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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: rdj on June 01, 2011, 08:20:56 am



Title: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
Post by: rdj on June 01, 2011, 08:20:56 am
County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
Published: 6/1/2011  2:02 AM
Last Modified: 6/1/2011  8:16 AM

Tulsa County commissioners took two steps forward Monday in their effort to construct a new juvenile justice facility.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=333&articleid=20110601_16_A1_TlaCut858032


(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110601_A1_a1countyapprovesfunds06012.jpg)

Seriously??  Nearly everyone acknowledges the city/county made a mistake by building David L Moss downtown.  Now, they want to put the juvenile justice center across the street?  This is just what an emerging Owen Park & revitalizing Tulsa Country Club needs, traveling thru an enhanced skid row to access the "glory" that will be the Brady District.  Can someone at the county please pull their head out of their arse?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: we vs us on June 01, 2011, 09:09:59 am
I saw that.  Total planning fail.  This is the kind of ridiculousness that can erase all the gains made by our "organic" development model.  Spook the risktakers and rehabbers and you're back to square one in the Brady and near the BOK. 


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Jeff P on June 01, 2011, 09:13:07 am
Wow.

Talk about a head-scratcher.

Almost directly across the the street from the BOK Center. 

Seriously... W T F?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 01, 2011, 09:24:10 am
its not hard to figure really. the answer is in the highlighted map.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: ZYX on June 01, 2011, 09:25:28 am
No, no, no!

This would be a real slap in the face to all the developers downtown. I'm begging for this not to happen.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 09:25:30 am
Fine where do we put it then?  

I don't see this as adding any derelict density to the area than there already is as it's a juvenile center and most likely when detainees are released (60 beds proposed), they will go back to their families or be moved on to long term detention facilities.

It also houses juvenile court and counseling services for youth and families.  Helps to know what the actual mission of the facility is before poo-poo'ing the location as too close to emerging housing and entertainment.  The existing facility is in the shadows of Brady Heights, yet I don't seem to see any zombie-like youths recently released from the juvie center wandering up Charles Page toward downtown.

From the Tulsa County web site:

"The mission of the Tulsa County Juvenile Bureau is to collaboratively promote and administer prevention, justice and effective treatment in a fair, timely and appropriate manner with dignity and respect for the needs of the children, youth and families and for the safety or our community.
 
Oklahoma developed one of the first juvenile courts in the county in 1909.  In 1950, the Tulsa county Juvenile Court was established in its own facility and provided a judge specializing in juvenile law.  In 1968, a juvenile center was built to house the courts and the supportive programs for the juvenile justice system.
 
The programs of the Juvenile Bureau serve those youth and families involved in the juvenile courts, or at risk for involvement.  The Juvenile Bureau serves over four thousand youth and their families per year and provides the following services and programs.
 
INTAKE
The Intake Department receives all referrals of youth that have committed an offense, conducting an assessment and recommending a disposition.  The majority of referrals are diverted out of the juvenile justice system and into community services for further follow."

http://www.tulsacounty.org/TulsaCounty/dynamic.aspx?id=736


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 09:26:43 am
Wow.

Talk about a head-scratcher.

Almost directly across the the street from the BOK Center. 

Seriously... W T F?

This is on the north side of the tracks.  What is there now is hardly attractive.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: ZYX on June 01, 2011, 09:31:11 am
Conan, we need to work on moving these out of Tulsa, not in downtown. Stick them a couple miles outside the city, away from houses and businesses.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 09:37:10 am
Conan, we need to work on moving these out of Tulsa, not in downtown. Stick them a couple miles outside the city, away from houses and businesses.

What else will relocate across from the county jail?  Nothing.  No one wants to open a retail center, bar, or restaurant across from a correctional facility.  The land has incredibly limited appeal for any sort of commercial purpose due to it's current neighbor. 

There's zero chance of voters approving to move a jail which is, what, less than 15 years old.  We are pretty much stuck with the DL Moss in it's current location for another 30-40 years if we can use previous building life-spans as a guide. 

This land is blighted old warehouse space which Storey uses to store cars.

This will in no way shape or form limit commerce in the Brady district nor have any direct impact on property values in Owen Park, Brady Heights, or around the Country Club.  Especially considering what the purpose of the Juvenile Center is.  Did anyone read the link I provided yet?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 01, 2011, 09:42:27 am
If we are stuck with DL Moss for 30-40 years, why tack another 15-20 on top of that by building this?

The Turner Park & White City neighborhoods swear the city is hell bent on moving all social services out of downtown into their neighborhood so the development bloc can benefit.  This "development" certainly flies in the face of that theory.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: ZYX on June 01, 2011, 09:45:25 am
I'm not saying that something better could take over that property. Right now, I'd rather have it empty. It may be 70 years, but eventually it would be nice to have all the jails, correctional facilities, etc., out of downtown. They don't have to be moved far away, just a few miles. Then, someday, new development would fill those empty lots.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 01, 2011, 09:46:53 am
Maybe they could build it underground and place a nice park on the land...a multi-level structure with parking for the BOK?  It'd be pretty secure I'd imagine.



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Teatownclown on June 01, 2011, 09:54:25 am
The west bank with all the environmental issues might be the best place to put the delinquent center.

The dye was cast with the jail...which should have been as far out of the city boundry as possible. But Mayor Savage, on Mayor Randle's heels, pushed it down there. The Day Center was poorly located as well.

It's history. Maybe a giant wall on the west side of Denver separating the Brady Franklin district from the Indigent/Prison (Zarrow/Moss) district would solve this inner city inconsistency.

It's a shame the way downtown redeveloped in a hit and miss manner. The Penguin District languishes while the Snider District decays.....


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 01, 2011, 09:56:06 am
"What else will relocate across from the county jail?  Nothing.  No one wants to open a retail center, bar, or restaurant across from a correctional facility.  The land has incredibly limited appeal for any sort of commercial purpose due to it's current neighbor.  "

And there is the answer C. The only potential buyer for the land is one of Storey's best friends, the County. The city being the other one.

The construction of Moss is pre-fab throw away. We should look into re-purposing that whole area in order to exploit its highest and best use which derives from the potential of surrounding neighborhoods and investment in the Arena and downtown. Just saying the die is already cast and adding to the mistakes is not a good plan.

I would also question the decision to put the juvenile center near an existing shelter and jail considering the bleed over into this area by its denizens. I speak from having direct experience with the jv system. They are impressive with their dedication and use of resources. I wonder why they don't expand the location on Gilcrease Drive? I forget, is that land not available?

Anyway, I just came back from Norman, OK where I noted they have clustered many of their human services in the north east part of town where they can benefit from the synergy created. They are not near a jail from what I can tell. Psychiatric hospital, (well run, blended in) homeless shelter, county health department, etc. all within walking distance from each other and nearby downtown commercial area. Good plan and seems to be working.

We made a mistake and we should stop compounding it.
 


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Teatownclown on June 01, 2011, 10:07:33 am


We City leaders in the 1980's made a mistake and we should stop compounding it.
 

That and the current form of government (don't get me started on 2025) ...... need to be stopped from further compounding....but that does give me the idea of calling the walled in area the Compound District! :D


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Jeff P on June 01, 2011, 10:08:30 am
This is on the north side of the tracks.  What is there now is hardly attractive.

I know.

I understand that the actual impact on people and events downtown will be about the same as the Moss center - which is negligible to none.

The problems is the perception that it creates with prospective visitors and investors in downtown.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 01, 2011, 10:18:39 am
I don't know about negligible. If you mean few people are (reportedly) assaulted then yes. If you mean development, property value, and fear factor, then no. Walk over by the Daycenter at the times of day when the hopeless are congregating and tell me it has negligible effect. One of my friends who fights substance abuse refuses to visit the area unless she needs a particular substance. Then with trepidation. She simply won't stay at the center for any reason. Its more than perception, though that would be enough, its the reality of being near the river, near the tracks, near the jail, near a homeless warehouse AND near an entertainment district.

You have to ask yourself, "Is this in the best interests of the program, the city or is it the best interests of the landowner?"



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: ZYX on June 01, 2011, 10:22:46 am
Quote
You have to ask yourself, "Is this in the best interests of the program, the city or is it the best interests of the landowner?"

Exactly.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
Post by: rdj on June 01, 2011, 10:33:59 am


You have to ask yourself, "Is this in the best interests of the program, the city or is it the best interests of the landowner?"



Bingo!

In my OP I can't believe I didn't think of the Brady Heights neighborhood.  Duh.

If you read the story or the minutes of the meeting you'll find the dissenting vote was Commissioner Smaligo.  He and his wife have remodeled a home in the Brady Heights neighborhood.  This would put the proposed center about ten blocks from his home.  I'm going to guess those of us who oppose this facility will find an unlikely ally in John.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: RecycleMichael on June 01, 2011, 10:35:46 am
I just rented a building two blocks to the east of the jail.

Yes, being that close to the jail worries me and probably is a factor in why my rent is affordable. I have been there for four months and have had no incidents so far.

I want to live in a fantasy world where we don't need things like a Juvenile Justice Center or a jail, but I live here.

I hate to admit that I agree with Conan. I think a beautiful new building is better on that lot than what is there now. I don't think I will have that many more instances of trouble after it is built.

Bottom line, we really need this center. My father was a 20 year police officer here in Tulsa and 18 of those were in the Juvenile division. I saw up close the challenges of treating juveniles differently than adults. You can really make a difference if you approach it right. This center has real potential to change all of our lives.

I completely supported Karen Keith when she ran for county commissioner on this issue. Thank you Karen for keeping your promise.

Nobody wants to live near anything that is related to any social service. No one wants to live near the landfill either. But until we eliminate juvenile deliquency or recycle everything, we will have a need for these facilities.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 01, 2011, 10:46:36 am
I think a beautiful new building is better on that lot than what is there now.

Is there a rendering of this project?  If it looks like Moss...it's not an improvement over jack-squat.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 01, 2011, 10:57:12 am
I just rented a building two blocks to the east of the jail.

Yes, being that close to the jail worries me and probably is a factor in why my rent is affordable. I have been there for four months and have had no incidents so far.

I want to live in a fantasy world where we don't need things like a Juvenile Justice Center or a jail, but I live here.

I hate to admit that I agree with Conan. I think a beautiful new building is better on that lot than what is there now. I don't think I will have that many more instances of trouble after it is built.

Bottom line, we really need this center. My father was a 20 year police officer here in Tulsa and 18 of those were in the Juvenile division. I saw up close the challenges of treating juveniles differently than adults. You can really make a difference if you approach it right. This center has real potential to change all of our lives.

Nobody wants to live near anything that is related to any social service. No one wants to live near the landfill either. But until we eliminate juvenile deliquency or recycle everything, we will have a need for these facilities.


When "ifs" and "buts" are candy and nuts we'll all be happy at Christmas!

No one challenges the concept, the good it can achieve or even the general location. It is the specific location that bothers me. Is there anyone who thinks the location of the current grouping of services is its best use? Even a good use?  Curious that Storey can unload what you all have described as poor quality premises during bad economic times to their old buddies. Market value?

I drive by the much improved location of the controversial homeless housing building at Admiral and Yale and wonder what happened to all the street people that were supposed to be wandering, pillaging and begging in the area. They aren't. And yet we learn little from that experience. Had that operation been built where the JV center is planned it would have failed on all counts.

No, people are not knee jerk opposed to social services seamlessly integrated into areas where they are well planned and well run. They are near Maple Ridge and Ranch Acres for heaven's sake. They are suspicious of a city/county that keeps poring good money after bad, into the pockets of the usual suspects and calling it "the best we could do". Either commit to doing downtown with a plan or give it up and hope for low rents.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 12:02:41 pm
Bingo!

In my OP I can't believe I didn't think of the Brady Heights neighborhood.  Duh.

If you read the story or the minutes of the meeting you'll find the dissenting vote was Commissioner Smaligo.  He and his wife have remodeled a home in the Brady Heights neighborhood.  This would put the proposed center about ten blocks from his home.  I'm going to guess those of us who oppose this facility will find an unlikely ally in John.

I don't see Smaligo's house as a relevant issue, really.  He was saying he was not in favor of Perry starting negotiations because the rest of the funding mechanisms are not lined out yet, if I read it correctly.  The current center is probably less than 10 blocks off in the other direction of Brady Heights and may actually be closer.  You can get a good view of it descending on the bike trail into Newblock.  There were far worse problems created by the tent city people living along the Arkansas River banks by Newblock Park than were ever created by this center.

I'd rather see the entire area bordered to the south by the tracks and the IDL on the other sides not have homeless shelters and correctional facilities, but considering what already exists at significant investment: DL Moss, Starvation Army, and the Day Center, who wants to be the first to start ponying up the $500mm or so it would take to relocate all of those facilities somewhere else?

Move them two miles from the city and sooner or later, development will catch up with them.  No matter where you put it, it will be faced with NIMBY's.  

DL Moss, S.A., and DCFTH were built when any sort of serious re-development was languishing in the Brady District and the BOK Center wasn't even a sketch on a cocktail napkin.  The conversation here is not unlike the people who moved into a new housing development built off the end of Love Field in Dallas, then tried to get the airport shut down because of all the noise.

I frequent the Brady District as do many others on here.  I rarely, if ever, am approached by a homeless person.  This center will not increase homelessness or crime in the area.

