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Title: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 19, 2009, 09:16:12 am CORRECTED: Not much on this forum about what is going on over there. Today, Britain just summoned Iranian's ambassador:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/19/iran.election.britain/ I know we should not "meddle" in Iran's business (although it's okay if we meddle in Israel's), but isn't the president of the U.S. the leader of the free world? Should he not be at least speaking up for free and honest elections? Updated: Photoshop of the day? (http://infidelsparadise.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/obama-iran.jpg) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 19, 2009, 11:53:20 am Updated: The U.S. House condemns the Iranian crackdown 405-1 (Yep, Ron Paul is the "1"). Obama, voting present.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98TS0H00&show_article=1 Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Townsend on June 19, 2009, 12:42:36 pm Iran is a good example of why religion should have nothing to do with politics.
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 19, 2009, 12:53:06 pm Iran is a good example of why religion should have nothing to do with politics. Politics or government? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Townsend on June 19, 2009, 01:34:47 pm Politics or government? pol⋅i⋅tics /ˈpɒlɪtɪks/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pol-i-tiks] Show IPA –noun (used with a singular or plural verb) the science or art of political government. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Hoss on June 19, 2009, 11:12:02 pm pol⋅i⋅tics /ˈpɒlɪtɪks/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pol-i-tiks] Show IPA –noun (used with a singular or plural verb) the science or art of political government. Harhar! Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 20, 2009, 06:52:57 pm Here's an interesting take on what's going on in Iran and Obama's response:
http://patterico.com/ Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 20, 2009, 07:48:13 pm "interesting take" ::) --- yeah, you sound just like Fox News... more political hackery from right wingnut idealogues..... the same kinda shrill politics that left wing liberals engaged in against Ronald Reagan in the early 80s.....
The era of smoke 'em out/axis of evil "Cowboy Diplomacy" and neoconservative foreign policy is OVER for the foreseeable future. Thank God for that. And even though I liked the John McCain of 2000 and might have even voted for him against Al Gore that year, I am grateful that John "bomb bomb bomb... bomb bomb Iran" McCain is NOT the POTUS. Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg Obama Plays the "McCain as Hothead" Card http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qJu_bkX4SU&NR=1 I'll take wisdom over jingoism any day of the week.... Obama's Ally on Iran Policy: Pat Buchanan posted by John Nichols on 06/20/2009 @ 11:54am http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/444992/obama_s_ally_on_iran_policy_pat_buchanan June 19, 2009 Tiananmen Moments By Patrick J. Buchanan http://www.theamericancause.org/ "It is impossible to believe a denunciation of the regime by Obama will cause it to stay its hand if it believes its power is imperiled. But it is certain that if Obama denounces Tehran, those demonstrators will be portrayed as dupes and agents of America before and after they meet their fate. If standing up and denouncing the Ayatollah and Ahmadinejad from 7,000 miles away is moral heroism, it is moral heroism at other people's expense." Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 20, 2009, 08:10:17 pm "My name is USRufnex and I'm a recovering evangelical....."
"Hi Ruf." Today's reading: Frank Schaeffer Posted: June 20, 2009 01:43 PM The Real Lesson Of Iran -- Beware America's Republican Mullahs http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/the-real-lesson-of-iran_b_218359.html The Republicans are faulting President Obama for not taking a "strong enough stand" in support of the freedom marchers in Iran. Yet if the Republican/Religious Right/Neoconservative agenda had come to full fruition over the last 35 years the Republicans would have plunged America into our own version of the misbegotten theocracy destroying Iran today. I know. As a former Religious Right leader I worked to make America "safe" for "Christian values" and dangerous to everyone else. Thankfully I, and those like me, failed. Had we succeeded America would be another version of Iran. Instead of people like James Dobson and Pat Robertson having become marginalized they'd be sitting in Washington advising whomever was the next Republican president. Instead of environmental protection and new mileage standards for cars there would be new anti-gay laws on the books. What are the real lessons of Iran for the USA? 1) Don't mix religion and politics. 2) Thank God for the separation of church and state. 3) The Republicans are utter hypocrites. Until I got out of the religious right (in the mid-1980s) I was both a leader of the so-called pro-life movement and a part of a Republican Party hate machine masquerading as the moral conscience of America. If the far right of the Republican Party and we of the Religious Right had had our way by now there would be a constitutional amendment and/or laws forcing prayer in schools, disenfranchising gay men and women, banning all abortions under penalty of death, banning gay men and women from serving in the military, launching a neoconservative led and religious right backed holy war against Islam, fixing Israel's borders permanently to incorporate all the land taken in 1967 forever into a "Greater Israel" based on the "fact" that "God gave the Jews" the land "forever," capital punishment would be used routinely to punish a variety of crimes including being gay, civil rights for blacks, women, gays, unions would be in retreat, and -- other than enforcing "morality" - George W. Bush's style of "free market" non-governance would be permanent. Think this is all far fetched? Then you never sat in secret meetings with Pat Robertson or the late Dr. Kennedy -- as I did when I was a religious right leader -- fomenting plans to "bring America back to God." If we'd won America would be a slicker more dangerous version of Iran. Picture America if Sarah Palin was president, both houses of Congress had a deep Republican majority, and the last 30 years of appointments to the Supreme Court had all been far right choices. Picture Fox News as the only TV news with access to the government, and the editors of the New York Times in jail for "treason." The Religious Right has been awash in anti-democratic (even anti-American) religious ideologues for the better part of 40 years. For instance I knew the founders of the so-called dominionist or "reconstruction" wing of our movement personally, people like the late Reverend Rousas John Rushdoony the father of "Christian Reconstructionism" and the modern Christian home school movement. Rushdoony (who I met and talked with many times) believed that interracial marriage, which he referred to as "unequal yoking", should be made illegal. He also opposed "enforced integration", referred to Southern slavery as "benevolent", and said that "some people are by nature slaves". Rushdoony was also a Holocaust denier. And yet his home school materials are a mainstay of the evangelical home school movement to this day! Rushdoony's 1973 opus, The Institutes of Biblical Law, says that fundamentalist Christians must "take control of governments and impose strict biblical law" on America and the world. That would mean the death penalty for "practicing homosexuals." Many evangelical leaders deny holding Reconstructionist beliefs but Beverly and Tim LaHaye (of Concerned Women for Americaand the "Left Behind" novels that glorify religious violence), Donald Wildmon (American Family Association) and the late D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Ministries) -- served alongside Rushdoony on the secretive Coalition for Revival, a group formed in 1981 to "reclaim America for Christ." I went to the early meetings. I first met Tim LaHaye at one such meeting. And what Dobson, Falwell et al were pushing, and what the "tea parties" and Fox News are all about today, is one or another version of the Rushdoony/theocracy version of the Iranian mullahs American-style. When there are tens of thousands of Americans sitting in evangelical churches every Sunday wherein President Obama is vilified as an "abortionist," a "Communist," a "secret Muslim," and even as "the Antichrist," when the former vice president accuses our President of what amounts to treason, all because President Obama won't allow the torture of prisoners in an American version of holy war, all because he has decided it is wise to build bridges of respect to Muslim countries, we've left recognizable political territory and entered the realm of violence-inciting hate and delusion of the kind Iran's "supreme leader" indulges in. Picture the harshest Old Testament laws applied at home and the harshest neoconservative military policy abroad and that would be America if the Republicans had everything they wanted. We'd be in three wars now instead of two - Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran. It would be open season on domestic surveillance. Torture would be legal. Habeas Corpus would be a thing of the past. Women would be in prison for having had abortions. Gay men and women would be hounded and if they were murdered there would be leaders saying they had it coming. The CIA and FBI would be operating inside the USA to crush dissent. Blackwater (and other companies like it) would be taking over more and more military duties and operating internationally as a mercenary death squad. Look at Iran and give thanks that the Republican Party -- the tool of America's mullahs married to the Neocon war mongers -- is in decline and has been rejected by the American people. Work to keep America secular, free and democratic. Stay vigilant. Having failed at the ballot box the Republicans and their far right hate-filled supporters are beginning to foment violence with their crazy anti-Obama talk and hysteria. As Bob Herbert said in his NY Times (June 20) column; "I hope I'm wrong, but I can't help feeling as if the murder at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and the assassination of the abortion doctor in Wichita, Kan., and the slaying of three police officers in Pittsburgh -- all of them right-wing, hate-driven attacks -- were just the beginning and that worse is to come." The battle between oppressive religion and freedom is not over yet-- not in Iran, nor here in America. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Red Arrow on June 20, 2009, 08:16:41 pm "My name is USRufnex and I'm a recovering evangelical....." "Hi Ruf." Ruf, I find it difficult to believe you were ever an evangelical... Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 20, 2009, 08:44:36 pm Assembly of God, followed by Sheridan Christian Center/Victory back in the 80s.
Received the "gift of tongues" at a revival by John Wesley Fletcher (the guy who later introduced Jim Bakker to Jessica Hahn)..... I remember a prophesy from John Wesley Fletcher at that revival that NEVER HAPPENED.... I remember a prophesy in tongues translated by Marilyn Hickey that told us "Ronald Reagan will receive the gift of speaking in tongues by the end of his second term"..... NEVER HAPPENED. I remember in the 70s being forced to watch all those anti-abortion films that never mentioned the painful decisions and problems of the women who had them.... I remember watching propaganda films about the "End Times" featuring hippies and various sundry Episcopalians who were "left behind" .... I remember being told the Catholic Church was the "whore of Babylon" and that the Pope was likely either the anti-Christ or allied with the anti-Christ... I remember being told the rapture would happen in 1976 or 1977.... or '79.... or when the planets align in 1982.... etc, etc, etc... I remember a Medieval History class at Victory Christian School using a book written by the good folks at Liberty Univ teaching us the "evils of secular humanism". I remember being told that we need to boycott and protest the release of the movie version of "The Last Temptation of Christ".... I remember being told that "AIDS was God's judgement upon homosexuals" and that these people would be "wiped out".... Do you believe me now.... or shall I go on? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 20, 2009, 08:52:56 pm The era of smoke 'em out/axis of evil "Cowboy Diplomacy" and neoconservative foreign policy is OVER for the foreseeable future. Thank God for that. And even though I liked the John McCain of 2000 and might have even voted for him against Al Gore that year, I am grateful that John "bomb bomb bomb... bomb bomb Iran" McCain is NOT the POTUS. Oh, the foreign policy that kept us safe after 9/11. Let's see, Obama's foreign policy has given us a North Korea that is threatening to fire a long range missile in Hawaii's direction, has China laughing at Timothy Geithner and carrying billions more of our debt, has allowed FRANCE, freaking surrenderers extraordinaire, shouting the loudest over what is happening in Iran, and an endless "apology to the world" tour. But hey, it's not as if he gave the Queen of England an i-pod as a gift or gave the British PM DVDs that didn't work. Oh, wait. Nevermind. As for the neocon policies, which one would those be that Obama has changed? Rendition? Obama does it. Military tribunals for Gitmo detainees? Obama wants it. Not releasing prisoner abuse photos? Obama refuses. Warrantless wiretaps? Obama is following it. Afghanistan? Obama is sending in more troops. Let's not even get started with other Obama criticisms of Bush that he now follows (signing statements, refusal to publish white house visitor's list, firing of IG's) Here's an article from the notoriously conservative and rabidly right-winged Newsweek: http://www.newsweek.com/id/202875 Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 20, 2009, 09:18:44 pm Kudos to Obama and Clinton for staying out of it. Keep it up!
