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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: bokworker on August 04, 2010, 09:17:06 am



Title: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: bokworker on August 04, 2010, 09:17:06 am
I wasn't sure where to put this but came across this article in today's WSJ. Mr Kaiser has consistently been one of the top philanthropists in the country but made his intentions known in a more formal way by signing this pledge. Tulsa is extremely lucky to have a person like Mr Kaiser..


http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/08/04/the-gates-buffett-giving-pledge-the-full-list-of-donors/


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: we vs us on August 04, 2010, 09:32:48 am
Good stuff.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Hoss on August 04, 2010, 09:50:30 am
Good stuff.

Too bad FB got banned.  I bet his head is exploding reading this but unable to respond.  LOLZ...


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: dsjeffries on August 04, 2010, 09:51:30 am
You can click on each name to read their letters which declare why they are dedicated to giving back. Here is Kaiser's letter, which gives us a little more insight into our very private philanthropist:



I suppose I arrived at my charitable commitment largely through guilt. I recognized early on, that my good fortune was not due to superior personal character or initiative so much as it was to dumb luck. I was blessed to be born in an advanced society with caring parents. So, I had the advantage of both genetics (winning the "ovarian lottery") and upbringing. As I looked around at those who did not have these advantages, it became clear to me that I had a moral obligation to direct my resources to help right that balance.

America's "social contract" is equal opportunity. It is the most fundamental principle in our founding documents and it is what originally distinguished us from the old Europe. Yet, we have failed in achieving that seminal goal; in fact, we have lost ground in recent years. Another distinctly American principle is a shared partnership between the public and private sectors to foster the public good. So, if the democratically-directed public sector is shirking, to some degree, its responsibility to level the playing field, more of that role must shift to the private sector.

As I addressed my charitable purposes, all of this seemed pretty clear: I was only peripherally responsible for my own good fortune; I was morally duty bound to help those left behind by the accident of birth; America's root principle was equal opportunity but we were far from achieving it. Then I had to drill down to identify the charitable purposes most likely to right that wrong.

The discoveries of stem cell research and brain development in recent years provided some guidance for me. Though almost all of us grew up believing in the concept of equal opportunity, most of us simultaneously carried the unspoken and inconsistent "dirty little secret" that genetics drove much of accomplishment so that equality was not achievable. What the new research seemed to suggest, however, was that brain cells were functionally unformed at birth and that only through the communication among them - driven by trial and error interpretation of sensory stimulation shortly after birth - did our cognitive and social/emotional skills develop. As I sometimes joke, I remember vividly that place before birth as being warm, wet, dark...and boring. Then, suddenly, as I emerged, I was bombarded with sensory overload and had to interpret all of that strange stimulus. Most of that interpretation takes place by age three; after that, we can modify our destiny but it is a lot harder.

No child is responsible for the circumstances of her birth and should not be punished for it in this life. (I will leave the question of second chances to other pulpits.) I have therefore developed my charitable focus around the concept of providing the greatest opportunity for self fulfillment for each child, focusing on those who arrive in the least advantaged circumstances. (A purer focus would be in areas of much greater disadvantage in the world where fewer dollars accomplish more. I honor the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation's commitment to the principle that "every life has equal value" but will leave my justification for a primarily American focus to another dissertation.) That governing concept has led us to those initiatives which attempt to reverse the  generational cycle of poverty, especially for very young children and their families: prenatal healthcare; early learning and development for at-risk kids, birth to three; family healthcare; parenting training; job and income assistance for families with young children; operating a robust program to provide alternatives to incarceration for mothers who have committed non-violent crimes, et cetera.

These efforts focus most heavily on the causes of poverty but we also dedicate resources to the symptoms, especially in these difficult times and in our relatively poor part of the country - food, clothing, shelter, healthcare and civic projects that promote inclusiveness and vibrancy. We generate a mix of projects, some of which are leading edge and more that import best practices from the greater creativity and experience of others. We attempt to leverage other resources, public and private, by our example. We try not to let a budget drive our expenditures but rather pursue those efforts through which we can make a true difference at an appropriate cost, whether less than or more than our targeted allocation. We remain lean in our central organization and partner with the leading practitioners in our fields of endeavor. We tend to direct our purposes and carefully monitor targeted results on a contemporaneous basis rather than scattering gifts and trusting to retrospective general narratives of success from the beneficiaries. All in all, it is an intoxicating and yet frustrating journey, led by an extraordinarily committed and talented cadre of leaders.

Now that I have told you far more than you wanted to know about how I arrived at my charitable commitment and direction, it is time to make the pledge: I am entranced by Warren's and Bill's visionary appeal to those who have accumulated unconscionable resources, to dedicate at least half of them back to purposes more useful than dynastic perpetuation. My family is very well provided for and they join me in my intention to devote virtually all of my financial resources to the same general charitable purposes I have pursued in life, better informed in specifics by our experience and the experience of others. If enough acolytes follow Bill's and Warren's example, then maybe we will more closely approach the ideal of equal opportunity throughout the United States and the world.

George B. Kaiser


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: bokworker on August 04, 2010, 09:51:56 am
Too bad FB got banned.  I bet his head is exploding reading this but unable to respond.  LOLZ...

Channeling FB...."yeah but what about all the strings attached?"


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: bokworker on August 04, 2010, 09:55:42 am
Excellent letter from Mr Kaiser. While humble, the real value of what Mr Kaiser has done is take his "ovarian lottery" winners status and multiply it many times over. Hard work and intelligence on his part while realizing the advantages he had to start with. And I suspect that his total giving will be well in excess of half of what he has earned and accumulated.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Hoss on August 04, 2010, 09:57:42 am
Channeling FB...."yeah but what about all the strings attached?"

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=13943.msg140273#msg140273

I always loved his references to "Herr. Kaiser".... LOL.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Conan71 on August 04, 2010, 10:05:59 am
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=13943.msg140273#msg140273

I always loved his references to "Herr. Kaiser".... LOL.

Don't you know he could have added something about Jewish guilt to the mix?

Personally, I far prefer people like Mr. Kaiser determining where his wealth goes than government bureaucrats deciding.  I'm quite certain Ken Levitt and others at the KFF are making lives far better than the government ever would if they had confiscated more of his wealth via taxes.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: nathanm on August 04, 2010, 11:52:06 am
I'm quite certain Ken Levitt and others at the KFF are making lives far better than the government ever would if they had confiscated more of his wealth via taxes.
Funny that he wrote that government is shirking its duty. It's an interesting juxtaposition.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Conan71 on August 04, 2010, 02:09:07 pm
Funny that he wrote that government is shirking its duty. It's an interesting juxtaposition.

Until the last century, charity was not one of the primary functions of government.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: SXSW on August 06, 2010, 01:43:46 pm
I know his main concern is early childhood education, but one of the best things Mr. Kaiser could do for Tulsa is to donate to our local universities, especially TU.  I've said it before but I think building up TU to be a larger part of Tulsa is very important to the growth of this city (see my threads in the Planning forum), especially research and graduate programs.  Kaiser has already given $50 million to OU to start their School of Community Medicine in Tulsa.  I hope he will donate more when OU and TU create a full medical school in Tulsa, and I hope they can somehow use the downtown hospital as their 'home base' and share facilities with OSU's program there.  

I also know that the river and parks are important to him.  If he decides to give more to trails/parks I would hope that would involve extending the new dual jog/bike trails south of 71st Street to the Jenks bridge and extending the west bank trail south of Turkey Mountain to connect to the trails at Riverwalk Crossing.  That and a larger, nicer festival park that encompasses the Mid-Continent concrete plant on the west bank.   ;D


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 15, 2017, 08:53:13 am
I wasn't sure where to put this, but this thread seems appropriate. George Kaiser essentially donating Bank of Oklahoma to Tulsa is a huge deal. The George Kaiser Family Foundation which has already done so much will have the majority shares of BOK plus much more.

It is hard to imagine how much difference they will be able to make with revenue going from in the tens of millions a few years ago (before the Gathering Place) up to hundreds of millions a year in perpetuity (hopefully).

The Gathering Place is a massive endeavor that has increased what GKFF has spent to about $200 million per year, but that level of spending was only temporary and not sustainable with their current level of endowment. However, with 90% of George Kaiser's wealth being donated to the GKFF, they could potentially spend $280 million per year! That would be like building a new Gathering Place every year or building about 30 Guthrie Greens or about 25 renovations on the scale of the Ford & Fox buildings on Main. Obviously, they will not be focusing on buildings or just economic development, and most of the revenue will likely go to infant/health/education, but based on what they've done for the Brady District, there could be many more great developments ahead.

Quote
George Kaiser plans for his foundation's future with a gift only he can give: Oklahoma's biggest bank


Tulsa has seen just a small fraction of George Kaiser’s fortune. Yet he has a long-range vision of how the George Kaiser Family Foundation will spend its last dollar.

His namesake philanthropic organization continues to spend tens of millions of dollars each year on early childhood education, reducing female incarceration, economic development and, of course, that two-thirds-finished park on the Arkansas River. The foundation, according to executives and tax filings, has spent about $1 billion.

There are billions more left for the oilman and banker to give away. And still Kaiser is thinking about the end, about what will happen to the Bank of Oklahoma — the bank he bought because he worried about what the city and state would look like without it. He has pondered what he hopes his fortune will accomplish and come up with a strategy to achieve it, a plan that will last long after he has gone on, as he says, “to one of those two unknowable places.”

Kaiser’s plan will eventually give a nonprofit, the George Kaiser Family Foundation, control of Oklahoma’s largest bank. The bank is a corporate entity that has thousands of employees and about $32 billion in assets.

The transfer itself is part of the unwinding of an economic engine that will leave the foundation, an institution dedicated to breaking the cycle of poverty in Tulsa, even larger than it already is. It’s part of Kaiser’s promise to give away the majority of his wealth — the Giving Pledge. Unlike some billionaires who took the pledge, Kaiser’s philanthropic focus is almost entirely local.

Foundation’s future
He could still change his mind, but Kaiser, 75, doesn’t plan on selling his controlling interest in BOK Financial, the Bank of Oklahoma’s parent company.

He told the Tulsa World that he and his namesake foundation have designed “a plan to avoid the necessity of selling a controlling position in BOKF because of the importance of the bank in supporting Oklahoma small and medium-size businesses.”

How the transfer will take shape is still being worked out with regulators, but it would likely take place through his estate after Kaiser’s death.

The bank’s stock forms the core of Kaiser’s remaining fortune. His 61 percent stake was worth $3.2 billion at close of trading Friday. There’s about $7.8 billion, according to Forbes, left of his personal fortune.

Kaiser has given the George Kaiser Family Foundation more than $4 billion in cash, stock and stakes in businesses, according to the foundation’s annual tax filings with the IRS.

He himself is mum on how much there is to give away, saying the foundation will receive “the balance” of his remaining personal assets when he dies.

“The amount depends upon when that day is and how successful I am in enhancing or dissipating the assets in the meantime,” Kaiser said in an email. “I plan to keep flying coach, shopping at Wal-Mart and buying Joseph A. Bank suits to help preserve the ultimate foundation corpus.”

