The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100205_16_A12_Thenew634266

Brady District unveils its part for PlaniTulsa
The centerpiece of the district's plan is an $8 million park project.
 
By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
Published: 2/5/2010  4:10 AM
Last Modified: 2/5/2010  5:06 AM



 Read the complete Brady Arts District small-area plan.


The new comprehensive plan working its way through the approval process is all about a grand vision for the city of Tulsa.

But to realize that vision, city officials know that development will have to be done piece by piece in the form of small-area plans. Thursday night, the Brady Arts District threw its hat into the ring.

"Because PlaniTulsa (the comprehensive plan) is going to have to provide the big picture, this plan is going to say what we can have here down at the neighborhood level," Theron Warlick, a planner with the city of Tulsa, said at a public unveiling of the district's small-area plan.

About 200 people showed up for the event, held at Living ArtsSpace, 307 E. Brady St., just a few steps from the new ONEOK Field.

The juxtaposition was not lost on Steve Ganzkow, a principal of the American Residential Group, who said the ballpark and the BOK Center aren't the only developments Tulsans can expect to see in or near the district.

"I can tell you that there is at least $100 million in new projects that are shovel-ready that are going to happen in the next two years," he said.

The centerpiece of the plan is a park that is to be built on the current site of the Central Freight Lines parking lot, bordered by Brady and Cameron streets and Boston and Cincinnati avenues.

The $8 million park project will be funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation and will include a pavilion, water features and other amenities.

"At the end of June of this year, you will see all the Central Freight trucks start to exit Brady," Jeff Stava, chairman of the Tulsa Industrial Authority, told the audience.

But before the park is created above ground, $5 million will be spent to create an underground geothermal well field and distribution system.

That project is being paid for with federal stimulus funds that are being matched by the Kaiser Foundation.

When completed in 2011, it will provide hot and cold air for the Mathews Warehouse, a building purchased by the city and the foundation to house art-related activities.

Perhaps the most immediate impact of the plan will be seen on the streets.

Stava said that over the next 18 months, 600 trees and 250 dark-sky-friendly LED lights will be put in place in the Brady and neighboring Greenwood districts. Some are coming soon.

"The streetscaping plan will be unveiled around the ballpark" beginning next month, he said.

That would be sooner than the small-area plan itself is in place.

The Planning Commission must approve the plan, and the City Council must adopt it, before it is official, a process that could take months.



Kevin Canfield 581-8313
kevin.canfield@tulsaworld.com

Now they have me curious, because the Brady District was so gung-ho for eye-unfriendly Acorn lights the last time money was being passed around.
It would be interesting to see what they decided upon, (since I hadnt heard they were even considering it).

Any word on the new KOTV building next door?

"I can tell you that there is at least $100 million in new projects that are shovel-ready that are going to happen in the next two years," he said.

I found that quote interesting.  Does that include the two new parks (the one mentioned in the article and the John Hope Franklin Memorial Park), as well as the Matthews Warehouse/Living Arts Center, the proposed Pops museum, the Tribune Lofts, the lofts at Detroit & Brady, and the streetscaping?

First a smart a$$ answer from watching KOTV news...I think they're building it in OKC.

Second, I'm happy to see any of this.  The park development and funding from the Kaiser Foundation is fantastic.

Since I never know how this stuff works, why will it take months for approval from the planning commission and the council?

I second that, KOTV's news has gone WAY downhill since it became a branch of the OKC station. I watch them much less than when it was a fully independent station.

KOTV project was dead as of Sunday. (That's when their contract on the land expired)

If I was a developer that land would be very attractive. You could put a mid-range hotel there facing the park and use the area behind to build a small parking structure, maybe only one deck over a surface lot. With not hotels north of the tracks you would automatically get the travelling baseball teams, people coming for concerts, etc. I would also build it so only the front desk is on the first floor and have the rest of the floor leasable to retail.

Is KOTV not still located at 3rd & Elgin?  Are they simply staying there or will they not have a local presence at all? 

Your idea about the hotel is a good one, if not that site then the east side of the park with the main entrance on Brady between Cincinnati and Detroit (near Spaghetti Warehouse).

3rd & Frankfort to be more exact.  They consolidated some management and other admin/graphic functions to their OKC sister station a while back.  I think it's more or less a skeleton crew in Tulsa these days.  On-air personalities, reporters and whatever is needed to run the building, but that's it.

Their chickadees are getting long in the tooth too....

According to a very reliable source, they are still in negotiations to start construction and finalize the details, but are waiting to save on construction costs since prices have been falling.

And they're not a "skeleton" of the OKC station. They still have two news teams, and recently hired a morning content director to focus just on the AM and Noon shows so the PM Content Director can focus just on the evening shows.

Ah.. the good 'ol 1st street lofts defense.

Thats reflected in the latest numbers. KOTV saw declines this past year: http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectID=275&articleID=20100203_275_D5_JayLen188564

When does the city take possession of that little property for Sager's massive failure?

They aren't holding the deed are they? Which is worse? TDA or MS?

Actually, it's nothing like the First Street Lofts. Those have been underway for how many decades now? The KOTV/Griffin land has only been under "development" (if you will) for the last year. That is an entirely different situation.

The numbers may be slightly down, but they're still the most-watched channel in town. Remaining in first place is considered a death-knoll now?

Here is the proposed park bordered by Brady, Cincinnati, Cameron, and Boston.  The Matthews Warehouse/Living Arts Center is at the south end and the KOTV building (if it ever gets built) will be at the north end.  This will be a great addition to the area along with the streetscaping going in along Brady and Elgin.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/ppark.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/park2.jpg)

And hopefully once those projects are complete, as well as the IDL reconstruction, they can beautify the onramps/exits from I-244 at Cincinnati and Detroit and better connect OSU to Brady with improved landscaping, lighting, and sidewalks.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/osu.jpg)

I really hope KOTV is a dead deal or goes back to the drawing board.  I've thought their 'plaza' was a poor concept.  They intended to build a plaza/green space of some sort on the south side of their building up against Cameron and across the street from the Brady plaza.  That juxtaposition would have a diminishing affect on the centerpiece of the entire district 'Brady Park'.

That park will work so much better if it has active edges on as many sides as possible.  It would have hurt the Brady District and the park, imo, to have a single user that doesn't draw much traffic (pedestrian, bike, and otherwise) just to the north.  The north side of that park would have ineffect become a dead zone - no reason to engage that side of the park (how many people would walk to and from KOTV?).  A single use on that side gives fewer people a reason to utilize, and give life to, the park.  And the last thing we want on one side of an urban park is another vacuum 'open space that looks pretty but doesn't get used'.

That property up against 244 could be utilized much more efficiently to anchor and stretch the district.  A multi-story building with commercial (restaurants)/office uses on the ground floors with residential above with parking up against the highway wall would do well to mitigate the impact of the highway and the noise on the park.

I would also like to see as much as possible,,,ground floor retail or businesses right up to the sidewalks, all around that park. 

I think a Brady hotel should go into these buildings across from the Cains.

(http://riverviewtulsa.org/images/main.bmp)

That would be awesome.

Carltonplace...good things come to those who wait...and very good things are coming for the Brady.

Then all of us Tulsans should be getting the best things in the world, since we've been doing nothing but waiting since the dawn of time. ;) I have very high hopes for Brady.

Unrelated to the hotel, I don't understand why the streetscape plan doesn't follow a more 3-dimensional approach--it follows Brady and some other main streets, but go around just about any corner and it stops. Don't we want to stop the 'strip'-like development and move toward 3-dimensional neighborhoods? I understand the purpose is to connect the Brady District with other parts of downtown, but this 'plan' just doesn't look complete to me. If it were just an initial phase, I'd say, "ok, that's a great start", but this looks like a final deal. No more trees and streetscaping except on those long strips.

You have to start somewhere, and Brady is being built up as the 'main street' in the district connecting the Brady Theater to ONEOK Field past the new park.  And then it's equally important to connect Brady to the rest of downtown in this case Elgin which connects south to Blue Dome and north to OSU, and Cheyenne which is an at-grade crossing that connects to the BOK Center area.  I would think that after this phase is finished they will tackle other thoroughfares such as Detroit (part of which is included in phase 1), Cincinnati, Main, Denver, and Archer.  And once the new Boulder Bridge is built and a streetcar line finalized we will see additional streetscaping there as well.

I really wish we hadn't blocked off Main at 1st and 3rd as that would be a solid connection to the rest of downtown from Brady.  All it would take would be the Crowne Plaza moving its meeting/banquet halls facilities to the east and tearing down part of the Williams Forum... ;)

That would be fine, but like I said, this doesn't look like a 'phase', it looks like, "this is the finished product and no one should expect anything more than what's in this plan".


I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've thought about that. When I have enough money, that's what I am going to do. There is no need for superblocks. Ever. Especially superblocks that destroyed invaluable historic assets and the oldest buildings in our city.

I'll pitch in, just have to convince or buy Crowne Plaza and hope BOK builds a new tower downtown allowing Williams to vacate Forum opening those blocks up for Main to connect once again..

The PPG Industries building is being converted into condos, with restaurant and grocery space to boot. (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Downtown-warehouse-to-become-apartments-grocery/Lyuzht7gt0q2oVgbdFAm2Q.cspx)

"The old PPG Industries building in Tulsa's Brady District is being revitalized. It sits directly across the street just south of ONEOK Field, at North Detroit and Archer.

It's hard to believe looking at it today but by fall, the old building will be home to some of the coolest apartments in Downtown Tulsa, complete with indoor parking and amazing views of ONEOK Field.

"We have a lot of people interested. These are real industrial style apartments with brick walls and industrial style finishes that we are doing. It will have high ceilings and exposed ceilings," said Developer Macy Snyder.

She and her family have succeeded at this before. After decades of neglect, they transformed the Mayo Hotel back to its former glory.

Snyder said the success they experienced in leasing apartments at the Mayo shows the need for housing in downtown is there. Especially since the Detroit Lofts will be smaller and more affordable than most rental properties in the area. "They are smaller units. They range from 600 square feet to 1200 square feet. They will cost a dollar a square foot. So it appeals to a lot of the younger people."

The lofts will be flanked by a grocery store on the Archer side of the building, and a restaurant and bar on Detroit.

Tulsa Economic Development Director Mike Bunny expects to see even more development through that same corridor after ONEOK Field opens in the spring. "As people see the ballpark complete, they are starting to get interested in property that is close by. And they are starting to look at the opportunities the ballpark will generate."

Snyder agrees. "We see other development downtown when you get people living down here, other stuff starts to pop up."

The lofts are scheduled to open in August. The grocery store and restaurant will open later in the fall.

The developers hope to have the building placed on the National Register of Historic Places. Built in 1920, it burned during the Tulsa race riots a year later and was then rebuilt."

Not sure if we've mentioned this or not, but thought I'd share.

I would bet you could create an open pedestrian route through there without near as much mess.

I can't figure this out. Detroit and Archer is not "directly accross the street just south of ONEOK Field"
ONEOK is at Archer and Elgin and just south is a metal structure...which building is it that the Snyder's working on?

Three story building in the bottom left-hand corner of the webcam:
http://oxblue.com/pro/open/oneok/oneokfield

I bumped this thread because I was in the Brady district yesterday and I was excited by how many projects are either under way or kicking off.

Now Open: Hey Mambo and Brady Tavern
Completed: Ball park and JHF Park

Underway: Mathews Arts Building and Brady Park, Detroit Lofts

Beginning: Tribune Lofts expansion and Main St Hotel

Funded and in design: Boulder Bridge

Any idea when the street scaping projects will begin? This area should be dramatically different in three years.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/ppark.jpg)


EDITED TO ADD Detroit Lofts

Where have you seen that Tribune Loft expansion is beginning?  Seems every six months or so we're told that its just around the corner.  Sort of like First Street lofts, though I've given up all hope on that one.  Same with Boulder bridge.  I thought I read that there was no plans to rebuild it.

The hotel is clearly beginning because it has been fenced off and there is a construction trailer.  The Mathews warehouse is exciting, but it looks like only the east third of the building is starting this month.  I love what's going on, but just so darn slow.

On another note, the KOTV studio's sign is still up for construction north of the Mathews warehouse and the park.  I thought I read that KOTV had consolidated and is being run out of OKC.  Is there still a plan to build the KOTV studio?

A local business owner confirmed that the T loft expansion was starting when I asked about the construction fence that was erected in the parking lot (and all of the cars are gone).

They essentially de-localized KOTV as a Tulsa station with their "Oklahoma's Own" trademark (re-enforcing the appearance they are just a local bureau of an OKC operation), so if anything ever is built at that site, it will be significantly downscaled from the original plans.

The M.e.t. has just leased some warehouse space in the Brady district. We are losing our Blue Dome warehouse and are very excited to be able to find suitable space in the Brady area.

Our new space is on the corner of Cameron and Boulder behind the 209 club and directly west of the Hunt Club. We will be moving in over the next couple of months.

Haha...I worked in that warehouse one summer back in high school. It was a mess and I helped organize it for Williams. They told us it used to be the morgue not sure if that was true.

I heard over the weekend that the KOTV/Griffin building is back on track... Scheduled completion is Spring 2013..

Interesting.  That would leave a prime redevelopment opportunity at the KOTV studios at 3rd & Elgin.

Does KOTV have any kind of presence in the brick building at 3rd & Detroit?  The windows are plastered with "Six in the Morning" posters.  That is a really cool building that kinda sits alone, I figured if KOTV wasn't going to build a huge new media center in Brady they could occupy that building (if they didn't already) and if they needed to expand there is a small adjacent parking lot to the east.

I am most excited about the Matthews/Living Arts project.  I think it will all get built as planned, it will just take a couple of years longer than we all want.  It is one of the more exciting urban projects in Tulsa, that and the development around the BOK Center (Aloft Hotel and One Place/Cimarex Tower).

I've always like the Brady area, and I thought it had sort of stalled when the Blue Dome started growing, but it's good to see they both are growing. I've been going to the Brady area, even working there for a bit for 10 years, and I love the old city feel.

If that public square does indeed happen, it will be a huge complement to the area. People love open green spaces, and inviting public squares tend to keep more undesirable elements away.

@Michael: If you are moving out of the building on 1st, then do you know what will become of that space. I see it as prime real estate for another dining and/or drinking and/or retail establishment.

4 places in Brady were open for Brunch last Sunday...and I saw people in them.

-Edited to say I didn't mean Mexicali.  That place had a number of cars out front as well.

Yes. I am moving out of the space on 1st and Detroit in the Blue Dome. Yes, there are plans to convert it into another dining spot. It is too early to say who. It won't happen for a few months.

I posted it in the other thread, but it's relevant to this thread too.  From my office I can see that they are tearing up the parking lot next to the Tribune Lofts.  Is the expansion project finally underway?  Or is this something unrelated?  I'm also starting to think the fenced off lot and construction trailer accross the street where the hotel will eventually be might be related to the Tribune project and not the hotel project.

Seems like a good spot for a third new BBQ place in the Blue Dome District. If that goes well, perhaps a fourth will join us.

It'd be nice if instead of more places to eat there were more places to shop. While I appreciate Boomtown tees opening up (and I did shop there for Xmas though I must say the lack of sizes cut what I was going to spend by about 2/3 not to mention the shirts were just in screwed up piles in their cubby holes and the guy working couldn't be bothered to fold them or even get up from his little desk), there just needs to be more places to actually buy things. At some point we're not going to need another place to eat.

I agree, or at least a couple more entertainment type places like a movie theater, some museums and or art galleries or a bowling alley. It does seem that your going to start to see a saturation point with the restaurants here pretty quick.

+1 on the movie theater.  That is the missing link downtown.  Something unique like an Alamo Drafthouse-type cinema would do really well.  The Dust Bowl will be open in a few months so there is another entertainment venue.  I also agree about a museum.  Kaiser/TCF has discussed building a science museum in Tulsa, why not build it downtown?  All of the new restaurants are great but there needs to be other development to complement them.

I love the possibility of a science museum downtown just needs to be closer to what they have in St Louis http://www.slsc.org/ (http://www.slsc.org/) than what we had previously in the Harmon science center on 41st.

Perhaps someone doing a public movie showing in Blue Dome during warmer weather ala the Philbrook Museum and outside the William's center would help gauge some sort of movie need?

It's just a suggestion due to my affection for watching movies outside in the summer.

A theater downtown would be great.

I would like to see something like CityWalk from Bricktown in the the Brady District.  http://high.citybrickwalk.com/index.php

I like that you can go to one place and walk around to all the different clubs, lounges, and live music and only pay one cover to get in.

There are cover charges in Brady?  I've never paid one.  Am I going to all the old people bars?

Why not show movies in The Brady Theater? Get a roll up screen as big as the stage, bring in a sound system of some kind that can be moved when needed. Open up the bars and serve snacks and or food. Show movies on some nights where no other shows are scheduled.

Isn't there a bowling alley going in now being done by Elliott Nelson? And the Joe Mama's guy was on this board a couple of months ago saying he was working on a movie theater and was close to having a firm deal on it.

I remember Blake discussing this at one point.  That would be cool to see Blake and Nelson team up to create an Alamo Drafthouse style cinema downtown.  I still think the parking lot at 2nd & Elgin is the perfect spot for such a theater, with a big neon marquis fronting Elgin..

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectID=274&articleID=20101024_44_D1_ULNSul441407

This article from October puts an opening date of January for the "Dust Bowl" downtown, does anyone have more info this?

Working on it, though not with Elliot, not exactly like Alamo Draft House and probably not at 2nd and Elgin.

We've got a couple of projects in line ahead of the theater, but it's definitely in the shoot. We've been looking at locations, developing the concept, and figuring out the details. I can't tell you everything, but I can tell you that it's going to be really cool and unique - seriously, nothing like it that I've ever seen. Until we give people something better, however, they're going to keep calling any theater with food and drink an "Alamo Draft House" style theater. I'm excited about giving people a new way to think about their movie going experience. I've long believed that a theater was the biggest missing piece to downtown and I'm excited about bringing it down here. We also plan on paying some nice respect to the Ritz, Rialto, Majestic, and Orpheum in our design and branding. We hope to shine a light on the past and celebrate the theaters that once stood downtown.

I agree with the other posts about the retail. We'd love to see some more of that down here. We're putting a small music store on Elgin as the "front" to Back Alley. It's mostly just motivated by my desire to see some more retail in the neighborhood.

We've got some issues with land acquisition in The Blue Dome District. All the nice property that you see that's sitting empty is likely owned by someone who is not wanting to sell it. The one property that is for sale in the district is lots of $$$, but it's cool.

Until some of that opens up, we're going to have to develop where it's possible. You may have noticed that instead of the Blue Dome developing like a ripple effect, it's starting to move in a linear fashion down Elgin towards 5th with the bowling alley, Fassler and the new project next door to it. Don't be surprised if the development takes a life of it's own and becomes a linear strip instead of the previously planned 9 block square. The nice red building across from El Guapos, the Pawn Shop, the small parking lots and the big lot across from Joe Momma's are not really in play. Until they are, we're going to have to do something a little different with the development path.

Tulsa bug, thanks for the business. Sorry we didn't have the sizes you were looking for at Boomtown. We were pretty busy during December and had some trouble keeping up with the demand. Now that we've done it once, we'll be better prepared for next December.

Thanks to all for your support. Your continued interest and enthusiasm for downtown, and for new and unique development in general, will continue to play a vital role in our city's progress.

Blake, thank you for taking the risk to bring businesses that people want to patronize in the Blue Dome.  It's much appreciated!

Great to hear.  If you couldn't acquire the lot at SE corner of 2nd & Elgin the KOTV property at 3rd & Elgin (which presumably will be up for sale once their new Brady building is finished) would be a great spot.  Also the parking lot at the NE corner of 3rd & Elgin.  I personally like that Blue Dome is developing more in a linear fashion down Elgin...just wish there were was a nicer streetscape south of 3rd and more street trees..

