The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

It seems that they share diabolically opposite agendas.

Already threaded: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=17851.0

But since you brought it up, the Teahadists are obvious bigots and hateful while the Occupiers  believe in civil disobedience. The teabaggers want to obstruct Obama....the occupiers want to draw attention to the inequities between the income levels of financial manipulators and the middle class. Teabaggers might find themselves allying with the Occupiers, but you will not see the occupiers allying with the Teabaggers.

diabolically?

Let's remember who posted this...

Here's a pointer to an essay by Tom Hayden that explores that theme.


Let Wall Street Beware a Risen People

...

"Sparks differ from words. Sparks ignite passion in others. Words
engage the multitudes who are paying attention, who will do their part,
if they feel this is about them. Words like: end these wars, invest in
jobs, regulate and tax Wall Street, protect the future. In just six
months, next May, both sparks and words may matter very greatly when
the powers of NATO and the G-8 will gather in Chicago for five days.
Think of it: all those responsible for the long wars, the financial
crisis, the growing unemployment and budget cuts, and the erosion of
the planet's life support systems... all of them. Think of the
possibilities, a global protest of global power. Could this be where
the winds are blowing?"

Change seems to be blowing in the wind....it's not an "answer" to the party of Teabaggers but more a repulsion of them.

Perhaps they share similar goals, just different means?
Do you think most of them understand what they are protesting?

It seems like a very confused group, organized under several causes without a clear goal.

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6178796459_a2cdf10fca.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6156/6178793471_19a60e39b9.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6179/6178789229_c2107b157c.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6163/6179313786_78dbea4cf1.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6179/6179303256_ed0babd6a2.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/6179302616_10ecc2fd21.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6153/6187521772_972c61f7c1.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6187522896_0226d6701a.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6174/6187944728_8807d99bcc.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6172/6187426019_10805bf5cd.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6163/6187948842_379044a32c.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6166/6187432523_c87c172f8c.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6156/6193066358_7165092724.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6170/6193069940_c50b047aa7.jpg)
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6175/6192554785_0c2d0c5e69.jpg)



But what is the goal? 

Even though I think both sides would be loathe to admit it, they have a lot of similar underlying motives.  Or maybe causes.  Economic uncertainty, a belief that Washington isn't representing its constituents, and that it has either been bought or co-opted.  

Obviously the conclusions that each group has come to are diametrically (not diabolically) opposed, but there's a shared sense that things are very very wrong with out country.

I've been reading up on Occupy Wall Street, and have come to the conclusion that this specific iteration is doomed to fail (just like the weeks of protests in WI failed to achieve a marquee success) but I also think it's the beginning, not the end of this kind of protest.  There're more than enough politically and economically disenfranchised folks out there to feed an extended movement.  

And re: the Tea Party . . . I think it's telling that they never showed up in numbers nearly approaching what we're seeing in Wall Street (or saw in WI)  and yet they seem to wield enough political power to elect upwards of 60 reps not two years after they appear on the scene.  You'd figure that if size alone of a movement indicated political influence, these folks on Wall Street would have some real clout.  And yet . . . not so much.  At least not yet.  

There are huge differences.  The Tea party purports to be a grass roots organization, yet it's well-funded and centrally controlled.  It's astro-turf.  The Wall Street protesters, on the other hand, deliberately eschew central organization or even the idea of leaders.  They have little funding and rely on pro-bono legal assistance. The reason for the apparent non-organization is that there are no leaders to be singled out by the media and law enforcement, a long-held tactic of left wing protest groups.

Interestingly, the arrests of 700 or so protestors seems to follow the same pattern NYPD used against Critical Mass bicycle riders during the Republican National Convention, where the PD blocked off an intersection to force the riders onto another street which was barricaded at the far end.  They were ordered to leave the street, but couldn't due to the size of the crowd.  The cops then arrested as many as possible for refusing a lawful order or some such.  Most of the charges were later dismissed.  The same pattern is alleged to be what the PD used on the bridge, directing an overflow crowd onto the roadway, then arresting them.

Also, the TWU bus drivers announced their support of the protesters and may refuse to drive buses if the police continue with arrests.  This is getting interesting.

It's about as clear as the early Tea Party screamfests at the Obamacare town halls.  This one is clearly youth-oriented, and does very much sprawl in different directions.  Though if you look at the signs there's a lot of on-point focus on the economy.  Not a lot of "Free Mumia" crap floating around.  

http://nycga.cc/
http://occupywallst.org/

Good primary source reading, if you're curious.  There're some specific ideas though there's still a lot of self-organizing going on.  It's all economic in focus, though.  Especially when compared with some of the catch-all protests earlier this decade.  

Not a bad observation.  I think we have a problem in this country with the understanding individual rights, and individualism in general.  As you can see in many of the posts on their site and the images on their flicker account, these are the young people that have suffered horrible injustice in their education.  They believe that individuality comes from the tip of a tattoo gun or is communicated by the shirt they wear. They don't understand that true individuality is based on who you are and what you can do to better yourself and the world, rather that what you look like, or who you choose to stand with.

When interviewed, it is painfully obvious that their understanding of opportunity is based solely on group-think mentalities.  One girl sited her reason for being there on the fact that she doesn't want to wake up every morning and worry about paying back her student loans.  Others cite Marxist ideas and disjointed emotional positions.

We have wronged these kids, horribly, but not through abandonment, but through coddling, and in tough economic times, they are the ones to suffer the most.  They have been educated to be of little worth to society.  They have been indoctrinated to resist opportunity.  They have been convinced that to succeed they need to be part of some group, and through their mere association, they will be triumphant.  Someone somewhere in their past forgot to teach them the principals that make this country great and offer them the opportunity that they would have nowhere else in the world.  Their decent is directed toward freedom.  They hate that people can make money with ideas and strategies, and hard work.  They are pissed that the banker with a 4 year degree can make more in one day than they will their entire life with a graduate degree in French Literature.

Boy that didn't take long, did it?  Completely off the rails into anti-commie territory. 

Re:  student loans . . . it's entirely possible to wake up dreading your student loans if you're in the hole in the tens of k, you have no jobs and no prospects, and are looking at decades -- your whole working life -- of debt.  College is far more expensive now then when you and I went to college (late 80's early 90's, right?)

Just curious, do these young socialists want to make more money by spreading the wealth?

Do they want money for not working so they can live indefinitely on the government dole?

Or do they simply want to limit how wealthy others can be so they no longer envy the wealthy?

Now wait...have we decided they're communists or socialists?

Socialist Communists?

Communist Socialists?

That's what their signs say.

The Workers World Party is a socialist group.

Whose?  That guy over there or that guy?

Nice logical jump.

You think we should make some blanket assumptions about all Tea Partiers based on signs at those protests?

Would you like to advance the theory that they are somehow in support of Capitalism?

Regale us with your interpretation, and post more than a haiku or your standard drollic quip.

LOL!  Don't you?

If I answer like you I guess I'd need to say "If you're too slow to understand my meaning then it's meaningless to explain.  It's probably not your fault."

I'm sorry, that was unfair.  I did not mean to hurt your feelings.

Am I making an unfair assumption that this group is socialist in nature because they are organized by AdBusters and the Worker's World Party?  Perhaps these groups simply supplied signs, and because the messages and imagery of Chi was attractive, the protesters opted to carry these signs.

I wonder if any of these poor kids have any idea of what they really believe in, outside of the emotion of the group?

(http://ph.cdn.photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/eaa18f07fc774140ac3885c30e0e2d19/WALL-STREET-DEMONSTRATION.jpg)

You think any of these groups know?  You think someone calling themselves a "tea partier" believes the same thing as another "tea partier" next to him?

You think that guy throwing millions into a political pot for some party believes the same as the other guy doing the same thing?

I don't know.  It seems like the Tea Party, Democratic Party, Republican Party, Libertarian Party, Socialist Party, Communist Party and the various organizations associated with them all have a fairly well documented platform, and understanding of the foundations of that platform. 

Probably safe to say all those Hitler youth young protestors share a common belief capitalism is a bust since that was mainly what they were protesting.

Curious how many will go on to be investment banksters some day?

Ask a tea partier where he's taking his country back from and where is he taking it?

As far as the other parties you think that socially liberal/fiscally conservative Republican standing over there feels the same way as that socially conservative Republican standing over on the other wall?

I doubt it.  I'd assume many of them were looking for a way to feel like they belong to something either for a few hours or many weeks.

How many people sticking flowers in gun barrels in the '60's are now investment bankers?

With that thought in mind:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Day_12_Occupy_Wall_Street_September_28_2011_Shankbone_33.JPG/444px-Day_12_Occupy_Wall_Street_September_28_2011_Shankbone_33.JPG)

Based on this evidence, I've concluded that the protestors are all German philosophers, and since Germany is also known for it's high-quality porn, it's painfully obvious that this young woman wants me.  I really hate breaking her heart, but there's no alternative.

And per the preceding logic so does the older gentleman behind her and to your right.

I guess we will have an opportunity to experience this group up close in Tulsa soon. A local gentleman, Daniel Lee, is organizing a march on the 15th here in tulsa.

(http://hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/261729_10150229596791298_585346297_7495026_2744455_n.jpg)

Don't know much about him except he claims to be a "Democratic Socialist," student of Aliester Crowley, supporter of the Anarchist Black Cross, and upstanding member of the local Hearthside Pagan Coven.

They have a nice facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/OccupyTulsa

I can't wait to take pictures at the event!

Moveon.org has now joined in support of Occupy Wall Street.

On Wednesday, when MoveOn.org hosts an online video “march,” members will join in with labor and community groups for what the say will be the biggest demonstration to date.

“Together, we’ll add hundreds of thousands of voices of solidarity from the American Dream Movement for the protests across the country and show just how widespread outrage at the Wall Street banks really is,” MoveOn wrote in an email blast to members.

So it looks like this will be gobbled up by the Democrat Party, just as the Tea Party was gobbled up by the Republican party. . .or was it the other way around?

Gaspar, I am a little disappointed in you.  Judging a group of people because they have a tattoo or 7 or because they may wear a shirt that is not a white button up with a blue/red tie?  Is this all you can pull together?  They are doing what they believe to be bettering themselves and the world, just like the Tea Party.  And isn't who you choose to stand with a big determining factor on who you are as an individual?  I am sorry that you cannot seem to see that there may be other answers in this world other than what you think is right.

You've got me all wrong. I'm not judging, I'm observing. I am positive that there are other answers, and there are groups offering answers, but we haven't seen that with this group.  They obviously have things that they are against, but besides peace, love, and fellowship, they don't offer solutions.

Watch the interviews and you see that most of them are participating for the sake of participating. 

Well kids, I guess it's time to get your boots.

I'll raise you:

(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/db8hrb92XfswTXTrHBqtwg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNDc7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-10-03T180939Z_01_NYK301_RTRIDSP_3_USA-PROTESTS-WALLSTREET.jpg)

(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/doXw3EN4KJy7E9GXQTnq3g--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zMjM7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-10-03T181151Z_01_NYK302_RTRIDSP_3_USA-PROTESTS-WALLSTREET.jpg)

(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/ATnmEjLHWONByaa41x5GXQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zMzQ7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-10-03T183517Z_01_NYK304_RTRIDSP_3_USA-PROTESTS-WALLSTREET.jpg)

(http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2011/10/occupy-wall-st-zombies.jpg)

(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/oUwWy4GzARl7EuWgv8Rv3w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNDI7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-10-03T183928Z_01_NYK306_RTRIDSP_3_USA-PROTESTS-WALLSTREET.jpg)

Where do these morons come from?

They have now compiled a list of grievances.  But sill no demands, or offerings of solutions, or working ideas aside from the platforms of the groups supplying many of the signs.  So if they want to end capitalism, what would they suggest in it's place?

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

Love the sign which refers to President Obama as another Bush war criminal.

Classy.

I stand corrected.  They do have a list of demands on the Occupywallst.org website.  Demand #3 is interesting.  Aww hell, they're all interesting!

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

Lloyd J Hart 508-687-9153

Reads like an old FOTD post!

Where can I find a pair of those glasses?

Short memories.

Remember pics of the tea party rallies?

(http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/0415-tea-party-rally.jpg/7737161-1-eng-US/0415-Tea-party-rally.jpg_full_600.jpg&sa=X&ei=ySCKTt7QKOX7sQKY-9zODw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHe0hsUR-vrEpPqVNjKQuNSeVLYEQ)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvhXcsNNP3irmquelQ-V-dYuRB72IxYlIkF5AA_bMfSeScalm5GQ)(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQV-iu1e7Xy8AqIx9E5UVLjgtafv_gaHB6ZGwbGM1oNL1MstuWS)(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT77zahDSTPFQza7-1WyO_-GbgfW_pEjYHQgxs8WlQqsDyfoH2duw)(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9fLuHn94eJiLu_E9iwdGhVNiUWXY9uhNQzPVVO5vDbkONFru3RA)(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQXh4kRL6FwohnjyAmacZLFWNYfnY4J-rHTSldZ9IJ3ht1tM_j)(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnZWNxExen_soILfHxLKy_2WKPgQ9omybz3oK_3hWdrd3ZmXxL)(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFhlFKzbQA-X9fdY3i9UzFCaCwj4xaHQZpRsmAaii6kJlzkEUA7A)

You get the point.  All sides have their wackos.

Those aren't glasses. . .you may take it with however many grains of salt that you wish. That the brown acid that is circulating around us isn't too good. It is suggested that you stay away from that.

Quick!  Someone call Lloyd Hart and see if he's in the middle of smoking a big fat spliff.

Really?  Forgive all debt immediately and that will create jobs everywhere?  Open borders, but tariff the crap out of all foreign goods.

Yeeesh.  

I'm actually not opposed to tariffs and I do believe college should be more affordable.  I think that's a better investment than lifetime enslavement in social programs.

If I had made up a fake list of demands for this group as a joke, I couldn't have done a better job.

Basically they are demanding a guaranteed $40,000 a year income, having their credit cards payed off, and never having to work again. 

I have a feeling if you called Lloyd J Hart, his mom would have to yell at him down in the basement, but he might not be able to take your call if he is in the middle of a serious Battlefield Earth match on the Xbox.

Could you at least link the lists so we can see their origin?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

So this guy represents the entire movement?  He's their leader?

I assume not, but he's offering the only set of demands they have.  I'm sure if you disseminated this list through the crowd they would all fall into agreement. 

Ralph Nader where are you?

No, they wouldn't all fall into agreement which in the long term will be their demise. How can you run with just one blogger's list of demands when the intent of the movement is to make Corporate America accountable for the great wealth gap by changing their abusive and self serving ways? I'm not defending this movement, but they sure would seem to have a stronger network than the Baggers did at first. Of course, now that the GOP has done a mind meld with the far right faction their network is more united than ever before even if they did have to blackmail the US Speaker of the House into leaving his post.

It looks like it's just entered into a forum as if Sauerkraut listed demands on our forum.

Awesome and a little weird!  Marxist Francis Fox Priven addresses the crowd.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsK2WeO7VbQ&feature=share[/youtube]

So you post a list of demands from some dude and claim it represents the entire movement and now a 8 minute video?

I'm finding this hilarious that the same set of people who seem to define the Tea Party and other conservative movements by the actions of one or a few don't condone such generalizations toward more left-leaning movements.  Why the double-standard?

That's Russell Simmons standing next to her. 

Maybe because you do not see the Dims spooning these protesters unlike what you saw when the GOP integrated the teabaggers into their tent. :D

Sounds like MoveOn is pretty hot to jump in the sack with these fine young, if not clueless, Americans.  MoveOn is pretty much hardcore left Dim.

Law school students - after a long weekend of all nighters!

I'd imagine just to push back a bit.

Number one is to make the minimum wage meaningful.  Very reasonable.  We have inflated the currency so horribly for the last 30 years that the "equivalent" minimum to 1981 would likely be double what it is today.  (Will have to calculate to give the real number.)  Deficit spending will do that to ya!

Number two - not sure single payer would help, but the rest of it is an accurate description of the problem.

Number three - that's an old Richard Nixon proposal from about 1971.  He had a pretty good proposal for tax reform that would likely have been the thing we remember about him if he could have just avoided committing all those felonies!

Number four - free college is one of those things that we have more than ample evidence returns dozens of times the investment to the economy, and in particular the tax coffers.  Should have been done long ago.