You're a stooge, Gwee. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 20, 2009, 09:29:47 pm What is the problem with people like Guido and the religious right and the jacknut Republicans like that Patterico guy who DESPISE this president?
Nice avatar, idiot. ::) When have I ever used some crazy caricature of Bush as my avatar? Or Hillary Clinton, for that matter... Dems gave Bush an amazing amount of support and goodwill after 9/11 that continued even after the announcement of the invasion of Iraq-- all this for a Republican president who lost the popular vote in 2000... god forbid you crazy, vengeful, wingnut hack Republicans ever offer the same kind of support to this Democratic president.... Bush's policies have set this president up for failure in foreign policy... what exactly did "axis of evil" and "mission accomplished" do for us in North Korea? Or Iran?.... I fear Obama will not take enough uncompromising decisive actions to change course from the last eight years of failed neocon policies... policies that have made this country LESS SAFE. Bush's pro-active invasion of Iraq (when it was Saudi nationals who attacked this country on 9/11) and turning his back on Al Caida in Afghanistan have pushed Pakistan into political chaos and has served to strengthen the Taliban in both countries. The man's been in office for six months. A lesson from history is that no matter the change in President, foreign policy is rarely completely reversed. Case in point: Vietnam.... http://www.vietnam-war.info/quotes/quotes2.php Ronald Reagan, 1965 "We should declare war on North Vietnam. . . .We could pave the whole country and put parking strips on it, and still be home by Christmas." George McGovern, speech to U.S. Senate, April 25, 1967. "We seem bent upon saving the Vietnamese from Ho Chi Minh, even if we have to kill them and demolish their country to do it....I do not intend to remain silent in the face of what I regard as a policy of madness which, sooner or later, will envelop my son and American youth by the millions for years to come." Lyndon B. Johnson, address to nation, March 31, 1968. "Our objective in South Vietnam has never been the annihilation of the enemy. It has been to bring about a recognition in Hanoi that its objective - taking over the South by force - could not be achieved." Richard M. Nixon, 1969 "Let us understand: North Vietnam cannot defeat or humiliate the United States. Only Americans can do that." Richard Nixon, Oct. 1969 "I'm not going to be the first American president to lose a war." Henry Kissinger, Oct. 1972 "We believe that peace is at hand." Richard Nixon in a letter to President Thieu, Jan. 1973 "You have my assurance that we will respond with full force should the settlement be violated by North Vietnam." Nguyen Van Thieu, April 1975 "If the Americans do not want to support us anymore, let them go, get out! Let them forget their humanitarian promises!" Gerald Ford, April 1975 "Today, America can regain the sense of pride that existed before Vietnam. These events, tragic as they are, portend neither the end of the world nor of America's leadership in the world." Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 20, 2009, 09:38:48 pm Frank Schaeffer, New York Times best selling author, 2009
"When there are tens of thousands of Americans sitting in evangelical churches every Sunday wherein President Obama is vilified as an "abortionist," a "Communist," a "secret Muslim," and even as "the Antichrist," when the former vice president accuses our President of what amounts to treason, all because President Obama won't allow the torture of prisoners in an American version of holy war, all because he has decided it is wise to build bridges of respect to Muslim countries, we've left recognizable political territory and entered the realm of violence-inciting hate and delusion of the kind Iran's "supreme leader" indulges in." Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Rico on June 20, 2009, 09:39:31 pm Aye... the Guido would like a Magic Carpet Ride...
That should just about do it...! No vote needed. A la Bien Guido everyone! (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Persia.jpg) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 20, 2009, 10:00:16 pm Updated: The U.S. House condemns the Iranian crackdown 405-1 (Yep, Ron Paul is the "1"). Obama, voting present. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98TS0H00&show_article=1 What did THAT accomplish? Ron Paul gets it. Heck, even Pat Buchanan gets it... Pat Buchanan June 19, 2009 "If standing up and denouncing the Ayatollah and Ahmadinejad from 7,000 miles away is moral heroism, it is moral heroism at other people's expense." They both understand that this resolution by the House is nothing more than cowardly psuedo-patriotism..... Sat September 29, 2007 Iran's parliament votes to label CIA, U.S. Army 'terrorist' groups http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/29/iran.parliament/index.html Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 21, 2009, 09:54:56 am Since soccerboy completely ignored the substance of my last post, I thought it would be worth reinforcing my point about Obama's "I could give a sh!t" approach to Iran.
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/21/they-killed-neda-but-not-her-voice/comment-page-1/#comments Watch the video and click the pic of the girl dying in the street and compare that to "Ice Cream Night" for Obama and his kids. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Red Arrow on June 21, 2009, 10:14:24 am Do you believe me now.... or shall I go on? You obviously have seen a different light since then. It's difficult to believe that the 80s were already 20 yrs ago. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 21, 2009, 10:38:52 am Since soccerboy completely ignored the substance of my last post, I thought it would be worth reinforcing my point about Obama's "I could give a sh!t" approach to Iran. http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/21/they-killed-neda-but-not-her-voice/comment-page-1/#comments Watch the video and click the pic of the girl dying in the street and compare that to "Ice Cream Night" for Obama and his kids. Michelle Malkin? Yeah, like that's gonna change my mind.... Here's Michael Moore... (http://www.onedigitallife.com/images/bush_book.jpg) 'Fahrenheit 9/11' - My Pet Goat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rO3F6mZUaE Where was your righteous indignation then, freeper boy? Or does it not count when OUR country is under attack? Hypocrite. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 21, 2009, 10:41:37 am Michelle Malkin? Yeah, like that's gonna change my mind.... Here's Michael Moore... 'Fahrenheit 9/11' - My Pet Goat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rO3F6mZUaE Where was your righteous indignation then, freeper boy? Or does it not count when OUR COUNTRY is under attack? Hypocrite. Still ignoring my previous post about your BS neocon crap. You are as big as a coward as Obambi. Oh, and you criticize my sources and in the same breath source Michael Moore? :D Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: we vs us on June 21, 2009, 11:25:31 am Since soccerboy completely ignored the substance of my last post, I thought it would be worth reinforcing my point about Obama's "I could give a sh!t" approach to Iran. http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/21/they-killed-neda-but-not-her-voice/comment-page-1/#comments Watch the video and click the pic of the girl dying in the street and compare that to "Ice Cream Night" for Obama and his kids. Maybe you'd like to elaborate a little on what you'd like our president to do with a country with whom we have no diplomatic relations and who, until very recently, was part of the vaunted Axis of Evil. Aside from issuing a statement like: Quote The Iranian government must understand that the world is watching. We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people. The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected, and the United States stands with all who seek to exercise those rights. As I said in Cairo, suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. The Iranian people will ultimately judge the actions of their own government. If the Iranian government seeks the respect of the international community, it must respect the dignity of its own people and govern through consent, not coercion. Martin Luther King once said - "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." I believe that. The international community believes that. And right now, we are bearing witness to the Iranian peoples' belief in that truth, and we will continue to bear witness. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 21, 2009, 11:33:21 am Quote Still ignoring my previous post about your BS neocon crap. You are as big as a coward as Obambi. Oh, and you criticize my sources and in the same breath source Michael Moore? Like for like. (http://www.progressnowcolorado.org/page/-/malkinrelease1.jpg) You call me a coward? Note to Conservatives: Iran Is Not Eastern Europe -- It's Iran Washington Monthly, June 17, 2009. http://www.alternet.org/blogs/world/140734/note_to_conservatives:_iran_is_not_eastern_europe_--_it%27s_iran/ So, you think Pat Buchanan is a coward?...... and George Will?.... and Peggy Noonan?.... http://thinkprogress.org/2009/06/21/will-iran-foolish-criticism/ GEORGE WILL: The president is being roundly criticized for insufficient, rhetorical support for what’s going on over there. It seems to me foolish criticism. The people on the streets know full well what the American attitude toward the regime is. And they don’t need that reinforced. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124535660563828707.html PEGGY NOONAN: America so often gets Iran wrong. We didn't know when the shah was going to fall, didn't foresee the massive wave that would topple him, didn't know the 1979 revolution would move violently against American citizens, didn't know how to handle the hostage-taking. Last week we didn't know a mass rebellion was coming, and this week we don't know who will emerge the full or partial victor. So modesty and humility seem appropriate stances from which to observe and comment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To insist the American president, in the first days of the rebellion, insert the American government into the drama was shortsighted and mischievous. The ayatollahs were only too eager to demonize the demonstrators as mindless lackeys of the Great Satan Cowboy Uncle Sam, or whatever they call us this week. John McCain and others went quite crazy insisting President Obama declare whose side America was on, as if the world doesn't know whose side America is on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Go back to your little red-state tricycle, you blubbering neocon apologist moron. (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/joeyess/redstate-trike-force.jpg) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 21, 2009, 12:00:09 pm Maybe you'd like to elaborate a little on what you'd like our president to do with a country with whom we have no diplomatic relations and who, until very recently, was part of the vaunted Axis of Evil. Why, take his kids out for ice cream, of course. That pantywaste of a statement, wherein he once again made HIMSELF the issue in referring to his Cairo speech, only came as a result of increasing pressure. Before yesterday, he was quiet because he didn't want to meddle in Iran's affairs--notwithstanding his willingness to meddle in Israel's affairs. As for what I suggest, how about throwing some support in favor of the protesters, how about a "gravely concerned" letter, how about not acknowledging the election results as legitimate? Better yet, think about this. Who once said that the Iranian regime "is a threat to all of us"? Yep, Obama in 2007. I guess Iran is no longer a threat, in Obama's mind. http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/281249,CST-NWS-OBAMA03.article As for you soccerboy, you are officially boring. You refuse to engage in meaningful debate and instead resort to FOTD-style article posting. And your three JOURNALISTS opinions that Obama's course is right, I raise you VP Biden and SoS Clinton: http://www.kansasprogress.com/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/20/james-taranto-in-wsj-obamas-timidity-on-iran-leaves-him-increasingly-isolated/ Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 21, 2009, 12:34:16 pm Why, take his kids out for ice cream, of course. That pantywaste of a statement, wherein he once again made HIMSELF the issue in referring to his Cairo speech, only came as a result of increasing pressure. Before yesterday, he was quiet because he didn't want to meddle in Iran's affairs--notwithstanding his willingness to meddle in Israel's affairs. As for what I suggest, how about throwing some support in favor of the protesters, how about a "gravely concerned" letter, how about not acknowledging the election results as legitimate? Better yet, think about this. Who once said that the Iranian regime "is a threat to all of us"? Yep, Obama in 2007. I guess Iran is no longer a threat, in Obama's mind. http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/281249,CST-NWS-OBAMA03.article As for you soccerboy, you are officially boring. You refuse to engage in meaningful debate and instead resort to FOTD-style article posting. And your three JOURNALISTS opinions that Obama's course is right, I raise you VP Biden and SoS Clinton: http://www.kansasprogress.com/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/20/james-taranto-in-wsj-obamas-timidity-on-iran-leaves-him-increasingly-isolated/ Doe Doe, Numerous educated posters place article links in their comments merely to convey a sense of journalism integrity to back us up. You do that too,sometimes. The difference is that your posts are antagonistic, hateful and mean which provides this forum with contrast. Keep it up. While FOTD is TNF's devil advocate, you are our master baiter. Keep it up! Peas, Friend Of The Devil Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 21, 2009, 12:55:47 pm Protesters chase police. Freakin hilarious:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/2009/06/090621_ag_street_clashes.shtml Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 21, 2009, 02:21:31 pm Guido, you are officially predictable.... Friendly Bear minus the anti-Semitism.
