The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Its that time...the Brady Fairfield Inn by Marriott has been set for a groundbreaking October 20th at 9:30am.  This is a cornerstone development that we hope will promote further growth and redevelopment throughout the Brady Arts & Entertainment District.  In addition to the 104 room hotel, we have over 11,000sf of available prime retail/commercial space on the ground floor.  For more information on the available space, please contact me at wwilkins@120developmentgroup.com  

Will Wilkins
W3 Real Estate - Associate Broker
120 Development Group, LLC - Principal
918.902.0760

Hope to see you all there.

(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h478/120development/FairfieldGroundbreakingInvitation.jpg)

Good-bye Parking lot!

The rendering looks great Will.

No denying that Brady is booming

Awesome.  This will be going up as the Tribune II finishes across the street.  What type of retail should we expect here along Main?

This makes me want to pee my pants with excitement. I know that the tribune construction crew still has the remaining southeast corner occupied for now.  Is the loft project slated for that corner still in the works?  It would be interesting to see a time indexed map of property values in the area over the last five years (and into the next 5). 

I'm also glad that the renderings show it going right up to the curb with no parking in sight.

While being excited is fine, please spare us the visual of you soiling yourself.

 ;)

I think I'm in love with that rendering. I still can't believe it's a Fairfield. Why can't every new hotel be of this quality?

And Jacob, I believe the Brady Flats project is still in the works.

At least I'm wearing my OH-MY-GOD-MY-CITY-IS-FINALLY-GETTING-ITS-CRAP-TOGETHER brand adult diaper.

Looks fantastic.

They don't need no stinkin' ceremony.
they're pretty much in full-on groundwork now.

unrelated (but nearby), thr Williams/BOK north parking garage addition is flying up
also unrelated... lots of activity on the KOTV site

A bunch of work was being done on various downtown developments on Saturday. It's great to see them working Saturdays.

And watching that parking garage go up is somewhat frightening. Looks like a giant erector set. Is there anything even holding those huge concrete pieces together other than gravity?

Is anyone from 1st Street Lofts over there watching too?

First floor of First Street lofts does have activity now: package store and oyster place ya know.

People were in there a week ago or so, but not since.  I drive by it everyday and look.  They could be there when I'm not, but i don't think anything has mooved or changed in a couple weeks.

I didn't mean to swing the thread in a negative.

Go Brady

+1

But I fear there's too much food and alcohol chasing too few dollars in DT.  :(

Build it and they will come.

And give reasons for corporations to move their employees here instead of move them away.

I think that is a reasonable concern.  At some point, absent real job and population growth, newly opened places will simply pirate off of existing establishments.  In that clip from MSNBC on Elliot Nelson and the McNellie's Group posted somewhere on another thread, one of Elliot's managers wondered on camera if DT Tulsa wasn't getting close to the saturation point (my word, not his) for restaurant/bars absent some game changer.

For the foreseeable future, however, I think a growing and expanding downtown entertainment scene is much more likely to siphon off patrons from other places around town - maybe even out south – as downtown becomes "the" entertainment district.  Also, I don't think Tulsa has begun to fully reap the benefits of the remodeled convention center as a driver of visitors to downtown for large conventions or conferences.  And, as mentioned above, a happening downtown is a huge asset in attracting new people and new businesses to the Tulsa area.

In other words, all the development underway in Brady, Blue Dome and by the BOK Arena are awesome!

People are salivating for these types of developments in down town right now. I think we are a long long way from the top of the curve. I'd put us at minus 3

(http://goodncrazy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Bell-Curve.jpg)

Agreed.  And Dtowner makes a good point about the Convention Center (and other DT hotels, ahem).... overall, the business we've seen come to Brady/Blue Dome has been mostly local folks coming downtown for day trips or less (a meal, a couple of hours at a fest, BOK/PAC/ONEOK/etc).  There have been occasional large multi-day events that draw regional or national folks to tay, but those are relatively rare.  I can count the repeating business on one hand, actually (OIGA; OMEA; Route 66 Marathon and Tulsa Tough).  If we could double those, you'd see an exponential increase in the business we could support.

And FWIW, it doesn't have to be citywide convention business.  Even group business that stays at a single venue can have a major impact on the walkable districts. We just need to manage a consistent stream of these things and you'll see the equation change significantly.

And we haven't even talked about the booming residential market; when it really gets cooking it's going to change everything yet again. 

Agreed. Now someone bring on the retail. If bikes shops, shoe shops and T-shirt shops are any indication people are ready to shop down town.

