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Talk About Tulsa => Other Tulsa Discussion => Topic started by: dsjeffries on February 12, 2012, 10:24:57 am



Title: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: dsjeffries on February 12, 2012, 10:24:57 am
Quote
“I think what we're doing here is asking the rest of the state taxpayers to subsidize our economic development in Oklahoma City,” Treat said.

Ya think?! It's about time a legislator finally is raising these questions.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-lawmakers-question-financing-for-american-indian-cultural-center-and-museum/article/3648026#ixzz1mBVITMX9 (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-lawmakers-question-financing-for-american-indian-cultural-center-and-museum/article/3648026#ixzz1mBVITMX9)

Quote
Some Oklahoma lawmakers are questioning the capabilities and finances of a state agency that has worked since 1994 to build the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum, which remains half completed.
 
“There is way too much money being spent on salaries by an entity that hasn't completed the reason it exists,” said Sen. Patrick Anderson, R-Enid. “The fact that we haven't been able to finish the project raises concerns.”

Anderson has two bills dealing with the stalled cultural center at the intersection of Interstates 40 and 35.

One bill would eliminate the state agency that was created 18 years ago by lawmakers to build the cultural center and would give the project instead to the Oklahoma Historical Society. The other bill requires annual audits of the agency.

In addition to the $67.4 million the state has provided for construction of the cultural center, every year the state appropriates $1.5 million to run the Native American Cultural and Educational Authority.

The agency spends just shy of a million dollars a year on salaries, wages and benefits, according to self-reported audits from the State Auditors Office. The agency spends less than $30,000 every year on travel and $40,000 a year on rent for the agency's office at 900 N Broadway. Additionally the agency spends about $100,000 a year on advertising and printing.

‘Modest budget'
Gena Timberman, director of the cultural center and museum, said the bulk of their allocation goes to salaries and then they use the remaining half million dollars to run the agency.

“We're proud to report that we operate on a modest budget actually for what we're doing,” Timberman said. “Other cultural centers and museums are created, they're actually built around a collection and pre-existing staff ... We have to create, to craft, the institutional identity pre-opening.”
While the 125,000 square foot building is being constructed, Timberman and her staff have been traveling throughout the state meeting with tribes and developing content for the museum.

The newly hired executive director for the authority, Blake Wade, said one of his jobs was to investigate and ensure that the agency has been financially accountable for the past 10 years.

“I found through going through all of their audits that all accountability has been secured,” Wade said.

Wade, who works part-time for $40,000 a year, is heading up the effort to raise $40 million in private funds to finish the project. The agency is asking for an additional $40 million from the state this year to match the private funds and complete the project.

“Since there has been a change in the executive director position they have gotten serious about raising some private dollars,” said Sen. Greg Treat, R-Oklahoma City. “My problem with it is it's all contingent upon us passing a $40 million bond issue. I am opposed to indebting the state more.”

Bond issue vote
Treat has proposed a bill that would make the bond issue a vote of the people.

“If it's the will of the people to indebt ourselves over $100 million on this project, then it's the will of the people. I don't think it is though,” Treat said.

Wade said that the additional $80 million in private and public funding would be enough to complete the cultural center by December 2014. The total cost of the project will be $170 million and from the date of groundbreaking in 2007 will have taken eight years.

The Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian in Washington, D.C. opened in September 2004 after five years of construction and $200 million.
The Oklahoma History Museum in Oklahoma City took approximately six years to complete and cost approximately $62 million.

Timberman said it's difficult to compare projects because of unique issues facing each. The land Oklahoma City donated for the museum was a contaminated flood zone when the project first began, and the site preparation slowed the project considerably.

“Any time you delay commencement or completion, the cost is going to change,” Timberman said. “The fiscally responsible thing to do would be to complete the project.”

Offset the cost
She said once the museum opens it will begin generating revenue to offset the cost to the state.

Bob Blackburn, executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society, said that scrutiny of a project and an agency is a good thing.

“At one time a legislator in 1991 or 1992 attempted to abolish the Oklahoma Historical Society,” Blackburn said. “It allowed us to focus on mission, responsibility and authority. It created a conversation with the House members who were upset about a number of things.”

Obviously the agency persevered, and Blackburn said it indirectly led to the creation of the Oklahoma History Museum.

Today his agency oversees 32 museums throughout the state.

He said that museum creation is a difficult task. When the Oklahoma History Museum was being constructed he had a team of 20 employees in addition to a number of hired consultants working on exhibits.

“We rented a 20,000 square foot bowling alley to stage our museum project on North Lincoln,” Blackburn said. “Museum building is an expensive business. If you want Smithsonian quality, National Archives quality, it costs.”

Blackburn said he knows that the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum is aiming for that level of product.

Timberman said that in addition to the museum, her agency is responsible for three other projects: an 8,000 square foot visitor center, a 250 acre park and 40 acres of commercial property that will be developed.

The agency, using privately raised funds held by a separate nonprofit entity, has hired The Greeby Companies, a Chicago-based consultant firm to help attract investors for the 40 acre mixed-use development.

The company cost $350,000 in fiscal year 2009 and $275,000 in fiscal year 2008.

‘Nonstate funds'
“We've used nonstate funds for the benefit of the state,” Timberman said. “They've shepherded us through the process, assisted us with feasibility of the development opportunities and selection of potential developers.”

The commercial park will benefit the state financially for ever, she said.

Senators Treat and Anderson both said they feel the project is a good thing for the state, however, it was not a priority project.

“I think what we're doing here is asking the rest of the state taxpayers to subsidize our economic development in Oklahoma City,” Treat said.
Anderson said he thinks bond issues for the state Capitol and for the Medical Examiner's office should take precedence.

“I'm very cautious about any bond issues, borrowing money from the state of Oklahoma,” Anderson said. “There's over a billion dollars in bond requests that are out there.”
Wade and Timberman said the state made a commitment to completing this project as an economic development tool for the entire state.
They estimate it will have 425,000 visitors annually and generate $3.8 billion in economic impact over 20 years.

I'd also like to point out that the state has already spent $67.4 million on this endless project through various bonds and are now asking for an additional $40 million, while smaller projects promised to Tulsa leaders get tossed. The American Indian Museum in Tulsa, Arkansas River dams, Oklahoma Museum of Pop Culture, John Hope Franklin Park, Greenwood Cultural Center, Oklahoma State University Medical Center, Heartland Flyer extension, Oklahoma Centennial Botanical Gardens and others come to mind as projects either canceled, scaled back or that were required to find private funding because the Oklahoma State Legislature didn't fulfill its promise of funding or because they deem it frivolous and wrong to boost Tulsa's economic or cultural development at the expense of the rest of the state. We're a donor city and have been since 1907.

I know the charge has been raised before, but when are Tulsa's leaders going to stand up for our area? And for that matter, when is the rest of the state going to tire of funding a never-ending stream of projects that benefit only Oklahoma City? "Need another $40 million for that unfinished steel head dress that's cost nearly $70 million already? We'll have to get support from our legislators representing Tulsa." Tulsa reps: "We'll support it as long as you'll support some projects in Tulsa." All: "We've got a deal!" Next week: "Sorry Tulsa friends, couldn't find the money for your project after we spent it on our projects."


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on February 12, 2012, 11:39:53 am
Maybe there is some awareness of OKC grabbing off funds from the rest of the state. But we should beware. It was a representative from Enid that tried to shut off funding for Zink Dam repair and improvements. Maybe the rest of the state is just tired of funding anything in the larger cities which includes Tulsa.

It is hard to understand how a state named after the Indians has such difficulty funding an American Indian museum. Even if there are no improprieties in accounting, one has to wonder if the right personnel was put in charge of fundraising.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: DTowner on February 12, 2012, 01:28:20 pm
Maybe there is some awareness of OKC grabbing off funds from the rest of the state. But we should beware. It was a representative from Enid that tried to shut off funding for Zink Dam repair and improvements. Maybe the rest of the state is just tired of funding anything in the larger cities which includes Tulsa.

