The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

It looks like they just installed some "speed limit 60" signs on the Rogers Turnpike entering Oklahoma from Missouri near Joplin. One at the state line and one a few miles in. Then a few miles later it goes up to the usual 75. I don't think they were there a few weeks ago, and they definitely weren't there when the google streetview car went through.

When I drove by there was a cop parked 10 feet beyond the sign, another down the road with somebody stopped and a motorcycle cop clocking folks from the overpass.

It's not a work zone (it starts several miles farther into the state, and the speed limit was 75 in the work zone when I drove through). There are no exits nearby. The traffic there is pretty light.

I cannot fathom one possible reason for this drastic speed limit change other than to make more money. The speed limit is 65 on 244 in Tulsa, but only 60 in BFE on the turnpike.

Anybody have any info on this? Seems awfully shady to lower the speed limit that much, and dangerous, too.

Recent accidents???  Trying to raise money to cover the inevitable lawsuit settlement involving the Creek Nation paramedic?

Lowering the speed limit 10 mph (from Missouri's 70 mph) and 15 mph from the rest of the turnpike is going to cause in accident itself.

I had to brake drastically from 75 down to 60 when I saw that cop sitting right behind the speed limit sign, especially given there was no advance warning that the speed limit was dropping. Luckily no cars were behind me. But in heavy traffic, with a cop right there and everybody slowing waaaaay down, that's dangerous.

Is this going thru a city limits?

Id' be interested in an explanation for that.  Previously lawsuits have held that it is illegal to enforce a "construction zone" speed limit when there is not really a construction zone (on the reasoning that it is a revenue source only contrary to the intent of the law and that it can endanger workers in actual work zones when people start ignoring them).  I can't come up with a good explanation if the situation is as you describe.

Missouri speed limit sign at 70mph. (http://maps.google.com/maps?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=joplin,+MO&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us&ei=jKhTSr_uE4rEMpPa6ZgF&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1)

First speed limit sign in Oklahoma:  75mph. (http://maps.google.com/maps?source=ig&hl=en&q=joplin,+MO&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=jKhTSr_uE4rEMpPa6ZgF&ll=36.990762,-94.626617&spn=0.092962,0.154324&z=13&layer=c&cbll=36.990677,-94.626674&panoid=lSBUuRCM4uRj6mnGt5c_Fw&cbp=12,268.55,,0,-2.96)

What changed?

The only construction listed on the Will Rogers Turnpike for this summer is: (http://pikepass.com/PDF/Construction%20Projects.pdf)
Will Rogers Turnpike
Mile Post 303-312  (Miami is mile marker 313 counting up towards Joplin)
Pavement rehabilitation project. Traffic is single lane in each
direction from daylight to dark with posted speed limits of 55
miles per hour. Expect delays.
Project should be completed Summer 2009.


But 55mph isn't 60mph and it isn't really near the border.  So that doesn't really help anyway.

It's the turnpike. 

This may be a reaction to the wreck a couple of weeks ago that killed 10 people. 

One of the allegations I heard was that area of the Turnpike was too hilly for the 75mph speed limit.   It was alleged that the truck driver did not have adequate viability due to the hills for the speed he was driving to react before plowing into the cars that were stopped.

Knee jerk reaction in my opinion.   

I like taking drives so I think I'll go check this out for myself.

Why not have separate speed limits for trucks then?  Texas does that.

Seems odd that thousands of trucks pass by there everyday without a problem and millions of trucks have driven that stretch over 50+ years without an incident . . . until this guy.  Also, seem irrelevant in that he apparently did not brake at all.  And on top of all that, many parts of the interstate system are more hilly than that and have speeds of 65+mph.

Typical stupid knee jerk reaction if that is the reason.

If that is the reason, DPS may be thinking it would improve their tarnished image by being responsive.
...sort of making up for their slow response to the initial accident that caused the congestion prior to the secondary, multi-fatality wreck.
...and if that's so, trying to look proactive by lowering the speed limit to ticket people who didnt know they were "speeding" is nothing short of scandalous, but DPS doesnt have to answer to the public anyway.

