The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

New group puts forth plan for East Village

(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100502_A1_A1talaas0502.jpg)

An ambitious redevelopment proposal for the east side of downtown is in the works.

Local developers behind the project — called Talaas, a derivative of the Creek Indian word for Tulsa — say they believe the estimated $400 million, mixed-use redevelopment could become another critical link in the efforts to revitalize downtown.

Talaas would encompass about 49 acres bounded by U.S. 75 to the east, the Blue Dome District to the west, Sixth Street to the south, and the Greenwood District to the north.

It's not the first large mixed-use redevelopment proposed for the area commonly known as the East Village, but those who are familiar with Talaas say it has the potential to be the one that sticks.

"Tulsans have invested a lot in the downtown area with the BOK Center and ONEOK Field, along with what is going on in the Brady and Blue Dome districts, and we believe this would be the connectivity that further ties everything together," said Chuck Tollefsen, the founder of Formaation LLC, which conceived Talaas.

Formaation is teaming up with Matrix Architects and Flintco Construction, two local firms that were involved with the BOK Center, and Gensler, a global architecture, design, planning and consulting firm with its headquarters in San Francisco.

Although a range of affordable to luxury residential lofts and brownstones would dominate Talaas, other elements proposed within it include office and retail space, a boutique hotel, a grocery market fed by local gardens, a small entertainment area and meandering green space.

Another proposed feature is a streetcar that would stretch along Second Street, linking Talaas to the BOK Center.

Although city approval would be needed for installation of the needed rails, the developers would pay the estimated $7 million cost, and the streetcar would be free to ride.

Site competition
Before Formaation can proceed, it needs to acquire all of the land it wants for the project, including several parcels owned by the Tulsa Development Authority.

Formaation isn't the only group interested in the authority's properties, which include a large parcel where the vacant Hartford Building sits at Second Street and Greenwood Avenue, along with parking areas to the east and north.

There also are two smaller vacant areas to the south — one directly across the street between Second and Third streets, and the other at Third Street and Frankfort Avenue.

The Ross Group, a general contractor, wants to purchase and reconstruct the Hartford Building as a certified "green" 60,000-square-foot building that would house 100 employees.

Land Legacy, a nonprofit organization, wants the authority's two smaller vacant sites south of Second Street for an urban park.

The three entities are to present their plans to the authority Thursday.

Tollefsen said that if the authority chooses Talaas, he would encourage Ross Group and Land Legacy to participate in it.

The Ross Group declined comment, but Land Legacy Executive Director Robert Gregory said his group was very interested in working with Formaation to accomplish his group's goal of providing urban parks.

A master-plan approach:
Tollefsen said Talaas was the only one of the prospects that offers a design scheme for the entire redevelopment area.

County Commissioner Karen Keith, who is spearheading an effort for a new $50 million juvenile justice center campus on the west side of downtown, said she was excited about Talaas.

"My hope is that the authority considers a master-plan approach to the redevelopment of that area, versus just piece-mealing it together," she said.

Keith believes that Talaas brings "the real ability to make this happen in a cohesive manner that creates this wonderful urban neighborhood," she said.

Creative financing:
Tollefsen said funding for Talaas would not take the typical path in which the developer attempts to finance the full $400 million.

Instead, the group will finance the project in pieces, using federal incentives to lower costs, he said.

"I'm very familiar and have been successful for the past 25 years in obtaining these government-backed loans," he said.

Some of the incentives can cut costs by 25 percent for commercial structures, he said.

When the 60 percent reduction in energy costs is added, "it makes good economic sense" for investors, he said.

Formaation also would seek tax increment financing for seven years to start the project. Downtown TIFs have historically run for 15 years.

A TIF district allows a city to capture increased tax revenues from the district to fund public improvements to enhance reinvestment and spur redevelopment in the district.

"Our success is going to come from our ability to lower cost by blending these traditional federal government financing programs with the uniqueness of this urban development," Tollefsen said.

Something for everyone:
Although Talaas will have some residential and commercial space for lease, the rest of the project will encourage ownership, Tollefsen said.

He stressed that it would have lofts, with affordable rents that would cater to students and service workers, and higher-end brownstones, for purchase by professionals and empty-nesters, who no longer want to have to maintain a home and a yard.

The project also incorporates parking, Tollefsen said. Subsurface parking is planned for office and residential space, with street parking for easy access to retail space.

Tollefsen said the project also was designed to attract small businesses that would like to own their property, while leaving room for larger commercial and entertainment venues.

"Basically, we have the master plan and design elements of how the pieces fit together," he said.

"We act as the catalyst, and it's Tulsa business owners and residents that pull it together."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302)

Will be interesting to see the plans they present on Thursday.  At this point though I am highly cautious of getting any hopes up for yet another plan/proposal lol.  I will believe it when I see it.  SOMETHING will stick in this area eventually.  I think people do realize the potential of the area and the demographic needs for some type of really good urban development.  Its interesting to note that a number of the residential developments that have gone up in Brookside and Cherry street, have struggled to find buyers at times.  But whenever something opens up in downtown, it does quite well.  I think there is a large desire to live in downtown, and a lot of people can see the potential for downtown to become a wonderful place.

Oh, and the rail component sounds really neat. 