Number five - excellent idea.  We have heard Exxon, Shell, Chevron, et al telling us for years about how critical it is to lessen our dependence on imported oil.  And yet, they still don't explore, drill, or produce in about 75% of the areas they have available.  In the meantime, Germany just keeps on plugging along in its brilliant efforts to reduce dependency on those same energy sources.  NOT to completely eliminate, but to reduce the dependency - which also happens to be just good old common sense - never put all your eggs in one basket.

Numbers six and seven - if we can waste a trillion and a quarter just giving it to big banks, and another 3 to 4 trillion fighting the WRONG war, then putting this into fixing things here should be easy.

Number eight - hasn't happened without one.  Don't think it rises to the level of Constitutional amendment though.

Number nine - stupid.  Gotta have a "throw away" negotiating point.  This is it.

Number ten - LONG overdue - for BOTH sides!

Number eleven - might be an interesting experiment.  Kind of like with the game of Monopoly, sometimes ya just gotta start all over.  (The 'wealth' would likely start drifting back to many of the areas it resides now, but I bet not all.  For example, I bet Paris Hilton would not get much back.)

Number twelve and thirteen - both long overdue.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eF6vCv13bw[/youtube]

Idiots (Teabagger) get too much air time....we are polarized. But why this guy gets time, I don't know. You will not see or hear "anonymous" making such flagrant errors in judgement....

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Minimum wage in 1980 was $3.10, worth $8.52 now.

I wonder if Bocephus even votes or if he's the typical clueless celebrity who should just shut up and play their music?  Now to answer why people like Hank Jr. gets air time it follows with why we are so polarized:

Problem with polarity seems to be that the media, instead of simply informing sees politics as entertainment, sort of a blood sport, so they keep trying to seek out the most extreme elements to represent one side or the other and keep the ratings up.

Case in point:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Ted_Nugent_in_concert.jpg/220px-Ted_Nugent_in_concert.jpg)

At least Uncle Tedly's brain isn't soaked in old '07 and quaaludes. 

In reality, about $ 4.41 - probably a little less by now.  And here is one normalized to 1996 dollars.  Much more realistic and actually shows some information.  Steady decline since 1980, except for a short time when we had economic stability and a small semblance of sanity for a few years.  Before Baby Bush tax giveaways to his richest buddies.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774473.html

From information here;
http://www.dol.gov/

Well, it's Hank!  What can you say?  Like father like son.  He seems to be channeling Toby Keith.  Or Baby Bush when he was drunk in public.

Just the Foxes.....you don't see this on MSNBC or Current

Gas... Seriously? "I'm not judging, I'm observing"? 

Right, wrong, or indifferent here is my view of this.  CEO's today make a lot of money.  There is nothing wrong with that.  But when you compare to yesteryear you see that the pay that CEO's receive is over 250x's that of the average worker, as compared to 42x's in 1980.  I am not going to sit here and say that they don't earn their money, but it is the perception that greed begins to run their decisions.  Right or wrong and based upon decisions by both Bush and Obama; We, the taxpayer, have kept many of these banks and corporations from failing.  We funded their bad business decisions.  And when there was an outcry about CEO compensation at these companies and banks, they went out of their way to pay back the loan so they could continue to make their money.  They did this whether or not they were in a sound business position to do so. 

What I see as the biggest complaint of this group is that the perception is that greed is running the market.  These groups of people depend on the American people to make a living; however, they do not care to take the American people into consideration when they are making questionable business decisions as long as they can put a dollar into their pocket at the end of the day. 

You're kidding, right?

Madcow?

Olberdoosh?

Worst of the blood-sporters.  They are the Limpbaugh and Hannity of the left.

They never allow hate speak....sorry to disappoint you. They may poke fun and mimic and be sarcastic but they all draw the line when it comes to lies and intolerance. Obviously, you do not watch these journalists preferring pathetic entertainment that conjures up the devil in people.

You hit the nail on the head! 

The practice of propping up a failing business, will always promote the very practices that caused that business to decline in the first place.

After failure our natural instinct is to add regulation and complexity because it convinces us that the failure was not our fault.  We feel that regulation and complexity will somehow remove poor judgment, but it does not, and we are forced to learn that lesson over and over again.

Failure is the most valuable teacher.

The economic miracle that has been the United States was not produced by socialized enterprises, by government-unon-industry cartels or by centralized economic planning. It was produced by private enterprises in a profit-and-loss system. And losses were at least as important in weeding out failures, as profits in fostering successes. Let government succor failures, and we shall be headed for stagnation and decline. – Milton Friedman

There can be no freedom without freedom to fail. – Eric Hoffer (1902-1983), The Ordeal of Change, 1964

Capitalism without failure is like religion without sin. Bankruptcies and losses concentrate the mind on prudent behavior. – Allan H. Meltzer

It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong. – Thomas Sowell

Simple, clear purpose and principles give rise to complex, intelligent behavior. Complex rules and regulations give rise to simple, stupid behavior. – Dee Hock

I've watched Olberdoosh's spittle-laced tirades more than once.  That boy is a psycho.

Madcow calling people Islamophobic or calling Tea Partiers racist isn't intolerant?  

Oh, and for those of you going south on Yale between 36th and 41st, there's a hand-scrawled "Occupy Tulsa" "Say no to big biz" banner on a fence on the west side of the road.  Looks like a pre-school project.

Probably the phobics and the racists were intolerant.

I'm intolerant of intolerance.

Indeed

I like both.  Olbermann and Maddow have done more to establish the foundation of media bias than any other commentators. They are the Beck and Limbaugh of the liberal world, except without the audience.

  

 

Neither of you have time watching these fine commentators because you're busy watching Roger Ailes' poondits.

They wouldn't need to be bias if their competitors were fair and balanced.

The Occupy WS fuel comes from a different place than talking points on right wing airhead waves. http://www.truth-out.org/fuel-occupy-wall-streets-fire/1317747834
"Ultimately, the Occupy Wall Street protests have already succeeded. The movement has successfully re-focused the nation’s debate on who ruined the economy and who should be targeted, shifting blame away from immigrants, unions, and other groups of working people, like public employees."

Regardless where this was compiled, the timeline speaks for itself:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM[/youtube]

And Hitler finds out he was pwn3d in the housing fall-out:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmcf4Y3lGM[/youtube]

Past non sense, Conan.


Yesterday..... http://current.com/shows/countdown/blog/complete-transcript-for-oct-03-2011
"In case you missed Hank’s comparison of Obama to Hitler, Gretchen Carlson actually kind of called him out on it." Fair enough?

The Buffet Reagan Rule....looks like Obama channeling plagiarizing Ronnie: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44766631#44766631

(http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=null08569178-ED70-1455-1CC2-97EA1251DC7A.jpg&width=600)
(http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=nullD78DB693-A961-04C3-B2AC-5876E7714750.jpg&width=600)

It's different when the old white man says it vs. the dashing young urbanite.

'Excuse me while I whip this out!'

That's about the only part of that scene you can type here without getting the sheriff on your butt.

Nooooooooo it's Bush's Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuulllllllllllttttttttt!

Don't you remember?  There was a whole 4 year campaign based on this!
(http://moodyeyeview.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/i-am-bushs-fault-obama.jpg)

Oh Gassie, quit channeling for Guido.

Obummer is OUR fault. Accept responsibility and make the most of life!

I'm not idealistic enough to accept the blame for President Obama.

I could have dealt with four more years of the Clintons and I think America would have done a whole lot better under them.  McSame never had a chance.

Deputy Inspector Anthony V. Bologna pepper-sprays peaceful protestors as well as other police officers:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moD2JnGTToA[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IroRe9hALf8&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

an example of an educated opposition as opposed to Norquist's nerds? Looks like the video is baited to me.

Is this the skinny? http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/  "When I saw the third word in the article, "Adbusters," I immediately looked away from my screen and said out loud "Oh dear God.  The poor kids..." The article clearly states Adbusters' hand in perpetuating this into being, which is exactly the problem.  Adbusters makes caviar socialists like Dominique Strauss-Kahn look like the salt of the earth, saviors of the working class.  They basically prey on college students and twenty-somethings unsure of themselves but with distrust in authority, selling their massive and expensive glossy magazine.  The pages reek of anarchist navel-gazing and wankery and self-important "down with corporations/big business/capitalism" screeds that really say little if anything at all. "

"But worst is Adbusters' method of "protesting," called "culture jamming."  .... "Hopefully, this event will expose Adbusters for the overwrought attention-whoring joke it is.  At least the Teabaggers have an actual purpose."  :(

But then there's always the weird journalism coming out of the fox tank.  After Relentlessly Promoting Tea Party Protests, Fox Attacks Wall Street Protesters http://mediamatters.org/research/201110030017

I think the occupy protester represents the quiet majority of patriotic America while the Teabagger represents the loud minority of backwater secessionist  America. Just how it looks. I could be more blunt but I might get smoked by the TNF admin.

We must take the blame for what placed Obama in office. I know that while I told everyone the war in Iraq was wrong I did not say it loud and strong enough. I know that when there were too many people buying houses they knew they couldn't afford I failed to shake them to their senses. I know that when tax cuts are made the end game is to shrink government and I was reluctant to remind others of the great potential of empowering the greatest government in the world by feeding the beast and strengthening regulations and improving the public education system. I failed to yell "stop" to pay day loans. I screwed up not pointing out that derivatives were nothing more than a scheme of conflicting financial instruments created from thin air that might turn into a world wide crisis. I still scream for single payer health care but Big Pharma, Insurance companies, and private hospitals have bought up DC. Nobody's fault but you, me, and the corporations hiding behind their Supreme tree.

OK, it's your fault.

Gee, what ever happened to blaming GWB?

You can only burn a witch once.

Hell, you should have run for office...

Just found out from my "mole" that the Occupy Tulsa group will be protesting the Chase bank at 66th and Sheridan during lunch today.  I hope they wave to me.  I'm interested to see what their signs say.  I'll get some pics if I can.

Don't drop the blame in my lap, I didn't vote for Obama, and I didn't voted for W either time. Also I never voted for Inhoffe, Mayor or otherwise.

Dang!

The official Occupy Wall Street protest in front of my office has proved to be a bit underwhelming.
Photo Removed

I had to remove that photo.  I just got $120 for it and 3 others.  Who'da thunk it.

Apparently the group failed to tip off the media and those members of the media that troll this site wanted photos.

Did you vote for someone else in those elections or just not vote?

^^^ I did vote, and I voted for someone else. I always exercise my right to vote.

Here's a link to a pair of these:

(http://www.cappelsinc.com/product_images/catalog19950/65985_Zombie_Eyeglasses.jpg)

http://www.cappelsinc.com/catalog.asp?prodid=733066&showprevnext=1

Best I could do for now.

Herman Cain sums up my opinion on this subject:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euw7aW1CAaw&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

I heart the Hermanator!  The more he talks, the more I like him. 

So you obviously are not a racist.

I like that Herman Cain supported the bailouts and is firmly pro affirmative action.

When republicans learn this, he will drop in the polls.

I don't seem to recall you going out and photographing the Teabaggers here when they were rambling about. I guess you're not balanced.

He's assuaging my white guilt.

They weren't in front of my office window.  If they were, I would.  Especially for a hundred bucks!

I'm going to McGills on Occupy Tulsa tonight!

That's one way to stimulate the local economy!!  :D

Thanks, Guido.  I saw some on e-bay too, but I'm thinking about hitting some local novelty stores this weekend.

Van Jones on America's Uprising: It's Going to Be an Epic Battle

http://www.truth-out.org/van-jones-americas-uprising-its-going-be-epic-battle/1317822661


 a few excerpts:


"The Tea Party is an open-source brand," Jones explained, "that 3,528 affiliates use; none of them own it." For all their talk of rugged individualism, Jones said, the forces behind the Tea Party "have enacted the most collectivist strategy for taking power in the history of the republic."

"We went from hope to heartbreak in about a minute...We have the wrong theory of the presidency."

As for the rise of the right, Jones said, "I'm not mad at the Tea Party. I'm not mad at them for being so loud. I'm mad at us for having been so quiet the past two years."


Van Jones: We want to be a support center like FreedomWorks is a support center [for the Tea Party]. Everybody focuses on the money from the Koch brothers; they focus on Fox News TV. But they don't focus so much on infrastructure, and the relationship between the institutions. So we've tried to focus in on that.


 "So it's just going to be an epic battle now between the worst people in America, the most selfish people in America, and the most selfless. And that's going to be amazing"

wait and we will see....come Nov. 17, we may wake up to the American Dream team.

and there's this: Something Big Is Happening: Occupy Together Wednesday 5 October 2011
by: Jim Hightower, Truthout

"This is not your grandfather's tightly organized protest. In fact, it's intentionally loose -- there is no "leader" or leadership council. Instead, group decisions are reached through a consensus-based democratic process. With no faith in traditional politics or conventional media, the mostly young protestors have taken to the streets to make their points, using their well-honed "culture of the web" to organize, strategize, harmonize and mobilize.

Their Liberty Square encampment might look chaotic at first, but look again. It includes a medical clinic, media center, cafeteria and library. Food? Their widely viewed website lets anyone in the world go online and have pizzas delivered to them from a local shop. They even produce their own newspaper, appropriately named the Occupied Wall Street Journal."



http://www.truth-out.org/something-big-happening-occupy-together/1317837367


I'm thinking the NYC cops have done them a great service entrapping, macing, and arresting peaceful demonstrators. You can't buy that type of publicity.

This party was made for you.

Think Occupy Wall St. is a phase? You don't get it
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/05/opinion/rushkoff-occupy-wall-street/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


Here. More proof Biden needs to go: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/biden-wall-street-protesters-lot-common-tea-party-174258972.html
The "occupiers" are making the GOP/Teabaggers look like a, well, tea party.

An Open Letter to Wall Street http://www.truth-out.org/open-letter-wall-street/1317680703

"Let's face it: the mess outside your office is your doing. You and your friends bought this democracy wholesale - ah, yes, the irony of freedom is found in the way you were able to corrupt so many legislators with your money, always legally, because the legislators you bought are the ones writing the laws covering political contributions, and thus the wheel of corruption turns and turns - and now you want this democracy to do your bidding after the bill for your excess and fathomless greed has come due."

"My little nightstick's gonna get a workout tonight"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBxPzhXFT6c[/youtube]
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/10/06/2011-10-06_occupy_wall_street_protesters_post_video_of_cop_bragging_my_nightsticks_gonna_ge.html?r=news

Updated Manifesto

David Harsanyi | October 5, 2011

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men, women, and transgendered—and any other human who is able to elude the tyranny of work for a couple of weeks—are created equal. We gather to be free not of tyranny, but of responsibility and college tuitions. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that a government long established and a nation long prosperous be changed for light and transient causes. So let our demands* be submitted to a candid world.

First, we are imbued with as many inalienable rights as a few thousand college kids and a gaggle of borderline celebrities can concoct, among them a guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment and immediate across-the-board debt forgiveness—even if that debt was acquired taking on a mortgage with a 4.1 percent interest rate and no money down, which, we admit, is a pretty sweet deal in historical context...

...but down with the modern gilded age!

We demand that a Master of Fine Arts in musical theater writing, with a minor in German, become an immutable human right, because education is crucial and rich people can afford to fund unemployment checks until we find jobs or in perpetuity, whichever comes first.

We demand a minimum wage of $10, no ... make it $20. We earned it. And we demand the end of "profiteering," because there is no better way to end joblessness than stopping the growth of capital. We also demand a maximum wage law, because selfish American dreams need a firm ceiling.

We demand the institution of direct democracy, because if a bunch of people say it's OK, it's OK. And everyone deserves to have his or her voice heard. Except Mr. Moneybags, who we demand stop contributing his own money to candidates we disagree with, to issue groups we loathe, and to lobbyists who do not work for organizations featuring "Service," "Employees," "International" and/or "Union" in their title.

We demand the end to bailouts and corporate subsidies, unless we're talking about companies that feature sunflowers or sun rays in their logos, because that's the kind of morally gratifying institution we approve of, and thus, they should totally be fast-tracked and bailed out with your money to bring the fossil fuel economy ("the economy") to an end.

We demand the end to a corrupt Wall Street ("Apple" "your 401(k)") because banks hold too much power. We demand that government consolidate authority so that elected officials can make prudent choices for us. All that cash in banks was printed by the war god Mars and has nothing to do with the voluntary deposits by ordinary Americans, so we do not consider this theft.

