The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

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Breaking News Alert: Reports: Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords killed at public event
January 8, 2011 2:25:06 PM
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Arizona Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords has died after being shot while hosting an event on Saturday morning outside a Tucson grocery store, according to National Public Radio and CNN.

NPR reported that Giffords, who in November narrowly won reelection to a third term, was hosting her first "Congress on Your Corner" event when a gunman ran up and began shooting. Giffords and six others died, the Pima County Sheriff's Office confirmed to NPR.

Supposedly she's still alive and in surgery.  The original report of her death has been retracted at this point by all major outlets.   

Which doesn't take away from the horror of it one iota. 

Reportedly, one of the deceased is a federal judge and one was a child, local reports say that Giffords is extremely critical at this time.

And now conflicting reports on that as well, saying the federal judge was not killed.  Very dynamic story, so not surprising there are conflicts.

The one comfirmation so far is that Gifford suffered a through and through shot to the head. She is still critical but responding to commands, and that one of the fatalities was a 9 month old child.

Wow.

Before I piss of the righties, I'm going to preface the next part of my comment with a disclaimer:  I don't subscribe to the notion that people would do this on purpose, but the half-governor might well think twice next time she puts up a map with crosshairs on it when she proclaims the following:

Sarah Palin: “Don’t Retreat, Instead RELOAD!”

We’re paying particular attention to those House members who voted in favor of Obamacare and represent districts that Senator John McCain and I carried during the 2008 election. to make sure that those who replace them are Commonsense Conservatives. hold them accountable They are: Ann Kirkpatrick (AZ-1), Harry E. Mitchell (AZ-5), Gabrielle Giffords (AZ-8)...

One of the crosshairs at the time she did this was on Giffords' district.

The feeling in the local media is that this may be health care, immigration or tax reform related.

I'm also going to preface the following with this:  although the AP has sourced this as the person who has done the shooting, there has been no LEO confirmation of such.  He has a 5 video Youtube channel.  This guy (if this is truly the guy) seems scattered to me.  He sure hates religion, and talks about creating a new currency, with some hatred of the government.

Oh, and his video composition is terrible!

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

dback, AZcentral.com is reporting that the child was 9 years old.  Either way, still sick, if some of the eyewitness reports as to how he was doing this are correct (walking up to victims one-by-one and shooting them.  Doesn't sound real random).

As everyone has read or heard the reports were conflicting, thanks for the update. Yes I had heard about the way he was shooting his victims so it doesn't sound random.

As it is it's very fluid at this time and it will be a few days before the whole investigation starts to come together

For those may may want to listen to some of the local news on this, the New Talk 92.3:

http://www.ktar.com/ (http://www.ktar.com/)

Quite the circle jerk in here....You guys enjoy your cigs and naps......

Pretty crass statement, even for you...considering what happened.  Not surprising though.

 ::)

And one of the most sane and memorable quotes of the day sums up in one sentence what has been going on for over two years (or more) now in this country.

"Vitriol might be free speech, but it's not without consequences." - Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, Pima County (AZ) Sheriff

Such a senseless act.   

My thoughts and prayers go to all the victims of this atrocity. 

I have been thinking about the events of the day here in AZ, and having watched the news from both sides, I think the best comments came form Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, "Vitriol might be free speech, but it's not without consequences." and I agree with his laying the blame at members of the talk radio and talk tv as fueling the levels of anger and that it may cause a person with mental issues to take action. I also have to agree with his comment about Arizona becoming the "Mecca of bigotry in this country" it has been brewing here for the last three to four years.

 

There is enough blame for what hapened today on the left the right and the center of politics. And I have to say that I am saddened by the events, but I am not suprised. Today could have happened anywhere in the US, it just happened to have occured here.

 

Thank you, just my $.02

Just trying to fit in with the direction of your incompetent post above......

Yeah, but I notice no one is arguing the fact.  Including you.  Other than to note about 'circle jerks'.

Palin DID post the map and had the crosshairs.  Now, regardless of whether or not the intent was there, it was a pretty stupid thing to do.

Oh, unless you're a rabid Palin supporter.

Palin also made this lovely one:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/reload.jpg)

and of course the infamous crosshairs:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/target.jpg)

Yep, that's what I'm referring to.  Someone over on the Whirled page commented that someone had taken the photo down today.  I'm wondering why it took from last March until now to take it down?  I guess Palin is a little REactive as opposed to PROactive.

This is exactly the kind of vitriol (along with Jesse Kelley, Gifford's Republican opponent in the last election, who hosted a shooting event with the following invitation:"Get on Target for Victory" — "Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office" by shooting a "fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly") that causes crap like this.

Let's also not forget those loving words of inspiration from Uncle Glenn;

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2010/12/01/tally-grows-of-viewers-moved-to-violence-by-becks-rants/ (http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2010/12/01/tally-grows-of-viewers-moved-to-violence-by-becks-rants/)

I think I found a link from my previous post to the youtube ramblings of today.

“Rich, like myself, loved Glenn Beck,” Eddie Perkovic, Poplawski’s best friend told reporter Will Bunch of Media Matters, among others. Prior to the shooting, Poplawski reportedly was “obsessed” with two of Beck’s pet theories: that there is an imminent food crisis and that paper money will soon be worthless. Like Kimbley and Williams, Poplawski worried that the government planned to intern dissidents in concentration camps.



And:

Beck proclaimed in January that like the “Israeli Nazi hunters … I’m going to expose what [progressives] have done and make sure that people understand.” In June, he said “anarchists, Marxists, communists, revolutionaries, Maoists” would need to “eliminate 10% of the population” to “gain control.” In July, he said that “[t]he army… of the extreme left is gathering” and that it believes that “cops are bad, kill the cops, they’re the oppressors.” In September, he warned, “Violence will come. And violence will come from the left. Violence is part of the plan.”

   I'll bet there are some Arizona gun shop owners sweating bullets right now hoping this guy didn't purchase the gun and extra clips from them.
Also, you can  bet somewhere someone is combing old Arizona Tea Party rally videos hoping to find this guy waving a placard.

   As an open carry state, could the cops have stopped this guy as he approached the rally while carrying his Glock  or would that have been violating his constitutional rights and the Arizona open carry law (until he opened fire, of course, which then becomes illegal)?

No they could not stop or try to stop him unless he was making an overt or obvious threat.

Doesn't it seem odd that a guy who was refused admittance by the military, likely for drug charges and mental instability, was able to purchase a gun and receive a permit? Shouldn't there be some sharing of information between the gun permitters and the military and police? Just wondering out loud.

It's ironic that the very things this guy railed about (restraints on freedom of speech, government intrusion into personal freedoms, gun control) are more likely to occur because of his actions.

Sheriff Dupnik was great. Very controlled and able.

"The suspect purchased a firearm legally — and after passing an FBI background check — from Sportsman's Warehouse's Tucson store in November, the company's vice president of hunting operations told FoxNews.com.

Loughner did not present a concealed weapons permit so he was required to pass an FBI background check, which he did "immediately and without incident," said Matt French, speaking from the Sportsman's Warehouse's Utah headquarters."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/09/arizona-suspected-gunman-no-stranger-to-trouble/#ixzz1AZS3lqKR

How many rounds in an extended clip?  20 people were hit (killed or wounded, with at least one bullet apiece); add in the inevitable misses and that amounts to more than one, right?  

Notice you did post the bulls eye on Giffords from the freakin DAILY KOS.

(http://patterico.com/files/2011/01/Markos-2-600x452.jpg)

And again from Kos.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:egHLC2hTfZoJ:www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/6/933828/-My-CongressWOMAN-voted-against-Nancy-Pelosi!-And-is-now-DEAD-to-me!+My-CongressWOMAN-voted-against-Nancy-Pelosi+dailykos&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Here's a great piece tearing into the "Blame Palin" hypocrisy that was accurately described by breadburner as a circle jerk.

http://patterico.com/2011/01/08/markos-blames-palin-for-giffords-shooting-but-theres-just-one-problem-daily-kos-put-a-bulls-eye-on-giffords-too/
Oh, and I know persons that read Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto are all about listening to Palin. PDS over this horrific event is about as stupid as one can get. What dooshbags.

guido, I did not get that from Daily KO's, I got it throuh a friends facebook posting that was a link to the Christian Right Face Book page.

Nice of you to ask where I got it, instead of jumping all over me.

Besides I'm not blaming Palin, theres enough of it to go around for everyone.

Why else would you post what you did? And tell us who else is to blame?

Jacobson weighs in:

http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2011/01/two-sicknesses-on-display-in-arizona.html

So you think that I am a liberal? On what grounds? Because I posted something that Palin had posted? That in a previos post I called out an article from splc.org regarding cases of people commiting acts of violence in the name of their hero Glenn Beck?

You are so wrong. The only grounds you know are floating around in your bong water waiting for you to get a paper towel to sift them out.

I didn't call you a liberal. I do call the likes of you hypocrites and dooshbags for looking for any excuse to engage in your misogynistic PDS. Here's an idea! Let's blame Obama. After all, he has made the following statements:

** Obama: “They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”
** Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”
** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose donkey to kick.“
** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
** Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”
** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”

http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/did-barack-obama-cause-the-shootings-yesterday-in-tucson/

Also, I heard the murderer bought his gun last November and passed an background check under Obamas FBI. The evidence is really piling up that this one's on ol' Barry. ::)

I love it when you talk dirty to me!


FIFY


Weren't those the laws that were passed under the Brady Bill? And have been enforced for a very long time?

FYI guido

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/scan2-1.jpg)

Are you dense or something? I was making the point about how inane it is to blame anyone else but the shooter. Still waiting for you to tell us who else is too blame (from your previous post).