The development group, Formaation LLC, is located in this building at 3rd & Kenosha:
(http://images.loopnet.com/xnet/mainsite/attachments/viewImage.aspx?FileGuid=4FBBD88E-E3FF-4E2F-9EC3-C9D04232296E&Extension=jpg&Width=631&Height=421)

The fact that Matrix, Flintco, and Gensler are involved give me hope this has the potential to actually happen. 

When I look at the successes and failures of DT Tulsa development..one thing that strikes me is the relatively strong success Tulsa has had with smaller projects, especially as the economy turned "dark and mysterious" it seems. There are so many private development projects going on right now in Brady, Blue Dome, East Village, etc. Then you look at the track record with large projects, and save for One Place which looks hopeful, there had really not been a single major private development that was successful. That's the reality.

If I were TDA, looking at that track record, looking at Formaation's lack of financing.. I would go with the two smaller proposals. At least you get something out of it. Give Formaation a time-limited option for the rest of the land just to make things interesting and give them a chance. They can form their project site plan around Land Legacy's proposal for a park and Ross' concrete plans to redevelop a bldg.

It is very intriguing. I like it all, from the name, to what they're wanting to do, and I especially like the streetcar aspect. It seems like if you do SOME KIND of special transit link between your site and the BOK Center, you're guaranteed some success in the end. And yes, a private developer probably could get a lot of federal help for making a streetcar happen. That's called making it happen yourself, especially after Tulsa has been kicking around the idea of transit for a long time--to no avail. It sounds like he has the right argument for why his development should be successful with its innovative design and reduced energy costs, but history is just against it. Maybe the site is doomed. Piece-meal is much preferred over nothing, sorry Karen Keith.

With TDA involved, I expect something really bizarre and corrupt just around the corner..

Anybody else long for the days when this kind of announcement would've produced three pages of hopeful comments on the Forum by now?

I feel like Artist does...believe it when I see it.

The article seems to hint that the TDA makes it tougher for everyone: 
I hope for success but I'll hold my huzzahs until there's more than just an announcement or even groundbreaking.

Some rebuilt PCC cars would probably fit Tulsa nicely.  Airconditioned, new running gear, 1930s-1940s looks.

http://www.phillytrolley.org/pcc_2320_index.html

I would love to see some "old school" type rail transport, especially if they had some deco flair lol.  The ones OKC has proposed are uninspired and don't warrant a second glance. Tulsa can do better.

I'm surprised no one jumped on to crap all over the tif financing and federal breaks.  Oh I forgot our most knowledgeable real estate expert has been permanently exported from this forum.

Seriously, I like the proposal and if Flintco is in on this it lends major creds to the project.  I think the momentum is there with downtown, I just posted the news of yet one more retailer moving downtown.  An East Village will be a nice tie in from Blue Dome to Greenwood Dist. 

I have to say I'm cautiously optimistic, but now that the ball park is open I think the vibe that only some people were feeling the last few years is becoming visually obvious.

Downtown is back!

Yes, I was wondering why this didn't have more buzz around it on the forum...it has great potential.  Although, as my HS coach used to say "Potential is just a fancy word for hasn't done anything yet".  I think this is why there is less buzz...we have seen so many grand plans/schemes this one is pretty much run of the mill, so why get excited?

I do like the "Talaas" name, although I believe Waterboy would argue with the spelling/origin of the name of Tulsa.  He enlightened me on the rafting trip last year and I have already forgotten...but it had something to do with a combination of 2 Native American word for "caving in" (Tahl) and "riverbanks" (oosa)...or something.  Put em together = Tahl-oosa = Tulsa once it is "anglo-ized" (you get the idea).  Speak up Waterboy and correct me...I found that very intresting (so interesting I remeber bits and pieces only...).

Would love to see this development happen, but won't get real excited until ground breaks, or they have some serious momentum/drawings/timetables showing their hand a little more.  Maybe this comes on Thursday?

Until then, I will continue to hit at least 1 Driller's game per homestand, eat a Chicago Dog and Drink a Marshall's at each game I attend, and try and stop in at one of the bars/restaurants after the game to enjoy our downtown that is ALREADY pretty cool.  Not a big commitment (once every 2 weeks or so), but always a lot of fun and I hope others in Tulsa (even the negative nancies) give the park and downtown a try.  I think the Bedlam Game is going to pretty awesome, and I look forward to seeing fans hang out all over downtown after the game vs hop in their cars and drive home immediately after the game (which is what always happened at the old ballpark).

I would argue the name as well, since until I am shown the way to actual documantation I consider it all speculation.

I hope this does take off, but I don't think I'm going to really comment much more until more movement happens.  That and I have time to actually read all of it and really think on it. 

This is exactly right.  I think everyone is used to these things being nothing more than pretty drawings--it's harder to get excited now.

Still, it's worth figuring out who the folks pushing this thing are.  The principal appears to be this Chuck Tollefsen follow: http://www.formaation.com/Formaation/Home.html.  

Looks like he has already engaged the commenters in the TW forum (scroll down): http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302&archive=yes

Here's an image from his website representing a "sneak peak [sic] of one of the cool areas of a masterplanned development soon to come":

(http://www.formaation.com/Formaation/Development_files/shapeimage_1.png)

Thursday is going to be a very interesting day for Tulsa.  Tollefsen's group along with Ross Group and Land Legacy will be going in front of the TDA and we'll get a clearer picture of what the East Village might look like.  In addition, on the other end of downtown, City Council will vote on whether to sell City Hall/Civic Plaza to the Snyders.  

