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Talk About Tulsa => Other Tulsa Discussion => Topic started by: Wilbur on July 22, 2009, 04:56:48 pm



Title: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: Wilbur on July 22, 2009, 04:56:48 pm
Come on, dude.  Police receive a 911 call that someone is breaking into a house.  Depending on who you believe, the 'burglars' refuse and/or comply with identifying themselves.  Someone gets arrested. 

Sounds like both sides over-reacted to me.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/21/massachusetts.harvard.professor.arrested/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534203,00.html



Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: Michael71 on July 22, 2009, 10:07:25 pm
See following post from moderator.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=13901.0


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: TUalum0982 on July 23, 2009, 06:19:54 am
the guy might be book smart, but he is lacking in the common sense dept.  All he had to do was show his ID to verify who he was.  He did not comply with the officers orders therefore brought this mess upon himself.

The officer was responding to a reportedly "black man trying to bust in through the front door".  The officer was just doing his job.  Let's reverse the roles, and say the officer just took the man for his word, an hour later they get another call saying the house has been completely ransacked.  What would this professor say then?  He would still probably grumble about racial profiling because the officer didnt do enough to check on the situation the first time.  It was a lose lose situation from the beginning it sounds like.

On the other hand, the officer could have done some things differently too.  He could have gave the professor his name and badge #, and then again asked for the gentlemans ID, but he didnt.  Hindsight is 20/20, but most of the blame should be on the professor who could have avoided this situation by simply taking 10-30 seconds out of his day to show his ID in the first place.


Can't wait to see what ol Al Sharpton has to say about this!!  Damn that man gets around, was in LA most of last month dealing with the MJ "tragedy" and now this....I bet he gets alot of frequent flyer miles!
 


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: Hoss on July 23, 2009, 06:30:18 am
the guy might be book smart, but he is lacking in the common sense dept.  All he had to do was show his ID to verify who he was.  He did not comply with the officers orders therefore brought this mess upon himself....snip...
 

Hmmm...not how I heard it.  I heard he DID show them his ID that had the address on it and they still hauled him down.  But that could be inaccurate.  Even the President alluded to such in his press conference last night.  One would hope at least HE had the correct information before speaking.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: TUalum0982 on July 23, 2009, 06:45:02 am
Hmmm...not how I heard it.  I heard he DID show them his ID that had the address on it and they still hauled him down.  But that could be inaccurate.  Even the President alluded to such in his press conference last night.  One would hope at least HE had the correct information before speaking.

the article I read said that after being asked for his ID, he refused, and started asking for the officers name and badge #.  He eventually gave the officer his ID, and then from how I understood it "things escalated outside" and the professor started screaming, hollering, and "causing a scene".  Once again, it all could have been avoided if he had just shown his ID, acted like a adult, and explained the situation to the officer.

Reading the accounts of each person, of course the professor is going to say he complied immediately.  I wasn't there so I have no idea who is right and wrong, but the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of each account.  I have a hard time believing the officer would make up this story on his police report though. 


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: Hoss on July 23, 2009, 07:32:08 am
the article I read said that after being asked for his ID, he refused, and started asking for the officers name and badge #.  He eventually gave the officer his ID, and then from how I understood it "things escalated outside" and the professor started screaming, hollering, and "causing a scene".  Once again, it all could have been avoided if he had just shown his ID, acted like a adult, and explained the situation to the officer.

Reading the accounts of each person, of course the professor is going to say he complied immediately.  I wasn't there so I have no idea who is right and wrong, but the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of each account.  I have a hard time believing the officer would make up this story on his police report though. 


Hmm...you HAVE been following the OHP case, right?  I think some of that may be a fabrication.

 ;D


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 23, 2009, 07:33:59 am
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of the two reports.  I'm sure the cop was very unkind to start with (thinking this was a burglar) and I'm sure the prof didn't think he had to show an ID to be at his own damn house.  A stalemate of sorts.