It is hard to understand how a state named after the Indians has such difficulty funding an American Indian museum. Even if there are no improprieties in accounting, one has to wonder if the right personnel was put in charge of fundraising.

It has always been unclear to me how this organization was allowed to start construction with state bond money without actually having the necessary private money raised or pledged.  It's as if they knew if they started it, the state would feel obligated to pay to finish it.  Indeed, even Gov. Fallen used that argment last year in arguing additional state bond money should be used to finish the project.  If the Oklahoma Pop Musuem ever gets any state funding, you can be sure that it will not be allowed to start construction until all the private money is raised.



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: TheArtist on February 12, 2012, 04:24:59 pm
  From what I have hear, even the tribes arent really interested in this thing.  Also, per the Oklahoma Pop Museum, the state is now requiring that we pay for and submit a more detailed architectural "build out" assessment, which I believe is just about finished up, so that our museum won't run into the same huge cost overruns the Indian Museum has.  Smart thing to do, just wish they had done it for the Indian Museum as well. Lessons learned Hindsight is 20/20 I guess. 


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 12, 2012, 09:54:51 pm
Sounds like the Indians have learned the art of graft and corruption from the legislature.

Or their Mafia Casino buddies.

Probably both....




Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 14, 2012, 01:34:37 pm
I noticed the Whirled finally got around to running this story this morning.  If you've seen the site, it's pretty unbelievable to realize that this will have cost almost as much as the BOK Center when it is finished.  Certainly they could have already had this done for the money spent already.  There really needs to be a full accounting and some people held accountable finally.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 14, 2012, 03:17:19 pm
I noticed the Whirled finally got around to running this story this morning.  If you've seen the site, it's pretty unbelievable to realize that this will have cost almost as much as the BOK Center when it is finished.  Certainly they could have already had this done for the money spent already.  There really needs to be a full accounting and some people held accountable finally.

You must have seen that big pile of dirt they made...ain't that coooooolllll??



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 14, 2012, 03:29:17 pm
You must have seen that big pile of dirt they made...ain't that coooooolllll??



Yeah, a big dump.  How prophetic.  Somehow, they brought in the Oklahoma History Museum for around $60 or $70 mil.  Somehow, they've managed to build several boathouses in the same "contaminated flood plain" in less than a year each and for $5 mil or less fully-equipped.  $170 million for 125,000 square feet?  Really?  That's $1360 a foot!


This is a huge waste and I suppose it's gone on long enough because everyone is so God damned afraid of being called a racist these days even when it comes to ending huge waste of taxpayer resources.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 14, 2012, 04:13:23 pm
Yeah, a big dump.  How prophetic.  Somehow, they brought in the Oklahoma History Museum for around $60 or $70 mil.  Somehow, they've managed to build several boathouses in the same "contaminated flood plain" in less than a year each and for $5 mil or less fully-equipped.  $170 million for 125,000 square feet?  Really?  That's $1360 a foot!


This is a huge waste and I suppose it's gone on long enough because everyone is so God damned afraid of being called a racist these days even when it comes to ending huge waste of taxpayer resources.

Another one of those times we are on not just the same page, but line number, word and letter....


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 14, 2012, 06:03:14 pm
Waste with a capital "W".

The tribes are not behind this project... they have  little interested.  Particularily since the OSage, Cherokee, Creek, Pawnee, and Chotaw are no where near the thing (read:  the largest tribes in the state accounting for the vast majority of tribal members as well as wealth).  NO part of OKC is even within tribal jurisdiction.  In the time it has taken to pretend to build this thing the tribes have built their own cultural centers (and Universities, and business centers, and hotels, and casinos, and...).

It may have been a good idea for the initial $50mil (or whatever) they proposed .  It is a horrible idea at $200 million (sunk cost + interest on the money we borrowed to do it) plus $1mil a year to keep from admitting it is a horrible idea.  Admit we screwed up, it isn't working. 

And that isn't even mentioning the fact that Tulsa constantly gets screwed on funding projects...


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 14, 2012, 06:14:29 pm
Waste with a capital "W".

The tribes are not behind this project... they have  little interested.  Particularily since the OSage, Cherokee, Creek, Pawnee, and Chotaw are no where near the thing (read:  the largest tribes in the state accounting for the vast majority of tribal members as well as wealth).  NO part of OKC is even within tribal jurisdiction.  In the time it has taken to pretend to build this thing the tribes have built their own cultural centers (and Universities, and business centers, and hotels, and casinos, and...).

It may have been a good idea for the initial $50mil (or whatever) they proposed .  It is a horrible idea at $200 million (sunk cost + interest on the money we borrowed to do it) plus $1mil a year to keep from admitting it is a horrible idea.  Admit we screwed up, it isn't working. 

And that isn't even mentioning the fact that Tulsa constantly gets screwed on funding projects...

Just curious how many homeless people in downtown OKC could have been helped by $200mm over 15 years?  It would be interesting to look at the genesis of this project and figure out whose brother-in-law or sister-in-law stood to benefit from this. 


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: sgrizzle on February 15, 2012, 10:06:59 am
Keep in mind Tulsa was supposed to get a museum like this as well but got no state support (or tribal really for that matter)

The project in OKC was way too big, way too expensive and needs to sit half-finished just like it is until someone decides to donate the money to finish or it gets sold to a developer for an office park.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: shadows on February 15, 2012, 08:05:45 pm
We want your plantations you have developed and we will give you in exchange this land forever as long as the wind blows and the water flows.  We will move you at our expense to your new home where you can establish your own government.   
Just hold up, you sided with the South in the war of 1860 and the Glenpool strike of an enormous pool of oil was discovered.  Now to make the Sooner’s legal we are going to open the Promised Land up to settlers.  Now you want us to spend money on building you a museum.   Ridiculous!   


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on February 16, 2012, 09:57:37 am
So, just blurt it out Shadows. "WE AIN'T HELPIN' NO STINKIN' WHITEYS EVEN IF IT MEANS OUR HISTORY IS KEPT TO OURSELVES!"

You act like the tribes live on a separate planet that the Romulons Ferengi's own.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 16, 2012, 10:02:35 am

You act like the tribes live on a separate planet that the Romulons own.

Romulans don't recognize ownership like the Ferengi.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on February 16, 2012, 10:18:22 am
Romulans don't recognize ownership like the Ferengi.

Yeah, I forgot. The Ferengi were the business guys. What was Whorf?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 16, 2012, 10:19:33 am
Yeah, I forgot. The Ferengi were the business guys. What was Whorf?

Klingon raised by Russians.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2012, 10:31:01 am
We've made plenty in reparations.  At what point does it become extortion?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 16, 2012, 02:07:58 pm
We've made plenty in reparations.  At what point does it become extortion?

After fair value payment has been made.

What is the present value of all the lands, minerals, and resources that were taken without payment?  Plus interest for anywhere from 60 to 400 years.

Plus the price for each human being snuffed out in the process over the same years?  Didn't Ford do a study on that when deciding whether to fix the Pinto or not?  Multiply that number by about 50 million or so.


Or just call it good...





Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2012, 02:33:38 pm
After fair value payment has been made.

What is the present value of all the lands, minerals, and resources that were taken without payment?  Plus interest for anywhere from 60 to 400 years.

Plus the price for each human being snuffed out in the process over the same years?  Didn't Ford do a study on that when deciding whether to fix the Pinto or not?  Multiply that number by about 50 million or so.


Or just call it good...





Take a look at all the mineral resources which have helped the tribes collectively and individually as well as all this sovereignty which allows them to circumvent certain laws to have an advantage selling tobacco and building and operating casinos which have helped the tribes immensely.  Their members get to use state schools and drive on state and federally-funded highways while escaping paying the same taxes on their cars as we do to maintain those schools and roads with the exception of some compact agreements.

