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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => National & International Politics => Topic started by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 09:05:02 am



Title: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 09:05:02 am
This is good.  The administration has to go back to the drawing board on their plans to impose taxation and regulation on internet usage and commerce.  We get to keep our free internets for a while longer.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal appeals court has ruled that the Federal Communications Commission lacks the authority to require broadband providers to give equal treatment to all Internet traffic flowing over their networks.

It marks a serious setback for the FCC, which needs authority to regulate the Internet in order to push ahead with key parts of its massive national broadband plan.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: swake on April 06, 2010, 09:55:34 am
This is good.  The administration has to go back to the drawing board on their plans to impose taxation and regulation on internet usage and commerce.  We get to keep our free internets for a while longer.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal appeals court has ruled that the Federal Communications Commission lacks the authority to require broadband providers to give equal treatment to all Internet traffic flowing over their networks.

It marks a serious setback for the FCC, which needs authority to regulate the Internet in order to push ahead with key parts of its massive national broadband plan.


Wow,

I work in a related industry, and I have to tell you that your understanding of this issue is WAY off base and this is a very bad, very anti-competitive (anti-capitalistic) ruling.

Let's say an Internet provider, let's say AT&T, doesn't like you using Vonage for phone service. Done, Vonage can't be used on AT&T's network. You would have to buy phone service from AT&T. Let's say they sign an exclusive deal with Bing to provide search on their network. Boom, Google and Yahoo are gone.



Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: JeffM on April 06, 2010, 10:09:03 am
The campaign promise......
October 29, 2007 2:29 PM PDT
Obama pledges Net neutrality laws if elected president
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9806707-7.html

The campaign promise fulfilled....
FCC Backs Net Neutrality — And Then Some
By Ryan Singel  September 21, 2009
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/09/net-neutrality-announcement/#ixzz0kKyKjOoZ



Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Nik on April 06, 2010, 10:14:17 am
Wow,

I work in a related industry, and I have to tell you that your understanding of this issue is WAY off base and this is a very bad, very anti-competitive (anti-capitalistic) ruling.

Let's say an Internet provider, let's say AT&T, doesn't like you using Vonage for phone service. Done, Vonage can't be used on AT&T's network. You would have to buy phone service from AT&T. Let's say they sign an exclusive deal with Bing to provide search on their network. Boom, Google and Yahoo are gone.



I was just going to point this out. Gaspar seems to be glad the FCC lost the judgment, but then says "We get to keep our free internets for a while longer." The opposite is true. While swake's examples are extreme, they are the worst case scenario for what the ruling entails.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Conan71 on April 06, 2010, 10:37:38 am
“The Internet’s creators didn’t want the network architecture — or any single entity — to pick winners and losers,” Genachowski said,

Read More http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/09/net-neutrality-announcement/#ixzz0kL4yg4JZ

I didn't hear Algore chime in on this  ;)

From the second article JeffM cited:

So-called “Net neutrality” is shorthand for the idea that the government should mandate that ISPs should largely act as dumb pipes that transmit data across the net without regards to what is in the data packets. Today’s announcement marks a huge win for advocates say the rules are necessary to keep ISPs from stifling innovation by erecting tollbooths and created tiered access plans.

But others argue that consumer pressure will keep the net open and the rules will stifle attempts at innovation, such as finding ways to prioritize video calls over less urgent traffic such as photo uploads. ISPs balk at the rules, since they have grown envious of the profits of companies like Yahoo and Google, who they see as free riders on their infrastructure.

The current rules, which never went through an official rule-making process and are being contested in court by Comcast, give broadband consumers the right use whatever services, applications and devices they like, so long as they don’t harm the network.

Genachowski proposes adding two more principles:

broadband providers cannot discriminate against services or applications by slowing them down
broadband providers must tell customers how its engineers manage the network when it gets congested
The first new rule seeks to prevent cable ISPs from slowing down online video services and 3G providers from messing with internet calling services like Skype.

Those rules are necessary because there is little competition in the broadband market, Genachowski added. ”The net result is that broadband providers’ rational bottom-line interests may diverge from the broad interests of consumers in competition and choice,” Genachowski said.

The second new rule is intended to prevent a repeat of Comcast’s blocking of peer-to-peer traffic, which was discovered by an engineer having trouble sharing public-domain barbershop-quartet songs on the net. Comcast denied for months that it was blocking the traffic, and only after a year of substantial pressure from the FCC did the company explain what it was doing.

