The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

It's possible...

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0809/655026.html

Power play! (hockey terminology)

Well, with big time arenas comes big time expenses and big time BS in negotiating rents.  I hope this is just a ploy because I like the Tallons.  They've done well in this town and done well for this town.  But I can understand why the BOK Center doesn't think it should pay them to stay . . .


-15000 in rent
+25000 from the BOK seat sales
- 9000 for operating expenses at BOK
- - - - -

= Total rent payment of +1,000.  They make $1,000 per game for playing in the BOk center.  Hard to argue that they are paying too much in rent unless I'm REALLY unfamiliar with how renting venues works.  But if the math provided is correct, they are saying the BOk center should pay them MORE per game to play there.

But to make a decision I guess I need to know; where in the hell does the seat money go?  They AVERAGED ~6,000 per game (15% increase since moving to the BOK.  Number caries from 5500 to 7000 depending on the source).  Tickets for the Tallons are not given away either, last time I went I had to spend $20+ each to get in the door.  So they average $120,000 in ticket sales.  The arena takes 85% of that?  I'm not calling BS on the numbers given in the article, I guess I just don't understand the model.

Finally: the AFL failed.  AF2 makes money, AFL lost money.  Why would you want to emulate the AFL model?  I realize it was more "big time,"  but at the end of the day you own a business to make money.

Something doesn't add up, that's for sure.  It sounds like a flimsy business model with only the facts presented and I think everyone agrees that Mr. Primeaux is a savvy businessman, so I'm questioning this unless sponsorship is how you make the profit in AF2.

Not a good climate to be seeking out new sponsors in a new market, I wouldn't think.

Income:
 $25,000 (Premium Seats)
$22,800 (General Admission)
---------
$47,800

Costs:
$15,000 (rent)
$9,000 (utilities)
--------
$24,000

So they make $23,800 + sponsorships, proceeds from concessions and souvenir sales. That right?

I have no interest in going next year if they are going to raise the prices in order to keep them in Tulsa.   It is already an overpriced experience as it is..   

I didn't see any mention of raising prices..

You know you are right...  I must of misinterpreted one of the articles that I had read..  But I still stand beside that it is still overpriced..

Never been to major league sports I gather....

St Louis Blues hockey game (seat two rows from the glass, two years ago)...$110.

My Tulsa Oilers season tickets (granted that they are minor league in the truest sense of the word): $689 (stupid $2 fee per game included)/32 games = $21.53

Buy those same tickets at walkup?  $30.00 plus fees.

Solution:  don't go.  Someone else will.  They're supporting local sports.

 ;D

Thanks, but I have been to many Major League Sporting Events.  But why would you compare an AFL2 game to a Major League outing.  One could compare Talons, Oilers, and Drillers to each other.  Although, I usually find tickets for Oilers for around ten dollars, Drillers generally you can get in for free, but Talons are generally 17+ for a ticket.  So I find their pricing a little off-setting for a minor league team. 

I went to six Talons games this year and watched quite a few over Nifty-TV when they where out of town.  But I guess I am not allowed balk at the price as it is contrary to being supportive of local sports. 

Yep.

And this from Channel 8 leaves me dumbfounded....... "The team has been owned by local businessmen Henry Primeaux and Paul Ross and just this year added some outside investors."

What?  How 'bout some journalistic integrity, guys.?  You act as if these "outside investors" were unknown or signed confidentiality agreements.... they didn't.

How 'bout letting your viewers know who these "outside investors" are:

Bill Cameron & David Box... the same people who bought into the Talons after the 2008 season are the ones spearheading the WNBA effort.

Talons add owner, look to become af2's home
By MIKE BROWN World Sports Writer
Published: 5/7/2009
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=223&articleid=20090507_223_b5_michae314250


So.... in May they're bidding to become the headquarters of the league.... this month,  they're threatening to go to San Antonio....

Somebody's got some 'splainin' to do.

The plot gets thicker......

Talons future in Tulsa uncertain
By MIKE STRAIN and MIKE BROWN World Sports Writers
Published: 9/1/2009
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=250&articleid=20090901_407_0_TeTlaT330673

Ross said if the Talons rise from a developmental league to a higher profile league with cities like Orlando, Phoenix and Chicago, the team would have to pay more to operate.

If that's not possible in Tulsa, the team could be sold or relocate, possibly to San Antonio, where the Talons own the rights to expand. That's not Ross' preference.

"Let's try to build this thing and move Tulsa up," Ross said. "But I can't sit there and double the cost on a budget to play with the big cities and compete when I can't even get basic sponsors that other cities have in their pocket."

Read between the lines...

The Tulsa Talons are moving to Texas where they have already agreed to a better offer.