Quote
“We knew we (tribes) had taxation rights as sovereign nations,”
said Sac & Fox chief Kay Rhoads. “Our lands are exempt from state
taxes, so our citizens did not deserve taxation through state car tag
sales.  http://indiancountrynews.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1109&Itemid=33

I'd say they are doing pretty well, Heir.  I'm no hater, simply stating the facts that there's been plenty made in terms of reparations and trying to give what used to be a struggling demographic a hand up socially and monetarily.  I'm putting the cultural center into the context of yet one more reparation which really has no tangible benefit and seems to lack the interest and backing from the tribes.



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: cannon_fodder on February 16, 2012, 03:48:44 pm
If we are calling for reparations...

My ancestors are from Bavaria, we were raped and pillaged by Rome.  Then raided by the damn Belgians, and French before being pillaged by the Kaiser and sucked into Prussia (and later Germany).   In the end my family was forced to abandon our land and flee to America.  I want my money from the Belgians, Frogs, and Germans. Especially those damn industrious Germans.

My grandfather lost brothers to the Japanese in WWII... I've never seen a damn dime for that loss.

My wife is Irish, her grandparents were forced out of Ireland by the British.  I've never gotten a single check from those protestant land-grabbing Brits.

When my ancestors came to this country we were berated and discriminated against.  We lost our language, our crafts, our culture.  Speaking German was not popular from around 1911 – 1945.  Now no one in my family speaks German.  We lost our cultural identity and have no compensation.

My great-grandfather was, by many accounts, a drunk.  He squandered the family farm such that his children inherited nothing.  As a consequence I did not inherit nay of the 2000 acres of farm land now valued at $6500 an acre.  I want reparations from the alcohol industry.

Now I do realize that no one alive is responsible for these transgressions.  I know that they can never really be made right.  And I have been told and understand that by bringing it up and holding this grudge with the aforementioned knowledge that I am really just making the situation worse.  But because my people (and by "my" people I mean people that I may be distantly related to but share little or no cultural relevance with) were screwed over I want mine!
- - - -

I know this isn't the same and it isn’t my intention to make light.  But you know the general concept is the same.  There was a war over land in the “new world” and the deck was stacked.  Native Americans lost and in many instances made treaties and were later flat out screwed over.  Unfortunately that story has been written throughout the entire world… and in fact is probably how a given tribe came to hold the land they were later screwed out of.  It wasn’t right.  It still isn’t.

However, there is not anything that can or will be done to make it right.  The people to punish for this transgression are as dead as the Prussians that kicked my ancestors out of Bavaria.  Admit we screwed up. Honor the treaties that we still have available.  Make things right that we are able to (tribes are still owed money under various treaties that has never been paid).  Then honor the tribal heritage and their identity and lets move on.




Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: carltonplace on February 16, 2012, 03:53:22 pm
can't they just set aside some slot machines to fund this? I've seen slot machines finance some pretty nice hotels.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Oil Capital on February 16, 2012, 05:21:57 pm
If we are calling for reparations...

My ancestors are from Bavaria, we were raped and pillaged by Rome.  Then raided by the damn Belgians, and French before being pillaged by the Kaiser and sucked into Prussia (and later Germany).   In the end my family was forced to abandon our land and flee to America.  I want my money from the Belgians, Frogs, and Germans. Especially those damn industrious Germans.

My grandfather lost brothers to the Japanese in WWII... I've never seen a damn dime for that loss.

My wife is Irish, her grandparents were forced out of Ireland by the British.  I've never gotten a single check from those protestant land-grabbing Brits.

When my ancestors came to this country we were berated and discriminated against.  We lost our language, our crafts, our culture.  Speaking German was not popular from around 1911 – 1945.  Now no one in my family speaks German.  We lost our cultural identity and have no compensation.

My great-grandfather was, by many accounts, a drunk.  He squandered the family farm such that his children inherited nothing.  As a consequence I did not inherit nay of the 2000 acres of farm land now valued at $6500 an acre.  I want reparations from the alcohol industry.

Now I do realize that no one alive is responsible for these transgressions.  I know that they can never really be made right.  And I have been told and understand that by bringing it up and holding this grudge with the aforementioned knowledge that I am really just making the situation worse.  But because my people (and by "my" people I mean people that I may be distantly related to but share little or no cultural relevance with) were screwed over I want mine!
- - - -

I know this isn't the same and it isn’t my intention to make light.  But you know the general concept is the same.  There was a war over land in the “new world” and the deck was stacked.  Native Americans lost and in many instances made treaties and were later flat out screwed over.  Unfortunately that story has been written throughout the entire world… and in fact is probably how a given tribe came to hold the land they were later screwed out of.  It wasn’t right.  It still isn’t.

However, there is not anything that can or will be done to make it right.  The people to punish for this transgression are as dead as the Prussians that kicked my ancestors out of Bavaria.  Admit we screwed up. Honor the treaties that we still have available.  Make things right that we are able to (tribes are still owed money under various treaties that has never been paid).  Then honor the tribal heritage and their identity and lets move on.




Best.  Post.  Ever. 


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: shadows on February 16, 2012, 08:37:22 pm
So, just blurt it out Shadows. "WE AIN'T HELPIN' NO STINKIN' WHITEYS EVEN IF IT MEANS OUR HISTORY IS KEPT TO OURSELVES!"
.

The natives were here thousands of years before the WHITEYS appeared who thought they were gods.  The whiteys set a path to genocide the entire native population even placing a bounty on their heads.  There is no reason we should build a museum that might display this abuse.     


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on February 16, 2012, 09:00:50 pm
To bad for you. You rob others of an understanding of your hatred. I suppose you also don't want to build a museum for the tribes your ancestors annihilated along the way. Good call. No use bringing up the fact that your ancestors were just as human as mine and subject to the same failures. Had technology benefited your progenitors you'd be building the museum.

I felt a deep sense of sorrow, insight and compassion when I visited a Native American museum in Arizona back in the 80's. It was also a great moment for my little boys. We were shocked to see photos of Indian families that had lived in the area and were treated so badly. It changed my view of history and provided a chance to make an impact on my boys as to how blind racism works and its results.

Good thing we don't have support for one here, eh?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2012, 09:46:47 pm
The natives were here thousands of years before the WHITEYS appeared who thought they were gods.  The whiteys set a path to genocide the entire native population even placing a bounty on their heads.  There is no reason we should build a museum that might display this abuse.     

Carefull, Recyclemichael hates the term "whitey".

Aside from that, I don't think this museum aims to purport abuses.  This museum is one of the worst examples of a foobared up pork project as there has ever been in Oklahoma aside from our overly expansive prison and university systems.  There are plenty of prominent museums already scattered about Oklahoma which acknowledge and document the atrocities put upon the Native Americans, aside from millions of volumes of books and articles which document this.

Cannon_fodder makes a great point: at some point in our own tribal histories, probably every human being's blood line was set upon by conquerers and forced to move with no reparations.  Many came to this country and endured years of discrimination and epithets as well.

Again, at what point to "reparations" become extortion, Shadows?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2012, 09:49:00 pm
can't they just set aside some slot machines to fund this? I've seen slot machines finance some pretty nice hotels.

Give 'em a bunch of paddle balls...

(http://unaffiliatedcritic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Korman-Brooks-and-Robyn-Hilton.jpg)


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Hoss on February 16, 2012, 09:56:27 pm
Give 'em a bunch of paddle balls...

(http://unaffiliatedcritic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Korman-Brooks-and-Robyn-Hilton.jpg)

It's either Marshalls, or a reference to Blazing Saddles.  Nicely done!

Now, get both in, and remain in context, and you'll be 'en fuego'.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: shadows on February 16, 2012, 09:58:05 pm
To bad for you. You rob others of an understanding of your hatred.
Good thing we don't have support for one here, eh?