  Our downtown has a lot more potential to be a bigger draw for the restaurant/bar crowd.  The other night I went with some friends to some place out by the mall near 71st and Memorial, against my will I might add.  It was in the same parking lot, on the north side, where the Red Lobster and Windsor Market are.  

I could not believe my eyes.  This place was large and packed. But I was in shock most of the evening for these were young adults, people mostly in their 30s, some younger some older,,, packing this place out there in suburban wasteland, dreck.  The place was nice I grant you, wish I could remember the name, but it was a chain,,, and by the MALL!?  Really!?  These were grown up people, acting all cool, dressed up in their clubby clothes and such, hair done just so, strutting around, socializing, having a drink and listen to music.... in a SUBURBAN STRIP MALL!?  Really!?  It was just so surreal and abnormal from my perspective.  Now I remember beeing a teen and thinking the Mall and such was neat,,, but adults?  I mean here they were parking in some huge parking lot of a strip mall to go out and just down the way was the Chuck-E-Cheese and that big pizza place thing, yet somehow this was a "normal" hang out for these people?  OMG!  Grow up and go to the city lol.  Could you imagine meeting someone at some bar in a suburban strip mall?  How humiliating lol. "Come here often hot stuff? ;)  "  But there they were packing that place in like it was a completely normal thing?  I was just utterly baffled.    

A while back I was in NYC. We were at a rooftop bar at night, palmtrees all alight, skyscraper canyons glowing below you on all sides, the Empire State building aglow right in front of you, full of interesting people, etc.  Now I know we don't have anything like that here, but you could still have some smattering of dignity and go some place downtown or in a decent urban area.  Could you imagine someone from a real city coming to Tulsa and being hauled out to suburban no where land, parking in some huge parking lot in front of a strip mall and going into a club, and the people here thinking this is a fun, normal, hang out?  Sitting outside there you had a view of a large parking lot, the Pep Boys and the Dollar theater. I kept looking around thinking, What on Earth!?  I had never seen such a thing.  Granted I don't go out that way very often, but really. Go some place with some character, support your local businesses not chains, go places that are unique and unique to your city, urban is cool, suburban is bleh.  Am I the only one that thinks that, I thought everyone thought that way. I mean I can understand living in a suburban area, but I can't imagine in anyones mind other than some teenybopper that hanging out by the mall is something to do in the evening? lol  

Oh, just texted a friend and he said the place was  Baker Street.    

Again I was baffled and wondering why all these people were here and not downtown?  Why was that place there and not downtown, for even though it was a chain, it had a decent atmosphere and well designed layout. But the whole experience did not fit with what I thought was the usual way of things.  I will not go back again, I don't think I could handle the shock and trauma of,,,, whatever that was out there lol.

I was there once with my wife on a Sunday. We'd escaped an unfortunate Incredible Pizza bday party.

It's very strange how busy that place can be.  The "patio" looks out to a parking lot and the interior looks like an updated Bennigans to me.

While there we observed a toddler under his mother's table licking something off the carpet.  We left soon after to never return.

Disclosure:  I'm a bar snob.

That is a big one.  Actually attracting new corporations would be the next step, and attracting them to downtown.  Tulsa has had moderate success with that recently with Cimarex building their new tower with plans to add hundreds of new employees, NW Mutual moving their office and over a hundred employees to downtown, BOK, Williams and especially ONEOK adding employees at their already large downtown HQ's, etc.  It will be growing small companies and attracting other companies to downtown from other parts of Tulsa and especially from other states that will fuel additional growth in apartments, retail and restaurants beyond what we have now..

We had a group of ten or twelve go to Baker Street for a happy hour a few months ago. The wait staff was so inattentive that we all had one drink and moved on to another spot. I thought the place had a nice feel to it, but the staff spent the time talking to each other.

On the subject of too many places chasing after too few dollars.  This is a big concern for now, but I think the solution lies in the hotel and tribune II (heck the tribune I and robinson packer lofts): residents.  If the resident poulation grows, then they are able to have more regulars.  Regulars are business' bread and butter(s).  A BOK show or a convention or a Shock game is great but they are not enough to really make things stay afloat permanently.  Catering to the after-work downtown set is a good idea, but it isn't as good as residents.  The trick is turning those downtown office workers into downtown dwellers.  The problem at the moment is that downtown doesn't (nearly) have enough open residential units.  What I want to know is why we arn't hearing about new development projects every other hour.  I know the economy is bad and banks arn't willing to lend to developers, but sheesh...  I guess I'm just impatient.  As a final point, the great thing about a larger residential population is that once businesses (either employees getting to the BOK tower or dinners getting to hey mambo) the need for parking slowly evaporates.  one can only hope.

I maybe wrong but I think Baker Street won for best new bar in the best of Tulsa awards.