I always walk by the big red warehouse across from El Guapo and always wondered why it sits vacant.  Is it worn down? Too expensive to renovate?  Stubborn or absent owner?

More retail is coming to the Blue Dome - today's Tulsa World reports that Lyon's Indian Store is moving to the Blue Dome District:
 
"Distinctive signage at Lyon's Indian Store/Tulsa Treasures was taken down from 401 E. 11th St. and taken to the store's new location at 111 S. Detroit Ave.

Co-owner Larry Lyon said the move will allow the 95-year-old Tulsa fixture to be in the middle of a more vibrant atmosphere."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20110115_11_A13_CUTLIN514398

I'm no entrepreneur, but I've got some ideas for the Pawn Shop..
Basically, any retail in that space besides the pawn shop woulb be great.
I think it'd clean up great.

The word is that the current owner of the building is essentially refusing to sell the property. It's a cool space, but if it's not available, it will remain as it is.

Someday, those things will open up. Let's hope it's sooner than later, yeah?

I've heard stubborn owner who think it's worth much more than it really is.  I've always thought that would make a great location for a microbrewery.  I've heard the same story about the empty lot next to McNellies at 1st & Elgin that is such an eyesore.  Really unfortunate, not sure what can be done though?

Empty? That is where the contracted downtown maintenance company works out of.

News on Boulder Bridge, per Mike Easterling in Urban Tulsa:


http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A38382

What do we have to do to get a bridge that's not like the other one-ways downtown. Something with a balance between car and pedestrian traffic would be nice. The other one-ways are ridiculous. Completely unnecessary four lanes of traffic with a teeny tiny little sidewalk between cars and the safety railing.

At the very least, they should make that stretch two-way for cars. It was one-way before, wasn't it? We're going for fewer one ways, so extending the two-way portion of boulder south another block is a no-brainer.

If they're gonna spend the money, why not make Elgin into an overpass bridge for people getting to and from the blue dome district to the ballpark?  I've been caught behind that train several times.  Not that it's a necessity, but I don't really see the Boulder Bridge causing much problems since you can use Cincinnati and Main just as easily.  Just a thought.

Is it not in the long-range plan to make Boulder entirely two-way?  I thought it was, along with Cheyenne, Main between 6th & 10th (the last remaining part that is one-way), 4th and 5th.

And I agree about the overpasses, from a pedestrian standpoint they are terrible.  And they are the main link between Brady and downtown.  Cincinnati and Detroit are currently 4 lanes of traffic with 1 lane on each side for parallel parking.  I think both need to be redone so there are 3 traffic lanes, 1 bike lane (going in the direction of traffic) and the two lanes for parallel parking.  On the overpasses it would be the same but the sidewalk could be twice as wide with street trees and better lighting on each side and still fit 3 traffic lanes and the bike lane.  I would also like to see this done on the other unnecessarily-wide one-ways downtown like 1st & 2nd and 7th & 8th.

Tulsa needs a Project 180: http://www.okc.gov/project180/ (http://www.okc.gov/project180/)

I remember seeing posts on TNF that a pedestrian overpass is intimidating because you couldn't see over the peak. An at grade crossing of the RR was preferred.  An overpass would also block views of the neighborhood.

I don't particularly agree but that is what I remember.

BKdotCom touches on the arrogance and hubris of the urban newbies wanting to "clean up" the area.  Completely without regard to the history and variety of the area.  Flashing back to 1970 planning!!

Maybe a boutique for the pawn shop??  Yeah, there's a "Williams Tower" improvement to the area....

By the way, the pawn shop has been there since 1969 when it consolidated two shops (Rose with AAA Trading Post) that were forced out of their previous locations to make way for that same Williams Tower.  Urban renewal victims.  That shop has contributed more to the economy and financial background than any little boutique will EVER.  It should be embraced as the vital contributor that it is.  Maybe a city grant to help with some window repair and restoration?  And I would almost bet there isn't an elevator in this town that is as cool as the one in that shop.  It has hauled everything from Model T's to TV's.  From the horse and buggy age to the space age.

Rather than trying to 'change' what is already good about the area, use some of that wasted empty space just to the east and build something with a little character to match the history of downtown.

Typical suburbanites - kind of like what is happening to Broken Arrow...move to a new area because they "like" the pastoral or in this case, historical nature of the area.  Then bring their crap with them and ruin it.  Happens in urban areas, too.  "Blue Dome" - how pretentious and pure Yuppie!!  It's the Veteran's Bar!  

As a side note, that shop had some of the original movie theater carpet from the old Rialto theater on Main street.  Haven't looked for a couple years, but would not surprise me if it is still around.  Wow!  It was about 40 years old when it was moved there in 1970.  It is 80 years old now, if it is still around.

Will try to check this week and see.  Will let everyone know. (Whether you want to or not...)

Remind me to tell you about the bus repair garage that used to be on that empty lot just to the west of the pawn shop.  And maybe the "May Rooms" on first, just north of there?

No sense or appreciation of history.

Looking out my window today, there is activity on the lot east of the Griffin Communications Site, west of John Hope Park, and north of the Gypsy coffee house (if it makes it easier to visualize, the lot is bounded by Cincinnati to the west, Detroit to the East, I-244 to the north, and i'm not sure what the street Gypsy Coffee house is on, but that street to the south).

Any idea what's going on there?

  Where is the "Energy America" center going?  Rumor has it they now have a chunk of property in the Brady that was donated to them.

whoa whoa whoa!
did I say raze the Pawn Shop??  No I didn't
Is that Pawn Shop sacred and or have a history I'm not aware of (other than maybe having some 40yr old carpet from a different building)?
Is a fresh coat of paint sacrilege?

I have a great appreciation for the history and buildings downtown.
That's why I think it's a shame that the building is looking like crud and could be restored.

What do you think about Blake and Eliot revitalizing the Blue Dome area?
Are they taking a dump on history?
The Tulsa Club building has a history... It should remain as is?
The Pearl district?  You must be against that too.

What am I missing?

On my recent drive around Blue Dome and Brady, I saw a bunch of buildings with potential.  Some already look cleaned up and inviting.  To me, many of them just look tired. Some are presently being used but just don't look inviting.  Some had OK paint but it looked like it was the 75th coat.  Maybe the front kind of looked OK but the other parts, still visible from the street, even at 20 mph, appeared neglected and forgotten.  A hodge podge of brick, graffiti, faded paint, boarded over window openings  and who knows what else are not appealing to me.  Faded painted on business names may be in style but not one I appreciate.  I would say sand blast them off or repaint them to look fresh again.

I like old buildings.  They have more character than almost anything new.  They also had character compared to new buildings when those old buildings were new.  If we are trying to preserve the past, make the places look like they did in their prime. I realize it takes $ and time.  Not everyone can do it all at once.  It should be an eventual goal to make the whole area inviting visually.  Sometimes 40 or more years of neglect needs more than one more coat of paint to make it nice.

I am not going to name any places because I know people are trying to fix the place up.  I just want them to know what I think would make the area more attractive.  Tastes change with age and maybe I would think differently if I were still 20 or 30 something.

  Interesting.  I was recently asked to possibly paint a sign on a new business going in the Blue Dome. They wanted it to look old and worn as if it had been there from ages ago and the paint had worn off.  That "grungy old warehouse" look is, well,,, just a different type of look.  I was on another forum a while back where people were arguing about which city had the "best grunge" lol.  I was actually lamenting how we have so little lol.  There are plenty of other places in town that have that brand spankin new look, or the "Tuscan" look, etc. if you prefer that. But don't begrudge us our little bit o kewl grunge 8)  

I didn't say I wanted new Tuscan.  I just don't care for the run-down, neglected look.  Old but well maintained is great.  It wouldn't surprise me if I am out of touch with fashion.  I am probably influenced by my younger (sub-teen) days when we had to drive through some of the less affluent parts of Philadelphia to take dad to Phila Int'l Airport.  I still remember thinking I never want to live like that.

20 something was a long time ago.

I am with you Red Arrow.

I think the old and beat up look is OK, but I think the cleanly painted and freshened up look is much better to me.

What was said;

I'm no entrepreneur, but I've got some ideas for the Pawn Shop..
Basically, any retail in that space besides the pawn shop woulb be great.
I think it'd clean up great.

Any retail in that space besides the pawn shop would be great.  IOW, get rid of the pawn shop so something more "yuppie worthwhile" and/or esthetically pleasing to the sensibilities.  What if Ray wants to continue to run the pawn shop there? 

Well, I guess removal would be for the greater good....THAT is the 1970 urban renewal attitude I am talking about!

Repair of windows and some paint would do wonders, but then there goes the grunge!

I still submit there is more than enough bare land a block away to do all the nouveau-riche yuppie boutique crap anyone could stand without touching the place.  I'm thinking Old Navy.  Or Abercrombie.  Would that Tulsa have the foresight to require any new building to maintain some sense of architectural consistency to the area...

I actually find a lot of "new" stuff to be sterile and lacking character.  I believe it is more a matter of the design rather than the newness of it.

Since Artist brought up that grunge is kewl, I spent my fair share of time a dive bar in Va Beach when I was in the Navy in the early 70s.  I enjoyed my time there.  I went the first time with some friends.  It was not a place I would have gone into solo. As I got to know the other customers, some became good friends.  I got to know the owner and managers.  I even helped move and reconstruct the bar (not the building, just the part where you can sit, drink, and talk with the bartender) when another portion of the building became availalble and the bar (space available for the business) expanded. I went there in spite of the appearance, not because of it.  The EM Club on base was a nicer building but it wasn't as fun. (Except the EM Club did sometimes have topless dancers during the lunch hour.)

The point I am trying to make is that I believe downtown can have its grunge but will need something between grunge and new Tuscan (or really new anything) to get beyond a core clientele.

Then the building will continue to fall into disrepair.
Maybe it's tough love.  The building is old enough that it should be able to take care of itself.

In my original post, I was trying to say that it'd be nice to have someone with the resources to restore the place occupying the place.    Be it pawn-shop, grocery-store, tattoo parlor, bail-bondsman, or boutique shop.

Apparently you're a good friend of Ray
I didn't mean to offend

Was it this mural by chance?

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/287244772.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1304092612&Signature=ms0i58rPGM5rBvNWotpOav0iQR8%3D)

http://twitpic.com/4r0nhg

Close, Blake had asked me if I could do the actual signage on the brick where the banner is now, and make it look old and worn.  I said absolutely.  He may give me a call, he may use someone else, or do something else entirely.  Ideas evolve and change with these things. 

 

I was noticing that wouldnt be allowed under the form-based code, which is a shame because it could be tastefully done under the right circumstances.

I'd like to see Back Alley get a Beale Street style neon.  I'm really excited for this place.  Blues is one of my favorite music styles, and barbeque is one of my favorite foods.  Add beer, and it's close to heaven.

http://roberthensley.com/events/baseball2007/beale-street-signs1.jpg (http://roberthensley.com/events/baseball2007/beale-street-signs1.jpg)

We're still planning on the painted sign facing Elgin (we'll call you next week, William), and a very large Beale Street inspired neon on the rooftop of the building facing 2nd street and visible overhead while dining/drinking on the rooftop.

We've got an appointment in May with the board of adjustment for the neon sign. Wish us luck. It's awesome.

Thanks for caring! We'll be open soon. Hope to see you all there.

I wish you well, and look forward to being back home again for a while this summer. Makes me happy to see Tulsans making a difference and changing the landscape down town.

Cheers!

Love seeing all the neon and signs along Elgin.  I hope someday there will be a movie theater facing that street with a huge neon marquee, especially on the east side of the street north of 2nd.  And a local microbrewery in the vacant building at 1st & Elgin..  :)

Maybe by that time, they can brew and sell more than 3.2 piss water.  But don't hold your breath.

Lots of activity in the Brady now. The Philbrook section of the arts lofts appears to have completed interior demo phase. Dirt is moving in the "to be" park accross the street. Elevator shafts are up at the Tribune expansion.

From Philbrook's FB post:

(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/227223_10150186814863634_25282913633_7107398_5171392_n.jpg)

Boulder bridge update from Urban Tulsa

(http://www.urbantulsa.com/binary/1e79/city2-1.jpg)

Jacoby said depending on how the bid process goes, construction of the bridge could begin in July or August. The work is expected to take 10 to 12 months.

http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A38890 (http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A38890)

Shhhh, don't let the OKC legislature know about this.

Red Arrow will be happy to read this part. ;D

This does sound like it'll be better than the other one-way bridges downtown.

Cincinnati, Detroit have four lanes of traffic, plus room for two extra lanes on the outsides, with teeny tiny little sidewalks shoehorned in there.

Six lanes when two would suffice.

Now I'm happy.
 :)

(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110525_VIsualArts0525p2.jpg)

http://www.tulsaworld.com/site/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleid=20110525_272_A1_CUTLIN722530

I like the look of this project.  The article indicates they are still a few million short.  Although they had the "ground breaking" yesterday, does anyone know if they are actually going to break ground until they have all the $ lined up?

I actually spoke with my brother, who is a PM for Flintco, about this project last night.  Based on that conversation, I think they are moving forward.

My guess is that they are pretty confident about securing that last couple of million...

EDIT: Just to be clear, my brother won't be the PM on this project... but he knows the guy who is.

This is typical for construction of non-profit projects.  They will raise enough to build the structure but not do finish work and furnishings.  The psychology of donors is really funny, they don't see the great risk this is, but they see a project rising from the dirt and are more willing to give money to finish.

It is hard to find donors that are willing to be the trailblazer or the first donor.  That has been the role GKFF has played so well over the last few years.  Other large donors are willing to put money towards a project if their peer or a respected donor is involved.

Excellent.  Thanks for the info.  A walk through the Brady this summer and seeing all the activity should cause any fence sitting donors to jump in.

Wonder whatever happened to Kevin Stephens and his project at Archer and Main (not to mention the old Synagogue at 14th Cheyenne)

Kevin's proposal was for Archer & Boston (south of Hey Mambo) but apparently full-through.  The hotel will be at Archer & Main and should start construction this summer or fall.  The lot at Archer & Boston is now going to be the Brady Flats developed by MetroPlains, a Minnesota developer, with construction starting later this year:
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110128_bradyapts0128p2.jpg)

The old synagogue redevelopment is alive but still in the fundraising stage.  Kevin's loft project at 15th & Trenton just finished up and the units are for sale.

I like seeing the Caz's block consumed by the Hotel and the flats.  Hope there are no delays.  The Tribune addition is going up at lightning speeds.  The parking garage looks complete and the bottom two floors are already framed.  I would hope the hotel would go up as soon as the apartments are done since the hotel site is currently a construction site for the apartments.

This thread got me to thinking about the early comparisons between the Brady District and OKC's Bricktown.  When I moved to Tulsa in 1997, all the talk was how awesome Bricktown was and Tulsa leaders were pushing for Brady to become Tulsa's version of Bricktown.  It was amusing talk because, at the time, the Brady District consisted of Cain's, Brady Theater, Mexicali, Spaghetti Warehouse, Caz's (the bar), and the Snooty Fox.

Since then, Bricktown has continued along the lines of a restaurant/bar/sports district with the retail addition of Bass Pro Shop and a large movie theater.  In contrast, the Brady's development remained somewhat stalled during much of the early 2000s, while the Blue Dome developed seemingly out of nothing, particularly when it came to any plan from the City of Tulsa.  In the last few years, the Brady District has taken a decided turn towards the arts.  With the Living Arts Center, the Philbrook/Gilcrease/TU project at the old Matthews Warehouse and HA HA (not to mention the planned Okla. Pop Museum), as well as some small studios/galleries, the Brady District is really becoming a much bigger draw than just a place to eat, drink and see a concert or a ball game.  Additionally, the Brady has a number of offices, businesses and housing dispersed throughout.  Throw in the Blue Dome and we really have a large array of activities and venues to offer locals and visitors.

As a result, I really think the Brady District is becoming a business, residential, entertainment and tourist district that is uniquely Tulsa in a way that I don't think Bricktown is "uniquely OKC."  And I'm not saying that to start a bash Bricktown thread.  While it has been halting and frustratingly slow, I think we are ending up with a much better Brady District than anyone ever imagined back in the late 1990s when we were just hoping to copy Bricktown.

Completely agree. In the Brady you can see a live show at Cains, Brady, HC, or Marquis. Have your violin fixed, try out for theater, buy jewelry, buy a sculpture or artisan chocolate, attend a glass blowing class, watch a drag show, stop in for a crafted cocktail at Brady, find comfort food, texmex, upscale and downscale italian, get an apartment, visit a local watering hole, visit an art gallery, walk a few blocks to a baseball game and more is on the way.

Good luck finding all of that in Bricktown

Which is the upscale Italian and downscale Italian?

I classed them by price, noodles and meatballs = Italian in Tulsa. Not a fan of Hey Mambo I see.

I'm pretty meh on Hey Mambo.  We had a forum lunch there a few months back and it really didn't stand out to me.

Or might be the fact "Mambo" is Cuban in origin and I can't get a Cuban sandwich there (must go to Caz's for that), or that the name is a clear rip-off of a mediocre wine. 

Quite true, Carlton. Brady/Blue Dome may be more of a lifestyle orientation with emphasis on diverse (if not obscure) offerings. But I don't think you all can deny the Bricktown its allure as well. Its more "big city". I visited there this early spring and was blown away by how well it has been planned and executed. Large, well kept, landscaped walkways, a good mixture of old and new architecture, period and kitsch, art and commercialism.

As much as I smirk at its sewer like canal with Disney-esque pontoon boats guided by bloated, blathering middle aged carnies ("on your left note the multi screen theatre established in 2008...."), it still serves as the leather thread that ties it all together. All the boats were filled and constantly running because of the OU/OSU game nearby, visitors for a softball tournament, early visitors for a concert etc. Visitors, visitors, visitors.

We impulsively stopped at a candy store in a 1920's era storefront (I never buy candy, anywhere, anytime) and ended up buying several bags of crazy chocolate flavored goodies. Had a pitcher of Sangria outdoors at a busy warehouse turned upscale restaurant overlooking the ballpark and the canal and was seated quickly, with good service.

Walked a half mile over to the oversize bronze sculptures representing the Land Rush that were very well done near the Bass Pro (Tulsa tax dollars no doubt helped) and all with little fuss. People like this place. We could have spent the day there and not have visited all the offerings. Sometimes a "big city" feel is a fun thing.

And that is the difference. Their goal was to attract throngs. All kinds of throngs. They planned for it and they executed the plan. Our goal appears to be in line with what we are more likely to achieve and more attuned to our city's personality. Ours is not that rigidly planned and appeals to a younger, edgier, more selective demographic. You almost have to fit into our demographic to enjoy Brady, whereas Bricktown serves multiple populations.

I like your insight otterbouy

Dean Martin song technically..

Hey Mambo, Mambo Italiano...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAQQ1Vlk1nE[/youtube]

One of the biggest problems still with our downtown districts is the connectivity (or lack thereof) between them.  The connection between the ballpark and Blue Dome is still really bad where the streetscape just stops at the tracks, and the sidewalk ends on the west side of the street.  The bridges at Cincinnati and Detroit still have ridiculously narrow sidewalks and bad lighting.  The Boulder bridge is still just a proposal.  Main doesn't connect from 1st to 3rd.  There are giant parking lots between the BOK Center and CBD (changing soon though) and in between the CBD/PAC and Blue Dome.  I could go on.  Improving these connections and the streetscapes with better sidewalks, lighting, trees and yes bike lanes would go a long way toward making downtown more connected and better.

Also sung by Louie Prima and featured in the movie "Big Night" about two brothers who own an struggling Italian restaurant that prepare a spectacular Italian dinner on the rumor that Louie Prima will be eating there.

I stand corrected.  Doesn't change that the dining experience was middling and not especially memorable. 

"Big Night", is a great movie!  Everyone who enjoys food should watch it at least once..