From under the trees I watch a fellow name Thomas as he instructed the Native Americans on the shaping of stones on a long bench, to build a museum.   He said that this would be a monument to the Native Americans.  It and the artifacts he had gathered would be open for public display, free of an admission charge, to show the Natives were not savages but were highly skilled workmen.  Only Native Americans would be allowed to work constructing the building. He said that oil royalties of his would be used to maintain the monument for this group.

Ever thing he planned has been overwritten by the bureaucracy and trampled into the dirt by dislodging it from it intended place in history.  It is easy to see why the tribes have little interest in building a museum any where in their native country.......


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 16, 2012, 11:38:17 pm
From under the trees I watch a fellow name Thomas as he instructed the Native Americans on the shaping of stones on a long bench, to build a museum.   He said that this would be a monument to the Native Americans.  It and the artifacts he had gathered would be open for public display, free of an admission charge, to show the Natives were not savages but were highly skilled workmen.  Only Native Americans would be allowed to work constructing the building. He said that oil royalties of his would be used to maintain the monument for this group.

Ever thing he planned has been overwritten by the bureaucracy and trampled into the dirt by dislodging it from it intended place in history.  It is easy to see why the tribes have little interest in building a museum any where in their native country.......

Gilcrease's words were spoken in a time of different economic reality.  Without the city and TU, chances are Gilcrease would have vanished from the landscape sometime back or become yet another casino.



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: sgrizzle on February 17, 2012, 07:20:00 am
Klingon raised by Russians.

Belarussians, and it's spelled Worf


I mean.. uh... YOU NERDS!


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 17, 2012, 10:47:44 am
Belarussians, and it's spelled Worf


I mean.. uh... YOU NERDS!

Belorussians. 

Show these guys what you have in your office.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: DTowner on February 17, 2012, 03:22:52 pm
Tulsa World editorial today:

Native American
Center lacks private fundingBy World's Editorial Writers
Published: 2/17/2012  2:27 AM
Last Modified: 2/17/2012  3:23 AM


The Legislature has been bombarded with state bond issue requests - about $1 billion worth - from various agencies. At the top of the list is the proposed $140 million in state borrowing to repair the crumbling state Capitol.

Another is a request for another $40 million from the state for the half-completed American Indian Cultural Center, located in Oklahoma City. Lawmakers should think hard and long before agreeing to that deal.

The cultural center already has received a total of $67.4 million from three state bond issues. In addition, the Legislature has appropriated $1.5 million a year to run the Native American Cultural and Educational Authority, which was created in 1994 to get the cultural center done. About $1 million a year of that has gone for staff salaries and benefits.

The authority has raised very little in private funds to help support the project.

Blake Wade, newly hired as the part-time head of the authority, and who has been connected with successful projects including the construction of the state Capitol dome, says that with another $40 million in hand the authority will raise $40 in private money.

Here's a better idea: The authority should raise $40 million from private donors first, and then ask for a similar amount in taxpayer-paid bond funds.

The fact is that the cultural center has received little support in the form of cash dollars from the private sector in the Oklahoma City area or from the tribes in central and western Oklahoma.

Otherwise this project, if it is ever completed, will be paid for entirely by the taxpayers of Oklahoma. 

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=61&articleid=20120217_61_A16_TheLeg974606


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Admin on February 17, 2012, 04:31:38 pm
Belorussians. 

Show these guys what you have in your office.

No


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 17, 2012, 04:33:27 pm
I saw that the weight room for the people is going to happen in the capital building.

I'm a little blown away they have a smoking room in the state capital.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 17, 2012, 04:35:15 pm
I saw that the weight room for the people is going to happen in the capital building.

I'm a little blown away they have a smoking room in the state capital.

They won't after the renovation is my understanding.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 17, 2012, 04:41:29 pm
They won't after the renovation is my understanding.

The smoke room will be the "weight room for the people" or whatever they'll call the weight room.

Probably the "Wait, I can't smoke in here? weight room for the people".


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 20, 2012, 05:27:18 pm
If we are calling for reparations...

My wife is Irish, her grandparents were forced out of Ireland by the British.  I've never gotten a single check from those protestant land-grabbing Brits.


I know this isn't the same and it isn’t my intention to make light.  But you know the general concept is the same.  There was a war over land in the “new world” and the deck was stacked.  Native Americans lost and in many instances made treaties and were later flat out screwed over.  Unfortunately that story has been written throughout the entire world… and in fact is probably how a given tribe came to hold the land they were later screwed out of.  It wasn’t right.  It still isn’t.

However, there is not anything that can or will be done to make it right.  The people to punish for this transgression are as dead as the Prussians that kicked my ancestors out of Bavaria.  Admit we screwed up. Honor the treaties that we still have available.  Make things right that we are able to (tribes are still owed money under various treaties that has never been paid).  Then honor the tribal heritage and their identity and lets move on.




All true.  Don't forget the Palestinians treated the same way by the Israeli's.  And so on and on....a seemingly infinite parade of injustice.

Couldn't find a comprehensive statement of total value of all US property, but did find a statement that residential is estimated at $23 trillion.  Commercial must be pretty close to that, considering the how much more incrementally per foot the stuff costs (bldg plus land).  And the Federal lands are pretty big.  Just round it off to 30 trillion or so to keep it conservative.  We would still have a long way to go to make those reparations.


Let me first state that I don't like casino's very much and don't go to them, but I see them as an extremely viable way for the tribes to have an economic activity that benefits them quite a bit.  It's just a shame they had to partner up with the mafia and that so many of their customers are in great part from the lower economic strata - not at all like the TV commercials would have you believe.





Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: shadows on February 21, 2012, 02:05:05 pm
To the victor go the spoils.  Promises are made to be broken.  The Native American as the vanquished saw both of his land then his promised lands divided into small plots, his right of self governing taken away from him and in the final ending is required to submit to federal, state and city laws as well as his own. 
We have fought three wars to install our selected groups at a horrible cost of lives and money. 
We have given away the local museum that was dedicated to him as being a child of nature. We have set a precedent in personally destroying leaders of other nations.  Heaven help us the day when we become the vanquished.
And now Whitey’s are gripping because some in their group want to save artifacts that if unattended will disappear in time.

   


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Hoss on February 21, 2012, 02:28:55 pm
To the victor go the spoils.  Promises are made to be broken.  The Native American as the vanquished saw both of his land then his promised lands divided into small plots, his right of self governing taken away from him and in the final ending is required to submit to federal, state and city laws as well as his own. 
We have fought three wars to install our selected groups at a horrible cost of lives and money. 
We have given away the local museum that was dedicated to him as being a child of nature. We have set a precedent in personally destroying leaders of other nations.  Heaven help us the day when we become the vanquished.
And now Whitey’s are gripping because some in their group want to save artifacts that if unattended will disappear in time.

   


Well, I'll say this much.  At least you're consistent...


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 21, 2012, 03:08:08 pm
Well, I'll say this much.  At least you're consistent...

Like chaos theory


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: shadows on February 21, 2012, 05:20:40 pm
The Chaos Theory exits when the limitations of the mind are limited in its comprehension of the parameters of space.  Basically it is of the abstract revelation exploiting the unsuspecting of the daily changes in Nature as defined by Freud.  We extend the unexplained gravity attraction to include visions and perceptions so that sometime in the foreseeable future liken to the wild goose return to the nest.  The fundamentals instilled in man including greed has been with this hairless ape since evolution became more than just a theory.   So be it.

         


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 21, 2012, 05:29:35 pm
The Chaos Theory exits when the limitations of the mind are limited in its comprehension of the parameters of space.  Basically it is of the abstract revelation exploiting the unsuspecting of the daily changes in Nature as defined by Freud.  We extend the unexplained gravity attraction to include visions and perceptions so that sometime in the foreseeable future liken to the wild goose return to the nest.  The fundamentals instilled in man including greed has been with this hairless ape since evolution became more than just a theory.   So be it.