Getcha popcorn ready . . .

Council needs to "sell" and TDA needs to get it's head out of it's donkey.

Whatever happens I hope it's an extension of what is already occuring in the east end around 3rd & Kenosha.  It feels very organic and hope it stays that way.  Some pics..

Formaation's offices
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic008.jpg)

3rd & Kenosha
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic006.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic007.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic002.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic003.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic004.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic005.jpg)

New office for a local architecture firm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic009.jpg)

KSDG/Micha Alexander's loft proposal
(http://www.kevinstephensdesign.com/images/804third/pic_1h_lg.gif)

for this vacant lot between the two buildings at 3rd & Kenosha
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/pic001.jpg)

And another proposal across the street (I think)
(http://www.kevinstephensdesign.com/images/EastThird/pic_2h_lg.gif)

Local area photographers will be upset if the one empty lot is filled between the two buildings as they use that for wedding and senior pictures. Not that it really matters Iw ould rather see the land put to use more then a few times a week :-P

Cool deal.  These are local folks with local roots.  There are two barriers to their plans: TDA and financing.  Both are formidable.  Probably gonna be a long process, unless somebody knocks some heads (figuratively) over at TDA.  Anyway, looking forward to more details.  The idea of a 3/4 mile free street car line on 2nd street is pretty awesome and makes tons of sense. 

Strange that the hole knocked in this building has been there for over a month.  Perhaps Formaation just secured a lease on the space and the owner has not yet repaired it.  Otherwise.... seems like a bad sign if something this obvious is left unattended.  I'll be interested to find out more about the individuals involved in the proposed development.  

It looked like they were renovating the inside of the retail space at the east end of the building.  And it appeared to me that Formaation takes up the west end, possibly two floors, of this building.  

This building was on sale on craigslist for awhile and that listing showed that the second floor was a residence.

Sorry, I just got around to reading this thread. Flintco is owned by a Creek Indian woman who no doubt believes that Tulsa is named by her tribe. I don't want to make her or other believers in the Creek Council legend mad. Their story is as good as any other! However, years ago someone did some research (I do have it in the files....somewhere) and found a more plausible history of our city's name.

The Cherokee were here before the Creeks (circa 1812-1840) and thus had their own words describing the area. I show people what the river banks look like on this stretch of the Arkansas, especially around the sharp turn it makes by Newblock Park. The banks are steep and frequently cave in to the river carrying trees with them. The area was described by them as "Chusto Talasah", pronounced Oosto Tah la sah. That translates to "river of caving banks" or "place on the river where the banks cave". It easily slurs to Talsah or Tulsa. Much easier than evolving from Tallasee, then Tulsee, then Tulsa many years later.  Historians discarded this theory preferring to believe that the Civil War battle at Chusto Talasah on Bird Creek was what the Cherokees referred to when using these words. However, this research asserts, it was the white man at the time who misintrepreted a description of a river feature rather than the name of a river itself. The battle at Bird Creek occurred then, "on the river where the banks are caving".

Jt, are you and your friend ready to do another trip?

Thanks for sharing that history waterboy.  Makes sense and very interesting.

Well it's a lot easier to put some old kitsch on rails and call it a transit system than it is to pull off modern streetcar. Most people drive newer cars, not refurbished Model Ts..transit systems should be the same way with few exceptions like the St. Charles Streetcar in New Orleans.

Although, of course "The ones OKC has proposed are uninspired and don't warrant a second glace. Tulsa can do better."

Are old-timey streetcars more likely to fill in practical transit purposes as opposed to modern streetcar? That's the bottom line. A streetcar system is a streetcar system, and in most urbanists eyes, the modern ones are a bigger boon than historic replica ones, not to mention more efficient. As someone currently fighting to save a historic bldg in OKC, I really don't think "new development" needs to have a historic motif.

(http://kwtv.images.worldnow.com/images/435313_LA.jpg)

But that's you as an OKC native.  Tulsans, we like that stuff.  Just because it looks old doesn't mean it IS old.

You are wrong. Neither city has even remotely the downtown population density that would require or even make slight use of real railed mass transit within the city core. And won’t have for many years, if ever. Your generic light rail train that’s depicted would actually probably see less ridership than a mostly decorative nostalgic system that would have aesthetic and tourist appeal. And the nostalgic system can still have use as a people mover between two specific points within the core. Both will be almost entirely empty, all the time. I’d rather one that helps create more a sense of place than whatever is depicted in that marketing sham of a photo.
My money is on the rail system in OKC being the victim of “less than anticipated MAPs revenue” anyway. The OKC chamber wanted a new $200 million convention center, and by god they are going to get it, everything else is last, if ever with current tax collections.  Rail was an item tacked on to buy votes. You watch, cost overruns on other projects and low tax collections will kill it. Or at the least delay it 15 years.

