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Not At My Table - Political Discussions => Local & State Politics => Topic started by: patric on May 27, 2009, 11:21:14 am



Title: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on May 27, 2009, 11:21:14 am
Last week Gov. Brad Henry signed legislation to protect medical personnel from assaults, creating a felony charge against anyone who assaults an emergency medical care provider or emergency medical technician who is performing medical care duties.
The penalty would be up to two years in prison under the new law.

So was it just jealousy or irony that the first ones to assault paramedics under the new law would be members of the Oklahoma Highway Patrol?

OHP Trooper Scuffle Caught On Videotape
Posted: May 27, 2009 7:11 AM CDT Updated: May 27, 2009 10:46 AM CDT
http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10428746

BOLEY, OK -- Oklahoma Highway Patrol troopers get into a fight with a paramedic and it is all caught on videotape.

The incident happened near Boley in Okfuskee County.
In the video, you see OHP troopers pushing the paramedic and grabbing his neck.

The fight happened during an emergency call when a patient waiting to be taken to the local hospital was in the back of the ambulance.

Officials say OHP troopers became upset after the paramedic failed to yield while the troopers were rushing to a call of their own.
The troopers claim the paramedic assaulted one of them before the camera started rolling.

The video was shot by the patient's son. He says he continually asked the troopers to stop, so his mom could be taken to the hospital.
"We're like telling this dude. 'Man, my mom is in the back.' My step-dad was like 'man my wife is in the back, can we do this at the hospital,'" said Kenyada Davis.

KTUL adds this:
"This highway patrolman pulled over my mom's ambulance because he was mad we didn't pull over and he's trying to arrest the EMT from taking my mother to the hospital," Davis is seen saying on the recording.

Davis continues to record as first, one trooper can be seen talking to one of the paramedics. A couple of minutes later, another trooper is seen confronting another paramedic and attempting to arrest him. The paramedic can be seen shoving the trooper at which time the scuffle breaks out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCw0XjHNzZ4


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on May 27, 2009, 11:30:02 am
What get's me is OHP is pissed off because they didn't yeild since OHP was heading to a call, however, the call seemed to be less important then the ambulance yielding.

I hope they get the full sentence.  Set an example for once.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on May 27, 2009, 12:03:57 pm
What get's me is OHP is pissed off because they didn't yeild since OHP was heading to a call, however, the call seemed to be less important then the ambulance yielding.

Apparently the OHP's call was so urgent that they forgot all about it to pick a fight with the paramedics.
To be fair, though, this is the sort of inflated sense of self-importance you get with any patronage job.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 27, 2009, 12:10:01 pm
Quote
The troopers claim the paramedic assaulted one of them before the camera started rolling.

Oh, cool.  Choke away man.

This is the excuse most often given by children.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on May 27, 2009, 12:17:54 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KluItc365hU[/youtube]


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on May 27, 2009, 10:34:58 pm
The paramedics incident report:

http://www.fox23.com/media/news/b/4/4/b4451728-7467-47c5-b259-3ebd3e9b0e10/Ambulance_Incident_Reports.pdf

Most alarming about this is that trooper Daniel Martin stated that he "determined in his mind to escalate to pulling his service revolver and using deadly force" on the ambulance crew.

Wow, just wow.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: rwarn17588 on May 28, 2009, 08:54:27 am
If the OHP is in the wrong, I find it deeply ironic that the incident of a white cop choking a black man occurred in the town of Boley, a town that was established for blacks escaping the oppression of the Jim Crow South after the Civil War.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on May 28, 2009, 09:10:37 am
Oh, cool.  Choke away man.

This is the excuse most often given by children.

Of course assault is as simple as calling someone an A-hole, not taking a swing at them.  Anyone care to chime in on what the pecking order is for emergency vehicles running hot?  This is truly weird and I think the troopers effed up big-time.

I see a $$$ettlement($) coming.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: guido911 on May 28, 2009, 09:19:49 am
Of course assault is as simple as calling someone an A-hole, not taking a swing at them.  Anyone care to chime in on what the pecking order is for emergency vehicles running hot?  This is truly weird and I think the troopers effed up big-time.

I see a $$$ettlement($) coming.