We demand the end to corporate censorship, because if we can't force private news organizations to run the types of stories with which we agree, there can't be a healthy democracy. So actually, we demand the end of all corporate news organizations in the name of free speech.

We demand the end to health profiteering, because everyone knows that all the wondrous and lifesaving advances in modern medicine were invented in the People's Democratic Republic of Laos. Smart people work for the good of humanity, not because they're greedy.

We demand these rights because of the mass injustice of being able to freely protest against racism and corporatism without any real fear of imprisonment in the most diverse city on earth. And to the wiseguy who walked by the other day and claimed that I'd be writing this manifesto with a quill pen on parchment paper if it weren't for capitalism, we have two words for you: Koch brothers. Think about it.

This is the fifth communiqué from the 99.9 percent. We are occupying Wall Street, and we're not going home until it gets really cold.

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

But...but...but...the Tea Party Gas? Excellent description by Harsanyi, but I agree with others that you should post links.

Exit question: There seems to be lots of white people in this group; racism?

(http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/10/02/167356-occupy-wall-street-protest.jpg)

Looks like a bunch of white haters to me.  Their anger is obviously racist since they are angry at a capitalist system run by a black fellow.  That would be the construct anyhow if they were young Republicans.

That was a joke like most of his posts


You and I disagree on the group apparently.

Soon it won't be important. 

The AFL-CIO has issued orders for members to take over the protests.  They have or will be contacting each local group and throwing lots of organization and money behind the effort.  Poor stupid kids won't even know what hit em!

I'm shocked at that revelation. :D

I'll point out the crazies and you back them for office.

I see a new gig coming for the carpenter's union protestors.

The Occupy protests may be a good way for migrant workers to make money.  An organizer for the DC protest has admitted paying people to join the protest.  Apparently there was not enough diversity.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/06/organizer-admits-to-paying-occupy-dc-protesters-video/

Gosh, a plant you think?


Who starts a real story with "a liberal organizer"?

You're right, it's kind of an oxymoron.

There is a failure in this country to understand income mobility.  It's one of the best attributes of a free society like ours and nowhere is it more prevalent than in the United States.  Unfortunately, it's very nature creates statistics that are easy for politicians to twist.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vDhcqua3_W8[/youtube]

Have you seen the Tea party?  Any stats can be twisted.  They just have to find people that will believe their crap. 

If the 24 hour cycle says it enough and the pundents keep repeating it, they will believe.

1)  So $54k household income per year is "rich" according to this video.  He refers to them as "the rich"
2)  totally doesn't mention the effect of having 20% more dual income households on household income.
(http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dual-income-workers.jpg)

3) "The poor got rich faster"  $27k a year for a household isn't getting "rich".  They had income gains at a faster rate.
4) As of 2005 the bottom 20% made $0 to $18,500 a year.  So that $27k figure from 1991 to 2005 went down quite a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_States)

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/wallstreet.jpg)

(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/300999_170215046395841_138740336209979_353665_1039908608_n.jpg)

Oh no, EC is "concerned about the mobs"

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/07/8206043-cantor-says-hes-concerned-by-mobs-at-occupy-wall-street (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/07/8206043-cantor-says-hes-concerned-by-mobs-at-occupy-wall-street)

Confronting the Malefactors
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: October 6, 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/opinion/krugman-confronting-the-malefactors.html?_r=2&smid=fb-nytimes&WT.mc_id=OP-SM-E-FB-SM-LIN-CTM-100711-NYT-NA&WT.mc_ev=click


"There’s something happening here. What it is ain’t exactly clear, but we may, at long last, be seeing the rise of a popular movement that, unlike the Tea Party, is angry at the right people."

I bet they even eat food they didn't grow themselves

John Stewart Riffs on 'Occupy Wall Street'

http://vodpod.com/watch/15513593-john-stewart-riffs-on-occupy-wall-street

genius

Telling it like it is.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=s0qkbQfszp0#![/youtube]

Bwahahaha.

So they are basically anarchists.

And smelly.

No, they are just angry at people who have a nice life.

They were never taught to harness corporate greed and ride it like a pony.

GIDDYUP PONY!

Sorry.  I'm in a really good mood today because a group of greedy corporations accepted a proposal I sent, and an evil bank has agreed to finance it for them.  Now I have to put in an order for some components supplied by another evil company who only cares about profits.  If I end up ordering enough hardware they will send me another free iPad that I will give to my wife or just use as a coaster.

Coaster?  Use it as a mouse pad.  It's about the right size.  That is, of course, if you still use a mouse.

Guid, it's Portland, second only to SF for funky people smells!

You're right. But who does that lowlife thinks is going to be impressed with his wisdom/insight? For that matter, who would hire I someone that looks like that? I mean, besides our public schools.

It's probably petulli you are smelling.

Most of what he said is accurate.  Capitalism works great for everybody if greed isn't involved.  Greed is what causes the problems and I think what makes the US different than 50 years ago.  I am not sure what he means by "get greed out" though.  Judging by his comments it might mean socialism.  Greed isn't making money its how you make the money.  If you could make $100 million profit or $101 million profit but 100 people have to die and you choose the $101 million that is greed.

Seriously, people are paying folks to show up at Occupy protests?

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/06/organizer-admits-to-paying-occupy-dc-protesters-video/

You're late on this party.

Yeah, I know. I wanted someone to give me money to just stand around. Envy is ugly.

Occupy [City X] should worry Obama most of all. When you look at who's attending these rallies, it's by and large the kids who canvassed for him and who voted for him en masse in '08.  He tapped into and helped shape this generation's political engagement and sense of civic duty (and don't laugh -- that's what's driving these folks, in tandem with the economics of the country)  But these kids are are very pointedly not rallying for Obama or his policies.  In some cases they're actively lumping him in with the people they're demonstrating against.  If this is true, that means Obama's lost or is starting to lose this crucial chunk of voters who helped elect him. 

In other words, this is how Obama gets primaried.   

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!  Thank you!  That's the funniest thing I've seen all day.

You guys are great.  When you're not trying to minimize the impact of this protest you try to draw false equivalency between Occupy Wallstreet and the Tea Partiers. The worst outcome on the left is that the kids are turned off by politics and stay home on election day.  On the right, it's far more likely that the TP brigade will have to hold their noses and vote for Romney...or just stay home.

People are smarter (or greedier) then we were back in the protests of the 1960s. During the start of the tea parties, people were also paid to hold signs. They also got a free trip around the country and lodging and food for their families. Many of them were some of the first people laid off and were from Cali. There were a couple extremely wealthy people who hired them. It sounds like it was more profitable then to hold a sign that says, "Get your income tax prepared here."

The problem they encountered is that many of those people didn't really know what they were protesting and when they were interviewed, some didn't even know what the original tea party was. You'd have thought it would've been the end of the movement, but obviously it wasn't.

The "occupiers" are not traitors like you Teabaggers are: http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/david-koch-flees-abc-news-over-iran-scandal-

Koch heads are bad for America....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6k2SOaEWsw[/youtube]


Ralph Nader gave us Bush II..... You know what Bush II gave us.

Nice (if accurate). Can I see the photos of the teabaggers crapping on police cars?

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/08/article-2046586-0E481DB700000578-865_634x366.jpg)


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046586/Occupy-Wall-Street-Shocking-photos-protester-defecating-POLICE-CAR.html

Actually....no....because teabaggers crap on the Constitution, American history, and the truth.

 ???  Care to give an example of how the teabaggers crapped on the Constitution?

http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/2010/10/teabaggers-constitutional-hypocrites.html

" But the reality is that Tea Partiers engage with the Constitution in such a selective manner, and for such nakedly political purposes, that they’re clearly relying on it more as an instrument of self-affirmation and cultural division than a source of policy inspiration."

Let's start with Sharon Angle's "Second Amendment solutions" and the definition of treason in the Constitution:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying
War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving
them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted
of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the
same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

A person who advocates taking up arms against our government is likely guilty of treason, don't you agree?

You have to wonder whether or not these sort of distortions are deliberate.
It makes it look like people are protesting industry and jobs, rather than protesting the greedy Wall Street speculators that continued to be rewarded with tax money even after they ran the economy to the ground.
Surely no one would want to distract us from that...

You mean, like the Civil War? I guess the south was guilty of treason. And that whole "First Amendment" things also seems to vitiate your point. Ed, the problem you and others have is that you think the "Tea Party" is some massively structured corporate being. It's not. It's made up of individuals and small groups all over the country gathering and voicing positions they believe in which happen to have a similar thematic with other like-thinking groups. Are there public persons that believe to be spokesmen? Yes. But I have been to a few of these tea party events and never once crapped on the constitution. I don't recall seeing others crapping on the constitution either. To the contrary, I think this was the oath both my wife and I once took:


The tea party/teabaggers were relentlessly attacked as fringe, racist, violent, blah blah blah. I post a pic of some douchebag actually crapping on a law enforcement vehicle and thee is NO condemnation. Instead, I read irrelevant straw man argument.

Really?  So the Koch's haven't had a hand in funding the Tea Party?  Wow, you need a shovel to get your head out of the sand?

Playing NYPD as victim is a serious detachment from reality.  
Most of us have actually been paying attention to what has been going on:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgr3DiqWYCI[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6HbOcRDoMo


“This weekend a few troublemakers turned a peaceful protest against Wall Street greed into a violent burst of chaos. The troublemakers carried pepper spray, and guns, and were wearing badges”.

Hey, what's a little funding among friends?  The right does it.  The left does it. No biggie as long as the protests are non-violent.

Unless all the pictures I've seen are Photoshopped, some of them are protesting industry and capitalism in general.  Hopefully, they are a minority as I perceive the true wackos in the Teaparty to be a minority.

I posted this as a tounge in cheek comment, a friend sent it to me for a laugh. Here nis a link to Olbermans reading of their demand:

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcurrent.com%2Fshows%2Fcountdown%2Fvideos%2Fspecial-comment-keith-reads-first-collective-statement-of-occupy-wall-street&h=BAQCbmBTlAQBEigvuYMX7DnaM_1L5gJdJA1SW61SxmGpN8g (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcurrent.com%2Fshows%2Fcountdown%2Fvideos%2Fspecial-comment-keith-reads-first-collective-statement-of-occupy-wall-street&h=BAQCbmBTlAQBEigvuYMX7DnaM_1L5gJdJA1SW61SxmGpN8g)

Never said that the left didn't do it.  But for someone to say the TP is a 'grassroots' organization is hooey.

I'll give you 50% hooey.  It started out grass roots then gained financial support.

You neatly sidestepped my question, Guido, but that's expected.  And I was directing your attention to Sharon Angle's take on the Second Amendment, not the First.

But let's consider a comparison between crapping on a police car and advocating the overthrow of a duly elected government.  I'm thinking that you'd contend that the actions of a lone politician like Angle do not reflect the views of all the teabaggers, yet the lone protester crapping on a law enforcement vehicle reflects badly on the whole Occupy Wall Street movement.  Am I wrong in thinking that?

How do we know that pic was taken where and when you say? How can you tell he's part of a movement other than a bowel? Give me a break. NO, no condemnation for potential fiction when during the past two years you have defended the GOP/Teabagger alliance built on fear while mocking the peaceniks, the tolerant, and the progressives.

I always know when you ignore my replies to your reddish comments that I have your cause countered.

And for future reference, I'm the only clown here at TNF. Take your crap elsewhere....

Lone protester? Look at this loser:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZZ710w6GXI&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]

Turns out is was a complete fabrication:

http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2011/09/26/video-liberal-protestor-chokes-on-silver-spoon/

Here's intelligent dialogue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Y9CARUwio&feature=player_embedded#!

and another (NSFW):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akseCQziD7E&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]

(Why do idiots take their shirt off when when they want to fight--sheesh, protect your skin)

Plainly, these people want to overthrow the country:

(http://photos.upi.com/rc/collection/1317903619930/Occupy-Wall-Street-protests.jpg)
As for sidestepping the issue, you tried the classic logic fallacy of a straw man to somehow explain away the grotesque conduct of that protester crapping on a car. What does Sharron Angle have to do with that? Nothing.

A revolt to overthrow imbalance and the lack of flexibility with our government is not an attempt to overthrow the country. It may well be a revolt to overthrow the big money and power of big money to buy our government. It's a movement to stop imbalance unless you are a reactionary. It's people calling for calibration and it's a social movement where people are saying no more exclusion of the mainstream center that does not want war and desires further punishment for the culprits who brought our economy to its knees.

Do you really like a government by special interests or do you prefer by and for the people? The %1 pays for campaigns. We need politicians who refuse to take contributions from these special interests. We need a massive social understanding to reform campaign shenanigan donations. That is going to continue to be the core support for the change.

Why do you like our democracy to be controlled by wall street? Can't wall street take a back seat to the citizenry? Wall street will not disappear nor be diminished by change.

Are you against social safety nets? What does our country need, Mr. Burns? Lower taxes? Try empowering our system instead of handing it over to pawns of the %1.

SHENANIGANS!!!!!!!!!!

The Occupy Wall Street rallies are becoming more like the Jugendbund rallies of the 1920's in Germany. Mindless call and response and minorities becoming fearful. We are watching the birth of a new dangerous form of Marxism.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI[/youtube]

Wow, have you been hanging out with the 'kraut?

You've got a pretty shaky grasp of your mid-century authoritarian regimes. 

Gassie, please explain the differences in 1920's Germany to today's United States. I need a paralleled comparison to understand where you are coming from. Otherwise, you need to get a Dumb Okie Tulsan badge from the mayor.

You must be kidding.  It would be much more appropriate to make that comparison to the Teabaggers.  But that isn't very close either.

I consider the Occupy movement and the Tea Party movement very interesting for their simplistic methods of communication and sophisticated method of organization.

Both groups have become forces in politics very quickly. They each have logical arguments but can't completely resonate because they are so attractive to the extremist edge of political thought. The far left and far right just overwhelm the center and the mainstream media believes it is their job to show us the fringe.

It is hard to bake a cake if the outer edges get all the heat.

Yep.  Knee jerk reaction to a knee jerk reaction.

I would have to agree with that assessment.  That was basically the gist of this thread.  At the inception of OWS, it began to formulate itself as an opposition force to the Tea Party.  The emotional components of competing ideologies.

Add me to the like list on this post.  Very good analysis.

Where'd you see that?

It's interesting, however, to compare the difference in the speeds at which each gained traction.
In the beginning the Tea Party was all about frustration at a black man in the White House, but it gained standing when it got funding and celebrity endorsements.

Wow!  Now you have to go there.  I don't think race has anything to do with either movement.  I think group representation does.

Race may not have anything to do with the Teabag "movement." It has everything to do with the formulation of their attitudes.

Still, it's easy to witness the diversity in the Occupiers mobsters.

And a supreme court decision on campaign financing.

I don't see racial bias in either movement.

The Tea Party are emotional conservatives, angry because the resources of working people are being diverted to subsidize _______.  They admire  capitalism as a means to create wealth because it offers opportunity to those willing to take risk.

The Occupiers are emotional liberals, angry because they want more resources diverted to subsidize _______.  They despise capitalism as a means to create wealth because it does not provide security.




  

Liberals like to hang the racist label on the Tea Party because it makes it look big and evil.  You can bet your bottom dollar that if Herman Cain starts looking like a real threat, they will somehow cobble together that he's racist. 

Already are.  Al Sharpton spent his whole show on Friday talking about how Herman Cain is not really black.  He basically classified him as an "Uncle Tom" without using those terms.  Today he is addressing the OWS crowd with the same message.

OWS sounds like a wonderful experience.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/increasingly-debauched-are-sex-drugs-poor-sanitation-eclipsing-occupy-wall-street/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/increasingly-debauched-are-sex-drugs-poor-sanitation-eclipsing-occupy-wall-street/)

Not really a fan of The Blaze but found this interesting:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/al-sharpton-debates-whether-herman-cain-is-authentically-black/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/al-sharpton-debates-whether-herman-cain-is-authentically-black/)

I see it this way:
The Tea Party (the original Teaparty not whatever they've morphed into)  are conservatives that dislike taxes. They want the government to provide governmental services using less tax payer money and less waste and they want the goverment to divest and privatize as much as possible. For example moving welfare services to churches, schools to charter, roads to for-profit toll.