There's parts of Bricktown I like, but for the most part, it lacks a coziness that BD & Brady have, though the BD and Brady relationship is clumsy for reasons stated by SXSW.  I don't know it's a lifestyle orientation so much.  If you are hinting that these districts have more of an appeal for a younger demographic, I can see where you could draw that conclusion with the bars and some of the smaller retail operations.  The entertainment options though really offer something for all ages, like sports and four good size concert/performing arts venues offering something for every taste.  I like to see some of the retailers like Lee's and Fleet Feet moving to the area.  Those two stores will also appeal to a broad demographic as I see runners and cyclists ranging from just nearly out of diapers to the '80's (about ready for diapers again ;) )

I had forgotten that Dean did the pizza commercial music!

And George's Mommy did it first!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6i83V6mpUM

And GaGa did the Americano version!  Love it!!

one of my faves, you'll be starving for a good meal when the credits roll. 

I always feel bloated and hungover.  But it's still a good flick.

Everybody knows that the Rosemary Clooney version is the correct version.

Not too sure about that...a lot of the song places are talking about GaGa ripping off a Dean Martin song, so the kids just have no sense of history and appear to not be interested in learning.  Oh, well, kind of like The Wizard of Oz... Judy's not the first - but was the best - but the original with Stan Laurel is kind of interesting (I have the DVD).  Follows the book, unlike the 1939 version. 

Lady GaGa version, Mambo Americano, is pretty good.  Not really the same song, but she can really sing.

Friday night in the Brady was hopping. There were people everywhere; walking to the ball game, dining at the restaurants, in the galleries or headed to concerts. Club 209 (I think?) had a packed patio, so did Hey Mambo (great spot to see the fireworks). Over by DownTown bar (former deadtown) on Cheyenne Ave were scores of people going to parties in the apartments and the red bricks by the railroad.

Note: I took my bike and there were lots of other people on their bikes.

I can't believe the change since I moved downtown seven years ago when I would have been one of the only people out on the streets.

Enjoy it while you can.  If they build that new Juvenile Center on Archer the whole district is doomed...  ::)

On a serious note, "bicycles" reminded me Tulsa Tough returns next week.  Pro level criterium races in the Blue Dome Friday night, amateur and pro level in the Brady Saturday, and in Riverview on Sunday.  Crybaby Hill is starting to gain national recognition for the spectator scene. 

At any rate, downtown should have some really good crowds again next weekend.

C we will be on the hill at McBirney on Sunday. Come look for us. We can commiserate about the impending doom that the juvy next the clink represents.

Have a cold beverage ready for me.  I'm doing back-to-back centuries next weekend.  I was originally trying for "The Deuce" this year, but I'm still about 2 MPH short over 100 miles on these courses.  With favorable winds and some compatible riders to draft with, it could happen, but it's a remote chance I could do sub 5 hours both days this year.

Break out the armored trucks to transport patrons from ONEOK to their cars!

The Shock also open their home season Friday night at Bok at 7pm. 

I was in the Brady today and snapped this pic...it's rising fast!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/NewImage.jpg)

Is it all stick construction?  No iron in that structure?

I saw that over the weekend and wondered what it was gonna be.  Cheesy construction.  Building it like they do those "Value Place" hotels; pay by the hour, day, or week.

I would definitely disagree in saying it is "cheesy". I think it does a good job of blending with the original tribune lofts.

Thanks for the pic SXSW.

I just hope they have good sound proofing between floors and walls or else those will be the typical suburban style apartments where you can hear your neighbors. But thats just because the majority of developers are cheap  ;)  Overall though this is good developement, structure parking, built up to the street, and not out of context with the neighborhood, and it replaced a surface parking lot!

Better than a parking lot.  In 20 or so years "they" can build something new because that probably won't last that long.  Planned obsolescence, I hate to see it in such a setting.

Yes, mostly.  It is being built like a typical apartment complex, albeit a nicer one with an all brick facade.  Hopefully the sills and corner surround is built out of cast stone and not EIFS.  I still think the pool will be in an odd place, but it does get better western sun exposure.  It will be clearly visible from the Main St bridge.  And the clock is still cheesy, would be better if there was no element there at all like its older neighbor to the east..

Renderings
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2009/20090224_TribuneLoftsII.jpg)
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110115_tribune20115p2.jpg)

Cheesy...not the design; the construction technique and materials.

This may be the kiss of death to it, but I kind of like the clock.
The brick styling is very nice and it matches the neighborhood well.  Three stories is just too much for "2 by's"...at least for the exterior framework.

All wood, eh?  Gotta support all those lumber millionaires in Vancouver ;)

I hope they have soundproofing for not only neighbors but for the trains as well. 

A nice look at development plans.

http://tulsadowntown.org/general/1047/planned-investment (http://tulsadowntown.org/general/1047/planned-investment)

Any idea how big the Williams/City parking garage would be?

260 spots, don't know if that's net or not.

You guys are ripping it because it is stick framed?  Really?  You are just showing your ignorance on the subject is all...  Its a four story building...and do you know how much red steel costs? The economics of it are absurd for that size of a building.

Find something else to complain about, would you?

Think Admiral Twin.

  I have done some construction and was a bit concerned with its construction myself.  5 stories and wood?  That can be a looot of weight pressing down on those bottom floors.  But that was with a cursory glance.  Was in the area last night and got a better look as I drove by.  It doesn't look like they are using 2x4's  but are using at least 2x6's for the studs, and then have doubled them up in many places.  Then to keep them from buckling, midway in the walls between the studs they have placed horizontal wood bracing.  Then on top of that it appears they are attaching plywood to both the interior and exterior walls which will make the building extremely rigid and sound.  My guess would be that they would also put sheetrock on top of the interior plywood walls, which would both help them finish it out and add some extra sound proofing between units.  Didn't have time to examine the flooring but from what I noticed of the rest it, looks like this is not your typical wood construction but is more heavy duty and will be quite adequate for the 5 stories.  

I'm sure it's well engineered, otherwise they would not build it this way.  Common sense will tell you though, it's lifespan will not be as long as a similar building built of steel.

Kenosha, was there anything positive you wanted to add to the conversation?

I do.  I am about to build a 17,000 sq ft two story commercial office building and am choosing to use red iron and metal studs.  I want something that will last and not be squeaky when someone walks across the upper floor.  For a residential building of this size in an urban/downtown setting I expected the same.  ARG is building this just like they would build an apartment building at 101st & Memorial.  That's fine and I'm excited about the project, I just wish it was steel for the future tenants sake.  My guess is the economics didn't work out, whether it be their investors desire for more dividends or their lenders desire for a higher debt service coverage ratio.

I think the TDA provided about $4M for this building (granted it has to be paid back).

Bones of this building look exactly like every other residential apartment complex built in this part of the country.  Not sure why the hubbub.  It's not popsicle sticks.  Raise your hand if you're an engineer (I'm not)...

They did provide financing, but it still has to cash flow.

I'm not sure why there would be any concern that it's built with a wood frame.  The quality of construction is more important than the material.  If done properly and with proper materials, a wood structure can be solid and last forever.  My house was built in the 1920's with wood frames and is still solid as a rock.  Not a squeak or structural defiency to be found.  Cookie cutter suburban houses are not built of that quality, which is why they are cheap, cheesy, and overpriced.  My hope is that the Tribune addition is being built for quality.  The use of wood in and of itself tells me nothing.  In any event, it will be bricked on the outside for quality and aesthetics.  Even if built cheaper than it could be, one of the sparks for downtown residential is make it affordable for young people.  I just hope it attracts people to live downtown and sparks more residential developments.

My Wood frame cedar sided house is 102 years old this year...but it is only two stories.

I like the squeaks and groans of old wood buildings.  Gotta get by there again to look one more time.  Still don't like just wood for that size.  Metal outside frame would add some serious strength.  But yeah, everyone seems to be using 2X's and "engineered" beams.  Oh, well,


I have worked on several of those 1920's homes over the years.  Most recent one I pounded a nail in was in that Maple Ridge area, south of 15th, north of 21st, west of Peoria.  Nice old house that had been seriously abused over the years.  Saw the bare bones of that one.  Love those old houses, but don't kid yourself about how much they didn't cut corners then, too.  They did.

From foundations to framing - there were problems with "low bid" mentality in every age.  And as soon as the plaster is on, no one will see it again for many years.  One of my favorites is the method of making a wall stud out of three pieces, each about 3 feet long.  One for the top plate, one for the sill, and one to bridge the gap between the two, held together with nails!  And not even 16P nails.  Looked like about 10P.  And this method used not just once but about 8 or 10 times.  Built 1922, exposed 2010.  Guess it worked out ok, except for the unevenness.

And footings on old 1920's and 30's shotgun bungalows...wow!  Take a shovel, scrape the grass off, then lay down 4 or 5" of mortar.  Start laying block.  In other words - no footing at all.  (South of 11th, north of 15th, between Lewis and Yale.  Several examples.)

It appears they putting in concrete floors between each story for strength and sound proofing.

Concrete floors with wooden 2x6s? I'm no engineer but I don't think that's advisable. I figured the concrete section was solely for the parking garage. And since they're already using steel and concrete for the garage, why not use it for the building?

It'd be nice if someone with knowledge of their construction plans was on here!

Edit:

Went on a long walk tonight to photograph the building and area. Photos below show there are no concrete floors except for one section near the main entry, that they're using pre-fabricated supports and laminated 2x6s, the parking garage, a firewall, an example of the (lack of) quality of construction, and a finish model.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2623/5831053824_66c2b88518_o.jpg)
This is the one section that has a concrete floor. NW corner near main entrance. Also shows extensive lamination.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3435/5831053566_eff135bd4d.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2462/5831053930_c6e72aba61.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3639/5830503847_d70657ff8b.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3552/5831054158_433c94989b.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3137/5831054266_090992f17f.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5189/5831053326_d535e2a25c.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/5830503069_bc885a58de.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3372/5831054364_ac1cd523af.jpg)
Looks secure and tightly fitted, doesn't it?

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3643/5831054460_e551613dc4.jpg)
Finish model

Pretty sorry.  Low Bid.

And the pink foam layer is supposed to go under the sill to 'seal' it off.  Oh, well.  About what I expected, though.
Can't tell from the pictures, but would be interesting to see if the tie plates used on those trusses are the kind you buy at Lowe's or the real kind they should be.  From the close ups, Lowe's wouldn't surprise me.

At least they are using real plywood on the outside rather than OSB.


  

Darn it, the model has black windows but the rendering showed red windows. I liked the red ones better. Other than that it looks good!

I am not a fan of the sheet steel floor joist hangers.  I would rather see the joist sitting on a beam than hanging by about 6 nails.

Probably true...no point worrying until just the "right" wind comes along...

Red,
Those truss plates are excellent if they are the right ones.  I have used them to great effect before with great success.  Different application.

The truss plates that take a big machine to install are actually pretty good.  The ones you can hammer in at home, I have my doubts.  Those aren't what I was talking about.  The joist hangers are fine for installing a ceiling that won't get a load from above.  That is all.

Did a number on the Microtel or whatever it was under construction in Owasso when it was torn to pieces by a gust front.

I think many types of construction are vulnerable to bad weather before they are completed.  I remember a concrete block wall being blown over before the corners were done. I think it was at NAS Oceana (Va Beach, VA) when they were building the new Exchange (PX).  The red iron at TTC at Riverside Airport was blown down during its construction.

True, but it had no walls when the wind hit it.

Also, on the concrete, it is only between the first and second floors on Tribune 2.

I would like to see better construction but the fact at that construction is happening downtown is awesome and as long as it meets code, I say rock on.

In reality, the construction is not unlike the small apartment buildings built in the 1920's & 1930's scattered around Cherry St.  Ones I've been in had wood floors.  Either you deal with the as$ pain of moving in and out of a top floor apartment to miss the noise, or move in on a lower floor and hear your ceiling squeak when your neighbors move about.

So now, in addition to a posse of armchair urban planners, we have a posse of armchair structural engineers and architects?    ::)

Would anyone here be willing to pay 25 or 50% more in rent for a concrete or steel structure?  I didn't think so.  

Would people here complain about how it was keeping lower income people out of downtown if the rents for these units were 50% higher?  Most definitely, and probably the same people complaining about the perceived lack of quality right now.  In fact, they will probably still complain about the rent being charged, when they know nothing about the economics of putting a project like this together.  THere is a certain mix of rental rates, construction cost, and maintenance costs that they have to look at to figure out what will and won't work.  

Wood frame is allowed by the building code.  It's not the BEST, but it works and makes a project like this viable.  The project has to be designed by a licensed architect and a licensed structural engineer, who have both put their stamps on the line to say that this thing is going to stand up.  I don't think there is anything to be so upset about, it's not like some of the low quality single family stuff you see where no licenses are required and builders can basically turn in a napkin sketch to get a permit.  I'm just happy they're actually using brick and precast instead of fake stucco - and that they actually have a mock-up on site?  That's almost impressive to me.  Shows a commitment to a nice looking finished product.  

Developers aren't going to take on projects when they can't make money.   These types of endeavors are easy to preach about, but not so easy when it's your money on the line.  I think some of you aren't used to seeing construction downtown, so you didn't know what to expect.  ;D

I don't think anyone is that upset about the construction, just that it's not exactly what most of us expected to see and there's been some comments floated on that.

I would assume most of the upcoming smaller scale projects coming to downtown will be wood frame, so we need to adjust our expectations.  I wasn't so shocked about the wood as I was at the speed it was put up.  If i needed an apartment I wouldn't have a problem living there.

Well in any case, until Steve Kitchell's mom opens entertainment venues in Brady, I'm excited for the progress.

That's some really gray wood that makes up the frame and door jams on that project.

Hopefully the rent will remain out of their reach.

I guess you didn't see my post here:

The group building this project have had the $4 million dollars, from the TDA,  to create DT Housing for going on 6 years.

They were loaned the money twice.

Once for 4 years in which they did nothing. Time to repay the TDA, they reapplied through an RFP put out by the TDA, and according to the TDA, were the sole respondent and were given loan of the money a second time.

This time half way through the loan cycle they put up "wood".

Six years to come up with something similar to what Amanda and Metro Lofts were sprinkling the Cherry street area with. "Before they filed bankruptcy and relocated?"

My guess these units ,which were to have mirrored the Tribune Lofts, will be offered For Sale, rather than lease.

And yes this will maximize the profit end of things. That and the interest? or whatever they were doing with the 4 million for the first 4 years.

Quite a lucrative transaction on the public dime.

So lucrative they were the sole respondent.
This is doing exactly what that money was meant to do... spur development downtown...  and the taxpayers get the money back..   
Although we might all want to go knocking on Sager's door.. to get that $1mil back

Any particular reason you believe there are no engineers on this forum?


In my case the question is irrelevant since I have no desire to live in that type housing but I realize there are people who do.  Some would choose to afford steel or concrete rents if they knew what the construction was.  Others are not so lucky.
 

Wood is actually a fine structural material when properly used.  There were a lot of wood bridges that lasted many years, especially the covered ones.  There was a lot of wood used for heavy load bearing floors in buildings like the one McNellie's occupies.  Depending on the design margin, even a few joints can be less than perfect and still have the overall structural integrity maintained.   I still have reservations about supporting a floor with a few nails in shear. 

I also have concerns about fire safety in a commercial building made of wood.  It makes me think of the left over WWII barracks I lived in for a while at NAS Memphis in 1973.  There was a 24 hour fire watch...every day.

Even modest quality new construction will probably never be "affordable".  "Affordable" housing in older cities is generally the older housing considered less than desirable by those who can afford better.  In any case, the rents are based on a purchase cost less than new construction.


Hopefully the engineers and architects on this project are familiar with wood construction of this magnitude and are not just using unfamiliar minimum acceptable guidelines. 


Of course developers want to make money, just like I want my paycheck on a regular basis.  I am not about to say this building will be unsafe.  Older wood construction was undoubtedly over designed which allows us to have our treasured historic buildings.  Modern building techniques are not intended to last forever.  Economics plays a huge part in design decisions.  That's alright as long as the parties involved realize the design limitations.

I don't mean to interrupt this architecture/engineering discussion, but I thought you guys might be interested in this...

I was up on the roof of the tower again today.   Here's a bird's eye view of the Brady District and all of the great work currently going on:

(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3339/img00424201106150943.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/img00424201106150943.jpg/)

(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/3940/img00412201106150919.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/img00412201106150919.jpg/)

Jeff P, knock that off.

Alright everyone, back to building structures that will last what?  3 to 4 days in a 15 mph wind?

We're getting pretty good at taking a positive and neg-ing the hell out of it.

Brady development?  I pee on it.

over

Looks like Jeff P is in the best position to pee on it.

Depends on the wind direction and whether or not he catches an updraft.  :o

With today's strong south wind, I'd have a chance.

That's really all you can ask for.

In the first shot, you can see the Mathews Warehouse, then the dirt work where the new geothermal park is going to be and then an empty block and then the IDL.  What's going to go in that last empty block? 

KOTV

That's the new KOTV site

Youtube it.  No frontals please.

Those pictures are amazing. It'll be cool if we can see the Hardesty Arts Center, Brady Flats, Fairfield, and eventually the OK Pop museum from the same angle.

Thanks, all. That's what i thought it was.

Yes, four of those big empty lots are spoken for. Very cool. Now if the spots accross the street from Cains could see some action.

That'll never happen with the new Juvie facility going in  8)

Yes!

I never said the Tribune couldn't withstand wind.  I also never said it wasn't a great project.   I only commented that I wished it was red iron because of sound proofing.  I love the project.  I'm glad it's going in.  The more people living closer to those of us in North Tulsa the better!

What!!!??? Downtown is in north Tulsa?????
Well cancel my tickets to the BOK and the reservations at the restaurant. There's too much of a chance that I'll get mugged or shot. [shudder]

I've been thinking about the new Brafy Park, and how it could potentially effect development around it. Theoretically, it is in the perfect location. Smack dab in the middle of the district. Sadly I question how development will fill in around it. It will have the renovated Matthews Warehouse on the south side, which is great, but how can we get housing and storefronts around it? Griffin is going in to the north, but it will have a huge open lawn, minimizing the effect of the park. I don't see Spaghetti Warehouse giving up their parking lot in the near future, and on the west side is a large warehouse. I think that would be the best chance for someone to come in and develop, along with the NE NW corner. But how willing would the owner be to sell these, or would he/she jack up
the price because of park frontage? I'm just worried that for several years we won't have much development around what will be an amazing park.

Maybe if enough of us stand out in the parking lot with signs declaring how bad their food sucks...

The corner of Brady & Boston is already developed or under developed.  I'm curious to see what happens with Boston & Cameron, park on SE corner, KOTV's helipad on NE, but what will happen with the west side of that intersection?  Also at Cincinnati & Brady, Wallace has a great building on the SE corner, Matthews is on SW, Park is NW, what will happen to the surface lot on NE corner?

They recently laid multiple off so many people may be coming to that conclusion.

Fine by me. I can think of many better things to go there..

I was recently told it's going to be more than just the helipad.

I believe the plan is to build the helipad and hanger for the chopper, then the transmission tower, then the main headquarters/broadcasting facility.

I think the plan is to have everything done by 2013.

That's what I've heard too.

Jeff your correct on sequence of events.  However, the end date might be generous. 

Word is they designed the helicopter hanger too short and that caused delays.   Oops.  LOL.

It looks like there is now a fence around this lot too.  Hopefully construction will begin on this project within the coming week or so as well.   

Wow, hopefully. If so it will be a couple months ahead of schedule. I love how this building is modern but incorporates a lot of brick like the buildings around it.

That design is full of WIN, large 15 pane windows, clean lines, built up to the sidewalk (which are wide walks at least in the concept) brick corbels and cement caps. I bet these will be snapped up quickly.

