The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

No offense, but I saw this at Maple Park the other day (albeit part of the vandalism  :-[ ) But where can I buy the t-shirt in a ladies size medium???

From some one who used to hang out at Cue City on 15th, and the first bar that I hung out in was KL Snoozers, I agree.

I want the folks at Boomtown to make a "don't Jenks my midtown (or downtown)" t-shirt. 

Wish there were a "like" button here.  +1 to every one of you.

ah, but where does midtown end and South Tulsa begin?

My $.02, 41st & Yale.

And where does midtown begin?

I have been forced to go to downtown a few times in the past month on legal business. Every time I go, I am reminded on why I do not go there. Crappy roads, vacant/deteriorating buildings, beggars...

I seem to remember plenty of crappy roads when I lived out south (and vacant buildings, for that matter, although mostly reused now..and beggars on the highway offramps). I also remember much worse congestion. Maybe there have been some improvements in the last two years?

So if death in mid town is preferable to being plunked down in South Tulsa, does that mean the people there are the living dead?  It would go far toward explaining the zombie-like attitudes of some who post here.  Not that I'm suggesting that Guido is a zombie...but then again....

(snicker)

Hey now, I live out south

lol

If the mid-towners would prefer death, that would make the mid-towners the zombies.
 ;D

Only if the mid-towners deaths turned them into zombies.  Otherwise, they'd just be dead.

 :o

Actually, I'm more in fear of them suburban zombies.  I mean, think about it.  We have a distinct lack of hipsters out here in sprawlville.  (Superman came from Sprawlville, didn't he?)  If I were to ask one of our coiffed and proper suburban matrons about "Naked Lunch" I could probably expect a visit from the local constabulary again.  So, yes, we have our own sort of zombies too, but they're probably closer to Stepford wives.

Sprawlville was densely populated compared to where Superman lived. (Before going to the big city.)

If that is their choice, OK.


I actually live in north Bixby, not south Tulsa.  I think Guido lives across the line in Bixby too.

Damn immigrants...

Hey, we're friendly down here.  We are glad to have you come spend your money.
 :D

Yes.

*Yawn*

Could always be worse, whichever area you are in...you could be stuck out there in Union district!

Oh no! Not the briar patch.

I've lived in both.  When I was young, single and early in my marriage I lived in midtown and loved it.  Wonderful place for young people to be close to everything, and feel like they are part of a light urban fabric.

Once we decided to have kids we moved to South Tulsa.
 
These were the reasons:
We wanted more property for us and the kids to play on and explore.
We liked the reputation, performance, and classroom assets of the Jenks school programs.
We wanted a neighborhood filled with kids where riding bikes and walking to each others homes was perceived as less dangerous.
We wanted less traffic.

What we got:
All of the above.
A modern home.
A greenbelt with tons of trees, a stream and wildlife behind the house.
Very quiet nights with no traffic noise.
Darker sky.
Neighbors who all have kids around the same age as ours that ride the bus together.
Plenty of parking.
Very aware neighborhood where everyone knows everyone and their kids.
. . .and it cost us about 75% of what we would have paid in midtown for comparable space.

What we miss:
The quality of people-watching.
Proximity to eclectic shops and eating, but this is getting better.

We weren't sure we were going to be happy in South Tulsa, so we held on to our midtown property and rented it out.  After about two years we liquidated the condo's with no regrets.

The quality of life we sought simply changed and South Tulsa offered what we needed.  If I was single again or married without children, I would probably move back to midtown or even some areas downtown. 

My family made the move to far south east Tulsa in the early 60s.  When we told our old neighbors in Tracy Park that we were moving to Lortondale you would have thought we had said we had won the lottery.  And I did love Lortondale and it came to form much of my world view but I also discovered empty lawns and no front porches, or if there was a front porch no one ever sat on it.  We saw our neighbors through car windows stopped at intersections.  We discovered that new construction and shiny clean surfaces do nothing to help the human dilemma.   Indeed, the shininess of all that new and improved stuff heightens the contrast between the promise and the reality of life.  It solves no problems but exacerbates them because you were promised that new home down south would save your soul.

You're David Bowie aren't you? ;D

No, but we are both Capricorns.  So is Tulsa by the way.  Tulsa has a Capricorn Sun and a Cancer Moon.

Tulsa has cancer?

No, though I've heard of Cancer clusters near the refineries but haven't confirmed it.  Maybe that's a good reason to move to South Tulsa.

