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Talk About Tulsa => PlaniTulsa & Urban Planning => Topic started by: dsjeffries on June 28, 2010, 04:25:40 pm



Title: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: dsjeffries on June 28, 2010, 04:25:40 pm
The Tulsa World and Tulsa Police Department seem keen on keeping roadway lighting myths alive. Patric, get 'em.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100628_11_0_Amnwow628052
Quote
Crash on dark stretch of Tulsa highway kills man


By MATT BARNARD World Staff Writer
Published: 6/28/2010  6:34 AM
Last Modified: 6/28/2010  5:14 PM

A man who was pushing a stalled car along a dark highway in downtown Tulsa died Sunday night when another vehicle hit him from behind.

Brandon McKinney, 25, and a woman were pushing the 1980s model Chevrolet Caprice, which had run out of gas, along U.S. 75 near the Interstate 244 interchange about 11 p.m.

Streetlights in the area and the car's emergency blinkers were turned off, Cpl. Brandon Disney said.

Another motorist tried to swerve as she approached the car, but couldn't avoid hitting McKinney. The driver – a nurse who was on her way home from work – performed CPR until medics arrived, but McKinney died at the scene, Disney said.

Neither woman was injured and there were no other occupants in the nurse's newer model Chrysler minivan.

Disney said there were no indications that the drivers were impaired and the lack of lighting was a factor in the collision.

Highway lighting is among several city services that have suffered under Tulsa's budget problems.

Mayor Dewey Bartlett has proposed several revenue-building ideas that would keep the lights on, but some city councilors say the plans amount to "double taxation."

The council found money within the budget to pay for most of those services that Bartlett said his ideas would fund, but Bartlett vetoed most of the council's changes.

Bartlett said he supports funding the services, but he objects to the funding sources the council chose — one-time revenue for ongoing services and wages.

The Oklahoma Department of Transportation released the following statement Monday afternoon:

"First and foremost, our thoughts and prayers are with the families who lost a loved one last night. Safety is our first priority, and we are greatly saddened by this tragic accident.

"Although ODOT generally provides funding for construction of highway lighting, local governments, such as the city of Tulsa, have control of operation of the system and its maintenance.

"Although crews have been working in the area to reconstruct major sections of the IDL, lights generally would have been turned off only in areas where traffic was prohibited because of construction work and for very limited periods of time.

"However, in light of this tragic situation we are working with the city of Tulsa to review exactly what happened in this specific incident. The department urges drivers to exercise caution when driving in areas without lighting and to remember to use all tools available to facilitate driver safety."

Dark does NOT mean unsafe. Light does NOT mean safety.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: sgrizzle on June 28, 2010, 04:38:53 pm
If only they would invent some sort of forward facing light that could be installed on the front of vehicles...


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: dsjeffries on June 28, 2010, 04:41:10 pm
If only they would invent some sort of forward facing light that could be installed on the front of vehicles...

Or some kind of flashing device on cars for when they have trouble.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on June 29, 2010, 09:56:38 am
If only they would invent some sort of forward facing light that could be installed on the front of vehicles...

Or some kind of flashing device on cars for when they have trouble.

Ahhh, An oasis of common sense (if not dry wit...)
My letter to the council, seen here first:


The city council is under pressure from people expressing their unfounded fears that unlit expressways are dangerous, but stop and think...

The lights on this part of the road were turned off in August of last year, and it took till now, almost a year later, for someone to be able to cite an accident they think might be related to the lights out.

To make the evidence fit their case, the alarmists had to ignore the fact that the victim's vehicle was being pushed along the expressway with out any headlights or emergency flashers that would have made the vehicle visible.
They also had to ignore the scores of similar incidents (many of which were fatal) where pedestrians were struck on expressways with the lights still on, or in broad daylight. 
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=7753.0
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=4110.0

Dont get me wrong, Im strongly in favor of lighting interchanges, ramps and underpasses (that call for extra attention and visual acuity), but to say that lighting every inch of expressway is necessary to prevent the type of accidents that routinely take place in broad daylight, is just beyond absurd.

Just turning on his 4-way flashers would have improved his safety much
more than having a streetlight on overhead.  Dimming the glare from a nearby LED billboard (visible in KOTV's photos) might have also eliminated a deadly distraction.