Oh, and the fact that you are a repub does not excuse PDS.

Yes I blame the shooter, now that he has been officially charged. I was refering to things that may have pushed him over the edge (still waiting for confirmation on that one) as has happened in other documented cases.


PDS, Princeton Day School, a private school in Princeton, New Jersey, nah, never been to Jersey.

Makes me wonder how Palin Derangement Syndrome, as Tony is referring to, has anything to do with this since it's a proven fact she did provide the image with the crosshairs (her staffers that is), they weren't taken down until yesterday.  Regardless of whether or not she meant anything by it, she did it by proxy.  And since I rarely read Daily Kos, if they did put a bullseye on Giffords back, then shame on them also.  Last I was told by those wiser than me, two wrongs don't make a friggin' right.

But three rights make a left.

By the way, I've seen a package of saltines with more substance than

http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/did-barack-obama-cause-the-shootings-yesterday-in-tucson/ (http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/01/did-barack-obama-cause-the-shootings-yesterday-in-tucson/)

Lol...Its easy to see who had to eat the cookie with the man-relish on it after the circle-jerk.....

Oh, I got it now, I thought he might have been refering to one of the following:

Party of Democratic Socialism (Germany)
Party of Democratic Socialism (India)
Progressive Democrats, a defunct political party of Ireland
Democratic Party of the Left (Partito Democratico della Sinistra), a defunct political party of Italy
Senegalese Democratic Party (Parti Démocratique Sénégalais), a political party of Senegal
Sudanese Democratic Party (Parti Démocratique Soudanais), a defunct political party of Sudan
Democratic Social Party (Partido Democrático Social), a defunct political party of Brazil
Prosperous Peace Party (Partai Damai Sejahtera), a political party of Indonesia
Parti de la Democratie Socialiste, a defunct provincial political party of Quebec, Canada

Makes me wonder why you and Gweed started posting around the same time again.  Must have been a marathon session for you guys.

Awwww....Hossy, you guys shared it.....Sharing is caring...Good Boi....!!!!!

No thanks.  I'm afraid of an STD.

 :o

guido..there is this thing called context. You should learn about it.

Look the pivot man is here...Your shares of the cookie just got smaller but  your portion of man-relish just got bigger so that should make you  :o ;D..........

Oh I get it. When Palin did her little cross hairs ad, she meant that Giffords and the others were to be shot. But when Obama and Kos uses violent terms or in KOS's case do the same damned thing Palin did, they didn't actually mean it. The context was different.

They are the CjC from here on out...!!!!!!!.....Even looks like a pair of balls with a tiny crooked ding-A-ling........

CjC = Circle Jerk Coalition. You sir are killing today. Oops, I shouldn't have said that. Now people will think I am advocating violence and now I will be responsible for that time of crime.

I don't like violent rhetoric no matter who it comes from. "Fight" is not violent rhetoric, but you knew that.

Regardless, I know most of the nationally known nutters aren't calling for violence. The problem is that their deranged listeners don't understand the concept of metaphor.

Edited to add: I don't know why I let myself get sucked in to your attempts at drawing moral equivalence. Just because left-wing lunatics do things that right-wing lunatics do doesn't make either of them better than the other. Those of us who would prefer to see sane discourse lose whether it's your moronic babble or some kosbag's moronic babble or Sharron Angle's "second amendment solution" babble.

This smile isn't about sides. It's about right and wrong. Political violence is wrong. Calling for political violence is wrong. Attempting to justify political violence is wrong.

Just read that Hanoi Jane Fonda is blaming Palin/Beck/Tea Party. Speaks volumes with those in here with PDS.

Look Nate, I didn't start this crap. Go to the first page to find that out. Then dbacks thought it would be helpful to post Palin's ad. It was ME that was trying to ad a little context and to point out how stupid affixing blame to anyone else other than the shooter.

BTW, since you seem to know tons more than the media and those "in the know" about this horrible event, tell us how you know this shooter listened to Beck or talk radio, or saw Palin's cross hairs ad.

You sure like that term BB...did you get a little unwanted something (or somethings) after passing out at a party in college?  sounds like you might need to seek help for it.

Ah yes, BB is part of the local Teaba ..errr.. Tea Party..how's that?

The shooter (and his apparent accomplice(s)) should be blamed for the shooting. The people using violent rhetoric should be blamed for using violent rhetoric, since using violent rhetoric makes violent action seem that much closer to the norm. We've had far too much political violence in the last couple of years. Whether it's because we had gone through a period of time without it making it less plain what a shitty road it is to go down or whether it's because of the increasingly inflammed words being spewed by the crazies on both sides (but seemingly mainly acted upon by the righties, although that may be a perception bias on my part), I don't know.

It's a stretch to say that this guy looked at Palin's map and said "oh well, I'm going to go shoot me a Congresswoman," but it's not a stretch to say that sort of thing contributes to crazies like the shooter thinking that political violence is OK.

It is interesting how Palin's staff spent the day yesterday scrubbing her site of the image and other violent rhetoric she has been using. Apparently even Palin can sense the political winds shifting now that a member of Congress has been shot.

I brought it up as a reference to a comment that Hoss made, not that I was pointing blame. I read through some of Loghner's youtube ramblings and it reminded me of comments made by Beck relating to "you should be buying gold because they are destroying the US Currency(not just his shill commercials for gold line). Also it remended me of his comments about the gov't is trying to take your guns, your freedom, they're trying to turn the US into a socialist country, and that we need to rise up and take it back." This led me to the article from splc.org about three other people who have acted out in violence with eveidence that they were influenced by Becks comments in commiting their acts.
I was not pointing blame in those posts, I was drawing a conclusion to my thoughts as to what may have set this person off.

Now I have said this plainly and calmly and did not need to some website to complete my statement.

Guido if you want to sit and attack my political views and call me names we can go on for days, yes I made a comment about you and a bong, I was not the first and I'm willing to bet I won't be the last.

Sorry Hossy....My nick name in College was Frosty the Snowman........

(http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-07-22/1248237707020.jpg)

That was awesome. You may need to explain that pic to the CjC.

Oh, I'm sure you were 'curious', though..tell me, did you wear cardigans at the frat house with the boys?

 ;D

You republicans sure are quick to argue on this one...it clearly hit a nerve.

The DailyKos said the district should be targeted. Sarah Palin put gun crosshairs on her.

Do you not think there is a difference?

Ohhh..They know what the "Frosting" is The CjC loves...."The Frosting"....**Squirt**

Please refrain from making inappropriate attacks on other posters.  

RM. I want you to watch this video of the mother who lost the 9 year old girl in this shooting:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2WwurJie_w[/youtube]

But by all freakin means, let's talk about Sarah Palin. There are some real heartless _______ in this forum.  BB, thanks for calling out some of these opportunists out.

No guido.

Palin was wrong.

You should be ashamed to defend her on this.

Actually I'm surprised there wasn't a nearly successful attempt to assassinate George W Bush with all the rhetoric that went on about him. I seem to remember some attempts on Gerald Ford and Ron Reagan.  There are crazies on all sides.  No, I am not forgetting JFK, RFK, Lincoln, McKinley (I believe), and maybe a few others I am forgetting.  I'm sure some of the trash talk about Inhofe and Coburn, even on this forum, could be spun into cause to assassinate to someone with mental "issues".

This whole thing is tragic.  For someone to think that Palin's symbolic crosshairs were intended to be actual gunsights is only possible for someone with other "issues".

I'm not defending anyone, except the memory of that little girl. YOU should be ashamed for taking the opportunity to attack Sarah Palin while this child's family, and the families of five others, are in mourning. YOU should be ashamed for your disgusting attempt to take advantage of these peoples' losses to advance some bullsmile partisan crap. I think I read everything in thread (I could be wrong), but please show me where you have given two smiles about the lives lost at the hands of this madman (after all, you care so much about kids).

We all know that it wasn't.  My problem with it is that it remained up on her FB page and website until yesterday.  And then someone explains it away as being a 'mistake'.  Sure.

I don't think anyone is saying this nutjob did this BECAUSE of the image.  I think what most of us ARE saying is that the imagery and rhetoric has been so thick in the last two years that I'm surprised no one has taken a shot at someone yet.  And yes, most of that rhetoric comes from people who align themselves with the party out of power.  the Dems did the same thing in the late sixties and early seventies.  Just not so much.  And back then, they didn't have the luxury of the Internet for instant news updates and bloggers working with less than a six-pack upstairs.

I wrote that I think Sarah Palin was wrong to put crosshairs on a congresswomen on her website. Please explain how that is me taking the opportunity to take advantage of other people's losses.

I think you have lost all reason on this thread. I am surprised by your posts on this topic.

The sad part is that you could see something like this coming.  Someone was going to do something pretty spectacularly horrible to someone prominent in government.  Given the animosity, the crazy rhetoric, the almost calculated pushing of boundaries, both in Washington and at specifically Tea Party rallies . . . not to mention Beck's nutso ranting, there's just no way we were going to get out of this era without something like his happening.  In some ways it's a miracle that we didn't have something on the scale of Oklahoma City to contend with, and there's nothing to say that we couldn't still.

For what it's worth, here's a well-documented timeline (http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/guns-democracy-and-freedom/insurrection-timeline) of the last two and a half years in "insurrection," or just in escalating craziness.  When you see some of the more disparate acts brought together in this form, they make sense as part of a rising tide of loners and fringe whackos egged on by the obviously inciteful rhetoric on the right.

Here's a good article by James Fallows in the Atlantic. (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/the-cloudy-logic-of-political-shootings/69147/)  It's short and quick, and makes excellent, smart distinctions about how politics does and does not square with what we know about the shooter.  