Read More http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/09/net-neutrality-announcement/#ixzz0kL5NMklc

At least from this angle, I'm not seeing terrible harm with net neutrality, but this is not an area of expertise to me.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: we vs us on April 06, 2010, 10:38:59 am
The campaign promise......
October 29, 2007 2:29 PM PDT
Obama pledges Net neutrality laws if elected president
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9806707-7.html

The campaign promise fulfilled....
FCC Backs Net Neutrality — And Then Some
By Ryan Singel  September 21, 2009
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/09/net-neutrality-announcement/#ixzz0kKyKjOoZ



Interesting.  In this throwaway article (http://www.pcworld.com/article/193557/court_rules_against_fccs_comcast_net_neutrality_decision.html) at PC World about the decision, it says:

"The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, in an order Tuesday, overturned the FCC's August 2008 ruling forcing Comcast to abandon its network management efforts aimed at users of the BitTorrent p-to-p service and other applications. The FCC lacked "any statutorily mandated responsibility" to enforce network neutrality rules, wrote Judge David Tatel."

If the FCC can't enforce Net Neutrality, who can?  


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: swake on April 06, 2010, 10:39:46 am
Interesting.  In this throwaway article (http://www.pcworld.com/article/193557/court_rules_against_fccs_comcast_net_neutrality_decision.html) at PC World about the decision, it says:

"The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, in an order Tuesday, overturned the FCC's August 2008 ruling forcing Comcast to abandon its network management efforts aimed at users of the BitTorrent p-to-p service and other applications. The FCC lacked "any statutorily mandated responsibility" to enforce network neutrality rules, wrote Judge David Tatel."

If the FCC can't enforce Net Neutrality, who can?  

Well, if the FCC can't, then congress needs to change the law so that they can.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: swake on April 06, 2010, 10:45:42 am
I was just going to point this out. Gaspar seems to be glad the FCC lost the judgment, but then says "We get to keep our free internets for a while longer." The opposite is true. While swake's examples are extreme, they are the worst case scenario for what the ruling entails.

My examples are not extreme, they are likely outcomes.

You only have to look at Apple and AT&T to see where this is going. The iPhone doesn't allow Google Voice in competition with AT&T voice services, doesn't allow other browsers other than Apple's Safari, doesn't allow Porn apps at all, doesn't support Flash, doesn't allow downloads except through Apple's approved store where they get a 30% cut of everything sold.

Competition won't solve this either, there is very little competition in the ISP arena. There are really only two broadband providers in Tulsa, and that isn't likely to change any time in the near future. In many rural areas there's only one, or none.





Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 11:30:25 am
Funny.  Yes the proposal uses great words like "equality" and "neutrality,"  but at the heart of the purpose is section 4.20 where they want to establish a guideline for the taxation of internet use and commerce. 

This small provision has more meaning than anything else in the proposal.  It grants new powers to the FCC, and therefore the administration to impose a tax structure on the Net.  Once this door is open, I think even those of us most susceptible to lib-speak understand the overall goal.  Trillions of dollars in untapped taxes become available to government.

Sure, there is a lot of bate hiding this hook.  It's been a goal of the FCC for a long time and with this admin they see their chance.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: sgrizzle on April 06, 2010, 11:30:25 am
Another problem with blocking net neutrality is amazon could pay a fee to a few large telecom entities and suddenly video streaming from any site other than amazon is slow and unwatchable.

What the telecom companies are trying to do is the same thing as if Chevy or Toyota suddenly said "You're only allowed in the right lane, and not allowed to ride on turnpikes or highways, unless you pay us $100/month. You also are not allowed to drive to downtown anytime between 7am and 9am on weekdays unless you pay us another $50/month."

Yes, it's added government regulation but ours is the only government willing to let telecom companies decided what kind of internet you get.

The examples are not extreme. More than once ABC and Comcast were arguing over pricing so comcast shut off all ABC-owned networks to all viewers until they got a better deal.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: fotd on April 06, 2010, 12:07:16 pm
Jeebus, with the convergence of television and the computer coming this decade this appears to be posturing on a major level.





Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 06, 2010, 12:15:27 pm
I can see both sides of the argument:  its my network let me do as I please/government stay away from my internets  AND networks are fixed infrastructure that don't make sense to duplicate/have high barriers to entry. 

However, looking at other industrualized countries, they have faster internet for cheaper available to more people.  Likewise, when phone lines were opened up by regulation prices dropped and services increase along with innovation.  Thew result seems to be better for the consumer... if it is implemented in a way that is not a taking from the network providers.

Then balance that with keeping government from taxing the internet, restricting content, and limiting innovation.

Glad I don't have to make the decision.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: swake on April 06, 2010, 12:20:46 pm
Funny.  Yes the proposal uses great words like "equality" and "neutrality,"  but at the heart of the purpose is section 4.20 where they want to establish a guideline for the taxation of internet use and commerce.  