Any word on the ambulance chasers chasing this ambulance worker?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on May 28, 2009, 09:42:22 am
Of course assault is as simple as calling someone an A-hole, not taking a swing at them.  Anyone care to chime in on what the pecking order is for emergency vehicles running hot?  This is truly weird and I think the troopers effed up big-time.

I see a $$$ettlement($) coming.

I haven't seen anything that says the ambulance was running hot, just that they had someone in the back.  Did I miss that?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on May 28, 2009, 09:57:33 am
Of course assault is as simple as calling someone an A-hole, not taking a swing at them.  Anyone care to chime in on what the pecking order is for emergency vehicles running hot?  This is truly weird and I think the troopers effed up big-time.

I see a $$$ettlement($) coming.

And I see the taxpayers having to pick up the tab for OHP again.

Kotv is reporting that the OHP claims the paramedic stepped out of the ambulance, assaulted Trooper Daniel Martin and then stepped back in again, and that this is all on OHP's dashcam tape.

Now dont most people who "assault" OHP end up cuffed face down in asphalt with their teeth kicked out and their ribs being broken?  But this guy just walks away?  Sorry, not buying it.

My bet is that OHP brass is plotting on how they can arrest the paramedics and witnesses for perjury like they have done in the past (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070930_1_A1_hrpah05082), and that the video shot on publicy-owned equipment by publicly-funded state employees will never be public record (at least in an unadulterated form).


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: buckeye on May 28, 2009, 10:01:40 am
Unbelievable.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: dbacks fan on May 28, 2009, 10:07:29 am
I haven't seen anything that says the ambulance was running hot, just that they had someone in the back.  Did I miss that?

I have been wondering the same thing. If the ambulance is running hot I would think it would have the right of way over a law enforcement vehicle. If not I think it would be the other way around.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on May 28, 2009, 10:26:21 am
I agree on the assessment of right of way. What important call was OHP on that they had time to stop an ambulance on the way and harass them anyway?  But, it is a non-issue. 

When the trooper was informed that the ambulance had a patient in the back the proper course of action would be to take down the information and call the paramedic supervisor and handle the problem.  The course of action they chose resolved nothing and endangered everyone on the scene (including a person in the back of the ambulance) as well as sucking a ton of public resources (and further endangering the public or whomever was calling the OHP).

Even if it was a citizen the proper course of action would NOT have been to choke the person up against his vehicle.

I do not believe the OHP's story about an assault on the officer.  My guess is they are claiming the near collision as an assault.  Show me the video or face up to the assault charges that should be filed against these OHP officers.

Thank the gods for citizens with cameras. Now, OHP, show some integrity and face up to this cluster.  Or circle the wagons and pretend it never happened . . .


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Townsend on May 28, 2009, 10:46:48 am
Now, OHP, show some integrity and face up to this cluster.  Or circle the wagons and pretend it never happened . . .


Hmmm, let me gaze into my crystal ball...


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on May 28, 2009, 11:09:14 am

Thank the gods for citizens with cameras. Now, OHP, show some integrity and face up to this cluster.  Or circle the wagons and pretend it never happened . . .

I'll take pretend it never happened for $500 Alex.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on May 28, 2009, 12:07:50 pm
I agree on the assessment of right of way. What important call was OHP on that they had time to stop an ambulance on the way and harass them anyway?  But, it is a non-issue. 

When the trooper was informed that the ambulance had a patient in the back the proper course of action would be to take down the information and call the paramedic supervisor and handle the problem.  The course of action they chose resolved nothing and endangered everyone on the scene (including a person in the back of the ambulance) as well as sucking a ton of public resources (and further endangering the public or whomever was calling the OHP).

Even if it was a citizen the proper course of action would NOT have been to choke the person up against his vehicle.

I do not believe the OHP's story about an assault on the officer.  My guess is they are claiming the near collision as an assault.  Show me the video or face up to the assault charges that should be filed against these OHP officers.

Thank the gods for citizens with cameras. Now, OHP, show some integrity and face up to this cluster.  Or circle the wagons and pretend it never happened . . .

From what I gathered of the report, the OHP went ahead and went to it's call and then rushed to catch back up the the ambulance, cutting off one of the family members following the ambulance and running them off the road in the process.  The supposed assault was when the OHP first tried to arrest the peramedic (before the camera's rolled), and grabbed his arm much like he did on tape, the peramedic pushed him off, like he did on tape, and told him that he was assaulting him and was commiting a felony.  He then got back in the ambulance to check on the patient.  The EMT's even told the cops that they could arrest them if they needed to or whatever, but it could wait until they got the patient to the hospital.  OHP didn't want to hear it.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hoss on May 28, 2009, 12:21:09 pm
Waiting for MH2010 to respond in 3...2...1...


