The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Driving around this week, something dawned on me.  The only interstate passing through our city completely bypasses our downtown area.  I'm not sure I can think of another Top 50 city where this is the case.  The decision to move I-44 down south 50+ YEARS ago I think inadvertently pulled more focus and people away from our actual "city center".  Think about how many millions of cars pass "through Tulsa" every year and never even get more than an awkward glimpse at our real crown jewel, downtown.  Whoever decided that Tulsa was just another dusty town along a highway that needed to be bypassed instead of moving people right through the heart of our downtown which was even then the center for commerce, entertainment and shopping should be ashamed.  They basically cut off the best part of Tulsa from some of our easiest would be residents, passing automobile passengers.  Oh...and in the process they pretty much demoted downtown to an after thought for its own citizens.

Shame on whoever let this happen.

Not sure the point you are making, for those who want to go downtown or stop off there, we've got I-244 or the BA for access to it from I-44.  Typically, the interstates "by-pass" major cities by elevating the road over them or moving it around them.  The whole point of the interstate system was to by-pass a ton of commerce and congestion so we could move people through an area a whole lot quicker.

uhhhhhhh what...... ??? ??? ???

Where would they have run I-44 near downtown? Probably through the neighborhood I live in now. It wasn't well regarded at that time. The land and construction costs would have been higher as well.

I remember passing through OKC, KC, and Minnie far enough away that I just saw the skyline. But Denver, St.Louis, St.Paul, Dallas and Houston were very close though I didn't feel obliged to live in any of them. :)

I don't fault their reasoning back when cities were expanding outwards not inwards.

Is 75 considered an interstate?

No
Interstates do not have stop-lights, crossroads, etc
plus it's US-75, not I-75

I-75 runs from the great lakes to Florida
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_75

Oh I know I sound like I'm making something out of nothing, probably am.  As a kid, I spent many hours in the back seat of a caprice wagon on long road trips.  My best friend was a road atlas.  It was like looking at blueprints after awhile.  When I got my license at 16, I spent most of my summers and school breaks driving around the 5-state area with friends.   My parents weren't the "hands-on" type.  I never really needed a map to get from city to city, most of those "blueprints" were still in my head and road signs and highway markers always reinforced my decisions.  

Tulsa has always been different...a little behind...a little less like other cities that are known to all who pass through them as CITIES not towns.  Little things like seeing Tulsa printed as "Tulsa, Okla." in any magazine list it might make, while towns like Little Rock and Albuquerque stand alone.  It's amazing how many people still don't even know what state Tulsa is in.

I know the interstate thing is probably a stretch, but looking at a map Tulsa is just strange.  The city grew so lopsided away from it's real "city center" that many forget about it altogether.  Cities that grow out FROM their de facto center never fall to far off anyone's radar, whether they be passing through or actually live in surrounding areas.  Point is, there's nothing natural about where our downtown ended up.   It's almost an outpost in this city to most people, not a funneling point.  People here just don't gravitate towards it.  I guess I was looking for some key moment when the big awkward tumor called southeast Tulsa "happened" and downtown got forgotten.   For me, it seems like I-44 set it in concrete even if it was already happening.

I get that it was easier to locate it south, I guess the reality is that Tulsa was probably one of the very last large cities to actually get an interstate at all.  Always behind, always forgotten.  By the time it made it here, trying to build the highway through downtown probably seemed ludicrous.  Forgive my rambling, I have a weird relationship with Tulsa.  It's been like an underachieving kid to me for most of my life.

Can someone pass me a beer? Lol

My memory of the Interstates is that the by-passes around the larger cities were built before the main route through the city. 

St Louis was certainly that way.  When we moved here from Philadelphia area (No one around here probably knows where Springfield, Delaware County, PA is.), we were following I-70 to pick up I-44 in St Louis.  We followed the "TO I-44" signs with a caravan of three cars, two towing trailers, through somewhere in St Louis.  When I went back to school (Univ of Delaware) a few weeks later, I made sure to take the bypass routes.

Memphis, TN never did and never will complete the main route through center city.

I am sure there are more examples.

I am always surprised at the number of people around here that either don't know or choose to ignore that route 75 in Oklahoma is not I-75.

Sheesh Red, I know where I-75 is. I just asked whether 75 could be "considered an interstate". My point was that there is a highway that crosses numerous states, U.S. 75, that can get people traveling that route near downtown Tulsa. Here's a map.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/US_75_map.png/285px-US_75_map.png)

Don't feel like I singled you out, because I didn't.