God help these fear-mongers when they have to drive outside the city limits at night, and discover most of America's highways dont have streetlights...

To the council:  I sympathize that you must endure often passionate calls to act on people's unfounded perceptions and fears, but in this case, before we rob Peter to pay for Paul's paranoia, it would be wise to investigate whether or not this is even a wise financial and safety move.

There is not a credible body of evidence that proves expressway lighting make expressways "safe".  Not in Tulsa, or the U.S., or the rest of the motoring world.
Even FOX23 reported a few months after the lights were turned off that expressway crashes went down slightly, perhaps as a result of people slowing down and paying more attention to their surroundings.
A little research around the world shows similar results, as communities cut back on unnecessary lights to meet their budgets.
Paris saw as much as a 30% drop in crashes after cutting back on unnecessary "continuous lighting", and saved money in the process.

So before we commit to an expense that may actually be a waste of money, the city has the obligation to prove that expressway lights actually provide the safety people claim, and that spending the money on them is a justifiable priority.  Otherwise, simply re-activating an unproven system of mostly cosmetic lighting with the unqualified perception that it will make expressways "safe" would be fiscally irresponsible, and deprive funding for items that truly provide safety. 


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Townsend on June 29, 2010, 10:23:25 am
I have a feeling there will be deaf ears.

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0610/750363.html (http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0610/750363.html)

Quote
Having the lights back on is included in a budget proposal approved by the city council. However, that budget was vetoed last week by mayor Dewey Bartlett. The city council is expected to override that veto during Thursday night's city council meeting.

So they're saying that Dewey Bartlett killed a guy.



Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: waterboy on June 29, 2010, 10:31:03 am
I saw nothing that perpetuated lighting myths in that story. You guys must have read into it your own biases. Funny, media is always considered as promoting biases but that was just a compilation of comments, facts and police reporting.

I have no dog in this race. Common sense says the guy took a huge chance pushing a car with no lights visible. NOt too unheard of though. Common sense also says the car would probably have been more visible had there been street lights as well but no one promises a risk free adventure when driving.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on June 29, 2010, 10:35:22 am
I have no dog in this race. Common sense says the guy took a huge chance pushing a car with no lights visible. NOt too unheard of though. Common sense also says the car would probably have been more visible had there been street lights as well but no one promises a risk free adventure when driving.

That same "common sense" leads people to believe that expressway traffic can see and avoid hazards at expressway speeds, and people often loose their lives as a result, even in daylight.

I have a feeling there will be deaf ears.
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0610/750363.html (http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0610/750363.html)

If the mayor wants to save money wasted on cosmetic safety to spend on real safety, more power to him.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: waterboy on June 29, 2010, 10:36:57 am
Your crusade isn't resonating with me. Common sense rules. I can show you studies that almost all murderers started life drinking milk. We still offer milk to kids.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on June 29, 2010, 10:45:38 am
I saw nothing that perpetuated lighting myths in that story.

Ill add one more thing... if the cost of continuous end-to-end expressway lighting came from the police budget, officers would be a lot more careful about making blanket statements about it, and be doing some real research...   


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Red Arrow on June 29, 2010, 11:38:10 am
Coincidence is not necessarily cause and effect.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: waterboy on June 29, 2010, 01:06:18 pm
Look, when I drive the black highways in rural Kansas, all I see is the white stripes and two headlights coming at me. That's fine cause there isn't much out there and I can deal with it. But to try and stop lighting city expressways to save money is different. More traffic, more idiots, more entrances and exits. Makes sense that any light is better than none doesn't it?


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on June 29, 2010, 02:25:51 pm
Look, when I drive the black highways in rural Kansas, all I see is the white stripes and two headlights coming at me. That's fine cause there isn't much out there and I can deal with it. But to try and stop lighting city expressways to save money is different. More traffic, more idiots, more entrances and exits. Makes sense that any light is better than none doesn't it?

It does make sense to light the entrances and exits, and we should be encouraging that in lieu of an "all or nothing" approach that is too expensive to sustain.

The city intended to just leave interchanges (ramps, exits, etc) on, but the way ODOT built the lighting system was to cut corners, and Public Works would have to go in and isolate some of the circuits.
(Why they havent used part of the last year to at least attempt that I really dont know).