My apologies for the "Tulsa can do better" thing.  I should have meant it as in "it would be better imo, for Tulsa".  I may have an opinion about OKC, but ultimately it should do what it thinks is best and head in the direction it wants to.  Having lived in Tulsa most of my life and wanting to have a hand in shaping how parts of it look, feel, and function,,, I would like to see our mass transit options either be ultra modern and very stylish in that way, or retro looking and of course my own bias is for whatever direction have a deco look to it.  I think having the taxis, buses and rail options, especially any that service downtown, have a retro deco feel to them would really help create a chic, stylish and definitely unique sense of place for Tulsa. It could even be as simple as having say a new vehicle be painted black and have silver deco pin-striping and art deco lettering.  There is a lot of new stuff out there, some of it has a deco feel to it, some of it doesnt.  If ya have the chance to choose, I would hope Tulsa would choose something decoish lol.

Look at this truck, its new, but imo very deco...

(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5858/045lonestarhdopt.jpg)

Did a quick look for some new rail options.  This one isnt deco at first blush, but look at those doors.  They have some neat curves that could be further emphasized and made to look very deco with some simple lines painted around them, add some other deco pinstripes and some deco lettering... and voila, contemporary, retro deco.
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/1922/600bombardierstreetcar.jpg)

Even the little T-Town trolley we have now could be made to fit with a black paint job and the right accents and lettering.  Rather than looking like any other typical green trolley.  It could be made to be more memorable and "Tulsa classy and unique".

Its things like this that , help make a place feel different.  When you go some place that has paid attention to such things, it gives you the sense that you are some place thats a step above and special. Like the places you go when your on vacation lol. Wouldnt it be nice if our downtown felt like that.

I actually don't think that the train pictured is all that bad for OKC. For me, OKC's designs (especially with the new Devon Tower) seem to draw on modernism/futurism in design. The train pictured definately fits in that scope. I certainly wish OKC the best on their continued development, and I certainly hope that they are able to continue on their development paths.

For Tulsa, being a distinct city with our own distinct development patterns and history, it shouldn't be a surprise that our development "tastes" are different from OKC. I would second that idea that our streetcars should take on a more "deco" feel. After all, our Art Deco architecture is a big selling point for us. Having a cohesive design plan makes for a more cohesive experience; it is great for livability and tourism.

I think you can do something that respects the Deco architectural tradition while also being modern.  Something streamlined like the red-gray streetcar Artist posted would be very cool and fit in well downtown.  I'll add that will a 2-way 2nd Street streetcar is a great idea I think it would work better and cover more ground to have it go west on 3rd and then east on 2nd. 

I love rail transport but I'm not feelin' the street car on 2nd St. idea.  Outside of occassional ridership during events at the BOK/Conv.Ctr. why is anyone going to ride it assuming it doesn't have 2-5 minute headways - which wouldn't be close to feasible?  If I have to wait 10-15 or more minutes walking out of the Mayo/Crown Plaza/Williams/new apartment at 4th and Cheyenne why would I wait and pay for a very short streetcar ride when I can walk and be in the BD/EV in 10 minutes. 

A streetcar's going to have to connect two activity nodes that aren't easily/quickly accessible on foot and I would rather see it run along a route that had some serious infill potential to feed the line while also serving existing activity.  Run it up and down Beantown and Boulder Avs from the River/Vetrans Park to Brady - shifting over to BD/EV from Boston.

It just doesn't make sense to run a rail down 2nd St. for a very short distance.  It's too easy to walk 7/8 blocks across downtown.

More development plans for the area:

(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100507_A12_a12parcelsoneok05072010.jpg)

Tulsa World: Three Proposal Vying For Parcels (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100507_11_A12_TeTlaD978564")

Swake, Art Deco was initially a very modern style. Today it is reminiscent of the 20s and 30s, one of the most interesting and vivid periods in American history in which we had one of the most vivid architectural styles. To this day, Art Deco remains very popular for new construction of condos along coastal regions..and I hate all of that. It's not the same. Here in Oklahoma, we could recreate Art Deco much more tastefully, and we do on occasion..

I think we're better off focused on restoring the existing Art Deco we have and pioneering new architectural styles for what we don't have yet, such as the BOK Center--which draws on what represents Tulsa, while being something new altogether. I think streamlined and modernist would be pretty cool gliding on rails in front of the BOK Center and the City Hall Borg Cube.

I loved the image of the Toronto streetcar you posted, artist. I think such simply-designed streetcars transcend the typical boundaries between certain styles and others, and virtually every can appreciate that. Less bickering over historic versus modern. But if we're talking about restored historic streetcars, I am always going to have to pass on that. Our transit systems shouldn't look like they were built in 1900, and if we sell that as a tourist trap, well why even waste so much money on kitsch as to do that in the first place.

Swake brought up some negative concerns as to who would ride streetcar in OKC or Tulsa. Well the reality is that streetcar has a beneficial ability to entice development and density within a 3-4 block radius of a single track, and a wider radius with proximity to a double track. This ability for urban environments to develop up to the streetcar, especially if you go with a modern streetcar look that has excellent viability for real transit needs, makes streetcar the best choice for starter systems due to its relative low cost to build and operate and how easily downtowns can adapt to it, in terms of growing density in a short time period.  Look at the cities that have pulled off some sort of transit project..Charlotte, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, Nashville, Little Rock, and more. These cities were obviously not incredibly dense to begin with, but especially in Phoenix..infill development along their LRT line took off and the area is now a walkable, transit-oriented community. Who would have ever thought that Phoenix could become urban so soon? It was truly reliant on the foresight of the community leaders who established the LRT there, and of course, all of us who paid for the federal subsidy to build the damn thing because of course, nothing gets done in Arizona without the feds paying for it.

