finished by 2021?  They are working on Zink Dam right now. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on January 14, 2014, 10:13:04 pm
The article is confusing, all three dams will be finished by 2021?  They are working on Zink Dam right now.  

My understanding (through other sources) is that the Zink dam is the only dam that is the actual topic of the "permanent water in the river" and that the "new" Zink dam should be done by 2021.  I also think they are intentionally keeping things vague, but not sure why?  My first guess is that they hope they can begin to shift the conversation just enough, through some clever wording (this is step one in the "pivot"), to make it a positive for them.  Currently the Zink dam leaks, thus is why Zink Lake is not being counted as "permanently" full of water.  Once the new dam that is 3' higher is in place… then we will permanently have water in the river! Voila!  Any assumptions of other dams in the river exist, via the vagueness, through the hopes and imaginations of the public filling in intentional blanks, not by what is actually being said or done. Get it?  And even then, I am not sure they have all the funding, in place, right now for even the Zink Dam, but they do have to get it before the permit they now have to build the 1 new Zink dam expires. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 14, 2014, 11:56:43 pm
My big issue


No, Uncle Kimchi, you don't have issues, you volumes.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on January 15, 2014, 01:44:34 pm
Another pledge:
$10 from Chapman foundation
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/chapman-foundation-giving-million-to-gathering-place/article_186bc3a8-7e16-11e3-8a93-0019bb30f31a.html

not sure how that translate to future taxpayer burden


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Vision 2025 on January 15, 2014, 05:38:00 pm
Low water dams by 2021.  Watcha got Kirby?
Sorry for the delay, that is the schedule forward if construction funding is provided.  Presently the 404 permit for Zink has been accepted (it could be completed 3 years form going forward) and the environmental permitting for three other locations (Sand Springs, S. Tulsa/Jenks, and Bixby) are set to proceeding in a programmatic EIS methodology.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on January 16, 2014, 12:14:16 am
Sorry for the delay, that is the schedule forward if construction funding is provided.  Presently the 404 permit for Zink has been accepted (it could be completed 3 years form going forward) and the environmental permitting for three other locations (Sand Springs, S. Tulsa/Jenks, and Bixby) are set to proceeding in a programmatic EIS methodology.

So 3 years from permit approval that was just granted for Zink Dam = 2017.  This is the project to raise the dam 3 feet, fix leaks/broken gates and change the design on the south side to make it safer?

And with permitting and construction (and good luck) the other dams could be built by 2021?  That would be pretty remarkable if that happens.

Is the plan to still have the Sand Springs dam be higher to better regulate flow into the "lakes" below?  I imagine the Jenks dam will be the first new dam built because of the Creeks big investments in that area.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Vision 2025 on January 16, 2014, 01:41:41 pm
So 3 years from permit approval that was just granted for Zink Dam = 2017.  This is the project to raise the dam 3 feet, fix leaks/broken gates and change the design on the south side to make it safer?

And with permitting and construction (and good luck) the other dams could be built by 2021?  That would be pretty remarkable if that happens.

Is the plan to still have the Sand Springs dam be higher to better regulate flow into the "lakes" below?  I imagine the Jenks dam will be the first new dam built because of the Creeks big investments in that area.
Yes, you have the overall project concept down. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on January 18, 2014, 10:12:14 am
What part of “privately funded” and future maintenance costs being set aside are you struggling with?
Just the part where they keep asking taxpayers for more money. Good- it's privately funded, that means we can roll back the last penny sales tax increase then.... Now they talk about a Juvie Detention center- heck, use and  expand an old school for it, make it into a work camp not a rec center for our violent youth. Maybe if the kids worked all day they will be to tired to cause trouble and it'll get them ready for the real world, use what is already there. I'm against building a new juvie detention center. But what do I know- looks like another penny sales tax coming down the pike to coddle our violent youth in a modern luxuery center-- I can see it now  big  60" TV sets scattered all over the fancy new building...  Heck put in a olympic size swimming pool, tennis courts, a big gym and a game room with free smart phones to all the inmates. If I was king the juvies would be toiling in a work camp sleeping on cots doing chores.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on January 18, 2014, 10:15:58 am
Just the part where they keep asking taxpayers for more money. Good- it's privately funded, that means we can roll back the last penny sales tax increase then.... Now they talk about a Juvie Detention center- heck, use and  expand an old school for it, make it into a work camp not a rec center for our violent youth. Maybe if the kids worked all day they will be to tired to cause trouble and it'll get them ready for the real world. I'm against that. But what do I know looks like another penny sales tax coming down the pike to coddle our violent youth in a modern center..

Derp derp


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on January 18, 2014, 10:52:24 am
Just the part where they keep asking taxpayers for more money. Good- it's privately funded, that means we can roll back the last penny sales tax increase then.... Now they talk about a Juvie Detention center- heck, use and  expand an old school for it, make it into a work camp not a rec center for our violent youth. Maybe if the kids worked all day they will be to tired to cause trouble and it'll get them ready for the real world, use what is already there. I'm against building a new juvie detention center. But what do I know- looks like another penny sales tax coming down the pike to coddle our violent youth in a modern luxuery center-- I can see it now  big  60" TV sets scattered all over the fancy new building...  Heck put in a olympic size swimming pool, tennis courts, a big gym and a game room with free smart phones to all the inmates. If I was king the juvies would be toiling in a work camp sleeping on cots doing chores.

You aren't real. No one can be that dense. You have been pulling a scam on us haven't you?

In all honesty, it was a pretty good prank but is wearing thin.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 19, 2014, 04:27:39 am
Just the part where they keep asking taxpayers for more money. Good- it's privately funded, that means we can roll back the last penny sales tax increase then.... Now they talk about a Juvie Detention center- heck, use and  expand an old school for it, make it into a work camp not a rec center for our violent youth. Maybe if the kids worked all day they will be to tired to cause trouble and it'll get them ready for the real world, use what is already there. I'm against building a new juvie detention center. But what do I know- looks like another penny sales tax coming down the pike to coddle our violent youth in a modern luxuery center-- I can see it now  big  60" TV sets scattered all over the fancy new building...  Heck put in a olympic size swimming pool, tennis courts, a big gym and a game room with free smart phones to all the inmates. If I was king the juvies would be toiling in a work camp sleeping on cots doing chores.

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/BSmeter_zps1ac68f9a.gif)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on January 19, 2014, 09:14:16 am
I agree.
the Gathering Place should not have a juvie center!
Who's idea was that?!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on January 19, 2014, 11:10:07 am
If he is real, his posts are the result of simplification of well thought out complaints regarding social and political issues.

You can argue with a Rand, a Cuomo or their educated derivatives even though there may be error in their logic. They are idealogues, mostly untouched by the reality of their platitudes. But by the time that logic gets to middle school mentalities as reflected in bumper stickers and forums, its just frightening to see how bastardized the thinking becomes.

America. Love it or leave it.
Scare a liberal. Offer them a job.
Welfare queens
Liberal media
The west wasn't won with a registered gun

Its easier to let others think for you, then distill it into basic human fundamentals (greed, selfishness, etc)

BTW, the Gathering Place doesn't offer much of interest to me. Neither does road building in far south Tulsa. However, I am not ignorant of their importance to others in the city and how they are worthy of support by all taxpayers. One of the things that differentiates a city from a town, is its ability to serve the interests of all of its members and plan for its future citizens.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on January 31, 2014, 10:41:19 pm
http://www.newson6.com/story/24606155/oklahomas-blair-mansion-to-be-demolished-saturday

Judging from the comments, everyone is thrilled

here's a dandy:
Quote
We go out of state or out of town to see historical places. Also when we do the cities roads look so much better. We went to Dallas and their whole city looks like 71st. Everything is nice and neat.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on February 01, 2014, 10:45:12 am
What we just lost:

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/4e/74ed33a1-b590-5014-9fd0-d99cef807046/52ecab1778519.image.jpg)

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/3c/a3cabf9f-5bbb-5a94-9361-496a93fee4e6/52ecab15dd87e.image.jpg)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/blair-mansion-demolition-begins/article_17a17c6c-8b2a-11e3-83fc-0017a43b2370.html
Seems like this was a bit of a planning failure...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 01, 2014, 11:19:34 am
What we just lost:

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/4e/74ed33a1-b590-5014-9fd0-d99cef807046/52ecab1778519.image.jpg)

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/3c/a3cabf9f-5bbb-5a94-9361-496a93fee4e6/52ecab15dd87e.image.jpg)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/blair-mansion-demolition-begins/article_17a17c6c-8b2a-11e3-83fc-0017a43b2370.html
Seems like this was a bit of a planning failure...

I never got to enjoy the view from the proximity of that porch, but I will now.  I'm finding it hard to call it anything but a gain.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 01, 2014, 12:12:58 pm
The running path that runs behind it often offers a similar view, especially during the winter. Loved seeing the horses, trees and the pastoral setting with the sun setting in the cold, clear January evenings. I'll miss the quiet solitude for reflection that it provided. Nothing good ever lasts forever. The Gathering will be another generation's vision.

Anyone remember when it was announced that the property had sold but was to remain occupied by the owner till his death? Even so that it would be many years till the land would be developed. Then it was announced the building would be moved but not for many years. Then it was rumored to be a racist monument to the Civil War. That didn't stick, so now its announced that it will be demolished. Now it is just another vacant lot awaiting conversion to sugarplums dancing.

Could have been part of the new park as an historical element, a museum or a restaurant.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on February 01, 2014, 12:54:58 pm
Could have been part of the new park as an historical element, a museum or a restaurant.

Was the decision of the previous owner, not the new park. He owned the buildings on the land. He found it was easier to tear down and build anew.

While it was nice, it wasn't that old, nothing historic happened there, and if it had been built elsewhere, few would even notice it getting torn down. It was made to look like an old house and had a pretty awesome front yard. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on February 01, 2014, 04:24:45 pm
Could have been part of the new park as an historical element, a museum or a restaurant.

+1
The owner stated he was unable to find another location for the house,
and we're in a hurry.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 01, 2014, 04:33:09 pm
How old does it have to be to be relevant? I don't know when it was built but it has been well known as a landmark there for at least 60 years and fits the neighborhood. But enough rationalizing. The new owners of the land could have bought the house if they found it worthy. The existing owner would have sold it cheap rather than have to pay for its demolition.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on February 01, 2014, 06:02:08 pm
Onward and upward.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 02, 2014, 09:39:30 am
The Gathering will be another generation's vision.



Ironically the vision of a gentleman older than yourself. Or at least he shares the vision.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 02, 2014, 10:16:07 am
I surmise its more the foundation's vision than his though he probably has strong influence. My understanding is that part of the rules of the money being sheltered from taxes is that you don't direct the foundation.

Its ironic to me that yet another landmark has failed to be preserved in favor of demolition and rebuilding. "....an organization focused on intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa". Well, at least its a revitalization of sorts.

Sure looks a lot like the relatively unused Central Park development. Photographers will love it.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 02, 2014, 02:04:47 pm
I surmise its more the foundation's vision than his though he probably has strong influence. My understanding is that part of the rules of the money being sheltered from taxes is that you don't direct the foundation.

Its ironic to me that yet another landmark has failed to be preserved in favor of demolition and rebuilding. "....an organization focused on intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa". Well, at least its a revitalization of sorts.

Sure looks a lot like the relatively unused Central Park development. Photographers will love it.



Simple day-to-day operation of the foundation probably doesn't require much input from Mr. Kaiser.  I suspect he is consulted before major projects such as this as it is his name which becomes associated with it.

Central Park doesn't have a high walkability factor attached to it.  It's in an odd area bordered by the Pearl to the east which is still in somewhat of an identity crisis and an expressway which blocks it from downtown.  To me, the design of it was a tasteful way to mask the fact it's a flood retention pond, not a recreation area.

The gathering place will see high utilization from it's proximity to the already popular river trails and the pedestrian bridge.  Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness Area has really exploded the last few years due to the completion of the west bank trail to 71st as well as creating a large parking area with nice restrooms and an inviting trail head.  If you build it near the river, they will come.

The Blair Mansion had a very low historical value to the city.  It was built around 1960 as a copy of an 1850 plantation home according to occasional TNF poster and Tulsa architectural historian Shane Hood.  It's significance is nowhere near that of the grand oil mansions of the 1920's and 1930's.  Sure, it was a landmark people remember seeing as they drove along Riverside, other than that, it's a property largely cloaked in mystery which was never publicly accessible.  I suspect in 20 years most Tulsans will have forgotten what used to be on that homesite. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on February 02, 2014, 03:40:43 pm
Central Park also suffers from a lack of programming.  That is the element that has made Guthrie Green so popular, and will make the Gathering Place even more so if done right.  I do think Central Park will be more utilized as the Pearl develops.  I think Veterans Park could be redeveloped into something similar with the same creek (Elm Creek) running through it, albeit underground in a tunnel through Veterans Park.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: CharlieSheen on February 02, 2014, 03:50:14 pm
Houses don't need to be preserved because a lot of people drove past them a lot.  I have faith in their plan for the park and if it was a make or break for the park they can rebuild it. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 03, 2014, 09:04:57 am
Having lived here in the 1970's and watching downtown and near downtown be disassembled and left vacant for decades while planners and the public were fed the same watercolor drawings of vibrant malls, water features and throngs of visitors you'll have to excuse my skepticism. For decades I've watched historical buildings be flattened by OSU for no reason (to wit Tulsa's first firestation that housed horse drawn firetrucks), countless river development scenarios, watched TCC cannibalize potential in favor of suburban style parking and watched public school buildings left to deteriorate and then be razed. Cherry Street is half vacant, Pearl has been given over, and imo Brady may be over hyped.

 And I have to tell you, the same remarks were made during those debacles. Things like, "these aren't historically important", "these are pos structures", "this is what the public wants", "Its private property and they can do what they want", "no one will ride mass transit or trains". And many of them were accurate. Nonetheless, these buildings were the character of the city and now our character is flat parking lots, vacant land and pretty watercolor renderings.  I am glad you all have faith in these "leaders" and that it all works out.

The truth is this city cannot support its current division by geography, income, race and employment. We simply don't have an affluent, growing population and that means we will continue to devour one area after another as we try to attract and nurture the coveted young, tech brats who have little appreciation for history, character, quality construction and legacy just like we did the yuppies before them. The pie simply isn't getting bigger and we turn on each other.

I am out of the mainstream of the community and am aggressively searching for a more palatable city that follows through on its promises and values its heritage in practice rather than in library photo collections. I know that won't bother many of you (Guido...) but it should. I committed for four decades as an adult, raised a family and contributed my share and now I feel like none of it is much respected. Many of my friends feel the same way and have given up on any real growth politically and economically here. We'll serve out our time here, make money here, we'll capitalize on our wise decisions in our youth here, but its not our city anymore.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 03, 2014, 09:26:26 am
Having lived here in the 1970's and watching downtown and near downtown be disassembled and left vacant for decades while planners and the public were fed the same watercolor drawings of vibrant malls, water features and throngs of visitors you'll have to excuse my skepticism. For decades I've watched historical buildings be flattened by OSU for no reason (to wit Tulsa's first firestation that housed horse drawn firetrucks), countless river development scenarios, watched TCC cannibalize potential in favor of suburban style parking and watched public school buildings left to deteriorate and then be razed. Cherry Street is half vacant, Pearl has been given over, and imo Brady may be over hyped.

 And I have to tell you, the same remarks were made during those debacles. Things like, "these aren't historically important", "these are pos structures", "this is what the public wants", "Its private property and they can do what they want", "no one will ride mass transit or trains". And many of them were accurate. Nonetheless, these buildings were the character of the city and now our character is flat parking lots, vacant land and pretty watercolor renderings.  I am glad you all have faith in these "leaders" and that it all works out.

The truth is this city cannot support its current division by geography, income, race and employment. We simply don't have an affluent, growing population and that means we will continue to devour one area after another as we try to attract and nurture the coveted young, tech brats who have little appreciation for history, character, quality construction and legacy just like we did the yuppies before them. The pie simply isn't getting bigger and we turn on each other.

I am out of the mainstream of the community and am aggressively searching for a more palatable city that follows through on its promises and values its heritage in practice rather than in library photo collections. I know that won't bother many of you (Guido...) but it should. I committed for four decades as an adult, raised a family and contributed my share and now I feel like none of it is much respected. Many of my friends feel the same way and have given up on any real growth politically and economically here. We'll serve out our time here, make money here, we'll capitalize on our wise decisions in our youth here, but its not our city anymore.

I’m just old enough to remember Betsy Horowitz’s fight against the expressway extension through Maple Ridge.  I worked downtown when it was a ghost town relative to today. Like you, I’ve seen many landmarks pulled down and turned into one parking lot after another.

It's a shame your paradigm has become so tarnished.  If you would have said the same thing in the early 1990’s, I would have bought in.  It almost seems like your mind is stuck in that time period as that would have been an accurate reflection of that point in time, not 2014.  Personally, I’ve not noticed any vacant store fronts on Cherry Street, and The "Matthew" Brady District is on very sound footing.  At one point, I would have thought Guthrie Green was a waste of space which would fall victim to neglect.  Not so.  I see young and old Tulsans embracing and utilizing the new amenities we have now.  Remarkably, much renovation and new construction continued on in spite of the dire economic issues facing the nation the last six years.

The Cherry Street Farmer’s Market is packed every Saturday.  Every event I’ve been to at Guthrie Green has been packed.  Events in the Blue Dome such as the arts festival, Tulsa Tough, and the food truck festival are always packed.  You can’t find a parking spot at Turkey Mountain nor any Riverparks parking lot on a sunny weekend day.  You’d be surprised how many people your age are participating instead of looking on with distrustful skepticism.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on February 03, 2014, 09:51:53 am
Shouldn't we be celebrating on a stack of This Land Press newspapers the razing of a house modeled after Jefferson Davis' home in Mississippi? ;D

While it is dangerous to say "this time it's different", the Kaiser Foundation's track record in Tulsa is pretty good on following through on its plan and the Gathering Place will be a game changer for Tulsa and something truly special.  Therefore, the examples Aqua cites where buildings were cleared on grand plans that never happened do not seem to apply here.  This house was going away, the only question was whether it was moved to some new cite or torn down.  Tulsa has destroyed way too much of its heritage, but I am not feeling it on this one.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on February 03, 2014, 09:59:47 am
Houses don't need to be preserved because a lot of people drove past them a lot.  I have faith in their plan for the park and if it was a make or break for the park they can rebuild it. 

Perhaps a plaque can be placed in the park where the house stood.
Quote
On this site stood a house that a lot of people drove past
Built 1952
Raised Feb 1, 2014


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 03, 2014, 10:32:33 am
Each time I felt the same way, BK. Each time it was "going to happen". And most times, "something" happened but not what was presented. They were all over promised. But, they all suffered from lack of the same components....a homogeneous population, a growing population, a progressive population. Southies, midtowners, downtowners, westies, northsiders and eastsiders all hate each other for the very reasons they each find their own areas attractive. Of course we all hate the suburbans  ;). Enclaves have formed based on race, income, religion, social class, education and politics. The result is categories feeling marginalized and uncomfortable. As a local Deco poster keeps reminding us, we are stagnated in growth. That combined with the other divisions and the lack of much class mobility means we are simply always going to be huffing and puffing with festivals here and there without much real movement.

Any of you take note of the recent protests in SF about the transportation system? The coasts are always a few years ahead and worthy of note for those who enjoy preparing for opportunity. Seems the city worked real hard to set up a public transit system (CalTrans) that would serve all the population including those who were commuting to silicon valley. However, they neglected to understand that what the leaders saw as "service to the public" was not palatable to a younger, wealthier, class based population. The young techies didn't want to ride next to working class folks, who dressed differently, played different music, didn't conform to their accepted norms. The companies they worked for petitioned the city to allow their own private buses to utilize the public bus stops to these commuters. SF allowed it and they now hog the stops keeping the regular buses late and underutilized. The communities around them, now conveniently served by private carriers, have begun to gentrify. Rents are skyrocketing and working people are being driven out.

Seems a bit of foresight might have helped. Just sayin', what is the purpose of many of our current "hot" developments and are they based on faulty assumptions.

Conan, just drove by Cherry Sunday nite (Peoria to Harvard). Other than the really smart redevelopment of the Colony(?) building which is empty by design, there are lots of empty, for lease, or just plain empty locations. Worse than that many of the businesses seem to have not lasted very long when they were rented. Either the rents are too high, the tenants poor planners or the area isn't drawing well. IMO its all three.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on February 03, 2014, 10:55:28 am


The truth is this city cannot support its current division by geography, income, race and employment. We simply don't have an affluent, growing population and that means we will continue to devour one area after another as we try to attract and nurture the coveted young, tech brats who have little appreciation for history, character, quality construction and legacy just like we did the yuppies before them. The pie simply isn't getting bigger and we turn on each other.


I think you understimate the appreciation that the young have for Tulsa and its historic places. Many of the vibrant new businesses and the cool living spaces in these old places are owned by people under 40. Owen Park, Brady Heights and Riverview are filled with young people and young families.

I have a lot of respect for you and your opionion AM, I think maybe spring will improve your outlook.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 03, 2014, 11:36:34 am
Perhaps. Appreciate your comments. There are stages that we all go through, and unfortunately what you learn in each one is not easily transferrable to the incomings. Like teenagers, most of us seem to have to learn by experience.

Strangely, I have more in common with those youngers from 20-30 than I do with the 30-55 group.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 03, 2014, 11:51:56 am

Conan, just drove by Cherry Sunday nite (Peoria to Harvard). Other than the really smart redevelopment of the Colony(?) building which is empty by design, there are lots of empty, for lease, or just plain empty locations. Worse than that many of the businesses seem to have not lasted very long when they were rented. Either the rents are too high, the tenants poor planners or the area isn't drawing well. IMO its all three.

I imagine it did look like a ghost town on a Sunday night.  The area people consider Cherry Street Proper is Peoria to Utica.  There’s been good stability on that stretch for some time.  If you extend it as far as Lewis, it’s dominated by medical professionals and attorneys, with very little turn-over.

Other than the subdivided spaces closer to Harvard, there’s been little turnover on the Lewis to Harvard stretch of 15th over the last 10-20 years. Even businesses I thought would be marginal have done well for a long time, like Momma Trizza’s, The Bead Merchant, Pie Hole, Cheap Thrills.  The equipment rental place has been there for 15-20 years, Bewley Sweeper has been there well over 30 years, and University of Wash probably 20 years.  I’ll drive it this afternoon and take a look, maybe there’s been a sudden cataclysm that claimed businesses I still imagine being there.  ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on February 03, 2014, 12:44:14 pm
I imagine it did look like a ghost town on a Sunday night.  The area people consider Cherry Street Proper is Peoria to Utica.  There’s been good stability on that stretch for some time.  If you extend it as far as Lewis, it’s dominated by medical professionals and attorneys, with very little turn-over.

Other than the subdivided spaces closer to Harvard, there’s been little turnover on the Lewis to Harvard stretch of 15th over the last 10-20 years. Even businesses I thought would be marginal have done well for a long time, like Momma Trizza’s, The Bead Merchant, Pie Hole, Cheap Thrills.  The equipment rental place has been there for 15-20 years, Bewley Sweeper has been there well over 30 years, and University of Wash probably 20 years.  I’ll drive it this afternoon and take a look, maybe there’s been a sudden cataclysm that claimed businesses I still imagine being there.  ;D

Sunday Night also would happen to be the Superbowl.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 03, 2014, 01:21:58 pm
to be accurate, it was Saturday nite. I was watching the Superbowl on Sunday too.

The area from Lewis to Harvard has had its deaths. The Scooter shop, Antique stores are in and out within months, the Gardener lady, the McKee building, the car lot across from it is a new tenant, and lots of little shops that didn't last long enough to make mental note. Yes, some of the long term folks who have bought their buildings or established clientele over many years still do well there. It is not a real healthy stretch of shops though.

Cherry Street proper has lots of vacant space on the south side between Utica and the Church. The new health food store looks really slow on the north. White Owl is over. We ate at Doe's on a Saturday nite recently and were...alone. Enjoyed talking to the owner and his dog though. I remember a children's store that was nearby but I think its gone now. The Lincoln center is slow as well. Is TeKei still there? My guess is that retail is a bust on that stretch. Restaurants, medical, insurance, banks, lawyers, the carwash and franchises are ok because of nearby hospital business.

Hey, I like these areas. I don't say this from just driving by. I drive partiers, reunions and organizations around town. They seldom request Cherry Street. Brady and, to a lesser extent Brookside, command them. But Tulsa has always been that way. An area gets hot, everyone wants to go there...until the next hot area comes. We aren't growing fast enough to support them all. Brookside is lucky to have a demographic living around it that is large and patronizes the area often by foot. Cherry got ravaged to the north and has to share with Utica Square to the south.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 03, 2014, 01:34:38 pm
Ahh, I think I know what the problem is!  Mine is:

(http://karavi.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/glass-half-empty11.jpg)


Yours is:

(http://karavi.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/glass-half-empty11.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on February 03, 2014, 01:47:59 pm
to be accurate, it was Saturday nite. I was watching the Superbowl on Sunday too.

The area from Lewis to Harvard has had its deaths. The Scooter shop,

The Scooter Shop? Man, I hated that place. It replaced The Tap Room. Of course I think that was back in ’93 or ‘94.

#grumpyoldmanrant


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 03, 2014, 02:22:05 pm

Cherry Street proper has lots of vacant space on the south side between Utica and the Church. The new health food store looks really slow on the north. White Owl is over. We ate at Doe's on a Saturday nite recently and were...alone. Enjoyed talking to the owner and his dog though. I remember a children's store that was nearby but I think its gone now. The Lincoln center is slow as well. Is TeKei still there? My guess is that retail is a bust on that stretch. Restaurants, medical, insurance, banks, lawyers, the carwash and franchises are ok because of nearby hospital business.

Hey, I like these areas. I don't say this from just driving by. I drive partiers, reunions and organizations around town. They seldom request Cherry Street. Brady and, to a lesser extent Brookside, command them. But Tulsa has always been that way. An area gets hot, everyone wants to go there...until the next hot area comes. We aren't growing fast enough to support them all. Brookside is lucky to have a demographic living around it that is large and patronizes the area often by foot. Cherry got ravaged to the north and has to share with Utica Square to the south.

White owl is relocating.  The building owners are putting something else in of their own.  Doe's has driven me away. The Snail is doing few any favors by keeping its doors open, (IMO).  


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 03, 2014, 02:38:31 pm
White owl is relocating.  The building owners are putting something else in of their own.  Doe's has driven me away. The Snail is doing few any favors by keeping its doors open, (IMO).  

Doe’s has managed to stay there for at least 6-7 years I’m aware of.  No thanks to me, that’s for certain.

There’s quite a bit of stability on that part of Cherry St., IMO.  Chimi’s, Jason’s, Palace Cafe, Tucci’s, Full Moon, Smoke (even before Smoke there was not rapid churn in that spot), Lucky’s, Qdoba, LaDonna’s, Panera, Drake’s, the coffee shop, Hideaway, Kilkenny’s, etc. ad nauseum.  I don’t think Cherry St. has been a passing fad at all nor has it lost favor.  It’s been one of the more stable areas of locally-owned retail and service businesses in the city.  When MC and I finally purchased wedding bands at Spexton, they said the move to Cherry Street really helped their visibility and business.  Even restaurants with less than stellar menus manage to find long term stability.  Walk it any Friday or Saturday night when it’s not raining or snowing from end to end at 7pm and I bet it looks a lot different.

Sounds like I need to take Aqua out for a beer and cheer him up.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 03, 2014, 03:07:15 pm


Sounds like I need to take Aqua out for a beer and cheer him up.

I'll go


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 03, 2014, 03:35:51 pm
I'm changing clothes to go run a mile or so. I've drank so much beer, rum, wine and vodka and eaten so well the last month that I am soft, sloppy fat and angry about it. Grew a good beard though.

We'll see if that helps my attitude. Patience appreciated.




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 03, 2014, 03:54:45 pm
I'm changing clothes to go run a mile or so. I've drank so much beer, rum, wine and vodka and eaten so well the last month that I am soft, sloppy fat and angry about it. Grew a good beard though.

We'll see if that helps my attitude. Patience appreciated.




Yeah, I got a little doughy around the middle the last month as well. If all else fails, Townsend and I will meet you out for a beer.  Been too long anyhow.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 03, 2014, 04:05:24 pm
Townsend and I will meet you out for a beer.  Been too long anyhow.

Indeed


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 03, 2014, 05:24:17 pm
What's that Arlo Guthrie lyric?....one person talking alone may just be crazy, two people talking are conspiratorial, three and you got a movement!

I could use some inspiration. Name a place and a time.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 03, 2014, 09:01:01 pm
What's that Arlo Guthrie lyric?....one person talking alone may just be crazy, two people talking are conspiratorial, three and you got a movement!

I could use some inspiration. Name a place and a time.

Fur shop?  Hodges bend?  What nights work?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 04, 2014, 08:27:26 am
Fur shop?  Hodges bend?  What nights work?

Let’s let the weather clear out and pick a day/evening next week.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on February 04, 2014, 09:45:35 am
Doe’s has managed to stay there for at least 6-7 years I’m aware of.  No thanks to me, that’s for certain.

closer to 11 I think


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 04, 2014, 10:09:14 am
closer to 11 I think

Wow! How is that possible?  It’s incredibly MEH.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on February 04, 2014, 10:15:28 am
Let’s let the weather clear out and pick a day/evening next week.

Wow, I feel so left out.   ;)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 04, 2014, 12:28:43 pm
Wow, I feel so left out.   ;)

(http://www.xenafan.com/movies/bod/icons/charles.jpg)

Buck up little camper.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 04, 2014, 12:46:35 pm
Any day next week but the evening of the 10th. I have never been inside the Fur shop or Hodges Bend but both look interesting. Anyone who could tolerate having a beer with an opinionated, out of touch, overly sensitive, creative, Welsh/English/Cherokee, native Tulsan....is welcome to drink with me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 04, 2014, 12:49:17 pm
Any day next week but the evening of the 10th. I have never been inside the Fur shop or Hodges Bend but both look interesting. Anyone who could tolerate having a beer with an opinionated, out of touch, overly sensitive, creative, Welsh/English/Cherokee, native Tulsan....is welcome to drink with me.

Irish...we can complain about the over-seasoned local cuisine. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on February 04, 2014, 01:56:59 pm
Irish...we can complain about the over-seasoned local cuisine. 

How about a Scotsman with Cherokee and Sioux?  Or is that too much rage?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 04, 2014, 02:44:19 pm
Any day next week but the evening of the 10th. I have never been inside the Fur shop or Hodges Bend but both look interesting. Anyone who could tolerate having a beer with an opinionated, out of touch, overly sensitive, creative, Welsh/English/Cherokee, native Tulsan....is welcome to drink with me.

Ditto, only no Cherokee in this Welshman.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 04, 2014, 03:49:44 pm
Our ancestors all have in common a hatred of the British and a mistrust of government.


Title: Re: Re: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: custosnox on February 04, 2014, 05:02:53 pm
Our ancestors all have in common a hatred of the British and a mistrust of government.
crap, I'm a descendent of William the conquer, so I better keep my distance.

Sent from my galaxy, far far away, with tapatalk


Title: Re: Re: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on February 04, 2014, 05:09:12 pm
crap, I'm a descendent of William the conquer, so I better keep my distance.

Sent from my galaxy, far far away, with tapatalk

Awesome.  I'm a direct descendent of William Wallace (yes, that one).

I will not, however, paint my face blue.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 04, 2014, 07:33:47 pm
No problem How's.  The Scotts during that period never painted their faces blue - Mel Gibson added it for dramatic effect.  He also left out all the raping and murder done by Wallace against Scottish towns that stayed "neutral".   

You bastard.  :p


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on February 04, 2014, 07:50:24 pm
No problem How's.  The Scotts during that period never painted their faces blue - Mel Gibson added it for dramatic effect.  He also left out all the raping and murder done by Wallace against Scottish towns that stayed "neutral".   

People back then just weren't nice.
 
 :(


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on February 04, 2014, 07:56:20 pm
Our ancestors all have in common a hatred of the British and a mistrust of government.

I'm half British Isles: a bit English, a bit Scottish (also Scotch as an adult), probably some Welsh, and maybe some northern Irish.  That all seems like a self contradicting mix.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on February 04, 2014, 09:49:57 pm
I'm mostly English and my family is from Royal Tunbridge Wells, Kent. Also Scottish, Clan Dalrymple, and bit of Welsh. I am super white. I almost glow in the sun and I don't dance so there won't be a Elaine Benes situation.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: custosnox on February 04, 2014, 10:43:57 pm
Awesome.  I'm a direct descendent of William Wallace (yes, that one).

I will not, however, paint my face blue.
Longshanks is a part of that lineage as well.

Sent from my galaxy, far far away, with tapatalk


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 09, 2014, 05:06:43 am
It's sad that this house was torn down, for me growing up in Tulsa it was a landmark home, and the lawn on the west side was the place in the 70's for the fireworks on the 4th when that was the location. Reading about the proposed development there reminds me of when both Mabel and Hubert had passed and the MA-HU mansion was first vacant back in the late 60's or early 70's. There were a number of plans proposed for that 40 acre lot that never came to be, including one that the mansion would be a meeting facility/center piece of a development that include a conference center, a park, an upscale hotel and retail back in '71 or '72, (IIRC). The big issue that killed most of the proposed developments was the fact that the developers wanted a street that ran from the light that is where Whataburger is going west into the neighborhood on the west side of the property. My parents lived on 26th Court where this street would meet ours, and were opposed to it. That property, even after the house was demolished, sat vacant until the late 80's, so almost 20 years of being a problem and an eyesore.

I may not agree with the things that at being done, but at least it won't be a waste land (hopefully) for 10 to 20 years.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 09, 2014, 05:19:36 am
One of the last pictures of MA-HU.

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/MAHU.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 09, 2014, 06:07:56 am
In some ways, Tulsa tried to be ahead of the curve in the 70's. After the "white flight" in the late 60's, and the shopping change with South Roads and South Land, and the roof collapse of North Land Shopping Center, everything shifted south and east. I give credit to Main Mall, and then the Williams Center Forum trying to jump start down town, but it was too little too late. Even the development of Gilcrease Hills residential area was not enough in the early 70's. I still think that if the Ford Glass Plant was built anywhere but where it was built would have changed the face of Tulsa in the direction that Tulsa grew.

I truly feel that what happened to Tulsa became a case of apathy. No body cared about downtown. Even if you went to an Oilers game or a concert, you went in, and left. And the loss of old buildings and turning them into parking lots, I'm glad that both Mayo buildings survived, too many others haven't.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 09, 2014, 11:10:51 am
We went to a haunted house in the Ma Hu.  I'm thinking it was '75 or '76.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 09, 2014, 11:32:02 am
We went to a haunted house in the Ma Hu.  I'm thinking it was '75 or '76.

"Scream In The Dark" ran '73, '74, and '75. One of several fires in late 1975 ended Scream by severely damaging the house. The last fire that was the nail in the coffin was in '77 or '78 that started in the basement and destroyed a large portion of the flooring for the ground floor, and spread to the upper level of the house turning it into a shell.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on February 10, 2014, 01:55:02 pm
Never heard of Ma Hu.  Pray tell the location and back story?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 10, 2014, 02:01:07 pm
http://tulsatvmemories.com/mahu.html

http://www.tulsaokhistory.com/photogallery/mahumansion.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on February 10, 2014, 02:02:00 pm
Never heard of Ma Hu.  Pray tell the location and back story?


http://tulsatvmemories.com/mahuwrld.html (taken from a Tulsa World story in 1999)



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on February 10, 2014, 04:26:01 pm
Thanks.  Moved to Tulsa early 00's.  Long gone by then.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on February 12, 2014, 01:08:02 pm
The best haunted house around is "The Shadows Edge" in Omaha, NE- it's 15 rooms and is open from Sept to Nov. 1st. >>>http://theshadowsedge.com/contact.htm


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on February 12, 2014, 01:10:31 pm
http://groupon.com/deals/the-shadows-edge-haunted-house  >> It's easy to get to it's located a block north from I-80 at the 84th street exit. Best haunted house I ever been to. Oh yeah, outside of the haunted house is a haunted yard too.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on February 12, 2014, 01:55:56 pm
http://groupon.com/deals/the-shadows-edge-haunted-house  >> It's easy to get to it's located a block north from I-80 at the 84th street exit. Best haunted house I ever been to. Oh yeah, outside of the haunted house is a haunted yard too.

Name of the forum is "Tulsa Now".  Not "Omaha Now"....


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on February 14, 2014, 12:24:04 pm
Name of the forum is "Tulsa Now".  Not "Omaha Now"....
The idea of the forum is to make Tulsa a better place to live, by looking at what others cities have and do, it can inprove life here in Tulsa- widen your horizions and look outside the city limits.... Tulsa is not a bubble


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 14, 2014, 02:02:13 pm
Please explain how you writing about a haunted house in Omaha makes Tulsa a better place.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on February 14, 2014, 02:54:58 pm
The idea of the forum is to make Tulsa a better place to live, by looking at what others cities have and do, it can inprove life here in Tulsa- widen your horizions and look outside the city limits.... Tulsa is not a bubble

We're talking about a Tulsa park in the works and you go off on a tangent about an Omaha haunted house.

How about staying on topic, even if you don't live here.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 14, 2014, 03:25:13 pm
We're talking about a Tulsa park in the works and you go off on a tangent about an Omaha haunted house.

How about staying on topic, even if you don't live here.

He lives in a bubble, or is it a vacuum? I'm not sure which it is.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 14, 2014, 03:26:44 pm
He lives in a bubble, or is it a vacuum? I'm not sure which it is.


I think it’s a dust bag of a vacuum cleaner, actually.  Explains a few things.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 14, 2014, 03:27:57 pm
I think it’s a dust bag of a vacuum cleaner, actually.  Explains a few things.

Smokin' that "MJ".


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on February 15, 2014, 10:34:34 am
Joggers blend no doubt.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on February 25, 2014, 10:35:22 am
Look what Jenks wants to build down the river:

http://tulsa.craigslist.org/off/4332295234.html

'cause the riverfront is under-served by six-story bank buildings?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on February 25, 2014, 10:39:50 am
Look what Jenks wants to build down the river:

http://tulsa.craigslist.org/off/4332295234.html

'cause the riverfront is under-served by six-story bank buildings?

I wouldn't say "wants" to build, that building is almost finished.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on February 25, 2014, 10:47:41 am
To bring Patric up to speed, here's a current photo

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/first-oklahoma-bank-adds-bling-atop-new-headquarters-in-jenks/article_8910c22d-37c6-5e1a-8a29-3d7185bfac2d.html

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/0c/c0c87d59-e688-56d9-a820-cd7d25e9abf2/52fdcd42a178f.image.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on March 19, 2014, 02:59:03 pm
Tulsa Tries Again for a TIGER Grant

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-tries-again-tiger-grant (http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-tries-again-tiger-grant)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/Picture.jpg)

Quote
TIGER Grant round two. The city of Tulsa is attempting again to get a federal transportation grant to help fund improvements to Riverside Drive as part of the Gathering Place project. City Engineer Paul Zachary says the dollars would go only for public use aspects of the project like Riverside and the pedestrian bridge. This time the city is seeking between $11 and $14 million. Applications are due the end of April and awards will be announced sometime around Labor Day.      

A similar application for nearly $15 million was rejected last year, but Zachary says questioned areas have been addressed, and chances are better this time around.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on March 26, 2014, 12:03:30 pm
Tulsa Mayor Appoints River Development Director

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201403/Robert_Gardner.jpg)

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-mayor-appoints-river-development-director (http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-mayor-appoints-river-development-director)

Quote
Former Tulsa City Councilor Robert Gardner will be the Mayor’s Director of River Development. The focus will be on getting and keeping water in the river to encourage development along its’ banks. Gardner says he went to Mayor Bartlett several weeks ago and offered to help. He says one person with a total focus on the river should be able to help move things along.