Ideally, the interchanges should be on a different circuit from the straightaways, so you can control them independently.  Any competent electrician could do it...

But back to the point:  Straightaways shouldnt need lighting, that's what retro-reflective lines, markers and signs are for.  You light up interchanges to draw attention to the increased hazards and assist in seeing them.
You can operate an "Interchange-Only" system at a fraction of the cost of a "Continuous" system (that we are used to having), and it would actually be safer.

When Tulsa turned off portions of it's system, it was done sloppily because of the way the segments were wired.  Re-wire the segments and you have expressway lights where you actually need them, and a system that costs less to operate.  Sound better?


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: custosnox on June 29, 2010, 03:00:33 pm
Look, when I drive the black highways in rural Kansas, all I see is the white stripes and two headlights coming at me. That's fine cause there isn't much out there and I can deal with it. But to try and stop lighting city expressways to save money is different. More traffic, more idiots, more entrances and exits. Makes sense that any light is better than none doesn't it?
I think one of the biggest problems Patric has with the lighting systems is that often it is considered "better" then nothing, even when the lighting can create a more limited field of view if not properly done (what is in the light can be seen, but if it is outside of the light your screwed).  More is not always better.  On a clear night with a full moon, if I'm out away from the city, I actually prefer to drive without headlights because I can see better.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: waterboy on June 29, 2010, 04:30:06 pm
It does make sense to light the entrances and exits, and we should be encouraging that in lieu of an "all or nothing" approach that is too expensive to sustain.

The city intended to just leave interchanges (ramps, exits, etc) on, but the way ODOT built the lighting system was to cut corners, and Public Works would have to go in and isolate some of the circuits.
(Why they havent used part of the last year to at least attempt that I really dont know).

Ideally, the interchanges should be on a different circuit from the straightaways, so you can control them independently.  Any competent electrician could do it...

But back to the point:  Straightaways shouldnt need lighting, that's what retro-reflective lines, markers and signs are for.  You light up interchanges to draw attention to the increased hazards and assist in seeing them.
You can operate an "Interchange-Only" system at a fraction of the cost of a "Continuous" system (that we are used to having), and it would actually be safer.

When Tulsa turned off portions of it's system, it was done sloppily because of the way the segments were wired.  Re-wire the segments and you have expressway lights where you actually need them, and a system that costs less to operate.  Sound better?

Yes. That is a defensible position that I can agree with.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: nathanm on June 29, 2010, 07:37:26 pm
On a clear night with a full moon, if I'm out away from the city, I actually prefer to drive without headlights because I can see better.
Which works great until someone else comes along and doesn't see you...  :P

I do also find the full moon to be plenty of light to see, though. I don't get people's obsession with streetlights. Even interchange lighting on expressways can make it hard to see past the end of the lit area. On surface streets, corner lighting just makes for midblock blind spots.

In more dense and pedestrian friendly areas, I'm all for ample lighting. Pedestrians don't generally have headlamps and lit up businesses can create deep shadows, making it hard to see. In residential neighborhoods and more car-oriented areas, that's not usually an issue because the lighting is less intense or set back from the road/sidewalk, making it less blinding.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: custosnox on June 29, 2010, 07:47:00 pm
Which works great until someone else comes along and doesn't see you...  :P

I do also find the full moon to be plenty of light to see, though. I don't get people's obsession with streetlights. Even interchange lighting on expressways can make it hard to see past the end of the lit area. On surface streets, corner lighting just makes for midblock blind spots.

I just said headlights.  I keep the marker lights on.  Of course, I turn the headlights back on when I see other headlights anyhow.  Not that I find myself out on open stretches of road, away from city lights, on a cloudless night with a full moon very often.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on July 01, 2010, 08:48:35 am
Now only a few days later, and someone dies on an expressway right underneath a working streetlight, and no uninformed comments from "authorities" about how that light would have saved his life...

(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/12739660_BG1.jpg)


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Hoss on July 01, 2010, 09:17:26 am
Now only a few days later, and someone dies on an expressway right underneath a working streetlight, and no uninformed comments from "authorities" about how that light would have saved his life...

(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/12739660_BG1.jpg)

apples/oranges Patric.

