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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: AVERAGE JOE on November 15, 2009, 07:49:32 pm



Title: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: AVERAGE JOE on November 15, 2009, 07:49:32 pm
After years of effort by city officials, a local retailer will open a full service grocery store in the vacant Albertson's location at Pine and Peoria.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20091115_11_A1_Antoni877907 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20091115_11_A1_Antoni877907)

Irony: Mayor-Elect Bartlett's number 1 priority (according to his victory speech Tuesday night) has already been accomplished before he takes office.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: MDepr2007 on November 15, 2009, 08:01:57 pm
I wonder what the Las Vegas odds are for it closing in under 18 months if not 9.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: SXSW on November 15, 2009, 08:52:19 pm
A Las Americas, er Gateway Market, is a perfect fit for this location. 


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: brianh on November 16, 2009, 12:47:47 pm
I have this whole security problem solved. Take part of the parking lot and put in a Quicktrip, or make one adjacent to it.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hometown on November 16, 2009, 12:49:25 pm
Mr. Perez is a real go getter.  He is the owner of Las Americas and soon to be the new proprietor at the Gateway grocery facility.  We shop at Las Americas on Lewis and find they have the best prices on produce.  I get my hair cut in a shop at his Las Americas on 3rd Street.  He is also the founder and an owner of TeleTul -- Tulsa's new Latino Television Station.  And I have also noted his outspoken opposition to Oklahoma's Draconian Anti-Immigrant law.  Thank goodness that Mr. Perez and the Latin Community have revitalized a number of Tulsa's older neighborhoods.   It appears that without them, there would be no takers at all.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hoss on November 16, 2009, 12:53:49 pm
Mr. Perez is a real go getter.  He is the owner of Las Americas and soon to be the new proprietor at the Gateway grocery facility.  We shop at Las Americas on Lewis and find they have the best prices on produce.  I get my hair cut in a shop at his Las Americas on 3rd Street.  He is also the founder and an owner of TeleTul -- Tulsa's new Latino Television Station.  And I have also noted his outspoken opposition to Oklahoma's Draconian Anti-Illegal-Immigrant law.  Thank goodness that Mr. Perez and the Latin Community have revitalized a number of Tulsa's older neighborhoods.   It appears that without them, there would be no takers at all.


Fixed that for you.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: MDepr2007 on November 16, 2009, 04:49:04 pm
A Las Americas, er Gateway Market, is a perfect fit for this location. 

And they'll only be 2 miles apart. How does this help those north of 36th street north, since they'll be more than 2 miles from a grocery store still?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on November 16, 2009, 04:56:45 pm
And they'll only be 2 miles apart. How does this help those north of 36th street north, since they'll be more than 2 miles from a grocery store still?

Far better than what their alternatives are now, which is Admiral and Lewis.  Perhaps if the intended customers won't shop-lift from this store another will open. 

I hope no one thinks that's a racist statement, it absolutely is not.  Whites, blacks, and latinos all shopped at that store. But it is the reason why they could not get a grocer after Albertson's folded their tent.  I also understand many felt that Albertson's had the highest prices in town.  The grocery business is a for-profit business, not a damn charity.

Take care of the neighborhood and the neighborhood will take care of you.

Oh, and HT, I agree about Mr. Perez.  A great entrepreneur.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: waterboy on November 16, 2009, 05:26:12 pm
I'm sure they're shoplifting wherever they shop now which is Admiral & Lewis or Reasor's at 15th & Lewis. Might as well keep it local.  ;) Shoplifting is at epidemic stage everywhere right now.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: USRufnex on November 16, 2009, 05:34:19 pm
Perhaps if the intended customers won't shop-lift from this store another will open.  

I hope no one thinks that's a racist statement, it absolutely is not.  Whites, blacks, and latinos all shopped at that store. But it is the reason why they could not get a grocer after Albertson's folded their tent.  I also understand many felt that Albertson's had the highest prices in town.  The grocery business is a for-profit business, not a damn charity.

Take care of the neighborhood and the neighborhood will take care of you.

No, it's not a racist statement, per se.  But it doesn't put things in the proper context when you make a blanket statement lumping "intended customers" in with shoplifters.

Most customers in higher crime areas aren't shoplifters.
Most grocery store chains have razor-thin profit margins.
Most national grocery store chains like Albertson's wouldn't touch a higher crime area with a ten-foot-pole.  They left higher crime urban areas a decade or two ago....

DETROIT:  A City Without Chain Grocery Stores
Sheena Harrison, CNN, July 22, 2009
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/22/smallbusiness/detroit_grocery_stores.smb/index.htm

I was rooting for an ALDI to go to that location on Pine and Peoria.  I like them much better than Sav-a-lot.  I occasionally will make a special trip to the ALDI's on 129th and 21st St.  Put in my quarter to unlock my shopping cart, buy mostly ALDI's generic brands, save money, sack my groceries using my own bags... go home.

My strategy for Tulsa:  Entice ALDI to the northside now...... then, after you convince the Germans who own ALDI that they got a good deal there..... convince them to put a Trader Joes downtown a few years later......

Otherwise, Tulsa may get it's first Trader Joes someday......... in Jenks.   :D




Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: FOTD on November 16, 2009, 05:44:14 pm
Talk to your lazy state reps if you want a movement to quality groceries. The wholesale and retail Boozery distributors are prohibiting these decent grocers from entering our market.

Like your ALDI idea....


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: pmcalk on November 16, 2009, 08:05:25 pm
I have heard from more than one source that there was no more shoplifting at the albertsons on Pine & Peoria than the one on 15th & Lewis. 

The difference is that most grocery stores make their money on high-end goods, specialties like extra-virgin olive oil, gourmet mushrooms, sundried tomatoes, etc....  In lower income neighborhoods, you don't get a lot of shoppers for those items.

Allowing grocery stores to sell alcohol is one sure way to increase their profits.  Alcohol is one of the biggest mark ups.



Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: SXSW on November 16, 2009, 09:13:08 pm
I have heard from more than one source that there was no more shoplifting at the albertsons on Pine & Peoria than the one on 15th & Lewis. 

The difference is that most grocery stores make their money on high-end goods, specialties like extra-virgin olive oil, gourmet mushrooms, sundried tomatoes, etc....  In lower income neighborhoods, you don't get a lot of shoppers for those items.

Allowing grocery stores to sell alcohol is one sure way to increase their profits.  Alcohol is one of the biggest mark ups.

I never understood why Albertson's was there in the first place.  They were the most expensive grocery store in town near some of the city's lowest income neighborhoods.  I thought Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market would probably do better there but Las Americas should be a good fit.  The area around Pine & Peoria is lower income but not a bad neighborhood.  The neighborhoods further to the north are a different story.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on November 16, 2009, 11:34:22 pm
I have heard from more than one source that there was no more shoplifting at the albertsons on Pine & Peoria than the one on 15th & Lewis. 

The difference is that most grocery stores make their money on high-end goods, specialties like extra-virgin olive oil, gourmet mushrooms, sundried tomatoes, etc....  In lower income neighborhoods, you don't get a lot of shoppers for those items.

Allowing grocery stores to sell alcohol is one sure way to increase their profits.  Alcohol is one of the biggest mark ups.



In talking with one of the operators of the non profit grocery near 21st & SW Blvd behind Eugene Field Elementary, he related a few surprises.  They don't sell the three main pilfered items: candy, tobacco, and alcohol very low shrinkage


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: SXSW on January 19, 2010, 09:48:45 am
It's open! 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100117_11_A19_Wanita956368&archive=yes (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100117_11_A19_Wanita956368&archive=yes)


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: patric on February 07, 2010, 10:34:11 am
It's open!

It's been robbed!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100207_298_0_Anewgr400395
...in less than 3 weeks.

Someone must be very proud.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on February 07, 2010, 11:27:08 am
Since he'd already left did TPD respond or just tell them to fill out a report for the detective?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: azbadpuppy on February 07, 2010, 01:42:53 pm
That is really a shame. There are obvious reasons why this area gets such a negative portrayal in the media and by local residents.

Honestly though, it appears crime is pretty rampant throughout Tulsa. Haven't there been a rash of robberies in Midtown lately? Walgreens, Quiznos, etc?

It does not appear these types of crimes are exclusively limited to north of Admiral.

Security obviously needs to be more of a priority for all business owners in Tulsa.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: SXSW on February 07, 2010, 03:53:21 pm
That is really a shame. There are obvious reasons why this area gets such a negative portrayal in the media and by local residents.

Honestly though, it appears crime is pretty rampant throughout Tulsa. Haven't there been a rash of robberies in Midtown lately? Walgreens, Quiznos, etc?

It does not appear these types of crimes are exclusively limited to north of Admiral.

Security obviously needs to be more of a priority for all business owners in Tulsa.

Very true, although many people will make snide remarks like "I told you so" just because it's in North Tulsa.  When in reality stores like the Food Pyramid at 41st & Peoria have been robbed multiple times and no one is worried about that store closing or receiving a community block grant to stay open...


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on February 08, 2010, 07:46:11 am
3 Weeks into business. . . Robbed at gunpoint last night.
(http://kjrh.img.entriq.net/img/dp_thumbs/thumb_1265588842165_0p3423451629082488.jpg)

Perhaps the news shouldn’t have reported this?

