The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

It seems they've just installed timers on a lot of crosswalks downtown. Along First and Archer is where I've seen the most of them. In theory, I like the addition. In practice, however, they seem to be installed strangely.

At most of them 5-10 seconds elapse after the timer turns to zero before the light turns yellow. At a couple of them, the light turns yellow immediately upon the timer reaching zero. I've always thought the purpose of the countdown timer was to show how much time was left to cross, so I don't really see the need for 5-10 seconds extra after the timer reaches zero.

I hope they're just working the kinks out. The most important thing is that they all be the same in terms of the extra time after the countdown reaches zero.

Anybody have any info on these? Will they be installed all over downtown?

They seem to be spreading across downtown.

And they make no sense whatsoever. I've seen several of instances of timers at the same intersection where one direction, the light turns yellow at zero. The other direction, there's a 5-10 second delay after zero.

I think this is part of our new plan to get rid of pedestrians. Get them used to a 10 second delay after zero, but throw a few in there with no delay. It's sort of like when towns monkey with yellow light times to generate revenue. Only instead of revenue, we're generating dangerous situations for pedestrians.

Yes, I've seen them at the corner of 2nd and Denver (the T intersection to the arena).  I had noticed they had been using touch sensitive buttons to activate them, but hadn't noticed the timers until now.  Most larger cities I've been to have these already.

I've seen them in plenty of cities, larger and smaller than Tulsa. But I've never seen such a delay. The seven second delay from zero to yellow is enough time to cross the street if you hustle. At least if they all had that delay, I could adjust to it. But the fact that a few of them have no delay is not user friendly nor is it safe.

They're being installed in downtown over the next two or three months, along with new LED traffic signals, as part of a nearly $700,000 grant. They're replacing 1100 lights, and I would imagine that once all of them have been installed, they'll be appropriately synced.

Lights, however well-timed they are, can't overrule common sense. If it's safe to walk, walk. If not, don't. Drivers in Tulsa don't exactly pay attention to pedestrians or lights.

And plus, if you're given extra time after it reaches zero, that would theoretically make it safer for a pedestrian to get across the street, not more dangerous. In any instance, one should try to be across the street by the time it reaches zero.

Maybe the crosswalk timers are all timed exactly the same, but the traffic signals are set to different timers in different directions and intersections?

If their set so there's extra time after zero, we're back to square one. Which is where we were before the timers were installed. Before the timers were installed, the average pedestrian could cross the street safely two or three times during the time 'don't walk' was flashing but the light was still green.

You either wait for the walk signal at every light (which would probably double the time it would take to walk any distance downtown) or you make a decision to cross without being given enough information to really know whether you have time.

The purpose of the timers is to give pedestrians the proper amount of information as to whether they have time to cross.

Sidenote: At least we're not Dallas. While downtown there, I saw a timer that was counting down from 99 or something. I pulled up at a cross street in my car, tripped the signal, and it immediately went to zero and the light changed. That's just completely ridiculous and unsafe. But I'd expect no less from one of the most car dependent to the detriment of pedestrians in every single part of the city.

And that statement shows that most people don't know what the lights mean... The walking person or WALK means it's the pedestrian's turn to cross the street. The flashing hand or DON'T WALK means "don't start walking across the street because there may not be enough time for you to cross the street". A steady hand symbol or DON'T WALK means the light is about to change to red and that time has expired. Pedestrians should not be in the street when the DON'T WALK like is steady.

From walkinginfo.org:
Even if there are a few extra seconds before the traffic light turns red, you shouldn't begin crossing the street with a flashing DON'T WALK and you shouldn't be in the intersection at all by the time the pedestrian crossing is a steady DON'T WALK.

Wait a few months and see if, after the installation of all 1,100 new lights are installed, they're not in sync and re-timed.

I know what they mean. I also know that there's not much more frustrating than stopping every block and standing there while there was plenty of time to pass through the intersection before cross traffic had a green light.

On the old crosswalks downtown when I was figuring out whether to cross or not, walk meant you had all the time in the world. Flashing don't walk meant you still had plenty of time. Solid don't walk while the light was still green meant you still had time to make it before the light turned.

The walk/don't walk signals must be timed for people who are an average of 92 years old, because the timing of walk/don't walk is just ridiculous. No able-bodied human walks as slowly as those signals assume.

If you stood there and waited for the walk signal at every intersection, your time to get from point A to point B downtown would easily double for no good reason.

Every light I've seen has turned Yellow when it hits Zero. As far as timing goes, the countdown ranges depending on the light. I've gone through a 10 and a 15 at the same intersection.