Dogs and cats, living together.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on February 21, 2012, 05:46:03 pm
There used to be a theory. Something like, if you put a 1000 chimps in a room with typewriters eventually they will produce Shakespeare.

He's not quite there yet.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: shadows on February 21, 2012, 08:12:51 pm
Dogs and cats, living together.


The wolf and the lamb will lie together and lion will eat straw like the ox


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Red Arrow on February 21, 2012, 08:19:36 pm
The wolf and the lamb will lie together and lion will eat straw like the ox


But only if the straw is ox flavored.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: shadows on February 21, 2012, 08:41:41 pm
Spray cans will be available that will make the straw smell like fresh meet..


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Red Arrow on February 21, 2012, 08:53:32 pm
Spray cans will be available that will make the straw smell like fresh meet..

A new Fabreeze (sp?) fragrance?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: shadows on February 23, 2012, 09:06:48 pm
A new Fabreeze (sp?) fragrance?

Goofed again


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 23, 2012, 10:53:22 pm
Goofed again

Shadows, I appreciate you are in your 90's but we call that "FAIL!" these days.  Like this kid:

(http://lolpics.se/pics/18439.jpg)



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on October 18, 2012, 08:24:20 am
Audit Critical of Oklahoma American Indian Museum

http://kwgs.com/post/audit-critical-oklahoma-american-indian-museum (http://kwgs.com/post/audit-critical-oklahoma-american-indian-museum)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201210/Indian%20Museum.jpg)

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — An audit of the board overseeing a planned American Indian museum in Oklahoma City says both the board and the Legislature had "unrealistic expectations."

The audit released Wednesday says the board chose the most expensive proposal to build the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum — about $169 million — while having only $5 million in funding at the time. It also says lawmakers need to play a greater role in overseeing the project.

Governor Mary Fallin requested the audit and said in a statement that she believes many of the issues addressed are being corrected.

Museum director Blake Wade said he's glad the audit is behind him, that the board intends to meet the recommendations and that it's up to the Legislature to improve its oversight of the board.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on October 19, 2012, 02:17:31 pm
Tulsa World came out against more funding:

Quote
The burden of funding should no longer fall on the taxpayers of this state, who have already sunk $97 million into what looks to be a losing effort.

I'm assuming that means OKC will throw out the "Tulsa can't decide our fate".

How far along is the museum?  Has anyone been to the site?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on October 19, 2012, 07:04:35 pm
Spray cans will be available that will make the straw smell like fresh meet..


Is that gonna be anything like those cans of spray cheese you can get??  I love spray cheese!!  Oh...I think I need to go to Walmart now and get some.  And crackers!



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: JCnOwasso on October 23, 2012, 02:40:08 pm
Museum director Blake Wade said he's glad the audit is behind him, that the board intends to meet the recommendations and that it's up to the Legislature to improve its oversight of the board.

AKA... SUCKERS!!!! 

It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.  Screw the whole thing up and just say "sorry"...  Heck i am waiting for an Urkel type character to hop out and say "Did I do that?????"


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on January 16, 2013, 12:03:08 pm
Plan proposed for funding rest of OKC American Indian museum

http://okpolicy.org/in-the-know-first-personhood-bill-of-session-filed (http://okpolicy.org/in-the-know-first-personhood-bill-of-session-filed)

Quote
An Oklahoma City lawmaker is proposing two new options to fund completion of the state’s half-built American Indian Cultural Center and Museum, but opponents of the project – which has already cost the state $63 million – continue to question its future. Sen. Kyle Loveless, R-Oklahoma City, plans two bond issue proposals to fund the project’s completion. One proposal would authorize $40 million in bonds to match $40 million in pledged private funding. Alternatively, Loveless has a measure to authorize $32 million in bonds. That plan would come with instructions for fundraisers to come up with additional private money, he said.

This seems to be an opportunity for Tulsa's representatives to get bond money for Tulsa.  We might want to ask for our money first.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on January 16, 2013, 01:25:09 pm
Plan proposed for funding rest of OKC American Indian museum

http://okpolicy.org/in-the-know-first-personhood-bill-of-session-filed (http://okpolicy.org/in-the-know-first-personhood-bill-of-session-filed)

This seems to be an opportunity for Tulsa's representatives to get bond money for Tulsa.  We might want to ask for our money first.

Any time they offer a sirloin to Tulsa so OKC can have prime rib, I'm reminded of Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: TheArtist on January 16, 2013, 01:57:20 pm
  They are calling it the "states" American Indian Museum.  What a farce, be truthful about it and call it like it is, it's the OKC American Indian Museum.  And of course it's an OKC lawmaker proposing this new funding method cause none of us gives a rats arse enough about it to shunt more of our money to OKC to get this built.  Hows that State Capitol Building repair fund coming along?  How many hundreds of millions of dollars worth of money do they want for goodies "for the state" that aren't going to do anything with a net positive result for the rest of us?  


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: DTowner on January 16, 2013, 02:19:25 pm
Lucy and the football is a sad and true analogy.  The Indian Museum is such a debacle and has such a long list of broken promises and failures that it may have used up all the patience the Okla. legislature normally has for OKC projects.  I also wonder just how much political capitol OKC wants to use up on this disaster.

At some point Tulsa area legislators may need to support some additional state bond funding for this white elephant in order to get support for bond money for the Oklahoma Pop Museum (although it should be a lot less than $32 million).  Hopefully, if/when that time comes, our local legislators are smart enough not to fall for tried and true trick OKC a/k/a Lucy has played on Tulsa so many times of getting its $ this year and Tulsa getting its $ "next" year.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on January 16, 2013, 02:30:04 pm
Hopefully, if/when that time comes, our local legislators are smart enough not to fall for tried and true trick OKC a/k/a Lucy has played on Tulsa so many times of getting its $ this year and Tulsa getting its $ "next" year.

Those are some high hopes.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on January 16, 2013, 02:51:58 pm
Why don't they hit up the tribes for the needed completion money?  They have plenty of cash with casinos and their various industries.

Oh, wait, that's right, the tribes have expressed zero interest in this project in the first place!


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on January 16, 2013, 03:00:21 pm
Why don't they hit up the tribes for the needed completion money?  They have plenty of cash with casinos and their various industries.

Oh, wait, that's right, the tribes have expressed zero interest in this project in the first place!

I don't think they've got the best thoughts of American Indian history in Oklahoma.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Teatownclown on January 16, 2013, 04:57:20 pm
Why don't they hit up the tribes for the needed completion money?  They have plenty of cash with casinos and their various industries.

Oh, wait, that's right, the tribes have expressed zero interest in this project in the first place!

+1 Tonto,

Lone Ranger


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on January 17, 2013, 02:09:51 pm
  Hows that State Capitol Building repair fund coming along?  

Governor Fallin Embraces 'All Options' for Capitol Repairs

http://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/governor-fallin-embraces-all-options-capitol-repairs#.UPhYBUvcRG8.facebook (http://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/governor-fallin-embraces-all-options-capitol-repairs#.UPhYBUvcRG8.facebook)

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Gov. Mary Fallin wants legislators to find a way to pay for repairs to a crumbling Capitol building and says she supports "all options" for meeting the estimated $160 million price tag.

After touring the Capitol on Thursday with the state architect and building maintenance supervisors, Fallin said she's growing concerned about the health and safety of people who work in the building.

The state already has erected yellow barricades to prevent pedestrians from approaching the south side of the building, where large chunks of limestone have been falling from the building's facade.

A proposed $200 million bond issue to pay for building repairs was overwhelmingly shot down last year in the House, where conservative lawmakers have grown increasingly opposed to approving state-backed debt.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 19, 2013, 09:43:24 am
Oklahoma measure transferring American Indian center advances

An Oklahoma Senate committee passed a bill Monday that would abolish the agency overseeing the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum, and place the center under the Oklahoma Historical Society.
 
http://newsok.com/article/3756790 (http://newsok.com/article/3756790)

(http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-7c18579df78bc1c80de388aaa11c3ae0.jpg)

Quote
A state Senate committee approved a measure Monday that would place the agency that is overseeing the half-built American Indian Cultural Center and Museum in downtown Oklahoma City under the Oklahoma Historical Society.