The occupy people are liberals that are upset that big business could take the US (and arguably the world) to the brink of financial collapse, be bailed out and suffer no consequences (in fact its BAU paying bonuses with bail out money), while millions of Americans were put out of work or never had the opportunity for work even though they followed the American rules for success and racked up large student loan debts.


Both of these groups feel that the political system has failed them, both have validity to their points of view.

+1.

I realized that I've always thought that the Tea Party was explicitly motivated by economic concerns but as you point out that's not actually true.  It's been specifically about size of government. OWS, on the other hand, is obviously about economics.

From the New York Times:


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/opinion/sunday/occupy-wall-street-and-the-tea-party.html?pagewanted=1&sq=Occupy Wall Street&st=cse&scp=4 (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/opinion/sunday/occupy-wall-street-and-the-tea-party.html?pagewanted=1&sq=Occupy Wall Street&st=cse&scp=4)

I would have to agree, and I would add that in both movements there is only a very small percentage of the group that actually understands why they are there.  The rest are simply looking for something to follow.

We are the 53%:

http://the53.tumblr.com/page/2

I doubt us 53% have much time to protest.

That would probably be the kids this protestor is talking about (from DBack's cite from The Blaze)

Or would want to sleep on the streets in NY.

You all seem to have an issue with civil disobedience.

Again, this is not an answer to bullies and corporate pawns but more a ground swell of frustration from those that need a hand up.

The Dims are not likely to embrace the WSO in any way shape or manner like the GOP has Teabaaging.

Are you related to saurkraut? My response was on a discussion of the Wall Street Occupation, so thanks for fixing something that didn't need fixing.

Tried to fix that but some things you can't fix....

Seems like many of you dislike the selfless while favoring the selfish. The GOP/Teabagger crowd's having a problem with non violent free speech civil disobedience?

Do you find it strange the Chinese businessman also hate unions?

Children of the corn versus the "hippies"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau))

I see it as exactly the opposite.  This is the march of sloth.  Demands of security over opportunity.

You don't have to be wealthy to be greedy.

Greed does not create wealth, it destroys it.

Cite some examples because this is mostly complete BS.  Though there might be a few exceptions to the rule.  Greed is a selfish desire for something, money, power, etc.  Almost all politicians are greedy.  Pretty sure no congressmen or senator isn't creating wealth.

Diane Sawer having an Obama moment. The OWS has spread to over 1,000 countries?

http://newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/DianeSawyer-thousandcountries-2011-10-10.mp3

Who is creating wealth? And why should those with wealth be required to do anything with it?

Objection, relevance.

To get wealthy, greed takes the drivers seat. There's nothing wrong with that. But once you're wealthy (Koch heads etc.) then to refuse to spread that wealth is wrong. To continue to build on that wealth while holding others down through political power instead of offering a helping hand up is criminal.

This movement is about how we fund our elections and politicians. It's at the core of special interests over the greater good for society.

And greed does not destroy wealth, but it can inhibit growth. When those in power ignore the disparity in opportunity there is trouble at their door.

"Their walls are built of canon balls their motto is don't tread on me." (Hunter/Garcia)

\

You are forgetting that there is a fininte amount of wealth.  It cannot be created, only spread around.

Well, maybe not.
 
 ;D

Greed is desire without reason.

Greed is the primary downfall of all people, wealthy and poor.  

Greed causes people to make decisions based emotion alone.  Common sense gives way to desire.  Morality gives way to desire. Responsibility gives way to desire.

Greed is the foundation of the deadliest of sins.

I thought you had to be lucky to get wealthy?  You contradict yourself.

To get wealthy, requires hard work, determination, innovation, or perhaps luck, but the lucky do not stay wealthy.


Here is the question I need you to answer:
If wealth is your goal, how does greed help you to attain it?

You still don't have an actual example where wealth is destroyed and Gordon Gekko disagrees.

Really?
You can't figure this one out for yourself?

Pretend that below is a list of every company that has fallen for insider trading:

Pretend that below is a list of politicians that have fallen for taking bribes/illegal contributions:

Pretend that below is a list of formerly wealthy people in jail who compromised their ethics in pursuit of wealth:

Now pretend that there is a list of every person who has been imprisoned or executed for using force against another for the purpose of acquiring money:


Now it's your turn.  Give me an example of where greed created wealth without ultimately destroying it? 
Be careful, there is a trap here.

That's it?

In 1979 Ford initiated a recall that cost the company $20 million dollars, but before that, Mother Jones published articles showing that Ford conducted cost analysis against human life.  A legacy that will haunt the automaker for ever, and remains a case study in ethics.

Imagine how much more wealth Lee Iacocca and Ford could have created if greed had not taken control.  Instead, he was fired from Ford because of the Pinto debacle, as was many on his team of advisers.

You have provided an excellent example of what happens when greed is present.

I noticed something else that distinguishes the OWS from the TPM:
The TPM while they dispise government are very cagey but adept at politics. They immediately found a party affilitation as a faction to the slight right of the GOP and found representatives to place in government roles.

The OWS group is ok with government (but feel let down by the administration and wall street collusion) but they are terrible at politics. Their message is muddy and no party is wooing them. You'd think some of these kids would be polisci's.

Why all the fuss about Octupi on Wall Street? You can find it in restaurants here in Tulsa.

Early in the Tea Party movement, there was much debate about creating a third party, but it was agreed that rather than fracture the Republican party and guarantee the re-election of President Obama, it would be wiser to work within the existing conservative movement in the Republican party and simply change the politics of that party at the ballet box. This saved them from the same fate that OWS will incur.

OWS lacks the discipline necessary to effect change.  Their very nature dictates that they will collapse into nothing more than a drunken party, that will then evolve into a police action.  

The major contrast is that one group contains conservative fringe, reverent to principled behavior, and the other contains the liberal fringe, reverent to ?????
 

I dont get why you can give credence to one set of disenfranchised Americans and dismiss the other set as whining babies

It's how Scott rolls.  You haven't figured that out by now?

I didn't.  I give credence to both.  

OWS is simply devoid of the leadership principals necessary to effect change.  They protest for the sake of protest.  Their message is strong and resonates with much of the public but they will waste that, because they will not seize the opportunity to work within a political framework that could give them the power necessary to make changes.  There are too many anarchists involved.

It depends very much what sort of change you mean.  Will OWS start electing and placing people in government?  Not likely any time soon.  Will they force the political dialogue back towards the center and possibly back into progressive territory?  Much more likely.  The energy seems to be increasing rather than dissipating, and it's doing so without the funding (the Koch Bros) and the organizing (Dick Armey, for instance) that the Tea Party brought in to increase its power.  I still think OWS is fragile and could collapse in on itself, but it looks to be getting stronger as it goes. 

Further proof that you don't get what they are saying. You dismiss what you don't understand.

Time will tell.

And you don't think that many of the people who have 'attached' themselves to the TPM don't do the same (protest for the sake of it)?  It's just in this instance, the TPM is bankrolled by the Koch brothers.  The OWS from what I understand started truly as people movement.

I'm not saying I don't identify or understand what the TPM is about.  But I would think two thirds or more of those people who would say that they align themselves with the TPM don't understand it either.  It smacks of Lonesome Rhodes.

Ford recalled in 1978, their stock price outperformed the DJIA until September of 1979.  Which other car companies followed the same path.  Not just Ford (because of the Pinto).  It followed the DJIA from about 1984 until about 1999.  I am not so sure its the Pinto that is their problem.  Oh, they made 2 billion dollars profit the year that Iacocca was fired.  It is difficult to compare Fords stock to other companies because most of the other US car companies filed for bankruptcy and reissued stock.

Here's what I meant:  Obama will not get a huge amount of flack during the 2012 election season from the Democratic power structure.  They've already come together behind him and are pumping money into his re-election campaign.  There will be no real way for any part of the dissatisfied left to register their dissatisfaction.  Something like OWS -- which consists of those unhappy folks, and who also happen to be a good chunk of the kids Obama himself helped politically mobilize in 2008 -- is going to organically register that dissatisfaction.  Long way of saying -- it's Obama's own people who are finally trying to push him back to the center (or slightly left).

very astute

You are probably very correct there.  In most of the interviews they all say different things.

Not sure where you are/were going with that.  :-[

I can't accurately tell the effects of the Pinto on Ford's valuation compared to other companies in the sector to determine that the Pinto did indeed make them underperform.  One would think it hurt them but it is difficult to determine how much.  I mean a year after they recalled the Pinto Chrysler went bankrupt.  So was that weakness in the car market that made Ford drop or the Pinto.

Yup, there are a lot of things wrong.

I can answer that.  ]
No one wanted to buy it because 27 people died fiery deaths.  The old Saturday Night Live commercials were hilarious.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zClbeeZK1I4&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

I love it when they use creativity. The Teabaggers can't do that guerrilla theater stuff. Takes too much thinking power. :D

I keep waiting for the Gee's here at TNF to post some infilltraitor sent to disrupt these peaceful demonstrations like what happened at the air and space museum (Smithsonian) the past weekend. Keep your eyes and ears open for sabotage from the right. It's their best WMD. That and depending on Hate Radio and  Faux Tee Wee lies....

I like fixing your jingo!

. . .and I love your avatar.

Your buddy O'Keefe's having fun.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aEq5w2-6X14[/youtube]

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsvt51CrgE1r4yt21o1_500.jpg)

LOL!

"Geeeeerrrrrrate!" TeatowntheTiger!

Actually you are one of the 53% because your income is greater than allowable deductions and credits.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bltfv093evI&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

More of the usual....DOUBLE STANDARD MOVEMENT? "This double standard of mocking and vilifying the 99 Percent Movement as misguided, irrelevant, or even dangerous, while embracing the Tea Party as a fresh populist cure for the nation’s ills, has been employed universally by the conservative echo chamber, with Fox News at its locus." (ThinkProgress)

Sheen, you are incorrect! I'm winning, but not like you describe.

It's spreading:
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320226_2140359510690_1297243211_31942153_370109500_n.jpg)
(http://cdn.tauntr.com/sites/default/files/userfilesimages/OccupySesameSt.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VDoRE4j4uZA/TpEG4-PAVcI/AAAAAAAAnjg/XjZhEcfatbw/s1600/111008-occupy-sesame-street2.jpg)
(http://cdn.tauntr.com/sites/default/files/userfilesimages/OccupySesameSt4(1).jpg)

Ben And Jerry's supports OWS in a statement

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/10/8255698-new-ice-cream-flavor-fat-cat-fudge-ripple (http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/10/8255698-new-ice-cream-flavor-fat-cat-fudge-ripple)

ThinkProgress?  Sounds like they are being co-opted by Soros. 

Soros? So what? Bring in the clowns villains! It's what you guys think holds water....

I don't see how it's any different than the Koch Heads that the left keeps bleating about

That's cool.  

Ben & Jerries is owned by Unilever foods now.  Paul Polman, their CEO can probably see the protest from his U.S. office.  He was paid $1.46 million salary last year, almost $3 million if you include the stock awards. They also own Knorr soups and sauces, Hellmann's mayonnaise, Dove soaps, Lipton teas, and a ton of other companies.  

Yes, but something tells me Ben and Jer still have some say....after all, the newest flavor is Schweddy Balls...and they have one named after a fellow "friend" Cherry Garcia....but Wavy Gravy has been discontinued :(

The right wants to make the accusations of astro turf because their teaparty movement was exposed as being hijacked and financed by the Koch brothers along with being marketed by Fox news. We all know what the greedy Koch brothers have to gain. What is to gain by financing the %99 movement?

A degree in "classical studies"? WTH business is hiring those people?

(http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsvbfeXIcS1r25y9yo1_500.jpg)

Evidently, none.

And it's apparently wall street's fault that there are no companies looking to open a "classical studies" department. It was just the other day that I desperately needed a classical studies person to take my order for the Super-sized Bic Mac meal.

But to be fair, it could be a useful undergrad degree for law school. But used in a career? Not getting it.

Actually, I think Tim Blake Nelson has the same degree from Brown.  Fortunately, he's got a great career in film.  Otherwise, I guess he would have had to go to work for Uncle George or one of his buddies.

A college degree is not a professional certification, and most people other than (licensed) professionals don't work in the same field their degree is in.

Academics, Publishing, or even oil. Yes, I know one smart fellow who works for Chesapeake Oil and has a degree in History. Makes a lot of money. You don't have to be a lawyer, an engineer, a doctor or a technology major to have job prospects.

A college degree is more than the specific knowledge you gain in 4 years.  One of my friends is an airline pilot.  He came up through the civilian pilot ranks and didn't have the college degree that would have been required to be an officer in the military.   When he wanted to get on with the airlines he was told he needed a college degree and the airline didn't care too much what the degree was in.  The degree represented that he was trainable and had the discipline to set a goal and achieve it. 

The technical disciplines require the specific knowledge as part of their "toolbox" which also includes learning how to analyze a requirement and develop a solution.  A fresh engineering school graduate is not yet an engineer. It takes some experience. 

Focus folks. This 99%er said HER job prospects were zero. Why didn't she pick an area of study where the prospects were better? Why does wall street, or this society, owe her anything with that degree? She chose a program of study and now regrets it. Tough.

Just which forum do you think you are on?
 
 ;D

In this economy, what would that area of study be?  Finance?  Law?  Should she have had the foresight to know that the economy was going to crash and unemployment would be stuck at 9% for years?

If she is going to graduate in 7 months and has made satisfactory progress in a 4 year program, she would have been a freshman in the fall of 2008.  The crash is Bush's fault.  Obama was elected in Nov 2008. When was it that the economy started to tank?

I will go along with the question of what would she have changed her major to, especially if she is not inclined to anything that could normally directly lead to a job. She did, however, have a the opportunity to change her program of study before sinking 4 years into classical studies.

Other than a career in theater, being an assistant librarian, or possibly going on to get a masters to teach others "classic studies" what would that degree be useful for?  Where does that degree even fit in a robust economy? I don't think you could get any more nebulous.  You know what that degree would say to me as a prospective employer?  She really still doesn't have a clue what she wants to do with her life yet and won't be a long-timer.  I'd give her 3 to 12 months before she's filling out applications for grad school or a second BA or BS.  Her job prospects aren't completely zero though.  She can become a bartender, wait tables, or go to work on a cruise ship. Those can all be fun and fairly rewarding occupations for someone her age.  Something tells me she's got a specific list of jobs she "won't" do.  So do a lot of unemployed people these days.

If you were a recruiter for a bank, brokerage firm, or manufacturing firm looking for mid-level management in this job market would you pick someone with a degree in classic studies or someone with a degree in finance, business, or even some sort of foreign studies?

How much luck do you think my daughter will have interviewing with Bank of America, General Motors, or Goodyear Tire and Rubber Co. with her degree in interior design in 7 months?

I wasn't blaming anyone for anything.  The unemployment rate has been at or near 9% throughout all of Obama's term.  That covers most of her time in college, I'm guessing.  

On a resume for most any job that doesn't require specialization (engineering, for instance), a classical studies degree reads as "Bachelor of Arts," and is as good as any other general studies degree.  She's eminently employable.  If there're jobs to be hired for, that is.

I have a degree in Creative Writing and have been hired over and over again to sell things for people. 

She (the classics major) could fit in any part of a management structure that requires critical thinking and the ability to express one's self succinctly.  Or she could get a job working for one of the many legendary small businesses that our country supposedly produces.  In that area, as you probably know, however you present on paper goes only so far with the owner of the company.  Just as much, it's how the owner feels about you. 

Creative writing?  I would have never guessed!  :)

Of course you keep getting hired and still could if you had to make a job change in this economy.  You likely have a proven track record of success and your written and oral communication skills are excellent from what I know of you.  You have enough real-world experience now that hiring you represents far less risk to an employer who is going to take you in and spend money to train you than does the girl right out of NYU or Columbia or wherever she's studying.

She's created her own paradigm though that she's worthless in the job market.  With that attitude she will be.  You are familiar with the Pygmalian effect, yes?  I'm willing to bet she's got the personality to go along with that: lacks self-confidence, lacks vision, and ambition in terms of career goals.

if she's gregarious and well-organized, she might do well at sales.  That's certainly an area I'd not thought of for her.  Even for people who aren't comfortable with the idea of being in sales immediately, there are plenty of environments you can put them in to hone sales skills like any sort of customer service work. 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEbDtLeEzx4&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]

"all mob and no lynch!"