Apparently the prof did then show his ID and got belligerent.  Being a highly regarded professional he should have been able to control himself and act mature about it - thanked the cop for checking on his property (even if he thought it was profiling).  Then the cop puffed up and had to assert his authority, so he arrested the guy.  Being a highly regarded professional he should have been able to control himself and act mature about it - just leave the scene sorry he harassed a guy at his own house (even if justified).

Plenty of blame.  But at the end of the day the officer is the one with training on handling tense situations.  He should have been in control and realized arresting a man at his own home for the "crime" of being disorderly is a bad idea.  Tie break goes to the citizen.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: Mike 01Hawk on July 23, 2009, 07:36:41 am
Officer isn't apologizing.  And rightfully so.  Check out the vid.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/cop_who_arrested_gates_not_sorry_072209


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: TUalum0982 on July 23, 2009, 07:44:42 am
Hmm...you HAVE been following the OHP case, right?  I think some of that may be a fabrication.

 ;D

I am sure that is a rhetorical question...but after reading yet another article, the professor says if he had to do it all over again, he wouldn't have changed a thing.  The article goes on to state that when asked for ID, he showed a Harvard ID, which I doubt has his address on it.  None the less, all this professor had to do was show his ID when the officer asked for it, end of story. 

If this officer asked a white person to show his ID to verify that he in fact does live in this house, and does not comply, I would expect the officer to do the same thing if the person starts getting loud, and making an donkey out of himself. 

And regarding the trooper situation, this specific trooper has a history of having a temper problem and going on a power trip (my guess is he was picked on in school and was somewhat of a dork, but thats just me).  I wonder if this particular officer has any type of history regarding a short temper or any type of "racial profiling".


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 23, 2009, 08:25:51 am
My post was not meant to imply that this incident was one of racial profiling.  I don't see anything in the behavior that indicates the officer would have treated a white person he thought to be a thief any different than this black man.  Perhaps the profiling aspect should be on the neighbors who called the police upon seeing a black man "breaking in" to his own house?


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: custosnox on July 23, 2009, 08:58:45 am
Perhaps the profiling aspect should be on the neighbors who called the police upon seeing a black man "breaking in" to his own house?
I had thought the same thing for a moment, then stepped back and would hope they would call in regardless of race if they saw someone with a bag on a porch shouldering in a door at night.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: TUalum0982 on July 23, 2009, 09:17:13 am
My post was not meant to imply that this incident was one of racial profiling.  I don't see anything in the behavior that indicates the officer would have treated a white person he thought to be a thief any different than this black man.  Perhaps the profiling aspect should be on the neighbors who called the police upon seeing a black man "breaking in" to his own house?

his neighbors knew he was out of the country and I am sure just keeping tabs on his house while he was gone.  I would hope my neighbors would do the same thing, no matter the color of the person trying to get through the front door.  Not to mention, if I remember correctly, this all took place during the nighttime hours? Can someone correct me if I am wrong?


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: custosnox on July 23, 2009, 09:46:21 am
That was my understanding.  However, looking it over, It doesn't say


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: FOTD on July 23, 2009, 11:21:37 am
No greedy Wall Street Welfare Billionaire is going to be arrested for successfully breaking into his own house ...


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: Wilbur on July 23, 2009, 12:15:58 pm
A couple things:

One report I read said Gates started off being belligerent, then handed the officer a Harvard faculty ID, which of course, did not have his home address on it.  When the officer asked for a second ID (to confirm he did live there), things really went down hill.

I'm confident the officer would have done the same thing if the 'suspect' had been a different race, or would like to think so.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: Mike 01Hawk on July 23, 2009, 12:32:55 pm
Lengthy radio interview with Sargent Jim Crowley
http://audio.weei.com/m/25432556/stg-james-crowley-cambridge-police.htm


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: FOTD on July 23, 2009, 01:29:07 pm
For decades upon decades, we have heard the likes of the NRA say that a man's home is his castle and that he has a right to shoot an intruder.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: TUalum0982 on July 23, 2009, 07:22:58 pm
USA Today is reporting that Sgt Crowley (the white officer involved) "is an expert in profiling and was hand picked by a black police commissioner to teach recruits about avoiding racial profiling."