Except for the view of a parking lot instead of a downtown street and the possibility of bar hopping what is really the difference if you stay inside?  There is obviously a need for a place like this or it would have been empty.  If a place meets your needs and desires, why drive all the way downtown for essentially the same thing?  It's the neighborhood bar thing.  Your neighborhood is downtown.  For others it's 71st & Memorial. I can understand that you abhor suburbia but ask why you cannot (will not?) understand that others may want something else.  Although you ask why aren't the suburbanites coming downtown, I detect a contempt for suburbanites that makes us feel unwelcome.

I don't understand why so many want that?  Other than,,, lack of an alternative, not knowing what they could have and thus being perfectly satisfied with the situation, pure habit and its the only thing they know.  Not saying that its wrong per say, though one can make those arguments.  Plus, there is always going to be diversity, but what I saw seemed to be one example of a more common culture, the "rule" not an exception.  

Why drive all the way downtown?  Why indeed?  Why so many people sprawling so much that they would have to "drive soooo far".  Not against suburbia per say, but again when its by far the rule and not the exception or even more of a balance. Also, you HAVE to drive there is no other suitable form of mass transit. Why make it illegal to have any other situation even if you wanted it (mixed use not allowed, minimum parking requirements, on top of biased transportation/infrastructure allocations, etc.)?    

I don't think people realize how much of a joy a good urban environment can be, how it can be more efficient and cost effective.  I don't think they realize how much more interesting a good urban environment can be.  Etc.  we don't really have the examples yet, but its unfortunate and sad that this city doesn't even have good "EXAMPLES!?" and how we have to struggle so hard to create them because so many choose to frequent places at the opposite end of the spectrum versus supporting things that I would argue would help our city become a better place to live for us all.  Like buying local, sure it may be more convenient to do otherwise, but if you buy local a little more it helps out your community and even eventually yourself and your family. These aren't just moral descisions but economical ones as well.  You can argue that a twinkie isn't really bad for you, that its your choice to eat one and you may like them, but if thats aaall you eat or you eat too much of them, you got some problems.  Suburbia isn't bad per say, but we have gone so far in that direction while at the same time ignoring urbanity that we have made it a problem imo.  It has become unhealthy, and too many people are still chosing it far to much and to the detriment of other choices that could make them and their city more "healthy".    

That pretty much sums it up in both directions.


Even if there were effective mass transit from the burbs to downtown, I believe there would need to be something more unique to a downtown establishment than the view of other buildings vs. a parking lot to draw significant patrons.


I agree, it should be available for those who want it.  The link from around the corner where I grew up is below.  It was otherwise surrounded by mostly single family homes and some apartments.  It was also next to the trolley line that connected with Philadelphia public transit.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=19064&hl=en&ll=39.934046,-75.329234&spn=0.001861,0.004034&sll=36.153982,-95.992775&sspn=1.003483,2.06543&vpsrc=6&hnear=Springfield,+Pennsylvania+19064&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=39.934039,-75.329317&panoid=iKKd-ZfuYjaGPU0MDIBtIQ&cbp=12,48.38,,0,0


This comes back to your opening statement.  A good portion of joy and interesting are what you like and want to do.  Urban space utilization is certainly more efficient. (Except for Tulsa's surface parking.)  I may question cost effective because with increased density, more services and utilities are required.  Many urban promoters accept that living in "the city" is more expensive but "it's worth it".   Back to opinion on that call.  


I find it ironic that in many parts of the country, public transit is what made suburbia possible.

I'm sympathetic to Artist's point of view, but no matter how awesome downtown ever becomes, there will always be places like Baker St.  That's ok by me as that means everyone can find the type of place that is comfortable to them.  Besides, I am all for keeping those "Affliction" shirt wearers out south where they belong.

More troubling is the reason that Baker St. and similar places are so popular with a segment that would seem to be a more natural fit to hangout in downtown, Cherry St. or Brookside.  The daughter of a colleague of mine recently graduated from OU and moved back to Tulsa to work.  Many of her friends from OU and OSU did the same and they all hang out at Baker St.  Why?  Because her adn all her friends grew up in the Union/Broken Arrow/Jenks area and, having moved back to town, live out south.  Some live with parents, but even those who don't now live in south Tulsa apartments.  If you're young and you want to live in an affordable, newer apartment building that offers all the cool amenities, where else are you going to live but out south?  Once you live out south, you are going to hang out primarily at places out south.

The point has been made a lot, but it's worth repeating.  Downtown/midtown needs apartments that are affordable to young professionals and recent college graduates.  If you give those folks the option of living in or near downtown, many will choose to do so.  Right now, they don't even have that option.