Occupant killed in this accident.

Pedestrian (well, someone pushing a vehicle) killed in the other.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: dbacks fan on July 01, 2010, 09:39:35 am
I enlarged the pic from KTUL and if you notice there is no front tire on the left side.

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/wreck2.jpg)

This may have happened before or after, but seeing almost a bare wheel I would tend to think a blowout caused the accident and nothing to do with overhead lighting.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Conan71 on July 01, 2010, 09:51:44 am
Or considering it was 2:20 am it's plausible he might have been drinking prior to the crash.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Townsend on July 01, 2010, 09:57:06 am
Or considering it was 2:20 am it's plausible he might have been drinking prior to the crash.

And drawn like a moth to the one lit highway light.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: dbacks fan on July 01, 2010, 09:57:37 am
Or considering it was 2:20 am it's plausible he might have been drinking prior to the crash.

No disagreement from me. It could very well be a combination of tire failure, speed, driver impairment, and from the update on TW his head hit the barrier which resulted in death whic may indicated his was not wearing a seatbelt which allowed the upper portion of his body to go through the window of the truck.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on July 01, 2010, 12:37:03 pm
apples/oranges Patric.
Occupant killed in this accident.
Pedestrian (well, someone pushing a vehicle) killed in the other.

I see your point, but I also know it's summer and people will be either walking down or crossing expressways under the lights with greater frequency, and loose their lives because they thought the lights would make it easier for 65mph expressway traffic to avoid them.  It wont get the media play it would have if it occurred on a darkened expressway because it doesnt validate the fear-mongers.   

I'd like to see the city council get an earnest study of crashes and auto-peds, comparing daylight, lighted and un-lit conditions, so they could see firsthand if a knee-jerk reaction of just turning on everything is either a good investment or in the best safety interests of Tulsans.
Then I'd like to have them get Public Works on the ball and correct the bad wiring that's supposed to separate the interchanges and ramps (which should be lit) from the straightaways (which should not be lit), so that the lights we do turn on are actually the ones we need.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Hoss on July 01, 2010, 01:30:57 pm
I see your point, but I also know it's summer and people will be either walking down or crossing expressways under the lights with greater frequency, and loose their lives because they thought the lights would make it easier for 65mph expressway traffic to avoid them.  It wont get the media play it would have if it occurred on a darkened expressway because it doesnt validate the fear-mongers.   

I'd like to see the city council get an earnest study of crashes and auto-peds, comparing daylight, lighted and un-lit conditions, so they could see firsthand if a knee-jerk reaction of just turning on everything is either a good investment or in the best safety interests of Tulsans.
Then I'd like to have them get Public Works on the ball and correct the bad wiring that's supposed to separate the interchanges and ramps (which should be lit) from the straightaways (which should not be lit), so that the lights we do turn on are actually the ones we need.

Not saying I disagree with you Patric...all I was saying is that you can't compare the two incidents to make your point valid.  If it had been a drunk jogging in the IDL...sure.

 ;D


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 01, 2010, 01:42:10 pm
Fwiw, my sister lives in los ranchos (town sorrounded by albuquerque), the town banned street lights... its fantastic.    :)


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: waterboy on July 01, 2010, 03:02:09 pm
Wasn't that more about light pollution in the desert sky than safety?


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on July 01, 2010, 03:14:50 pm
Wasn't that more about light pollution in the desert sky than safety?

I think your right, but it further busted the myth that streetlights were necessary for safety.
...and while something like that might be appropriate for some areas of Tulsa, it isnt for others.
Downtown would be a real drag without the ability to see, and well-planned lighting adds a lot to better utilization of public areas.

While some areas you would never dream of having dark, it seems no amount of lighting is going to "fix" places like 61st and Peoria.  Reducing the glare might benefit the watchfulness of neighbors and police, though...