Oh, I forgot... pantywaist right wing neocon apologist koolaid drinkers like yourself don't like journalists..... unless they work for Fox... :P Richard Lugar: US Should Sit Down With Iranian Government Regardless Of Post-Election Turmoil (VIDEO) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/21/richard-lugar-us-should-s_n_218538.html Netanyahu: I Won't Second-Guess Obama On Iran http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/21/netanyahu-i-wont-second-g_n_218544.html Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 21, 2009, 04:57:33 pm Why, take his kids out for ice cream, of course. That pantywaste of a statement, wherein he once again made HIMSELF the issue in referring to his Cairo speech, .................................... As for you soccerboy, you are officially boring. You refuse to engage in meaningful debate and instead resort to FOTD-style article posting. And your three JOURNALISTS opinions that Obama's course is right, I raise you VP Biden and SoS Clinton: http://www.kansasprogress.com/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/20/james-taranto-in-wsj-obamas-timidity-on-iran-leaves-him-increasingly-isolated/ Gee Guido....... how often do you beat your wife? ::) Hmmm. You're quoting James Taranto, who is just making stuff up.... you think Taranto has an agenda?....... WHO DID JAMES TARANTO AND THE NEOCONS SUPPORT IN THE IRANIAN ELECTION? THEY SUPPORTED THE ENEMY!!! THEY SUPPORTED THE DICTATOR!!! THE SAME PEOPLE WHO COMPARED AHMADINEJAD TO HITLER SUPPORT HIM!!! THE SAME NEOCON HYPOCRITS WHO WANT OUR MILITARY TO INVADE IRAN!!! Neocons Rooting For Ahmadinejad To Win http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2UzEZ3oTMQ US/Israeli Neocons Celebrate Ahmadinejad Victory as Iran Burns June 14, 2009 http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/eades/2009/06/usisraeli-neocons-celebrate-ah.php?ref=reccafe Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 21, 2009, 05:48:21 pm Gee Guido....... how often do you beat your wife? ::) Hmmm. You're quoting James Taranto, who is just making stuff up.... you think Taranto has an agenda?....... WHO DID JAMES TARANTO AND THE NEOCONS SUPPORT IN THE IRANIAN ELECTION? THEY SUPPORTED THE ENEMY!!! THEY SUPPORTED THE DICTATOR!!! THE SAME PEOPLE WHO COMPARED AHMADINEJAD TO HITLER SUPPORT HIM!!! THE SAME NEOCON HYPOCRITS WHO WANT OUR MILITARY TO INVADE IRAN!!! Neocons Rooting For Ahmadinejad To Win http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2UzEZ3oTMQ US/Israeli Neocons Celebrate Ahmadinejad Victory as Iran Burns June 14, 2009 http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/eades/2009/06/usisraeli-neocons-celebrate-ah.php?ref=reccafe You call me predictable? How many times have you busted out that stupid "beat your wife" quip? Here's a question, how often do you beat off Oba...oh, nevermind. As for the article, who cares where it came from because the part I was relying upon to prove my point was also in that notoriously right-wing news source, The New York Times: Even while supporting the president’s approach, senior members of the administration, including Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, would like to strike a stronger tone in support of the protesters, administration officials said. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/us/politics/18prexy.html?_r=1 So we have the VP, who was picked because of his (alleged) foreign policy chops and the sec of state wanting a stronger response by Obama. There's also those 405 Congress members that voted to condemn Iran's response. You have Sen. Lugar, Ron Paul, Bibi, and three journos. Got it. Ask yourself a question, why are many of those signs carried by the protesters in English? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 21, 2009, 05:58:33 pm As for you soccerboy, you are officially boring. You refuse to engage in meaningful debate and instead resort to FOTD-style article posting. And your three JOURNALISTS opinions that Obama's course is right, I raise you VP Biden and SoS Clinton: http://www.kansasprogress.com/wordpress/index.php/2009/06/20/james-taranto-in-wsj-obamas-timidity-on-iran-leaves-him-increasingly-isolated/ LOL, "You act like FOTD and just post articles and don't add to the debate, here is an article" Classic Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 21, 2009, 05:58:59 pm For those that have not heard of or seen the "Neda" murder video, here it is in all its horror.
Graphic Video: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0db_1245519048 This young woman is the reason Obama should say something in support of these people demanding the same freedoms we have here. This may be her (pre-execution of course): (http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/06/22/amd_soltani-headshot.jpg) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 21, 2009, 06:13:14 pm BTW, the above is VERY graphic. As soon as Obama starts attacking Iran verbally they will try and turn the whole protesting thing into a US organized protest. Which they already have tried to say. I could see this being the launching point for the invasion of Iran in the future. It is kind of sad when this thing happens in Iran the people protesting are freedom fighters and just crusaders. It happens here on our electronic machines and 98% of the people are just fine with it and the other 2% are "crazy".
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 21, 2009, 07:19:45 pm BTW, the above is VERY graphic. As soon as Obama starts attacking Iran verbally they will try and turn the whole protesting thing into a US organized protest. Which they already have tried to say. I could see this being the launching point for the invasion of Iran in the future. It is kind of sad when this thing happens in Iran the people protesting are freedom fighters and just crusaders. It happens here on our electronic machines and 98% of the people are just fine with it and the other 2% are "crazy". I am not sure I have requested Obama to verbally "attack" the Iranian government, only that he should show support for the protesters. Here is a letter purportedly from Mousavi to Obama wherein he takes Obama to task over his comparing Mousavi to dinner jacket. http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/06/20/sunday-morning-in-iran-a-letter-from-mousavis-office/ Photoshop of the day? (http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm14/backsppace/boicecreamandIran.jpg) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 21, 2009, 08:33:04 pm I am not sure I have requested Obama to verbally "attack" the Iranian government, only that he should show support for the protesters. Here is a letter purportedly from Mousavi to Obama wherein he takes Obama to task over his comparing Mousavi to dinner jacket. http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/06/20/sunday-morning-in-iran-a-letter-from-mousavis-office/ Ok, i get it. You want Obama to officially endorse Mousavi. That should help. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 21, 2009, 09:44:25 pm http://www.legitgov.org/price_us_hypocrisy_iran_210609.html The world's biggest hypocrite and meddlesome nosy parker, the United States, has outdone itself with its reaction to the post-election events in Iran. At least five glaring 'grand hypocrisy' categories have emerged, with more likely on the way. What other country -- having just endured eight years of dictatorship as the result of two stolen elections -- could actually spew outrage over... another nation's 'stolen election?' Gag me with a green chainsaw. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 22, 2009, 07:19:46 am Ok, i get it. You want Obama to officially endorse Mousavi. That should help. Wrong, I want Obama to endorse FREEDOM. Geesh, you are getting as bad as soccerboy in your waist worship of Obama. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Hoss on June 22, 2009, 07:25:03 am Wrong, I want Obama to endorse FREEDOM. Geesh, you are getting as bad as soccerboy in your waist worship of Obama. And you're inversely as bad with your ODS... Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 22, 2009, 08:44:44 am Wrong, I want Obama to endorse FREEDOM. Geesh, you are getting as bad as soccerboy in your waist worship of Obama. There is only part of this that has to do with Obama. This has to do with the United States Government and the amount of involvement the United States wants to appear to have in this. Congress has officially condemned the attacks on the protesters. Obama has already said that the attacks on protesters is wrong, cited some MLK, etc. Why don't you tell us exactly in one sentence what you want Obama to say. While I agree the comments were not exactly "strongly worded" and there may be more to say. What can we do without endorsing the other guy and killing his street cred? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 22, 2009, 04:24:18 pm Wrong, I want Obama to endorse FREEDOM. Geesh, you are getting as bad as soccerboy in your waist worship of Obama. Do you have anything at all to say about the NEOCONS who rooted for Ahmadinejad? Anything at all? Cuz God knows if it were liberals who were rooting for Ahmadinejad before the election, you would call them UNPATRIOTIC, UNAMERICAN ...TRAITORS. Jane Fonda territory.... Waist worship? ::) More like a waste of time posting replies to a cheap FriendlyBear wannabe hack like yourself. What a waste of time talking to someone who's such an absolute IDIOT and HYPOCRITE when it comes to national politics... of course, if Obama had been more forceful, you'd call him a "secret muslim".... damned if you do, damned if you don't.... Obama has shown wisdom, and you and McCain and Lindsay Graham and the neocons have shown partisan foolishness.... yet again. I'm trying to remember being this bitter over George Bush beating Al Gore in an election in which Gore won the popular vote.... nope, it took WMD and Abu Gharib and Katrina and the attempt to privatize social security before I decided Dubya was the worst president of my lifetime (edging Jimmy Carter by a nose)... Did you ever go out to eat this week?.... dinner? a movie? ice cream? horseback riding?.... or did you spend the week obsessed over the elected president of this country who you think is a coward and an idiot? Demanding he start screaming and yelling and beating his chest in self-righteous indignation..... oh wait, where'd I hear that... oh yeah, this morning.... from a REPUBLICAN... Joe Scarborough: Obama’s Critics on Iran are living in an Alternative Universe http://www.politicususa.com/en/Morning-Joe-Iran “I think you could say that the president has not been timid and passive, but he’s actually been restrained…The leaders over there haven’t asked the United States to be more involved, the opposition leaders, they understand that if we have a president who holds a press conference and demands freedom now. This is what surprises me. My good friend Lindsey Graham calls the president weak and tepid. Lindsey should know that anything Lindsey Graham from South Carolina says is going to be used from Ahmadinejad and other Iranian leaders that want to keep these peace marches down.” “These people are doing quite fine without screaming and yelling and beating our chests in self-righteous indignation, and for those Republicans who claim that the world doesn’t know what side we’re on, I would suggest that you are living in an alternative universe, because every student there knows, every student there knows, we are on their side.” “What would John McCain and Lindsey Graham specifically have the president say? All of those people that are emailing in and telling me that I’m being liberal? Oh really? I’m being liberal? No I think it’s called restraint. Showing a little bit of restraint. Looking at the battlefield in front of you and not just running up Pickett’s Charge and getting gunned down. If you want to feel good about yourself — and you can only feel good about yourself by screaming about the evils of Iran — fine do that. But our leaders in Washington don’t need to do that because people will be routed in the street the second they are identified with the United States of America.” Your argument that Obama took his kids out to ice cream while Iran burned is ludicrous. Typical of a conservative, dem-hating, republican pig. BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS. Obama’s Nowruz Message to the Iranian People http://omidforiran.org/obamas-nowruz-message "So in this season of new beginnings I would like to speak clearly to Iran’s leaders. We have serious differences that have grown over time. My administration is now committed to diplomacy that addresses the full range of issues before us, and to pursuing constructive ties among the United States, Iran and the international community. This process will not be advanced by threats. We seek instead engagement that is honest and grounded in mutual respect. You, too, have a choice. The United States wants the Islamic Republic of Iran to take its rightful place in the community of nations. You have that right — but it comes with real responsibilities, and that place cannot be reached through terror or arms, but rather through peaceful actions that demonstrate the true greatness of the Iranian people and civilization. And the measure of that greatness is not the capacity to destroy, it is your demonstrated ability to build and create." --Barack Hussein Obama Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 23, 2009, 11:33:26 am http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1905477,00.html