A major of study is not a "what do you enjoy" moment.  It is a choice that young people must make so that they may market themselves and become successful, so that they can then have the resourses to do the things they enjoy.  It is a means not an ends.

Many kids get poor counsel, and come out of school now with degrees that will qualify them for little more than barista jobs.

I have hired people with no college education over those with useless degrees, because the very fact that they chose a degree in Gender Studies, or French Literature  speaks volumes about their decision making ability, and shows me where there ambitions lie.

College students should be forced to watch 2 hours of OWS interviews before meeting with their advisers to choose a major!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uE2M7g_IWSE#![/youtube]

At least now we know why they haven't been asked to leave.
http://www.businessinsider.com/occupy-wall-street-brookfield-properties-zuccotti-park-loan-guarantee-2011-10

Coming on the heels of the Solyndra debacle, the Obama administration has just approved a $168.9 million loan guarantee for the Granite Reliable wind farm project owned by Brookfield Asset Management (BAM).

Among its many holdings BAM owns Brookfield Renewable Power, which owns the Granite Reliable and it also owns Brookfield Office Properties, whose holdings include the now famous Zuccotti Park.

The Department of Energy finalized the loan guarantee less than a week after Occupy Wall Street protesters took to Zuccotti Park, and with the Obama administration's Tuesday endorsement of the protests, rumors are starting to circulate that this could be the reason Brookfield is allowing protesters to remain on its property.

The Granite Reliable Power Project under construction in Coos Bay, New Hampshire is the state's largest wind farm and the New Hampshire Union Leader questions why Brookfield would need federal subsidies at all, particularly following the bankruptcy of Solyndra.

Mayor Bloomberg's announcement Monday that protesters could remain as long as they liked, also raised a few eyebrows and it turns out he has a personal connection to Brookfield as well. The mayor's longtime domestic partner Diana Taylor is on the Board of Directors at Brookfield Properties along with John E. Zuccotti himself.

College wasn't always a glorified trade school.  A long time ago, people did go to college to study what they enjoyed and just become a more "rounded" person able to converse with their high society, independently wealthy friends about things that frequently don't matter.

Colleges have also become a path to a career as more middle class folks were able to attend.  Some careers require more specific studies than others.  My liberal arts classes at the University of Delaware were called "General Education".  They were intended to make me more than just an engineering geek. 

*facepalm*

Governor Fallin has a degree in Family Relations
Herman Cain has a degree in Mathematics
Rick Perry got a degree in Animal Science
Mitt Romney got a degree in English
Ronald Reagan got a degree in Sociology

For once I agree with gaspar.

IMO incest is wrong.

Why do you mock the people who make hiring decisions?  As much as you want to have an idealized view of what the job market should be and how job creators should go about hiring people, this is exactly how those decisions are made.

I used to be in the position of hiring and firing sales reps for a chemical company I worked for.  I looked more closely at the personal paradigms at the point I was brought in to the interviewing and screening process as well as what their resume told me about stability and being driven and goal-oriented.  If they didn't have any specific goals for themselves or their paradigm was the economy was too rough, I bounced them within a few minutes.

That young woman might have some goals, but it's really not obvious by her choice of major and her personal paradigm of what her job prospects are.  I would have to dig a lot deeper to see how qualified she was.  To be honest, if I had 25 resumes of recent college grads on my desk and needed to narrow it down to 15 first round interviews, her major would not be one that would have interested me in putting her in the first round unless I was looking to hire teachers or librarians, or as Gaspar said, a barista.

Your choice of major doesn't have to limit your job possibilities, but it certainly can limit them.

I agree with you:  look at the whole person and the achievements both in and out of school and decide to hire based on your considered judgement.  But that wasn't what Gaspar said.  He said he specifically hired people with less education if he found people with degrees he thought were frivolous or silly or whatever.  In my opinion, that's crazy and a complete misread of the value of a modern BA (or BS, or any 4 year college degree).  

EDIT:  Regarding the Classics major, we have no clue how driven or ambitious she is, and trying to discern that from her major alone is silly.  She may have had a clear career path in mind when she started, or she may have started doing something she loved and finished it up because she was several credits in and couldn't afford to change (that happened to me, BTW).  As much as Gassie wants us to be pragmatic and working for a career from kindergarten on up, it just doesn't happen that way.  There are mistakes and missteps and eddies and sometimes just bad decisions.  Surprise.  It's life. But coming away from college with a completed BA (in Classics, or Family Planning, or Basketweaving, or Underwater BB Stacking) should be considered an accomplishment, because it is. 

  

Here is what I look at, in the order that I look at it.

1. Work experience, and number of years at each job.  This tells me if the person will be able to perform, and will be happy working for me.  I want to see that the person has worked previous jobs for more than 2 years (preferably 5), and has advanced or taken on new roles at each. 

2. Innovation. When I hire someone I want them to advance, and that's done through innovation.  They should be able to tell me how they made the world a better place for their previous employer.  If I sense that they are looking for security, or they have a track record of "keeping their head down," I'm not interested.  I would advise them to seek government employment.

3. Education, or training that implies they make good decisions in their life, not decisions based on what feels good or is easy.  An educated staff is a weapon against your competitors, but it can also be a weapon against you.  Your education should point to your vocation, otherwise it is pointed at your head.

4. Awareness. If I interview someone and they haven't done their research on the company they are interviewing with, the product produced, the industry or the people, they likely will bring that same lack of diligence to the job. I am delighted when they have cyber-stalked me before the interview and know about my family, my co-workers, our products and competitors.

5. 2 Pages & one sentence.  No resume should ever be over 2 pages long (preferably one).  If it is, you will likely never make it to an interview. When I ask "Why do you want to work here?" the answer should be a single, well delivered, decisive sentence. It must establish the reason that I can't afford NOT to hire you.  My following questions will attempt to shoot holes in that so be ready to defend.

You know somethings messed up when students in Iran are protesting civil rights abuses in America...

Iranian students condemn crackdown on Wall Street protests
TEHRAN, Oct. 7 (MNA) – A number of students from universities across Tehran held a demonstration outside the Swiss Embassy to condemn the crackdown on protests on Wall Street.

Iran and the United States do not have diplomatic relations, and the Swiss Embassy in Tehran hosts the U.S. Interests Section in Iran.

The demonstrators advised U.S. police to refrain from using violence against protesters.   

December 2007 was the first month of recession for all the history challenged out there.

That is EXACTLY right and is what I have preached at any kid (mine and others) for years!  Trainable and able to complete a process/project - follow through from beginning, middle, to end.  (Kind of what ya get in a steroided way in engineering school.)

This is the most hilarious video of the OWS buffoons yet:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrPGoPFRUdc&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]

So wrong!  On so many levels!  If you had picked your carrier path based only on what made you marketable, I would truly feel sorry for you.  For every day of your work life!

If you don't do something out of having a passion and excitement about it - loving it!, you (the generic all encompassing everybody 'you') will be absolutely miserable and will NOT be the most productive contributor possible.  In fact, will make all around you miserable, too.

The kids have a wide range of talents across several areas (more than me) and I encourage them even today to find something they love, and do that for a career.  NO other path will work.  And our society cannot afford to compromise on the efficiency gain of employees loving what they do.  So far, kids have picked science and engineering fields - probably have a latent Asperger's gene running through to make them engineers.  (That's likely why there are so few engineers - there just isn't that much Asperger's in the population.)  I tried to guide them into more lucrative directions, but they would not be swayed.  Oh, well,... they will have to settle for NOT being a 1%er!

Truth hurts, don't it?

What truth? I want someone to pay for my education just because I want them to? This punk was so befuddled by the questioner he actually spoke what the left stands for.

I think he's been hitting this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww[/youtube]

That Miss Teen contestant answer is mega cringe-worthy.

Bachmann campaign hired her for vetting questions.

You mean like this?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlPY9AfQFqI&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]

Priceless.  I think she vetted Palin as well in ho' eight

Hey, it's worth a try.  He might find someone ****** enough to pay his tuition.

****** =  politically correct derogatory term of your choice describing a liberal.

And yet the 1%ers expect all the rest of us to subsidize them to the tune of hundreds of billions per year.  And they get it!!

Have heard one of the R candidates (Perry??) talking about how expiring the Bush tax cuts would "only" bring in about 400 billion...nowhere near enough to cover the deficits alone.  True.  (Can't remember for sure, but I think he said this applied to the top 400 or so that get the biggest break.)

The thing is that 400 billion they get to keep by enjoying the 15% tax bill leaves a gap that the rest of us are paying on now.  To make up for that, IF each of us 99%ers paid an EXTRA $1,000 per year, it would take 4 million of us to make that up.  So we would THEN have a situation where the 1%ers are paying their 15%, and the 99%ers are paying their 18 - 19% and then they get to pay an EXTRA $1,000 per year.

These people may not understand much, but they DO understand the wrongness and inequality and unfairness of the current situation.  As do more and more 1%ers out there.  Just not ours.

Did you see that boat?

My income has very little to do with your income.  Warren Buffet's income has very little to do with mine.

Did you see that boat?

That is the legacy of this protest.  The image that history will remember.

She could be President.....

"Nu-cu-lur"

This isn't true.. Republicans make a direct correlation of the Warren Buffets' of the world income to yours.  If he makes 5% less the whole economy collapses and you can't make any money.

(http://tomdiaz.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/obama_smoking_joint.jpg)

(http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/bush-cocaine.jpg)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VAoADbWw_SM#![/youtube]

Who owns the big tv networks?

I think there are more than 4 million in the 99% club.  There are approximately 310 million people in the US.  Figure about 1/4 of them pay income tax considering families and low income folks.  That would be 76,725,000 people in the 99% club. Using your example, 76,725,000/4,000,000 = 19.18.  Each of the 99%ers would only have to pay $1,000/19.18 = $52.13.  I think I can afford that.

UNFORTUNATELY, $1000 x 4 million people is only $4 Billion, not the $400 Billion you mentioned.  You missed two orders of magnitude.

For the 1%ers to carry this, they would average $400B/775,000 people = $516,129. each.  The 99%ers would average $5213. each.   Averages can be deceiving since even with a flat rate, 15% or the highest earned income bracket, those who make more pay more dollars.  (The issue of fairness is not part of this analysis.)   I am aware that this somewhat makes your point but what it really shows is that we are spending too much.  It doesn't matter who gets stuck with the bill, we can't pay it.

But there is about 22% of the population for whom math is not an important component in making a any economic point.  For them, terminology like "fair share" offers something they can grasp, even if it is an illusion.

Very interesting analogy here.  Liberals for the last three years have labeled the Tea Party as violent mobs, promoting violent rhetoric. 

ListenLogic, a cyber security firm that monitors online chatter is releasing public warnings about alarming changes in the rhetoric of the occupy groups.


http://abcnews.go.com/Business/occupy-wall-street-dark-side-hacking-threats-dirt/story?id=14706311
(ABC News) — Vincent Schiavone, founder and chairman of ListenLogic, a company that gives corporate clients advance warning of cyber attacks and of other threats circulating on the Internet, calls Occupy-related threats “alarming.” His company monitors a wide variety of online sources — including Facebook and Twitter postings and even posted church sermons — to see what topics, issues and grievances are increasing in volume, meaning in intensity and in number on the Internet.

An online “Occupy Threat Center” created by ListenLogic says the company’s analysis of “over one million social media posts” indicates a significant increases in all of the following:

Social media activity from Occupy supporters and activists promoting physical destruction and violent action.
Direct and specific threats from Occupy “hacktivist” groups against specific financial and law enforcement targets.
Social media posts, videos and images targeting: financial institutions that issue mortgages and student loans and that initiate foreclosures; corporate entities that received bailout money or government subsidies; companies that pay high executive salaries or bonuses; and companies perceived to be paying extremely low taxes.
ListenLogic is detecting, he says, a change in the tone of discourse about the so-called 1 percent richest Americans.

There still are postings that talk about taxing the 1 percent more severely or even throwing them in jail. “But then,” says Schiavone, “there’s an increase in ‘let’s kill’ them. We see ‘eat the rich,’ ‘kill the wealthy.’ There are images circulating of senior executives being decapitated, images of blood. Artists are releasing images of banks on fire.”

Such extremism, he hastens to point out, is not representative of the objectives of most Occupiers. “Is that the movement? Absolutely not. They have been trying to be peaceful and respectful.” But the movement harbors within it, he says, persons “a lot more radical.”

If this is to follow Alinski's rules, I anticipate that agitators in the groups will begin to make claims that they are or have somehow been threatened or assaulted by unidentified persons or groups, in order to move the larger group to violent action. This will serve as rebuttal to the reasons behind escalation. 

Though the actions of these groups will be quite predictable, they will be no less unfortunate.

Could that have more to do with one entity being more adept at social media than the other?

Or that some of the crowd are too broke to have a computer or iPhone?
Nah.

You mean like any other group trying to talk people into action ie evangelicals or the "Patriot" groups that popped up all over the place?

I doubt it.  There are far more Americans that identify themselves with the Tea Party than OWS, and far more websites/hashtags/participants in Tea Party related discussions than OWS. 

I think it is due more to the difference in the rules of protest adopted by each group.  The Tea Party falls on their constitutional rights to assemble peacefully and OWS embraces other texts such as Alinski's Rules for Radicals, as well as other materials.

If you research the various groups websites you will typically find reference to this, or individuals within the organization well versed in the tactics of agitation and social anarchy.

It's a difference in philosophy.

NY has just announced that they will close the park for "cleaning" tomorrow and the protesters will not be allowed to return with their belongings.  In other words, they will not be able to camp there any longer.  This is in obvious response to the escalation.

Nice.  Glad to see you're able to connect this to the conspiracy theories of '08.  If you could work Jeremiah Wright in there, too, that'd give me a real sense closure.

Why would that be conspiracy?  You can go to the various websites and find the actors, look up their social network sites or websites and see for yourself.  They aren't hiding this.  I doubt they would.  They are proud of what they believe in.

as opposed to:

Mayor Michael Bloomberg said on Monday that he’ll allow the Wall Street protesters to stay indefinitely, provided they abide by the law, marking his strongest statement to date on the city’s willingness to let demonstrators occupy a park in Lower Manhattan.
http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/10/bloomberg-occupy-wall-street-can-stay-indefinitely/

Yes.  This morning at 11, the mayor announced that the protesters would have to leave the park by tomorrow for "cleaning." After which they may return.  When they return, they will not be allowed to bring their belongings (tents/sleeping materials) with them.

New rules issued:
(http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/noticeows-423x1024.jpg)

To follow up on that.  I seriously doubt they will be allowed to return.  I'm willing to bet some major "health risk" will be magically discovered and they will be turned away indefinitely.

Good catch!  And yes, I missed the extra two zeros on the calculator when punching it in.  And you just made my point for me and showed that it is SOOO much worse than the case I was using as example!  Thanks!

Fairness IS the whole issue!

Goes to respect for the Constitution and all that nonsense Dr. Seuss stuff they taught us in school about 'equal treatment under the law'!  The 1%ers sure aren't treated equally under the law to the other 99%!  Blatantly un-Constitutional.

Twinkles!!!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaVvzTyMcls&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

What ever happened to the finger?

I wanted some better numbers than guessing how many taxpayers were in the top 1%, how much they paid, and how much we would need to increase their taxes to get an additional $400 Billion.

I found the info below on politico by Googling “one million income”.  It’s not Fox, no one should dispute the numbers in this article. I was surprised that only the top 0.1% earned $1 million or more.


Let's see if we can put the $400 B increase on those making $1 Million or more.

Average tax rate for $1million or more: 24.4%
Total income of 7 figure earners:  $726.9 Billion
Tax paid: $726.9B x 24.4% = $177,363,600,000.

Increase of 3%:
27.4% of $726.9 B = $199,170,600,000.

Difference: $21,807,000,000. No where near the $400 B increase (that won’t help much) by a factor of about 18 times.

Let's just add $400 B and find a rate:
 ($177,363,600,000 + $400B) / $726.9 B = $577,363,600,000 / $726.9 B = 79% overall average tax rate. That $400B increase would only cover about 1/3 of the deficit.
I think we will need to go lower than $1 Million income.

I need to know the circumstances of the 1470 (0.6% of 235,413) that paid no tax before I condemn them.  