I have no idea what any other city's growth pattern is.   It certainly doesn't affect my perception..  Can we do a survey.   Are cities where the "downtown" is in the geographical center cooler/hipper/more-pedestrian-friendly than cities where it's not?

Most any coastal/water city is going to grow away from the water.
Maybe that's why I've never had much interest in visiting Chicago.   The whole city is west of it's downtown.
However, it's the same thing in Boston, which is probably my fav US city
Seattle was also very cool...

Sprawl is sprawl, whether it's in all directions or not.

I'm off my meds today. Sorry.

You actually make a good point, and there has been talk recently of another major north/south corridor being given an interstate rating at some time.

This is a good starting point.  Yes, I'm a road geek.  Have been since I was young and would go on trips with the grandparents to not far off places (Dogpatch AR, Silver Dollar City before it turned into a huge tourist hole, many other places).

http://www.interstate-guide.com/future.html

If that alignment you show were to happen, it would likely be given the designate of Interstate 41.

Or maybe I-37 since there is already a I-39 going from Peoria IL to somewhere in Wisconsin.

Or since I-45 spurs from Dallas to Houston, maybe I-47, since I-49 exists between SW and NW Louisiana?  I know the Interstate system only designates majors on the ordinals of 5 and 10 (i.e, I-5, I-15, I-25, I-35, etc etc are considered full-length major interstates n/s, I-10, I-20 etc etc the same way E/W) which by definition are those that carry a high volume of traffic long distances.

Heck, maybe they could just designate it I-45 if they're making it that far.  Change the North Central Expy in Dallas to that, and really on US75 they would not have to do much until they got to Atoka.

If "we" can't get high speed rail between Tulsa and Dallas, maybe we could at least get an Interstate caliber highway.  I really don't care so much what they call it.

The little towns along the way wouldn't lose anything from me.  I go to the state line for a rest stop and don't need fuel or food until Waco on my way to Uvalde, about 90 mi west of San Antonio.

Edit: spelling correction

Tulsa didn't grow away from downtown because of I-44.  Downtown Tulsa is not the center of the city of Tulsa because Dr Kennedy got pissed the city wouldn't run water to his land for a housing development he was doing and said no one could build on his land for many years after he died.  It is also hampered by the topography and the fact it's Osage County and at the time the Osage Reservation.  The developers if Maple Ridge basically paid influential people to live in those homes.  It was flat, tree-less land that stunk because of the refineries.  When the Lorton's developed Reservoir Hill they billed it as a place to enjoy the breeze without the "stench of the river."  I-44 was an outer loop when it was built akin to the Creek Turnpike when it was built.  Land south and east of downtown has been easier & cheaper to develop since Tulsa was founded.  Combined with the fact that the roughnecks and workers were trapped on the west side (because of a toll bridge) no one for 90 years has wanted to develop north and west of downtown.  Politics and the class system made it this way and they continue that problem.

Those are interesting observations.

I would take issue with some of the remarks having done some research into Maple Ridge in the late 70's when I was a realtor and about the time I bought a home there. What we call MR today, was hardly flat and treeless though all of Tulsa was sparsely treed until the oil execs from the east came and developed in a manner they were comfortable with. Early pictures and descriptions show that much of the land had been stripped of trees for heating and construction. Newly arriving oil people planted the trees and fostered the parks all over the city.

Travel up 15th from Boston on a snow packed street and tell me its flat. Observe Cherry street from 13th and Boston on a wintry day and notice how it sits high above the downtown. Or travel along Madison south of 21st during a spring rain and notice how the water pools up because of the hilly terrain. No, the only part of MR that is flat is the original plat that runs from 18th to 21st, Detroit to Peoria and its likely that it was graded for development.

Early on there was bifurcated development of Tulsa with some execs moving to the North and some to the near South. Cosden built on Denver to be able to see his refinery as did many other execs. Riverview was an executive residential area because they wanted to live nearby. Many of the residents of near South Tulsa owned businesses that the oil wealth desired. My home was built by the president of the Ice Plant. I'm not surprised that incentives would be offered to build in MR, they were likely very competitive in trying to draw new money away from the North and existing concentrations of wealth.