Gardner, a city councilor from 1994-1998, will begin immediately and will not be paid for his work.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on March 26, 2014, 01:13:19 pm
Is this a paid position or honorary?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on March 26, 2014, 01:38:07 pm
Is this a paid position or honorary?

Quote
Gardner, a city councilor from 1994-1998, will begin immediately and will not be paid for his work


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on March 26, 2014, 01:51:57 pm
Well I’ll be damned.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on March 27, 2014, 02:40:40 am
To bring Patric up to speed, here's a current photo

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/first-oklahoma-bank-adds-bling-atop-new-headquarters-in-jenks/article_8910c22d-37c6-5e1a-8a29-3d7185bfac2d.html

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/0c/c0c87d59-e688-56d9-a820-cd7d25e9abf2/52fdcd42a178f.image.jpg)


Are you sure that's not a Mormon Temple?

(http://img.deseretnews.com/images/article/midres/1304584/1304584.jpg)

http://mormontemples.org/gilbert (http://mormontemples.org/gilbert)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on March 27, 2014, 09:28:48 am
Tulsa Mayor Appoints River Development Director

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201403/Robert_Gardner.jpg)

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-mayor-appoints-river-development-director (http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-mayor-appoints-river-development-director)


Not surprised that he approached Bartlett about this. They served on the council around the same time. He has a clear headed intelligence and a penchant for getting along with people of different views and social standing. A real stand up guy. I took his kid on an airboat trip on the Arkansas a decade back.

Only a few options for putting water in the river and keeping it there. Look forward to hearing his progress.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dsjeffries on March 27, 2014, 10:09:21 am
Well I’ll be damned.

You'll be damned and maybe the river will get dammed.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on March 27, 2014, 03:00:04 pm
River Task Force Talks Longterm Funding, Storm Water System

http://kwgs.com/post/river-task-force-talks-longterm-funding-storm-water-system (http://kwgs.com/post/river-task-force-talks-longterm-funding-storm-water-system)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201212/Arkansas_river.jpg)

Quote
Tulsa's river task force is trying to figure out how to pay for ongoing maintenance a system of low-water dams would need.

A tax increment financing district was one proposal, but those are better for building projects than they are for funding upkeep. Economic Development Coordinator Jim Coles said a business improvement district may work.

"They allow for property owners to pay an assessment annually, which is collected up and then used to do common maintenance, upkeep things — maybe street sweeping or landscaping downtown," Coles said. "There could be something more along the lines of general maintenance to a dam."

Putting water in the Arkansas River also comes with a challenge for Tulsa's storm water system.

Many outlets for the distribution system that feeds into the river weren't designed to be underwater all the time, but they will be if low-water dams are built. City Engineer Paul Zachary said not preparing would cause big problems.

"That's the worst thing that can happen, is that pipe falling off, and then we end up with some type of a sinkhole form or something like that up the bank," Zachary said, adding that work needs to be done "all up and down" the river.

The county took an inventory of the system, but there's no estimate of the cost yet.

The task force is due to report to the mayor in about six weeks.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on April 11, 2014, 12:10:07 pm
Probably could've titled this better but...

Some Costs, Funding for Arkansas River Projects Still Uncertain

http://kwgs.com/post/some-costs-funding-arkansas-river-projects-still-uncertain (http://kwgs.com/post/some-costs-funding-arkansas-river-projects-still-uncertain)

Quote
Tulsa’s river task force will wait at least another month for a firm estimate on how much it will cost to prepare the city’s storm water system for water in the river.

Gaylon Pinc with the Program Management Group gave the group a ballpark estimate and said he’s relieved it wasn’t in the tens of millions of dollars range.

"We're probably looking at a million or less to do the storm sewers, perhaps a couple million if we did all of the bad banks stabilization work," Pinc said. "That's a small part when you're looking at a $43 million dam reconstruction part with recreational features."

A survey shows about 10 percent of the Arkansas River’s 84 miles of shoreline will need stabilizing.

Those projects and others designed to put water in the river could get a funding boost from a Vision 2025 surplus.

The "medium" surplus is around $54 million. Once county commissioners formally acknowledge it, the Vision Authority will decide how to spend it.

Vision 2025 Program Director Kirby Crowe says they’ll have some restrictions, though.

"To say just, blanketly, 'Let's put it to the river, it fits' — you have to look at the individual benefit of the project and make sure it does to avoid a taxpayer suit," Crowe said.

The Vision Authority consists of representatives from communities throughout Tulsa County, many of which have already invested in the river.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: joiei on April 12, 2014, 09:57:53 pm
To bring Patric up to speed, here's a current photo

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/first-oklahoma-bank-adds-bling-atop-new-headquarters-in-jenks/article_8910c22d-37c6-5e1a-8a29-3d7185bfac2d.html

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/0c/c0c87d59-e688-56d9-a820-cd7d25e9abf2/52fdcd42a178f.image.jpg)

Is this building design supposed to be a modern reinterpretation of something from South Beach in Florida?  It's really kind of ugly.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on April 13, 2014, 07:08:47 am
Is this building design supposed to be a modern reinterpretation of something from South Beach in Florida?  It's really kind of ugly.

They haven't put the outside on yet:
(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/20397695_SA.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on April 15, 2014, 11:59:15 am
I've noticed some clearing of brush along the river's edge at 45th on the East side. 

Is this the beginning of a larger project or was this an isolated thing?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on April 15, 2014, 03:56:50 pm
I've noticed some clearing of brush along the river's edge at 45th on the East side. 

Is this the beginning of a larger project or was this an isolated thing?

I think it is still tied to the original kaiser project. They did 41st to 61st area last.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 06, 2014, 11:21:21 am
19 New Donors Pledge Funds for Planned Tulsa Park

http://kwgs.com/post/19-new-donors-pledge-funds-planned-tulsa-park (http://kwgs.com/post/19-new-donors-pledge-funds-planned-tulsa-park)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201306/Gathering_Space.JPG)

Quote
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — Nineteen donors have committed more than $40 million for the city's newest park along the Arkansas River, pushing the total contributions for the planned project over the $100 million mark.

The George Kaiser Family Foundation — which will contribute $200 million toward the project— announced the pledges this week for the park, called "A Gathering Place for Tulsa."

Kaiser is a lifelong Tulsan and one of the wealthiest people in the country. He's chairman of BOK Financial Corp. and a major shareholder in various energy and technology companies.

The donations will help fund the construction of the nearly 91-acre park and seed its operating endowment. The project's fundraising goal is $150 million.

More information about the park can be found at www.agatheringplacefortulsa.com.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 06, 2014, 11:39:10 am
So this "up to $150M project" is now over $300M in donations.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 06, 2014, 11:46:43 am
So this "up to $150M project" is now over $300M in donations.

Yes, but according to Uncle Kimchi, this is still a rip off to taxpayers.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 06, 2014, 11:56:02 am
Yes, but according to Uncle Kimchi, this is still a rip off to taxpayers.

He grew up playing in the other kind of park and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for everyone else.

(http://www.blendcentralmn.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Old-Playground-Equipment.jpg)

C'mon Sauer, get on in here and bust it up.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 06, 2014, 12:39:27 pm
That reminded me of another standard item at Tulsa parks when I grew up

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2658/4023852734_50409ec2cb.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on May 06, 2014, 01:15:17 pm
That reminded me of another standard item at Tulsa parks when I grew up

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2658/4023852734_50409ec2cb.jpg)

Those were always best in direct sun in July.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on May 06, 2014, 01:17:00 pm
Those were always best in direct sun in July.

Oh, the burn...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 06, 2014, 01:17:54 pm
Oh, the burn...

Just like hot vinyl car seats when wearing shorts.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on May 06, 2014, 02:08:32 pm
Just like hot vinyl car seats when wearing shorts.

OMG, had a 1978 Malibu at one point that I could hardly turn the key tumbler over in if the car had sat out in the sun for too long (this was long before the foldout windowshades were in fashion).  Remember how those were textured.  You'd burn a semi-permanent pattern into your fingers with those.

I guess if you wanted to thwart the police fingerprinting you, that would be a good way of doing it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 06, 2014, 02:33:48 pm
OMG, had a 1978 Malibu at one point that I could hardly turn the key tumbler over in if the car had sat out in the sun for too long (this was long before the foldout windowshades were in fashion).  Remember how those were textured.  You'd burn a semi-permanent pattern into your fingers with those.

I guess if you wanted to thwart the police fingerprinting you, that would be a good way of doing it.

I didn’t have that problem with my ’68 El Camino as it did not have the key on the steering column.  Something makes me think that debuted on ’69 or ’70 Chevelle and El Camino lines.  But I did have the vinyl b1tch bench seat.  Only thing worse than burnt legs or fingers from a column ignition was bashing my frozen knuckles on the radiator when replacing the lower hose in sub 30 temps.

Holy crap, that’s some thread drift!

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/e3/8e323f44-c016-11e3-9fd8-001a4bcf6878/53459455d72c3.image.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Stanley1 on May 07, 2014, 08:18:30 am
I listened to a presentation on this last night.  The presenter was Jeff Stava, the project's director.

This thing is going to be something truly special.  There are so many aspects to the park that will be unique to the United States.  I didn't realize the time frame was so far out, but they won't even finish Phase 1 until 2017-2018.  They've made a few relatively minor changes to what was last shown to the public.  There will be a BMX Pump Track near the Skate Bowl.  They are adding some "docks" around the pond for fishing.  Changing materials on a few items.  They are wanting to add some more night life stuff down around 31st street.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on May 07, 2014, 10:03:23 am
They are wanting to add some more night life stuff down around 31st street.

Night life stuff?  A restaurant with a river facing patio perhaps?  Leave the rest in Brookside less than a half mile away.

A friend is looking at buying a house near 31st & Detroit.  One of his biggest issues with the location is that there are no sidewalks on 31st to be able to walk to Brookside or the river trails.  Hopefully that is something that will be added as this park is constructed, so people can actually walk there.  The trail along Crow Creek is also an important connection to this park from Brookside.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on May 07, 2014, 04:32:13 pm
Appears that what is developing is that on the south end of the park there will be apartments/condos, possibly with a retail/dining component in the mix.  Also seems as though they will work to have a trail from Brookside along Crow Creek to the river.  Would be nice if development were able to evolve in from each end creating a smaller cozy version of a San Antonio Boardwalk type thing.  Imagine small brick and or stone buildings and even converted homes on each side of the Creek with perhaps cafe's with outdoor seating, and art galleries on the ground floor, large trees, lamp posts, the occasional small bridge crossing, etc. all along Crow Creek from Brookside to the River.  I could imagine a little Thomas Kinkaid village type thing in that area. One can dream anywhoo lol.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on May 08, 2014, 09:30:31 pm
I like the vision, and definitely see some creekside dining in the future.  I've thought that you could build out the space where the small office is by the creek north of Shades of Brown, with a big patio space by the creek and Peoria.  It's a really nice waterway covered by big trees, and would be a popular bike/jogging path.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on May 08, 2014, 10:51:50 pm
I could imagine a little Thomas Kinkaid village type thing in that area.

I just threw up a little.

-2 artist integrity points.   :D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2014, 11:25:05 pm

A friend is looking at buying a house near 31st & Detroit.  One of his biggest issues with the location is that there are no sidewalks on 31st to be able to walk to Brookside or the river trails.  Hopefully that is something that will be added as this park is constructed, so people can actually walk there.  The trail along Crow Creek is also an important connection to this park from Brookside.


Can't they walk on the grass??  That is, after all, what it is designed for....  well, that and feeding cattle.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on May 09, 2014, 06:57:23 am
I just threw up a little.

-2 artist integrity points.   :D

I know I know.  On the one hand I can't stand Thomas Kinkade if his stuff is looked at as "fine art" to hang on your living room walls (Please NO people!). But on the other, as a Disney fan, I have to admit I really like his Disney stuff lol.  I think that's more the category his work should fit into.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 09, 2014, 07:35:50 am
I know I know.  On the one hand I can't stand Thomas Kinkade if his stuff is looked at as "fine art" to hang on your living room walls (Please NO people!). But on the other, as a Disney fan, I have to admit I really like his Disney stuff lol.  I think that's more the category his work should fit into.

So are you saying doing Kinkade knock-offs could be in your future or not?  ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on May 09, 2014, 10:59:23 am
So are you saying doing Kinkade knock-offs could be in your future or not?  ;D

Only if they are Disney related and perhaps with an Art Deco twist here and there.  ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2014, 01:35:13 pm
Only if they are Disney related and perhaps with an Art Deco twist here and there.  ;D


You don't like Kinkade??   But it's so shiny and sparkly!!


I am using some of his buildings for inspiration for what I am starting to build.  But then, I am also using Clarehouse as input, too.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 09, 2014, 03:34:18 pm
Only if they are Disney related and perhaps with an Art Deco twist here and there.  ;D

So this with deco?

(http://ep.yimg.com/ay/gallerydirectart/thomas-kinkade-open-edition-framed-classic-canvas-snow-white-discovers-the-cottage-4.jpg)

I had to look it up.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on May 09, 2014, 04:25:15 pm
I actually more like the Pinocchio, Beauty and the Beast and Cinderella ones better.

But as for Crow Creek, look up "Thomas Kinkade Lamplight Village" or "Cobblestone Brooke".   Something like that that kind of fits the character of the neighborhoods nearby and having art galleries and cafe's.  Hokey I know, but something like that would work there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 09, 2014, 05:06:19 pm
Kinkade's later work was better

(http://best-posts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/jeff-bennett-war-on-kincade-3.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on May 09, 2014, 05:06:42 pm
But as for Crow Creek, look up "Thomas Kinkade Lamplight Village" or "Cobblestone Brooke".   Something like that that kind of fits the character of the neighborhoods nearby and having art galleries and cafe's.  Hokey I know, but something like that would work there.

(http://www.eborg2.com/Wallpapers/Kincade/TKincade-D09.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on May 10, 2014, 12:17:21 pm
There is a large piece of private property along and north of the creek to 31st & Peoria.  I wouldn't be surprised to someday see it be divided into smaller parcels for homes with some abutting the creek.  It could look somewhat similar, or it could be Tuscan.  ;)

I do hope the jogging /bike trail along the creek goes all the way to Zink Park, and goes under Peoria.  It would be awesome if it could go all the way to Philbrook but I don't see that happening.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 11, 2014, 10:16:30 pm
I actually more like the Pinocchio, Beauty and the Beast and Cinderella ones better.

But as for Crow Creek, look up "Thomas Kinkade Lamplight Village" or "Cobblestone Brooke".   Something like that that kind of fits the character of the neighborhoods nearby and having art galleries and cafe's.  Hokey I know, but something like that would work there.


Except for the small river and the bridge, there is something reminiscent from about 4th to 15th, both sides of Harvard....Hansel and Gretel Houses....


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on July 15, 2014, 02:06:34 pm
The evictions for the apartment demolition have begun.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 15, 2014, 03:04:43 pm
I’m disappointed to see that, but sounds as if they will be putting mixed income housing back in during phase II. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on July 15, 2014, 03:14:37 pm
I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Slowly but surely the low to moderate cost apartment housing along Riverside has disappeared. Some of it thankfully. The more confident owners are that the area will support higher rents, the more likely "mixed" will not materialize. Westport could be on the chopping block if any substantial development arrives on that side.

Good news is that my old unit from the mid 70's and the olympic size pool and clubhouse escaped the dozer. for now.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 15, 2014, 03:38:36 pm
I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Slowly but surely the low to moderate cost apartment housing along Riverside has disappeared. Some of it thankfully. The more confident owners are that the area will support higher rents, the more likely "mixed" will not materialize. Westport could be on the chopping block if any substantial development arrives on that side.

Good news is that my old unit from the mid 70's and the olympic size pool and clubhouse escaped the dozer. for now.

It’s Kaiser’s ball, so I’m going to trust it will happen for now.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on July 16, 2014, 09:18:35 am
It’s Kaiser’s ball, so I’m going to trust it will happen for now.

Left or right?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 16, 2014, 09:52:06 am
Left or right?

Oh-mah-stars


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 23, 2014, 07:41:42 am
Riverside Traffic to be Impacted by 'Gathering Place' Construction

http://publicradiotulsa.org/term/local-regional (http://publicradiotulsa.org/term/local-regional)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201407/gathering_place_rendering.jpg)

Quote
Tulsa's next traffic bottleneck will be Riverside Drive. The City held a meeting last night to detail how the construction of 'A Gathering Place for Tulsa' will impact Riverside Drive.

There will be lane shifts and closures, and this time next year the entire roadway will be closed near the Pedestrian Bridge. That means drivers will have to find new routes into and out of downtown Tulsa.

The roadway will be ripped-up and replaced along with utilities in that same area. City leaders say while it will be an inconvenience in the short term, the new world-class park will be worth the wait.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on July 23, 2014, 07:53:28 am
I still remember the rage expressed by runners when the path was interrupted to build the low water dam. People don't like their regular routines changed.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 23, 2014, 08:33:34 am
Left or right?


Oh, no!!... you didn't go THERE...!!!


Funny....


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 23, 2014, 11:38:57 am
I still remember the rage expressed by runners when the path was interrupted to build the low water dam. People don't like their regular routines changed.



It's my best route to work.  I'll be M'F'ing it myself from time to time.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on July 23, 2014, 12:25:31 pm
I expect the BA and HWY 75 will get much more crowded.  Thankfully the NB 75/244 bridge over the Arkansas is scheduled to be finished on August 4th.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 23, 2014, 12:27:09 pm
I expect the BA and HWY 75 will get much more crowded.  Thankfully the NB 75/244 bridge over the Arkansas is scheduled to be finished on August 4th.


Any plans on 75 getting widened to 6 lanes within the next year?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 23, 2014, 12:38:34 pm
I expect the BA and HWY 75 will get much more crowded.  Thankfully the NB 75/244 bridge over the Arkansas is scheduled to be finished on August 4th.


Whoa!  That soon?  Great news!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on July 23, 2014, 01:58:16 pm
Any plans on 75 getting widened to 6 lanes within the next year?

Gawd I hope not.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 23, 2014, 03:41:00 pm
Gawd I hope not.

It's Oklahoma.

Think about it though.  It'd bring Glenpool to your front door.  Glenpool!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on July 23, 2014, 06:08:18 pm
It's Oklahoma.

Think about it though.  It'd bring Glenpool to your front door.  Glenpool!

OMG the fantasy burns bright!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 24, 2014, 08:22:45 am
I expect the BA and HWY 75 will get much more crowded.  Thankfully the NB 75/244 bridge over the Arkansas is scheduled to be finished on August 4th.


Where did you hear that?

That’s less than two weeks.

I drove past and rode near there last night, sure looks like more than two weeks worth of work left.  What I looked at on ODOT’s web site says “closed through spring 2015."


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on July 24, 2014, 11:12:44 am
August 4 sounds more like the opening date for the Lewis bridge over I44.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 24, 2014, 12:17:36 pm
August 4 sounds more like the opening date for the Lewis bridge over I44.

Channel 6 was reporting this morning it will be closed through summer.  Not sure if they mean as until Sept. 21 or another interpretation.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 24, 2014, 01:08:57 pm
Channel 6 was reporting this morning it will be closed through summer.  Not sure if they mean as until Sept. 21 or another interpretation.


Which summer?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 24, 2014, 01:52:27 pm

Which summer?


Damn you.  *wiping spit up water off computer screen and keyboard*


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on July 24, 2014, 02:52:25 pm
That type of predicting is known as "Sager-casting". I'm sure you get my drift.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on July 28, 2014, 07:44:16 am
Where did you hear that?

That’s less than two weeks.

I drove past and rode near there last night, sure looks like more than two weeks worth of work left.  What I looked at on ODOT’s web site says “closed through spring 2015."

Key word being scheduled.  They are pouring approaches right now.  The side barriers are nearly complete.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: brettakins on August 14, 2014, 08:07:44 am
George Kaiser Foundation to make record donation to River Parks for A Gathering Place

Quote
The River Parks Board of Trustees this morning voted unanimously to accept what is believed to be the largest gift to a public park in the history of the United States.

"It will make a huge and wonderful difference to Tulsa," Board Chairwoman Robin Ballenger said before the vote.

The city of Tulsa and Tulsa County on Thursday will receive what is believed

In the small boardroom of River Parks Authority, officials from the George Kaiser Family Foundation will donate A Gathering Place for Tulsa to the authority.

The gift is estimated at $350 million, including approximately $50 million for operations and maintenance.

The previous largest gift to a public park was $100 million to the Central Park Conservancy in New York, according to the foundation.

Jeff Stava, project manager for A Gathering Place, said the foundation is simply keeping its promise.

“We have always told the community that this is a gift to the community,” Stava said. “This is the way for us to express that gift by donating it to River Parks — which is a Title 60 authority — and the beneficiaries are the city of Tulsa and Tulsa County.”

The complicated legal transaction will leave River Parks as the owner of 58.37 acres of new park land on which Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will be constructed. Operation and maintenance of the park will be handled by the GKFF Parks Conservancy LLC.

The properties on which Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will be built include the Blair mansion site; land along the Midland Valley Trail; the River Parks trail from approximately 27th to 34th streets; and the parking lot on the northeast corner of 31st Street and Riverside Drive.

The River Parks Authority will oversee the construction of the public park, Stava said.

“They will own them (the park properties), and we will be managing, operating, securing and programming the park,” Stava said. “And by partnering with River Parks we are ensuring that it will continue in the same fine legacy that they have had as custodians of our River Parks trail system. This park will fall into that same line of excellence.”

River Parks was established in 1974. The trail system includes 26 miles of asphalt trails that run from 11th Street to 101st Street on the east bank of the Arkansas River and 11th Street to 71st Street on the west bank of the river. The trail system also includes the Katy Trail, which runs from downtown Tulsa to Adams Road in Sand Springs.

Stava said users of the River Parks trails won’t notice the difference when A Gathering Place becomes part of River Parks.

“We will have a seamless and coordinated transition between the adjacent River Parks owned-and-operated properties and the property that is managed by the foundation,” he said.

The official ground-breaking for the park is scheduled for Sept. 20. The event will run from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., with the ground-breaking scheduled for noon.

Stava said there will be live music, 30 food trucks and more at the event.

“We are encouraging families to bring a picnic lunch or to enjoy the food trucks,” Stava said. “QuikTrip will be there with drinks.”

Once the party is over, the work begins.

“On Monday, the 22nd, we will be putting up the fences along Riverside Drive, starting underground work and dirt work, and starting to get the site prepared for construction,” Stava said.

Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will span from approximately 27th Street to 31st Street on the east side of Riverside Drive and from 26th Street to 33rd Place along the west side of the street.

Construction is expected to be completed by late 2017, with two more phases planned that would bring the total park space to nearly 100 acres.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage3/george-kaiser-foundation-to-make-record-donation-to-river-parks/article_d1865fb1-003c-5414-9fb7-eaf86857f4ca.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage3/george-kaiser-foundation-to-make-record-donation-to-river-parks/article_d1865fb1-003c-5414-9fb7-eaf86857f4ca.html)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on August 14, 2014, 08:52:00 am
I guess that puts the whiners in their place after the failure of the ’07 River tax package.

See, Kaiser will end up donating $400 million or more to the Riverparks area before it’s all said and done, without needing Tulsa voters to dig in their pockets for a matching fund.

I’d be really curious to know if the ’07 tax package was Kaiser’s idea in the first place or if Randi Miller thought she could get a smash and grab slush fund for the county out of the taxpayers.  He’s been more than forthcoming with money for RP improvements ever since. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on August 14, 2014, 09:18:12 am
When do we get to rename this project. AGPFT is kinda weak.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on August 14, 2014, 10:05:20 am
I guess that puts the whiners in their place after the failure of the ’07 River tax package.

See, Kaiser will end up donating $400 million or more to the Riverparks area before it’s all said and done, without needing Tulsa voters to dig in their pockets for a matching fund.

I’d be really curious to know if the ’07 tax package was Kaiser’s idea in the first place or if Randi Miller thought she could get a smash and grab slush fund for the county out of the taxpayers.  He’s been more than forthcoming with money for RP improvements ever since. 

My recollection is the "powers the be" were beginning the process of putting together a package in a fashion similar to what GT has done in the last year.  The group that put forth "The Channels" pushed the timeline up and forced the city/county/chamber to do something immediately.  That led to the poorly marketed package that was placed on the ballot.

Seven years later I still hear people lament or express joy The Channels project/building condos in the river tax wasn't passed.  Amazing considering the project on the ballot had nothing to do with The Channels.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 14, 2014, 10:19:35 am
When do we get to rename this project. AGPFT is kinda weak.

Gawd. I thought it was just me. Isn't Tulsa more creative than that? Artist?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: saintnicster on August 14, 2014, 10:52:39 am
Gawd. I thought it was just me. Isn't Tulsa more creative than that? Artist?
How long was it before "The Park on Brady" was named Guthrie Green? https://www.google.com/maps/@36.158946,-95.991776,3a,75y,354.45h,61.35t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdWNt1TzWEia6HXeYs7THYQ!2e0 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.158946,-95.991776,3a,75y,354.45h,61.35t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdWNt1TzWEia6HXeYs7THYQ!2e0)

EDIT - Nevermind, found the article :) http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/guthrie-green-park-being-built-in-brady-district-to-host/article_9d0e58ad-97fe-5553-a0d0-b7d5ccf87d72.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on August 14, 2014, 10:53:19 am
My recollection is the "powers the be" were beginning the process of putting together a package in a fashion similar to what GT has done in the last year.  The group that put forth "The Channels" pushed the timeline up and forced the city/county/chamber to do something immediately.  That led to the poorly marketed package that was placed on the ballot.

Seven years later I still hear people lament or express joy The Channels project/building condos in the river tax wasn't passed.  Amazing considering the project on the ballot had nothing to do with The Channels.

The project was a moving target with more crap added weekly in order to buy votes.  It was also being proposed er pushed well in advance of studies by the Corps of Engineers as to what could or could not be done in terms of development and water impoundment.  It also proposed an egregious golden handshake to the owner of the concrete plant at the expense of taxpayers when we had an M & E facility which was supposed to be moved to the old Downtown Airpark as a part of the agreement on putting City Hall in the Borg Cube. 

One excuse I heard for the timing was there was some fear of an impending recession and if they waited much longer, it would never get passed.  History shows the financial apocalypse happened about nine months later.

It didn’t help the image with voters that no V-2025 money had been spent on the river at that point and the subsequent spin to try and mitigate those sort of comments left many feeling lied to or talked down to.  That led many voters to believe this might be one more package of broken promises.

In retrospect, V-2025 has been a major bonanza for Tulsa County.  This coming from someone who voted against it.  I’d vote for an extension if it meant more of what we have gotten from the first package.  Well subtracting the the contribution to Michael Sager’s First Street Lofts.  ;)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 14, 2014, 10:53:45 am


Tulsa Place.....



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on August 14, 2014, 11:13:52 am
George Park

The River George

GK Park


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on August 14, 2014, 11:17:17 am
Tulsa Happy Fun Time Place


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on August 14, 2014, 11:37:00 am
A river runs through George

George Gorge

"no, Jackass, this was not paid for with your taxes" park


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 14, 2014, 12:19:43 pm
We could do a developer name.....The Greens at Walnut Park (because there are no Walnut trees to be seen)

Or a founders name......Kaiser's Kingdom Kome  (something wrong with that, lemme think)

How about something classy......C'est Homage de la Kaisere'

A local descriptive name.....Tulsa Homeless Depot

Here's one.....Gar Gardens

Similar to Gathering Place......That place by the river that used to be flat

Seriously, New York was comfortable with Central Park. We already have one of those, how about keeping it simple and clean......Riverside Park.




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on August 14, 2014, 12:55:43 pm
Tulsa Happy Fun Time Place

I thought that was Chucky Cheese’s.  The pizza pimpin’ rat.


Title: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AdamsHall on August 14, 2014, 01:43:54 pm
Article in the TW today indicates Phase I of park would be 58.37 acres in size.  It also notes that there are two more planned phases that would "bring the total park space to nearly 100 acres."  Can anyone shed light on what Phases I and II will include and where they are to be located?  Thanks.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on August 14, 2014, 10:06:59 pm
Article in the TW today indicates Phase I of park would be 58.37 acres in size.  It also notes that there are two more planned phases that would "bring the total park space to nearly 100 acres."  Can anyone shed light on what Phases I and II will include and where they are to be located?  Thanks.

In a general sense, Phase 1 is north of the pedestrian bridge. Phase 2 and 3 move south where the 31st St parking lot is, and where the apartments south of 31st are.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on August 14, 2014, 10:08:50 pm
My recollection is the "powers the be" were beginning the process of putting together a package in a fashion similar to what GT has done in the last year.  The group that put forth "The Channels" pushed the timeline up and forced the city/county/chamber to do something immediately.  That led to the poorly marketed package that was placed on the ballot.

Seven years later I still hear people lament or express joy The Channels project/building condos in the river tax wasn't passed.  Amazing considering the project on the ballot had nothing to do with The Channels.

This.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Stanley1 on August 15, 2014, 07:28:10 am
In a general sense, Phase 1 is north of the pedestrian bridge. Phase 2 and 3 move south where the 31st St parking lot is, and where the apartments south of 31st are.

It's a little more than just that, if I recall.  I think there are buildings set to go up north of the Pedestrian Bridge, that won't go up in Phase 1.  I'm not 100% on that, but I seem to recall that being the case.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on August 15, 2014, 10:30:41 am
The project was a moving target with more crap added weekly in order to buy votes.  It was also being proposed er pushed well in advance of studies by the Corps of Engineers as to what could or could not be done in terms of development and water impoundment.  It also proposed an egregious golden handshake to the owner of the concrete plant at the expense of taxpayers when we had an M & E facility which was supposed to be moved to the old Downtown Airpark as a part of the agreement on putting City Hall in the Borg Cube.  

One excuse I heard for the timing was there was some fear of an impending recession and if they waited much longer, it would never get passed.  History shows the financial apocalypse happened about nine months later.

It didn’t help the image with voters that no V-2025 money had been spent on the river at that point and the subsequent spin to try and mitigate those sort of comments left many feeling lied to or talked down to.  That led many voters to believe this might be one more package of broken promises.

In retrospect, V-2025 has been a major bonanza for Tulsa County.  This coming from someone who voted against it.  I’d vote for an extension if it meant more of what we have gotten from the first package.  Well subtracting the the contribution to Michael Sager’s First Street Lofts.  ;)

While I think The Channels muddied the waters in voters' minds on the failed river vote, I think the real problem was it came too soon after V2025.  The V2025 skeptics were still predicting gloom and doom and most of the projects, in particular the BOK Center, had not yet been completed and proven successful.  Even with those problems, however, as I recall a majority of Tulsans voted yes, but it was defeated primarily by voters in Tulsa County towns with no connection to the river (Owasso and BA).

I'm still concerned about the rush to grab the extention of the V2025 tax without a full discussion and consideration of what else that tax money might be used for to improve Tulsa (transit, housing, etc.).  Unfortunatley, "putting water in the river" is perceived as a legacy making project by politicians.

Whatever happens to the river itself, The Gathering Place is truly a transformational project for this city in a way that I'm not sure a lot of Tulsans have fullly grasped.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on August 15, 2014, 11:02:07 am
While I think The Channels muddied the waters in voters' minds on the failed river vote, I think the real problem was it came too soon after V2025.  The V2025 skeptics were still predicting gloom and doom and most of the projects, in particular the BOK Center, had not yet been completed and proven successful.  Even with those problems, however, as I recall a majority of Tulsans voted yes, but it was defeated primarily by voters in Tulsa County towns with no connection to the river (Owasso and BA).

I'm still concerned about the rush to grab the extention of the V2025 tax without a full discussion and consideration of what else that tax money might be used for to improve Tulsa (transit, housing, etc.).  Unfortunatley, "putting water in the river" is perceived as a legacy making project by politicians.

Whatever happens to the river itself, The Gathering Place is truly a transformational project for this city in a way that I'm not sure a lot of Tulsans have fullly grasped.

If the river proposal had been done by the city it would have happened.  The reason V-2025 succeeded at the polls is there was grease for every municipality in it.  There was little or nothing other than unsubstantiated concepts for BA, Bixby, Jenks, and Sand Springs.  Owasso, Glennpool, and Collinsville stood to gain nothing within their towns.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 15, 2014, 11:38:17 am
While I think The Channels muddied the waters in voters' minds on the failed river vote, I think the real problem was it came too soon after V2025.  The V2025 skeptics were still predicting gloom and doom and most of the projects, in particular the BOK Center, had not yet been completed and proven successful.  Even with those problems, however, as I recall a majority of Tulsans voted yes, but it was defeated primarily by voters in Tulsa County towns with no connection to the river (Owasso and BA).

I'm still concerned about the rush to grab the extention of the V2025 tax without a full discussion and consideration of what else that tax money might be used for to improve Tulsa (transit, housing, etc.).  Unfortunatley, "putting water in the river" is perceived as a legacy making project by politicians.

Whatever happens to the river itself, The Gathering Place is truly a transformational project for this city in a way that I'm not sure a lot of Tulsans have fullly grasped.

I think you can be sure that a lot of Tulsans have not fully grasped its transformational potential. Or its economic potential. Yes, every major city has a hallmark park worthy of revisiting. I remember one with sailboats and kayaks in Minneapolis near downtown. But our taxpayers have seen many projects thru the years over hyped and underwhelming in reality. Thus comments range from its boring to its too Disneyesque. A true indication that its going to be a judgement call based on age and demographics as to its value cause there are no numbers to back up the predictions of economic benefit. Got kids? Phenomenal. Walk your dog? Outstanding. Use a walker or arrive on the bus? Maybe not so impressive. Live nearby and deal with the flotsam and jetsam? Irritating. Nonetheless, its practically free and they have little to complain about.

However, the Gathering is a project of its own and the Water in The River movement to me is only mildly connected to it. There is no physical connection, other than the pedestrian bridge and no opportunity to experience the river or use it imaginatively. Its just adding an expensive coat of paint to the background wall a fine piece of art is hanging on. It won't take long for folks to realize that the real benefit of the dams is to the casino and nearby Jenks.

No doubt the ponds will fill with sediment and no provision for dredging has been described. Soon the fertilizer and salt runoff will give them a nice green hue until, God forbid, they are scoured by one of those 100-300 year flood scenarios.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on August 15, 2014, 11:52:35 am
Isn't a big part of the plan to make the river accessible to park goers by sloping the land into the water?

(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Page8-1000x772.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on August 15, 2014, 11:53:36 am
However, the Gathering is a project of its own and the Water in The River movement to me is only mildly connected to it. There is no physical connection, other than the pedestrian bridge and no opportunity to experience the river or use it imaginatively. Its just adding an expensive coat of paint to the background wall a fine piece of art is hanging on. It won't take long for folks to realize that the real benefit of the dams is to the casino and nearby Jenks.

No doubt the ponds will fill with sediment and no provision for dredging has been described. Soon the fertilizer and salt runoff will give them a nice green hue until, God forbid, they are scoured by one of those 100-300 year flood scenarios.

No physical connection?  Part of the park goes right down to the water (Zink Lake) North of the pedestrian bridge.  There's even a section called Lake view Lawn, or something like that.  Assuming the Zink Lake dam gets fixed correctly and the danger element is alleviated, why wouldn't we see people kayaking on Zink Lake, or even kayak, canoe, paddle boat rentals, etc, along the lake?

Regarding sediment, that's a valid point, but my understanding is that part of repairing the gates on the dam is to allow them to be opened and to flush sediment down stream.  And somebody else help me out, but when lived at Westport in the late '80s, Zink Lake was full all the time and I don't remember it being massively polluted or overtly green.  I do remember the rowing crews out on it all the time, which was pretty cool.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on August 15, 2014, 01:09:27 pm
However, the Gathering is a project of its own and the Water in The River movement to me is only mildly connected to it. There is no physical connection, other than the pedestrian bridge and no opportunity to experience the river or use it imaginatively. Its just adding an expensive coat of paint to the background wall a fine piece of art is hanging on. It won't take long for folks to realize that the real benefit of the dams is to the casino and nearby Jenks.

The gathering place goes all the way down to the river, including walking paths and trails at water level. Riverside Drive goes under the park.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 15, 2014, 02:26:03 pm
The gathering place goes all the way down to the river, including walking paths and trails at water level. Riverside Drive goes under the park.

I've seen the renderings. Those walking paths, trails and a bridge over Riverside Drive are already there. I don't think you're with me. There is no real active connection with the river other than what is already there. The river might as well be filled in with concrete, painted blue and made into a skate park for all its relevance to the Gathering Place. (I hope the young Lortons don't get any ideas from that....)

Had they allowed for a white water rafting area, a sluice that allowed the lakes to be interconnected, a moveable fishing platform, a water flume from the park to the river, zip lines, whatever, you would have some reason for building or elevating that dam and some reason to believe it would have economic impact. As planned it has absolutely nothing to do with the dams other than backdrop.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on August 15, 2014, 03:04:18 pm
I've seen the renderings. Those walking paths, trails and a bridge over Riverside Drive are already there. I don't think you're with me. There is no real active connection with the river other than what is already there. The river might as well be filled in with concrete, painted blue and made into a skate park for all its relevance to the Gathering Place. (I hope the young Lortons don't get any ideas from that....)

I must have missed these last time I went to riverside. Also missed the two giant land bridges over riverside drive and the bridge over Crow Creek with the waterside walking trails that take you from Riverside down crow creek.

(http://cl.ly/image/2o2P1R1U2a1I/Page67-1000x772.jpg)
(http://cl.ly/image/0Z1f0E3B3D11/Page58-1000x772.jpg)http://(http://cl.ly/image/130K2I3G3G2F/Page63-1000x772.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on August 15, 2014, 04:10:32 pm
I've seen the renderings. Those walking paths, trails and a bridge over Riverside Drive are already there. I don't think you're with me. There is no real active connection with the river other than what is already there. The river might as well be filled in with concrete, painted blue and made into a skate park for all its relevance to the Gathering Place. (I hope the young Lortons don't get any ideas from that....)

Had they allowed for a white water rafting area, a sluice that allowed the lakes to be interconnected, a moveable fishing platform, a water flume from the park to the river, zip lines, whatever, you would have some reason for building or elevating that dam and some reason to believe it would have economic impact. As planned it has absolutely nothing to do with the dams other than backdrop.

Sorry Aqua, but you are so biased against the dams that you can't even acknowledge that the river is an integral design factor for the park.  Or even that a lot of people would prefer lakes to an unstable, often-dry, and unusable river channel running right next to one of the largest recreational areas in the city.   I'm not sure where it's coming from, but I don't understand the level of antipathy you have for the dams.   Not trying to be rude, honestly, but I just don't get it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 15, 2014, 04:20:37 pm
I must have missed these last time I went to riverside. Also missed the two giant land bridges over riverside drive and the bridge over Crow Creek with the waterside walking trails that take you from Riverside down crow creek.

(http://cl.ly/image/2o2P1R1U2a1I/Page67-1000x772.jpg)
(http://cl.ly/image/0Z1f0E3B3D11/Page58-1000x772.jpg)http://(http://cl.ly/image/130K2I3G3G2F/Page63-1000x772.jpg)

You're being kind of dense. Or just smart donkey. There is no interaction with the adjacent river other than to walk or bike past it, just like you can now.

You don't want to address that fine. I love the park and love its a freebie. The dams are going to be expensive and useless.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 15, 2014, 04:38:37 pm
Sorry Aqua, but you are so biased against the dams that you can't even acknowledge that the river is an integral design factor for the park.  Or even that a lot of people would prefer lakes to an unstable, often-dry, and unusable river channel running right next to one of the largest recreational areas in the city.   I'm not sure where it's coming from, but I don't understand the level of antipathy you have for the dams.   Not trying to be rude, honestly, but I just don't get it.


What are you sorry for? I supported the dams in the previous elections. So, I am not biased. I am seeing them from a different perspective than you guys, though thats for sure. I offered in the past to conduct a trip from the Keystone Dam down to Zink Lake on my canoes and kayaks so that people on here could see what they are doing and pick my brain. No takers. I offered a ride on a double decker English bus that would or could have enlightened some folks around here. Once again no takers. Its feeling a bit personal and yet I am on record with my background while others I feel are not so forthcoming.