Business relationship
The foundation is a bank customer.

The foundation’s IRS Form 990 for 2015, the latest year available, shows that it had a $206 million line of credit from BOKF and a smaller loan for $2.3 million for work in the Brady Arts District. In 2013, there was a loan for $55 million, that year’s filing showed.

The documents describe the loans as “arms-length transactions,” which means the loans are at market rates, giving the bank, mostly owned by Kaiser, the ability to make revenue off philanthropic efforts.

Kaiser said loans from BOKF to him are typically at higher rates than loans he has from other banks.

However, GKFF is among several customer relationships BOKF has with members of its board and shareholders, including Kaiser. If properly disclosed, they aren’t unusual or illegal. They are closely regulated by the Office of the Comptroller of Currency.

BOKF CEO Steve Bradshaw said: “That’s a significant relationship. The foundation is a large entity here in Tulsa. … We’re going to try to earn our fair share, which we consider to be nearly 100 percent of any great relationship that’s available to us. We compete for that. GKFF certainly doesn’t do all their business with us.”

The relationship is a two-way street. BOKF, according to SEC filings, purchased $7.5 million worth of historic tax credits from the foundation in 2016 — which were used to offset the company’s state income tax liability in 2016 — and in 2017.

Following the money
The relationship between BOKF and the foundation is part of a larger pattern of Kaiser’s for-profit enterprises interacting with the George Kaiser Family Foundation — a pattern that has persisted despite media scrutiny.

The foundation itself is a complex entity whose holdings are a window into Kaiser’s own, tax filings show.

At the end of 2015, the foundation, like Kaiser, owned a stake in Memjet Holdings LTD, a San Diego-based printing company; a solar energy company; and The Oil Center buildings in downtown Oklahoma City. It also owns a ship used by Kaiser’s natural gas importing company, Excelerate Energy. And more than 4 percent of BOK Financial, per SEC filings.

The two are legally separate. Kaiser can’t appoint a majority of the voting power to the foundation’s board, and once Kaiser has contributed something to the foundation, it can never revert back to him.

However, the slow growth of the foundation’s giving, its legal structure and the failure of one of its government-financed investments, Solyndra, have attracted scrutiny over the past decade.

As an example of how the foundation invested alongside Kaiser, Bloomberg reported in 2013 that the foundation owned a supertanker called the Excellence, which is among Excelerate Energy’s fleet.

Kaiser co-owned Excelerate at the time and now wholly controls the company, according to its website.

The Bloomberg report came eight years after The New York Times used GKFF as an example of how supporting organizations — the type of nonprofit that the foundation is — give tax benefits to those who endow them without being required to give away a certain amount of their assets every year, unlike private foundations.

The Times reported in 2005 that the foundation had given away only $3.4 million to charitable causes.

Fred Dorwart, Kaiser’s longtime attorney and friend and a GKFF board member, told the Times that Kaiser wanted to help fund a safety net for the Tulsa region, beautify Tulsa and have a program for disadvantaged children.

That story came at a time early in Kaiser’s giving — the first Educare early childhood education facility was being planned. The foundation’s giving would soon ramp up into the tens of millions, then the hundreds. All around Tulsa, what Dorwart described is coming to fruition.

Financial philosophy
Kaiser, in an email to the World, compared his foundation’s principles to those of the Times.

He said: “One of the many guiding principles of GKFF could be called the New York Times rule. Their masthead … says ‘all the news that’s fit to print.’ GKFF feels the same way about its flexible budget — if the somewhat proven, good charitable ideas within our mission prudently require less than our ideal contemplated distributions, we will underspend the ‘budget.’ On the other hand, if we have more good ideas than money, we will overspend.”

GKFF spent $132 million in grants and contributions in 2015. In 2014, that number was $200.5 million. By comparison, the city of Tulsa’s general fund spent $257.7 million in fiscal year 2014.

Ken Levit, executive director of the GKFF, said that in 2016 the foundation spent more than $200 million in grants, contributions and other projects.

While Kaiser has pledged “virtually all” of his remaining fortune to GKFF, it appears that he is in no hurry to give it away or to sell companies he controls.

He backed away from selling The Woodlands, Texas-based Excelerate Energy earlier this year, according to media reports. However, he did sell his stake in Tulsa-based Summit ESP to Halliburton in early July.

Kaiser said the same “Times” principle applies to distributing his remaining fortune and to the long-term draw-down of the foundation’s assets.

“We will let needs and solutions guide the speed of our distributions rather than put intense pressure on the trustees to liquidate in a hurry at some point and make sub-optimal judgments,” he said.

Impact down the line
Bradshaw and other business associates describe Kaiser’s business practices as those of a “contrarian” — willing to buck the status quo in favor of pursuing long-term profits.

That long-term view is seen by Bradshaw as a competitive advantage for BOKF.

“We don’t waste time thinking about the bank selling, because George is not a seller,” the bank’s CEO said. “I can’t emphasize enough what a gift that is.”

The size and scope of Kaiser’s gifts, both present and future, aren’t lost on another business associate, QuikTrip CEO Chet Cadieux, who serves on the BOKF board of directors and the foundation’s board.

He noted that while other cities had seen large-scale philanthropic giving, those cities are often larger and wealthier and have bigger economies. As a percentage of Tulsa’s economic output, Kaiser-originated philanthropy has to be larger than most, he said.

“I can’t imagine there’s another city that has someone who’s been as generous as he has,” Cadieux said in an April interview with the World.

He also noted that the time frame GKFF is investing over isn’t a brief window.

“I think a lot of the stuff that they’re doing is going to have a much bigger impact than people know, because they’re long plays,” Cadieux said. “He is working to try to treat the cause rather than the symptoms of various problems in our city. … It takes decades to have an impact, and in all likelihood the person who gave isn’t going to be around for everyone to say, ‘Hey, way to go.’ ”

An end-point, but not a date
In its close to two decades of existence, GKFF has spent $1 billion, a significant but not large fraction of its current assets. Theoretically, with the continued contributions of Kaiser’s remaining wealth, the foundation’s assets could last forever. It has a stock portfolio worth hundreds of millions, and the returns could fund its efforts in perpetuity.

While the foundation hopes to earn a good return on investments, Kaiser said the “dominant goal” is to distribute the funds. That distribution could occur over several decades, beyond the lifespan of Kaiser and those he has entrusted to accomplish his philanthropic objectives.

Commitment to, and knowledge of, Kaiser’s objectives and the foundation’s long-term mission will lessen as the people who have witnessed the philanthropy’s path die, he believes. The foundation’s board members — trustees — will be tasked with continuing the mission. Once there are only three of those trustees, or their successors, remaining, the foundation will cease to exist in the way it does today.

“We will distribute our last dollar when … the identified trustees and successor trustees diminish to a minimum practical governance group,” he said in a May email. “The foundation will distribute its remaining proceeds — over a leisurely time period — to supported organizations or to an administrative trust established for their benefit.”

Kaiser and Levit have long acknowledged that the foundation’s mission could be an 80- to 100-year project, giving its benefactor the ability only to guess as to how the transfer of wealth will work out.

“Ken is indomitable and will be there at or near the end, as will my kids, I suspect; I don’t think I’ll make it,” Kaiser said.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/george-kaiser-plans-for-his-foundation-s-future-with-a/article_313a2ef1-11fa-58e8-9a8f-19db68aa3cce.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/george-kaiser-plans-for-his-foundation-s-future-with-a/article_313a2ef1-11fa-58e8-9a8f-19db68aa3cce.html)


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: SXSW on August 15, 2017, 07:58:45 pm
Quote
I know his main concern is early childhood education, but one of the best things Mr. Kaiser could do for Tulsa is to donate to our local universities, especially TU.  I've said it before but I think building up TU to be a larger part of Tulsa is very important to the growth of this city (see my threads in the Planning forum), especially research and graduate programs.  Kaiser has already given $50 million to OU to start their School of Community Medicine in Tulsa.  I hope he will donate more when OU and TU create a full medical school in Tulsa, and I hope they can somehow use the downtown hospital as their 'home base' and share facilities with OSU's program there.  

I also know that the river and parks are important to him.  If he decides to give more to trails/parks I would hope that would involve extending the new dual jog/bike trails south of 71st Street to the Jenks bridge and extending the west bank trail south of Turkey Mountain to connect to the trails at Riverwalk Crossing.  That and a larger, nicer festival park that encompasses the Mid-Continent concrete plant on the west bank.   ;D

Funny seeing one of my posts from 7 years ago pop up.  Still feel strongly about TU and its importance to the city.  And it wasn't Kaiser but there are new trails from 71st to the Jenks bridge.  Still hoping one is extended south from Turkey Mountain to Riverwalk.  And instead of the Mid-Continent site Kaiser bought the Blair estate and is building one of the best new urban parks in the country.  


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 16, 2017, 08:08:37 am

Exceptional read.  This post has "held up" well over the last few years.  Was very glad to see it renewed, so sent to all the people on my 'mailing list'.  There has been a recognition for many years - much ridiculed by the RWRE when Obama pointed out the reality - by many extremely wealthy people that they were indeed lucky by an accident of birth and that they did not do it all as the "rugged individualist" who made billions all by themselves.  Never has happened, never will happen.  There is always a support system in place that makes it happen.


At one time, there was an understanding of the economics behind an estate tax which has been warped and twisted over the years into the oligarchic nonsense we have today. As kids there was a board game that taught people the basic fundamentals of economic activity. It appears to have been lost in the mists of time, but anyone who ever played "Monopoly" understands what happens when all the wealth gets concentrated into 1 hand. The game is over! Scale that up to the national economy - same reality applies. That is why there was an estate tax!

The game also shows it's age by the fact that there was a 'luxury tax' and rich people could go to jail.!



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Conan71 on August 16, 2017, 02:25:27 pm
Somehow it escaped me that he was born into wealth.  I had always assumed that when he mentioned the ovarian lottery that he was referring to where/when he was born and then all else fell into place.  Weren’t his parents Jewish refugees who fled Nazi Germany?


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 17, 2017, 08:54:29 am
Somehow it escaped me that he was born into wealth.  I had always assumed that when he mentioned the ovarian lottery that he was referring to where/when he was born and then all else fell into place.  Weren’t his parents Jewish refugees who fled Nazi Germany?

Yep.  While the start of the story is horrible, its a great American tale.  His parents were forced out of Nazi Germany, came here, and basically started over.  While it seems George Kaiser was born into a good family and was granted fantastic opportunities, it also seems he could have coasted along and lived a comfortable life.  But he didn't.  By all accounts he worked harder than anyone else and went on to world class wealth.  Then decided to give it away.