Note the lovely mansions just north of downtown around the Kennedy mansion and along north Denver. You can see that lots of homes similar in design to Morningside, Tracy and Maple Ridge exist in that area as well as Owen park. The city was expanding in two directions up to the time that Skelly located at 21st. Then the tide turned. Skelly was someone the execs wanted to live near. The growth of Greenwood and its black population combined with the race riots, spelled the end of northern executive expansion.

West Tulsa was always working class. The toll bridge didn't last long and was replaced before the major growth described above. The prevailing winds have always blown the majority of smell northwest and South. We get some smell intermittently when the wind comes out of the west, or when a storm blows in, but then so does the whole city. That had little to do with development. Its true that Osage county is more difficult to develop due to its hilly and rocky topography. They also had to deal with less infrastructure support. Osage is huge, was hindered in growth by Osage Indian ownership (though that didn't stop folks, just slowed them down a bit) and Tulsa sits at its periphery. Development followed least resistance imo.

We have posters who live in Reservoir Hill and can better relay its history, but my understanding is that the Mayo family was its driving force, not the Lorton's. I just don't remember. I do know the more sophisticated mercantile population resided there and the views are gorgeous and it was near a new water source and a new airport. But not good access to the refineries, especially in winter.

There was lots of stuff happening in a very short time period between 1915 to 1929 in Tulsa. Its population exploded and the variety of its class and race made development very interesting. Without the direction and leadership of educated, experienced entrepreneurs from back East, we'd still be....Podunk, OK. with a statue of Lee on a horse in Woodward Park instead of a Native American ;) They made mistakes but were pretty much a microcosm of the country at the time. All of this is pretty well documented in books and pics from the period though details are often polished up a bit.

I posted from my iPhone.  Hard to proofread.  Yes, the Mayo's developed Reservoir Hill.  Just a brain fart because I was mad at the Lorton's because their workers can't seem to deliver a newspaper on Sunday morning.  Eugene Lorton's mansion was actually in Owen Park, just down from the Irving statue.

I actually live at Reservoir Hill in a home built by Cass Mayo.  Prior to moving here 18 months ago I did quite a bit of research on the history of the area and why it was a forgotten development, unlike Maple Ridge.  I spent a lot of time at the library as well as meeting with the preservation commission, Tulsa Foundation for Architecture, a TU professor and other local "historians" & developers.  My hope was to discover any nuggets I could about my home.  Unfortunately, other than a brief pamphlet done in the 90's, very little research has been completed on Reservoir Hill.  The Mayo's receive the credit for developing the neighborhood, but they were actually the second developer and only built homes, they didn't plat the neighborhood.

When I said Maple Ridge was flat I was referring to the original Maple Ridge, 15th to 21st.  The land east of the river and south of the Osage Hills was prairie land and historical writings state it was treeless.

If you read John Brooks Walton's writings and a few other writings on the history of Tulsa between 1915-1930 you'll discover the developer had to give away the first lots to encourage development.  One of the first lots the developer donated was to a Tulsa Congressman.  He thought people would want to live near a Congressman, and he was right.  The originally developer and family were involved in the founding of First National Bank, which is now JP Morgan Chase Bank.

Maple Ridge's North boundary is actually 18th street. The area from 15th to 18th is Morningside. Note how the land drains away from the the original MR plat on all sides. Its like they shaved the top off a small hill. Morningside was developed on land owned by a woman of Cherokee or Creek heritage who married a real estate developer. She subsequently disappeared. Not uncommon I'm told.

Anyway, its also not uncommon for movers and shakers to get more freebies than common folk. No doubt the competition to get new wealth into the MR area included great incentives to bankers and other key people since North of downtown was still a viable choice for them.

I believe a lot of historical stuff has been purposely destroyed, hidden or changed over the years to protect reputations. I wish you luck with the Hill research. Some stuff I got was from the phone directories from that time period. They often listed names, occupations and marital status. You can piece stuff together, tedious but fun.

As an aside, my street in MR was originally called Tookah street. No one knows why. When I was selling real estate a haughty young couple spoke of disdain about the houses in my edition just west of MR which is called Southside (note how they marketed it vs North?). They said it was populated with "hangers on". I patiently responded that in fact, MR was developed several years after Southside which made them the hangers on.

Lost that couple.