1% of 140,000,000 taxpayers = 1,400,000 taxpayers.  I wanted to find out how much tax  the top 1% paid.  I found the info below for 2008 (a year earlier than the Politico numbers but probably close enough.)

The info below is from Kiplinger.  I put in income numbers in the calculator until it showed the tax paid by the top 1% rather than the top 0.1%.  


I didn't find the the average tax rate for the top 1% or the total taxable income by the top 1% (vs. the top 0.1%) to calculate the average rate.

It looks like in order to raise an additional $400 B from the top 1%, we will need to nearly double ({$450.9B + $400 B} / $450.9 B = 1.89 times) the tax paid by them.  That’s a bit more than the modest 3% touted by a lot of people.

Is that enough?  

They are just a bunch of morons. Let them have their sign language.

RA, you may find this useful:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The source data is here:

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=98123,00.html

On MSNBC's Morning Joe, DONNY DEUTSCH said he "hopes for a Kent State moment" at OWS so that their message will continue to resonate with the American people.

So now the left begins to hope for violence.  Sad!

Things are apparently getting ugly now.  The cleanup was postponed by Blumeberg because the protesters were threatening violence.  This morning they blocked off one end of the street, and NYPD has assembled in Battery park with riot gear and urban assault vehicles.  They have assembled barracades to funnel the crowd and protect Wall Street workers trying to get to their offices.

The police are no longer allowing the protesters on the street and one protester ran out in front of a police motorcycle and was run over and injured. Today will not be a good day.  The protesters and the police are fueled by rage.

Bloomberg:FAIL

Laughed at how truthful this is:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAOrT0OcHh0&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]

Thanks.

The Tax Foundation lists the top 1% being taxed at 23.27%.  From my previous analysis, to get an extra $400 Billion from them would put them at approximately 44% overall, not the marginal rate.  I personally think that is a bit high, especially since it would only cover about 1/3 of the deficit.  People need to realize that we are either spending too much or the bottom 99% cannot continue to pretend that everything can be paid for by the top 1%.

Don't see anything about incentive stock options.  That is the part of the discussion that is always dismissed by the 1%ers - it's always about how "we pay so much in dollars than anyone else".  And that is the overwhelming part of income that is universally ignored.  When there is a $1 million regular income, there is always a 5 to 120 million "bonus" and "stock option" income.  At 15%.  Rather than 25% or 30 or whatever.

That is the big free ride they have been enjoying for years.  And that has finally come to the awareness of many people, most of whom couldn't/wouldn't believe there is that much gross inequity in the system.  Probably a big motivator to the protests we see going on now.

Reminds me of a situation in the late 80s.  Some protesters wanted to stop a train (either military or nuclear stuff on it) and sat on the tracks.  One guy got run over and lost his legs.  Some of my friends were appalled that the train engineer didn't stop.  I stated that the protester could have easily moved off the rails, the protester willingly gave his legs for "the cause".

We'll see what happens in NYC.

You've been in the looking glass if you think things are getting ugly. Your grotesque comment is a fail.

Occupy Wall Street Has Already Won
How the movement has already shaken up American politics, and where it should go from here.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_best_policy/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_s_victory_it_has_shaken_up_american_politics_.html
"But until these protests, no political figure or movement had made Americans pay attention to these facts in a meaningful way. Indeed, over the long hot summer, as poverty rose and unemployment stagnated, the entire discussion was about cutting our deficit."
"There is much ground to cover before real reform, but as a voice challenging a self-satisfied, well-protected status quo, OWS is already powerful and successful."

Now, vilify the author of the article rather than addressing the silent majority.

Take a look at the links Nathan provided to me.  Warren Buffet must be paying his secretary pretty well.  There are a lot of overall rates less than 20%.  Look at the overall rates, not just the marginal rates.  For us little guys, the bottom portion of our income is taxed at lower rates and is a significant portion of our income.  Us 99% get to "hide" some income too in 401K plans.  That helps lower my overall rate by lowering my AGI by nearly 15%.  There are other breaks too for losses like uninsured damages caused by storms as I remember.  Haven't had to deal with that one, yet.

The one thing it has done, is become everything that the left media said the Tea Party would be.

Can you at least link something?  I've heard a much different story.

And what is that?

The group in Denver has been dispersed.  The police have removed 6 dump trucks of trash so far and continue to remove more.  There is quite a bit of property damage.
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/cvplive/cvpstream1#/video/cvplive/cvpstream1

Your link is a helicopter skid camera with no audio.


My God dude.  You just post crap and then link something that has nothing to do with it?

Videos are blocked here at work.

You want talking trash?

If you can't get an existing group to cooperate, start your own.
 
 ;D

A moment ago it was the live camera following the dump trucks.  You're a big boy.  Find a link.

. . .and stop the trolling.

You have become that guy at the end of the bar that has to chime in to other people's conversations.

LOL.

You challenge others to go find links to match your rambling thoughts?

You crack me up.

Re: OWS in Zuccotti Park... there was never a confrontation and there was never violence.  In fact, the protesters spent the night mopping, scrubbing and cleaning the park from top to bottom.  In the AM, the private ownership of the park decided to ask the NYPD and the city to demur the scheduled cleaning.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/14/us/occupy-wall-street/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Actually I was thinking that was what the right was hoping for.  Weird.

Donny Deutsch is, actually, not a rabid lefty.   

Can you pick some football games so I will know who not to bet on this weekend?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/zuccotti_park_cleanup_postponed_7FyMGft7IABwkMxaEW1sYP

It's called a forum.

I think people who post crap they just make up are closer to troll status.

I don't know who Donny Deutsch is but pardon me if I take your statement about his leftness with a shaker of salt.

Didn't make it up probably.  Just wasn't smart enough to realize that a LIVE stream of CNN didn't play the same thing an hour later.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/14/occupy-wall-street-protesters-vow-to-block-park-cleaning/

Now this is the behind the scenes cyber violence that you do not see.  Unfortunately the people that OWS is aligned with are Hackers that aren't good enough to get a real job, so they have been easy to foil and arrest.


#opLightHouse (FAILED) using NYC Subways to create FlashMobs and havoc through the city on Sept 17, 2011: see http://privatepaste.com/download/267076bdbc/operationLH-updateUno
#RefRef Denial of Service tool release (FAILED) was designed to crash banks and NYSE, but the tool was never released: see http://www.geekosystem.com/anon-to-launch-new-weapon/; http://www.iss.net/threats/434.html
September 20th FAILED attacks against NYSE, NYPD, NYC.GOV, NYPD Retirees, Federal Reserve: see http://www.slideshare.net/robinsage/anonymous-occupy-wall-street-attacks
#DayOfVengence (Sept 27th) (FAILED) because FBI arrested the operation leader CommanderX prior to the attack: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20110912-10391695.html

And. . .if you want some fun, I have a CSV file of all of the emails from the organizers to the members of the various groups.  Every word!

Here you go: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23835520/OWS-Mailing-List.CSV
It's 13mb, but you can do some rally fun searching.

Overall rates - exactly what I have been saying.  The 1%ers average 15%.  The 99%ers average 18 - 20.  Gross inequity.

The big guys bottom portion of income is taxed at lower rates, just like ours.  What is different is the break they get on the top 95% of their income that we don't.


In the deep dark past would occasionally see an article about how some CEO was only getting paid $1.00 per year, the point being to show the huge sacrifice he was making trying to "help" the company.  (I think Lee Iacocca trotted that out once...).  What they did NOT mention was the millions in bonuses and stock options that they got.  For the express purpose of avoiding paying their fair share of tax.  Today's process has been refined to the point of costing the US (us!) hundreds of billions of dollars per year.

Believe it or not, I can still tell my radicals from my centrists, regardless of my politics.  Deutsch is pretty much a centrist.

99%'ers is inaccurate considering close to half of those 99%'ers pay no federal income tax.  And still the net effective federal income tax rate after all the credits and deductions is below 15% for many of those 50% or so who do pay income taxes.

There's a gross distortion of the facts many are overlooking in this quest to make the wealthy the scapegoat for such high deficits and debt.

That pretty much covers everything political.

THe problem is that the 53% of all tax payers not paying tax don't make enough money or have deductions to not pay tax.  So when they do start paying (more than just sales and payroll taxes) it will be very minimal.  Plus any higher taxes on them is most definitely money taken directly out of the economy.

And kind of like when I look in the mirror in the morning and say: "I'm dead sexy!"

If this is the "doing the helicopter" morning ritual...

I don't know how to keep the table formatting but try to align the columns under the headers in your mind.
I deleted the early years to keep this post down to one page and recent history.  Follow the link if you want more info.
Heiron

Please note the Percent of AGI paid in income taxes of the groups between 5% & 10% and lower (getting rid of the effects of upper income tax payers) and the AGI ($159,619.) to be in the top 5%.  I (lower 90%) get screwed because I’m single with no dependents but the groups below the top 5% on average are below the 15% Capital gains rate you so much dislike.


Info from Nathan’s link:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html


Table 8
Average Tax Rate, 1980-2008 (Percent of AGI paid in income taxes)
Year   Total    Top 0.1%   Top 1%   Top 5%    Between 5% & 10%   Top 10%   Between 10% & 25%   Top 25%    Between 25% & 50%   Top 50%    Bottom 50%
2006   12.60%   21.98%   22.79%   20.68%   12.60%   18.86%   9.36%   15.95%   7.01%   13.98%   3.01%
2007   12.68%   21.46%   22.45%   20.53%   12.66%   18.79%   9.43%   15.98%   7.01%   14.03%   2.99%
2008   12.24%   22.70%   23.27%   20.70%   12.44%   18.71%   9.29%   15.68%   6.75%   13.65%   2.59%
Source: IRS                                 



Table 7
Dollar Cut-Off, 1980-2008 (Minimum AGI for tax return to fall into various percentiles; Thresholds not adjusted for inflation)
Year   Total    Top 0.1%   Top 1%    Top 5%    Top 10%    Top 25%    Top 50%
2006   0   $2,044,689   $388,806   $153,542   $108,904   $64,702   $31,987
2007   0   $2,155,365   $410,096   $160,041   $113,018   $66,532   $32,879
2008   0   $1,803,585   $380,354   $159,619   $113,799   $67,280   $33,048
Source: IRS

I'm not making any argument for them to pay taxes if that's what you are implying.  I'm simply piercing the misconception that the wealthy 1% are paying a much lower federal tax rate than us middle class working stiffs with standard deductions, child care credits, tuition credits, IRA contributions, and all the other credits and ways to defer income they threw at us the last few years. 

If the protesters had one lick of sense they would be marching on congress, the White House, and the various regulatory entities that represent the reasons that our economy fails to recover.  Then, perhaps even folks like me could support them.

so simplistic...congress and the White House are not the only reason the economy fails to recover. Have you ever considered other parts of the world and their economies could contribute to the problem?

Easy RM.  If he can't defend himself he'll call you a troll.

Actually you are correct, but what they are protesting is domestic, and they have simply opted to adopt an easy target, because class-war is a simplistic concept for many of these minds to embrace.

Don't you consider arguments to make the lower income brackets pay more in taxes also class warfare?

We just want them to pay their "fair share."   Just kidding!  I'd like to see everyone pay less, but if you pay nothing, then you have no room to complain.

I would almost guarantee you that most of the participants in this movement are among those who pay nothing.  They take to the streets demanding that others pay, yet they have no skin in the game.  Why?  Because they desperately need someone outside of themselves to blame for their misfortune.

I'll say it again, we have done them a disservice as a society by allowing these people, many of which are highly educated, to invest and pursue dreams not based in reality.  Behind each of them is a trail of life decisions, mentors, and advisers that led them to believe that they could make life choices that would make them dependent but happy.  At the heart, you find a socialist rhythm.  

They are demanding gentle masters, not independence.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hI7JjwTSTfs[/youtube]

Its the people making about $125k a year that are paying the most taxes until you hit your income double or quadruples and you have more in the highest bracket.

A college professor that supports socialism, god help us all. ::)

Sounds like a Deutsch-bag to me!
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/n_8669/

This is funny!
http://www.therightsphere.com/2011/10/now-famous-freak-out-video-turns-out-to-be-a-fraud/

Ahhh, now I get it.

LEAVE OWS ALONE!!!

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLl-LJEy-GxjGRAG4bjvVtQgFF26RF3JsBAP9J4PYiZ1Sqs4Zc)

Imagine that.............   ::)

His name is Edward T. Hall III.


http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/an-qa-with-ted-hall-the-jfk-baggage-carousel-jumper (http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/an-qa-with-ted-hall-the-jfk-baggage-carousel-jumper)

NYC
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxZ8_JdKm0Q[/youtube]

http://news.yahoo.com/protesters-rally-worldwide-against-greedy-rich-040550468.html

This seems to be transcending politics.

Don't know if this has been posted before, but a lot of this mess goes back to Clinton repealing the Glass Stegall act of 1933 signed into law by FDR after the depression.


http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/10-years-later-looking-at-repeal-of-glass-steagall/ (http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/10-years-later-looking-at-repeal-of-glass-steagall/)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aQfRyxBZs5uc (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aQfRyxBZs5uc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act)

New Zealand is just a tiny bit west 180 degrees longitude.
Using a string on a globe, I would have chosen to say rippled west rather than east.  It's a shorter path to go northwest if you want to ripple through Japan and eastern parts of western Europe before returning to NYC.
 
 :D

Just awful...The Horror....Dont let women or children watch.....!!!!!!
OWS Protester run down by NYPD Motorcycle....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrzQedHM6SY&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1[/youtube]

The writing on internet news sites is atrocious. Riddled with poor grammar, poor knowledge and misleading headlines. But it costs less to employ these net savvy youngsters and few people ever hold them accountable.

That said, this thread suffers the same criticisms. Hard to reply much when most of the remarks are dogma driven, net driven and based on false assumptions. You just can't communicate with posters whose politics drive them, not history, facts and logic.

Red, do you remember another hotbed period of time when demonstrations, both peaceful and physical were not unusual? When common people with little education but lots of energy and awareness, actually changed the world? And more importantly, do you remember the remarks made about those people? I do. It was the period from 1964 to 1972. Encompassing civil rights, economic riots masquerading as civil rights, sexual revolution, prison riots, Native American rights, musical revolution, religious upheaval, war demonstrations etc. Everything seemed to be on the table.

Why I am shocked by this thread is that the remarks have resurfaced. Same ignorance, same blinders, same dogma. It is just rather depressing to see that our response to change, evidenced in demonstrations, doesn't seem to change much in our country.

Here is an amalgamation of some of these responses to OCW-

"Our Country, Love it or Leave it" (now replaced with Capitalism...love it or leave it... or Wealth Disparity...Get over it...)

"These people are basically unemployed, selfish, lazy, ignorant, sexually promiscuous, dirty, unfocused, racist, anti-semite, socialists who want a welfare society that robs from the rich and gives to them." I cannot tell you how much I heard those kinds of comments related to civil-rights demonstrators and about the DNC protests in the late sixties.

"They totally misunderstand: economics, the failure of all systems but our own, the superiority of job creators vs labor providers, that they too can rise from obscurity and poverty by simply following the rules and conforming, that wealth is to be idolized as the true route to happiness, that this entire fiscal mess should be laid at the feet of Obama, Democrats and Liberals in general, and that they are being led by crazies and extremists whose goals are the destruction of capitalism and the glory of mediocrity. " Cain leads this group doesn't he?

My favorite from the period that I remember was from a CBS man on the street interview, "I've noticed that most of these McGovern supporters seem to be longhairs wearing sandals and riding bikes. That's just not America" ;D Today, different words but same meaning.

So, what I glean from these current demonstrations is this. Yes, they are lead by crazies whether TP'ers or OCW. Yes, they are hazy on details, the product of long fat times, and different than suburban conservative intellectuals in most every way. But, no, they aren't an anomaly or an aberration. There are undercurrents that most of you have missed that seem to correlate with the 64-72 period. It is not a politically driven, well financed and directed movement. It is a movement that is exposing the huge number of people that recognize the system has flaws and know they are powerless to solve them. Like a toddler, they don't know why they are hungry, they simply wail because of the pain.

There is a wide schism between classes of people that have all needs met and those who can't meet basic needs (as provided them in the past few decades). The people at the bottom understand wealth and its lifestyle yet the wealthy and powerful seem unaware of the  plight the former middle class faces and the schism is huge. In this, they are way ahead of this forum's detractors. Curiously, the physical and economic growth of the middle class in 64-72 was concurrent with the highest taxes on the top tier incomes. Now, the middle class is shrinking economically and physically while the top tiers pay less in taxes than ever.

