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Talk About Tulsa => Other Tulsa Discussion => Topic started by: ZYX on September 04, 2011, 08:49:06 pm



Title: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: ZYX on September 04, 2011, 08:49:06 pm
Tulsa's metro population is now estimated to be 952,013 as of Sep. 1st, up from 937,476 on April 1st, 2010. That's a growth of 14,537 in one year and five months! This puts us on tract to be 1.15 million or higher by 2020. Hopefully a lot of that growth will be infill for the Tulsa city limits.

What I really want to see though, is the population estimate for the city limits, not just the metro.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: OwenParkPhil on September 05, 2011, 03:18:56 pm
I've learned from past experience they really manipulate the population numbers in the "metro" area.  The "metro" area keeps getting bigger and bigger and further away from Tulsa city limits.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: cynical on September 05, 2011, 08:09:29 pm
I've learned from past experience they really manipulate the population numbers in the "metro" area.  The "metro" area keeps getting bigger and bigger and further away from Tulsa city limits.

If you think about it, when a metro area grows in population, the area gets larger.

I don't think the definition Tulsa MSA has changed in the past ten years. Growth has been modest compared with cities such as Tucson and Albuquerque.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: DTowner on September 06, 2011, 01:42:18 pm
1.5% yearly growth rate should be the bare minimum for our area (and probably does not keep pace with OKC).  I would prefer to see an average of 2 - 2.5% over the next decade to fuel the kind of development and growth most of us want to see for Tulsa.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on September 07, 2011, 01:48:47 pm
I've learned from past experience they really manipulate the population numbers in the "metro" area.  The "metro" area keeps getting bigger and bigger and further away from Tulsa city limits.

I believe the last time the Tulsa metro area got bigger and farther away from the Tulsa city limits was following the 1980 census.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on March 22, 2018, 10:34:28 am
2017 metro population estimates released today.

Tulsa metro population, July 1, 2017:  990,706
2016 population estimate:  987,465

one-year growth:  3,241
one-year growth rate:  0.3%

July 1, 2010:  939,776
7-year growth:  50,930
7-year growth rate:  5.4%

Hopefully, our growth has accelerated a bit, or we won't make the million mark by the 2020 census.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 22, 2018, 12:11:53 pm
Ouch.

.3% has to be well below the net birth-death rate.  Statewide there were 52,607 births and 39,277 deaths.  I can't imagine Tulsa deviates that far from the norm for the State, in either direction.  So factoring in people born here, Tulsa Metro is a net exporter of population?

If that's true, it's very bad news.  4% unemployment and a stagnant population is a weird thing to see.  Makes it very hard to convince companies they should move or expand here because it indicates they may have a hard time finding employees.

Obviously better than losing population, but...


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on March 22, 2018, 03:38:15 pm
Ouch.

.3% has to be well below the net birth-death rate.  Statewide there were 52,607 births and 39,277 deaths.  I can't imagine Tulsa deviates that far from the norm for the State, in either direction.  So factoring in people born here, Tulsa Metro is a net exporter of population?

If that's true, it's very bad news.  4% unemployment and a stagnant population is a weird thing to see.  Makes it very hard to convince companies they should move or expand here because it indicates they may have a hard time finding employees.

Obviously better than losing population, but...

Good point.  Here are the numbers (from the Census Bureau):

2016-2017 population growth:  +3,241
Natural Increase (births over deaths): +3,724
Net migration:  -467
Net domestic migration:  -2,416
Net international migration:  +1,949

For the seven years 2010-2017:
Population growth:  +53,175
Natural Increase:  +30,212
Net migration:  +23,395
Net domestic migration:  +12,344
Net international migration:  +11,051

2016-17 looks like probably (hopefully) a temporary hangover from the oil & gas market.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 22, 2018, 04:40:19 pm
Ouch.

.3% has to be well below the net birth-death rate.  Statewide there were 52,607 births and 39,277 deaths.  I can't imagine Tulsa deviates that far from the norm for the State, in either direction.  So factoring in people born here, Tulsa Metro is a net exporter of population?

If that's true, it's very bad news.  4% unemployment and a stagnant population is a weird thing to see.  Makes it very hard to convince companies they should move or expand here because it indicates they may have a hard time finding employees.

Obviously better than losing population, but...


Or vice versa...I have some family members who would like to move back and have been having trouble finding something here.  In the meantime, they have been to places like Minneapolis, Las Vegas, Sacramento, Eugene, and Portland.  Go figure - why they would want to move back here for the pay cut and less to do?

One St Louis - that makes perfect sense.  Knoxville/Oak Ridge...again, why?


I suspect there is a whole lot of our 'ambience' involved, too - people and companies seeing on the national stage how regularly our Clown Show in OKC passes the ignorant carp they spew and they just don't wanna deal with that.  Especially the way we are destroying education....  And ignoring infrastructure decay.   They are getting a good view of what we are fundamentally all about with Scott Pruitt.   Not a pretty picture.



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: SXSW on March 22, 2018, 05:17:53 pm
Lack of high growth industries is the root cause of low population growth.  Tulsa needs more aerospace (already a strong sector) and technology jobs to offset cyclical losses from oil & gas.  On the other hand with oil & gas doing better that likely means higher growth for this next year.  I think there is somewhat of a positive momentum currently in the city that hopefully carries over to higher job and population growth.  I still think the Tulsa metro easily tops 1 million by 2020 and I hope the city can be in the 420,000 range, which would be a 30k increase from 2010.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Conan71 on March 22, 2018, 06:07:22 pm
2017 metro population estimates released today.

Tulsa metro population, July 1, 2017:  990,706
2016 population estimate:  987,465

one-year growth:  3,241
one-year growth rate:  0.3%

July 1, 2010:  939,776
7-year growth:  50,930
7-year growth rate:  5.4%

Hopefully, our growth has accelerated a bit, or we won't make the million mark by the 2020 census.

And this illustrates why Tulsa's dependence on sales tax for operating funds is bad.  Tulsa's growth has been what would be considered "flat" for at least three decades.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on March 22, 2018, 07:58:56 pm
I was thinking this was the kind of "growth" that we would be having if not a net population loss.  In earlier data the Black population was holding steady, the white population was declining, and the only growth we had was with Hispanics. Then came the current "non welcoming" environment, so figured even the Hispanic growth would decline. 

Meanwhile we have sprawled more and added more infrastructure to pay for. 

I wonder what the average/median incomes have done?  Is the general populace getting wealthier or poorer? Thats a concern for me as a retailer for if population and or incomes are not increasing that means my growth will rely more on "stealing" customers from other businesses.  Though I am focusing a lot now on Tourism dollars.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: SXSW on March 22, 2018, 08:08:35 pm
I was thinking this was the kind of "growth" that we would be having if not a net population loss.  In earlier data the Black population was holding steady, the white population was declining, and the only growth we had was with Hispanics. Then came the current "non welcoming" environment, so figured even the Hispanic growth would decline.  

Meanwhile we have sprawled more and added more infrastructure to pay for.  

I wonder what the average/median incomes have done?  Is the general populace getting wealthier or poorer? Thats a concern for me as a retailer for if population and or incomes are not increasing that means my growth will rely more on "stealing" customers from other businesses.  Though I am focusing a lot now on Tourism dollars.

It would be interesting to see those figures.  I know in cities like Denver and Austin wages have increased but real estate prices have increased even more so people don't feel as wealthy.  

I get the sense that secondary markets will be the growth centers during the next market cycle.  This one has favored the largest cities and it will be the secondary markets with strong tech sectors that benefit from the next boom.  Unfortunately I don't think Tulsa is currently well-positioned to take advantage of that due to the state's lack of education funding and lack of a large public university.  The quality of life and downtown improvements that Tulsa is making, along with the inherent cost of living advantage and skilled workforce in certain industries (O&G, aerospace, manufacturing) could make up for some of that.  Tulsa is also rightfully labeled a creative center and has a vibrant arts scene, especially visual art and live music, which can help draw a younger workforce.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Laramie on July 09, 2018, 08:43:34 am
You will see Tulsa's metro growth rebound as oil prices continue to rise.   Oklahoma's population is tied to the Energy sector; as our two largest metro areas become more diverse with jobs like the Amazon's  announcement of a Fulfillment center in Tulsa;  these 1,500 jobs of which are on the higher wage end does help break away from the oil & energy sector ties.