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: PepePeru on May 28, 2009, 05:16:19 pm
I'm sure the OHP officer was really "assaulted' by an EMT.

If he took a swing or physically shoved a cop he'd have about 4-5 of them on his back.

Can you imagine if this were just a car of blacks, much less an ambulance?

This is just some power-tripping OHP officers who got pissy b/c an ambulance, driven by a black man, didn't yield to him.

Yeah, I'm playing that card and its the trump.

I'm glad the tape got out there.






Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: FOTD on May 28, 2009, 07:46:39 pm
I'm sure the OHP officer was really "assaulted' by an EMT.

If he took a swing or physically shoved a cop he'd have about 4-5 of them on his back.

Can you imagine if this were just a car of blacks, much less an ambulance?

This is just some power-tripping OHP officers who got pissy b/c an ambulance, driven by a black man, didn't yield to him.

Yeah, I'm playing that card and its the trump.

I'm glad the tape got out there.






No doubt about it....the OHP should be sent to rehab.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on May 28, 2009, 09:23:07 pm
Tonight we hear from a woman who saw with her own eyes something many can’t believe happened.

An Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper who appears to be angry detains an EMS crew in Okfuskee County even putting his hand around a paramedic’s neck.

FOX23’s Abbie Alford spoke to a witness who says she hates what she witnessed.
It was a scene that would have been hard to believe had it not been captured on camera.

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Witness-Shocked-By-Trooper-EMS-Incident/bj1T7sHr30OqoNMfo8QAZQ.cspx


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: tim huntzinger on May 29, 2009, 06:36:10 am
The out-of-control ossifer should be terminated from the force and sent to work in some third-world Banana republic where that kind of thing is normal . . . oh . . . I see.  He already is! Threatening the life of a resident in the poorest county in Oklahoma! What a man!  What a disgrace to law enforcement!  What a travesty! The DA should press charges at least and it sounds like he did indeed assault that EMT and should be subject to that new state law.

This was the topic of the day over at the Jones Show! http://www.prisonplanet.com/cops-stop-ambulance-on-way-to-hospital-and-fight-with-emt.html


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on May 29, 2009, 06:52:05 am
I'm sure the OHP officer was really "assaulted' by an EMT.

If he took a swing or physically shoved a cop he'd have about 4-5 of them on his back.

Can you imagine if this were just a car of blacks, much less an ambulance?

This is just some power-tripping OHP officers who got pissy b/c an ambulance, driven by a black man, didn't yield to him.

Yeah, I'm playing that card and its the trump.

I'm glad the tape got out there.






Just to point out, the driver was white.  The Black Peramedic was the one attending the patient.  While race might have been an issue in the attack, it obvoiusly wasn't the reason of them stopping the ambulance (that was just a good old fashion power trip).


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on May 29, 2009, 11:05:55 am
At least one TV station is requesting the dashcam video, but what FOX23 is likely to get will be another edited version like OHP has done in the past.

 
Some history:
After the Sept 3, 2006 traffic stop of 32-year-old paralegal Latisha White, OHP Trooper Rocky Northcutt was accused of screaming profanities at her and her children.  OHP retaliated by charging White with perjury.
When White's attorney Lance McCrary asked for the dashcam video, he was given a copy that was flawed and had "skips" in it.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=070916_1_A1_hConf67873

On Oct 4, 2007 the Troopers Association attorney allowed the Tulsa World to watch a different version of the video, a compact disc copy of the Department of Public Safety in-car video.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=071004_1_A13_hrpah60381
James would not give the newspaper a copy of the CD.
The video portion (with a tape counter) showed no gaps, but the audio portion was missing the alleged statements by the trooper witnesses claimed to have heard.  No one is seen speaking on-camera.

Even if the dashcam video were to contain more damning information, disciplining the officers would be virtually unheard of.

"In his 11-plus years of representing the Oklahoma State Troopers Association, Oklahoma City attorney Gary James said he has never seen a formal DPS complaint lead to a criminal charge.
James, however, said he is aware of four to five other cases in which civil or criminal litigation is being considered against persons allegedly making false statements against the OHP."