What we call Maple Ridge is actually what 30-40 "neighborhoods" from a platting standpoint?  I believe the first was Southside followed by Morningside, Maple Park, Maple Ridge, Sunset Park & Maple Heights.  I don't think that is correct order but I think those were all done in the teens.  The Skelly Mansion wasn't built until 1923, so the Maple Ridge area was on its way before he built his monument to himself.

On the subject of Kennedy, it is very interesting how his refusal to do anything with his land changed that side of Tulsa.  One man changing the direction of a city out of spite.

The amount of information about the hill is shockingly low.  I've made attempts over the last year or so to speak with the Mayo/Oliphant family about what family documents they may have about the hill.  Everyone I know that knows them says they are very private and have been leery to discuss with them.

When Wiggins converted the Mayo Building I understand he found plans for several of the Spanish Colonial homes that are on the hill that Cass Mayo is believed to have designed himself.  Preservation Commission staff told me they are sitting in their office but they haven't had time to review them.  Frankly, its sad that the city hasn't taken more of an interest in the hill.  The architectural diversity of the homes on the hill and the stock of Gothic Revival at its north base is quite amazing.  One can find nearly every style of architecture from around Tulsa (Spanish Colonial, Modern, California Modern, Mid Century Modern, Federalist, Colonial, Traditional, Spanish, Ranch and Tuscan) within the 40-50 homes on the hill.

Back to original topic, I-44 didn't cause the growth away from downtown, but it certainly didn't help the sprawl.  A completed Gilcrease Expressway connecting with the Tisdale would hopefully spur development along the westside and north of downtown.  However, I hope the Osage Hills are left as in tact as possible.  They are a beautiful asset that is certainly under appreciated.

I love the Hill. I always get lost over there though. Google doesn't help me, I just can't figure out the logic of it all. Wish I could convince my wife to pick up a bargain over there, but we're getting a bit old to attack another project of that scope. I'm sure you've visited the county courthouse to look at the records. That can put you on to some different paths.   

You know even into the 70's and 80's there were still empty lots in the original MR. You can also see where savvy builders did some infill on low demand vacant lots in the 60's. Duplexes, contemporaries, moderns scattered around the area. I like that actually.

I just wish they had routed I-44 away from the industrial, auto salvage and sewage treatment areas.

I-44 was the interstate replacement for Rte 66 and was built as a bypass around Tulsa for interstate commerce and travel from St. Louis to OKC where it transistion to the I-40 corridor from OKC to LA. That is why there is so much industrial development along that path including salvage yards. I'm not sure when the sewage plant n ext to the Pepsi plant was built, but I do remember it being there in the mid to late 60's. I have said it before and I will say it again, the growth to the south was well on its way in the early 70's and once Ford announced plans and built the glass plant everything really shifted that way in 74 or 75.

Someone else made reference to and included a map of US 75 as it runs north and south through the central part of the US, here is a map of US 60 that runs from Virgina Beach to LA and it's family of highways. It was the predescesor to I-40.

http://www.usends.com/mapguy/MapPgs/mapx60.htm (http://www.usends.com/mapguy/MapPgs/mapx60.htm)

Speaking of highways, I have driven what was once called US 666 from Gallup NM to Cortez CO.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/us666.cfm (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/us666.cfm)

By the early to mid 70s, US 60 was not the way to get from Va Beach, VA (NAS Oceana) to Tulsa.  Getting to I-40 was not convenient but once on I-40 it was a breeze to Tulsa, except for the 55 MPH speed limit.  Oh, and a bunch of snow on a visit after my Navy days in Jan 1978 made the trip across TN interesting.

Thanks for the back and forth, rdj and Aquaman.  Very edifying for this relative newbie.

I know, right?

AM here are some pics of Codsen's mansion which was where the University Club Tower is now. The neighborhood is now part of Riverview but it was Stonebreaker Heights back in the day:

(http://riverviewtulsa.com/images/cosden.gif)
(http://riverviewtulsa.com/images/codsen2.bmp)

Cosden built beautiful buildings.  It was his building at 4th & Boston that became the Mid-Continent Tower.

AquaMan, the hill isn't very logical.  I think that is why a bunch of us "creative" and "left of center" people like it.

I love Tulsa history.  I was never much of a buff about world history or even early American history.  However, the fact that I can walk the same steps, sidewalks, tunnels, etc as people who had a profound effect on our city, region and country is very intriguing to me.