Amazon Announces Further Expansion in Oklahoma with Tulsa Fulfillment Center:  https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180608005777/en/Amazon-Announces-Expansion-Oklahoma-Tulsa-Fulfillment-Center (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180608005777/en/Amazon-Announces-Expansion-Oklahoma-Tulsa-Fulfillment-Center)


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on April 18, 2019, 09:56:00 am
2018 metro population estimates released today.

Tulsa metro population, July 1, 2018:  993,797
2017:  991,610
2016:  989,256

one-year growth:  2,187
Prior Year growth: 2,354
one-year growth rate:  0.2%

July 1, 2010:  939,822
8-year growth:  53,975
8-year growth rate:  5.7%


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on April 18, 2019, 09:56:48 pm
2018 metro population estimates released today.

Tulsa metro population, July 1, 2018:  993,797
2017:  991,610
2016:  989,256

one-year growth:  2,187
Prior Year growth: 2,354
one-year growth rate:  0.2%

July 1, 2010:  939,822
8-year growth:  53,975
8-year growth rate:  5.7%


Oh goodness.  I knew our city growth rate had been slowing down and even crossed over lately to being in decline.  But surprised to see that now even the metro growth rate has been slowing. 

My thought lately has been that Tulsa should be turning the corner with all the positive things that have been happening with the city.  The Gathering Place, downtown fleshing out and becoming more attractive, continued improvements around downtown including the Route 66 corridor, etc.  I would like to think that we would see some positive growth here soon with all of that.

I am like "What can we do to jumpstart growth in Tulsa again?" I think we really are a great and affordable place to live.  "Do we need to get the word out more?"  What will happen to us and our reputation if the metro and the city slip into stagnation or population decline?  Thats a tough negative publicity hole to dig yourself out of.  Are all our improvements 20 years too late?  Its likely going to be with the upcoming demographic trends that those areas/cities that will be winners will do well, while those that are not on the winning side will be even bigger losers.  Being a small, slow growing city is worrisome in that scenario.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: shavethewhales on April 19, 2019, 08:55:23 am
It does seem odd how slow things are to grow around here, despite the city apparently doing everything pretty much right lately. There are lots of cool things happening, and after my recent travels to other cities I always find myself glad to live in Tulsa where things are calm and easy-going. It seems like we do have some major employers moving in like Milo's and Amazon, but these are mostly low-level jobs and are nullified by other cuts and consolidations elsewhere. It seems like most of the country is at a turning point in industry and retail at the moment, and if you haven't made the mark you aren't going to get there anytime soon. Cities like Austin, New York, Atlanta, etc. will keep attracting more of everything while intermediate cities struggle.

Then again, perhaps we are on the cusp of turning the corner ourselves. Our downtown is truly starting to fill in. Gathering Place has put us on the map. There are a number of other transformative projects on the way like the west Tulsa redevelopment plan.

Things aren't necessarily bleak, but we have to keep our foot on the gas or we're going to slip. Fixing our education issues is the biggest issue right now. That's probably what is holding us back the most.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 19, 2019, 10:34:10 am
Oh goodness.  I knew our city growth rate had been slowing down and even crossed over lately to being in decline.  But surprised to see that now even the metro growth rate has been slowing. 

My thought lately has been that Tulsa should be turning the corner with all the positive things that have been happening with the city.  The Gathering Place, downtown fleshing out and becoming more attractive, continued improvements around downtown including the Route 66 corridor, etc.  I would like to think that we would see some positive growth here soon with all of that.

I am like "What can we do to jumpstart growth in Tulsa again?" I think we really are a great and affordable place to live.  "Do we need to get the word out more?"  What will happen to us and our reputation if the metro and the city slip into stagnation or population decline?  Thats a tough negative publicity hole to dig yourself out of.  Are all our improvements 20 years too late?  Its likely going to be with the upcoming demographic trends that those areas/cities that will be winners will do well, while those that are not on the winning side will be even bigger losers.  Being a small, slow growing city is worrisome in that scenario.

I am truly not attacking or criticizing you at all - your post just had the literal words that I am addressing...."What can we do to jumpstart growth in Tulsa again?"

To everyone - not The Artist (but you can read it too..);

The phrase points directly at what has been mentioned here in the past a few times - growth for growth's sake.   And how just unfocused "growth" really doesn't do us any good.  "Just Another Housing Addition" (JAHA) benefits an extremely limited group of people while creating increased costs to the majority with little to no real benefit for the whole area.  Little towns around us are growing like crazy - and that  has to be taking some level of affluence away from Tulsa proper and re-distributing it around the edges.  All of these towns/small cities are experiencing huge "growth pain" problems and big increases in costs and indebtedness (bonds) - their infrastructure is woefully unprepared.  Underfunded.  Over-utilized.  Under-maintained.  So is Tulsa's.

How about some studies and thought to doing some economic "infill" - don't even know what to call it...  But it isn't the real estate 'infill' of tearing down an existing building just to build a bigger/newer/flashier building.  It's about improving the overall space we already occupy.  Better jobs rather than just "more jobs".   I think Kaiser had a good idea about attracting higher skilled people (remote workers), but pointed it in the wrong direction - outward versus inward.  We lose too many higher skilled people - many more than will ever be attracted by that program.  We need a similar program to develop locals.  And yeah, I know about some of the places we have and they are great!  More would be good.  FabLab, several maker spaces, 36 North, Kitchen 66, etc - all good stuff!  Those are what will develop higher skill levels more than anything else.

Fix infrastructure using more robust methods/materials that will last longer with less ongoing disruption.  If it requires better materials/methods, it will require better trained people, raising the overall skill levels, and raising overall value of those increased skills.

Education - lot's of talk around here about universities...how about making ALL the education system better/stronger/more robust from K thru Graduate school.   Grow value as well as volume.

We have some really great recreational/entertainment opportunities - how about continuing these improvements without worrying about attracting others from outside - do these things for ourselves and then if others take note, see what a great life is available here, then they will come.  We see that phenomenon in all the "popular" cities like Austin, Portland, etc.  They had a propaganda effort, of course, but they really attracted people's attention with doing cool stuff that people related to and enjoy.



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Conan71 on April 19, 2019, 03:13:59 pm
2018 metro population estimates released today.

Tulsa metro population, July 1, 2018:  993,797
2017:  991,610
2016:  989,256

one-year growth:  2,187
Prior Year growth: 2,354
one-year growth rate:  0.2%

July 1, 2010:  939,822
8-year growth:  53,975
8-year growth rate:  5.7%


Growth is still consistently anemic, but hey, keep on building retail in a flat growth environment!


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: patric on April 20, 2019, 02:22:34 pm
Tulsa does have 1 million in population
https://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/letters/letter-to-the-editor-tulsa-does-have-million-in-population/article_1701b1a1-f51f-5238-b814-333772c75123.html


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Hoss on April 20, 2019, 03:24:43 pm
Tulsa does have 1 million in population
https://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/letters/letter-to-the-editor-tulsa-does-have-million-in-population/article_1701b1a1-f51f-5238-b814-333772c75123.html

Well, sure.  Include Washington county which isn't in the MSA.  Either way it's close enough.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: SXSW on April 21, 2019, 02:25:19 pm
Well, sure.  Include Washington county which isn't in the MSA.  Either way it's close enough.

I suspect Washington County will eventually be added to the MSA.  I mean if Pawnee County is part of the MSA so should Washington where there is actually a good amount of commuting between Tulsa and Bartlesville.  It's already part of the Tulsa CSA which also includes Muskogee County with a total population of 1,251,172.

It will be interesting to see if Payne County eventually gets absorbed into the CSA for either Tulsa or Oklahoma City.  It's right on the edge and could make a good case for either.  That would add another ~85k to either.  You could also make a case for Cherokee County to be part of the Tulsa CSA with key ties between Tulsa and Tahlequah.  Add those and you have a CSA of 1.4 million which would put us in between OKC and Memphis as the 46th largest CSA in the country.

Another interesting thing to watch is the Northwest Arkansas MSA which includes the three counties directly over the border in Arkansas.  It has consistently been one of the fastest growing metros in the country.  Will it eventually jump the border and pull in Adair County?  Why are they growing so much and we aren't just under 100 miles to the west?


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on April 22, 2019, 03:44:23 am
I suspect Washington County will eventually be added to the MSA.  I mean if Pawnee County is part of the MSA so should Washington where there is actually a good amount of commuting between Tulsa and Bartlesville.  It's already part of the Tulsa CSA which also includes Muskogee County with a total population of 1,251,172.