Lol...You should look in the mirror......

Oh, that was certainly a zinger!

Shame on everyone who immediately jumped on this in an attempt to make it political.

This kid was a nut.  It seems now from reports that he was an undiagnosed or non-compliant Psychotic. Ever since highschool people have feared that he would kill someone.  He was kicked out of community college because as his teacher explained "Every time I would turn around to write something on the chalkboard, I would always turn back quickly to see if he had a gun."  His politics are immaterial because they were formulated in an unhealthy mind.

There are accusations on both sides.  Former classmates claiming he was a religion-hating left wing pot-head, and other accusations that he was a tea party flag waving right wing nut job.  Either way, he was mentally ill and someone was going to die by his hand without intervention.

Shame on anyone who uses him for political gain! 

Why [This Tradgedy] Means That We Must Support My Politics
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/09/why-the-shootings-me-1.html

I am amazed how the republicans on this forum act as if politics didn't come in to play. The shooter was a republican who shot a democrat politician and had earlier confronted her about her votes on a bill.

Everything is political about it.

Got it.  Republicans are psychotic killers.  Has nothing to do with one sick dude.

Of course I am not saying that.

The guy was wack. He turned violent. Politics was a factor.

Why else would he shoot a politician?

Multiple factors.

The blame for the incident lies squarely on him and his state of mind.

What we know now and what we know in a week may be very different. 
Allow this to be a tragedy before you use it as a political tool.

I just prey that she will make a full recovery and ask that God lift up those who are morning the death of loved ones. 

It's odd--I have seen so much finger pointing at Palin, but very little at whom I see as having the most culpability (aside, of course from the actual shooter).  If you watch the deranged youtube videos, you'll see that the shooter was obsessed with the issue of currency.  Much like Glenn Beck.  I agree with all of the comments that assert the need to change the tone in Washington.  But I feel that they are missing the point.  The anger is bad, but isn't likely to lead to what happened in Tuscon.  Putting politicians in crosshairs is stupid, mean-spirited, and shouldn't happen.  But that isn't what sets off crazy people.  It's the paranoid, apocalyptic ranting of crazy people like Glenn Beck.  Asserting that the economy is on the verge of complete collapse, and that a modern day WWII is just around the corner, is going to set off people with mental illness.  That's pretty foreseeable.  You can disagree with people, you can argue that their position is wrong.  But don't go on air, blubbber & cry, insist that America is being destroyed & that there is a conspiracy to create a "New World Order"--then act surprised that some lunatic thought shooting people was the solution.

As much as I disliked George Bush's policies, I never thought that his presidency would bring about the end of civilization as we know it.  Neither will Obama's.

Before right-wingers jump all over me, I am very well aware that there are paranoid, left wing conspiracy mongers, who rant and rave about the end of civilization.  I just don't hear them on the radio.

That's because there isn't enough of an audience to make it financially feasible.

Really there's not any blame to "go around".

The blame falls squarely on the shoulders of Jared Loughner and evidence is mounting he was simply a psycho with anti-government views,  apparently was a truther, and according to this article had a personal beef with the Congresswoman dating back several years based on an earlier face-to-face encounter.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2011/01/10/associated-press-giffords-shooter-believed-us-government-was-behind-911

Very good. I was sure for a moment that it was a previous post on this forum.

EVERYTHING is political as has been pointed out on this forum numerous times. Which came first, the craziness of the person or the craziness of his politics is hard to determine. He reminds me of the Murrah bomber mostly. But for heavens sakes stay true to the ranting going on here for years....it is political.

As I said before and will say again, I was drawing a conclusion to observations that I made in reference to his youtube rants which drew a line for me to some of Glenn Becks comments about the gov't becoming socialist, and the comments about gold is what you need to own.
When I said there's enough blame to go around I was refering to people from talk radio, tv, and net pod casts and bloggers that push tese issues is what may have pushed hime over the edge. I was making a comment on the information that I had found and read from reliable sources to form my own opinion.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Loughner or possibly his mental illness don't bear the responsibility for his actions. I'm also saying that saying the crazy smile that some of the wingers say is tantamount to pouring gasoline on a house. Sure, they aren't striking a match and lighting it on fire, but they're going right up to that point with their constant accusations of treason and claims that the government is "taking over" (whatever that means in the context of the government we've had since the civil war).

Sane folks don't think that means it's time to take up arms and start killing Congresspeople, but it does a great job of planting ideas in the heads of nutters. This is true whether the rhetoric is coming from a lefty mad at Obama for not being lefty enough, whether it's some anarcho-libertarian who thinks that the only good government is a nonexistent government, or whether it's some confused individual like Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin who lacks an internally consistent philosophy.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sarah-palin-mails-glenn-beck-2010-ad-put/story?id=12582457&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sarah-palin-mails-glenn-beck-2010-ad-put/story?id=12582457&page=1)

Is it Bushs' fault yet..... ??? ??? ???

Queue sound of hairball being cleared.

Not directed at you so much as the many inaccuracies which are coming out on this story.  I'm not a big listener of political commentary shows anymore, so I have no reason to defend them other than the First Amendment.

Here's the thing, people are assuming he even listened to talk radio or watched the political channels on TV.  At least one of his friends is saying Loughner listened to music and he was not aware of him tuning into talk programs.  One of his college professors made him sound very, very sarcastic, cynical, and downright scary.

There was a huge rush to judgement on this within minutes on Saturday.  Everyone seems so intent on removing absolute responsibility from criminals.  "He was pushed by society to do it" "He was pushed by talk radio".  Bullshit, he picked up the Goddamn gun and carried this out because he's nuts.  You cannot force someone to do what is not within them to do in the first place in situations like this.  It makes as much sense as blaming a close friend a person had a spat with for that person commiting suicide.

I would be very interested to hear about his family life. he sounds like a very disturbed young man. Why was he so troubled and why was he not getting help? He lived with his parents. Why is there nothing from them?

Swake most troubling of all is friends, family, and teachers are all saying they thought he was capable of something like this (directly speaking and some are insinuating).  One would have to assume at some point the parents had tried to get him help or that the professor who was so wigged out about the guy would have told the administrators at the community college he attended.

Sadly I think this is a case of a ticking time bomb.  Until he committed a criminal act, there was simply nothing anyone could do to contain him legally or force him to get help.  

Sounds like you get it.

Rep Franks addresses the CjC's position:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4490896/we-cant-be-intimated-by-this/

The family sounds off, the father does not seem to have an employment history and has clashed with neighbors. Sounds like the kid may well have had a much less than ideal upbringing, and even worse the obvious choice of schizophrenia does seem to have a strong genetic component and does run in families.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/neighbors-jared-loughner-and-f.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0110/Jared-Lee-Loughner-what-is-known-about-Tucson-Arizona-shooting-suspect

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_chilling_shrine_in_madmans_yard.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40996934/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

You got that right. Remember late last year when Florida Republican Congressman Paul Kanjorski wanted to put Gov. Scott up against a wall and shoot him? No? That's because Kanjorski is actually a democrat.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/ex-rep-paul-kanjorski-d-pa-fla-gov-rick-scott-they-ought-put-him-

And now for the inevitable "let's kill Palin" meme from the non-violent left (I cannot verify the accuracy of this site).

http://punditpress.blogspot.com/2011/01/crazed-liberals-palin-must-be.html

Speaks volumes

(http://www.farleftside.com/2011/1-10-2011.jpg)

Good advice.

(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/235940/LOUGHNER-MUGSHOT.jpg)

That folks is what batshit crazy looks like.

Don't be so sure. According to the CjC, that's what a Tea Partier/Sarah Paliner looks like.  ;D

Pretty original Tony.  Don't forget your Cardigan when you and BB have your 'reunion' this weekend.

 ;D

Oh, and BTW, pretty good article here by Dana Milbank:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/10/AR2011011005321.html

Perhaps we should consider improving access to mental health care and figure out a way of keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people, whether that means making more effective use of laws already on the books or passing new laws and appropriating more money.

I'm quite sure that no one intended this to be taken as anything than a joke, right?

(http://mountainsageblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/2009-06-12-LiberalHuntingSticker.jpg)

Until sometime this evening, this sticker was available for sale at the famous liberal site, patriotshop.us (http://patriotshop.us). 

Not to be outdone, rightwingstuff.com (http://rightwingstuff.com) has its own version:

(http://images0.cpcache.com/product/90052410v5_240x240_Front.jpg)

At least that one doesn't depict bullet holes in the donkey. 

Just a little harmless fun with metaphors, huh? 

(http://www.blueballmedia.com/images/creepy.jpg)

The more I think about it, the more I think "crazy" is just a cop-out to avoid the responsibility which we (almost) all bear to some degree or another. Think about it: The moment somebody assassinates a political leader, they will invariably be labeled as crazy no matter how rational or irrational their thought process that led them to the assassination.

Also, statistically speaking, most assassins in the US since 1949 have not been crazy, and even the ones who were rarely the sort of delusional crazy, and even among those, they usually had a thought process that would seem rational to us sane people, just founded on mistaken assumptions.

For example (from a Secret Service-funded study in the late 90s): "Subjects who were clearly mentally ill often had defined (and technically 'rational') motives ... HJ, though psychotic, reasoned that if he attacked a high-ranking official, there would be a major investigation. During that investigation, HJ figured, the illegal CIA spy satellite system that had harassed him would come to public attention. While, in reality, there was no satellite system harassing HJ, had he attacked a senior federal official, there would have been a major investigation."

More laws and more money won't improve lack of compliance with present laws.