Sen. Greg Treat, author of Senate Bill 511, said his measure calls for the elimination of the Native American Cultural and Educational Authority. The fate of the agency's 11 employees would be up to the Historical Society, he said.

The Historical Society doesn't want the Indian cultural center, said Treat, R-Oklahoma City. Treat, chairman of the Senate General Government Committee, asked committee members to vote for the measure to keep it alive with the hope he could find a state agency willing to take the authority.

The committee voted 6-2 to pass the measure, which now goes to the full Senate.

Blake Wade, executive director of the authority, had no comment about the committee's vote.

Contacted later, Bob Blackburn, executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society, said his agency, which collects, preserves and shares artifacts, has a different role than a cultural center, which looks at people and the way they lived.

Sen. Kyle Loveless, R-Oklahoma City, said he voted against the bill because the state could stand to lose $40 million in private pledges to help complete the center if it is placed under a different agency.
A bill authorizing a $40 million bond issue for the center failed by one vote last year in the Senate.

Treat said he is concerned by the findings of a state audit last year that criticized the authority for choosing highest-cost options when funding wasn't secure. Treat filed a bill last year to put the center under the state Tourism and Recreation Department; it passed the Senate but failed in the House of Representatives.

The American Indian Cultural Center and Museum project has benefited from three previous state bond issues totaling $63 million, as well as $14.5 million in federal funding and $4.9 million and 250 acres of land from Oklahoma City.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: patric on February 19, 2013, 10:11:27 am
(http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-7c18579df78bc1c80de388aaa11c3ae0.jpg)

Oh, so that's where they rebuilt Zingo.                                                   ;)


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: swake on February 19, 2013, 11:38:56 am
Oklahoma measure transferring American Indian center advances

An Oklahoma Senate committee passed a bill Monday that would abolish the agency overseeing the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum, and place the center under the Oklahoma Historical Society.
 
http://newsok.com/article/3756790 (http://newsok.com/article/3756790)

(http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-7c18579df78bc1c80de388aaa11c3ae0.jpg)


The >25 parking spaces should tell you about the crowds they are really anticipating. I cannot believe that this metal clad building and hill cost more than $100 million and needs at least another $80 million.

And my god Oklahoma City is an ugly, ugly place.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on February 19, 2013, 12:23:23 pm
The >25 parking spaces should tell you about the crowds they are really anticipating. I cannot believe that this metal clad building and hill cost more than $100 million and needs at least another $80 million.

And my god Oklahoma City is an ugly, ugly place.

Some legislator's brother-in-law has/is made/making a mint off this boondoggle.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Red Arrow on February 19, 2013, 12:48:39 pm
Some legislator's brother-in-law has/is made/making a mint off this boondoggle.

It might be a sister-in-law.
 
 ;D


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 19, 2013, 12:53:32 pm
They started out to build another "Crashship" like we have in Tulsa (BOK Center).  Got confused on where all the pieces went, so then just got up and went away leaving it scattered all over the floor!


Swake;  yep, kind of ugly from a distance.  But they have some nice things in the middle of that.  Myriad Garden is fantastic!!  Many good museums.  A couple of train items - one local rides, one to Ft Worth.  Just no texture or interest to the land, and there's just not a lot you can do to dress up a flat plate like that area is.




Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: DTowner on February 19, 2013, 04:06:29 pm
They started out to build another "Crashship" like we have in Tulsa (BOK Center).  Got confused on where all the pieces went, so then just got up and went away leaving it scattered all over the floor!

It does look like a crash site, complete with a crater and scattered debris field.

But at least they have water in their river....

In all seriousness, based on the audit findings and state and federal funds involved, those board members should be facing a criminal investigation.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on February 19, 2013, 09:33:24 pm
It does look like a crash site, complete with a crater and scattered debris field.

But at least they have water in their river....

In all seriousness, based on the audit findings and state and federal funds involved, those board members should be facing a criminal investigation.


That river has been bone dry for several months.  Up past the I-35 bridge (just beyond the museum site).  They are doing some kind of digging and construction just this side of the bridge on the river bottom.  We have more water in the Arkansas right now....amazingly.





Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on February 21, 2014, 12:19:50 pm
Indian Museum Plan Gets Frosty Reception in House

http://kwgs.com/post/indian-museum-plan-gets-frosty-reception-house (http://kwgs.com/post/indian-museum-plan-gets-frosty-reception-house)

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — A Senate-backed plan to tap $40 million from the state's unclaimed property fund to help complete a Native American museum in Oklahoma City is getting a frosty reception from GOP leaders in the Oklahoma House.

Newly elected House Speaker Jeff Hickman said Thursday that the House Republicans' initial reaction to the proposal "was not overwhelming."

A Senate committee this week approved a bill to use the $40 million to match another $40 million in private donations that would be used to finish the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum along the banks of the Oklahoma River.

The $170 million museum remains mothballed after construction funds ran out.

Hickman says there is more support among House Republicans for a $160 million proposal to refurbish the state Capitol.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on March 19, 2014, 07:57:17 am
Oklahoma Lawmakers Tour Unfinished Indian Museum

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201206/River_View.jpg)

http://kwgs.com/post/oklahoma-lawmakers-tour-unfinished-indian-museum (http://kwgs.com/post/oklahoma-lawmakers-tour-unfinished-indian-museum)

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Oklahoma lawmakers have toured the unfinished American Indian Cultural Center & Museum in Oklahoma City as administrators urge passage of legislation to provide funding to complete the structure.

More than a dozen members of the House and Senate walked through the incomplete building Tuesday as museum director Blake Wade urged passage of the $40 million funding measure.

The Senate-passed bill would take the money from the state's Unclaimed Property Fund to help complete the museum. The money would be matched with funds from Oklahoma's 39 federally recognized tribes, the city of Oklahoma City and private and corporate donors.

The bill is pending in the House and its author, Republican Rep. Dave Dank of Oklahoma City, says passage is not assured and may depend on lawmakers who belong to Oklahoma-based tribes.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on March 19, 2014, 08:20:53 am
I would rather see the money go to refurbishing the capitol. Can we put the unfinished building up for sale and recoup some of the graft?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: SXSW on March 19, 2014, 01:35:36 pm
I still think this is a really interesting project/design and hope it gets finished.  Something like this would've been awesome in Tulsa on the river across from downtown but if it sits unfinished I'm glad it's not.  From a Native American history perspective this belongs more in Tulsa, in what was a Creek settlement in the remnants of Indian Territory, than OKC which got its start during the Land Run.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on March 19, 2014, 02:07:54 pm
I still think this is a really interesting project/design and hope it gets finished.  Something like this would've been awesome in Tulsa on the river across from downtown but if it sits unfinished I'm glad it's not.  From a Native American history perspective this belongs more in Tulsa, in what was a Creek settlement in the remnants of Indian Territory, than OKC which got its start during the Land Run.

Go back to the first page on this.  According to a few posters, the tribes aren’t even very interested in the center.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: nathanm on March 22, 2014, 01:19:31 pm
From a Native American history perspective this belongs more in Tulsa, in what was a Creek settlement in the remnants of Indian Territory, than OKC which got its start during the Land Run.

What, and have more state money supporting Tulsa's economy? Hell no! Only OKC deserves to grow on the back of all of the state's taxpayers.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on April 29, 2014, 09:02:50 am
Oklahoma Indian Museum Supporters Remain Hopeful

http://kwgs.com/post/oklahoma-indian-museum-supporters-remain-hopeful (http://kwgs.com/post/oklahoma-indian-museum-supporters-remain-hopeful)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/201210/Indian_Museum.jpg)

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Supporters of a plan to spend $40 million in state money to help complete a Native American museum in Oklahoma City say they're trying to come up with a new way to fund the project after the original proposal stalled before a House deadline.