I'm not a fan of it, but considering the neighbors (I think Tulsa County Sheriff's Dept. is even between BOK, the tracks, and this site), what other logical use for this property is there?  As well, being close to law enforcement facilities is a logical location.  I fail to see how a juvenile center will make one bit of negative difference to the area.  I suppose the rest of you are struggling with this since no one seems to have bothered to read what the center actually contains and what it's purpose is.  It will remove some more rickety-looking buildings and prevent it from being a seedy, over-grown lot in the TDA inventory for the next 50 years.  Like it or not, it's progress and it is a needed facility.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 01, 2011, 12:26:22 pm
I lived in the Turner Park neighborhood when the N Yale project was built and was supportive.  I chastised our neighbors for being so hateful in their response.  I moved my family (that includes three children under the age of eight) from Turner Park to the base of Reservoir Hill 18 months ago.  Trust me, I'm not a NIMBY kind of person.

I am aware of what this center offers.  You are correct in saying the center in and of itself will not increase homelessness.  However, perception is reality.  I know many, many people that believe with all this is within them downtown isn't safe because of the jail and is full of homeless people.  I have argued with them until I am blue in the face and their perception remains.  As a result they rarely visit downtown and when they do they don't linger.  

My problem with this project is, why should we add to the perception issue that surrounds downtown by building a "juvy"?

As far as Smaligo's argument in the meeting, do you really think he is going to stand up say he doesn't want it because it is ten blocks from his home?  He's a smart guy and will do everything he can to fight it without playing that card.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 12:42:47 pm
I lived in the Turner Park neighborhood when the N Yale project was built and was supportive.  I chastised our neighbors for being so hateful in their response.  I moved my family (that includes three children under the age of eight) from Turner Park to the base of Reservoir Hill 18 months ago.  Trust me, I'm not a NIMBY kind of person.

I am aware of what this center offers.  You are correct in saying the center in and of itself will not increase homelessness.  However, perception is reality.  I know many, many people that believe with all this is within them downtown isn't safe because of the jail and is full of homeless people.  I have argued with them until I am blue in the face and their perception remains.  As a result they rarely visit downtown and when they do they don't linger.  

My problem with this project is, why should we add to the perception issue that surrounds downtown by building a "juvy"?

As far as Smaligo's argument in the meeting, do you really think he is going to stand up say he doesn't want it because it is ten blocks from his home?  He's a smart guy and will do everything he can to fight it without playing that card.

And as I pointed out, I believe the current facility may actually be closer to his house than 10 blocks.

The entire Williams Center/PAC area was planned, designed and built when the whole area to the north was a complete shithole, yet they still built it and it became an employment and commerce center.  Areas to the east of it weren't much better.

Much like the center at Admiral and Yale, there will be an uproar.  After the project is finished, no one will remember why there was an uproar in the first place.

People's perceptions aren't keeping significant numbers from sell out shows at the BOK, Brady, or Cain's, or walking around downtown after dark to eat, go to a ballgame, have a drink, or watch a bike race.  Truth be known, there's lots of people like myself who feel perfectly safe in downtown (now that Kitchell and his clubs have been run out ;) ) and it's showing in the successful businesses and new developments which keep coming in- long after the DL Moss and shelters were built in downtown.  I've heard of far more violent incidents happening in the Brookside district in recent years than I've heard of downtown.

And I see the negative perception of the myopic few as a good thing.  For each person with a negative paradigm about downtown, that means one additional parking spot for those of us who don't share that.  ;D

The worst thing which ever happens is I might get asked for chump change from time-to-time.  When I sense it coming, I immediately blurt out: "Hey brother, you wouldn't have five bucks you can spare me would you?"  I don't even remember when the last time was I got hit up it's been long enough ago.

And I salute you for moving to the base of Reservoir Hill.  To be perfectly honest, I don't know that I would have been so bold.  I could live on the hill but not sure I'd trust the neighborhood at the base.  That's a great little area of gingerbreads, though and seems actually pretty well kept.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: ZYX on June 01, 2011, 01:30:12 pm
Conan, I share a similar opinion with rdj. I'm not scared of the jail or anything, but I'm scared of the perception it creates. SO many people out here in Bixby will not go downtown because it is "scary" and a "bad part of town." I try to say otherwise but they don't care. Many of them still believe that nobody even goes downtown. This will only add to their perception.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Hoss on June 01, 2011, 01:33:53 pm
Conan, I share a similar opinion with rdj. I'm not scared of the jail or anything, but I'm scared of the perception it creates. SO many people out here in Bixby will not go downtown because it is "scary" and a "bad part of town." I try to say otherwise but they don't care. Many of them still believe that nobody even goes downtown. This will only add to their perception.

Then I say let those people stay away, as you'll never change their perception of downtown.  Myself?  I've been going to the BOK since it opened.  Hockey games, a few other events.  Downtown is really starting to morph into a destination.  That there are those who won't go because they think it's beneath them, or for whatever reason, is their loss.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 01, 2011, 01:36:06 pm
That there are those who won't go because they think it's beneath them, or for whatever reason, is their loss.

They're the ones who have opinions about a subject without actually researching to have any knowledge.

They would vote for Sally Kern.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 01:37:17 pm
Conan, I share a similar opinion with rdj. I'm not scared of the jail or anything, but I'm scared of the perception it creates. SO many people out here in Bixby will not go downtown because it is "scary" and a "bad part of town." I try to say otherwise but they don't care. Many of them still believe that nobody even goes downtown. This will only add to their perception.

In that case, the die is cast and you won't overcome their brand of ignorance no matter what is or isn't built across from the jail.  In other words, I don't think this is going to prevent anyone who already comes downtown from coming downtown, and no amount of salesmanship will convince those who think it's a dangerous place now to ever visit downtown.

I personally fail to see why they can't provide the five additional beds needed and whatever other space requirements they may have at the original center via renovations, but if the county thinks it needs a new center it must be so, riiiiiight?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 01:38:29 pm

They would vote for Sally Kern.

I need a shower now.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 01, 2011, 01:42:08 pm
Impossible to argue these points. Sharp wasn't serious about Brady? Williams center compared to a Juvy center? No concerns with putting minors in close proximity to hardened criminals because its convenient? Bad planning is okay because it is just a continuation of previous oversight? Just hold your breath, shut your eyes and the uproar will settle and we'll all wonder what the furor was about?

Honestly.

No way around this. Its continuation of poor planning. Do like other cities, or even an infill developer...sometimes its just a better idea to scrape the land and do it right. Lots of public schools being vacated for lack of demand and poor planning and we're going to spend tax dollars to de-gentrify downtown? Hmmm....


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 02:03:55 pm
Impossible to argue these points. Sharp wasn't serious about Brady? Williams center compared to a Juvy center? No concerns with putting minors in close proximity to hardened criminals because its convenient? Bad planning is okay because it is just a continuation of previous oversight? Just hold your breath, shut your eyes and the uproar will settle and we'll all wonder what the furor was about?

Honestly.

No way around this. Its continuation of poor planning. Do like other cities, or even an infill developer...sometimes its just a better idea to scrape the land and do it right. Lots of public schools being vacated for lack of demand and poor planning and we're going to spend tax dollars to de-gentrify downtown? Hmmm....

I don't know where you harvested that Sharp wasn't serious about the Brady from my comments.  Sharp was a land owner in the Brady shepherding a bunch of vacant and low rent buildings he hoped would morph into a great entertainment and retail district at some point, there was no critical mass of commerce in the mid to late 1990's.  There was Spaghetti Warehouse, Caz's, and some other transient galleries and clubs which would come and go. IN SPITE of a jail and homeless shelters being constructed a few blocks to the west, it obviously has not stifled development one iota in the Brady District.  Rather, it's accelerated in recent years.  The jail and shelters certainly hasn't kept you from visiting the district either, why should it keep others from visiting?

Putting minors in proximity to hardened criminals?  Are you are aware there's an adult detention facility practically next door to the current facility and has been for years?  It's hyperbole and fear-mongering like this which feeds the ignorance of those who think of downtown as some sort of scary place to avoid.

What sort of business do you suppose would go well directly south of the current jail?  How about a transient park so transients can congregate there and further the image you seem to think predominates downtown?

Honestly.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 01, 2011, 02:12:43 pm
The bottom line for me is, there are 570 sq miles or 364,000 acres within Tulsa County and they chose those 7.5 acres to put this center?  C'mon, there has to be a better place.  

I want these kids to have every opportunity to be successful.  Their success, or lack thereof, has a great impact on the crime and health of our community.  On the other hand, I just don't think this location is what is best for our community as a whole.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2011, 02:26:58 pm
The bottom line for me is, there are 570 sq miles or 364,000 acres within Tulsa County and they chose those 7.5 acres to put this center?  C'mon, there has to be a better place.  

I want these kids to have every opportunity to be successful.  Their success, or lack thereof, has a great impact on the crime and health of our community.  On the other hand, I just don't think this location is what is best for our community as a whole.

Considering the primary purpose of the center is not simply a detention center but also Juvie and family courts, as well as counseling services, it necessarily needs to be somewhat convenient to families, judges, attorneys, and visitors.

Anyone know what the current redevelopment status is of Rader or Hissom?  A bucolic setting out in the Osage Hills...oops, that's Osage County.  I can picture several spots to the NW of Tulsa which might be ideal, but again, I'm pretty sure wrong county.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 01, 2011, 02:31:42 pm
Well, it looks like there is a need for some more information so here goes:

The proposal for that site has been reviewed and endorsed by many involved in the redevelopment area and a justice complex at that location was part of the downtown redevelopment plan prepared for the City by Jack Crowley, PHD, Faicp\Fasla.  

At this point the location is not 100% set, but I would say that is the primary site is as shown in the article however there are issues with it that I will not go into while negoiations are underwayů

When you understand that a Juvenile justice center is so much more than detention (which is the smallest part of such a facility by the way) you will see that first and foremost it is a Court House (where all things Juvenile are handled like adoptions, abuse and neglect cases in addition to offenders which is the perception) and offices where a direct benefit to the location will be hundreds of employees and visitors to the facility the vast majority of which are there on daily business that should provide a boost in the base to the Brady, just as the City Hall relocation did to the Blue Dome eateries.

The location relationship with DLM is a distinct advantage and may allow for shared (hidden) institutional resources which are expected to save on both direct construction and long term operational costs.  Understand there will be no-cross connection of Juvenile Detainees (who are in the facility on a limited temporary basis while awaiting adjudication and the Jail population and any state Juvenile inmates that might be housed there (new stature).  

Plus the new facility will provide a (now) needed architectural transition between the institutional style of DLM and the BOK and Brady District.  No the County wonĺt do a monument, thatĺs not their style, but I fully expect a quality design of economic value that is respectful of the mission, location and neighbors to be developed by Selser Schaefer (who is responsible for much of the work in the Brady) and their specialty consultants who were selected for the design work and participated in and endorsed the primary site evaluation.   There were renderings developed and released previously however they are out-of-date with the current direction and should not be considered as currently accurate.  

As for being across the street from the BOK Center; Parking for the proposed facility will be across the street, then across the tracks from the loading dock at the BOK Center but ultimately, and with creativity, this new parking facility will be able to contribute to event parking (initially planned as surface parking that can be convertible to structured parking if and when the demand develops) as other more prime parking locations redevelop.

For the question about the existing site; Expansion has been studied as has the potential for saving what is serviceable and replacing what is bad on adjacent lands since tearing down and rebuilding on the same site is logistically impossible.  The real issue is that the existing site and everything within reason around it is located within the 100 year flood regulatory flood plain which is curable however protection from the 500 year flood (a River risk) is not as that overtops the levee (which is facing issues related to the upcoming re-certification) and that locating "critical facilities" within that level of flood hazard violates both the City's and the County's FEMA approved "All Hazard Mitigation Plans" which is required for those entities to receive disaster relief assistance.

And to future comments that the County should take over the Rader Center, we actually looked at it, (likely could have had it for a song of our choosing) but the facility is of a totally inappropriate (unsafe) design for the use which is what has driven the State to close it.  Oh and it too resides within the 500 year flood elevation for the River so expansion/new construction would face the same constraits.

If you wonder why the County needs a new facility go visit what it there...  The existing facility is 55 beds the new facility is proposed at a minimum of 60 with room for significant growth, the actual count for the new facility still being evaluated and I expect that it will grow.  

The funds approved for acquiring a new site were originally approved for expansion of the existing facility which was proven unfeasible and has been proofed by many sources including a special task/request of the Vision 2025 Sales Tax Overview Committee.    

Hope that helps, Iĺll check back for more questions.



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on June 01, 2011, 02:37:08 pm
Considering the primary purpose of the center is not simply a detention center but also Juvie and family courts, as well as counseling services, it necessarily needs to be somewhat convenient to families, judges, attorneys, and visitors.

Anyone know what the current redevelopment status is of Rader or Hissom?  A bucolic setting out in the Osage Hills...oops, that's Osage County.  I can picture several spots to the NW of Tulsa which might be ideal, but again, I'm pretty sure wrong county.

There's a nice empty spot at 201st and Memorial on the south east corner, very few houses around, no major business.
Then just listen to all the people complain about having to drive out there.

(sarcasm)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: SXSW on June 01, 2011, 02:52:41 pm
The rendering looks decent, certainly better than rusting warehouses:

(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/Thumbs/20100428_fulljuvie0000428_package.jpg)

Denver has all of its judicial/social services downtown, including a new multi-million dollar Justice Center aka County Jail.  It hasn't affected development there.  