How many of you have fished, swam, boated, researched, promoted, invested in or otherwise utilized the river? Who has had direct experience with the new caretaker of the Gathering Place, RPA? Other than myself, I know of two, Conan and V2025. I will ask them, have my views changed? Am I anti-river development? Haven't I been open to discussion and flexible in my views on the river?

We could have such a vibrant river, canoing, kayaking, interactive science, zip lines, swimming, .....fun stuff. But folks are so thankful that a foundation has fulfilled its mission by donating funds to improve its local community that they feel any criticism is tantamount to crazy. I suggest you step back and look at what was presented to you and by who. Who stands to benefit most and why no economic numbers have been forthcoming. Then, most importantly, ask how it was presented to you. It wasn't, "What could we do with money from V2025," but "here's what we're doing with V2025 money, what kind of imput do you have?". Any salesman will tell you, you've just been had.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on August 15, 2014, 07:06:01 pm
So what Aqualad is saying is that if you aren't IN the water, either personally or in a watercraft, there is no reason to be near it or improve it.

A Gathering place brings people down to the waterfront, within inches of contacting the water, but since they don't get wet, it doesn't count.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 15, 2014, 07:16:01 pm
So what Aqualad is saying is that if you aren't IN the water, either personally or in a watercraft, there is no reason to be near it or improve it.

A Gathering place brings people down to the waterfront, within inches of contacting the water, but since they don't get wet, it doesn't count.

The current Riverparks paths and bridges, bring people down to the waterfront, within inches of contacting the water, but since the water is not deep enough to be picture perfect year round, it doesn't count. We must spend $160,000,000 and reinforce levees, to get full enjoyment of the Gathering Place.

Grizz, spin it however you desire. You're ignoring my points in favor of sarcasm (cause your arguments are weak I guess). Go forth and spread the message. I won't be living here by the time the dams are built anyway but my renters will. I'll raise the rent to help you all out.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on August 15, 2014, 07:45:05 pm
Grizz, spin it however you desire. You're ignoring my points in favor of sarcasm (cause your arguments are weak I guess). Go forth and spread the message. I won't be living here by the time the dams are built anyway but my renters will. I'll raise the rent to help you all out.

Why not just get out of Tulsa completely?  Sell the place and not have to put up with renters.

That aside, I agree that merely putting water in the river is not a cure for Tulsa's "problems".


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 16, 2014, 07:01:38 am
So what Aqualad is saying is that if you aren't IN the water, either personally or in a watercraft, there is no reason to be near it or improve it.

A Gathering place brings people down to the waterfront, within inches of contacting the water, but since they don't get wet, it doesn't count.


That makes no sense at all. 

Seems like you are in favor of Gathering place - ok.  Dams?  Why?  Again, not just to you, but to anyone/everyone...since no one has ever answered other than deflection/dissemination...what is a dam gonna do that couldn't be done now?  And how will it succeed any better than Riverwalk?  (Hint; it won't if as poorly implemented.)

If those pictures are the way it turns out, it should be very nice and could be quite popular!  With or without water.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 16, 2014, 07:06:23 am
Why not just get out of Tulsa completely?  Sell the place and not have to put up with renters.

 


Let's take that a step further; why don't all the 'aliens' sell out and leave it to people born here?  End the cycle of "imports" coming here, draining the state of resources, then taking their plunder and leaving to retire elsewhere....

Kinda sounds like the "Patriot Patrols" there, doesn't it?  Yankee Carpetbaggers coming to the southern tier of states fretting and stewing about illegals coming here and "ruining" their way of life....  Irony.


Chuckle....





Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on August 16, 2014, 09:46:31 am

Other than myself, I know of two, Conan and V2025. I will ask them, have my views changed? Am I anti-river development? Haven't I been open to discussion and flexible in my views on the river?


No, no, yes.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 16, 2014, 04:08:40 pm
Why not just get out of Tulsa completely?  Sell the place and not have to put up with renters.

That aside, I agree that merely putting water in the river is not a cure for Tulsa's "problems".

"Get out of Tulsa" sounds a bit tough. I guess I could move to Bixby! Or Mounds. I just figure that by the time the park is built, the dams are built and the dust settles, I'm likely to be forced out of my home by the immense increase in appraised value (since I live a mere block from the Katy running path) that will skyrocket my ad valorem tax. So, I'll rent the place out and look for greener pastures.





Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on August 16, 2014, 04:25:10 pm
"Get out of Tulsa" sounds a bit tough. I guess I could move to Bixby! Or Mounds. I just figure that by the time the park is built, the dams are built and the dust settles, I'm likely to be forced out of my home by the immense increase in appraised value (since I live a mere block from the Katy running path) that will skyrocket my ad valorem tax. So, I'll rent the place out and look for greener pastures.

My misunderstanding.  I thought you were getting fed up with Tulsa and the area and just wanted out.  I understand the tax thing.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 16, 2014, 04:45:53 pm
No, no, yes.

Thank you.

This morning I ran along the river as I have since 1975. My current favorite route is across the 23rd street bridge, then north to the 66 bridge then back south along Riverside, then back up 21st to the Katy path (wrong name I'm sure, its just what I call it). When I crossed the first bridge and looked south I had a mental epiphony. The river area is no longer mine to selfishly covet. All that's left is one mile along the cement plant, rowing crew and apartments that's even close to my old path memories. I miss the creaky wooden bridge.

It belongs to a much younger generation now that sees the world differently than we did. We ran the paths with roller skaters, bums, fishermen, fitness enthusiasts and a few walkers with dogs. Most dogs ran loose. Our running shorts were embarrassingly short and our athletic socks way too high. We wore headbands. But everyone seemed fairly happy and because there was little parking most river folks lived in apartments nearby. Downtown really was dangerous after dark and we had 35000 people working there. The river was popular and very bohemian. Our leaders were James Jones, Mike Synar, David Boren, the Elder LaFortune, Betsy Horowitz, Ms Eagleton and Inhofe.

Now its bikes, strollers, runners with dogs, groups of runners, groups of bicyclists and a few walkers all with some sort of electronics attached. Most seem to be punishing themselves for some reason. To find a smiling face you have to run before 8am or over 100 degrees. Not as many bums and everything seems so neat, the paths too good to be true and imo, pretty boring. Now downtown is safer, and bohemian. Now its Coburn, Britenstein, Mullin, Bartlett, Blake and....Inhofe. That's a big change in ideology if you're not familiar with those names.

Up to now, we've voted down river issue after issue regardless of politics or politicians. Only Inhofe's creative determination to by pass the public's will and do what he thought was best enabled the Zink lake dam to be built. His best move as a politician imo. Sand Springs built one as well though I don't know how. I didn't pay much attention back then because I was recently out of college, divorced and into establishing myself in some way. We ran and played there without water, we ran and played there when water arrived. Water in the river was inconsequential.

So, the thing is that every young generation gets to choose the mistakes and the brilliance they want to be known for. At least till you're 45.  I don't support this one because of my hands on experience with the river and the lack of water activity this plan has. Not just a little activity....none. That and the poor economics, outside of the casino, and its potential ecological pitfalls keeps me from embracing it. I don't care about the taxes as you know. If it could generate cash, I'm in. If it relies on increased ad valorem, nay.

But I won't campaign against it, nor will I repeat myself. Good luck with it, research Coffeyville, Kansas and buy yourself a canoe. 16 ft is good enough.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on August 16, 2014, 05:21:14 pm
What are you sorry for? I supported the dams in the previous elections. So, I am not biased. I am seeing them from a different perspective than you guys, though thats for sure. I offered in the past to conduct a trip from the Keystone Dam down to Zink Lake on my canoes and kayaks so that people on here could see what they are doing and pick my brain. No takers. I offered a ride on a double decker English bus that would or could have enlightened some folks around here. Once again no takers. Its feeling a bit personal and yet I am on record with my background while others I feel are not so forthcoming.

How many of you have fished, swam, boated, researched, promoted, invested in or otherwise utilized the river? Who has had direct experience with the new caretaker of the Gathering Place, RPA? Other than myself, I know of two, Conan and V2025. I will ask them, have my views changed? Am I anti-river development? Haven't I been open to discussion and flexible in my views on the river?

We could have such a vibrant river, canoing, kayaking, interactive science, zip lines, swimming, .....fun stuff. But folks are so thankful that a foundation has fulfilled its mission by donating funds to improve its local community that they feel any criticism is tantamount to crazy. I suggest you step back and look at what was presented to you and by who. Who stands to benefit most and why no economic numbers have been forthcoming. Then, most importantly, ask how it was presented to you. It wasn't, "What could we do with money from V2025," but "here's what we're doing with V2025 money, what kind of imput do you have?". Any salesman will tell you, you've just been had.

Your bitterness against RPA is well known. And I certainly don't recall you being in favor of the last river vote. I recall you greatly arguing in favor in keep the river in its current (yet unnatural) state. You repeatedly professed your love of the "braided prairie  river" if I recall correctly.

And while RPA will be the owner of the park, they will not run it. The foundation that runs Guthrie Green will run it.

Quote
The complicated legal transaction approved Thursday leaves River Parks as the owner of 58.37 acres of new park land on which Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will be constructed. The GKFF Parks Conservancy LLC will be responsible for the programming, operation and maintenance of the park.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepage3/kaiser-foundation-donates-a-gathering-place-to-river-parks-authority/article_6091fc55-f5ed-52e2-b381-bed1abd8d474.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 16, 2014, 06:49:18 pm
Not true. Contact Kirby Crowe and review posts. I supported the last program after having pie with him, reviewing his renderings and discussing issues. Yes, I do love braided rivers.

Also do yourself some research. The foundation may control the park, but not the river and the paths. Never will. RPA owns nothing. It is public land under the auspices of the county, the city and surrounding cities.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 17, 2014, 08:52:28 am
Your bitterness against RPA is well known. And I certainly don't recall you being in favor of the last river vote. I recall you greatly arguing in favor in keep the river in its current (yet unnatural) state. You repeatedly professed your love of the "braided prairie  river" if I recall correctly.

And while RPA will be the owner of the park, they will not run it. The foundation that runs Guthrie Green will run it.



Are you saying that since it isn't in its "natural state" we should just go ahead with any ole nonsense idea that comes along? 

This Gathering looks like it could be good.  With or without water in the sand pit.  If it won't succeed without water, then another dam won't make it work in and of itself.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on August 17, 2014, 09:44:33 am
Not true. Contact Kirby Crowe and review posts. I supported the last program after having pie with him, reviewing his renderings and discussing issues. Yes, I do love braided rivers.

Also do yourself some research. The foundation may control the park, but not the river and the paths. Never will. RPA owns nothing. It is public land under the auspices of the county, the city and surrounding cities.

So you got bought off for a piece of pie.

Go reread my post and see if RPA owns anything, maybe the World got it wrong, maybe not.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on August 17, 2014, 02:24:13 pm
So you got bought off for a piece of pie.

Go reread my post and see if RPA owns anything, maybe the World got it wrong, maybe not.


Bought off? You are an arrogant prick. You don't read my posts for comprehension and you and Grizz cherry pick from them while ignoring the points you can't answer. Why would I pay any attention to either of you? Oh, yeah. I won't. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on August 17, 2014, 03:52:53 pm
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110605100043/marvel_dc/images/7/7b/Aquaman_0072.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Ed W on August 17, 2014, 04:49:04 pm
Wow. Usually they tell kids they'll go blind or at least have to wear glasses. But it actually turns your fist to water. Who knew?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on August 17, 2014, 07:12:46 pm
Bought off? You are an arrogant prick. You don't read my posts for comprehension and you and Grizz cherry pick from them while ignoring the points you can't answer. Why would I pay any attention to either of you? Oh, yeah. I won't.  

He was one of the whiners after the tax grab failed I keep referring to.  Kaiser’s money was gone forever because of our short-sightedness.

Fast-forward seven years and looks like before it’s all said and done Kaiser will put at least $400mm into river projects.  More than twice what he committed to the package back then.

Guys like you and I weren’t bought off.  We were ignored.  No one wanted the input of anyone with intimate knowledge of practical uses of the river as i recall.  Do you concur?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on August 21, 2014, 09:06:01 am
Some of those pictures look like  everything is going to be crowded in, too much going on. Why not let there be more open space without all those bridges and walkways all over the place. For me the only thing I use the Riverparks for is the jogging trails, I'm no fan of all sorts of frills, bells and whistles- But that's just me. Just give me a good trail to jog on and I'm happy.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on August 21, 2014, 10:46:51 am
Bought off? You are an arrogant prick. You don't read my posts for comprehension and you and Grizz cherry pick from them while ignoring the points you can't answer. Why would I pay any attention to either of you? Oh, yeah. I won't. 

Calm down Susan, it was a joke.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on August 21, 2014, 10:49:04 am
He was one of the whiners after the tax grab failed I keep referring to.  Kaiser’s money was gone forever because of our short-sightedness.

Fast-forward seven years and looks like before it’s all said and done Kaiser will put at least $400mm into river projects.  More than twice what he committed to the package back then.

Guys like you and I weren’t bought off.  We were ignored.  No one wanted the input of anyone with intimate knowledge of practical uses of the river as i recall.  Do you concur?
There's still no water in the river and we are about to vote again.

That said, in hindsight I'm glad it failed. I was always unsure of the retail thing on the west side, I worried it might sap the momentum from downtown and with the Great Recession it might have done that and also left us with an empty, expensive eyesore.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on August 29, 2014, 11:26:11 am
Area Leaders Tour Low Water Dam Sites and the Levees

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/area-leaders-tour-low-water-dam-sites-and-levees (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/area-leaders-tour-low-water-dam-sites-and-levees)

Quote
The river task force takes a bus tour of the sites for proposed low-water dams and the levee system along the Arkansas. Tulsa City Councilor Jeannie Cue’s district includes much of the east and west river bank area. County and city leaders went along on the tour, and Cue says that’s important because all jurisdictions involved have to be on the same page.

A tax is being considered that would impact citizens in communities affected by projects that would help keep water in the river.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5uD1padeIk[/youtube]


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Arkansas Rio Gator on September 09, 2014, 06:46:42 pm
"Federal grant OK'd for Riverside Drive improvements"

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/federal-grant-ok-d-for-riverside-drive-improvements/article_f0fde191-e253-5ec5-b528-f7a64075e04f.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 10, 2014, 12:03:45 pm
"Federal grant OK'd for Riverside Drive improvements"

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/federal-grant-ok-d-for-riverside-drive-improvements/article_f0fde191-e253-5ec5-b528-f7a64075e04f.html

So the land bridge went away or just not covered by the grant?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on September 10, 2014, 12:59:38 pm
So the land bridge went away or just not covered by the grant?

What I surmise from the story is that the TIGER grant covers the road repairs and top bicycle deck of the pedestrian bridge (to create one deck for wheels and one for feet).

The Land bridge will be funded by the foundation and the private donations and construction will start on the land bridge before the work on Riverside Drive begins sometime next spring (pending final approval of the grant review). Seems like the foundation hoped to get the land bridge funded in as part of the TIGER so they could spend money on "something else"...no idea what "something else" would have been.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 15, 2014, 11:46:06 am
I don't understand why it's so important to have water in the river, it's only for looks anyhow and with a $80 million dollar price tag a dry river looks better & better all the time. It's not worth spending all that money just to see water in the river. Let it be dry. IMO the G.P. is over kill anyhow looks like a over glorified 41st street playground to me. The trails at RiverSide are the most important thing not the frills IMO of course.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on September 15, 2014, 11:52:23 am
I don't understand why it's so important to have water in the river, it's only for looks anyhow and with a $80 million dollar price tag a dry river looks better & better all the time. It's not worth spending all that money just to see water in the river. Let it be dry. IMO the G.P. is over kill anyhow looks like a over glorified 41st street playground to me. The trails at RiverSide are the most important thing not the frills IMO of course.

Shouldn't matter to someone who doesn't live here.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 15, 2014, 12:01:29 pm
Shouldn't matter to someone who doesn't live here.
No it would not. However, This about us residents who do live here and are facing an extra $80 Million dollars for water in the pond. IMO for that kind of loot, let it be dry we are already used to a dry river as it is. Too much money. Focus on doing the Zink Dam and be done with it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 15, 2014, 12:01:53 pm
IMO of course.

your opinion is doodoo


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 15, 2014, 01:16:37 pm
I don't understand why it's so important to have water in the river, it's only for looks anyhow and with a $80 million dollar price tag a dry river looks better & better all the time. It's not worth spending all that money just to see water in the river. Let it be dry. IMO the G.P. is over kill anyhow looks like a over glorified 41st street playground to me. The trails at RiverSide are the most important thing not the frills IMO of course.


Oh, carp!!!!   Now I'm gonna have to start supporting a dam dam.....



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on September 18, 2014, 06:44:20 am
Fence went up last week. The little cut through between the neighborhood and the River trails parking lot at 30th and Boston Pl has been blocked. You either have to go down to 31st St (no sidewalk) or get on the trail at 24th or 21st.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 19, 2014, 11:29:26 am
Information on Tomorrow's 'Gathering Place' Ground Breaking

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/information-tomorrows-gathering-place-ground-breaking (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/information-tomorrows-gathering-place-ground-breaking)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201409/GP_map.jpg)

Ground will be broken tomorrow for  'A Gathering Place for Tulsa'. It will begin tomorrow at 10 a.m.   Wear your picnic attire, walk the grounds with family and friends, and imagine the future that awaits Tulsa. Children will have the opportunity to participate in the noon groundbreaking ceremony!

Local Tulsa food trucks will be on site, kids and family activities will include a giant tape tunnel from the Tulsa Children’s Museum, hula hooping and more.

LIVE MUSIC PERFORMANCES

Red Dirt Rangers (Kid’s Show)
DJ Spencer LG
Full Flava Kings
Special performances by the KIPP Tulsa Marching Band and Union Renegade Regiment
FOOD TRUCKS

Andolini’s
Cactus Jacks
Doghouse
Fourays Eatery
Hoop’s
Jared’s Pro Pops
John’s Diggity Dogs
Josh’s Snow Shack
Jubilee Concessions
Klemm’s Smoke Haus
Local Table
Lola’s
Mangiamo’s
Masa
Mod’s
Mr. Nice Guys
Pita Place
True Bean Ice Cream Rescue
Wings on Fire
ACTIVITIES

Tulsa City-County Library – Bookmobile and Story Time
Tulsa Children’s Museum – Tape Tunnels
Woody Guthrie Center – Cornhole and Sing-alongs
SUP Oklahoma, LLC – Balancing Activities and Paddling Simulations
Tulsa Fire Department – Fire Truck to play on
Tulsa Roughnecks FC – Soccer Activities
Tulsa Ballet – Dance Activities
Tulsa Zoo – Art Project with Animal Skins and Competitions to compare speed/strength to animals
Tulsa Opera -Preview of Cinderella show
Tulsa Performing Arts Center Trust – Giant Puppets
Arts & Humanities Council of Tulsa – Potted Plants Art Project
Oklahoma Museum Network – Mobile Museum
Oklahoma Aquarium – Arts and Crafts
Come Play – Hula Hooping, Giant Twister, Art Project on large Canvas
Manhattan Construction – Construction Equipment to play on
YMCA – Family Circus (Trapeze), pickup soccer
Zarrow Center for Art and Education – Pinwheel Art Activities
First Tee Tulsa – Snag Golf with Velcro and Tennis Balls
FabLab Tulsa – Interactive Activity
PARKING

Public Parkingwill be available between Cheyenne Ave. and Detroit Ave. from 9th St. to 13th St.

Nonstop shuttles will escort guests from parking areas to the Groundbreaking Celebration site at the following locations:

10th and Cincinnati Ave
10th and Main St.
 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on September 19, 2014, 11:43:54 am
Information on Tomorrow's 'Gathering Place' Ground Breaking

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/information-tomorrows-gathering-place-ground-breaking (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/information-tomorrows-gathering-place-ground-breaking)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201409/GP_map.jpg)

Ground will be broken tomorrow for  'A Gathering Place for Tulsa'. It will begin tomorrow at 10 a.m.   Wear your picnic attire, walk the grounds with family and friends, and imagine the future that awaits Tulsa. Children will have the opportunity to participate in the noon groundbreaking ceremony!

Interesting concept... Drive from suburbia to downtown to take a shuttle to suburbia.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 19, 2014, 11:49:25 am
Interesting concept... Drive from suburbia to downtown to take a shuttle to suburbia.



There has to be an answer to the "Weren't no parkin'" folk.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on September 19, 2014, 12:03:25 pm
Interesting concept... Drive from suburbia to downtown to take a shuttle to suburbia.



31st & Riverside is Suburbia?

Where do you live, farmland?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 19, 2014, 12:32:17 pm

Where do you live, farmland?

Bixby, yes


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on September 19, 2014, 04:32:08 pm
31st & Riverside is Suburbia?

Where do you live, farmland?

Urban: http://goo.gl/maps/32dXk

Not quite so urban: http://goo.gl/maps/3obSX

Room for a garage that doesn't face the street: http://goo.gl/maps/87ym9

Farmland: http://goo.gl/maps/XASy2









Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on September 20, 2014, 06:56:00 pm
There are two general "concepts"/definitions of what suburban means.  Context can inform which is the intended.  When the conversation is urban versus suburban, then suburban in this context you can infer that your talking about the "type" of built environment (urban= pedestrian/transit friendly) (suburban= auto centric).  When your just talking about whether an area is "urbanized" (or urban versus rural) your generally talking about whether it has buildings on it.  And if you really want to get picky about it, you can even have an area full of high-rises and skyscrapers and it not be considered urban, but suburban.  Much of Dallas can fit that bill.  Lots of buildings but not pedestrian or transit friendly type development.  While some smaller towns can have shorter buildings but be quite urban.

What kind of development, versus whether its developed on or not, regardless of the type.   

Kind of like by definition "All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

We generally call a place like BA suburban because of the nature of it's built environment, which is "below urban, or suburban".  That must necessarily indicate that there is a built form that is different from that, "above it" or urban.
Though the neighborhoods around the park there by the river are quite nice, they aren't really much different otherwise than some suburban neighborhoods in BA.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on September 20, 2014, 07:26:15 pm
Went to the groundbreaking today. Tons of stuff to do, and they had signs all around showing where the features are going to be. There is also a 306degree theater giving a demo, but the line was longer than the iPhone line.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on September 20, 2014, 08:01:02 pm
Went to the groundbreaking today. Tons of stuff to do, and they had signs all around showing where the features are going to be. There is also a 306degree theater giving a demo, but the line was longer than the iPhone line.

306 deg? Typo?



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 21, 2014, 01:39:46 pm
The Gathering Place according to Sundays newspaper will be a big project. I thought it was only going to be something like a over glorified playground on a big patch of green. It looks like they will even be re-doing RiverSide Drive. The article said it'll take 5-7 years to finish the whole thing and just  phase one won't be done till 2017. This is a huge undertaking.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 21, 2014, 01:41:29 pm
I wonder who thunk up the name "Gathering Place"? It seems to me  they could of came up with a better name. Oh well.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: ZYX on September 21, 2014, 03:58:13 pm
You have long criticized this project, and you had never before taken the time to actually find out what if was?

That tells me all I need to know about your stance as a "Proud Global Warming Deiner (sic)."


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 21, 2014, 08:04:59 pm
I wonder who thunk up the name "Gathering Place"? It seems to me  they could of came up with a better name. Oh well.


Given all the facts of the project and your "concern" about it, the name is obviously perfect.  Oh well....

I second what ZYX said.  You ARE absolutely a Rush fan! 

WWRD?   What Would Rush Do?  Same as you - jump to ill-considering, uninformed, totally invalid conclusions based on no information whatsoever.  Don't you ever get tired of being soooo wrong, sooo much of the time??





Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on September 21, 2014, 09:00:14 pm
You have long criticized this project, and you had never before taken the time to actually find out what if was?

That tells me all I need to know about your stance as a "Proud Global Warming Deiner (sic)."

Deiner, isn’t that the poor guy who pushes the gurneys around at the morgue? 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on September 21, 2014, 10:42:53 pm
I wonder who thunk up the name "Gathering Place"? It seems to me  they could of came up with a better name. Oh well.

I believe it's a temporary "production name" 
I think I heard there'll be a naming contest


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on September 22, 2014, 05:49:47 am
I believe it's a temporary "production name" 
I think I heard there'll be a naming contest

Guthrie Green was called "Brady Park" until close to completion.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on September 22, 2014, 05:50:51 am
306 deg? Typo?



Yes, typo

It's a 360 degree room, but the images are 270. Freudian Algebra.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on September 22, 2014, 09:54:55 am
The Gathering Place according to Sundays newspaper will be a big project. I thought it was only going to be something like a over glorified playground on a big patch of green. It looks like they will even be re-doing RiverSide Drive. The article said it'll take 5-7 years to finish the whole thing and just  phase one won't be done till 2017. This is a huge undertaking.

Did you ever look at the models and renderings?  Have you ever noticed the price tag?  How many hundreds of millions of dollars does it need to be before you yourself might consider it a "big" project all on your own without the paper having to tell you it was lol?

Earlier this year or late last year it was in the national media that a philanthropist donated 100 million to NYC's central park and it was touted as the largest donation of its kind to a city park in the nations history.  I suppose what happens in Tulsa probably doesn't register to the national media types but Kaisers donation to this park trumped that by quite a bit. Plus what others have donated to this park. Then add to all of that what Kaiser has donated over the years to River Parks and other parks in Tulsa really is incredible. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 22, 2014, 11:34:49 am
Did you ever look at the models and renderings?  Have you ever noticed the price tag?  How many hundreds of millions of dollars does it need to be before you yourself might consider it a "big" project all on your own without the paper having to tell you it was lol?

Earlier this year or late last year it was in the national media that a philanthropist donated 100 million to NYC's central park and it was touted as the largest donation of its kind to a city park in the nations history.  I suppose what happens in Tulsa probably doesn't register to the national media types but Kaisers donation to this park trumped that by quite a bit. Plus what others have donated to this park. Then add to all of that what Kaiser has donated over the years to River Parks and other parks in Tulsa really is incredible. 
I work  long hours and don't have time to follow every city project, it did not seem like it was that big on maps of the area. My main focus has been the Jogging Trails since I'm a jogging nut. As long as the trails are there I'm happy!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 22, 2014, 06:41:22 pm
I work  long hours and don't have time to follow every city project, it did not seem like it was that big on maps of the area. My main focus has been the Jogging Trails since I'm a jogging nut. As long as the trails are there I'm happy!


So....what you are saying is that since you don't have time to follow every city project, you really had little - in fact, no - understanding of the project at all.  And yet, somehow  you had formed a negative opinion about it.


Maybe if you HAD spent an amount of time studying it, knew something about what you were talking about... well, then maybe you could have helped them come up with a better name....  huh, imagine that...?



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on September 22, 2014, 08:41:34 pm
The Gathering Place according to Sundays newspaper will be a big project. I thought it was only going to be something like a over glorified playground on a big patch of green. It looks like they will even be re-doing RiverSide Drive. The article said it'll take 5-7 years to finish the whole thing and just  phase one won't be done till 2017. This is a huge undertaking.

This project is over $300M at this point.

That's a hell of a swing set.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: joiei on September 22, 2014, 08:45:25 pm
I work  long hours and don't have time to follow every city project, it did not seem like it was that big on maps of the area. My main focus has been the Jogging Trails since I'm a jogging nut. As long as the trails are there I'm happy!
So in other words it is all about don't inconvience me. Me, me, me.  Their are other trails you know.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on September 22, 2014, 10:18:48 pm
The Board of Adjustment on Tuesday afternoon will consider a proposal to build an office building on the northeast corner of 31st Street and Boston Place to be used as the construction management and security facility during construction of A Gathering Place For Tulsa park.
According to the application, the facility would be in place for up to five years. Submitted plans show it would be surrounded by an 8-foot-high wooden fence and medium height landscaping. Plans are to begin construction of the building this fall.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepage3/proposed-facility-for-a-gathering-place-has-some-residents-upset/article_9b273d5f-b801-5b80-8370-641f5ce49ec1.html


No mention of the all-night prison-yard floodlighting?   It will only be there 5-10 years.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 23, 2014, 09:25:01 am
So in other words it is all about don't inconvience me. Me, me, me.  Their are other trails you know.

I really have no intrest in city projects, I'm divorced and my kids are well grown up so I don't follow the building of a new park, it's private money for the most part but the river dams will be taxpayer money. Sure, There are other trails but the Riverside Trails are the most handy for me to use, the Mingo Trails  offer  no place to park, I don't run on the streets cars and people don't mix... It's not just about me, the jogging trails are most popular reason people use RiverSide Park,  hundreds of people use the jogging trails-- Anyhow it seems like it'll be quite a project when it's totally done in 2020. :)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 23, 2014, 11:25:11 am
I'm divorced

No smile


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on September 23, 2014, 11:51:48 am
No smile

Ouch.

I am sure his divorce had nothing to do with him smelling like saurkraut.

I know my divorces weren't.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on September 23, 2014, 12:22:40 pm
Name it 'The Kaiser'



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 23, 2014, 12:31:21 pm
Name it 'The Kaiser'

Thinking of cross promotion possibilities?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on September 23, 2014, 01:21:02 pm
Name it 'The Kaiser'

He's on a roll.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on September 23, 2014, 02:07:42 pm
Maybe we could let Friendly Bear back in to make some anti-semitic remarks about Herr Kaiser.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on September 23, 2014, 03:08:40 pm
Maybe we could let Friendly Bear back in to make some anti-semitic remarks about Herr Kaiser.

LOL.  I forgot about that guy.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on September 23, 2014, 03:45:24 pm
LOL.  I forgot about that guy.

Oh, he and the ones like him are still around, mostly on the Tulsa World’s cesspool of a comments section.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 24, 2014, 09:26:34 am
After watching that video of the 3-D Model on post #477 dated Sept. 09th, 2014. The Gathering Place looks like a carnival midway or like  a big playground for kids, with play  nets, climbing walls, this thing  & that thing  for the kids, the whole area looks crammed in too. There seems very little for adults to do there, no mention of a parking area either, it seems to me they could of thunk up something better to put there aside from just a big playground for kids. Not much "green" area there either everything is clustered together.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 24, 2014, 09:29:40 am
After watching that video of the 3-D Model on post #477 dated Sept. 09th, 2014. The Gathering Place looks like a carnival midway or like  a big playground for kids, with play  nets, climbing walls, this thing  & that thing  for the kids, the whole area looks crammed in too. There seems very little for adults to do there, no mention of a parking area either, it seems to me they could of thunk up something better to put there aside from just a big playground for kids. Not much "green" area there either everything is clustered together.

Sweet baby Jesus...just don't go.

Whether you're a made up persona or not, you do more damage to this forum than most.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on September 24, 2014, 09:42:15 am
.... it seems to me they could of thunk up something better to put there aside from just a big playground for kids. Not much "green" area there either everything is clustered together.

There is just so much fail in that one sentence alone, not to mention your whole reply.  Do you understand why people don't take you seriously?

Please stop.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: shavethewhales on September 24, 2014, 09:42:37 am
The Gathering Place looks like a carnival midway

LOL, the things some people say. Comments like need to be collected so that down the road, if or when we get another world class development proposal we can remember that a good majority of internet commentors simply don't have a clue.

As young professional who just moved to Tulsa permanently a few months ago, this park is one of the few things that is giving me hope for the future of this city. I hope it will become a flashpoint that will help the younger generation realize that we don't have to put up with the crappy developments that the baby boomers are leaving behind. World class things can exist in Tulsa, even if half the local yokals won't recognize it or downplay it because they don't understand it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 24, 2014, 09:47:08 am

As young professional who just moved to Tulsa permanently a few months ago, this park is one of the few things that is giving me hope for the future of this city. I hope it will become a flashpoint that will help the younger generation realize that we don't have to put up with the crappy developments that the baby boomers are leaving behind.

Ditto - middle-aged and lived here for 30 years.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on September 24, 2014, 10:05:04 am
LOL, the things some people say. Comments like need to be collected so that down the road, if or when we get another world class development proposal we can remember that a good majority of internet commentors simply don't have a clue.

As young professional who just moved to Tulsa permanently a few months ago, this park is one of the few things that is giving me hope for the future of this city. I hope it will become a flashpoint that will help the younger generation realize that we don't have to put up with the crappy developments that the baby boomers are leaving behind. World class things can exist in Tulsa, even if half the local yokals won't recognize it or downplay it because they don't understand it.

Shave,

I’m borrowing from another thread, But out of curiosity, do you think young professionals like yourself would rather have a large outlet mall on the SW corner of Turkey Mountain or pristine wilderness to explore and enjoy?  Just curious if that’s one of the quality of life issues YP’s are looking for when they decide where to locate.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on September 24, 2014, 11:35:06 am
World class things can exist in Tulsa, even if half the local yokals won't recognize it or downplay it because they don't understand it.

That'll win you a few new friends.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on September 24, 2014, 11:36:53 am
Ditto - middle-aged and lived here for 30 years.

30 years qualifies you as a "local yokal" although I'm sure you think more highly of yourself. (As will all the "local yokals".)

 :D



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 24, 2014, 02:24:02 pm
30 years qualifies you as a "local yokal" although I'm sure you think more highly of yourself. (As will all the "local yokals".)



Yeah, don't care.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 25, 2014, 09:38:49 am
Ya know this Gathering Place  project reminds me a bit of  Boston's "Big Dig" 10 or 15 years ago - anyone remember what a mess that was for Boston residents, they re-worked a whole section of the city and moved many things underground. That took about 7 years to complete I believe. http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/thebigdig/projectbackground.aspx


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 25, 2014, 09:51:03 am
Ya know this Gathering Place  project reminds me a bit of  Boston's "Big Dig" 10 or 15 years ago - anyone remember what a mess that was for Boston residents, they re-worked a whole section of the city and moved many things underground. That took about 7 years to complete I believe. http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/thebigdig/projectbackground.aspx

It's like you're the eighth one.  "Dumbass Dwarf" - using your pick to mine for stupid. 

Snow White would've suffocated you in your sleep and buried you in your tiny little bed.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on September 25, 2014, 09:54:07 am
Ya know this Gathering Place  project reminds me a bit of  Boston's "Big Dig" 10 or 15 years ago - anyone remember what a mess that was for Boston residents, they re-worked a whole section of the city and moved many things underground. That took about 7 years to complete I believe. http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/thebigdig/projectbackground.aspx

Did you know any Boston residents impacted by this?  I did.  Was it a pain?  Sure.  In the long run however, it was worth the wait, or so my Boston acquaintances told me.  Building a tunnel under a body of water that is that long is not an easy task.  And even after they completed it there were leaking issues.

I can't believe you compared a beautification project to a tunnel.  Well, it's you, so I guess I can.  You're like my ADHD nephew...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on September 25, 2014, 09:56:20 am
It's like you're the eighth one.  "Dumbass Dwarf" - using your pick to mine for stupid. 

Snow White would've suffocated you in your sleep and buried you in your tiny little bed.

I think I just pissed and shat myself from laughing so hard.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 25, 2014, 09:56:27 am
Did you know any Boston residents impacted by this?  I did.  Was it a pain?  Sure. 

This woman was not pleased with the outcome though...

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/07/11/us/11cnd-boston.600.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 25, 2014, 09:57:26 am
I think I just pissed and shat myself from laughing so hard.

Well now your drawers know what Sauer's feels like all the time.  Happy Thursday.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 25, 2014, 04:40:07 pm
LOL, the things some people say. Comments like need to be collected so that down the road, if or when we get another world class development proposal we can remember that a good majority of internet commentors simply don't have a clue.

As young professional who just moved to Tulsa permanently a few months ago, this park is one of the few things that is giving me hope for the future of this city. I hope it will become a flashpoint that will help the younger generation realize that we don't have to put up with the crappy developments that the baby boomers are leaving behind. World class things can exist in Tulsa, even if half the local yokals won't recognize it or downplay it because they don't understand it.


First of all...condolences!  That you had to move away from whatever Nirvana of enlightenment you had to leave to come here!!

As for world class...well, there are some world class things here.  Museums, outdoor recreational opportunities commensurate with the local climate, bass fishing (definitely world class!), and some of the best world class prairie available just northwest of town near Pawhuska.  And in proportion to the population and wealth levels of this state.  Just not any southern California kitsch....  You should try the noodling tournament!!  Or the mumblety-peg festivals!!  Both golden opportunities for steeping in the local ambiance...

But hey, maybe you can help with that...start with whatever ideas and pre-conceived notions you brought with you from where you came, and just duplicate them here!!  Yeah...that's the ticket....I'm sure we will start to see almost immediate results with a significantly improved lifestyle for all!!  We all anxiously await!!


(Sounds like someone has Mommy and Daddy issues....sorry to hear that!!)



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 25, 2014, 04:50:46 pm
30 years qualifies you as a "local yokal" although I'm sure you think more highly of yourself. (As will all the "local yokals".)



I am offended by the term "local yokal" (actually should be spelled yokel to be proper)....that is offensive, pejorative, and quite possibly racist!!

I prefer the term "hick from the sticks"....



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 25, 2014, 04:53:34 pm

LOL



I do have to agree with your name, though...I have always thought it imperative to shave the whales - otherwise, when you put them on the spit to roast over an open fire, all that hair burns and leaves a disagreeable, lingering odor throughout the cooking process!



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 28, 2014, 01:15:07 pm

I am offended by the term "local yokal" (actually should be spelled yokel to be proper)....that is offensive, pejorative, and quite possibly racist!!

I prefer the term "hick from the sticks"....


Your as bad as me, I got thin skin too and get offended very easy. I found out the hard way that our U.S. constitution has no Article that says "We all have a right not to be offended" Maybe it's time to put in  some  amendment to cover that. I'm just sayin'


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on September 28, 2014, 01:22:56 pm
Your as bad as me, I got thin skin too and get offended very easy. I found out the hard way that our U.S. constitution has no Article that says "We all have a right not to be offended" Maybe it's time to put in  some  amendment to cover that. I'm just sayin'

I've got $10 that's says you have never read the constitution.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 28, 2014, 01:27:56 pm
I tell ya what after watching that video on post #477 about the features of "The Gathering Place" it seems to me to be more like a State Fair Midway and over glorified Childrens playground. According to newspaper articles and display maps and models about what is going to be there it says: A Lodge, Adventure Playground, Great lawn, Lakeview Lawn, Blair Pond, Childrens Mist Hill, Childrens Swing Hill, Boathouse, Childrens SkyGarden, 4-Seasons Garden, Childrens Skate Bowl, Museum Hill, and a Sports Court. The jogging Trails will run thru it all on the far western side of The Gathering Place I guess they will be left as they are untouched. According to the video on post number 477 they will have climbing walls & climbing nets, paths that circle all around the area and it'll be about 100 acres in size. I would rather have the place less crowded with objects and more green space, more natural space and less of a playground environment. maybe when it's all done it'll look better. JMO.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on September 28, 2014, 05:23:49 pm
I tell ya what after watching that video on post #477 about the features of "The Gathering Place" it seems to me to be more like a State Fair Midway and over glorified Childrens playground. According to newspaper articles and display maps and models about what is going to be there it says: A Lodge, Adventure Playground, Great lawn, Lakeview Lawn, Blair Pond, Childrens Mist Hill, Childrens Swing Hill, Boathouse, Childrens SkyGarden, 4-Seasons Garden, Childrens Skate Bowl, Museum Hill, and a Sports Court. The jogging Trails will run thru it all on the far western side of The Gathering Place I guess they will be left as they are untouched. According to the video on post number 477 they will have climbing walls & climbing nets, paths that circle all around the area and it'll be about 100 acres in size. I would rather have the place less crowded with objects and more green space, more natural space and less of a playground environment. maybe when it's all done it'll look better. JMO.

You don't even read the crap you write.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 28, 2014, 10:05:36 pm
You don't even read the crap you write.