My whole complaint about the feds notwithstanding, that's why this is something worthwhile for OKC and Tulsa to pursue and make happen regardless of how the federal government helps us or not. Typically if you pass a starter system like OKC has done and implement that well it makes you first in line for federal subsidies to do an expansion of the system or get into commuter rail/LRT type stuff, which is important for states not named Arizona. Could a private project come in and do the streetcar itself? Sure, it could..but the reality is that not even that is going to happen without substantial public investment into it even if they're not saying that now. But regardless, it is something that would be a huge boon to Tulsa and something that Tulsa should consider. Believe it or not, even though a downtown may not seem like a huge area, when you have an area that is more than 10 blocks wide by 10 blocks long (100+ blocks) that actually is a huge area when you think about it. In terms of stretching from Sand Springs to Coweta not really, but we're talking about the human scale here, not the freeway scale.

I think my main point is that we do something stylish, above average and unique.  The OKC thing they have pictured wouldnt do that for me as something for Tulsa for instance.  I love the BOK Arena and am SO glad we did something exceptional.  Its that kind of thing that adds to a cities appeal, adds another crown jewel to its architectural heritage.  

There are 3 ways you can do architecture or the style of something... Old/retro, Contemporary/new,  or a mix of both.

Now I would love everything to be very contemporary and new and for Tulsa "high style and of quality"   However, that often calls for more money and effort than usual.  So what you end up getting is same ol same ol whether its traditional brick or "Italianate" etc., or so so, ho hum, contemporary.  

Sure do wonderful, exceptional and contemporary if you can, BUT if your not going to mess with it and the developer or whoever is going to do something more "typical" and run of the mill, give it a deco twist instead of say Italian.  If your gonna do a simple brick building, throw in a few deco hints here and there instead of "this could be anywhere and says nothing special". The new ballpark was in a similar vein, its contemporary on the one hand, but they threw in some" deco echoes" to make it unique to Tulsa versus looking like the other contemporary one they did in Arkansas.  Its still contemporary and reflects the tastes, materials and look of today, but again it has a Tulsa twist to it.

You tend to either get something unique or "stock".  If you gonna get "stock" throw in something that will add to Tulsas heritage and help make our city unique and give it that sense of place.  You go to Texas and you see stars and boots etc. everywhere lol. They have plenty of unique contemporary and same ol same ol, but but they also have, some places more than others, a unique feel and look.  Places like Santa Fe and Tucson, really do that.  Colorado has log and stone stuff. The deep south white columns. Yes Miami does Deco, but its very different than ours, its light pastel colors and simple designs say "Miami".  Each place and part of the country has something that goes with its landscape and or history and they tend to play it up here and there from shopping malls to the corner gas station.   When it comes to choosing something thats going to be basic or stock, I think giving it a deco twist is a pretty danged good choice for Tulsa.

And thats the great thing about deco, you can do ANY style from contemporary to gothic, indeed even Italian and give it a deco twist and look.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Artist.

On a side note (lol) does anyone know what happened at the TDA meeting yesterday?

I am sorry for getting us off on a tangent, I just had to defend OKC I guess.

"I am sorry for getting us off on a tangent, I just had to defend OKC I guess." <  <  You have every right to be proud of OKC.

It has been my experience that it has produced some sensational
long legged, blonde haired, female types.

But that is a "tangent" of a different sort.

FWIW, I like the OKC Trolley, and I agree with your points about Architecture and modernism.  I would be pleased as punch with that streetcar.  The 'old timey' trolley does nothing for me.   It reeks of 'tourist-y', and makes it difficult to imagine it as a legitimate mode of transport.

I do know what happened in the TDA meeting yesterday.  I'll cut to the chase: the Formaation guys presentation was incredibly thin...mostly marketing fluff.  Chuck Tollefsen, who is clearly a marketing guy, managed to belittle TDA Board member Paula Bryant Ellis by calling her "that girl" at one point.  There was very little information on how they are going to pay for this, other than citing 'layers of government programs'.  His presentation was full of misinformation: that tax credits for the Ross Group were "in progress" (not true, as evidenced by Ross Groups own presentation moments later), and that the TDA was "in process" to approve his project (they are considering the sale of land..they are not approving his project).

IMO, other than his associations with Flintco, Matrix, and Gensler (I suppose. They weren't there.) it appears that this group's ability to start, much less complete, this project is a serious question.  I doubt the TDA will go for it.

The Ross Group had a very nice presentation, I thought.  Tear down the Hartford Building (that building is problematic, to say the least.  It leaks like a sieve.  The fake stucco is falling off, and the floor to ceiling heights are short.), and replace it with a 3 story, 60,000 sq foot LEED Silver building, replete with a green roof and geo-thermal heating and cooling.  The building would be pushed to the Greenwood frontage, with parking behind it.  And they are paying for the land with cash.  I expect TDA to work something out with them.   The only thing i questioned is why they need all three parcels.  the balance will be for parking, and with just 75-100 employees, I'd question the need.  Maybe they have trucks or equipment they keep on site.