If Loughner had not been adjudicated as mentally insane, a legal U.S. citizen or legal foreign national, had not had in-patient treatment, and no prior felony he could legally purchase a weapon.  A felony should automatically be on his NCIC file.  Being judged as insane or having been in-patient at the ho-ho hotel would not necessarily wind up in someone's NCIC file.  I believe you could work within the existing framework of laws to improve reporting from various agencies but it simply illustrates how inefficient our bloated government already is.

I don't know what stats you are referring to but there's got to be something wrong with a person who can devise and carry out a very public or well-publicized deadly assault like this.  Saying he's crazy doesn't absolve him of responsibility, it's simply attaching a motive to a completely senseless crime.

Using the "insanity" defense may be a cop-out in some cases.  Fortunately, most of those cases have very good evidence that the person on trial committed the crime, they simply are sent to long-term or permanent lock-down in a high security mental institution rather than a prison.  At least they are removed from society.

Crazy has to rise to the level of really not knowing or understanding right from wrong before you can discuss his not being responsible. His actions certainly seem crazy, but also show from what I have read that he certainly also knew what he was doing was wrong. The way this was premeditated over a long period of time, the notes in the safe and his smirk in his police photo show someone that is firmly in control and understands what is going on and seemingly is enjoying the ride. His hatred for the government and the Congresswoman may not be rational, but his decision to act on that hatred was his. We all probably hate something in life but don’t choose to kill over it.

Think about this. 80% of murders happen between people that know each other. And over half of murders are between people that have a romantic or social relationship. Mostly these killings rise out of angry arguments where the killer loses control of his/her anger and does something really stupid that they later regret. Those killers aren’t really in control of their actions, even less so than this kid, but they are still guilty of murder.

His perception of world may not be the same as other peoples, but he’s very culpable for the crime. At least from what I have heard so far.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-18836426.html

A thoughtful and well presented start for conversation.    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/01/lets-get-this-straight.html (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/01/lets-get-this-straight.html)

It's already spurred an increase in police bureaucracies -- Oklahoma County is creating a "Dignitary Protection Unit" to be the latest cushy specialty squad assignment.  From what im reading, it appears to duplicate the existing OHP bodyguards used by the governor, legislature, football coaches etc.  but it's only tax money.

FWIW, I thought the sheriff's remarks about vitriol were on the money, and Im hoping it was out of conscience and not political gain.

As best I can tell, there's nothing crazier about this fellow than many of the kooky gold-bug types. Kooky, not insane. Besides, sane people kill all the time.

My information comes from a study of every assassin and attempted assassin of federal or prominent state employees between 1949 and 1999: http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/ntac_jfs.pdf

A great start for a conversation within the CjC. What a whiny little turd and apologist that writer is. Seriously, "we are not as popular as Palin or Limbaugh, so our violent rhetoric means less."

I guess this leftist thinks Palin is more important than Obama, who himself has a history of violent rhetoric:

http://thespeechatimeforchoosing.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/did-barack-obamas-violent-rhetoric-inspire-mass-murder-in-arizona/

http://www.therightperspective.org/2011/01/10/a-history-of-obamas-violent-rhetoric-pt-2/

George Will weighs in, as only he can. Now, I know he is not the intellectual titan as joiei's writer, but it is a good read.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/10/AR2011011003685.html

You read that crap?

Jesus, no wonder your online persona is so bent.

FIFY. 

Does this writer not watch Olbermann, Matthews, or Madcow or listen to Garafalo, Franken, et. al.?

Yep, let's lay this mantle all at the feet of conservative pundits because there are none so outrageous on the left.

Nobody listens to them.  They don't have an audience like their yangs do.

No, quido and BB are missing their third partner:

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/al_franken_bunny_web.jpg)

Delicious

Hossy takes some nice pictures.....

Guess I've made someone sad these last few days.  And the admin's also given BB a little slap to boot.  Must be tough being you.

 :D

At least you call me by name.  Your frat brother won't address me at all.  Reminds me of my six-year-old nephew.

Kooky describes people like perrenial mayoral candidates Virginia Jenner, Lawrence Kirkpatrick or even Paul Tay.

If you've been following the first hand accounts of this guy, Loughner was off the hinges.

You are correct in federal assassinations, it's usually to fulfill a political means or interrupt/disrupt prosecution of organized crime. 

The difference is, typical assassinations are not a rampage.  Seldom are innocent by-standers also victims of an assassination attempt.  He may have gone there with the express intent of killing Rep. Giffords.  But based on the setting, situation, and the amount of ammo he brought he was intending to take others with her and apparently was not expecting to survive the attempt based on his writings and messages left for others.  That's completely different from the actions of an assassin.

Except for the fact that documents found at his home indicated he used just that term (assassinate) on a document hand-written with Gifford's name on it.

A lot of it from what a friend told a reporter has to do with a question he posed to Gifford in 2008 at a town hall (I can't find the exact wording of the question, but she either didn't answer it or brushed him off because the question was quite strange).  The friend indicates that was the turning point for his behavioral change.

You accept that drivel from that liberal hack, and you have the balls to question what I read?

Given what I have read today, I think a bigger cracker will be needed.

He, you, Nathan, or I can use the term "assassination" all we want in relation to this shooting.  That still doesn't change the fact this is more of a classic rampage than a classic assassination.  Assassination rarely comes from anger.

Which hack?  I wrote "Nobody listens to them.  They don't have an audience like their yangs do."

Why do you think they BK'd?

I question the crap you read because it seems beneath your intellect.

you read?  I thought you just copy and pasted from Freep.

I agree with that.  Assassinations are PURELY political, like what John Wilkes Booth did to President Lincoln.  I think the jury's still out on the Kennedy assassination, but you know what I mean.  While this, at it's base is political (simply because the target was a congresswoman), it reminds me a little more of the attempted Reagan assassination for the suspect's mental capacity and emotional state of mind.

Tweet from @nbcnightlynews:



How many Beck-efreakiens you think are going to send seriously F'ed up emails to that one?

Probably the same number of "ditto heads" that agree with Rush that this is the Dems fault.

"Let me do this here at the outset, folks, because this is what all of this is really all about.  It is all political.  I was blamed for the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.  We all know that Mark Penn said that an Oklahoma City-type event is what Obama's gonna need if he wants to get the American people back. 

After 9/11 happened, Democrats are running around lamenting that it did not happen on Clinton's watch.  After the Times Square attack happened, Mayor Bloomberg said: It has to be an angry Tea Party person upset at Obamacare.  It's the template.  It's the narrative.  There's never any evidence.  Every projection, every prediction, every association that any act of violence has been made with the conservative right has fallen on emptiness.  There has never been any evidence of it.  To the extent that politics is involved in assassinations, Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK, he was a communist back from Moscow. "

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011011/content/01125106.guest.html (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011011/content/01125106.guest.html)

Calmly walking up to someone and shooting them in the head doesn't make it sound like he was in a rage. Whatever may have happened after that doesn't have much bearing on his attempting to assassinate Giffords.

I'm talking about the motivation being a simmering rage.  I have no idea how pissed off he was at that moment, but apparently he was really pissed off for a long time prior to the incident.  This has more in common with school yard shootings than Oswald shooting Kennedy.  Capiche?

Almost half of assassination attempts since 1949 involved a grievance, whether real or imagined. This incident is actually very typical, both in the identity of the assassin (white, male) and other factors (use of a gun, having a grievance). If he made previous threats against her, that would be unusual. Threats to the target are almost always communicated to someone (usually a friend or relative of the assassin, occasionally to some other public official), but almost never to the subject.

If he was hoping to be killed in the attack, that's also very typical of assassins in the US since 1949. Over half expected/hoped to be killed. Many of them were suicidal. Generally speaking, by the time they get to the point where assassination is a viable choice in their mind, they have decided that exposing whatever injustice it is they seek to remedy is more important than their own survival.

It'll be interesting to see if he ever divulges the reason why he felt the need to kill other members of the crowd. It's possible he thought it would help him escape. It's possible that, like the guy who killed the Unitarians in Tennessee last year, that he decided all those present in the crowd were godless liberals who deserved to die. It's possible that he had a psychotic break after shooting Giffords.

In other news, Rep. Giffords is breathing on her own and moving her arms.

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-giffords-update-20110111,0,1099108.story

Now, back to more important things like who other than the shooter is to blame.

Thanks Guido,  I have been put in my place by the master.    BTW,  my brother in law agrees with every word you share,  sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.   But I forgot,  this board belongs to the posters who only follow the talking points of the right.  I was going to be rude but decided that all of the hate talk that I dislike need not be inflamed by my own personal opinions.   I do try to keep on open mind and read and listen to those who have a different opinion than myself.   Maybe I can learn something.   

Back to the topic of this thread,   I have tried to follow the Arizona legislature,  did they get their rules on protesting at funerals passed,  I sure hope so.  The families do not deserve to be confronted with the Westboro garbage during this time.   My prayers go out for the families and friends of the Tucson Massacre at this time.   

It is on the governors desk and should be signed shortly.

Excellent news.

Does it bother anyone else in the least that the State of Arizona thinks it can dictate in which public places Phelps and his clan may or may not spew their filth?

Compelling post.

This is one I will agree on completely. You can regulate where and when protest occur. As a side note, I wouldn't want to protest something like this in Tucson, I think they may have to worry about more than their tires.

Does the Westboro people have to apply for permits to perform their protests like everyone else?  Or are they special?  Just curious.

Here is the actual bill:

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting-funeral-bill.pdf (http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting-funeral-bill.pdf)

"The bill is patterned after an Ohio law that establishes a 300-foot protection zone around a funeral location from one hour before the event until one hour after it. The Ohio law was recently upheld by the Sixth U.S. Court of Appeals, which made Arizona lawmakers confident their proposal is constitutional."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2011/01/11/20110111arizona-shootings-funeral-bill-passes.html?source=nletter-breakingnews (http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2011/01/11/20110111arizona-shootings-funeral-bill-passes.html?source=nletter-breakingnews)

This is beginning to sound more premeditated than just a deranged person going off.

