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Talk About Tulsa => PlaniTulsa & Urban Planning => Topic started by: DowntownNow on June 06, 2009, 05:29:02 pm



Title: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: DowntownNow on June 06, 2009, 05:29:02 pm
Early this week I heard from PlaniTulsa leaders that out of the 20,000 surveys the PlaniTulsa group was hoping to receive, only a little over 1,100 had been collected thus far; causing some concern among the effort's leaders. 

I have submitted mine after a lengthy study.  The question I have is this:

Why are more people not submitting the surveys?

Is it a lack of interest?
A thought their voices won't be heard?
The plans are not representative of what they want to see?
Just have not gotten around to it yet?

Also, this popped into my head. 

TYPros, an organization comprised of Tulsa's young professionals and formed by the Tulsa Chamber with a goal to better life in Tulsa for the younger set, boasts a membership of 5,000+.   Those surveys collected so far represents approximately 20% of the stated TYPros membership and I'm guessing many of those submitted were by other people than TYPros. 

So it begs the question...why is TYPros not doing more to promote the return of surveys for a plan that would have great impact on their stated mission? 

If there is anyone in TYPros on here, perhaps you can answer why the lack of interest and if there is anything that is being done among your organization to improve upon the number of surveys submitted by the membership?

I believe unless you submit a survey, you have little reason to later question the path Tulsa chooses to move forward with.  I hope you all submit your surveys as well.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: jiminy on June 07, 2009, 10:52:25 am
I didn't get one


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Ed W on June 07, 2009, 01:57:38 pm
The survey is available on line:

http://www.planitulsa.org/whichwaytulsa (http://www.planitulsa.org/whichwaytulsa)


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: jiminy on June 07, 2009, 03:30:41 pm
I went with B - develop the main streets.  As for why more people aren't doing the survey, a couple of things: a lot of people don't know who or what Planitulsa is, esp. whether or not they have the power to actually influence the direction Tulsa goes.  My perception is that the people/entities that have that power pretty much do what they want to do.  And 2nd, the survey seems slanted towards making you choose the scenario that Planitulsa clearly wants. 


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: TheArtist on June 07, 2009, 05:01:00 pm
I dont think people understand the importance of this. There should be a media blitz about it TV, Radio, Newspapers. Even the TW article in this Sundays paper doesnt at all convey the importance and what this could mean for the city. Perhaps the media itself doesnt know. This could have been something TN could have done, educated the media, the reporters and such on how this would be important, the effects it would have etc. So that they could convey with urgency, its importance. I think we just assumed they would get it, or that PlaniTulsa would get the word out, but it hasnt happened that way. Perhaps we should call a media conference here real quick like.

I would have had,,, and yes I know everyone hates them, those yard signs and such around town and banners saying "NEW COMPREHENSIVE PLAN! vote now to decide Tulsas future!" There really isnt any general public awareness. Most of the people I talk to have no clue and have never heard of this. The headline in the TW saying "Survey seeks future views" doesnt sound important at all. Yet this is one of the most important descisions we can make for the city.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: PonderInc on June 08, 2009, 02:02:52 pm
I was excited to see a big article about the PLANiTULSA surveys in the Sunday Tulsa World.  Of course, my excitement soon turned to mild dismay when I realized that the TW didn't make it clear that this is a CITY of TULSA plan.  Not a regional plan.  Not an INCOG plan. 

In an act of "journalism by intelligent design" they found 4 people, one to support each survey.  Two of them were from Owasso.  (One Owassoan was especially excited about Scenario A...where most new jobs, housing and taxes would go to the burbs, and 99% of transportation dollars would be spent on roads.  Of course.)

This caused me some concern b/c the survey does not ask for a zip code.  (I guess I'd like to know that most folks who participate actually reside in Tulsa!)

Of course, I know many folks who live in the burbs and love Tulsa...especially downtown/midtown.  So I'll hope that most "outsiders" who complete a survey do it b/c they sincerely care about Tulsa.  Fingers crossed....


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: PonderInc on June 08, 2009, 02:17:01 pm
And 2nd, the survey seems slanted towards making you choose the scenario that Planitulsa clearly wants. 
Where do you get that?  There's no advantage for the consulting team to create something that Tulsans don't want.  Indeed, that would only result in headaches for everyone. 

Whenever I've heard any member of the consulting team speak about the scenarios, they are very non-biased and non-judgemental.  They've gathered data, run models and presented the information.  (So you can judge what's best.) 