Add it all up and I suspect that, given enough time, there will not only be more three letter movements, but the emotions they exhibit will be reflected in change just as they were following the 64-72 period.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/video-of-protesters-leg-beneath-scooter-spurs-conflicting-accounts/?scp=2&sq=Protestor%20run%20over%20by%20police&st=cse (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/video-of-protesters-leg-beneath-scooter-spurs-conflicting-accounts/?scp=2&sq=Protestor%20run%20over%20by%20police&st=cse)

What?

(http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Screen-shot-2011-10-15-at-2.57.20-PM.png)

Earlier today, I listened to Dan Carlin's "Hard Core History" podcast titled Radical Thoughts. It's an overview of the reaction to radicalism with emphasis on the two Red scares.  The first of these occurred just after WW1 and set the stage for the second Red scare after WW2. The interesting part is to compare the language used then, and think about that language in present day context.  It's perilous to try to develop analogies between those eras and now, but it's always instructive to learn more about history. 

One thread running through Carlin's narrative is that governments have tried and failed to stamp out ideas they found disagreeable.  He began that with a discussion of the French Revolution and the effect it had on the following century.  Our own government passed laws to establish internment camps for known leftists during the height of the post WW2 Red scare, and the order to round up those suspected of harboring leftist sentiments was nearly given during the Cuban missile crisis.  Carlin did not provide attribution for this.  At the time, FBI Director Hoover held the opinion that liberals and trade unions were merely Communists under another banner, and this is no different from the tarring of the Occupy Wall Street protests due to the acts of individuals.

Radical Thoughts is about 2 hours long, but it's worth the time.  Carlin is honest in saying that it's difficult to view recent history through that historian's prism, because not enough time has passed to provide a more objective view.  If you have any interest in history, I recommend his podcasts.  The series on Hannibal and Rome are especially fascinating.

I'll give it a listen. In college, my undergrad minor was history with the focus on the French Revolutionary period and the U.S. Civil War. I like to hear others comment on these periods since they interest me. And yes, trade unions and liberals are Communists. I keed. I keed.

Imagine how hard that pu##y would have cried if he flipped a midget at Belleville ;)

Those of you who aren't racing geeks don't have a chance of getting that one...Breadburner and I have a common history on that one.  BBQ clutch anyone?

Conan, you talking about my hometown?

LOL.  Never thought about that.  Belleclair wouldn't be near as bad as Belleville, Ks. as the reference I was making.  I often forget about the two Bellevilles.

Even on this forum, the spelling is frequently horrible.  As much as Wevsus and I disagree, at least I know what he is saying and he can spell.  There, their, they're and many other seem to be beyond the capabilities of too many.  It reminds me of the joke about spell checker where if the paragraph is read aloud, it makes sense.  If you read the words actually written, oh well.


It would be difficult to not remember, especially since I wasn't (still not) wasted all the time.   I agreed with some, not with others.  MLK made sense to me.  Watts residents burning their homes (rented or not) and then complaining they had no place to live was beyond my sympathy.  There were definitely changes that were needed.  I didn't always agree with the methods.


One of the results of the 60s is the entitlement society:  I exist, therefore I deserve to succeed.  I won't even apologize for saying I don't believe that.  Everyone deserves a chance to succeed but everyone does not deserve guaranteed success regardless of effort.  Yes, luck helps.  Luck can be influenced by attitude and effort.  My grandfather succeeded as a Polish immigrant when being Polish was not a good thing to be.  He saw the value of an education (and learning English) for both himself, my grandmother, and his sons.  True, you couldn't tell he was Polish across the street.  As soon as he spoke, you knew he was not born in Kansas.   I saw the entrance and academic performance standards lowered at the U of Delaware in order to accommodate "minorities".   I saw that as lowering the value of my degree.  Those students needed to go to Junior College and get the credentials to get into a 4 year school.  It only took my brother, who scraped through High School, one summer in the oil patch to realize he needed to become a better student.  He was, and still is, a terrible test taker but he did a few semesters at (then) TJC and eventually got into TU.  He graduated as a Mechanical Engineer.  Why is that path so wrong for minorities that didn't get the proper preparation in High School?  I remember seeing "Colored" signs on water fountains and restrooms on trips from Philadelphia, PA to Florida to visit my grandparents.  My parents said that was wrong and needed to be changed.  I didn't know many black people growing up but the ones I did were fine people.  The local pharmacist, a few kids in high school, some people at dog training school.  I also read weekly about the (usually) black kids in Philly killing someone gang style.  I don't know if it was drugs or turf related.  Where I am going is that there were a lot of confusing signals. I believe in civil rights but some of the solutions were probably not the best that could have been  chosen.  I lost a summer job to affirmative action but I survived.  Another poster on TNF occasionally complains about losing his Pell grants but he survived and got his degree.  Hopefully the kids that got my job and those Pell grants succeeded when they otherwise could not have.


Sounds a bit like you are reciting the self defense liberal dogma now.


I was not a McGovern supporter but not because his supporters were "longhairs".  I just truly disagreed with his politics, even as a 20 something.  My dad was not particularly fond of me growing a beard in the late 60s but he grew to accept it. (My grandmother never did.)  I never had really long hair but for my dad's generation, it was long.


Actually, JFK cut the top marginal rates significantly.  There were loopholes out the wazoo.  I don't know what the effective overall rates were.  Nathan seems to be good at finding that stuff.

Edit: typo fix, missing "were"

Regardless of whether the changes were positive, helpful, destructive or whatever, those demonstrations were authentic, organic and led to changes in law and societal mores. These movements will also, in spite of the efforts to belittle, demonize and ignore them. It just seems funny that the status quo back then was a bunch of old disgruntled wealthy anti-Roosevelt, Goldwater type codgers that were laughing off the demonstrators. Today its the middle age, nouveau riche upper middle class professionals that are using the same techniques.

I am not about to say no changes are needed.  I think it's absurd that top CEOs make the money they do and can leave with a platinum plated gold parachute when they fail.  I don't think taxing the crap out of the rich will change that.  (They will just demand more money to make up for it.)  In that regard, I am like your protesters, unsure of the correct answer.  There are "answers" that I believe are incorrect.  I do not believe that no government regulations are the answer.  I do believe that agencies like OSHA and EPA need to be accountable to someone or something.

Saw a group on the SE corner of 11th and Harvard today holding signs saying things like "How can I get a job when there are none to be had?" That argument is completely invalid in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Get over it and make something of yourself instead of whining on street corners.

Not too shabby for someone your age. I am favorably impressed and I do not intend that to be condescending.

We are hiring, so is the bank in our building, and one of the energy companies. Most retailers are hiring now for Christmas. St. Francis and Hillcrest are both hiring for tons of positions. There are jobs locally if you are willing to work. I would love to see some of the resumes these folks are peddleing.

I'm going to restrain myself, Gastriplebogey.  Suffice it to say, this movement is not only about jobs. It's about how to fix a crooked political system that is ruining our country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-americas-primal-scream.html?_r=3

Because I know some won't read it, here are a few factoids:

¶The 400 wealthiest Americans have a greater combined net worth than the bottom 150 million Americans.

¶The top 1 percent of Americans possess more wealth than the entire bottom 90 percent.

¶In the Bush expansion from 2002 to 2007, 65 percent of economic gains went to the richest 1 percent.

"As my Times colleague Catherine Rampell noted a few days ago, in 1981, the average salary in the securities industry in New York City was twice the average in other private sector jobs. At last count, in 2010, it was 5.5 times as much. (In case you want to gnash your teeth, the average is now $361,330.)"

Jobs, justice, and education...Of course, it is more complicated than that. It's not about jobs in a bible thumping, mediocre quality of life crappy dirty environment city.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUwzXcHClGs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Eric Cantor should go back to his mob in the GOP/Teabagging fringes.... those GOP politicians campaigned on job creation, too. They're liars, one and all. Don't be fooled for a minute that they're becoming sympathetic to the message. It's a Rope-A-Dope ploy. Cantor is after all as pure an anarchist as you can find. You don't hold your country's Treasury hostage and lower its credit rating unless you want it to fail, hoping to benefit from the carnage. Republicans are self-serving and would walk over the corpses of dead american soldiers, our civil rights, the constitution, and even their own GOD to get re-elected.

http://www.fart-sounds.net/fart_sound_board.htm

Wow, how much brain power did that take?

Ah, more from Portland (language warning):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeuGx8PplAo[/youtube]

Here's a bit more about this "freak out" bozo.

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/16/video-ows-meltdown-star-a-columbia-grad-student-with-a-trust-fund/

^^^I posted some things about this guy yesterday.

Yeah, you did. Oopsie.

No prob, he's a real winner.

Marine SGT defends rights of the protesters.

I patiently await the resident AW for his response:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1O2WZXM_Iec[/youtube]

EVERY bit as much as he has!!  Plus the extra effort of a couple of hard, heart felt grunts to aid the process!

They will have to learn to read first.  The classifieds and Craigslist are chock full of jobs.

So, a vet has a greater moral authority on a subject than anyone else. Good to know. Seriously, sometimes I think some in here lob in softballs on purpose.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjm4LxFa1c&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Coming to a protest near you: http://anp14.com/news/archives.php?report_date=2011-10-16

Vet?

I suspect Breadhead is just someone's alter-ego who throws out his little dingleberry balls just to get reaction.  I do similar to that sometimes, too, just not with the sexual perversion side of it that he brings in so often.

I tried that last week.  It didn't gain traction here  ::)

Well, with Lisa Fithan as one of the organizers for the NYC OWS group, you can bet the anti-semitic message is going to get louder.  She likes to regularly call for the destruction of Isreal.

(http://www.waysidecenter.org/images/bringit2011/trainer.png)

Re: anti-semitism, etc:  OWS has some of the same problems that the Tea Party did when it started . . . without a strong (or even a medium-strong) top-down leadership, there's no one to tamp down fringe voices.  The anti-semitism doesn't seem to be a central issue to the protests so far (that video notwithstanding) but it's obviously present here and there.  But Gaspar's putative leader who is calling for the destruction of Israel is definitely different than blaming the Jew Bankers for the crash.  I guarantee you they're two entirely different issues (one geopolitical and one definitely the worse kind of racism).    

And Re: lack of leadership . . . the problem with this type of organic protest is that it just begs to be co-opted.  The Tea Party got snapped up almost immediately and I'm a little surprised that OWS hasn't been bought out yet, either.  I think you can lay that at the doorstep of the Dem establishment, though . . . they've never been a particularly agile bunch, and much more comfortable playing defense.  

And Gassie:  who's compiling your Enemies List?  As is well established, I'm one of the most nefariously liberal posters here and you have a much better grasp of Who's Who In the Loony Left than I do.  Are you one of those guys who's joined the Rainforest Network just to get access to their staff lists? 

Be honest Gassy, which one of these folks is you?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VThQr8fDiLA[/youtube]

You WAY over think things. I was responding to those that try to justify/tout things by throwing a military member that supports that precise thing. Since I am a vet (as is RA? and a few others), everything we support has more significance.  :P

You said "Dingleberry" and "Balls" in the same sentence...You are way more perverted than me.....You're dressing as Buffalo Bill for Halloween aren't you.....

Guido said "military member"...who is he dressing up as for halloween?

We vs us, you are not all that liberal.  When things begin to break down, you typically revert to logic (a very un-liberal characteristic).  That is why I think most of your/our discussions remain civil and productive. If you were a real liberal, you would just start calling people names and revert to childish ridicule.

I don't have "enemies."  I just watch the little bouncing ball.   ;)

Also, it's never a good idea to run a Zentyal Box on the same IP address as your "General Assembly" site with a bunch of open ports.  Anonymous needs to change their name to "unemployed IT guys that live in Mom's basement and play Xbox all day."

 

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3iCvSQAENZY/TeaJaTsijBI/AAAAAAAADNE/jQQB4KOIbKw/s1600/bill_murray-stripes1981-1290.jpg)

Not a big Stern fan, but this is HILARIOUS!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tsJPKMvWDmY#![/youtube]

That would be the goofballs who dreamed up the %53 movement at 3 in the morning on something similar to TNF. Maybe you and Gwe could start a movement...right wing radicals in Tulsa come up with the %9 Deadbeat Movement.

I was a buddy with Howard freshman year in college...we were in a class with L Ron Hubbard jr. and Howard would sit there and whisper, "trust me, he's from crazy..."

She should have just said Zionists....when she added Jew, it became hate speak.

+1

LOL!!!!  Nice try, though!

I'm dressing up as Gene Simmons dressing up as Alice Cooper.

Or maybe just sit on the front porch sharpening a broad axe like I usually do....closest thing to a guillotine I can afford.  And wait for something tasty...  (heh, heh, heh,...he said broad!)

So I was right then....


(http://oscarmovs.com/lambs4.jpg)

No.

That is neither.  Or none of the above.

I'll take that as a compliment, I guess.  Though don't be fooled: I regularly sneak away and cry enraged tears -- in the dark, in a corner -- when I think of all social injustices out there.  And the injustices to trees, as well.

Back on topic:  regarding OWS, the Tea Party, and being co-opted, Matt Taibbi at Rolling Stone makes my point far better than I could....


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/why-occupy-wall-street-is-bigger-than-left-vs-right-20111017

Even the Financial Times is saying the protesters have a point:

October 16, 2011 10:35 pm


America wakes to the din of inequity

A month ago the disparate band of protesters who set up camp in downtown Manhattan’s Zuccotti Park to decry the excesses of capitalism were seen as little more than idealistic youth, doing what youth tend to do. Today only the foolhardy would dismiss a movement reflecting the anger and frustration of ordinary citizens from all walks of life across the world.

So far the protests in the US have been largely peaceful. They may be diffuse and inchoate. But the fundamental call for a fairer distribution of wealth cannot be ignored. What is at stake is the future of the American dream. The bargain has always been that all who work hard should have an opportunity for prosperity. That dream has been shattered by a crisis brought about by financial excess and political cynicism. The consequence has been growing in­equality, rising poverty and sacrifice by those least able to bear it – all of which are failing to deliver economic growth.

The frustration of protesters railing against the global financial system, and of the 54 per cent of Americans who polls suggest support their calls, is legitimate. The wonder is why it has taken so long for citizens to come out in popular protest across political boundaries. For the last three years, the country has been paralysed by a political gridlock that has put its future on the line. Both Republicans and Democrats are to blame – the Grand Old Party for its callous obstruction of all Democratic initiatives and President Barack Obama for his naïve neglect of the need for muscular leadership.

Politicians in both camps have failed to spot and channel the righteous anger of those who have seen government spend billions on bailing out banks, while bickering over how to create jobs or educate children. One opportunity after another has been squandered – most recently in the failure promptly to pass a proper jobs bill.

For a brief period in 2010, when the economy looked set for recovery, there was hope that the American dream would prevail. But the return of gloomy economic prospects has reinforced the impression that the political class is irrelevant or, worse, in hock to vested financial interests to the detriment of its service to the public. Re­forms to election campaign financing could be a first step to repairing this perception.

Whether or not the protests evolve into a more coherent set of demands, or even become a more lasting political force, remains to be seen. But the cry for change is one that must be heeded.


(http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt7qybOHVS1qlear2o1_1280.jpg)

Here is an interesting piece about the Tax Reform Act of 1986 - Reagan's masterpiece.  And how far we have come in polarizing.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/The-Tax-Reform-Act-of-1986-nytimes-1118143285.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=8&asset=&ccode=

The difference between those two pictures, TTC, is this: The people in the photo on the left do not (mostly, there are always a few freaks) want to dismantle all corporations. They want their government to act as an effective balance of their power, so that they cannot continue to co-opt the political system in this country. Many of the people on the right do, however, want to eliminate government entirely, or at least reduce it to contract enforcement and defense (and possibly police and fire departments, depending on the individual). The people on the right seem to be under the impression that there is no need to balance or check the power of corporations.

Interesting commentary from Douglas Schoen of the WSJ

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66228.html (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66228.html)

Here's how the Politico article ends:

"Schoen was a pollster for former President Bill Clinton, as his tagline on the Journal’s op-ed piece notes, and identifies himself as a Democratic campaign consultant. But his clients have also included non-Democrats, such as New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg at a time when he was seeking office as a Republican.