It will be interesting to see if Payne County eventually gets absorbed into the CSA for either Tulsa or Oklahoma City.  It's right on the edge and could make a good case for either.  That would add another ~85k to either.  You could also make a case for Cherokee County to be part of the Tulsa CSA with key ties between Tulsa and Tahlequah.  Add those and you have a CSA of 1.4 million which would put us in between OKC and Memphis as the 46th largest CSA in the country.

The Tulsa/Muskogee/Bartlesville CSA already includes Cherokee Country (Tallequah) and its 2018 estimated population is 1,162,677 (48th largest CSA).  https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk

If Payne County's 82,000 were added to the CSA (unlikely), we'd be at 1,245,000,  44th largest CSA (between Harrisburg, PA and Buffalo, NY)

And, by the way, the OKC and Memphis CSAs are currently the 39th and 41st largest CSAs, respectively.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: SXSW on April 22, 2019, 07:46:53 am
Thanks OC, thatís what you get when you trust Wikipedia..

My point still stands on why is the NW Arkansas MSA growing so fast and we arenít?  I know they have Wal-Mart and several other large companies HQís, and the University of Arkansas.  Otherwise we are pretty similar but with a better urban core instead of multiple cities.  Donít get me wrong I like NWA, especially Fayetteville, just trying to fully understand what is driving their high growth so we can replicate that in Tulsa.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on April 22, 2019, 01:18:04 pm
Thanks OC, thatís what you get when you trust Wikipedia..

My point still stands on why is the NW Arkansas MSA growing so fast and we arenít?  I know they have Wal-Mart and several other large companies HQís, and the University of Arkansas.  Otherwise we are pretty similar but with a better urban core instead of multiple cities.  Donít get me wrong I like NWA, especially Fayetteville, just trying to fully understand what is driving their high growth so we can replicate that in Tulsa.

Wal-Mart is of course a big deal for them, plus Tyson and a couple other big companies, and on top of that I can see two other things. 

Sometimes growth can spur more growth.  The growth spurred by Wal-Mart etc. was very visible in that small metro area.  That growth being so visible and apparent gets others to want to be part of the action.  It just rolls forward with a natural momentum, energy and buzz.  Another thing is that it appears so much is new, comfortable, and suburban which is an additional attraction to many people, plus the University area added a bit of "clubby fun" urban element.  Wasn't long ago that Dixon street trumped our downtown for the kind of people we find in our area of the country.

It was like the whole NWA area was a big, cool, suburbia with lots of visibly attractive, economic momentum.  Plus there are a lot of quaint, vacationey, areas around, nestled in wooded hills and valleys.

One other thing I noticed about NWA even from decades and decades ago, there was always a large entrepreneurial spirit.  I lived in Eureka Springs for a time and my parents still live there so visit the NWA area regularly. Every roadside had some little shop, thrift store, antique mall, whatsit doohickey maker, farmers market, roadside attraction, etc.  Much of it seemed hokey or small time, but the attitude permeated the culture up and down the demographics.  Heck its how I got my entrepreneurial spirit.  My parents had a little gift shop in Eureka Springs. We built a small bed and breakfast next to the house, then another, and another.  They started selling their items to other local gift shops, then some Hallmark stores, then other stores around the country, etc.  So many people in those small towns were working an angle to make a buck doing something on their own.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: DTowner on April 22, 2019, 01:24:24 pm
I know they are not comparable to Tulsa, but both Dallas/Fort Worth and Houston metro areas added over 1 million people in the last decade.  That is serious growth.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 22, 2019, 01:30:50 pm
And Paris is only about 2 million people... so why is it much more than "twice the draw" that Tulsa is....?


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 22, 2019, 01:37:39 pm
Wal-Mart is of course a big deal for them, plus Tyson and a couple other big companies, and on top of that I can see two other things. 

Sometimes growth can spur more growth.  The growth spurred by Wal-Mart etc. was very visible in that small metro area.  That growth being so visible and apparent gets others to want to be part of the action.  It just rolls forward with a natural momentum, energy and buzz.  Another thing is that it appears so much is new, comfortable, and suburban which is an additional attraction to many people, plus the University area added a bit of "clubby fun" urban element.  Wasn't long ago that Dixon street trumped our downtown for the kind of people we find in our area of the country.

It was like the whole NWA area was a big, cool, suburbia with lots of visibly attractive, economic momentum.  Plus there are a lot of quaint, vacationey, areas around, nestled in wooded hills and valleys.

One other thing I noticed about NWA even from decades and decades ago, there was always a large entrepreneurial spirit.  I lived in Eureka Springs for a time and my parents still live there so visit the NWA area regularly. Every roadside had some little shop, thrift store, antique mall, whatsit doohickey maker, farmers market, roadside attraction, etc.  Much of it seemed hokey or small time, but the attitude permeated the culture up and down the demographics.  Heck its how I got my entrepreneurial spirit.  My parents had a little gift shop in Eureka Springs. We built a small bed and breakfast next to the house, then another, and another.  They started selling their items to other local gift shops, then some Hallmark stores, then other stores around the country, etc.  So many people in those small towns were working an angle to make a buck doing something on their own.


Here is an interesting take on NWA.  They are doing a lot of stuff over there.  We have been looking at it as a serious place for possible "landing zone" in recent years.

http://www.nwacouncil.org/news/2017/3/23/analysis-nw-arkansas-to-make-top-100-in-2019



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: SXSW on April 22, 2019, 04:17:50 pm
I'm not debating that NWA is a great area just curious how their economic dynamics are so different.  They don't have oil and gas which obviously is still a big part of the Tulsa economy, for better or worse. 


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on April 22, 2019, 07:31:36 pm
I'm not debating that NWA is a great area just curious how their economic dynamics are so different.  They don't have oil and gas which obviously is still a big part of the Tulsa economy, for better or worse. 

I would guess that Oil and gas is at best a stagnant industry in Tulsa, following a period of huge losses in that industry here.  Wal-Mart shouldn't be thought of as just one business, basically if you are a company that wants to do business with Wal-Mart you have to have a presence in NWA.  There are over 1,400 companies, including many Fortune 500 ones, that have offices there just so they can be near Wal-Mart.  As one of the largest companies on earth a lot of wealth and amenities have settled in the area. The Crystal Bridges Museum and its art probably cost more than our Gathering Place. The company led the way in changing zoning laws in the area to get more urban development because they knew their recruits wanted that lifestyle along with the arts and other amenities. Arvest Bank, which is the largest in Arkansas is essentially a Wal-Mart family operation. etc. etc. I am willing to bet Wal-Mart and its vendors in Bentonville employ more people than all the oil and gas related companies in Tulsa.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: D-TownTulsan on April 23, 2019, 07:50:23 am
     As a Razorback Alum, You really started to get a sense of "funky" over there (That REALLY started to kick into high gear just after I graduated in 2015)...

      I think what is making NWA so successful, besides Walmart/Tyson/JB Hunt, is how overall brand-able they've made the region:  Obvious things like The Ozarks definitely help cater to the hipster crowd, as well as provide your backwoods-y fix (Think Fayettchill), The University (Which a lot of out of state-ers decide to stay after graduation), and a wave of cool arts and architecture that scream "Ozark Vernacular". But I also think a major factor is how surprising the area is... That is whenever I have shown friends from out of state, esp. California the area, the common response is something along the lines of "THAT'S in ARKANSAS?". There is definitely an unspoken "cool" factor you get there. It's also unique I think in that instead of one city with suburbs, you get the suburb "sized" cities that work together to support the region as a whole, Rather than throwing tiffs on who gets an outlet mall...

     Tulsa is almost there (I think). Every time I come back home to visit I get a sense that it is on a tipping point of population growth. It just needs some brand-able "cool" factors that it can capitalize on! We have an insane music culture/history, a unique blend of south/southwest/cowboy/old oil time cultures, and art deco like nobody's seen. The list goes on and on, but, the problem I think, is that we only tell ourselves this, and not the rest of the country. Or if we have, we are not doing a good job with it. It's almost like try, then get told to hush, then run away like a dog with it's tail in between it's legs because we can't justify how "cool" the city actually is. I say this because I am a culprit myself down here in Dallas, running around, flailing arms, talking about Tulsa all the time.




Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Rattle Trap on April 23, 2019, 09:20:18 am
   Tulsa is almost there (I think). Every time I come back home to visit I get a sense that it is on a tipping point of population growth. It just needs some brand-able "cool" factors that it can capitalize on! We have an insane music culture/history, a unique blend of south/southwest/cowboy/old oil time cultures, and art deco like nobody's seen. The list goes on and on, but, the problem I think, is that we only tell ourselves this, and not the rest of the country. Or if we have, we are not doing a good job with it. It's almost like try, then get told to hush, then run away like a dog with it's tail in between it's legs because we can't justify how "cool" the city actually is. I say this because I am a culprit myself down here in Dallas, running around, flailing arms, talking about Tulsa all the time.

