The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Plans are underway to turn the old Hartford Building in the Blue Dome area, formerly occupied by the City of Tulsa, into a community medical center. No rendering or firm plans are yet available. You can read the story unfold below:

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111 S. Greenwood. Just east of the Blue Dome district.

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/our-city/meeting-agendas/display.aspx?ID=0000B942

Anybody know anything?

There have been an inordinant amount of fire trucks at the building for the last few weeks.  Is TFD using it for drills?

I do know that that Hartford building is at the northern end of the proposed East Village Park that Land Legacy is working on. At the other end is the new proposed All Souls Unitarian Church. Halfway down the middle of the park is new home of Tulsa Opera in the old fire department headquarters. Is something coming together quietly in the East Village?

TU is making a legitimate proposal to house their portion of the School of Community Medicine (partnership with OU).  Formaation is also still proposing a development there, but significantly modified from their original it seems:  they are now proposing a 105 story mixed use building on that and adjacent sites.


(that is not a typo. 105 stories.)

This (the TU project) would be hella cool.  It would extend the Blue Dome through to the edge of the IDL and add activity to that end of the world over a whole new time frame.  Steady foot traffic in overlapping time slots is what our DT commercial needs to sustain itself, and, along with residential development, a TU mini-campus would help do just that. 

?

Jeez, that is as tall as Freedom Tower in Manhattan. 105 Stories would put it in the "super-Skyscraper" category...That's an interesting proposal. 

I can smell the OKCTalk regulars headed this way.....

Well, good luck to them on that... but at 105 stories it seems like a publicity stunt.  Really neat if it ever comes down the pipeline, but I'm skeptical.

Seems about as likely as a movie studio, a walmart and a mixed use multi acre concept with a baseball field at its center in the east end.

any link for this proposal?

Grandiose plans for the east end are nice - I would prefer something that will actually happen.   

OT I know, but what is the level of occupnacy of the old City Of Faith complex? I also think some one is definetly smoking something to propose a 105 story building downtown. The foot print for that would be extremely large. Was it proposed by the guy who designed "The American" statue?

Might as well throw in a totally-enclosed 1.5 mile NASCAR track and some dancing pink elephants while we are at it.  Who are these Formaation folks?

Chuck Tollefsen is the principal.  I've met with him a couple times on various projects.  Does not strike me as the kind of guy that could pull of a 10.5 story tower.

Attention er um, *cough* hound?

 ???

I was trying to be polite without referring to him as an attention-grabbing "lady of the evening".  8)

What?  105 stories?  I'm in stillwater and I can small that pile of **** from here.  A long time ago I adopted an "I'll beleive it when I see bulldozers" attitude about developemtns like this.  This I adjusted it to an "I'll believe it when I see cranes"  attitude.  This double applies for anything in the east end.  I just don't see anything happeneing there for awhile.

105? Wow.

How about going with 70 or 80. Just enough to put it 100 feet higher than Devon's OKC building?


105 is cool as hell but with so much empty space downtown, it just doesn't seem realistic... at all.

There is not that much class A space available downtown, although that number will rise when the tower at One Place pulls in some occupants from other buildings.  Currently a tenant looking for a large amount of continguous space downtown has only a few options.

Sister buildings?

Ryugyong Hotel

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Ryugyeong_Hotel_on_February_2011.jpg/515px-Ryugyeong_Hotel_on_February_2011.jpg)

a 105-story skyscraper under construction in Pyongyang, North Korea. Its name ("capital of willows") is also one of the historic names for Pyongyang.  The building is also known as the 105 Building, a reference to its number of floors.

  If it were true mixed use you might could pull it off.  Some housing in it, part hotel, part office, some retail on the ground floor, bout 20 stories worth of decorative spire lol. But if I had to choose, I would prefer 15 or so 6 story, mixed use buildings of different styles spread all around downtown, over one super tall one.  Now that would flesh out our downtown and create something wonderful.  Wouldn't be just something to oooh at from afar, but a downtown that you could really sink your heart into at the ground level and really love.