Schoen has previously criticized Obama for dividing the country along partisan lines and said in an op-ed in POLITICO earlier this year that the president’s health care law has been a “disaster” for the Democratic party. The consultant also has said the president should not seek reelection in 2012."

So, no axes to grind there or anything, right?

I'd also point out that both in the Politico article and the actual op-ed they're referring to (here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576637082965745362.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop)) the only support that Schoen makes for his contention that "Occupy Wall Street movement reflects values that are dangerously out of touch with the broad mass of the American people . . ." and "The protesters have a distinct ideology and are bound by a deep commitment to radical left-wing policies," is this:


It's not at all clear that these views are radical or dangerous, or even shared by a scant minority of Americans.  In some polls, raising taxes on millionaires gets a majority positive vote; the bank bailouts were always controversial; and polling during the Obamacare debates and the 2010 midterms showed that both secure retirement and affordable healthcare were top concerns (and priorities!) of a majority of Americans.  The only thing that might be out of the mainstream of opinion is the guarantee to a college education . . . and that might be understandable considering how OWS skews young. 

In other words, Schoen's making smile up. 

This is so freakin hilarious. Who are these people?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MxupmU4cJOE[/youtube]

My point was, this poll (take it for what it's worth) was showing that an increasing number of people that are "OWS" protestors are not part of the original collective, and that alot of them including ones in Portland OR believe that civil disobedience is their "right" (not by the definition of) and that an increasing number claim they will resort to violence to get their message across.

Another point, they claim to have received over $300k in cash donations, as well as clothing and food, in NY, do they have a 501c3? If not are they going to pay the taxes on the donations?

Aside from interpretation, here is the poll data.  Both sides attribute spin to it.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23835520/Occupy%20Wall%20Street%20Poll.docx

You need Word 2007 to open it.

JMO, the 44% that did not vote, quit whining and go home.

Basically, the poll shows a bunch of people who are angry, and too politically disengaged to have a true grasp on why they are angry.

Reading the survey, you realize that these are the answers of a child.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? 

They might as well have put the survey on the side of a barn and shot at it with a 12 gauge from 50 feet. Probably gotten the same results.

Easy.

The majority of the group are very young (18-29) with half of them employed full time.  Close to half did not vote in the last election, those that did, overwhelmingly voted for President Obama.  Though they are angry at the politics of the day, 25% say they still will not vote in 2012.  When asked why, those people said they were "turned off by our political system."  Of the majority that will vote, almost half pledge continuing support to President Obama.

The largest proportion of respondents say they are frustrated with the influence of corporate/moneyed/special interests, yet they are willing to vote for President Obama, and they attribute no blame to Congress (which means they don't understand our form of government, see below).

Question 18 was open ended, meaning that they could say what they want.  When asked "Who would you say is most to blame for our failure to address our problems?" there was no responses for "Congress," and "Special Interests" only got a 8% response even though the exact same question (#16) worded differently resulted in a 30% response for "Corporate/Moneyed/Special interests."  This tells me that they don't have a clear thought process on the who/when/what/why.

Question 20 asks if they would support violence to achieve their goals.  This indicates the willingness of the group to throw a tantrum if they cannot get their way.  Because they are not protesting the government, but rather protesting a segment of the people, this indicates that they are willing to abandon democratic means to achieve their goals and engage in criminal activity.

They see money.  They want that money.  They want the government to loot it for them.  If that will not work, they will threaten violence.

These are child's answers.  

I would have to agree.  Several of the questions were similar and should have been used as filters.  This is a poorly designed poll, but it does give you a glimpse into some of the thought processes swirling around that haze of bong-smoke.  I'm sure there are some thoughtful intelligent arguments out there, but they are overwhelmingly drowned out by the drum-circles.

17 was my favorite.

And this point of indecision:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vQmMK7udEnc/Snho5oL5qVI/AAAAAAAAAfY/U7VL8KLzcUc/s320/Crying+Baby.jpg)

There you go again.  Attributing the worst motives to people you disagree with. 

Why is this surprising?  The whole country feels this way. 

Actually I am attributing a complete lack of motives.  In fact, that is exactly the problem, motives, motivation, and initiative.

Again, you help me to make my own point!

BTW, I'm listening and Biden is completely losing his $hit in Philly right now.  There must be a mini-bar full of Canadian Mist on those buses.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZXAv4O5NC8w[/youtube]

What a dork...Those were some piss poor examples...Unless you are trying to support the right to bear arms.....

Next thing he will do is talk about when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.  ;)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI[/youtube]

Wow... 72 Percent of New York City voters support the continuation of Occupy Wall Street.
" A Quinnipiac University poll released on Monday found broad support for Occupy Wall Street; 72 percent of New York City voters, including 52 percent of Republicans, said the protesters should be able to stay as long as they wanted if they continued to obey the laws. The telephone survey, of 1,068 registered voters, was conducted from Thursday to Sunday. " http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/nyregion/bloomberg-says-tent-city-at-wall-street-protest-exceeds-free-speech.html?_r=2&hp

Looks like that change thing is happenin'.

72% of 1068 is 740 people. Little misleading claiming 72% of NYC voters considering the sample is .00013% of the population of NYC and half of that is .000065% as being Republicans.

Supporting the right of a group to protest is not the same as supporting the protesters positions.

Standard polling technique.

Probably one of those "within +/- 3%" type things.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Tj8UlxhfJLw[/youtube]

The foot soldiers of the elite at some point don't want to impede the movement...would you suggest an iron fist?

Blast away on Chris Hedges....

True, and I'm sure the questioning and the area polled, were picked to generate the results they wanted.

Typical OWS propoganda.

Some criticism and praise of Chris Hedges:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Fascists:_The_Christian_Right_and_the_War_on_America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Fascists:_The_Christian_Right_and_the_War_on_America)

Feet sniffers?

http://mrctv.org/videos/occupy-toronto-man-was-my-tent-sniffing-my-girlfriend%E2%80%99s-feet%E2%80%9D


I guess he was reading Dick Morris.

Great news!!!

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/10/20/2011-10-20_legal_minds_step_up_to_offer_their_support.html

Let's hear it for free speech!!!!


[Emphasis added].

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/angry_manhattan_residents_lambast_RjpTU0jG2z9yrgf5o4bRcO

A lot of people, in fact most people, went to Woodstock and didn't skinny dip in farmers ponds, do drugs, fornicate publicly and generally act foolish. They went for the music and commeraderie. Very little reporting featured them or even made note of them. They didn't make movies about those kids who later went on to become solid middle class parents, entrepreneurs, stock brokers, politicians and TP'ers later in life.

Some people saw that the festival featured the best rock performers and performances of the time as well as shocking the country with the contrast of a new generation. Others chose to focus on the skinny dippers and druggies and totally missed the implications.

A guy in the room next to mine in the dorm (U of D) went to Woodstock.  He was mostly normal and probably fell into your second category with the possible exception of a little weed.

here's a nice little point maker:
http://digg.com/news/politics/this_is_what_the_99_are_talking_about

Add Kivisto to the list

Pretty well covers the biggest part of the topic, doesn't it?

Hey, let's interrupt your dinner!!!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDOEnFb526I&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]

CMIIW, but they are protesting on private property, inside a business, and that's not legal. I realize that it is probably a misdemeanor, but at some point these people are going to push someone to the point of retaliation. I don't believe they have the right to do this kind of protesting, not to mention just some basic common courtesy which some of these people seem to be totally lacking.

This is something that should be a concern.
If the OWS knew this, they would become catatonic and sit down and wet themselves.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2051008/Does-super-corporation-run-global-economy.html

Same only different - has list of companies.  Notice how NONE of them are actually productive - they just make Monopoly money.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html

Cindy Sheehan's back. Media whore extraordinaire.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Xf9jiSsi5Qo#![/youtube]

Her and Sarah Palin are two peas in a pod,  media whores is a great description.

To Democrats, low wages are the problem.

To Republicans, low wages are the answer.

50% of us make less than $26,364 per year.  Kind of makes ya wonder how come the richest just don't get it?  I guess since they already got it, it don't matter...

http://news.yahoo.com/high-income-workers-share-total-wages-grows-231053534.html

What don't "the richest" get? That working hard, sacrificing, and being innovative is a bad thing? That their wealth should be seized by government and given to whiny college kids who majored in areas that interested them but are not in demand by employers?

While I have few illusions about any of this, Paris and Nicole thank you.

Two trust fund babies justifies an attack on all the "rich"? If that's the best you got, wealth envy, to support heiron's "the richest" don't get it, then it's time to move to another issue. Like, guns, knives, and racism in Portland:


http://www.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/27056920-41/protesters-parker-police-camp-displayed.html.csp

Defending those two makes as much sense as your defending every wealthy being on the planet.  

Not sure of the best route to tax but I'm sure they're capable of defending themselves.

Relax.  I'm sure they all appreciate your help.

Bringing a gun to a knife fight is probably smarter than bringing a knife to a gun fight.
 
 ;D

You must not be as rich as you try to let on.  You get it.
 
 ;D

I don't think I am rich at all. I just consider myself successful. Oh, I'm sorry, lucky.  ::)

It's time for the "Flea Party" to go away.....

Not going to happen.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ak70FTn4Br4[/youtube]

We need to run those crazy bald heads in congress out of office a year from now. This thing is bigger than you'll ever realize.

It's true.  The tea baggers have served their intended purpose by electing a Republican majority at the mid term.  Now, the traditional Republican elite is trying to leash them for the presidential election next year, knowing that the tea baggers are far too extreme to be allowed anywhere near the presidency or any serious policy making.  The problem is this dog bites indiscriminately, drawing blood from both Democrats and those Republicans who do not exhibit ideological purity along tea bagger lines. 

Nice.....

Sent from my AT&T Atrix4G using fat fingers

Protests of summer 2012 will shape decade to come


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/14/INVM1LGC6L.DTL#ixzz1bCmEE6Rg

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/maps_and_graphs/2011/10/17/1318873819835/Occupy-George-dollar-bill-001.jpg)

What is the obsession with income disparity? Seriously. I don't think about the millions of people that earn more than me, much less what people earn making less than me. And how does increasing taxes on the 1%ers going to translate into jobs that will increase the low median income. All that will happen is an increase in government revenue, which will be spent how? Paying down the debt most likely. If the revenue were to be used to create more "shovel ready" jobs, then I would simply ask you to look at the wildly successful stimulus plan.

(http://www.grouchyoldcripple.com/archives/owsa.JPG)

That is funny!

Since it's raining and Octoberfest is wiped out, let loose with the jokes.

 I'm up late with adrenalin depression from that horrid OU play tonight wondering what ever happened to Sooner Magic?

So, I run across this article which, after seeing some ridiculous prior posts, I'm thinking " I wonder what these jokers would think of this news? Is it even true? "

You decide. If it is true, it looks like this movement to change our government might be catching fire.

Semper Fi: Occupy Marines Bringing Reinforcements To Occupy The Nation
October 22, 2011
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/22/semper-fi-occupy-marines-bringing-reinforcements-to-occupy-the-nation/

What began as the gathering of just a few US Marines has now become a major organized movement to get Marines and military personnell of all branches to Occupy America nationwide. You can thank Marine Sgt. Shamar Thomas for that. His actions last week have inspired service men and women across the country to take a stand for the American people and join the Occupy protests.

Sgt. Thomas, as you’ll recall, stood up to the NYPD during the protests in Times Square and told the officers that hurting peacefully protesting American citizens is wrong. His message seemed to work on the officers present since they backed down. Now more members of the military are joining the movement in a strong organizing effort to help the protests get through the winter and beyond.

“#OccupyMARINES Are Currently Assessing The Current Situation To Ascertain What Is Currently Needed To Support OWS America. We Are Humbled At The Substantial Support OWS America Has Provided And Ask That Everyone Continue As You All Do While We Implement Organization Nationwide. As We All Know, ‘Occupy’ Groups Are Being Established Even Now And Would Like To See This Trend Continue. “

Their website OccupyMarines.org, is calling for “Non-Active ‘Occupy’ Military Supporters Only” and they are organizing a dress code which will help identify their branch affiliation. So we should be seeing Marines, Army, Navy, and Air Force personnel dressed to impress at Occupy events across the country. Their goal will be to talk sense into police officers and recruit them into supporting the cause.

#OrganizeMarines states, “Security forces/police should be seen as potential recruits to our cause and message, not as adversaries. Ultimately, they are accountable to the people. Defensive strategies never win. Do not respond to verbal attacks or hostile propaganda from Nay-Sayers by using the language of the opponent. Reframe.”

One Veteran, Alex Limkin said:

“There is nothing more central to a free and democratic people than the right to dissent, the right to disagree, the right to stand up in the town square and be heard… I feel quite sure that in standing in solidarity with the peaceful Occupy Wall Street movement, I am doing no less than upholding my oath as an American soldier.”

Marines were already beginning to support the Occupy Wall Street movement. Now they are bring reinforcements from the Marine Corps and other branches of the United States military, to put their organizational skills, patriotism, and resilience to good use in the effort to give more weight to the protests and help them continue the fight to change America indefinitely. For years, they have fought for us in countries far away. Now, they fight beside us in America.


I'm beginning to think the %99 movement will make the GOP look like a tea party by this time next year. Will the big issue finally be over who politicians are really accountable to?

I'm not meaning to be a wet blanket on this, but there are restrictions on military personnel engaging in political speech, which is somewhat ironic since they're largely responsible to see that the rest of us have that freedom.  Don't be surprised with the Corps puts an end to this, probably very quickly.

You cant put the genie back in the bottle, though.
Turning the military against the police has been a significant turning point in other revolts.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys[/youtube]

Yep, just like the tea party:


http://bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2011_1023drug_vandalism_arrests_at_occupy_boston

How many of these incidents must take place before the "fringe" label must be pulled.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mPy67c5noiU#![/youtube]

They are just young white kids trying to escape thousands of years of oppression! ???

L.O.L.
I see your bet and raise you one:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-29-2011/democracy-on-the-lurch---wall-street-pepper-spray-incident

Here is a very picture heavy link that aptly illustrates what Occupy Oakland wants.

http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2011/10/24/is-occupy-oakland-as-bad-as-they-say/?singlepage=true

Synopsis: More capitalism sucks, eat the rich, bring on communism, drug use, intimidation, blah blah blah.

Ahhh, utopian '60's all over again.  These kids will be the next generation of degenerate vulture er venture capitalists, banksters, and corrupt government officials.  I mean look at who is running the country now, the last generation of hippies are ;)

I predict many of these young 'un's wind up like those they despise now.  They will get drunk with friends 30 years from now and riff on how cool it was protesting Wall St. back in the day.

Except back then there was not the permanent record of their conduct the internet creates. These bozos have their images and conduct caught on all sorts of media. Getting a job, and then keeping it, will be hard with the evidence of their conduct. It would suck to be them if they ever tried to get a job requiring a security clearance and their conduct was caught during the check.

Sure am glad this crisis was averted:


http://nplusonemag.com/monday-night-urgent-ows-message

This cannot be real. If it is, what a laughing stock this OWS has become.

Can't quite get their act together....

Really?

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2011/10/25/occupy-norfolk-struggles-to-find-definitive-end-list-for-movement/

My favorite part of this article:
 "We don’t have a definitive end list of things that we’re trying to accomplish, but we definitely have a great head on our shoulders about what we’re doing.”

This has been going on for decades!  I remember back in the 80s we had the same problem with the drum circles at Dead shows in Red Rock and Bonner Springs.  Red Rock was not so bad but at Bonner we all camped at Trucker's, and there were no hills or trees, and the campsites were quite compact. We would camp for 4 days to see two shows, and the drummers would try to play through the night, keeping everyone from sleep.

We found that the problem was typically that the Jerry-head that was going around really crept up on you and most of the drummers didn't peek until after midnight.  At that point there was little reasoning with them.  They never really passed out because most of the crowd only had cheep beer, which was nothing against 7 hits of blotter. 

So I started bringing a couple of bottles of Glenlivet 21year Scotch, and we would join them after dinner and pass the bottle.  This was a treat that most of them had never had. It usually got them to bed by 10.

Yep! That's the mentality of some of these people. Kinda makes you think about those supporting these clowns.

Who's supporting them?