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: erfalf on June 01, 2011, 03:09:36 pm
Fort Worth as well. Does not seem to matter one iota.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 01, 2011, 03:31:59 pm
Vision 2025:  Thank you for the information.  You make a lot of good points and if executed perfectly then it appears to not be a scourge on downtown.  I'm not in the make downtown like Disneyland where everything is perfectly laid out camp, but I do want to be very thoughtful about what we do and where put things.

Tulsa has a lot of hodge-podge and we are paying for those development sins.

As easy as it is to say, "let those southie's stay out of downtown" it isn't that easy.  Downtown is like any destination, if you keep putting the same type of things the same type of people will come.  Tulsa has a finite number of "those kind of people" and we need to understand that a thriving downtown has attractions to bring all people from the surrounding region.  Continuing to add social services to downtown does not help in attracting new visitors.

To use the overused, but convenient, example of downtown OKC.  Bricktown is not for everyone, in fact, I don't enjoy Bricktown, too contrived for me.  I prefer the area around Automobile Alley & the Film Exchange.  But, I realize that Bricktown brings in a lot of suburban visitors because it has developed a reputation as accessible, lit and secure.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 01, 2011, 04:17:52 pm
Any contention that DLM, Salvation Army, Daycenter have not affected downtown development or growth in surrounding neighborhoods is indefensible unless you know how those areas would have grown without their presence. You just don't know, but suppositions can be made. Brady floundered till the last decade even with Sharp's investment. In fact all of downtown floundered coincidental with the repurposing of that area. I remember a much more interesting little area where DLM is now that had gas stations, restaurants, a grocery store etc. Services for the surrounding hoods. Replaced by Bail Bondsmen, loan sharks and little else.

I don't think there will be more assaults, panhandling or other undesirable behavior. Never did. I just think the land could have and still can be put to better use. We'll never know because we don't look at all the possible outcomes. Just the ones the city, the county and their planning buddies find convenient and cheap. That's our model. What did V call the DLM style, "intuitive"?! Right. I could have designed those tilt up slabs and called it Stevoni. ;)

Anyway, at least I now know why they can't expand in the current location. Now, if someone could explain how using some of the shuttered, recently improved schools, sitting in proximity to midtown/downtown that were designed for juveniles and office workers is NOT a good idea I'll consider it a productive day. Those buildings, like Wilson Jr. High or Cleveland could be picked up cheap and require little redesign. Franklin was changed successfully. The homeless shelter I saw in Norman was a former grade school seamlessly changed.

Did Crowley and the county consider that option?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 01, 2011, 04:53:12 pm
Sorry "Steveoni", intuitive was a typeo thanks for pointing it out, now corrected...


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 01, 2011, 06:17:52 pm
Sorry "Steveoni", intuitive was a typeo thanks for pointing it out, now corrected...
[/quote


Sort of has a ring to it doesn't it? Stevoni! Stevone' for the more sophisticated feel.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: carltonplace on June 02, 2011, 06:44:50 am
I just think the land could have and still can be put to better use.

This really is the crux of the argument. But as Conan points out the DLM clink is already built and it's not going anywhere. Other types of development are unlikely at this point other than additional social services or the businesses that thrive on the jail (bail bondsmen, auto impounds). To me the juvy is actually a step up as long as it is an attractive building with some green space.

There is momentum now in Owen Park, Brady Heights and Brady District; this proposal will not dampen that. In fact it might actually bring in some of those downtown haters when their delinquents get in trouble and then they can have lunch in the Brady and see that DT is not scary.  ;)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 02, 2011, 07:24:26 am
Your remarks are always thoughtful and well spoken Carlton. Perhaps because we spent some time talking at the Greek fest one time I can put your patient reasoning and pragmatism to a face.

Sometimes I think we're just lazy in Tulsa.

We want walkable neighborhoods, forms based zoning, mass transit and escape from GOB insider development. Then we just keep making the same mistakes because doing such things is really hard and requires expending political capital as well as taxpayer money. So, we let 13 buildings designed to do what the Juvy center needs (I know because one of my young boys went through that system successfully) go up for sale in a slow market while we endeavor to buy undesirable property from a long time associate, construct a new building using long time associates, in an area that should be slowly dismantled and repurposed. I'm sure Avalon admires our loyalty to their profit making purpose. It will indeed be a dreary compound in that area that our children will shake their heads in dismay as they reach middle age. Why did they put a cactus plant in the middle of a vegetable garden?!

Some of you travel a lot to OKC. Surely you've noticed the constant re-designing of that city. Its highways, its slums, its downtown and its entertainment venues. Our taxes pay for that. Yes, they have the seat of government, yes they have Tinker etc. etc. But so does St. Paul, yet Minneapolis is the strong sister. Why? Because cities like OKC and Minnie are more like a business that keeps tuning its product, investing in different futures and responding to needs. They don't seem to let their right wing or left wing politics get in the way of doing business. Business is amoral. If we want government run like business we need to understand that. Minnie totally redesigned their waterfront area even though it was not broken, but could be better. OKC does the same thing.  They have a culture of giant hypocrisy that allows them to rail at federal spending and activist government all the while making the most of each.

We are their moral cousin who actually believes the stuff we learned in church and school without question and attempt to live a life of smug, self righteous, condescension. Above all else, successful business is about planning, revising those plans and sometimes completely junking them, cutting your losses and moving on.

Don't worry. My vacation is almost over and I'll no longer have time for these rants. ;)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 02, 2011, 07:38:41 am
Quote
We want walkable neighborhoods, forms based zoning, mass transit and escape from GOB insider development.

And we always want social services in someone else's neighborhood.

Good Lord AquaMan, don't waste your vacation here, go enjoy the river  ;)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 02, 2011, 07:52:22 am
I intend to hit the river as soon as they put some water in it. Southwest Power is hogging it all.

Social services like the JV center are not at all objectionable. These are the same kids that live in the neighborhoods around Tulsa and go to school with our kids. The JV system attempts to give them a break, try to let them work off their sentences, expunge their records, monitor their behavior and provide access to counseling. The housing part is pretty temporary and serves to give them separation from the environments that put them there. It seems to work pretty well.

I wouldn't hesitate to support a facility in a defunct public school. Franklin grade school was put to use as a "street school" and hasn't really caused any problems serving a similar population. I am quite surprised that no one from TPS has tried to market the surplus schools in this way.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 02, 2011, 08:02:40 am
I intend to hit the river as soon as they put some water in it. Southwest Power is hogging it all.

Social services like the JV center are not at all objectionable. These are the same kids that live in the neighborhoods around Tulsa and go to school with our kids. The JV system attempts to give them a break, try to let them work off their sentences, expunge their records, monitor their behavior and provide access to counseling. The housing part is pretty temporary and serves to give them separation from the environments that put them there. It seems to work pretty well.

I wouldn't hesitate to support a facility in a defunct public school. Franklin grade school was put to use as a "street school" and hasn't really caused any problems serving a similar population. I am quite surprised that no one from TPS has tried to market the surplus schools in this way.

Technically, they aren't surplus yet.  School lets out today for the summer.

One issue seems to be the existing Juvenile facilities are dated, and then what do you do about the NIMBY's near Wilson, Barnard or one of the other schools?  Lots of deferred maintenance on many of the TPS buildings to be reckoned with. 

I think once this is said and done, if the Storey site is chosen, people can look at it and say it was a good redevelopment project.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 02, 2011, 09:00:18 am
They've known for quite awhile they would be closing. TPS should have been marketing them for at least a few weeks. Institutionally that amounts to a few seconds, I know.

Wilson and several of the other schools are in great shape. Some of them have had major upgrades to systems. Wilson had an expansion in the last few years. As far as NIMBY's go, well, as noted before they will always be around and always intransigent. Truth is knowledge. Once neighborhood leaders are introduced to the current JV, which is more cramped than it is outdated, they can see it poses no threat whatsoever and in fact will probably replace the commerce that will disappear because of the school closings.

Given the choice of a neighborhood school closing and remaining empty for an extended period of time, (an obvious sign of a dying neighborhood and an attractive nuisance to boot which lowers property values) vs an active, well maintained legal institution that would spur economic activity, most will choose the latter.

Its all in the presentation, doncha' know. ;) Anyway, the ship has plotted its course.



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 02, 2011, 09:31:21 am
Vision 2025, I went back and read your post and thought on it as I was mowing the yard last night.

To say that this center will provide economic boost to the area in a way similar to OTC is comical.  I can't imagine a restaurateur coming to me asking me to invest in his project and his business plan states his primary customer will be the visitors to the juvy hall.  I would laugh him out of my office.  This is the argument a mayor in Podunk, Oklahoma tells the towns folk when they are worried about a private prison taking over Farmer Brown's pastures.  Is the "economic development" and "job creation" the Tulsa Metro Chamber is dreaming up with their Tulsa's Future II program?

As I've said, we need to look at property and try and find the highest & best use for the existing buildings and/or land.  I've driven this area and did again this morning, the building in question is nothing special.  Personally, I could see the Dick Slankard building developed into great commercial space.  I still contend over time (I'm talking on a 10-20 year time horizon) this could be used for much more than a juvenile center.

Maybe, it will be developed into offices for attorneys and counselors specializing in juvenile services...


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 02, 2011, 09:38:25 am
Aquaman, (actually I like Steveoni or the ôGreat Steveoniö better) I can tell you that from significant experience with TPS I donĺt believe there is any facility in the inventory of closing schools or anywhere else for that matter that is of the appropriate construction and condition to be of any more use than a site that would have to be cleared to the ground in order to be or any use (and I'm an adaptive reuse fan) for the proposed facility but if you happen to know of any with the proper zoning please identify them and I'll personally take a look.

Oh and it's not SWPA that's hording water, Keystone has been below the power pool level all spring so no power releases and there have been only limited cooling water (PSO) and navigation releases.  That said there should be river flow for awhile now that the Turns are here and the CORPS makes releases to force nesting onto the higher  bars, so go have some fun!


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 02, 2011, 09:42:29 am
They've known for quite awhile they would be closing. TPS should have been marketing them for at least a few weeks. Institutionally that amounts to a few seconds, I know.

From what I know I wouldn't say that TPS is marketing them, however, there are definitely interested properties in some of the schools you mentioned.  I wouldn't  be surprised if one day we find that the selection process wasn't shaded by the "marketability" of the site.  Personally, I don't have a problem that (assuming the property goes to a good use and sold at market value), but I know others might.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 02, 2011, 09:45:11 am
Aquaman, (actually I like Steveoni or the ôGreat Steveoniö better) I can tell you that from significant experience with TPS I donĺt believe there is any facility in the inventory of closing schools or anywhere else for that matter that is of the appropriate construction and condition to be of any more use than a site that would have to be cleared to the ground in order to be or any use (and I'm an adaptive reuse fan) for the proposed facility but if you happen to know of any with the proper zoning please identify them and I'll personally take a look.

From experience with TPS I can't think of a facility in the TPS inventory of closing schools or anywhere else that is of the appropriate construction and condition to be of any more use than a site that would have to be cleared to the ground to be of any use (and I'm a big adaptive re-use fan) as useful for the proposed facility but if you happen to know of any with the proper zoning room for expansion and a bunch of parking and please identify them and I'll personally take a look.



Kirby, your reverb is on.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 02, 2011, 09:48:57 am
RDJ no data to support it and I'm not touting economic development as justification because those folks were already eating somewhere and to me economic development is new dollars coming to town but I think the potential added base to the Brady is valid developed from my personal observations and anticipation as a downtown office dweller. When City Hall moved the lunch lines at the Main Street eats' reduced and those in the BD increased...


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on June 02, 2011, 09:50:55 am
 I still contend over time (I'm talking on a 10-20 year time horizon) this could be used for much more than a juvenile center.

And 30 years ago it was the impound lot for Al Storey. I still say people want to try and undo 30+ years of neglect, to which I applaud but it's not going to happen overnight.

I go to events in downtown Phoenix frequently and the Maricopa County Jail, is no more than four to five blocks from Chase Field, US Airways Arena, Alice Coopers Town, The Hard Rock, Comerica Theater, and a lot of other places and it doesn't bother me in the least that I'm that close to the jail. An interview with  a gypsy cab driver said it the best about being around the jail waiting for fares, "Nobody coming out of the building has anything they can rob me with, and all they want, is to get home."


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 02, 2011, 09:51:36 am
Kirby, your reverb is on.
now that was strange... after my typo I hauled it out to word and back in you see the results LOL


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 02, 2011, 10:59:48 am
Aquaman, (actually I like Steveoni or the ôGreat Steveoniö better) I can tell you that from significant experience with TPS I donĺt believe there is any facility in the inventory of closing schools or anywhere else for that matter that is of the appropriate construction and condition to be of any more use than a site that would have to be cleared to the ground in order to be or any use (and I'm an adaptive reuse fan) for the proposed facility but if you happen to know of any with the proper zoning please identify them and I'll personally take a look.

Oh and it's not SWPA that's hording water, Keystone has been below the power pool level all spring so no power releases and there have been only limited cooling water (PSO) and navigation releases.  That said there should be river flow for awhile now that the Turns are here and the CORPS makes releases to force nesting onto the higher  bars, so go have some fun!


Then, the (Great)Steveoni' it is. ::).

I value your experience but I'm curious as to your conclusion. Some of these schools seem to be good candidates for adaptive re-use. Here's what I remember about the Juvy-

Parking Lot- most middle schools have parking areas

Intake Area- analagous to the lobby and administrative offices of Wilson middle school with some updated security

Lobby and consultation area- this was where the miscreants conferred with their counsel and waited for their court appearance. Could be an auditorium or lunch room of a middle school.