From wikipedia:

Quote
Kaiser was born on July 29, 1942 in Tulsa, Oklahoma.[1][2][6] He attended Central High School in Tulsa.[7] He earned a B.A. from Harvard College in 1964 and an MBA from the Harvard Business School in 1966.[8] He briefly considered joining the U.S. Foreign Service, but instead returned to Tulsa in 1966 to work for his father. Kaiser-Francis Oil Co. was created in the 1940s by Kaiser's uncle and parents, Jewish[9][10] refugees from Nazi Germany who settled in Oklahoma.[11][12]

George's father, Herman had been a judge in Germany until 1935, when he was removed from his job by the Nazis because he was Jewish. He and his wife escaped to England in 1938, then emigrated to the United States. They settled in Tulsa, where Herman's aunt and uncle already lived. Herman joined the uncle's oil drilling business. Their son was born in Tulsa.
. . .
George Kaiser took control of Kaiser-Francis Oil Company in 1969, after his father had a heart attack. Kaiser-Francis was a little-known, privately owned oil prospecting and drilling company at the time. Under George's management, it became the 23rd largest nonpublic energy exploration company in the U.S. by 2010. In that year the company earned about $217 million, based on estimates by Bloomberg News.
. . .
Kaiser typically works 70 hours a week in his office, spending half his time on philanthropy and the rest on banking, energy and other business interests.
. . .
Kaiser is listed third on BusinessWeek's 2008 list of the top 50 American philanthropists, behind Warren Buffett and Bill and Melinda Gates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kaiser


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Conan71 on August 17, 2017, 10:37:16 am
Yep.  While the start of the story is horrible, its a great American tale.  His parents were forced out of Nazi Germany, came here, and basically started over.  While it seems George Kaiser was born into a good family and was granted fantastic opportunities, it also seems he could have coasted along and lived a comfortable life.  But he didn't.  By all accounts he worked harder than anyone else and went on to world class wealth.  Then decided to give it away.

From wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kaiser

Unlike Dougie Pielsticker who pissed away a nice fortune his father busted his a$$ building.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Hoss on August 17, 2017, 10:56:48 am
Unlike Dougie Pielsticker who pissed away a nice fortune his father busted his a$$ building.

Had a good friend of mine get caught up in that hot mess.  She lost her job and said most everyone got blindsided.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 17, 2017, 01:05:56 pm
Unlike Dougie Pielsticker who pissed away a nice fortune his father busted his a$$ building.

I read somewhere that 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the 2nd generation:

time.com/money/3925308/rich-families-lose-wealth/ (http://time.com/money/3925308/rich-families-lose-wealth/)

It is incredibly difficult to build something that lasts beyond a generation. Sad that so many entitled trust fund babies end up wasting so much wealth. A lot of that is unrealistic lifestyle expectations that cause them to far outspend what the wealth will produce (similar to the Arrow Trucking where he cheated and stole from the company to keep up with his lavish lifestyle which was out of control).


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 17, 2017, 02:42:14 pm
I read somewhere that 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the 2nd generation:

time.com/money/3925308/rich-families-lose-wealth/ (http://time.com/money/3925308/rich-families-lose-wealth/)

It is incredibly difficult to build something that lasts beyond a generation. Sad that so many entitled trust fund babies end up wasting so much wealth. A lot of that is unrealistic lifestyle expectations that cause them to far outspend what the wealth will produce (similar to the Arrow Trucking where he cheated and stole from the company to keep up with his lavish lifestyle which was out of control).



That's why there used to be an estate tax.  Recognition that society can leave a big piece of fortune in the hands of kids, but the other half should go back into the pot.  Like in the board game Monopoly.  Should be required playing in public schools a few times every school year.  And absolutely mandatory - repeatedly - in "Harvard MBA" programs!!!



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Conan71 on August 17, 2017, 06:57:03 pm
Had a good friend of mine get caught up in that hot mess.  She lost her job and said most everyone got blindsided.

No one saw it apparently.  The driver's fuel cards were just shut off.  Imagine being a truck driver stranded 1500 miles from home right before Christmas.  What a foobared up deal.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: SXSW on October 29, 2018, 08:05:13 pm
I found this interesting.  The USDA is moving 700 jobs to a new office outside of DC.  They received 136 proposals from 35 different states, including three from Oklahoma: Pawnee, Stillwater (in conjunction with OSU) and Tulsa.  The applicant from Tulsa was GKFF.

http://southeastagnet.com/2018/10/22/usda-receipt-expressions-ers-nifa/ (http://southeastagnet.com/2018/10/22/usda-receipt-expressions-ers-nifa/)


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TheArtist on October 29, 2018, 09:12:31 pm
I found this interesting.  The USDA is moving 700 jobs to a new office outside of DC.  They received 136 proposals from 35 different states, including three from Oklahoma: Pawnee, Stillwater (in conjunction with OSU) and Tulsa.  The applicant from Tulsa was GKFF.

http://southeastagnet.com/2018/10/22/usda-receipt-expressions-ers-nifa/ (http://southeastagnet.com/2018/10/22/usda-receipt-expressions-ers-nifa/)

Interesting.  Glad they are seeing an opportunity and going for it for us.  Glad someone is.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: SXSW on November 02, 2018, 01:13:27 pm
This is the type of thing where OSU should’ve partnered with GKFF for a joint Tulsa submission to increase the odds of landing the office.  The Greenwood campus would be a perfect location for this office and research center.  700 new jobs would also really enhance what’s already going on in the Arts District next door.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: SXSW on November 13, 2018, 11:37:30 am
Thoughts on this GKFF program?  I think it's pretty innovative and a way to bring more start-ups to Tulsa. 

https://qz.com/work/1461211/remote-workers-can-get-a-cushy-apartment-free-office-space-and-10000-if-they-move-to-tulsa/?fbclid=IwAR1PYUL5BTYsU6jL2mELdnjqR-Wwxg5U_kGODcUm8HEXMtAeDQMK4dPpqNE (https://qz.com/work/1461211/remote-workers-can-get-a-cushy-apartment-free-office-space-and-10000-if-they-move-to-tulsa/?fbclid=IwAR1PYUL5BTYsU6jL2mELdnjqR-Wwxg5U_kGODcUm8HEXMtAeDQMK4dPpqNE)



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 13, 2018, 12:24:47 pm
Thoughts on this GKFF program?  I think it's pretty innovative and a way to bring more start-ups to Tulsa. 

https://qz.com/work/1461211/remote-workers-can-get-a-cushy-apartment-free-office-space-and-10000-if-they-move-to-tulsa/?fbclid=IwAR1PYUL5BTYsU6jL2mELdnjqR-Wwxg5U_kGODcUm8HEXMtAeDQMK4dPpqNE (https://qz.com/work/1461211/remote-workers-can-get-a-cushy-apartment-free-office-space-and-10000-if-they-move-to-tulsa/?fbclid=IwAR1PYUL5BTYsU6jL2mELdnjqR-Wwxg5U_kGODcUm8HEXMtAeDQMK4dPpqNE)



I think it's great. It sounds a bit ridiculous at first, that some billionaire will pay you $10,000 to move to Tulsa, but on closer look, it sounds like an interesting way to get skilled people to move here and experience all the cool things going on here they would otherwise might not ever know about. It is specifically targeting those who work remotely and looks like they're hoping to lure in entrepreneurial people.

Quote
They’ll also have the option of living in new furnished apartments in the Tulsa Arts District for 33 percent off the base price, as well as free utilities, for the first three months.

Other perks include free work space at 36 Degrees North, weekly brainstorming sessions with other program members and community-building opportunities. Tulsa’s Young Professionals will offer monthly workshops to help develop skills and strategies to work better remotely.




Quote
“I think a big part of the success of this will depend on how good the fit is,” Levit said. “We are making an investment in a person, and we want the people to be the kind of folks who are really going to be committed to give that year everything they have and really have a sense that they’re giving Tulsa a good-faith try for a lot longer period of time.”

https://www.tulsaworld.com/goodnews/would-you-move-to-tulsa-for-the-george-kaiser-family/article_cce94a24-6943-5098-acdc-9c6208d5fd4c.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/goodnews/would-you-move-to-tulsa-for-the-george-kaiser-family/article_cce94a24-6943-5098-acdc-9c6208d5fd4c.html)


It sounds like the application process will be long and should weed out any tire-kickers just wanting the $10k and not actually be interested in Tulsa. Maybe it still could be scammed, but interesting idea nonetheless. Really great opportunity for young professionals wanting to try out Tulsa. That would be neat if it works as intended and brings in some new residents that can help boost the startup scene. Would be really neat if any of them end up starting businesses here.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 13, 2018, 12:56:00 pm
This situation reminds me a bit of the old mining towns where the same company that lures you in with a bonus and owns the mines you go to work for also owns the apartments for rent, the amenities, the bars and everything else in the town. GKFF, which is responsible for a large portion of the Arts District revitalization, is offering apartments, owns the building they'll use for office with 36 Degrees north, built the Guthrie Green park, funds the museums around there, built the Gathering Place park, runs the Jazz club and is landlord for a large portion of places near there. George Kaiser owns the largest bank around, one they might get a car loan or mortgage through. BOK is one of the largest employers around. There's the tallest BOK building and the #1 venue BOK Center... BOKs all around and GKFF footprint everywhere!

Still they'd have plenty of options for careers and places to live that don't involve BOK so not really like a mining/company town. Also, most of it is non-profit and Kaiser is donating his majority share to GKFF so I'm all for supporting BOK. It'll just seem to people moving here like BOK/GKFF owns practically everything similar to how visitors to Pittsburg see how they seem to love their Heinz. They'll soon learn that QT is our first love  ;D


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: DTowner on November 14, 2018, 12:20:20 pm
One of the things I hear often from Tulsa executives trying to recruit out-of-state talent is the hardest thing is getting them to visit Tulsa.  If they visit, the companies are often successful in hiring them.  This program is an innovative way of exposing more people to Tulsa and overcoming that first visit problem.  If it’s successful, it might be worth exploring whether the city could scale it up with some public funding. 


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: SXSW on November 14, 2018, 12:58:08 pm
One of the things I hear often from Tulsa executives trying to recruit out-of-state talent is the hardest thing is getting them to visit Tulsa.  If they visit, the companies are often successful in hiring them.  This program is an innovative way of exposing more people to Tulsa and overcoming that first visit problem.  If it’s successful, it might be worth exploring whether the city could scale it up with some public funding.  

A lot is said about local governments doling out incentives for companies to relocate.  This is a similar private-based program that is not targeting companies but individuals, those that can live downtown and be a part of the startup scene.  I've heard GKFF has already been recruiting people to Tulsa in a similar way this just opens it up to a potentially bigger audience.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 14, 2018, 12:58:46 pm
One of the things I hear often from Tulsa executives trying to recruit out-of-state talent is the hardest thing is getting them to visit Tulsa.  If they visit, the companies are often successful in hiring them.  This program is an innovative way of exposing more people to Tulsa and overcoming that first visit problem.  If it’s successful, it might be worth exploring whether the city could scale it up with some public funding. 

Good point! People I've shown around downtown recently come away surprised and impressed that it offers many of the same things larger cities have but with much better accessibility and usually at lower cost. Tulsa has some unique things that set it apart too. All of the urban districts and various enclaves of culture give a local flavor and do well exhibiting Tulsa's culture. It's big enough to keep you busy and entertained, but small enough to be very livable and easy to enjoy without being trapped in traffic or high rent.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Rattle Trap on November 15, 2018, 11:24:30 am
I read last night that this Tulsa Remote program had well over 1000 applicants in the first 24 hours. It was being shared all over the internet by several national news outlets.