Oklahoma City Republican Rep. David Dank said Monday one new idea being discussed is a three-year deal for $15 million next year, followed by $15 million in Fiscal Year 2016 and $10 million in 2017.

The Senate earlier this session passed a bill to tap $40 million from the state's Unclaimed Property Fund to match another $40 million in non-state funds to complete the project.

But supporters couldn't get the 51 Republican votes House Speaker Jeff Hickman said he wants for the proposal.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on April 29, 2014, 10:00:36 am
A little reality check here. The dang building is practically finished and is languishing along their river(cough). Unless we want the state to suffer the same embarrassment that Tulsa endured with an empty, yet uniquely designed, Eastland Mall for decades, we just need to finish the dang thing, lick our wounds and vow, "never again".

Legislators.......find the money and get it paid for or sell it off to another commercial venture....maybe a casino or something that the Native Americans can really identify with.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on April 29, 2014, 10:18:00 am
A little reality check here. The dang building is practically finished and is languishing along their river(cough). Unless we want the state to suffer the same embarrassment that Tulsa endured with an empty, yet uniquely designed, Eastland Mall for decades, we just need to finish the dang thing, lick our wounds and vow, "never again".

Legislators.......find the money and get it paid for or sell it off to another commercial venture....maybe a casino or something that the Native Americans can really identify with.

How many “never agains” does that make, now?  And really, not an accurate comparison.  Eastland was a private enterprise which wasn’t languishing waiting for taxpayers to pick up the tab.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on April 29, 2014, 10:19:40 am
Tons. We keep voting in the same type people, enduring the same authority appointments and ignoring the same criminal behavior. Its our culture I guess.

Private or public the embarrassment is the same. It displays a lack of competence and planning.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on April 29, 2014, 10:23:53 am
It displays a lack of competence and planning.

..."where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain"


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: sgrizzle on April 29, 2014, 10:49:51 am
A little reality check here. The dang building is practically finished and is languishing along their river(cough). Unless we want the state to suffer the same embarrassment that Tulsa endured with an empty, yet uniquely designed, Eastland Mall for decades, we just need to finish the dang thing, lick our wounds and vow, "never again".

Legislators.......find the money and get it paid for or sell it off to another commercial venture....maybe a casino or something that the Native Americans can really identify with.

They are asking for almost as much money as it was supposed to cost to build the thing in the first place, and this is their (second?) request to raise the budget.

Not to mention they $40M is contingent on getting another $40M from somewhere else to finish, so we can approve the $40 and be back here next year asking for the other $40.



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on April 29, 2014, 11:14:47 am
They are asking for almost as much money as it was supposed to cost to build the thing in the first place, and this is their (second?) request to raise the budget.

Not to mention they $40M is contingent on getting another $40M from somewhere else to finish, so we can approve the $40 and be back here next year asking for the other $40.



"And the wavin' wheat can sure smell sweet, When the wind comes right behind the raaaaain"


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on April 29, 2014, 11:26:18 am
During the reign of Tammany Hall in NY, the graft was rampant and accepted as borough business. When asked why it was tolerated, a local responded, "There's good graft and bad graft. Good graft is when you pay your representative to put a sidewalk in front of your business. Bad graft is when he doesn't do it."

They ain't doin' it. Seriously, if they can't finish it for $40, we should put it on the market and recoup our losses. Is that possible?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on April 29, 2014, 12:20:55 pm
Tons. We keep voting in the same type people, enduring the same authority appointments and ignoring the same criminal behavior. Its our culture I guess.

Private or public the embarrassment is the same. It displays a lack of competence and planning.

Your memory of projected growth patterns from that era would be far better than mine.  But, just as an interesting side-bar and nothing more, I was told by someone who had brokerage rights to Eastland when it was still vacant that when planning started on Eastland, projected growth for the city was to the east.  Instead, it shifted south at that time and they could not get a significant number of anchor tenants to sign on or either they bailed.  Instead, they went with Woodland Hills Mall which was in preliminary planning phases at the time and that was what shuttered construction on Eastland for roughly 14 or 15 years.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Hoss on April 29, 2014, 02:02:06 pm
Your memory of projected growth patterns from that era would be far better than mine.  But, just as an interesting side-bar and nothing more, I was told by someone who had brokerage rights to Eastland when it was still vacant that when planning started on Eastland, projected growth for the city was to the east.  Instead, it shifted south at that time and they could not get a significant number of anchor tenants to sign on or either they bailed.  Instead, they went with Woodland Hills Mall which was in preliminary planning phases at the time and that was what shuttered construction on Eastland for roughly 14 or 15 years.

Which is why 244 was 8-laned, instead of the BA.  I think had they known that back when the Broken Arrow was being built, they would have put 8 lanes on her.

I remember pretty vividly seeing that out in the middle of nowhere though, when my Dad would take my brother and I out flying RC planes at the Glue Dobber field on 41st/145th East Ave.  We'd pass by it every other Saturday.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on April 29, 2014, 02:19:40 pm
Which is why 244 was 8-laned, instead of the BA.  I think had they known that back when the Broken Arrow was being built, they would have put 8 lanes on her.

I remember pretty vividly seeing that out in the middle of nowhere though, when my Dad would take my brother and I out flying RC planes at the Glue Dobber field on 41st/145th East Ave.  We'd pass by it every other Saturday.

I had friends who lived out that way in the early ’80’s.  It was weird, it was almost as if Tulsa just stopped right there.  Well it sorta did.  That’s all call center now, isn’t it?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 29, 2014, 02:47:43 pm
They were always moving south and east.  Eastland was a pretty feeble attempt to try to balance that.  The big thing they ignored was the fact that John Thomas (Water Commissioner) was preventing any increase in water prices so there was no money for upkeep to the existing system, let alone putting in new infrastructure through the rock zone out east. 

And the biggest part of that was the sewer system to support that new growth - you can dig a narrower ditch through rock for water than sewer.  And you either have to pump that sh$t somewhere or build a plant out there.  Water plant eventually was built, but never a sewer plant.




Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on April 30, 2014, 09:07:19 am
Besides all the other problems detailed, I seem to remember an economic downtown around that time as well (early 80's?) and a disastrous tornado that wrecked a lot of east Tulsa. The combination of bad economy, shrinking support for the area and the explosion of development in and towards Broken Arrow spelled its demise. There were folks at the time who thought it was folly. Lots of hubris in the builder/developer community.

But back to the current folly. Can this "Okie style Big Dig" be salvaged by selling it off? It would make someone a nicely located business and the state could recoup some of its losses as well as new taxes.



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Snowman on April 30, 2014, 09:19:50 am
Besides all the other problems detailed, I seem to remember an economic downtown around that time as well (early 80's?) and a disastrous tornado that wrecked a lot of east Tulsa. The combination of bad economy, shrinking support for the area and the explosion of development in and towards Broken Arrow spelled its demise. There were folks at the time who thought it was folly. Lots of hubris in the builder/developer community.

But back to the current folly. Can this "Okie style Big Dig" be salvaged by selling it off? It would make someone a nicely located business and the state could recoup some of its losses as well as new taxes.

First the problem with one off highly tailored buildings is they tend to only suit the client they are for, so I doubt it will be that conducive to locating a business there.  Second what business wants to get into a potential PR nightmare of being considered obstructing the completion of a museum to Native Americans (even if the project had was struggling).


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: AquaMan on April 30, 2014, 09:31:02 am
Oklahoma worried about PR??? If the Native American community was strongly supportive of the museum it would already be a done deal.