This small provision has more meaning than anything else in the proposal.  It grants new powers to the FCC, and therefore the administration to impose a tax structure on the Net.  Once this door is open, I think even those of us most susceptible to lib-speak understand the overall goal.  Trillions of dollars in untapped taxes become available to government.

Sure, there is a lot of bate hiding this hook.  It's been a goal of the FCC for a long time and with this admin they see their chance.

I have no idea (Glen Beck) where you got this, but it's just plain false, not just wrong, false. You have been lied to.

I looked it up and was frankly shocked at what I saw. section 4.2 is titled "Devices" and deals with cable cards and cable set top boxes.

I have proprietary knowledge regarding this section and I will not, in fact cannot, comment on this section. But it has nothing to do with taxation or commerce except to encourage the availability of retail access devices.

Quote
4.2 DEVICES
Innovative devices fundamentally change how people use broadband. Smartphones have allowed millions of Americans to use mobile e-mail, browse the Internet on-the-go, and—more recently—to use hundreds of thousands of mobile applications that did not exist a few years ago. Before smartphones, personal computers with graphical user interfaces and growing process¬ing power enabled the emergence of the Web browser, which led to the widespread adoption of the Internet.
Competition, often from companies that were not market leaders, has driven innovation and investment in devices in the past and must continue to do so in the future. When one exam¬ines the three main types of devices that connect to broadband service provider networks—mobile devices, computing devices and set-top boxes—one finds that there are many mobile and computing device manufacturers offering hundreds of devices with a dizzying assortment of brands, features and price levels. Whole new device classes, such as tablets, e-book readers and netbooks continue to emerge, shifting firms’ market posi¬tions and enabling entrants to capture market share. Mobile devices are rapidly incorporating technology such as Global Positioning System, accelerometers, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, en¬hanced graphics and multi-touch screens. By any measure, innovation is thriving in mobile and computing devices.  The same is not true for set-top boxes, which are becoming increasingly important for broadband as video drives more broadband usage (see Chapter 3).96 Further innovation in set-top boxes could lead to:
hGreater choice, lower prices and more capability in the boxes, including applications.97
hMore competition among companies offering video content (MVPDs).98
hUnlimited choice in the content available—whether from traditional television (TV) or the Internet—through an integrated user interface.99
hMore video and broadband applications for the TV, possibly in conjunction with other devices, such as mobile phones and personal computers (PCs).100
hHigher broadband utilization.101
Congress wanted to stimulate competition and innovation in set-top boxes and other video navigation devices in 1996 when it added Section 629 to the Communications Act. Section 629 directed the FCC to ensure that consumers could use commercially available navigation devices to access services from MVPDs.102 Lawmakers pointed to innovative uses of the telephone network, related to new phones, faxes and other equipment, and said they wanted to create a similarly vigorous retail market for devices used with MVPD services.103
The FCC adopted its First Report and Order to implement the provisions of Section 629 in 1998.104 The order established rules requiring MVPDs to separate the system that customers use to gain access to video programming, called the conditional element, from the device customers use to navigate the pro¬gramming. Section 629 nominally applies to all MVPDs. The FCC, however, has applied its rules only to cable operators. It either directly exempted other MVPDs, such as satellite TV operators, or implicitly excluded them by taking “no action” against an operator.105
Operators and other stakeholders agreed on a proposed solution for cable—called CableCARD—to separate the con¬ditional access element. The CableCARD is about the size of a credit card and roughly similar in function to the Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) card used in mobile phones. Cable operators supply the CableCARD, which is inserted into a set-top box or television set that a consumer buys at a store to authenticate the subscriber. To ensure adequate support for CableCARDs, the FCC required cable operators to use CableCARDs for set-top boxes leased to consumers.
The first devices from third-party manufacturers using CableCARDs hit the retail market in August 2004, six years after the FCC’s First Report and Order. Three years later, in July 2007, cable operators began using CableCARDs in their leased set-top boxes.106Despite Congressional and FCC in¬tentions, CableCARDs have failed to stimulate a competitive retail market for set-top boxes. The top two cable set-top box manufacturers in North America, Motorola and Cisco, together captured a 95% share of unit shipments over the first three quarters of 2009. That’s up from 87% in 2006.107 A national or global market with relatively low costs of entry, like that for many consumer electronics markets, should support more than two competitors over time.108The two companies continue to control both the hardware and the security on the cable set-top box through their proprietary conditional access systems. By contrast, the top two cable set-top box manufacturers in Europe, the Middle East and Asia (EMEA) where open stan¬dards are used for conditional access accounted for a market share of approximately 39% between 2006 and the third quarter of 2009.109 There are 0.5 million CableCARDs deployed in retail devices today,110 which represents roughly 1% of all set-top boxes deployed in cable homes.111 Only two manufacturers, TiVo and Moxi, continue to sell CableCARD-enabled set-top boxes through retail outlets.
Other alternatives are starting to emerge. For example, several innovators are attempting to bring Internet video to the TV.112 Their devices often cannot access traditional TV content that consumers value—content that is not available or difficult to access online. Without the ability to seamlessly integrate Internet video with traditional TV viewing, Internet video de¬vices like Apple TV and Roku have struggled to gain a foothold in U.S. homes.113
Retail set-top boxes have been competing on an uneven playing field. The barriers have been well-documented in mul¬tiple proceedings114 and have prompted some companies not to enter the market at all.115 To level the field, the FCC should adopt the recommendation that follows. To maximize the likelihood that the recommendation will succeed, it should ap¬ply to all MVPDs. Extending the rule to all MVPDs will enable consumer electronics manufacturers to develop products for a larger customer base and allow consumers to purchase retail devices that will continue to function even if the consumer changes providers. Today, four out of the top 10 MVPDs are not cable companies and represent 41% of MVPD subscribers.116