The above poster is correct WD.  Class A office space downtown is more than 90% occupied.  Cimarex wanted more space and will have to build... which will free up ~10 floors of space while adding to inventory.  But so long as ONG, BOK, Williams, and a ton of other offices keep adding to the downtown workforce it wil be obsorbed quickly.  more and more companies are adding downtown offices - large (northwest mutual) and small (Farmers corporate counsel). Remember that space that is not "nice office space in move in condition" doesn't count for occupancy.

Not that we have a need for 105 stories of new office space without some new super tenant.  If you made it mixed use and had the concept of basically building your own city you might be able to pull it off.  But that would be on the developer to work with the city anda  TON of entreprenuers to see that come together

While cool, I'd rather see a continuation of construction on 4, 6, and 15 story buildings that we are seeing.

But TU doesn't have any money.....

Many buildings of this height are hideously ugly, I beg that this does not happen. If there really is a need for that much space then I would much prefer one tower about 50' taller than Devon and two smaller 10-15 story buildings.

Case in point, the giant korean christmas ornament seen on this thread.  I don't know if this is worth talking about.

BTW, Did you know that the OneOK building was suposed to be 80 stories tall?  the oil bust happened and it stands as it does today.

Ok, So I just looked at the minutes from that meeting.  I'm far more interested in items 5 and 6, the ones concerning OSU-tulsa and Langston-Tulsa.  Ideas anyone?  PLease bring me good news!

Yep, my mom worked for Cities Service at the time (it was going to be their new building before it became the OneOK building).  Was sad watching in the papers as the building slowly shrunk every couple months or so once the oil bust hit.  Also, did you know that at about the same time the Cities Service building was starting there was a proposal for an even taller building downtown.  I remember the front page article had a rendering of what downtown would look like with all the new buildings that were being built and were proposed.  Looked spectacular.  The Cities Service building towered over the BOK, then that other building towered over that.  Looked as if its sharp spire could easily have reached 100-120stories tall.  The articles title said something like "Tulsa, The Emerald City".  I believe it was a Sunday paper and I think it might have been in the Tulsa Tribune.  Would love to see that image and the article again.   Talk about sucky timing.  Tulsa's skyline could have been jawdropping if the oil bust had just held off a few years.

The same thing happened to the building diagonally across the intersection to the pythian building, but in 1929 durring another economic crisis.

My neighborhood in uptown was to be razed for one of these proposed towers to be built at 15th and Denver where the QT is. So happy that didn't happen.

I'll try to find a link to it but I read a story in the TW a few years back about 8 buildings downtown over 40 stories that were cancelled at the same time.

I believe they ran that story around the time the Devon tower was announced.

Corroborated.  I'll Gaspar my post then.

Snort...  ;D

I wish TU/OU and OSU would all work together... If they did build this in the East Village Area it would really give a boost to it, I think it could be much more beneficial to all of Northeast Oklahoma and Tulsa if these schools would work together and have a long term vision and do something like the Medical District that has been built in Oklahoma City or the one in Houston (just on a smaller scale obviously). We've lacked the ability to have all these bio research areas because we haven't had the school and now we will. So lets not spread this out all over Tulsa like we do everything else and get some synergy going, because these school have the potential 10-20 years from now to change our economy.

Completely agree.  Joint venture with OSU Medical Center in that area.  That area could build up as a legitimate medical campus like OUHSC.

For once cluster all the medical programs in one place. 

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9566/outumed.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/outumed.jpg/)


I'm not sure what is currently on that piece of land? Google Maps says the Labor Department and Juvenile Parole (could we not get these maybe moved to One Tech Center since there is still lease able space there). This piece of property would be ideal for the OU/TU Medical School with the ability for them and OSU Medical School to expand and create Medical District. Also with the future rail connections to the west bank you could put a rail station on the tracks that bound the west side of this property and have more medical research areas on the west bank and expand the area of where OSU already has buildings in this area.

and that little triangle of land immediately to the west could be high rise student housing (plus rail stop).  It would change everything.  (ok not everything, just alot!)

LandArchPoke,
  That's the Department of Human Services. ( State office building).

The state office building plus the land to the east of OSU Med could all be redeveloped in the future.  That would generate a need for student housing that could be developed on the surface lots east of Denver south of 7th, just a few blocks from the medical campus.

Thanks for that info. I didn't realize there was that little space available with the empty buldings and lease signs I see.