"TUCSON, AZ - The 22-year-old man accused of trying to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in a deadly shooting rampage wrote "Die, female dog" in a note found at his home, a sheriff's official told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Investigators believe Jared Loughner's handwritten message was a reference to Giffords, Pima County Chief Rick Kastigar said. It was found in a safe alongside other ones, including "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords."

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_central_southern_az/tucson/warning-signs-on-day-of-tucson-shooting (http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_central_southern_az/tucson/warning-signs-on-day-of-tucson-shooting)

This guy gets it! ;D

I think there is a fair representation of both left and right unless you are ready to step into the Pacific Ocean.

My thoughts and prayers are for the victimsn the families of the victims and the citizens of Tucson and Arizona and the United States.   

These jagoffs from Topeka suddenly made me selective about who should and shouldn't have free speech.  I mainly cheer on a law like this because the Westies are doing nothing more than exploiting the amendment with complete absurdity.

Fred won't think he's so clever about the time Satan tells him to bend over for eternity and introduces him to his very gay cellmate.

Dude, it sounded pre-meditated from the git-go, or at least within hours of the shooting.

I hear you, and I feel pretty much the same way. I'm just disgusted by my reaction. Freedom isn't free. Part of the price is freedom for everybody, even if they're sick and twisted like the Phelps clan.

Stay classy, Mama Grizzly.

Remember what the term "Blood Libel" infers....considering Rep. Giffords is Jewish.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/palin-calls-criticism-blood-libel/

I don't think its Palin's "we reload" comments that set someone like this off.  Its the general, if they pass <insert law> then the United States of America will be destroyed.  Day in, day out there is are people on Fox news telling them that they are destroying everything they know.  If the taxes go up 3% it is the end of America.  The world will be destroyed.  Etc Etc.  Just look at what happened to Judges  http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-04/justice/judges.threats_1_marshals-service-federal-judges-report?_s=PM:CRIME (http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-04/justice/judges.threats_1_marshals-service-federal-judges-report?_s=PM:CRIME)

I hadn't heard that term before.  Guess she grew up hearing that.

Where oh where is that pic of Al Gore hanging out with this family.

Probably...I'm sure our resident Palin-droolster will accuse me of PDS.

Whoever wrote that statement for her did a pretty poor job of vetting it.

I was wondering when this BS leftist meme would hit this forum..

Awwww......

She'd have been smarter to do what she was doing...shut her pie-hole...and let it run its course.  She couldn't do that though.

Among many other things, this is something of a test for Ms. Palin.  She's been plastered with a lot of blame for her rhetoric to date, some of which is deserved and some of which (IMO) isn't.  So: if you're a presumptive presidential candidate, how should you react to something like this (ie. unfair treatment in the media) in order to seem like a worthy leader of the American people?  Do you 1) take the high road? or 2) take the "blood libel" road? 

Maybe email Glenn Beck and hope for several loony-assed far right reaching websites to skew reality for you.

I wish Palin would **** and fade into history, but most of the points she made in that little diatribe were on the mark.

They may have been on the mark, but now the 'lamestream media', as she is so fond of referring to them as, will be all over this.  You have to think her staff knew exactly what they were saying with this term.

Pretty much the same thing coming out of MSNBC, Airhead America, Kos, HuffPo, and Michael Moron's "documentaries" from Nov. 2000 to Nov. 2008.

The fear is ramping up:

Tulsa Police Bomb Squad had to blow up something suspicious that was found in the Home Depot downtown.
Apparently there was a piece of PVC pipe with some PVC caps on the ends.
You cant make this stuff up.

Instapundit took the "blood libel" road two days ago.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576071913818696964.html
Where was the outrage then? Fact is that the CjC and the tiny junk folks didn't get their collective panties wadded up until Palin used the phrase. In fact, these dooshes probably never heard this expression until they read about it on a left blog.

She's not an overly bright woman and tact isn't her strongest point.

I admire her spunk and she's a fascinating individual, but she's nothing more than a puppet for the far right who has gotten more polished at spewing their talking points.  Other than her 1/2 term as governor, I've seen nothing about her which seems fit for leadership of this country.  She's a political rock star like President Obama. Perhaps her running her mouth constantly will render her irrelevant in the '12 primaries.

Speaking of, weren't candidates for POTUS '08 starting to announce about this time in 2007?

Are you serious?  I'm picturing some guy snickering as he put caps on a piece of cut PVC then walking out. 

Haha, here come the adhoms from the Palin uberfan.  I wondered how long that would take.

And guess what:  Jonah Goldberg ain't no lefty.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/256946/blood-libel-jonah-goldberg

To be honest, there is a large difference between raising taxes 3% or giving people health care and holding US Citizens in Gitmo/Starting Iraq on bad intel.  Also turns out, they were right.  Both Bush and Paulson said the economy would have collapsed if not for the bailout.  "If AIG collapsed, it would have buckled our financial system and wrought economic havoc on the lives of millions of our citizens," - Paulson  

Oh, and nobody got shot.  

My take on the media:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saJjRTSwRVY[/youtube]

So true.

Hahahaha, so you are saying that everybody should read all opinion pieces on every site.  Where was the outrage two whole days ago on 1 story out of 500 million on the attacks.  Hilarious!  I think Palin's video response probably got more hits than that guys WSJ article.  

You don't agree that partisanship on one side foments partisanship on the other?  Is reality kryptonite to you too?

Again, this shooting doesn't seem to be the result of a partisan issue.  Rather it's looking like at this point the shooter had a personal issue dating back a few years in which he did not like her response to one of his nonsensical rants about what words mean.

Instapundit isn't running for President (or considering it publicly), and Instapundit isn't nearly under the microscope for their rhetoric that she is.  Like it or not, Palin's near the center of this thing.  It may or may not be fair, but how she reacts to this is important, much more so than whatever Instapundit says on a given day.

Are 13 years old?

Why do you lower yourself to childish insults of people who disagree with you?  Circle Jerk Club? Tiny Junk folks?

Really?

Don't worry Mike; he's the king of the ad-hominem.  It's just less than I expected from an attorney.  But not less than I expect from him.

He makes my elementary and high school age nieces and nephews seem like adults.

I believe it, yes.  I guess the first time I was exposed to pure partisanship was Clinton's impeachment.  I guess it kind of snow balled from that.

Here's an insight. Go back to the start of this thread and see which posters resorted to pubescent humor and name calling. And which posters refused to be baited into that negative spiral relying instead on reasonable discussion. Apparently the farther right you are identified on this forum, the more likely you are to be in the previous.

As for Palin, I think Wevus has nailed it. Its her response that counts. Most folks know that people like Palin, Guido and BB expose themselves if given enough time. Just be patient and keep it all in context.

THis should keep "mr. context" busy for a few hours dragging out old posts and using them in novel new ways. I've done my job, thank me later. ;)

Bad mental image there.  :o

You owe me a keyboard, monitor and the lunch that I just lost.

I have seen analysis that indicates that sort of behavior is usually about attempting to establish perceived dominance over others. For some people (and I'm not speaking specifically of guido) the facts aren't as relevant as who plays the dominant role in the discourse. O'Reilly being a great example of that, if you've ever seen his show.

It's amazing what academics will spend their time studying.

Actually, the image of Palin exposing herself is not all that bad to me. Oh, such sweet confusion in my mind. :)

Why don't you cry to the mod about it. To me, tattling is childish.

Really?  Wow.  I'm surprised you have the social skills needed to survive in your chosen profession.

Hahahaha. Noted right wing zealot Alan Dershowitz comments on the "blood libel-gate" and you just won't like it.

http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/01/12/exclusive-alan-dershowitz-defends-sarah-palins-use-of-term-blood-libel/

Here is blog post listing the use of this expression from both sides of the political spectrum.

http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/256955/term-blood-libel-more-common-you-might-think

O/T: MODS, can we have an official Sarah Palin Sucks thread where people who just can't help themselves but rip on a woman that posts her opinions on freakin FACEBOOK can unload on her. That way, a thread where six people were gunned down in the street, including a nine year old girl, can be used for something productive. Here's a wonderful story about a memorial fund for this little girl to give you something to think about.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/01/11/memorial-fund-established-in-honor-of-9-year-old-shooting-victim/

Hey now!!! :)

I got a little free time. Okay, make your case that Sarah Palin is remotely responsible for happened in Arizona. I want specific facts and causal connections/linkage. If you speculate, I will call you out on it. Bring it on.

What for?  Each time she speaks she removes a shovel full.

Perceived reality is what it is.  A large part of the public has decided to buy into the "target painted on the congresswoman" story.

It'll take a while until it blows over.

It will blow over.  She just needs to stay low for a while.

Too bad she didn't listen to you.  I agree, she should have stayed quiet.  I guess it's like challenging a child to stay quiet for a set amount of time.  They never win.

So your answer is "No, I have no evidence". Next.

She never does.  I told her "don't let Bristol use the condom with the staple in it." and then "no, she can't dance worth a crap."

Listen?  Not a damned bit.

So your answer is "help help!! I need to try to explain to anyone who'll listen that Palin is not a throw away that never should've gotten into the public eye in the first place."

She shouldn't've painted "bulls eyes" on people.  It's not a good way to endear yourself to the reasonably minded.

I think the answer really is 'you had your chance to debate that for 12 pages.  Instead you chose childish phraseology and attacks.  Next'.

Let's hope for your clients you argue better than that in a courtroom setting.