Court Rooms- easily could be converted class rooms.

Administrative Out take- The juveniles are counseled as to their obligations, referred to other organizations and generally documented. Pay fines or make arrangements. Middle school library or other rooms could suffice.

Quarters- I didn't visit these personally but the description was similar to a light security dormitory. Lots of rooms at a middle school and a gymnasium with shower facilities.

So, it seems to me that a typical middle school in good repair, like Wilson, would offer not only more space but two gymnasiums, a cafeteria, better access to area businesses, several acres of land and a nearby University. All at a lesser cost. Zoning would be more of a process than the current site selected as it always is in Tulsa but not insurmountable when the neighborhood is shown the alternatives.

Tern soup for dinner!

ps.- When I attended Wilson, it was a 7th, 8th, 9th school. It easily accommodated about 300 of us. It since has been expanded. It may still be using radiators and window a/c but if they could retrofit Central High downtown for heating/air I'm sure Wilson could be as well. This facility may be the most marketable they have considering its location near TU downtown and midtown.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 02, 2011, 12:53:14 pm
This reminds of a conversation I had with a city planner concerning a proposal to build a low income senior housing center on TDA owned lots at Main & Latimer. 

I fully appreciate the idea of TDA selling off land (which are they largest land owner in Tulsa or is just my imagination) and new construction north of downtown.  However, a low income senior housing center?  Why wouldn't we build something there that will fit with the existing apartment buildings that have become home to a growing group of young downtown loving hipsters and OSU students?  Aren't they what the Chamber & TYPROS tells us we are supposed to be attracting?  The answer?  Well, this is better than crack houses and vacant land.  Well sure it is better, but what does adding more low income housing to the area begat?  More low income housing and the lack of economic vitality that goes with them!

Have we become so enticed by the idea of reuse and infill that we are willing to accept anyone and anything that is willing to build on a piece of property?  I'm not a native Tulsan.  Part of the reason I chose to move here was because I sensed a desire to have a higher standard when it came to arts, architecture, public spaces, etc.  I guess that standard dissipated with the oil barons and I sensed the last breaths when I settled here nearly ten years ago.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 02, 2011, 01:09:46 pm
This reminds of a conversation I had with a city planner concerning a proposal to build a low income senior housing center on TDA owned lots at Main & Latimer. 

I fully appreciate the idea of TDA selling off land (which are they largest land owner in Tulsa or is just my imagination) and new construction north of downtown.  However, a low income senior housing center?  Why wouldn't we build something there that will fit with the existing apartment buildings that have become home to a growing group of young downtown loving hipsters and OSU students?  Aren't they what the Chamber & TYPROS tells us we are supposed to be attracting?  The answer?  Well, this is better than crack houses and vacant land.  Well sure it is better, but what does adding more low income housing to the area begat?  More low income housing and the lack of economic vitality that goes with them!

Have we become so enticed by the idea of reuse and infill that we are willing to accept anyone and anything that is willing to build on a piece of property?  I'm not a native Tulsan.  Part of the reason I chose to move here was because I sensed a desire to have a higher standard when it came to arts, architecture, public spaces, etc.  I guess that standard dissipated with the oil barons and I sensed the last breaths when I settled here nearly ten years ago.

There is a certain mind-set which has been discussed on here that lower income housing should be dispersed throughout a city to discourage large-scale ghettos.  I suspect there are severe restrictions on who can live or stay with a resident in a low income senior housing complex which would pretty much rule out gang-bangers hanging out in the parking lot at 2am.

Aside from that, college students aren't really much more affluent than seniors on a fixed income, so it's really not that incongruous.  A senior housing complex would at least be a quiet neighbor ;)

How do we decide where we should house the low income, mentally deficient, former criminals, homeless, etc. without pissing someone off?  It's not possible.  The downside to dispersing low income housing throughout a community can be seen if you drive by 61st between Riverside & Peoria or out east in the 21st & Garnett to 31st & Mingo area.  25 years ago, those were somewhat attractive and desirable areas to live.  However, if you contain all the low income housing to one geographic area you are met with: "that's not fair and that's discriminatory".  Aaarrgh!



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 02, 2011, 01:11:42 pm
  I suspect there are severe restrictions on who can live or stay with a resident in a low income senior housing complex


I'd take that bet.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: SXSW on June 02, 2011, 01:22:40 pm
There is a certain mind-set which has been discussed on here that lower income housing should be dispersed throughout a city to discourage large-scale ghettos.  I suspect there are severe restrictions on who can live or stay with a resident in a low income senior housing complex which would pretty much rule out gang-bangers hanging out in the parking lot at 2am.

Aside from that, college students aren't really much more affluent than seniors on a fixed income, so it's really not that incongruous.  A senior housing complex would at least be a quiet neighbor ;)

How do we decide where we should house the low income, mentally deficient, former criminals, homeless, etc. without pissing someone off?  It's not possible.  The downside to dispersing low income housing throughout a community can be seen if you drive by 61st between Riverside & Peoria or out east in the 21st & Garnett to 31st & Mingo area.  25 years ago, those were somewhat attractive and desirable areas to live.  However, if you contain all the low income housing to one geographic area you are met with: "that's not fair and that's discriminatory".  Aaarrgh!

There is no perfect solution.  Congregate all the "undesirable" areas and you get a full-blown ghetto.  Disperse them and you get mini-ghettos spread throughout the city.  One can argue Tulsa already has both of these scenarios with large sections of the city, from many people's perspective, off limits due to these factors.  Tulsa isn't alone and it's something many cities have to deal with.  How you deal with it is our current struggle.  In 20 years it will shift to entirely new areas...


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Patrick on June 02, 2011, 01:48:26 pm
When I want to ride the Osage Prairie Trail, I typically park along Riverparks and ride to the trail head at OSU-Tulsa.  If you follow the bike route, it takes you along Archer right in front of the Day Center.  I usually kick the speed up quite a bit as I don't feel comfortable along this stretch of Archer, especially in my cycling gear.  The folks meandering about typically occupy the area right outside the center as well as migrate across Archer to the south side of the street.  Usually lots of yelling, milling about, and generally odd behavior.  I hope the new facility might increase traffic in the area as well as police presence and help solve the loitering issue.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Red Arrow on June 02, 2011, 01:54:49 pm
I hope the new facility might increase traffic in the area as well as police presence and help solve the loitering issue.

Or move it somewhere else.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: we vs us on June 02, 2011, 01:56:17 pm
Was out on calls today and drove through the Brady.  Got some gifts at Glacier Chocolates, did a couple of loops around each block and I could name each thing that was going to go in.  Very encouraging, and the guy who owns Glacier was nearly jumping up and down about what the next year or two will hold.  Drove past the Borden Dairy buffer zone and then was right there in the Correctional District.  Talk about bustling.  People walking in the streets, hanging out, smoking, going into and out of bondsmen offices, etc.  Drove past the warehouse that would be the juvy facility and about 20 homeless(?) folk were sitting on the sidewalk in the shade, and then i saw one of 'em get up and go into the building.  

I have to admit, I'm torn.  I understand that probably the worst thing to border an area like what currently exists is a series of empty and/or derelict warehouses, and I can see -- on paper -- some of Vision2025's arguments making beautiful sense.  I'm very wary, however, of expanding anything that remotely resembles what's there now.  Our development environment seems so perpetually fragile that anything that could remotely tar it with negative PR seems ridiculous to me. It's not so much a NIMBY attitude as "why scotch something that finally has its own momentum?"  I'd vote for the juvy facility to be almost anywhere else in the city than in the Brady.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 02, 2011, 02:06:46 pm
Was out on calls today and drove through the Brady.  Got some gifts at Glacier Chocolates, did a couple of loops around each block and I could name each thing that was going to go in.  Very encouraging, and the guy who owns Glacier was nearly jumping up and down about what the next year or two will hold.  Drove past the Borden Dairy buffer zone and then was right there in the Correctional District.  Talk about bustling.  People walking in the streets, hanging out, smoking, going into and out of bondsmen offices, etc.  Drove past the warehouse that would be the juvy facility and about 20 homeless(?) folk were sitting on the sidewalk in the shade, and then i saw one of 'em get up and go into the building.  

I have to admit, I'm torn.  I understand that probably the worst thing to border an area like what currently exists is a series of empty and/or derelict warehouses, and I can see -- on paper -- some of Vision2025's arguments making beautiful sense.  I'm very wary, however, of expanding anything that remotely resembles what's there now.  Our development environment seems so perpetually fragile that anything that could remotely tar it with negative PR seems ridiculous to me. It's not so much a NIMBY attitude as "why scotch something that finally has its own momentum?"  I'd vote for the juvy facility to be almost anywhere else in the city than in the Brady.

But it's not in the Brady.  It's the correctional district.  You said it yourself.  Denver really does create somewhat of a demarcation line between the two.

Most of the people operating businesses in the Brady district with the possible exception of Spaghetti Warehouse, the Brady Theater, Mexicali (can't remember when they opened there), and the original Caz's bar have done so long after the jail and homeless facilities were located in the area.  It's rare I ever see loitering or malingering in the Brady district and I'm not aware of a disproportionate number of trouble calls to the area, other than for drunken bar patrons causing a disturbance.  I've left my truck parked on Main Street overnight before after cutting loose at the Hunt Club and returned the next morning to find it exactly as I left it.

A Steve Kitchell night club does more to hurt an entertainment and commerce district in six months than a juvenile center ever will.

The only way negative PR starts on a center like this is the spreading of misinformation by people who have not bothered to check their facts before yammering on about how bad this would be for the area.

Patrick- I'm far more concerned about riding the trail itself with stray dogs, broken glass, and wandering teens out of sight of most everyone else.  I've seen some weird stuff on that trail: couches, cast off carpet, a burned out lawn tractor, horse poop, etc.

A favorite 30 mile route of mine goes past Owen Park, out west Edison, north to Post Oak Lodge, north on 52nd West, meanders to Sperry then north up Cincinnati Hill and all the way up Cincinnati back to downtown.  Most of those people figure if a middle age white man is crazy enough to bike through the roughest part of north Tulsa in spandex, they are better off not to mess with him.  Believe it or not, north Tulsa drivers seem to be much more wary of and considerate of cyclists.

I feel much safer on Cincinnati than I do the Osage Trail.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on June 02, 2011, 02:12:04 pm
A Steve Kitchell night club does more to hurt an entertainment and commerce district in six months than a juvenile center ever will.

Six months? I thought it was more like three.

Conan, you ate at Coopers Town in Phoenix IIRC, did you feel unsafe about the area you were in?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 02, 2011, 02:15:19 pm
Six months? I thought it was more like three.

Conan, you ate at Coopers Town in Phoenix IIRC, did you feel unsafe about the area you were in?

Not at all and I believe we parked about two blocks away well after dark.

It's not uncommon in other large cities for a lot of the social services and correctional facilities to be in close proximity, that's what I'm finding somewhat laughable about this being schlocky development.  It's following a model of other cities we seem to want to emulate.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on June 02, 2011, 02:30:31 pm
Not at all and I believe we parked about two blocks away well after dark.

It's not uncommon in other large cities for a lot of the social services and correctional facilities to be in close proximity, that's what I'm finding somewhat laughable about this being schlocky development.  It's following a model of other cities we seem to want to emulate.

It's not that much different from when the jail was right next to the library and the CC Arena and across the street from an upscale hotel. I think it's a pretty good model to put those kinds of services together, and they are not that far from the county and city court houses so the transportation cost or lower for the county and for Tulsa, not so much for the outlying areas, but there is always a trade off.



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: carltonplace on June 02, 2011, 03:13:05 pm
I'm with Conan on this (but i get Aqua's point loud and clear). Yes, this is not optimal development in our downtown where we desperately need more retail, housing, people living in and around the core. If we could go back in time and build the clink somewhere else then all of these arguments hold water and the juvy should not go here...but we can't go back in time. The clink is there and the juvy makes sense there and the Brady will continue to grow in spite of it. Demarc it and make it it's own district: "penal place", "jail junction", "correctional corridor" and build some fast food joints or a Fridays and let folks make a day of it.

Downtown can be a destination for lots of reasons: see a concert, go to a festival, go to the library, sight see, get a great meal, bowl, break or bond a loved one out of jail.

Now lets get an urban shopping area in the East End.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
Post by: Truman on June 02, 2011, 04:11:06 pm
Question?

Is the following picture the area tha is being discussed?

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Tulsa%20Time/DTTulsaMasterPlanArcherCorridor.jpg)

If so it would appear that Mister Crawley, in his draft version, placed something other than a juvenile center in the location.

A Police Station. 

Are the Police going to possibly need a New station when "Brickhugger" is done?

Wait... That would be placing a positive in with a bunch of negatives.. That would not make one of three arterials a Real Life Ghetto.

That area could be used for a Justice Corridor. It could attract other development. But you would have to make people feel safe to go there and discourage the type of activity that is prominent now.



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on June 02, 2011, 04:20:09 pm
Looking at it from a distance, the area is pretty pinched in. You have 244 to the west of it, the tracks to the south, it's behind Avalon Justice to the east and has the jail to the north. Is TCSO still on Denver & 1st?  or is the above drawing also part of the plan?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 02, 2011, 09:56:31 pm
I've read this forum for several years and with this I feel like I should start posting since I have recently moved back to Tulsa as well.