Couldn't they just do a cut out on the door for the tail boom like they did for bomber production in the tee hangars out at the Douglas plant in WWII?  ;)

No, the door was too short for the copter to fit in.  So they could fit a small portion of the rotor in and nothing else.  Fail.

Fine by me. I can think of many better things to go there..

Facebook post:

(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/267625_1844630077410_1290383701_31625469_2651815_s.jpg)

How come the poster who puts up the models doesn't have to shrink his jpgs?

Are they leaving ledges on both side of that bridge for vendors?????

"will allow two way traffic north of First Street"

Boulder will also be getting a streetscape north of 1st to I-244 as part of the Brady Arts Streetscape project funded by the Kaiser Foundation.

http://swacdn.s3.amazonaws.com/1/d40c8c3e_bradyartsdistrictstreetscape.pdf (http://swacdn.s3.amazonaws.com/1/d40c8c3e_bradyartsdistrictstreetscape.pdf)

It would be great to see Boulder return to two way traffic south of 1st to 11th and the streetscape also extended south. 

This is great news for downtown and The Brady District in particular.

Right now, I'd settle for getting Main St. two-way from 6th to 10th.

Channel 6 hanger appears to be done.

Posted on FB by Hey Mambo:

(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/254718_258012227545654_100000106350168_1155585_5975818_n.jpg)

That "pad" or metal building looks like sh!t down there.....there needs to be a stronger code going forward for redevelopment if that's what's evolving.  :-[

And if I'm not mistaken, any pad used as a heliport has to be registered with the FAA.  I'll be watching for any registries.

Other than loss of his job. Did anything else come out of ol boy clipping their satellite truck and destroying the first skynews 6 ?

http://www.newson6.com/story/15173282/skynews6-lands-at-its-new-home-in-downtown-tulsa (http://www.newson6.com/story/15173282/skynews6-lands-at-its-new-home-in-downtown-tulsa)

I'm glad to hear the new building is still in the works.  I thought I'd read that it had been abandoned with Griffen consolidated in OKC.

I was under that impression as well but sometimes even Tulsanow posters are off the mark a bit.

I thought they had been using that helipad for a few weeks now, haven't they? I saw it flying directly over ONEOK Field a few times. Thought it was flying to and from the helipad there.

Also, the Mathews Warehouse is looking good. They've got most of it down to brick now. No more ugly tan colored coating atop the bricks. They've been burning the midnight oil sandblasting (or some kind of blasting).

I wasn't really sure what to do here so...future Brady development?

http://www.ktul.com/story/15368183/jail-on-lockdown?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.ktul.com/story/15368183/jail-on-lockdown?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)


Man Says He Will Blow Up The Jail

As in they might build a new or different jail?

Well if it'd have to be another jail at least make it deco?

Aaaabsolutely!  ;D

More info on the Griffin Communications site:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=52&articleid=20110910_52_E6_Griffi280427


Sounds like the new proposal is smaller than originally intended, by approx $14M.  There's a lot of hesitance projected in the article, but I wonder why it wouldn't go forward at this point?  I mean, you build a high-profile helipad and then . . . what, leave it in the middle of an empty city block? I'm betting the deal's a go. 

http://www.newson6.com/story/15605849/griffin-communications-to-buil (http://www.newson6.com/story/15605849/griffin-communications-to-buil)

(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/15605849_BG1.jpg)(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/15605849_BG2.jpg)(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/15605849_BG3.jpg)

Glad to see the KOTV project finally moving forward.

Looks fantastic.

It was nice of George Keiser to make such a nice front yard for them.

Glad to see this finally confirmed. Nice renderings, although I would have liked for it to have been pushed out to the street. I know I say it all the time, but the Brady District is just booming.

I noticed on a bike ride earlier that someone is renovating the old brick Ward building at Archer & Boulder (NE corner).  Anyone know what they are putting there?  They are replacing all of the windows.  That section of Brady really needs the Boulder Bridge - what is the timetable for its construction? 

They are also nearly finished with the brick on the north facade of the Tribune II.  Looks pretty good. 

Boulder Bridge is suppose to start construction in September of 2011 (oops) and complete summer of 2012 (uh-huh).

I'd just like to say...

This is my favorite part of Tulsa and I'd kill to be a resident here. I'd also love it if the entire area was renamed Greenwood.

I enjoy the area. Your suggestion won't resonate much here, but it has some merit. My neighborhood is called Southside, the one north of me is Morningside and the areas south of me have various names. However, the entire area is designated as Maple Ridge which gives it a more powerful image. Greenwood will always have a separate identification because of its being the ground zero of the 1921 race riots.

All the development in the Brady is great, I can't wait to see what this area is like even a year from now. Being down there recently I have noticed that parking is getting a lot more difficult (which does not bother me at all). I am curious what the street scaping plan will do for this area as well.

Also, just an idea... since Archer Street isn't really a major east west thoroughfare (it pretty much dead ends once you get to the east and west of the IDL) why not narrow the street and make it more pedestrian friendly? There is pretty much never that much traffic on it that you need more than one lane each way. You could pretty easily turn the lanes on the north and south into parallel parking and then also have enough room for a bike lane. This could be done pretty cheaply with just repainting the traffic lines like what they did to Cherry Street recently.

That ought to keep all us nasty suburbanites away.  Make sure there is no useful transit system on top of that and downtown will be reserved for the chosen ones.  (No religious connotation intended.)  While you're at it, tear out the BA Expressway, I-244, US 75 and the IDL.

We've been down this road before, pun intended.  I agree there is too much surface parking but until there is a reliable transit system to suburbia, there will need to be automobile parking if you want suburban dollars.

I heard from the staff at caz's that parallel parking was going to be put in along archer.  I just hope they don't eleminate the bike lanes that are there.  But they probobly will.

Well to start out, I actually live in Broken Arrow at the moment and grew up here. We are still 10-20 years away from needing transit to the suburbs... it's just not realistic unless there were major changes in the planning of the city. Streetcars could solve the parking issues pretty easily if we were to have a few lines that run through downtown. This would allow you to easily park in structure parking in the core of downtown and ride a streetcar to the Brady, Greenwood, and so on.

People are so over top about parking in downtown. I mean seriously... about 1-2 years ago when I would go out in the Brady I could literally park 100 feet from where I wanted to go if I was unlucky... now (GASP!!!) I have to maybe park a block or two away and walk 500-600 feet.

From growing up in suburbia and interacting with people here all the time, I can say that most people realize you walk a little bit while you're in a downtown setting. These crazy theories of keeping suburban people away, the Tulsa World commentators, and so on saying nothing will last in downtown because of parking issues or that there is even a parking problem are the minority not the majority.

When you write things like , it gives me a different impression than what you write above.

I would agree that a downtown circulator system would be needed to make a link to suburban transit viable.  If we are 10-20 years from needing transit to the suburbs, we need to be planning now and I believe we are. (Fast Forward Transit Planning)

Downtown does not really have a parking problem now, at least not in the evening.  I don't get downtown during the day.  I don't mind walking a few blocks.  Parking issues won't keep people away from things like Ball Games or events at the BOK Center if they really want to go.  Parking issues may keep people away from businesses that have an acceptable substitute farther out from downtown with easier parking.  I have previously written about my distaste for pay parking.

I guess I'm confused at how you took what I originally said. It was an observation which is true... parking in the Brady is becoming more difficult, but it isn't a bad thing and isn't an issue that really needs to be addressed yet. I would like to see Archer redone with parking along the street and a more friendly bike lane. This will allow the corridor to be more walkable.

The additional development will help us to get to a point where a street car line is actually reasonable. I have only been reading this forum recently so I'm not really familiar with your views on the parking situation but I responded to what seemed like that unreasonable view that some people like to portray "all south tulsan/ suburban" people have, and from what I have noticed gets played up a lot on this forum and in reality it's not true of what the majority of people actually think in Tulsa.

I can see you're point about it potentially keeping people from South Tulsa/ BA/ Owasso or wherever away if they were just making a trip to one special place say the chocolate store in the Brady. That is why the Ballpark and the BOk Center were so vital to the rebirth and success downtown is having. Making downtown a destination point for entertainment helps build the ground work and establishing a demographic for these places that makes the parking situation more acceptable. Without this downtown would never have made the turn around it has. Once the ground work is laid like it has it then in turn allows for the residential development we are seeing and in each cycle the need to draw in suburban people to support downtown is less.

The more development you see though the more attraction it will gain to people outside the core, however, and with better infrastructure you can solve parking problems that are created, and in time you can see Tulsa transformed to a city with a core more like Portland. You can see this happening with Cherry Street (they are installing parking meters) and I bet this won't stop anyone driving in from outside the core because it is a destination for people in the metro. On a side note to be against pay parking, while frustrating I'll admit, is just the norm for cities everywhere. Just be thankful you can park downtown for a couple dollars an hour compared to a lot of places that are a lot more expensive.

I also think the Fast Forward planning session is a good step forward in transit planning for Tulsa and hopefully we can get our zoning codes redone ASAP to get more walkable development made legal.

I don't know if that maybe helped clear it up? Sorry for the miss communication.

I thought you were going for the keep your **** suburban cars out of our city position.  Stop using our streets, you are wearing them out without paying for them .....   That attitude has been presented in previous threads.


Additional development could enable a street car line which would, in turn, enable more development.  Having larger but less parking locations and a circulator system would allow development of a lot of areas now occupied by surface parking. 

As for paying for parking, it's a big negative for me but I have a squeaky wallet.  I know that when I go to a shopping mall that parking is included in the price of the stuff I purchase there.  It is a cost of doing business for the merchants to attract customers and a cost of convenience for the customers.  I think if a parking garage were built, local businesses should be able to validate for parking.  Parking would be "free" for customers of local businesses.  If you are just browsing, then you would have to pay to park.  I know that the folks not using cars would want to know why they have to help pay for my parking.   Attracting business is the object.   It's a matter of getting nickeled and dimed to death.  I am about 15 mi from downtown.  There is no viable way to get downtown other than to drive my car.  The cost of gas alone is about $3.50 round trip.  If I want a beer, that will be about another $5.00 or more since I like craft beers. I can only have one or at the most two since I have to drive home.  Let's say one for now.  When free street parking is gone, it will cost another $5 for a couple hours parking. Maybe I'll play some shuffleboard, darts, or something.  Now my one beer costs about $13.50.  That had better be a pretty special beer.  I don't really care if a couple of dollars per hour is less expensive than NYC, Chicago.....  It puts things above my threshold of dollars per enjoyment.  It might even cause me to go to someplace like Baker Street on Memorial.  Others' views will probably vary.  I believe parking near the BOK Center can be $10 or more for some events.  I was downtown one evening when there was something going on there and wondered why anyone able to walk would pay whatever the rate was to be that close.

Development of every day businesses and more residential units will make downtown more viable for those who want it.  I think it should be available for those who want it.  There will some excitement to going downtown for many.  For some of us boring suburbanites, going downtown will be reserved for something not available in suburbia.  The concept of "it's more expensive because it's in the city and it's worth it because it's in the city" will be valid for some but not all.  I probably don't fit Artist's demographic but I don't go bar hopping (gotta drive home, also the reference to Baker Street Bar), am generally not interested in trinket shops etc. and don't get excited about going downtown because it's downtown. 
 
I guess that's more than enough for now.

There's still soooo much excess parking downtown. Whether there's free parking is another issue.

But even on a night the BOK is sold out, a show at Cain's, a well-attended baseball game, there's still tons of extra parking.

The newish garage at 1st/2nd/Cheyenne/Boulder is never ever full. The top couple floors just don't fill up.

That garage that's being expanded on First by the Jazz Depot, I'm not sure that place is even open on weekends. It's not used for off-hours parking. Open that on weekends and you've just added a ridiculous amount of parking to an area with no shortage of parking. That garage is three-four blocks from any downtown attraction.

OSU-Tulsa will never be full for Drillers fans (and that's free).

I really would like to see some numbers crunched on available parking vs. people downtown can hold. I imagine every single downtown venue/restaurant/bar would have to be packed to fire code (or beyond) for all the current parking to be full.

I think what he is saying is that the easy parking gone from the brady (or at least a big chunk of it).  The new hotel has done more than rip out the sidewalk, they ripped out the old angled parking at main and brady.  I assume that this is temporary since there is going to be retail space in this building.  For now though, alot of the spaces in the brady have been eaten up.  If you go down there you will see what he means.  It feels like a *sniff* big city all grown up!  I'm so proud.

You're point is well taken though.

And thats perfectly fine.  Downtown and urban environments can't be for everyone any more than suburban sprawl can be for everyone (some, most, however you want to put it).  The only thing Tulsa is trying to do is balance things out a teeentsy bit more so that instead of us having 99% plus suburbia, that your gonna have to take whether you like it or not, and about 1% urban.  We might instead have "gasp" 95% suburbia and 5% urban. Tulsa all by itself, not including the suburbs, is about 185 square miles.  If every inch of downtown and some surrounding areas like Cherry Street and the Pearl were to be urban, that would be about 2 square miles?  Yet it seems as if we have to beg and plead in order to even get that small percentage to become a true urban zone. If people weren't flocking to urban living all over this country, perhaps you might have a point.  But even here in Tulsa people seem to want more.  Tulsa can be proud of its nice suburbs and suburban living areas, but if it wants to pretend like its a CITY! it danged well ought to be proud of having at least a tiny little speck of good urban living/shopping/entertainment/dining areas as well for those who like that. 

I can agree with the above statements.  Obviously for me, free parking is an issue.  For me it's value for my dollar.  On the flip side,  I have no problem with spending $40 for airplane gas to go fly around the pattern at Riverside/Jones Airport for an hour of fun.  Everyone one has different things they are willing to pay for.

And I hope you get your 5% or even more.  I freely admit there are advantages to living near a city.  Who knows, if the urban areas in Tulsa develop into something I want to visit, I might even be willing to pay for parking.  That won't happen without enough people living downtown or close by to keep those businesses alive.  Downtown cannot survive on suburbanites alone.  The BOK Center and the ballpark cannot (presently) survive without suburban visitors.  I just hope that the attitude does not deveolp that downtown does not want suburban visitors.  Just to keep things clear, I consider most of the residential areas within the Tulsa City limits to be suburban in nature.  I am not just talking about Bixby, Jenks, Owasso, Broken Arrow, Sapulpa, Glenpool when I say suburbia.

FYI - I'm fairly certain the North Garage is typically opened up after hours on big event nights.

And I think I heard that the plan will be for it to be opened up regularly after hours once the expansion is done.

Free parking and a good downtown are mutually exclusive concepts, aren't they? I travel a lot. I always spend lots of time in a city's downtown. I can't think of one city with a lively downtown where you don't have to pay a few bucks for parking to go out for dinner/drinks.

Even the places that validate parking in other cities are usually the kind of boring suburban chain places that I'd avoid.

And I spend quite a bit of time in the Brady District. The biggest annoyance for me is 75% of sidewalks in the area are non-existent right now. There are a couple places where the sidewalks on both sides of the street are closed. I don't think that should be legal. When you see construction in a major city like New York, they always courdon off an area for pedestrians with scaffolding. Here, you either walk in the street or take a different route.

I found a free spot on the street in (near?) the Gas Light District of San Diego a few years ago.  I was just about to leave and go back to Mission Valley and have dinner in some suburban chain.  I was only in the area for a week so I only went downtown once.  I did go to the Mission Beach area twice for dinner.  Not urban downtown but I actually liked it more.  Oh, and parking was free.

Edit:
I almost forgot.  I went to Memphis, TN a few years ago with some friends to a convention.  We were staying in the hotel next to the convention center.  One night we went for ribs at one of the famous places you enter from an alley.  My friend with the car wanted to drive. I think those who did drive found some free street parking.  I talked my friends into taking the trolley. 

I think it would be a good idea for the Brady business owners to find a way to work with the Williams north garage to stay open 24/7 with some security.  Work something out so that parking is free or very cheap ($2-3 max).  The "center of the universe" bridge is a perfect gateway to the Brady.  Everything is within a few blocks walking distance from the garage.  If surface parking is going to vanish from the Brady, they need to be prepared to cater to cars.  It's the reality of Tulsa and it will not change.  Need to accept it and find a way to best cater to cars without destroying the dense downtown neighborhood they are trying to create.

  No, I am not buying it.  People will walk and or begin to take transit if you have a really great pedestrian friendly experience.

People will treck all the way to Eureka Springs Arkansas to walk along those streets, up and down steep hills, looking at pretty lame shops for the most part really,,, but what a neat street it is.  They will fly all the way to Florida, then pay good money to walk around Disneys Main Street and other "mythical" streets.  I had more fun walking along NYCs streets last time I was there, which again shows someone, aka me, spending a lot of effort and time, and some bucks to walk along some great streets.  

You can create average, or you can create superb.  And if we create superb, people will get here one way or the other.  I don't want Tulsa to be average. Average can kiss my arse.  NOT gonna have it if I can help it.   

Harumph Harumph Harumph

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jshaQbY[/youtube]

Eeeexactly lol.

Have a feeling we might not get a harumph from Arrow though lol

Harumph..

My largest complaint about pay parking is there is no other way to get downtown.  I have acknowledged that there is presently adequate free on street parking after 5 PM or whatever the magic time is.  Pay for parking makes me feel like my business is not wanted.  Give me a viable alternative like a park and ride, or better yet a trolley running up Memorial from Bixby (I can walk a half mile), and I might be a more frequent visitor to downtown.  I could have 2 or 3 beers, not be ripped but also not worry about blowing a .081 for Tulsa's or Bixby's finest.  I am not going to hold my breath waiting.

Brady TIF Article in TW:

(http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2011/A1bradymap1117.jpg)

The T World article raises an interesting question – how big a role has the TIF played?  I t hink the TIF's impact has been minimal up to now, but could really help going forward.  I find it hard to believe the Brady District would be so filled with construction projects right now but for the BOK Center and Oneok Field.  I'm not even sure Oneok Field would exist downtown but for the BOK Center.

I moved to Tulsa in 1997 and the Brady District was being touted as Tulsa's answer to OKC's Bricktown.  Unfortunately, at that time it pretty much consisted of the Cain's (pre a/c), the Brady, Caz's, Snooty Fox, Spaghetti Warehouse and Mexicali.  Not exactly a bustling entertainment district.  In 1997 Mayor Savage's first of two arena + projects was about to be defeated by voters and Tulsa was barely treading water with respect to downtown development.  71st & Memorial was being highlighted by the "in the know" crowd as Tulsa's real hub of commerce and entertainment.

I'm sure the Brady would have plugged along with some new development, but how many were really going to take a big chance in a part of town in which the citizens weren't willing to make a public investment?  It's worth pondering why Elliot Nelson did not open McNellies in the Brady District.  The TIF wasn't raising much money and, as such, wasn't having much impact (search lights!).  Vision 2025 changed all that, in my opinion.  Whether out of foresight or desperation, Tulsans finally decided to make a large public investment in downtown.  That investment changed everything and started the ball really rolling and it's still gaining speed.

The city started re striping Archer this weekend. Should add some more parallel parking on Archer. We are working with the BOK about the use of their east and west lots on Archer for use during events and the weekends. Should know more in a week or so.

Thanks

Scott Moore

Not sure how I feel about this. Archer was a designated bike route, wasn't it? The fact that it was four lanes made it more comfortable for cycling without feeling like you were impeding traffic. And even with four lanes, I still got my share of angry, honking, gesturing drivers who were highly offended by having to change lanes to pass me.

Shouldn't there be some kind of review process to change a bike route to a street that's not so bike friendly?

You could check the agenda for the next meetings of the COT, and if there is something you see that you don't like, contact the council and voice your opinion, find out if there will be a public discussion session before a ruling and bring it up.

Three walls are up at the KOTV site, tribune lofts expansion is all but complete, ground work is happening at the fairview and the Brady park and the pad at Brady Park is being poured for the restaurant.

I'm ready for the lofts by the ballpark to break ground.  Me likey condo units. 