Did you advise her on Bristol trying to start a career in radio in Phoenix?

http://www.azcentral.com/community/ahwatukee/articles/2011/01/06/20110106bristol-palin-offered-job-by-phoenix-radio-station-sev.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/ahwatukee/articles/2011/01/06/20110106bristol-palin-offered-job-by-phoenix-radio-station-sev.html)

I gave up.  There's just no reasoning with her.  I know...shocking.

She still plan on a "Point-counterpoint" with the homeless radio dude?

So your evidence is she put a bulls eye on someone. First, please provide the link of Palin putting a bulls eye on Giffords' image.  honestly have not seen that one.

Now,

1. Do you have any evidence that Lounger saw this map?

(http://american-conservativevalues.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/palin-graphic.jpg)
Maybe he was influenced by this map?
(http://american-conservativevalues.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/BP_0405_heartland1.gif)
Or this map:
(http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/daily-kos-bulls-eye-gabrielle-giffords-democrat-targeting-targets-gun-sight-strategy-map-president-bush-enemy-lines-1-sad-hill-news.jpg)

I guess the latter two maps from the dems and leftist kos are "reasonably minded". Very weak tea.

2. Do you have any evidence that Loughner knew Palin had even made that map?

So forgive me folks, but I won't read through 12 pages of silliness to see if my viewpoint is shared.  I'll just spout it instead.

Most of the vigorous obstreperations have nothing to do with the crux of the event.  It's not a gun, right-wing, or "dangerous" language thing, it's a mental health thing.  Clearly the guy is crazy and I'm at a loss as to how anybody can credit a supposedly freshly-deployed, pervasive culture of specifically violent political language with being responsible for his actions.  Since we've decided he pulled the trigger but doesn't bear responsibility for his own actions, let's see if we missed any other influences.  Perhaps the goofy skull shrine in the backyard?  Rejection by academia?  Widespread animal cruelty drove this man to make a statement?  Constant social rejection?  Did we miss anything?

Frankly, it's foolish to assign a rationale to a crazy person's actions.

On the other hand, if this solely right-wing sourced pervasive nasty culture is indeed responsible, perhaps it's just recently revved up to the point that its influence is irresistibly felt by the nutcases around us.  Well, in my fairly short lifetime, I can not remember a time when political ads and "debate" weren't rife with both covert and overt references to violence.  It's simply disingenuous to assert otherwise and I'm at a loss as to how intelligent people can buy into such pablum.

What again does Palin have to do with any of this?  Other than her status as default favorite whipping girl for the media? 

Does anybody know for sure that this man singled out a congresswoman for the "D" after her name?  Has anybody else read this:

"One user on Twitter, Caitie Parker, wrote she went to high school, college, and was in a band with the gunman. She said she hadn’t seen him since 2007.

Parker wrote of Lougher, “As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal and oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.” She also described him as “more left.”

On his now deleted MySpace page, Lougher left a series of rants, including:

* If there’s no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown. There’s no flag in the constitution. Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown. Burn every new and old flag that you see. Burn your flag!”

* “I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed. Watch this protest in reverse! Ask the local police; ‘What’s your illegal activity on duty?’”

* “If you protest the government then there’s a new government from protesting. There’s not a new government from protesting. Thus, you aren’t protesting the government.”"

?

Most of the discussion nationwide is simply a bunch of hooey, politicians engaging in the most ghoulish pandering.  Give me a break.

The real questions that we should be asking have to do with how our society ignored the clear and unpleasant signs from this guy and failed to get him either helped or sequestered.

Sorry, we screamed by your discussion a while ago.  This has become a thread about whether we'd rather Palin would go away or how much of our tongue we'd use to lick her boots.

I agree with you though.  Most of the discussion does seem to be hooey.

Regardless of who has or has not used a given term, you are aware that someone else doing something doesn't make it OK or right for you to do it?

buckeye, in answer to the last bit of your post, we made it nearly impossible to involuntarily commit people to mental health facilities in the 70s and early 80s. Reagan put the final nail in the coffin, but the policy of deinstitutionalization dates back much farther. That said, this guy's rantings sound no nuttier than what I hear from some of my more nutty winger family members.

It's no nuttier than the ever-popular birther bullshit, which is espoused by people on TV, either.

His main hangups appeared to be ones usually associated with the fringe of the tea party, Ron Paul, and Glenn Beck, namely goldbugism, the illegitimate flag, and all that other pseudo-libertarian hooey. I don't say that meaning that he was an adherent of the tea party or listened to Ron Paul or Glenn Beck, I'm only saying that you typically hear that stuff from people who identify with the libertarian right.

Palin should never been part of this discussion to begin with. This thread should have about an attempted assassination and six dead innocents. Folks like Townsend just have to find away, though, to malign a person who had done the same EXACT damned thing as those in his corner.

Still waiting for that evidence connecting Palin to Loughner.

Genius point!!! Now, if we can talk about the absence of outrage by the left over their own using that expression then we will get somewhere.

Jeez, how can you let a mother of what, five, and a grandmother, to live rent free in your heads? Good grief, I have my issues with Obama but I am not obsessed with the guy.

No kidding

(http://www.masonicinfo.com/images/beat_dead_horse.gif)

The dead horse beater has spoken.

I like this one better:

(http://gallery.webwhitenoise.com/albums/userpics/beating-a-dead-horse.gif)

Conan, that vid always makes me laugh.

Anyway, it appears the Palinizing of Sheriff Dupnik (who I personally believe has fueled this "blame the right" but is within his rights to say) has officially begun:


http://www.examiner.com/la-county-libertarian-in-los-angeles/sheriff-dupnik-father-of-inmate-junkie-jailbird-was-honored-by-big-sis-janet

Seems I remember a story about the son of a police chief in south Tulsa County that could do no wrong until he stuffed his Mustang into and apartment building.

Ya kinda are.....

Come on Swake, you know I have given Obama props on several occasions.

True, but he also has been your avatar for over two years.

Point. Swake. ;)

I expected that response from someone.  You may have noticed that I crossed Palin's name off.  ;D

You should fact check before posting bogus stuff.    From  Daily Kos, this is the original post which was photoshopped by someone to throw more gas on the discussion.   http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/25/541568/-2010-will-be-primary-season (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/25/541568/-2010-will-be-primary-season)

I don't see the target that you imply Daily Kos put on their original.  Nor the arrows nor the headline.   

I did fact check it. Here's a source:

http://www.examiner.com/post-partisan-in-national/is-liberal-website-responsible-for-giffords-shooting-photo

Eh, not buying it, man.  :)  You can't seriously believe that far-righters (we'll call them) have mental issues tantamount to whatshisname.  For one thing, that would be a gigantically large instance of dangerous mental illness and I wager that wouldn't play out well in light of the facts.  Would also you assert that only the right harbors such nuttitude?  That is to say, I bet you would.  It's also a bit scary - you're essentially saying that you wouldn't be too surprised to find some of your kin out shooting up the city council.  In fact, "no nuttier" suggests said kin might be even farther afield...

In any case, one never knows what kinds of things a crazy person will take to, sometimes it's something that seems entirely innocuous to the rest of us.  That really gets back to my point - a person can't legitimately say that Glenn Beck's radio show was all the catalyst necessary to set that guy off.  For one thing, nobody has complete enough information about him to say.  Well, not in any seriously credible way.

Here's a sample of the tortured logic out there:
"Mark Pitcavage, director of investigative research at the Anti-Defamation League said his [Loughner's] writings were so formless that tying them to any coherent philosophy was impossible.

"Most of it is entirely unrelated to any ideology at all," he said.

Potok agreed on his website that Loughner was most likely influenced by ideas around him, rather than perpetrating a philosophy of his own.

"But at the same time, I think you can find clues to some of the ideas that have influenced him, and I think many of them are clearly coming from the extreme right."
"

Wait, what?  Did a grown person in a position of responsibility really let that get into print?  Good Lord...

Maybe this is all to say that one crazy person's actions do not define the nature of whatever philosophy/political belief one may be able to (however tenuously) link with them.  That tenuous linking is merely convenient fodder for those seeking any available lump of poo to hurl.  Not very convincing and it's a shame that's getting so much traction.  What's that logical fallacy that involves only observing things in a light that bolsters one's own suppositions?

It is a horrible tragedy.  It's not the gun's fault, it's not the magazine (NOT CLIP)'s fault, it's not even the loathsome Stormfront forum's fault (or Bush's), it is the ultimately inexplicable action of an insane person.  How do we address the root of the event instead of festering over all this other stuff that's really just moot?

Shame about the way mental illness is handled.  Is there anyplace or was there anytime when it was addressed effectively?  Seems like we haven't come all that far from "village idiot" days in some regards.

I do in fact believe that most wingnuts on both sides of the spectrum do in fact hold batsh_tinsane ideas. This is because they tell me these things. The lefties think there's some vast right wing conspiracy controlling the world in general and the US in particular. (there is a vast right wing conspiracy, even one larger than the corresponding left wing conspiracy, but it's not sinister as the crazies think; it's a well organized network of think tanks churning out nonfactual position papers on cue and a cadre of media personalities to spread them..the left has also begun to take up this tactic in the last decade, annoyingly enough) The righties think that Obama was born in Kenya, the income tax isn't legitimate, and that the gold fringe on some flags actually means something. Oh, and the FEMA concentration camps. Can't forget about those.

Statistically speaking, most assassins are not in fact insane. Calling this guy insane without evidence to back it up is just silly. Having kooky ideas about the way the world works is not evidence of insanity, it's evidence of being a kook. Loughner very likely had a logical thought process behind his actions, though his "facts" and assumptions were all wrong.