Blaming cuts in police budget in 3. . .2. . . 1. . .


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: sgrizzle on February 08, 2010, 08:13:43 am
3 Weeks into business. . . Robbed at gunpoint last night.
(http://kjrh.img.entriq.net/img/dp_thumbs/thumb_1265588842165_0p3423451629082488.jpg)

Perhaps the news shouldn’t have reported this?

Blaming cuts in police budget in 3. . .2. . . 1. . .

Humorous comment made about him passing through "self checkout" in 3..2..


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on February 08, 2010, 08:18:45 am
Would you like your cash in paper or plastic?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: rwarn17588 on February 08, 2010, 09:25:50 am
That is really a shame. There are obvious reasons why this area gets such a negative portrayal in the media and by local residents.

Honestly though, it appears crime is pretty rampant throughout Tulsa. Haven't there been a rash of robberies in Midtown lately? Walgreens, Quiznos, etc?

It does not appear these types of crimes are exclusively limited to north of Admiral.

Security obviously needs to be more of a priority for all business owners in Tulsa.

I hope they stick it out. My missus and I make it a point to shop there at least once a week, even though it's a bit out of the way from where we live. We figure that sending some money their way is good for the community at large.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on February 08, 2010, 09:48:42 am
The irony is that they sent home the two security guards after the store closed at 9pm.  I doubt that happens again.

Of course they will stick it out.  I was laughing at Councilor Henderson's comments in the paper this morning along the lines of: "Don't worry this store won't close because of this, we'll find the bad guy".  What a dolt.  Grocery stores don't wind up being shuttered over a single armed robbery usually.  I think this was blown out of proportion on account of a slow news weekend.  Time to retire this simpleton Henderson in the next election.  I'm quite certain district 1 can find someone more dynamic with an IQ over 100.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: BKDotCom on February 08, 2010, 11:25:27 am
Humorous comment made about him passing through "self checkout" in 3..2..
Nice try... be he's in the lane next to the self checkout.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hawkins on February 08, 2010, 07:40:23 pm
Very true, although many people will make snide remarks like "I told you so" just because it's in North Tulsa.  When in reality stores like the Food Pyramid at 41st & Peoria have been robbed multiple times and no one is worried about that store closing or receiving a community block grant to stay open...

Peoria from 61st to 41st is the straight up hood.

If you are reading this from outside Tulsa, and planning a trip here, AVOID PEORIA FROM 61st to 41st AT ALL COST.

We don't want you to get shot while you are visiting.  :)

--

As for this grocery store... armed security guards? An airport-like metal detector? Snipers on the roof? Charles Bronson hiding out in the back room?

This won't be the last time it happens.

--



Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on February 08, 2010, 07:58:14 pm
Peoria from 61st to 41st is the straight up hood.

If you are reading this from outside Tulsa, and planning a trip here, AVOID PEORIA FROM 61st to 41st AT ALL COST.

We don't want you to get shot while you are visiting.  :)

--

As for this grocery store... armed security guards? An airport-like metal detector? Snipers on the roof? Charles Bronson hiding out in the back room?

This won't be the last time it happens.

--



Have you driven Peoria north of I-44 in the last 20 years? 

Try again.

It's more centralized around the apartments in the 61st & Peoria to Riverside area and south, and perhaps a few blocks north of 61st. 


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Jennifer on February 08, 2010, 08:04:10 pm
Peoria is perfectly fine from 41st all the way up past I-44.

It really is only bad for about a 6 block square around 61st.  There are some really nice houses behind the Neighborhood Walmart and a gated community on the east side of peoria, all past 41st.

We live close to 36th and drive past 41st on nearly a daily basis, we just head down to riverside at I-44 and then back up 71st if we are going any further.  :P

That being said I had some friends who lived in some perfectly nice townhouses back behind some of those apartments on 61st between peoria and riverside. So it really is a very localized problem.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hawkins on February 08, 2010, 08:14:15 pm
Have you driven Peoria north of I-44 in the last 20 years? 

Try again.

It's more centralized around the apartments in the 61st & Peoria to Riverside area and south, and perhaps a few blocks north of 61st. 

What are you talking about? Those apartments are... well they are a place you don't want to be, to put it lightly.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: SXSW on February 08, 2010, 08:40:45 pm
What are you talking about? Those apartments are... well they are a place you don't want to be, to put it lightly.

It's not that bad though I wouldn't suggest walking around those apartments or anywhere around 61st & Peoria at night.  Once you go north of I-44 the neighborhood is significantly better, just like if you go east a mile to 61st & Lewis you run into Southern Hills and the nice neighborhoods around there, especially to the south which is one of my favorite 'hoods in Tulsa along Evanston north and south of 71st.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on February 08, 2010, 09:24:26 pm
What are you talking about? Those apartments are... well they are a place you don't want to be, to put it lightly.

No, don't transit 61st & Peoria after dark.  You are grossly incorrect though as characterizing the area from 41st to 61st as dangerous, it's simply not true, especially north of I-44 to 41st. 


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: rwarn17588 on February 08, 2010, 09:34:37 pm
Peoria from 61st to 41st is the straight up hood.

If you are reading this from outside Tulsa, and planning a trip here, AVOID PEORIA FROM 61st to 41st AT ALL COST.

We don't want you to get shot while you are visiting.  :)
--
As for this grocery store... armed security guards? An airport-like metal detector? Snipers on the roof? Charles Bronson hiding out in the back room?

This won't be the last time it happens.
--

What a load of crap.

I bet you hide under the bed when the UPS guy delivers a package to your front door.

I lived near East St. Louis for eight years and drove through it regularly without anything happening. Trust me, Peoria Avenue from 41st to 61st doesn't remotely resemble that town -- nor does anyplace else in Tulsa.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hoss on February 09, 2010, 06:58:26 am
No, don't transit 61st & Peoria after dark.  You are grossly incorrect though as characterizing the area from 41st to 61st as dangerous, it's simply not true, especially north of I-44 to 41st. 

Agreed.  My cousin whom I also work with and used to hang out with a lot lives at 41st and Trenton.  It really starts getting dicey at about 55th St.  I have a former coworker who lives on 55th Street east of Peoria.  While I've seen better neighborhoods, he hasn't had any problems in the 8 or so years he's lived there.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: godboko71 on February 09, 2010, 12:49:23 pm
Could a moderator split the Robbery & Peoria related topics into there own threads?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on February 09, 2010, 01:43:13 pm
Peoria from 61st to 41st is the straight up hood.

If you are reading this from outside Tulsa, and planning a trip here, AVOID PEORIA FROM 61st to 41st AT ALL COST.

We don't want you to get shot while you are visiting.  :)

--

As for this grocery store... armed security guards? An airport-like metal detector? Snipers on the roof? Charles Bronson hiding out in the back room?

This won't be the last time it happens.

--



It seeps out of that area too.  Apparently the residents take “field trips” when their aren’t enough nice things to steal from each other.

My wife's car was stolen from our drive way last year in August.  It was just recovered last week.  They found it, and caught the suspect at an apartment complex between 41st and 51st off of Peoria.  Not sure which one, that was all the info the woman at TPD would give us since the car belongs to the insurance company now. 

I was impressed that they had been driving it without changing the plates or anything for 5 months.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: USRufnex on February 09, 2010, 01:54:54 pm
The Walgreens at 15th and Lewis just got robbed, so I guess they should close down too.... boy, who knew that thieves could own cars.....

Let's all move to Broken Arrow.

/snark


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on February 09, 2010, 02:15:44 pm
Wow!  I had no idea.  This is just the crime map for the last two months between Admeral and 36th N. 

(http://gallery.me.com/scottgaspar/100039/crimejanfeb/web.jpg)

Perhaps Ruf is right, we should move to Broken Arrow.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Red Arrow on February 09, 2010, 03:26:57 pm
The Walgreens at 15th and Lewis just got robbed, so I guess they should close down too.... boy, who knew that thieves could own cars.....

Let's all move to Broken Arrow.

/snark

Probably stole the car too....

BA doesn't want a bunch of people that attract criminals.   ;D


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: SXSW on February 09, 2010, 03:57:11 pm
BA's property crime is slowly increasing.  You really can't escape it anywhere in the metro whether you are in far south Tulsa or near 36th and N. Peoria.  That being said when I lived in Tulsa for 15 years I never once experienced a burglary or any other type of crime.  When I lived in Denver I was only there three weeks and both my apartment and car were burglarized and later there was a homicide just a few blocks away.  So all in all I feel pretty safe in Tulsa...

But yeah the inner north side is still notorious for not only high rates of property crime but also violent crime including a good majority of the 70 homicides committed in Tulsa in 2009.  Revitalization of the "border" neighborhoods like Brady Heights, Pearl, and Kendall-Whittier will go a long way to improving the neighborhoods further to the north like University Park, Crutchfield, and Sequoyah.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: patric on March 16, 2010, 10:34:17 pm
Sadly, there is already talk of them possibly closing.
I dont have any details.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: godboko71 on March 16, 2010, 11:23:50 pm
Sadly, there is already talk of them possibly closing.
I dont have any details.