Agreed.  When I saw what they were doing outside of the tribune(s) I was unthrilled.  Since they brought it down to one lane and installed parallel, the remaining two lanes are wide enough that a bike lane could be striped there.


I am becoming increasingly suspicious that those will not happen.  I've heard about them forever, but, as yet, no movement has happened on them.  I hope they do happen, but I have a standing rule that if a project doesnt get moved on within a year of its rumor starting, I start to get suspicious, then sceptical, and finally pessimistic.

In the past week or so, visible progress has begun inside the market/grocery store on Archer. Some appliances have been moved in. Prior to that, nothing significant (from peering in the window) had changed for months. In another thread, Blake said it'd be a pretty quick renovation, so hopefully that place opens soon.

It will be.  :)

Awesome.

That giant BOK lot on Archer near Boston now appears to be open. The gate's always up when I pass by late at night. The new street parking on Archer isn't getting much use on weeknights. I have a hard time imagining it being full most weekends, either.

So with those two additions, plus the coming opening of the new Williams Center garage on nights and weekends, we have way more than enough free parking down there.

Posted by Hey Mambo on FB

(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/405469_341772155836327_100000106350168_1474605_1908856206_n.jpg)

cool beams! :)

Follow up pic:

(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/401236_342366972443512_100000106350168_1476894_1664847174_n.jpg)

Very exciting!

Is this the Arts and Humanities or the Fairfield Inn? Can't get my bearings.

Per Scott it's the museum

Arts and Humanities Building...Got it. This one:
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110525_VIsualArts0525p2.jpg)

Speaking of the Fairfield Inn, has construction started on it as well?

Yep.  The hotel has beams going up already.  The metro is very close to being done.  Once the metro is done then the lofts project to the south of hey mambo can start.

In related news they are doing Reno work on the old lettercraft space next to th cigar bar.  I heard it might be a burgerand chicken spot.  No lease signed as yet.

That's too bad....we need more living food without anti biotics and hormones that have been processed to resemble meats.

I bet you are no fun at parties.

Auto correct sucks doesn't it? Did you mean "demo work?"

Cool news on the hotel, I'm very glad to hear that it is finally starting construction.

Reguarding the Brady Flats, is it confirmed that they will start shortly after the Metro is done, or is that just you speculating?

Yes autocorrect does suck.  I meant reno as in renovation.  But demo is the better description

And yes that was just speculation.  As ar as I've heard the project is on track.

Driving/walking around the Brady District right now is pretty amazing - the amount/scale of construction is unbelievable.

Recent Tulsa World article stated ONG Field is adding several water features (splash pads, etc) to open this spring, so add some more construction to the area.

Great to hear! Hopefully that project will in fact move forward once the Metro is done.

(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/408992_342593625754180_100000106350168_1477597_364820388_n.jpg)

I wish they would hurry up \snark

So what's planned that has yet to break ground?  And I mean "planned with a good chance of actually occurring," not "sketched out on the back of a napkin after 6  pints at McNellie's." 

What else do I have to look forward to?

Firm Projects
1. GreenArch  Southwest corner of Archer and Greenwood.
2. Multi-tenant residence South of Hey-Mambo

Maybe Projects
1. Greenwood hotel and multi-use Southeast corner of Archer and Greenwood
2. OK POP Museum at Archer

Is there any more info on the Greenarch Project? Last I heard it was supposed to start last spring but as far as I know it still has not broken ground. Is it still on track?

Anyone heard if a local state legislator is going to take the lead and push the OK Pop Museum this session?  With everything happening in the Brady and the recent announcement on Woody Gutherie, this could really be the turning point for creating a fatanstic destination point in Tulsa.  With the OKC Native American Museum still needing significant state funding, Tulsa area legislators could really have some leverage to make a deal to include bond money for the OK Pop.  Unfortunately, Tulsa area legisltators have historically shown a knack for not making good deals with OKC area legislators.

Tulsa needs to get the money up front.

What I've heard around from some high ups is that they are moving ahead with planning for the OK Pops even if the money doesn't come from the legislator. I've seen a survey crew taking picture of the area around me and the BOK lot it is planned for.

The TV tower for Channel 6 has started going up today has well!

Great news on the Pop Museum, and I noticed the tower going up on the way to Stillwater today.

What's with the Stillwater trip?  I thought you were mercilessly trapped in Bixby.   ;D

Sorry, but I don't get the pop museum theme thing. Is there government money involved?

The distinguishing fact about Woody, besides being an icon, is the archives are so fat.


Pop music? http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/12-extremely-disappointing-facts-about-popular-mus

Pop goes the weasels....

Well, not always, but most of the time anyways! ;D No, Stillwater is like a second home to me. I have a lot of family there and I'm actually in Stillwater quite often.

It is very nice to see that Tulsa is now actively pursuing things like the "Guthrie Museum".

Not that long ago, the City, along with the Tulsa Metro Chamber, were prepared to stand by and watch as the "Beryl Ford Collection" made it's way to OKC.

If not for the Rotary Club it would now be calling OKC it's home.

Is there something similar to the "Beryl Ford Collection" from OKC that we could try to grab?  Would we really want it if we got it?

While any forward movement on the OK Pop Museum is great, it will be very frustrating if we cannot get any state support for this museum and local philanthropists must step in the breach to completely fund.

Again, there's a major "breach" in thinking here....The Woody archives are Smithsonian material....the pop museum more like Nascar ;D

I don't think so since even Woody Guthrie could have been included in the OK Pop Museum.  The original plan, and I hope thats the one they persue, was to have all Oklahomans and their works that had an influence on our nation and the worlds culture represented in the museum.  And anything in and about Oklahoma itself that had an influence.

 From authors of books and comics, TV and Movie Stars, Radio personalities, Athletes, Architects, Musicians, Famous Criminals, Singers, Composers, Astronats, news men, news makers, politicians, major corporations, etc. etc.  For such a small population and a young state we have had a big influence on our nation and its culture. The Oklahoma Pop museum would be a place to showcase that talent and influence, the influence that a lot of people, including those in Oklahoma often don't realize exists.  It would be a way of making Oklahomans proud of their heritage and hopefully inspire young Oklahomans to reach for the stars.   

SE Hinton and the Outsidets, the Grapes of Wrath, Will Rogers, Woodie Guthrie, Paul Harvey, Chester Gould (creator of Dick Tracey) Archie Godwin (Archie Comics) The quotes of Waite Philips, Pretty Boy Floyd, Belle Star, J Paul Getty, Geronimo, Tom Mix, Bill Moyers, Wiley Post, Bob Wills, Conway Twitty, Roy Clark ( and more musicians than you can shake a stick at) Gene Autry, "Hopalong Cassidy", Joan Crawford, John Hope Franklin,,,, the list of famous people, places and things that have impacted the nation and impacted its culture is long.   

I agree with the artist here.

Woody is ultra-cool, but you don't have to be snobby about it.

Pop music isn't for you, teatownclown. I ain't their demographic either. But Pop music is incredibly popular. My nine year old daughter and my 95 year old grandmother both like Katie Perry. A museum for Pop music will be great for Tulsa and will be a nice mix for the soon to be coolest neighborhood in Tulsa.   

It does nothing for an arts district having a pop museum or a Bob Wills Museum....this area is not the tourist trap area of downtown....the Blue Dome/Areama area is for those pedestrians.

Can we please refrain from 1) what other cities do 2) beauty contests 3) what is hip for the moment.

Sorry Mister America, but Woody was never about ultra-cool and do you really think it's snobbish to go for quality rather than quantity?

Didn't see my link?

What's the matter TTAC? Aunt Flo come early this month?

The clown is right about the archives being smithsonian quality.  He us incorrect in thinking that they are going to he in the pop museum.  They will be in the Mathews warehouse across the street.  The are smithsonian quality so ... What are you complaining about?  There will be something truly legit and interesting (in a non-touristy kind of way) I don't think that us something to grumble about.

TTC (also the name of a killer French rap group) raises an interesting question: should we aim for just bringing in tourist dollars or for promoting an actual arts district?  Personally, I think the elements that make the Brady an arts district are already in place (Tulsa violin, the glass blowing studio, Boston artists coalition, even Hanson). 

To return this thread to a sort of Brady centered nature, I have my own question,  the Bradyhas had alot of development going on but (seems to) be running out of places to develop.  What does everyone think is next for this part of downtown?

 I would like to see both an authentic arts district and "tourist trap" and that includes locals doing the tourism thing in their own town.  There will be a lot of arts related things in the Brady District and nearby that will in aggregate make a nice tourist destination even without the OK Pop.  And lets remember we get a lot of tourists through Tulsa as it is, and I am seeing more of that on the few days I have been at the tiny little Tulsa Art Deco Museum we are working on.  There are a lot of people who come through Tulsa specifically to see the Art Deco and Route 66, and we arent making the money or promoting it like we should be imo.  Just this last Wednesday when I was there was chatting with some people from Toronto and Singapor who had a Downtown Tulsa map and were asking about the Art Deco. I really enjoyed chatting with them and explaining the history of Tulsa and explaining what Deco is.  The more things we have, including in the Brady, for these people to see and for us to promote, the more likely they will stay a little longer, and the more likely more people will come.

The TU Gilcrease collection in the Brady will be another nice attraction along with the Philbrook expansion. The Arts and Humanities facility will have some nice synergies in the area.  There is still work going on to create a large GeoScience center, Childrens Museum, Cains Museum and Fiddler Hall of Fame, the Jazz Depot is right across the way, and there are more possible attractions being worked on.  I am with a group of these people on a Museum Coalition project in which we hope to band together these different efforts and "coming attractions" in the downtown area in order to maximize and coordinate events, exhibitions, publicity and fundraising efforts to indeed create a full on regional destination.  I know we are just small fry and just starting out, but I of course have big dreams for the Tulsa Art Deco Museum and hope to really capitalize on Tulsas Art Deco heritage.  There are millions of people all over the world that love deco and the deco era that we should and could be pulling into Tulsa.  As long as I am still breathing, I intend to do just that.

I don't think that the OK Pop Museum would seem like a cheesy tourist attraction. I actually think it would further enhance the area and solidify its identity as an arts district. Where would be the more logical place to put a Popular Culture museum than in the middle of our arts district?

Agreeing with Will, if we are able to build more museums downtown, as well as develop a awesome urban scene, we could become a regional attraction. We could have people coming in from OKC, NW Arkansas, Joplin, Wichita, etc. to see our downtown. If we made it special enought, we could attract people from Dallas, Little Rock, and Kansas City. Possibly even further. I think you can make a really cool area, and still attract tourists. If museums and such are added tastefully, and create synergy with each other, I think they have the potential to actually increase the quality of life for locals.

As far as what I see as the future of Brady.....well I expect more housing, and hopefully more things that make it stand out as being an arts district. So far I think it has definitely earned that identity.

I'm inclined to agree with both the artist and xyz ( science museum makes me very excited!). What I mean is it seems we are saturated on current projects.  If the Brady is going to really expand beyond what it is there will have to be some serous new projects to eat up open space (nw corner of main and cameron, mexicali and spag house parking lots, disused comercial space close to the cans). These are the projects I read the newspaper for and heck it's what i joined TNF for (I mean, who gives a smile that Gaspar doesn't like Obama, really?). That's what I mean when I ask about the future of this favorite district or mine.

I think The Penguin owned 1/2 the Mathews Warehouse which has turned into the anchor for the Brady District thanks to the Zarrow, Hardesty, Kaiser Foundations, the Arts and Humanities Council and other supporters. I'm wondering with TU and OSU help, what did all do to get The Penguin to cooperate?

Whatever, with the Arts and Humanities council and the Living Arts Center the Brady is moving in the direction of quality over quantity. Those two can provide constant changing art product. I think the jury is still out on it ever becoming a big residential community. With landlords like the Sharks, one must question how fast and secure the Brady is from cooperative development. There's a Tip Sword that needs those properties accumulated and redeveloped. Perhaps, governments role should be to facilitate getting rid of the industrial users by forming an assessment district and zoning enhancement but the ballpark assessment will no doubt go down the tubes and this will cause ripple effects. Governments role is not to provide tax payer funds for museums and tourista trappings.

There is plenty of land down in the Brady, but like I said redevelopment needs more facilitation through the relocation of industrial users out into our newer industrial sites or even up on the hill where Evans (now TDA) holds title. The Bordens trucks are a nightmare and wouldn't it be nice to see their building behind the Old Lady transformed into mixed uses or even a Marshall's micro brewery? The ballpark has served as a nice bridge between the Brady and Blue Dome. When Boulder Bridge is completed, there will be a nice continuation towards the Arena albeit running thin on product after 3 years ;) . With the Mayo up for sale, it will be interesting to watch how all the old city hall area gets redirected. Education centers the Greenwood area but retailers will still be slow in coming due to the lack of demographics.

I would like to see Mayfest moved ahead into the Brady but it will take 3 more years to achieve that because of all the construction. But it's still all taking shape down on the old Shakedown Street :). An interesting mesh of old and new, disturbing history and an optimistic future, fun and education, but it will take some more cooperative effort, big bucks, government aid (not government welfare), and synergy to pull it all off....It's not ever going to be bigger than local. Better keep it under control.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MccLsc5YzrI[/youtube]
"You think you've seen this town clear through.
Well, well, well, you can never tell.
Nothin' here that could int'rest you. Well, well, well, you can never tell.
It's not because you missed out on the thing that we had to start." (Garcia/Hunter)

Another update from Hey Mambo:

(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/404182_346456062034603_100000106350168_1495479_1929348280_n.jpg)

More pics posted by Hey Mambo:

(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/379814_347841191896090_100000106350168_1499886_1872559811_n.jpg)(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/381749_347841265229416_100000106350168_1499887_1412641535_n.jpg)

and the channel 6 tower

(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/397596_347843391895870_100000106350168_1499893_710394177_n.jpg)

I dont think they are ever going to finish that Arts and Humanities Building.  ;)

KOTV Channel 6 site has steel being delivered today! More steel at the AH-ha site, demo on the Boulder bridge and as always work on the park and Matthews going strong! Oh and the hotel as well. So much going on down here!

There's a construction webcam on the AHHA website (http://ahhatulsa.com/ (http://ahhatulsa.com/))

Here's the latest image:
(http://68.71.138.16/CameraImages/largeimgfd32a380-2e49-4813-9b72-a494c70ac2e0.jpg)

Nice.  Thanks

(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/390579_350552128291663_100000106350168_1508007_77611650_n.jpg)

Channel 6 steel going up from Hey Mambo FB.

I hope you don't mind me posting your pics on here HM.

not at all ;)

I have an idea for the Brady....it's a Klan Museum. I'm not klanin' around either. It would be much better than a "pop" museum. It would be scary! It would be reflective of the past in the Brady!

Anybody got some relatives who still have their costumes in storage? Any good memorabilia?

Teaching tolerance.

And I'm the one who gets censored??
You must have a "in" with the powers that be....

Don't take it too hard.  This is his 3rd or 4th incarnation as a TN contributor. 

We should congratulate him on his ability to control himself as much as he has this go-round.

+1 ;)

I'm not really worried about it.  Just thought I would put in a marker for the latest time I had a post removed.  Can't seem to figure out the rhyme or reason, but will keep evaluating.

There's a small sign on the door on the northeast corner of the Mathews Warehouse "Art Gallery and Wine Bar."

Has the bar aspect been mentioned? That'll get a lot more people in there on a consistent basis than just art, sans booze.

Channel 6 update from HeyMambo

(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/391924_351998708147005_100000106350168_1511962_878250778_n.jpg)

We headed east around the north side of the Brady District on 244 at lunch time.  It's really cool to see all the renovations which are done and in progress. 

And Channel 6 tooting a horn...most likely theirs:

(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/400038_10150685706782837_305051092836_12124401_2017865997_n.jpg)

I really hope the POP Museum can be built. I looked at the proposed space on Saturday and I think it makes sense sandwiched between the Jazz Depot and the AAHM at the Center of the Universe. 

Looking east down Archer at Main...you can see the Fairfield Inn construction on the left and the AHHA in the background with the newly finished Metro apartments to the right.  Soon there will be the Brady Flats project rising in between Fairfield and AHHA.
(http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o600/plexis22/archer.jpg)

Remind me where the POP museum wants to be?

On the lot south of Archer between Boston and Cincinnati (across from AHHA).

I really encourage anyone interested in downtown Tulsa to drive around, or better yet, walk around the Brady District.  The pictures being posted are great, but there is no substitute for seeing it in person.  The amount of construction activity is incredible and it is hard not to be excited about the future of this area.

When All Souls was scouting locations downtown for a new Church they initially wanted to be in the Brady/Greenwood area. But when they approached the powers that be in the area they were told that every inch of that part of downtown already has plans for it.

Next to the MOM museum?

Anything going into the old building at Boulder and Cameron?  Across from the Hunt Club...I believe it was a car dealership.

No, but every time I go by there I think what a great redevelopment that would make. But into what? Reminds me of the clothing district in NYC.
The space below is the storage for Tulsa Opera and other costumes.

Wow, I hope the Bordens truck lot south of the Brady is part of some plan.

I don't know what all the project are. Just that All Souls was told that there was no space for the church in the Brady or Greenwood. That everything is spoken for already. I wish I had more specifics.

It will take a lot of money to move Tipsword and Borden. But moving them out is a must. You might have to find a user for those areas first...
Tulsa Parking Authority?

It doesn't need to happen tomorrow...there are still plenty of buildings to fix up on Main (by Cains and Hunt Club) and by the ball park and plenty of empty spaces to build in. But I agree that they need to move out to the Cherokee industrial park.

I am leasing the southeast corner of Boulder and Cameron. I moved some warehousing operations into the north third of the building about a year ago. Look for my M.e.t. sign.

Maybe I will have a party there this spring and invite everybody.

Maybe I've got the wrong intersection...I meant a block over from your building.

Down the street from Cain's

edited: but yes, I'd show

A business owner in Brady told me that "Brady is pretty much finished."  I don't think they consider anything west of Boulder, other than the Brady Theater, to really be a part of the Brady District.

Also, the amount of land the church desires just isn't available in that area unless you were to buy property from multiple owners and knock buildings down.

That tends to be the way we role.

I doubt they had a problem knocking buildings down.  It was probably a problem to put together a contiguous plot of land.  Because you know church buildings have to be sprawling...

And aren't they getting the land at 6th & Frankfort donated by a church member?

You meant Main and Cameron: Southeast Corner

Ah, thanks.  That one.

I thought the Hanson boys bought that building.

Secret brewery?

Isn't that kind of going against the grain in terms of the expressed desires here to keep a wide variety of activities in the area?  Perhaps some Borden people might want to live in the area?  But I bet that couldn't afford it...

Fine with me if Bordens stays...they just need to move their trucks somewhere else so that Parking lot can be developed.

Yeah...we need more parking lots downtown!

No way.....maybe a slow down but not finished by a long shot.

Are there even any low whispers or rumors of anyone trying to buy the Borden's facility?  The plant itself fronts Denver and looks at the jail - not exactly the easiest location to redevelop (and I'm not sure you could repurpose a milk plant very efficiently).  All those lots with parked trucks and trailers near the Brady Theater, however, could offer some great development opportunities for someone with a lot of money or, oh I don't know, maybe a family foundation. ;)

Considering the age of the dairy, it likely is loaded with asbestos. Usually slows down a deal.

Marshall's! fits across from the jail!

Glad I gave up that stuff years ago....asbestos is a burden but not an end all...

That building was a old Ford dealership, I can tell you nothing will happen to that building that has to do with any kind of music,liquor sales or alternative life styles. I am sure it will stay empty until the own dies! That's what I heard.

Same story I heard.  Fortunately I believe the owner is well along in years.

You forgot dancing, smiling and not being an old dooshe.