Thats because he's a jackass


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on September 28, 2014, 10:07:45 pm
Thats because he's a jackass

You're insulting jackasses...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on September 28, 2014, 11:17:50 pm
I think if we took kimchi's brain and shoved it up a gnats donkey, it would look like a bb in a boxcar.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on September 29, 2014, 06:36:16 am
I tell ya what after watching that video on post #477 about the features of "The Gathering Place" it seems to me to be more like a State Fair Midway and over glorified Childrens playground. According to newspaper articles and display maps and models about what is going to be there it says: A Lodge, Adventure Playground, Great lawn, Lakeview Lawn, Blair Pond, Childrens Mist Hill, Childrens Swing Hill, Boathouse, Childrens SkyGarden, 4-Seasons Garden, Childrens Skate Bowl, Museum Hill, and a Sports Court. The jogging Trails will run thru it all on the far western side of The Gathering Place I guess they will be left as they are untouched. According to the video on post number 477 they will have climbing walls & climbing nets, paths that circle all around the area and it'll be about 100 acres in size. I would rather have the place less crowded with objects and more green space, more natural space and less of a playground environment. maybe when it's all done it'll look better. JMO.

You realize that the same entity that funded and made the jogging trail improvements that you like so much is the same entity that is mostly funding and driving the AGPFT? There is no reason to be adverse here...none whatever...zilch complaints at all, this will be an amazing asset for Tulsa and you will go and enjoy yourself in spite of yourself. Sit back and watch and wait. Don't take Riverside drive during the construction and if you do, don't F'ing complain because we told you well in advance that Riverside Drive will be closed.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Gaspar on September 29, 2014, 07:44:27 am
This will be one of the best things to ever happen to this city!

Decades ago there was a roundtable discussion with then mayor Susan Savage and a bunch of young Tulsans to discuss what we needed as a city. I was living in St. Louis but I had family and several friends that participated.  A couple of the young (at least back then  ;) ) participants actually worked for Savage at the time, so they thought they had at least some degree of a sympathetic ear.

The conciseness, was that Tulsa's festivals and organized events were what really brought us together as a city and attracted/retained young folks.  Mayfest, Reggae Fest, Octoberfest, Outdoor Amphitheater events, Tulsa Run, and dozens of others.  The amphitheater was too small for anything meaningful, and concerts in the ballpark were quite dismal.  There was nowhere for a real festival like you found in other cities. 

So, there was this campaign to convince the mayor, and the chamber, that Tulsa needed a festival grounds.   

I think everyone was very excited because the Savage agreed to take the recommendations into consideration, but ended up pushing this idea for a $200 million swim complex instead, that to this day, no one can figure out where that came from.   It really pissed off a lot of my friends and I think it lead to at least one of them resigning.

I moved back to Tulsa in 2000 and learned that Mayor LaFortune was also approached unsuccessfully with this exact concept, as was Taylor, and the Blair property was always the primary option, because it was considered a huge untapped resource.  I remember when the police would tape-off the Blair property for the 4th of July so that people wouldn't use the lawn.  Thousands lined up on it's edge to watch the fireworks.  Must have been quite a site from the air to see thick bands of humanity huddled together on the edge of a huge unused green space. 

This idea has been a long time coming.  It's probably the largest common-sense development this city has ever seen.  Lots of new folks responsible for making it real, but also some of the same.  A few less hairs, and a few more grey hairs on most, but it's finally happening. Of course in my opinion (and others as well) it should have happened before the Ballpark, and BOK, both of which have been great assets.

There are no negatives to this.  The concept is excellent.  The location is perfect. The timing (while perhaps a couple of decades late) is still good.  I can't imagine anyone being against this for any valid reason.  It will have a positive impact on this city beyond any public project we have ever undertaken. 

. . . and what makes it even better is that it's not tied to any politician trying to build a monument to themselves!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 29, 2014, 01:32:31 pm
It's private money that's correct- but I wish they would build something else with it other than a big playground. Maybe when it's done it will have more to it but from what I read about it and from I seen on the video in post 477 it's going to be  a jam-packed place full of bells and whistles- There is an $80 Million dollar expense to build 4 dams too, not to mention the up keep of the area when it's finished... OK, so everyone here is excited about it, I find it hard for me  to get excited about this project that's all.  I just feel the donations could be better spent on something else, or split the funds use half the money  for a Gathering Place Park  with large green areas and less frills- and use the rest of the money for other river projects/improvements like improving the west bank of the river, building a full jogging trail on the west bank down to Jenks, things like that. But that's just me & my thoughts. ???


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 29, 2014, 03:16:06 pm
It's private money that's correct- but I wish they would build something else with it other than a big playground. Maybe when it's done it will have more to it but from what I read about it and from I seen on the video in post 477 it's going to be  a jam-packed place full of bells and whistles- There is an $80 Million dollar expense to build 4 dams too, not to mention the up keep of the area when it's finished... OK, so everyone here is excited about it, I find it hard for me  to get excited about this project that's all.  I just feel the donations could be better spent on something else, or split the funds use half the money  for a Gathering Place Park  with large green areas and less frills- and use the rest of the money for other river projects/improvements like improving the west bank of the river, building a full jogging trail on the west bank down to Jenks, things like that. But that's just me & my thoughts. ???

Think harder, Homer.  At least try to use some thought before you spew.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on September 30, 2014, 11:39:49 am
Didn't anyone watch  that video about the Gathering Place on post #477 a few pages back? The thing is nothing but a playground for kids. The Gathering Place according to the video is broken up into 7 playground sections, there's nets to climb, bridges, a rope bridge, a pirate ship, a tiny picnic area for kids an area of little huts to play it. I would hope for something being  that extensive to be more than an playground. As I said on other posts why not use some of that loot to build a full length jogging trail on the west bank and make other west bank improvements? Why blow it all in one location, and nothing is said about parking. IMO this whole project has not been thought out fully. I hope it all turns out for the best. JMO.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on September 30, 2014, 11:43:08 am
Didn't anyone watch  that video about the Gathering Place on post #477 a few pages back? The thing is nothing but a playground for kids. The Gathering Place according to the video is broken up into 7 playground sections, there's nets to climb, bridges, a rope bridge, a pirate ship, a tiny picnic area for kids an area of little huts to play it. I would hope for something being  that extensive to be more than an playground. As I said on other posts why not use some of that loot to build a full length jogging trail on the west bank and make other west bank improvements? Why blow it all in one location, and nothing is said about parking. IMO this whole project has not been thought out fully. I hope it all turns out for the best. JMO.

How many more dumbassed posts until you feel as though you're done?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on September 30, 2014, 05:11:49 pm
As I said on other posts why not use some of that loot to build a full length jogging trail on the west bank and make other west bank improvements?

Because some people want a park.  It's really pretty simple.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on September 30, 2014, 05:38:44 pm
Didn't anyone watch  that video about the Gathering Place on post #477 a few pages back? The thing is nothing but a playground for kids. The Gathering Place according to the video is broken up into 7 playground sections, there's nets to climb, bridges, a rope bridge, a pirate ship, a tiny picnic area for kids an area of little huts to play it. I would hope for something being  that extensive to be more than an playground. As I said on other posts why not use some of that loot to build a full length jogging trail on the west bank and make other west bank improvements? Why blow it all in one location, and nothing is said about parking. IMO this whole project has not been thought out fully. I hope it all turns out for the best. JMO.

There are 600 parking spots and a pond. The playground is one section. There are many trails, kayaking, dining, and other things as well.
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/slide31.jpg)

It's like saying space mountain is disneyland.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on September 30, 2014, 05:53:30 pm
How many more dumbassed posts until you feel as though you're done?

Don't encourage..he's already over 3000...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheAnsonia on October 01, 2014, 10:41:09 am
Shave,

I’m borrowing from another thread, But out of curiosity, do you think young professionals like yourself would rather have a large outlet mall on the SW corner of Turkey Mountain or pristine wilderness to explore and enjoy?  Just curious if that’s one of the quality of life issues YP’s are looking for when they decide where to locate.

I'm not Shave - but no question, Turkey Mountain is a really special place. An outlet mall is not.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on October 01, 2014, 11:30:06 am
Turkey Mountain is a really special place. An outlet mall is not.

We're not getting any 'ol outlet mall.  We're getting a "high-end" one!

fancy fancy stuff


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on October 01, 2014, 03:31:54 pm
I'm not Shave - but no question, Turkey Mountain is a really special place. An outlet mall is not.

Thank you for the input!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 02, 2014, 09:02:04 am

Sauerkraut -

Sauerkraut - quick!

Since you use the area so much and the construction will only hurt your life...What is going up right now on the property?

If you can answer correctly, I'll believe you run by.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 02, 2014, 10:42:23 pm
Sauer, you crazy nut bastard.  Answer the question. 

What's recently gone up on the Gathering Place property?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on October 03, 2014, 11:37:17 am
There are 600 parking spots and a pond. The playground is one section. There are many trails, kayaking, dining, and other things as well.
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/slide31.jpg)

It's like saying space mountain is disneyland.
I don't see any parking places on the maps, Where will the parking be, in back where the homes are now?  Anyhow  I was going by the video that someone posted on post number 477- it just talked of one big playground for the kids broken up into 7 sections, nothing mentioned about kayaking or things like that. I just wondered why they could not spend a bit less on the Gathering Place and use the rest of the money to build up the west bank area and build a complete west bank jogging trail trail that runs from 11th street to Jenks, the complete west bank  trail can connect at the Jenks Bridge and loop onto the East bank Jogging trail. That's all I asked, no biggie.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on October 03, 2014, 11:44:02 am
Sauer, you crazy nut bastard.  Answer the question. 

What's recently gone up on the Gathering Place property?
I dunno, you tell me, the last time I jogged by the area was on Sunday afternoon and  they just had a big banner out that said "Gathering Place", and they had a big back hoe parked and a pile of dirt just east of the Jogging Trail near that bridge over the Crow Creek. What did they put up there? I normally park at the 41st street lot and run two miles south and two miles back, Sunday I did a six miler and ran two miles south  and two miles back and a mile north to the Gathering Place area and then back. I didn't see anything else but then I was not really looking. ???


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on October 03, 2014, 12:10:13 pm
I don't see any parking places on the maps, Where will the parking be, in back where the homes are now?  Anyhow  I was going by the video that someone posted on post number 477- it just talked of one big playground for the kids broken up into 7 sections, nothing mentioned about kayaking or things like that. I just wondered why they could not spend a bit less on the Gathering Place and use the rest of the money to build up the west bank area and build a complete west bank jogging trail trail that runs from 11th street to Jenks, the complete west bank  trail can connect at the Jenks Bridge and loop onto the East bank Jogging trail. That's all I asked, no biggie.

Because this isn't being built for your own personal use you narcissistic twit.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheAnsonia on October 03, 2014, 02:20:39 pm
I don't see any parking places on the maps, Where will the parking be, in back where the homes are now?  Anyhow  I was going by the video that someone posted on post number 477- it just talked of one big playground for the kids broken up into 7 sections, nothing mentioned about kayaking or things like that. I just wondered why they could not spend a bit less on the Gathering Place and use the rest of the money to build up the west bank area and build a complete west bank jogging trail trail that runs from 11th street to Jenks, the complete west bank  trail can connect at the Jenks Bridge and loop onto the East bank Jogging trail. That's all I asked, no biggie.

I thought the parking was pretty clearly marked on the back of the main park area. With regard to it being a big playground, unless your kiddos drink beer I'm not sure they're going to be getting much out of the proposed biergarten.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 03, 2014, 04:41:33 pm
I dunno, you tell me, the last time I jogged by the area was on Sunday afternoon and  they just had a big banner out that said "Gathering Place", and they had a big back hoe parked and a pile of dirt just east of the Jogging Trail near that bridge over the Crow Creek. What did they put up there? I normally park at the 41st street lot and run two miles south and two miles back, Sunday I did a six miler and ran two miles south  and two miles back and a mile north to the Gathering Place area and then back. I didn't see anything else but then I was not really looking. ???

Well dammit you jackass.  Get on over there and figure it out.  I need to know your opinion. 

Gots to have your opinion.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on October 03, 2014, 05:05:24 pm
Gots to have your opinion.

I doubt it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 03, 2014, 05:55:27 pm
I doubt it.

No smile, Red.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on October 04, 2014, 09:28:43 am
When it comes to RiverSide Park, The thing most people care about is the jogging trails either for running or for cycling that's the main reason people go there in the first place.  As I said before  Why not use some of that grant money for improvements on the west bank and extending the west  trail from 11th street to Jenks it would not cost that much money most of the west trail is already there, they just need to make it continous. They have a ton of money..  Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I would also like to see mile markers on a post like they had before the trail was re-built, so you can see the mile marker post from a distance. The Gathering Place from what I read about it just seems to be all Bells & Whistles with some  Frills thrown  like  an over glorified playground for the kiddies. I wish some of the money could be spent for other improvements at RiverParks too. I'm just sayin'.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on October 04, 2014, 11:34:57 am
When it comes to RiverSide Park, The thing most people care about is the jogging trails either for running or for cycling that's the main reason people go there in the first place.  As I said before  Why not use some of that grant money for improvements on the west bank and extending the west  trail from 11th street to Jenks it would not cost that much money most of the west trail is already there, they just need to make it continous. They have a ton of money..  Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I would also like to see mile markers on a post like they had before the trail was re-built, so you can see the mile marker post from a distance. The Gathering Place from what I read about it just seems to be all Bells & Whistles with some  Frills thrown  like  an over glorified playground for the kiddies. I wish some of the money could be spent for other improvements at RiverParks too. I'm just sayin'.

That of course ignores all the people there with their kids at the parks and playgrounds, the people playing soccer, volleyball, frisbee golf, basketball, dining, listening to live music, fishing, taking photos, going for a stroll, going on a picnic, enjoying the scenery, taking photos, rollerblading, etc. etc.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 04, 2014, 01:31:21 pm
When it comes to RiverSide Park, The thing most people care about is the jogging trails either for running or for cycling that's the main reason people go there in the first place.  As I said before  Why not use some of that grant money for improvements on the west bank and extending the west  trail from 11th street to Jenks it would not cost that much money most of the west trail is already there, they just need to make it continous. They have a ton of money..  Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I would also like to see mile markers on a post like they had before the trail was re-built, so you can see the mile marker post from a distance. The Gathering Place from what I read about it just seems to be all Bells & Whistles with some  Frills thrown  like  an over glorified playground for the kiddies. I wish some of the money could be spent for other improvements at RiverParks too. I'm just sayin'.

Well obviously since you're giving your opinion about it again, you've made the effort to go down there and reflect on the work being done.

So what have they erected on the property?  It's very obvious.  You can't miss it.

Make an effort to support your thoughts.

What is the newest thing added to the property?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 04, 2014, 02:08:38 pm
Well obviously since you're giving your opinion about it again, you've made the effort to go down there and reflect on the work being done.

So what have they erected on the property?  It's very obvious.  You can't miss it.

Make an effort to support your thoughts.

What is the newest thing added to the property?

Kimchi reminds me of my ex-father in law, quotes everything as gospel that he heard from Glenn Bleck and Randi Rhoadhard but can't come up with any proof as to the reality.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on October 04, 2014, 03:23:47 pm
As I said before  Why not use some of that grant money for improvements on the west bank and extending the west  trail from 11th street to Jenks

Pete and Repeat sat on a fence.  Pete fell off.  Who was left?
 ;D




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on October 07, 2014, 09:22:38 am
That of course ignores all the people there with their kids at the parks and playgrounds, the people playing soccer, volleyball, frisbee golf, basketball, dining, listening to live music, fishing, taking photos, going for a stroll, going on a picnic, enjoying the scenery, taking photos, rollerblading, etc. etc.
I did say MOST people who go to River Parks go for the trails- and people who rollerblade use the trails. The biggest  draw to River Parks is the jogging trails, Saturday & Sunday mornings the trail is crowded with runners and cyclists not may people doing anything else. The Gathering Place is Ok but it's not what I would of planned with the money. As I said use some of the money for the west bank a good example is why not build up the west bank Festival Park? Extend the trails down to Jenks on the west bank so we'll have a big trail loop. Seems to me they are Putting too many eggs into one place~ The Gathering Place. Split the money up..  JMO.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on October 07, 2014, 09:25:12 am
Pete and Repeat sat on a fence.  Pete fell off.  Who was left?
 ;D



No one was left but us broken records. Stuck in a groove. I'm just sayin'.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 07, 2014, 09:27:18 am
No one was left but us broken records. Stuck in a groove. I'm just sayin'.

What has been built on the Gathering place property? 

C'mon man, show us that you've even gone close to the area by telling us what's new there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on October 07, 2014, 10:08:15 am
I did say MOST people who go to River Parks go for the trails- and people who rollerblade use the trails. The biggest  draw to River Parks is the jogging trails, Saturday & Sunday mornings the trail is crowded with runners and cyclists not may people doing anything else. The Gathering Place is Ok but it's not what I would of planned with the money. As I said use some of the money for the west bank a good example is why not build up the west bank Festival Park? Extend the trails down to Jenks on the west bank so we'll have a big trail loop. Seems to me they are Putting too many eggs into one place~ The Gathering Place. Split the money up..  JMO.

OK.  Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here on this one.   I get that you are primarily are a jogger, and don't have young children, etc.  But there are tons of people who do, and this is going to be a very cool park. (Even if I am going to be blocked due to the construction for a year or so...)  Also, remember that this is private money and Kaiser is able to say where  he wants to spend his money, etc.  And of course, this private expenditure could open up more public funds for West Side improvements, etc.

But there is a logic flaw I want to point out in your argument.   You suggest that "The biggest  draw to River Parks is the jogging trails, Saturday & Sunday mornings the trail is crowded with runners and cyclists not may people doing anything else."  This of course is true, because that's basically all there is right now.   It is a self-fulfilling statement, but has no bearing on future-state.  Once the new park is in place there will undoubtedly be a large number of people using it, and will change the dynamics of the entire area. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 07, 2014, 10:13:11 am
 It is a self-fulfilling statement, but has no bearing on future-state. 

Heck of a try but that's where you lost him.

He'll post the same thing he's posted the last three times


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 07, 2014, 10:20:16 am
What has been built on the Gathering place property? 

C'mon man, show us that you've even gone close to the area by telling us what's new there.

He's waiting for Google Maps to update the satelite photos.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on October 07, 2014, 10:35:32 am
I am taking a self-imposed absence from responding or reading anything from sauerkraut. I just cannot go any further.

I argue with gaspar or guido911, but I am always smiling while typing. I like those guys and they are worthy of my words. They are just wrong and need my help.

Sauerkraut is something else. I don't want to even think about his posts. His ignorance is not amusing, but annoying. He is so wrong he can't be fixed.

Join me in not responding to him. We can have an adult conversation and ignore the barking dog next door.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on October 07, 2014, 10:46:54 am
Join me in not responding to him. We can have an adult conversation and ignore the barking dog next door.

I suggested earlier and still think that he might be trolling all of us,  but I just couldn't help myself this time.   If he's a troll, he is upper-echelon for being able to keep it up this long.  If not, well "just bless his little heart" as my grandmother used to say.   I'll try to follow your lead.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on October 07, 2014, 11:21:07 am
Can the mods activate the ability to ignore a user so their posts don't show up?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on October 07, 2014, 11:35:20 am
Can the mods activate the ability to ignore a user so their posts don't show up?

Not using SMF.  Not sure about other forum software but that (changing software) likely won't happen.  At least this decade.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 07, 2014, 11:39:42 am


Join me in not responding to him. We can have an adult conversation and ignore the barking dog next door.

Harumph, harumph...get out your torches and pitch forks guys.  I'm with RM


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on October 07, 2014, 11:43:46 am
I argue with gaspar or guido911, but I am always smiling while typing. I like those guys and they are worthy of my words.

Ah yes, the old I'll show them ploy.

 :D



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 07, 2014, 11:55:42 am
(http://www.nourishingtreasures.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/suffocateit21.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on October 07, 2014, 12:57:24 pm
OK.  Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here on this one.   I get that you are primarily are a jogger, and don't have young children, etc.  But there are tons of people who do, and this is going to be a very cool park. (Even if I am going to be blocked due to the construction for a year or so...)  Also, remember that this is private money and Kaiser is able to say where  he wants to spend his money, etc.  And of course, this private expenditure could open up more public funds for West Side improvements, etc.

But there is a logic flaw I want to point out in your argument.   You suggest that "The biggest  draw to River Parks is the jogging trails, Saturday & Sunday mornings the trail is crowded with runners and cyclists not may people doing anything else."  This of course is true, because that's basically all there is right now.   It is a self-fulfilling statement, but has no bearing on future-state.  Once the new park is in place there will undoubtedly be a large number of people using it, and will change the dynamics of the entire area. 
I know it's private money but has Kaiser said he does not want the money spent on anything else only the Gathering Place?  That's a ton of money, there is a lot more that can be done along with the Gathering Place. The west side has Festival Park and that is huge empty chunk of land they even got rid of the old band shell that used to be there. Every January 1st they do the Polar Bear Plunge there and that's about it. Maybe I'm just thinking too much outside of the box.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 07, 2014, 02:37:55 pm
I know it's private money but has Kaiser said he does not want the money spent on anything else only the Gathering Place?  That's a ton of money, there is a lot more that can be done along with the Gathering Place. The west side has Festival Park and that is huge empty chunk of land they even got rid of the old band shell that used to be there. Every January 1st they do the Polar Bear Plunge there and that's about it. Maybe I'm just thinking too much outside of the box.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-89vUXAEIBOE/UHteOlTDYYI/AAAAAAAAAUY/ifDMo5V9S48/s1600/grumble-slap-cat2.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on October 07, 2014, 03:22:00 pm
I know it's private money but has Kaiser said he does not want the money spent on anything else only the Gathering Place?  That's a ton of money, there is a lot more that can be done along with the Gathering Place. The west side has Festival Park and that is huge empty chunk of land they even got rid of the old band shell that used to be there. Every January 1st they do the Polar Bear Plunge there and that's about it. Maybe I'm just thinking too much outside of the box.

I'm sure if someone gives you $300M dollars for something, they're perfectly fine if you just blow it all on hats.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: charky on October 07, 2014, 06:01:47 pm
Pete and Repeat sat on a fence.  Pete fell off.  Who was left?
 ;D

So Pete and Repeat were sitting on a fence? A fence right? Not a stump or the side of the road...but a fence? Just making sure you meant fence when you typed fence.  :)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on October 07, 2014, 06:27:00 pm
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-89vUXAEIBOE/UHteOlTDYYI/AAAAAAAAAUY/ifDMo5V9S48/s1600/grumble-slap-cat2.jpg)

That's incredible. Perfect.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on October 07, 2014, 06:47:13 pm
So Pete and Repeat were sitting on a fence? A fence right? Not a stump or the side of the road...but a fence? Just making sure you meant fence when you typed fence.  :)

That's the way I heard it.
 
 :D

fence
-n  1. a barrier enclosing or bordering a field, yard, etc., usually made of posts and wire or wood used to prevent entrance, to confine or to mark a boundary.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Nik on October 09, 2014, 07:24:42 am
I am taking a self-imposed absence from responding or reading anything from sauerkraut. I just cannot go any further.

I argue with gaspar or guido911, but I am always smiling while typing. I like those guys and they are worthy of my words. They are just wrong and need my help.

Sauerkraut is something else. I don't want to even think about his posts. His ignorance is not amusing, but annoying. He is so wrong he can't be fixed.

Join me in not responding to him. We can have an adult conversation and ignore the barking dog next door.

Yes, please do this. As someone who is frequent reader but just occasional contributor, if somebody new to this board comes to find out information about A Gathering Place, they could easily be turned off by the current discourse.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 09, 2014, 10:00:20 am
I am taking a self-imposed absence from responding or reading anything from sauerkraut. I just cannot go any further.

I argue with gaspar or guido911, but I am always smiling while typing. I like those guys and they are worthy of my words. They are just wrong and need my help.

Sauerkraut is something else. I don't want to even think about his posts. His ignorance is not amusing, but annoying. He is so wrong he can't be fixed.

Join me in not responding to him. We can have an adult conversation and ignore the barking dog next door.


I am trying....and you are right about everything - gaspar and guido need as much of our help as we can give them!  But they are salvageable.....
 

Sadly, it is S and many thousands like him who continue to believe the spew they hear on Fox and refuse to learn anything from the real world, that keep electing the clown shows we have for state and local government.  That is why we are always at the top of all the "bad" lists.....

Even when we get kudoes for "most liveable" something in the state - OKC got one not long ago - it is followed by something else, in OKC's case of being on the list as about #5 for worst gang violence in the country (heard the tail end of a note on that yesterday, so do not know the criteria/conditions used as reference).



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheAnsonia on October 09, 2014, 04:05:04 pm
I know it's private money but has Kaiser said he does not want the money spent on anything else only the Gathering Place?  That's a ton of money, there is a lot more that can be done along with the Gathering Place. The west side has Festival Park and that is huge empty chunk of land they even got rid of the old band shell that used to be there. Every January 1st they do the Polar Bear Plunge there and that's about it. Maybe I'm just thinking too much outside of the box.

You cannot possibly be serious. Have you heard of a little* thing called Oktoberfest? It will be there next Wednesday-Sunday. It is called Festival Park because there are a number of festivals there. Just to throw another one out there - Scot Fest was there back in June. There are also a number of races/marathons that utilize the area.

*By little, I mean arguably the biggest Oktoberfest outside of the original.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on October 09, 2014, 04:22:49 pm
You cannot possibly be serious. Have you heard of a little* thing called Oktoberfest? It will be there next Wednesday-Sunday. It is called Festival Park because there are a number of festivals there. Just to throw another one out there - Scot Fest was there back in June. There are also a number of races/marathons that utilize the area.

*By little, I mean arguably the biggest Oktoberfest outside of the original.

(http://www.wakondamarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/do-not-feed-the-trolls.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 09, 2014, 04:26:22 pm

https://www.google.com/search?q=seattle+troll&client=firefox-a&hs=Wai&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=aAo3VOq3NsqdygSPj4GoCQ&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1700&bih=905


Last time we were here, there were 3 separate "living quarters" up on the ledge behind this guy....



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on October 21, 2014, 03:08:23 pm
Dooey makes my head hurt.

Quote
Mayor changes plans for Riverside Drive sidewalk, cites safety concerns

For more: Catch up on the latest news on the construction of A Gathering Place for Tulsa.

A plan for a sidewalk that would connect downtown to A Gathering Place for Tulsa was nixed after Mayor Dewey Bartlett intervened.

While sidewalks on the west side of Riverside Drive will still connect pedestrians to the park, Bartlett said he asked for a re-evaluation of the alternate path after receiving complaints from neighborhood residents.

"The reason was I think there is a very real safety reason on that whole issue," Bartlett said. "I thought it was a better choice to — at least at this point — have people on the west side."

The sidewalk was planned for the east side of Riverside Drive, connecting Veterans Park at 21st Street and Boulder Avenue to the entrance of the Gathering Place, near 27th Street and Riverside Drive.

Bartlett said he had complaints several months ago with concerns about safety and people parking inside the neighborhood.

He said he went to the engineering department, which already had the sidewalk planned with Riverside Drive improvements, and asked department officials to re-evaluate the sidewalk.

Bartlett said safety concerns for pedestrians came from complaints, but that became the deciding factor in changing the plan.

"They brought it up, and there were people that said look at it," Bartlett said. "I heard people voice concern and I think there is a legitimate concern."

Bill Leighty, executive director of the Smart Growth Tulsa Coalition, took issue with Bartlett's plan change, saying Bartlett allowed special interests in the affluent neighborhood adjoining the Gathering Place to limit pedestrian access from downtown.

"He made a decision that is not consistent with our community plan," Leighty said. "The decision is not in the public good."

Leighty said complaints from neighborhood residents were unfounded concerns that a sidewalk would increase crime rates.

"Because the city has backed off of this plan to build this sidewalk, the only pedestrian access from downtown is people will have to cross Riverside Drive," Leighty said. "To put people in harm's way is a bad idea."

A pedestrian walkway will cross Riverside Drive on the south side of the Gathering Place, and Bartlett said there are additional plans for a stop light and intersection just north of the Gathering Place's entrance where pedestrians can cross.

"I really think the whole thing hinges on safety," Bartlett said. "It wasn't a snap decision.”

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/mayor-changes-plans-for-riverside-drive-sidewalk-cites-safety-concerns/article_019724d8-5e3d-5d40-8755-4076cf553fb1.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on October 21, 2014, 03:26:19 pm
Ugh


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 21, 2014, 03:52:33 pm
Yeah, I'm sure he thought this over long and hard.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on October 21, 2014, 04:20:39 pm
Dooey makes my head hurt.


Dewey the Dewsh.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 21, 2014, 07:12:12 pm
I guess the Midland Valley Trail, and the three streets that have some sidewalks are good enough. Don't want any of that bad crime element getting in their neighborhood, you know sidewalks are the gateways to such horrible crimes like safe walking, God forbid it interrupts their driving.  ::)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on October 21, 2014, 07:46:35 pm
That's pretty ridiculous.  But having sidewalks on Boston south of 21st would probably be better than the east side of Riverside.  


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on October 21, 2014, 08:01:02 pm
He was afraid of Ebola spreading from the park. Pretty reasonable.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on October 21, 2014, 08:23:59 pm
He was afraid of Ebola spreading from the park. Pretty reasonable.

The fire from his cellphone should guard him from that.  Special protection that cellphone has.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on October 22, 2014, 08:42:27 am
Granted, it’s not much of a hardship to walk two blocks from Veteran’s Park to the Midland Trail, but it simply illustrates how incredibly out of tune this administration is to any sort of sensible development ideas.

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55532406.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on October 23, 2014, 08:46:24 am
Well, this might explain the sidewalk removal a little better:

Quote
The owner of the building that houses Mayor Dewey Bartlett’s oil and gas company was among the people who met with the mayor to ask him to remove a sidewalk from planned improvements to Riverside Drive, according to a person who attended the meeting.

Bartlett later had the sidewalk removed from the city’s plans.

Maple Ridge Neighborhood Association President Steve Welch said he and Ronald Barnes were among those who met with Bartlett this summer to ask that the sidewalk not be built.

County and state records list Barnes as the owner of the building where Bartlett’s business, Keener Oil & Gas Co., maintains offices at 1648 S. Boston Ave.

Barnes, a lawyer, also has offices in the building. The person who answered the phone at Barnes’ office Wednesday afternoon said he was unavailable.
Barnes donated $1,000 to Bartlett’s re-election campaign last year and $1,000 to Bartlett in the 2009 election, according to Tulsa World reports on campaign finance records.

The sidewalk was to have been constructed on the east side of Riverside Drive from the north boundary of A Gathering Place for Tulsa north to 21st Street.

Bartlett said Tuesday that he based his decision on a number of neighborhood concerns, but “I really think the whole thing hinges on safety.”

Bartlett was unavailable for comment Wednesday but issued a statement saying that he considered all of the neighborhood’s concerns but in the end it came down to pedestrian and motorist safety.

“This is simply a matter of public safety. I prefer to err on the conservative side of keeping people out of harm’s way, and that is what the leadership of the homeowners’ association asked my administration to examine,” Bartlett said.

“We all know that the speed factor on Riverside Drive could have a real impact on safety for those who might use the east side of the street.”
Welch said Wednesday that “the issue for us was basically the diminishing values of the lots along Riverside Drive.”

“In our first meeting with him (City Engineer Paul Zachary) and his team, I think we had 50 residents, primarily from Riverside District (inside the Maple Ridge neighborhood), and the Riverside District had an issue with the damage to property values and the amount of parking that would be encouraged on the neighborhood streets,” Welch said.

He added that residents didn’t see the value of a sidewalk on the east side of Riverside Drive since there was no parking to support it.
Pedestrian safety was also cited.

“We thought the sidewalk as it was proposed was dangerous from the standpoint of the pedestrians,” Welch said. “They were going to put up a wall and a fence — but it looked to us to be a death trap.”

Neighborhood residents had been concerned about the proposed road improvements for months, Welch said, because initial plans called for removing several residences.

“We are all for a walkable city,” Welch said. “But when you already have the biggest sidewalk in the whole city on the other side of the street, we think you don’t need to duplicate it on the east side.”

Welch said Zachary and his team were always cooperative and helpful in their discussions with neighborhood residents but that Zachary would not agree to remove the sidewalk.

“He was not going to give up the sidewalk without the direction of the mayor was his opinion,” Welch said.

A meeting with the mayor was then set up. Among those present were Bartlett, Zachary, Welch and Barnes, according to Welch.
Bartlett later informed the Engineering Department of his decision not to build the sidewalk.

Running adjacent to the planned sidewalk are 10 residential properties, as well as condominium complexes and commercial businesses, according to Tulsa County Assessor records. Along that stretch, Barnes owns the residential property with the highest fair-market value, the records indicate.

City Councilor Blake Ewing said Wednesday that he has placed the issue on Thursday’s City Council committee agenda and will wait to form an opinion until after he hears directly from interested parties.

“I don’t really know what happened,” Ewing said. “So we’re going to look forward to finding out. We will continue to meet with neighborhood residents to hear their concerns.”

However, Ewing said, he is concerned about the absence of a sidewalk.

“The reality is people are still going to walk there, and you’re going to have a dirt path — a walking trail,” he said. “Then you’re going to come back to us five years later asking for a sidewalk.”

Jay Williams, who lives in one of the 10 homes adjacent to the planned sidewalk, said he supports Riverside Drive improvements and the Gathering Place but opposes the sidewalk.

“People walk through, and they can see into the house,” Williams said. “Our only complaint was that sidewalk. If they cancel that, we’ll be happy campers.”

Kevin Canfield 918-581-8313

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/mayor-s-business-landlord-objected-to-nixed-sidewalk/article_3f4273c5-4782-5092-9430-62bbec022d2d.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on October 23, 2014, 10:16:48 am
I hate to be in a position of possibly agreeing with Dewey on any issue, but while I'm fairly sure his motives aren't pure and the some of the locals definitely have a (literal) NIMBY  attitude, I'm going to have to come down on the side of not having a sidewalk along the East side of Riverside. 

Even in the renderings it is uncomfortably close to the road, and unless they drastically slow down traffic on Riverside I can see problems occurring.  Anyone coming from the park already has access by going down the West side of Riverside, and/or going East (on the already existing sidewalk) on the North Side of 21st for about a net block and crossing at the existing crosswalk and going down the trail.  And while using the West side of Riverside is definitely longer, going East and using the existing trail is basically a wash with the new proposed sidewalk, and much less dangerous.

Feel free to pummel me with reasons why I am completely wrong.  :)
 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on October 23, 2014, 10:39:19 am
I hate to be in a position of possibly agreeing with Dewey on any issue, but while I'm fairly sure his motives aren't pure and the some of the locals definitely have a (literal) NIMBY  attitude, I'm going to have to come down on the side of not having a sidewalk along the East side of Riverside.  

Even in the renderings it is uncomfortably close to the road, and unless they drastically slow down traffic on Riverside I can see problems occurring.  Anyone coming from the park already has access by going down the West side of Riverside, and/or going East (on the already existing sidewalk) on the North Side of 21st for about a net block and crossing at the existing crosswalk and going down the trail.  And while using the West side of Riverside is definitely longer, going East and using the existing trail is basically a wash with the new proposed sidewalk, and much less dangerous.

Feel free to pummel me with reasons why I am completely wrong.  :)
 

I could agree on their point of it being a safety issue if it weren’t for the fact the bicycle portion of the west bank trail is very close to the road from 21st to the ped bridge, and that co-joins at the alignment of the walk/jog trail at roughly where 27th St would be on the street grid.  At least us cyclists provide some sort of barrier from the cars hitting the walkers ;)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: cynical on October 23, 2014, 10:52:59 am
I'm sure there are other reasons you are completely wrong, but three come to mind right away.

1. The sidewalk is located farther from the traffic than almost every other sidewalk in town. The planned sidewalk was reasonably safe and much safer than any alternative.
2. The alternative on the west side of Riverside involves pedestrians having to cross a heavily traveled four-lane plus turn lanes road on which a great many drivers exceed the posted speed limit while texting/reading their mobile devices. My wife witnessed an SUV rear-end a small school bus on Riverside without slowing at all. The driver was looking at her cell phone and didn't notice traffic standing in front of her at the red light. This is a significant safety issue, far exceeding any risk to pedestrians and vehicle posed by a sidewalk located five feet from the roadway.
3. For anyone approaching the park from the east side of Riverside but south of 21st Street, they will have to either backtrack to 21st for the light, jaywalk across Riverside, or blaze their own trail on the east side, sidewalk or no sidewalk. The last option is almost certainly the one that will be most commonly used by those pedestrians and will be supplemented by those coming from farther north who don't want to cross the street. A level concrete sidewalk would be much safer for such pedestrians than a dirt trail. The NIMBY instinct is completely useless in this case.


I hate to be in a position of possibly agreeing with Dewey on any issue, but while I'm fairly sure his motives aren't pure and the some of the locals definitely have a (literal) NIMBY  attitude, I'm going to have to come down on the side of not having a sidewalk along the East side of Riverside. 

Even in the renderings it is uncomfortably close to the road, and unless they drastically slow down traffic on Riverside I can see problems occurring.  Anyone coming from the park already has access by going down the West side of Riverside, and/or going East (on the already existing sidewalk) on the North Side of 21st for about a net block and crossing at the existing crosswalk and going down the trail.  And while using the West side of Riverside is definitely longer, going East and using the existing trail is basically a wash with the new proposed sidewalk, and much less dangerous.

Feel free to pummel me with reasons why I am completely wrong.  :)
 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on October 23, 2014, 10:54:03 am
I hate to be in a position of possibly agreeing with Dewey on any issue, but while I'm fairly sure his motives aren't pure and the some of the locals definitely have a (literal) NIMBY  attitude, I'm going to have to come down on the side of not having a sidewalk along the East side of Riverside. 

Even in the renderings it is uncomfortably close to the road, and unless they drastically slow down traffic on Riverside I can see problems occurring.  Anyone coming from the park already has access by going down the West side of Riverside, and/or going East (on the already existing sidewalk) on the North Side of 21st for about a net block and crossing at the existing crosswalk and going down the trail.  And while using the West side of Riverside is definitely longer, going East and using the existing trail is basically a wash with the new proposed sidewalk, and much less dangerous.

Feel free to pummel me with reasons why I am completely wrong.  :)
 

I believe the sidewalks along Memorial on both sides between 101st and 111th are unnecessarily close to the road.  So far there hasn't been any big problem that I know about.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on October 23, 2014, 11:02:26 am
Have the majority of the folks on this board ever agreed with Zachary and the city's streets department on anything?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 23, 2014, 11:03:51 am
I believe the sidewalks along Memorial on both sides between 101st and 111th are unnecessarily close to the road.  So far there hasn't been any big problem that I know about.




You got sidewalks out there in the boonies...???


You are right - especially on the west side of the street - that is crazy!!  Kinda typical Tulsa thing.... take a really good idea and mush it around until it isn't as good as it could be.





Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 23, 2014, 11:05:20 am
Have the majority of the folks on this board ever agreed with Zachary and the city's streets department on anything?


Maybe the scope of the question should be broadened... have the majority of the folks on this board ever agreed with anyone on anything...?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on October 23, 2014, 11:51:55 am
I'm sure there are other reasons you are completely wrong, but three come to mind right away.

1. The sidewalk is located farther from the traffic than almost every other sidewalk in town. The planned sidewalk was reasonably safe and much safer than any alternative.

2. The alternative on the west side of Riverside involves pedestrians having to cross a heavily traveled four-lane plus turn lanes road on which a great many drivers exceed the posted speed limit while texting/reading their mobile devices. My wife witnessed an SUV rear-end a small school bus on Riverside without slowing at all. The driver was looking at her cell phone and didn't notice traffic standing in front of her at the red light. This is a significant safety issue, far exceeding any risk to pedestrians and vehicle posed by a sidewalk located five feet from the roadway.

3. For anyone approaching the park from the east side of Riverside but south of 21st Street, they will have to either backtrack to 21st for the light, jaywalk across Riverside, or blaze their own trail on the east side, sidewalk or no sidewalk. The last option is almost certainly the one that will be most commonly used by those pedestrians and will be supplemented by those coming from farther north who don't want to cross the street. A level concrete sidewalk would be much safer for such pedestrians than a dirt trail. The NIMBY instinct is completely useless in this case.