I agree with this. People outside of the state or region barely remember that Tulsa exists, much less know anything about the city or region. I work with many people from out of state and they can't believe such a "small" city has the music scene, arts, outdoors culture, etc. We have here.

Just the other day I saw Bynum share a post that Tulsa was a finalist for the iron man triathalon and someone literally asked where on earth you could swim around Tulsa, implying there are no bodies of water in this flat prairie, even though NE Oklahoma has some of the best and most concentrated lakes in the country.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: D-TownTulsan on April 23, 2019, 11:27:23 am
I agree with this. People outside of the state or region barely remember that Tulsa exists, much less know anything about the city or region. I work with many people from out of state and they can't believe such a "small" city has the music scene, arts, outdoors culture, etc. We have here.

Just the other day I saw Bynum share a post that Tulsa was a finalist for the iron man triathalon and someone literally asked where on earth you could swim around Tulsa, implying there are no bodies of water in this flat prairie, even though NE Oklahoma has some of the best and most concentrated lakes in the country.

My life down here in a nutshell! I recently had some fellow coworkers return from a business trip to Tulsa and were just blown away. I wanted so badly to do the whole "I told you so" rant but decided that would come off as I'm defending the city, which always feels like that's the case. We'll get there though.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: SXSW on April 23, 2019, 11:44:01 am
     As a Razorback Alum, You really started to get a sense of "funky" over there (That REALLY started to kick into high gear just after I graduated in 2015)...

      I think what is making NWA so successful, besides Walmart/Tyson/JB Hunt, is how overall brand-able they've made the region:  Obvious things like The Ozarks definitely help cater to the hipster crowd, as well as provide your backwoods-y fix (Think Fayettchill), The University (Which a lot of out of state-ers decide to stay after graduation), and a wave of cool arts and architecture that scream "Ozark Vernacular". But I also think a major factor is how surprising the area is... That is whenever I have shown friends from out of state, esp. California the area, the common response is something along the lines of "THAT'S in ARKANSAS?". There is definitely an unspoken "cool" factor you get there. It's also unique I think in that instead of one city with suburbs, you get the suburb "sized" cities that work together to support the region as a whole, Rather than throwing tiffs on who gets an outlet mall...

     Tulsa is almost there (I think). Every time I come back home to visit I get a sense that it is on a tipping point of population growth. It just needs some brand-able "cool" factors that it can capitalize on! We have an insane music culture/history, a unique blend of south/southwest/cowboy/old oil time cultures, and art deco like nobody's seen. The list goes on and on, but, the problem I think, is that we only tell ourselves this, and not the rest of the country. Or if we have, we are not doing a good job with it. It's almost like try, then get told to hush, then run away like a dog with it's tail in between it's legs because we can't justify how "cool" the city actually is. I say this because I am a culprit myself down here in Dallas, running around, flailing arms, talking about Tulsa all the time.

Tying into their branding would be a good start.  Tulsa is definitely more heavily influenced by the Ozark vernacular (forests, hills, rivers, lakes) than to the prairie/ranching vernacular of the central and western portions of Oklahoma.  Those that have been to Tulsa understand this and you often get "oh yeah Tulsa is in the pretty part of Oklahoma".  Those into biking also know Tulsa because of Tulsa Tough and the river trails, and mountain bikers in the region know about Turkey Mountain. 

The arts and music scene and river parks and trails are things to build a brand around but you can only do so much.  A growing city/metro increases momentum and does a better job than any of getting the word out.  That goes back to making the Tulsa economy more resilient and diversified, and increasing the number of knowledge workers to balance out the manufacturing and energy sectors.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 23, 2019, 01:19:24 pm
I agree with this. People outside of the state or region barely remember that Tulsa exists, much less know anything about the city or region. I work with many people from out of state and they can't believe such a "small" city has the music scene, arts, outdoors culture, etc. We have here.

Just the other day I saw Bynum share a post that Tulsa was a finalist for the iron man triathalon and someone literally asked where on earth you could swim around Tulsa, implying there are no bodies of water in this flat prairie, even though NE Oklahoma has some of the best and most concentrated lakes in the country.


We have more shoreline than any other state.  Well, except for Minnesota and Alaska.  (Sorry, Michigan, you aren't even close!)

And great lakes!!

Oklahoma has 11,611 miles of shoreline, more than the combined non-tidal coasts of the Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico.

https://newsok.com/article/3172542/100-amazing-facts-about-oklahoma



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on April 23, 2019, 06:08:16 pm

We have more shoreline than any other state.  Well, except for Minnesota and Alaska.  (Sorry, Michigan, you aren't even close!)

And great lakes!!

Oklahoma has 11,611 miles of shoreline, more than the combined non-tidal coasts of the Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico.

https://newsok.com/article/3172542/100-amazing-facts-about-oklahoma



https://www.405magazine.com/April-2016/Oklahomyths-Shoreline-Sadness/


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: D-TownTulsan on April 24, 2019, 06:22:40 am
Another thing I was thinking about coming into work this morning, is that Tulsa is doing a great job revitalizing it's downtown. Outside of the Gathering Place and some other midtown developments, the rest of the city "feels" sort of stagnant. I know that is painting a broad brush, and I hope that I am wrong, but there seems to be this attitude around town that is, "why should we fix something when it's not going to change anything or show an immediate impact."

Tulsans (including myself) will be quick to point out the strides downtown and around that area that have been made, but I think we need to push the rest of the city to have the same idea. That way there is a more holistic attitude about the city, because, I think that the lagging "appearance" the rest of the city has, is what's perceived by the rest of the country about Tulsa. I think that would attract more people along with those "elusive" non manufacturing-sector jobs. Not every company on the move is looking to be downtown, but why should they be interested in any other part of the city if we aren't ourselves?

Hell, the other day I ran across an Instagram post from the city of Tulsa discussing landscape regulations at intersections, adding more planting/ trees to what would typically be a concrete edge with a giant gas or drive through bank sign. To me that is HUGE! a city-wide beautification would be amazing and be a direct reflection on our people. Steps like that, I believe would create a sense of camaraderie throughout the city, instead of just leaning on downtown to make us look cool.

Goodness by now I feel like I'm just going on a Tulsa rant!


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on April 24, 2019, 10:12:34 am
Love the idea of more citywide beautification along major roadways and intersections.

I think Tulsa is reaching a turning point where it's becoming a more "solid" and interesting city.

1.  Downtown is "decent" now.  A little more infill will go a long way to fleshing out several areas which still can feel small, broken up with empty spots, and isolated.  But we are so close to getting there.  (am interested to see what Kaiser has in store for the new development in the Arts District, could make a big impact there, and would really like to see the Santa Fe Square or PAC property developed)

2.  We have some great museums and am very interested to see what Gilcrease does to upgrade itself.

3.  Tourism.  This one I think has a lot of potential and has been a missing factor that has been sitting right there untapped for a long time.  Glad to see the city, state, and other local groups championing Route 66.  That corridor has some fun potential that can not only make the city more attractive for tourists, but give another bit of pride and enjoyment to those who already live here, and act as another thing to put Tulsa on the radar nationally (which can help draw people and businesses).  The Gathering Place helps with tourism and local "things to do" as well.  It's been a great thing to show people when they visit.  Plus we have our Art Deco and architectural heritage to play off of (multiple tours stop into my shop just about every day or so now), we have some great nearby lakes (would be nice to see some big resorts develop on them), the trail system, downtown and its music/dining/entertainment venues. OK POP will be a nice addition. Hopefully someday I will be able to create my dream DECOPOLIS.  We could rock it with fun Tourism things to do.  Oh, almost forgot the Zoo, Oklahoma Aquarium, Tulsa Air and Space Museum, Botanical Gardens, etc.

4.  The Gathering Place, River Parks, Turkey Mountain, nearby lakes and parks, Botanical Gardens, etc. can really begin to show off our natural beauty, interest and activity potential.

Just move all of that forward a little bit more and wrap it up in a nice promotional package.  We could be looking good!   (and of course continue working on educational and infrastructure improvements, while promoting local unique businesses)


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: DTowner on April 24, 2019, 03:28:32 pm
Another thing I was thinking about coming into work this morning, is that Tulsa is doing a great job revitalizing it's downtown. Outside of the Gathering Place and some other midtown developments, the rest of the city "feels" sort of stagnant. I know that is painting a broad brush, and I hope that I am wrong, but there seems to be this attitude around town that is, "why should we fix something when it's not going to change anything or show an immediate impact."