Wow! What a beautiful home Cosden built. Can you imagine the mindset that looked at it and said, "Let's tear down this historic pos and build a high rise"? It must have really been in bad shape. Yet the Oral Roberts building still stands. ;)

Carlton?  Can we show Aqua the houses Oral tore down to build that POS he called abundant life?

This is going to hurt, isn't it.

Yes.  Wait until he tells you about the tree, the girlscouts, and Oral.

He can lob some doozies about what was and what almost wasn't here in Tulsa.

That building pisses me off.

The primary structure that was torn down by OR was the Sinclair Mansion at 17th and Cheyenne Ave...I've never found a picture of it.

Here are some representative structures on Boulder Ave at 15th and 14th

(http://riverviewtulsa.com/images/kendallabrum001.jpg)
(http://riverviewtulsa.com/images/millionare.bmp)

The first house on the left in the top picture looks very similar to a house at the base of Reservoir Hill.  The arches are very similar.  Interesting.

Millionaire Row. Sweet. Has a better ring to it than Abundant Life.

Are these from Beryl Ford's collection?

I would bet money they are.  I could spend hours looking at those photos.  They're simply fascinating.  Photos were taken of intersections as they were in the mid to late 50s and early sixties.  Great stuff.

Some are from the Kendalabrum from the TU library.

A couple of things stand out. One is the cool curved, acorn street lights that don't appear to have any power lines going to them. Either they were gas or buried lines. Victorian looking.

Second is the absence of cars parked on the streets. I think I know why. The 1909 pic may have a horse drawn buggy on the street. Either there weren't many cars in town or they were parked back by the alleys.

US 75 doesn't provide much North of here. I've storm chased through that area and most of what runs through Kansas is a two lane road similar to what state highway 33 looks like between here and Guthrie. Heck, the minute you run into Kansas, you are greeted with what was a four lane highway (with a center grassy median) on the Oklahoma side suddenly merging into a two lane road and a stop sign not too far thereafter. Not very conducive to business, commerce, and heavy travel if you ask me. And in the case of places like Independence, KS, it winds through the town instead of remaining straight. I'm not sure what most people use to travel to Tulsa from Kansas City, but I can almost bet that it has something to do with I-44.

169 is pretty good if you are going to Johnson County destinations or really anywhere on the KCK side.

I take 169 thru Coffeyvile to go to KC.   Some take I-44 and cut over.

When I was going once or twice a month, it was usually I-44 to Carthage and up US71 from there.  US71 is damn near interstate rated highway.

When we go we are visiting friends in Prairie Village which is just on east of the border of KS/MO.  Usually stay downtown at either Phillips or now the new Hilton President.

Do you think its faster to get to the downtown area via Carthage/US 71?

Probably not, but I wasn't going downtown on the outset of the trip.  Usually wound up staying out by the Downtown airport.  I went with gamblers, dontcha know, so we wanted to stay by the Station (Ameristar now I believe) so we usually stayed out in North KC or somewhere near Randolph.  But US71 has no slowdowns that I can recall.

Last fall 169 had quite a bit of construction and it added about 30-45 minutes to the trip because of the detour.

I've taken just about every combination of 169, I-44, 69, 75, 71 (and even I-35) to get to various parts of KC

Just sticking to 169 seems to be the best route regardless.   I'm usually told I'm an idiot by the take I-44 to 71 croud.
Here me out:

Google gives 3 suggestions

• I-44 E and US-71 N - 271 mi, 4 hours 22 mins
• I-44 E and US-69 N - 254 mi, 4 hours 25 mins
• US-169 N - 244 mi, 4 hours 22 mins

It would usually take me 3 hours and 45 min to get to my destination no matter which route I would take.
The 71 route is the longest (distance wise) and involves a toll road.   The only convenient "potty break" is the Vinita McDonalds

169:  Coffeyville has several rest-stop options, There's a Gas station right at the Garnett, KS split that seems to be super convenient.    And there are several other clean gas-stations along the way (such as Iola I think).   Yes, there's a fair amount of 2 lane road, and a couple speed traps to be aware of, but, it's no slower that the other routes and it offers a little bit of "scenery" and munchy/restroom options along the way.

Worst route:  US-75

Note:  My vote of 169 definitely did not apply during the big crappy detour that added 30 minutes

Not sure about the convenenient potty break on 71.  There are several locations in Nevada MO right off the 71 exit