This graphic I did might help people understand where this is with relation to the rest of downtown and current developments:

(http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1659/bradydistrict2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/bradydistrict2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I can't say that I think this is the best solution because I feel like this section of downtown has such great future potential. Once the Correctional Facility actually reaches the end of its life and needs to be replaced this area will be prime for redevelopment. Hopefully by that time we will have constructed a streetcar and maybe even the starter light rail line that has been in several planning documents. By adding on to the mess we have already created then we are just prolonging the expansion of development in downtown.

I do not think the actual construction of this will hamper or even make any of the current developers in downtown even blink. Like others have said a lot of major cities do have these facilities located in downtown/urban areas. I guess what my argument is, in 20-30 years think about how much farther along downtown development will be and how valuable this property and area is. In that time frame I would like to hope that the rest of the Brady District/Greenwood/Blue Dome areas would have filled up with infill development and adaptive reuse of the existing buildings. If we leave this to become just an area for Correctional type facilities that do nothing to build up the neighborhood we have waisted a HUGE amount of potential when it's located so close to the BOk Center, Brady Theater, Cain's, and along TWO identified transit corridors (the black lines with arrows in the image above).

Let's not destroy the potential of this area just because we have already made the mistake. This project won't destory the neighborhood but it certainly does nothing to improve or help it's value development wise. However, instead of just saying letĺs not build it here we should find a solution and a viable location to locate for this facility.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: carltonplace on June 03, 2011, 07:15:50 am
Looking at it from a distance, the area is pretty pinched in. You have 244 to the west of it, the tracks to the south, it's behind Avalon Justice to the east and has the jail to the north.

Yes, its bordered by the MLK EXPWY on the west, I244 on the North, the Elevated train tracks on the south. The east side is currently occupied by Bordens and J3:16 on Carson, and then the Brady District. On Denver it is visually seperated from Down Town and Brady heights by the raised barriers of the RR and I244.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: carltonplace on June 03, 2011, 07:17:48 am
Truman and LandArchPoke, welcome to the forum! Great first posts.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: SXSW on June 03, 2011, 07:27:59 am
I think it's all in how these civic buildings are designed.  If the design is attractive and urban, even if it's a jail, people won't be as opposed to it and it won't deter future development.  Take Denver's new downtown jail for instance.  It's located across the street from the new courthouse, and next to the highly secure Denver Mint and nearby City Hall and the Colorado State Capitol.  New midrises and lofts continue to go up in the blocks to the south. 

New Denver Jail
(http://denverinfill.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2009-08-25_jail3.jpg)

New Courthouse (across the street with a plaza in between)
(http://mountainstates.construction.com/images/2010/06/100601-wo4.jpg)

Both are LEED buildings with a green roof (which it appears the Juvy Center will have, at least in the rendering)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5B1WfOMoKrk/Ss-kGCCr1TI/AAAAAAAAAqg/X8sNzsjssag/s640/denver+justice+center2.jpg)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 03, 2011, 08:07:45 am
The points LandArch detail mirror my own. It seems there are two views to the issue.

One is an understanding that this is the continuation of a mistake made when DLM was built. This is not the highest and best use for this land. Being close to the Arena, the Brady and gentrifying neighborhoods, it could have blossomed into a new distinct consumer area. Unfortunately, the area was a victim of bad timing and short sighted vision. It still can blossom, but not if we keep doing the "easy button". The area could be piecemeal re-purposed over the next decade. The Juvy and other corrections operations can pick and choose locations (like closed schools or businesses) throughout the city that are vacant. Vision makes a good point that operations like the Juvy bring with them their own economic multipliers and very little downside.

The other view is that this is an improvement over existing use of the land. It is consistent with current use of the land. It is available, zoned and easily converted to a Juvy center. It can be built in a way that enhances the area and has no effect on current development directly east. It is also close to other county and municipal entities that supposedly would yield some efficiencies.

All good points and frankly going either way isn't a disaster. Lost in all the discussion though is this:

Which viewpoint provides the best option for the longtime success of the Juvenile center and has the corollary benefit of improving its surrounding area?



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2011, 08:13:49 am
Landarch, great first post.  Thank you for your contribution.  There is one feature in your photo I particularly enjoyed: BOK Center under construction.  At a casual glance, it looks like a prankster put the Roman Coliseum in downtown.

Also looking at the photo, I count somewhere around 18 square blocks of land for potential future development north of the tracks. That's a lot of land and that also makes the assumption that the dairy, bail bonding companies and various smaller warehouse and manufacturing businesses will have closed and/or moved elsewhere in the next 30 years or so.  There's also a good deal of vacant land to the north of the IDL, just ripe for all sorts of development.  We haven't even started talking about East End yet.  IOW- there's plenty of other land within the IDL which may or may not all get redeveloped in the next 20-30 years.  I'd like to think it would, but with economic cycles and suburban development, we may not have the population density and commerce to support a "full" IDL in that timeframe. 

Even with the best sense of development, not everyone will want to live, work, eat, or shop downtown no matter what sort of utopia of urban living we create.  Expansion will continue in the suburbs and other infill projects around the city will happen as well.  I don't really see this as wasted space considering it essentially borders two noisy transportation corridors.  Not exactly ideal for residential property.  I would suspect when the day comes the DL Moss and other buildings are ripe for a tear down and redevelopment, the entire "corrections district" would be platted out for redevelopment much like some of the concepts we saw a few years ago for the East End.

Again, great first post, I hope you are a regular contributor here.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 03, 2011, 08:30:43 am
If you look at Landarch's map follow all the pink development west on Archer.  It flows right into Crosby Heights.  However, a corrections & social services district is an abrupt disruption of that flow.

We've already heard that some of our posters are at least mildly uncomfortable riding their bikes through this area while on a exercise ride.  Can you imagine taking your family thru this area on a leisurely ride &/or walk.  Border to border of Crosby Heights to Brady District is about 1/2 mile then another 4-5 blocks to the Blue Dome.  That is closer than Gunboat Park is to the Blue Dome and half of what The Village at Central Park is to the Blue Dome.

This isn't just about what lies within the IDL, it also about what lies just outside.  The raised portion of the IDL aside, why can't we flow downtown into Brady Heights, Crosby Heights, and the Pearl like downtown flows into 18th & Boston & north Maple Ridge?

The potential for the redevelopment of the Crosby Heights neighborhood is great and putting a tourniquet on its access point (Archer) into downtown is a short term solution to a problem that will never go away.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2011, 09:15:41 am
The IDL itself ruined a smooth transition to points north and west of downtown long ago.  It's not the jail which contributes to the uncomfortable street scene down there, it's people the Salvation Army, John 3:16, and Day Center serve which do.  Pick another area where they could still properly serve their clients and their mission and that would solve it.  

I'm not really certain what sort of development people would envision as being a smooth transition to the residential areas.

Retail/entertainment?
Residential?
High rise office space?

The jail was a redevelopment opportunity which apparently wasn't going to be undertaken by private enterprise anytime soon when it was done.  Look at the immediate surrounding area on Google maps or drive through the area.  Sometimes institutional development can spur additional, good redevelopment in the area.  Just guessing, but that area would either still be full of ramshackle buildings or vacant TDA property had the jail not been built there.  There's such a mixed bag of other existing buildings down there, it would not be near as attractive as East End, Brady or Blue Dome for development.  No matter where they located it within the IDL, we could all say that was redevelopment failure but the reality is city and county correctional facilities need to be convenient to law enforcement and the courts.

It's more or less the same problem the Pearl is having getting off the ground to the east of Peoria.  There's still a lot of commercial and light industrial activity around there with no major investor to simply come in and buy up huge chunks of the area for redevelopment.  The major redevelopment factors thus far have been a city park and flood retention pond, social services (Family & Children's Services) retirement housing, and (I believe) an Indian Health Care facility.  Not exactly urban hipster type facilities, but it makes the area more attractive for that sort of development at some point.

Again, there's still plenty of un and under-developed land around downtown without worrying about this corner of it.  We are also making assumptions that land-owners of fairly well-worn warehouses and manufacturing operations will cede their properties anytime soon around the correctional and social services area.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
Post by: rdj on June 03, 2011, 09:40:13 am
What would this board's reaction be if a developer announced they were building a sales tax producing building like say, Wal*Mart, on this same land?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 03, 2011, 09:42:48 am
What would this board's reaction be if a developer announced they were building a sales tax producing building like say, Wal*Mart  on this same land?

Depends...multi-level parking, urban design...it'd bring more people DT and help with sales tax rev.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 03, 2011, 09:54:21 am
The IDL itself ruined a smooth transition to points north and west of downtown long ago.  It's not the jail which contributes to the uncomfortable street scene down there, it's people the Salvation Army, John 3:16, and Day Center serve which do.  Pick another area where they could still properly serve their clients and their mission and that would solve it.  

[This is quite true though the clients will follow where these social services go. Not vice versa. The downtown area was their  favorite haunt because thats where the business people and big churches are. Put the social services somewhere else and they will migrate.]

I'm not really certain what sort of development people would envision as being a smooth transition to the residential areas.

Retail/entertainment?
Residential?
High rise office space?

[Whatever is normally found in gentrifying, developing areas. When Morningside, Tracy Park and original Maple Ridge were starting their gentrification, Cherry Street was ragged. Imagine had they decided to scrape 15th and put in a corrections and social services corridor.]


Speaking of assumptions.

The jail was a redevelopment opportunity which apparently wasn't going to be undertaken by private enterprise anytime soon when it was done.  Look at the immediate surrounding area on Google maps or drive through the area.  Sometimes institutional development can spur additional, good redevelopment in the area.  Just guessing, but that area would either still be full of ramshackle buildings or vacant TDA property had the jail not been built there.  There's such a mixed bag of other existing buildings down there, it would not be near as attractive as East End, Brady or Blue Dome for development.  No matter where they located it within the IDL, we could all say that was redevelopment failure but the reality is city and county correctional facilities need to be convenient to law enforcement and the courts.

No one championed a new jail until it was proffered that it could be privatized. That was the key word of that period. Within a decade of the jail construction look what became available and what started to germinate. The entire plaza to the east of the courthouse is now empty. The Library almost was available. The Blue Dome building which I almost bought at a mere $35k turned attention to that area. That DLM area would have been a nice extension of Brady had the jail moved into the plaza area instead. Its ramshackle buildings were at least intact unlike Blue Dome which got scraped. And it was surrounded by operating consumer businesses (restaurants, donut shop, transmission repair, muffler repair, grocery store, gas stations and a small shopping center). There is demand for such things from Crosbie, Brady and Owen. I think its the mixed bag of properties that helped propel the Bricktown that had the same type area near its downtown.

Nonetheless that's all history. I drove through Crosbie recently looking at its potential. The old school is really cool. A few buildings like the fire station are cool too. The railroad and the IDL are formidable barriers. The Newblock area could be its OKC canal that ties it all together. That's a sleeper. Owen and Brady have better period homes. All three are connected physically but you have to work hard to find those streets. This won't help them thats for sure. May not hurt but not a plus.

I object to having a centralized corrections AND social compound. Its just not healthy to me. Dividing the two entities using newly vacant midtown and suburban properties makes more sense. The Juvy miscreants come from all over town, not downtown. Follow a business model. A downtown location is fine, but you must follow your population if you want to survive.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2011, 09:57:20 am
Depends...multi-level parking, urban design...it'd bring more people DT and help with sales tax rev.

Agreed.

Or office space, which is essentially what the Juvie facility will look like.

Quote
No one championed a new jail until it was proffered that it could be privatized

That's completely untrue.  It was already cramped and dated when my father was a district court judge in the early 1970's and only got worse as time went on.

Quote
Follow a business model. A downtown location is fine, but you must follow your population if you want to survive.

Uh, the people who will be using the juvie center have zero choice on a matter of convenience.  By that logic, the Tulsa County Courthouse should be somewhere mid-city as well.

We could just as easily be talking about how the adult detention center, current juvenile facility, and the police maintenance garage all scotched further development west of Brady Heights.  To look at this another way, this could just as easily turn into a development bonanza to the west of downtown with newly vacated property, assuming we could eventually move the police and fire facilities as well as the adult detention center.

You may not care if Wilson Jr. High is used for the juvenile facility, but how would you have felt if Lee Elementary had been closed and it was proposed to be put on that site?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: carltonplace on June 03, 2011, 10:58:43 am
The potential for the redevelopment of the Crosby Heights neighborhood is great and putting a tourniquet on its access point (Archer) into downtown is a short term solution to a problem that will never go away.

What's wrong with West 3rd/Charles Page Blvd as a gateway to Crosby?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: carltonplace on June 03, 2011, 11:04:33 am
Just have to say we haven't had this lively a development debate since the ball park was proposed.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 03, 2011, 11:14:39 am
Just have to say we haven't had this lively a development debate since the ball park was proposed.

I guess I'll consider myself the new instigator.   ;D


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
Post by: rdj on June 03, 2011, 11:25:54 am
What's wrong with West 3rd/Charles Page Blvd as a gateway to Crosby?

I don't see anything wrong with that being a gateway as well.  The issue is when you look at moving west out of downtown you only have two places to do so, Archer & Third St.  In contrast, to move east out of downtown you have five streets.  North and south both have ten or more to exit downtown.

Frankly, this is the exact reason I shied away from buying a home in Owen Park or Crosby Heights.  I felt the lack of access to/from downtown would limit the ability for downtown to bleed in to these areas.  My belief eighteen months ago that downtown will move north rather than west is further affirmed by this development and makes me glad I chose to purchase and renovate in Reservoir Hill.  The movement north will also be helped by a fixed route mass transit line that would run north/south on Boulder from Fairview to Veteran's Park/Riverside.