Tulsans (including myself) will be quick to point out the strides downtown and around that area that have been made, but I think we need to push the rest of the city to have the same idea. That way there is a more holistic attitude about the city, because, I think that the lagging "appearance" the rest of the city has, is what's perceived by the rest of the country about Tulsa. I think that would attract more people along with those "elusive" non manufacturing-sector jobs. Not every company on the move is looking to be downtown, but why should they be interested in any other part of the city if we aren't ourselves?

Hell, the other day I ran across an Instagram post from the city of Tulsa discussing landscape regulations at intersections, adding more planting/ trees to what would typically be a concrete edge with a giant gas or drive through bank sign. To me that is HUGE! a city-wide beautification would be amazing and be a direct reflection on our people. Steps like that, I believe would create a sense of camaraderie throughout the city, instead of just leaning on downtown to make us look cool.

Goodness by now I feel like I'm just going on a Tulsa rant!

I suspect the slow degradation of many parts of Tulsa is closely connected to slow population growth in Tulsa proper over the past 2 decades (along with aging retail infrastructure and growing suburban big box stores).  Those who gentrify declining or stagnant neighborhoods and retail areas are often newcomers to a city.  It is strangely ironic to watch 3rd and 6th Streets between downtown and Lewis rapidly transform themselves while at the same time seeing Harvard between 15th and 31st steadily decline.  It seems we simply arenít growing fast enough to support dynamic revitalization in more than just a few locations at a time.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: DTowner on April 24, 2019, 03:39:10 pm
Love the idea of more citywide beautification along major roadways and intersections.

I think Tulsa is reaching a turning point where it's becoming a more "solid" and interesting city.

1.  Downtown is "decent" now.  A little more infill will go a long way to fleshing out several areas which still can feel small, broken up with empty spots, and isolated.  But we are so close to getting there.  (am interested to see what Kaiser has in store for the new development in the Arts District, could make a big impact there, and would really like to see the Santa Fe Square or PAC property developed)

2.  We have some great museums and am very interested to see what Gilcrease does to upgrade itself.

3.  Tourism.  This one I think has a lot of potential and has been a missing factor that has been sitting right there untapped for a long time.  Glad to see the city, state, and other local groups championing Route 66.  That corridor has some fun potential that can not only make the city more attractive for tourists, but give another bit of pride and enjoyment to those who already live here, and act as another thing to put Tulsa on the radar nationally (which can help draw people and businesses).  The Gathering Place helps with tourism and local "things to do" as well.  It's been a great thing to show people when they visit.  Plus we have our Art Deco and architectural heritage to play off of (multiple tours stop into my shop just about every day or so now), we have some great nearby lakes (would be nice to see some big resorts develop on them), the trail system, downtown and its music/dining/entertainment venues. OK POP will be a nice addition. Hopefully someday I will be able to create my dream DECOPOLIS.  We could rock it with fun Tourism things to do.  Oh, almost forgot the Zoo, Oklahoma Aquarium, Tulsa Air and Space Museum, Botanical Gardens, etc.

4.  The Gathering Place, River Parks, Turkey Mountain, nearby lakes and parks, Botanical Gardens, etc. can really begin to show off our natural beauty, interest and activity potential.

Just move all of that forward a little bit more and wrap it up in a nice promotional package.  We could be looking good!   (and of course continue working on educational and infrastructure improvements, while promoting local unique businesses)

Tourism is a key driver, but what are we doing to actually get the word out about all the cool/fun things there are to do in Tulsa?  I see TV ads all the time imploring me to visit Arkansas, Missouri, Springfield, MO, and Wichita.  When Iím in Missouri visiting family Iíve never seen a tourism ad for Oklahoma or Tulsa. 

It wasnít that long ago that getting transferred to Tulsa was literally the punchline of a joke on ďFriends.Ē  Things have changed a lot in Tulsa since then, but if we donít tell folks how awesome we are now, how are they going to know?



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on April 24, 2019, 07:23:55 pm
Tourism is a key driver, but what are we doing to actually get the word out about all the cool/fun things there are to do in Tulsa?  I see TV ads all the time imploring me to visit Arkansas, Missouri, Springfield, MO, and Wichita.  When Iím in Missouri visiting family Iíve never seen a tourism ad for Oklahoma or Tulsa. 

It wasnít that long ago that getting transferred to Tulsa was literally the punchline of a joke on ďFriends.Ē  Things have changed a lot in Tulsa since then, but if we donít tell folks how awesome we are now, how are they going to know?



Thing is I don't think we are "awesome" just yet. Decent, nice with good potential, yes.  Awesome, we will be able to pull off just a little bit down the road.  2-3 years down the road perhaps which is closer than we have been in my lifetime.  (barring the economy does not nosedive and we continue to lose population)


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: D-TownTulsan on April 25, 2019, 06:40:37 am
Tourism is a key driver, but what are we doing to actually get the word out about all the cool/fun things there are to do in Tulsa?  I see TV ads all the time imploring me to visit Arkansas, Missouri, Springfield, MO, and Wichita.  When Iím in Missouri visiting family Iíve never seen a tourism ad for Oklahoma or Tulsa. 

It wasnít that long ago that getting transferred to Tulsa was literally the punchline of a joke on ďFriends.Ē  Things have changed a lot in Tulsa since then, but if we donít tell folks how awesome we are now, how are they going to know?



Agreed, we tend to get stuck in an echo-chamber of telling ourselves how far we have gotten, but haven't done a good job of getting the word out. Honestly, though not the most modest, I wouldn't mind what Dallas is doing with their "BIG" Billboards they have (had?) around Tulsa and Little Rock. We would have to think of some damn good single worded quotes though, and "BIG" is kinda hard to top. Everyone would hate seeing anything Oklahoma related being advertised down here, besides the casino in Durant, but hey it would get the conversation going!


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Red Arrow on April 26, 2019, 05:09:43 pm
It wasnít that long ago that getting transferred to Tulsa was literally the punchline of a joke on ďFriends.Ē 

Reminds me of another joke (I don't remember the source) where the 1st prize in a contest was a week in Philadelphia (PA).  2nd prize was 2 weeks.

 ;D


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 26, 2019, 07:48:57 pm
https://www.405magazine.com/April-2016/Oklahomyths-Shoreline-Sadness/


So do we believe the Wildlife Dept or the Water Resources Board??    Dilemmas, dilemmas....  55,000 vs 11,000...  (I had not heard that 55k thing before!)

And the non-tidal coasts of the Atlantic qualifier and Gulf takes out a whole lot of bayou in LA.  It's all pickin' and choosin' what conditions one wants to compare to.  (Not to be confused with pickin' and grinnin'...!)  Almost a religious event!

I don't really care about that kinda stuff - we have so much good stuff here, particularly in NE OK, who cares about coast!!  I'm gonna keep going around the state doing stuff, visiting people and places, and try to get out of state business associates to come visit sometime!  Have pretty much given up on getting any family to move back here (there is only 1 "maybe" in the batch), but will consider it a big success if can get one outsider to come visit and decide to stay!



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Conan71 on April 27, 2019, 12:08:20 am
Tying into their branding would be a good start.  Tulsa is definitely more heavily influenced by the Ozark vernacular (forests, hills, rivers, lakes) than to the prairie/ranching vernacular of the central and western portions of Oklahoma.  Those that have been to Tulsa understand this and you often get "oh yeah Tulsa is in the pretty part of Oklahoma".  Those into biking also know Tulsa because of Tulsa Tough and the river trails, and mountain bikers in the region know about Turkey Mountain. 

The arts and music scene and river parks and trails are things to build a brand around but you can only do so much.  A growing city/metro increases momentum and does a better job than any of getting the word out.  That goes back to making the Tulsa economy more resilient and diversified, and increasing the number of knowledge workers to balance out the manufacturing and energy sectors.

I was told that 30 years ago as Wal-Mart was really becoming such a dominant global retailer they began to require their vendors have reps live in the Bentonville area.  There was some reluctance as it was seen as sleepy and backwoods.  Finally, it was asked what would make younger professionals want to live in NWA?  It boiled down to quality of life assets and that is what they have done.