And right or wrong Downtown still has a perception problem that it is scary or unsafe. As I said before we are still at -3 on the curve for development and change or perception that Downtown is a great place to live, work, and play.

Baker Street is a trendy chain place...it's allure will fade. There's few places out south. There's too many downtown. And you are right about the reasons they are congregating south.

It will get redecorated and renamed, possibly under new management and the cycle repeats.

In past decades, people drove in from suburb to downtown to work, then back again.  Now, the downtown evening visitors drive from suburb to downtown to entertain, then back again.  We have trouble with balance.

We have been coming downtown about 3 times a month this year, and the vast majority of the people I see are not living downtown.  There ain't that many places to live there.

I could see the urban life, if there was a way to get a decent garden.... maybe take one of those wasted parking lots and make it a community garden.

I think it's a false dichotomy to think either downtown or bixby.  Look at owen park, or crosby heights, or brady heights.  Minutes from downtown (on a bicycle) beautiful homes, more affordable than out south, and plent of room for a garden.  This leads me to my second point.  You are right, there is not enough housing downtown.  Developers are working on a few places, but ultimately we are still waiting on landholders to finally move on their properties.  David sharp seems to have finally gotten wise.  I wish others would follow suit.

There are some excellent houses in all those areas - maybe run down, but the architecture for many is stunning!  Has been 3 or 4 months since I drove north of downtown, but looked like there was considerable rebuilding going on.  Haven't made it out to Owen Park area in a long time.

I went to the Brady Home tour a couple of Sundays back. The neighborhood is looking great and the people were in love with their homes and the neighborhood. I live in an old home (102 years old) but I got house envy in several of the old Craftsman houses with their arts and crafts dining rooms, amazing crown mouldings, paneling details, old light fixtures, patterned wood floors, comfortable porches, built-in book cases and multiple stair ways. There is new construction, updated homes and some that are being meticulously taken apart and put back together. Its a very exciting time for that neighborhood and still plenty of opportunities to buy a home that needs some love on the cheap, or an empty lot with stunning downtown views to build as you like.

Most of Tulsa is more suburban than urban.

What? There are apartments at all price points inside the IDL now. Some of them are even cheap and pretty decent. Expand your search a mile or two from DT proper and you can find pretty much anything you want. Out south, my apartment experience was that they were either old and run down like Sunchase and its ilk or high dollar. The place I used to live is now up to $925/mo for the apartment I used to rent for $650.

For that price, you can get an equivalent apartment downtown or a 1500 square foot house near TU. There's not really any financial reason to live in South Tulsa unless you want to live in a McMansion. Something equivalent to that size costs a lot more where I live than at 111th and Sheridan, unlike more modest homes. It may well be more convenient if you work out that way, as many people do. But if the complaint is a lack of affordable housing in/within a couple of miles of downtown, the problem is that the person complaining isn't actually looking, not that what they're looking for doesn't exist. Perhaps better marketing could help.

I think the problem right now is that demand FAR outpaces supply (in the IDL, that is).  There are very few units up for grabs right now.  THere are definitly some but no more than unusall turnover rates.  You are dead on the money about rundown south tulsa apartments.  It's a disease inhearent in sprawl.  When one is obsessed with what is new and highly phobic about anything that is *gasp* 20 years old, there seems to be successive rings of growth and decay that radiate out from the city center.  Right now the ring of booming seems to be at Owasso, jenks and BA.  If you come into town a few miles you notice that the homes built in the late 70's early 80's look long in the tooth.  It's kind of funny to think of suburban decay, but it definitely seems to exist.  It is VERY fortunate that places like maple ridge managed to retain their value and that the home owners maintain their properties.  There is more to be said here, but I have a paper to write.  :(

Maple Ridge wasn't the "Maple Ridge" of today 20-25 years ago.

My point wasn't that there aren't any apartments near downtown, only that there aren't enough and very few new apartments.  I know we can criticize the attitude, but an older building often isn't as appealing to a potential renter after looking at a new building with all the bells and whistles.

That's why I was so hopeful about the apartment project that was supposed to go in behind the Food Pyramid in Brookside.  Not everyone will want to live in a high rise (or low rise) building downtown, but higher density in mid-town will help downtown, Cherry St. and Brookside continue to grow and prosper as entertainment districts.  Right now, if you are moving to Tulsa and want to live in an apartment in midtown or near downtown, the available options are pretty limited and not much is being done about it.

Lincoln Park, Renaisance, Tribune II, Detroit Lofts are all new(er) apartments.