Thanks, I would be curious to know how much space they occupy in those buildings? And if there was still enough space to transfer this office space over to the new City Hall. This take cares of the space they have been unsuccessful in leasing out and gives us the opportunity to actually building synergy with the medical schools.


Just think how much this would change the downtown area to finally get more students downtown and students that provide a much need research benefit. From my understanding, isn't the George Kaiser Family Foundation behind the TU/OU School of Medicine here? Any way to get them this idea, granted it would be more complicated to move on this idea then the hartford building area but this would be some much more benefical to the city to have a medical and research district in one area instead of spreading it all over the city like we do everything else!

I've heard talk of OU building a medical school related facility on the western edge of the UCAT land.  The Crowley plan called for a Boulder Ave mass transit route that would terminate into this area.

WHere?  All the area to the west is owned by OSU and Langston (formerly UCAT).  It's interesting that you meniton this because that land came up on the agenda at the last TDA meeting.

I spoke with a source who confirmed that TU is hoping to utilize this building for the new medical school.

Hoping to, or is?  Any sense of how far along they are?

I didn't press it as he (or she...) was being a little fuzzy with the information.  I get the impression that there is some hurdles to overcome before it can be final.  One, presumably, would be this use being chosen over the 105 story tower development or any "better use".  There might also be some questions on fitness for purpose - I dunno, but I got the impression that it wasn't a done deal but was the direction it was heading.  Generally, when TU heads in a particular direction it comes to pass.

When UCAT was formed OU was originally a part of it and actually held classes in the original building.  I believe OU still has a seat on the authority/trust that controls the land.  When OU had the opportunity to move to the old AMOCO facility at 41st & Yale they took it and allowed OSU & Langston to develop the property.  This is why the UCAT land is so large.

Also, I haven't looked at the agenda but I would guess the land you reference is not UCAT land, but rather TDA land that a senior housing project will be built on just east of Main St north of Emerson Elementary.

I'm speaking of the land to the south of latimer.Between boulder and cincinnati

There isn't a Boulder Ave at Latimer, it ends at John Hope Franklin.  Are you sure it isn't northside of Latimer between Boston & Main?  If so, that is the senior housing project. 

Here is a story from Fox 23 dated 11/04/11.  http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/New-senior-living-facility-in-the-works-in-North/RSQTrTuAA0u_dKhhqMs3Rw.cspx

Does anyone know what the construction trailer at Easton and Cincinnati just north of the IDL by OSU is for? Is OSU building something new?

I used to live at main and marshal so I know.  I was too quick with my discription though.  I am not talking about the land north of latimer.  I know the property you are speaking of and the project slated for it.  If you go back to the first post on this thread and look at the minutes from the meeting you will see that the OSU land is brought up (points 5 and 6, I think).  That is the land I am wondering about.  OSU-tulsa has been tlaking about expand for a long time.  The regents wont come through with the money.  When I saw those items on the agenda, I thought something might be in the works.

I've been wdonering that myself.  I should stake it out and see where they go.

I've put in several phone calls and best I can find out is that The School for Visual and Performing Arts is interested in utilizing UCAT land for their school.  However, no one has any confidence on if it will happen because they've looked at so many spots.

From the TW:

TU, OU-Tulsa work toward joint medical school in downtown Tulsa

By P.J. LASSEK AND BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writers
Published: 12/2/2011  6:29 PM
Last Modified: 12/2/2011  6:29 PM

A movement is under way to create the Tulsa School of Community Medicine, which would be a joint partnership of the University of Tulsa and the University of Oklahoma-Tulsa.
It would house a four-year medical school and other TU academic programs.

The Tulsa Development Authority, which is the city’s real estate entity, is set to vote next week to enter contract negotiations for the sale of the vacant Hartford Building, 111 S. Greenwood Ave.

TU is offering $2.25 million for the 74,772-square-foot building and two adjacent parking lots, TDA Executive Director O.C. Walker said Friday. The property appraised for $2.68 million.

The sale is contingent upon an environmental assessment on the properties, Walker said.

The project is designed to address the shortage of doctors in Tulsa and throughout the state, TU President Steadman Upham said.