One thing we really miss about living in Tulsa is being only a couple of hours or so from the Bentonville area.  We loved the bike trails in the area- soft and paved and Crystal Bridges Museum is just stunning.  The livability and hip factor have gone up a great deal in 30 years and there are plenty of high paying jobs to make it even more attractive.

It is puzzling the amount of growth in NWA vs. Tulsa as Tulsa has had many of those quality of life assets for decades longer- we started our river trail system in the early 1970's.  We've had great museums for even longer, great area lakes, etc.  What are other reasons a company would pick NWA over Tulsa?  Or is all the growth related to activity with Wal-Mart, Hunt, and Tyson?


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 27, 2019, 08:42:50 am
I was told that 30 years ago as Wal-Mart was really becoming such a dominant global retailer they began to require their vendors have reps live in the Bentonville area.  There was some reluctance as it was seen as sleepy and backwoods.  Finally, it was asked what would make younger professionals want to live in NWA?  It boiled down to quality of life assets and that is what they have done.

One thing we really miss about living in Tulsa is being only a couple of hours or so from the Bentonville area.  We loved the bike trails in the area- soft and paved and Crystal Bridges Museum is just stunning.  The livability and hip factor have gone up a great deal in 30 years and there are plenty of high paying jobs to make it even more attractive.

It is puzzling the amount of growth in NWA vs. Tulsa as Tulsa has had many of those quality of life assets for decades longer- we started our river trail system in the early 1970's.  We've had great museums for even longer, great area lakes, etc.  What are other reasons a company would pick NWA over Tulsa?  Or is all the growth related to activity with Wal-Mart, Hunt, and Tyson?


Couple of things - and I am not pointing these out to start an argument, just to show there is much more than liveability involved.  AR has a past reputation of being backwoods, "hicks from the sticks" kind of place.  Much like OK.  They have a tradition of Mike Huckabee type extremist BS, but they ALSO have the tradition of Bill Clinton.  BUT for decades they have NOT gone out of their way to actively promote and prove how backwards thinking they are (they aren't) like we still do.  Ex; haven't heard of them repeatedly passing known unconstitutional laws...month after month, year after year.

We still get to celebrate "0 days without a national embarrassment" events regularly.

I know and work with quite a few people in Fayetteville/Bentonville area, and while they are somewhat more conservative than I am on many issues - mostly social rather than fiscal (I am nowhere as liberal as some here try to paint me), they are not rabidly nor malignantly ignorant about it.   They are actively progressive about a LOT of quality of life things, because they realize that being progressive means, by definition, one makes progress.

IF we want to project a "quality of life" image, we must stop the continuous approach of getting our 'names' in the national news in a bad light.  It's simple really, but seemingly impossible for us to do.  Just look at what was elected governor last time...and his business dealings record.  It's a Louisiana style approach to presenting an outward face to the world.



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Conan71 on April 27, 2019, 11:24:24 am

Couple of things - and I am not pointing these out to start an argument, just to show there is much more than liveability involved.  AR has a past reputation of being backwoods, "hicks from the sticks" kind of place.  Much like OK.  They have a tradition of Mike Huckabee type extremist BS, but they ALSO have the tradition of Bill Clinton.  BUT for decades they have NOT gone out of their way to actively promote and prove how backwards thinking they are (they aren't) like we still do.  Ex; haven't heard of them repeatedly passing known unconstitutional laws...month after month, year after year.

We still get to celebrate "0 days without a national embarrassment" events regularly.

I know and work with quite a few people in Fayetteville/Bentonville area, and while they are somewhat more conservative than I am on many issues - mostly social rather than fiscal (I am nowhere as liberal as some here try to paint me), they are not rabidly nor malignantly ignorant about it.   They are actively progressive about a LOT of quality of life things, because they realize that being progressive means, by definition, one makes progress.

IF we want to project a "quality of life" image, we must stop the continuous approach of getting our 'names' in the national news in a bad light.  It's simple really, but seemingly impossible for us to do.  Just look at what was elected governor last time...and his business dealings record.  It's a Louisiana style approach to presenting an outward face to the world.



I suspect there is some truth to the Oklahoma Legislature being somewhat of a negative factor when it comes to being able to promote Oklahoma to corporations and individuals who are put off by extreme conservatism nut jobs on the right.  Oklahoma could do a much better job of appearing moderate by electing moderates and avoiding rubber stamping uber-conservative legislation written by outside lobbying groups.

I can think back five years ago telling people it was ridiculous that we were pointing to Arkansas as being "progressive" when it came to being friendly to new breweries opening up and many other issues.  I never thought that day would come.  I'm curious if that progressivism is from younger grads who have settled in the area of NWA.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: patric on April 28, 2019, 12:13:50 am

Couple of things - and I am not pointing these out to start an argument, just to show there is much more than liveability involved.  AR has a past reputation of being backwoods, "hicks from the sticks" kind of place.  Much like OK.  They have a tradition of Mike Huckabee type extremist BS, but they ALSO have the tradition of Bill Clinton.  BUT for decades they have NOT gone out of their way to actively promote and prove how backwards thinking they are (they aren't) like we still do.  Ex; haven't heard of them repeatedly passing known unconstitutional laws...month after month, year after year.

We still get to celebrate "0 days without a national embarrassment" events regularly.


And we sure scare the hell out of people in Japan:
https://japantoday.com/category/world/police-3-children-shot-as-oklahoma-police-fire-at-suspect


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: SXSW on April 28, 2019, 10:44:10 am
It is puzzling the amount of growth in NWA vs. Tulsa as Tulsa has had many of those quality of life assets for decades longer- we started our river trail system in the early 1970's.  We've had great museums for even longer, great area lakes, etc.  What are other reasons a company would pick NWA over Tulsa?  Or is all the growth related to activity with Wal-Mart, Hunt, and Tyson?

Thatís what I have wondered, itís not like these are Google and Amazon but rather a somewhat-antiquated big box retailer (their e-Commerce division is in the Bay Area), a chicken company and a long distance trucking company.  Tulsa has just as many F500 companies but they are all energy-related (Williams, ONEOK, NGL Energy Partners) and several F100 like QuikTrip, H&P, Nordam and BOKF.  Both metros have a higher-than-average amount of philanthropy and great museums though Tulsa has the better overall arts and music scene.  They have the University of Arkansas which is a big jobs engine and more hills than we do maybe that is the difference?  Arkansas is also not as reactionary conservative as Oklahoma but not by much and is not a particularly business friendly or highly educated state.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on April 28, 2019, 04:14:10 pm
Thatís what I have wondered, itís not like these are Google and Amazon but rather a somewhat-antiquated big box retailer (their e-Commerce division is in the Bay Area), a chicken company and a long distance trucking company.  Tulsa has just as many F500 companies but they are all energy-related (Williams, ONEOK, NGL Energy Partners) and several F100 like QuikTrip, H&P, Nordam and BOKF.  Both metros have a higher-than-average amount of philanthropy and great museums though Tulsa has the better overall arts and music scene.  They have the University of Arkansas which is a big jobs engine and more hills than we do maybe that is the difference?  Arkansas is also not as reactionary conservative as Oklahoma but not by much and is not a particularly business friendly or highly educated state.

Tulsa's Fortune 500 companies are at #223, #249 and #353 (total revenue $33 Billion), while NW Arkansas' are at #1, #80, and #395 (total revenue:  $$546 Billion).  WalMart alone has 15 times the revenue of all three of Tulsa's Fortune 500 companies combined.

I presume "F100" is the Forbes 100 list of largest privately-held companies?  H&P, Nordam and BOKF are not on the Forbes 100 list.  Only QuikTrip makes that cut.

It's almost impossible to overstate the scope of Wal Mart.  If you add up the total revenue of all of 5 of Tulsa's Fortune 1000 companies plus our entry on the Forbes 100 list, Wal Mart still has more than 13 times the total revenue of all six of Tulsa's largest companies.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on April 28, 2019, 08:06:12 pm
If I am reading my zeroes correctly.  BOK 2018 Revenue about 419 million.   Walmart 2018 Revenue about 500 Billion.   Having Walmart is like having 10 BOK's.   Plus again, all the companies from all over the US and the world that cater to Wal-Mart, you pretty much have to have a presence there in order to do business with them, and they want that because they know it helps the economy there.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 29, 2019, 08:05:35 am
I suspect there is some truth to the Oklahoma Legislature being somewhat of a negative factor when it comes to being able to promote Oklahoma to corporations and individuals who are put off by extreme conservatism nut jobs on the right.  Oklahoma could do a much better job of appearing moderate by electing moderates and avoiding rubber stamping uber-conservative legislation written by outside lobbying groups.