They will tell you that the scenarios are "crash test dummies."  They want real feedback from people.  They want to know what Tulsans like and don't like about the various concepts...so they can take the best concepts and run with it...confident that it will have the support of a majority of Tulsans.  (Rather than being hijacked by contentious fights further down the road.)

If you look at the data and see that certain proposals will benefit Tulsa more than others, that's just life.  Not all ideas are created equal.  Different plans will have different outcomes.  In this case, it's nice to see the data up front.  (Instead of just living with the sad consequences of decisions that were made 30 years ago--and never re-evaluated--as we've been doing for decades.)


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Ihearttacos on June 08, 2009, 02:17:44 pm
I filled out a survey weeks ago and have had several people tell me about it since, including an in office email.  I forwarded it on to other Tulsans as well.  I also have heard blurbs on the news and on NPR.  I don't understand how there are only about 1,200 or so completed, hopefully by now this number is improved...  


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: brianh on June 08, 2009, 02:31:41 pm
Never heard of this, did it only come out in the Tulsa World?  I don't even know anyone who gets that paper.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: PonderInc on June 08, 2009, 03:05:37 pm
Off the top of my head, it's been covered by all local TV stations, TGOV, the Tulsa World, the Urban Tulsa Weekly, the Journal Record, the Tulsa Business Journal, KRMG, KFAQ, and KWGS...  Not to mention a lot of outreach by community and neighborhood groups...

Oh yeah, and this forum has been talking about it for months.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Double A on June 08, 2009, 06:00:49 pm
Off the top of my head, it's been covered by all local TV stations, TGOV, the Tulsa World, the Urban Tulsa Weekly, the Journal Record, the Tulsa Business Journal, KRMG, KFAQ, and KWGS...  Not to mention a lot of outreach by community and neighborhood groups...

Oh yeah, and this forum has been talking about it for months.

At this point in the discussion, would proper etiquette dictate the disclosure of being on the Citizens Team Committee, if anyone taking part is, that is?

http://www.planitulsa.org/participating

Not that I really give a damn.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: PonderInc on June 11, 2009, 02:14:54 pm
Advice to AA:

"Once the horse is dead, dismount."

Didn't we cover this in great detail last year? 

If anyone does "give a damn" but doesn't already know, I'm on it.  Of course, most folks who care already know that.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Townsend on June 12, 2009, 11:38:25 am
I've been informed that plan A is pulling way ahead of all the others.

This means status quo.

So is all of Owasso and Broken Arrow voting in this thing?


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: TURobY on June 12, 2009, 12:01:47 pm
I've been informed that plan A is pulling way ahead of all the others.

This means status quo.

So is all of Owasso and Broken Arrow voting in this thing?

What measures are in place to ensure that the only people filling out the survey are citizens of Tulsa and not suburbanites or the same person filling out several surveys?


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: carltonplace on June 12, 2009, 02:57:40 pm
I wonder if developers, builders and realtors have organized to move the results to scenario A.

The people that took time out of their day to attend the seminars and planning meetings clearly steered away from "A" in what seemed to be full consensus. Something odd is going on that it is now the most popular choice.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: TURobY on June 12, 2009, 03:01:55 pm
I wonder if developers, builders and realtors have organized to move the results to scenario A.

The people that took time out of their day to attend the seminars and planning meetings clearly steered away from "A" in what seemed to be full consensus. Something odd is going on that it is now the most popular choice.

I agree. Something very suspicious...


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Double A on June 12, 2009, 03:25:47 pm
I've been informed that plan A is pulling way ahead of all the others.

This means status quo.

So is all of Owasso and Broken Arrow voting in this thing?

2010 is a  Census year. Maybe we should slow this down a bit and explore the possibility of working with the Census Bureau to get Tulsa households to fill out these surveys. It might be a good idea to slow this process because Comp plan update funding is inadequate or unsecured at this point in time.

I still can't help but feel like the chip packets used in the workshops are eerily similar to the scenarios presented. Tulsa needs a tailored plan. This feels too off the shelf to me.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: DowntownNow on June 13, 2009, 11:05:23 am
My perception is that the people/entities that have that power pretty much do what they want to do.  And 2nd, the survey seems slanted towards making you choose the scenario that Planitulsa clearly wants. 

I've completed my survey but I have to say, a lot of people that I have spoken with had the same perceptions that jiminy spoke of.  Many felt that no matter what was voted on as the most popular direction for Tulsa, that Tulsa's typical influential and powerful would guide it to their own plans. 