A Tulsa World investigation found that filing perjury charges is often the OHP's solution to dealing with complainers.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=070930_1_A1_hrpah05082


OHP says their dashcam video supports their boys story, despite independent video documentation to the contrary.  At least some journalists are calling their bluff.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on May 31, 2009, 12:19:23 pm
News accounts about the scuffle have generated headlines around the world. In fact, video film shot during the scuffle is now the No. 2 most-watched video on YouTube.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090530_12_A1_OKLAHO931830

Wow, Oklahoma is a vacation destination now for sure!

Look for some big changes at the OHP as a result....
(Like confiscating a lot more cameras and cellphones (http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=8619179)).


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: altruismsuffers on June 01, 2009, 11:50:25 pm
You know this type of crap is happening alot more frequently...  Why do you think that there are so many A-holes that are supposed to be "peace officers"?  Have you seen some of the reports that have been put out?  You must have an ignorant a**hole like this fellow to follow reports like the MIAC report that claims if you have a Ron Paul sticker on your car your a TERRORIST!   You cant get a smart thinking intelligent person who truly cares about others to consider people who "Talk about the constitution" to be a terrorist.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gomfi4u399U[/youtube]


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: sgrizzle on June 02, 2009, 07:24:27 am
You know this type of crap is happening alot more frequently...  Why do you think that there are so many A-holes that are supposed to be "peace officers"?  Have you seen some of the reports that have been put out?  You must have an ignorant a**hole like this fellow to follow reports like the MIAC report that claims if you have a Ron Paul sticker on your car your a TERRORIST!   You cant get a smart thinking intelligent person who truly cares about others to consider people who "Talk about the constitution" to be a terrorist.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2638436364_c2d489a1c5_o.png)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: FOTD on June 02, 2009, 07:29:23 am
It's just a hand gesture....not like Bill O'Lielly and Fawks Network stirring the pot.....

Boycott Fawk Network!


Come and get me:


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 02, 2009, 07:52:07 am
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2638436364_c2d489a1c5_o.png)

Whoa, Drizzle, that looks like one of those Chris Mudschlock circlejerk flow charts.  Where's Bob Parmele in it?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: sauerkraut on June 02, 2009, 08:49:30 am
KFAQ Radio 1170 talked about this on the morn. show. There is no question the cop should be removed, he's too much of a hot head and what will he be like with a regular person if he treats a Paramedic with a choke hold? I doubt any anger management class will work in this case, after awhile he'll go back to being his old self. He needs to be removed. Maybe put him on a desk job.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 02, 2009, 09:42:41 am
It's just a hand gesture....not like Bill O'Lielly and Fawks Network stirring the pot.....

The finger gesture is just a claim made after the fact to defend something indefensible, much like the Bixby trooper  turned in by other troopers for repeatedly kicking in the ribs of a handcuffed woman he later claimed spat.
 
Dont expect to see it on any dashcam video.  As a matter of fact, dont expect to see the unadulterated dashcam video period. As long as the video remains "secret" then OHP might as well claim they have video of Bigfoot and Elvis.
Accountability, I dont think so...


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: CoffeeBean on June 02, 2009, 09:32:15 pm
Trooper's report:

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWS9/PDF/0906/trooperscuffle.pdf (http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWS9/PDF/0906/trooperscuffle.pdf)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: buckeye on June 03, 2009, 09:39:14 am
Uh oh...

somebody's hat got knocked off...


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Townsend on June 03, 2009, 09:40:54 am
Uh oh...

somebody's hat got knocked off...

That's a redneck capital offense.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 03, 2009, 10:00:45 am
Uh oh...

somebody's hat got knocked off...

(http://cornerstork.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/crying_baby.jpg)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 03, 2009, 10:03:24 am
Trooper's report:

How many perps get a whole week to get their story straight?

And then there's the unseen dashcam video that absolves them of all...
"Oh, I thought the DA had it, I dont have it, Maybe DPS still has it, nope? well someone's got it."


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: FOTD on June 03, 2009, 11:14:43 am
Sick em O'Carrol...


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 05, 2009, 11:52:50 am
Sick em O'Carrol...

Interesting the dashcam video is a sealed part of the "investigation", yet the trooper's statements are not...