Robert Baer: Don't Forget Mousavi's Bloody Past By ROBERT BAER Earlier this week, I received an e-mail from a Lebanese who was present at the creation of the country's Iranian-backed, Shi'ite militia Hizballah in 1982 and on familiar terms with its most radical and violent members. He wrote: "Are you people crazy backing Mousavi, a patron of Hizballah's terrorist wing?" Has Rush or O'Reilly made note of this? Or any of the other media types who are pressuring President Obama? What about John McCain. His thoughts on this would be very interesting. You with idealogical rigidity need to realize this is a mere battle between Iranian elitists.... Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 23, 2009, 07:36:13 pm True enough. Mousavi was a handpicked candidate.... the loose equivalent of having Billy Graham or Cardinal Law or Pat Robertson picking acceptable candidates for president before the people are allowed to vote...
The Folly of Attacking Iran: Lessons from History http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJRcOF7rEfQ Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: waterboy on June 24, 2009, 05:58:15 am Which implies a question. Are the Iranian people upset that their vote was a fraud or are they upset that a more radical, violent crazy was not elected? Either way the behavior of leading Republicans has been despicable. They need to follow their own advice, "lead, follow, or get out of the way".
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: cannon_fodder on June 24, 2009, 11:00:43 am It is kind of sad when this thing happens in Iran the people protesting are freedom fighters and just crusaders. It happens here on our electronic machines and 98% of the people are just fine with it and the other 2% are "crazy". The comparison is superficial at best. In the United States the result was within the margin of error of the polls. The discrepancy hinged on several thousand votes with a voter turnout within the expected realm. Results were released continuously and showed no statistical sign of vote rigging. International observers were allowed and they reported minimal discrepancies, the local and international press were free to report and investigate as they saw fit. People were free to protest and rant about it on the internet, not were murdered. Subsequently an INDEPENDENT commission from each state reviewed their results. This could be appealed to the INDEPENDENT Federal Election Commission. Then to the Courts. Following all of that the ballots were made public and anyone who petitioned could, and did, inspect them. The results of that inspection confirmed the determination of the entire process. In Iran: First we start with only candidates approved by the religious authority. While our 2 party system sucks, it at least includes primaries and is WAY better than a one party or "gateway" system. But more to point: The results were 30% inverse to what the polls said. The discrepancy hinges on millions of votes with a reported voter turnout probably 10-20% over what would be likely. The results were released sporadically and had a massive statistical swing in favor of the ruling candidate towards the end. International observers were banned, the local press is government run and international press is banned. Protests have been forbidden and the protests which do take place are frequently met with violence and even murder, though officially only with the threat of imprisonment. The results were reviewed by the ruling candidate. They were appealed to a panel appointed by the ruling candidate. Then to the religious authority who endorse the ruling candidate. The ballots will not be open to inspection by anyone by the ruling candidate and the religious authority. Thus, no independent confirmation of the voting process will be available. Do you see the differences? If the 2004 election came back with GW winning by 30% of the popular vote, which was reviewed by Donald Rumsfield and determined to be fine, then protesters were arrested . . . we'd have a similar situation. Plus, it goes back to the credibility argument. You think everything is a conspiracy. So even if you are eventually right, it won't really matter because no one listens to you. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 24, 2009, 11:10:21 am Either way the behavior of leading Republicans has been despicable. They need to follow their own advice, "lead, follow, or get out of the way". Yeah, McCain was way despicable right here:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp5ApDTfsTM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fhotairpundit.blogspot.com%2F2009%2F06%2Fjohn-mccain-tribute-to-neda-on-senate.html&feature=player_embedded[/youtube] Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 24, 2009, 11:14:51 am Come up with a new torch bearer.
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Gaspar on June 25, 2009, 07:13:11 am Anywhoo. . .
The test continues: Reacting to Obama's comment Tuesday that he is "appalled and outraged" by crackdowns in Iran, Ahmadinejad said, "Mr Obama made a mistake to say those things ... our question is why he fell into this trap and said things that previously Bush used to say." "Do you want to speak with this tone? If that is your stance then what is left to talk about... I hope you avoid interfering in Iran's affairs and express your regret in a way that the Iranian nation is informed of it," Check. . . but we still have all of our knights, bishops and our queen, we've simply moved ourselves into check in a poor attempt to castle. Our bishop is exposed though. So what now? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: cannon_fodder on June 25, 2009, 07:34:41 am SO Obama says nothing and our good friend in Iran says "the American people have no qualms with our handling of these rioters. As the bastion of Democracy and freedom surely they would speak up if they thought we were doing wrong. Even President Obama recognizes Iran's right to justly subdue riots within our borders and uphold our rule of law."
What the "President" of Iran says doesn't make the course of action or any statement any more or any less of a good decision. He has no one in check, for Ahmadinejad insulting the United States and accusing us of some kind of meddling is akin to pushing a pawn. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Gaspar on June 25, 2009, 08:01:47 am I don't think we should have allowed ourselves to be in this position. We have always maintained a stance for freedom. The world looks to us for immediate response and we usually offer the exact same reliable stance. Our words have power and our message should be one of hope and strength.
With our new weak words and mixed intentions we are allowing others to poke us with a stick. They know that eventually we will lash out, but as long as they can poke they elevate their own position in the eyes of others. This is school-yard politics and it should have never been allowed to happen. The very moment that protesters began to be mowed down with machine gun fire, the President should have immediately made a strong statement and issued a warning. Sure this would escalate the protests, but ultimately those who protest for freedom and hope and change are exactly what we want to reward in Iran. They are a threat to everyone around them, as is N. Korea. Weakness on our part now will only guarantee war later. Sorry to sound like a Churchill speech. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 25, 2009, 09:32:53 am Graphic video from yesterday's "massacre" by a country that we do not want to meddle in:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ8L-9QQazI[/youtube] Time to get some more ice cream, I guess. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 25, 2009, 09:44:09 am Graphic video from yesterday's "massacre" by a country that we do not want to meddle in: Time to get some more ice cream, I guess. Don't bring rocks to a gun fight. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 25, 2009, 09:48:42 am Don't bring rocks to a gun fight. Ain't that the truth. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Nik on June 25, 2009, 10:54:45 am Reza Aslan, an Iranian author, was on the Daily Show last night and said that Obama has handled this perfectly and that McCain's comments, were he president, would end the protests giving the Iranian government victory. I'll trust his words.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=231561&title=Reza-Aslan Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Gaspar on June 25, 2009, 11:15:53 am Reza Aslan, an Iranian author, was on the Daily Show last night and said that Obama has handled this perfectly and that McCain's comments, were he president, would end the protests giving the Iranian government victory. I'll trust his words. http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=231561&title=Reza-Aslan The Daily Show, huh. Well then that settles it. :D Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 25, 2009, 11:33:11 am The Daily Show, huh. Well then that settles it. :D Definitely a step up from the Tulsa Now Forum Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Hoss on June 25, 2009, 11:35:17 am Definitely a step up from the Tulsa Now Forum Yup, especially since it was a real, live Iranian that said it. As opposed to, oh, I don't know...Hannity/Beck/Limpbaugh... Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: cannon_fodder on June 25, 2009, 11:35:28 am Definitely a step up from the Tulsa Now Forum Says the man who has been banned at least twice and KEEPS coming back. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 25, 2009, 12:51:49 pm Says the man who has been banned at least twice and KEEPS coming back. Heh, FOTD resents this remark! Got a thing against us outlaws, CF? Just think if we would have listened to men like Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Surely civilians deaths would have occured which would have pulled the Iranian people closer to their government and probably pre-empted this new movement in Iran and nullified it before ever being concieved by these injustices. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Nik on June 25, 2009, 02:36:59 pm I know he's not credible at all since he was on the Daily Show, but Mr. Aslan has some more news out of Iran:
Reliable sources in Iran are suggesting that a possible compromise to put an end to the violent uprising that has rocked Iran for the past two weeks may be in the works. I have previously reported that the second most powerful man in Iran, Ayatollah Hashemi Rafsanjani, the head of the Assembly of Experts (the body with the power to choose and dismiss the Supreme Leader) is in the city of Qom--the country's religious center--trying to rally enough votes from his fellow Assembly members to remove the current Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei from power. News out of Iran suggests that he may be succeeding. At the very least, it seems he may have gained enough support from the clerical establishment to force a compromise from Khamenei, one that would entail a run-off election between Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his main reformist rival Mir Hossein Mousavi. http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-25/a-deal-to-save-iran/ Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Breadburner on June 25, 2009, 02:40:53 pm Heh, FOTD resents this remark! Got a thing against us outlaws, CF? Just think if we would have listened to men like Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Surely civilians deaths would have occured which would have pulled the Iranian people closer to their government and probably pre-empted this new movement in Iran and nullified it before ever being concieved by these injustices. Outlaws have balls...You have none...... Substitute dilusional coward for outlaw and you might be onto something..... Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 25, 2009, 03:09:50 pm Outlaws have balls...You have none...... Substitute dilusional coward for outlaw and you might be onto something..... It was my ballsy posts that got me evicted, sucker puncher ingnoranus. Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an a$$hole Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Gaspar on June 25, 2009, 03:33:08 pm It was my ballsy posts that got me evicted, sucker puncher ingnoranus. Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an a$$hole I thought it was profanity, name calling, generally threatening behavior that got you banned? But thank God you're back now, all reformed and productive. Your compatriots on this forum were beginning to show a real capacity to discuss topics without being "aided" by the devil. You are gifted at reducing what would normally be a subtle ideological difference into an honest expression of the most liberal view of a topic. I think that helps your fellow travelers identify their political positions as representative of your example, or not. I always look forward to Monday mornings when I can sort through FOTD posts and determine the quantity and quality of the cannabinoid flowing into our fine city. You are a beacon and an example sir. I for one believe that banning the devil would be a sin. I appreciate you. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 25, 2009, 03:53:33 pm Thanks. But this demon is just channeling the devil.