If that accident is the reason, then it's ridiculous.

If every accident led to a lower speed limit we'd all be driving 10 mph in town and 20 on the interstate by now.

We don't even know how fast that truck was going, and even if he was going 60, he didn't brake, so the carnage probably wouldn't have been much different. The only way to minimize the damage of a truck not braking and hitting parked cars is a 20 mph speed limit. Obviously that's completely ludicrous.

I'd really like to see a study, but it seems like giving tickets everywhere just makes driving more dangerous. I've been on a few out-of-state trips lately where it seemed cops were giving tickets every 10-20 miles (must be the budget shortfall). I'll be driving in congested traffic at 75 mph, a cop is spotted, and everybody brakes heavily, many to the point where they're going 60mph in a 70mph zone. That can't be safe when you're surrounded by traffic.

But then again speeding tickets and road safety have little correlation.

That's because there's a big, new casino right at the Kansas-Missouri-Oklahoma state line (I forget the name of it). Traffic sometimes gets backed up from the interchange on weekends or special concerts, so there's a reason for the drop in the speed limit.

In other words, they're trying to prevent a repeat of what happened near Miami a few weeks ago.

That doesn't explain the westbound speed limit drop. The casino exit is in Missouri. The speed limit, heading west, drops at the state line. You'd be past any traffic when you hit that speed zone. The next exit isn't for 10 or so miles past the state line.

Also, I've never seen any traffic there. Traffic actually seems to get much lighter once you enter Oklahoma, without all that slow Joplin local traffic. I question whether it's worthwhile to lower the speed limit because there's a little congestion 30 minutes a week or whatever it is. Wouldn't some big message boards alerting drivers to congestion a few miles in advance be the better move?

There needs to be a regulation that cars have sensors in them to tell when they are getting to close to a car or stationary object.  Also it should have a sensor to detect when you drift out of your lane and corrects the steering.  Then the speed limits could be much higher without an accident.  Also it would almost eliminate drunk driving as a problem.  It seems like common sense to me. 

Who's gonna foot the cost to put those sensors on the roads?  In the cars?

If you start taking responsibility away from the driver, then who do you start suing when/if people get hurt?  The state?  The manufacturers of sensors?  Yeah, that will go over REAL well.

Driving laws need to be more stringent.  You can't force people to add items on to cars that weren't there to begin with, and if you do, you can't force them to pay for them if the equipment they had when the car was purchased was legal.  The only option is to start mandating driving exams at an age that can be agreed upon by those smarter than I.

Yes, and people do go onto I-44 from the interchange as well as exit it, correct? To assume there wouldn't be a heavily flow of westbound traffic after a show or during a busy weekend is presumptuous, to say the least.

The interchange may be in Missouri, but it's so close to the state line that the difference is meaningless.

they already have this technology in quite a few cars.  Check out Infiniti's lane departure warning system that made its debut I think in 2005.  Also check out dynamic laser cruise control.  It automatically applies the brakes once you reach a certain distance to the car in front of you.  I know BMW has it as an option, as does Mercedes.  My parents have it on their 08 Toyota Avalon limited as well.

Does either ODOT or Turnpike Authority have the authority to alter the speed limit?  I was under the impression that state law sets speed limits by category or type of highway.

I just drove through there a few days ago and they are not only still up, but are permanent signs.
Speed drops just over the state line, then goes up inexplicably a few miles later.
No construction or anything that would give an indication as to why, and apparently no corresponding drop going eastbound.

Didnt see OHP hiding behind a sign, but at the toll plaza there were cruisers in front of the crash barriers (that divide the cash lanes from the pikepass lanes) in both eastbound and westbound lanes, each facing oncoming traffic.  Looked like a disaster waiting to happen.

A classic government "solution" to a problem.