I'm wondering if many of these mass killers think they're trapped by circumstances/businesses/politics/or little green men, and there's no way out short of killing.  It's much like the suicide-by-cop scenario, where someone fires at the police in the hope that they'll shoot back and kill him.  And there's undoubtedly an element of rage when someone decides to not only kill himself, but take as many others out as well.  And I keep using the pronoun 'him' because it's rare for a woman to do something like this, but I do not know why.

BTW, I tried to change the subject header without success.

Nobody said she was responsible on here I don't think.  Doesn't mean you can't hold people accountable for what they do.

Crazy is as crazy does, I guess. Some people are simply out of phase with the world around them. No doubt people thought Einstein, Nostradamas, Galileo and Tesla were crazy at the time. Not that this guy rates with them.

Nothing has been said about what medications (legal) he may have been using either. By the silly look on his face, I would bet he was receiving some sort of medication. Anyone who has had experience with someone plagued with deep depression, combined with narcissism, anti-depressants, street drugs and a feeling of rejection by his peers, knows it is a dangerous combination. That is an induced crazy. Their actions are not necessarily related to rage, often it is simply a lack of emotion whatsoever. They are deadened to the world. In that mental state one doesn't even perceive another being as real. They are cardboard figures of no importance or gravity. That is why they can easily kill women, children and animals without hesitation. Its like a video game to them.

Given the chance he would have killed any politician of any stripe. This one was accessible and the people around her might as well have been furniture.

I listened to the Memorial Service tonight. All speakers did well.

It was good. I think it helped close some wounds and helped Americans reflect on the tragedy.

Interestingly, women are not terribly rare in the population of attempted assassins. 40% or so since 1949, IIRC, so less common than male attackers/approachers, but not rare. They're more likely to work in a group, though. What is rare is nonwhites. Only 25% of the attacks/approaches with a weapon between 1949 and 1999 had a nonwhite perpetrator.

The rest of your post is pretty much spot on, though. They often feel forced into the circumstance, sometimes for reasons that actually exist and sometimes for reasons that are 100% delusion. Only about a third are attempting suicide-by-cop, though. They're more often seeking fame (although that's less common in assassinations of political figures), attention for a cause, or resolution of a specific grievance against the target.

waterboy, most criminals have some sort of substance abuse problem, but assassins seem to have similar substance abuse issues as the general population. Most assassins/attempted assassins don't have prior criminal records, either. Especially the ones that go after government officials.

This case is unusual in that he followed up his seemingly calm "normal" (for assassins) assassination by shooting members of the crowd. That said, I seem to recall reading that he wasn't terribly agitated once he was subdued, although he did struggle for a short while before calmly accepting that he wasn't getting away.

Basically, this guy is a fairly typical assassin in most ways and the case is fairly typical as far as these things go, at least based on what we presently know.

Like these people that are trying to keep Palin accountable?

NSFW

http://vimeo.com/18733744

Depends on what the meaning of "crazy" is.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/13/2011-01-13_this_is_my_genocide_school_creepy_gunmans_insane_rants.html

That's the kind of stuff I'd call crazy.  Markedly irrational.

This is the very valid thought that's left behind all the histrionics.

I see and converse with what most people would call "crazy" every day. Some are actually visiting from supervised living environments. Hardly any of them are threatening. Some are angry, some are irritated, usually discheveled and some are quite demanding. I have names for them (mr. peach, NRA guy, toothless guy, the twins, etc.) Almost all of them love to rant about some percieved ill towards them or about society. They seem to seek me out and that's okay, cause I figure some day its the basis of a book or movie!

But to your point, truth is these people would be considered dangerous crazy if they were dropped off 5 miles South in the suburbs. We are just used to them.

A yardstick for lunatics...one point of view. (bonus points for the artist and date)

Sounds entertaining.  Are they hiring, I'd like to have it as a second job just for the social inerraction.  I deal more in the construction and engineering realm and they are largely boring  ;)

If you'd like to meet an interesting cross-section of people as the basis for writing a book, I highly recommend working in any retail environment.  You'll meet grifters, con-men, thieves, demanding and entitled brats, wackos, nymphos, and many, many more.

I've done that, and I worked in a psychiatric hospital for a few years.  We had one genuine sociopath, and I truly hope that none of us ever encounter another one.  In an earlier time, he would have been burned at the stake.  The guy was soulless and devoid of emotion.  He could cut your throat and walk away singing.  He was the only patient that frightened me.

Strawberry Alarmclock  1967 (ish)

They are always hiring. Go through people real fast. Boring pays better too. ;)

Quite true. Now if I could just find the patience to write for money instead of for therapy.

!!!Yes!!! They had a funny little movie thingie they played on Laugh-In in '67 to go along with the song. Early music video.

Too bad one has to deal with the grifters, con men, thieves, brats, etc. just to get to be around the nymphos.

Now this is how a conservative public figure should deal with the leftist defamation that those on the right that espoused "vitriolic speech" somehow caused the Tucson shooting:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SaK0EsJyqhM[/youtube]

One of Loughner's shooting victims shows up at a town hall meeting and threatens Tea Party member. Gets arrested and will be charged.

http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=13849741

Sweet. Just keeps getting weirder.

One of those shot, actually went to Loughner's parents to assure them he didn't hold them responsible for their son's actions.

One of the women shot, publicly spoke of forgiving him and instead holds a community that didn't see the signs or act on them responsible. Okay.....

One of the guys who tackled him had a Ruger in his pocket but decided not to pull it because he feared the others might think he was also a shooter. Smart thinking.

Any surprise that it's now reported that Phoenix is losing its dominance as one of the hot spots for young people to move to?

I wonder if it is too early to assign blame to those that blamed the right wing/tea party vitriol for Fuller's actions.

Sorry, I cannot resist posting the way left Media Matters story about Fuller.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201101140044

Schadenfreude.

The murdered little girl's family donated her organs to a Boston girl.

http://www.kpho.com/news/26508395/detail.html

Triumph of this family's human spirit in a time of what could only be unimaginable grief.

JFC, talk about a hate-baiting moonbat lib.

I understand he's one of the wounded, but he's engaging precisely in what he's accusing Beck, Palin, Faux, etc. of.

He should be condemmed for his hateful words just like he accuses others of spewing hate.

I do like this one quote from him..."We've got a surplus of demented dingbats, wackos."

Kettle, meet pot.

He does make a point regards to the surplus.  Maybe not so much though, as the ease with which global communication can be had by the common man (internet..hell, even internet radio can be done by any schmoe with a broadband connection) has increased over the last three decades.

Doesn't absolve this moonbat from responsibility at all, though.

And the cynic in me asks: "There are people who aren't organ donors?"

I have to admit FMC and I were gagging on the news reports from this aspect of the event last night.  I think it's great the family was good with donating her organs, don't get me wrong.  But....

They were reporting on how the girl was so giving and wanted someone to benefit from her.  Okay folks, that just sounds like news being tarted up in drama to me.  What nine year old has even remotely considered the possibility of donating their organs?  I simply get irrirated with the lengths the media goes to peddle hyperbole as news.

+1

In this case, where a little girl was gunned down in the street, the fact that her family made the decision to think about another when they are suffering perhaps the worst possible pain is newsworthy. Perhaps the media was also trying to show some kind of a silver lining in this horrific story.

 It reminds me of the family touring Italy when someone shot and killed their young son, and they thought of saving others and donated his organs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Green

After being on vacation for 7 wonderful days I come home, pop up the forums and I read....A few people here wrote what his was really about. People died, others hurt and recovering. More than one family has had their hearts torn out and one very disturbed man is in custody.

The remainder of you that decided to turn this into what it has become, political, should be ashamed. Insulting each other? CjC?? Really?

That 9 year old little girl had more class in her little pinky toe than all of you put together in your whole miserable lives. That man showed more love for his wife by laying down his own for her than I think any of you can imagine. But still you write crap over and over. Well please continue. For myself I will keep the families in my thoughts for a very long time instead.

We missed you too!

To clarify, the story we were listening to made it sound like this little girl had made a conscious decison and discussed it with her parents at length at some point.  Not calling BS on the girl or family but I'm seriously calling BS on the media which is gleefully profiting from such sicko journalism and they know it.  That's why they sensationalize it so much.  I'm truly sickened by it.

(http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/spanking.jpg)

Some of us are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. We did get more than a little acrimonious, though, and for that we all should be at least a little ashamed.

Rep. Giffords stands for the first time.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/19/giffords-stands-time-ariz-shooting/#ixzz1BXbVR4Fq

Weapons Grade Stupidity. "Hey, let's attack the parents of the surgeon treating Rep. Giffords for being Teabaggers"

http://www.page2live.com/2011/01/18/palm-beach-folks-of-giffords-doc-supported-tea-partier-christine-odonnell/?cxntlid=cmg_cntnt_rss

JFC, that is some stupid pap.  Why on earth are people digging into the background of her surgeon's family?  Really?  Yeah divisiveness and pettiness is the sole pervue of conservatives.  I guess whatever it takes to take the focus off your own bitterness and hateful rhetoric.

OK, how about this?  Someone already calling for her to vacate her seat?  Really?

http://theloop21.com/politics/who-controls-rep-giffords-seat-her-or-the-people-arizona

I don't consider myself an unfeeling bastard but I'm starting to feel the play-by-play on her recovery is getting out of hand.

I haven't watched the news in a week, just because I knew this would happen.  Leave the woman and her husband to their privacy.

CNN was showing the outside of her plane before takeoff and then after landing in Houston. 

Between that, the litigious texting fountain lady,and the kidnapped infant turned 23 year old family finde ,here was nothing else on the news.