I think its back to the urban/suburban thing in that there are a lot of people wanting the urban lifestyle and thus urban apartments/condos, as in "I can step outside and be within easy, pedestrian friendly, enjoyable, walking distance, of lots of stuff".  

Thats whats hard to find a good selection of.

 If your going to live the urban lifestyle and that often includes smaller spaces, you will want the trade off of having the ("sidewalks be your hallways, the downstairs or around the corner coffee shop be your "breakfast nook", the PAC, museums, concert venues, festivals, and nearby theaters be your "home theater/entertainment system",the parks be your yard, the sidewalk cafe's your patio, the local pub or hang out your den, the corner grocer your pantry, your "feet, bike, bus, etc." be your transportation, etc. etc.).  Our downtown is getting there with lots of new amenities (I am looking forward to the new downtown museums), hopefully an uptick in more businesses, still could definitely use more shopping and a movie theater, but yes, we still need more living right in the core to push things forward.

 I think we are actually making decent progress on all fronts.  I am glad we are seeing the housing we are seeing for it very well could have been that we saw the new arena come in and a bunch of clubs and restaurants opening,,, and didn't see the housing.  Its slow progress but I think the next couple of years will see our downtown fleshed out enough that it can finally begin to pass as a small, but well rounded, urban enclave.   Our city offers pleeenty of great suburban lifestyle/housing options, but its about time our city became a real city that can offer some great urban lifestyle/housing options as well.      

 In many other cities, even small to medium sized ones like Tulsa or OKC, you can to go several different, new, urban neighborhood, areas and look through multiple different apartment/condo buildings.  Here you can go to multiple suburban neighborhoods in several different suburban areas and find new, inexpensive to expensive options in each area.  Here, for urban living, there is a building here, a building there, a remodel here, a new one there, definitely more options than you had before, but still very skimpy shopping compared to a lot of other places and housing type options, and not really enough even in one area to have that "urban neighborhood" feel. Even OKC is much further ahead than we are in that respect. Though having said that I kind of like how Tulsa is developing such that a lot of our downtown urban housing is very much mixed in with and intertwined within the rest of the fabric of downtown.  There isn't a huge chunk of living in one area thats isolated from everything else, which you could say that a lot of OKCs new housing is.  But as we begin to infill more and have more mixed use buildings (like this Fairfield Inn) I think we will actually create a more "NYC on a tiny tiny scale lol" type experience.  We may actually end up being better quality than our friends down the pike, but perfection takes time  ;)    

Unfortunately, new is rarely affordable/inexpensive. 

what are the < $1200 options downtown?

Mayo Building 5th Main Street starts at $850
Renaissance starts at $865
Tribune starts at $700
Lincoln Park starts at $750
WestPort starts at $450

Most of those don't include utilities. When I was looking downtown/midtown is was difficult to find a decent place in the $600-700 range. I lucked out in a small, historic (and most importantly-updated and maintained) building for $625+ electric.

Lots of very nice Garage Apartments in the surrounding neighborhoods in that range (mine included) and plenty of older apartment buildings with wood floors close to downtown in this same price range.

However, the thread drift was: Newer apartments in downtown for less than $1000

The Mayo building does include some utilities.  WHen I talked with them a month ago or so, there were only two bedroom units open.

I've heard the 1 bedrooms have a long wait list.

I don't understand why more people don't investigate Owen Park.  There's a house on my street (it's on the Northwest corner of West Cameron and North Tacoma) that's got a new roof, new paint, nice looking interior and a decent small yard for 65K.  The payments on the mortgage might be as inexpensive as renting, and you are about two minutes from the Brady District....

Well phil, owen park would land one with an 'N' or 'W' between the house number and street name and that just isn't safe.  So saith the honkeys out south. 

I would ascert that I am melanin deficient, but am most certainly not a honkey.   :)

I wouldn't mind it, but there are a lot of people that just are not "house" people.  I have several friends that I couldn't imagine ever living in a house, it would just seem absurd lol.  Again, we are talking about people for whom the urban, condo/apartment, highrise/midrise, no yard, no muss no fuss, is the only conceivable way to go.  Even if the house was free, it would not fit their "norm" or expectations for how they want to live.

Just saying........

As much as I would rather live in a condo or apt, a free house is a free house.  ;D

Not exactly...property taxes and maintenance.

Maintenance can be a huge thing!  Even as we speak, I am planning the next big project - painting the house.  It has been about 16 years and while it still looks good from the curb, it is time.  And it is a bigger project than many people want to mess with.

The TW article about the Fairfield Inn mentioned it will have an adjacent parking lot.  Will there be a small parking area just east of the hotel building west of Caz's & Hey Mambo?  Or the lot south of Hey Mambo where the Brady Flats is proposed (but not started):
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110128_bradyapts0128p2.jpg)

The hotel won't take up the full half-block. I was under the impression that the hotel would take up about half the property lengthwise and the parking lot would be immediately behind it.