Point one is fair.  There are a few feet from the proposed sidewalk to the street.  And as Conan mentioned, there are a couple of spots on the West side where the trail is close to the road as well.  It might be fine, but it seems a bit tight to me, especially when sandwiched between the road and brick barrier wall.   But I'm not sure how it is "safer than any alternative"?  A safer alternative would be to take a few feet from the homeowners and land owners a put some more distance between the road and the sidewalk.  (Not saying that would be easier, or even feasible, but it would be a safer alternative.)

Also,  with regard to the other posts about the tight sidewalks down South,  the other thread on walkability kind of makes my point.  Those sidewalks are so unfriendly toward pedestrians that not a lot of people use them.  So, while there may not be many accidents, they are still not a good situation.

Not sure I get points two and three.

On point two:  I have not seen a detail drawing, but I assume that the proposed sidewalk would run along the East side to 21st, where it would run into the existing sidewalk on the SE corner of 21st and Boulder in front of First Fidelity.  If so, and someone is coming from the SW corner of the park, they have to cross 21st at that intersection.  From there, yes, they have to cross the "exit street" of Riverside (but not Riverside proper) to get onto the bike/pedestrian path.   So yeah it's more of a hassle, I agree (and longer, per my first post), but not unduly more dangerous.   But what about the option of going West East and crossing at the existing MV trail?  There are already sidewalks there, and while both options still require crossing 21st once you are on the trail, safety is not an issue anymore and it's basically a straight shot to the park, and the same distance (or close) as going down along Riverside.

Not sure I understand point three at all.  If a person is South of 21st and East of Riverside, just use Boston to get to 26th and hit the trail and go into the park from there.    (And if they want to improve that access a little, just open up the end of 22nd, 23rd, or 24th to the MV trail.  Easy and cheap...)

Look at it again on a map.  It's either come down the East side of Riverside from 21st to park from the West, or use the MV trail and come in from the East.  Distance-wise it's a wash, and one of those already exists.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: cynical on October 23, 2014, 01:17:13 pm
I didn't do a good job of explaining Point 2. It is much more closely connected to the third point than was apparent. The issue is all about incentives and disincentives. Point 2 addressed the issue that arises when someone coming from any of the side streets from 22nd Street (South of Harwelden) to 26th Street (North of the park) wants to walk to the park. Rather than walking directly to the park, they will have to double back north to 21st Street, cross Riverside, walk south to the park on the west side, then cross Riverside again, hopefully using one of the land bridges depicted in the plans or they can double back east to the MV trail. Either would likely double or triple the distance they need to walk from a common point at the 2300 Riverside complex or one of the complexes nearby, a significant disincentive to pedestrian traffic. Tulsa needs to make pedestrian activities more convenient, not less convenient.

This ties into Point 3. Pedestrians already have the choice of walking on the east side of Riverside, sidewalk or no sidewalk. They might go to the trouble and risk of crossing Riverside at the light at 21st St. or they might jaywalk across Riverside as some already do. More likely, they will walk on the grass on the east side as the shortest distance to the park. Pedestrians almost always take the shortest route. They jaywalk when it is convenient, they walk across people's yards when it is convenient, they walk in the street when it is convenient, they are encouraged by convenient sidewalks, they are discouraged by fences and locked gates, but the lack of a sidewalk isn't much of a deterrent. I can show you any number of crowd-sourced dirt trails that spontaneously arose where substantially less convenient sidewalk alternatives exist. This will almost certainly happen on the east side of Riverside.

Incidentally, the option of taking additional property to move the sidewalk farther from Riverside imposes an additional financial burden on the city and an infringement on private property rights, either or both of which would be a more legitimate excuse to not put it in than the excuse put forward by the Mayor. The planned sidewalk would have fit within the city's already-existing right of way, avoiding land acquisition costs on top of the construction costs.

I think you greatly overestimate the danger posed to pedestrians using the planned sidewalk, somewhat overestimate the danger of crossing 21st St. near Boulder, and greatly underestimate the danger of crossing Riverside. And everyone going from the Veteran's Park area has to cross 21st St. anyway.

Point one is fair.  There are a few feet from the proposed sidewalk to the street.  And as Conan mentioned, there are a couple of spots on the West side where the trail is close to the road as well.  It might be fine, but it seems a bit tight to me, especially when sandwiched between the road and brick barrier wall.   But I'm not sure how it is "safer than any alternative"?  A safer alternative would be to take a few feet from the homeowners and land owners a put some more distance between the road and the sidewalk.  (Not saying that would be easier, or even feasible, but it would be a safer alternative.)

Also,  with regard to the other posts about the tight sidewalks down South,  the other thread on walkability kind of makes my point.  Those sidewalks are so unfriendly toward pedestrians that not a lot of people use them.  So, while there may not be many accidents, they are still not a good situation.

Not sure I get points two and three.

On point two:  I have not seen a detail drawing, but I assume that the proposed sidewalk would run along the East side to 21st, where it would run into the existing sidewalk on the SE corner of 21st and Boulder in front of First Fidelity.  If so, and someone is coming from the SW corner of the park, they have to cross 21st at that intersection.  From there, yes, they have to cross the "exit street" of Riverside (but not Riverside proper) to get onto the bike/pedestrian path.   So yeah it's more of a hassle, I agree (and longer, per my first post), but not unduly more dangerous.   But what about the option of going West East and crossing at the existing MV trail?  There are already sidewalks there, and while both options still require crossing 21st once you are on the trail, safety is not an issue anymore and it's basically a straight shot to the park, and the same distance (or close) as going down along Riverside.

Not sure I understand point three at all.  If a person is South of 21st and East of Riverside, just use Boston to get to 26th and hit the trail and go into the park from there.    (And if they want to improve that access a little, just open up the end of 22nd, 23rd, or 24th to the MV trail.  Easy and cheap...)

Look at it again on a map.  It's either come down the East side of Riverside from 21st to park from the West, or use the MV trail and come in from the East.  Distance-wise it's a wash, and one of those already exists.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on October 23, 2014, 01:30:38 pm
I didn't do a good job of explaining Point 2. It is much more closely connected to the third point than was apparent. The issue is all about incentives and disincentives. Point 2 addressed the issue that arises when someone coming from any of the side streets from 22nd Street (South of Harwelden) to 26th Street (North of the park) wants to walk to the park. Rather than walking directly to the park, they will have to double back north to 21st Street, cross Riverside, walk south to the park on the west side, then cross Riverside again, hopefully using one of the land bridges depicted in the plans or they can double back east to the MV trail. Either would likely double or triple the distance they need to walk from a common point at the 2300 Riverside complex or one of the complexes nearby, a significant disincentive to pedestrian traffic. Tulsa needs to make pedestrian activities more convenient, not less convenient.

This ties into Point 3. Pedestrians already have the choice of walking on the east side of Riverside, sidewalk or no sidewalk. They might go to the trouble and risk of crossing Riverside at the light at 21st St. or they might jaywalk across Riverside as some already do. More likely, they will walk on the grass on the east side as the shortest distance to the park. Pedestrians almost always take the shortest route. They jaywalk when it is convenient, they walk across people's yards when it is convenient, they walk in the street when it is convenient, they are encouraged by convenient sidewalks, they are discouraged by fences and locked gates, but the lack of a sidewalk isn't much of a deterrent. I can show you any number of crowd-sourced dirt trails that spontaneously arose where substantially less convenient sidewalk alternatives exist. This will almost certainly happen on the east side of Riverside.

Incidentally, the option of taking additional property to move the sidewalk farther from Riverside imposes an additional financial burden on the city and an infringement on private property rights, either or both of which would be a more legitimate excuse to not put it in than the excuse put forward by the Mayor. The planned sidewalk would have fit within the city's already-existing right of way, avoiding land acquisition costs on top of the construction costs.

I think you greatly overestimate the danger posed to pedestrians using the planned sidewalk, somewhat overestimate the danger of crossing 21st St. near Boulder, and greatly underestimate the danger of crossing Riverside. And everyone going from the Veteran's Park area has to cross 21st St. anyway.


Good points, and well made.   I like the "people are going to walk there anyway" angle.    Also, I agree that my example of widening the walking corridor is infeasible.  I was just throwing it out there for argument's sake.  I'm still not completely sold that the sidewalk is required, but I'll go with the position that it would be a net positive.  Now having said that, what do you (or anybody) think is the chance it will get put back in?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: cynical on October 23, 2014, 02:22:53 pm
Good points, and well made.   I like the "people are going to walk there anyway" angle.    Also, I agree that my example of widening the walking corridor is infeasible.  I was just throwing it out there for argument's sake.  I'm still not completely sold that the sidewalk is required, but I'll go with the position that it would be a net positive.  Now having said that, what do you (or anybody) think is the chance it will get put back in?

What it would take for Dewey to change his mind? Stranger things have happened. For example, OU just announced the resignation of Justin Skolarik, David Boren's hand-picked director of the Pride, the OU marching band. Boren had his heels pretty solidly dug in until the band members called him out in full-page ads in the Oklahoman, the Tulsa World, and the Dallas Morning News. He rescinded the program's prohibition against criticism via social media, met with the student leaders, met with the rank and file band members, and the next thing you know, Skolarik resigned effective immediately. Boren can take all kinds of heat, but he got out-hustled by the students and alumni. The embarrassment to the university was more than he could take. It seems that most people are laughing at Dewey's stated reason for the decision. Does he care that he has become a caricature of himself, a laughing stock? Time will tell. I am not optimistic. We have a strong mayor form of government that puts a good many levers of power into Dewey's hands. Every now and then someone he knows wakes him up and he pulls on a lever. It is usually the "stop" lever.

The difference between Boren and Bartlett is that when Boren makes a mistake, he is smart enough to turn it to his advantage. A generation or more of OU band boosters will forget that Boren hired Skolarik, remembering only that he eventually responded to their concerns in a way that empowered and validated them. Bartlett is just Dewey.

Unfortunately, this issue is symptomatic of a broader problem in city government in which the administration is better at applying the brakes than the accelerator.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on October 23, 2014, 03:27:07 pm
One minor detail about crossing Riverside at 21st: Don’t forget there is a pedestrian path on the south side of that bridge, so one would not have to set foot on Riverside Drive.

That said, I still say we need the sidewalk on the east side and it’s no less safe than the trail on the west.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on October 23, 2014, 04:36:31 pm
Also,  with regard to the other posts about the tight sidewalks down South,  the other thread on walkability kind of makes my point.  Those sidewalks are so unfriendly toward pedestrians that not a lot of people use them.  So, while there may not be many accidents, they are still not a good situation.

Not a lot of people use the sidewalks along Memorial between 101st and 111th because there is nothing to walk to.  I have occasionally seen people on them but it is rare.

As I noted somewhere else,  I would like sidewalks between 111th and 131st so I wouldn't get grass stains on my shoes walking to and from the Bixby BBQ once a year to avoid the parking cost and mess.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on October 23, 2014, 06:24:20 pm
What kind of sidewalks does Portland have?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on October 23, 2014, 07:12:48 pm
What kind of sidewalks does Portland have?

A completely random zoom looks like a mix some of concrete and others of brick.  Maybe more.

http://goo.gl/maps/tXWK0
http://goo.gl/maps/AcLKp




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on October 23, 2014, 07:22:38 pm
What kind of sidewalks does Portland have?

Just couldn't resist.

(http://m.c.lnkd.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/5/005/086/222/0580f43.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Markk on October 24, 2014, 08:40:22 am
If the proposed sidewalk presents a safety risk, then so does just about every sidewalk along every single major thoroughfare in Tulsa. 



I hate to be in a position of possibly agreeing with Dewey on any issue, but while I'm fairly sure his motives aren't pure and the some of the locals definitely have a (literal) NIMBY  attitude, I'm going to have to come down on the side of not having a sidewalk along the East side of Riverside. 

Even in the renderings it is uncomfortably close to the road, and unless they drastically slow down traffic on Riverside I can see problems occurring.  Anyone coming from the park already has access by going down the West side of Riverside, and/or going East (on the already existing sidewalk) on the North Side of 21st for about a net block and crossing at the existing crosswalk and going down the trail.  And while using the West side of Riverside is definitely longer, going East and using the existing trail is basically a wash with the new proposed sidewalk, and much less dangerous.

Feel free to pummel me with reasons why I am completely wrong.  :)
 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on October 24, 2014, 09:29:28 am
If the proposed sidewalk presents a safety risk, then so does just about every sidewalk along every single major thoroughfare in Tulsa. 




Driving south on Yale from 21st to 31st this morning, there is one section on the west side of the road where there is no buffer at all between the curb and sidewalk.  This is brand new sidewalk installed in the last year.  The only difference here is Dewby wouldn’t associate with people who live along that section of Yale.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on October 24, 2014, 02:02:19 pm
Driving south on Yale from 21st to 31st this morning, there is one section on the west side of the road where there is no buffer at all between the curb and sidewalk.  This is brand new sidewalk installed in the last year.  The only difference here is Dewby wouldn’t associate with people who live along that section of Yale.

Population control.   a few distracted drivers need to take out a few pedestrians and cyclists each year.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on October 25, 2014, 03:26:51 am
A completely random zoom looks like a mix some of concrete and others of brick.  Maybe more.

http://goo.gl/maps/tXWK0
http://goo.gl/maps/AcLKp




And in most of the Portland area away from downtown the side walks look like these......

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5529263,-122.5774371,3a,75y,53.67h,77.91t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNZewfU3_O4CISLuWpJ4I6g!2e0?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5529263,-122.5774371,3a,75y,53.67h,77.91t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNZewfU3_O4CISLuWpJ4I6g!2e0?hl=en)

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4974446,-122.5933104,3a,75y,64h,79.55t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srL6KYR6jCfwP36FxvTM5Ew!2e0?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4974446,-122.5933104,3a,75y,64h,79.55t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srL6KYR6jCfwP36FxvTM5Ew!2e0?hl=en)

or across the river in Vancouver WA

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6454067,-122.6688344,3a,75y,223.53h,71.64t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sMwtlV6yMs09UC0fp_NuTTg!2e0?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6454067,-122.6688344,3a,75y,223.53h,71.64t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sMwtlV6yMs09UC0fp_NuTTg!2e0?hl=en)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TulsaRufnex on October 26, 2014, 11:07:05 am
Granted, it’s not much of a hardship to walk two blocks from Veteran’s Park to the Midland Trail, but it simply illustrates how incredibly out of tune this administration is to any sort of sensible development ideas.

The worst part is to hear it characterized as a "safety issue."
For whom, exactly?

Sidewalk NIMBYs... now I've heard everything.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on October 26, 2014, 12:53:07 pm
drove down 71st street the other day

should we start a petition to remove all those dangerous sidewalks?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on October 26, 2014, 01:40:30 pm
Portland Maine, or Portland Oregon? I guess in the end it does not matter anyhoo, Portland is Portland.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on October 26, 2014, 01:53:10 pm
Sidewalk NIMBYs... now I've heard everything.

They are probably not looking forward to shoveling snow in the winter or edging the grass all summer.

In the town where I grew up, snow had to be removed the full width of the sidewalk within 24 hours after the snow stopped.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 26, 2014, 11:22:56 pm
Portland Maine, or Portland Oregon? I guess in the end it does not matter anyhoo, Portland is Portland.


The discussion had included Portland OR previously.  You know nobody cares about Portland Maine....they don't have the donuts!!






Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on November 06, 2014, 12:03:06 pm
Construction Begins on Tulsa's Gathering Place

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/construction-begins-tulsas-gathering-place (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/construction-begins-tulsas-gathering-place)

(http://publicradiotulsa.org/sites/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201407/gathering_place_rendering.jpg)

Quote
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — Construction is beginning on the city's newest park along the Arkansas River.

Work began this week on the first phase of "A Gathering Place for Tulsa, which is being funded by a mix of corporate and philanthropic Tulsa organizations — including the George Kaiser Family Foundation, which recently made a $350 million pledge toward the project.

The park will include features such as a lodge, boathouse, nature walks, two land bridges, sporting areas and a pond, among other amenities.

A groundbreaking ceremony was held in September on the project.


Title: sidewalk public meeting
Post by: BKDotCom on November 23, 2014, 02:13:32 pm
http://www.newson6.com/story/27461818/tulsa-public-meeting-held-monday-over-riverside-drive-sidewalk

Quote
A public meeting will be held over a block-long piece of sidewalk that is sparking controversy in a neighborhood next to Tulsa's planned Gathering Place park.

Mayor Dewey Bartlett changed sidewalk plans for a block on the east side of Riverside Drive that runs from East 26th Place to Gathering Place. The executive order overrides city policy and is against the advice of the city's top traffic engineer.

Instead, he sided with homeowners - including the landlord of the mayor's private office.

The Maple Ridge Homeowner's Association is against the sidewalk citing property values and preservation. Another group represented by Smart Growth Tulsa says it makes no sense to depart from Tulsa's Comprehensive Plan and poses barriers for adults in wheelchairs, on bike and on foot.

A town meeting will be held at 6 p.m. Monday, November 24 at the Tulsa Garden Center, 2435 South Peoria, to discuss the proposed sidewalk.

TULSA, Oklahoma - The sidewalk was initially planned to start at 21st and Boulder's Veteran's Park and connect to Gathering Place. Pedestrians will have to use a crosswalk to detour to the west side of Riverside Drive then cross back over into the park at a land bridge.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on November 23, 2014, 04:23:02 pm
Editorials in Tulsa World and Tulsa Voice both support the sidewalk. The opposition had this to say:

Quote
Riverside District residents and your MRNA Board of Directors continued to express several concerns in regards to the sidewalk itself. One of those was the damage to property values and quality of life to the residents that border Riverside. For instance, the iron fence, wall and sidewalk would have come within 8 ft of the kitchen window of one of those homes. All others would suffer significant financial harm considering the amount of land that would be taken away. Another issue is redundancy. A Gathering Place includes ample parking within the park and will be fully handicap accessible from the Midland Valley Trail or River Parks in eight different locations.

 

Another issue is the problem of event parking on the neighborhood streets that, we feel, the sidewalk would foster. And finally the issue of public safety. Considering the speed of traffic on Riverside and that the fence and masonry wall gives pedestrians nowhere to run when a car does come up over the curb, someone was going to get killed. Additionally there are six residential streets to cross from Harwelden to The Gathering Place entrance, adding to the danger.

 

During the course of what turned out to be our last meeting, Mr. Zachary said that he wouldn't pull the sidewalk from the project and that, the Mayor was the only one who could make that decision, We asked for a meeting with the Mayor. That meeting occurred on March 20, 2014.

 

The Mayor, his press director, Mr. Zachary, Buck Davies, Ron Barnes and, I were present. Paul Zachary presented the Engineering case and Maple Ridge reps presented ours. The Mayor asked some questions of each of us, said he would likely make additional inquiries and then, let us know of his decision.

 

Nothing much more occurred until July 22, 2014 when City of Tulsa engineering called a public meeting at the Garden Center. It was a pretty good turnout, maybe 200 people, channels 6 & 2 news and, Blake Ewing, GT Bynum, Jeff Stava. As I walked in the room, Jeff Stava saw me and said, 'the sidewalk has been dropped'.

 

Support from the entire neighborhood is needed at Monday's public forum. We really need Maple Ridge residents to come out in force. All sides will be heard and we will be allowed to present our case. Please turn out and participate in the Forum.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on November 24, 2014, 07:42:44 am
"Iron fence and sidewalk would come within 8 feet of a kitchen window"... Sounds nice.  When I was in London my apartment kitchen window faced the sidewalk, which was about 2 or 3 feet away.  Beautiful neighborhood. I looked out the window each misty morning and across the street there were rows of stately old mansions/apartments and homes with huge old trees lining the sidewalks.  One of the local tube stations was less than a block away so there was a steady stream of people all dressed up and quickly heading to work each morning along both sides of the street, parents and their young kids in school uniforms, etc.  I would look out the window as I was fixing my breakfast and watch the sun begin to change the white stone buildings colors from blues to golds and enjoyed seeing the world come alive outside. It made me want to get out there myself. Right around the corner near the station was a little market that usually had different food and flower vendors, sometimes a musician.  There was a little cafe that had great patisseries also just around the corner in case I did not want to fix my own breakfast.

"Iron fence and sidewalk within 8 feet of a kitchen window". Sounds like a long way off, but is still kind of nice. Far better than what I have here in Tulsa with no sidewalk.  Are they suggesting this is a negative?  I don't understand.






Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on November 24, 2014, 08:54:27 am
Why would you not lower the speed limit on Riverside in this area to begin with?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on November 24, 2014, 11:08:48 am


"Iron fence and sidewalk within 8 feet of a kitchen window". Sounds like a long way off, but is still kind of nice. Far better than what I have here in Tulsa with no sidewalk.  Are they suggesting this is a negative?  I don't understand.


"murica"?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: PonderInc on November 24, 2014, 11:20:42 am
Former mayors Terry Young, Robert Lafortune, Susan Savage and Kathy Taylor have come out in support of the sidewalk.  It's insane to me that they have to take a stance on the desirability of a sidewalk, but I'm glad they did.

(Terry Young makes a weird comparison to the Maple Ridge opposition to the original planned route of the IDL which would have decimated huge swaths of several historic neighborhoods and turned Riverside Drive into an expressway.  But hey, he likes the sidewalk.)

Here's the link to the TW story:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/four-former-mayors-support-riverside-drive-sidewalk/article_c4433b9c-49ae-598c-a4a5-15f3ac2c696c.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/four-former-mayors-support-riverside-drive-sidewalk/article_c4433b9c-49ae-598c-a4a5-15f3ac2c696c.html)

Of course, there should be a sidewalk along this section of Riverside Drive.  However, the Q&A section of the article mentions a different issue which hasn't attracted much notice: the street "improvements" will include 12' wide inner lanes and 14' wide outer lanes along this section of Riverside Dr. (along with straightening the curve that currently exists near the Pedestrian Bridge).  So, Riverside Drive will be designed for Interstate highway speeds, though the posted speed will be 35.  Guess which factor influences speed more?  Unfortunately, it's lane width.  That's something the Maple Ridge neighbors should be concerned about.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on November 24, 2014, 02:28:36 pm
"Iron fence and sidewalk within 8 feet of a kitchen window". Sounds like a long way off, but is still kind of nice. Far better than what I have here in Tulsa with no sidewalk.  Are they suggesting this is a negative?  I don't understand.

You are forgetting that not everyone likes to be packed-in as close as you do.  So yes, "Iron fence and sidewalk within 8 feet of a kitchen window" is probably a negative in their eyes.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on November 24, 2014, 02:43:17 pm
You are forgetting that not everyone likes to be packed-in as close as you do.  So yes, "Iron fence and sidewalk within 8 feet of a kitchen window" is probably a negative in their eyes.

Then don't buy a house that sits directly on Riverside Drive.

Pretty sure the river was there first.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on November 24, 2014, 03:54:41 pm
Then don't buy a house that sits directly on Riverside Drive.
I didn't say they made a good decision on location.

Quote
Pretty sure the river was there first.
What does the river being there first have to do with it?




Title: Re:
Post by: Ed W on November 24, 2014, 04:00:42 pm
Perhaps when ee get water in the river it will be moved.

Ed W


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on November 24, 2014, 04:55:40 pm
You are forgetting that not everyone likes to be packed-in as close as you do.  So yes, "Iron fence and sidewalk within 8 feet of a kitchen window" is probably a negative in their eyes.

Yes, probably true, but.... sometimes it is just a perception problem, shift your perception a bit and your thoughts and feelings can change.  Also, I don't know if we should make a decision in this instance based on this or that persons "likes" when so many others via the Comprehensive Plan Process etc. made the original decision to have the sidewalk there. For every person who does not like it, I could find another who will (thus it will not hurt the property values if that is a concern) It's always a balance but if one person doesn't like something because it will be too close to his window, do we then throw out this or that part of the Comprehensive Plan?  Might as well not have a new plan at all because everything will have voices against it.  It is plenty fair to weigh the pros- and cons that are brought up, but I hope we don't have to do it for every change on the table.

Btw, this morning on the way out of town drove down the other side of Maple Ridge, the one that abuts Peoria.  Saw plenty of sidewalks right next to the street and don't remember hearing about pedestrians being run over by texting drivers etc. on their way to Brookside or Cherry Street. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on November 24, 2014, 05:33:45 pm
Yes, probably true, but.... sometimes it is just a perception problem, shift your perception a bit and your thoughts and feelings can change.  Also, I don't know if we should make a decision in this instance based on this or that persons "likes" when so many others via the Comprehensive Plan Process etc. made the original decision to have the sidewalk there. For every person who does not like it, I could find another who will (thus it will not hurt the property values if that is a concern) It's always a balance but if one person doesn't like something because it will be too close to his window, do we then throw out this or that part of the Comprehensive Plan?  Might as well not have a new plan at all because everything will have voices against it.  It is plenty fair to weigh the pros- and cons that are brought up, but I hope we don't have to do it for every change on the table.

Btw, this morning on the way out of town drove down the other side of Maple Ridge, the one that abuts Peoria.  Saw plenty of sidewalks right next to the street and don't remember hearing about pedestrians being run over by texting drivers etc. on their way to Brookside or Cherry Street. 

I think Tulsa (I live in Bixby so I can't really say "we".) should build the sidewalk. I hate to agree with Swake but buying a house directly on Riverside Drive was probably not good choice although if someone has been there 50 years their expectations were probably different when they bought a house.


Title: Re:
Post by: Red Arrow on November 24, 2014, 05:36:31 pm
Perhaps when ee get water in the river it will be moved.

Ed W

It?  The river?  The house?  The road?  The sidewalk? Combination?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 25, 2014, 10:46:52 am
Former mayors Terry Young, Robert Lafortune, Susan Savage and Kathy Taylor have come out in support of the sidewalk.  It's insane to me that they have to take a stance on the desirability of a sidewalk, but I'm glad they did.

(Terry Young makes a weird comparison to the Maple Ridge opposition to the original planned route of the IDL which would have decimated huge swaths of several historic neighborhoods and turned Riverside Drive into an expressway.  But hey, he likes the sidewalk.)

Here's the link to the TW story:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/four-former-mayors-support-riverside-drive-sidewalk/article_c4433b9c-49ae-598c-a4a5-15f3ac2c696c.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/four-former-mayors-support-riverside-drive-sidewalk/article_c4433b9c-49ae-598c-a4a5-15f3ac2c696c.html)

Of course, there should be a sidewalk along this section of Riverside Drive.  However, the Q&A section of the article mentions a different issue which hasn't attracted much notice: the street "improvements" will include 12' wide inner lanes and 14' wide outer lanes along this section of Riverside Dr. (along with straightening the curve that currently exists near the Pedestrian Bridge).  So, Riverside Drive will be designed for Interstate highway speeds, though the posted speed will be 35.  Guess which factor influences speed more?  Unfortunately, it's lane width.  That's something the Maple Ridge neighbors should be concerned about.



I found what Terry Young said very strange as well. If Maple Ridge hadn't fought the Riverside Expressway we wouldn't even be able to build the Gathering Place as there would be a freeway on that site.

Strangely the Mayor is actually making a very valid point about safety along this stretch of Riverside (even-though he's not meaning to). What is being lost in this debate is how we are designing streets period in this city. 14 foot lanes are the same width as the Broken Arrow Expressway and 169, and we expect people will drive 35 MPH just because there are flashing lights saying Pedestrians are present? That's a joke.

We are wasting a huge amount of money, when we could improve Riverside Drive but lane widths should be 11 feet MAXIMUM. In fact, 10 foot lanes are more than acceptable for streets with speed limits of 35 MPH or under.

If we are in fact generally concerned about pedestrian safety, then we need to redesign the planned improvements to encourage lower speeds and talk about what kind of barriers we could install with that cost savings of a smaller street. What would stop someone from say leaving Riverside Drive and barreling through people along the trail on the west side of the street? That's just as much of a possibility as someone doing it on the proposed sidewalk, especially if we go through with constructing a street designed for people to drive 60+ MPH.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on November 25, 2014, 11:17:34 am
Drive any stretch of main arterials in Tulsa and most have sidewalks either right up against the curb or no more than a two or three foot grass buffer zone.   Even current construction like the recently completed stretch of Yale from 21st to 31st has sidewalks up to the curb and the posted speed limit is 40.  The safety angle is a complete fabrication.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 25, 2014, 11:52:12 am
Drive any stretch of main arterials in Tulsa and most have sidewalks either right up against the curb or no more than a two or three foot grass buffer zone.   Even current construction like the recently completed stretch of Yale from 21st to 31st has sidewalks up to the curb and the posted speed limit is 40.  The safety angle is a complete fabrication.

I don't disagree that it's a complete fabrication.

My point is we don't actually care about pedestrian safety, if we did we wouldn't be building 14 foot lanes on city streets. There's a reason why no one walks in this town, because the vast majority of the sidewalks even in our "Complete Streets" feel dangerous and are not properly designed. How many people do you think will actually walk along that stretch of Yale between 21st and 31st?

We are failing at every standard for complete streets, it's a joke that anyone would actually think that just because we are building sidewalks in new street projects that we are actually doing any good.

Few easy ways to solve this entire drama:

1. Instate neighborhood parking permits, fine and tow people who park in the areas they shouldn't. Every major city does this. Give residents temporary parking passes for guests to put in their windshield.

2. Redesign Riverside Drive to have 10 foot lanes. This would add an extra 6 feet between pedestrians and cars (if you count just the extra room from the 2 northbound lanes). You could potentially add over 12 feet between the road and the sidewalk if you pushed the road as far west as proposed, and built the sidewalk as far east as proposed with 10 foot lanes. How much safer would that make the sidewalk? Yet no one has even mentioned this.

3. Use the money saved from narrower street widths to plant trees and install barriers to prevent any cars from leaving Riverside accidentally. This would actually create an enjoyable and pleasant walking experience for pedestrians.

The sidewalk proposed right now is a failure in regards to proper complete streets standards. While better than 99% of sidewalks in this city, why are we still settling for "OK"? Especially leading from Downtown to a $300 million public park?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: PonderInc on November 25, 2014, 12:28:46 pm
LandArchPoke is absolutely right about the lane width, and I'm amazed that nobody's talking about it.  As a friend of mine said yesterday: "If the mayor is so worried about people driving so fast that you can't walk on the sidewalk, why don't they FIX THE DESIGN OF THE STREET?" 

14' wide lanes are insane.  Drivers respond instinctively to lane width. A big, straight, wide road with no pedestrian activity tells your brain "this is an interstate highway" and your foot and the gas pedal respond accordingly. 

The neighbors should be up in arms about the proposed "highway modifications" for Riverside Drive.  14'-wide lanes will increase driver speed, which will increase the chances of being rear-ended or T-boned when entering/exiting neighborhood streets.  14'-wide lanes will also increase the severity of those accidents.

Totally agree with LandArchPoke that narrower lanes would not only slow drivers down, they would allow much better buffer zones between cars and pedestrians on the sidewalk.  They would also allow enough room for street trees to thrive and provide shade to the pedestrians on the sidewalk.

All of these things encourage walking AND safety.  Pleasant, attractive, wide sidewalks encourage a practical alternative to driving.  Narrow lanes lower vehicular speeds.  Larger buffer zones between sidewalks and streets add to pedestrian comfort; they also allow for healthy street trees, which not only subconsciously cause drivers to slow down, they make walking in Oklahoma summers bearable.

I hate that this is even a discussion. It's such a no-brainer.  And it's sad that Tulsa is so far behind the curve...and so timid and afraid of every good thing that comes our way. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on November 25, 2014, 12:36:07 pm
I don't disagree that it's a complete fabrication.

My point is we don't actually care about pedestrian safety, if we did we wouldn't be building 14 foot lanes on city streets. There's a reason why no one walks in this town, because the vast majority of the sidewalks even in our "Complete Streets" feel dangerous and are not properly designed. How many people do you think will actually walk along that stretch of Yale between 21st and 31st?

We are failing at every standard for complete streets, it's a joke that anyone would actually think that just because we are building sidewalks in new street projects that we are actually doing any good.

Few easy ways to solve this entire drama:

1. Instate neighborhood parking permits, fine and tow people who park in the areas they shouldn't. Every major city does this. Give residents temporary parking passes for guests to put in their windshield.

2. Redesign Riverside Drive to have 10 foot lanes. This would add an extra 6 feet between pedestrians and cars (if you count just the extra room from the 2 northbound lanes). You could potentially add over 12 feet between the road and the sidewalk if you pushed the road as far west as proposed, and built the sidewalk as far east as proposed with 10 foot lanes. How much safer would that make the sidewalk? Yet no one has even mentioned this.

3. Use the money saved from narrower street widths to plant trees and install barriers to prevent any cars from leaving Riverside accidentally. This would actually create an enjoyable and pleasant walking experience for pedestrians.

The sidewalk proposed right now is a failure in regards to proper complete streets standards. While better than 99% of sidewalks in this city, why are we still settling for "OK"? Especially leading from Downtown to a $300 million public park?


Were you at the meeting last night?  those are basically, point for point, what others said.

And I agree.  After listening for two hours (and per my earlier posts on this subject, being ambivalent about the sidewalk in general) it is apparent that "the sidewalk" is a proxy fight for general pedestrian access and reduction of the car-centric mentality overall.  All the other issues are either minor and could be overcome, or the personal pity party of a few homeowners.  (while I don't discount their irritation the "I don't want anybody parking on my street" argument just doesn't weigh heavily in the decision.  Unless of course you are Dewey's friend...)

I'll give Dewey credit for at least mentioning an option (used in Portland when they visited) to reduce the four lanes to two with striping and use the added lanes for turning.  I doubt we'll see that, but at least he said it out loud.

I thin(k) there is a dive bar town hall next week on sidewalks.  I'm planning on attending.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on November 25, 2014, 01:29:26 pm
LandArchPoke is absolutely right about the lane width, and I'm amazed that nobody's talking about it.  As a friend of mine said yesterday: "If the mayor is so worried about people driving so fast that you can't walk on the sidewalk, why don't they FIX THE DESIGN OF THE STREET?" 

14' wide lanes are insane.  Drivers respond instinctively to lane width. A big, straight, wide road with no pedestrian activity tells your brain "this is an interstate highway" and your foot and the gas pedal respond accordingly. 

The neighbors should be up in arms about the proposed "highway modifications" for Riverside Drive.  14'-wide lanes will increase driver speed, which will increase the chances of being rear-ended or T-boned when entering/exiting neighborhood streets.  14'-wide lanes will also increase the severity of those accidents.

Totally agree with LandArchPoke that narrower lanes would not only slow drivers down, they would allow much better buffer zones between cars and pedestrians on the sidewalk.  They would also allow enough room for street trees to thrive and provide shade to the pedestrians on the sidewalk.

All of these things encourage walking AND safety.  Pleasant, attractive, wide sidewalks encourage a practical alternative to driving.  Narrow lanes lower vehicular speeds.  Larger buffer zones between sidewalks and streets add to pedestrian comfort; they also allow for healthy street trees, which not only subconsciously cause drivers to slow down, they make walking in Oklahoma summers bearable.

I hate that this is even a discussion. It's such a no-brainer.  And it's sad that Tulsa is so far behind the curve...and so timid and afraid of every good thing that comes our way. 

You did a great job on the news last night.  Very well-said and presented!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 25, 2014, 02:00:12 pm
Were you at the meeting last night?  those are basically, point for point, what others said.

And I agree.  After listening for two hours (and per my earlier posts on this subject, being ambivalent about the sidewalk in general) it is apparent that "the sidewalk" is a proxy fight for general pedestrian access and reduction of the car-centric mentality overall.  All the other issues are either minor and could be overcome, or the personal pity party of a few homeowners.  (while I don't discount their irritation the "I don't want anybody parking on my street" argument just doesn't weigh heavily in the decision.  Unless of course you are Dewey's friend...)

I'll give Dewey credit for at least mentioning an option (used in Portland when they visited) to reduce the four lanes to two with striping and use the added lanes for turning.  I doubt we'll see that, but at least he said it out loud.

I thin(k) there is a dive bar town hall next week on sidewalks.  I'm planning on attending.



I wasn't at the meeting last night, unfortunately got caught at work. I'm planning on going to the dive bar town hall however.

I was basing that no one was really talking about it based off what's been published in the Tulsa World and the letter from Smart Growth Tulsa. I haven't seen anything said about lane widths and how we could improve pedestrian safety. It kind of seems like two kids fighting with one saying "I demand a sidewalk" and the other saying "Nah uh, I said no sidewalk". There doesn't seem to be much willingness from either side to sit down and figure out how to compromise and get this built to ensure safety and designed in a manner respectful to the neighborhood.

Here are two great articles, one about the safety issues of wider lanes and the other about road diets:

http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/10/why-12-foot-traffic-lanes-are-disastrous-for-safety-and-must-be-replaced-now/381117/

http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/09/so-what-exactly-is-a-road-diet/379975/


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on November 26, 2014, 08:29:36 am
The Boston guy and marathon runner were the most important speakers at the meeting. If people who care about this city were paying attention they would build the sidewalk.

W either keep the millennials, or we lose them, you decide.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on November 26, 2014, 11:56:21 am
14' wide lanes are insane.  Drivers respond instinctively to lane width. A big, straight, wide road with no pedestrian activity tells your brain "this is an interstate highway" and your foot and the gas pedal respond accordingly. 

The neighbors should be up in arms about the proposed "highway modifications" for Riverside Drive.  14'-wide lanes will increase driver speed, which will increase the chances of being rear-ended or T-boned when entering/exiting neighborhood streets.  14'-wide lanes will also increase the severity of those accidents.

I must admit those details got past me as well.  Maybe its the Riverside Expressway plan with lipstick?
Its agreed, though, wider lanes (and for that matter, bright continuous lighting) invite higher speeds.

...but with all the signals green, who wants to go back to the drawing board?   Im betting not the contractors.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on November 26, 2014, 01:36:15 pm
Lots of good points made to which I have nothing to add.  I do wonder, however, what those who are funding the $350 million park to which the discussed sidewalk will go have to say about the matter.  They would seem to have a pretty strong interest in the outcome of this debate.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Bamboo World on November 26, 2014, 04:09:07 pm
Pleasant, attractive, wide sidewalks encourage a practical alternative to driving.  Narrow lanes lower vehicular speeds.  Larger buffer zones between sidewalks and streets add to pedestrian comfort; they also allow for healthy street trees, which not only subconsciously cause drivers to slow down, they make walking in Oklahoma summers bearable.

So, I'm guessing that the video of Barbo [sic] Cox in high heels traipsing through mud and tree roots didn't convince you of the dangers of walking along Riverside???

http://youtu.be/5gzKqnRrIJw


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on November 26, 2014, 10:14:09 pm
So, I'm guessing that the video of Barbo Cox in high heels traipsing through mud and tree roots didn't convince you of the dangers of walking along Riverside???

http://youtu.be/5gzKqnRrIJw

Okay, I could see where the sidewalk intersects with side streets that being an issue.  We still have the same design issue with miles of our sidewalks all over town along main arterials.  Just interesting the only place this presents a safety concern is where it backs up to about eight properties in Maple Ridge.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Ben on November 28, 2014, 10:58:59 am
Okay, I could see where the sidewalk intersects with side streets that being an issue.  We still have the same design issue with miles of our sidewalks all over town along main arterials.  Just interesting the only place this presents a safety concern is where it backs up to about eight properties in Maple Ridge.

That seemed an odd argument to me also. Sidewalks intersect side streets...that is sort how it works. So what makes these particular side street intersections more dangerous then any other around the city?

Overall I am on the build the sidewalk side. I agree with those above who said the bigger issue is the design of the street. I was not at the meeting, but from that article's I read it sounded like the mayor said that we should wait and see how fast people drive on Riverside. That seems really backwards to me. Why not decide how fast you want people to drive then build the road appropriately?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on November 30, 2014, 12:23:06 am
That seemed an odd argument to me also. Sidewalks intersect side streets...that is sort how it works. So what makes these particular side street intersections more dangerous then any other around the city?