One thing that could/would help Crosbie Heights is if a light rail stop was placed on Nogales or Olympia.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 03, 2011, 11:58:03 am
 We're just not communicating.

That's completely untrue.  It was already cramped and dated when my father was a district court judge in the early 1970's and only got worse as time went on.

Who championed a new jail? Its true that it needed expansion but no one made it part of politics til other communities started privatizing their jails and we could use that as incentive to build a new jail. At least that's my memory of it.


Uh, the people who will be using the juvie center have zero choice on a matter of convenience.  By that logic, the Tulsa County Courthouse should be somewhere mid-city as well.

Maybe it should. There are many who feel just that way. With the center of the city now out towards 61st/71st it makes some sense to have satellite centers or move it all together. I am not one of them. I speak of the convenience of the social workers, lawyers, judges, and administrative staff who have to drive into downtown on choked expressways, compete for parking and lack of amenities because the city/county got a good deal on land near the jail. Just being near TU, its law school, its liberal arts program, (for interns) bus systems on 11th/15th/Lewis and Rte 66 momentum by locating at Wilson would be very valuable. Not to mention two gymnasiums, an auditorium, a library, a cafeteria and nearby amenities. One of those amenities being a newly opened hotel.

We could just as easily be talking about how the adult detention center, current juvenile facility, and the police maintenance garage all scotched further development west of Brady Heights.  To look at this another way, this could just as easily turn into a development bonanza to the west of downtown with newly vacated property, assuming we could eventually move the police and fire facilities as well as the adult detention center.

?

You may not care if Wilson Jr. High is used for the juvenile facility, but how would you have felt if Lee Elementary had been closed and it was proposed to be put on that site?

Just fine. Better than tearing it down so infill monkeys could put their walled in McMansions or townhouses there. And certainly better than having it sit empty as an enticement for vagrants, vandals and graffiti. Why would I be concerned about having a police presence, lawyers and professionals taking up residence nearby? The kids are far outnumbered by the staff. Probably no different a characterization than the population of Edison HS.  I prefer that to the dives at 18th & Boston actually.

Are you afraid to have such a facility near your midtown address? Hoover?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2011, 01:00:01 pm
We're just not communicating.

Are you afraid to have such a facility near your midtown address? Hoover?

No, not at all.  As previously mentioned, there's nothing to fear as a result of this popping up anywhere in the city.  Just making sure you weren't advocating something for another neighborhood you would not have in your own because it would be somewhat incongruous to Riverview and Maple Ridge as well as future development along SoBo.

However, consider what you just said about attorneys, counselors, judges, witnesses, LEO's and the like having to drive choked expressways into downtown.  Same issue anyone else has getting to downtown.  Denser infill and development in downtown will only exacerbate that problem, so why even persist in developing more of downtown?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2011, 01:02:29 pm
I guess I'll consider myself the new instigator.   ;D

I'm enjoying the spirited banter, thanks for the input and ideas.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Red Arrow on June 03, 2011, 01:54:43 pm
However, consider what you just said about attorneys, counselors, judges, witnesses, LEO's and the like having to drive choked expressways into downtown.  Same issue anyone else has getting to downtown.  Denser infill and development in downtown will only exacerbate that problem, so why even persist in developing more of downtown?

At some point we could cross the threshold and make light rail feasible.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 03, 2011, 02:18:34 pm
I'm enjoying the spirited banter, thanks for the input and ideas.

I'm told by some I like to argue, just to argue.   :o

If the thing gets approved you won't find me chained to the bulldozers or anything.  I've talked to others outside the forum that agree with my points and then others with far more input in the process than me who believe it is a good thing.  At then end of the day I'm going to trust our city planners and continue to work to make Tulsa better.

My question about the Wal*Mart stemmed from design and land use.  I was not an active member here when a Supercenter was proposed for East End.  I know many urban enthusiasts that flipped out.  I haven't had one person ask me about this, in fact many were unaware until I asked them.

Why are we more upset with the idea of the world's largest retailer plopping down in a location many believed could become a Utopian downtown development than a juvenile justice center being constructed on the fringe in a currently undesirable corner of downtown?  If we believe the juvenile justice complex site is the best and highest use for the location than we should apply the same design and construction standards that we would apply to Wal*Mart, Elliot Nelson, Blake Ewing, Tribune Lofts, etc, etc.  I purposefully didn't include newly constructed (or acquired) buildings such as BOK Center, ONEOK Field & City Hall at OTC in that list because I would hope that we would hold our governments to an even higher standards of design and construction than we hold the private entities.  If they are risking our tax dollars, not only those to build this center but the approx $400MM we've invested in the three aforementioned public facilities downtown that could be affected by this center, then we should demand more than "good enough for government work" on this facility.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2011, 02:24:37 pm
I'm told by some I like to argue, just to argue.   :o

If the thing gets approved you won't find me chained to the bulldozers or anything.  I've talked to others outside the forum that agree with my points and then others with far more input in the process than me who believe it is a good thing.  At then end of the day I'm going to trust our city planners and continue to work to make Tulsa better.

My question about the Wal*Mart stemmed from design and land use.  I was not an active member here when a Supercenter was proposed for East End.  I know many urban enthusiasts that flipped out.  I haven't had one person ask me about this, in fact many were unaware until I asked them.

Why are we more upset with the idea of the world's largest retailer plopping down in a location many believed could become a Utopian downtown development than a juvenile justice center being constructed on the fringe in a currently undesirable corner of downtown?  If we believe the juvenile justice complex site is the best and highest use for the location than we should apply the same design and construction standards that we would apply to Wal*Mart, Elliot Nelson, Blake Ewing, Tribune Lofts, etc, etc.  I purposefully didn't include newly constructed (or acquired) buildings such as BOK Center, ONEOK Field & City Hall at OTC in that list because I would hope that we would hold our governments to an even higher standards of design and construction than we hold the private entities.  If they are risking our tax dollars, not only those to build this center but the approx $400MM we've invested in the three aforementioned public facilities downtown that could be affected by this center, then we should demand more than "good enough for government work" on this facility.

I agree, design is important.  I believe the design of the building rather than what it houses will have far more impact on future development around the area. 

If nothing else, increased law enforcement presence in the area might help mitigate some of the loitering which now makes pedestrians uncomfortable.

You should come to lunch with us next week.  I'm sure Recyclemichael would be happy to oversee your initiation ritual ;)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on June 03, 2011, 03:49:43 pm
At some point we could cross the threshold and make light rail feasible.

Plan on having deep pockets for that. When the light rail was constructed here in the Phoenix area the 20 mile route was $1.4billion. We recieved 41%, $541million from the fed and the rest was paid for by Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Glendale, and from Prop 400.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/special1/articles/0916Prop400QampA.html (http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/special1/articles/0916Prop400QampA.html)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Red Arrow on June 03, 2011, 05:47:25 pm
Plan on having deep pockets for that. When the light rail was constructed here in the Phoenix area the 20 mile route was $1.4billion. We recieved 41%, $541million from the fed and the rest was paid for by Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Glendale, and from Prop 400.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/special1/articles/0916Prop400QampA.html (http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/special1/articles/0916Prop400QampA.html)


High up front costs.  Annualized cost adjusted for lifetimes of the equipment can be less expensive for light rail / trolleys than rubber tires.  It depends on the ridership quantities.  Road maintenance is usually neglected for rubber tired vehicles too but it is part of the real cost to the community.   See www.lightrailnow.org for many articles on the subject.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 03, 2011, 07:15:58 pm
High up front costs.  Annualized cost adjusted for lifetimes of the equipment can be less expensive for light rail / trolleys than rubber tires.  It depends on the ridership quantities.  Road maintenance is usually neglected for rubber tired vehicles too but it is part of the real cost to the community.   See www.lightrailnow.org for many articles on the subject.

One of the few things we agree on...rubber wheel trolleys...


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on June 03, 2011, 10:19:10 pm
One of the few things we agree on...rubber wheel trolleys...

Please, don't get me wrong, light rail has a place in a lot of cities, but it has to work with a comprehensive transit plan that includes light rail, park and ride sites that include bus, bike, and car to stations that are attached to the light rail, trolley, connections. You also have to make it attractive and affordable to users of mass transit. And the routes need to be to areas that will draw the most riders/passengers to a specifc destination. What works in the eastern cities is the fact that they have had long established lines that feed into a densely business enviroment. Light rail, cable cars, subway, bus, and trolley service works in San Francisco works because it has been an evolution. Chicago, Boston, Philidelphia, DC, and other major cities on the east coast have had these systems in place for the last hundred years.

A rail line from BA to downtown Tulsa should have been thought of 40 years ago. The sad thing here in Phoenix, is there was a proposal in the early 80's to include light and high speed rail that would run throughout the valley along the highways that feed into downtown, it would have been built into the highway system, and provided inbound and outbound service, and it was voted down, and now the metro area is playing catch up.

I know that in some aspects I'm preaching to the chior, but get over the past and make some sort of plan that is user friendly. Mass transit in a city needs to entice people to use it, and be convinient.

If I was to take a trip to San Fransisco, I would stay where I have before in Fremont, at the south end of the BART line, and I would spend about $20.00 for a BART Pass into and back, and then spend $10.00 for an all day pass for cable car, bus, trolley to get around, and gee, walk.

Excuse the rant, I get what all of you want, but it's not that easy to implement.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
Post by: rdj on June 03, 2011, 10:38:04 pm
What if Ray Siegfried had gotten his way and Tulsa had built a giant monorail system?  How cool would that be?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on June 03, 2011, 10:47:26 pm
What if Ray Siegfried had gotten his way and Tulsa had built a giant monorail system?  How cool would that be?

Tulsa might have had a transit system that works, and it might be functional, but trying to undo things from th 60's and 70's and even into the late 50's is hard to change.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: TheArtist on June 04, 2011, 05:55:56 am
Plan on having deep pockets for that. When the light rail was constructed here in the Phoenix area the 20 mile route was $1.4billion. We recieved 41%, $541million from the fed and the rest was paid for by Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Glendale, and from Prop 400.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/special1/articles/0916Prop400QampA.html (http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/special1/articles/0916Prop400QampA.html)


That high cost my friend is the main reason we should start the planning and zoning for it now!  It doesn't have to cost nearly as much as that if you get ahead of the curve.  It think it was estimated that the approx 14 miles from downtown Tulsa to BA would run us about 80 mill.   Thats a bargain compared to what we are spending to widen I44 near my house at 100mill a mile.  Imagine the cost of widening the BA again.

  But you begin figuring out where you want your TOD now, buy lots for park and ride now on the cheap, encourage pedestrian friendly development to begin now in the appropriate areas.... You go a long way to making things workable and affordable 20- 30 -40 years hence. But we are not doing that.

  When they had those meetings discussing light rail possibilities in Tulsa a year or so ago and had guest speakers from other states, one of those guest speakers was from Austin.  The main point they said was....

   "Tulsa is at the perfect stage of its development NOW to begin planning and implementing a light rail plan" (that doesn't mean putting in the rail now, but doing things like I mentioned above) "You can dramatically cut your costs long term, and avoid a lot of the mistakes we made"   

  The same principles work for within and around downtown as, from downtown Tulsa to downtown BA.  Start the process now and it will all work out MUCH better when your ready to actually start laying the tracks.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Red Arrow on June 04, 2011, 09:40:30 am
One of the few things we agree on...rubber wheel trolleys...

I still prefer to call a "rubber wheel trolley" a bus.  

A rubber tire bus powered by an electric motor using electricity from a pair of overhead wires can be called a "trolley bus" since the current collectors on the vehicle are where the term trolley came from.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Red Arrow on June 04, 2011, 10:03:23 am
Chicago, Boston, Philidelphia, DC, and other major cities on the east coast have had these systems in place for the last hundred years.

The trolley line that I grew up near is indeed about 100 yrs old.  When it was put in, there wasn't much between the western edge of Philadelphia (PA) and Media (the county seat of Delaware County).  Over the years it filled in significantly.  That line runs mostly on separate right of way and is still a trolley today.  It acts more like an Interurban than a street car except at both ends of the line. 


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 04, 2011, 11:05:05 am
I'm enjoying the spirited banter, thanks for the input and ideas.

It occurs to me that I am hopelessly idealistic. In my heart, I know that most Tulsan's are afraid. Afraid of their neighbors, their neighbor's kids, and even their own kids. They would rather not have any thing in their neighborhood that taps into that fear. So, yeah, unfortunately given those constraints I can understand why the county has gravitated towards dumping anything with the perception of danger into one melting pot downtown where there is little opposition.

It's not the best option for the city, the surrounding hoods, downtown entertainment district or the JV center itself but, that's life in the city.

Meanwhile it also occurs to me that the biggest player in the Midtown area (other than hospitals) probably has their sights on Wilson Middle school. I suspect TU already knows its strategic value and its market value. Easy way to add more campus.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: patric on June 04, 2011, 11:47:26 am

Meanwhile it also occurs to me that the biggest player in the Midtown area (other than hospitals) probably has their sights on Wilson Middle school. I suspect TU already knows its strategic value and its market value. Easy way to add more campus.

Would it be such a shock if it turned out it was already drawn into their next "5-year plan" of land acquisitions?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: LandArchPoke on June 04, 2011, 02:14:15 pm
Is there a thread on here that has discussion on light rail in Tulsa? I'm sure there would be a lot of great opinions of what Tulsa should do. I will have to draw up some maps to show what I think would be a great start for a system and how to build one.