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 26, 2009, 11:08:37 am I don't think we should have allowed ourselves to be in this position. We have always maintained a stance for freedom. The world looks to us for immediate response and we usually offer the exact same reliable stance. Our words have power and our message should be one of hope and strength. ................................ Weakness on our part now will only guarantee war later. Sorry to sound like a Churchill speech. That's your problem. And our problem. Those who don't know their history will be doomed to repeat it. Winston Churchill never cared about the Iranian people; Churchill cared about oil. And Jimmy Carter continued American foreign policy and supported the Shah of Iran dictatorship........ Here's some Reagan koolaid for you... http://www.hulu.com/watch/40598/historic-campaign-ads-iran-reagan-1980 And here's Reagan in his debate with Jimmy Carter at his NAIVE WORST. Instead of speaking out against a propped up dictator (the Shah), he said this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Ae5FRHH0k We as a nation have had DECADES to stand up for Iranian democracy.... but we didn't. American muslims and muslim international students who study here have been frustrated by an American middle east policy that they see as bought and paid for by AIPAC. AIPAC Considered One of Top US Lobbies May/June 1991 http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0591/9105015.htm A bitter legacy The Guardian, Friday 30 March 2007 http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/mar/30/iran.world This anti-British sentiment is shared by ordinary Iranians. Its resonance defies boundaries of age, education, social class or political affiliation. In the eyes of a broad cross-section of the population, Britain - as much, or even more than, the US - is the real enemy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In 1901, William Knox D'Arcy, a London-based lawyer and businessman, was granted exploration rights in most of Iran's oil fields for the princely sum of £20,000. It took several years for D'Arcy's investment to bear fruit but when it did - after he struck oil in Masjid-e Suleiman in 1908 - its effect was enduring and fateful. It turned out to be the world's largest oil field to date and a year later, D'Arcy's concession was merged into the Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC). In 1913, with war clouds gathering in Europe, the British admiralty - under Winston Churchill - discarded coal in favour of oil to power its battleships. To safeguard the decision, the government bought a 51% stake in APOC. The importance of oil - and Iran - in British imperial expansion was now explicit. It was a priority of which Churchill, for one, would never lose sight. For the next four decades, the oil company and Britain remained close to the heart of Iranian political and economic life and became twin sources of burning national resentment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meanwhile, anger over the arrogant behaviour of the now-renamed Anglo-Iranian Oil Company - it later became BP - was leading inevitably to a fateful confrontation between Britain and Iran. Resentment over Iran's paltry share of company profits had festered for years. In 1947, out of an annual profit of £40m, Iran received just £7m. Iranian anger was further fuelled by the treatment of oil-company workers who were restricted to low-paid menial jobs and kept in squalid living conditions, in contrast to the luxury in which their British masters lived. Attempts at persuading the oil company to give Iran a bigger share of the profits and its workers a fairer deal proved fruitless. The result was a standoff that created conditions ripe for a nationalist revolt. Into this ferment walked Mohammad Mossadegh, a lawyer and leftwing secular nationalist politician fated to go down as perhaps Iranian history's biggest martyr before British perfidy. Mossadegh was elected prime minister in 1951 advocating a straightforward solution to the oil question - nationalisation. It was a goal he carried out with single-minded zeal while lambasting the British imperialists in tones redolent of a later Iranian leader, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Within months, he had ordered the Iranian state to take over the oil company and expelled its British management and workers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The oil company's executives were clamouring for a coup to overthrow Mossadegh. Attlee rebuffed the idea but when a Conservative government took office in October 1951, led by Churchill, it fell on more sympathetic ears. With British power in decline, however, Churchill was unable to mount such a venture alone. American help would be needed. The result was Operation Ajax, a CIA-MI6 putsch that co-opted a loose coalition of monarchists, nationalist generals, conservative mullahs and street thugs to overthrow Mossadegh. With the economy teetering in the face of the British blockade, Mossadegh was ousted after several days of violent street clashes. The shah, at that time a weak figure, had fled to Rome fearing the coup would fail. When he heard the news of Mossadegh's demise, he responded: "I knew they loved me." He subsequently returned to install a brutally repressive regime - maintained in power by the notorious Savak secret police -backed to the hilt by both America and Britain for the next 25 years. ---------------------------------------------- Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 26, 2009, 02:56:40 pm Iranian government forces Neda's dad to tell people on state TV that the protesters killed Neda.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzViMjQ0NDUxODhhYzRkYjRiMjQ3ZTk2ZjFiODJlMDU= I sure am glad Obama canceled hot dog day with those jacka$$es. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 26, 2009, 05:28:58 pm And I sure am glad we didn't have neocons and the Bush administration playing into the Iranian government's hands with more "axis of evil" rhetoric. :P
Night of the living neocons The shameless fools whose Iraq folly empowered Iran's hard-liners are back, smearing Obama as an appeaser By Gary Kamiya (http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/06/18/neocons_iran/md_horiz.jpg) http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/06/18/neocons_iran/ That these neoconservative pundits have the gall to talk about Iran at all, let alone pose as defenders of the Iranian people, would be stunning if it were not so familiar. For it was their own policies that were largely responsible for the rise of the hard-liners in Iran. As Islam expert Malise Ruthven notes in an essay on Iran in the current New York Review of Books, "external factors, driven by U.S. policies, were decisive" in thwarting Iran's nascent democratic movement. And of those U.S. actions, none was more consequential than the very "axis of evil" statement that the neocons are now tumbling over each other to glorify. "George W. Bush's notorious 'axis of evil' speech in January 2002, linking Iran to its enemy Iraq and the maverick Communist republic of North Korea, undermined many of Khatami's achievements in improving Iran's international profile, and convinced the hard-liners that the Islamic Republic would become the next target in Bush's 'war on terror,'" Ruthven writes. "The build-up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq provided them with strong public support. In the local council elections of February 2003 -- one month before the invasion -- conservatives regained nearly all the seats they had lost in 1999 at the peak of the reformist movement. This was not a rigged poll: for unlike the parliamentary and presidential races, candidates for municipal elections are not vetted for 'Islamic suitability.' The right-wing victory was sealed two years later with Ahmadinejad's election as president." In short, the very rhetoric the neocons are now demanding that Obama use backfired disastrously when Bush used it -- which is precisely why Obama has avoided repeating it. And, of course, the entire Iraq war greatly empowered Iran by removing its greatest enemy, Saddam Hussein, and shifting power to Iran's coreligionist Shiites. One of the things the neocons would like the rest of us to forget is that they were the most ardent proponents of invading the very country whose people they now piously claim to support. Back in the heady "Mission Accomplished" days, the neocon slogan was "Wimps go to Baghdad -- real men go to Tehran." Leaving aside the fact that the neocons were a bunch of paper-pushing pundits ensconced in comfy right-wing think tanks who never "went" anywhere that didn't have room service, the point is that they have been burning to attack Iran for years -- an attack that would inevitably result in the slaughter of tens or hundreds of thousands of Iranians. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The success of the March 14 Alliance in Lebanon, a major victory for the U.S., is widely attributed to the "Obama effect." Just one month of U.S. pressure induced Israel's far-right Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to utter the magic words "Palestinian state." And most critically, as David Ignatius noted in an important column in Tuesday's Washington Post, Obama's openness to the Muslim world and more sophisticated presentation of America has empowered the reformers in Iran and throughout the Arab/Muslim world, and diminished the appeal of militant jihadism. The neocons are demanding righteous outrage, and claiming that Obama's failure to deliver it is a sign of cowardice, moral relativism and even anti-Americanism. (Neocon pundit Charles Krauthammer claimed that Obama is displaying a "disturbing ambivalence toward [his] country.") But outrage is not a foreign policy, and their own "moral clarity" resulted in the maiming of an entire country and one of the worst foreign-policy debacles in U.S. history. Instead of mounting their bully pulpit yet again, they should be seeking a confessional. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amen. >:( Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 26, 2009, 09:08:06 pm Soccerboy?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O4IfqKTzOM&feature=fvw[/youtube] Would you please stop with the "neocon" nonsense? Seriously, is everyone that is a Republican or opposes Obama a "neocon"? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 26, 2009, 10:04:04 pm Bozone alert must have been lifted....Gwee DoeDoe returns.