Overall I am on the build the sidewalk side. I agree with those above who said the bigger issue is the design of the street. I was not at the meeting, but from that article's I read it sounded like the mayor said that we should wait and see how fast people drive on Riverside. That seems really backwards to me. Why not decide how fast you want people to drive then build the road appropriately?


Yeah, how about let’s not design the damn road to interstate spec, and let’s patrol the speeds. 

It truly amazes me Tulsa has made it as far as it has in +/-120 years with the thought process of our local government.  Their stupidity is enough to make you want to climb a clock tower with an AK.  :o


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on November 30, 2014, 05:19:35 pm
Lots of good points made to which I have nothing to add.  I do wonder, however, what those who are funding the $350 million park to which the discussed sidewalk will go have to say about the matter.  They would seem to have a pretty strong interest in the outcome of this debate.

If you did a Venn diagram of Maple Ridge Homeowners and people connected to park donors, there is an overlap. (Not Kaiser, he lives like 3 miles from the park, but other donor entities.)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on December 01, 2014, 12:29:04 pm
This part is insane. It proves that this has nothing to do with pedestrian safety since the mayor's alternate plan puts pedestrians right into the middle of the street.

The sidewalk was initially planned to start at 21st and Boulder's Veteran's Park and connect to Gathering Place. Pedestrians will have to use a crosswalk to detour to the west side of Riverside Drive then cross back over into the park at a land bridge.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 02, 2014, 11:27:07 pm
I drove by there today. Hard to envision how a sidewalk would look there. I am also not sure I want any more stops/slow downs on Riverside.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 02, 2014, 11:40:23 pm
I drove by there today. Hard to envision how a sidewalk would look there. I am also not sure I want any more stops/slow downs on Riverside.


Riverside used to be the best road in town - it was its own tourist attraction!  It has nearly been ruined.  Certainly badly compromised.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 03, 2014, 12:18:39 am
I drove by there today. Hard to envision how a sidewalk would look there. I am also not sure I want any more stops/slow downs on Riverside.

You need to get into the urban mindset.  A stoplight at every intersection.  Kind of like Memorial down here by us.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: davideinstein on December 03, 2014, 08:42:50 am
I drove by there today. Hard to envision how a sidewalk would look there. I am also not sure I want any more stops/slow downs on Riverside.

Highway 75 is an option.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on December 03, 2014, 10:48:57 am
You need to get into the urban mindset.  A stoplight at every intersection.  Kind of like Memorial down here by us.
 
 ;D

There is definitely an undercurrent to the whole discussion where a lot of people simply don't want to give up Riverside as a de-facto highway to downtown.  But there is no getting around it, if the pedestrian (or generally non-auto) traffic along Riverside is to safely increase, the cars will have to slow down.  It wouldn't take a light at every corner, but a couple of well-placed ones timed at, say, 35 mph would fix most of the issue.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 03, 2014, 11:10:34 am
There is definitely an undercurrent to the whole discussion where a lot of people simply don't want to give up Riverside as a de-facto highway to downtown.  But there is no getting around it, if the pedestrian (or generally non-auto) traffic along Riverside is to safely increase, the cars will have to slow down.  It wouldn't take a light at every corner, but a couple of well-placed ones timed at, say, 35 mph would fix most of the issue.

As it is now, Riverside has a light at every intersection with a major arterial between 101st & 15th with the exception of 21st since there are merge on/off lanes there.  One more stoplight there wouldn’t really be a hardship for most commuters.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 03, 2014, 10:55:16 pm
Highway 75 is an option.

No, its not an option. It's another route that is in perpetual road construction hell. My beef is with why we have to keep messing with what was working just fine. It was such a nice road to cruise down.

But let's add another stop light (then another, etc.), and another "venue", and hey, why not a car dealership just north of 71st so we turn Riverside into freakin Memorial Ave. Real convenient for commuters that work downtown.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 03, 2014, 10:59:45 pm
You need to get into the urban mindset.  A stoplight at every intersection.  Kind of like Memorial down here by us.
 
 ;D


Maybe that is why I would like one, just one, arterial to be NOT like every other one. So now you turn Riverside into a road navigating around a playground.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 04, 2014, 03:52:18 am
Just curious, why is it that most major cities have sidewalks that are next to major thoroughfares that have speed limits at 40 to 45 mph and have a distance of 8' between the curb and privacy walls for homes or open space, don't have the carnage that everyone is afraid of? Maybe they should think of controlling the car traffic along Riverside Drive with the traffic lights to keep the speed at 35mph, much like three main arterials in Phoenix, 7th street, Central Ave, and 7th Ave, were you have four lanes of traffic with a center turn lane, that during the morning there is "No Left Turn" going into town, and in the evening, there is "No Left Turn" going out of town. It works quite well, and if you hit it right (not hard to do) you can drive 7 miles without stopping.

I believe that "A Gathering Place" is a great thing for Tulsa, but there is some common sense ideas for traffic control, and pedestrian safety that it seems that no one has seen on all of the trips to other cities for ideas.

By the way, Tempe Arizona is looking at putting in a street car system, and at the moment the cost is $200 million dollars for 3 miles of street car.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/letters/2014/12/02/tempe-streetcar-buses/19803493/ (http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/letters/2014/12/02/tempe-streetcar-buses/19803493/)

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2014/11/28/tempe-streetcar-track-cost-million/19640929/ (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2014/11/28/tempe-streetcar-track-cost-million/19640929/)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on December 04, 2014, 08:20:49 am
Wonder what His Honor thinks about the sidewalk at Denver and Riverside? It sits right on the curb, no buffer and is highly utilized by pedestrians crossing to the park and commuters racing in and out of downtown and has been this way for more than 20 years.

I have never heard of a car jumping onto the sidewalk there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 04, 2014, 08:42:38 am
Wonder what His Honor thinks about the sidewalk at Denver and Riverside? It sits right on the curb, no buffer and is highly utilized by pedestrians crossing to the park and commuters racing in and out of downtown and has been this way for more than 20 years.

I have never heard of a car jumping onto the sidewalk there.

Must be because there is no water fountain.
 
 ;D



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on December 04, 2014, 12:22:23 pm
But let's add another stop light (then another, etc.), and another "venue", and hey, why not a car dealership just north of 71st so we turn Riverside into freakin Memorial Ave. Real convenient for commuters that work downtown.

Is that what's being built North of Luby's?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on December 04, 2014, 01:39:22 pm
No, its not an option. It's another route that is in perpetual road construction hell. My beef is with why we have to keep messing with what was working just fine. It was such a nice road to cruise down.

But let's add another stop light (then another, etc.), and another "venue", and hey, why not a car dealership just north of 71st so we turn Riverside into freakin Memorial Ave. Real convenient for commuters that work downtown.


"My beef is with why we have to keep messing with what was working just fine"

That, in a nutshell, has been the problem with the thinking in Tulsa for the last 20 years and look were we are;  Behind OKC and most other similar cities, at least relative to where Tulsa was in the past.  "Just fine" isn't good enough.




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 04, 2014, 02:05:15 pm

"My beef is with why we have to keep messing with what was working just fine"

That, in a nutshell, has been the problem with the thinking in Tulsa for the last 20 years and look were we are;  Behind OKC and most other similar cities, at least relative to where Tulsa was in the past.  "Just fine" isn't good enough.





guido didn't describe it quite right - it was much more than "just fine".  It was one of those little things that added together with others makes a city an interesting destination point.  Riverside Drive used to be an exceptional, quirky, nice road feature in an otherwise homogenous, boring landscape of roads/traffic lights.  Tulsa screwed the pooch in a BIG way with the unrestrained rush to "development" and ruined it.  OKC has/had nothing like it.  Most cities don't - they sold out to the traffic light mentality decades ago.

It was our version of the Seattle Troll.... but with real value as a transportation lane that actually got people to an fro.   Now,.... well, it's just another road....










Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 04, 2014, 07:42:27 pm
Is that what's being built North of Luby's?

Dude, I was kidding. Are you telling me something is going in over there?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on December 04, 2014, 10:23:35 pm
Dude, I was kidding. Are you telling me something is going in over there?

Something is under construction. Technically 71st and peoria.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Bones013 on December 05, 2014, 08:01:55 am
It's a Taco Bueno.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/fortherecord/for-the-record/article_095bbec9-21fb-5b7e-bec3-d052b419d237.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on December 05, 2014, 09:48:42 am
guido didn't describe it quite right - it was much more than "just fine".  It was one of those little things that added together with others makes a city an interesting destination point.  Riverside Drive used to be an exceptional, quirky, nice road feature in an otherwise homogenous, boring landscape of roads/traffic lights.  Tulsa screwed the pooch in a BIG way with the unrestrained rush to "development" and ruined it.  OKC has/had nothing like it.  Most cities don't - they sold out to the traffic light mentality decades ago.

It was our version of the Seattle Troll.... but with real value as a transportation lane that actually got people to an fro.   Now,.... well, it's just another road....

I guess I've just never been enamored with the type of drive you describe.  For example, I've spent a ton of time in San Francisco and a lot of people really like to cruise the Embarcadaro.  But I'd rather be one of the ones I see on a bike or jogging on the trails rather than touring it in a car.  (Actually have done that, pretty cool area once you slow down and enjoy it...) 

Obviously JMHO, but I'd rather slow it down and see the area full of parks and trails and other activities, and water in the river, than a fast multi-lane thoroughfare.   

[Just threw the "water in the river" piece in to annoy people...  :) ]


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 05, 2014, 09:55:39 am
I guess I've just never been enamored with the type of drive you describe.  For example, I've spent a ton of time in San Francisco and a lot of people really like to cruise the Embarcadaro.  But I'd rather be one of the ones I see on a bike or jogging on the trails rather than touring it in a car.  (Actually have done that, pretty cool area once you slow down and enjoy it...) 

Obviously JMHO, but I'd rather slow it down and see the area full of parks and trails and other activities, and water in the river, than a fast multi-lane thoroughfare.   

[Just threw the "water in the river" piece in to annoy people...  :) ]

I’d rather ride down the middle of 111th st at 15 mph and really piss Guido off.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 05, 2014, 10:11:36 am
I guess I've just never been enamored with the type of drive you describe.  For example, I've spent a ton of time in San Francisco and a lot of people really like to cruise the Embarcadaro.  But I'd rather be one of the ones I see on a bike or jogging on the trails rather than touring it in a car.  (Actually have done that, pretty cool area once you slow down and enjoy it...) 

Obviously JMHO, but I'd rather slow it down and see the area full of parks and trails and other activities, and water in the river, than a fast multi-lane thoroughfare.   

[Just threw the "water in the river" piece in to annoy people...  :) ]


We like the car ride as well as the motor bike and pedal bike rides.  The big benefit we see to the car ride is we can get a "taste" of the experience when in a limited time-frame; would rather get 20 minutes of that than miss out completely due to lack of 2 hours to ride/walk.  And rides like the Tallgrass Prairie are certainly viable for Harley and/or bicycle, but take more time than we generally have available.  And riding on 15 miles of gravel kind of takes some of the "relaxation" factor out of it.  Vacation is for Harley rides, and casual pedaling around is for bicycle....we don't do serious pedal bike anymore.

Yeah, Riverside is just a city street, but before any of the lights and all the "improvements" for traffic control, it was a nice ride where you could just set the cruise on about 30 - 35 and except for rush hour, have a nice ride past the park areas there - similar to the walk/bike thing, but in a car.  I don't remember ever walking more than just a few hundred yards on the trails, but have ridden a bike there quite a bit and I think it is magnificent!!  Way better than anything OKC has!

Rush hour was always a 50 mph mess on Riverside road.  Still is.




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 05, 2014, 10:47:51 am

We like the car ride as well as the motor bike and pedal bike rides.  The big benefit we see to the car ride is we can get a "taste" of the experience when in a limited time-frame; would rather get 20 minutes of that than miss out completely due to lack of 2 hours to ride/walk.  And rides like the Tallgrass Prairie are certainly viable for Harley and/or bicycle, but take more time than we generally have available.  And riding on 15 miles of gravel kind of takes some of the "relaxation" factor out of it.  Vacation is for Harley rides, and casual pedaling around is for bicycle....we don't do serious pedal bike anymore.

Yeah, Riverside is just a city street, but before any of the lights and all the "improvements" for traffic control, it was a nice ride where you could just set the cruise on about 30 - 35 and except for rush hour, have a nice ride past the park areas there - similar to the walk/bike thing, but in a car.  I don't remember ever walking more than just a few hundred yards on the trails, but have ridden a bike there quite a bit and I think it is magnificent!!  Way better than anything OKC has!

Rush hour was always a 50 mph mess on Riverside road.  Still is.




“Gravel grinding” has become hugely popular now.  There’s a 200 mile race starting in Emporia, Ks. called Dirty Kanza 200 that is run in May.  Stillwater has a race which is really growing called “The Land Run 100”.  Oklahoma has some great gravel roads for pedaling.  Frames are very similar to road bikes, but the forks and rear stays are set wider to accommodate wider tires as well as disc brakes or cantilever brakes rather than the standard road brake.  Tires are similar to “commuter” tires.  

I personally enjoy it more than riding pavement any more for the simple fact there’s far less traffic to deal with though there is the occasional overly friendly farm dog or bridge out no one knew about.  I have a horrible fear of heights so I elected to carry my bike over briars to the creek bed 25 feet below and portage over a beaver dam.  This was out NW of Bristow last weekend.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10610543_10152529061673543_8560477034849476863_n.jpg?oh=a41e7034d370dce2a9782b80f8e66999&oe=550EF8E9&__gda__=1428136892_8b3ee016306eab294ce3961af9673ad9)



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on December 05, 2014, 01:10:11 pm
It's a Taco Bueno.

Thumbs up emoticon


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on December 05, 2014, 01:10:49 pm
I’d rather ride down the middle of 111th st at 15 mph and really piss Guido off.

Stay off my street, grill meat.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 05, 2014, 01:40:46 pm
“Gravel grinding” has become hugely popular now.  There’s a 200 mile race starting in Emporia, Ks. called Dirty Kanza 200 that is run in May.  Stillwater has a race which is really growing called “The Land Run 100”.  Oklahoma has some great gravel roads for pedaling.  Frames are very similar to road bikes, but the forks and rear stays are set wider to accommodate wider tires as well as disc brakes or cantilever brakes rather than the standard road brake.  Tires are similar to “commuter” tires.  

I personally enjoy it more than riding pavement any more for the simple fact there’s far less traffic to deal with though there is the occasional overly friendly farm dog or bridge out no one knew about.  I have a horrible fear of heights so I elected to carry my bike over briars to the creek bed 25 feet below and portage over a beaver dam.  This was out NW of Bristow last weekend.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10610543_10152529061673543_8560477034849476863_n.jpg?oh=a41e7034d370dce2a9782b80f8e66999&oe=550EF8E9&__gda__=1428136892_8b3ee016306eab294ce3961af9673ad9)




I made a ride on the HD one summer (Aug) through Death Valley, several months after spring rains had washed out the road - 12 miles of coarse gravel on the back of the "air cooled" heater - at 124 degrees outside air temp.  It put me off any kind of gravel for a long, long time - on any 2 wheeled conveyance.  I have noticed in the last 3 or 4 years while car driving some of our gravel roads that they looked like they would be fun on a bicycle.  Glad to get your input on that - I didn't even know where to start to look at it....

Nice picture - looks like a bridge at about mile 156 on the Turner Turnpike that they finally replaced a few years ago!!  Bristow, huh?  Used to be a nice little barbeque place there that we would go to once in a while....can't remember the name, but it was outside town, I think on southeast side....  I think it started with a B.   ?

The bikes in your pic look kinda conventional...are they setup that way you are talking about??


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 05, 2014, 01:56:05 pm

I made a ride on the HD one summer (Aug) through Death Valley, several months after spring rains had washed out the road - 12 miles of coarse gravel on the back of the "air cooled" heater - at 124 degrees outside air temp.  It put me off any kind of gravel for a long, long time - on any 2 wheeled conveyance.  I have noticed in the last 3 or 4 years while car driving some of our gravel roads that they looked like they would be fun on a bicycle.  Glad to get your input on that - I didn't even know where to start to look at it....

Nice picture - looks like a bridge at about mile 156 on the Turner Turnpike that they finally replaced a few years ago!!  Bristow, huh?  Used to be a nice little barbeque place there that we would go to once in a while....can't remember the name, but it was outside town, I think on southeast side....  I think it started with a B.   ?

The bikes in your pic look kinda conventional...are they setup that way you are talking about??


Those are all gravel bikes or cyclocross bikes.  Basically a road frame geometry which will take the wider knobby tires.  The tires I use are more of a file tread with very small tits and larger knobs on the side for better cornering.  Less drag.  Typical road tires are 700 x 19 or 23.  Most gravel guys prefer a 700 x 34 to 40.  40 is about a 1” wide tread patch.  Much more than that and you are into mountain bike territory on tires.

The only BBQ place I can think of in Bristow was in the south part of downtown right where 66 cuts back west.  It’s gone now.

Sorry for the sidetrack folks, oh Marshall’s is doing growler fills from noon to 6 today of their Mosaic IPA.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Ed W on December 07, 2014, 03:39:24 pm
After interviewing Dewey and Paul Zachary, head of the city's engineering services, City Auditor Cathy Criswell cleared his honor the mayor of ethics complaints.

I can only imagine the conversation was something like, "Did you commit any ethics violations in squashing this proposed sidewalk?"

"No, I did not."

"Thanks, I'm glad."

In today's Whirled:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/city-auditor-clears-tulsa-mayor-of-ethics-violation-in-riverside/article_1c685363-506c-5923-88ef-e0af49cb6c62.html



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on December 08, 2014, 01:09:22 pm
Some Building Underway at the Gathering Place

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/some-building-underway-gathering-place (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/some-building-underway-gathering-place)

Quote
There’s a new building going up at the site of the under-construction Gathering Place.

Project manager Jeff Stava says the temporary office building will have space for Manhattan Construction — the company building the park — and everyone else involved.

"They'll have their procurement people, their site supervision, a lot of their costing and administrative type folks, so there will be a lot of people there," Stava said. "Plus our architects, MVVA, will have an office there, the foundation will have an office, too."

The 7,200 square foot building is 19 feet tall. It will be at 31st Street and Boston Place. The temporary metal building will be gussied up a bit.

"On the exterior, to the north and on the east side, we're actually putting up 3.5 feet of a stone veneer, and then it's got a shake-shingle board — that's kind of a painted board that's used then," Stava said. "And then we put shutters on all the windows to kind of make it fit in."

Right now workers are laying the foundation and running utilities.

"And by the end of the month — we'll continue to work and get the interior built out — but by the end of the month, the first of January, we should have it complete," Stava said.

The metal building will be torn down when the park is complete in 2017. Stava said it can be reused. There may be some lane closures on 31st Street while it’s being built.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: PonderInc on December 08, 2014, 09:13:45 pm
I couldn't be at the "Dive Bar" town hall on sidewalks tonight.  If anyone was able to go, I'd really like to hear how it went.  Any new info about Dooey's unintelligent intransigence re: a sidewalk for Riverside?  Any more discussion about the ridiculous widening of Riverside and how it will increase traffic speed?  (For me, this relates directly to the sidewalk issue.)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on December 09, 2014, 07:44:13 am
I heard something about he is now proposing a redesign of Riverside Dr to accommodate the sidewalk.  Was this discussed last night?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on December 09, 2014, 09:01:24 am
Did you guys see this hilarious vidja that some of the neighbors produced?

http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2014/12/3/friday-news-digest-12514?utm_content=buffer1fd65&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer (http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2014/12/3/friday-news-digest-12514?utm_content=buffer1fd65&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AngieB on December 09, 2014, 09:33:15 am
With all those cars that are apparently jumping the curb all along the way, I am surprised there are any fences or trees left!  ::)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 09, 2014, 10:56:41 am
About 2:45 in they show Bob and Jodi Pielsticker. Any relation to Arrow Trucking?

Also, you can see in this photo how terrified people are of cars going past at 50mph.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5706251,-111.90437,3a,75y,156.56h,77.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sLrAKsK-d3bTOsQfzdyJbqw!2e0?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5706251,-111.90437,3a,75y,156.56h,77.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sLrAKsK-d3bTOsQfzdyJbqw!2e0?hl=en)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 09, 2014, 07:31:30 pm
I’d rather ride down the middle of 111th st at 15 mph and really piss Guido off.
YES!!!!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 09, 2014, 07:46:03 pm
Did you guys see this hilarious vidja that some of the neighbors produced?

http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2014/12/3/friday-news-digest-12514?utm_content=buffer1fd65&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer (http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2014/12/3/friday-news-digest-12514?utm_content=buffer1fd65&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

What's so funny about it? Sounds like some people who actually live in that area expressing dissatisfaction with having more intrusion into their lives. Is it funny that the production value wasn't better? 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on December 09, 2014, 08:12:45 pm
I thought it was funny that it showed people walking along a grassy path saying that a sidewalk would be more dangerous than walking along a grassy path.

Maybe funny is the wrong word. Ironic is better.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 09, 2014, 08:38:11 pm
YES!!!!

Will you be going east or west? I'll go the other way to be sure he cannot escape by deftly moving to the opposite lane.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on December 10, 2014, 08:56:48 am
What's so funny about it? Sounds like some people who actually live in that area expressing dissatisfaction with having more intrusion into their lives. Is it funny that the production value wasn't better? 

oh come on. A sidewalk is not an intrusion into anyone's life.

It looks like the mayor is proposing a change to the proposed Riverside drive design that would allow more space for this sidewalk. Good for him, this is a good sign. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 10, 2014, 09:34:40 am
I thought it was funny that it showed people walking along a grassy path saying that a sidewalk would be more dangerous than walking along a grassy path.

Maybe funny is the wrong word. Ironic is better.


I think "stupid" is the word you are looking for, but are too polite to use!


I like grassy paths well enough, but sidewalk is more likely to be safer overall.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 10, 2014, 10:32:36 am
oh come on. A sidewalk is not an intrusion into anyone's life.

I'll have to disagree that "A sidewalk is not an intrusion into anyone's life" but they make sense in an area with some density.  Sidewalks require shoveling when it snows, edging in the summer, occasional replacement of sections due to damage (tree roots at the house where I grew up), sweeping etc.  However, if you don't want that, move to an area with less density like where I am now on approximately 1 acre lots.  Not much traffic because there aren't many reasons to be driving back here.  Walking in the streets is not a problem.  If there are several houses per acre you need sidewalks.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on December 10, 2014, 10:45:40 am
What's so funny about it? Sounds like some people who actually live in that area expressing dissatisfaction with having more intrusion into their lives. Is it funny that the production value wasn't better? 

I was in the meeting when they showed this video, and I happened to be sitting next a gentleman who was from the area and later spoke against the sidewalk.  He was obviously very excited about the video, and thought it was great.  My reaction (and he and I spoke about it during the meeting) was that while I am a bit ambivalent about the sidewalk in general,  the video misses the mark and borders on being humorous (I didn't go as far as stupid, but that was my reaction also).  He did not appreciate my comments.

But to your point Guido, the video is specifically NOT presented as people "expressing dissatisfaction with having more intrusion into their lives".  That is, at it's core, the reason for their irritation but they rightfully understand that saying "I don't want people parking on my street or walking past my house" is not going to be a message that is well-received by the general public.  Instead, they attempt to present a string of rationalizations and false comparisons, along with a comical scene of a women walking in high-heels on uneven grass about a foot from the roadway and declaring she felt uncomfortable about it.  (Pretty sure when this section came on during the meeting, I audibly said "you have got to be kidding...")

So again, I'm on the fence regarding the sidewalk (although generally for it), and I do appreciate that it is going to impact the current residents somewhat.  That said, here is a quick (and I am sure incomplete) list of the problems with the video:

- They go to great pains to illustrate the existing paths, and highlight that two other trails already exist. (Across Riverside, and Midland Valley) / Counter: This was my initial thought as well, but is immaterial.  There is no doubt that the sidewalk would improve access to the park, especially from the West side of the neighborhood in question  (as shown in the video where the highlight the side streets in yellow). 

- They use the false comparison of safety (on an absolute measure) between the proposed sidewalk and Midland Valley Trail.  / Counter:  Of course the MVT is safer in an absolute sense than the sidewalk.  This would be true of comparing the MVT to any sidewalk in Tulsa, as there are no cars alongside the MVT.  Again, the question is not "is this sidewalk as safe as some other alternative", but rather simply "is it safe as compared to similar sidewalks, or simply safe in general".

- The point about the sidewalk crossing the side streets is simply laughable.  This is perhaps the biggest "reach" argument they attempted.  Sidewalks, almost by definition, cross streets at intersections.  Especially given that the streets in question are very low-volume streets specific to that neighborhood, and given that this same scenario exists throughout the city, bringing it up as a negative point is simply unfounded.

- The portion of the video showing Barbo Cox and companion attempting to walk in high-heels immediately adjacent (and very close) to the roadway, on rough unkempt grassy terrain, is (at best, and think I'm being forgiving here) another false comparison.   Even the most unfamiliar with the proposed sidewalk understands that "it's not going to look like that when it's done".    Of all the attempted points in the video, I thought was the point where the video "jumped the shark", and went so far as to be negative to their overall attempted message.

- They finally came back to the real point at the very end, and briefly mention that the anticipate additional cars parked in the area will be an inconvenience.  But they again miss the mark by attempting to suggest it is a major safety issue, and by that section in the video most viewers will have already discounted any further points.

Again,  I appreciate and understand their concerns about increased parking and traffic in their neighborhood.  And I think some good arguments could be made that (for at least that small area) some changes in street parking could/should be made.  If they had taken this route, I think they would have been more successful, but as it is I think the video is counter-productive to their goals.




Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 10, 2014, 11:09:06 am
Again,  I appreciate and understand their concerns about increased parking and traffic in their neighborhood.  And I think some good arguments could be made that (for at least that small area) some changes in street parking could/should be made.  If they had taken this route, I think they would have been more successful, but as it is I think the video is counter-productive to their goals.

Parking on one side of the street only could be an option.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on December 10, 2014, 11:47:05 am
FACT: The gathering place will have on site parking and lots of it
FACT: People will park on the PUBLIC street during events just as they do now
FACT: in the video a couple of residents says that people should walk down the jogging/biking path to get to the gathering place, (she does not state where these people should park.)

PERCEPTION: This sidewalk will create more pedestrian traffic walking from parked cars in the neighborhood.

My take is that the property owners that abut Riverside do not want the right of way to be altered. The right of way is going to be altered whether there is a sidewalk there or not. Because of the width of the lanes as designed there will be less right of way and the road (and potentially the sidewalk) are going to be closer to their properties and their houses.

The best sollution is to redesign the road which the mayor has stated he would be interested in pursuing.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 10, 2014, 11:59:24 am

FACT: in the video a couple of residents says that people should walk down the jogging/biking path to get to the gathering place, (she does not state where these people should park.)


This is what I find funny. In reality all the property owners along Riverside have worked up all the other Maple Ridge residents into thinking this is "bad for all of them", when in reality they are just shifting people parking and (gasp) people walking by their house to the property owners abutting the MVT. If people are going to use this way to enter the park, they are going to park as close as they can to the trail and the park instead of parking close to Riverside and using the sidewalk. If I was a property owner anywhere else in Maple Ridge I'd be mad, and tell the folks living along Riverside to deal with it because you're the one who bought property next to a large public thoroughfare.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on December 10, 2014, 12:05:33 pm
That plus the lack of a sidewalk is not going to stop people from walking on the east side of Riverside...they will just walk in the grass as exhibited by the residents in the vidja.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Bamboo World on December 10, 2014, 12:36:07 pm
...the lack of a sidewalk is not going to stop people from walking on the east side of Riverside...they will just walk in the grass...

...and, some people might decide to walk through mud and tree roots in high heels, as Barbo [sic] Cox chose to do.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 10, 2014, 01:03:20 pm
If they are so concerned with their quality of life and privacy in their neighborhood,  let them rezone it as private streets, put up a security gate, have an HOA that they pay dues to to cover street maintenance and then they can walk down the middle of the street and not worry about outsiders parking in front of their homes. Then they will have their little utopia and not be bothered by the common folk.

Nice little NIMBY video.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 15, 2014, 10:29:03 pm
If they are so concerned with their quality of life and privacy in their neighborhood,  let them rezone it as private streets, put up a security gate, have an HOA that they pay dues to to cover street maintenance and then they can walk down the middle of the street and not worry about outsiders parking in front of their homes. Then they will have their little utopia and not be bothered by the common folk.

Nice little NIMBY video.

Maybe what these people want are folks that don't live in this area to APPRECIATE their concerns. Maybe if this was your neighborhood that is about to eat a ton of new traffic, have bunches of strange people walking around your house at all hours, cars parking in front of your house, etc. you might have some empathy for their lot.

But hey, after reading about how awful and unfair owners wanting to development their own property for an outlet mall is unfair to those non-property owners using Turkey Mountain at no cost to them, and how those people's opinions should be taken seriously, maybe the same courtesy can be extended to Maple Ridge folks. Here's a thought. Maybe those people who are upset about the outlet mall can make a video or use some other media that we all can make fun of. That would be a hoot.

edited.

I did see that those opposing the outlet mall have gone all Facebook-y.

https://www.facebook.com/NoMallByTurkeyMountain

On the cover page there is a pic of a guy running. Were is that?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 15, 2014, 10:31:38 pm
If I was a property owner anywhere else in Maple Ridge I'd be mad, and tell the folks living along Riverside to deal with it because you're the one who bought property next to a large public thoroughfare.

Did they buy that property thinking that "public thoroughfare" would turn into the public's playground?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on December 15, 2014, 10:47:09 pm
Maybe what these people want are folks that don't live in this area to APPRECIATE their concerns. Maybe if this was your neighborhood that is about to eat a ton of new traffic, have bunches of strange people walking around your house at all hours, cars parking in front of your house, etc. you might have some empathy for their lot.
 

I would love that to happen in my neighborhood!  Sign me up! It would almost be like living in a normal city like normal human beings.  This city is so dead and depressing.  You rarely see other human beings out and about.  No wonder our suicide rates in these suburban style neighborhoods are some of the highest in the world (even higher than our high homicide rates, but doesn't make the news for some reason).

Heck, we live in a city with a metro of nearly a million and I can't even get "people walking around and parking in front of my store at all hours".... in the middle of downtown! Egads!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on December 15, 2014, 10:47:51 pm
Did they buy that property thinking that "public thoroughfare" would turn into the public's playground?

Who would have thought they could be so lucky?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 15, 2014, 10:57:47 pm
Did they buy that property thinking that "public thoroughfare" would turn into the public's playground?

How long has RiverParks been there? It didn't magically turn into the public's playground over night when this park was announced. It's been that way for decades. Before that, it was going to be an Expressway.

You do realize how much parks increase property values too right? It's funny that all these people in Maple Ridge have their pants so tightly in a bunch over this when in 10 years this park will help their property appreciate probably faster than almost any neighborhood in the State of Oklahoma.

If they want a private community that no one outside of them and their neighbors are allowed to walk and park in, I suggest many of the fine gated communities in South Tulsa and our other suburbs.

This still doesn't detract from the fact that the land owners along Riverside are just trying to dump the issue further to the east of them, and onto the land owners adjacent to the Midland Valley Trail. I'm amazed at how this hasn't caused a bigger rift internally in the neighborhood association. Frankly, if there is no parking in the park (which there will be plenty) and I have to walk into the park from the outside and they don't build this sidewalk... I'm still going to park in Maple Ridge. I'm just going to park in front of a house by the trail, and walk in that way instead of by one the houses by Riverside and using the sidewalk. What they don't realize is that if they are truly trying to keep outsiders from their neighborhood, they are failing at it. In the end they are just going to cost the tax payers more money when we end up building the sidewalk 2-3 year later and have to close Riverside for another 6 months to do so.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 16, 2014, 12:14:00 am
How long has RiverParks been there? It didn't magically turn into the public's playground over night when this park was announced. It's been that way for decades. Before that, it was going to be an Expressway.

You do realize how much parks increase property values too right? It's funny that all these people in Maple Ridge have their pants so tightly in a bunch over this when in 10 years this park will help their property appreciate probably faster than almost any neighborhood in the State of Oklahoma.

If they want a private community that no one outside of them and their neighbors are allowed to walk and park in, I suggest many of the fine gated communities in South Tulsa and our other suburbs.

This still doesn't detract from the fact that the land owners along Riverside are just trying to dump the issue further to the east of them, and onto the land owners adjacent to the Midland Valley Trail. I'm amazed at how this hasn't caused a bigger rift internally in the neighborhood association. Frankly, if there is no parking in the park (which there will be plenty) and I have to walk into the park from the outside and they don't build this sidewalk... I'm still going to park in Maple Ridge. I'm just going to park in front of a house by the trail, and walk in that way instead of by one the houses by Riverside and using the sidewalk. What they don't realize is that if they are truly trying to keep outsiders from their neighborhood, they are failing at it. In the end they are just going to cost the tax payers more money when we end up building the sidewalk 2-3 year later and have to close Riverside for another 6 months to do so.

Yeah. Screw those homeowners.

And speaking about pants being in a tight bunch, how come you are not so critical of those with Lycra crammed far up their rears over Turkey Mountain? Maybe you should suggest that people who want an urban wilderness should go out and buy their own damned mountain playground instead of bitching over a private developer wanting to build on their land.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 16, 2014, 08:18:43 am
Yeah. Screw those homeowners.

And speaking about pants being in a tight bunch, how come you are not so critical of those with Lycra crammed far up their rears over Turkey Mountain? Maybe you should suggest that people who want an urban wilderness should go out and buy their own damned mountain playground instead of bitching over a private developer wanting to build on their land.

Let me try to speak more simply because obviously you can't comprehend what I'm saying. If a private developer wants to build on their land and pay for the infrastructure needed to build said development, there's not much I can say unless I live adjacent and I feel like they will be having some harm to my property (water run-off, trash, etc.). What you can't seem to comprehend is the outlet mall becomes a public development as soon as they request a TIF or any form of public assistance. Get it?

As for this actual topic. What you again don't understand is the fact that this sidewalk and Riverside improvements are in fact being paid for by everyone in the City of Tulsa. Which means everyone gets to have a voice. See the parallel there? Good.

Now, Maple Ridge residents have every right to put in a voice on how these improvements are done, because at the end of the day this is their neighborhood. I think if Riverside is built the way it's currently planned (14' lanes) it might impact property values negatively along the road as it will become a defacto highway. It's not the sidewalk that will do it. I think at the end of the day this will lead to a better designed Riverside Drive (or I'm hopeful it will).


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 16, 2014, 08:47:26 am
Maybe what these people want are folks that don't live in this area to APPRECIATE their concerns. Maybe if this was your neighborhood that is about to eat a ton of new traffic, have bunches of strange people walking around your house at all hours, cars parking in front of your house, etc. you might have some empathy for their lot.

But hey, after reading about how awful and unfair owners wanting to development their own property for an outlet mall is unfair to those non-property owners using Turkey Mountain at no cost to them, and how those people's opinions should be taken seriously, maybe the same courtesy can be extended to Maple Ridge folks. Here's a thought. Maybe those people who are upset about the outlet mall can make a video or use some other media that we all can make fun of. That would be a hoot.

edited.

I did see that those opposing the outlet mall have gone all Facebook-y.

https://www.facebook.com/NoMallByTurkeyMountain

On the cover page there is a pic of a guy running. Were is that?

The nature of both of these projects involves public infrastructure and/or public funding.  That’s why citizens at large have a say.

You keep ignoring the fact that Simon has said they will be seeking a TIF for site improvements.  Their development will, without a doubt, drive more traffic to an area which does not presently have the infrastructure to support the traffic.  Couple this with additional development between I-44 and Jenks and highway 75 will require additional lanes.

What is the true net economic impact of this development between TIFs and state-paid DOT expenditures to expand and improve 75 and access the arterials intersecting 75?  There will need to be millions and millions in improvements.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 16, 2014, 08:58:01 am
Let me try to speak more simply because obviously you can't comprehend what I'm saying. If a private developer wants to build on their land and pay for the infrastructure needed to build said development, there's not much I can say unless I live adjacent and I feel like they will be having some harm to my property (water run-off, trash, etc.). What you can't seem to comprehend is the outlet mall becomes a public development as soon as they request a TIF or any form of public assistance. Get it?

As for this actual topic. What you again don't understand is the fact that this sidewalk and Riverside improvements are in fact being paid for by everyone in the City of Tulsa. Which means everyone gets to have a voice. See the parallel there? Good.

Now, Maple Ridge residents have every right to put in a voice on how these improvements are done, because at the end of the day this is their neighborhood. I think if Riverside is built the way it's currently planned (14' lanes) it might impact property values negatively along the road as it will become a defacto highway. It's not the sidewalk that will do it. I think at the end of the day this will lead to a better designed Riverside Drive (or I'm hopeful it will).


If you think about it, Guido is missing the irony of his comments.  The Gathering Place is technically not a public project as all funding comes from the GKFF.  Imagine that, people wanting to tell a private developer what can and can’t be done in their project which necessarily impacts public infrastructure.  Just like what will happen with the Simon project.  The homeowners don’t own the land the sidewalk would be placed on yet they want their say.  The public wants a sidewalk on public property, so they want their say as well.  


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on December 16, 2014, 09:29:57 am
Conan, GKFF and private donors are not paying for all of the Riverside Dr improvements/changes.  They applied for a TIGER grant and were denied, so the city is paying for those changes.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on December 16, 2014, 10:21:12 am
Conan, GKFF and private donors are not paying for all of the Riverside Dr improvements/changes.  They applied for a TIGER grant and were denied, so the city is paying for those changes.

They got the Tiger grants on the second application.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 16, 2014, 10:27:51 am
The homeowners don’t own the land the sidewalk would be placed on yet they want their say.

I believe the sidewalks may go on an easement but the property is still owned by the homeowners and they must maintain the area.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on December 16, 2014, 10:34:49 am
I believe the sidewalks may go on an easement but the property is still owned by the homeowners and they must maintain the area.

Are you sure the homeowners would have to maintain that area?  It makes no sense.  If the brick wall goes in, there will not even be direct access to the sidewalk from some of those homes.   It would seem reasonable that if this were built as planned, the city would own the upkeep of the strip from the wall to the street.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 16, 2014, 10:54:37 am
Are you sure the homeowners would have to maintain that area?  It makes no sense.  If the brick wall goes in, there will not even be direct access to the sidewalk from some of those homes.   It would seem reasonable that if this were built as planned, the city would own the upkeep of the strip from the wall to the street.

We (thankfully) don't have sidewalks in our 1 acre lot size neighborhood.  At our previous home (yes, in PA) we were responsible for maintenance of the sidewalk including shoveling snow and replacing broken parts of the sidewalk.  At the time, there were trees between the curb and sidewalk.  The tree roots would raise and crack the sidewalk.

http://goo.gl/maps/PFl0E
(Most of the houses have additions since we were there 40 years ago.)
 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on December 16, 2014, 11:01:06 am
We (thankfully) don't have sidewalks in our 1 acre lot size neighborhood.  At our previous home (yes, in PA) we were responsible for maintenance of the sidewalk including shoveling snow and replacing broken parts of the sidewalk.  At the time, there were trees between the curb and sidewalk.  The tree roots would raise and crack the sidewalk.

http://goo.gl/maps/PFl0E
(Most of the houses have additions since we were there 40 years ago.)
 

I understand that normally this is the case (had it Dallas when we lived there before), but in this particular case, with the city building a solid brick wall to block off the house yard from the sidewalk area, it seems illogical (not that that has ever stopped anyone...) for this to be maintained by the homeowner.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 16, 2014, 11:28:22 am
I understand that normally this is the case (had it Dallas when we lived there before), but in this particular case, with the city building a solid brick wall to block off the house yard from the sidewalk area, it seems illogical (not that that has ever stopped anyone...) for this to be maintained by the homeowner.

I am confident that the city will not maintain it.

 :(



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rdj on December 16, 2014, 11:43:24 am
They got the Tiger grants on the second application.