The article goes on to state that Cambridge police commissioner Robert Haas said the decorated officer "followed procedure and is a stellar member of this dept".

Everything I have read depicts this officer as a class act.  Why this guy would lie about the situation that transpired is beyond me.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think the professor could have handled things differently and pulled the race card from the beginning.  IMO, if he had shown his picture ID that had his address on it, and cooperated in the first place, this never would have happened.



Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: tulsa_fan on July 23, 2009, 08:32:13 pm
I agree, a lot more information is coming out in favor of the officer and reflecting poorly on Mr. Gates.  I was also every disappointed to hear Obama's comments last night as well. . . to say, i don't know all the details, and then say the police department acted stupidly . . . really disappointing.   First, he admited he didn't know all the details and really is this a presidential issue ? ? ? 


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: rwarn17588 on July 24, 2009, 07:37:04 am
Regardless of whether Gates was acting like a grump or not, it shows really poor judgment to arrest a noncriminal in his own house simply because he was yelling or being rude to you. I think the description of "stupid" most certainly applies here.

I'm starting to think that the ultra-vague charge of disorderly conduct shouldn't even be on the books anymore. Even a police chief that I talked to said that such a charge is horsesh-t, and he strongly discouraged his officers from ever using it.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: custosnox on July 24, 2009, 08:04:40 am
if what I intepret from the officers statement is correct, then Gates was being more then just a "grump" or being "rude".  He was causing a very large scene.  While arresting him on disorderly charges might have been a bit much, sometimes the situation might call for an overnighter to end the conflict.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: rwarn17588 on July 24, 2009, 08:49:37 am
if what I intepret from the officers statement is correct, then Gates was being more then just a "grump" or being "rude".  He was causing a very large scene.  While arresting him on disorderly charges might have been a bit much, sometimes the situation might call for an overnighter to end the conflict.

Baloney.

Causing a scene in your own house? Are you kidding? Do you honestly think there's good cause to arrest, say, a couple that's having a loud argument in their own home? Because that's where you're going.

Again, I find very little justification for this arrest, other than Gates p*ssed off the cop for some reason. That sure as hell isn't a good enough reason to arrest and charge anyone. And it's pretty damned telling about the viability of the charges that they were dropped.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: custosnox on July 24, 2009, 09:15:34 am
From what I got of the story, Gates followed the officer to his car (or at least onto the porch), continuing to disturb the peace.  So at this point, they were no longer IN his home, which is what your argument is based on. 

Also, if this hadn't become a media extravaganza, the charges most likely would not have been dropped, though the judge most likely would have deemed it time served, since it is a minor charge.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: rwarn17588 on July 24, 2009, 09:46:09 am
From what I got of the story, Gates followed the officer to his car (or at least onto the porch), continuing to disturb the peace.  So at this point, they were no longer IN his home, which is what your argument is based on. 

Also, if this hadn't become a media extravaganza, the charges most likely would not have been dropped, though the judge most likely would have deemed it time served, since it is a minor charge.

But "disturbing the peace" is entirely subjective -- especially when it occurs on your own property. Gates was probably no louder than the guy driving by with a 500-watt subwoofer. Arguments happen in and on private property all the time with no repercussions.

I very much doubt the charges would have stuck, regardless. Disorderly conduct charges seldom do, mainly because they're on extremely shaky ground legally.

As the chief told me, disorderly conduct charges are little more than a highly dubious tool used by cops who are p*ssed at someone else. That's a lousy reason to arrest someone.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: custosnox on July 24, 2009, 10:03:17 am
But "disturbing the peace" is entirely subjective -- especially when it occurs on your own property. Gates was probably no louder than the guy driving by with a 500-watt subwoofer. Arguments happen in and on private property all the time with no repercussions.