That is sad, I kind of like Gateway, that said I can get the meat I have been getting there at any of the other Las American's Grocery Stores.

I would be interested in knowing why they are closing. They are at least as busy as any given Warehouse Market, the Pharmacy department has signs up and looks like it is about to open. Seems odd that they would close when they just put signs up for the Pharmacy on the out side of the building.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: sgrizzle on March 17, 2010, 05:30:23 am
They say despite changes, business is week and progressively dropping. They will reevaluate and decide in 4-6 months whether they will close or not.

For that size of store, and the added costs on things like security, they can't make it by being "kinda busy" they need to be very busy all day long.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on March 17, 2010, 07:31:38 am
Just WIC approved which may help them.

This could be  an example of what happens when a government finances a business just to have business in a given area whether the market will support it or not.

I hope it lasts.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on March 17, 2010, 08:16:21 am
I can't believe they would have been that poorly capitalized going in if they are already talking about closing.  Has this been in the media or is this rumor?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: swake on March 17, 2010, 08:20:20 am
I can't believe they would have been that poorly capitalized going in if they are already talking about closing.  Has this been in the media or is this rumor?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100317_11_A9_Gatewa320612


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: DTowner on March 17, 2010, 08:29:23 am
If a grocery store operated by an owner with a proven record of success and with access to grant funds cannot make it work in this location, it will be a long long time before north Tulsa gets another grocery store (or other other types of retail, for that matter).


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: CharlieSheen on March 17, 2010, 08:33:13 am
Why blow through 4 years of capital hoping that people in the area that were complaining about not having a place to shop, then getting a place to shop will start spending more of their money there?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: rwarn17588 on March 17, 2010, 09:05:02 am
One of the things that's being overlooked is that the population in north Tulsa is declining fast. There are elementary schools up there that barely have 200 kids. In a volume business, it's hard to make money when your base is shrinking.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: swake on March 17, 2010, 09:30:54 am
One of the things that's being overlooked is that the population in north Tulsa is declining fast. There are elementary schools up there that barely have 200 kids. In a volume business, it's hard to make money when your base is shrinking.

I want the store to work, it's good for the area. I went to BTW and the area around that store has improved greatly and it's good to see. But, it's a Roscoe Turner created myth that there were no grocery stores in North Tulsa. There are five or six along Admiral including a Walmart Supercenter out east. There's one at 62nd St N and Peoria and another at Pine and Lewis.  There just aren't as many as there used to be, but like Rwarn said, there also just aren't as many people.

Now, I also wonder if part of it is that a lot of the stores along Admiral are Hispanic grocery stores. Maybe those don't count to Roscoe? But if you don't count Hispanics as part of your north Tulsa population then the population there is really far down. The area of North Tulsa between Admiral and Pine used to be almost entirely black, now it's mostly Hispanic.

Is the former Albertson's also hurt by being owned by the owner of some of those Hispanic grocery stores and not by someone of the traditional black community?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on March 17, 2010, 10:29:32 am
Swake, thanks for the citation. 

"He said he'll re-evaluate the performance of the long-awaited grocery store in four to six months and decide whether it's worth keeping open.

The 57,000-square-foot store is one of the largest in the city and has about 50 employees.

City leaders had worked for two years to find a tenant for the building, and Perez received $2.2 million in Community Block Development Grant funds to put a grocery store at the site.

The space had been empty since 2007, when Albertson's pulled its stores from the area.

"Gateway Market, because of its location, has suffered perception problems since the project was announced. Those only worsened when a man robbed the supermarket at gunpoint Feb. 6.

Since the robbery, Perez said, the store has added security, but business has continued to decline.

"We had to deal with the robbery and people being afraid of people coming into the store," he said. "But business hasn't gotten any better since then."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100317_11_A9_Gatewa320612

Here's a few issues I take with the story as written and a few random thoughts:

The World seems to be banking on this store collapsing.  Perez says he will review performance in four to six months.  The article seems to report with glee near the top of the story that the store may close within months as if the closing is certain and imminent.  That sure as hell doesn't help the image of the store if people think it's going to fail.

Any idea what all the $2.2 mil block grant went toward?  Why wasn't there a year of operating capital included in first year funding and the business plan?  What happens on the re-payment plan should the project go tits up?  As I recall there was some sort of repayment expected toward TEDC or one of the economic development agencies.

I call BS on the armed robbery being any sort of a problem.  An employee was killed by a gunman during an armed robbery at the former Albertson's at 41st & Peoria about ten years ago and there have been countless armed robberies of various grocery stores and people robbed in parking lots and yet those stores remain robust and solvent.

Maybe, as other posters suggested, this store over-serves the area and it was nothing more than a perception by some that north Tulsa was being under-served in the grocery market.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: rwarn17588 on March 17, 2010, 12:08:15 pm

Now, I also wonder if part of it is that a lot of the stores along Admiral are Hispanic grocery stores. Maybe those don't count to Roscoe? But if you don't count Hispanics as part of your north Tulsa population then the population there is really far down. The area of North Tulsa between Admiral and Pine used to be almost entirely black, now it's mostly Hispanic.

Is the former Albertson's also hurt by being owned by the owner of some of those Hispanic grocery stores and not by someone of the traditional black community?

I've wondered that myself. Maybe someone should ask Roscoe, but you'd better have your BS meter turned on first.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: DTowner on March 17, 2010, 12:34:10 pm
I did not read the Tulsa World as taking glee in the potential failure of the Gateway Market.  They were sensationalizing a story on what has been a high profile issue.  Whether he initiated the story or it was initiated by the paper, Perez seems to be shooting a pretty clear shot across the bow of Tulsa leaders generally and north Tulsa leaders specifically about his unhappiness with the performance of this store.  If the Gateway Market fails, it will kill any effort to attract other retail to north Tulsa.  If a store located in an essentially new building with $2.2 million in grant money cannot make it selling something as basic as food to an allegedly underserved population, then what kind of retail can make it in north Tulsa?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacks fan on March 17, 2010, 01:16:21 pm
I've wondered that myself. Maybe someone should ask Roscoe, but you'd better have your BS meter turned on first.

<---  One BS meter


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on March 17, 2010, 01:20:57 pm
I did not read the Tulsa World as taking glee in the potential failure of the Gateway Market.  They were sensationalizing a story on what has been a high profile issue.  Whether he initiated the story or it was initiated by the paper, Perez seems to be shooting a pretty clear shot across the bow of Tulsa leaders generally and north Tulsa leaders specifically about his unhappiness with the performance of this store.  If the Gateway Market fails, it will kill any effort to attract other retail to north Tulsa.  If a store located in an essentially new building with $2.2 million in grant money cannot make it selling something as basic as food to an allegedly underserved population, then what kind of retail can make it in north Tulsa?

And again, why is it companies like Warehouse Market, which thrives in lower income areas, snubbed this location for two years?  They would have been a logical fit, yet they never showed one iota of interest.

Perhaps I overstated the "with glee" part, but entering the story at the top with a prediction of failure within months strikes a very negative connotation with the reader very early in the story.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hoss on March 17, 2010, 01:30:58 pm
And again, why is it companies like Warehouse Market, which thrives in lower income areas, snubbed this location for two years?  They would have been a logical fit, yet they never showed one iota of interest.

Perhaps I overstated the "with glee" part, but entering the story at the top with a prediction of failure within months strikes a very negative connotation with the reader very early in the story.

I'm wondering if WHM feels like their store at King St and Sheridan IS in North Tulsa.  Technically, sure it is, but all their stores are much smaller in footprint (even the newer one at 11th/Garnett) than 57000 sq feet.  I'd have to estimate that the one at 11th/Garnett is closer to about 25000, but I'm not an expert on guesstimation of floor area.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on March 17, 2010, 01:32:26 pm
I'm wondering if WHM feels like their store at King St and Sheridan IS in North Tulsa.  Technically, sure it is, but all their stores are much smaller in footprint (even the newer one at 11th/Garnett) than 57000 sq feet.  I'd have to estimate that the one at 11th/Garnett is closer to about 25000, but I'm not an expert on guesstimation of floor area.

No reason they couldn't have built out 1/2 the space and left it up to the landlord to lease the other 1/2.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: waterboy on March 17, 2010, 01:32:48 pm
Speaking of BS, lets keep things real here. Myths indeed. Those stores on Admiral and out east are not "north side" stores. Northsiders routinely bypassed them in favor of 15th & Lewis and Brookside grocery stores. They also ignored the store at Gilcrease and Edison which truly is north side. Whether it was because of the condition of the stores or the racial status of their shoppers is unclear, though I suspect many folks between Admiral and 21st (Southsiders by your designation Swake) also ignored those stores for the same reasons.

Then, comparing a robbery in a neighborhood reputed to be crime ridden vs a Brookside grocery store surrounded by upscale dense housing is pure bs.

Roscoe et al may be BS spin meisters, but you guys are in the race too.



Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hoss on March 17, 2010, 01:38:48 pm
Speaking of BS, lets keep things real here. Myths indeed. Those stores on Admiral and out east are not "north side" stores. Northsiders routinely bypassed them in favor of 15th & Lewis and Brookside grocery stores. They also ignored the store at Gilcrease and Edison which truly is north side. Whether it was because of the condition of the stores or the racial status of their shoppers is unclear, though I suspect many folks between Admiral and 21st (Southsiders by your designation Swake) also ignored those stores for the same reasons.