There have been examples of re-purposed buildings and I'm sure the state could help facilitate the process with some tax incentives. I just wish for once we would start thinking and acting like businessmen instead of talking like them. We've reached the point with this museum that its original sins cannot be overcome. Good businessmen know when to cut their losses. Bad businessmen like the guy who owned the Tulsa Club downtown just let them waste away. Government tends to board up buildings, pay upkeep and hope no one notices till it comes up for sale as surplus a decade later.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on April 30, 2014, 09:45:05 am


But back to the current folly. Can this "Okie style Big Dig" be salvaged by selling it off? It would make someone a nicely located business and the state could recoup some of its losses as well as new taxes.



Not a chance, makes entirely too much sense for the crew in OKC to comprehend.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: sgrizzle on April 30, 2014, 12:37:38 pm
Christina Fallin could host a fundraiser.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Hoss on April 30, 2014, 03:13:26 pm
Christina Fallin could host a fundraiser.

All hail the Pink Pony!


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on May 01, 2014, 08:13:51 am
All hail the Pink Pony!

New statue for the state capital?



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on May 01, 2014, 08:29:24 am
All hail the Pink Pony!

Is that anything like “riding the pink pony”?  :o


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on May 16, 2014, 11:19:25 am
Plan to Complete Indian Museum Languishing

http://kwgs.com/post/plan-complete-indian-museum-languishing (http://kwgs.com/post/plan-complete-indian-museum-languishing)

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Gov. Mary Fallin's chief budget negotiator says a plan to spend $40 million to complete an unfinished Indian museum near downtown Oklahoma City is apparently dead for this session.

Secretary of Finance Preston Doerflinger said Friday the proposal "is dead for now."

The Senate passed a bill to take $40 million from the state's Unclaimed Property Fund to match another $40 million in pledges to complete the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum. But many Republican members in the House bitterly opposed the project, and new House Speaker Jeff Hickman said he wouldn't present the bill on the floor until at least 51 of the House's 72 Republicans supported it.

Lawmakers must adjourn by May 30.

More than $95 million already has been spent on the unfinished project.



Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 11:39:17 am
Plan to Complete Indian Museum Languishing

http://kwgs.com/post/plan-complete-indian-museum-languishing (http://kwgs.com/post/plan-complete-indian-museum-languishing)


$150 million dollar complex. $2,000 per sq/ft.

Nice contract for Flintco and Manhattan.

10 times the average PSF commercial rate. . .for a building in NY.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on May 16, 2014, 03:15:36 pm
$150 million dollar complex. $2,000 per sq/ft.

Nice contract for Flintco and Manhattan.

10 times the average PSF commercial rate. . .for a building in NY.

There’s an idea, let Flintco and Manhattan donate the remaining $80 million.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Gaspar on May 16, 2014, 03:20:38 pm
There’s an idea, let Flintco and Manhattan donate the remaining $80 million.

Interesting.  Considering that the structure most likely costs under $250/sf to build out, they would still make a massive profit.

You're a genius super-genius.
(http://drawception.com/pub/panels/2012/5-13/RTm6K3pz1T-4.png)


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Radvlad on May 26, 2014, 11:30:53 am
How about we let the Cherokees pay for the remaining balance? The museum is for them. They have plenty of money (casinos). They are proud of their past aren't they?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Hoss on May 26, 2014, 12:16:27 pm
How about we let the Cherokees pay for the remaining balance? The museum is for them. They have plenty of money (casinos). They are proud of their past aren't they?

Probably let the goverment do it.  I mean it's the least we can do given that whole Trail of Tears thing..right?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Radvlad on May 26, 2014, 12:49:31 pm
Hoss you are right. I mean after all, we owe them right?  ;D


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: sgrizzle on May 26, 2014, 01:13:04 pm
How about we let the Cherokees pay for the remaining balance? The museum is for them. They have plenty of money (casinos). They are proud of their past aren't they?

The tribes have their own museums and have little/no interest in this one.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2014, 09:24:27 pm
Hoss you are right. I mean after all, we owe them right?  ;D


They are showing the initiative so strongly embraced by American culture and running a massively successful business enterprise.  That has been wildly successful at getting at least some form of "paybacks" from the white people!  And has benefited the Native Americans, too....  win, win!!





Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on July 30, 2015, 11:26:33 am
Museum a LONG Way from Being Finished

(http://publicradiotulsa.org/sites/kwgs/files/styles/large/public/201206/River_View.jpg)

Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) _ Officials estimate that construction on the planned American Indian Cultural Center and Museum in Oklahoma City is still at least two years away from being finished. 
 An Oklahoma City Council committee on Tuesday also concluded that another year will be needed to install Smithsonian Institution-quality exhibits.
 
 City Manager Jim Couch says $90 million of the original $170 million project budget already has been spent, leaving an $80 million gap. The state has offered to loan $25 million to the city; private interest groups have pledged $31 million; and City Hall has agreed to front $9 million. 

 The Journal Record reports that city officials are trying to figure out how to cover the remaining $15 million to complete the center.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: sgrizzle on July 31, 2015, 09:13:55 pm
Make a great outlet mall.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on August 03, 2015, 08:49:24 am
Make a great outlet mall.

BOOM!

I think I’ve got David Simon’s cell phone number somewhere...


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: DTowner on August 04, 2015, 04:15:20 pm
The supporters of this boondoggle will be back before the legislature next session asking for more money to fill the funding “gap.”  It never seems to occur to them they should design/redesign the museum to fit the money they have.  Actually it does, but they prefer to play a game of financial chicken with the State of Oklahoma, daring it to pull the plug and “waste” the $100+ million Oklahoma has already committed to this project.  The decision makers on this project should be going to jail for financial fraud, not running a museum.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Townsend on August 28, 2017, 11:37:51 am
Vote Set on Completing American Indian Museum in Oklahoma City

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/vote-set-completing-american-indian-museum-oklahoma-city (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/vote-set-completing-american-indian-museum-oklahoma-city)

Quote
The Oklahoma City Council is to vote on agreements to complete building the American Indian Cultural Center and Museum.

The vote is Tuesday on proposals to finish the project with the Chickasaw Nation. Plans call for an April 1, 2021, opening.

The museum began as a state project and about $90 million was spent from 2006 until 2012, when it ran out of money.

An estimated $65 million or more is needed to complete it, with the state providing $25 million, the city $9 million and tribal and private donations to provide the remainder. The Chickasaw Nation is to cover any operating deficits for the first seven years after the museum opens.

The museum is at the junction of Interstates 40 and 35 near downtown Oklahoma City.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: Conan71 on August 28, 2017, 03:13:28 pm
Vote Set on Completing American Indian Museum in Oklahoma City

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/vote-set-completing-american-indian-museum-oklahoma-city (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/vote-set-completing-american-indian-museum-oklahoma-city)


Why don’t they bulldoze this oedipus already or turn it into a homeless shelter?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: sgrizzle on August 28, 2017, 06:22:05 pm
Why is the state giving another $25M? Budget surplus?


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: swake on August 28, 2017, 06:30:13 pm
Vote Set on Completing American Indian Museum in Oklahoma City

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/vote-set-completing-american-indian-museum-oklahoma-city (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/vote-set-completing-american-indian-museum-oklahoma-city)


I dig the fact they have moved off the idea that another $65 million will fur sur finish this damn thing. Now it's "$65 million, or more"

And it's not going to be finished until 2021! It broke ground in 2006!

I predict another hat in hand request coming to the state in 2019.


Title: Re: Senator Says Enough to OKC American Indian Museum Funding Requests
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 29, 2017, 09:12:58 am
Finally, the latest batch of "participants" have figured out a way to somehow get their palms greased, so the money can start to flow again !!


Sign over the title to me.  Give me $40 million.  Don't obstruct me with false conditions designed to create a kickback.   I guarantee you that it will be open for business by end of 2019.  Probably earlier.

Win, win.   I get the museum I have always wanted, and the people of Oklahoma save WAY over $25 million!!