But their plan is to act frustrated for a couple of weeks so people here don't hate them when they leave.

You're missing the larger picture though.  $17 plus for a ticket when the home team plays exactly 8 games a year is a steal.  They could easily charge more for that.  The Oilers play 32 games a year at around the same price point (granted the premium seats for the Talons are higher).

"Moving the team" is a bit of a farce.  If they go "up" to the as-of-yet non-existent AFL part II they will replace the entire roster with currently unemployed former AFL players (or at least MOST of the roster).   Those players make salaries for playing as a profession.  AF2 players get a couple hundred bucks a game because they enjoy it, get women, free workouts, or because they are trying to step up (or a combination thereof).   HUGE difference.

"Moving the team" would really be shutting down the Tulsa Talons and starting a new team in San Antonio.  They might have some of the same office people, some coaching, and the ownership will be the same.  But the players, the name, the fans, and everything else will have changed.  Furthermore, they have the rights to start a new team in San Antonio.  So they don't need to "move" the Tulsa team.    Ergo, they aren't "moving" the Tulsa team, they would be shutting it down and starting a new one in San Antonio instead of keeping both teams.

I'm a bit confused on what they are trying to do.  Clearly none of this was supposed to be public and I'm interested to see how it became that way. My guesses:  1) Leveraging a better BOK Center deal.  2) Fishing for a better offer in San Antonio or trying to get a good offer they can accept to start an expansion team or 3) they want to leave Tulsa this is an exit strategy, 4) too crowded for a WNBA team so ditch the Tallons to a "better" market and bring in the WNBA, 5) leverage lower costs for having both the WNBA and the Tallons under a single user agreement.

Why would you play up your city as the possible host for the AF2 office, brag about being the most successful AF2 team, and then pack up and move?  What changed?  IS the opportunity to be "big time" and lose money in a new AFL too much to pass on?  Clearly there is some angle from the ownership.  It's a business so I'm not faulting them for it.  I'm certainly disappointed, but I understand it's a game to make money.

I hope they stay.  If they left it would be a blow to Tulsa IMHO.  I think it would sting more because they aren't a failing venture, they just want to go to perceived greener pastures.  Come on guys, run both teams!
- - -

Per ticket prices:  it's a bit expensive for me.  I go to a few games, but for my family to go to a game I will plan on spending $100 (~$70 on tickets, $30 on crap).  It's a lot of fun, but that's an expensive night at a minor league game.    Then again, the $60,000 they are looking for in a discount would be akin to raising the ticket price about $1 per game (8 games, ~6000 per game).  That additional $1 wouldn't change my mind about going to a couple games a year and I doubt it would for many people at all.

Still my question:  they only get $22,000 from the ticket sales, where does that money go (6000 x $20 = $120,000 per game)?   If the venue gets $15,000, + concessions, + $100,000 from ticket sales, + the team pays for operating costs . . .it seems kinda crazy.  Someone/I need to look into it more.

SOMEONE volunteer to do a TULSANOW "Investigation" into it for the front page!

Well, I have to admit it is hard to argue with a good economic point.  But because I am hard headed I think we need to compare the ticket prices with other AFL2 teams.  I am curious if we are on the top of the price list or the lowest..   But you have made a good point..   

Talons Investor: We'll Play In Tulsa Next Year
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0909/655710.html
posted 09/02/09 4:15 pm

Tulsa - An investor with the Tulsa Talons tells NewsChannel 8 the team will play in Tulsa at the BOK Center next year.

Michael Johnson says team officials had positive and constructive conversations with the BOK Center and the City of Tulsa and says both sides are working on a joint announcement.

It comes after NewsChannel 8 first broke the story Monday night that the Talons were possibly considering a move to San Antonio to be a part of a restructured indoor football league after team ownership became unhappy with a new lease agreement proposal they received from the downtown BOK Center.

San Antonio had been the home of an Arena Football League franchise before the league suspended operations this past season, then folded.

The Talons are the winningest franchise in the history of AF2, having won 134 games in ten seasons. Tulsa also owns two ArenaCup championships, winning in 2003 and again in 2007.

Phew! Close call...

This is what I don't understand.  The Talons knew the rent structure when they agreed to play in the BOK, now they are unhappy with it??  Why did they sign the agreement in the first place then if they are being forced to pay above-market rent here in Tulsa.

Ross was on the radio w/ Joe Kelley and Rick Couri this morning saying the rent was above what teams were paying in similar markets.

I believe the story is that the BOK was negotiating a NEW rent agreement with them at the same time the talons were exploring options to change leagues (thus draw in larger attendance in theory). Since the BOK gets a % of concessions, in theory you could negotiate a lower base rate for higher attendance events.