Then, comparing a robbery in a neighborhood reputed to be crime ridden vs a Brookside grocery store surrounded by upscale dense housing is pure bs.

Roscoe et al may be BS spin meisters, but you guys are in the race too.



Disagree with you about Gilcrease/Edison.  I lived out that way from age 18 to 20 and regularly visited and helped my grandmother (who lives right there) with shopping and the like since then.  That shopping center when it housed Homeland was just fine at the time.  The WHM on 49th West was cutting into their business because Homelands were pricing themselves out of existence.  I only shopped there in an emergency and got to where I was shopping more at WHM.  I liked it that I was buying local (sort of; at least regional).  You could almost get some groceries cheaper at the Mays Drug Store next door to them.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacks fan on March 17, 2010, 01:48:28 pm
Just my take, after reading the articles and then sifting through the comments, the thing that came out most was their prices, and product selection. Apparently no Wonder Bread, Kraft, Pepsi, and other American brands was the main criticism, too many Hispanic brands (the first one that claims I'm racist get's a pop knot on the head!!! read the comments after the article) and others were commenting on the fact that some items were almost twice the price at WHM and SaveALot. Also the WHM at 62nd and North Peoria is in Turley not North Tulsa, and yes it is a low income area I think it's a world away from Pine and Peoria.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: custosnox on March 17, 2010, 02:57:43 pm
Just my take, after reading the articles and then sifting through the comments, the thing that came out most was their prices, and product selection. Apparently no Wonder Bread, Kraft, Pepsi, and other American brands was the main criticism, too many Hispanic brands (the first one that claims I'm racist get's a pop knot on the head!!! read the comments after the article) and others were commenting on the fact that some items were almost twice the price at WHM and SaveALot. Also the WHM at 62nd and North Peoria is in Turley not North Tulsa, and yes it is a low income area I think it's a world away from Pine and Peoria.
RACIST!!! oh, sorry, couldn't help it.  Anyhow, the real comment I was going to make is that Turley isn't a township.  While outside of the Tulsa city limits, it is still in Tulsa county.  So spliting hairs, but it's not far from the real crime ridden area's of North Tulsa (places that even I worry about going into). 


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: YoungTulsan on March 17, 2010, 03:21:44 pm
When we are talking about North Tulsa are we going by the literal definition of anything north of Admiral Pl., or more specifically the further north cluster of residences mostly around 46th to 66th, Cincinnati to Lewis?  The WHM at 62nd & North Peoria definitely serves that area regardless of whether it is Turley or Tulsa.    Another WHM at Pine & Peoria would be overkill.  Pine & Peoria is actually quite a haul for someone that lives at 56th & N Cincinnati where transportation may be an issue.  There are also several closed down former shopping center structures in the 56th & Peoria area that could be put to use if the market demand were there.

The real problem with this neighborhood isn't a lack of upscale shopping (and I believe WHM has the "no frills grocery" demand covered) - it is a lack of jobs.  You can't just bring in upscale shopping and hope that will solve the community's problem.  There is no where decent to work up there.  No office jobs of any kind.  A shopping center isn't going to thrive until there are people working at paying jobs nearby stopping off for something to eat or a stroll through the store on the way home.

Jobs first, then shopping centers.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on March 17, 2010, 03:24:44 pm
When we are talking about North Tulsa are we going by the literal definition of anything north of Admiral Pl., or more specifically the further north cluster of residences mostly around 46th to 66th, Cincinnati to Lewis?  The WHM at 62nd & North Peoria definitely serves that area regardless of whether it is Turley or Tulsa.    Another WHM at Pine & Peoria would be overkill.  Pine & Peoria is actually quite a haul for someone that lives at 56th & N Cincinnati where transportation may be an issue.  There are also several closed down former shopping center structures in the 56th & Peoria area that could be put to use if the market demand were there.

The real problem with this neighborhood isn't a lack of upscale shopping (and I believe WHM has the "no frills grocery" demand covered) - it is a lack of jobs.  You can't just bring in upscale shopping and hope that will solve the community's problem.  There is no where decent to work up there.  No office jobs of any kind.  A shopping center isn't going to thrive until there are people working at paying jobs nearby stopping off for something to eat or a stroll through the store on the way home.

Jobs first, then shopping centers.

+10 
"Build it and they will come"  never works.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: swake on March 17, 2010, 04:08:36 pm
Speaking of BS, lets keep things real here. Myths indeed. Those stores on Admiral and out east are not "north side" stores. Northsiders routinely bypassed them in favor of 15th & Lewis and Brookside grocery stores. They also ignored the store at Gilcrease and Edison which truly is north side. Whether it was because of the condition of the stores or the racial status of their shoppers is unclear, though I suspect many folks between Admiral and 21st (Southsiders by your designation Swake) also ignored those stores for the same reasons.

Then, comparing a robbery in a neighborhood reputed to be crime ridden vs a Brookside grocery store surrounded by upscale dense housing is pure bs.

Roscoe et al may be BS spin meisters, but you guys are in the race too.



1st and Lewis may not "technically" be the north side, but it's on the north side of 244 and certainly feels like the north side. The Save a Lot or whatever it's called at Pine and Lewis certainly IS north side. Just like Warehouse Market in Turley may not even technically be in Tulsa, but it also is north side. There are stores.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: TheArtist on March 17, 2010, 04:11:34 pm
I don't buy the "no jobs in the area" thing.  Heck most of the people in Owasso and other further out places get to jobs. If some Mexican can get all the way up to Tulsa, not speaking the language, and then carpool 5 to a truck to south Tulsa to work,,, I dare say the locals could figure out a way to get to work. When I lived in some po-dunk little town in Arkansas I walked over 2 miles to my first job bussing tables at a local hotel restaurant early in the morning, then walked a mile to the next job washing dishes, then walked home after 10:00 at night,,, then got up in the morning and started it all over again. Come rain, snow, cold and hot.  Get a bike, get a scooter, hitch a ride with others.  Ya turn 18, ya get your donkey kicked out of the house and work your way up the ladder like everyone else lol.

As for grocery stores. I have said it before. I think the most likely scenario is to have smaller, old fashioned type, grocery stores in the area. If the city is going to be supporting anything, I would say helping to nurture a couple of small scale, pedestrian friendly developments (this is just the type of scenario that has worked in similar types of areas in other cities) would be better than trying to develop one, large, car oriented, suburban, strip mall type development that relies on trying to draw people in from a large radius for support.  They got those for all intents and purposes. If ya got a car, a couple of miles more isnt going to make a big difference.      


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: YoungTulsan on March 17, 2010, 04:18:40 pm
Deeply impoverished neighborhoods need jobs close by, it isn't the same as Skip & Becky who commute to their $400k home in Owasso but have offices at Utica Place.   In the case of Mexicans, do the type of folk who hire Hispanic laborers even look for regular joes to help out?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacks fan on March 17, 2010, 04:19:24 pm
RACIST!!! oh, sorry, couldn't help it.  Anyhow, the real comment I was going to make is that Turley isn't a township.  While outside of the Tulsa city limits, it is still in Tulsa county.  So spliting hairs, but it's not far from the real crime ridden area's of North Tulsa (places that even I worry about going into). 

One pop knot coming up. ;)

I know that it's splitting hairs on Turley, but if I had my choice in that area I would take Turley over Pine and Peoria. Also, does the WHM there benefit some from Sperry and some of the people living around the Sperry area? A bit of a drive from Sperry to Skiatook or Owasso.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: waterboy on March 17, 2010, 05:33:45 pm
+10  
"Build it and they will come"  never works.


Right. Like that Home Depot at 11th and Elgin that was only built because it was near an exit. No new residential nearby and most people thought they were crazy to locate downtown away from new growth. But they persevered cause they only locate near expressway exits. They figured they would at least get the north side stuff and builders. They were stunned at the business, especially lawn and garden. Ran the Ace Hardware on Harvard and the Burgess Hardware on SW Boulevard plum out of business (Oh, yeah, Sutherlands on Southwest Blvd also disappeared).

Then there was that Arena thingy, and all those other "build it and they will come enterprizes around Blue Dome.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: waterboy on March 17, 2010, 05:34:44 pm
Deeply impoverished neighborhoods need jobs close by, it isn't the same as Skip & Becky who commute to their $400k home in Owasso but have offices at Utica Place.   In the case of Mexicans, do the type of folk who hire Hispanic laborers even look for regular joes to help out?

I think you're right YT. What you guys are missing is consumer behavior. They aren't buying in their own hood for two reasons.  It has too much Hispanic flavor to it AND the people with jobs are buying groceries on the way home from work or school. Since the jobs are farther south, near established grocery stores, that is where they are buying. If you work hourly you know that.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: waterboy on March 17, 2010, 05:42:26 pm
1st and Lewis may not "technically" be the north side, but it's on the north side of 244 and certainly feels like the north side. The Save a Lot or whatever it's called at Pine and Lewis certainly IS north side. Just like Warehouse Market in Turley may not even technically be in Tulsa, but it also is north side. There are stores.