Never found a reason good enough to do that...

what about all of the recent shootings in midtown?

I was thinking Camus.

Don't live in Midtown.  What about the rash of robberies that happens out south?

And technically, that started in Prue..it just ended up in midtown because of where the victim lived.  It could very well have led to Bixby, Alsuma, Turley, Sperry, Skiatook..you get the meaning.

Don't let the terrorists win.

It used to be that crime followed money. When Jesse James was asked why he robbed banks he said, "Cause that's where the money is". Now according to the TPD crime follows guns! The guns lead to money.

Actually, Willie Sutton but there are several references that say Willie didn't really say it either.

Google "where the money is"

From now on its attributed to "the (great) Steveoni".

There was also a double shooting in midtown today.  It's getting bad everywhere

It's yours.

And I see there was a shooting at Tulsa Hills Shopping Center. The story from Channel 8 sounds like it was a lovers quarrel involving a restraining order.

http://www.ktul.com/story/14829449/shooting-reported-at-south-tulsa-fast-food-restaurant?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook (http://www.ktul.com/story/14829449/shooting-reported-at-south-tulsa-fast-food-restaurant?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook)

And it sounds like a similar situation in Yuma.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/06/02/20110602yuma-shooting-killed.html (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/06/02/20110602yuma-shooting-killed.html)

Doesn't matter where you go.

I'd rather thrive in my Downtown Owen Park neighborhood, than live in South Tulsa or die in Midtown.

I would rather live in South Tulsa (North Bixby really) than die in Midtown, Downtown, Downtown Owen Park.....

Well, you get the idea.  I'm not ready to die yet.

Dude, Yuma is creepy. I'd rather not find myself working there again. It does have one thing going for it. It's not Quartzsite.

100% agreed and how we made the decision with two small kids to move south . . . we aren't deep south, just 85th & Harvard, but we love it, but still plan to go back to mid-town or even downtown if that's still feasible after the kids move out . .

More or less what I did and I'm enjoying the lower property tax rate.

Jenks was a great education for both my girls.

Jenks SE.  That's where we moved.

and yet no one ever posts on JenksNow.

Further proof that Tulsa is the center.

Still live in Tulsa.  Juuuuuust barely.

Ditto.  Good move.

The tone of this board is great, especially coming from Downtown KC.  People who lived in DT KC or Midtown KC regarded the suburbs, or even parts of KC South of the plaza (especially in Kansas) as the worst part of the world.  Throw in the whole KC Missouri vs. KC Kansas thing and it really got ugly, especially in regards to the competition to lure companies out of one state and into the other. 

Major factors were the previously mentioned competition over companies, income disparity between Missouri and Kansas, the fact that many of the wealthiest living in Johnson County Kansas worked in downtown Kansas City (located in Missouri).

Regardless of Tulsa's issues, be happy that we do not live on a state line and rely on the cooperation of 2 city and 2 state governments to get anything accomplished, all while stabbing at each other.

FYI, I live in South Tulsa, was raised here, children will go to Jenks SE, and spend most of my weekends at the golf course or downtown/midtown.

Welcome aboard!

I can no longer claim to be a Southy, I have migrated back East, and looks like I'll be here for a while

I love midtown, but the hate for South Tulsa is annoying. The mid-south areas from 61st to 91st between Lewis and Sheridan is a great area of Tulsa.

And we all know what opinions are like...I hate south Tulsa.  Annoying enough for ya?

I know the city is segmented into at least 5 areas, but I've never been comfortable saying just exactly what and where South Tulsa is. Maybe its a state of mind. ;)

FWIW, I live close to downtown. Some people call it midtown, some downtown, some Maple Ridge, some call it just the old part of town. None of them actually fit.

To me there is: Downtown (IDL), North (north of the 244), Midtown (South of 244, north of 44, West of Sheridan), East (East of Sheridan, North of the BA), South (Everything south of the BA and/or 44), West (west of the Arkansas).

Now there is the Southwest Tulsa area, but that'll pretty much get lumped into South.

Maple Ridge is pretty well defined, isn't it?  I see signs at the border when I stop to pay the toll at the entry booth....

Southwest is Tulsa Hills.     Or Jenks.

(http://katie73.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/dont-feed-the-troll.jpg)

Sort of a minor quibble, but people listing their suburb names when talking to others from around the country really annoys me.