I very much doubt the charges would have stuck, regardless. Disorderly conduct charges seldom do, mainly because they're on extremely shaky ground legally.

As the chief told me, disorderly conduct charges are little more than a highly dubious tool used by cops who are p*ssed at someone else. That's a lousy reason to arrest someone.

First off, I did say already that I think that the charge, from what I know of the situation, that making the arrest was a bit more then the situation called for.  However, I was not there, nor have enough information on the situation to make a viable opinion on it. 

I'm not sure what department your cheif friend is over, but to claim that a law is nothing more then a tool for the police to use for a personal vendetta apparantly has a problem with his officers using it as such, but does not mean that is how the law stands across the nation.  It exists as law for those who are causing a disturbance, as it seems to have been the situation here.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: patric on July 24, 2009, 11:47:29 am
I'm not sure what department your cheif friend is over, but to claim that a law is nothing more then a tool for the police to use for a personal vendetta apparantly has a problem with his officers using it as such, but does not mean that is how the law stands across the nation.  It exists as law for those who are causing a disturbance, as it seems to have been the situation here.

It, like "public drunk", "resisting arrest", and "interfering" may have legitimate uses in certain circumstances, but their frequency of abuse outweigh those to the point where it is considered a red flag when an officer has a high number of such arrests.
I dont know if such is the case here, but I understand it is a concern:

George DeAngelis, a former assistant chief in the El Paso Police Department with 28 years experience, said many police departments have come up with systems for monitoring officers -- not just the public complaints lodged against them but also the types of arrests they make.

Management and supervisors need to watch officers who make high numbers of arrests for certain types of arrests, such as public intoxicaiton, resisting arrest and assault on a peace officer, he said.

"Officers who have a high incidence of being assaulted or being resisted," DeAngelis said. "That could be an indication of the contempt-of-cop situations in which they are reacting emotionally instead of rationally.

"When an officer has a record of those kinds of arrests, they really need to look at what's going on in his personal life"
(Expert: Officer displayed 'contempt of cop' reaction.  newspapertree.com)


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: custosnox on July 24, 2009, 12:06:07 pm
The laws exist to protect, unfortunatly they are too often abused to harrass.  To say they don't have a ligitiment excuse would be absurd, and we don't know if this use was truelly ligitiment or not. Hopefully time will tell the details. 


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: patric on August 16, 2019, 05:38:32 pm

Drew Diamond: I used to be the police chief, and I say Tulsa must confront and eliminate racially biased policing; here's how to start

The ongoing efforts to confront and eliminate racially biased policing in Tulsa are often impeded by the inability of our elected officials to understand police behavior.


https://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/columnists/drew-diamond-i-used-to-be-the-police-chief-and/article_86828359-1a93-5d83-adb9-b7c1743105bb.html



Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: Conan71 on August 18, 2019, 11:44:53 am
Drew Diamond: I used to be the police chief, and I say Tulsa must confront and eliminate racially biased policing; here's how to start

The ongoing efforts to confront and eliminate racially biased policing in Tulsa are often impeded by the inability of our elected officials to understand police behavior.


https://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/columnists/drew-diamond-i-used-to-be-the-police-chief-and/article_86828359-1a93-5d83-adb9-b7c1743105bb.html



That would be Drew "We don't have a gang problem" Diamond, former police chief of Tulsa.


Title: Re: Racial Profiling? Really?
Post by: patric on August 18, 2019, 03:13:25 pm
That would be Drew "We don't have a gang problem" Diamond, former police chief of Tulsa.

I remember the tactic of starving perpetrators of the oxygen of publicity (sort of like what New Zealand is doing with mass shooters) but Diamond might also have been the last Tulsa Police chief to put the welfare of the citizens before that of the union.