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: everelusive on September 28, 2010, 04:42:06 pm
I think that all driving at night should be outlawed.  Just think, if no one drove at night no one could ever die in a nocturnal car crash!  Think of the lives that would be saved!  Or better yet, no driving, at all, ever, for anyone.  Traffic deaths would plummet and everyone would be so safe.  The criminals would stick out like a sore thumb because they would be the only ones on the road, mabey then the police could actually PREVENT crime.  I feel safer just thinking about it.   ;)


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Red Arrow on September 28, 2010, 07:55:21 pm
I think that all driving at night should be outlawed.  Just think, if no one drove at night no one could ever die in a nocturnal car crash!  Think of the lives that would be saved!  Or better yet, no driving, at all, ever, for anyone.  Traffic deaths would plummet and everyone would be so safe.  The criminals would stick out like a sore thumb because they would be the only ones on the road, mabey then the police could actually PREVENT crime.  I feel safer just thinking about it.   ;)

And, since most accidents happen at home, we could prevent people from going home.  Think of the injuries we could prevent.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on July 12, 2011, 12:33:53 pm
I think one of the biggest problems Patric has with the lighting systems is that often it is considered "better" then nothing, even when the lighting can create a more limited field of view if not properly done (what is in the light can be seen, but if it is outside of the light your screwed).  More is not always better. 

It would be interesting, a year later, to look at the numbers now, and compare them to the periods with lights on vs lights off.
...cause you know accidents on expressways were eliminated as soon as the lights came back on  ;)
 
The accident figures didnt show any difference with the lights off, but it was unwarranted public fears that prevailed nevertheless. 

At least someone at the TW had a sensible view:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=61&articleid=20091101_213_G1_During741655&archive=yes


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on October 26, 2011, 09:32:17 pm
OHP says the man, in his 50s, may be homeless, and was trying to cross the highway on foot.
"The initial vehicle [that hit the man] pulled over, a second car came along, hit the pedestrian again, lost control, then hit the first car."
The man was pronounced dead at the scene.


Where are the people now who said having expressway lights on would prevent these things from happening?
Do you suppose it might have even been the brightly-lighted expressway that gave this man a false sense of security with regard to deciding to cross it?

(http://www.fox23.com/media/lib/13/8/4/4/84434a3a-03c0-49d6-b13f-4fa8b093b66e/Original.jpg)

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Man-dies-along-Interstate-244-near-Memorial/g7001w7O0U-uMrpiTq1MxA.cspx


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: godboko71 on October 27, 2011, 01:35:14 pm
While I hate lights on the highway, this is most likely really called suicide. I would rather have no lights then the crap we use.

Sad a man is dead, just being realistic to the reason :/


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: custosnox on October 27, 2011, 04:00:10 pm
While I hate lights on the highway, this is most likely really called suicide. I would rather have no lights then the crap we use.

Sad a man is dead, just being realistic to the reason :/
and that is why he was hit by at 8 cars?
http://www.newson6.com/story/15885510/homeless-man-crossing-i-244-in-tulsa-struck-killed-by-multiple-cars


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on April 19, 2012, 12:02:31 pm
I would rather have no lights then the crap we use.

Another pedestrian killed on one of the brightest-lighted parts of the expressway.
(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/17551812_BG2.jpg)
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Police-identify-man-killed-on-BA-Expressway/U7uWL7YGS0qmHKTHd4BrGQ.cspx


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Conan71 on April 19, 2012, 12:09:14 pm
I doubt lighting one way or the other affected the outcome here.  People aren’t usually expecting to encounter a drunk staggering around the highway at 10pm.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on April 19, 2012, 02:10:06 pm
I doubt lighting one way or the other affected the outcome here.  People aren’t usually expecting to encounter a drunk staggering around the highway at 10pm.

I believe you are right, but I also believe that if the lights were still out, some imbecile would cite that as the cause.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on August 12, 2013, 12:04:11 pm
If only they would invent some sort of forward facing light that could be installed on the front of vehicles...



(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/23104368_BG2.jpg)

Listen to the spokesperson's speculation at a fatality accident:
http://www.newson6.com/story/23104368/tulsa-police

You would think the bodies just pile up where the streetlights run out.
OTOH, transitioning from a brightly-lighted area to an unlighted one can leave you visually impaired, but the problem might have more to do with how the brightly-lighted area is lit, rather than the unlit area.  If I were to speculate, I'd be looking at the glare as a culprit.

If you are going northbound, you encounter at least one bright billboard directly in your line of sight, as well as the high-mast interchange lighting (bluish lights) at 75 and Apache.  

http://goo.gl/maps/aXX0H

ODOT was using shielded (low-glare Full Cutoff) lights for a while, then went back to the high-glare non-cutoff lights (like you see on the I-44 reconstruction), so why the big step backward?