If you're in Florida and a guy asks where you're from, why would you say Jenks, Bixby, Broken Arrow, etc? Just say Tulsa or the Tulsa area.

Nobody knows every suburb of every city. You may not technically live in Tulsa, but you live in the Tulsa metro area. That is by far the most identifiable name to people from several states away.

With American geographical knowledge the way it is you might as well tell them you live in the state North of Texas.  "Yes, North of the one where JR lived."

Texas is really Baja Oklahoma.

I usually say I live in a suburb of Tulsa, which is usually followed by the question "Where's Tulsa".

Before life in Bixby, I lived near Norfolk, VA (VA Beach is actually somewhat recognized by many) and near Philadelphia, PA.

If they don't know, they haven't been paying attention and are not worth the trouble to communicate with.  Move on.


Norfolk is where they build ships, isn't it?

So you are in favor of keeping Tulsa a secret to those who don't already know about it?


I think most of the shipyard are in Newport News, across the James River but I'm not sure.  I was at NAS Oceana and rarely went to Norfolk except to the Navy Flying Club based are Norfolk Regional Airport (Now Int'l, I think.  It's been a few years.)

When I tell people I live in Tulsa, mostly they say "'why".   

I remember telling someone I was from Tulsa and they said "Oh, thats in Arizona isn't it?".   I can be tricky trying to convice people that we actually have paved streets and electricity, that we don't have tumbleweeds blowing down dusty streets and piling up against barbed wire fences, and don't have cowboys and indians riding on horseback everywhere.  :o

That would be Tombstone.  ;) Or any abandoned subdivision.

Artist, that pretty well describes Oakhurst over west of town.

Family member in MO has a friend who happened to be traveling through OK Saturday night - stayed in Tulsa.  Texted about earthquake - said, "just another reason to hate Oklahoma...".

We got an image problem for sure.

No just some traveler with myopia.

Probably a Missouri Tigers fan.

 ;D

If it were just one or two or even just a few thousand, yeah, I would say just some myopia.  When so many are sending the same basic message and you ain't receiving - well, that's a problem.  We got an image problem.

Wait, when did a friend of a friend turn into a few thousand?  Did I miss something or are you really just looking for reasons to pi$$ me off today?

I always look for ways to pi$$ people off!!  Did it work??  (Please say yes!)

A few thousand is probably a slight exaggeration, but with all the years of travel I have done, I have talked to a considerable number of people - probably well into the thousands.  Most are polite enough not to knock where a person comes from (but a lot of times, you can tell what they are thinking), many were from Oklahoma, and there is always that 'chosen few' who are brutally open and honest about their feelings/thoughts.  The ones who have actually hated Oklahoma number somewhere in the mid-hundreds (probably between 350 and 650), which as a polling sample is pretty significant.   

There are many more who were friendly enough, but puzzled by why we are the way we are.  One small example; at one time before liquor by the drink, when we didn't allow people to have a glass of wine or cocktail with dinner in a nice restaurant, we were in the top 2 or 3 in consumption of hard liquor.  It's that kind of hypocrisy we are talking about.

Turnpikes are a big one with many vacationers and pretty much EVERY truck driver and trucking company.

Oral Roberts was a big topic before the even more radical religious practitioners of the last few years.  (Buckle of the Bible belt and all that.)

We've got a "hicks-from-the-sticks" reality outside of this state in virtually every corner of the nation.  We have out-Arkansas'ed Arkansas!  Remember my story elsewhere about the New Yorkers who were worried about the Indians being on the 'war path' if they came to visit?

Does this help pi$$ you off some more??  Better yet, get you to thinking about the wider topic of Oklahoma's place in the world?  And how it may relate to getting companies to consider us for, oh, I don't know....maybe a new facility or two, instead of moving the existing ones to Texas??

I am about as fond of turnpikes as anyone but Oklahoma does not have a monopoly in that regard.

Pennsylvania TPK, NJ TPK, toll roads around Richmond VA, Florida TPK, MA TPK out of Boston, VA Beach Expressway (now free I've heard), Toll roads around Dallas, Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, Bridges across the Delaware River from Philadelphia to NJ.....  Those are just the ones I remember first hand.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll_roads_in_the_United_States

I like the idea of the turnpike reading your license plate and billing you.  That is a plus when in Dallas.  I was able to use the Bush with no stop/no pikepass to get across town.  Our toll gates are outdated.