Who knows about Wally, its his kids who will inherit the business and property. Hope to see businesses on the street level and lofts on the top level! Those would be some of the best lofts in the district with those windows!

i agree, i've always thought that building would make really great lofts. besides the tribune, they'd be the only real lofts in the brady.

HeyMambo FB update titled "Brady Square steel being unloaded".

(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/384932_355575207789355_100000106350168_1524089_423533596_n.jpg)

HeyMambo FB of the AHHA:

(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/386370_355575241122685_100000106350168_1524090_100436220_n.jpg)

And the stage construction is moving right along...

(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/403929_355601897786686_100000106350168_1524276_1729056773_n.jpg)

They sure aren't wasting any time with that steel. Glad to see things coming along.

Pic looking north from the 33rd floor of the BOk Tower.

I labeled what I could in terms of new construction or remodeling.
Hopefully they are all correct.

(http://www.tulsagoldenhurricane.com/images/Brady.JPG)

Careful.  Photos like that ruin the "downtown is dead" paradigm.  Obviously Vision 2025, the new ball park, BOK center, and individual entrepreneurship has been an utter FAILboat in downtown.

Thanks for posting that.

Nice pic. 

Obviously, though, there's still a lot of space to be filled. 

Might add that the parking lot on the bottom right of that photo is the land that I think BOK is offering to donate for the pop culture museum. 

Also, the parking garage on the far bottom left is being expanded to the south (outside of the photo).  I am hoping that it stays open late so that it can serve as a parking hub for the entire district since much of the Brady District parking is being swallowed up with construction.  Right now, the garage closes at 9:00 p.m.  It is a nice easy walk across the bridge to the Brady District.  Might even consider running a trolly or other type of transportation service from the lot around the district for the lazier of our citizens for whom a 3 block walk is unimaginable.

TTAC, pick up the white courtesy phone!

Hoss Cutright,

I have been a huge advocate for the Brady/Greenwood neighborhood.

Do you hold it against me that Downtown needs a miracle?

TTC

Yes, it's all your fault.
 
 ;D

Not shown:
The parking garage in the bottom left has been expanded by 60% or so as well.
The bridge construction. They had two big holes dug on the south side of the tracks today for what I assume will be the south pillars.

Losing your edge?

KOTV just posted by HeyMambo.

(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/395773_358347100845499_100000106350168_1530691_1437711873_n.jpg)

"Steel arriving at the hotel site."

(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/403143_358347140845495_100000106350168_1530692_1101312208_n.jpg)

Great news for the Chinese steel industry!

Negative Nelly

Chances the Brady District is renamed?

Over the edge.....

TTC, Downtown does not need a miracle.  It needs conscientious planning, effort, and time.  Miracles need not apply.

I think I can see my car.

It has been exciting going to work ever day for the past 6 years and seeing how downtown has changed. Now, if I can just find some affordable housing in downtown...

I really wish that the corridor that heads uo to the ony pistol and cains were more developed.  On the cains side of the street is empty lots and corrigated prefab steel buildings.  On the other side is a giant open field.  When I asked earlier on this thread what was next, that's the space I really had in mind.  Some of those manufacturing (or whatever they really are) such as the complex south of cains or the one on the southwest corner of boston and cameron are going to have to move out eventually.  If I were the king of the world (rich in ponies, of course) I wouldsnatch up that space and build 6-8 story pre-1945 style apartment building.  With the park across the street the land value has to be going up.  It just seems like eventually they will get priced out of their own hood.  Lets hope so.

A project was planned for the area south of Cain's but the developers were unable to get it done.  Tax credit issues and the guarantors backed out from what I heard, but don't take that as fact.  The project was a nice design and would have brought world famous BBQ to downtown versus going to BA.

As the area along Archer gets more built-up I think the next wave of development will be along Main, including the lot between Archer and Brady and the properties between Cain's and Cameron.  Also areas around the new park. 

Do you mean the Mexicali parking lot and the adjacent lot to the south?

Also, I really need to proofread.  And not post when I'm dead tired.

Will Wilkens had mentioned something was planned for the cool building across the street from the CAINS. I'd like to see another hotel go into that empty lot west of sound pony.

Looking at the AHHA construction cam reminded me to ask the following question: When are we going to bury the electrical and phone lines in the Brady District? With all the streetscaping plans, I hope that's something they've included. Those things are an eyesore, just as they are all over town, and it was a HUGE missed opportunity when the lines in Brookside weren't buried during their streetscaping project.

I wish that was in the plans but I'd bet my donuts it's not.

Definitely true.  I went for a walk through there and all the construction is very exciting.

More pics posted by Hey Mambo

AHHA
(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/403167_367001586646717_100000106350168_1555783_1499245604_n.jpg)

Stage
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/429203_367001663313376_100000106350168_1555784_1289022000_n.jpg)

KOTV
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419355_367001709980038_100000106350168_1555785_851892294_n.jpg)

The picture above captioned "stage" is part of the new park north of the new museum.  I can see it from my office and was going to ask what type of structure it was.  If it is a "stage," are there any plan renderings?  It's a pretty large frame for a stage.  It spans the entire block.  Also, what is the slab on the north end of the park going to be?  It also spans nearly the entire block.  Seems large to just be bathrooms.  This may have been discussed previously so I apologize if this is a rehash.  It seems these plans are always evolving a bit.

According to the banner that is hanging on the fence this steel structure is a "trellis"

The slab is a cafe / nuclear bunker / vault.  OK, not a bunker or vault.. just getting built like one.   If you happen to be in the Brady district when a twister's headed this way... head for the cafe restrooms or whatever it is (which will probably have a big padlock on them..  psych!)

Urban Tulsa has an article on parking in the Brady.  I'm glad to hear business is not slowing down.

http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=46623 (http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=46623)

Where exactly are these parking problems? The new spots they created on Archer are never anywhere close to full midday when I go by. Nor are they ever close to full at night.

  What is it with this town and "parking problems"?  ??? Just absurd really. 

  Most of us couldn't manage in NYC, Paris (France), London (England), Hong Kong...

  That's the way we are.

Walmart mentality.  If we can't see the front door from where we can park, there's no parking.

With all due respect, having lived in NYC and here, I would still argue that it is virtually impossible to live the lifestyle I desire without a vehicle in Tulsa. NYC has all necessities/niceties within walking distance. Not so much here.

I'm not disagreeing that people around here a a bit deranged when it comes to parking, I'm just saying you're not comparing apples to apples.

Bet if I offered to pay for a 2 week stay in Paris or London or NYC, by far most people would jump at the chance and manage quite happily.

 And I bet if I gave them a 2 hour class on "pedestrian friendly/ quality urban design and living" showing them examples, etc.  most would come away from it with an entirely different attitude on parking.  

It's not just the general citizenry's problem. Developers have the same derangement. They want x amount of parking spaces or its a no go. This should be the focus of the re-education. Plus there are less of them. To get downtown going, it is going to take some developers to drag everyone else along. Fortunately for Tulsa, they have several that are doing some great things.

My problem is that people want to shift our urban areas fit a suburban lifestyle/mindset, instead of allowing them to grow into urban ones, and thus end up destroying any chance at having that quality urban space.   We end up with spaces that are neither urban nor suburban but a grotesque, expensive, wasteful mockery of both, which neither the urbanist finds truly attractive, nor the suburbanite.  We focus more on trying to make the suburbanite happy, while ignoring the urbanites who then either leave the city for better urban areas, or who when taking a look at our city, don't choose to even move here to begin with.  200 square miles of suburban lifestlye for those that want it...and we can't manage to make even a teentsy .5% of that be urban for those people who want that?    

Its illegal in 99% of the city to create urban living, to create pedestrian friendly/transit friendly development (minimum parking requirements, mixed-use not allowed, etc.).  If they can do that, why don't we make it illegal in that other 1% to create suburban style development?  

As one example... Think about it, we have made it illegal in our city to have good, affordable mass transit.  It's not possible because of our zoning laws.

Agreed, Uptown Dallas is an example of this "New Urbanism" that isn't urban at all. I hope Tulsa will just look at what really works.

I still think Fort Worth's Near South Side (Magnolia Ave.) is an area I think we should be studying. The form based codes/overlays they are using are helping create a truly liveable neighborhood. Mixed use neighborhoods are the goal.

The thing everyone needs to realize is that not everyone can afford a $200/s.f. condo downtown. Plus downtown isn't for everyone. This is why I think neighborhoods like the Swan Lake area are so incredibly vibrant and popular. They offer detached & attached housing in a wide spectrum of prices and within walking distance to shopping/dining/parks/religious/medical/school. That is what a neighborhood is. Downtown Tulsa, while they are trying, is no where near a neighborhood.

While you say why can't a small portion of Tulsa be urban, I say it already is. It's just not downtown.

I read the Urban Tulsa article and was wondering which part of town the writer lived in.   Almost everyone they quoted said there was no real parking problem.   I have never had trouble parking,  I might have to walk a block but that is part of the enjoyment of going to the Brady.   

As to surviving in a city atmosphere, when I lived in San Francisco I did not have a car and managed quite well.  I also spent some time in New Orleans without a car and never felt hampered.   

After spending several days in San Francisco I can see how it's easy to survive without a car. I think many here are of the notion that San Francisco is huge. It:s really not, except for having 750k living in a 20 sq mile box. Their transit system (BART)  is tailor made for the Bay Area.

Sent from my Atrix4G with fat fingers

People used to park in a lot on Main between Brady and Archer and now that lot has a slab in it. This is cornfusing to folk who don't realize that the little stripes in the street represent a parking space.

I used to run the kitchen at lola's.  I lived on north main and walked or rode my bike.  It took me alot of work and good planning to get in a position where I could live without a car.  That said, if you concider the amount of housing that is within a 10-15 min bike ride of the front door of Caz's there really shouldn't be a parking problem; just an issue of promotion a walking/biking culture (that is certainly on the wax).  My point is that, for those of us who want to live this way, we have found ways to do it and will continue to do so.  Dense housing/commercial is important, but until such time as Tulsa will invest in mass transit, the thing that can save us from 'uptown Dallas'  (which is a shopping mall in disguise) is the bicycle.  

/Preachingsessionconcluded

For a short period, I agree.  Take your average entrenched suburbanite and tell them they are going to live the rest of their live in a big city and there will be less jumpers.  Kind of like Green Acres in reverse.


Some, I agree.  Most, I disagree.  You are starting with the perspective of loving the urban lifestyle.   I personally have no problem walking a few blocks.  I also park at the uncrowded areas of parking lots.  I can't stand the people blocking traffic just waiting for a spot 10 feet closer to the door.  I usually walk right past them as they wait.

Aside from needing to ferry large items, work day transportation (i.e. if a client needs me to come to their office in a hurry or out of town), and wanting a roof over my head while commuting in really crappy weather, I could easily survive in Tulsa with a bicycle.  If I were a desk jockey and never needed to leave between 8 & 5, I'd commute 80% of the time.  Granted, I'm willing to ride or walk a lot further than most people as my bike commute works out to about 10-11 miles each way, or roughly an hour of good cardio exercise.  Actually, once FMC finally gets moved up here, I may start leaving my car at work so I can commute more often via the bike.

I think you made some keen insights there. Downtown isn't a neighborhood and may never be. Its the nearby areas that are fulfilling an urban urge right now. It gives you a different perspective to realize that not all young people or urban(auts) really want to live in the nucleous of the downtown, they may just like living nearby.

CBD's are almost never residential areas.  But the Brady, the Pearl, Uptown, Brady heights, (maybe) blue dome should all be residential areas that are "urban' and to some exant already are.  If we want parking lots to disappear they have to be made less valuable as parking and more valuable as potential development options.  To invoke the measure I used above, a ten min bike ride (or $4 cab ride, or 20-25 min walk) from one's front door to one's place of work would be a dream.  Outlying residential areas like the ones listed above feed into CBD's.  They support each other.  What we can do is promote non-car culture.  We already have a great skeleton for a cycling commuter system (riverside and adjacent trails), one of the best bicycle races in the country happens here (if you haven't been to crybaby hill, you haven't really seen Tulsa), we have drivers who are actually not that unaccomodating to cyclists.

I've often thought it would be a great opportunity to challenge Mayor Bartlett to Ride the bus/Cycle for one week to give him a sense of what transit whould be like in Tulsa.

That's not a bad idea.  I think there's a bus route by his home at 31st and Lewis..

I've thought it would make a good documentary film.

"Bus rides and burning phones"?

I've seen him on camera before, it's cring-worthy. Please see the link below from thislandpress

http://thislandpress.com/10/27/2011/dewey-at-the-dilly-deli/ (http://thislandpress.com/10/27/2011/dewey-at-the-dilly-deli/)

Winning!

This is one of downtown Tulsa's great advantages.  It is adjacent/proximate to upper end housing (Maple Ridge), mid range housing (Swan Lake/Cherry St.), up and coming housing (Owen Park and Brady Heights) and entry price level with potential that needs some pioneers (New Block and The Pearl).  Living in any of those areas makes downtown a natural extension of your neighborhood.  Unfortuanately, most in these neighborhoods probably drive to work/eat/drink/recreate downtown becuase of limited public transportation options.  While high speed rail and trains from BA to downtown all sound cool, simply connecting some/all of these close in areas to downtown, TU, Cherry St. and Brookside is way more useful, feasible and cost effective.  Make the suburbanites jealous of what can be and only then will wider change be possible.

Living near downtown was/is wonderful, I think.  Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I lived on Cincinnati Pl, between 17th and 18th on what is now the trail just east of the expressway exit.  It was a very old, somewhat ragged duplex that needed rebuilding rather than bulldozing, but that's a different discussion.  Definitely not upper end housing, but only a block or two away from upper end Maple Ridge.  Anyway, worked downtown and went to school at TJC before the newness and name change.  Very seldom got further away than 31st and Harvard or east out to Matt's place at Starship on 11th - visiting friend in his little rental unit in the back was a "going to visit the suburbs" event.

Even earlier, we used to go to the Warehouse Market on Elgin doing family shopping.  Loved the way the old wood floors creaked in part that was not concrete.  They had the old Hunter ceiling fans.  Small, dark and kind of dingy, but very 'homey' feel to it, if you know what I mean. 

Even as sparse as downtown was then - going through the throes of urban renewal - there was the Savoy, Nelson's, and Coney Island, Logan Concessions for snacks, and Veteran's bar for pool, beer and dominoes.  And a few others that I can't remember.  Even some department stores left, but they were getting out fast.  May Rooms if one were so inclined - I never was, but did know some of the girls.

I (and several friends of that time) thought it was a great place to live and work.

Was the Midland Valley RR still running in that area then?
It looks like the houses on the east side of Cincinnati PL are still there.  Was your place part of the IDL or just run down?  What would have been the real economics of rebuilding?  I know people "rebuild" boats, cars, and planes and have way more $ in them than they could ever expect to get back.


Those old Hunter fans last forever.  We have a Hunter clone, 52", 4 blade that I installed in 1979.  It's a heavy sucker, about 50 pounds.  I checked the oil bath once about 20 years ago and it was fine.  It runs 24/7/52. Still running fine.

I kinda forgot to post this to my favorite urban blog!  You can also see the News On 6 video at http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?S=16685889 (http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?S=16685889)

News Release

BRADY DISTRICT LEASING TAKES A JUMP
Contact:      Will Wilkins, 918-902-0760      For Immediate Release
February 6, 2012
 
Tulsa, OK – In just under two weeks, Will Wilkins with W3 Real Estate, has moved to execute commitments and leases for just over 20,000 square feet of new commercial activity in the heart of the Brady Arts & Entertainment District.  These concept will build upon an already unique business base and will focus on bringing an even more diverse demographic and set of interests to an area already known for that. 

With the advent of the Brady Hotel Center that features a Fairfield Inn by Marriott, 200+ planned and completed residential units, the proximity to ONEOK Field and the pending completion of the Hardesty Arts Center, Woody Guthrie Museum and others, Brady has become one of Tulsa’s most active and attractive spots for commercial activity.  Already, 60% of the retail ground floor of the Brady Hotel Center is under negotiation, bringing with it new restaurants, retail and entertainment venues.  According to Will Wilkins, the Brady Hotel Center has just two spaces remaining; a 1,550 square foot location ideal for retail or a coffee shop and a 3,200 square foot space that would make for another new restaurant in the area.

New tenants have been found to occupy the Ward Building located at 107 N. Boulder.  “As soon as construction began on the Boulder Bridge, we were inundated with calls,” says Wilkins.  These concepts will transform the previously unoccupied, 14,000 square foot building into an entertainment complex that is capable of attracting all ages. 

“We quite literally are running out of room for potential lease tenants and are moving to convert as much existing space within the Brady, that may have previously gone underutilized, to meet the growing need,” says Wilkins.  Already within the last six months, Classic Cigars has opened their second location at 118 N. Boston Avenue, and a new lounge called Valkyrie will be taking up residence within the coming months at 13 E. Brady.   

W3 Real Estate represents David Sharp, Brady 41 LLC and some properties offered by Interak Corporation.  Together, they are the largest property owners in the Brady Arts & Entertainment District.  “That has offered us the unique ability to be somewhat picky about what we want in the District,” says Wilkins.  They are committed to bringing in new businesses that will benefit the District as a whole, while being careful to choose concepts that are not direct competitors to those that already exist in the area.  “We want to make sure everyone brings something new and unique to the area, even if it’s just a difference in the drinks they serve, the products they sell or the atmosphere they generate,” says Wilkins. 

Wilkins hopes to open additional space in the comings months and to attract new retail ventures to this growing urban district.


Will and Cecilia Wilkins of W3 Real Estate have been actively and successfully promoting downtown redevelopment over the last several years, from sales of properties for redevelopment, to concept planning and executing new development plans on behalf of downtown property owners.  They continue to broker other historic downtown structures for redevelopment and are actively pursuing real estate and development deals within the business core and the Brady Arts & Entertainment District. 

####
 
For further information, please contact:
 
Will Wilkins, W3 Real Estate at 918-902-0760

From a different perspective, I thought I would offer some general comments regarding the parking in and around the Brady District.  For the most part, the Brady District has sufficient parking to handle current business traffic BUT FOR a few things.  Up until now, a growing number of parking spaces around the Brady businesses have had to compete with day long parkers from the business and technology districts over the bridge taking up space that is crucial to their success.  Add to that the growing construction crews, their vehicles and the growing number of businesses that have opened or are planning to open in the coming months and yes, we do have a growing concern about future parking needs.

The ownership is taking steps to remedy any possible effect that this growth may have and working to do so in short order.  Once Brady Square park is completed, there will be additional parking available on all four side of the park.  We have also taken steps to implement 2-hour parking M-F from 8AM-6PM along main business ways such as Boston between Archer and Brady, Main between Archer and Cameron and Boulder between Archer and Cameron.  The City of Tulsa has moved to add 2 hour parallel parking on both sides of Archer between Denver and Elgin, but I think most don't realize that it is available just yet.  We are encouraging business owners and employees to park there so others get fammiliar with the availability.  The hotel will add additional street side parking around its perimeter in the coming months and David Sharp has opened the lot to the East of the Ward Building for Brady patrons. 

We will be working with the City of Tulsa to offer a unique, more long term and sustainable solution to any additional parking as need grows.  With the amount of interest in the Brady District, we are all committed to making it a success on all fronts for patrons and businesses.

On the east side, starting at 17th, there is a vacant lot, then south to the second house - directly across from that one on west side of road.  Underside of the place was good, and it needed the same kind of rebuild the ones on east side have had.  I have friends who lived over there more recently who rebuilt one of those and it is very nice.  Both sides were the same kind of duplex in about the same condition back then.  Rent was $85 per month, bills paid.  Was a very inexpensive part of town then - not like today.

It went for the IDL - that exit ramp was at the back of the yard - the bike trail would be right through the house.

There was some kind of old right of way right behind the house, but don't remember if there was any rail left - I think any steel was gone by then.  Or buried.  I kind of thought at the time that it may have just been an alley, but some of the rest of the neighborhood had alleys and some didn't, so don't know for sure - wasn't used as alley at that time.