I can think back five years ago telling people it was ridiculous that we were pointing to Arkansas as being "progressive" when it came to being friendly to new breweries opening up and many other issues.  I never thought that day would come.  I'm curious if that progressivism is from younger grads who have settled in the area of NWA.


Of the dozen+ people I interact with regularly, only 2 are what could be considered youngsters...I am putting that age at about 35 to 40-ish,  or so.  Most are conservative in a very progressive way - they understand what is good for the people is good for the economy and the state overall.  Probably still to the right of me, but not very far.  Many of them understand the vileness that is Trump.  Sad that more don't.

I am almost reminded of Eisenhower philosophically.





Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 29, 2019, 08:09:27 am

And we sure scare the hell out of people in Japan:
https://japantoday.com/category/world/police-3-children-shot-as-oklahoma-police-fire-at-suspect


Isn't that just friggin' wonderful....not only do we come off as "that way" nationally, now we have gone international.!!

Geez...   I'm betting Hitachi won't be building any more plants in this state.  (The one they have in OKC is "de=rated" considerably from what it used to be...)



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Conan71 on April 29, 2019, 02:13:27 pm
I can't find anything delineating the total employment figures at Wax-Mart HQ.  They employ 2.3 million world-wide and I read they laid off about 1000 at HQ in the Bentonville area last year.  Anyone else have any ideas about their corporate HQ footprint?


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: DTowner on April 29, 2019, 03:49:07 pm
According to this article, the population grow has slowed somewhat the past couple of years, although still a solid 2% last year with the total population nearing 550,000.

https://talkbusiness.net/2019/04/northwest-arkansas-population-growth-softens-to-2-in-2018-area-dips-to-27th-fastest-growing-metro/

NW Arkansasís rapid growth is a pretty remarkable story, but I donít see many lessons in it that can help Tulsa.  We canít match the natural beauty or magically create the worldís largest retailer to juice our growth. Plus, so much of what we spend time talking about on here - urban development, higher density, mixed use, walkability, transit, etc. as way of attracting new comers - is pretty much the antithesis of what NW Ark is doing.  Outside of the older parts of Fayetteville, which is a nice college town, the rest of it is pretty much suburban style development scattered along an interstate highway that didnít exist a decade ago.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on April 29, 2019, 03:53:58 pm
I can't find anything delineating the total employment figures at Wax-Mart HQ.  They employ 2.3 million world-wide and I read they laid off about 1000 at HQ in the Bentonville area last year.  Anyone else have any ideas about their corporate HQ footprint?

From 2017:  Walmart will build a new headquarters in Bentonville, CEO Doug McMillon said today. The project is expected to accommodate 14,000-17,000 employees, who are now spread among 20 buildings in Bentonville, Arkansas Business reports.  https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2017/09/15/walmart-plans-to-build-new-hq-in-bentonville


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Conan71 on April 29, 2019, 10:44:42 pm
From 2017:  Walmart will build a new headquarters in Bentonville, CEO Doug McMillon said today. The project is expected to accommodate 14,000-17,000 employees, who are now spread among 20 buildings in Bentonville, Arkansas Business reports.  https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2017/09/15/walmart-plans-to-build-new-hq-in-bentonville


So about double American Airlines' presence in Tulsa at it's peak.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Oil Capital on April 30, 2019, 08:33:58 am
So about double American Airlines' presence in Tulsa at it's peak.

Or about triple American Airlines' current presence in Tulsa.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 30, 2019, 09:30:28 am
So about double American Airlines' presence in Tulsa at it's peak.


Rockwell had about 4,000 through most of the 80's making B-1 bombers.  Down to 2,000 by 1989.  Gone not long after that.  Got to contribute some to that - helped make it look smaller.  Looked like a Cessna 180 coming at you at 2,500 mph!



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: LeGenDz on May 11, 2019, 01:04:12 am
If I am reading my zeroes correctly.  BOK 2018 Revenue about 419 million.   Walmart 2018 Revenue about 500 Billion.   Having Walmart is like having 10 BOK's.   Plus again, all the companies from all over the US and the world that cater to Wal-Mart, you pretty much have to have a presence there in order to do business with them, and they want that because they know it helps the economy there.

419 "Million" vs 500 "Billlion" would be like having almost 1200 BOK's  :o :o :o :o


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: buffalodan on May 17, 2019, 09:20:38 am
https://corporate.walmart.com/newhomeoffice

Speaking of NWA


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on August 19, 2019, 09:32:03 am
Do people think Tulsa Metro will hit the 1 million mark this census? I just moved to Tulsa, so I got us 1 closer to the mark  ;).

Have been reading through this thread, and the future of Tulsa is truly exciting.  Coming from a larger city in the Northeast, Tulsa has so much to offer younger professionals and families. There's is definitely a lack of awareness about Tulsa though, I think my friends in the NE pictured a glorified little house on the prairie situation.  I'm still learning about Tulsa, and I think there's lots of opportunities for improvement (Public Transit, downtown infill, state wide politics, social issues) but I really think the city is developed enough & could benefit from some sort of a national(or regional) marketing campaign. I know a lot of people would be pleasantly surprised by all that Tulsa has to offer. 


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: swake on August 19, 2019, 09:37:34 am
Do people think Tulsa Metro will hit the 1 million mark this census? I just moved to Tulsa, so I got us 1 closer to the mark  ;).

Have been reading through this thread, and the future of Tulsa is truly exciting.  Coming from a larger city in the Northeast, Tulsa has so much to offer younger professionals and families. There's is definitely a lack of awareness about Tulsa though, I think my friends in the NE pictured a glorified little house on the prairie situation.  I'm still learning about Tulsa, and I think there's lots of opportunities for improvement (Public Transit, downtown infill, state wide politics, social issues) but I really think the city is developed enough & could benefit from some sort of a national(or regional) marketing campaign. I know a lot of people would be pleasantly surprised by all that Tulsa has to offer. 

I would certainly hope Tulsa Metro can grow by another 6k people from 2018 (the last estimate) to 2020.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: ComeOnBenjals on August 19, 2019, 09:43:49 am
I would certainly hope Tulsa Metro can grow by another 6k people from 2018 (the last estimate) to 2020.

Didn't realize the last estimate was that close, fantastic!


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: Conan71 on August 19, 2019, 10:45:22 am
I would certainly hope Tulsa Metro can grow by another 6k people from 2018 (the last estimate) to 2020.

Was that the MSA or actual metro?


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: swake on August 19, 2019, 12:45:17 pm
Was that the MSA or actual metro?

I'm not sure what you mean by actual metro, the census estimates MSA, which is the Metropolitan Statistical Area, and Tulsa is at 994k, the other measure is Combined Statistical Area and Tulsa is close to 1.2 million now for the CSA.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 23, 2019, 06:01:29 pm
Do people think Tulsa Metro will hit the 1 million mark this census? I just moved to Tulsa, so I got us 1 closer to the mark  ;).

Have been reading through this thread, and the future of Tulsa is truly exciting.  Coming from a larger city in the Northeast, Tulsa has so much to offer younger professionals and families. There's is definitely a lack of awareness about Tulsa though, I think my friends in the NE pictured a glorified little house on the prairie situation.  I'm still learning about Tulsa, and I think there's lots of opportunities for improvement (Public Transit, downtown infill, state wide politics, social issues) but I really think the city is developed enough & could benefit from some sort of a national(or regional) marketing campaign. I know a lot of people would be pleasantly surprised by all that Tulsa has to offer. 


We have some of that 'sales pitch' in action - there were a couple of videos just a couple of years ago that made the rounds for a while highlighting what the area has to offer.  Can't find them right now, but I know they were linked here.  Anyone know where?

I have been making that pitch to outsiders for decades.  Then those pesky politics and social issues you touched on repeatedly put us in a bad light nationally.  If we could just get people to ignore the BS, we would be in great shape.  Or maybe we could just get rid of the BS so there is nothing to ignore....



Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: SXSW on September 03, 2019, 04:25:45 pm
Between Amazon and AA that's 2,000 jobs that will be created in Tulsa over the next year.  There are obviously many other expanding companies in and around Tulsa as well.  At the same time oil & gas is running pretty stable or in some cases cutting jobs as prices have stagnated. 

As much as Tulsa has diversified its economy a sizable portion of it is still tied to oil & gas, either at the big company HQ's like Williams, ONEOK and H&P to the myriad smaller companies based in Tulsa especially in midstream like Magellan, Explorer Pipeline and SemGroup.  Also the many manufacturing companies tied to the industry that have offices and plants in and around Tulsa.  Notice some of the big signage next time you're at the airport, companies based in Tulsa like UOP Russell and Linde (NA HQ).