Land Legacy's presentation was equally as impressive. Love the idea of a linear park in the east village, as a catalyst for development.  That is the kind of public/private investment that downtown needs.  KMO presented a project adjacent to the park that would include 50 for sale units, ranging from 165-300k.

Two proposals were put forth for the TDA parcel at Boston and Archer.  Metroplains, a development company out of Minneapolis, proposed a 40? unit project with underground parking using a variety of federal (HOME) funds and Low Income Housing Tax Credits, so I assume this will be a low income housing project.  The other proposal was from Kevin Stephens...a 30? unit project (Urban Green I think is what he called it.)  30 -788 sq ft 1 brm 1 bath units...green patio on the second floor...3 commercial spaces on the ground floor (approx 7000 sq ft.) and parking in the back and underneath part of the building, I believe.  It seemed to be market rate housing.  Very nice project.  I think the Metroplains proposal is a bit thin, because of timing.  They need site control in order to apply for some grant, and I am not sure the TDA schedule will allow it.  I like the Stephens project, and he says he has the investors to move forward, so if either one is selected, I would imagine it would be his, if I were a gambling man.

The Ross Group plan sounds great and would be a nice addition to the area.  Ross Group, for those that don't know, is a Tulsa-based construction company that does a lot of government/military work across the country.  The main office is currently near 244 and 129th E. Ave. and they also have an office in downtown OKC.  The Ross proposal would mean another 50 or so employees downtown and [what sounds like] a better urban design for Greenwood between 1st and 2nd.

In your opinion then, the TDA is now going to begin to act rationally?
Try to do things a tad quicker than has been their recent lap..se  time?

I ask you this in all sincerity as your opinion I hold in very high regard.
 

Oh..well.  I wish I had that kind of insight.  The meeting was well attended, and the chairman was pretty on top of the meeting, so from that standpoint it would be hard for any funny bidness to occur. As we know, anything can happen... I can't say how long this will take.  I would imagine that the Ross Group proposal, as it is a cash deal, can happen quickly.  The Boston and Archer projects will likely need more vetting, and financial details.  My impression is that Mr Pegues (Sp?) runs a tight ship, and is legitimately trying to manage things properly.  The rank and file staff will have to become more accustomed to working under more of a microscope.  People are definitely paying attention.

Could someone remind me which building the Hartford Building is? Are we sure it's in "disrepair" ..

The Ross proposal sounds pretty good, and like I said in my first post in the thread, you gotta go with the projects that actually would come to fruition. This is another large scale pipe dream, and the track record has been god-awful for those.

Here you go amigo. This is from the high dollar firm that gas done squat in the way of moving these properties made available by the City Hall move.

Click on "close up def" to view Hartford. "The old City Permit Center" among other things.


http://tulsalandopportunities.com/property2.html

Its an awful awful building.

The TDA meeting via The World translation:

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/downtownhouse.jpg)


Downtown housing proposals roll in
One is for rental property while the other is for owner-occupied condos.

By P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer
Published: 5/9/2010  2:26 AM
Last Modified: 5/9/2010  5:06 AM

Proposals for downtown housing continue to roll into the Tulsa Development Authority.

Last week, the authority received two proposals for a 0.25 acre site in the Brady District on the northwest corner of Archer Street and Boston Avenue, where a parking lot is currently located.

The authority heard presentations from two out-of-state development firms interested in the site, which is appraised at $252,000.

One of the proposals is for affordable rental housing called the Brady District Flats.

Minneapolis-St. Paul-based MetroPlains LLC is proposing a project of about $6 million for construction of a four-story, 30-unit structure with rental rates ranging from $460 to $800 a month. There also will be 4,500 square feet of commercial space and subsurface parking.

The architect for the project, Mike Sikes of Sikes-Abernathie Architects, said MetroPlains is very familiar with the Brady District and has been working with the George Kaiser Family Foundation on projects in the area.

Randy Schold, principal of MetroPlains, told the authority that his company has been involved in rehabilitation of historic buildings in numerous states. Schold also cited some local work, including the Berryhill Building in Sapulpa, the Aldridge Apartments in McAlester and the Will Rogers Apartments in Claremore. He said the company is active in six states.

Schold said that none of MetroPlains' work gets done without partnerships.

He said MetroPlains is an expert in layering federal, state and local financing. He said the proposed Tulsa project is seeking $1.3 million in financing from federal HOME funds.

The second project proposed by Tre One of California is for an energy-efficient four-story structure, costing about $7 million, with 40 condominiums for sale ranging from $155,000 to $295,000.

Kevin Stephens of Tre One told the authority that ground-floor retail spaces would front Boston Avenue with covered parking behind the building.

The condominiums would fill the remaining floors with a common second-floor deck and garden.

Stephens said the project is targeting the needs identified in the downtown housing study. The group's background is in energy-efficient, "green" construction that allows Tre One to produce zero-net energy housing.

Stephens said the proposed project is not contingent of any financing or tax credits.

Stephens said the collective experience of Tre One team members is worldwide with urban redevelopment projects in China, Australia and costal areas in south Florida, Tampa and Miami.

For the past four years, Stephens said he has been purchasing and redeveloping property in and around midtown Tulsa, including historical residential and infill condominiums.

Tulsa Development Authority Executive Director O.C. Walker expects to ask for a vote on entering negotiations with one of the groups at a May 20 meeting.

"TDA seeks the highest and best use of development in the downtown area," he said.