I agree with what they're trying to do in theory. Having so many applicants means they can be very selective too. Perhaps they can select individuals who show great potential in business startups, which I think is the main goal here.

Something to note is that one of the primary reasons people, and companies for that matter, don't relocate is the upfront cost and effort it takes. With that in mind, I would assume anyone who does relocate here because of this program's incentives will likely stay here long term due to the costs and effort required to relocate again.

Thoughts?


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Conan71 on November 15, 2018, 12:28:48 pm
It's pretty hard to argue with GKFF's approach on this.  It's a really novel idea and I think likely better than corporate hand outs for call centers, distribution centers, etc. Anything which will help encourage organic entrepreneurism is a great deal.  One of our goals out here in Cimarron, NM is trying to establish a business incubator in one of the vacant buildings to help locals with a skill or trade overcome the cost of entry into owning their own business.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: PhiAlpha on November 15, 2018, 04:11:14 pm
It's pretty hard to argue with GKFF's approach on this.  It's a really novel idea and I think likely better than corporate hand outs for call centers, distribution centers, etc. Anything which will help encourage organic entrepreneurism is a great deal.  One of our goals out here in Cimarron, NM is trying to establish a business incubator in one of the vacant buildings to help locals with a skill or trade overcome the cost of entry into owning their own business.

I was in a position earlier this year in which I would've gladly taken advantage of this. $10k for a year isn't a ton of money but with some of the other incentives, it really sounds like a great deal if you work from home and are looking for somewhere else to live.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Conan71 on November 18, 2018, 12:44:41 am
I was in a position earlier this year in which I would've gladly taken advantage of this. $10k for a year isn't a ton of money but with some of the other incentives, it really sounds like a great deal if you work from home and are looking for somewhere else to live.

$10K will generally cover the moving expenses of most millennials and give them some starting capital.  So excited that this incentive came out for Tulsa.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 28, 2018, 02:23:59 pm
$10K will generally cover the moving expenses of most millennials and give them some starting capital.  So excited that this incentive came out for Tulsa.



Not addressing this directly at you, but the wider audience....

Went to Tulsa Remote website for a while and still trying to get a sense of what this is all about.  First question that comes to mind;

Why??  For this whole thing... 

If the goal is to stimulate economic growth/development/new thinking/company startups, apply parts of this program to people who are doing exactly what this appears to attempt right now.  I know several who are doing remote work, could definitely use some free office space like 36 North - I am thinking about trying to a space there if they will allow old people!  Looks like grey hair is gonna be an uphill battle there as in so many other areas.   Just getting some of that, even without the $10k would be pretty substantial.

If we just wanna have 'guest workers' for a while, again, why??  And I know the answer - get people here for a while and maybe they will come here permanently with whatever work they do now.  I guess I could move my company to Rogers County and that would satisfy the requirements for a lot of this.  Will have to look into it - part of it is already physically there.  Seems like a cumbersome approach, but would love to hear/discuss this more.


Web site;
https://tulsaremote.com/#hero


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: rebound on November 28, 2018, 02:45:29 pm

Not addressing this directly at you, but the wider audience....

Went to Tulsa Remote website for a while and still trying to get a sense of what this is all about.  First question that comes to mind;

Why??  For this whole thing... 

If the goal is to stimulate economic growth/development/new thinking/company startups, apply parts of this program to people who are doing exactly what this appears to attempt right now.  I know several who are doing remote work, could definitely use some free office space like 36 North - I am thinking about trying to a space there if they will allow old people!  Looks like grey hair is gonna be an uphill battle there as in so many other areas.   Just getting some of that, even without the $10k would be pretty substantial.

If we just wanna have 'guest workers' for a while, again, why??  And I know the answer - get people here for a while and maybe they will come here permanently with whatever work they do now.  I guess I could move my company to Rogers County and that would satisfy the requirements for a lot of this.  Will have to look into it - part of it is already physically there.  Seems like a cumbersome approach, but would love to hear/discuss this more.


Web site;
https://tulsaremote.com/#hero


I travel for business all over the US, and I don't think people in Tulsa appreciate how "nothing" the rest of the US thinks about OK.  They have no idea how different OKC and Tulsa are, or that this area of the state is not flat and dry.  (and that is basically the overall thought about OK, that it is all flat and dry...)  Obviously, there are a few that have been here, and I have never heard a bad thing said about Tulsa from anyone who has actually visited here.  Most of them are very complimentary.   When OK makes the news nowadays, it almost always reinforces old and negative stereotypes, and all the marketing in the world will only go so far to say that "hey, we are different than the rest of the state".  This may be a brute-force way to do it, but if it gets new blood to come in and create things, then that is awesome.

On the age thing, I get it.  Also, I've moved here twice now (hence the "rebound" tag...) because I like the city so much.    Nobody paid me.   And now I'm well past the demographic they are wanting to attract.  But if we (Kaiser) is going to invest money to bring in new blood/talent, age is a consideration.  The longer someone stays in the community, the more ROI on the investment.  I'm not the target, nor are you, but it's still a great deal for the city.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 29, 2018, 09:51:55 pm
I travel for business all over the US, and I don't think people in Tulsa appreciate how "nothing" the rest of the US thinks about OK.  They have no idea how different OKC and Tulsa are, or that this area of the state is not flat and dry.  (and that is basically the overall thought about OK, that it is all flat and dry...)  Obviously, there are a few that have been here, and I have never heard a bad thing said about Tulsa from anyone who has actually visited here.  Most of them are very complimentary.   When OK makes the news nowadays, it almost always reinforces old and negative stereotypes, and all the marketing in the world will only go so far to say that "hey, we are different than the rest of the state".  This may be a brute-force way to do it, but if it gets new blood to come in and create things, then that is awesome.

On the age thing, I get it.  Also, I've moved here twice now (hence the "rebound" tag...) because I like the city so much.    Nobody paid me.   And now I'm well past the demographic they are wanting to attract.  But if we (Kaiser) is going to invest money to bring in new blood/talent, age is a consideration.  The longer someone stays in the community, the more ROI on the investment.  I'm not the target, nor are you, but it's still a great deal for the city.


You are right about that - I do the same, talking to a LOT of people in technical/engineering fields.  Left, right, top and bottom coasts.  Couple of foreign countries like Venezuela, Canada, and Baja Oklahoma (self-described Texas).  Have talked here about 'jawboning' just to get them to come visit - not even starting the discussion about coming here to live, except for a couple of people mentioned earlier with Varian - and it is an instant method to get to the "TEGO" moment, followed by drowsiness and then a deep sleep!  I have told the story about one from the east who I pressed so hard to visit he finally came out with the question about what was really bothering him - "what about the Indians...?"   He, and a couple of co-workers, were literally concerned there might be an Indian uprising if they came here!  SMH, over and over and over...   I told them not to worry - OKC and Tulsa were fine and only occasionally did people get arrows shot into their cars on the turnpikes!   They still haven't visited...

Oh, and pictures showing how it isn't all flat and dry don't help.  (Even OKC has some texture, so it isn't all just flat and dry.)  They still get lots of pics of the dust bowl on different channels.

We have quite a few good sized companies from elsewhere with some pretty good sized operations here.  I have worked for a few of them... and each of them considers us a 'colony'.  'Nice' place to get low wage labor, but nowhere near civilized enough to move here to stay.  Managers and Executives move here, then go home when their 'term' is up.  Even a good sized number of our homegrown companies have taken flight to go somewhere more 'glamorous'.  And what we are missing to attract them takes decades to grow.


I guess we will see about the great deal.  Would be nice - I have mentioned many times that I have a pretty sizeable number of family and friends who have left Tulsa due to lack of opportunity.  ALL of them STEM types.  Love to have them back!!  And I have had to go to OKC WAY too much in recent years because of that.  Better than being dead, but not as good as being in Tulsa..!!



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: SXSW on November 30, 2018, 10:35:26 am

You are right about that - I do the same, talking to a LOT of people in technical/engineering fields.  Left, right, top and bottom coasts.  Couple of foreign countries like Venezuela, Canada, and Baja Oklahoma (self-described Texas).  Have talked here about 'jawboning' just to get them to come visit - not even starting the discussion about coming here to live, except for a couple of people mentioned earlier with Varian - and it is an instant method to get to the "TEGO" moment, followed by drowsiness and then a deep sleep!  I have told the story about one from the east who I pressed so hard to visit he finally came out with the question about what was really bothering him - "what about the Indians...?"   He, and a couple of co-workers, were literally concerned there might be an Indian uprising if they came here!  SMH, over and over and over...   I told them not to worry - OKC and Tulsa were fine and only occasionally did people get arrows shot into their cars on the turnpikes!   They still haven't visited...

Oh, and pictures showing how it isn't all flat and dry don't help.  (Even OKC has some texture, so it isn't all just flat and dry.)  They still get lots of pics of the dust bowl on different channels.

We have quite a few good sized companies from elsewhere with some pretty good sized operations here.  I have worked for a few of them... and each of them considers us a 'colony'.  'Nice' place to get low wage labor, but nowhere near civilized enough to move here to stay.  Managers and Executives move here, then go home when their 'term' is up.  Even a good sized number of our homegrown companies have taken flight to go somewhere more 'glamorous'.  And what we are missing to attract them takes decades to grow.


I guess we will see about the great deal.  Would be nice - I have mentioned many times that I have a pretty sizeable number of family and friends who have left Tulsa due to lack of opportunity.  ALL of them STEM types.  Love to have them back!!  And I have had to go to OKC WAY too much in recent years because of that.  Better than being dead, but not as good as being in Tulsa..!!

I've said it plenty of times but we have to organically grow our STEM jobs.  Which means our universities need to be much better at producing the types of graduates that those industries need.  Tulsa has a long history of innovation...at least in the energy, communications and aerospace industries.  Look at what Williams/WilTel did with fiber optics in the 90's.  Look at all of the aerospace companies that build aircraft components even one time building the robotic arms for the space shuttle.  Tulsa also has really good trade schools which is one of the reasons the area has so many manufacturing jobs.

TU is a good university and is strong in STEM programs, especially engineering.  It could use a boost with its science and technology programs, as well as health sciences (which is happening with their partnership with OU).  The problem is TU is too small, it needs to be about twice its current size to make a more significant impact.  Imagine a TU the size of OU in Norman at 11th & Delaware.  That's not going to happen, but now imagine a TU the size of TCU in Ft Worth (enrollment of ~9,000), that is definitely possible if the will is there.  That coupled with increases in investment from OU and OSU into their respective Tulsa campuses would be trans-formative.  


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 30, 2018, 02:01:29 pm
I've said it plenty of times but we have to organically grow our STEM jobs.  Which means our universities need to be much better at producing the types of graduates that those industries need.  Tulsa has a long history of innovation...at least in the energy, communications and aerospace industries.  Look at what Williams/WilTel did with fiber optics in the 90's.  Look at all of the aerospace companies that build aircraft components even one time building the robotic arms for the space shuttle.  Tulsa also has really good trade schools which is one of the reasons the area has so many manufacturing jobs.