Here in Phoenix the downtown ones are set at 24 seconds, and the ones that are being placed elsewhere are usually 30 seconds and some 45 depending on the area. But as grizz points out about when it hits zero, that's the way all of them are here. If there is any delay between zero and the light changing to yellow it's un noticable. The one advantage I have found in driving is that since they are all set the same way, I can judge wether or not I will make the light.

I assumed they'd have to start timing them for all the Hoverounds we'd have if they open a Walmart downtown.


(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3ngDGtcjp3mBmeciPmPjvxn3ydk8WfhVwmGqlpWP8fdZuCXQl)

Don't go there, don't even say that. That's a bad, bad idea that should never be mentioned again. Some bored developer might just read that and get (bad) ideas.

Maybe they've fixed my complaint, but as of last week the majority of them had a significant delay of 5-7 seconds. I don't mind the delay, just as long as it's consistent across the board.

If 95% of them have a delay, I'm gonna get stuck out in the middle of the intersection on one of the 5% that have no delay.

I just don't understand the need for crosswalk signals downtown, except between 5 and 6.  With the ultra wide roads meant to drain the area as quickly as possible, I spend more time waiting, watching an empty street, than is given for a time to cross. 

Agreed. It's usually just as easy or easier just to wait for the two cars to go once the light turns green and cross against the signal. Of course, the fact that seemingly 50% of people driving downtown are lost makes it more difficult. There's always some moron stopping in the middle of the road for no reason, stopping on green, going the wrong way on a one-way, turning from a lane three lanes from the turn lane, etc.

My pet peeve:
Driver's that don't know you can turn left on red.

From the Oklahoma Driver's Manual (http://www.dps.state.ok.us/dls/pub/ODM.pdf)
Page 5-11
Red Light:  After coming to a complete stop, you may turn right on red and you
may turn left from a one-way street into a one-way street unless there
are signs forbidding the turn. When you turn, you must yield to all
pedestrians and vehicles using the intersection, including bicycles.

I've wondered about the left onto a one-way from a one-way.  I've asked cops, but never got an answer.  Good to know I wasn't risking a ticket all this time.  Guess the laws are logical sometimes.

Hey, thanks for that.  I never looked it up and never got an absolute answer from anyone.

I've been your pet peeve because I'd sit there looking for cops and asking everyone in my car if they knew.

You've brightened my day.

Thanks day brightener.  Smiley face placed in theis general area.

I tested it in front of a cop a time or two and never got stopped, so I stopped worrying about it, though I wasn't sure on the legality of it before. 

To everyone who did not know that:
Isn't that kind of like your responsibility to know the traffic laws before you take the test?  And if you took the test before the law was changed, isn't it still kind of like your responsibility to be aware of the laws to enjoy the privilege of driving?

Consider yourself chastised if you resemble that remark!

Now, what about U-turns??

Never covered that one in drivers ed.  Never read the code from one end to the other either. 

U-turns are legal unless otherwise posted.  Changed some years ago.  Still waiting for that U-Turn signal to be installed in cars

17 foot medians are required to make them legal..least last I checked that was the requirement.  I think only one road in town that qualifies, and that's 11th between Sheridan and Mingo.

Google "Oklahoma Driver Manual" and you get the pdf file as the first item.

Good reading if you are having trouble going to sleep.

I think you are correct becaues on that stretch of 11th street you are pretty much making two left turns. I know that when I lived there the biggest problem for u-turns, aside from being illegal then, was alot of the streets weren't wide enough to complete the u-turn properly.

I was 'perusing' through the traffic code yesterday, and while it doesn't come right out and say it, it makes it murky as to what is legal or not legal as it pertains to u-turns.


So it appears to be subject to interpretation.  As for the 17 foot median rule, which does not appear to be in the code, I thought I read a quote from a TPD officer about the time I moved back to town when there was some talk of reforming the code.  My memory serves me as him stating the only section of road qualifying for safe uturns was that section I mentioned.

I would probably get a ticket for one if I moved back. In AZ, and I will have to double check to make sure I'm correct, unless it's marked "No U-Turn" you can make one just about anywhere.

Found it:


http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00752.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS (http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00752.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS)

I can't stand the arrogant bastards who block at an intersection without turn lanes like 21st & Peoria with their left turn signal on right under the "no left turn sign".

Why is it some people think traffic laws only apply to everyone else or that signs are merely suggestions?  Grrrrr!

I've really had it with the lane crowders in the IDL where traffic is merging for the current BA bridge projects heading eastbound.  Everyone crams as far up the line as they can to get in to the single lane and it creates a huge mess.  If everyone would simply merge further back, traffic would flow a lot better.  Last Friday, I watched a woman in a BMW SUV stay glued to the bumper on the car in front of her intent on not letting anyone else in.  Finally one of the lane chargers tried to cut in on her, succeeded in doing it, then the BMW driver went to the left shoulder and tried to cut in again on the person who had just cut in.  The other driver escaped to the IDL northbound, I honked and saluted the biznitch in the Bimmer.