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: nathanm on April 06, 2010, 12:33:31 pm
This is good. 
You must inhabit an entirely different reality than I do. Vertical monopolies are bad, mmkay?

There's almost no regulation on ISPs at the present time, which I like just fine. I also think the net neutrality folks are generally off base because they refuse to distinguish between prioritizing interactive traffic over bulk downloads and an ISP prioritizing traffic exchanged with their own VoIP (or whatever, it's an example) server over VoIP destined to or originating from their own service.

At this point, reasonable choices in broadband service is limited to the usual duopoly now that the FCC decided to ignore the 1996 Telecom Act and cease requiring line sharing. In most locales, including Tulsa, there is not enough competition to keep ISPs from doing anticompetitive things, at least in the residential market. (things are quite different in the large business market)

That's why I support limited regulation preventing ISPs from prioritizing their own services over those of competitors. I do not support a blanket ban on traffic prioritization of any sort, however.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 12:35:17 pm
Would probably not be of as much concern under any other administration, but we know that the push in this proposal is not the neutrality issue, but the tax issue.  

I have no problem with companies doing battle over bandwidth.  Those that engage in ruthless tactics will ultimately pay the price.  Internet commerce and the battle for bandwidth has worked this way for years.  Yes leveraging can be ugly, but ultimately the consumer votes with dollars, and vile practices are rewarded with disdain from the ultimate consumer.  We have provisions to fight monopolistic practices.  

Again, this is a hook covered with tasty bait.    


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 12:37:30 pm
Page 58
RECOMMENDATION 4.20:  The federal government should investigate establishing a national framework for digital goods and services taxation. 
      The National Broadband Plan is focused on increasing beneficial use of the Internet, including e-commerce and new innovative business models.  The current patchwork of state and local laws and regulations relating to taxation of digital goods and services (such as ringtones, digital music, etc.) may hinder new investment and business models.  Entrepreneurs and small businesses in particular may lack the resources to understand and comply with the various tax regimes. 
      Recognizing that state and local governments pursue varying approaches to raising tax revenues, a national framework for digital goods and services taxation would reduce uncertainty and remove one barrier to online entrepreneurship and investment.



Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: nathanm on April 06, 2010, 12:52:32 pm
Would probably not be of as much concern under any other administration, but we know that the push in this proposal is not the neutrality issue, but the tax issue.  

I have no problem with companies doing battle over bandwidth.  Those that engage in ruthless tactics will ultimately pay the price.  Internet commerce and the battle for bandwidth has worked this way for years.
For most of those years, there has been healthy competition in the eyeball networks. Now there is not.

Secondly, this issue was also pushed by the previous administration's FCC, it's not new by any means. Keep digging that hole..


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 12:57:02 pm
For most of those years, there has been healthy competition in the eyeball networks. Now there is not.

Secondly, this issue was also pushed by the previous administration's FCC, it's not new by any means. Keep digging that hole..

It's been tried since 87'


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: sgrizzle on April 06, 2010, 01:13:08 pm
I am not convinced free enterprise is going to make everything peachy. As said before we only have two real ISP's in Tulsa and the US is one of the slowest in the world when it comes to internet availability and speed. The same companies giving us limited competition and slow speeds are wanting to control what you access and eliminate "unlimited" plans in favor of going back to cost per mb.

(http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/Images/commentarynews/broadbandspeedchart.jpg)

Like it or not, high speed internet cannot be considered an open enterprise. If AT&T and COX decide to block youtube, then no-one in Tulsa gets youtube. There is no ability to switch to "vote with your dollars."