This was not helped by John Fregonese zipping right past the top 5 concerns among Tulsans during his presentations.  One of which (#3 I think which got no mention) was the concern that only the wealthy and powerful truly have a say in Tulsa's future.  It wasn't helped again when PlaniTulsa started involving Kaiser Family Foundation paid and lent to Taylor City Planner Jack Crowley.  When he started pushing his 5 ideas for downtown development, connectivity, mass transit, 23rd & Jackson, 18th & Boston plans, etc...it made people wonder who was really steering the ship, Kaiser or the people...and thats sad.  I dont begrudge Kaiser for assisting in paying for 1/3 of the comprehensive plan study but thats as far as it should have gone.

I heard Crowley speak at a number of presentations for PlaniTulsa, extolling the virtues of his plans and how they were based on the feedback he was getting from PlaniTulsa...the only problem was that I had seen those plans in his office back in May/June 2008, before PlaniTulsa was really soliciting opinions from the public.  It can make one wonder but in the end, I hope Tulsans step up to the plate and let their concerns and voices be heard regarding the direction they want to see our city grow for the next 30 years.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: DowntownNow on June 13, 2009, 11:05:50 am
BTW Double A....luv that idea...kudos


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Theron Warlick on June 14, 2009, 12:38:38 pm
Hi TulsaNowers (?).  I talked to a couple of your members at the Lortondale function last night and I think you guys were wanting an update.  In no particular order:

1.  Yes, 20,000 paper surveys have been distributed, but we were never expecting a 100% response on those.  This kind of survey, which is similar to a mailed survey, typically gets about a 2% response rate...and that's about not far off from what we have gathered on paper so far.  There are more to collect.

2.  Things have picked up and over 2,000 more people have responded online, and we expect lots more as we move through the week.  Fregonese says that, in previous efforts, they have gathered as much as one-third of the responses in final 48 hours.

3.  We're extremely happy to have every survey we can get, so thank you all for weighing in and please tell your associates!  If we don't see a last minute rush, then yes, we'll be a couple of thousand surveys under projections...but this data is going to work out just fine.  Also, we're not really worried about people weighing in from other parts of the region and planet, we have several ways to track that.  So far, 87% of the online respondents are reporting to be from some part of Tulsa.  And those who did not respond to this question are not necessarily from other places.  We're paying attention to this and other demographic returns.

4.  Aa's idea is a very good one, especially since the census is being transformed into an on-going process, instead of a decennial one.  See American Community Survey:  http://www.census.gov/acs/www/index.html  Not sure what the rules are with gathering outside data, but it's a cool objective to try and get some continuous local input on these sorts of growth issues.  I do not think that we can do this by the 18th, but I believe that planning, just like the census, should also evolve into an on-going process in Tulsa.  I would also like to note that the statistical survey we started with last year has proven to be invaluable.  We certainly want to work with Tulsans who are motivated about our future, but having actual statistics to compare with  ideas and assertions is essential in understanding of what Tulsans want.  Good call Double A.  I have some ideas...contact me in any way that you are comfortable and I will respond in kind.  

5.  On the "bias" issue.  This survey is actually the product of the workshops that many of you attended last fall and winter.  Scenarios B, C, and D reflect the kinds of changes that you, and subsets of you, asked for in those workshops.  So yes, I think it's fair to say there's a pro-change attitude in the survey...if someone is perfectly content with things as they are today, then why would they come to a workshop?  

Nevertheless, Scenario A is there as a choice.  It's a valuable baseline and it is useful to learn who is most content with the trend and where they live.  I've had a couple of complaints that we should not show the indicators, i.e., the comparisons on population, jobs, congestions, etc., because they make "A" look bad.  Again, the measures were developed with input from the statistical survey, workshops, and the Guiding Principles that Tulsans defined for us.  These measures may not favor "A", but we believe they are reflective of the concerns of Tulsans.

5.  We'll wait for the data to roll in, but I can say that, generally, the results seem reflective of things we've seen both in the workshops and in the statistical survey.  "A" is not running away with it, as someone suggested.

6.  I'm not aware of any conspiracies at this time...we're simply trying, as we have been all along, to get Tulsans to weigh in and help form a shared vision for the future.  That involves getting all sorts of people to speak up, including people who don't always get along with each other.  So please help us do that this week.  Thanks.  I'll check back soon.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Cherish on June 16, 2009, 05:36:53 pm
Um so I filled the survey out before I saw this thread, even though I won't be moving to Tulsa for about 3 more weeks but I saw the banner on the top of this forum and thought it was a TYPro thing, didn't know it was about city planning till I started going through the scenerios. 