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 12, 2013, 12:53:44 pm
Coming home about 10:30 pm last week, driving down the fairly heavily lit street that leads to neighborhood at about 20 mph...thought I saw a movement, and sure enough, as I got closer, there was a guy standing literally in the middle of the road, straddling his bicycle, leaning over messing with the pedal.  No lights.  Very dark clothes.  No reflectors.  Just standing there on the dashed white line.  Ignoring everything around him.  I had a quick flash of the thought "evolution in action"....   I missed him.  Didn't even look up as I drove by.  Very, very stupid.

I think what I saw was a flash of motion from the 'backlighting' in the zone, so in this case, a good amount of lighting was very good.




Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on August 12, 2013, 02:35:16 pm
Coming home about 10:30 pm last week, driving down the fairly heavily lit street that leads to neighborhood at about 20 mph...thought I saw a movement, and sure enough, as I got closer, there was a guy standing literally in the middle of the road, straddling his bicycle, leaning over messing with the pedal.  No lights.  Very dark clothes.  No reflectors.  Just standing there on the dashed white line.  Ignoring everything around him.  I had a quick flash of the thought "evolution in action"....   I missed him.  Didn't even look up as I drove by.  Very, very stupid.

I think what I saw was a flash of motion from the 'backlighting' in the zone, so in this case, a good amount of lighting was very good.

He may have assumed that you cold see him because there was some street lighting present.  This is often a fatal mistake, but since I dont know what location you are referring to I cant make an honest comparison to the fatality on highway 75.

When a city installs street lighting (good or bad) they assume more liability than if they hadn't.  If a light or lights "failed to come on" the city can be sued if there is an accident.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 12, 2013, 06:02:33 pm
He may have assumed that you cold see him because there was some street lighting present.  This is often a fatal mistake, but since I dont know what location you are referring to I cant make an honest comparison to the fatality on highway 75.

When a city installs street lighting (good or bad) they assume more liability than if they hadn't.  If a light or lights "failed to come on" the city can be sued if there is an accident.

He was almost exactly in the middle space between two lights - darkest area possible for the street, but there was peripheral lighting around so that he could have thought he was visible.  The big problem was that he was just parked in the middle of the road, and didn't move to the side.  Even after I had passed him and continued about 1/4 mile further on.  I could see his "shadow" in the backlight behind him....
 
Crazy.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Ed W on August 12, 2013, 07:07:08 pm
If I recall right, Oklahoma changed the law regarding bicycle lighting perhaps 6 or 8 years ago. Bicycles are not required to have lights on streets with a 25 mph limit or less. I don't remember if reflectors are required on such streets. Our lawmakers reasoned that neighborhood traffic was limited  and the reduced speed was sufficient for safety. I disagreed and the OBC formally objected to the change. Real bicyclists, of course, were ignored.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on August 14, 2013, 10:03:30 am
He was almost exactly in the middle space between two lights - darkest area possible for the street, but there was peripheral lighting around so that he could have thought he was visible.  The big problem was that he was just parked in the middle of the road, and didn't move to the side.  Even after I had passed him and continued about 1/4 mile further on.  I could see his "shadow" in the backlight behind him....

You are describing "negative contrast"
(http://www.visualexpert.com/images3/contrastpolarity.jpg)
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/pedestrian.html

Along the same lines, some people think that streetlights are necessary to see painted lines on the road, which is sometimes true, but not for the reason they believe.   Retro-reflective markings (like lines or reflective signs) reflect light back from the direction it came.  When light from a streetlight intersects with a painted line on the road, you might see the line by it's lack of reflectivity as compared to the shiny road surface.  That's also negative contrast.  

Negative contrast is figured in to a properly designed streetlight system, and is most effective if the streetlights are shielded so that the eye is not hampered by the disabling glare of an unshielded source.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 14, 2013, 01:27:16 pm
You are describing "negative contrast"
(http://www.visualexpert.com/images3/contrastpolarity.jpg)
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/pedestrian.html

Along the same lines, some people think that streetlights are necessary to see painted lines on the road, which is sometimes true, but not for the reason they believe.   Retro-reflective markings (like lines or reflective signs) reflect light back from the direction it came.  When light from a streetlight intersects with a painted line on the road, you might see the line by it's lack of reflectivity as compared to the shiny road surface.  That's also negative contrast.  