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: guido911 on April 06, 2010, 01:16:27 pm
Here is the opinion:

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/common/opinions/201004/08-1291-1238302.pdf

The money shot:

Quote
It is true that “Congress gave the [Commission] broad
and adaptable jurisdiction so that it can keep pace with rapidly
evolving communications technologies.” Resp’t’s Br. 19. It
is also true that “[t]he Internet is such a technology,” id.,
indeed, “arguably the most important innovation in
communications in a generation,” id. at 30. Yet
notwithstanding the “difficult regulatory problem of rapid
technological change” posed by the communications industry,
“the allowance of wide latitude in the exercise of delegated
powers is not the equivalent of untrammeled freedom to
regulate activities over which the statute fails to confer . . .
Commission authority.” NARUC II, 533 F.2d at 618 (internal
quotation marks and footnote omitted). Because the
Commission has failed to tie its assertion of ancillary
authority over Comcast’s Internet service to any “statutorily
mandated responsibility,” Am. Library, 406 F.3d at 692, we
grant the petition for review and vacate the Order.
So ordered.

Net neutrality got trashed because the D.C. circuit found an absence of ancillary jurisdiction by the FCC. One would think that an agency lacking jurisdiction over a matter and getting called out would be appreciated by all.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: we vs us on April 06, 2010, 01:22:00 pm
We know that the push in this proposal is not the neutrality issue, but the tax issue.  


We don't know this.  You believe this.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 01:23:52 pm
I am not convinced free enterprise is going to make everything peachy. As said before we only have two real ISP's in Tulsa and the US is one of the slowest in the world when it comes to internet availability and speed. The same companies giving us limited competition and slow speeds are wanting to control what you access and eliminate "unlimited" plans in favor of going back to cost per mb.

(http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/Images/commentarynews/broadbandspeedchart.jpg)

Like it or not, high speed internet cannot be considered an open enterprise. If AT&T and COX decide to block youtube, then no-one in Tulsa gets youtube. There is no ability to switch to "vote with your dollars."

Sure it does.  Opens the market to a competitor.  May take time for that competitor to emerge, but it does open the market.  EasyTel, Version, GrizzleTel, someone would move into the vacuum.  

It's like if McDonald's decided not to offer French fries any more in a town where there was only one burger joint (a McDonald's).  Someone would take advantage of the "engineered" competitive weakness.

If a market exists a marketer will emerge.  This is only false in regulated systems where market offering is determined by outside entities (government).

God, I'm tired of beating this horse.





Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: sgrizzle on April 06, 2010, 01:53:25 pm
If a market exists a marketer will emerge.  This is only false in regulated systems where market offering is determined by outside entities (government).

SWBell has been our telephone company for how many decades? How exactly is a new phone or cable company going to be able to swoop in when the regulated giants control all the infrastructure?


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: swake on April 06, 2010, 02:22:22 pm
Page 58
RECOMMENDATION 4.20:  The federal government should investigate establishing a national framework for digital goods and services taxation. 
      The National Broadband Plan is focused on increasing beneficial use of the Internet, including e-commerce and new innovative business models.  The current patchwork of state and local laws and regulations relating to taxation of digital goods and services (such as ringtones, digital music, etc.) may hinder new investment and business models.  Entrepreneurs and small businesses in particular may lack the resources to understand and comply with the various tax regimes. 
      Recognizing that state and local governments pursue varying approaches to raising tax revenues, a national framework for digital goods and services taxation would reduce uncertainty and remove one barrier to online entrepreneurship and investment.



I see that now, it's recommendation 4.2, not section.

But this is just calling out the method of taxation and standardizing it. I don't see anything sinister here.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 02:34:56 pm
I see that now, it's recommendation 4.2, not section.

But this is just calling out the method of taxation and standardizing it. I don't see anything sinister here.

Do you think that a standard method of internet taxation will not be acted on immediately?

I anticipate it will take about 2.1 seconds for the bills to flood congress, and another 1.6 seconds for the 4,000 page internet tax bill to be written. 

With the door cracked open to trillions in taxable transactions, Pelosi will be on this faster than Al Gore's G5 flying over Texas.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: swake on April 06, 2010, 02:39:59 pm
Do you think that a standard method of internet taxation will not be acted on immediately?

I anticipate it will take about 2.1 seconds for the bills to flood congress, and another 1.6 seconds for the 4,000 page internet tax bill to be written. 

With the door cracked open to trillions in taxable transactions, Pelosi will be on this faster than Al Gore's G5 flying over Texas.


the internet can be taxed at any time today, all it takes is a decision by congress to do it. This does not change that, it just makes taxation easier on the entity being taxed.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2010, 02:47:47 pm
the internet can be taxed at any time today, all it takes is a decision by congress to do it. This does not change that, it just makes taxation easier on the entity being taxed.