Ah, I thought it wasn't enough to cover.  Good to hear.  Either way, the project isn't entirely privately funded.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 16, 2014, 11:08:49 pm
The nature of both of these projects involves public infrastructure and/or public funding.  That’s why citizens at large have a say.

You keep ignoring the fact that Simon has said they will be seeking a TIF for site improvements.  Their development will, without a doubt, drive more traffic to an area which does not presently have the infrastructure to support the traffic.  Couple this with additional development between I-44 and Jenks and highway 75 will require additional lanes.

What is the true net economic impact of this development between TIFs and state-paid DOT expenditures to expand and improve 75 and access the arterials intersecting 75?  There will need to be millions and millions in improvements.

I get the "I'm a taxpayer, I therefore have a say" argument. I acknowledged it over in the TM thread. I am just not impressed with non-property owners hitching their wagon onto an issue with such a generic foundation. And be honest, are you really all that excited over a damned TIF? Sounds like contrived pretense or a way to get one's nose under the tent to me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on December 16, 2014, 11:11:03 pm


Heck, we live in a city with a metro of nearly a million and I can't even get "people walking around and parking in front of my store at all hours".... in the middle of downtown! Egads!

Come on. Business pedestrian traffic and residential neighborhood pedestrian traffic is a wee bit different. But I hear ya.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on December 16, 2014, 11:36:20 pm
And be honest, are you really all that excited over a damned TIF?

Why should I support a business development I don't want with a TIFF?  I don't use Turkey Mountain except as a reporting point to Riverside/Jones Tower.  We don't need another development there.  I've seen too much useless business development on Memorial.  What good is it?  Cutting down trees for garbage business development is too rampant around here.  Do something worthwhile and I could (but probably wouldn't) support it.
 
 :(

Did this get mixed up with the Turkey Mountain thread regarding TIFFs?

I support the sidewalk but not the Outlet Mall at Turkey Mountain.  Think whatever you want.






Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LandArchPoke on December 16, 2014, 11:47:25 pm
I get the "I'm a taxpayer, I therefore have a say" argument. I acknowledged it over in the TM thread. I am just not impressed with non-property owners hitching their wagon onto an issue with such a generic foundation. And be honest, are you really all that excited over a damned TIF? Sounds like contrived pretense or a way to get one's nose under the tent to me.

Are you familiar with the Power & Light District in KC and how the city helped subsidize it. Well guess what, they had to cut different department budgets for several years in order to make the payments on those bonds. So yes I am that excited over a TIF, because one bad investment and a city who already can barely afford to pay it's police and firemen or have paper for it's students can cause major ripple effects if in 5 years this development go belly up and Simon walks away because of many reason stated in the other thread.

It's important to do things correctly the first time, and if we just burry our heads in the sand because "private property owners can do what they please" then we are asking for financial problems later down the road. Especially for a Mayor who claims to be so fiscal conservative and he wants to wait a few years and build a sidewalk when construction and material prices have risen and shut down Riverside again that will cause delays (delays = lost productivity). Forgive me for caring about doing things correctly, and not waisting mine or your tax dollars.  ::)



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 17, 2014, 08:09:40 am
Why should I support a business development I don't want with a TIFF?  I don't use Turkey Mountain except as a reporting point to Riverside/Jones Tower.  We don't need another development there.  I've seen too much useless business development on Memorial.  What good is it?  Cutting down trees for garbage business development is too rampant around here.  Do something worthwhile and I could (but probably wouldn't) support it.
 
 :(

Did this get mixed up with the Turkey Mountain thread regarding TIFFs?

I support the sidewalk but not the Outlet Mall at Turkey Mountain.  Think whatever you want.




Careful, Red.... you are getting dangerously close to my rant view of "growth for growth's sake" and how bad it is for so many places!!



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on December 17, 2014, 08:37:46 am
I get the "I'm a taxpayer, I therefore have a say" argument. I acknowledged it over in the TM thread. I am just not impressed with non-property owners hitching their wagon onto an issue with such a generic foundation. And be honest, are you really all that excited over a damned TIF? Sounds like contrived pretense or a way to get one's nose under the tent to me.

Actually yes and no it’s not contrived.  It’s one of many reasons I think the location for the outlet mall sucks.  Let’s say the access to the mall is contorted enough for travelers on I-44 that they simply don’t bother shopping there and the majority of incoming revenue comes from people who live in Tulsa.  All we’ve managed to do then is cannibalize sales tax dollars from other collection points within the city.  In case anyone thinks “he’s only saying that because he’s a selfish mountain biker who likes to trespass on other’s property” I’ve been consistent on this position ever since the River Tax issue in 2007.  That was the same argument I made against a TIF and any sort of public funding for the proposed Branson Landing-like retail project which was to go where the concrete plant is.  That was aside from the fact we were going to pay the owner of that land $50 mil.  By comparison, at $3.2 mil, Simon is getting a smoking deal on their parcel.


Title: Sidewalk Approved
Post by: swake on January 16, 2015, 02:53:07 pm
Dewey Caves!

http://www.ktul.com/story/27871057/mayor-changes-plans-oks-riverside-sidewalk



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dioscorides on January 16, 2015, 02:54:03 pm
Tulsa World version of the story:

Mayor agrees to allow sidewalk along Riverside Drive

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/mayor-agrees-to-allow-sidewalk-along-riverside-drive/article_a824141d-2a11-535f-81a9-eea256132bf3.html

By KEVIN CANFIELD and JARREL WADE World Staff Writers

Mayor Dewey Bartlett announced this afternoon that he has agreed to the construction of a sidewalk on the east side of Riverside Drive near A Gathering Place for Tulsa park.

The sidewalk will run, as originally planned, from Veterans Park to the north boundary of A Gathering Place.

"The plan employs a combination of methods to calm traffic in a scalable manner," Bartlett said in a statement.

The highlights of the design changes include:

    A tree lawn to give at least seven feet of distance between motorists and pedestrians
    Driving lanes narrowed to 11 feet
    Traffic signal/crosswalk at the main entrance of the Gathering Place near the 2700 block of Riverside Drive
    Enhanced pedestrian crosswalks with clearly distinguishable striping and colored concrete pavement at intersections from 21st - 41st
    Eight-inch curbs to minimize the risk of vehicles jumping the curb in the direction of the sidewalk
    Extensive street striping and various types of signage to give motorists notice they are entering a park area
    And as originally proposed, the speed limit will be posted at 35 mph
    Installation of conduit during the construction phase to provide for future traffic signals, if needed

Bartlett nixed the original sidewalk proposal last year after meeting with some neighborhood residents, who objected to the project.

After a public meeting where the overwhelming majority of attendees expressed support for the sidewalk, Bartlett agreed to study the issue further.

The mayor has consistently said he he considered several factors in making his decision but that his primary objection to the sidewalk was that it would be dangerous for pedestrians using it.

City Councilor Blake Ewing, who hosted several discussions regarding the sidewalk, said he thinks the outcome is better for having gone through controversy. He also thanked Bartlett and other city officials for including him in the discussions to resolve the issue.

"You get people collaborating and sharing ideas and opinions on something like this and you end up with a better result," Ewing said. "This is how it's supposed to work. This issue actually caused people to take a bigger look at pedestrian access … it brought it to the forefront of our conversation."

Supporters of the sidewalk included a large showing from Tulsa's Young Professionals, which largely dominated group discussions on the issue.

Shagah Zakerion, TYPros executive director, said she hopes their role in the discussion and support was a sign of what's to come out of the group.

"I'm insanely proud of what we were able to accomplish," Zakerion said. "It really just will encourage us."

Zakerion said she was grateful to city officials for allowing opportunities for TYPros and hundreds of other residents to show their support.

Reconstruction of Riverside Drive is not expected to begin until at least this summer.

Phase 1 of A Gathering Place will stretch from approximately the 2700 block of Riverside Drive to 31st Street on the east side of the street and the 2700 block to 34th Street along the west side of Riverside.

The project is underway and is expected to be completed in late 2017.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: ZYX on January 16, 2015, 03:02:08 pm
In all honesty, that sidewalk looks great. Thats a great way to help with place making.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: guido911 on February 14, 2015, 04:58:10 pm
Anyone have an extra $8M laying around? Those cheapskates at KFF are playing hardball.  :)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/city-needs-million-to-fund-public-infrastructure-linked-to-gathering/article_f3ad9f3a-8ceb-5bce-ae1e-fbcb9782a321.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 14, 2015, 05:24:32 pm
Anyone have an extra $8M laying around? Those cheapskates at KFF are playing hardball.  :)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/city-needs-million-to-fund-public-infrastructure-linked-to-gathering/article_f3ad9f3a-8ceb-5bce-ae1e-fbcb9782a321.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB2GboGOuTI[/youtube]


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 25, 2015, 12:22:40 pm
Gathering Place Construction to Hamper Riverside Traffic

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/gathering-place-construction-hamper-riverside-traffic (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/gathering-place-construction-hamper-riverside-traffic)

Quote
The City of Tulsa and A Gathering Place for Tulsa announced the schedule for future road and trail closures and the emergency demolition of the pedestrian bridge over Riverside Drive near the construction of Tulsa’s new park, which will transform nearly 100 acres along the Arkansas Riverfront into a world-class park for the citizens of Tulsa. Closures will be clearly marked and alternate routes will be provided for commuters.

“We are ready to begin City infrastructure projects in coordination with the construction of the Gathering Place. The emergency demolition of the pedestrian bridge on Riverside Drive is of utmost priority. We have placed netting around the bridge as a safeguard while crews work on the nearby trails. The bridge demolition is scheduled for this weekend, in conjunction with upcoming park construction,” said Paul Zachary, City of Tulsa Director of Engineering Services.

Road and trail closures and the demolition of the pedestrian bridge will ensure safety of pedestrians and drivers while allowing construction operations to work as efficiently as possible. The road and trail closings are as follows:

February 28 at 6 a.m. until March 1 at 6 p.m.: Temporary closure of Riverside Drive between 31st Street and 21st Street, pedestrian and bike trail between 27th Street and 31st Street, and pedestrian and bike bridge over Riverside Drive due to emergency demolition

Week of March 9: River Parks Bike and Pedestrian Trail between 35th Street and 27th Street and east end of Pedestrian Bridge over the Arkansas River

Week of March 16: 31st Street between Riverside Drive and Boston Place closed to all traffic but local traffic will be accessible on 31st Street between Boston Court and Peoria Avenue

Week of July 13: Riverside Drive between 24th Street and 35th Street closed to all traffic   

Please Note: Until full closures listed above, there will be intermittent lane closures on Riverside Drive and trail closures between 24th Street and 35th Street to facilitate utility relocations and infrastructure work.

All trail and road closures will extend through the duration of the construction of the park which is expected to be completed in late 2017.

Wow...that's going to be a huge pain in my buttocks


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DowntownDan on February 25, 2015, 01:06:50 pm
Closing the trail blows because I run it all the time.  Guess I can detour.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 25, 2015, 01:15:46 pm
Closing the trail blows because I run it all the time.  Guess I can detour.

I'm just going to say it...we should asphalt the river.  Once construction's done, try to put water in it and use the detour as a boat ramp.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on February 25, 2015, 01:17:09 pm
I'm just going to say it...we should asphalt the river.  Once construction's done, try to put water in it and use the detour as a boat ramp.

Save the Planet, not Pave the Planet.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on February 25, 2015, 01:19:00 pm
Save the Planet, not Pave the Planet.

I'm inconvenienced.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 25, 2015, 02:13:10 pm
I'm inconvenienced.

Your inconvenience outrages me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on February 25, 2015, 04:11:23 pm
Wait until the sour one finds out (even though we told him last fall).


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TulsaRufnex on February 25, 2015, 04:12:03 pm
I'm just going to say it...we should asphalt the river.  Once construction's done, try to put water in it and use the detour as a boat ramp.

I ran across someone's bev nap with some awesome plans...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on February 25, 2015, 04:27:30 pm
I ran across someone's bev nap with some awesome plans...

Best plans ALWAYS start on a bevnap!!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on February 25, 2015, 05:18:01 pm
Best plans ALWAYS start on a bevnap!!

A coaster can work if it's simple and serves as a good backdrop.  :)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Red Arrow on February 25, 2015, 06:34:46 pm
I'm just going to say it...we should asphalt the river.  Once construction's done, try to put water in it and use the detour as a boat ramp.

I think concrete would be less damaging to the river.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 25, 2015, 06:39:26 pm
If use concrete, can have a public swimmin' hole....



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: ZYX on March 08, 2015, 09:21:12 pm
I didn't realize that some of the trails between 35th and 17th were going to be closed completely, which is unfortunate. Is this where the land bridge will be going? Will the trails be torn out and then replaced?

Oh well, whatever inconvenience this causes me and others will be more than made up in overall improvements to the area once this park is done.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on March 09, 2015, 07:34:50 am
I didn't realize that some of the trails between 35th and 17th were going to be closed completely, which is unfortunate. Is this where the land bridge will be going? Will the trails be torn out and then replaced?

Oh well, whatever inconvenience this causes me and others will be more than made up in overall improvements to the area once this park is done.

They are basically regrading that whole area to bring the park closer to water level.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: tgra on March 11, 2015, 08:19:43 pm
Yeah I agree it's an inconvenience but it'll make tulsa just that much better.
It was a pain when they built the BOk center. But look how much big entertainment that's brought to Tulsa.
 ;D (http://www.amazon.com/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&tag=debcuseff-20&linkId=S4FECFEHOGPNAZPM)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on March 17, 2015, 01:10:57 pm
I didn't realize that some of the trails between 35th and 17th were going to be closed completely, which is unfortunate. Is this where the land bridge will be going? Will the trails be torn out and then replaced?

Oh well, whatever inconvenience this causes me and others will be more than made up in overall improvements to the area once this park is done.
Yeah I just noticed that, they have a big fence up around the whole area the trails are torn up, and a big sign warns people to keep out. That could be why on Sunday afternoon the southern part of the trails were super  busy. To me it looks like a step backwards.. All that mess for a big over-glorified playground for kids. They can't leave well enough alone. A lot of money was spent 2 or 3 years ago putting in those new trails now they tear them up. :(


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 17, 2015, 01:12:49 pm
To me it looks like a step backwards..

Run along now.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on March 17, 2015, 01:16:26 pm
Closing the trail blows because I run it all the time.  Guess I can detour.
I run them all the time to, the southern part of the trails  are  fine, But finding parking is another issue. I end up parking on the grass at the 56th street lot. I normally run south to the Casino area and back from the 56th street lot. The traffic on the trails is getting bad, between dog walkers, regular walkers, skateboards and other runners it's crowded. I wish they would put up mileage markers on the southern part of the trail.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TeeDub on March 17, 2015, 01:22:14 pm
I wish they would put up mileage markers on the southern part of the trail.


If you knew a boy scout (church, club, etc.) that would make a great service project.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on March 17, 2015, 01:31:22 pm

If you knew a boy scout (church, club, etc.) that would make a great service project.
Indeed, some running groups spray paint  numbers on the pavement, or when they run a race on the trail they mark off the mileage distance.  For me, I'd like to see those mileage posts instead of the mile markers buried inside the pavement. With a mileage post you can see it off in the distance and you know how good (or slow)  your pace is as you approach it. It gives you good encouragement to speed up to make the post before your timer gets you. The buried mile markers you can't see ahead of time until your right over them. But that's just me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on March 17, 2015, 01:39:37 pm
or you can download a running ap to your cell phone.


IN RE: your never ending parking complaint: You can park across Riverside at Johnson Park and then cross to the trail.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: ZYX on March 17, 2015, 01:47:17 pm
Yeah I just noticed that, they have a big fence up around the whole area the trails are torn up, and a big sign warns people to keep out. That could be why on Sunday afternoon the southern part of the trails were super  busy. To me it looks like a step backwards.. All that mess for a big over-glorified playground for kids. They can't leave well enough alone. A lot of money was spent 2 or 3 years ago putting in those new trails now they tear them up. :(

It's not just a "big over-glorified playground for kids." Come on, look at the renderings and models. Whether or not you think the park is necessary is your opinion, but at least characterize it correctly.

While I agree that it is frustrating and annoying that these new trails are being closed and torn up, give it 2 years and they'll be open again, along with one of the best parks in the country. More outdoor recreation opportunities are always a plus in my book.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on March 17, 2015, 03:20:56 pm
Caution tape kids...he's just trying to get people to respond to his bucket of dumbass.

The trails getting torn up were paid for by the same organization building the park.

Don't let the bastard win.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on March 17, 2015, 10:33:06 pm
or you can download a running ap to your cell phone.

He uses a Motorola Dyna TAC

Quote
IN RE: your never ending parking complaint: You can park across Riverside at Johnson Park and then cross to the trail.


Won't work for him, he hates parking lots with handicapped spaces.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on March 18, 2015, 07:03:11 am
He uses a Motorola Dyna TAC

Is that the one with a rotary dial?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on April 09, 2015, 11:52:33 am
I don't know-- from what I read the "Gathering Place" is just more or less one big playground. I hope it'll be more than that, but looking at maps and models of the area there is not much for adults to do. I still have not found where people are supposed to park, parking is always a bear on at the Riverparks. I seen many model maps of the  Gathering Place area and nothing  lists "parking" areas.  Being  a jogger who uses the trails a lot - another trail issue is down at the casino. They have talked for years about moving the jogging trail from the front of the casino to the back of the casino  near the river to get away from the traffic & casino driveways. The progress is going on now slow & steady. That's a pain as the casino area gets more congested.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dsjeffries on April 09, 2015, 12:01:10 pm
I don't know-- from what I read the "Gathering Place" is just more or less one big playground. I hope it'll be more than that, but looking at maps and models of the area there is not much for adults to do. I still have not found where people are supposed to park, parking is always a bear on at the Riverparks. I seen many model maps of the  Gathering Place area and nothing  lists "parking" areas.  Being  a jogger who uses the trails a lot - another trail issue is down at the casino. They have talked for years about moving the jogging trail from the front of the casino to the back of the casino  near the river to get away from the traffic & casino driveways. The progress is going on now slow & steady. That's a pain as the casino area gets more congested.

Parking has been addressed on here many times, and parking is clearly displayed on maps of the project. Your perception of the park as "one big playground" has also been addressed many times on here, and it's still wrong. There are spaces for many kinds of activities and age groups.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on April 09, 2015, 02:18:47 pm
Parking has been addressed on here many times, and parking is clearly displayed on maps of the project. Your perception of the park as "one big playground" has also been addressed many times on here, and it's still wrong. There are spaces for many kinds of activities and age groups.

He's copying the FOX news model on here.  Say it enough and discount facts and he hopes he can get his minions to rise up as Fox's minions do.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on April 09, 2015, 10:43:52 pm
I don't know-- from what I read the "Gathering Place" is just more or less one big playground. I hope it'll be more than that, but looking at maps and models of the area there is not much for adults to do. I still have not found where people are supposed to park, parking is always a bear on at the Riverparks. I seen many model maps of the  Gathering Place area and nothing  lists "parking" areas.  Being  a jogger who uses the trails a lot - another trail issue is down at the casino. They have talked for years about moving the jogging trail from the front of the casino to the back of the casino  near the river to get away from the traffic & casino driveways. The progress is going on now slow & steady. That's a pain as the casino area gets more congested.

(https://i.imgur.com/AYch4Io.gif)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on April 10, 2015, 09:14:35 am
Parking has been addressed on here many times, and parking is clearly displayed on maps of the project. Your perception of the park as "one big playground" has also been addressed many times on here, and it's still wrong. There are spaces for many kinds of activities and age groups.
OK - I hear ya, I'm just saying I never seen that on a map of the Gathering Place. The Tulsa World posted a map and model of the Gathering Place, I did not see anyplace marked for parking.  Here is another map no place is for parking.>>> http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on April 10, 2015, 09:20:02 am
It still seems like a big playground to me: "Swing Hill",  "Blair Pond", "Adventure Garden Playground", "4-Seasons Garden",  "Great Lawn",  "Mist Mountain", "Skate Bowl".. and so on. Nothing much for older adults or for parking according from what is on the map. That's all I'm sayin' no biggie. I guess the map and park models are wrong. :-X


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: saintnicster on April 10, 2015, 09:48:46 am
It still seems like a big playground to me: "Swing Hill",  "Blair Pond", "Adventure Garden Playground", "4-Seasons Garden",  "Great Lawn",  "Mist Mountain", "Skate Bowl".. and so on. Nothing much for older adults or for parking according from what is on the map. That's all I'm sayin' no biggie. I guess the map and park models are wrong. :-X
original map
(http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/slide31.jpg)

Parking that I see.  I'm assuming that the two big parking spots in the top left corner are probably connected.
(http://i.imgur.com/pGgiWn2.jpg)


Also, the "adult" sounding names that you failed to mention - "Museum Hill," "Boathouse," "Sports Courts", "Lodge". 
Blair Pond, Four Seasons Garden and Sky Garden don't sound very child-like, but that's just me. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Noodlez on April 10, 2015, 09:53:21 am
OK - I hear ya, I'm just saying I never seen that on a map of the Gathering Place. The Tulsa World posted a map and model of the Gathering Place, I did not see anyplace marked for parking.  Here is another map no place is for parking.>>> http://agatheringplacefortulsa.com/

And yet a normal person looks at that map and see about 6 parking lots.  It's Tulsa, you should be familiar with what a parking lot looks like and not need it labeled.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 10, 2015, 10:26:54 am
And yet a normal person looks at that map and see about 6 parking lots.  It's Tulsa, you should be familiar with what a parking lot looks like and not need it labeled.

Remember, you're dealing with someone who thinks these signs are not needed in parking lots for the parks.......

(http://www.usa-traffic-signs.com/v/vspfiles/photos/r7-8ra5-2.gif)(http://www.signsdirect.com/images/VAN-Accessible-TEXAS-Sign.GIF)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on April 10, 2015, 12:11:54 pm
Because they are not runners no doubt. Or just too damn old.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on April 13, 2015, 09:19:41 am
Remember, you're dealing with someone who thinks these signs are not needed in parking lots for the parks.......

(http://www.usa-traffic-signs.com/v/vspfiles/photos/r7-8ra5-2.gif)(http://www.signsdirect.com/images/VAN-Accessible-TEXAS-Sign.GIF)
I just questioned why a jogging trail user would need handicapped parking- that's all no biggie. It makes no sense to me.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on April 13, 2015, 09:24:19 am
As for the "Gathering Place" Map- if those are parking spaces that are circled in red- that's fine but it is not labeled as for parking. It looks more like a roadway thru the park. I noticed They labeled everything in the park map  but not the places to park... Parking is a bear as it is all around Riverparks. I hope your correct and those are parking spaces.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: saintnicster on April 13, 2015, 09:42:21 am
As for the "Gathering Place" Map- if those are parking spaces that are circled in red- that's fine but it is not labeled as for parking. It looks more like a roadway thru the park. I noticed They labeled everything in the park map  but not the places to park... Parking is a bear as it is all around Riverparks. I hope your correct and those are parking spaces.

Ever been to Woodward Park and park in that gigantic, labeled parking lot?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on April 13, 2015, 09:57:12 am
Like jogging paths being used for walking, wheelchairs, strollers, skaters or unicycles....it just doesn't make sense to him.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on April 13, 2015, 10:56:11 am
Hey, slightly off topic but not too far, and and honest question.  When the riverside bike/jogging paths split, which side are skateboarders supposed to use?  Of all the different modes of transportation, those are the most problematic for me.  Too fast for the jogging side, and too slow (way too slow) for the bike lanes.  Is there an official position?  Just curious.   


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on April 13, 2015, 10:59:09 am
Hey, slightly off topic but not too far, and and honest question.  When the riverside bike/jogging paths split, which side are skateboarders supposed to use?  Of all the different modes of transportation, those are the most problematic for me.  Too fast for the jogging side, and too slow (way too slow) for the bike lanes.  Is there an official position?  Just curious.   

I believe that the bike path is actually the "wheeled" path. Skates, skateboards, bicycles, unicycles, etc. However, if you are walking with the skateboard that's problematic!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on April 13, 2015, 02:38:01 pm
Hey, slightly off topic but not too far, and and honest question.  When the riverside bike/jogging paths split, which side are skateboarders supposed to use?  Of all the different modes of transportation, those are the most problematic for me.  Too fast for the jogging side, and too slow (way too slow) for the bike lanes.  Is there an official position?  Just curious.   

I believe the wheeled path and you are right, they do cause issues with cyclists.  Most are oblivious to their surroundings and I know of more than one friend who has had a skateboard, sans rider, shoot out in front of their bike and end up taking a nasty spill as a result.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on April 13, 2015, 09:01:38 pm
I believe the wheeled path and you are right, they do cause issues with cyclists.  Most are oblivious to their surroundings and I know of more than one friend who has had a skateboard, sans rider, shoot out in front of their bike and end up taking a nasty spill as a result.

I had a similar issue many years agoon Riverside with a woman walking her dog across the path. My bicycle stops faster than I do, apparently.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 13, 2015, 10:13:00 pm

....




Be nice - why does everyone make fun of this lady?  She is probably a very nice person....

Or not.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on April 14, 2015, 11:02:48 am
At RiverSide Trails there is a  sign just north of  the 41st street parking area posted on a light pole and it has an arrow that points to the bike trail for skateboards & rollerblades, and another arrow that points to the jogging trail for walkers & runners- but that is the only sign I seen that tells ya  which side to use. I like the double trail system it keeps the bikes out of the way of runners. In Omaha, NE on the Keystone trail many cyclists think they own that trail and don't like joggers using it,  sometime rude cyclists fly by runners without saying "Passing on your left" or anything. The Keystone Trail in Omaha is long &  flat it runs for 23 miles with no street crossings and the cyclists like to race on it. As for the handicapped sign  issue  it does not make sense to me, if your going to use the trail why would it matter if you park up close to it or clear across the lot--Because  that extra 30 feet of distance means nothing if your going to be on the trail anyhow. It could be federal regulation since Omaha trail heads also have handicapped parking at the trail access points. >>> http://omaha.net/places/keystone-trail


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on April 14, 2015, 11:15:44 am
Tulsa has some nice trails but many of them  like the  the SandSprings Trail, Mingo, and Turnpike trail  have street crossings. It would be great if Tulsa could  build a trail system with no street crossings like other cities have.. Omaha, Nebraska has a outstanding trail system  >>http://www.traillink.com/trail/keystone-trail.aspx  >>>> Omaha is a runners city  >>>>  http://www.omahatrails.com


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on April 14, 2015, 11:17:34 am
It would be great if Tulsa could  build a trail system with no street crossings like other cities have..

Get out there and do something about it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 14, 2015, 11:24:48 am
At RiverSide Trails there is a  sign just north of  the 41st street parking area posted on a light pole and it has an arrow that points to the bike trail for skateboards & rollerblades, and another arrow that points to the jogging trail for walkers & runners- but that is the only sign I seen that tells ya  which side to use. I like the double trail system it keeps the bikes out of the way of runners. In Omaha, NE on the Keystone trail many cyclists think they own that trail and don't like joggers using it,  sometime rude cyclists fly by runners without saying "Passing on your left" or anything. The Keystone Trail in Omaha is long &  flat it runs for 23 miles with no street crossings and the cyclists like to race on it. As for the handicapped sign  issue  it does not make sense to me, if your going to use the trail why would it matter if you park up close to it or clear across the lot--Because  that extra 30 feet of distance means nothing if your going to be on the trail anyhow. It could be federal regulation since Omaha trail heads also have handicapped parking at the trail access points. >>> http://omaha.net/places/keystone-trail

Thu, Apr 16 Total time: 3hr 53min
Depart
9:45 AM
Tulsa, OK , United States
Tulsa International Airport (TUL)
Stop 1
10:57 AM
Dallas, TX , United States
Dallas-Fort Worth Airport (DFW)  Terminal B
Change of planes. Time between flights: 0hr 52min
Flight 5806 Operated by MESA AIRLINES AS AMERICAN EAGLE

US Airways 5806
Economy
CRJ 900
1hr 12min
Seat map
Depart
11:49 AM
Dallas, TX , United States
Dallas-Fort Worth Airport (DFW)
Arrive
1:38 PM
Omaha, NE , United States
Eppley Airfield (OMA)
Flight 1286 Operated by American Airlines

US Airways 1286
Economy
Boeing Douglas MD-80
1hr 49min
Seat map


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AquaMan on April 14, 2015, 11:56:43 am
Cute. Love the 918 or move back to the cornfields!

Sauer, Omaha and Oklahoma didn't collude with each other. It is a federal regulation. Why is it so hard to believe that people in wheelchairs may not be visiting the local park to run? The paths are access to picnic areas, a restaurant, a place for their children to play etc. Your world is so small.....


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on April 14, 2015, 12:10:08 pm
Cute. Love the 918 or move back to the cornfields!

Sauer, Omaha and Oklahoma didn't collude with each other. It is a federal regulation. Why is it so hard to believe that people in wheelchairs may not be visiting the local park to run? The paths are access to picnic areas, a restaurant, a place for their children to play etc. Your world is so small.....

If my mom was still alive I'm pretty sure she could beat Cabbage's backside.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on April 18, 2015, 01:11:11 pm
Cute. Love the 918 or move back to the cornfields!

Sauer, Omaha and Oklahoma didn't collude with each other. It is a federal regulation. Why is it so hard to believe that people in wheelchairs may not be visiting the local park to run? The paths are access to picnic areas, a restaurant, a place for their children to play etc. Your world is so small.....
As I said before, I understand everyone wants to use the jogging trails, but if your using the trails and your handicapped it makes no sense -at least to me- that you need to park up front next to the trail, if your using the trail parking 30 feet away won't make a hill of beans difference, when your on the trail you'll be walking or using a wheel chair for a great distance anyhow, how up front parking will help anyone is beyond me, there is also a huge problem with handicapped parking abuse, other healthy  people using grandmas car with the handicapped card  so they can park up close in shopping malls and so on but that's another issue.. I have no problems with playgrounds either- it's just that how many more  playgrounds do we really need? There already is a playground at 41st & RiverSide Drive, now they want to build a super playground a mile north of that. There is a playground at 101st & Riverside Drive too.  I'd like to see places for teens, young adults and older adults to go to. I'd like to see something where all ages can go. The Gathering Place seems to focus on just a big Playground more than anything else or any other activity- at least from what I read about it and what was displayed about it on TV, it's basically a place for kids.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on April 18, 2015, 04:09:51 pm
As I said before, I understand everyone wants to use the jogging trails, but if your using the trails and your handicapped it makes no sense -at least to me- that you need to park up front next to the trail, if your using the trail parking 30 feet away won't make a hill of beans difference, when your on the trail you'll be walking or using a wheel chair for a great distance anyhow, how up front parking will help anyone is beyond me, there is also a huge problem with handicapped parking abuse, other healthy  people using grandmas car with the handicapped card  so they can park up close in shopping malls and so on but that's another issue.. I have no problems with playgrounds either- it's just that how many more  playgrounds do we really need? There already is a playground at 41st & RiverSide Drive, now they want to build a super playground a mile north of that. There is a playground at 101st & Riverside Drive too.  I'd like to see places for teens, young adults and older adults to go to. I'd like to see something where all ages can go. The Gathering Place seems to focus on just a big Playground more than anything else or any other activity- at least from what I read about it and what was displayed about it on TV, it's basically a place for kids.

I don't go to any of the other playgrounds, but I will go to this park.  Looks like it is going to be a great place to take a stroll or rollerblade with lots to see. :-)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BuiltRight on June 18, 2015, 08:09:49 am
Video about what's currently going on behind the big green wall.

http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/behind-the-scenes-look-at-construction-work-for-a-gathering-place (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/behind-the-scenes-look-at-construction-work-for-a-gathering-place)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: carltonplace on July 13, 2015, 08:24:18 am
Riverside drive is now closed. You have been forewarned for two years that this would happen.

Queue pointless ranting


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on July 13, 2015, 08:58:15 am
Riverside drive is now closed. You have been forewarned for two years that this would happen.

Queue pointless ranting

Yep, much like the change in refuse service...I still hear people bitching about that.  Three years after the fact.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 13, 2015, 09:31:28 am
Riverside drive is now closed. You have been forewarned for two years that this would happen.

Queue pointless ranting

Yeah, but once it’s done, there won’t be anything there for people to do, parking’s gonna be a nightmare, and we won’t have money to maintain it.  I dunno about how this might affect Tulsa Tuff, but I’m not a cyclist, I’m just a runner.  Just not what I think T-Towne needs.  I think we just need mile markers on the trail so I don’t have to use one of those new-fangled computers.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on July 13, 2015, 10:13:09 am
Yeah, but once it’s done, there won’t be anything there for people to do, parking’s gonna be a nightmare, and we won’t have money to maintain it.  I dunno about how this might affect Tulsa Tuff, but I’m not a cyclist, I’m just a runner.  Just not what I think T-Towne needs.  I think we just need mile markers on the trail so I don’t have to use one of those new-fangled computers.



**snort**  Good thing I was not drinking anything.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on July 13, 2015, 11:52:07 am
Yeah, but once it’s done, there won’t be anything there for people to do, parking’s gonna be a nightmare, and we won’t have money to maintain it.  I dunno about how this might affect Tulsa Tuff, but I’m not a cyclist, I’m just a runner.  Just not what I think T-Towne needs.  I think we just need mile markers on the trail so I don’t have to use one of those new-fangled computers.

+2,  just for the double-take...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sauerkraut on July 13, 2015, 12:55:01 pm
RiverSide Drive is closed for two years, the jogging trail is closed too, it'll be a mess and a long two years. IMO I think this project is a mistake, it's just  too big, they bit off more than they could chew. There is also on going construction going on at the west park too. I think the $350 million could have been spent in better ways or spread out. But that's just me and my opinion.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Breadburner on July 13, 2015, 01:03:12 pm
The BOK Center sucks and is going to be a failure.....!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on July 13, 2015, 01:05:43 pm
The BOK Center sucks and is going to be a failure.....!!!!!!!!!

It would be fun to get Michael Bates on here to debate the arena and ballpark.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 14, 2015, 07:26:37 am
RiverSide Drive is closed for two years, the jogging trail is closed too, it'll be a mess and a long two years. IMO I think this project is a mistake, it's just  too big, they bit off more than they could chew. There is also on going construction going on at the west park too. I think the $350 million could have been spent in better ways or spread out. But that's just me and my opinion.

Construction of anything takes time. Double so when it involves significant earth moving, infrastructure, and landscaping. There is just no getting around that.

Explain "too big...they bit off more than they could chew." The contractors in this project bit off exactly as much as they could chew, or would assign more resources. Thus far, everything is going perfectly to plan. Your statement would make sense if things werent going to plan, but since they are - I'm just confused.

If this was a 100% publicly funded project, I would agree with you that a $350mil park probably isn't the best investment. But it isn't.

I use the trails on a very regular basis. I drive on the part of the road that is closed. I don't live close enough to walk when the new park is open. But I'm damn glad we are getting it.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Ibanez on July 14, 2015, 07:55:17 am
I logged into Facebook for the first time in months last night, big mistake on my part.

There were three things dominating my "news feed" there.

1. Photos of The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia

2. Photos of William Tecumseh Sherman captioned "Don't make me come down there again."

3. People saying how much they hate that Riverside Drive is closed for "the stupid Gathering Place." With various reasons as to why:

 - It is a stupid name for a park anyway
 - Nobody will go there because they will chase all the "normal" people away so that only the "uppity" or "rich" can use it.
 - Driving in Tulsa is already "the worst" and this just makes it worse....or "worser" as one person said.
 - We have too many parks already that nobody uses except for drug dealers
 - This is more of an Owasso or Broken Arrow thing. Nobody wants to hang out in downtown Tulsa with all the homeless - This one was my favorite.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 14, 2015, 08:40:33 am
I logged into Facebook for the first time in months last night, big mistake on my part.

There were three things dominating my "news feed" there.

1. Photos of The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia

2. Photos of William Tecumseh Sherman captioned "Don't make me come down there again."

3. People saying how much they hate that Riverside Drive is closed for "the stupid Gathering Place." With various reasons as to why:

 - It is a stupid name for a park anyway
 - Nobody will go there because they will chase all the "normal" people away so that only the "uppity" or "rich" can use it.
 - Driving in Tulsa is already "the worst" and this just makes it worse....or "worser" as one person said.
 - We have too many parks already that nobody uses except for drug dealers
 - This is more of an Owasso or Broken Arrow thing. Nobody wants to hang out in downtown Tulsa with all the homeless - This one was my favorite.


Teh stoopidz.  They is hard to fix.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on July 14, 2015, 09:03:38 am
I logged into Facebook for the first time in months last night, big mistake on my part.

There were three things dominating my "news feed" there.

1. Photos of The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia

2. Photos of William Tecumseh Sherman captioned "Don't make me come down there again."

3. People saying how much they hate that Riverside Drive is closed for "the stupid Gathering Place." With various reasons as to why:

 - It is a stupid name for a park anyway
 - Nobody will go there because they will chase all the "normal" people away so that only the "uppity" or "rich" can use it.
 - Driving in Tulsa is already "the worst" and this just makes it worse....or "worser" as one person said.
 - We have too many parks already that nobody uses except for drug dealers
 - This is more of an Owasso or Broken Arrow thing. Nobody wants to hang out in downtown Tulsa with all the homeless - This one was my favorite.


I crack up when people complain about driving in Tulsa.  If they're talking about the sheer ratio of potholes to lane miles, then I sympathize because I'm pretty sure we lead in that department.  However, if they're complaining about traffic, have them live in Houston or Dallas or SoCal for a month, then come back here.  That complaining will likely stop.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Markk on July 14, 2015, 09:04:10 am
Saw speed traps set up this morning on Peoria and got to thinking that I remembered something about a plan to resurface/redo the BA just SE of downtown, where some of the potholes are deep and the size of trash can lids.  I believe the work was to start up sometime later this summer.  Anyone else know when the work is to begin?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 14, 2015, 09:25:12 am
Saw speed traps set up this morning on Peoria and got to thinking that I remembered something about a plan to resurface/redo the BA just SE of downtown, where some of the potholes are deep and the size of trash can lids.  I believe the work was to start up sometime later this summer.  Anyone else know when the work is to begin?

Off topic, but great question. I grew up in Iowa. It was not uncommon to take gravel roads to fishing lakes, friends houses, whatever. I do not recall ever being on a publicly maintained gravel road in Iowa that was as bad as that stretch of the BA.  In the last couple of months I've driven north into Canada and south down to Austin - and all sorts of points in between (not just interstate driving); I never experienced roads that bad anywhere else. Complaining about roads in Tulsa is cliche, but damn.

This is what happens when you "save money" by cutting taxes and ignoring infrastructure.

/bad cannon_fodder, get back on topic!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Markk on July 14, 2015, 09:33:57 am
since the gripe of the day seems to be traffic problems and alternate routes caused by Riverside closing due to Gathering Place construction, I maintain that throwing out something that would cause even worse traffic problems into downtown is (somewhat) related.

Nevertheless, I'll try and do better in the future.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 14, 2015, 12:35:54 pm
I’ll continue with drift since it is semi sort-of related to The Gathering Place.  With all the various closures, if the work were still ongoing on I-44 I could claim to my boss I’m landlocked (gridlocked) away from my office in west Tulsa and need to work from home for the foreseeable future.  ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 14, 2015, 12:40:39 pm
For the past two days I've driven new routes.

Coming in, I've taken 75 which has worked out surprisingly well.

Leaving last night, I took Harvard...not bad but what the heck is up with 51st and Harvard area?  It's been under construction for something like 6 years now (it seems to me).

Anyway, my travel time hasn't suffered too much so far but time will tell.  Two days is not two years.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AngieB on July 14, 2015, 12:43:37 pm
This is an instance when those of us living on the Westside have a distinct advantage (we'll take any and all we can get). My drive into and out of downtown is not affected.  ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 14, 2015, 01:06:14 pm
For the past two days I've driven new routes.

Coming in, I've taken 75 which has worked out surprisingly well.

Leaving last night, I took Harvard...not bad but what the heck is up with 51st and Harvard area?  It's been under construction for something like 6 years now (it seems to me).