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on September 04, 2019, 08:35:23 am
Was interesting to hear that Tulsa Public Schools was going to have to cut 12 mill in their budget due to continued declines in enrollment.  Another symptom of our continued population decline and aging. 

But this may not just be a Tulsa or Oklahoma problem, or even a US problem (as trends show that the US as a whole will see population stagnation and decline).  Saw an article where Elon Musk and Jack Ma were at a conference debating the merits of AI.  Though they disagreed on that subject they both pivoted and said what the real threat was to the global economy and stability was an impending population collapse that could happen fairly soon.


Interesting thoughts though whether we think locally or globally.... 

How will an economy grow or prosper as "customers" become fewer and fewer?  Business competition will definitely be tougher. What will the economic model be? Some cities and areas may grow, but this will only mean a more rapid decline for other cities and areas.  How do those cities and areas adapt? Do you pull things back to the core and densify to increase efficiency and quality of life? Raze outlying neighborhoods and streets and return them to nature in order to not have to have a dwindling population pay for sprawling infrastructure upkeep (roads, policing, schools, etc.)?

Will Tulsa be one of those few population "winners"?

Should the US be anti immigrant at this pivotal nexus?  Or should we stand once again as a welcoming beacon to the world?


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: shavethewhales on September 04, 2019, 09:42:53 am
Between Amazon and AA that's 2,000 jobs that will be created in Tulsa over the next year.  There are obviously many other expanding companies in and around Tulsa as well.  At the same time oil & gas is running pretty stable or in some cases cutting jobs as prices have stagnated. 

As much as Tulsa has diversified its economy a sizable portion of it is still tied to oil & gas, either at the big company HQ's like Williams, ONEOK and H&P to the myriad smaller companies based in Tulsa especially in midstream like Magellan, Explorer Pipeline and SemGroup.  Also the many manufacturing companies tied to the industry that have offices and plants in and around Tulsa.  Notice some of the big signage next time you're at the airport, companies based in Tulsa like UOP Russell and Linde (NA HQ).

Yes, lots of job growth in various blue collar industries around Tulsa, but O&G is definitely at the start of a major contraction. As these companies go out of business or are acquired, their remaining operations will be moved out of Tulsa. Thank goodness for WPX building a new HQ here that I assume is already bought and paid for.

Of course our economy is still based around O&G. All the blue collar jobs from out-of-state companies might keep people around, but they aren't the ones making huge contributions to things like the Zoo, Gathering Place, etc. Corporate jobs actually give people enough money to do things like invest, retire, and give back to the community and local economy. Our corporate HQ's are what keeps Tulsa relevant on the national stage. If we lose 1 major oil company HQ but gain 10,000 new warehouse jobs, it's still a net loss in my book. The jobs that are being created these days just don't support people the way they used to. They barely pay you, break you down over time, and leave you with very little to live on when you are old and used up. But I digress...

I don't think we'll have to worry about those supposed problems in our lifetime Artist. At this point, simply reverting a few immigration policies will be enough to keep US population growing indefinitely. We aren't really slowing down much anyway.

Tulsa doesn't look like it is "winning" in population growth at the moment, but it isn't really losing either. I'm just worried that we are set up for a major quality of life decline for future generations...


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: D-TownTulsan on September 04, 2019, 10:44:46 am
I may be completely missing something here, but where is the data saying Tulsa is losing population? I understand the slower growth, however, I don't see folks high tailing it out, unless I'm completely missing something, this forum makes it seem like the city is getting the "St. Louis jump ship" treatment. I think I have lived away from the city to sort of gain an "out-of-towner's" perspective, and if anything, there seems to be the opposite happening. I understand population isn't exploding, but to me, I just don't see a population decline. But then again I am an optimist!


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: swake on September 04, 2019, 10:49:15 am
I may be completely missing something here, but where is the data saying Tulsa is losing population? I understand the slower growth, however, I don't see folks high tailing it out, unless I'm completely missing something, this forum makes it seem like the city is getting the "St. Louis jump ship" treatment. I think I have lived away from the city to sort of gain an "out-of-towner's" perspective, and if anything, there seems to be the opposite happening. I understand population isn't exploding, but to me, I just don't see a population decline. But then again I am an optimist!

It's not declining, but with the downturn in energy prices and declining immigration numbers nationally our growth has slowed.


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: TheArtist on September 04, 2019, 04:34:17 pm
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/census-tulsa-loses-population-as-area-suburbs-see-growth/article_2397d507-7387-5c1a-92e7-286b73b18385.html

"Tulsa has now lost 3,513 residents since its population peaked in July 2016 at 404,182, according to the Census Bureau population estimates."

I have been watching the Census stats for ages and you could see even before the over all decline happened that the white population had been declining, the black population was steady, and the only growth was with the hispanic population.  Wouldn't take a rocket scientist to guess there just might be a decline once all the hispanic scaremongering went into full swing with this administration, and on top of that we didn't catch the urban growth wave while that was happening in other cities.

But what is troubling is that as the decade or so saw slower and slower growth in Tulsa, until we have reached this point.  The suburbs have now seen slower and slower "rates of growth".   Following those trends..... I know you all are smart enough to figure it out.  Unless something changes even the suburbs will begin seeing decline.  Looking statewide the rural areas have already been showing population declines as well.

My point isn't to say all is doom and gloom but to put a fire under people to make the changes that 20 + years ago.  We had so much opportunity to make the changes that would have made our city really catch the "People wanting to move to lively pedestrian friendly places" growth.  But we did not want to make the changes that would have had us at a good point now.  

I still get people just about every other day that I am downtown here at the store going... "Where is everyone?"  "What is wrong with your downtown?" I wish you could feel how my gut feels every time I hear that from people.  It makes me sick.  I do my best to put a good face on things, smile and give a little explanation.  (Don't dare say things are a lot better, because then they exclaim "How on gods earth could it be worse!" heard that a couple times then avoid saying that now lol).

But anywhoo.  I think we need need to pull our heads out of the sand and face reality.  For it seems we only have the gumption to make the changes needed when we are pressed to do so, when its an emergency.  On the surface and to others we should indeed paint a good picture of all the positive things that are happening.  But, for gosh sakes don't think everything is hunky dory, no need to put in any extra effort to change,  until it's too late.    


Title: Re: Tulsa metro population growth.
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on September 05, 2019, 08:53:22 am
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/census-tulsa-loses-population-as-area-suburbs-see-growth/article_2397d507-7387-5c1a-92e7-286b73b18385.html

"Tulsa has now lost 3,513 residents since its population peaked in July 2016 at 404,182, according to the Census Bureau population estimates."

I have been watching the Census stats for ages and you could see even before the over all decline happened that the white population had been declining, the black population was steady, and the only growth was with the hispanic population.  Wouldn't take a rocket scientist to guess there just might be a decline once all the hispanic scaremongering went into full swing with this administration, and on top of that we didn't catch the urban growth wave while that was happening in other cities.

But what is troubling is that as the decade or so saw slower and slower growth in Tulsa, until we have reached this point.  The suburbs have now seen slower and slower "rates of growth".   Following those trends..... I know you all are smart enough to figure it out.  Unless something changes even the suburbs will begin seeing decline.  Looking statewide the rural areas have already been showing population declines as well.

My point isn't to say all is doom and gloom but to put a fire under people to make the changes that 20 + years ago.  We had so much opportunity to make the changes that would have made our city really catch the "People wanting to move to lively pedestrian friendly places" growth.  But we did not want to make the changes that would have had us at a good point now.  

I still get people just about every other day that I am downtown here at the store going... "Where is everyone?"  "What is wrong with your downtown?" I wish you could feel how my gut feels every time I hear that from people.  It makes me sick.  I do my best to put a good face on things, smile and give a little explanation.  (Don't dare say things are a lot better, because then they exclaim "How on gods earth could it be worse!" heard that a couple times then avoid saying that now lol).

But anywhoo.  I think we need need to pull our heads out of the sand and face reality.  For it seems we only have the gumption to make the changes needed when we are pressed to do so, when its an emergency.  On the surface and to others we should indeed paint a good picture of all the positive things that are happening.  But, for gosh sakes don't think everything is hunky dory, no need to put in any extra effort to change,  until it's too late.    


There is a cycle to the growth phases...an ebb and flow.  Sadly, Tulsa doesn't always get the flow but always gets the ebb.