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 27, 2009, 10:06:09 am Bozone alert must have been lifted....Gwee DoeDoe returns. Nope, just having to work a little extra this week, you know, so I can pay more in taxes to offset bottom feeders/miserable failures like yourself. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 27, 2009, 11:19:44 am Nope, just having to work a little extra this week, you know, so I can pay more in taxes to offset bottom feeders/miserable failures like yourself. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aduk1-_nsc0&feature=player_embedded [/youtube] Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 27, 2009, 05:59:20 pm Soccerboy? Would you please stop with the "neocon" nonsense? Seriously, is everyone that is a Republican or opposes Obama a "neocon"? If it walks like a neocon (YOU) and quacks like a neocon (YOU), and consistently quotes neocons (YOU), then it IS a neocon (YOU). "Obama hates freedom." LIE FROM YOU. "Obama is an idiot." ANOTHER LIE FROM YOU. "Obama is a liar." I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I? "Obama is a coward." YET ANOTHER LIE FROM YOU. "Photoshop of the day." NASTY VULGAR LIE FROM YOU. Congrats, GUUIEEEEDOPE. (http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2008/10/10/PH2008101002204.jpg) I've never heard anyone within 6 months of a new president entering office, make such lewd and vulgar characterizations as you, you miserable excuse for a patriot. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 27, 2009, 06:04:42 pm Nope, just having to work a little extra this week, you know, so I can pay more in taxes to offset bottom feeders/miserable failures like yourself. Nope, the wealthy are going to be paying higher taxes because we went back to the slightly more progressive Clinton tax code, a move that doesn't benefit the perverse little social climbers who hide behind their wives' apron strings (the only reason they can claim to make over $250k in the first place)........... perspective is a virtue. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/graph.jpg) (http://nynerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/reaganomics.jpg) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on June 27, 2009, 06:25:33 pm Nope, you're paying more taxes because we went back to the slightly more progressive Clinton tax code, you perverse little social climber... hiding behind your wife's success and apron strings (the only reason "you" can claim to make over $250k)........... perspective is a virtue. Really, when we began in the early 90s we were living in a small apartment, working minimum wage jobs (sound a little like you so far), and in college. WE earned everything we have through years of hard work and sacrifice (Oh, and I do quite well in my own right). Wealth envy is freakin hilarious thing sometimes. Now, I have to take my Bentley to the airport to get on my G-5 and fly to New York for dinner and a show. You? Ramen noodles and a porno? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: FOTD on June 27, 2009, 06:28:04 pm Really, when we began in the early 90s we were living in a small apartment, working minimum wage jobs (sound a little like you so far), and in college. WE earned everything we have through years of hard work and sacrifice (Oh, and I do quite well in my own right). Wealth envy is freakin hilarious thing sometimes. Now, I have to take my Bentley to the airport to get on my G-5 and fly to New York for dinner and a show. You? Ramen noodles and a porno? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Red Arrow on June 28, 2009, 09:43:27 am Now, I have to take my Bentley to the airport to get on my G-5 and fly to New York for dinner and a show. I can get to the airport. Can I hitch a ride on the G5? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: waterboy on June 28, 2009, 10:18:02 am I can get to the airport. Can I hitch a ride on the G5? i'm such a miserable failure I don't even know what a G5 is. :D There's like one or two Bentleys in town. Saw one in the drive thru at Braums. Nouveau riche? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Hoss on June 28, 2009, 10:58:25 am i'm such a miserable failure I don't even know what a G5 is. :D There's like one or two Bentleys in town. Saw one in the drive thru at Braums. Nouveau riche? Gulfstream V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulfstream_V Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: waterboy on June 28, 2009, 12:29:32 pm Gulfstream V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulfstream_V Oh. I flew in a Gulfstream back in the day when only oil companies had such things for their executives. Ate cookies in the cockpit with the pilots. Nice plane. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 29, 2009, 06:39:43 pm Really, when we began in the early 90s we were living in a small apartment, working minimum wage jobs (sound a little like you so far), and in college. WE earned everything we have through years of hard work and sacrifice (Oh, and I do quite well in my own right). Wealth envy is freakin hilarious thing sometimes. Now, I have to take my Bentley to the airport to get on my G-5 and fly to New York for dinner and a show. You? Ramen noodles and a porno? "Wealth envy?" In your dreams. I actually admire wealth and many of the wealthy folks out there. Over the years, I've admired people like Lee Iococca, Sam Walton, Warren Buffet, and that notorious "bundler" for Barack Obama, aka George Kaiser. Do you think it was mere coincidence that Obama and Biden said the words "early childhood education" in each and every debate?!? I don't think so. (but I for one am grateful BOk doesn't stand for "Bank of Kansas" because it certainly could have gone that way back in the bad old days). If it weren't for wealthy people, I would never have been able to afford to go to college. Call it a "public/private partnership" if you want..... thank God my scholarship was for full tuition rather than a mere $$$ amount, because my private-school tuition nearly tripled at my alma mater during the 80s.... college loans were mostly for room-and-board after Pell Grants vanished for me during the Reagan administration. Reagan RAISED MY TAXES at a time when I was least able to afford it. Lost a college loan during the Gramm-Rudman budget cuts.... had to work graveyard shifts while still trying to do all the extracurriculars required for my scholarships. And the jobs I worked in college were, for the most part, at or attached to minimum wage. And minimum wage was stuck on $3.35 per hour from 1981 - 1990. Just like it was stuck from 1997 - 2007. But I didn't pi$$ and moan about it..... not at the time, anyway. I supported George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton's efforts to raise minimum wage in the 90s so LOSERS like yourself could have enough $$$ to buy ramen noodles AND porn. While you were doing all that and a bag o' chips..... I was getting AGMA union wages doing chorus work for Lyric Opera of Chicago, and getting paid to do a local gig singing a lead role in La Boheme with Miss Poland 1987 (who actually had brains and talent, unlike that Carrie Prejean chick), taking day jobs that paid far above the minimum wage so I'd be able to afford voice lessons, earned a scholarship to study bel canto at the Britten-Pears School with a world renowned soprano.... at the time, it was popular for people like me to incorporate their names as a business rather than file the standard personal income tax. Why? Because you could deduct a xxxx-load of "business expenses" that wouldn't have been allowed any other way...... And the large number of wealthy donors and philanthropists I've sung for over the years at opera galas, fundraisers, wine-and-cheese's, etc. have two words to describe people like yourself. In a nutshell.... NEW. MONEY. You know, this country has had a progressive tax code in one form or another since the civil war. You should be grateful for what you have and stop pi$$ing and moaning over Obama taking us back to the Clinton tax code, which is historically closer to a flat tax than all the tax codes under every single American president from 1932 to 1984. /rant. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Conan71 on June 29, 2009, 10:17:56 pm You? Ramen noodles and a porno? sharp today, gwee. Interesting Ruf. It's supposed to be the goal of wealth distribution of creating a class of new money. Once they have made it, now they deserve our scorn because they made too much and bought nice cars, houses, and bought tickets to the opera. Now they are to be lampooned for their success. Glad to know how that works. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: waterboy on June 30, 2009, 06:21:28 am You're not that naive Conan. Been on the planet longer than that. Equalizing wealth distribution doesn't create new classes of money. It plumps up existing classes that are determined more by upbringing than the money itself. IOW, when you dump lottery winnings on an old man from the ghetto, he's now just a rich old man from the ghetto. Same values, same issues, same education. The wealth magnifies those characteristics.
My noting of a guy with a Bentley lined up in the Braums drive thru with Ford Escorts is a local, and not too uncommon, example of nouveau riche. The Lorton's don't do that. These newbies are naturally scorned by classes of people who have lived their entire lives off trust money that their families created. It is the same scorn that working class folk have for the trust funders. They each lampoon each other. The term was coined to describe the gaudy excesses of the Vanderbilts once the Commodore made his fortune destroying those less ruthless than himself. He had been blue collar and tried too hard to match the blue bloods of his time. Plus ca change, plus ca changere. ('scuse my pitiful French). Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: cannon_fodder on June 30, 2009, 07:57:26 am A fool and his money are soon parted. Old money folk can act like jackasses for a couple generations before they piss it away. Their parents earned the right for their children to be asses if they so choose.
Or, they can not be asses and turn their money into REAL money, a la George Kaiser. The guy was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but now it is platinum. And good for him. He has generated a boat load of wealth for thousands of other people in the process. New money people can, of course, also act the fool. More likely than not they have earned their own money, so do with it what you please. In fact, go out and get in legal trouble for me, would ya'? If you made your own fortune or took your father fortune and doubled it, I have a ton of respect for you. If you have a fortune or a trust fund that was left to you and remains stable, you neither gain nor lose my respect. If you work as a mechanic, pay your bills, and are a decent guy - so much the same. It's just money. New, old, or not there (me). You can be a dude with money, or without it. I find it hilarious that people who inherited their fortunes mock people who have worked for theirs. Particularly because the Forbes 500 has more of the latter and the former usually see their fortunes shrinking. Someday I hope to be mocked as "new money." I'm currently mocked as "not money." (as an interesting side note: all the old money families were once new money families. Even here in Tulsa all our great landmarks are named for new money families. Then they turned into old money families and the giving levels dropped way off unless a family trust was established to do it for them. Same way with immigrants. All the "old immigrants" make it hard on the new immigrants. The English hated the Germans, who hated the Irish, who got to fight with the Italians, who could still keep the Asians down, who had a leg up on the Africans, who can now join in the dislike of the Mexicans. Kinda like adding a new kid to the family, you are no longer the youngest brother.) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on June 30, 2009, 05:27:45 pm sharp today, gwee. Interesting Ruf. It's supposed to be the goal of wealth distribution of creating a class of new money. Once they have made it, now they deserve our scorn because they made too much and bought nice cars, houses, and bought tickets to the opera. Now they are to be lampooned for their success. Glad to know how that works. Gee Conan. Cherry pick much? I'm not sure where you're coming from, Cascia boy? Did a previous comment or two about mumsy and dadsy in the past hurt your feelings... ? The only "new money" people who should be "lampooned for their success" are the ones who wear their military service and recently acquired personal wealth on their sleeves.... :P I do not scorn Guido for his money. Guido should be scorned due to his shamelessly partisan obsession with a small increase in the tax rate for monies earned over $250k. A return to the tax structure of the Clinton economy. A blip in the historical tradition we have in AMERICA of a progressive income tax system. (http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/graph.jpg) And he should be scorned for his insistence that he will actively engage in a vain attempt to parlay his "new money" into philanthropic tendencies to be used to punish those people who voted for Barack Obama. I remember running into egos like this in the opera donor world. Trust me, there are plenty of "new money" people out there who are perfectly fine. And plenty of limo-liberals who can be pretty clueless. But Guido reeks of the "new money" stereotype-- folks who insist on using their charitable donations to endorse their own egos and leverage their own biases and personal agendas.... Well, I could actually be of help to dear Guido, even more if I were paid well. :P One freebee for ya: Donate to the Signature Symphony and G. Barry Epperley-- they are local and community oriented (and more likely to have voted for McCain)... then systematically shun any and all fundraisers for the Tulsa Symphony because their group jets in Obama loving instrumentalists from Chicago to fill out their merry little band...... "New money." My use and definition of this term is not to be used to scorn the hard work that made others successful. It is a recognition of the oftentimes narrow-minded focus and lack of humility from those who've recently come into their own and amassed their own fortunes. After singing for one of those private opera donor get togethers back in the day, I had the wife of a university president confide in me that she was frustrated at being stuck in the "middle class." Kinda funny at the time, because she had a chauffeur, a chef, a housekeeper and a butler..... it was easier to empathize with her, only after realizing that she had to keep all that "hired help" due to the importance of "keeping up appearances," which in turn keeps money flowing into the university's endowment and the building fund, etc, etc. It's always easier to build buildings and endow chairs than it is to raise funds for operational expenses.... I met an oil company vice-president who was fascinated by my artistic struggles-- I tried to ask him about what he did, he would have none of it; a few months later, I met a chair of the district Met Auditions who insisted upon interrupting my conversation with my grand-dad to make it clear how IMPORTANT he was to the city of Tulsa.... And so it goes... Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: waterboy on June 30, 2009, 08:27:47 pm We've all been exposed to new money folks I suppose. I met plenty when I was selling real estate when Reagan came to office. A young debutante I was showing around kept name dropping to impress me. She made it clear that she wanted a home near Harwelden where she was soon to be married. (Wasted on me as I didn't know what a Harwelden was.) On one memorable trip where they wanted to see some Maple Ridge homes (they were income qualified), she pointed to one of the old homes and sniffed "that's where the Jones' live. They do their own yardwork you know. Can you imagine?"