“We’ve been working on this for more than three years, and it has come together very nicely,” he said. “As you can imagine, starting up a medical center is not a simple matter.”

The accreditation process is under way, Upham said, with the goal of being ready to admit new students in 2014.

The downtown site was chosen because the facility needs to be big enough to accommodate the school’s various components, he said. The Hartford Building provides a good footprint and would be renovated.

The medical center will serve as a major economic catalyst in the adjacent East Village area, as well as in the Greenwood and Brady districts, Upham said.

“We wanted to locate the program in a place where there would be available housing and where there would be attractions for the students,” he said.

“You want the students embedded in a matrix that gives them an opportunity to focus and study but also have a social life.”

The partnership is structured so that both universities will absorb some risk, Upham said.

TU will own the building and provide the basic sciences education, while OU will provide the accreditation and clinical elements.

At full-operational strength, the school will have more than 400 students and faculty at the facility, he said.

TU wants to start construction on the building shortly after the site is acquired, Upham said.

Mayor Dewey Bartlett said the medical center “will lead to a lot of good things by the simple fact that several hundred people will be part of that school.”

“Obviously they would like to have housing in the immediate area. Isn’t that terrific?” he said.

Another developer is planning a nearby housing project, which Bartlett said hasn’t been announced yet.

With an education project that’s a partnership between TU and OU, Bartlett said, this project will spur other downtown development by people who understand “this is the real deal.”

OU-Tulsa President Gerard Clancy said the two schools have been in a partnership for the past couple of years to train physicians.

“It’s worked out great,” he said.

The program graduated its first class in 2010, Clancy said. It was determined to be such a success that “we decided to plan toward a medical center.”

Steadman said the partnership showed “not only can we work together, but we produce a pretty good result when we do.”

Clancy said the program’s second class graduated Friday, ranking 18th in the country out of 133 physician-assistant programs.

Bartlett said he is in full support of the medical center project.

“It’s something for all of Tulsa to be excited about,” he said.

The purchase of the Hartford Building would be the University of Tulsa’s second major downtown project in the past year.

The university is developing a portion of the former Mathews Warehouse in the Brady Arts District to be the Zarrow Center for Art and Education.

It will house programs from TU’s School of Art and Gilcrease Museum, which is managed by the university. The Zarrow Center is expected to be open in the fall of 2012.

Plans previously proposed for the Hartford Building site that never came to fruition include one from the Ross Group for an office building and another from Formaation LLC that involved a 40-acre mixed-use development.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20111202_11_0_Amovem659018&rss_lnk=298,297

Anyone know anything about this?

Also, am I alone in thinking that that building is deeply ugly?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20111208_11_0_TheTul390048 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20111208_11_0_TheTul390048)

Development Authority, TU moving ahead with sale of downtown building

Still wondering, why this particular building/site?  Is it just because they can get the building for a good price in a downtown location?

There is no synergy created with any of the existing higher education facilities downtown.  Why not by OSU Med Center, or by TCC which has long-range plans to build a health sciences building near 10th & Cincinnati?

It's at the other end of Land Legacy's proposed central park from the All Souls site. The new home of Tulsa Opera in the old Fire Department headquarters is halfway between the two right on the park. And one of the articles said that there is a as yet unannounced housing development going in somewhere next to the school. The Kaiser Foundation has money in each of these projects that we know about except All Souls (which has all it's own money).

OSU-tulsa is three blocks north.

I totally on this. It really is another way Tulsa is spreading everything all over the place and not trying to cluster things together.

Also, will the be designated a school or a hospital? What does this do with our liquor laws and could the possibly stunt growth in the East Village or the Blue Dome (granted I know this will have a good impact some areas, but with this becoming on of the area better nightlife areas this could be a thorn in that kind of development). A similar thing happened in Bricktown when the UCO Jazz Lab or whatever it was opened in Bricktown.

Funny that you say that, because I've seen people from OKC talk about how everything there is too spread out and that Tulsa has done a really good job at keeping things dense.


That's an intersesting issue that I hadn't thought about. It's all the more reason of why we need to change our backwards and overly strict liquor laws. It's so frustrating to see something coming along, only to be slammed in the face by one of our stupid laws. Hopefully, that is not the case here.