And now here's someone that thinks Giffords should not be on the Armed Services Committee. What? She's dem? Nevermind.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/01/25/rep-loretta-sanchez-sparks-outrage-from-fellow-democrats-with-proposal-to-boot-giffords-from-armed-services-committee/

You uncaring bastard.

I hear you, I'm so tired of news as entertainment, so I vote with my remote.  I wish they would quit sensationalizing the news so the Springer crowd would go back to watching Springer instead of CNN.

Not sure how a sitting Congresswoman who survived a very public assassination attempt by point blank gunshot wound to the head would attract only the Springer crowd. I mean, I am by no means a democrat and a "Springer" fan, but I do believe Giffords survival was nothing short of miracle.

It's not the event, but the fact that the media seems to think they need to cover every little detail about everything remotely connected to it, and nothing but that.  Next thing you know, they are going to have her hair stylest in an interview telling what she really thought of her dog.

I am with guido on this one. Her recovery is a miracle.

I hope she completely recovers and runs for McCain's Senate seat.

I never heard of her before the shooting, but her (and her husband) are remarkable and really fit the definition of hero.

We need all the heroes we can get.

Was that really necessary?  Is it a condition required for you to wish for her full recovery?

I've followed her for a while on Twitter.  She's a level-headed common sense Democrat.  Plays well with others.

Thank you, that was exactly where I was going with that.  I'm glad you read my writing so well.  ;)

I wasn't speaking to the Giffords incident in particular.  Simply beating stories into the ground to the point of nausea.

Being the son of a mother who had received 2+ years of therapy for a brain injury (subdural hematoma is not quite the same as a gunshot wound) they are in for a rollercoaster ride.  My mother is limited on her left side but is the strongest woman I've ever known.  The doctors, at the outset of her injury told her she'd never walk again.  While she doesn't walk like you or I (it takes her a bit to get where she's going) she's walking.  I saw that doctor about 5 years ago (this happened in 1984) and told him to get stuffed (ok, that's being nice).  Worst bedside manner of any doctor I've ever seen.

Prayers go with the family.

I also echo Conan and cust's sentiments.  Quit reporting on every little detail and let the family to their privacy.  Having to deal with the press is more than they need to handle right now.

Another Arizona Massacre threatened?



http://www.wben.com/Emails-Threaten-Attack-on-New-York-Lawmakers/9536093

Giffords looks terrific. Thanking God for her recovery.

(http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/06/12/112824-gabrielle-giffords.jpg)

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/56762.html

Meanwhile...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/01/county-gop-in-giffords-district-raffles-handgun/?on.cnn=1 (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/01/county-gop-in-giffords-district-raffles-handgun/?on.cnn=1)

County GOP in Giffords' district raffles handgun

Poor taste and total disconnect with the locals.  Really reinforces my desire to bolt the GOP completely, but closed primaries keep me here...

As keeps me in the (D) column.  My brother and I were discussing this last night.  He's a little more conservative than I am, and used to be a big Bill'O fan.  Not any more.  He thinks we should abolish parties entirely.  I cannot say I haven't thought that out loud myself.

We seem hopelessly entrenched in a two party, us vs them, scenario. Its reflected in the rest of our society too at all levels. Ford or Chevy. Dog or cat. Right or left. Psychology/Psychiatry. Nature/Nurture. Mac/PC. And its been that way a long time. Anyone who is pragmatic enough or flexible enough to find benefit from both sides is hated by both and considered weak or innefective at best. That leaves the extremists to control the reins of the parties. They use singular issues to do so: guns, religion, race etc. Real people have beliefs and interests that just don't fit into one side or the other and thus lose interest in the whole process.

 Perhaps that is driven by the spread out geographic nature of our country. It seems the easy answer is multiple parties. If we were to open up the process to multiple parties that formed alliances with each other it would get pretty complicated with such a wide, diverse nation. We're hampered by a poorly educated electorate as well. Liberals in San Francisco have different issues than a liberal from Tulsa. Arizona Republicans certainly see the world differently than Republicans in Oklahoma. It seems unworkable. 

England can do it because of the compact size of their nation. They are comfortable with alliances because of their density and proximity to other countries. Keep in mind that when this system was devised, we were but 13 colonies butted up against each other pretty much along the coast.

I want to join the Plaid Cymru Party of Wales  ;)

See? i can't join that party. I have Welsh ancestry but...I hate plaid! Never heard of them but knowing you its something satirically funny. I'll look it up.

Our family on my mother's side has continuously owned and resided in Bodorgan Castle (more of a manor really) in Wales since the 5th century. Myricks. The people are clever, contrary and dedicated to their heritage. Any female of the brood who takes on a different last name must leave the manor. 

You won't like their party though. Socialist, nationalist and you'll have to learn Welsh.

Irish.  Castle Townshend in Southern Ireland near Skibbereen.  Met my distant cousins this last Spring.  Strange ducks.  Beautiful country.

Should we find a Brit and take his wallet?

Where's Jamie Jamieson?

I'm Welsh, though I don't have enough pygmy features to prove it other than my really short feet.  ;D 

We mixed our family with the Irish, English, French, Indian and Nordic till we finally got some height to go with our breadth.

Belgian mixed in so I can make really good waffles and corned beef.

Scottish, French, Germanic.  But 1/16 Cherokee Indian as well.  My great-great grandmother was a full blood Cherokee Indian.  Imagine that.  I'm not even on the Dawe's...don't really care to be, either.

Mother's maiden name is Wallace.  Yes, I have found out we are directly descended from William Wallace

Freedom

Slightly on topic, gun sales in AZ going at record pace:




http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/07/15/20110715arizona-guns-special-report-retail.html (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/07/15/20110715arizona-guns-special-report-retail.html)

Apparently all you guys are wanting the ability to shoot back.

How about some really tasty beer?

Goes without sayin'.

Even if I was still there I doubt I would buy one.

Available in TX, and coming soon to KS and MO:

http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/brew/obsidian-stout (http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/brew/obsidian-stout)

and my other favorite now:

http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/brew/black-butte-porter (http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/brew/black-butte-porter)

Townsend, does the Belgian part of you enjoy Stella Artois? Even though its made in St.Louis, I think, its pretty good stuff.

My bad...those guys shooting back then.

Sure.  I think it's good beer.  When my wife has had a couple she'd yell out "STELLA".  THat makes her enjoy that particular beer more than many others.

Oklahoma's already gone through that "Obama's gonna' take your guns!" stuff. Its a great marketing ploy. I worked with a young lady two years ago who told me that Obama wasn't going to restrict gun sales, he was just going to restrict the bullets. Nice spin.

During times with a Republican president they rely on "Buy your guns before Congress changes the law!". Clever guys.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1A0p0F_iH8[/youtube]

Does she do a really great Brando when she does that?

A very short, thin, effeminate, bad acting Brando with a girly voice??  Yes, she's wonderful at it.

She does not do butch very well, does she?

20 years of lessons from Sandra Bernhard might get her to understand rolled up sleaves on a tshirt.

Just because I never have an appropriate opening to brag, I have recently found out that I am a direct descendant of William the Conqueror.  Yeah, I shouldn't have told the kids that one.

Recent Giffords pic:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/307804_10150325126042194_96491952193_8078518_1777794696_n.jpg)

Awesome.

It is incredible. A view into the future of modern medicine and the miracles it may produce using biosurgery compounds. Unfortunately, the FDA is dragging it's feet on approval of certain meds for trauma and severe injury. There are wound care products coming that don't require the FDA 3 phase testing to be utilized. I wonder what the doctors did for Gabe because it is wonderful.

Can't wait to read the book.

Aside from her being a real miracle, these are interesting times we live in for medicine.  Uh, even though we have the "crappiest health care system in the world".  ::)

Go Gabby!

If you missed the Giffords interview last night, here is a clip.

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/11/15/feelgood-video-of-the-day-giffords-speaks/

She is one bad@ss lady. I'd vote for her just because of her toughness. Screw politics.

If you were one of the 50 million uninsured in this country, and were stuck choosing between the emergency room and bankruptcy, you might think differently.... if I were still an opera singer at the time I got colon cancer, I'd be DEAD today... period.  end of story.

It doesn't matter how great the healthcare system is in this country if you don't have access to it....

I have a guy who rented a room from me who likes to go to River Spirit and gamble.... a worker there must've had to go to the emergency room and got his address, because I'm getting bills at my address for him...  of course, the guy's on facebook, is a worker at a casino that takes in lotsa money, but has to resort to falsifying his address to avoid medical bills....

What are you rethuglicans gonna do, send him to jail?... ruin his credit for life?  maybe you insist he dies?

ALL Americans deserve the healthcare options that members of congress enjoy.  ALL of them.

^^^^
Ah, another pity party post from our resident victim.

You were an OPERA singer?

Maybe he was.  I wonder if he did very many "Dirty Jobs" like a well known opera singer turned TV star and Ford products promoter.

Miraculous and fantastic!!

Not crappiest - just number 38.

Now, if it were only available to everyone else....

Even you, with your very high level, upper 99%er insurance would get nowhere near the care she has received.

And we could have been about 8 years further along toward that vision without the interference of government in the medical research process...

Mike Rowe was an opera singer?

For a while.  He said he quit because he sucked.

Oh, I thought that was only guys who know a lot of Broadway show tunes.

You mean like "One", "All that Jazz", "Sound of Music", "If I were a Rich Man", "Memory", "Hello Dolly", "Oklahoma",...?  How many ya know?

Are you a great dancer too?

Like you don't know.

Gentlemen, gentlemen..please...get a room!

 ;D

Sassy pants all be denyin'...like he don't know!

I really like Gabby and her spirit. Again, screw politics.


http://news.yahoo.com/giffords-serves-turkey-tucson-air-191744145.html