TU is a good university and is strong in STEM programs, especially engineering.  It could use a boost with its science and technology programs, as well as health sciences (which is happening with their partnership with OU).  The problem is TU is too small, it needs to be about twice its current size to make a more significant impact.  Imagine a TU the size of OU in Norman at 11th & Delaware.  That's not going to happen, but now imagine a TU the size of TCU in Ft Worth (enrollment of ~9,000), that is definitely possible if the will is there.  That coupled with increases in investment from OU and OSU into their respective Tulsa campuses would be trans-formative.  

They had plans to increase somewhat, but TU probably can't/won't feasibly get anywhere near that big any time soon. They are limited by the demographics because of trying to limit admissions to students in top 10%. The pool of applicants isn't growing (for most all universities) so the only way to expand is lower their standards. If they allow too low, their rankings and reputation will suffer and will cause a ripple effect and hurt future years as well. They've actually gotten a bit smaller recently because of the decline in incoming freshmen nation wide.

If Tulsa wants a big university it will need to be public. Many want it and I agree that it would certainly be a big boost that is well needed and would be highly utilized. Maybe Tulsan leaders can seize the opportunity with a Tulsan governor and likely a bit more influence in state politics than usual.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on November 30, 2018, 02:13:25 pm

You are right about that - I do the same, talking to a LOT of people in technical/engineering fields.  Left, right, top and bottom coasts.  Couple of foreign countries like Venezuela, Canada, and Baja Oklahoma (self-described Texas).  Have talked here about 'jawboning' just to get them to come visit - not even starting the discussion about coming here to live, except for a couple of people mentioned earlier with Varian - and it is an instant method to get to the "TEGO" moment, followed by drowsiness and then a deep sleep!  I have told the story about one from the east who I pressed so hard to visit he finally came out with the question about what was really bothering him - "what about the Indians...?"   He, and a couple of co-workers, were literally concerned there might be an Indian uprising if they came here!  SMH, over and over and over...   I told them not to worry - OKC and Tulsa were fine and only occasionally did people get arrows shot into their cars on the turnpikes!   They still haven't visited...

Oh, and pictures showing how it isn't all flat and dry don't help.  (Even OKC has some texture, so it isn't all just flat and dry.)  They still get lots of pics of the dust bowl on different channels.

We have quite a few good sized companies from elsewhere with some pretty good sized operations here.  I have worked for a few of them... and each of them considers us a 'colony'.  'Nice' place to get low wage labor, but nowhere near civilized enough to move here to stay.  Managers and Executives move here, then go home when their 'term' is up.  Even a good sized number of our homegrown companies have taken flight to go somewhere more 'glamorous'.  And what we are missing to attract them takes decades to grow.


I guess we will see about the great deal.  Would be nice - I have mentioned many times that I have a pretty sizeable number of family and friends who have left Tulsa due to lack of opportunity.  ALL of them STEM types.  Love to have them back!!  And I have had to go to OKC WAY too much in recent years because of that.  Better than being dead, but not as good as being in Tulsa..!!



I get what you're saying but that is how things are viewed on a top-corporate level or by big cities just like "flyover country" is dismissed on the coasts. It's a very generalized and wrong view that isn't shared regionally where most prospective future Tulsans would move from. Sure many in Dallas or Houston don't think much of Tulsa or think it's a tiny country town, but many in Chicago ignorantly view KC and Dallas as little redneck towns.

People in the region do know Tulsa and many move here from all over and many of those people enjoy it, especially when people experience our arts, music and midtown areas. Many also love the quiet affordable suburb lifestyle here over places like Chicago where it's very expensive or long commute.

It's not unique to Tulsa that people move away for STEM jobs. I can go show you hundreds of STEM job listings in Tulsa, many of which will be filled by out of state applicants. Those jobs are often very specialized and often bring people from all over. When I was a senior, I had companies from several different states interview me and had offers in different states. The sometimes-higher offers require you to move to some remote area or a big city, but Tulsa's aerospace and oil & gas jobs are often right in line with pay in some much larger cities. I was surprised many offers around here were higher than what a lot of northern/midwest jobs were paying.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 30, 2018, 04:17:26 pm
I've said it plenty of times but we have to organically grow our STEM jobs.  Which means our universities need to be much better at producing the types of graduates that those industries need.  Tulsa has a long history of innovation...at least in the energy, communications and aerospace industries.  Look at what Williams/WilTel did with fiber optics in the 90's.  Look at all of the aerospace companies that build aircraft components even one time building the robotic arms for the space shuttle.  Tulsa also has really good trade schools which is one of the reasons the area has so many manufacturing jobs.

TU is a good university and is strong in STEM programs, especially engineering.  It could use a boost with its science and technology programs, as well as health sciences (which is happening with their partnership with OU).  The problem is TU is too small, it needs to be about twice its current size to make a more significant impact.  Imagine a TU the size of OU in Norman at 11th & Delaware.  That's not going to happen, but now imagine a TU the size of TCU in Ft Worth (enrollment of ~9,000), that is definitely possible if the will is there.  That coupled with increases in investment from OU and OSU into their respective Tulsa campuses would be trans-formative.  



"Circle of friends/family" (over half family) lost to OK who went to school at one of either OU, OSU, TU.  Chemical Engr (MSCE), two Mechanical (BSME), three Electrical(2 BSEE and 1 MSEE), two "SuperTechs" - electrical/electronic, one Computer Engr (BSCE), one Computer Science BS degree, plus 4 teachers - all MS degrees (only one STEM teacher, others were English, Special Ed, and one I don't remember but teaches elementary.)  Also have two who are game programming Computer Science people - STEM but I don't really "get" what they do - lots of algorithm and graphics stuff on the left coast, way up north...

Agreeing with you....
We have great Universities here - and they can stand with pretty much any school in the country.   I have gone online to MIT's site and went through Calc as a refresher a couple years ago - it was no "better" or enlightening than what is taught here, at TU, OSU, and even TCC.  Calc is calc is calc.  Physics is physics is physics.  Individual instructors make much more a difference than the nature of the institution, and I was "lucky" to have many very good teachers throughout.  We are not 'behind' at all.!!

Biggest problem I see with TU and getting bigger is that they just can't quite seem to reach that critical mass needed to start a doctorate program in Electrical Engineering.  If they were bigger, it might give them some 'headroom' to do that and similar things in other departments.


Your quote;   "producing the types of graduates that those industries need."

That has been a burr under my saddle for a long time - there is a tremendous amount of talent that is going to waste in NE OK...and the rest of the state as well just dueo to an attitude by companies - and mostly HR departments - that if they can't get the exact full list of items 'desired' from a candidate, they don't make a move.  They should hire as close as possible and develop from there.  And to make it worse, they write a list of 'requirements' that has never existed in any field in the history of the planet!  That is a HUGE FAIL by corporate America!!  My mind is boggled that the C suite lets HR get away with that carp!   You can see these kind of things on any job site from companies like ABB, AA, Siemens, Navico, Garmin, Enduro Pipeline, Halliburton (Summit), Baker Hughes, Spirit, Enovation Ctrls, GRC, Victory Energy, even TDW does it some (to a lesser degree).  

Not meaning to pick on them - they are some really good companies with just a little bit too much influence from HR.

As another example - I just talked to a friend few days ago, who was with Boeing at Tinker early this year, who I worked with for a decade - super EE!  Has several patents in several different industries (like me, but not me...).  He is old now, though - mid 50's, so even with the breadth and depth of his experience, with the pretty amazing array of electronics creations he has done - he is now driving a truck hauling supplies to oil field locations.  Waste of a great OU Electrical Engineer!  (Side note - I am not crying for him, cause he is satisfied with it for now, and making pretty good money...not quite as much, but enough.)

The above is a HUGE part of the reason the list I gave are not in OK making us even greater!  Short sighted, no imagination, uninspired, anemic, management.   Kaiser has done some great stuff, but his latest remote Tulsa thing is slightly off target as far as I am concerned - even if we do attract all the "best and brightest", the experience I and friends/family have had will send them back on the road way too soon!!  I think an effort to stem (pun?) the tide of STEM emigration would pay off with bigger returns.  Just my opinion...



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 30, 2018, 04:25:48 pm
They had plans to increase somewhat, but TU probably can't/won't feasibly get anywhere near that big any time soon. They are limited by the demographics because of trying to limit admissions to students in top 10%. The pool of applicants isn't growing (for most all universities) so the only way to expand is lower their standards. If they allow too low, their rankings and reputation will suffer and will cause a ripple effect and hurt future years as well. They've actually gotten a bit smaller recently because of the decline in incoming freshmen nation wide.

If Tulsa wants a big university it will need to be public. Many want it and I agree that it would certainly be a big boost that is well needed and would be highly utilized. Maybe Tulsan leaders can seize the opportunity with a Tulsan governor and likely a bit more influence in state politics than usual.


Boy did they mess up when they let me in then!  Top 10%!   Maybe I am what inspired them to shoot for that..???  Lol...

Tulsa Governor in this case won't help.  He has already said he was against the pay raises for teachers - the entry point from which all education flows.  And would like to rescind the raises.  That's gonna be a big help, I am sure!!  Not.

TU has huge endowments and could grow if the applicants were available - you touched on it exactly - lower numbers of freshmen across the board.  Which brings us right back to the problem of student loan debt after graduation.  Which means that state schools, at least, need MORE state support, NOT less as is on the agenda with this clown.   It is a Catch 22 'downward spiral'.



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on November 30, 2018, 04:40:02 pm
I get what you're saying but that is how things are viewed on a top-corporate level or by big cities just like "flyover country" is dismissed on the coasts. It's a very generalized and wrong view that isn't shared regionally where most prospective future Tulsans would move from. Sure many in Dallas or Houston don't think much of Tulsa or think it's a tiny country town, but many in Chicago ignorantly view KC and Dallas as little redneck towns.

People in the region do know Tulsa and many move here from all over and many of those people enjoy it, especially when people experience our arts, music and midtown areas. Many also love the quiet affordable suburb lifestyle here over places like Chicago where it's very expensive or long commute.

It's not unique to Tulsa that people move away for STEM jobs. I can go show you hundreds of STEM job listings in Tulsa, many of which will be filled by out of state applicants. Those jobs are often very specialized and often bring people from all over. When I was a senior, I had companies from several different states interview me and had offers in different states. The sometimes-higher offers require you to move to some remote area or a big city, but Tulsa's aerospace and oil & gas jobs are often right in line with pay in some much larger cities. I was surprised many offers around here were higher than what a lot of northern/midwest jobs were paying.


I would much rather see us get GOOD attention from the coasts!  That is where the big movements/developments are happening in recent decades.