At that time most of the big homes around in MR were owned by plumbing, electrical and carpentry contractors as they were the only ones who could afford the expense of updating them. They were the first to understand the quality and beauty of the homes and helped turn the hood around. I dropped her and her fiance off at her parents home in Park Plaza, a clean stable, but moderate neighborhood. She was insufferable. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on July 01, 2009, 11:46:57 am Back on topic, it is reported that Iran has hanged six Mousavi supporters. Time for another ice cream trip, eh Barry?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246296541275&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: waterboy on July 01, 2009, 12:52:10 pm Nah, Gweed. We need to nuke em before this gets out of hand.
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on July 02, 2009, 06:03:41 am Back on topic, it is reported that Iran has hanged six Mousavi supporters. Time for another ice cream trip, eh Barry? http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246296541275&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Obama takes his daughters out for ice cream...... violence and protest in Iran...... oh, the humanity! http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/06/21/Obama-daughters-head-for-ice-cream/UPI-76471245601822/ Yeah, too bad we didn't have President Mark Sanford, because he certainly would never have taken his kids out for ice cream...... ::) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: USRufnex on July 04, 2009, 07:59:09 am Influential Iranian conservative accuses Mousavi of being US agent and committing treason
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/sns-ap-ml-iran-election,0,639735.story "It has to be asked whether the actions of (Mousavi and his supporters) are in response to instructions of American authorities," said Hossein Shariatmadari in an editorial appearing in the conservative daily Kayhan. Shariatmadari doesn't hold a government position but is the powerful director of the Kayhan newspaper group and a close adviser to Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. He added that Mousavi was trying to "escape punishment for murdering innocent people, holding riots, cooperating with foreigners and acting as America's fifth column inside the country." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardline Iran editor calls for Mousavi to face trial By Fredrik Dahl and Hossein JasebPosted 2009/07/04 at 7:42 am EDT (Reuters) http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/l4465952-us-iran/ In a commentary published in his hardline Kayhan daily, editor-in-chief Hossein Shariatmadari suggested Mousavi and his supporters in last month's disputed election had acted on the instructions of the United States. "An open court, in front of the people's eyes, must deal with the all the terrible crimes and clear betrayal committed by the main elements behind the recent unrest, including Mousavi and Khatami," he wrote, referring to former President Mohammad Khatami, a leading reformist who backed Mousavi in the election. Another hardline newspaper, Javan, said 100 members of parliament had signed a letter to the judiciary calling for the leaders of "post-election riots" to face trial, pointing to Mousavi and fellow defeated moderate Mehdi Karoubi. ----------------------------- "All they did and said was in line with the instructions announced by American officials in the past," Shariatmadari, who is close to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, wrote. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, does this make Shariatmadari the Rupert Murdock of Iranian journalism? Too bad John McCain couldn't give the conservative Iranian press some more incendiary quotes as POTUS to use for propaganda purposes..... ::) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Townsend on March 10, 2015, 11:29:08 am Iran Calls GOP Letter 'Propaganda Ploy,' Offers To 'Enlighten' Authors
http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/iran-calls-gop-letter-propaganda-ploy-offers-enlighten-authors (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/iran-calls-gop-letter-propaganda-ploy-offers-enlighten-authors) (http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/placed_wide/nprshared/201503/392070109.jpg) Quote Republican senators' letter to Iran about ongoing nuclear talks has prompted a lengthy response from Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif, who delivered an overview of international law as he critiqued the letter. Zarif said he was astonished by the letter, saying it suggests the U.S. lawmakers "not only do not understand international law" — a subject in which he is a professor — "but are not fully cognizant of the nuances of their own Constitution when it comes to presidential powers in the conduct of foreign policy," according to Iran's Foreign Ministry. The Iranian minister said that "in our view, this letter has no legal value and is mostly a propaganda ploy." His response (we have more of it below) came after it was announced Monday that 47 Senate Republicans who oppose a potential deal with Iran over its nuclear program had signed a letter to the country's leaders. Coming two weeks before the deadline for envoys to reach general terms with Iran, the signatories wrote that they had been observing the negotiations over potentially relaxing economic sanctions — and told Iran's leaders they were concerned "that you may not fully understand our constitutional system." The letter seemed to strike a nerve for Zarif, who moved to the U.S. as a teenager and holds a doctorate and two other advanced degrees from American universities. As NPR's It's All Politics blog noted, "The letter was written by freshman Arkansas Sen. Tom Cotton and co-signed by 46 of his GOP colleagues, including Majority Leader Mitch McConnell." The senators cited the U.S. process of ratifying treaties in Congress and President Obama's term that expires in January of 2017, writing: "What these two constitutional provisions mean is that we will consider any agreement regarding your nuclear-weapons program that is not approved by Congress as nothing more than an executive agreement between President Obama and Ayatollah Khamenei. The next president could revoke such an executive agreement with the stroke of a pen and future Congresses could modify the terms of the agreement at any time." The Republicans' message was quickly criticized by Vice President Joe Biden, a former senator who said it was "beneath the dignity of an institution I revere." Seven Republicans did not sign the letter, as NPR's Ailsa Chang reported today on Morning Edition. President Obama said, "I think it's somewhat ironic to see some members of Congress wanting to make common cause with the hard-liners in Iran" who are also against making a deal over Iran's nuclear program. Zarif, noting that negotiations are ongoing and haven't yielded an agreement, said the U.S. lawmakers' "unconventional methods" show that they "are opposed to any agreement, regardless of its content." Saying he hopes to "enrich the knowledge of the authors," Zarif said: "I should bring one important point to the attention of the authors and that is, the world is not the United States, and the conduct of inter-state relations is governed by international law, and not by US domestic law. The authors may not fully understand that in international law, governments represent the entirety of their respective states, are responsible for the conduct of foreign affairs, are required to fulfill the obligations they undertake with other states and may not invoke their internal law as justification for failure to perform their international obligations." Zarif also noted that many previous international agreements the U.S. has been a party to have been "mere executive agreements," and not full treaties that received Senate ratification. He said any deal on sanctions and Iran's nuclear program would not be bilateral; would require approval by the U.N. and the U.N. Security Council; and would not be subject to modification by Congress. He added, "I wish to enlighten the authors that if the next administration revokes any agreement with the stroke of a pen, as they boast, it will have simply committed a blatant violation of international law." For a different perspective, Ailsa spoke to Richard Nephew, who was on U.S. teams negotiating with Iran during both the Bush and Obama administrations. Nephew said, "The idea that a sitting group of senators of either party would write to the other side of a negotiation to say, 'Eh, don't sign a deal with these guys' — to me, it really smacks of a misplaced understanding of how the international system is supposed to work." Murica Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 12:54:51 pm Iran Calls GOP Letter 'Propaganda Ploy,' Offers To 'Enlighten' Authors http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/iran-calls-gop-letter-propaganda-ploy-offers-enlighten-authors (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/iran-calls-gop-letter-propaganda-ploy-offers-enlighten-authors) (http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/placed_wide/nprshared/201503/392070109.jpg) Murica I have been LOVING this story develop over the past 24 hours. Never before have I seen so many people calling the 47 senators "treasonous", but apparently being completely oblivious that our president is negotiating a nuclear deal with a state sponsor of terror. A country that kidnapped Americans for more than one year, and was implicated in helping the Taliban fight Americans. And I will spare the lengthy recitation of its involvement in international terrorism. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Breadburner on March 10, 2015, 12:58:05 pm O'bama just heard about all this on the news....Like everyone else......
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Townsend on March 10, 2015, 02:00:12 pm I have been LOVING this story develop over the past 24 hours. Never before have I seen so many people calling the 47 senators "treasonous", but apparently being completely oblivious that our president is negotiating a nuclear deal with a state sponsor of terror. A country that kidnapped Americans for more than one year, and was implicated in helping the Taliban fight Americans. And I will spare the lengthy recitation of its involvement in international terrorism. I didn't read treasonous. Is that what your websites are saying? "THE LIBERAL MEDIA IS CALLING THEM TREASONOUS!" Explain the nuclear deal being negotiated and why it's being negotiated please. In your opinion, should all diplomacy be cut off with Iran? Should attempts at peaceful headway be made or should it be stopped? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 02:05:24 pm I didn't read treasonous. Is that what your websites are saying? "THE LIBERAL MEDIA IS CALLING THEM TREASONOUS!" Explain the nuclear deal being negotiated and why it's being negotiated please. In your opinion, should all diplomacy be cut off with Iran? Should attempts at peaceful headway be made or should it be stopped? Come on. You seriously have not seen this hilarity? (http://mx3.politicususa.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/nydn-traitor.jpg) Or read stuff like this: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/iran-letter-tom-cotton-gop/2015/03/10/id/629267/ http://hotair.com/archives/2015/03/10/chris-matthews-this-republican-senate-letter-to-iran-feels-seditious-to-me/ Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Hoss on March 10, 2015, 02:10:37 pm I think 'treasonous' is notching up the rhetoric a little, in true Republican form...which is a little ironic and uncomfortable.