Thanks for the updates, Will.

Great stuff!

Are there any business in line for the store fronts on the ground floor of the Metro apartments (aka Tribune II)?

Dan,

To the best of my knowledge, those spaces are still available to lease.  Steve Ganzgow, with American Residential Properties, has told me that CB Richard Ellis is handling the leasing of those spaces for ARP.  I also understand that those spaces are on average about 1,000sf in size.  I think they would be interested in looking at any potential tenant but may have geared more for the live-work potential or office set.

Just getting back in to town at 8:30 and the Brady is a busy place!  Hey Mambos was packed, as was Brady Tavern, Mexicali, Caz's, etc.  Please remember that the District is still offering free valet parking for Brady business patrons on select evenings.  You can valet park at the corner of Brady & Main, in front of Brady Tavern, and they will find you a safe and secure, nearby parking spot.  Also...remember to tip your valet!

I'm not going to say the valets don't deserve a tip but if you have to tip them, the parking is no longer free.

Just a minor point.

I keep hearing about the streetscaping in the Brady and how it will drastically improve the Brady in the coming months. I thought this project was a long ways out. Has it already started? If so then in what areas? I agree that it will indeed make the Brady look a whole lot better.

Hopefully if it has not started then it will start soon.

No it hasn't started yet. It will start around the park, museums and KOTV studio areas first then go west on Brady. Will start seeing the streetscaping in the next few months.

There is some streetscaping on First at Boulder. Is this part of the Keiser plan?

Was there a vote on the Pop Museum funding today?

I was shocked that OETA funding was approved for another year.

Wow OETA got funding that is amazing considering the state we are in.

do you know what the bill number for the pop museum is?  i can't find it.

Apparently our Chamber was there today.  Not sure what came of the situaltion.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120426_16_A11_OKLAHO848912 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120426_16_A11_OKLAHO848912)

Tulsa Metro Chamber members lobby at Capitol; About 225 metro leaders push a variety of causes

Just read approved for 2 more years.  Super shocked.

I hope Tulsa area legislators don't agree to support bond funding (another $40 million on top of previous $60 million) for the native American museum in OKC in exchange for a promise of Pop museum funding next year.  Next year never comes for Tulsa in the Okla. legislature.  However, I don't see any way Tulsa gets the money without OKC getting another $40 MM.

They’ve dropped the ball and mis-managed that whole Indian museum project from the start.  Screw ‘em and let them finish it out with private funds.

Yeah, but if we screw'em, they screw us. damn politics.

I agree, Okla. tax payers' $60MM contribution is more than enough and, even with the project threatening to sit unfiished, the local OKC gov't/business/tribal community is still only willing to put in $30MM IF Okla. kicks in another $40MM.  However, Tulsa has no chance of getting any state money for the Pop Museum if OKC doesn't get to scarf up some more at the gov't trough.  As much as I want the Pop Museum, I think Tulsa legislators are better off waiting another year and letting OKC sweeten up the offer (scale back the project, more private money, less state money, etc.) before making a deal.

Even if we don't screw'em, they screw us.

There is a sign up on the Central Parking Garage just north of the BOK Tower and the Jazz Depot offering Brady District parking for $2 Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.  I assume they stay open until 2.  There is no parking excuse anymore.  It's just a stroll over the pedestrian bridge and you are right there.  Not to mention I think there is still valet in front of Brady Tavern.  Not sure if there is a charge or only tipping involved.

Workers are currently cleaning up the Ward Building at 107 N. Boulder. Did I miss it, or has something been announced for that building?

Vague info is all I find on the internet:

http://www.newson6.com/story/16685889/brady-art

And...
http://www.tulsaworld.com/site/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleid=20120422_477_E2_Cmecab910468

A vodka Bar, a gym (?) and some kids thing.  It's already been discussed.

Sounds like a $2 excuse to me.

I agree with RA on this.  When there is a street car that runs through the brady, then people will be out of excuses.

  If people are going to complain about $2  they need to stay home and or work and not be out cavorting around the Brady Arts District. 

We've had the pay for parking conversation many times.  In my case, I choose not to pay for parking on top of everything else.  You are partially right though.  If I can afford a couple (have to drive home) beers at $7 to $10 each including tip, what's another $2 for parking except for my attitude about paying it.  I guess I'll just have to go to Baker St Pub or where ever it was you loved so much across from Woodland Hills Mall.

Edit: OK, I checked McNellie's beer list and saw a couple as inexpensive as $4.50 before tip that I would drink but most were  $5.50 to $8.00 before tip.

If you approach from 1st street, that $2 Brady parking becomes $5 BOK parking..
At least I was a chump and payed $5.. I kinda thought that they mustuv raised the price... but nope...the banner still says $2.   So make sure you mention the $2 price on the banner.

Ok.   To each his own. Ain't nobody in south Tulsa suburbia going to accommodate me and what I like, why on earth should we water down our potential urban areas to make them less urban to accommodate suburbanites?   There are pleeeenty of people who love good urban areas so imo, we need to make our downtown into one thats attractive to urbanites (and their willingness to pay 2bucks for parking to be in a good urban area, or take transit, or walk/bike a little).  As I have said before, we have almost 200 square miles of suburban stuff for those who like that within the city limits alone, surely we can allow about 1% of that to be good quality urban space?  We don't need to try and make our downtown someplace that will be attractive to everyone.  We can't, because I have heard every excuse in the world on why people won't go downtown and if we tried to accommodate every one of those and fix every complaint,,, we would turn downtown into the area around Woodland Hills Mall.  Just this week I was talking to a lady and mentioned our Art Deco Museum project downtown.  She went on railing about how we should have built it in south Tulsa because she wouldn't go downtown.  She mentioned Utica Square (as if that was downtown) and how she hated the "logistics" of going there and the traffic.  Whatever that meant.   It's just absurd the things I have heard.  I mentioned parking garages to some people and then they started saying how "parking garages are scary".   So, you know what, not going to worry about those kinds of people.  I say make downtown into the best urban area we can to allow those people who love good urban spaces to have something they find just as fantastic as those who can't stand urban areas and who like suburban type ones.  Nobody ever HAS to pay for parking downtown, IF they are willing to walk/bike or take transit.    

I don't expect you to.


I don't mind walking a few blocks and have been downtown when street parking is free.  Transit is not really an option, yet.  My only real point is that pay parking is not an attraction to me.  Maybe it is to others.  If there is something I really want to do, I'll pay for parking but expect some grumbling.

Suburban sprawl isn't an attraction to me either but I don't point that out and "grumble" about it every time something, new restaurant etc., in suburbia gets brought up in this forum.  I know a LOT of people who do not like all kinds of things in suburbia but do we really want to point each and every one of those things out in every conversation that there is something grumble worthy, to me, going on there?  Is that what we are about?

Hey they are bulding this or that at 71st and Yale let's grumble about it not being as urban as I would like, I hate berms, I hate neighborhoods that aren't on a grid and only have one or two exits, I hate there not being sidewalks, I hate large parking lots, I hate cheap bland looking buildings, I hate wide roads, I really hate wide intersections, etc. etc.... Am I going to grumble about every new thing that it is being done there as something I do not like?  No, cause that area is what it is lol.  Let downtown be the best urban area it can be, and let 71st and Memorial be the best suburban sprawl it can be.  To each his own.  I can say I don't want to live in or visit suburbia for ABC reasons and that I dont like it, but I hope I don't constantly grumble about everything thats done or built there because it's not urban enough.  I don't know, perhaps I should and let all the suburbanites know how it feels when they constantly grumble about things in downtown.  I don't care about the $2 parking and you shouldn't care whether I don't like the ugly parking lot by the mall.

+1

Article in today's Tulsa World about Oklaoma Pop Museum that says the project could go away if it doesn't receive state bond money soon.  Not sure how much of that is posturing, but I don't think Tulsa can get this money without OKC getting another $40 million for the Indian museum.  Not much indication the legislature is willing to put out $80+ million in bond funding for these two projects.

       

Proposed OK-POP museum seeks one-time bond issue for funding
 

OKPOP, as the museum would be known, is proposed for the Brady District, and could be one of a handful of elite facilities of its type, Oklahoma Historical Society Executive Director Bob Blackburn said. Courtesy By WAYNE GREENE World Senior Writer
Published: 5/2/2012  1:49 AM
Last Modified: 5/2/2012  7:41 AM

A proposed popular culture museum for downtown Tulsa won't need any state funding to operate, according to a pre-design study being distributed to state lawmakers.

Museum backers are seeking a one-time $42.5 million state bond issue to finance construction of the project.

While they don't make the comparison, the contrasts to the half-built state Native American Cultural Center in Oklahoma City are obvious.

The cultural center has been the beneficiary of three state bond issues totaling $63 million and millions more in city and federal funding. The Oklahoma City project is asking lawmakers for another $40 million bond issue this year.

The authority that is building the facility has already gotten $35.4 million in state appropriations since 1997, including about $30 million over the money to finance the facility's debt, according to Office of State Finance records.

"We will not need an appropriation to operate," said Oklahoma Historical Society Executive Director Bob Blackburn.

The pre-design study projects annual operating costs for the museum - known as OKPOP - at $2.1 million, including a staff of 22. That amount will be covered by admission charges, annual donations, income from the facility's planned five-story, 650-space parking garage, facility rentals and other nontax income sources, the report shows.

 The historical society has a track record of developing facilities that are self-supporting, most prominently the Oklahoma History Center just northeast of the state Capitol, Blackburn said.

The Tulsa museum is envisioned for a 90,000-square-foot lot donated by the Bank of Oklahoma along Archer Street between Boston and Cincinnati avenues.

The four-story museum would feature almost 25,000 square feet of exhibit space and another 41,000-square-feet of other public and semipublic space, including research areas, classrooms, performance space and retail operations.

The museum would be dedicated to the creative spirit of the state's people and the influence of those artists on popular culture around the world, the report says. Its permanent collection would include artifacts, archival materials, film and video, and recorded interviews.

Blackburn said he thinks the facility has a chance to be one of the handful of elite pop culture museums in the nation, putting Tulsa in the exclusive league with Nashville, Seattle, Cleveland, Ohio, and Los Angeles.

The $42.5 million price tag on the project is higher than previous estimates, but Blackburn said it now reflects specific input of architects and construction companies.

The costs include $26.7 million for the museum and $10.7 million for the parking garage. The proposed bond issue also includes nearly $3 million for architectural and consulting fees, enough to ensure the building will have a world-class look, Blackburn said.

If the Legislature approves a bond issue for the project this year, the report envisions design and preconstruction work to begin in 2013, construction to begin in September 2014, exhibit installation to begin at the beginning of 2016 and a grand opening in June 2016.

The state's first payment on the project wouldn't come due until fiscal year 2015, by which time some 300 jobs would have already have been created by the effort, Blackburn said.

A unique set of circumstances - including low interest rates, the incipient state of Brady District development and the backing of Tulsa philanthropists - make the project feasible, but not for long, Blackburn said.

Legislative leaders have said publicly that there is little chance for a bond issue other than a possible $160 million to $200 million package to do repair work to the state Capitol, but Blackburn said the Tulsa project is time-sensitive.

"If we delay two years, I think this goes away," he said.

160-200 mill for a vanity project in OKC.  Great  :-[   

Oh, and another 10 million dollar parking garage instead of putting that money into a downtown transit system. 

I really do wonder how much it would cost to purchase then run/maintain per year, a couple of small busses and or wheeled trolleys that would circulate downtown to and from the ample parking that already exists?   

A new parking garage 50 feet from the newly expanded giant parking garage that's just across the Boston Avenue pedestrian overpass???

That existing garage is empty nights and weekends. Plus we just added street parking along Archer in that stretch that's underutilized. How much parking do we need?

When I walk from one side of downtown to another, I've always thought of counting the empty parking spaces I pass. But then I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

The parking garage will primarily serve the BOK employees since they are losing surface parking by donating it to the project. 

Looking out my east side BOK Tower window I count 38 1/4 block surface lots.

Every time, no.  When you do, you don't hold back.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18206.msg214174#msg214174


Sure, I complain about things urban when they are attempted to be applied to things suburban with an attitude that to do otherwise is criminal.  Sidewalks, dense housing, form factor zoning for an urban area are fine. 

If you all think pay for parking is an attractive attribute to an urban area, fine.  Go for it.  I would rather have a remote free park and ride lot for light rail or a (real) trolley and pay more for a round trip trolley ride than I would pay for parking after driving all the way down town. 

I believe I have been mostly supportive of urban things for downtown, except pay parking, when they are applied to downtown areas.  Sometimes I say I support something for downtown and then add that I support it for "you" even though I don't want it for myself.  Take it how you want.

Since when are sidewalks solely for urban areas? Suburbanites need to be able to walk, too...

I counted 163 the other night (last Friday around 8:30 PM) when I went on a walk, and that was on 3rd/4th and connecting side streets from one side of downtown to the other. Yet two paid lots on that route where full :/

Tulsa World is Facebooking that the legislature "should" approve the bond for the OKPop museum.


Oh for the love of pop...I should read the whole article...it's their opinion.  Not that they believe it will happen.

Dammit.

This. We donated our parking lot. We need somewhere to park every day.

Gilcrease Museum FB post:


(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/s320x320/546677_10150848668869705_106997899704_9771668_624087013_n.jpg)

I think I know what I'm doing for my lunch hour tomorrow.

 I just gave a downtown Deco Tour today for an art class that was from there so I guess they are already open somewhat.

Well, the OKPOP Museum (State Capital repairs and the Native American Cultural Museum, also) is now headed to the floor:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120522_11_0_OKLAHO192488

Panels sign off on funding for Capitol repairs; Tulsa, Oklahoma City cultural centers

By WAYNE GREENE World Senior Writer
Published: 5/22/2012  10:29 AM
Last Modified: 5/22/2012  3:58 PM

OKLAHOMA CITY -- Two legislative panels have signed off on a bond issue for the proposed popular culture museum for downtown Tulsa.


The committees OK'd a $20 million bond for the Tulsa project, $22.5 million less than supporters had asked for.

The panels also approved a $200 million bond issue for repairs to the state Capitol and surrounding buildings and a $40 million bond for the half-built Native American Cultural Center in Oklahoma City.

The three bills now go to the full House and Senate for consideration.

During the Senate committee's consideration of the Tulsa project, Senate President Pro Tem Brian Bingman said the rest of the $22.5 million to fund the OKPOP Museum will have to be raised privately. Earlier in the day, Oklahoma Historical Society Executive Director Bob Blackburn had said he hoped to come back to the Legislature for the rest of the money needed for the museum next year.

Rep. David Dank, R-Oklahoma City, said both the Tulsa and Oklahoma City projects were needed.

"We can't have the Native American Cultural Center sit there and rot or whatever," Dank said. "I'm equally enthused, if not more so, for the POP Center in Tulsa."

The Oklahoma City project has benefitted from three previous bond issues, totaling $63 million.

Edit:
I believe the OKPOP Museum is now SB1989

OK POP passes the Senate 25-21!  The House votes tomorrow - make calls or show up at the capitol tomorrow and show your support. 

that's great to hear!  my fingers are crossed for tomorrow.

use those fingers to call your representative!  :)

i've already sent her and email, and actually got a response.

edit: she said she was for it.

Brady development from Hey Mambo FB:

(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/205267_460523947294480_1179094173_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/217862_460524033961138_1439919060_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/393103_460524377294437_100000106350168_1835007_973206853_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/250959_460524623961079_420953591_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/8052_460524723961069_1691502688_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/526796_460524820627726_1696314332_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/527672_460525067294368_1002825876_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/537737_460525250627683_90862653_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/428558_460525420627666_413272327_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/543582_460525860627622_353261641_n.jpg)

The Valkyrie bar is open on Brady now. Quite a well-curated beer list they have, and no wasted tap handles.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Valkyrie/312738182093955 (http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Valkyrie/312738182093955)

we went on saturday night before the bon iver show.  we will most likely go back.  they had a nice selection of beers on tap.  the wine selection is not that big.  they basically had one selection for each type of wine.  it looked like they had a decent liquor selection for mixed drinks and such.  i liked the look of the decor inside.  it seemed similar to edward delk, but more subtle.

Does anybody know if there are plans to bury the utility lines in the Brady District like they've been done throughout the rest of downtown? Looking at the pictures make me realize how much better the area would look without all the utility lines.

I'm guessing that unless the tenants pony up for it, probably not.

I like it as well. I expect that it can get fairly loud in there though since there are no soft surfaces to absorb sound.

Posted twice due to Delks and Brady district development.

Juniper owner to operate Edward Delk's, open Brady District steakhouse in the fall

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=371&articleid=20120806_371_0_Justin214637 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=371&articleid=20120806_371_0_Justin214637)

From a FB post:

Opening in less than a month.

(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533589_10151155607088182_315461205_n.jpg)

Does anybody know when they are going to start on the Brady flats? Heard they were going to start when Fairfield Inn was done.  How about Urban8?

KOTV is moving over to the new building over the next few weeks.

News On 6 Employees Tour New Griffin Communications Media Center

http://www.newson6.com/story/20267102/news-on-6-employees-get-sneak-peak-of-our-new-digs?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.newson6.com/story/20267102/news-on-6-employees-get-sneak-peak-of-our-new-digs?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)


(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/20267102_BG1.jpg)

New Cedar trees were planted on Main street between Brady and Cameron. They look great while they are small, but not sure if they are a good idea long term unless someone keeps them trimmed and "christmas tree shaped"

Parking meter guy.

I think that is a union job...so its not in his job description.

6 On The Move: The History Of The Brady District, Tulsa's First Neighborhood

http://www.newson6.com/story/20664446/6-on-the-move-the-history-of-the-brady-district

Sadly, insuring the reliability of electric service isnt enough of an incentive to bury lines.
You would think there would be some regulations...

How many weeks is Channel 6 gonna spend devoting half of their newscast patting themselves on the back for opening a new building?

Probably quite a few.  It helps to self promote.

I noticed that they spoke highly of preserving old architecture and the red brick feel of the Brady district but built a building that in no way reflects that style.

According to Tulsa Tough's email today, the Saturday gathering after the Gran Fondo will be at Guthrie Green.  Should be a lot of fun.  Registration has opened for the Saturday and Sunday road rides for those of you who are considering doing them this year.

The highest rated local newscast spends precious minutes extolling the virtues of downtown (yes, in a self promotional way) and people are complaining about it?  This was an empty field next to the highway.  I think the building looks great next to the Guthrie Green and the move opens up the old location for a much better use in an entertainment district.

Well lookitchu.

Don't worry.  You're not alone in the appreciation of everything you've listed.

No matter what I post, they will not close up shop and leave.

Seriously though, they're the highest rated?

The story about the Brady is one of the least irksome things they've done regarding their move. Saturday, and again Monday, it was a tour of the new building that included everything but the urinals. They've been pumping that move for months.

At least there was some substance to that Brady piece other than just 'look at us, we accomplished something great by moving.'

Sorry, I just watch the news to see actual news rather than news personalities and stations inserting themselves into everything.

RE: KOTV - I like their new building. I have no complaints. I have this one complaint: their landscaping needs some landscaping.

Let the sod take root and it'll look fine by spring.  They could use some trees though.

KOTV had a news story on Ringo (formerly my next door neighbor).

The three legged wonder.  I've been called that before.

Don't ask.

Tulsa's downtown development reflects pride of those involved

History, architecture lead to differences in development in Oklahoma City's Bricktown, Tulsa's Brady Arts District.

(http://photos3.newsok.com/cache/w640-58936c34cfcb9f8f6c65cdf589cc36f1.jpg)

http://newsok.com/tulsas-downtown-development-reflects-pride-of-those-involved/article/3754402/?page=1 (http://newsok.com/tulsas-downtown-development-reflects-pride-of-those-involved/article/3754402/?page=1)

Nice.