I think it is gonna be a very tough sell to interest people from other midwest areas to come here for the long term.  Some of those I have mentioned that moved here while 'completing' some job assignment, or retired, etc were from places like Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, Indianapolis, and Phoenix.  Also some 'coasties' - San Diego, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle.  None of them are here now - they all went "home" - and some of the companies are also winding down or already moved on.  Outside forces as well as our own "step-on-our-own-toes" efforts combine to hurt us.  A lot.

Pay - yeah, sometimes we get that right.   When I graduated I got offers from Boeing (Wichita), General Dynamics (Dallas), Collins (KC), and Rockwell at about 20% more than what Tulsa was doing at the time.  Turns out, got an offer here in town equal to those others - the company had to rework it's entire pay schedule, though, cause I would have come in at about 15% more than the very senior engineers that were there.  Got about 8 guys some REALLY good raises!  Hey, y'all - you are welcome!!   (They know who they are, if they know who I am...)




Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TheArtist on December 01, 2018, 09:21:44 am
The conversation went from "Bringing in new people with new ideas to create new companies" to "hiring for jobs at big, old established firms."

Having both are important. 

But, I think getting Tulsa to be seen as a modern thinking,  "entrepreneurial" city that is both welcoming to newcomers AND supportive of those entrepreneurs who are here, is important. 

And I do get the point that it often doesn't seem like we adequately and as visually/vocally support what is already here and going on.  Do think there are some positive signs on that front though.  A more vigorous "buy local/support local" push by the city would not only be great for those that are here but send a HUGE positive signal to those new entrepreneurs that we are wanting to attract from around the world, that Tulsa is a great, worthwhile place to be.  If when they get here they are going to be ignored like those who are already here are, that's not a good signal to send. If they think that when they get here the attention will instantly go off of them and instead be "getting in someone new", that again is also not a good signal to send. These young, entrepreneurial people aren't stupid. They can see how the people/businesses (downtown stores as a per instance) that are already here are being ignored and not promoted.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Dspike on December 03, 2018, 11:56:48 am
"Tulsa Governor in this case won't help.  He has already said he was against the pay raises for teachers - the entry point from which all education flows.  And would like to rescind the raises."

Do you have an article or quote where Gov.-Elect Stitt says he wants to rescind the teacher pay raises. Everything I've seen says Gov.-Elect Stitt wants to increase teacher pay more. For example, this right-before-the-election article:

"Stitt has set a goal of making Oklahoma the highest paying for teachers out in the six-state region.

While he hasn't set a specific number, Stitt has promised to seek an education funding increase next year through a growth in the state's tax base and more efficient spending, but not through tax hikes."

https://newsok.com/article/5613609/candidates-differ-on-teacher-pay-in-first-year

And this just-after-the-election article:

"But [Stitt] has also vowed to increase spending in education and said he would seek another teacher pay raise during the first year of his administration."

https://newsok.com/article/5614226/kevin-stitt-wins-governors-race

And his campaign website itself:

"Raise teacher pay so that it matches the pay of teachers in our six-state footprint. With 95 percent of Oklahoma children attending public schools, we must ensure those on the front lines of teaching our children receive the support they need to succeed."

https://www.stittforgovernor.com/issues/


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 03, 2018, 12:09:26 pm
The conversation went from "Bringing in new people with new ideas to create new companies" to "hiring for jobs at big, old established firms."

Having both are important. 

But, I think getting Tulsa to be seen as a modern thinking,  "entrepreneurial" city that is both welcoming to newcomers AND supportive of those entrepreneurs who are here, is important. 

And I do get the point that it often doesn't seem like we adequately and as visually/vocally support what is already here and going on.  Do think there are some positive signs on that front though.  A more vigorous "buy local/support local" push by the city would not only be great for those that are here but send a HUGE positive signal to those new entrepreneurs that we are wanting to attract from around the world, that Tulsa is a great, worthwhile place to be.  If when they get here they are going to be ignored like those who are already here are, that's not a good signal to send. If they think that when they get here the attention will instantly go off of them and instead be "getting in someone new", that again is also not a good signal to send. These young, entrepreneurial people aren't stupid. They can see how the people/businesses (downtown stores as a per instance) that are already here are being ignored and not promoted.


'Prodigal Son' syndrome.  Or a bird in the hand can be ignored while chasing after the one in the bush...?


I think there has been some movement toward developing local talent - 36 North is pretty cool.  And The Forge is making the right noises (but I am not familiar with them to comment on effectiveness).   FabLab looks interesting, but seems to be more kid oriented.

We are having things happen in the right direction, and I think this one probably is too...maybe?...progress is slow and halting.






Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: rebound on December 03, 2018, 12:13:45 pm
"Tulsa Governor in this case won't help.  He has already said he was against the pay raises for teachers - the entry point from which all education flows.  And would like to rescind the raises."

Do you have an article or quote where Gov.-Elect Stitt says he wants to rescind the teacher pay raises. Everything I've seen says Gov.-Elect Stitt wants to increase teacher pay more. For example, this right-before-the-election article:

"Stitt has set a goal of making Oklahoma the highest paying for teachers out in the six-state region.

While he hasn't set a specific number, Stitt has promised to seek an education funding increase next year through a growth in the state's tax base and more efficient spending, but not through tax hikes."

https://newsok.com/article/5613609/candidates-differ-on-teacher-pay-in-first-year

And this just-after-the-election article:

"But [Stitt] has also vowed to increase spending in education and said he would seek another teacher pay raise during the first year of his administration."

https://newsok.com/article/5614226/kevin-stitt-wins-governors-race

And his campaign website itself:

"Raise teacher pay so that it matches the pay of teachers in our six-state footprint. With 95 percent of Oklahoma children attending public schools, we must ensure those on the front lines of teaching our children receive the support they need to succeed."

https://www.stittforgovernor.com/issues/

I don't know about rescinding, but Stitt is on record saying he would not have voted for the teacher pay raise that was recently passed.  He has said something to the effect that he didn't want to tie the raises to a volatile funding source like natural gas taxes, or similar.

If in fact he is serious about getting school funding and teacher salaries back on track, I'll give him time to prove out his position.   But, it's a lot easier to talk about wanting to increase spending (which is what it will take) than to actually do it.   The state will have to go get money somewhere, and that will mean (in some way, shape, or form...) raising taxes.   I am extremely doubtful that Stitt, or OK legislature in general, will do that.






Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 03, 2018, 12:21:54 pm
"Tulsa Governor in this case won't help.  He has already said he was against the pay raises for teachers - the entry point from which all education flows.  And would like to rescind the raises."

Do you have an article or quote where Gov.-Elect Stitt says he wants to rescind the teacher pay raises. Everything I've seen says Gov.-Elect Stitt wants to increase teacher pay more. For example, this right-before-the-election article:

"Stitt has set a goal of making Oklahoma the highest paying for teachers out in the six-state region.

While he hasn't set a specific number, Stitt has promised to seek an education funding increase next year through a growth in the state's tax base and more efficient spending, but not through tax hikes."

https://newsok.com/article/5613609/candidates-differ-on-teacher-pay-in-first-year

And this just-after-the-election article:

"But [Stitt] has also vowed to increase spending in education and said he would seek another teacher pay raise during the first year of his administration."

https://newsok.com/article/5614226/kevin-stitt-wins-governors-race

And his campaign website itself:

"Raise teacher pay so that it matches the pay of teachers in our six-state footprint. With 95 percent of Oklahoma children attending public schools, we must ensure those on the front lines of teaching our children receive the support they need to succeed."

https://www.stittforgovernor.com/issues/



Yeah...same kind of lies Failin' has been mouthing for years now - about 'supporting' education and improving it.  By "cutting out waste"..."more accountability"...   These are the buzz words that mean more tax cuts for the richest, no real increases in education spending - even though we are literally the bottom of the barrel nationwide.  

"Too much money fails to reach the classrooms" - true - because of his buddies cuts to education over the last 8 years.  And the BS about "too many districts" or "too much administration" - well, there is plenty of documented evidence floating around here - referenced and cross referenced - that shows what a crock of carp that lie is.  

His campaign website says more pay, while campaigning he said he would not have signed the pay raise.  Which one do YOU think is the lie??  is the lie, do you suppose??

And from his campaign site - he wants to give $5,000 "bonuses" - one time - to new teachers, ostensibly to retain fresh out of school grads.  Even though he knows they can walk in the door at any state around us for $15,000 - 20,000 more.  (I would love to have some of what he is smoking for the weekends, but am truly afraid it would dumb me up to where I believed his BS....like almost 2/3 of OK voters did...!!)

https://newsok.com/article/5590288/three-gop-gubernatorial-candidates-say-they-wouldnt-have-signed-pay-raise-package



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 03, 2018, 12:26:02 pm
"Tulsa Governor in this case won't help.  He has already said he was against the pay raises for teachers - the entry point from which all education flows.  And would like to rescind the raises."

Do you have an article or quote where Gov.-Elect Stitt says he wants to rescind the teacher pay raises. Everything I've seen says Gov.-Elect Stitt wants to increase teacher pay more. For example, this right-before-the-election article:

"Stitt has set a goal of making Oklahoma the highest paying for teachers out in the six-state region.

While he hasn't set a specific number, Stitt has promised to seek an education funding increase next year through a growth in the state's tax base and more efficient spending, but not through tax hikes."

https://newsok.com/article/5613609/candidates-differ-on-teacher-pay-in-first-year

And this just-after-the-election article:

"But [Stitt] has also vowed to increase spending in education and said he would seek another teacher pay raise during the first year of his administration."

https://newsok.com/article/5614226/kevin-stitt-wins-governors-race

And his campaign website itself:

"Raise teacher pay so that it matches the pay of teachers in our six-state footprint. With 95 percent of Oklahoma children attending public schools, we must ensure those on the front lines of teaching our children receive the support they need to succeed."

https://www.stittforgovernor.com/issues/


And don't forget - this is still the business guy who was banned for life from doing business in GA.  And reprimanded for shady business dealings in several more states.  Until earlier this year when they finally found the "right" official to incentivize to make that go away.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Dspike on December 03, 2018, 02:09:21 pm
So, to be clear, he does not support rescinding the teacher pay raise. He says he wants to increase pay more but not through even higher tax rates. Whether that is feasible or likely is definitely debatable.

Didn't meant to derail the thread. But misinformation like saying he wants to rescind the teacher pay raises is harmful to our state policy debates.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: swake on December 03, 2018, 02:15:13 pm
So, to be clear, he does not support rescinding the teacher pay raise. He says he wants to increase pay more but not through even higher tax rates. Whether that is feasible or likely is definitely debatable.

Didn't meant to derail the thread. But misinformation like saying he wants to rescind the teacher pay raises is harmful to our state policy debates.

Saying we could have given teacher raises without raising taxes is harmful to state policy debates. It's nonsense.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Laramie on December 03, 2018, 02:23:25 pm
Saying we could have given teacher raises without raising taxes is harmful to state policy debates. It's nonsense.

You need a solid source of revenue to maintain teacher salaries if Oklahoma wants to attract and maintain reputable veteran teachers and become a stepping stone to keep our young teacher graduates in-state as well as attract out-of-state graduates.

We could give bonus money to those teachers who pass the examines to  become national board certified teachers.