We had an excellent turn out fo the groundbreaking.  Among some of the presenters were Mayor Bartlett, Brady Owner's Association President Steve Ganzgow, Ray Hoyt with the CVB, Greg Oliphant as principal of the development, Jeff Hartman with SJS Hospitality and Tye Turman with Marriott and about 100 people in attendance.  Virtually all media was represented and there should be some great stories on they way.

Thank you to all that could attend, was great to see the support.

PS - the hotel will have its own parking behind it but still within the half block of development.

Thanks
Will

That makes sense.  The hotel won't be very wide but will front Main from Archer to Brady.  I just hope the Brady Flats project is still a go.  That is the most new infill in one concentrated area Tulsa has seen in a long time.

When you crunch all the numbers, there's no way home ownership is remotely comparable to an apartment. If you tally all these costs and you manage to sell for way more than you paid, maybe you come out even.

You got:
*Insurance on the structure.

*Property taxes.

*Maintenance (it sure is nice when everybody's worried about ice storm damage or whatever to know you're not gonna be financially screwed by a freak weather event)

*Increased utilities (a small one-bedroom is ridiculously cheap to heat and cool. $100 for a couple of the hottest months. $25 for the cheap months. In an old multi-unit brick building, you barely even need to turn on the heat until it gets really cold)

*Possible addition of a second car to the household and all its assorted expenses. Even the closest Owen Park homes are still two or three times farther from the core of downtown than most downtown apartments.

*Lawn maintenance costs (not huge, but I'm sure they add up).

*Safety/security. In an apartment in a multi-story building, the only real likely point of entry for a criminal is the door. In a house, you have way more points of entry. As someone who very easily broke into my parents house (as a child) multiple times when I forgot the key, that's kind of scary. So I'd probably need an alarm.

*Additional time expenditures. You're always tinkering with something on your house on weekends.

But once its all paid off you no longer pay a mortgage, renters will always pay rent.

But all those costs probably add up to the same as rent on a one-bedroom ($500-$600/month), or at least nearly as much. Some of the big home ownership expenditures equal quite a few months of rent. How much are monthly utilities alone on a house vs. an apartment?

It's best financially to live in as small a space as possible. That pretty much means an apartment, as I don't think there are houses that small.

Challenge accepted:

(http://blog.hotelclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/worlds-smallest-house.jpg)(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/01/article-1262806-08F4FB65000005DC-189_634x423_popup.jpg)(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2222/1490914525_aae5ae7975_o.jpg)(http://tinyhouseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/dome11.jpg)

Included in your rent.


Yep, a lot smaller place will most likely have lower utility bills.  One of the benefits of owning a row home is that except for the end units, 2 sides are not open to the elements.  See Philadelphia, PA where row homes were popular for a long time.


Depends on where the apartment is.


I'll give you that one but it too is included rent.


There are no 1st floor apartments with windows?


The money for the time you are not spending is included in the rent.

I realize it's included. But it's a choice between paying $500/month for rent and paying $500/month for mortgage PLUS another $500 (very, very rough numbers) a month on the extras I listed. Plus if you have to buy another car, that's at least $200 more a month just for insurance/maintenance/gas on a jalopy.

Townsend found some pictures of some pretty small houses.  There is a fairly small house on Peoria/Elm in Jenks between Main and 91st that probably doesn't have much more space than a medium apartment.  Generally though, with a house you have more space and that will cost more.  What would be the rent on a 1500 sq-ft apartment downtown?  Then we get into the questions of whether you want a yard or community park, a big kitchen or a seat at the local coffee house etc that Artist delineates so well.

Not all apartments are downtown or next door to shopping.  One person probably only needs one car.  Two persons may or may not.  I'm thinking of the apartments being built in Bixby at about 128th and Memorial.  Definately a two car place in my mind.  No question though, an automobile is not cheap.

So I saw in the article in the paper that the hotel will have an attached parking lot.  Where is that going to be?  If it's the space that the construction trailer is on right now, that's cool.  But if it's the lot behind, that means no brady flats.  that makes me a sad panda.... :(

See this....

Yeah, I read it after I posted that.  More researched needed on my part :)  I wonder if the lot across the street (where the construction trailor for this project is) is up next.  It might be that it's attached to the ward building which is fine becuase if that space is leased for commercial purposes, they may well need parking for a while, while the rest of the neghborhood comes together.  And while I'm dreaming, I may as well wish for the same thing on the NW and NE corners of main and cameron.  Sigh...