---

You just have to Love that final quote.

(http://tulsalandopportunities.com/propertyphotos/site2_closeup_def_full.jpg)

Disrepair or not, it's a chance to replace a mistake of a building with a proper use of the space. 

So Kenosha, are you saying Formaation's proposal is nothing but a pie-in-the-sky or are they just so early in the process, they have not had time to nail anything down?

The building was the proper use of space when it was originally built. Railroad tracks used to cut through the site diagonally. The west (angled) side of the building was used for loading and unloading goods. You can see in the upper right of the photo the diagonal indentation of the tracks in the concrete. There's also the remnants of a building foundation in the grass vacant lot above the Hartford building - it was angled as well.

That's really interesting.  I always wondered why the building was shaped so.

Looks like these are the projects TDA has selected.  I think Formaation has good ideas but I'm not sure they would be able to actually do it at such a large-scale.  Maybe it would be better for them to concentrate on a block at a time and grow the East Village in a more organic fashion.  

I'll be interested to see to renderings of these proposed projects.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100524_11_A1_TheTul620095 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100524_11_A1_TheTul620095)

So, in review, Kevin Stephen's, Ross Group's, and Land Legacy's projects were selected. 

Maybe I should get into the future predicting bidness. 

That Chuck Tollefsen dude sounds pissed.

I'd be pissed, too. I think the project was compelling and had several great elements. And while I like the idea of a LEED-certified building, what else does the Ross Group's project include? More surface parking. Their rationale? It'll help during Drillers games. That is a lame excuse, and especially for a company that's touting LEED. What's so green about a LEED building that requires a sea of surface parking?

Formaation's Tollefsen: "We brought forth a master plan that is consistent with the downtown master plan" created under former Mayor Kathy Taylor's administration, he said. "Our plan had entertainment and retail, which generates sales tax, and it connected the two biggest investments downtown, the BOK Center and ONEOK Field ballpark."

In addition to the entertainment and retail portions, it also included important, variably-priced residential units. What's more, they were willing to work the Land Legacy and Ross Group projects into their plan. Imagine that, people working together!

TDA needs to either be abolished or have its members replaced with people who actually want downtown to prosper, instead of squatting on land for 40 years and making sound developers jump through their hoops of fire.

That said, I'd like to see Land Legacy's plans. It would be great to have residential buildings outline the park(s).

I feel another letter to the editor coming.

It was a compelling project, just like the last 3 east village projects were compelling.  Unfortunately, this guy is even less capable of pulling it off than the last three groups.  

At some point you have to merge your visionary stuff with the reality stuff.  

Of course I would love to see the larger project go through, but I suppose it was the financing question that made them seem the less likely bet.  And as we have seen, its the steady progression of smaller projects that have been the key to making things happen in downtown. But no, I do not like the "LEED" project taking up those plots of land for parking.  Its wrong for it unnecessarily gives up city property that could go to other developments, and is absurd to boot.

I guess to make the lemonaide- they can always build a building on those parking lots when the true value of downtown land is realized a lot easier than tearing something down and building up.  I hate to see more surface parking too, but with the way this fine little Banana Republic operates (channeling Friendly Bear) it's the only way I know not to let the frustration make my head explode.

The plus side to the Ross project is that it involves constructing a new building that fronts Greenwood with surface parking behind (to the east) as well as on the lot to the north, according to what they presented.  Not an ideal situation but not horrible either, and those lots could be redeveloped in the future.  It would be much harder to do if, for instance, they were simply renovating the existing city building with its parking lot on Greenwood.  This will help reinforce the 'street wall' of buildings that exist north of the tracks.

Put another grand plan for down town on the trash heap.  I'm having trouble mustering up much emotion one way or the other given the lack of polished detail this plan offered and its apparent reliance on government loans/bonds/financing.  In the current climate, such financing did not seem very realistic.

While these large scale comprehensive mixed use developments always garner a lot of attention (when announced), the steady progress of down town continues to be carried on the back of smaller organic developments.  Maybe it will be better in the end not to have one of these large faux old areas with "Village" on the end of its name, but it sure would be a good indication down town revitalization has reached some sort of critical mass if one of these comprehensive plans actually came to fruition - if only to soften my cynical view of each new announcement of yet another such plan.

I like the idea of the large urban park.  If done right, it might spur some private development around the park.  I won't hold my breath though.  I give this a 30% chance of actually happening, and even less of a chance that it will happen in the next 5 years.  Seems things take an eternity to get done downtown.  How long ago was the Tribune Lofts II supposed to start?  The Mathews Warehouse renovation?  First Street Lofts?  I could go on and on.  Seems the BOK and OneOk Field were the only things built as planned in a timely fashion.

Per the above comments, my two cents.  When I think about developing downtown, and I think about the deliverables that appeal to me; authenticity, true urbanism, local services, neighborhood-relevant retail.  What tends to turn me off to the larger scaled, multi-block development concepts (in a downtown area) is the difficulty those developments have in delivering that.  You can clearly think of successful developments that have merged local and national retail (Utica Square.), but they are few and far between.  Utica Square didn't pop out of the ground like it is today either.

I digress. 