In the state's two largest school districts; reduce the number of steps to reach the top of the pay scale.

To those of you who plan to enter the teaching profession; join a union--OEA or AFT, you will need personal liability insurance as well as the resources these organization provide.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: rebound on December 03, 2018, 02:31:22 pm
You need a solid source of revenue to maintain teacher salaries if Oklahoma wants to attract and maintain reputable veteran teachers and become a stepping stone to keep our young teacher graduates in-state.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?  What is a "solid source of revenue"?  The state only gets money through taxes of some form.  To get money, we tax.  OK is near or at the bottom of all states in terms of state budget per population.  Based on the attached Wiki link, we are dead last.   We cannot thrive while continuing to starve ourselves, and that will mean raising revenue (taxes) in some form.  There is no other option, other than continuing our inevitable slog to the bottom...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets)

If I'm reading your reply wrong, and you are in favor of increasing salaries and the overall budget, my apologies.  I am not sure what direction you are promoting.





Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Laramie on December 03, 2018, 02:46:18 pm
I'm not sure what you mean by this?  What is a "solid source of revenue"?  The state only gets money through taxes of some form.  To get money, we tax.  OK is near or at the bottom of all states in terms of state budget per population.  Based on the attached Wiki link, we are dead last.   We cannot thrive while continuing to starve ourselves, and that will mean raising revenue (taxes) in some form.  There is no other option, other than continuing our inevitable slog to the bottom...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_budgets)

If I'm reading your reply wrong, and you are in favor of increasing salaries and the overall budget, my apologies.  I am not sure what direction you are promoting

Solid source of revenue:  one that is consistent & reliable and doesn't fluctuate to the point that districts have to make drastic teacher cuts or increase class sizes.

I've worked in the education profession for a number of years (Public school teacher, administrator & community college instructor); education has always been put on the back-burner.  The Energy sectors could pay more, we realize how important these companies are to the state--they need to be taxed according; also districts are not passing millage levies to support capital improvements for schools with the exception of vocational education.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 03, 2018, 03:14:46 pm
So, to be clear, he does not support rescinding the teacher pay raise. He says he wants to increase pay more but not through even higher tax rates. Whether that is feasible or likely is definitely debatable.

Didn't meant to derail the thread. But misinformation like saying he wants to rescind the teacher pay raises is harmful to our state policy debates.



Yep.  He is saying he wants to increase pay.   Still said he would have voted against, which by definition means they would be making that much less.  In effect he would have 'rescinded' it before it even happened....

And you drift dangerously close to touching on something that is highly glossed over by these people who keep mouthing about no tax increases - the ones I commented about earlier - which absolutely include Failin' Stitt.  The egregious lies, distortions, and misrepresentations that somehow we are exceptional in waste and have no accountability.  (IF that were true, then the last 8 years of Republican control of both houses and Governor would be the absolute direct proximate cause of that.  And I am beginning to think that is more likely every day.)

swake and rebound are also both talking about it in this thread.  We only get money from taxes.  Period.  Nobody I know likes it, but that is the reality that the Republicans won't acknowledge due to their unlimited greed and lack of caring about the real condition of the state - as more than proven in the last 8 years of cuts for the richest and disregard of budget problems.  It is an attitude of "just so long as I get mine, I don't care what happens to anyone else..."   And I repeat, since you seem to have ignored this completely;  They show this in the ongoing set of lies and distortions about 'supporting' education and improving it.  By "cutting out waste"..."more accountability"...   These are the buzz words that mean more tax cuts for the richest, no real increases in education spending - even though we are literally the bottom of the barrel nationwide.  

Grown ups KNOW what it takes to provide the services needed to have a viable state (and Fed government while we are at it.)  Republicans know, but refuse to accept responsibility - as evidenced repeatedly by irresponsible tax cuts that have absolutely hurt us as a state on a wide front of topics.  Just one of the things outside interests look at when choosing not to come to Oklahoma - nothing Mr. Kaiser can offset the stupid sh$t we show the rest of the world!!  As good a guy as he is, even he doesn't have that much money!


And the whole time we hear the mouth-breather buzz word noises of;

- delivering strong leadership and vision
- apply performance metrics
- end politics as usual
- reduce and streamline the 400 agencies, boards, and commissions
- give the governor more accountability
- prioritize students and funding for the classroom  (which we already do, even with the cuts to budgets)
- expand the use of video technology (new computers all around when we can't even buy new books for the classroom)
- Recruit, train and retain great teachers (at 25-50% less pay than anywhere else they can go...but no increases in funding to pay for them)


You also made no comment on Stitt's shady business dealings.  The ends justifies the means to the extremist right....it can all be "fixed" with the proper application of lubricants (money)!

I submit that hiring a shady businessman who has made a living from shady business practices is much more harmful to our state policy and debates than any little points or comments I may make...no one pays any attention to me, so I will never be able to cause harm to Oklahoma, which I would never do anyway.  Stitt has the power and the apparent inclination to cause us massive hurt by just following in the tradition and footsteps of Mentor Failin'.



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Rattle Trap on December 03, 2018, 03:50:03 pm
Public education is one of those necessary evils. It's an antiquated system not well suited for the modern world (from a financial sense). I am for the teacher raises and spending more on education as long as there are real results and it improves the state's reputation nationwide. All of these negative things you hear about education in Oklahoma are derived from one statistic, that we spend less per student than most states. This doesn't even necessarily say anything about the quality of our education, only that we spend less. Then you get some crazy liberal news outlets to jump on the story to try and paint a picture of "Republican stronghold of Oklahoma failing because of Republican policies and spending less than other states".

I graduated high school from Owasso. Within my graduating class, we had one of the highest amounts of national merit scholars for one school in the nation. We competed nationally (and successfully) in debate, band, choir, etc. ACT scores and college admission were well above national average. My point being that state spending per pupil doesn't really matter, at least not in a suburban setting. Rural is a different story since there is less property tax, but even then if you have a curriculum to go by and proper supplies then anyone could teach at a high school level.

Unfortunately there is a negative perception of Oklahoma due to our conservative leanings and if spending more on education will solve that (it won't) then so be it. Stitt said he's for giving teachers pay raises, but said the most recent one was the wrong way to go about it.

I don't pretend to know what the solution is. I just wish people would calm down and realize that more spending doesn't always mean better results.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Conan71 on December 03, 2018, 04:05:07 pm
I'm not quite sure how a discussion over teacher salaries registers with George Kaiser and his philanthropy but I think this has strayed well enough off topic.

But as long as we are here in a time-honored tradition of our thread drift:
 
Great new taproom!

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/d0/ed0b752e-84be-5614-be5f-bdba5b38fe75/5ba27ce96d568.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C800)


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: rebound on December 04, 2018, 11:16:47 am
Public education is one of those necessary evils. It's an antiquated system not well suited for the modern world (from a financial sense). I am for the teacher raises and spending more on education as long as there are real results and it improves the state's reputation nationwide. All of these negative things you hear about education in Oklahoma are derived from one statistic, that we spend less per student than most states. This doesn't even necessarily say anything about the quality of our education, only that we spend less. Then you get some crazy liberal news outlets to jump on the story to try and paint a picture of "Republican stronghold of Oklahoma failing because of Republican policies and spending less than other states".

I graduated high school from Owasso. Within my graduating class, we had one of the highest amounts of national merit scholars for one school in the nation. We competed nationally (and successfully) in debate, band, choir, etc. ACT scores and college admission were well above national average. My point being that state spending per pupil doesn't really matter, at least not in a suburban setting. Rural is a different story since there is less property tax, but even then if you have a curriculum to go by and proper supplies then anyone could teach at a high school level.

Unfortunately there is a negative perception of Oklahoma due to our conservative leanings and if spending more on education will solve that (it won't) then so be it. Stitt said he's for giving teachers pay raises, but said the most recent one was the wrong way to go about it.

I don't pretend to know what the solution is. I just wish people would calm down and realize that more spending doesn't always mean better results.

There are so many points and topics to discuss in your comments, but I don't have time this morning to address them all.  So, I'll go to the first and the last, and then yeild to Conan's comment that this thread has drifted far enough off-topic...

"Public education is one of those necessary evils"
If you sincerely think this, I don't even think a discussion can be had.  Good public education is systemic to Democracy, and the very nature of our government requires an educated populace.  It is not an evil of any kind, but something that should be celebrated and supported.  Of course, there is also the practical argument that virturally every major first-world society/country has a good public education system, and we need to keep up to be cometitive, but that aspect is often lost in this state.

"I graduated high school from Owasso."
Adding this in as I go through as an aside.   Owasso is one of the best public school systems in the state.  When we moved back up to this area a decade or so ago, we moved to Owasso in large part because of the school system.  So, kudos to Owasso.  But understand that your experience is not normal for the state, and that Owasso is one of the most affluent public school systems in OK.   Do a quick search on standardized test scores, college preparation and performance, and related, and it is obvious that OK public schools overall are not preparing students adequately.

"spending doesn't always mean better results."
Agreed in principle, but with a caveat.   If OK were somewhere mid-pack in terms of state spending (and not specifically in Education, but across the board), then a balanced discussion could be had related to spending versus cutting.  But to perform at a high level in any activity, a certain amount of fuel is required, and in this case that fuel is money.  OK cannot be dead-last in spending (in anything) and expect high results.   As it is now, we are one of the lowest performing states in multiple categories, and we are lowest spending states in country.  This is not a coincidence.

Now, Conan, about that tap room... 


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: carltonplace on December 04, 2018, 12:58:06 pm
....and Conan wins for the TNF customary drift to Marshall's Beer!!!! Well done Conan.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Laramie on December 04, 2018, 04:11:39 pm

If there is anyway you can support teacher raises through a moderate tax increase on the corporate sector like the energy (oil & gas) lets explore those options first. If push comes to shove then look at a slight increase in property and/or a special 1/16 increase on state sales taxes dedicated to teacher salaries. Oklahoma will need to raise teacher salaries by $4,000  by 2020 to get us out of the bottom five rut.

We have to get this done.  The damage has already cost the state an exodus of many talented teachers to states like Texas & California.  We need a long-term plan to support those raises that doesn't require one segment of tax papers to shoulder the burden term.

2017 rankings prior to the teacher walkout:  https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/data/analysis/2018/04/12/teacher-salary-2017/508703002/ (https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/data/analysis/2018/04/12/teacher-salary-2017/508703002/)

     45. West Virginia, $44,470
     46. Mississippi, $44,364
     47. Arizona, $44,113
     48. North Carolina, $43,897
     49. South Dakota, $40,790
     50. Oklahoma, $40,201

*1970s Oklahoma ranked 44
*1980s Oklahoma ranked 45
*1990s Oklahoma ranked 47 (vaguely recall the 3 decade ranking from memory*).