All anything takes is a decision by congress, but currently The Internet Tax Freedom Act Amendments Act of 2007, and it's extension to 2014 prevents such taxation.  This is an extension of the 2004 law.

Yes, congress could change the law, but it's easier to nibble than bite.  If the jurisdiction for an internet tax structure can be shifted to FCC control than taxation can begin through regulation and fines.  Over time this makes it easier to adopt a federal tax structure for the internet.



Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: waterboy on April 06, 2010, 06:39:27 pm
Sure it does.  Opens the market to a competitor.  May take time for that competitor to emerge, but it does open the market.  EasyTel, Version, GrizzleTel, someone would move into the vacuum.  

It's like if McDonald's decided not to offer French fries any more in a town where there was only one burger joint (a McDonald's).  Someone would take advantage of the "engineered" competitive weakness.

If a market exists a marketer will emerge.  This is only false in regulated systems where market offering is determined by outside entities (government).

God, I'm tired of beating this horse.





Gotta' go with Grizz on this. We'll keep beating your horse till you admit its your horse. Your view of markets emerging because of competitive weakness is sophomoric. Its straight out of Econ 10 and lacking in reality. First off McDonalds probably wouldn't locate as the only burger joint in a small town. Secondly, McDonalds relies on more than french fries to succeed and offering french fries will not be enough to make any competitor (who isn't backed up with professional site selection, advertising and research) actually compete against them. This view is an outgrowth of your simple solutions mindset.

Either pick another example or admit that the myth of "the better mousetrap" or the myth of free market competition among giant corporations that own congress, is ...mythical...when you're talking huge investments in infrastructure.

But my real purpose in posting is to question the theme of neutrality or "free internets". It all confuses the hell out of me as an end user.  I appreciate the insights you all have given me. But, why would this form of retailing be immune from taxation anyway? What makes it so special that cities like ours,  that rely on sales taxes, should suffer because retailers start making change without closing the till? I ask this not as a Lib or a pro tax and spend, blah, blah, blah.Don't go there. But just out of curiosity.

Nothing is free and when one door closes another opens. Since more sales are being made online without taxes being collected, I am in reality paying less taxes. Everyone who buys online is. That's great for some, a loss for others. But think about this. Should I decide to buy a magazine at the book store, I pay a tax on it. Yet, when I obtain that same text through the magazine's website, I do not. The price at the local bookstore also includes the city property taxes, license fees, etc. that goes towards improving streets, protecting the public etc. The website does not. They make their money from advertising I suppose. Isn't that patently unfair to the bricks and mortar store who committed to my community?  Aren't they sucking the life out of my community by avoiding the traditional costs of doing business?

So, why is this form of retailing being pleasured with no taxes? Markets change and the way we do business changes but death and taxes are always the cost of life. Why do you want these giant companies to monopolize AND get a free ride?


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: nathanm on April 06, 2010, 09:56:39 pm
There is no ability to switch to "vote with your dollars."
This is why I am strongly in favor local/state funded last mile fiber with strong open access rules. Basically, a city or state should issue bonds to build a fiber network which they both run an ISP over (to jump-start things) and offer nondiscriminatory access to other ISPs to offer whatever service tiers they desire for a delivery price high enough to cover the capex and ongoing maintenance of the fiber and necessary infrastructure to provide the back-end stuff needed to connect the various ISPs to the network.

The "ISP" could easily offer TV service, site-to-site transport within town, or any number of other value-adds.

The last mile part is more akin to roads or sewers from my perspective, while I think there's plenty of room for competition in what services the ISPs provide over the government-owned fiber.

As far as "Internet taxation," many states already require ISPs to collect sales tax for their services, and I personally have no problem with Internet-based retailers being required to collect sales tax in the buyer's jurisdiction, just like any other store. Use tax is so widely ignored it's beyond ridiculous. The states have collectively worked hard and come up with a pretty good system that makes it easy for retailers to determine the tax rate applicable to any sale, and even offer a SOAP interface to determine the appropriate tax rate so the process can be automated in a way that puts almost no burden on those retailing over the Internet.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Red Arrow on April 06, 2010, 10:02:52 pm
I don't know if any gets distributed to "your home town" but please see Line 20 of Form 511, OK State Income Tax where you get to add the Use Tax for items you didn't pay sales tax on.  