Paramedic Defends Himself After Trooper Scuffle


OKLAHOMA CITY -- Paul Franks, a paramedic in the middle of a feud involving an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper, is defending himself after the controversy continues.

Franks has already spoken to investigators within Oklahoma Highway Patrol and the District Attorney's Office, but he continues to deny what he says are outright lies by OHP Trooper Daniel Martin.

"It's not been easy for me to come and call you people up and say, 'Come talk to me', because I initially didn't want to do this," Franks said.
But Franks felt compelled to come forward after reading and hearing Trooper Martin's statements about what happened Memorial Day weekend on Highway 62 near Paden.

The scuffle, Martin claimed, was caused when Franks "failed to yield" to OHP who was running on an emergency call. When Franks finally did pull over, "he gave Martin the finger."
Franks said it never happened, and if anything, Martin was the aggressor.

Eventually, OHP pulled Franks over and what happened next is the subject of much debate.

Trooper Martin said Paramedic Maurice White emerged from the back of the vehicle and "he presented himself in a hostile manner."
But Franks said White was acting in defense of his patient who was being transported to a nearby hospital, and Martin was enraged.

"I'm tell him, 'Sir, I didn't see you or I would have gladly pulled over,'" Franks said.

Franks said he initially didn't yield because he never saw OHP. The road was hilly, a car was in front of him and Trooper Martin did not have his siren on, all of which he said he barely had a chance to explain.
"Trooper got out of his car very, very angry," Franks said. "Dash Cam will show his actions, if we ever see it."

District Attorney Max Cook is not releasing the video because it's part of an investigation.
"If they're so convinced that he was right...let's see that Dash Cam," Franks said.

Trooper Martin is now the subject of an internal investigation by OHP, but he still remains on the job.

District Attorney Cook has not said when or if he will file any charges against anyone involved in the confrontation.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 05, 2009, 01:33:41 pm
How are they getting away with not releasing that video?

Quote
the Oklahoma Open Records Act says:
Access to records which, under the Oklahoma Open Records Act, would otherwise be available for public inspection and copying, shall not be denied because a public body or public official is using or has taken possession of such records for investigatory purposes or has placed the records in a litigation or investigation file. However, a law enforcement agency may deny access to a copy of such a record in an investigative file if the record or a true and complete copy thereof is available for public inspection and copying at another public body.

Okla. Stat. tit. 51 § 21A.20 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=80308)

24A.8  (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=80295)of the same doesn't provide a duty to disclose Dashcams, but an "investigation" is not a reason to justify withholding it.  If a request is filed with the Court they will be ordered released if their reason for keeping it a State secret is outweighed by the interest of an individual or the public at large.  I would think both apply here:  the paramedic has a right to clear his name AND to sue the officer for assault and batter and the public has a right to know if either the paramedics endangered the public or the OHP is corrupt (by covering up misconduct of an officer).

An investigation is not a reason to withhold a record.  I fail to see what effect it would have on this situation other than to confirm or deny the version of events given by the OHP.  My bet:  if the paramedic assaulted the officer that video would have been on youtube the next day.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 05, 2009, 10:16:17 pm
How are they getting away with not releasing that video?

By just not acknowledging the Open Records requests that have been filed.
Dont look for any justice from the DA, either.  He's taken a pill:

OHP Trooper Faces No Charges Following Scuffle


http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10486819
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/No-Charges-In-OHP-Vs-EMT-Incident/fHB90_acsUOEhtwrr51Sig.cspx

"Cook wouldn't release the dash-camera video that recording the alleged assault due to the investigation. Now that the investigation is complete, it remains up to OHP to release the footage."


The video apparently didnt support OHP's claims, so dont hold your breath for them to give it up now.
Maybe a grand jury would have better luck.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: buckeye on June 06, 2009, 11:02:13 am
Who do we contact to see that something is done about this?  State Reps and Senators?  Inundate the D.A.'s office?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 08, 2009, 07:57:19 am
What a great system!  If the video shows someone else doing something wrong, it's out the next day and on the news.  If the video shows OHP doing something wrong, you simple never release it.

If a records request is filed with the Court you can get a Court Order for the video to be released unless they can show that their interest in keeping it an agency secret outweighs the public or private interests involved.  I'm hard pressed to see a legitimate agency interest that would be protected here.