I sure wish we could bury power and communications lines in downtown, in the Pearl and on Cherry and Brookside.

No kidding.

(http://photos3.newsok.com/cache/w640-58936c34cfcb9f8f6c65cdf589cc36f1.jpg)

That utility-provided floodlight on the pole in the background would also have to go.  
Nothing says "high crime area" like high-intensity floodlights, and no, they aren't vision-friendly (or likely welcome in those apartments to the right).

A died in the wool OKC guy essentially saying that OKC doesn't have that much if anything over Tulsa.  What I've been saying for a long time.  People here just keep on comparing us to them in a bad way, and it just ain't so.  Even during the worst of urban renewal - as Lackmeyer mentions - OKC was demolishing more buildings than we were.  It was bad enough here to be ridiculous.

Each town has things that complement what the other has, so we actually should be working that angle to the benefit of both. 

Like a high speed rail line so that people from both ends could easily, quickly, cheaply, and conveniently visit the other end.  The train ride from OKC to Fort Worth is a very fun trip (have done it several times) that makes a great little get-away weekend type thing.  We should do the same thing between our two cities so people here could share and experience both towns better.

KOTV reported this week that the Brady District TIF is ending.

http://www.newson6.com/story/35720169/tulsas-brady-district-tax-reaches-successful-end

I didn't see any specific figures, but from what I've heard, there's still a sizable amount of funds that are tied to the district for continued support. The article just says funding to continue support, but I don't think it's under $500k

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/smallbusiness/degrees-north-to-add-office-space-in-nearby-building-in/article_05fe6446-0cb7-5145-9d7c-b10980bdc846.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/smallbusiness/degrees-north-to-add-office-space-in-nearby-building-in/article_05fe6446-0cb7-5145-9d7c-b10980bdc846.html)

I've heard Brady District office space runs about 2x downtown, which is already about 2x the rest of the city. Like our own little Silicon Valley.

Just wondering if we should take these kids with their fancy ideas and teach them financial realities up front. Make them work in an un-airconditioned warehouse at 46th and memorial, stocked with a wobbly card table, a dialup connection and maybe some maxwell house.

Those are like anti-entrepreneur buzzwords.

Like the recent unhappy Google employee who called the place a Goolag? He was likely making $160k and working in an office with free massages and coffee bar.

Nah, Folgers would be punishment enough.

  ;D
 

Off topic, but...

Do they still make Sanka?

Awesome news, 36th North is really humming along.  Home grown companies are a far better investment in Tulsa than home run gift packages to out of state super-mega-corps.

I never realized the brick building on the corner and the two story white building were actually one and the same structure.  Learn something every day...

Not sure about Brady District office space, but pretty skeptical it would run 2x downtown and I'm pretty sure downtown rents are not 2x the rest of the city.  A quick look at LoopNet listings confirms.

Just cool so much space is back in play in the Brady District that sat empty for years.

I would have to assume that supply (or lack there of) may have a little to do with it. Really is there that much speculative office space in the Brady area? I would think it would be in the thousands of square feet, not even 10's of thousands.

And CBRE is convincing the owners of those spaces that they should rent for $7.50 sq ft !!   What a racket.!!   We are gonna move out of town real soon for the warehouse facility.

Maybe the name change of the district's business association will help with those rent costs!

Yeah! That will make a REAL difference! The change we all needed!

I don't know why they hate MB Brady so much. I know he wasn't the best photographer, but there weren't too many others at the time.

Seriously though, this whole thing was a bit ridiculous from the beginning. Just about every single historical figure was a vile racist or involved in some heinous things (Lincoln believed that blacks were inferior to whites; Andrew Jackson led the genocide of natives; Columbus led to the slaughter and enslavement of many; etc). Very few people would have known anything about who Tate Brady  was if it weren't for the big outrage from a small group of people about it. I don't think a name change is going to take on very easily and there will be quite a bit backlash against that.

Woody Guthrie was a racist and an America-hating communist so he doesn't deserve the namesake either.

"Racism is Bad Blvd"

I vaguely recall one of the local news channels, hunting down some black owned businesses when the whole name change thing was going on and their reactions were priceless:

(http://memeshappen.com/media/created/WHO--meme-45475.jpg)

If you have to dump the Brady name why not just enlarge the Greenwood District to include that whole area.  Historically Greenwood extended all the way to Cincinnati/MLK:
(http://www.tulsapeople.com/greenwoodmap.jpg)

The area west of MLK could be the Greenwood "Arts District" while the rest would be Greenwood north of the tracks.

Okay, I’m trying to wrap my head around how “Greenwood District” doesn’t conjure images of hatred and racism due to the race riot there in 1921 yet somehow the “Brady District” moniker does.  Leroy Chapman’s research into Tate Brady was full of holes and innuendo and when challenged on it, refused to back it up, on this forum.

There’s other research out there which points to a repentant Brady who renounced his earlier ties to the Klan.  I think many of us would like to think we completely understand the culture of 100 years ago, but without being there all we are left with is recollections and stories to interpret someone’s character. 

Certainly the stakeholders can name it whatever they want as they are the ones who have the investment in the area.  I personally think it’s a big to do about nothing. 

If the name “Brady” can make you feel repressed a century later, you are worrying about the wrong things.

Kind of one of the things about the whole statue controversy - even us old ones don't know for real what it was like then.  I got exposure (on many occasions) to a light dose of it when very young - the 'colored only' signs on the stores downtown.  I couldn't figure out why blacks got to use that door - which was closer to the soda fountain at the drug store - and we had to walk all the way around the building and go in a different door.  Seemed unfair to me.  To 5 year old legs, that was a long ways out of the way!    Much later I understood, and it made even less sense and was even more unfair than I thought.

In mid teens, got to visit McClain for a while, met a girl who I liked and she liked me.  Asked her out and was turned down because her parents woulda had a fit for her to go out with a white kid.  Another exposure to leftovers from that long gone era.  But then, was also catching carp from goatropers, sh$tkickers, and jocks, for hanging out with Native Americans, too.

Don't know that it is the actual name "Brady" - other than being the focal point of feelings - as the collective residual effects from all those endless ages of history piling up in the backs of our heads.

I was born after segregation and the passage of the CRA's just barely.  But I can definitely see what society considers acceptable thought, discussion, and humor regarding race, sexual orientation, and ethnic background has changed a good deal in my lifetime.

I don't know that the thinking of the time 100 years ago was necessarily hatred as it was ignorance and society evolving.  Look where we are today, think where we will be in 100 more years.  I'm sure there's not a single person monitoring this thread whose social and moral views haven't evolved over the course of their lifetime. 

I'd sure hate to be permanently remembered for what I thought, said, or believed when I was in my teens, twenties, or even five years ago.  I can think of stupid things I said or did as a teen that I'd be horrified to be labeled for life for it.  I feel the same way about people like Tate Brady.  All a few people want to remember him for is an association with the Klan and a very murky link to the race riots.  Never mind that he was a founding father of Tulsa who helped set the course for the young town.

It was hatred 100 years ago.  Still a lot of it today - as we have seen in recent weeks.

We are only partially evolved.

This discussion has been rolling around in my head for a few days now - I had occasion to be in a small "hicks from the sticks" town last weekend and was in a local car parts store to get some parts for minor repair.  Couple of good ole boys were talking about some hunk of junk they were working on and I heard a phrase I had not heard in probably 20 years or more related to engineering done on the African continent.  I was so surprised - not really sure why, but there it is - that I just stood there for a few seconds replaying it in my head...I guess I thought it was such an obsolete term that no one used it anymore.  Especially given the rhetoric and name calling all over the news for the last few weeks - if extremist wants to be his typical self, I guess they just immediately jump to the most vitriolic, obnoxious term they can think of - plus, the simplest, requiring the least amount of mental processing necessary (2 syllables vs 6).  Which taxes the limits of most.


As for Brady being a founding father who helped set a course for the young town - that also includes the legacy of extermination, genocide, and stealing of lands from the Natives.  Yeah.  He is more complex than just a simple Klanner. 

As were so many - half of my family was stealing from the other half at that time.  It was rationalized.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/university-of-notre-dame-group-to-create-urban-designs-for/article_407e8b9c-399b-55f9-953c-db14fab0e590.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/university-of-notre-dame-group-to-create-urban-designs-for/article_407e8b9c-399b-55f9-953c-db14fab0e590.html)

I thought that was a neat article very relevant to the Brady, Greenwood and Brady Heights district. I hope they find some good workable recommendations for the area as well as a big-vision plan.

It is neat the facilitator living in Tulsa is  Jennifer Griffin who is former Notre Dame faculty and graduate and wife of Selser Schaefer Architect. Great that people are taking initiative to do this kind of a study and urban design project!

The renaming committee came up with the following names:

- Bridge Arts District
- NoDo Arts District
- Boomtown Arts District

How about just keeping it Brady.  I guarantee no one will ever use these ridiculous new names, and it will only confuse people especially visitors.

NoDo? Like broke?

NoDo like broke. That's funny.  Every 3rd city has something similar...SoBo, LoDo, SoDo, ToTo, MiFaSo, etc.   Boomtown sounds like a Chucky Cheese Art District. 

Bridge is different, but what does it mean? The place that is on the other side of all the bridges?  Bridging a cultural divide?  You kind of need a dramatic looking bridge for that logo, don't you?  Are they re-renaming W.M. Brady Street?  If so, the theater could be nicknamed "The Old Lady on the Bridge."  Renaming these districts is hard.  You need some strategery.  Needs to be inclusive. If I had to vote from the 3 choices, I'd take Bridge.  Or I might just fly that new Tulsa flag and call it "New Tulsa Flag Arts District."   Of course, just being silly! 

Wonder if Walsh is involved it helping pick names?  They do nice work. 

Like SoBo in Tulsa? I always preferred The South End for 18th and Boston, but SoBo caught on more.

I just thought they would go with Guthrie Arts District.

I am glad they are finally tackling this whole "Brady" arts thing. Once the name is changed, all the problems of the past will disappear. Solid win.

Yes. Because everything won't change all at once, nothing should change. Sound logic.


Those three choices are terrible.

A friend of mine last night suggested naming it the Busey Arts District.

I'm gonna go with that from now on.

For a district full of artists, those names lack any hint of creativity.

I know it's a joke but they don't want to name it after anyone.

The reason the Brady exists is due in large part to the railroad. Underground Arts District? Eh. If it must be changed go with Tulsa Arts District or Greenwood Arts District over those three choices and leave it at that.

We can skip the sniping on if the name should be changed, because it's happening. The owner of the Mayo theater has said he has no intentions of renaming it for the time being.  The City has made no indication that it intends to again change the name of the street.  Really, the question is what should the name of the business association be - which is the de facto name of the district:


NoDo is supposed to mean North of Downtown.  I'm not a fan because every district in the 1990s was named some similar concoction of syllables.  Once South Park has made fun of a archetype, its well and truly played out.  In fact, Omaha named their north of downtown the NoDo District...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Omaha#North_Downtown


Boomtown is "meh" to me.  There is already a Boomtown district in some town in West Virginia and dozens of businesses around the country named "Boomtown" this or that.  Including Boomtown Tees in Tulsa, which is not in the Brady District.  To me, it kind of sounds like an old west amusement park, mimicking the old west boomtowns that usually went bust.  Boomtown isn't unique to the Brady District or to Tulsa and only marginally describes the district.

Tulsa Arts District is far too generic.  Greenwood is already taken, I doubt they'd appreciate having their name taken over by a neighboring district that is distinctly different.  

I think the Bridge District is better than the other choices on the table.  You basically have to go over or under a bridge to get to the district (generally defines the borders of the district), it "bridges" cultural norms  or stereotypes or whatever, and there isn't a Bridge District in the US that I can find.  Brady and Bridge are similar enough to flow the same.  The district could use the name as a reason to improve the bridges and underpasses to be something interesting (Center of the Universe is already there, plus the Boulder Bridge has art and several of the underpasses have murals already).  

I heard several other options, some I liked better - but ultimately whatever the new name is a few people will like it, most won't really care, and some people will be hostile.

I have a feeling that most of the people that are hostile never go there, so who cares what they think?

How about "Wrong Side of the Tracks" District?

Just kidding.... don't hate!


Seems like Archer and Cameron or a combination of the two would be at least as good as Brady District.

Archer-Cameron District   Kind of defines the area talked about - 'sound' is good.
Archer District                Doesn't "roll of the tongue" very well - don't really like that.
Cameron District             This has a good 'sound' to it, too.

I'm all for the name change if the business owners want it, but these choices are terrible, and I'm not one to be critical for the sake of being critical.  Tulsa Arts District is generic, but better than these three.  I don't think at all of bridges when I think of that area.  I get it, kinda, but I call them "overpasses" and what comes to mind for me is that they are a pain during downtown running events.  Boomtown I guess would be my choice by default, but it's just not a fit in my opinion for an arts district.  NoDo is a no go, and the fact that it's even proposed surprises me because it's super lame.  I know they don't want to choose a person, but Guthrie Arts makes sense because the city has already chosen Woody for the park.  

I get that it’s their business association and they can call it whatever they want, but the city, Chamber, etc. spent a lot of effort and money over the years helping to promote the Brady District brand.  Even worse, they are casting off their brand after those 20+ years of effort are finally paying off.  Each of these proposed names is nondescript to the place specifically or to Tulsa generally and will leave most of us struggling with what to call it.  I assume people believe it is important for an area to have an identity and a name given how every area works so hard to promote a name and an identity.  But now we are left scratching our heads.

What are people in south Tulsa going to say when they propose to their friends to go downtown - “hey, let’s go to that area that used to be called The Brady District but now is something about bridges because you have to go over or under a bridge to get there, unless you enter from Elgin because then you just have to cross some railroad tracks and hang a left on Brady, except we’re not supposed to say Brady, because of history, or something.”

If they’re going to rename/rebrand it, call it the “Bars, Cars & Drunks District” or, even more fitting, “The Jailhouse District.”   At least then we will know to where they are referring.

Yet we still have the Brady Theatre, the Brady Heights neighborhood and the Brady Street.  It's Brady and always will be. 

This will go over as well as some realtors who wanted to change the name of the areas south of I-44 and north of 71st to Outer Midtown.  Or the business group that wanted to change the name of Riverview east of Boulder to Uptown.  Or when they wanted to change the residential area north of Cherry Creek to NoChe.  I really, really hope they don't choose NoDo..

The signs are already designed:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51HhUh9i7lL.jpg)

Some names I came up with last night based on the area containing some of the oldest buildings in town, a place that's really a part of early Tulsa history and that helped pave the way for Tulsa's future... and names I could imagine myself saying to other people without laughing:

Heritage Arts District - A lot of Tulsa's 'firsts' happened in the area. Heritage has a nice sound to it. "I hear that new restaurant in the Heritage District is really great!"
Legacy Arts District - Similar to heritage, also has a nice sound.
Founders Arts District - Since we tore down the oldest buildings in Tulsa for the Williams Center complex, this is really the last piece of town that our founders built that still exists.
The Roots District - Similar to the previous in that this is where Tulsa's roots are (minus the Council Oak Tree), but 'roots' is more down-to-earth than either 'heritage' or 'legacy', somewhat relates to Guthrie & Dylan, Cain's is where the roots of Texas swing are, and the whole district is where a lot of new roots have begun to take hold.
Tribune Arts District - The Tulsa Tribune building is a local landmark, and was one of the first residential projects downtown in decades. Tribune also means 'a champion of the people'.

I really can't believe the three finalists are the best of the bunch that all the creative folks in the area could come up with.

I agree, all of yours are much better.

The HAD, The LAD, The FAD, (https://img.discogs.com/x4vzE-E5wqJXcrbSZvQwb-zzDd8=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/A-2412751-1482080953-5417.jpeg.jpg) and The TAD are all easy for signage and to text your friends where you are.

"I'm at the TAD."

I agree. It won't go over well. It is enshrined in the name "Brady" quite well and it will always be the Brady Arts District to me and many other Tulsans. I will continue to call it that and so will my friends.

Look at the results for the Tulsa World poll: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/which-proposed-name-for-the-brady-arts-district-do-you/poll_4de21718-995a-11e7-8891-ebc81ffceb98.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/which-proposed-name-for-the-brady-arts-district-do-you/poll_4de21718-995a-11e7-8891-ebc81ffceb98.html)

Looks like 3 to 1 against the new name.

"Brady Arts District" is dominating the user-submitted names too (especially when you take out the joke names): http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/readers-came-up-with-suggestions-for-a-new-name-for/poll_fd954b8a-9969-11e7-a670-a7135fdd3d73.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/readers-came-up-with-suggestions-for-a-new-name-for/poll_fd954b8a-9969-11e7-a670-a7135fdd3d73.html)

No, it hasn't happened yet. It's not absolute. If enough people voice their concerns and enough people keep calling it the "Brady Arts District" then that will remain the "de facto" name. They may be able to hang up banners and pass out pamphlets but people will call it what it is: the Brady Arts District.

If they wanted the name to change, they shouldn't have picked such terrible names. They would have picked something that at least most people could embrace.

To 99% of the population it is just a name. No connotation, just a part of the city and a theater that also bears the name.

Well, apparently about 25% seem to care now that someone was able to scrape up some dicey evidence that Tate might have been involved with KKK at a young age (~20) even though he is quoted denouncing the KKK. Basically anyone from any influential family would've been seriously courted to join back then and would've been tough for anyone in his shoes to understand how bad it was in those early years and stay away.

So no absolute proof and now they educated far more Tulsans that the name "Brady" could've maybe had some ties to the KKK at some point in time, bringing that to the public's attention while it would have otherwise remained an unknown "maybe".

These are all better than the ones the creatives created.  My favorite is the Roots Arts District.

What's wrong with the "Greenwood & Arts District" - For short call it "The GARD"  You could promote it as "Avant GARD"  I struggle to figure out the geographical boundaries of Greenwood and Brady anyway.  Surely Greenwood isn't just the block around Greenwood & Archer?  

I think they decided on The Bridge - a faint reference to the overpasses, but they're more into bridging the race and cultural divide -- I think.  Walsh Branding is part of that district.  I'd think they could come up with something better.  They do good work.

I saw someone suggest Bob Wills District.  Obviously for the Cains.

I've always thought Main from Archer to I-244 should be renamed "Bob Wills Music Avenue" or similar.  But, then people might start looking deep into his background...deeper than has ever been looked at before and find ????

I've heard some people upset about Woody Guthrie - socialist, etc. 

But I'm pretty sure most everyone knows Woody was considered a socialist.  He wrote a song specifically about 45s father.

Here's one passage:

I suppose
Old Man Trump knows
Just how much
Racial Hate
he stirred up
In the bloodpot of human hearts
When he drawed
That color line
Here at his
Eighteen hundred family project

And he rewrote part of another ("I Ain't Got No Home") to include him:

Beach Haven ain’t my home!
I just can’t pay this rent!
My money’s down the drain!
And my soul is badly bent!
Beach Haven looks like heaven
Where no black ones come to roam!
No, no, no! Old Man Trump!
Old Beach Haven ain’t my home!

That would be the deplorable Nazi and KKK parties.


His guitar and it's most famous sign;


https://www.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Woody_Guthrie_NYWTS.jpg&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Guthrie&h=3677&w=2926&tbnid=zg7lN27uc1M3hM:&tbnh=186&tbnw=148&usg=__GtLCFXHFQomPH2ZqRMA-Rg2vTyE=&vet=10ahUKEwj8j72RpabWAhXDbFAKHeSsCAIQ_B0InAEwEg..i&docid=beWGKZ2liy_8RM&itg=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8j72RpabWAhXDbFAKHeSsCAIQ_B0InAEwEg&ei=eU67WbzvJcPZwQLk2aIQ

Namesake of Marshall's This Machine IPA.  Done (Marshall reference in a mostly unrelated thread).