But back to what the topic is of this thread. Conan I noticed you had said in response to my post and I will agree with you that there is a lot of land to be developed in the IDL (and or around the IDL, north of 244, the pearl, south of the BA) but right now the Brady District has the most development underway and this area would have much higher redevelopment potential in the downtown core than anywhere else once we had the chance to move the County Jail.

rdj you mentioned the connection to Crosby Height which is a good point, but the IDL still acts as a huge barrier and thereĺs not much we can do about that. With streetscape and make the underpasses more pedestrian friendly I think it could be easily solvable because I have been in several major cities that have done a better job at making walking under a highway a lot easier and safer.

It goes back to the DESIGN of everything; if they spend the extra money to get a really nice design for this center it will help the neighborhood.

My question would be what if this was placed somewhere around I-44 and the BA interchange? This is a more centralized location in the county and on the southside it is mostly industrial and some commercial usage. Just a thought.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Red Arrow on June 04, 2011, 05:53:36 pm
Is there a thread on here that has discussion on light rail in Tulsa?

There have been several.  Search using trolley, light rail, commuter rail and maybe some more.  I believe there have been some maps of a starter system and one (or a link) of the system Tulsa had before the trolley holocaust.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: carltonplace on June 06, 2011, 07:05:36 am
I'm told by some I like to argue, just to argue.   :o

My question about the Wal*Mart stemmed from design and land use.  I was not an active member here when a Supercenter was proposed for East End.  I know many urban enthusiasts that flipped out.  I haven't had one person ask me about this, in fact many were unaware until I asked them.

Why are we more upset with the idea of the world's largest retailer plopping down in a location many believed could become a Utopian downtown development than a juvenile justice center being constructed on the fringe in a currently undesirable corner of downtown?

The issue that most people took with the Wal*Mart proposal for the East End was two-fold:
1. The developer bought the parcel as soon as a different developer had put together a proposal for the area that included hotels, shopping and living units. The urban development was more desirable (yes it failed just as many East End proposals have) and the competing Wal*Mart proposal seemed like a land grab. Wal*Mart wasn't even on board.
2. The Wal*Mart design was suburban with large parking lots and set backs. We want retail in downtown (even large retail is fine) but it should be urban/space saving design with a building that can outlive the current use if that use fails.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 06, 2011, 09:05:14 am
The issue that most people took with the Wal*Mart proposal for the East End was two-fold:
1. The developer bought the parcel as soon as a different developer had put together a proposal for the area that included hotels, shopping and living units. The urban development was more desirable (yes it failed just as many East End proposals have) and the competing Wal*Mart proposal seemed like a land grab. Wal*Mart wasn't even on board.
2. The Wal*Mart design was suburban with large parking lots and set backs. We want retail in downtown (even large retail is fine) but it should be urban/space saving design with a building that can outlive the current use if that use fails.

In my private meetings with the developers Wal*Mart had some level of commitment.  Obviously it wasn't in stone, but Wal*Mart was very interested.  It is well documented that Wal*Mart has changed strategies since the '07 financial crisis.

Also, I felt the developers were working to modify their plan to include urban elements.  While there was not underground structured parking (ala Whole Foods in downtown Austin) it was going to have a much different layout than a suburban Wal*Mart.  Personally, I liked the idea of making Frankfort (or was it Greenwood?) a private street with a decorative element that bridged the gap from the planned development west of the Wal*Mart.

We laud Home Depot for being "downtown" but really it isn't any different than a typical HD other than being smaller.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 06, 2011, 09:07:10 am


You should come to lunch with us next week.  I'm sure Recyclemichael would be happy to oversee your initiation ritual ;)

Thanks for the invite.  I'm already booked for lunch that day.  Enjoy a three-way for me!


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 06, 2011, 09:11:00 am
Enjoy a three-way for me!
:o :o :o


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 06, 2011, 09:44:19 am
Bow-chicka


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
Post by: Truman on June 13, 2011, 06:06:51 pm
"The potential for the redevelopment of the Crosby Heights neighborhood is great and putting a tourniquet on its access point (Archer) into downtown is a short term solution to a problem that will never go away."  <rdj

A point being missed by the County.

"It goes back to the DESIGN of everything; if they spend the extra money to get a really nice design for this center it will help the neighborhood. " <LAP

Design is part of it. Use is a greater entity than design for that area.
A Police Station or other visible sign of stability and order would go a long way in
negating the impact of a prison, homeless shelter. and the uses being allowed, for Archer, at this time.

Nothing about another detention facility would act to curb the behavior that is rampant in that area.

One of my favorite contributions by a Tulsa World reader. It does pose a question that as of yet has not been answered. 4 to Fix?>


Letter to the Editor: Disappointed in vote

by: Doyle C. Pierce, Tulsa
Thursday, June 09, 2011


Open letter to Tulsa County commissioners:

Recently you voted to transfer $2 million from the Four to Fix funds into the county general fund, to be used to purchase a site for a 'future' juvenile center. I am disappointed in your vote for several reasons:

1. A juvenile center was not included in Four to Fix.

2. If we have excess funds in Four to Fix, why not lower the sales tax?

3. The (Storey Wrecker Services Inc. site at 10 N. Elwood Ave.) will be a disaster - it will cost untold millions to remediate the site because of decades of motor oil, gasoline, diesel fuel, brake fluid, transmission fluid, radiator coolant and any other fluid that can leak into the soil from wrecked vehicles. The only way to satisfy the EPA will be to dig out the contaminated soil (which could be several feet deep), haul it off, treat it and return it or replace it with non-contaminated soil.

4. In addition, the Storey property is presently on the property tax rolls, which will be lost revenue to the county and city if the county buys it. Same for any other private property.

5. What is wrong with the present property? Renovate it, even to the point of tearing down and rebuilding one structure at a time. Use the excess from Four to Fix and from Vision 2025 to renovate.

6. Where will the funding for a new center come from? Are we facing another sales tax or another bond issue?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 16, 2011, 09:48:09 am
I'm not sure how I missed this but while reviewing ODOT's page about the I-244 bridge I discovered a study completed by Jack Crowley for this site.  The PDF is here -->  http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/recovery/tiger/tulsa_i244/pdfs/storey.pdf

His final concept is certainly very palatable assuming the light rail were to happen and be positioned as he has placed it.  A Frisco bridge over the tracks would be a great benefit to downtown.

My question is, will the construction of a juvenile center on this site derail his vision? 


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Conan71 on June 16, 2011, 10:03:32 am
Another surface lot???   :o



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: TheTed on June 16, 2011, 10:19:33 am
I question the need for a bridge at Frisco. You'd have to remove the north and west legs of the IDL before a Frisco railroad overpass should even be considered.

Where does this overpass take you? The loading dock of the BOK Center? Frisco is dead ends in nearly every direction. An overpass isn't going to change the fact that it's an undesirable, disconnected corner of downtown. Which is why a juvie center is OK.

How many decades of downtown revitalization would have to happen before developers would even think about putting something in there?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 16, 2011, 10:34:39 am
Another surface lot???   :o



That's why I said final plan.   ;)

Here is page nine of the PDF I linked above. 

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KKj-x46F00A/TfovxkbCLyI/AAAAAAAABL0/viCbZ88_r0o/s640/Storey%252520Wrecker%252520-%252520Crowley%252520Concept.JPG)

The Frisco bridge becomes the access to the light rail station from the BOk Center & the Convention Center.  It would also provide more access to the Crosbie Heights & Owen Park neighborhoods from the IDL because you could exit at Second Street from westboud I-244 or enter the IDL from First Street by crossing at Frisco rather than going over to Denver and cutting back.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: runfromtulsa on June 16, 2011, 01:56:50 pm
A nice juvenile detention facility will really help all of us here in Owen Park, as well as the new businesses in the Brady District.  There is nothing like having criminals around to make a destination like the Brady District attractive and exciting.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 16, 2011, 02:00:07 pm
A nice juvenile detention facility will really help all of us here in Owen Park, as well as the new businesses in the Brady District.  There is nothing like having criminals around to make a destination like the Brady District attractive and exciting.

Sounds like a good reason for you to run.from.Tulsa.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: BaltimorePoke on June 16, 2011, 05:37:28 pm
That's why I said final plan.   ;)

Here is page nine of the PDF I linked above. 

The Frisco bridge becomes the access to the light rail station from the BOk Center & the Convention Center.  It would also provide more access to the Crosbie Heights & Owen Park neighborhoods from the IDL because you could exit at Second Street from westboud I-244 or enter the IDL from First Street by crossing at Frisco rather than going over to Denver and cutting back.


I like the concept alot.  The bridge drops pedestrians right into the South(west) entrance. 


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: we vs us on June 16, 2011, 06:13:23 pm
A nice juvenile detention facility will really help all of us here in Owen Park, as well as the new businesses in the Brady District.  There is nothing like having criminals around to make a destination like the Brady District attractive and exciting.

What I like about you is that you'll actually read a thread before spamming it.  Also, you're not typing in Russian. 


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: ZYX on July 12, 2011, 03:17:40 pm
http://www.newson6.com/story/15067125/tulsa-countys-new-juvenile-justice-center-will-be-located-downtown

It will go downtown.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on July 12, 2011, 03:29:57 pm
http://www.newson6.com/story/15067125/tulsa-countys-new-juvenile-justice-center-will-be-located-downtown

It will go downtown.

Quote
Perry said there is not timetable for building a new juvenile courthouse and Tulsa County has not proposed a plan to pay the estimated $30-million plus cost.


So all this means is Story got $2.5 million.  Out of curiosity, why not just've domained his butt?

Tulsa:  "We likey, we takey."


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: dbacks fan on July 12, 2011, 03:37:15 pm
How much you want to bet after they pay Storey, they rent the land back to him for $1.00/year until he finds a new location, and they still pay him for TCSO impounds?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on July 13, 2011, 07:42:14 am
The contract requires that the seller to fully remediate all environmental issues at no cost to the buyer before closing, including those which predate them and to fully VACATE within a fixed period of time after closing.  Once vacated the County intends to demolish the buildings and clear the site to prevent other issues.  There have been NO discussions whatsoever in any meetings I have been in about a lease back arrangement, the Story family stated early on they had identified a new location and we're anxious to relocate.  Sorry no conspiracy here.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on July 13, 2011, 08:14:00 am
So all this means is Story got $2.5 million.  Out of curiosity, why not just've domained his butt?

Tulsa:  "We likey, we takey."
Many think it does but it simply does not work that way and if it did any and all remediation costs would be on the County as the taker gets it as is with no guarantee of a clean site certificate from the State Health Department.   


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 13, 2011, 10:34:12 am
Sorry no conspiracy here.

Oh, we are just getting started.

I heard that Sarah Palin was behind all of this. Jimmy Hoffa's brother is buried underneath the ground there. The county is going to build using prison labor just so they can smuggle weapons over the border to Mexico. The entire structure is planned to open on the day of Rapture. The intials JJ for Juvenile Justice is really code for Johnson and Johnson, who plan to have kids make cheap bandages to sell at WalMart.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Red Arrow on July 13, 2011, 10:52:56 am
Oh, we are just getting started.

I heard that Sarah Palin was behind all of this. Jimmy Hoffa's brother is buried underneath the ground there. The county is going to build using prison labor just so they can smuggle weapons over the border to Mexico. The entire structure is planned to open on the day of Rapture. The intials JJ for Juvenile Justice is really code for Johnson and Johnson, who plan to have kids make cheap bandages to sell at WalMart.

You forgot George W. Bush.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: carltonplace on July 13, 2011, 11:25:04 am
You forgot George W. Bush.

Michael Moore will get to him when the movie comes out.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on July 13, 2011, 01:01:15 pm
Oh, we are just getting started.

I heard that Sarah Palin was behind all of this. Jimmy Hoffa's brother is buried underneath the ground there. The county is going to build using prison labor just so they can smuggle weapons over the border to Mexico. The entire structure is planned to open on the day of Rapture. The intials JJ for Juvenile Justice is really code for Johnson and Johnson, who plan to have kids make cheap bandages to sell at WalMart.

I knew it.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center
Post by: Truman on July 13, 2011, 03:30:18 pm
The contract requires that the seller to fully remediate all environmental issues at no cost to the buyer before closing, including those which predate them and to fully VACATE within a fixed period of time after closing.  Once vacated the County intends to demolish the buildings and clear the site to prevent other issues.  There have been NO discussions whatsoever in any meetings I have been in about a lease back arrangement, the Story family stated early on they had identified a new location and we're anxious to relocate.  Sorry no conspiracy here.


This promise is offered with an ongoing "Brownfield" assessment,
I would suspect there are monetary limits to which Storey is required to go.



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: SXSW on April 01, 2014, 07:07:31 pm
It looks like this will be get built.  Both county propositions for the new Justice Center at Archer & Elwood and the jail expansion are passing by wide margins.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 13, 2016, 12:10:16 pm
Juvenile Justice Center will be near Downtown

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/juvenile-justice-center-will-be-near-downtown (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/juvenile-justice-center-will-be-near-downtown)

Quote
Tulsaĺs new Juvenile Justice Center will be just north of downtown Tulsa. County leaders met today to discuss the site for the center.

After a lengthy debate and an executive session, they selected a location near the DayCenter for the Homeless, Salvation Army and the Tulsa Jail. It will be at the Storey Wrecker impound lot.