 

I wonder how that would work if you were pulling a trailer and the view of your car license was not readable.  Since we don't need trailer licenses for small/utility trailers in OK there would be nothing at the back and we have no tags on the front of our cars either.  Free ride or a pull over by Texas' finest?

Out-of-staters are apparently given a free ride.  I was never billed and per some of the other posters here, neither were they.

I've heard that.  I was wondering what would happen if they couldn't identify you as out of state because the view to your car tag was obscured.

Colorado has a system on their new 470 loop toll road around the north side of Denver.  No toll booths.  If you are out of state and drive the road, a few days later you get a bill in the mail from them for $7.50 each way.  Guy in office went that way about two months ago, got the bill for $15.

Don't know what they do for local people - probably the same, or maybe a pikepass approach.  I am very glad I didn't take that road when I had the chance.

I appreciate the qualification heironymous.  I'm not saying we don't have a perception problem, but if you think Texas doesn't have some of those same perception problems with East coasters, you're mistaken.  I'm not saying I'm 100% happy with Tulsa, but we don't need to be anything we're not either.  I can't help it if some Princeton-educated stock broker on Wall Street thinks there are Native Americans riding around on horseback in our state, that is 100% his problem not mine. 

One thing I will admit to...

I don't think our extensive Turnpike system and crappy state highways exactly send the message of economic prosperity and private investment capital of America.   Infrastructure in Oklahoma in general is probably some of the poorest in the country.  It doesn't reflect well on the quality of our people or our actual accomplishments.

Guess I missed this post awhile back.  IMO, this attitude is a microcosm of what's keeping Tulsa from moving forward.  Touting which "side of the tracks" you're on smacks of class warfare. 

Texas' biggest problem (in my view) is the arrogance and hubris.  Some of it is justified, 'cause they have accomplished much - the problem is that it is blown all out of proportion to those accomplishments.  (Big hat, no cattle syndrome.)  A lot of the Yankees I deal with from time to time pretty much let it be known that yeah, they may think OK is backward, but many of those same just flat out hate Texas/Texans.  Go figure...not sure how those connections are made in people's minds.  Regardless, this is still and likely always will be the big "flyover country".

I like Tulsa a lot.  Probably as much as any of the cheerleaders here.  I got lot's of gripes, but some of that comes with being a habitual bitcher, plus the aggravation of knowing that we could be doing many things much better.  I have literally looked at every corner of the nation with an eye to being a place I might want to live before, during, or after retirement.  Have only found two viable candidates - Toronto Canada and Flagstaff, AZ.  And neither has the kind of career infrastructure that interests me now, so would have to be later.  I, too couldn't care less what most New Yorkers think - the ones I mention were long distance friends as well as business contacts, so I did want to influence their attitudes. 

Our myopic little provincial view of the world has led us to doing actual damage to outside opportunities.  Most recent big one would be the latest set of tax cuts to 5% max.  Leaving us about $700 million in the hole.  That ripples throughout our state like those earthquakes we have enjoyed this week.  Roads, education, courts/prisons, child services, and probably myriad other things I can't think of on the spur of the moment.  We should not have made the cuts at all and used the so-called "extra" to pay off some debt (turnpikes), re-build bridges, build more prisons if we want to keep on putting people away (another discussion of ignorance in the state), keep tuition lower so more people can afford those college educations that return 10 or 20 to 1 on the investment.  FIX STUFF!!!!!

As far as bringing in massive amounts of new industry/business, well that is not just a pipe dream, but could be a very dangerous event should it actually happen.  If we were able to somehow double our business activity, we would be in an amazing, huge bowl of s*** soup.  We can't take care of the infrastructure we have, and we would then need double (or at least significantly more).  We have adequate water resources now, but doubling any activity in the state would put us in dire straits.  For every individual item of growth in economic activity, there is a corresponding growth in needs for background support, be it streets, pipes for water/gas/oil/whatever, buildings, concrete, transportation, electricity, etc.  OG&E and PSO both say there is plenty of capacity on the grid right now.  Double that?

And we have proven repeatedly and convincingly that we are not willing as a a state to do the necessary things for that activity increase.  We physically can't be Texas, and I don't think we should try until we get our internal act together better.

This is a riff on a shirt they sell on campus in Norman that reads, "Don't Edmond my Norman" or something along those lines.  I was obviously being tongue in cheek but the wordplay in my brain reads it as "Don't jinx my downtown" by building suburban style development downtown.

Fair enough. Some days I have a better sense of humor than others! :)