Negative contrast is figured in to a properly designed streetlight system, and is most effective if the streetlights are shielded so that the eye is not hampered by the disabling glare of an unshielded source.

The view transitioned from photo 1 to photo 2, then back as I passed.  And both those pictures are taken with the "movie magic effect" of having the streets wet.  These were dry, reducing that line of light to a dim blur - more realistic most of the time.

The lights also did not line up nicely like in photo 1.  One light was to the left (400 feet or so away), with a second a couple hundred feet further, on the right.  If I get the chance, I may go by there again this week and if so, will try to take a picture.

Painted lines - brings us to another horrible situation in Tulsa (and many of the surrounding towns) - lack of adequate line maintenance.  It is pathetic that the lines are so terribly worn down around town, and no maintenance being done.




Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Weatherdemon on August 15, 2013, 01:05:25 pm
The view transitioned from photo 1 to photo 2, then back as I passed.  And both those pictures are taken with the "movie magic effect" of having the streets wet.  These were dry, reducing that line of light to a dim blur - more realistic most of the time.

The lights also did not line up nicely like in photo 1.  One light was to the left (400 feet or so away), with a second a couple hundred feet further, on the right.  If I get the chance, I may go by there again this week and if so, will try to take a picture.

Painted lines - brings us to another horrible situation in Tulsa (and many of the surrounding towns) - lack of adequate line maintenance.  It is pathetic that the lines are so terribly worn down around town, and no maintenance being done.


The lines in most places haven't touched in many areas in and around Tulsa since they were scraped off during the double blizzard winter of 2011-2012.

Until they began demolition of the 244 bridge, those lines were there but impossible to see if it was raining and that was the black/white style and street lights. I thought I was going blind and asked my kids if they could see the lines. Their answer? "Dad, there aren't any lines on this part of the street."


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: PonderInc on October 04, 2013, 01:10:46 pm
If you want a real-life example of how bad lighting makes it HARDER to see pedestrians, just drive around TU on a busy night when students are out and about.  The super-bright acorn lights shine light in all directions except down.  With the overly bright lights shining in your eyes, it's almost impossible to see people walking on sidewalks or crossing streets because they are in the "shadows" of the light source. You eyes are essentially blinded to everything except the overly bright light source.  It's shocking.  Pedestrians seemingly pop out of nowhere...despite all the lights that are  supposedly there for student safety.  (Or just b/c the TU trustees think acorn lights look pretty in the daytime...)

It's similar to the feeling you get when you're walking on a sidewalk or street facing traffic at night.  When car headlights shine in your eyes, you suddenly can't see the pavement in front of your feet. 


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: Cetary on January 02, 2014, 07:33:16 pm
 :o Wow. I'm surprised that there are lighting systems for freeways that extensive outside of Las Vegas. By the lights' NEMA wattage stickers it seems each light is pulling a big 200 watts before energy losses in the ballast.

http://goo.gl/maps/t3I1p

http://goo.gl/maps/OM1Fk

http://goo.gl/maps/35RFK

and the highway billboards are lit to...

http://goo.gl/maps/A69dL

though the NEMA sticker isn't visible, those floodlights in their mercury vapor form typically consume a 'cool' 80 watts each.

http://goo.gl/maps/gtgvJ
 
    Now I see what you meant by expensive expressway lights. You could run a whole handful of the more kosher 'street lights' each pulling 50~100 watts a piece for the power of a single expressway light.

   You may like the typical Caltrans setup. Caltrans only lights on and off ramps and interchanges as well as signs. The typical lighting for on and off ramps is always full cut off or shielded lights, typically HPS, with 2~3 approach lights for merging off and 1~2 departure lights for merging back on.

http://goo.gl/maps/GpQ70

http://goo.gl/maps/8Ko9W

Interchanges can vary in the number of their 'approach-departure' lights, but they certainly don't extend for miles.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on January 02, 2014, 08:22:18 pm
Caltrans only lights on and off ramps and interchanges as well as signs. The typical lighting for on and off ramps is always full cut off or shielded lights, typically HPS, with 2~3 approach lights for merging off and 1~2 departure lights for merging back on.