I'm not talking technically. Going to school at BTW is one thing, but you live in Jenks now. First and Lewis is a largely Hispanic neighborhood that I myself would feel uncomfortable shopping for groceries in. When you say "North" Tulsa, First and Lewis does not come to mind, nor east Tulsa at Admiral and Memorial or Turley.

I have to say, I'm not familiar with the SaveALot at Pine and Lewis. However, my brother lives just north of town near Gilcrease Hills. He can travel by expressway to 15th and Lewis as fast or faster than to Pine and Lewis. Easy decision.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: godboko71 on March 17, 2010, 06:31:09 pm
SaveALot is a joke crappy product at high prices both locations so it isn't a "crime" thing. I noticed more Mexican products then most "normal" stores but it isn't a bad thing because they have all the "normal" stuff too. The prices on pantry items are sightly more expensive then Warehouse Market but they are cheaper then Walmart Neighborhood Market, Food Pyramid, and Reasor's.

Long term I think he could help all his locations by re-branding the other stores Gateway, putting all signs in English and Spanish (Gateway is currently all English, the other locations are mostly in Spanish.) Launching a website and having weekly Sales/Deals like the other grocers. Logistically it might be smart to partner with Warehouse Market to increase both chains buying power and lowering prices (or maintaining them) at both chains.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dsjeffries on March 17, 2010, 07:51:39 pm
Also, does the WHM there benefit some from Sperry and some of the people living around the Sperry area? A bit of a drive from Sperry to Skiatook or Owasso.

Um, Sperry is literally four miles from Skiatook. Not much of a drive. It's also that distance from Turley, but I'd say most of Sperry's 900 residents shop in Skiatook for groceries. Just like the residents of Hominy, Avant, Ramona and much of Osage County.


And I think it's too soon to talk about closing Gateway. Business is slow and he's doing the right thing--getting himself in the paper and on the news. More talk, more business. Hopefully.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: swake on March 17, 2010, 08:09:05 pm
Deeply impoverished neighborhoods need jobs close by, it isn't the same as Skip & Becky who commute to their $400k home in Owasso but have offices at Utica Place.   In the case of Mexicans, do the type of folk who hire Hispanic laborers even look for regular joes to help out?
One of the best things about all the new stuff going in downtown is that there are all sorts of new entry level jobs with close proximity to this area. Hopefully it will help with jobs.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: YoungTulsan on March 17, 2010, 08:26:02 pm
One of the best things about all the new stuff going in downtown is that there are all sorts of new entry level jobs with close proximity to this area. Hopefully it will help with jobs.

Yes, it all works synergistically, but I don't see how you can build a grocery store as step #1 in the process like is being argued in North Tulsa.  Skilled (Office and factory) jobs are the starting point.  From there you get the service industry jobs that spring up around the thriving job sites.  The service industry jobs employ the lower class folks who seek employment in the immediate vicinity of their dwellings.   Soon the area reaches an economic critical mass and everyone starts to rise.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacks fan on March 17, 2010, 10:56:49 pm
Um, Sperry is literally four miles from Skiatook. Not much of a drive. It's also that distance from Turley, but I'd say most of Sperry's 900 residents shop in Skiatook for groceries. Just like the residents of Hominy, Avant, Ramona and much of Osage County.


And I think it's too soon to talk about closing Gateway. Business is slow and he's doing the right thing--getting himself in the paper and on the news. More talk, more business. Hopefully.

Foregive me, I have been gone for almost 12 years and looking at things on google earth may be two to three years old. I was just thinking of the area and the people that may go to WHM at 62nd north.

I share the hope that Gateway makes it, maybe they need to rethink their product line, and tailor it to meets the need of the market. (Padon the pun)


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dsjeffries on March 17, 2010, 11:17:37 pm
Foregive me, I have been gone for almost 12 years and looking at things on google earth may be two to three years old. I was just thinking of the area and the people that may go to WHM at 62nd north.

Ha, well that's quite a while. Most people in the area drive to the Wal-Mart Supercenter in Skiatook now.

I think things will pan out for Gateway. Like I said, he's getting himself in front of cameras. In fact, because of this story (and my new proximity) I think I'll try it out next week.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on March 18, 2010, 07:48:51 am
Deeply impoverished neighborhoods need jobs close by, it isn't the same as Skip & Becky who commute to their $400k home in Owasso but have offices at Utica Place.   In the case of Mexicans, do the type of folk who hire Hispanic laborers even look for regular joes to help out?

That's BS. 

There are small communities surrounding every big city where low and middle income individuals commute to work in the city.  There are also a lot of people in North Tulsa who commute to work now.  You can't discount these people by saying they can't get labor jobs because they're NOT Mexican.

Much of the population is lower income and there is a lot of data available on the spending patterns of this population.  Some people feel that they can influence established demographics by simply providing a different offering.  This usually fails.

I think if you take the time to analyse this demographic you will find that they typically do not prepare meals in the home.  They frequent fast-food restaurants for their caloric requirements.  They typically do not plan meals unless related to special occasions.  They don't analyse the cost savings of component food purchasing over pre-packaged. 

I worked on a proposed project for 34th N. Peoria for quite a while and spent a lot of time assembling demographic information on the population.  We had a hard time supporting the development of anything that didn't provide prepared meals at a low cost.  The project died because the developer couldn't generate any interest among franchise groups and national chains. 




Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on March 18, 2010, 08:19:40 am
That's interesting Gaspar, I had assumed the opposite on lower income eating habits.  I assumed they ate more at home out of economic necessity.

No wonder that McDonalds to the south of Gateway Market has always done well...


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacks fan on March 18, 2010, 08:30:08 am
That's interesting Gaspar, I had assumed the opposite on lower income eating habits.  I assumed they ate more at home out of economic necessity.

No wonder that McDonalds to the south of Gateway Market has always done well...

And I think more so now with most all of the fast food places restrucring their pricing adding more $1.00 items, or like Taco Bell with their $5.00 box meal. Even Arby's now has a dollar menu.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on March 18, 2010, 08:38:38 am
That's interesting Gaspar, I had assumed the opposite on lower income eating habits.  I assumed they ate more at home out of economic necessity.

No wonder that McDonalds to the south of Gateway Market has always done well...

That would be a logical assumption, however people in lower income brackets typically make recurrent economic decisions that contribute to their status. 

There have been numerous university studies on Obesity that show the predominance of Fast food chains in low income areas contribute to the obesity problems associated with those populations.  Most of these studies don't take into consideration that the fast food chains are aware of the demographic propensity among these populations to choose the convenience of fast food over the economy of cooking at home.

McDonalds does not put restaurants in poor neighborhoods to create customers.  They put them there because that population has been shown to dedicate a higher percentage of meal purchases to McDonalds than higher income brackets. 

Good business people understand that it's easier to capture customers than create them.



Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: rwarn17588 on March 18, 2010, 08:42:05 am
That would be a logical assumption, however people in lower income brackets typically make recurrent economic decisions that contribute to their status. 

There have been numerous university studies on Obesity that show the predominance of Fast food chains in low income areas contribute to the obesity problems associated with those populations.  Most of these studies don't take into consideration that the fast food chains are aware of the demographic propensity among these populations to choose the convenience of fast food over the economy of cooking at home.

McDonalds does not put restaurants in poor neighborhoods to create customers.  They put them there because that population has been shown to dedicate a higher percentage of meal purchases to McDonalds than higher income brackets. 

Good business people understand that it's easier to capture customers than create them.


A lot of poor people are choosing fast food because they're working long hours or two jobs, and feel they don't have the time or energy to do a home-cooked meal.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Red Arrow on March 18, 2010, 08:45:45 am
A lot of poor people are choosing fast food because they're working long hours or two jobs, and feel they don't have the time or energy to do a home-cooked meal.

I can't blame them but it still doesn't help their health any.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on March 18, 2010, 08:49:31 am
(http://trumptyte.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/f-McDonalds-Car-2715.jpg)


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on March 18, 2010, 09:22:01 am
I can't blame them but it still doesn't help their health any.

Or provide support for other forms development in the area. 

I would hazard to guess that even the unemployed in that area rely on fast food offerings over home cooking. 


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Dana431 on March 18, 2010, 09:23:00 am
(http://trumptyte.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/f-McDonalds-Car-2715.jpg)

Holy Crap!  I saw this car in Troy, Alabama back in December.  I never thought I would see it again!  How funny...


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacks fan on March 18, 2010, 09:43:29 am
Holy Crap!  I saw this car in Troy, Alabama back in December.  I never thought I would see it again!  How funny...

Check out http://www.youdrivewhat.com/ (http://www.youdrivewhat.com/) and you will see more of these.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hawkins on March 18, 2010, 11:17:51 am
Swake, thanks for the citation.  


I call BS on the armed robbery being any sort of a problem.  An employee was killed by a gunman during an armed robbery at the former Albertson's at 41st & Peoria about ten years ago and there have been countless armed robberies of various grocery stores and people robbed in parking lots and yet those stores remain robust and solvent.



That Homeland at 91st & Memorial shut down pretty quick after that concealed-carry shooting of an armed robber.

Its a Panera Bread, and Oliveto Restaurant now.

--

But, if this store isn't selling Pepsi products, the guy is isn't giving it a fair shake.



Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on March 18, 2010, 11:24:51 am
That Homeland at 91st & Memorial shut down pretty quick after that concealed-carry shooting of an armed robber.

Its a Panera Bread, and Oliveto Restaurant now.

--

But, if this store isn't selling Pepsi products, the guy is isn't giving it a fair shake.



Homeland shut down a lot of area stores over the last decade or so.  I doubt the robbery there had a whole lot, if anything, to do with it closing. 


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: TheArtist on March 18, 2010, 12:53:33 pm
As for Mc Donalds etc. being the problem for bad food choices,,, I dont buy that either.  I have been to the Mc Donalds up there several times and tried to order what I usually get in south Tulsa.... for instance... Grilled chicken sandwich on wheat with no mayo and an unsweetened tea.  Its very healthy imo and there are other healthy food options at fast food places to boot.  But every time I order that there they make me pull over to the side for they dont have any grilled chicken out or ready (they say they have crispy) and often I find after I have driven off that I got sweet tea instead of unsweetened and if I get adamant about it, find they have to make it special too.

This reinforces to me the studies I have seen where even if you give lower income people the option to choose for FREE between healthy choices or junk food, they predominantly choose the junk food option over the healthy.  Put out wheat bread and white on a free buffett.... they pick the white, etc.  The chicken sandwich at Mc Donalds costs the same grilled or crispy, but apparently they choose the crispy.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on March 18, 2010, 01:51:40 pm
The grilled chicken at McDonald's is healthy if you don't take into consideration all the crap they put into it during the processing.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on March 18, 2010, 01:57:24 pm
There are 460 calories in 1 serving of McDonald's Crispy Chicken Classic Sandwich.
 Calorie breakdown: 47% fat, 42% carbs, 11% protein.
 Calculated Weight Watchers® points: 11 points.
 Estimated Net Carbs (non-fiber carbs): 44g.


There are 370 calories in 1 serving of McDonald's Premium Grilled Chicken Classic Sandwich.
 Calorie breakdown: 11% fat, 54% carbs, 35% protein.
 Calculated Weight Watchers® points: 7 points.
 Estimated Net Carbs (non-fiber carbs): 47g.

Didn't find the option to switch to wheat or remove mayo

There are 230 calories in 1 serving of McDonald's Sweet Tea (Large).
 Calorie breakdown: 0% fat, 100% carbs, 0% protein.
 Calculated Weight Watchers® points: 5 points.
 Estimated Net Carbs (non-fiber carbs): 53g.

There are 0 calories in 1 serving of McDonald's Iced Tea (Large).
 Calorie breakdown: 0% fat, 100% carbs, 0% protein.
 Calculated Weight Watchers® points: 0 points.
 Estimated Net Carbs (non-fiber carbs): 1g.




Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on March 18, 2010, 02:20:08 pm
The grilled chicken at McDonald's is healthy if you don't take into consideration all the crap they put into it during the processing.

I thought the crap went in the river before the processing?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: patric on June 30, 2014, 09:20:33 am
They have been pretty much shoplifted out of business, so they are throwing in the towel.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on June 30, 2014, 09:22:30 am
They have been pretty much shoplifted out of business, so they are throwing in the towel.


Las Americas?  Is that what is still there?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on June 30, 2014, 09:26:02 am
They have been pretty much shoplifted out of business, so they are throwing in the towel.


If you don’t want your community to be under-served, quit stealing from those who try to improve your lot in life.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on June 30, 2014, 11:15:00 am
Any reaction from Henderson?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Red Arrow on June 30, 2014, 11:37:03 am
If you don’t want your community to be under-served, quit stealing from those who try to improve your lot in life.

That seems to be a difficult concept for some folks.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on June 30, 2014, 12:08:06 pm
Any reaction from Henderson?

“Buncha damn racists and racism.  That’s by-golly what this is!"


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: guido911 on July 01, 2014, 12:44:47 am
Here's an actual link and an actual story about this.

http://www.fox23.com/news/news/grocery-store-north-tulsa-close/ngWyP/


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 01, 2014, 01:39:02 am
So from that article he lost $100k to $150k per year on this store. While I agree that a business like a grocery store, depending on sales, will have a hard time surviving with those kinds of losses. My question is, and I know that it was pointed out they were shop lifted to death, why were they losing that much in an area that is underserved? In earlier posts I brought up that they were not selling recognized national brands, and were carrying Hispanic oriented brands, had higher prices than Warehouse Market, and that might be pushing away potential customers, and there were posts about this store being robbed shortly after opening, and posts about the fact that low income tend to buy fast food on an as needed basis instead of buying staples and eating at home. So what was the root cause?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 01, 2014, 05:20:29 am
I tried shopping there. I went in ten times or more. My kids go to school nearby.

It was a poor customer experience. Most of the store was empty aisles of bare shelves. They had a few basics and not much more.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: hello on July 01, 2014, 07:55:50 am
The owner can blame shoplifting all he wants but it was a sorry excuse for a grocery store. I went one time due to it being the closest grocery store to Brady Heights and vowed never to go again, ever. The shelves were bare, no name brand food and the loaf of bread we got (that I checked the expiration date on to verify it wasn't old) had bugs in it when we opened the package at home.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: hello on July 01, 2014, 07:56:35 am
The owner can blame shoplifting all he wants but it was a sorry excuse for a grocery store. I went one time due to it being the closest grocery store to Brady Heights and vowed never to go again, ever. The shelves were bare, little to no name brand food and the loaf of bread we got (that I checked the expiration date on to verify it wasn't old) had bugs in it when we opened the package at home.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: AquaMan on July 01, 2014, 09:11:37 am
Thank you. I asked 4 co workers who shopped there why they thought it was closing. Two women, two men. Two black, two white. All agreed that from the beginning, before the two robberies and any shoplifting, the prices were way too high, the shelves often bare and, most importantly to them, the meat was sketchy and expensive. Those criticisms alone are enough to sink any grocery store, much less one trying to take business from Warehouse mkt., nearby Sav-a-lot and Reasors at 15th.

I don't think people who post here are aware of the massive amounts of pilferage occurring at retail stores all over the city. Office Depot at 15th had amazing shrinkage to be located in such a wealthy demographic.

Nonetheless, I find it ludicrous that some northside leaders think having Black ownership will make any difference if they don't do any better than Perez did.



Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: swake on July 01, 2014, 09:20:44 am
Isn't most shoplifting done by employees?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 01, 2014, 09:48:17 am
Thank you. I asked 4 co workers who shopped there why they thought it was closing. Two women, two men. Two black, two white. All agreed that from the beginning, before the two robberies and any shoplifting, the prices were way too high, the shelves often bare and, most importantly to them, the meat was sketchy and expensive. Those criticisms alone are enough to sink any grocery store, much less one trying to take business from Warehouse mkt., nearby Sav-a-lot and Reasors at 15th.

I don't think people who post here are aware of the massive amounts of pilferage occurring at retail stores all over the city. Office Depot at 15th had amazing shrinkage to be located in such a wealthy demographic.

Nonetheless, I find it ludicrous that some northside leaders think having Black ownership will make any difference if they don't do any better than Perez did.



Interesting because Perez seems to do well at Admiral and Lewis and I never noticed bare shelves there.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: patric on July 01, 2014, 11:18:35 am
Nonetheless, I find it ludicrous that some northside leaders think having Black ownership will make any difference if they don't do any better than Perez did.

I thought this sound bite rather odd:
“You can make money in this community with a store. Mr. Perez tried it and he tried it his way,” said Jack Henderson, a Tulsa city councilor.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 01, 2014, 11:36:40 am
I thought this sound bite rather odd:
“You can make money in this community with a store. Mr. Perez tried it and he tried it his way,” said Jack Henderson, a Tulsa city councilor.

So Henderson is accusing Perez of Burger King-ing it.

Is Henderson throwing his hat in the grocer's ring?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: AquaMan on July 01, 2014, 12:07:15 pm
Interesting because Perez seems to do well at Admiral and Lewis and I never noticed bare shelves there.
Hard to compare the two. Los mercados isn't it? Much smaller and targeted to Hispanics.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: DTowner on July 01, 2014, 01:44:52 pm
Interesting because Perez seems to do well at Admiral and Lewis and I never noticed bare shelves there.

I never shopped here, so I can't dispute the negative experiences of those who did.  However, I frequently shop at Las Americas at Admiral and Lewis and it is well-stocked (with lots of "American" name brands") and seems competitatively priced.

If a national chain and a local chain failed in this location, odds don't seem good for one-store operation to make it no matter the race of the owners.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 01, 2014, 01:56:55 pm
IIRC when Albertsons closed this store it was part of their withdrawal from Oklahoma and the restructuring they wede going thru. It just seems odd to me that the current owner can make it in another location but not here. There are plenty of regional and smaller owned stores that have survived longer in areas worse (perception, not recent knowledge) than this location without suffering the losses that happened at this store.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 01, 2014, 02:06:53 pm
Warehouse Market seems good at understanding their clientele and they have thrived in low income areas including a location in Turley so it’s not like north Tulsa is an anathema to them.  I’ve even noticed at their 3rd & Lewis location they have more offerings which appeal to the Hispanics living in the immediate area.