The pace of development downtown is frustrating certainly, and we all want it to hit that tipping point...but before it does hit that tipping point, I personally feel that we need a few more well established, independent, local offerings.  The only way I know how to garner that type of local investment is by way of the tortoise, and not the hare.  The development equivalent of the Slow Food Movement.   The Slow City movement, maybe.    The idea behind the Slow Food movement is what?  Real food, grown locally, designed to maintain local food traditions.  The opposite of fast food: processed into foodstuffs designed for mass consumption. 

Same with good development:  small, locally funded...locally invested, supportive of unique, creative concepts.  Diverse architecture, diverse functions... designed to maintain and create local traditions.  The opposite of large, uniform buildings, forced architecture, formulaic uses...

I am not saying that is what Formaation was proposing.  What I am saying is that that scale of development...is very hard to control.  There are pressures to find tenants, LOTS of tenants. Compromises are made, quality suffers.

Anyway...I think the TDA may have made the right decision here.  Bringing jobs downtown is good.  My understanding is that the Ross Group's decision to be downtown was employee driven.  They wanted to be down there.  Those are potential residents, the way I see it.  And Land Legacy's proposal is a no brainer...a urban park..open space to develop around.  I love it.

Urban Tulsa article about Micha Alexander's developments in this area, which he has been working to slowly develop around his business.  An excerpt:

As Micha Alexander sees it, the development of his neighborhood around E. Third Street and Lansing Avenue in the East Village is quickly becoming his life's work.

"Yeah, it's turning out to be like that," he said. "In 2003, when I first came down here, I was 23. I thought I'd just buy up everything and build it. Now, I'll be 30 in June, and I'm just getting started."

The district Alexander has built or renovated one building at a time that welcomes its latest addition this week, when he holds an open house from 4pm-8pm Friday, May 21 for The Bend, a two-condominium development he's built at 814 E. Third St.

The one-bedroom, two-story units may be small -- they're both sized at approximately 1,000 square feet -- but they boast a sleek, ultra-modern design and numerous high-end features that are designed to appeal to buyers looking for something different.

http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A30424 (http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A30424)

That's not different. That's like saying a girl dressed in all black with purple hair working at hot topic is unusual.

Every downtown property being developed has "high-end features"

Give me something with a toaster oven and formica, please.

Now you are talking..! a lean-to in shanty town..

Paradiso por deux.

Instead of referring to my neighborhood as something like the usual fancy "Richland Heights" or whatnot, when I pull into my neighborhood I say "Aaaah, good to be back in good ol Poverty Gulch!"  :P

That is funny, Scott.  I am totally with you.  Stainless Steel appliances are pretty much the standard now, which is what passes for "high end" around here....amiryte?

Article in today's T.World says TDA voted to enter into negotiations with Formaation LLC to sale the property at 2nd & Greenwood (the Hartford Building site).  Developer claims the multiphase project will start with a $74 million loft and retail development project.  As always with any announcement involving TDA and/or east end development - I will believe it when I see dirt being moved.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20110217_11_A7_Anambi501616

I REALLY hope this project comes to fruition. At least the first phase. My favorite aspect of this project is the streetcar. I will believe it though, the day I see framing go up.

Interesting.  I didn't realize Ross Group backed out.  They were going to raze the Hartford building and build a new headquarters with over 50 jobs relocated from their current offices at Pine & 129th E Ave.  I wonder if they are still interested in moving downtown to a different location?

I sincerely hope not. They wanted two whole blocks of surface parking with their proposal! Not what we need.

Word is that Ross Group is going on the old Fields Down Randolph site.

Rumor.

Is that in downtown, I've never heard of it. Sorry.;)

Before:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2666/3701081079_95e58333f9.jpg?v=0)

After:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2646/3725129907_3796effaae.jpg?v=0)

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=13834.0

Thanks. Shockeeerrr, it's a parking lot.

Worse, it's a weed growing field - and not "medical" use weed, either.

Three nights work and some help from Councilor Henderson and we can modify that.

If the Ross Group decides to locate its offices on the old Fields warehouse site hopefully their building fronts Frankfort, 6th and 7th.  Their plan at 2nd & Greenwood was 60,000 SF on three levels with surface parking.  The area around 6th & Frankfort already has plenty of parking so maybe they won't add more.  

I hope they recycled the bricks.

Let me know how that works for you.

Yeah, I was kinda thinking the same thing. :-\

I have seen something on TV, probably "This Old House" where the bricks are chipped out of their mortar and reused rather than going to a landfill.  Might not be economical in this area.

There is brick recycling. Even in Tulsa.

Dawson Building Supply and Salvage
5519 East Tecumseh Street

 

(http://www.kevinstephensdesign.com/images/EastThird/pic_2h_lg.gif)
(http://www.kevinstephensdesign.com/images/804third/pic_1h_lg.gif)

Does anyone know if these projects ever started? LOVE the architecture.

I have also heard that old bricks (early 1900s) were better made bricks than we can get now.  Any truth or is it a matter of what you pay?

True

I know the bottom one has not started and is still an empty lot where 3rd curves at Kenosha.  Is the top one on 3rd too?  Pretty sure both are still just proposals.  Kevin Stephens (the architect/developer) hasn't been able to get any of his non-Cherry Street projects off the ground since the recession hit i.e. the temple/community center and lofts at 14th & Cheyenne and the lofts in Brady.  

Oh, thanks. Hopefully these two will get built, along with his lofts in Brady.