Gonna have to strip off the old vinyl siding its getting brittle and warping (so much for lasting forever), and do a paint job here.  Couple years ago a water pipe busted under the house/foundation, $3,000.  Just got an estimate for jacking up the foundation because the drought caused the house to settle and crack $7,000 plus right there.  The driveway is also cracked and will have to be replaced some day. Mowing, trimming, weeding, planting, cutting down trees, mulching, watering, etc. always a blast lol. Will need new windows one of these days, and the gutters are going to need replacing.  Water heater and air conditioning units are looking long in the tooth. And yes, even if the house is paid off you will always have property taxes and insurance.  Sometimes an apartment doesn't look so bad lol.  Unfortunately, right now I need a lot of space or would also have to have a very large studio/workspace.


Oh, and yaaay on the groundbreaking for the Hotel!

Yes, but with an apartment, you have some one living above, behind, below or beside you.

You got it exactly right!! 

And Townsend has been channeling Jay Schaeffer.  One of my favorite places on the web for years!

http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/

There is no excuse for the excess we see in today's McMansion mentality.  It is a tradeoff of quality for quantity - good quality housing for volume in a box.  If I can remember, I will try to get a picture of Bob Stoop's new place and post it.  It is THE epitome of what is wrong with the collusion between builders, realtors, and county tax assessors in this country!  And just TRY to build a small house and see what happens.

quote]There is no excuse for the excess we see in today's McMansion mentality.  It is a tradeoff of quality for quantity - good quality housing for volume in a box.[/quote]

here, here.  The idea that we are all supposed to live in a little feifdom complete with moor is rediculous.  Maybe we should resurect surfdom as well.  Contact dick dale at the belarussian consulate!

this isn't always a problem.  Sure in the smaller older buidlings your neighbours can get to know your morning routine beter than you would hope.  But when I live at central park, I never heard anything (ok one time, I heard my neighbours having sex in time with Bon Jovi's living on a prayer, which wasn't annoying.  It was HILARIOUS!) and certainly couldn't hear anything from my upstairs and downtairs neighbours.  My rent was 950 for including cable (not interwebs, but I think it is now).  My personal preference would be to never, ever touch the handle of a mower ever again, just pay one bill, have the cellar dwellar as my auxilliary living room, and live on bicycle.  And never hear bon jovi again without a big smile on my face.  ;D

I don't want a huge house but I want to need a phone to reach out and touch my neighbor.


I'm not real fond of mowing grass but I consider it the price I pay to have some room around me.  My next door neighbor plays his guitar loud enough I can hear it at the carport on the property line.  I can't hear it in the house.   We can let the dogs out in the fenced-in back yard and they have room to run and occasionally catch a rabbit, squirrel, or mole.  I wish he would catch a few more.  The moles make a mess and the squirrels eat my tomatoes.

Serfdom is the economic model we are pursuing at breakneck speed!!

Don't punch a hole in your wall and it's not a problem. ;)

Have you seen the Cleartone advertisements?  You obviously cannot hear them.
 
 :D

WHAT? YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SPEAK UP!

WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CROWDS?

The question is not what you look at, but what you see.

Thoreau

In an attempt to steer this topic back closer to the topic...
Anyone know the timeline for the Boulder bridge replacement?

Killjoy!

Mild thread drift:  The cigar bar next to hey mambo, behind where the hotel will be, is now open.  I was their first customer.  Ever.

Taken 1/11/12
(http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o600/plexis22/bradyhotel.jpg)

We need some new pictures but anyone else notice this building is made of wood?

2nd floor is supported by steel & has a concrete floor  (2 steel supports seen in above pic).
It is quite common for hotels to be constructed of timber.

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/saxmanosu/NewImage.jpg)

Here's an image I took just now.  The bottom is steel framed.  The rest is wood.  Not sure why that would be an issue.  It will be bricked on the exterior like the Metro according to all the drawings I've seen so not sure why it matters.  Wood framed construction, if done properly, is good quality and will last for as long as you take care of it.

This is looking great! It'll be nice when the brick goes up and we can see the finished product. Maybe then the Brady Flats will dinally get going. Thanks for the pic Dan.

Just noting the fact it's the only thing downtown in recent memory built of wood.

Actually, the building across the street (Metro at Brady, in this picture even) is also made of wood. The Fairfield at least has a first floor made with steel beams.

You said

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WPeNjvkdqIw/TrjHHFgvGrI/AAAAAAAAApY/splNr2-Dal8/s1600/beavis-butthead-wood.jpeg)

DJ's lounge FB post:

(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/403382_336277206446598_1216479015_n.jpg)

"windows going in"

This is going to be a nice looking building.