It's called "Interchange-Only" lighting where only those parts that need to be lit, are.

That's opposed to the "Continuous Lighting" method that pedestrians find so inviting.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: PonderInc on January 03, 2014, 02:05:31 pm
As a kid, I remember the surprise when my family drove through Indianapolis at night.  We all laughed b/c the expressways were so brightly lit.  We joked that they wanted to be able to race the Indianapolis 500 on the expressways at night.  It was really weird, around 1980 to see this phenomena.  It seemed ridiculous.  I wonder if it's still like that, or if they realized that was overkill?


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on February 12, 2014, 12:03:24 pm
I do also find the full moon to be plenty of light to see, though. I don't get people's obsession with streetlights. Even interchange lighting on expressways can make it hard to see past the end of the lit area. On surface streets, corner lighting just makes for midblock blind spots.

In more dense and pedestrian friendly areas, I'm all for ample lighting. Pedestrians don't generally have headlamps and lit up businesses can create deep shadows, making it hard to see. In residential neighborhoods and more car-oriented areas, that's not usually an issue because the lighting is less intense or set back from the road/sidewalk, making it less blinding.

No argument that municipal lighting can serve a beneficial purpose, it's just we sometimes loose focus of what that purpose is.
Municipal lighting extends the city's life after sundown.  It helps us navigate streets and curbs, avoid hazards and identify threats, which is all the more reason why it must be done right.  

Yet, some people still insist it's the Wolf-bane that will drive away crime, or bet their lives on the "any light is good light" approach as they step out onto a street or expressway.   Folks are figuring out "the right light for the right reason" at a snails pace, but it's still progress:


"The connection between light and crime may not be what most of us think it is, but the connection between light and our sense of safety is exactly what it's always been."
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/housing/2014/02/street-lights-and-crime-seemingly-endless-debate/8359/


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 30, 2014, 07:54:09 pm
:o Wow. I'm surprised that there are lighting systems for freeways that extensive outside of Las Vegas. By the lights' NEMA wattage stickers it seems each light is pulling a big 200 watts before energy losses in the ballast.


I haven't been able to find an inductive ballast for years - even in some larger commercial lights.  If they are all electronic, they will be about 90 to 95% efficient...maybe 20 watts heat losses....?



Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on June 30, 2014, 10:54:33 pm
I know there have been TPD officers in the past that understand security lighting well enough to give meaningful, useful advice... I just dont know where they are right now with regard to the current panic about a serial fondler on the loose.  Media have been tightly managed with this one, but seriously, how hard is it to give an example of good lighting when recommending "good lighting"?

The Chief, about 12 minutes in:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOiyCG0knXA[/youtube]

PIO, about 50 seconds in:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY0iRuIwPnw[/youtube]

The message:  Light it up! 
Seems simple enough, but how effective is your neighbor's watchfulness going to be when your new super security blaster all-night floodlight is so annoying and blinding they have to shutter their windows?

Motion detectors?  They attract attention, but not when they are set off by every passing car or neighbors cat.

Sometimes good advice can be badly given.


Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: patric on August 09, 2015, 11:29:57 pm
A Bixby neighborhood is having a rash of thefts from people entering open garages.
Police Cpl. Michael Konshack advises "Have all of your exterior lights on. Lights are a big thing."

Now all he has to do is explain how that prevents the daytime burglaries.


http://www.fox23.com/videos/news/video-bixby-police-increase-patrols-in/vDYSpF/





Title: Re: TW & TPD Perpetuate Lighting Myths
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on August 10, 2015, 01:53:05 pm
A Bixby neighborhood is having a rash of thefts from people entering open garages.
Police Cpl. Michael Konshack advises "Have all of your exterior lights on. Lights are a big thing."

Now all he has to do is explain how that prevents the daytime burglaries.


http://www.fox23.com/videos/news/video-bixby-police-increase-patrols-in/vDYSpF/






BA has been having a lot of that, too.   Had a guy walk about two steps into my garage one time, caught sight of me, then instantly reversed direction.  Keep garage doors closed, and front doors locked.  Always!  Even when you are there.