Problem:  trucker fell asleep at the wheel
Result: fatal crash
Solution: Lower the speed limit

Of course, since he was asleep it wouldn't prevent the crash, nor would it prevent him from falling sleep.  And in fact a sudden drop in speed could *cause* accidents as people vaguely familiar with the roadway are accelerating and people watching the signs closely are breaking.  But hey, why should a solution have anything to do with the problem or have have any real reason to address it?

Since the crash happened in the westbound lanes (where the speed limit is unchanged) Im not seeing the connection, either.  Something else may be afoot.

Oh, I thought it was east-bound.  How did I have that backwards for so long?

They now have signs warning you of the lower speed limits ahead, but they're so close to the actual signs that lower the speed limits as to be nearly worthless. And there is no corresponding eastbound speed limit drop. Last time I went through there I saw no cops bringing in revenue in that area.

A couple weeks ago, while driving through that Vinita toll plaza, a trooper was driving the wrong way in the Pike Pass lanes (where the speed limit is 75). He was half on the shoulder and half in the right lane.

I nearly had to change my pants when I spotted him. Luckily I was in the left lane to avoid all the traffic coming and going from the cash lanes. Unless somebody is literally dying, it seems completely ridiculous for troopers to be driving the wrong way down an interstate with a 75 mph speed limit.

After one year, the 60mph signs are still up.
Only the westbound (heading into Oklahoma from MO) lanes, and right before you get to the "welcome to Oklahoma" sign.
There is another 60mph sign a mile or so down, then without warning goes back up to 75mph.

There is absolutely no warning to westbound drivers that the speed limit is about to change, which I believe is a violation of federal law.

It's not impossible, but it's difficult and expensive.  Essentially, you're asking for a car capable of independent operation without human input.  This is the focus of the DARPA Grand Challenge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2AcMnfzpNg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2AcMnfzpNg)

But here's an obvious problem with any independent control system.  What happens if it malfunctions and locks out the human operator?  One rule of thumb says that as we make systems more complicated, we multiply the potential failures.  In fact, in electronics we have what's called 'infant mortality', a high failure rate that diminishes over time and slowly increases again as the systems reach old age.  In order to avoid that, you have to build in system redundancy, which increases cost and complexity once again. 

THis speed trap method is also being practiced in OKC.   From right where I-35 and I-44 meet heading northbound there is a speed limit of 60 mph sign for about a mile.   There are always at least 2 troopers sitting there waiting for you to not slow down.   They are stopping cars going in either direction, north or south. 

A tad O/T, but what are those "don't drive into smoke" (or something like that) signs all about? And "yes", I know what that it means not to drive into smoke.

Brush/grass fires.

So it might appear that these signs are not just some oversight on ODOT's part, but OHP is actively capitalizing on them. 

I was once told (don't remember the source) that the smoke can get dense enough to prevent internal combustion, both yours and your car's.   That's on top of visibility restrictions.

That particular section of turnpike is torn up for construction now, so it will be interesting to see if they get rid of those inconsistent speed limit signs.
P.S.   paid $2.99 /gal for gas in Eureka MO this week, with it $3-twentysomething here.

You mean 3.11 here?  And falling daily?

Separate speed limits are deadly.  Literally.  Plus, stupid.

Those signs date back to the late 60's. Seems farmers like to burn off their crops (it adds carbon to the land I think) and brush in the area just beyond those signs. It created a huge pile-up when the wind shifted and vehicles just kept driving into the smoke even though they couldn't see anything. They couldn't stop the land owners from controlled burns on their land and the area burn easily during windy drought periods, so they simply warned drivers of the danger. You wouldn't think it necessary to warn people to not drive into fog banks, through dense smoke or over cliffs....

They are still valid today.  No matter the source, fire near the turnpike can be an extreme hazard.  Last year and this year I have had to drive through some serious fire events that were at the roadway.  The smoke has ranged from minimal to total eclipse (stopped for this one).

Last three years have had a noticeable increase in fire at the road compared to previous 20 years or so.  When I was young, there were a lot of fires, then seemed to be lull (possibly imaginary) followed by a LOT of fire in the last 3 years.