I can't really imagine it will affect the district development in anything but a good way.  Remember that you can sell booze if you sell food which most places in the blue dome do.  Also,  in the area immediately surrounding I would look for mOre housing to spring up, not bars.  They need to study anyway! :)

And hopefully that is how this plays out. I would love to see more housing right around there.

I definitely agree that this is a positive development for Tulsa. Many of us on her have talked about how we want an urban downtown college. Here it is being given to us, and collectively I am very excited about it.

I'm curious, What do they think we've done a good job at keeping dense? Our development in general I would say yes... but I was talking more university/research wise. I would love to see this go in conjunction with OSU Med and create a research and bio tech area where OSU Medical Center and their properties on the west bank are. OSU/TU/OU could all build say a Cancer Center, Children's Hospital, Spine, and others and they could work together on the fundraising portion to get the centers built then OSU runs their program and OU/TU runs their program out of the build. Win Win for all the universities in my opinion. In a few years we could have as nice of a medical research district as the OU Health Center in OKC.

On the liquor laws: Why can't we have a clause written into it that excludes URBAN districts... say places like Downtown, Brookside, Cherry Street, but then keeps everyone else happy because it keeps the status quo pretty much but allows our urban areas to not be so restricted. Not sure how easy this would be though.

They were more referring to general neighborhood districts, not specifically medical or anything like that. As far as normal urban districts, OKC has Bricktown, CBD, C2S (not really a district yet, but a place that is already affecting development), Paseo, Deep Deuce, Midtown (much smaller than what would be considered Tulsa's), and several more. As main areas of new development, Tulsa pretty much has Blue Dome, Brady, and the CBD. Existing and constantly improving areas would be Cherry Street and Brookside.

I would also include for Tulsa those areas in Tulsa county (which would still be smaller in land size and population than OKC) like the River District in Jenks and the Aquarium, its downtown/antique district, Broken Arrows downtown and Bass Pro, and Sand Springs downtown.  One can only imagine what it would have been like if in this smaller area we had not had to compete with very nearby suburbs for the Aquarium, Bass Pro, and Riverwalk... and lost, but instead had all that and more on the west bank by downtown as a for instance.  We also have a lot of great art galleries and antique stores scattered in numerous districts and towns, but no real arts district like the Paseo.   Though I am excited about having a "museum district" downtown in a few years. 

But yes I too lament that we have so many different medical schools and such spread around different areas, and even the individual schools themselves are not concentrated. 

Does OKC have anything like our TCC and its multiple campuses thats paid for by the city/county? 

You forgot Automobile Alley & the Plaza District.  Automobile Alley coupled with coupled with nearby Midtown is probably my favorite part of OKC.  I also really like the Plaza District, its a very progressive area that has developed some great shops, creative firms and great bones for renovating old homes.

They have a single campus community college, OCCC, located near the airport in SW OKC.  I'm not sure how it's funded but TCC is much larger and has more impressive facilities.  It is too bad all of the 30,000+ students are not at the downtown campus.. They also have a single campus vo-tech near the zoo similar to Tulsa Tech.

I've been to OCCC before. Only to the pool for swim meets. They have very nice facilities for that.

The problem with having all of TCC downtown, is that they have so many concurrent enrollment students. It would not be feasible for kids from my high school out in Bixby to commute to downtown and back every day. That's a heck of a lot of gas money.

  What I was curious about was the comparative amount of city and state dollars each city gets/puts in for higher education.  For a long time it appeared to me that A. Tulsa wasn't allowed to have a publicly funded, graduate university in the city.  B. To make up for a lot of it, (while continuing to fund universities in other cities), we also had to dip back into our pockets again to fund TCC and the Vo-Tech system so we could have at least something here.  Hence rather than having a large state funded university, we have one of the largest Jr Colleges in this region of the country.  And now we have the scattered graduate universities that still aren't really, "real" campuses offering a broad range of programs and with housing and such. 

Do the people of OKC spend as much of their tax dollars on higher ed?  And whether yes or no, where does that money go?

From todays World:


Put's a spring in my step!

This is really good for Tulsa and healthcare in this region overall. I know several physicians in this program who speak very highly of it.

Nope.

Now what'd the TDA do?

crap...smile.