I try to buy from local merchants when I can, just to support local business.  Internet competition has brought down prices locally in many cases because the local merchants do have to compete with the internet vendors.  Good for consumers and makes it easier to want to buy locally.  Unfortunately, too many times I have to go the internet to get what I want.  Before  the internet I used the phone and advertisements in magazines etc.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: waterboy on April 07, 2010, 06:33:32 am
Yeah, we all obey the speed limits too. ;) No, I'm talking about a fundamental shift in the way business is done and why no one thinks the infrastructure supporting it, owned and paid for by the people, should be subject to taxes. The resulting impact on bricks and mortar business and the communities they support is real.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Gaspar on April 07, 2010, 06:41:09 am

Nothing is free and when one door closes another opens. Since more sales are being made online without taxes being collected, I am in reality paying less taxes. Everyone who buys online is. That's great for some, a loss for others. But think about this. Should I decide to buy a magazine at the book store, I pay a tax on it. Yet, when I obtain that same text through the magazine's website, I do not. The price at the local bookstore also includes the city property taxes, license fees, etc. that goes towards improving streets, protecting the public etc. The website does not. They make their money from advertising I suppose. Isn't that patently unfair to the bricks and mortar store who committed to my community?  Aren't they sucking the life out of my community by avoiding the traditional costs of doing business?

So, why is this form of retailing being pleasured with no taxes? Markets change and the way we do business changes but death and taxes are always the cost of life. Why do you want these giant companies to monopolize AND get a free ride?


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Conan71 on April 07, 2010, 08:14:11 am
Here's where I can see the company line on this by the AT&T's with an over-simplification analogy:

Let's say you've got a good sized farm, you raise produce, livestock, and even have some hybrid products no one else produces.  You spend your own money to build some roads to get your products to market.  You pay your neighbors for right-of-way when you cross their land, you pay local, state, and federal governments when you cross their land.  You even pay maintenance fees or on-going access fees to others.  You have a large investment in your road and you spend money keeping it maintained and upgraded as needed.  You pay the government taxes on your profits, enterprise fees, franchise fees, property taxes, etc.

Now the government steps in and wants to tell you which products you can and cannot ship on the roads that you built and paid for.  They also want to tell you whose products you can or cannot promote more favorably on the shelves to the consumer, and they want to further tax your product and your customers.

That's where it gets a little kinky for Libertarian in me.  Far as I know, fiber optic networks were paid for and installed mostly by companies like Williams & AT&T, not the federal government.  It's not like a publicly-funded interstate highway infrastructure.

I'm going to defer to the people who actually work around this area as far as what the ultimate good or bad ramifications are about the FCC action and the court ruling.  Just illustrating the logic behind the skepticism on this.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: sgrizzle on April 07, 2010, 08:35:00 am
The problem with your analogy is that if you have DSL at home, AT&T doesn't connect you straight to youtube, you got through multiple companies who have always sold on the size of the pipe, and allowed any content. If say, sprint decides they don't like youtube traffic anymore then your AT&T connection, your COX connection, whatever it is, may not work anymore because sprint owns some key pieces of the internet infrastructure.

The protections being sought aren't just about your home ISP, but also the backbone of the internet as a whole. The problem with Conan's analogy is that with a few key telecom's controlling this backbone, THEY are the "big brother" role who want to filter, and basically extort, more money which hurts smaller businesses and individuals. Imagine if the city said that the only pizza delivery trucks allowed on the roads were those that paid them (in addition to their already existing taxes) $20,000 per year? All the small stores would quit delivering and the big chains would gain more market share. Sure, maybe someday someone could build a whole new set of roads and let small pizza companies drive on them, but that's extremely unlikely to ever happen.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: we vs us on April 07, 2010, 09:29:00 am
It shares some similarity with the national rail system.  It was built by a patchwork of private concerns, and traffic has to share the load.  This is one reason why Amtrak has had problems in the past being efficient on long hauls . . . they don't have precedence on private tracks and have to either shuttle to the side or wait outside of major switching junctions to let private haulers go through. 

The problem with this sort of system is that privately-owned and operated infrastructure -- without regulation --  makes further development inefficient because each ownership interest can determine their own profit margin.  It makes costs for people using the system unpredictable and possibly prohibitive. 



Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: YoungTulsan on April 07, 2010, 03:50:26 pm
Wow,

I work in a related industry, and I have to tell you that your understanding of this issue is WAY off base and this is a very bad, very anti-competitive (anti-capitalistic) ruling.

Let's say an Internet provider, let's say AT&T, doesn't like you using Vonage for phone service. Done, Vonage can't be used on AT&T's network. You would have to buy phone service from AT&T. Let's say they sign an exclusive deal with Bing to provide search on their network. Boom, Google and Yahoo are gone.