The County will pay $5.6 million for the seven acres of land. Construction will begin next year. It should be finished in 2019.

There had been speculation that the board would locate site at 36th Street North and Martin Luther King. Residents had opposed that site.



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 13, 2016, 12:24:43 pm
That area could have been really neat. Just an out of the area location, cut off. Those areas either become really cool, or basically a dead area.

While I don't think a juvenile justice center is really a huge detriment to an area, certainly adding it to the Day Center for the Homeless, the Salvation Army,  a jail, a slew of bail bonds places, and John 3:16 mission just down the road pretty well marks the area as a development write off. 

The Story Wrecker site is huge. Is this building that big? Would be nice if they added green space or something to contribute to the area.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 13, 2016, 12:31:56 pm
That area could have been really neat. Just an out of the area location, cut off. Those areas either become really cool, or basically a dead area.

While I don't think a juvenile justice center is really a huge detriment to an area, certainly adding it to the Day Center for the Homeless, the Salvation Army,  a jail, a slew of bail bonds places, and John 3:16 mission just down the road pretty well marks the area as a development write off. 

The Story Wrecker site is huge. Is this building that big? Would be nice if they added green space or something to contribute to the area.

Is this the area someone mentioned on here as a brown site?


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: RecycleMichael on June 13, 2016, 12:37:11 pm
yes.

read earlier comments


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: PonderInc on June 13, 2016, 01:54:38 pm
What's the location?  When the Tulsa World say's "north of downtown," I think Brady Heights.  I think they think north of the RR tracks. 

Can someone explain what corner /street we're talking about?  Is this that lot between Guthrie and Elwood, just north of the tracks?

I'm more concerned with what they build and the way it impacts the street than I'm worried about the building's use.  So if they build another dead, blank wall and line it with barbed wire, yes, I have a problem.  If they build something with a decent urban street front that has some dignity, it will be fine.

I have always been fascinated by the little intact block of Guthrie just north of the tracks.  If this were located anywhere else downtown, it would be a thriving entertainment district.  As it is, cut off by the highway, RR tracks, super-blocks, one-way streets, the BOK Center...it's like a little eddy in a river where stuff collects, but nothing flows through.

(http://www.accidentalurbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/North-Guthrie-downtown-Tulsa-e1465847620528.jpg)

If they plan to build something nice across the street from these buildings, there is potential for those buildings to maybe create some synergies with the juvenile center.  Maybe some non-profits, offices, or other support professionals would locate there.  (And I DON'T mean bail bondsmen!)  Maybe tutors, therapists, something...  Who knows...  I'm probably being overly optimistic, but I'm tired of everyone always assuming the worst.  So I'm pitching a better case scenario.  Fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Townsend on June 13, 2016, 02:21:47 pm
yes.

read earlier comments

Okay.  Maybe I will.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 13, 2016, 04:52:50 pm
What's the location?  When the Tulsa World say's "north of downtown," I think Brady Heights.  I think they think north of the RR tracks. 

Can someone explain what corner /street we're talking about?  Is this that lot between Guthrie and Elwood, just north of the tracks?

Directly across the street to the south of the Day Center for the Homeless and the Salvation Army on Archer. Looking at Google Maps, it is marked "Story Wrecker," on the Satellite view you will see a ton of cars mixed in with old tin industrial buildings. It will demolish all existing structures between Archer and the tracks, and between Elwood and Guthrie.

I'm with you on that stretch of Guthrie being potentially cool. Clearly Story Wrecker wasn't helping the area, but this likely seals off new development unless related services go in. Hopefully  it can help and I'm being ignorant of a greater impact. Then again - as I mentioned above, this area is handicapped for development anyway due to the other items that area already there. And this new Center is badly needed.

While they do not have renderings available (that I have found online) they released a basic site plan.
(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/10767283_G.jpg)

This is the original rendering from Selser Schaefer when the tax was proposed, but it appears to have a complete redesign specifically for this site. And the firm no longer lists the project on its website (http://www.selserschaefer.com/).

(http://tulsanow.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/c25fffa49bb28e2ec9b188dc69ad7749_f175-750x450.jpg)


The building has to go somewhere. While it would be awesome if this little niche of downtown developed quirky and cool - it has things working against it. Seems like as good of a place as any I suppose. To try and think positive, maybe the increased traffic and police presence will enable those little store fronts to do something synergistic to the Center.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: rdj on June 14, 2016, 10:51:34 am
I actually like this site.  Because of the issues stated it was going to be a tough spot to develop.  The railroad track creates a natural barrier for development anyway.  The biggest issue IMO is that is makes the entrance into Crosby Heights/Owen Park a bit tougher to transform into any kind of a pedestrian friendly area.  That was going to be difficult anyway because of the other social services along Archer.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: PonderInc on June 14, 2016, 01:40:20 pm
Um.... how many kids will drive to the detention center?  Or do they want to sell parking for BOK events?  

A couple problems: 1) ridiculous amount of parking... can someone tell them that there are no parking requirements downtown and that kids in detention centers probably get "dropped off?" 2) wish that they could line the parking lots on Archer and Guthrie with actual buildings. 3) appears to demolish several cool old buildings that could be neat if they were fixed up and incorporated into the design.

Obviously, some architecture firms specialize in schools/prisons, so they probably don't also specialize in adaptive reuse. (But maybe I'm wrong. It's hard to tell from the drawings, how much of that might re-use some of the existing brick buildings. Who knows.)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: cynical on June 14, 2016, 09:41:28 pm
This project involves much more than juvenile detention. Tulsa County is authorized under state law to operate a juvenile bureau, which is a kind of one-stop shopping mall for all things juvenile. So the center would house intake workers and treatment workers for both "delinquent" and "deprived" cases, along with courtrooms, judges' chambers, a court clerk satellite office, and offices for the assistant district attorneys and public defenders who work in that court system. Some juvenile cases are complicated and involve many witnesses, lawyers for the state, the children, and the parents (often one for each parent), and jurors. The current center has several courtrooms. Juvenile dockets in each courtroom can involve many cases simultaneously, so you multiply the participants by the number of cases and by the number of courtrooms, though the same lawyers are often involved in multiple cases if they work regularly. The current Juvenile Bureau facility on Charles Page Blvd and 25th W. Ave. was seriously inadequate for the number of cases it handled, and parking was an absolute nightmare. This looks about right to me.

Um.... how many kids will drive to the detention center?  Or do they want to sell parking for BOK events?  

A couple problems: 1) ridiculous amount of parking... can someone tell them that there are no parking requirements downtown and that kids in detention centers probably get "dropped off?" 2) wish that they could line the parking lots on Archer and Guthrie with actual buildings. 3) appears to demolish several cool old buildings that could be neat if they were fixed up and incorporated into the design.

Obviously, some architecture firms specialize in schools/prisons, so they probably don't also specialize in adaptive reuse. (But maybe I'm wrong. It's hard to tell from the drawings, how much of that might re-use some of the existing brick buildings. Who knows.)


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 15, 2016, 08:44:53 am
Having been to the old juvenile facility, I can attest that it was grossly inadequate. Social services and juvenile together had may 150 parking places. BUT - the new facility looks to have in excess of 500 parking spaces. If you can get by with 150 with some headache, it seems reasonable to question if 500 is overkill.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: swake on June 15, 2016, 08:54:56 am
You all missed this part of the article in the World:
Quote
County officials said they considered the site two years ago at a cheaper price but were told it would require significant environmental remediation. Officials said further investigation showed any environmental issues with the site can be covered up by the foundation of the structure and a parking lot.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-county-commission-votes-to-buy-downtown-site-for-new/article_dbd8d5e3-768a-588f-9419-068fe7c4afca.html

It's all a parking lot so they don't have to do remidiation on the land.

The better question is how on earth is this dirty lot needing millions in remediation worth five million dollars?



Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: DowntownDan on June 15, 2016, 10:58:38 am
I guess that corner of the IDL has been officially designated as a throwaway for development, so I guess the parking doesn't really matter.  It was gonna be a tough sell anyway for retail/service/housing to go in across from a jail and next to the Day Center.  What I don't like is that it kind of sends the wrong message to these kids who need help more than anything.  Kind of gives the impression that it's a one stop shop for wayward youth--next stop jail or the homeless shelter--instead of a place to help them get their lives on track.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: patric on June 15, 2016, 11:37:25 am
Um.... how many kids will drive to the detention center?  Or do they want to sell parking for BOK events? 

A couple problems: 1) ridiculous amount of parking... can someone tell them that there are no parking requirements downtown and that kids in detention centers probably get "dropped off?" 2) wish that they could line the parking lots on Archer and Guthrie with actual buildings. 3) appears to demolish several cool old buildings that could be neat if they were fixed up and incorporated into the design.

Obviously, some architecture firms specialize in schools/prisons, so they probably don't also specialize in adaptive reuse. (But maybe I'm wrong. It's hard to tell from the drawings, how much of that might re-use some of the existing brick buildings. Who knows.)

Ironic that it is across from the historic Hanging Tree.

The rendering doesnt show lighting.  Prisons tend to be lit like, um, prisons, designed by people whose only understanding of lighting is "all we can get."

Oh, you need to SEE?  Try eliminating glare. That means something better than floodlights, unshielded wallpacks, etc.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: AquaMan on June 15, 2016, 11:45:54 am
I guess that corner of the IDL has been officially designated as a throwaway for development, so I guess the parking doesn't really matter.  It was gonna be a tough sell anyway for retail/service/housing to go in across from a jail and next to the Day Center.  What I don't like is that it kind of sends the wrong message to these kids who need help more than anything.  Kind of gives the impression that it's a one stop shop for wayward youth--next stop jail or the homeless shelter--instead of a place to help them get their lives on track.

I transported kids to the TPS alternative school at Roosevelt in Owen Park and passed through this area daily last spring. Real troubled kids whose future I harbor great concern. I used to stop at the corner next to the Storey wrecker building and point out the new construction around Moss Correctional and wryly remark that it should be ready for them in a few years. That is my concern. It appears we are visually and in fact, setting up an alternative path for these kids. Conveniently located near each other will be a juvenile center, a day center and a correctional facility. Three steps in their evolution to prison. Every day the mental cases, substance abusers and those who prey on them are driving through or sitting on the curbs waiting. Waiting to sober up, or get help or just hang out in the shade. Some are getting needed help too. I know the Salvation Army does good service. But, the kids can see a progression. They can see their friends and family too. Its very disturbing to me. Maybe its a version of "scared straight".

However, I have experience both serving on a jury in the old juvenile justice center and with my child who earned some time there. They need a better facility and proximity to the courthouse. Too bad we couldn't just move the whole system, including the city jail and courthouse, out to the edges of the city and open this land up.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: TulsaRufnex on June 15, 2016, 12:19:54 pm
I actually like this site.  Because of the issues stated it was going to be a tough spot to develop.  The railroad track creates a natural barrier for development anyway.  The biggest issue IMO is that is makes the entrance into Crosby Heights/Owen Park a bit tougher to transform into any kind of a pedestrian friendly area.  That was going to be difficult anyway because of the other social services along Archer.

I agree.
It doesn't really make those few blocks on Archer any worse than they already are.
I'm just happy nobody took that talk radio jerk's advice to put it at Roosevelt School/Owen Park -- TSAS is moving there for the fall.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 15, 2016, 12:39:06 pm
You all missed this part of the article in the World:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/tulsa-county-commission-votes-to-buy-downtown-site-for-new/article_dbd8d5e3-768a-588f-9419-068fe7c4afca.html

It's all a parking lot so they don't have to do remidiation on the land.

The better question is how on earth is this dirty lot needing millions in remediation worth five million dollars?


I'm not part of the transaction but others I have been pretty much work like this:

If I decide to move my business, it's my cost.

or

If you want me to move my business, it's your cost and so is the place I'll be moving it to.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Vision 2025 on June 15, 2016, 12:42:57 pm
Having been to the old juvenile facility, I can attest that it was grossly inadequate. Social services and juvenile together had may 150 parking places. BUT - the new facility looks to have in excess of 500 parking spaces. If you can get by with 150 with some headache, it seems reasonable to question if 500 is overkill.
My take is that's a 'will it fit rendering' not a design and yes early studies for this site included multipurpose parking but that was in another configuration that would have worked well and included a pedestrian bridge over the tracks.

The facility will likely require significant parking in multiple locations so that the staff and Judicial parking is secured.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: RecycleMichael on June 15, 2016, 01:31:13 pm
My father was a Tulsa Police officer for 20 year most of which were in the juvenile department. He committed his career to helping straighten out kids.

A well-designed and run Juvenile Justice Facility can change so many lives for the better.

Good for Tulsa County and kudos to Karen Keith.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: SXSW on August 06, 2017, 02:30:57 pm
They just tore down all of the old warehouses on this site.  It looks really bare now, hopefully that means construction is starting soon?  Not a huge fan of this project but the renderings look decent.  Selser Schaefer is the architect and they do good work.


Title: Re: Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justiceácenter
Post by: Markk on August 09, 2017, 05:51:41 am
I agree.
It doesn't really make those few blocks on Archer any worse than they already are.
I'm just happy nobody took that talk radio jerk's advice to put it at Roosevelt School/Owen Park -- TSAS is moving there for the fall.

Are you referring to Eddie Huff, or Pat Campbell?  Campbell is at least somewhat entertaining.  Huff is damn near impossible to listen to.  Clearly articulating a single thought is a real challenge for him.  His fascination with Sambo and Quimbo baffles me.