I’m curious why they were not approached about taking over the Pine & Peoria location. Perhaps they will now, it seems like a good fit for them.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: DTowner on July 01, 2014, 02:36:02 pm
I wonder if part of the problem with this location is that it was built on the scale/design of Albertson's more suburban stores.  While Albertson's pulled out of Oklahoma, nearly all of its other stores were grabbed up by other grocery store chains except for this one.  Perhaps it is too big and too expensive to operate in the geographic/social-economic area in which it serves.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 01, 2014, 02:38:49 pm
Warehouse Market seems good at understanding their clientele and they have thrived in low income areas including a location in Turley so it’s not like north Tulsa is an anathema to them.  I’ve even noticed at their 3rd & Lewis location they have more offerings which appeal to the Hispanics living in the immediate area.

I’m curious why they were not approached about taking over the Pine & Peoria location. Perhaps they will now, it seems like a good fit for them.

That's what I think the issue is. In Phoenix the WM equivalent is Food City which I think is owned by the local parent company Basha's and they do quite well in low income areas and don't seem to have the losses experienced here. They offer good products and prices. This place kind of reminds me of the Price Mart I think it was that was in the old Belscott location on Admiral & 73rd E Ave. Had lots of product but always seemed to be just before expiration date and ground beef that was gray under the surface.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 01, 2014, 02:40:26 pm
I wonder if part of the problem with this location is that it was built on the scale/design of Albertson's more suburban stores.  While Albertson's pulled out of Oklahoma, nearly all of its other stores were grabbed up by other grocery store chains except for this one.  Perhaps it is too big and too expensive to operate in the geographic/social-economic area in which it serves.

Very valid point. If it was smaller it.might have been successful.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on July 01, 2014, 03:24:49 pm
Very valid point. If it was smaller it.might have been successful.

Perhaps a percentage of that community works elsewhere, and much like me, finds the convenience of stopping at the store close to work an easier option.  Granted I only work about 3 miles from my home, but I'm willing to bet many of the resident's of North Tulsa have a far longer commute than I do.

When I studied marketing demographics in college, one of the important patterns was represented by access to grocery and general merchandise close to office and other labor centers.  Grocery stores close to office buildings see a big boom at 5pm as people are attracted by the ability to stop for groceries and avoid traffic. 

My wife is a stay-at-home mom, but she works one day a week at the university on 41st and Yale.  She stops at Reasor's up there every time before coming home, because it's more convenient than picking up the kids and carting them to one of the zillion grocery stores near our house.

I bet many of the working folks in North Tulsa shop near their place of employment on a more regular basis than they would if there was a grocery store around the block from their home.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 01, 2014, 03:43:44 pm


I bet many of the working folks in North Tulsa shop near their place of employment on a more regular basis than they would if there was a grocery store around the block from their home.

Or as posted earlier about their proclivity for fast food, at the McDonalds just to the south.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2014, 07:29:13 am
Or as posted earlier about their proclivity for fast food, at the McDonalds just to the south.

That is quite the spot. My partner in BBQ lives right there.  That is probably the busiest McDonald's in Tulsa.  It also has a much larger parking lot than most McD's.  It's obvious that they knew their demographic when they built it.  Of course you can use your EBT at McDonalds as easy as you can at the grocery store, so the choice is easy.  Sonic followed suit, building one of the largest Sonic units just up the street.  You can use your EBT card at every stall and there is typically no need for the food runners to carry much cash.

It's quite sad, because fast food is a far more expensive option than home cooking, and you can bet that the massive amounts of money that McD's and other QSR chains pull in is extracted from that community forever.  Of course, when you give people money for food, they are far more prone to spend it frivolously and without regard to their own health.  Why you can use an EBT for anything other than groceries, I will never understand.

Imagine, how many grocery stores would be in that area if EBT purchases were limited to healthy grocery store options?  When you become a ward of the state, by choice or by chance, the support the state gives you should be restricted to only those things that will help you to survive in a healthy manner, and encourage you to attain luxury, vice, and other (lesser) activities through your own individual and productive means. If you want the deep fried cheesecake balls at Sonic, you should come up with your own money for that poison.  Sucks that I have to pay for them, and then pay again to treat your diabetes.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3912/14534808056_27199c5f44_n.jpg)


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: rdj on July 02, 2014, 07:29:40 am
I wonder if part of the problem with this location is that it was built on the scale/design of Albertson's more suburban stores.  While Albertson's pulled out of Oklahoma, nearly all of its other stores were grabbed up by other grocery store chains except for this one.  Perhaps it is too big and too expensive to operate in the geographic/social-economic area in which it serves.

As a resident of the area I would say this was a big driver behind the issue.  They attempted to fill the entire space initially and it just didn't work.  About 18 months ago they partitioned the store in about half and tried it at that size.  Still just didn't work.  Shelves weren't really stocked with lots of open space.  It is a shoplifter's dream the way it is laid out.

The building needs a major facelift on the interior and exterior.  It isn't inviting.  It is way too big.  In my humble opinion the area needs several smaller grocers that also offer pre-packaged meals.  If you visit the Family Dollar at Pine and MLK or the Braum's at Gilcrease & 412 you will find a line at all times with customers buying grocery products.  As much as we'd all like to eat fresh food, the economic demographics of the area make that tough.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 07:58:18 am
That is quite the spot. My partner in BBQ lives right there.  That is probably the busiest McDonald's in Tulsa.  It also has a much larger parking lot than most McD's.  It's obvious that they knew their demographic when they built it.  Of course you can use your EBT at McDonalds as easy as you can at the grocery store, so the choice is easy.  Sonic followed suit, building one of the largest Sonic units just up the street.  You can use your EBT card at every stall and there is typically no need for the food runners to carry much cash.

It's quite sad, because fast food is a far more expensive option than home cooking, and you can bet that the massive amounts of money that McD's and other QSR chains pull in is extracted from that community forever.  Of course, when you give people money for food, they are far more prone to spend it frivolously and without regard to their own health.  Why you can use an EBT for anything other than groceries, I will never understand.

Imagine, how many grocery stores would be in that area if EBT purchases were limited to healthy grocery store options?  When you become a ward of the state, by choice or by chance, the support the state gives you should be restricted to only those things that will help you to survive in a healthy manner, and encourage you to attain luxury, vice, and other (lesser) activities through your own individual and productive means. If you want the deep fried cheesecake balls at Sonic, you should come up with your own money for that poison.  Sucks that I have to pay for them, and then pay again to treat your diabetes.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3912/14534808056_27199c5f44_n.jpg)


It's crazy, EBT is not supposed to be able to buy "hot food". 

However, USDA site says; 

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligible-food-items (http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligible-food-items)

Quote
Since the current definition of food is a specific part of the Act, any change to this definition would require action by a member of Congress. Several times in the history of SNAP, Congress had considered placing limits on the types of food that could be purchased with program benefits. However, they concluded that designating foods as luxury or non-nutritious would be administratively costly and burdensome.

At least tell Sonic/McD's/etc.  "you can't take these cards".


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2014, 08:41:04 am
And also not allow their use at convenience stores.  I was shocked a few years back when I found out Red Bull was EBT eligible.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2014, 09:36:40 am
It's crazy, EBT is not supposed to be able to buy "hot food". 

However, USDA site says; 

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligible-food-items (http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligible-food-items)

At least tell Sonic/McD's/etc.  "you can't take these cards".


Buuut. . .that would be restricting access to food!


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: TeeDub on July 02, 2014, 09:48:51 am
EBT are typically sorted into two general categories:
Food and Cash benefits.

Food benefits are federally authorized benefits that can be used only to purchase food and non-alcoholic beverages. Food benefits, formerly called Food Stamps, are now called SNAP [Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program].
Food Stamp benefits can only be used to purchase food items authorized by the USDA's SNAP program. These include chewing gum, pastries, desserts, and snack foods.

Cash benefits include State General Assistance, TANF (Temporary Aid for Needy Families) benefits and refugee benefits.
Cash benefits may be used to purchase any item at a participating retailer, as well as to obtain cash-back or make a cash withdrawal from a participating ATM.

Here is an article about Jack in the Box.   http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Clearing-the-air-Does-Jack-in-the-Box-really-5578566.php


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: DTowner on July 02, 2014, 09:58:01 am
EBT and SNAP (the new name for Food Stamps) are not one and the same.  EBT is simply the equivalent of a debit card account through which recipeints' various benefits are deposited and spent.  EBT usually contains monies received under SNAP and TANF (Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, the successor to AFDC), and other cash assistance programs.  SNAP/food stamp benefits are still ineligible for use for prepared foods, restaurant meals and other types of items (liquor/cigarettes, etc.).  Presumably, the EBT system permits only a recipients' cash benefits for purchases at places such as McDonalds and would deny the transaction if the EBT account had no TANF or other cash assistance benefits left in it, but had SNAP monies available.  I say "presumably," because that requires a lot of faith in the same government and its contractors that brought us the Obamacare website rollout and IRS email, etc., fiascos.