Well I picked that my number one choice would be C and second D, as I like cities with a professional, urban downtown feel.  Plus I am all for transportation via light rail, bus systems, subway (doubt that would happen in Tulsa though).  Love housing that is more loft, condo style or restored historical homes that can turn into apartments like Upstate New York, that have options for the YP and the Empty Nesters who want a more urban vibrant feel.  Plus I like a broadway or Main type feel to downtown and surrounding areas too. Always felt suburbs shouldn't turn into downtowns, so Scenario A wouldn't make sense to me, why live in a Surburb to turn it into N. Va or the 'burbs of Baltimore, which no longer feel like a suburb (I know that's where I went to high school going back now does NOT feel like the suburbs I knew in the late 90's).

So scenario C and D were the better choices that I seen from the website, even though they will be costly in the end the economy from the result of newer employment and bringing in a diverse population would result in Tulsa's economy having a higher yield and attracting people to Tulsa, which is the purpose right?  :)


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: carltonplace on June 17, 2009, 02:23:14 pm
^ Yep that is the hope of Tulsa Now  ;D


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: ILUVTulsa on June 17, 2009, 07:34:41 pm
Scenerio A....ALL da way, baby!  Down with government-owned fixed route transit!  Down with Downtown Development!  Down....Down.....Down, DAMMIT!

And, why did da GOB hire some carpet-baggin' Portlander to do our planning?  Like da locals too stooopid to figure it all out.  GIT REAL.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2009, 08:58:57 pm
Scenerio A....ALL da way, baby!  Down with government-owned fixed route transit!  Down with Downtown Development!  Down....Down.....Down, DAMMIT!

And, why did da GOB hire some carpet-baggin' Portlander to do our planning?  Like da locals too stooopid to figure it all out.  GIT REAL.

I guarantee if they see a picture of you all decked out that's EXACTLY what they'll be thinking, Paul.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Theron Warlick on June 18, 2009, 08:01:34 am
Today is the last day for surveys!  Please send your friends, families, etc. this link http://www.planitulsa.org/whichwaytulsa

It's only 12 questions.  A few minutes of study could make a huge difference for our future.  Thanks again for helping out.

BTW, we've got over 3,600 now...the pace has really picked up.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: OpenYourEyesTulsa on June 18, 2009, 08:21:25 am
Why would anyone choose A?  It is too restrictive on parking and layout.  Option A has more of the same government regulation.   There is no need for 5,000 parking spaces at every new store that are only all used on the busiest shopping day of the year.  And with more public transit and walkable shopping you do not need as much ugly and wasteful surface parking.  I like option C the best.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Theron Warlick on June 18, 2009, 01:19:31 pm
4,100!


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: PonderInc on June 19, 2009, 03:33:22 pm
Do we have a final count yet?

I was happy to see a sticker on the front of the Tulsa World yesterday.  Assume it caused a big rush on the last day.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: Theron Warlick on June 22, 2009, 08:24:33 am
Do we have a final count yet?

I was happy to see a sticker on the front of the Tulsa World yesterday.  Assume it caused a big rush on the last day.
No, we won't have a final count for a few days...paper surveys are still coming in.  We have approximately 4,600 right now.


Title: Re: PlaniTulsa surveys falling shorter than expected and where are the TYPRos?
Post by: PonderInc on June 22, 2009, 10:21:38 am
Nice!  I would have loved to see twice as many, but I think this is a pretty strong response (especially for the summer months, when nobody's thinking about much of anything except mowing the lawn and going on vacation).

Actually, when you think about what people were being asked to do (read a bunch of wonkish material and take a survey about future development goals), it's pretty impressive.  This required a bit more intellectual rigor than voting on your favorite American Idol participant ("I like him.  He's cute!").  And probably a lot more studying than most people dedicate to City Council elections ("His name sounds familiar...").

Can't wait to hear the results!  Next up: keeping the Comp Plan on track during (and after) an election year, and holding elected officials' feet to the fire when it comes to implementing the plan.  And making the necessary zoning changes that will ALLOW the plan to be realized.  (I'm assuming that Scenario A, aka "Slow Death by Attrition," was not the favorite... I'm pretty sure that "A" is the only scenario that would not require amendments to our zoning code.)