However, there has been talk about how this letter could be consistent with a violation of the Logan Act. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Townsend on March 10, 2015, 02:25:04 pm Come on. You seriously have not seen this hilarity? Or read stuff like this: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/iran-letter-tom-cotton-gop/2015/03/10/id/629267/ http://hotair.com/archives/2015/03/10/chris-matthews-this-republican-senate-letter-to-iran-feels-seditious-to-me/ What the Hell are you reading? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 03:00:23 pm What the Hell are you reading? NPR. That's what revived this thread. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Townsend on March 10, 2015, 03:20:33 pm NPR. That's what revived this thread. Oh good...for a minute there I thought you were damaging your brain. Well read on, McDuff Title: Re: Post by: Ed W on March 10, 2015, 03:34:05 pm So is it better to negotiate with Iran before they acquire nukes, or should we wait until later? There's an interim agreement in place since 2013 limiting their enrichment capability and if we reach agreement on a new one, most of their stockpile will be sent to Russia. Or should we forego any attempt at negotiation and simply have another war in the Gulf? I'd prefer that a treaty emerge from the talks, forcing Senate Republicans into a put up or shut up situation. That could still happen, but it's unlikely.
Title: Re: Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 04:11:30 pm So is it better to negotiate with Iran before they acquire nukes, or should we wait until later? There's an interim agreement in place since 2013 limiting their enrichment capability and if we reach agreement on a new one, most of their stockpile will be sent to Russia. Or should we forego any attempt at negotiation and simply have another war in the Gulf? I'd prefer that a treaty emerge from the talks, forcing Senate Republicans into a put up or shut up situation. That could still happen, but it's unlikely. Ah. the "bad deal" is better than "no deal". Nice way to carry out a foreign policy with a country that wants to destroy Israel. And kills its opposition in the streets. And hangs gays. Hell, even stupid polling on the subject shows distrust. Iran is the number one world sponsor of terror, and you want to play "tee hee, let's corner the repubs" with a nuclear deal? No way am I willing to bet the safety of my kids on trusting Iran, or for that matter this president's negotiations. Are you? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 04:23:34 pm Oh good...for a minute there I thought you were damaging your brain. Well read on, McDuff I get all my news from NPR. Obviously it is the most trustworthy and independent. ::) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 10, 2015, 04:40:43 pm I have been LOVING this story develop over the past 24 hours. Never before have I seen so many people calling the 47 senators "treasonous", but apparently being completely oblivious that our president is negotiating a nuclear deal with a state sponsor of terror. A country that kidnapped Americans for more than one year, and was implicated in helping the Taliban fight Americans. And I will spare the lengthy recitation of its involvement in international terrorism. You mean like Japan. And China. And Russia. All our good buddies now... Would love to see the rationalization your people use to condemn the kidnapping of Americans as response to the violent overthrow of the democratically elected government that spawned that response - without condemning the overthrow that started it all. Maybe there is a white paper on that?? Just gotta wonder why the RWRE hates democratically elected governments so bad?? What is it their distorted world view sees that is so horrible in self-determination, liberty, and freedom?? And not just in Iran, but in many countries around the world. I can provide a list, if you really want to go down that path... Title: Re: Post by: Ed W on March 10, 2015, 05:15:29 pm Guido, where does "no deal" lead other than to Iran developing nukes and delivery ststems sooner? In case you've forgotten, the IAEA monitors and inspections actually prevented Iraq from developing nukes. They were effective and after the invasion and occupation of that country, we didn't find any chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. Should we believe they'd be less effective in Iran? And yes, I trust the safety of my family and every other American to this president. He's the commander-in-chief, and any rational person would want someone in that position who's reluctant to go to war.
Title: Re: Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 05:58:00 pm Guido, where does "no deal" lead other than to Iran developing nukes and delivery ststems sooner? In case you've forgotten, the IAEA monitors and inspections actually prevented Iraq from developing nukes. They were effective and after the invasion and occupation of that country, we didn't find any chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. Should we believe they'd be less effective in Iran? And yes, I trust the safety of my family and every other American to this president. He's the commander-in-chief, and any rational person would want someone in that position who's reluctant to go to war. Oh that's right, the failure of this nuclear deal is going to be the straw that leads to war with Iran. Your hair is way on fire over that. As for Obama. He was right about the Arab spring, right about the JV ISIS, so I am sure he is right about a deal with Iran. And as a country, I think North Korea's nuclear program certainly was halted by Clinton's go-at-it-alone strategy. Your trust in the IAEA seriously weakens your position on this. Here is some info from a very quick search on the reliability of IAEA. You can google "IAEA failures" as well as I can. Finally, I support Israel's position on this, primarily because it has more than us to lose. Plus, they are far more familiar with the region than a community organizer from Chicago. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-27/iaea-refusal-to-visit-iran-site-flags-intelligence-doubts Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 10, 2015, 06:19:38 pm Here's a different take on the 47 treasonous senators and whether their letter was correct...
http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/03/09/the-senators-are-right-on-iran/ It is despicable to listen to all the hand wringing and shouts of congressional interference with Obama's negotiations with Iran. I cannot think of a more anti-presidential congress than Reid and Pelosi while GWB was trying to carry out the Iraq war. Here is an article from Greenwald, who gives a fairly balanced history of the "treason" accusations by both parties. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/10/gop-2007-attacks-pelosi-interfering-bushs-syria-policy-v-todays-similar-dem-attacks-iran/ Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Hoss on March 10, 2015, 11:37:01 pm I'll just leave this right here:
--------------------------------- United States v. Curtiss-Wright Export Corp., 299 US 304 - Supreme Court 1936 Not only, as we have shown, is the federal power over external affairs in origin and essential character different from that over internal affairs, but participation in the exercise of the power is significantly limited. In this vast external realm, with its important, complicated, delicate and manifold problems, the President alone has the power to speak or listen as a representative of the nation. He makes treaties with the advice and consent of the Senate; but he alone negotiates. Into the field of negotiation the Senate cannot intrude; and Congress itself is powerless to invade it. As Marshall said in his great argument of March 7, 1800, in the House of Representatives, "The President is the sole organ of the nation in its external relations, and its sole representative with foreign nations." Annals, 6th Cong., col. 613. The Senate Committee on Foreign Relations at a very early day in our history (February 15, 1816), reported to the Senate, among other things, as follows "The President is the constitutional representative of the United States with regard to foreign nations. He manages our concerns with foreign nations and must necessarily be most competent to determine when, how, and upon what subjects negotiation may be urged with the greatest prospect of success. For his conduct he is responsible to the Constitution. The committee consider this responsibility the surest pledge for the faithful discharge of his duty. They think the interference of the Senate in the direction of foreign negotiations calculated to diminish that responsibility and thereby to impair the best security for the national safety. The nature of transactions with foreign nations, moreover, requires caution and unity of design, and their success frequently depends on secrecy and dispatch." U.S. Senate, Reports, Committee on Foreign Relations, vol. 8, p. 24." So, while it may not be treasonous, the Logan Act (IMO) may still be in play here. But let's not be foolish. This will continue to be the do-nothing Congress v 2.0. They (the majority party) care nothing of governance and everything about obstructionism as a weapon of partisanship. Them inviting Bibi to a Joint Session of Congress didn't surprise me in the least. Protocol means nothing to them. Welcome to the fall of the Republican Party that I grew up with. Unless they pull their heads out of their backsides. Which I don't see happening. I mean, didn't Governor Jindal say they needed to stop being the 'stupid party'? The Governor evidently signed this letter this evening. So much for that, I guess. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2015, 12:07:04 am ^^^Thanks again F. Lee.
And I just do not know how the GOP will ever get past not being the the party Hoss knew way back when-freakin-ever. Was it the party of Nixon he is pining for? The party of Reagan? And does anyone in this forum believe for a moment that Hoss has the slightest concern about the republicans, or that some event would prompt him to ever vote for one? I digress. Maybe someone that speaks Whine-ese can help Hoss understand how what is happening right now with this letter is NOT freakin new: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/stewart-rips-fcking-cuckoo-republicans-dem-hypocrites-over-iran-letter/ Finally, I may be wrong, but John McCain signed this letter. So I guess he violated the Logan Act, and is a traitor to Obama just like veterans Tom Cotton, Lindsay Graham, Joni Ernst, Roger Wicker. And who knew our own senators were violators of the statute. That said, good to know these folks that wore the country's uniform are LESS loyal to this country than Obama. I mean, nothing demonstrates being more American than being a community organizer. And as for the do-nothing Congress... http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/01/23/do-nothing-congress-no-more-2015-senate-amendments-pass-2014 Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Hoss on March 11, 2015, 07:49:17 am (https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t34.0-12/11051117_1572525289698514_1167373617_n.jpg?oh=d4fdbf2b0cf72baf0748df3dbc94fbb5&oe=5502B3D2&__gda__=1426211430_82e0689fae197a4e845b34fd16622a39)
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Conan71 on March 11, 2015, 10:49:01 am (https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t34.0-12/11051117_1572525289698514_1167373617_n.jpg?oh=d4fdbf2b0cf72baf0748df3dbc94fbb5&oe=5502B3D2&__gda__=1426211430_82e0689fae197a4e845b34fd16622a39) Hahahahahaha! Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Townsend on March 11, 2015, 11:33:16 am I get all my news from NPR. Obviously it is the most trustworthy and independent. So obvious it could go without saying. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Townsend on March 11, 2015, 11:33:53 am That letter looks like it was penned by the Oklahoma delegation.
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: swake on March 11, 2015, 12:07:59 pm When did Robbie Bell become a speech writer?
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Hoss on March 11, 2015, 12:37:58 pm When did Robbie Bell become a speech writer? Bahahaha! Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Conan71 on March 11, 2015, 12:40:21 pm When did Robbie Bell become a speech writer? Paging Mr. Bell. Paging Mr. Robbie Bell... (http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/bidnessplan.jpg) Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2015, 01:45:48 pm Paging Mr. Bell. Paging Mr. Robbie Bell... (http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/bidnessplan.jpg) Whatever became of that guy? Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: Conan71 on March 11, 2015, 02:20:28 pm Last I knew working as a security guard and running a mini carnival on the weekends at some flea market.
Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 11, 2015, 06:11:55 pm Last I knew working as a security guard and running a mini carnival on the weekends at some flea market. Thanks. At some point I would like to revisit the whole Bell's "controversy", and maybe get a "what if Bell's Amusement were still here" conversation started. Title: Re: Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up Post by: guido911 on March 12, 2015, 01:25:09 pm Well, it's good to know that since I am not at all wee wee'd up over the Iran letter from the 47 traitors that I am at least not on the same side as the Iranians.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Irans-Khamenei-slams-US-Republicans-and-Zionist-clown-Netanyahu-393700 |