Are there any confirmations on first floor tenants?

Putting brick up on the front.

(http://www.tulsagoldenhurricane.com/download/hotel.jpg)

This is getting pretty exciting.

Just goes to show you how important orientation is. Unfortunately, Bartians in their infinite wisdom have provided an amazing example of what not do to.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bartlesville,+OK&ll=36.750832,-95.979435&spn=0.001717,0.002411&hnear=Bartlesville,+Washington,+Oklahoma&gl=us&t=h&z=19

The Fairfield is virtually the same building as the Hilton (less one story even) but just oriented different, more appropriately for a downtown setting. So in B'Ville, an entire block (a larger one at that) is taken up by a building that should have taken no more than one fourth of a block. Plus, people don't like walking across an asphalt parking lot

I'm not sure where you're going but this pic was taken from the Mexicalli parking lot as I was leaving lunch.
Parking will be an issue for this hotel when it is fully booked but there is overflow parking about 1.5-2 blocks to the SE.
Hopefully they will have a shuttle.

You're saying they will need a shuttle so people don't have to walk 2 blocks?

Not sure if serious.

I only meant that the Fairfield is built out to the street, which allows for them to have multiple commercial options even though the building itself will take up frontage for an entire block. Whereas the Hilton in Bartlesville is set back (way back) and there are no commercial options available unless you count the hotel restaurant, which is limited in my opinion. It also took up far more square footage of land which could have been used for other things in the future. By building to the street and including multiple commercial bays, it has helped create foot traffic. The foot traffic to a Fairfield alone would be limited, but if there are 4 or 5 other options, well then you have more people walking by, which is good for attracting more development downtown which in return will likely lead to more beds taken each night. I know it's probably not just that simple, but it seems to be.

Personally, I don't think Tulsa or Bartlesville has a parking issue downtown so I would be perfectly fine with surface parking lots being built on without replacing parking somewhere else. It's just not really necessary in building a vibrant urban environment. Tulsa's real issue is transportation, not parking.

Nobody in this town would ever consider walking two blocks at the mall,,, I mean in downtown.  Thats absurd.  Fortunately people staying at this hotel will likely be from out of town and won't mind, plus the hotel might have valet service.

The hotel will almost certainly have a valet.  Even hotels with more surface parking usually have valets, and the hotel may even charge extra for it.  It's a cost of staying downtown in just about any city.  I would like to think that a shuttle would not be necessary for a two block walk, but this is Tulsa, so unfortunately, it is an issue.  A shuttle would be helpful though for a broader range of things, like transporting people to Blue Dome, OneOk, BOK Center, Deco District, etc.  The walks aren't all that long, but still long enough that even fit people would use it, especially in extreme heat or cold.  It could even be used to get out of town guests to Cherry Street or Brookside.  Valets and shuttles are just good business for hotels, especially those in downtown areas and entertainment districts.

Exactly. They will have a shuttle, not because Tulsans need one, but because it is good business for a hotel like this.

LOL, just playing on the parking issues people believe are downtown ;o)
Tourist don't mind. Just locals coming downtown.

Yeah they will have shuttle to events and places, very unlikely it will visit a parking lot two blocks away. Well Maybe as a service, but I still doubt it.

I have stayed(sp?) at Fairfields in AZ, CA, OR, and CO and they may offer a shuttle from the airport or train station for those near AmTrak, but none of them have offered or have a valet. Fairfield is most always the bargain version of a Marriott, more like a Motel 6 or Red Roof Inn version of Marriott, and similar to what La Quinta Inns And Suites is, upscale from Motel 6/Red Roof types, but inexpensive enough to attract budget minded travelers.

Does the Fairfield near Woodland Hills offer valet?

From FB post:

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/558986_4369692553778_990050080_n.jpg)

Opens tomorrow

Was in the Brady last night.  The lights for this parking lot are probably view able from space.  It felt like daytime in that lot last night.

Does anybody know if the Brady district flats will start construction soon?

All that blinding light is there to make you feel safe (downtown is scary!)
Hopefully the hotel has blackout curtains.

The Fairfield said that they are going to try a low watt bulbs in their parking lot to cut the out how bright they are. They have a had a lot of complaints about them.

As for the Brady Flats, They said 6 months ago that they would start in Jan 2013! But I wouldn't hold my breath, no seems to know!

It looks like "Prime" will be opening soon.   Tablecloths & dinnerware were on the tables when I walked by today.

Edit:  just found this:
Prhyme Downtown Steakhouse set to open Nov. 28 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=39&articleid=20121121_44_D3_Jsihms419333)