On a related note, for years the idea has been pushed to limit the types of foods SNAP reciepients could acquire with those benefits so that junk foods, etc. would be prohibited.  The idea has both practical and political problems.  Practically, it is hard to define "junk food" in a way that is useful and manageable at the point of sale.  Politically, the SNAP program falls under the Agriculture Committees in both the U.S. House and Senate.  Needless to say, the food company/grocery lobbyist push back very hard on any attempts to exclude any categories of food (when I worked on Capitol Hill I sat through a lot of meetings with those lobbyist on this very issue).  Finally, as a philosophocial matter, an argument can be made that it is paternistic to dictate what foods reciepients can buy and that we should let recilpients make their own decisions and live with the consequences (although Gaspar's point about paying for the health care costs of bad decisions is a good counter point).



Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2014, 10:14:51 am
I can provide a little more detail since I actually sell ERP systems for POS environments.  All EBT transactions are driven and reported via the POS system's integrated processor (FirstData, Heartland, ect.). The system views the transaction as a debit card transaction. The processor is required to make available (typically through web portal access) information on all EBT purchases to the USDA (who's local office just happens to be down the hall from mine).  If the USDA chooses to review data for a particular retailer, they have the following columns of information available. Card#| Location | Date | Time | Total Transaction Amount.  Basically the same data you have on a credit card recept.

They do not have line-item access to purchases because processors do not have line-item access (I won't even get into the PCI compliance aspect).  It is up to the USDA & FNS to investigate and enforce SNAP/EBT restrictions.  If you have a EBT account and there is a balance on the account, you can go buy a box of tacos.  You can go buy a 64oz blizzard blast.  The retailer has the right to restrict you, but at an automated Sonic terminal, I strongly doubt that EVER happens. 


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: DTowner on July 02, 2014, 10:45:56 am
I can provide a little more detail since I actually sell ERP systems for POS environments.  All EBT transactions are driven and reported via the POS system's integrated processor (FirstData, Heartland, ect.). The system views the transaction as a debit card transaction. The processor is required to make available (typically through web portal access) information on all EBT purchases to the USDA (who's local office just happens to be down the hall from mine).  If the USDA chooses to review data for a particular retailer, they have the following columns of information available. Card#| Location | Date | Time | Total Transaction Amount.  Basically the same data you have on a credit card recept.

They do not have line-item access to purchases because processors do not have line-item access (I won't even get into the PCI compliance aspect).  It is up to the USDA & FNS to investigate and enforce SNAP/EBT restrictions.  If you have a EBT account and there is a balance on the account, you can go buy a box of tacos.  You can go buy a 64oz blizzard blast.  The retailer has the right to restrict you, but at an automated Sonic terminal, I strongly doubt that EVER happens. 

As I feared.  A surprisingly large part of our welfare system operates on the "honor system."  Even worse, states administer SNAP and get reimbursed for the administrative costs by the Feds.  Because it is federally paid benefit $, states have historically had very high error rates and had little financial incentive to correct those errors.  Efforts were made back in the 1990s to impose penalties, but that only lasted until states were actually assessed large financial penalties for their errors and complained to their Congressional delegations.

The USDA Inspector General's office investigates food stamp fraud, but they are usually years behind the offenders techniques and way too small to monitor a program handing out billions of $ a year.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 11:08:58 am
Buuut. . .that would be restricting access to food!

So do fences.

McDonald's should not be allowed to be categorized as "food".


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 02, 2014, 11:39:31 am
As I feared.  A surprisingly large part of our welfare system operates on the "honor system."  Even worse, states administer SNAP and get reimbursed for the administrative costs by the Feds.  Because it is federally paid benefit $, states have historically had very high error rates and had little financial incentive to correct those errors.  Efforts were made back in the 1990s to impose penalties, but that only lasted until states were actually assessed large financial penalties for their errors and complained to their Congressional delegations.

The USDA Inspector General's office investigates food stamp fraud, but they are usually years behind the offenders techniques and way too small to monitor a program handing out billions of $ a year.


IIRC Arizona does not allow any food that is prepared and sold to be purchased with a SNAP card. You could go to Papa Murphy's and buy a pizza because it's not cooked on premise, but you can't got to Papa John's and buy one. The only work around is if you were to go to Albertson's you can't get a rotisserie chicken in the deli, but you can once they put it in the cold case as a marked down. Same if you went to a convenience store, you can't get the hot dog off the roller, but you can get a cold prepackaged sandwich.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2014, 11:40:23 am
So do fences.

McDonald's should not be allowed to be categorized as "food".

But you can't do that!  That would be like saying an IUD is not a form of birth control. ;)


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 11:44:17 am
But you can't do that!  That would be like saying an IUD is not a form of birth control. ;)

Abortifacient.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2014, 11:46:47 am
Abortifacient.

I agree.  That is what McDonald's food is.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 11:55:55 am
I agree.  That is what McDonald's food is.

Well...it prob provides the "100% beef" in the hamburgers and the "chicken" nuggets.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 02, 2014, 12:02:09 pm
Well...it prob provides the "100% beef" in the hamburgers and the "chicken" nuggets.

Then what is, dare I ask, in a McRib?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 12:06:25 pm
Then what is, dare I ask, in a McRib?

I just googled that.  I recommend you don't.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 02, 2014, 12:28:09 pm
I just googled that.  I recommend you don't.

Took your advice and didn't. I've only had one, and that was in 1986 or 1987.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: DolfanBob on July 02, 2014, 12:37:45 pm
I just googled that.  I recommend you don't.

Goes to prove the human stomach can handle almost anything.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 12:44:42 pm
Goes to prove the human stomach can handle almost anything.

I think some of the McRib is human stomach


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2014, 12:57:07 pm
Then what is, dare I ask, in a McRib?

I’m pretty sure it’s the same stuff in a shltburger.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 12:58:37 pm
I’m pretty sure it’s the same stuff in a shltburger.

I believe that is one of the ingredients in the bun.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2014, 01:00:44 pm
I believe that is one of the ingredients in the bun.

Morbid curiosity made me peek.  34 ingredients in a McDonald’s bun?  Really?  You can make a great bun with 6 ingredients or less.  All ingredients without acronyms.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 01:01:35 pm
Morbid curiosity made me peek.  34 ingredients in a McDonald’s bun?  Really?  You can make a great bun with 6 ingredients or less.  All ingredients without acronyms.

But can your buns stay fresh for 75 years?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 02, 2014, 01:06:36 pm
Morbid curiosity made me peek.  34 ingredients in a McDonald’s bun?  Really?  You can make a great bun with 6 ingredients or less.  All ingredients without acronyms.

Rember the old saying, "Making life better through chemistry"


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2014, 01:26:41 pm
But can your buns stay fresh for 75 years?

They have so far for 48 1/2.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 01:28:46 pm
They have so far for 48 1/2.

I held back the follow up comment.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2014, 01:35:41 pm
I held back the follow up comment.

Something about stinky cheese?


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 01:36:07 pm
Something about stinky cheese?

Meat in the buns


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2014, 01:37:38 pm
Meat in the buns

You force me to rip off your image once again

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5242/5352265976_b48a4da9de.jpg)


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2014, 01:38:10 pm
IIRC Arizona does not allow any food that is prepared and sold to be purchased with a SNAP card. You could go to Papa Murphy's and buy a pizza because it's not cooked on premise, but you can't got to Papa John's and buy one. The only work around is if you were to go to Albertson's you can't get a rotisserie chicken in the deli, but you can once they put it in the cold case as a marked down. Same if you went to a convenience store, you can't get the hot dog off the roller, but you can get a cold prepackaged sandwich.

If you walk into an Arizona convenience store with your EBT card, you can purchase whatever you want, as long as the clerk is willing to sell it to you.  Same with underage folks buying beer, the only difference is that there is a much higher chance that you will get caught selling beer to a minor than selling a hot burrito to a mother with her two kids.

It is in the best interest of the police to enforce drug and alcohol laws because their success is measured by their ability to reduce such crime. However, for the USDA/FNS, the more money that flows through the SNAP program, the more money they receive.  For the retailer, accepting SNAP/EBT for unqualified items is as attractive as it is to the USDA/FNS to ignore it.  Both groups benefit.  It falls on law enforcement to catch fraudulent SNAP and EBT transactions through physical stings, and because it is considered a victimless crime, enforcement is not a very high priority.  



Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 01:40:28 pm
You force me to rip off your image once again

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5242/5352265976_b48a4da9de.jpg)

Love that monkey


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2014, 02:00:21 pm
Love that monkey

That’s what SHE said!


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Townsend on July 02, 2014, 02:03:11 pm
That’s what SHE said!

Just before she took a bite out of it wrapped up in a bun with McRib-wich sauce all over it.


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2014, 02:23:41 pm
(http://cdn.filmschoolrejects.com/images/vomit.jpg)


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: BKDotCom on November 14, 2017, 11:13:23 am
Supermercados Morelos To Open Grocery Store @ Pine & Harvard

http://www.newson6.com/story/36840848/supermercados-morelos-to-open-grocery-store-in-north-tulsa


Title: Re: North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store
Post by: Hoss on November 14, 2017, 12:48:28 pm
Supermercados Morelos To Open Grocery Store @ Pine & Harvard

http://www.newson6.com/story/36840848/supermercados-morelos-to-open-grocery-store-in-north-tulsa

Hey I just drove past that fifteen minutes ago!  I wondered if that was new...