They probably explained the building codes to TU

Yes, the TDA is very knowledgeable about building codes.

Building codes for "redeveloping the building" are likely to be a consideration no matter who explained them.

Pssst..."acquiring"

Yeah, I know this is old, but still had some thoughts...

A.  You are right, we weren't allowed that.  TU didn't want the competition.  

B.  And it took stupid time to get TCC going around here.  They didn't open that until fall of 1970!!  50 years or more past time when Tulsa should have had public secondary education.


Now we got OSU, and while it would be nice if it were more like the campus in Stillwater, it is still pretty darn good!  And yes, Tulsa should have a full campus public university.  And not Northeastern State....they are good at what they have, but are not a full university.

TCC and the Vo-Tech system are really exceptional in north east Oklahoma.  I went to TJC (predecessor) and have taught there in the past - it is a very good system for the target audience...possibly even great for that target audience!  And the classes I have taken at Vo-Tech have done exactly what I feel a vo-tech program is supposed to do - give specialized, focused training to provide the necessary skills for a particular job or career path.  One of the best ways around to get a quick introduction through advanced training in a wide variety of skills.  Ever thought you might want to paint cars?  There's and "app" for that.  Welding?  There's an app for that.  Computer programming?  Yep, there's one for that, too.  Truck driver?  Well, you have to go to Drumright, but GOOD training at very reasonable...no....cheap prices is available on a huge number of topics!


Any and all higher education we get, no matter where it is in the area is a good thing!

Pssst... right back.  "Acquiring" can be significant but retrofitting to current standards isn't going to be inexpensive.

And so we go back to the TDA.  What, of the two, do you think the TDA would have more of a chance of screwing up?  Acquisition or building codes?

If you can assume that the termination of the agreement is the exclusive fault of the TDA, I can assume they know something about what would need to be included in a redevelopment.

Sure, you could assume.

Unless you have inside information, that's exactly what you did.

Again, you assume.

Stalk me some more.

Are you a member of the TDA?

I'm not.

http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/people.html (http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/people.html)

(http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/images/img_people_2011.jpg)

1st row: Paula Bryant-Ellis, Vice Chairman, Julius Pegues, Chairman, Jane Malone, Administration

2nd row: Jot Hartley, General Counsel, Carl Bracy, John Clayman, Roy Peters, O.C. Walker, Executive Director
TDA Board of Commisioners

Julius Pegues, Chairman
Paula Bryant-Ellis, Vice Chairman
Carl Bracy
John D. Clayman
Roy Peters

Jot Hartley, General Counsel
O.C. Walker, Executive Director

Now, point out the ones you could assume know what it takes for this building to be redeveloped as opposed to a possibility of issues with acquisition.  My first point before you started a badger fight.

Have you ever noticed the issues with acquisition with the TDA? 

No, you have convinced me not to assume something like that or even to assume something like
What fight?  I only pointed out that acquisition may not be the only player.  You are being overly sensitive or sarcastic.  I cannot see sarcastic in your font.  I can see your typical condescending manner in

TDA, not directly.  I do have some knowledge of what the city wants to tear down an old hangar at RVS and put up a new one.  Some of it is reasonable.  Some of it lines someone's brother-in-law's pocket.

You know most of the time, I'm joking.  You've made a habit of just arguing and arguing.  It takes the fun out of posting when you take part.  My post was "Now what'd the TDA do?"

You grabbed that and just kept going and going.  I imagine you're attempting to make yourself feel better about yourself.  If that's so, I hope you get there.

Too bad you cannot recognize when others are just trying to have fun too.

You take a lot of fun out of posting too.  You slip into condescending way too quickly.  You parse replies in a manner which belittles other posters rather than just their facts or their opinion.

You seemed to think that my point about rebuilding/refurbishing was totally irrelevant and continued to point that out.  You could have stopped if you found my posts so objectionable or irrelevant.

Now you are assuming.  I believe you are doing so incorrectly.

Shame to see this fall through for downtown, but I don't think this one was a TDA issue.  Looks like it was simply too costly to put in a new program from scratch in that location.  On the upside for me, since I live next door to the OU Schusterman campus, glad to see that campus being used more and possibly growing more.