Norman Transcript:  Mar 29, 2018:  "The massive tax package, which is expected to raise about $447 million in new revenue, will allow lawmakers to give classroom teachers an average $6,100 pay increase:  https://www.normantranscript.com/news/government/senate-narrowly-approves-teacher-raise-package/article_9403013b-4f74-5f48-8ad5-6f61e5e94934.html (https://www.normantranscript.com/news/government/senate-narrowly-approves-teacher-raise-package/article_9403013b-4f74-5f48-8ad5-6f61e5e94934.html)

Oklahoma's is still among the bottom 5 states with the worst in teacher pay @$46,301; several states in that bottom five have increase teacher salaries for 2018.



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Hoss on December 04, 2018, 05:12:59 pm
If there is anyway you can support teacher raises through a moderate tax increase on the corporate sector like the energy (oil & gas) lets explore those options first. If push comes to shove then look at a slight increase in property and/or a special 1/16 increase on state sales taxes dedicated to teacher salaries. Oklahoma will need to raise teacher salaries by $4,000  by 2020 to get us out of the bottom five rut.

We have to get this done.  The damage has already cost the state an exodus of many talented teachers to states like Texas & California.  We need a long-term plan to support those raises that doesn't require one segment of tax papers to shoulder the burden term.

2017 rankings prior to the teacher walkout:  https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/data/analysis/2018/04/12/teacher-salary-2017/508703002/ (https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/data/analysis/2018/04/12/teacher-salary-2017/508703002/)

     45. West Virginia, $44,470
     46. Mississippi, $44,364
     47. Arizona, $44,113
     48. North Carolina, $43,897
     49. South Dakota, $40,790
     50. Oklahoma, $40,201

*1970s Oklahoma ranked 44
*1980s Oklahoma ranked 45
*1990s Oklahoma ranked 47 (vaguely recall the 3 decade ranking from memory*).

Norman Transcript:  Mar 29, 2018:  "The massive tax package, which is expected to raise about $447 million in new revenue, will allow lawmakers to give classroom teachers an average $6,100 pay increase:  https://www.normantranscript.com/news/government/senate-narrowly-approves-teacher-raise-package/article_9403013b-4f74-5f48-8ad5-6f61e5e94934.html (https://www.normantranscript.com/news/government/senate-narrowly-approves-teacher-raise-package/article_9403013b-4f74-5f48-8ad5-6f61e5e94934.html)

Oklahoma's is still among the bottom 5 states with the worst in teacher pay @$46,301; several states in that bottom five have increase teacher salaries for 2018.



almost every teacher I know is a hard 'no' on increasing teacher pay via sales taxes, which hurts the poorest Oklahomans more.  Teachers are empathetic if nothing else.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 04, 2018, 06:20:04 pm
Public education is one of those necessary evils. It's an antiquated system not well suited for the modern world (from a financial sense). I am for the teacher raises and spending more on education as long as there are real results and it improves the state's reputation nationwide. All of these negative things you hear about education in Oklahoma are derived from one statistic, that we spend less per student than most states. This doesn't even necessarily say anything about the quality of our education, only that we spend less. Then you get some crazy liberal news outlets to jump on the story to try and paint a picture of "Republican stronghold of Oklahoma failing because of Republican policies and spending less than other states".

I graduated high school from Owasso. Within my graduating class, we had one of the highest amounts of national merit scholars for one school in the nation. We competed nationally (and successfully) in debate, band, choir, etc. ACT scores and college admission were well above national average. My point being that state spending per pupil doesn't really matter, at least not in a suburban setting. Rural is a different story since there is less property tax, but even then if you have a curriculum to go by and proper supplies then anyone could teach at a high school level.

Unfortunately there is a negative perception of Oklahoma due to our conservative leanings and if spending more on education will solve that (it won't) then so be it. Stitt said he's for giving teachers pay raises, but said the most recent one was the wrong way to go about it.

I don't pretend to know what the solution is. I just wish people would calm down and realize that more spending doesn't always mean better results.


Spending less than ALL states.


Public education does have problems.  Still waiting for some solution that is better.  Kinda like democracy - the worst system in the world - except for all the others.



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on December 04, 2018, 06:21:07 pm
I'm not quite sure how a discussion over teacher salaries registers with George Kaiser and his philanthropy but I think this has strayed well enough off topic.

But as long as we are here in a time-honored tradition of our thread drift:
 
Great new taproom!




Sweet!!



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: TheArtist on December 04, 2018, 06:22:44 pm
Public education is one of those necessary evils. It's an antiquated system not well suited for the modern world (from a financial sense). I am for the teacher raises and spending more on education as long as there are real results and it improves the state's reputation nationwide. All of these negative things you hear about education in Oklahoma are derived from one statistic, that we spend less per student than most states. This doesn't even necessarily say anything about the quality of our education, only that we spend less. Then you get some crazy liberal news outlets to jump on the story to try and paint a picture of "Republican stronghold of Oklahoma failing because of Republican policies and spending less than other states".

I graduated high school from Owasso. Within my graduating class, we had one of the highest amounts of national merit scholars for one school in the nation. We competed nationally (and successfully) in debate, band, choir, etc. ACT scores and college admission were well above national average. My point being that state spending per pupil doesn't really matter, at least not in a suburban setting. Rural is a different story since there is less property tax, but even then if you have a curriculum to go by and proper supplies then anyone could teach at a high school level.

Unfortunately there is a negative perception of Oklahoma due to our conservative leanings and if spending more on education will solve that (it won't) then so be it. Stitt said he's for giving teachers pay raises, but said the most recent one was the wrong way to go about it.

I don't pretend to know what the solution is. I just wish people would calm down and realize that more spending doesn't always mean better results.

I think you are missing a big component of schools.  The parents.

Many kids simply do not have anyone in their lives that could be called capable and good.  Often just the opposite.

Know someone that recently has become a teacher.  Every time I see them I hear stories like... The little girl who is starving herself to death, lips purple, almost passing out in class, etc. and the parent refusing to see there is a problem. Parents getting angry at the teacher, and even threatening if anything is said about the student. Kids who are clearly traumatized by their home environments.  Yelling and screaming parents dragging their kids away in the parking lot. A teacher yelling back to stop and the parent screaming and cussing the teacher out. Kids who miss many many days of school and the parents who don't care and get angry again if you say anything and teachers in all of these situations and more wondering if they say anything will that child suffer even more at the hands of terrible parents who they have just made angry. Kids who have lousy clothes and wear the same outfit over and over and one parent brings in some clothes to the school and tells the teacher not to let the other parent know for they will get angry.  I could go on and on about the horror stories I hear, some I can't even say on here. Its often the children from the poorest families, that need the most help and who get the least. And the cycle goes on. These kids do not grow up to be capable people, and they then have kids.  



Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Laramie on December 05, 2018, 03:55:44 pm
TheArtist:

That's the story of every teacher who is passionate about the profession.  They often dig deep into they own pockets for supplies and necessities needed to achieve the learning goal.  It's difficult to do on an Oklahoma teacher salary.

We all agree that something has to be done.  Oklahoma ranks in the middle of the pack (20-30) in many categories; why are we in the bottom-of-the-barrel when it come to education.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Rattle Trap on December 10, 2018, 08:49:38 pm
https://m.chron.com/business/article/Oklahoma-s-Future-Rests-in-the-Hands-of-Two-13453843.php

I stumbled upon this article and thought it was really interesting. Push the politics aside, it highlights what Kaiser has done for Tulsa and many of the positive things happening in the city and state as a whole.

It's unfortunate Harold hamm isn't quite as generous as Kaiser.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Laramie on December 11, 2018, 10:44:18 am
https://m.chron.com/business/article/Oklahoma-s-Future-Rests-in-the-Hands-of-Two-13453843.php

I stumbled upon this article and thought it was really interesting. Push the politics aside, it highlights what Kaiser has done for Tulsa and many of the positive things happening in the city and state as a whole.

It's unfortunate Harold hamm isn't quite as generous as Kaiser.

Impressive article, good find Rattle Trap.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: patric on December 11, 2018, 11:01:18 am

It's unfortunate Harold hamm isn't quite as generous as Kaiser.


Some are givers, some are receivers. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/oil-magnate-and-trump-friend-harold-hamm-expected-to-be-cramers-finance-chair-should-he-launch-senate-bid/2018/02/14/5548ae90-11aa-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Laramie on December 11, 2018, 11:54:10 am
Some are givers, some are receivers.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/oil-magnate-and-trump-friend-harold-hamm-expected-to-be-cramers-finance-chair-should-he-launch-senate-bid/2018/02/14/5548ae90-11aa-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html

Let's not forget:

His younger wife took him to the cleaners - Harold Hamm's $975 Million Divorce Check: First Rejected, Then Cashed, Now Taxed:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/01/10/harold-hamms-975-million-divorce-check-first-rejected-then-cashed-now-taxed-but-when/#38a65e4077d9 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/01/10/harold-hamms-975-million-divorce-check-first-rejected-then-cashed-now-taxed-but-when/#38a65e4077d9)


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: SXSW on December 11, 2018, 12:42:06 pm
Some interesting blurbs from the article:

Quote
George Kaiser, a 76-year-old Oklahoma banker and oilman giving away almost his entire $10.5 billion fortune, wants higher taxes on his own industry. He’s bankrolling trendy neighborhoods in Tulsa, an early-childhood education program and a movement toward criminal-justice reform. Kaiser says his priority is to wean the state’s economy from “cyclical, commodity-based industry.”

Harold Hamm, founder of Oklahoma City oil-and-gas giant Continental Resources Inc., has fought to keep things as they are: lean budgets, lax environmental regulations and low fossil-fuel levies. With a net worth of $13.8 billion according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he funds the state’s most conservative politicians while arguing for higher taxes on wind turbines sprouting on the rolling hills. Hamm, 72, has promised to donate most of his money to “causes that will enable people with ambition and tenacity to achieve their goals.” So far that’s included millions for research on what he calls the “American energy renaissance”—a doubling of oil production since 2011.

“You couldn't find anybody more different than those two guys,” said Mike Cantrell, a former Continental Resources executive who is president of the Oklahoma Energy Producers Alliance, a group of small oil companies that campaigned for higher taxes to fund education. “They both care a great deal about Oklahoma, and both are tough and brilliant businessmen.”

Quote
The Sooner State and its wind-swept, derrick-dotted plains are a microcosm of America. Millennials and minorities are flocking to its two big cities, propelling the economy even as oil dominates its politics. Now, its two richest billionaires have taken opposite sides in a fight that may decide whether the industry that built their fortunes will define the future. The conflict has been raging all year, including a teacher’s strike, the first tax increase since 1990 and election victories for a swarm of educators. Meanwhile, the state’s economic transformation is accelerating, following trends evident across the country: While rural areas bleed jobs, metro areas like Oklahoma City and Tulsa win new wealth and flashy amenities.


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: BKDotCom on December 11, 2018, 01:47:39 pm
Don't forget to vote
https://www.10best.com/awards/travel/best-new-attraction-2018/a-gathering-place-for-tulsa-tulsa/


Title: Re: George Kaiser and philanthropy...
Post by: Townsend on December 12, 2018, 11:26:40 am
Don't forget to vote
https://www.10best.com/awards/travel/best-new-attraction-2018/a-gathering-place-for-tulsa-tulsa/

"currently ranked 1 of 20."