Anyway, my travel time hasn't suffered too much so far but time will tell.  Two days is not two years.

Between 244 & 44 construction, I think it’s been nearly 6 years of orange barrels no matter which direction I went until they opened the new 244/75 north bridge over the Arkansas River.  The stealthy way they are laying the new asphalt at off-peak hours along 75 north of 41st St. has been really nice.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 14, 2015, 01:12:09 pm
This is an instance when those of us living on the Westside have a distinct advantage (we'll take any and all we can get). My drive into and out of downtown is not affected.  ;D

Well, I can look at that two ways.  

You are never bothered by construction.  My maze is constantly shifted by orange barrels et al.

I have inconveniences where you do not.

I see improvements though.

Southside burnin' Westside!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AngieB on July 15, 2015, 08:17:33 am
Well, I can look at that two ways.  

You are never bothered by construction.  My maze is constantly shifted by orange barrels et al.

I have inconveniences where you do not.

I see improvements though.

Southside burnin' Westside!

No need to dis the Westside.  :-\


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 15, 2015, 08:37:37 am
No need to dis the Westside.  :-\

Eh, I live in Oklahoma...it's all I've got.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 15, 2015, 08:58:22 am
Off topic, but great question. I grew up in Iowa. It was not uncommon to take gravel roads to fishing lakes, friends houses, whatever. I do not recall ever being on a publicly maintained gravel road in Iowa that was as bad as that stretch of the BA.  In the last couple of months I've driven north into Canada and south down to Austin - and all sorts of points in between (not just interstate driving); I never experienced roads that bad anywhere else. Complaining about roads in Tulsa is cliche, but damn.

This is what happens when you "save money" by cutting taxes and ignoring infrastructure.

/bad cannon_fodder, get back on topic!


It's related to the topic...goes to infrastructure, which the Gathering thing is supposed to be...

Around here it is most likely to be one of those Ron Popeil Showtime rotisserie...set it and forget it!!  Will be built and then NOT properly maintained for decades, at which time the builders, movers and shakers in town will cook up another scheme to line their pockets and blather about anything/everything from jobs to moving ahead for the future.  It's what we do.

And Iowa....gotta love all that corn and soybeans!!

Was in Madison and Janesville WI a couple weeks ago - Madison would be a great example for out "leaders" to use as reference.  Very nice place, and much more applicable than Portland.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 15, 2015, 11:25:46 am

Around here it is most likely to be one of those Ron Popeil Showtime rotisserie...set it and forget it!!  Will be built and then NOT properly maintained for decades, at which time the builders, movers and shakers in town will cook up another scheme to line their pockets and blather about anything/everything from jobs to moving ahead for the future.  It's what we do.


If you're talking about the park, from what I understand, you are incorrect...at least about the Gathering Place.

On another tangent, can the park be called "The Gathering"?  Christopher Lambert and Clancy Brown could do the grand opening.

Anyone know any sword play re-enactment folk?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on July 15, 2015, 11:28:07 am
Around here it is most likely to be one of those Ron Popeil Showtime rotisserie...set it and forget it!!  Will be built and then NOT properly maintained for decades, at which time the builders, movers and shakers in town will cook up another scheme to line their pockets and blather about anything/everything from jobs to moving ahead for the future.  It's what we do.

Yep, it really sucks rotten eggs that a local philanthropist and businesses are investing $350 million in a world-class one of a kind park that will benefit Tulsans for generations to come.  

Curmudgeons are a wearisome bunch.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on July 15, 2015, 11:44:32 am

It's related to the topic...goes to infrastructure, which the Gathering thing is supposed to be...

Around here it is most likely to be one of those Ron Popeil Showtime rotisserie...set it and forget it!!  Will be built and then NOT properly maintained for decades, at which time the builders, movers and shakers in town will cook up another scheme to line their pockets and blather about anything/everything from jobs to moving ahead for the future.  It's what we do.

And Iowa....gotta love all that corn and soybeans!!

Was in Madison and Janesville WI a couple weeks ago - Madison would be a great example for out "leaders" to use as reference.  Very nice place, and much more applicable than Portland.



The $350 million includes an endowment for the park and Guthrie Green, they will be managed and programmed together by a foundation and not the city or county.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on July 15, 2015, 11:45:17 am
If you're talking about the park, from what I understand, you are incorrect...at least about the Gathering Place.

On another tangent, can the park be called "The Gathering"?  Christopher Lambert and Clancy Brown could do the grand opening.

Anyone know any sword play re-enactment folk?

The Castle of Muskogee has tons of them.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 15, 2015, 11:46:35 am
The Castle of Muskogee has tons of them.

We'd need Scottish and Russian accents


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 15, 2015, 12:39:49 pm
If you're talking about the park, from what I understand, you are incorrect...at least about the Gathering Place.

On another tangent, can the park be called "The Gathering"?  Christopher Lambert and Clancy Brown could do the grand opening.

Anyone know any sword play re-enactment folk?


Get hold of the local SCA people....Society for Creative Anachronism.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AngieB on July 15, 2015, 01:05:05 pm
Eh, I live in Oklahoma...it's all I've got.

Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.  :-\


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 15, 2015, 01:17:41 pm
Yep, it really sucks rotten eggs that a local philanthropist and businesses are investing $350 million in a world-class one of a kind park that will benefit Tulsans for generations to come.  

Curmudgeons are a wearisome bunch.


Stealing directly from Townsend....

"Eh, I live in Oklahoma...it's all I've got."


You would begrudge us curmudgeons our one little crumb of excitement in life..??  Well, except for breadhead 'baiting'.  What a mean spirited attitude....lol...





Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 15, 2015, 01:28:24 pm
Well, I can look at that two ways.  

You are never bothered by construction.  My maze is constantly shifted by orange barrels et al.

I have inconveniences where you do not.

I see improvements though.

Southside burnin' Westside!



As for inconveniences, whenever I get my fill of Oklahoma orange barrels, I make a pilgrimage to West Memphis.  That gawd awful mess has been going on literally since 1979 - the second time I ever drove through there (1972 being first) - and has continued unabated with NO interruptions ever since.  How would I know that part of it?  Well, I drive through there at least once every year (for the last 37) and sometimes 6 or 7 or more times.  I submit there has never been a bigger graft/corruption event in the entire history of the interstate system!  Ever!

Going through there always 'resets' the BS meter with respect to Oklahoma boondoggles, and so no matter how bad it gets here, I can always console myself and family with the thought, "at least we aren't west Memphis!"  In the last few years, we have started turning left at Conway and taking 64 all the way to Marion.  Yeah, ya gotta go through small towns and the average speed is little slower - not that much, though.  But it always is more scenic, takes less time, and less wear and tear on the car and the psyche.  And with the I-40 work east of Little Rock in recent years, save a lot of time!

However, that does NOT mean we should stop trying to make OK better....



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on July 15, 2015, 02:57:02 pm
Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.  :-\

Oh Please...my area is closest to Durant...I'm embarrassed enough of that.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on July 15, 2015, 07:58:39 pm

 - Nobody will go there because they will chase all the "normal" people away so that only the "uppity" or "rich" can use it.

Ironically the uppity and rich are the ones complaining about all the undesirables coming to their area of town.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on July 15, 2015, 09:18:18 pm
Ironically the uppity and rich are the ones complaining about all the undesirables coming to their area of town.

Now now, the rest of you all shouldn't feel bad about not being wanted in that area.  :P


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TurismoDreamin on July 27, 2015, 04:46:58 pm
Just wanted to share with you all. I made a video of the current progress with my quad. Available in 4k HD as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3-znDSQxfI


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Hoss on July 27, 2015, 04:57:19 pm
Just wanted to share with you all. I made a video of the current progress with my quad. Available in 4k HD as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3-znDSQxfI

What kind of quad you using?  RTF?  You build it?  Nice video...


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on July 27, 2015, 05:00:08 pm
Just wanted to share with you all. I made a video of the current progress with my quad. Available in 4k HD as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3-znDSQxfI


Nice!  Very nice....




Here was a "sales pitch" that came up next to your video... People are said in this one to "expect" water when they think Arkansas River...how could they have gotten that idea if they have lived here more than about 5 minutes?  Still don't think it's worth hundreds of millions considering how many other needs are going lacking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxRS7ZjHDZo



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TurismoDreamin on July 27, 2015, 08:39:46 pm
Thanks guys. I'm using a DJI Phantom 3 Pro, shot in 4k, and post using FCPX.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on July 27, 2015, 10:28:28 pm
Just wanted to share with you all. I made a video of the current progress with my quad. Available in 4k HD as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3-znDSQxfI

There's a thread for that:   http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20778.0


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AdamsHall on July 28, 2015, 09:10:25 am
Just wanted to share with you all. I made a video of the current progress with my quad. Available in 4k HD as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3-znDSQxfI

Very nice.  Please do share updates in the future as that is a really cool perspective.  I am particularly interested to see how they construct/grade for the land bridges.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on July 28, 2015, 10:02:25 am
I’d love to see monthly updates, then do a time-lapse edit when it’s done.  Very cool!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on August 15, 2015, 04:11:59 pm
Manhattan, which was selected to manage the park’s construction in May 2014, is being yanked off the project for Crossland Construction Co. for the remainder of the project, according to a statement released Saturday morning by the George Kaiser Family Foundation.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/a-gathering-place-to-switch-construction-managers-crossland-to-replace/article_2da96d45-318e-594a-9d39-a3893567b737.html


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: saintnicster on August 16, 2015, 09:46:51 pm
Manhattan, which was selected to manage the park’s construction in May 2014, is being yanked off the project for Crossland Construction Co. for the remainder of the project, according to a statement released Saturday morning by the George Kaiser Family Foundation.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/a-gathering-place-to-switch-construction-managers-crossland-to-replace/article_2da96d45-318e-594a-9d39-a3893567b737.html

Manhattan construction - always the second-lowest bidder, taking 3 times as long as any other company.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on August 16, 2015, 10:04:56 pm
The Tulsa World comments section predicably is melting down again.

Who are all those idiots?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on August 17, 2015, 09:25:25 am
Manhattan construction - always the second-lowest bidder, taking 3 times as long as any other company.

Its not realistic to think this will be a seamless transition.  Expect a lot of timeframe shuffling, and some things cut back.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on August 17, 2015, 08:36:50 pm
Its not realistic to think this will be a seamless transition.  Expect a lot of timeframe shuffling, and some things cut back.

Same guys driving the tractors.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DolfanBob on September 11, 2015, 08:08:20 am
I'm not sure if I missed the info on here. But what's the reason Manhattan is out and Crossland is in? I was told that yesterday buy a person I work with. I must have missed it on the news also.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on September 11, 2015, 11:57:12 am
I'm not sure if I missed the info on here. But what's the reason Manhattan is out and Crossland is in? I was told that yesterday buy a person I work with. I must have missed it on the news also.

I believe it was disagreement over the requested timeline.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on October 09, 2015, 11:51:15 am
Children's Museum Gets Kaiser Grant

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/childrens-museum-gets-kaiser-grant (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/childrens-museum-gets-kaiser-grant)

Quote
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — The George Kaiser Family Foundation is giving $10 million in land for the construction of a permanent children's museum in Tulsa.

The Tulsa World reports officials were set to announce the foundation's pledge Thursday. The museum would be located in A Gathering Place for Tulsa, a $350 million park that's being built with help from dozens of private and corporate donors.

Tulsa Children's Museum Discovery Lab was opened in an unoccupied community center in 2013. It was meant as a temporary location until the development of a permanent museum.

The first phase of the park is scheduled to finish in late 2017. Plans call for opening the museum in 2020, with costs of building the facility and exhibits estimated at $29 million.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Nik on October 16, 2015, 09:36:07 am
Children's Museum Gets Kaiser Grant

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/childrens-museum-gets-kaiser-grant (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/childrens-museum-gets-kaiser-grant)


This is great. I am so jealous of the Children's Museum in OKC.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on October 16, 2015, 05:36:43 pm
This is great. I am so jealous of the Children's Museum in OKC.

The science center (former omniplex?)

I took my kids there and like 20% of the hands-on exhibits were broken, and they were pretty confused about the murder mystery exhibit. They're also getting way more a-la-carte with their prices.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on October 16, 2015, 11:11:27 pm
This is great. I am so jealous of the Children's Museum in OKC.

I went there once.  Admit it was a long time ago so may have changed, but first thing I remember was how desolate and depressing the area around it was. Also the interior felt very drab and "warehouse/institutional".  Wasn't anything to be jealous of imho.  I hope ours is better.   


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on October 18, 2015, 07:13:36 pm
Anyone remember the Harmon Science Center at 41st & Hudson?  It was a pretty decent children's/science museum.  There hasn't been anything like it on the same scale in Tulsa since it closed in the late 90's.  Something like it or better and integrated into the park (which it sounds like it will be) will be a nice addition.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BuiltRight on November 06, 2015, 08:48:20 am
They now have construction camera up at The Gathering Place, so you can check on the progress to your hearts desire.

http://68.71.138.16:8080/Default.aspx?customerID=27 (http://68.71.138.16:8080/Default.aspx?customerID=27)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on January 21, 2016, 12:14:15 am
This will be a really nice aspect of the overall project: a new 45,000 SF Children's Museum.  I'll be interested to see the design renderings.

http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/tulsa-children-s-museum-hires-local-firm-to-design-new/article_2a2c305f-23d9-53fa-addf-3be892d232b2.html?mode=jqm (http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/gatheringplace/tulsa-children-s-museum-hires-local-firm-to-design-new/article_2a2c305f-23d9-53fa-addf-3be892d232b2.html?mode=jqm)

From another article:
The Gathering Place’s Four Seasons Garden will be named after the Richard A. Williford family. The garden, which will feature stacked sandstone, trees and ample seating, will connect the main part of the park with 31st Street and the future children’s museum, Stava said.

“It’s probably one of the most gorgeous walks in the park,” he said. “It’s going to be like nothing anyone has ever seen.”


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: erfalf on January 21, 2016, 08:20:04 am
Would this Children's Museum be a replacement for or in addition to the current facility in Owen Park?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: swake on January 21, 2016, 08:38:20 am
Would this Children's Museum be a replacement for or in addition to the current facility in Owen Park?

I believe it is the intended permanent and purpose built location for the Children's Museum in Owen Park. This has been planned for some time.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: erfalf on January 22, 2016, 02:43:08 pm
I believe it is the intended permanent and purpose built location for the Children's Museum in Owen Park. This has been planned for some time.

Cool. If you haven't been, the facility in Owen Park is pretty neat. Especially if you have kids that need to burn off a little steam.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on October 16, 2016, 07:13:49 pm
Does anyone know if there will be a path along Crow Creek included in this phase or is that a future project along with most of what's planned for south of 31st?  A river trail/Gathering Place connection to Brookside along the creek would be well-utilized.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: buffalodan on October 18, 2016, 09:26:37 am
Does anyone know if there will be a path along Crow Creek included in this phase or is that a future project along with most of what's planned for south of 31st?  A river trail/Gathering Place connection to Brookside along the creek would be well-utilized.

I think a path from the park to peoria is in the works for a future phase. There will be sidewalks along 31st street and 33rd place is an okay road to walk down. I don't think a crow creek path would go further east than peoria however. I think the city was looking at a trail to connect to zink park, but that is very expensive/political R/W when there is a street just right there.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on October 18, 2016, 10:56:07 am
I think a path from the park to peoria is in the works for a future phase. There will be sidewalks along 31st street and 33rd place is an okay road to walk down. I don't think a crow creek path would go further east than peoria however. I think the city was looking at a trail to connect to zink park, but that is very expensive/political R/W when there is a street just right there.

Peoria would be fine especially if it could go under the bridge so you could connect to it easily on both sides.  I could see people visiting the park and children's museum then walking down the path to Brookside, or renting a bike.  Surely there will be a place to rent bikes in the park?  Even it's just one of those stations with another one on Peoria so you could drop off the bike if you weren't going back to the park/river.

The connection to Zink Park would be great to have eventually.  If you've never been down by the creek in Zink Park it's a pretty neat area with the short bluffs on the east side and all of the rock steps down to the water.  Extending it further north past 31st would be even more difficult since it runs through so much private property and Philbrook.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: LeGenDz on December 23, 2016, 10:32:23 pm
Look who decided to take a page out of Tulsa's book. (same architect also)

Quote
Dallas is getting a $600 million urban park that's more than 11 times as large as Central Park

Dallas, Texas, is getting a lot greener.

The city is building a 10,000-acre nature district — nearly 12 times as large as Manhattan's Central Park — along the Trinity River. Featuring plenty of walkways, sports fields, trees, and other flora, the site will become the largest urban park in America.

In late October, Annette Simmons, the widow of the billionaire Harold Simmons, donated $50 million toward 285 acres of the ongoing project. Set to be complete by 2021 and costing $250 million, this portion will be called the Harold Simmons Park. Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings said he expects other private donations to fund the rest of the Harold Simmons Park, according to Dallas News.

It will become part of the larger nature district, called the Trinity River Project, that began in the early 2000s. As of June 2015, the city had spent over $609 million to build trails, a bridge, a horse park, a golf course, and a community center in a 6,200-acre forested area. In the future, there are also plans to build shops, restaurants, housing, and offices near the river.

Check out what the Harold Simmons Park portion, designed by Michael Van Valkenburgh Associates, will look like:

http://www.businessinsider.com/dallas-trinity-river-park-project-2016-12/#visitors-will-be-able-to-peer-out-on-a-pedestrian-overpass-as-seen-below-a-few-roads-will-also-run-through-the-park-3


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TurismoDreamin on December 29, 2016, 04:37:33 pm
So I was driving along Riverside the other night between 41st and 36th street. The street has been updated with a fresh concrete surface and new LED lighting. The problem is that in this small half mile stretch, the new lighting had so much spill that it illuminated well into the surrounding neighborhoods. I thought there were new standards in place to prevent spill like this.

(http://i.imgur.com/bYvkyMF.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on December 29, 2016, 11:09:35 pm
So I was driving along Riverside the other night between 41st and 36th street. The street has been updated with a fresh concrete surface and new LED lighting. The problem is that in this small half mile stretch, the new lighting had so much spill that it illuminated well into the surrounding neighborhoods. I thought there were new standards in place to prevent spill like this.

Well there are:

http://www.tmapc.org/Documents/TulsaZoningCodeAdopted110515.pdf

Section 65.090-B (General Standards) says

Light sources must be concealed or shielded with cutoffs so that no more than 2.5% of the light emitted directly from the lamp or indirectly from the fixture is projected at an angle of more than 90 degrees above nadir and no more than 10% of the light emitted directly from the lamp or indirectly from the fixture is projected at an angle of more than 80 degrees above nadir.

Light trespass along the lot line of the subject property may not exceed 0.5 foot candles when abutting an agricultural or residential zoning district and may not exceed 3.0 foot candles when abutting any other zoning district or public right of way. Maximum illumination levels are measured 3 feet above grade or from the top of any opaque screening fence or wall along the property line.



The first paragraph requires what was known in the lighting industry as "Cutoff"
(http://www.lithonia.com/micro_webs/nighttimefriendly/images/cutoffclassifications.jpg)
which is much more lax than the "Full-Cutoff" in the illustration to its left.  The later is generally considered the most glare-free.

The second paragraph has been used by municipalities for decades to mop-up the excess left by the first paragraph; i.e., non-conforming, malfunctioning or improperly installed lighting that creates a nuisance or safety hazard.


Oh, one thing:  Section 65.090 -A (2) says city streetlighting is exempt from all that.
I argued in my peer review that the city should set the example and apply the regulations to new and upgraded street lighting, but that was not among the recommendations the council went with.

That this would be going on at a fragile ecosystem like the river is just shameful, and completely avoidable given better lighting design.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on December 31, 2016, 12:04:50 am
I drove thru the area tonight, and I can hardly think of the words to describe how bad that lighting is.  Its far beyond overkill, and there's no way the city is going to keep it like that.

The first step would be to halt the expansion of those lights further down Riverside Drive until the city can review more sane options.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: cannon_fodder on January 03, 2017, 08:48:26 am
What causes these decisions?

Does it cost more to do it "right?"  Is there a (wrong) idea that more light is always better, so flood the neighborhood?  Does anyone actually want to be able to play Frisbee 24/7?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: tulsamatt on January 03, 2017, 09:34:55 am
They also seem to stay on during the day...

(http://i.imgur.com/Kbo1znF.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on January 03, 2017, 12:47:30 pm
What causes these decisions?

Does it cost more to do it "right?"  Is there a (wrong) idea that more light is always better, so flood the neighborhood?  Does anyone actually want to be able to play Frisbee 24/7?

At this point im very concerned about the rest of the lighting plan for the park.  If its as bad as this, we will be spending a lot of money and time correcting it later if we arent able to correct it now.

Does it cost more to do it right? 
One big draw to LED lighting is you get more bang for the buck (Lumens per Watt) than older technology it replaces, so you could light a street to the same levels for a fraction of the cost of what you used to. 
Some have twisted that to mean you can spend the same amount of money and get brighter lights instead.  That would be fine if you really had a need for the brighter lights -- but obviously in this case we didnt -- so the only winner was the vendor, not the people.

Im going to get out the tripod and light meter and come up with some photos and some solid numbers, but basically any reasonable person can figure this out with their naked eye. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on January 03, 2017, 01:24:08 pm
any reasonable person

Those are in short supply

(speaking of cutoffs... can someone resize @TurismoDreamin's image or add dimensions to his [img] tag?)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on January 03, 2017, 02:11:15 pm
What causes these decisions?




Low bid.  With the appropriate amount of "return on capital" to the decision maker.  Maybe something like a nice golf weekend to a nearby resort.... Or a pickup truck!





Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: tulsamatt on January 09, 2017, 08:09:56 pm
Thought I'd share a few more photos of these crazy lights on Riverside...

(http://i.imgur.com/yn5Rwyy.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Zf15TKv.jpg)

And this third photo taken from my yard over a block away... Just glad I don't have any windows facing west.
(http://i.imgur.com/zfa4M8i.jpg)


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: patric on January 10, 2017, 01:42:45 pm
Searched the interwebs for a lighting plan for The Gathering Place with no luck.  The pretty renderings dont show any lighting at all so I guess it either shuts down at dusk or glows on its own.  ::)

Any pointers?



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on May 11, 2017, 10:57:57 am
Reopening of Riverside Drive pushed back by weather-related delays in Gathering Place construction

It seems a little strange that weather is to blame. 

I'm all for taking their time with the park but I'd love it if Riverside Drive could open back up.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: SXSW on May 11, 2017, 12:10:18 pm
What is the timeline for Zink Dam and the new pedestrian bridge?  Will those coincide with the opening of the second phase and the Children's Museum? 

Per the TW article the Children's Garden is supposed to open in January but how do you access it without Riverside open?  Through the neighborhoods to the north on Boston?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on May 11, 2017, 12:13:37 pm
This is very disappointing.  While I'm 100% supportive of the project in general, I think there should have been more planning or evaluations around the closing of Riverside Drive.  4 years is a long time to be without a major arterial into downtown.  The amount of traffic that an already undersized US 75 corridor is having to shoulder on a daily basis is absurd. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 11, 2017, 12:58:11 pm
This is very disappointing.  While I'm 100% supportive of the project in general, I think there should have been more planning or evaluations around the closing of Riverside Drive.  4 years is a long time to be without a major arterial into downtown.  The amount of traffic that an already undersized US 75 corridor is having to shoulder on a daily basis is absurd. 

I moved to midtown recently so I can sit on my porch and shake my cane at this one too.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on May 11, 2017, 02:22:36 pm
This is very disappointing.  While I'm 100% supportive of the project in general, I think there should have been more planning or evaluations around the closing of Riverside Drive.  4 years is a long time to be without a major arterial into downtown.  The amount of traffic that an already undersized US 75 corridor is having to shoulder on a daily basis is absurd. 

To be quite honest, I really didn’t notice any more traffic than before along Highway 75 coming and going through the downtown loop out to W. 41st and I made that commute for 12 years until March.  I assume the heavy NB traffic I’d see when I did venture south of I-44 in the morning was due to more people locating to Jenks and Glenpool and didn’t attribute that to Riverside being shut down in midtown.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: johrasephoenix on May 11, 2017, 09:39:14 pm
With Riverside closed, I still have yet to encounter a real, major-city grade traffic jam.  You can breeze up and down Peoria or Denver or Boston no problem. 


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on May 12, 2017, 12:37:51 pm
With Riverside closed, I still have yet to encounter a real, major-city grade traffic jam.  You can breeze up and down Peoria or Denver or Boston no problem. 

Exactly.  I live not far off Riverside and 31st.  Certainly, I will use Riverside when it opens back up.   But I have seen very few major backups, and had very little inconvenience, using Peoria or one of the other N/S arterials.  It's just not that big a deal.



Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on May 12, 2017, 01:56:45 pm
I must be hitting Peoria on the exception days.  The dozen times or so I’ve traveled on Peoria around rush hour it’s been much more congested than before Riverside Drive closed.  In general, I would say it’s like major streets in larger cities at rush hour.  Not insurmountable, but worse than it was before.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on May 12, 2017, 08:30:05 pm
I must be hitting Peoria on the exception days.  The dozen times or so I’ve traveled on Peoria around rush hour it’s been much more congested than before Riverside Drive closed.  In general, I would say it’s like major streets in larger cities at rush hour.  Not insurmountable, but worse than it was before.

My experience has been similar to yours. The fact you can't turn left going south at 15th or 21st and Peoria is a huge pain too.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Gold on May 14, 2017, 07:37:35 pm
The traffic in midtown is much worse since Riverside closed.  There are several factors involved with this:
1. Fix Our Streets closings (all of the parallel streets from Riverside to Peoria have been closed at different intervals).  Utica had major construction for a time.  21st has been under construction at different times (21st and Lewis is always under construction, it seems).  
2.  ODOT closings.  75 was mentioned above and that was poorly timed.  They closed lanes on the Broken Arrow expressway into downtown.  They closed the Cincinnati ramp downtown until next year and that's a major entrance to the BA downtown.  The bridge over the BA on Boston was closed for the better part of a year.
3.  Stupid things that shouldn't happen.  Corner Cafe has a delivery truck that sometimes parks on Peoria during morning rush hour, but I think enough people have honked and thrown obscenities that they stopped that.  Palace Cafe occasionally does the same thing.  The powers that be like to throw out some orange cones in Brookside at 5 pm on random days.  I have noticed more semi-trucks on Peoria (they have to drive somewhere) and that road is just too narrow to get around them most of the time.  31st and Peoria should allow a right on red.  That light at 19th and Utica is a crime against reason most of the time.  

Some of these things should have been handled better.  The 75 construction really needed to wait.  I will attest that since 75 became a parking lot, my drive home along Utica is much worse.  Taking Peoria to get to downtown is just terrible with all those stoplights -- my morning commute looks like the last Mad Max movie.  My wife and I are very busy and spend a lot of time in our cars running around town.  Those extra 20-30 minutes for some car trips really adds up.  The resulting bad traffic is just bad optics for living here -- for example, there are days where traffic on Utica is blocked up to Baumgardner's faux Italian monstrosity from the light at Terwilleger.  People here don't know how to handle this type of traffic and I see douchy things that I haven't seen north of Dallas throughout midtown.

I also find the excuses asserted by the Gathering Place folks to be contrived and unpersuasive.  It always rains here in the Spring.  If they didn't plan for that, I'm concerned about what other things they haven't planned for.  If they actually communicated some concern and respect for people affected by this, that might go a long way.  They keep telling us it will be great when it opens.  My take is this: if it never opens, it ain't that great.  And right now it feels like it will never open.  They better not ask for another extension.  (Oh wait, they don't ask, the extensions are just decreed from on high by an unelected city engineer.)

I'd like to see the city provide some leadership here, but I have heard nothing so far.  They like to blame ODOT in that ODOT appears to just randomly inform them of projects.  Those need to be coordinated better.  

I'm not some tinfoil hat, anti-development person.  I want to see the city grow and the Gathering Place should do a lot.  But Riverside is a public right of way and that should be respected more than it has been.  

And ODOT.  They suck.  


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TheArtist on May 15, 2017, 06:36:27 am
They probably did get pushed back some due to weather (though indeed its not as though we haven't got lots of rain in the springs before etc. and that should have been in the planning for something this big).  But I can also imagine the extra push to have things be officially finished up late spring next year is so that the "grand reveal/opening" can make more of a splash.  I am sure they want to make this a big media event, and even a national one.  Having the park open during the winter for example, even if its a "soft opening" will mute the opportunity for the "big splash" for even that late fall or winter opening would get some news which would lessen the novelty of having everything, including the street, open all at once when everything is green and planted and looking top notch.  They surely want the "theater" to be right on this.   


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Weatherdemon on May 15, 2017, 06:51:03 am
The 75 project was poorly planned is being poorly executed not only south of I44 but the project tearing down the bridge at 36th street north.
Cones seem randomly placed and are are set up to instruct you to move sometimes only a block from the lane is closed.

As for the Gathering Place, we have not had any more wet days than usual over the last year. The stuff with the trees may be legit, I don't know though but, I'm not sure how they have chewed up all of there swag time already.
Maybe the the first contractor dropped out because it couldn't be done on time.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 15, 2017, 07:46:44 am
Agreed that the Hwy 75 makeover was very poorly timed.  Either there was no thought or no coordination with other projects as it was being planned.  That's the two north-south corridors choked off.

BUT - take heart.  Since the closure of Riverside happens in midtown there are alternative routes.  Traffic can filter through every neighborhood.  That's a major pain in the butt, but it gives people options. Highway 75 parallels Union and 33rd W. Avenue, which were both underutilized 4 lane roads (by traffic count).  Still not a great solution but -

How many subdivisions in south Tulsa have either only one outlet, or maybe two?  If, heaven forbid, the roads ever require major construction in South Tulsa, traffic can't filter through neighborhoods.  It all has to be funneled the only other available direction, to some thoroughfare that is already heavily utilized during rush hour. There simply is no option and no thoroughfare that isn't already stressed during peak use.

So we have that to look forward to when we neglect street maintenance in the future and play catch up.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on May 15, 2017, 08:05:46 am
(https://i.imgflip.com/1p2ah9.jpg)


Title: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AdamsHall on August 11, 2017, 10:49:19 am
I am not sure this is the best post for this question, but does anyone know if Riverside between I-44 and the Gathering Place will be rebuilt (not expanded)?  That stretch is not in great condition.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: bacjz00 on August 11, 2017, 12:39:18 pm
According to http://fixourstreetslive.com, it doesn't appear that there is a project in the plans for this.   There may be something further out?

Does anyone know if there are any plans to give our new park a NAME beyond "A Gathering Place for Tulsa"?

Sure it will be an awesome park, and the experience will speak for itself, but it seems like we could do ourselves a favor and try to market this thing to visitors a little better (in addition to our local residents).   

This conversation keeps playing out in my mind.

Visitor to local barman:  Where can I go while I'm in town?
Barman: You should definitely head over to A Gathering Place for Tulsa... it's fantastic
Visitor: Oh yeah?  That sounds interesting!  Is it a club?  Are people from other places allowed to go there?
Barman: No silly! It's a park! A big...no, HUGE... and beautiful park!! It's the biggest and best of its kind in this region.  And it's for everyone to enjoy!
Visitor: Oh so it's not just a place to gather? It's not like a swap meet?
Barman: No.  There are lots of things to see and do there.  It's a first class park, with a Children's Museum and nature trails and running trails and sport courts. 
Visitor: Well thanks! I'll check it out.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on August 11, 2017, 12:59:17 pm
Does anyone know if there are any plans to give our new park a NAME beyond "A Gathering Place for Tulsa"?

Sure it will be an awesome park, and the experience will speak for itself, but it seems like we could do ourselves a favor and try to market this thing to visitors a little better (in addition to our local residents).   

I see  "The Gathering Place for Tulsa" being shortened (it already has been) to "the gathering place".  Kind of like in Ft Worth when they say "go to the museum district".   Meaning, there is a lot of stuff to do in the area, not just the museum.  TGP (see, shortened it even more...) is more than a park.   Admittedly, I didn't like the name either when I first heard it,  but I like it now.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AdamsHall on August 11, 2017, 01:01:30 pm
According to http://fixourstreetslive.com, it doesn't appear that there is a project in the plans for this.   There may be something further out?

Thanks.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: AdamsHall on August 11, 2017, 01:06:20 pm
I see  "The Gathering Place for Tulsa" being shortened (it already has been) to "the gathering place".  Kind of like in Ft Worth when they say "go to the museum district".   Meaning, there is a lot of stuff to do in the area, not just the museum.  TGP (see, shortened it even more...) is more than a park.   Admittedly, I didn't like the name either when I first heard it,  but I like it now.

Agree.  I wasn't crazy about the name until recently when I was able to see a presentation on the various components of the park, then the name made sense to me.  There was a lot of planning (beyond the typical development items) aimed at developing community.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Conan71 on August 11, 2017, 01:28:18 pm
According to http://fixourstreetslive.com, it doesn't appear that there is a project in the plans for this.   There may be something further out?

Does anyone know if there are any plans to give our new park a NAME beyond "A Gathering Place for Tulsa"?

Sure it will be an awesome park, and the experience will speak for itself, but it seems like we could do ourselves a favor and try to market this thing to visitors a little better (in addition to our local residents).   

This conversation keeps playing out in my mind.

Visitor to local barman:  Where can I go while I'm in town?
Barman: You should definitely head over to A Gathering Place for Tulsa... it's fantastic
Visitor: Oh yeah?  That sounds interesting!  Is it a club?  Are people from other places allowed to go there?
Barman: No silly! It's a park! A big...no, HUGE... and beautiful park!! It's the biggest and best of its kind in this region.  And it's for everyone to enjoy!
Visitor: Oh so it's not just a place to gather? It's not like a swap meet?
Barman: No.  There are lots of things to see and do there.  It's a first class park, with a Children's Museum and nature trails and running trails and sport courts. 
Visitor: Well thanks! I'll check it out.

Don't hold me to this, but I could have sworn I saw a hardscape or wooden sign which said "A Gathering Place For Tulsa" on the construction site in Kevin Canfield's last piece he did with Jeff Stava.  I think they are committed to that name.  For a few hundred million, apparently you can name it anything you want, no matter how disjointed it sounds to the rest of us.  I guess it's better than Mr. Kaiser seeking to plaster his name all over it as "Kaiser World" or some such thing.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: sgrizzle on August 12, 2017, 04:25:53 pm
Don't hold me to this, but I could have sworn I saw a hardscape or wooden sign which said "A Gathering Place For Tulsa" on the construction site in Kevin Canfield's last piece he did with Jeff Stava.  I think they are committed to that name.  For a few hundred million, apparently you can name it anything you want, no matter how disjointed it sounds to the rest of us.  I guess it's better than Mr. Kaiser seeking to plaster his name all over it as "Kaiser World" or some such thing.

You're not imagining, it's a pretty expensive sign too.

I imagine this park will become more of a district than a specific thing. People may go to the playground, boathouse, children's museum, etc.

Also I suspect that since we are in Tulsa and already abbreviate things, "A Gathering Place for Tulsa" will just become "A Gathering Place," "Gathering Place," or we'll just amalgamate it as RiverParks.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: dsjeffries on August 14, 2017, 09:02:19 am
Don't hold me to this, but I could have sworn I saw a hardscape or wooden sign which said "A Gathering Place For Tulsa" on the construction site in Kevin Canfield's last piece he did with Jeff Stava.  I think they are committed to that name.  For a few hundred million, apparently you can name it anything you want, no matter how disjointed it sounds to the rest of us.  I guess it's better than Mr. Kaiser seeking to plaster his name all over it as "Kaiser World" or some such thing.

It's actually some sort of stone. They're using the same stone as flooring in the lodge. I really don't think this is the final name, though.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DowntownDan on August 14, 2017, 09:26:25 am
Will opening phase 1 include reopening the Midland Valley Trail to the Rivertrail connection?


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: Townsend on August 14, 2017, 11:11:18 am

Also I suspect that since we are in Tulsa and already abbreviate things, "A Gathering Place for Tulsa" will just become "A Gathering Place," "Gathering Place," or we'll just amalgamate it as RiverParks.

"Tul Gat Pla"


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: DTowner on August 14, 2017, 01:09:52 pm
I wonder if at the time New Yorkers thought “Central Park” was an inspired name for what would become one of the city’s iconic destinations.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 15, 2017, 08:11:15 am
I wonder if at the time New Yorkers thought “Central Park” was an inspired name for what would become one of the city’s iconic destinations.


I don't see a problem. The park itself will be amazing. I think people will be willing to use an extra syllable to describe it ("Gathering Place" rather than "River Parks").

Since the plans were announced, was there ever any question that the name "Gathering Place for Tulsa" wouldn't be official? No name will make everyone happy. Lets see if we can find a better name for the city. "Tulsa" just isn't doing it for me. Too clunky!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 15, 2017, 08:26:38 am
This conversation keeps playing out in my mind.

Visitor to local barman:  Where can I go while I'm in town?
Barman: You should definitely head over to A Gathering Place for Tulsa... it's fantastic
Visitor: Oh yeah?  That sounds interesting!  Is it a club?  Are people from other places allowed to go there?
Barman: No silly! It's a park! A big...no, HUGE... and beautiful park!! It's the biggest and best of its kind in this region.  And it's for everyone to enjoy!
Visitor: Oh so it's not just a place to gather? It's not like a swap meet?
Barman: No.  There are lots of things to see and do there.  It's a first class park, with a Children's Museum and nature trails and running trails and sport courts. 
Visitor: Well thanks! I'll check it out.

I have talked to well over a dozen out-of-towners and people moving here about the Gathering Place and no one ever had any issue understanding what it is or confusion/complaints over the name. Yes, you do have to say it's a park, but just about every city has something you hear about that isn't part of the name.

I don't think many will call it "A Gathering Place for Tulsa", but just "the Gathering Place". That is easy enough to me.  "Crystal Bridges" is 4 syllables and not obvious what it is from the name, but easy to remember (what is that, an over-the-river ICE SKATING RINK!?!?!).

Many people might default to "River Parks" which is fine too. We will just have perhaps the best River Parks in the country!


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: rebound on August 15, 2017, 08:29:45 am
I don't see a problem. The park itself will be amazing. I think people will be willing to use an extra syllable to describe it ("Gathering Place" rather than "River Parks").

Since the plans were announced, was there ever any question that the name "Gathering Place for Tulsa" wouldn't be official? No name will make everyone happy. Lets see if we can find a better name for the city. "Tulsa" just isn't doing it for me. Too clunky!

"Tulsa" started at "Tulsey Town".   Everything gets shortened in common use.


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 15, 2017, 09:06:31 am
"Tulsa" started at "Tulsey Town".   Everything gets shortened in common use.

Before that, it started as "Tallasi" which is a contraction of the Creek word "Tullahassee" that means "Old Town".

I don't see how people will shorten Gathering Place much though. Please not "Gat-Pla"!

How about GatPla-O-Ri-Si! (Gathering Place on River Side)  ;D


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: BKDotCom on August 15, 2017, 09:40:20 am
Before that, it started as "Tallasi" which is a contraction of the Creek word "Tullahassee" that means "Old Town".

I don't see how people will shorten Gathering Place much though. Please not "Gat-Pla"!

How about GatPla-O-Ri-Si! (Gathering Place on River Side)  ;D

"The Place"
"The Park"
"Park Place"


Title: Re: (PROJECT) A Gathering Place For Tulsa
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 15, 2017, 06:45:30 pm
I see  "The Gathering Place for Tulsa" being shortened (it already has been) to "the gathering place".  Kind of like in Ft Worth when they say "go to the museum district".   Meaning, there is a lot of stuff to do in the area, not just the museum.  TGP (see, shortened it even more...) is more than a park.   Admittedly, I didn't like the name either when I first heard it,  but I like it now.


Had the misfortune to fly in on AA Sunday and walking to baggage claim there is a loonnnggggg mural in that last hall before baggage.  Nice artwork and they were calling it "Gathering Place"... I pretty much knew what it was without the "for Tulsa" part.