Sorry for the hi-jack

/rant

I got pulled over for a U-turn at the intersection at the stop sign at OSU-Tulsa. I can't really see where that's illegal under those laws the "official traffic-control signal light device" referenced in the law seems to be an extremely wordy way of saying stoplight. There was no other traffic at the intersection. I have a small car, so I was able to complete the u-turn in one movement.

I just got a warning anyway.

As for those 'no left turn' signs, as someone who does most of his driving at off hours, it irritates the piss out of me that I can't turn left at those intersections at off-peak hours. There's no valid reason to ban left turns at 11pm, other than giving cops more reasons to pull people over.

They have lots of 'no left turn' signs around town that are only in effect during certain hours. There shouldn't be any 24/7 no left turn signs.

When I lived in Houston that was quite popular, but the signs were plainly posted and the restrictions were usually common sense, like on busy arterials the signs would say 'No Left Turn hours 7AM-9AM, 4PM-6PM'.

These new crosswalk timers are still jacked up. Most of them have an extra 7-10 seconds after the countdown reaches zero. A few of them have no extra time.

I still maintain the old crosswalks were better. At least then I knew the flashing don't walk meant I still had time to make it across. Now it's just guessing whether there's a bunch of extra time after zero.

Most of the ones I've encountered don't seem to have the extra 7-10 seconds.

I like knowing how long I have to turn left onto Elgin and still hit a green lite going through 2nd street. Plus, I don't like having to sit in front of that bookstore waiting for the light to change. There's so much pedestrian traffic down in that area.....not. :D

I've been paying attention to them, and it just didn't seem to make sense as to why some would go longer than others until something occured to me, the timing of the lights.  They are set up so that on the one ways you catch them green as long as your going 20mph.  I have to assume that there is a set time to how long the crosswalks are supposed to be white, flash, solid and count.  The time after this that seems to vary on these after the count down would seem to be the differance of the time the lights have to stay red to keep this timing accurate.  Makes sense to me anyhow.

Go on Friday and Saturday.  There was literally a traffic jam on eastbound 2nd Street as I was trying to get to 244 last Saturday night.

Oh, wait, you won't go downtown.  So how the hell can you speak as to how busy it is anytime of the day or night.

I go downtown. And I like Petula Clarke too. I was downtown just last night. Had a beer at Fassler Hall and listened to the Rangers and GAT beneath the loud murmur of boozers yacking it up. Between sets visited with two of Tulsa's most premier drummers.

Downtown is just ok. Lots of alcohol drugs downtown. Lots and lots of self medicators too. ;)

(http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/rorschach.jpg)?

Downtown rodents! ;D

Looks like a Yorkshire Terrier who had a bad run in with a blow torch.

Saw it waiting on the crosswalk changers to turn last night at 3rd and Elgin.

Coming out of the book store?

Yes....IT was crawling out of the book store! You better stay away from going back in... :)

Last night <> Weekend.

The cross walk timers are for walkers and when they hit "zero" it just means that walkers are  not supposed to leave the curb because there is not enough time to cross the street before the  traffic light lets the cars go thru. Councle Bluffs Iowa has countdown timers for some of the traffic lights for motor traffic so you know when the yellow & red light is coming up as you approach the green light. That way you know how long ya got to make the intersection before the light goes yellow/red. Most are located in the downtown district, they also use red light cameras there too to ticket drivers who run red lights.

Incorrect. The ones with the 10 second delay leave you just enough time to walk across the street if you hustle. The ones without a delay leave you stranded in the middle of the street when the light turns.

And every one I've every seen in other cities, the zero corresponds with the end of the green light. It doesn't really matter how they set them up, as long as they're all the same. But they sure as heck shouldn't make you guess or try to memorize every downtown intersection as to which timers are set up which way.

All of the ones here in the Phoenix metro area are set up that when the counter hit zero the light changes from green to yellow. Doesn't matter which city in the valley they all operate the same.

Yep, I crossed at 13th and Denver and the light changed to Red as soon as the timer countdown concluded. The dogs and I had to hurry to get out of traffic.

I still say that they have the inconsistancies because they figured it would go with the standard time for crossing, and make up the difference on the timing needed for the synchronized traffic lights by adding on after the timer.  I have seen these in other cities as well and the lights always change to yellow when the timer hits zero. 

And Kraut, THERE ARE NO RED LIGHT CAMERAS IN TULSA

Maybe it would help if Tulsa didnt shorten it's yellow lights...

http://www.shortyellowlights.com/standards/

Okay someone with severe OCD has way too much time on their hands

You talking about Patric or the author of that website...

...ducks and runs.