I think we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.   AT&T restricting what sites you can go to, or giving the Feds regulatory rule over the internet.  I fear the latter more because it opens the door to banning free speech on the internet.  AT&T is a business, and if you don't like their business practices, you can take your money elsewhere.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: sgrizzle on April 07, 2010, 04:07:22 pm
I think we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.   AT&T restricting what sites you can go to, or giving the Feds regulatory rule over the internet.  I fear the latter more because it opens the door to banning free speech on the internet.  AT&T is a business, and if you don't like their business practices, you can take your money elsewhere.

As I said before.. you can't. It is very possible that cox's cable network passes through AT&T fiber at some point so if AT&T cuts off vonage you are just up a creek. That's it.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: YoungTulsan on April 07, 2010, 04:12:29 pm
As I said before.. you can't. It is very possible that cox's cable network passes through AT&T fiber at some point so if AT&T cuts off vonage you are just up a creek. That's it.

Are there examples of this happening?


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: godboko71 on April 07, 2010, 04:39:03 pm
Are there examples of this happening?

Have you ever had an issue getting to a website knowing it isn't down? If you have, then you have most likely contacted the website or your ISP for support, either one you call will have you run a trace rout (unless your ISP blocks such network commands then they will run it for you.) The reason they have you run this command is to find out where its dieing for you. Right not this normally happens by accident when a line gets cut or a router gets changed.

In the future any pipelines you ISP goes through could effect which sites you have access to and which ones you have to pay extra to get to. What really sucks about this is these companies are already charging users for bandwidth through cable or DSL bill, and the websites already have to pay for there bandwidth trough there hosting/co-location/rack fees.

It is one thing as a site builder if I opt to pay extra to have servers housed within your network to let my users on your network to have extra speed, it is another all together to ban my site so you can charge even more to consumers.

Though this is a case where we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we don't regulate, ISP's will start double and triple charging at both ends to keep stock holders happy and an ever increasing cost to consumers. That will in time spur so called "spider" and other cheap/fast to implement and expand networks, though the operators of these networks will have to pay high premiums to the backbone providers, and in some areas where there is only one pipe line some users may still have all the restrictions. Another downside to this in the short to mid term is the speed and reliability of these networks.

If we do regulate, the ISP's will find other ways to raise our bills, and the government will add to this burden over time by forcing fees to have the capitol to enforce any new regulations. On the plus side, it should limit the ISP's from stifling innovation on the internet, though it may limit some innovation in the distribution of internet.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: godboko71 on April 07, 2010, 04:41:30 pm
Want to add a disclaimer, most ISP's will use filters on there direct residential/business clients and not there wholesale threw traffic. At least not at first.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: nathanm on April 07, 2010, 04:52:48 pm
Are there examples of this happening?
Sure, several long distance companies decided they'd quit passing calls to certain numbers in Iowa.

The lack of competition in ISPs is particularly annoying when big ISPs get in peering fights and decide to sever links with each other. The big guys don't pay for transit, they just peer with other ISPs to pass traffic directly between each other's network, so if they disconnect from each other, there's no "routing around the damage" for customers of the two networks.

This has happened semi-regularly over the past few years.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: sgrizzle on April 07, 2010, 06:12:17 pm
Are there examples of this happening?

At the moment it is conjecture as the big telco's have been investigating "internet prioritization and filtering" as another way of making money off the pipes they already charge people to use. They've been testing the waters to see if the feds will block them.

I apologize in advance for this... but this is one of the promo videos for net neutrality.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VrCCpaEoxI[/youtube]


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: YoungTulsan on April 07, 2010, 08:25:06 pm
At the moment it is conjecture as the big telco's have been investigating "internet prioritization and filtering" as another way of making money off the pipes they already charge people to use. They've been testing the waters to see if the feds will block them.

Would it be in their interests to screw their customers though?  Internet users can get pretty angry over stuff like that.  What if, instead, they wound up charging fees on those things rather than shut them down to "make money off the pipes" as you suggest?  Or was that outlawed when they deregulated telecoms in 1996?


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: nathanm on April 07, 2010, 08:37:06 pm
Would it be in their interests to screw their customers though?
Several companies already do screw their customers with impunity. Cox was blocking BitTorrent in some markets for a while. They return fake DNS results to redirect you to their "search page" if you mistype a domain. There's supposed to be an opt-out, but it doesn't work.

Both at&t and Cox block a bunch of ports besides, because they presume to know better than the customer what they should be doing with their computer. The point being, that even in our local market, the two biggest ISPs started down that road long ago.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: YoungTulsan on April 07, 2010, 08:41:28 pm
Bunch of coxblockers.


Title: Re: FCC Gets Hands Slapped
Post by: Conan71 on April 07, 2010, 09:27:55 pm
Bunch of coxblockers.

Post of the year candidate.