What is the media doing here?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 08, 2009, 11:12:26 am
What a great system!  If the video shows someone else doing something wrong, it's out the next day and on the news.  If the video shows OHP doing something wrong, you simple never release it.

If a records request is filed with the Court you can get a Court Order for the video to be released unless they can show that their interest in keeping it an agency secret outweighs the public or private interests involved.  I'm hard pressed to see a legitimate agency interest that would be protected here.

What is the media doing here?

Im only aware of FOX23's Open Records request, but Open Records "champion" Tulsa Whirled is strangely silent this round.  Funny, since they have done stories in the past about possible video tampering and the troubles they have had getting unadulterated video from OHP.



Who do we contact to see that something is done about this?  State Reps and Senators?  Inundate the D.A.'s office?

Lieutenant Governor Jari Askins is the OHP's boss.  She also wants to be governor and a corruption scandal under her watch would not be a campaign plus, but unlike the OHP she cant hope this will never happen again without taking steps. 
By that I mean a fundamental restructuring of the department and it's ethics -- not confiscating cameras, suppressing evidence and intimidating victims. 

Something she could do right now is announce random drug testing of substances like Steroids and Meth, both of which could induce the paranoid, enraged behavior seen on the cellphone camera video.
That, and put an end to OHP's childish bluff regarding their secret dashcam video by declaring it Public Record, and cutting their PR losses before the civil trial(s) get underway.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 08, 2009, 10:13:11 pm
I was wrong, KOTV also made an Open Records request and has already recieved their F**k-Off notice from OHP:

OHP Denies DashCam Video Request

OKLAHOMA CITY, OK -- The Oklahoma Highway Patrol refuses to release their video of this clash between first responders.
Amateur video showed a trooper holding a paramedic by the neck.

OHP insisted video captured by their dash cameras would exonerate them and show that the fight started when one of the paramedics assaulted a trooper.

The News On 6 was told OHP couldn't release their dashcam video because it was part of an investigation.  The criminal investigation wrapped up on Friday, and The News On 6 filed the paperwork to see the video, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol denied the request, saying their video wasn't covered by the federal Open Records Act. 


 


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hoss on June 08, 2009, 10:40:35 pm
I was wrong, KOTV also made an Open Records request and has already recieved their F**k-Off notice from OHP:

OHP Denies DashCam Video Request

OKLAHOMA CITY, OK -- The Oklahoma Highway Patrol refuses to release their video of this clash between first responders.
Amateur video showed a trooper holding a paramedic by the neck.

OHP insisted video captured by their dash cameras would exonerate them and show that the fight started when one of the paramedics assaulted a trooper.

The News On 6 was told OHP couldn't release their dashcam video because it was part of an investigation.  The criminal investigation wrapped up on Friday, and The News On 6 filed the paperwork to see the video, but the Oklahoma Highway Patrol denied the request, saying their video wasn't covered by the federal Open Records Act. 


 

Isn't that just convenient.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 09, 2009, 11:45:39 am
What do you want to bet the tape gets "reused" before anything else can happen. I'm sure they reuse tapes that are of no evidentiary value (to them) and since the "investigation" is wrapped up it no longer has a purpose for them.   The paramedic sues for slander or battery (I'd take the case just to see the tape), subpoena's that tape and it's gone.

Next time I get a ticket from OHP I'm going to claim I have a video camera that totally exonerates me from any wrongdoing.   When they ask to see it I'll tell them I'm investigating the incident  When they demand again to see I'll just say no, but really really it shows what I say it does.

I call shenanigans.

Someone file an open records request with the court and get an order for it to be released.  Certainly they would fight it, but I think a strong case could be made that the record is of the type anticipated in the Act and the interest of the public outweighs any interest the OHP has in keeping it a secret (a legit interest I can not think of).   It could expand the scope of the Open Records Act or at least clarify that it does not ONLY relate to the limit items outlined in the Act.  It should apply to all records that contain no confidential information (tape of a strip search w/o release waiver) for which the public or private interest of releasing the information outweighs the governmental interest of keeping it secret.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Townsend on June 09, 2009, 11:48:40 am
I'm guessing but I'd be surprised if it's not destroyed already.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 09, 2009, 12:33:03 pm
I'm guessing but I'd be surprised if it's not destroyed already.

Your guess is probably right, because it's likely the only thing it would prove right now is perjury.

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/OHP-Dash-Cam-Video-Denied/_HlrGO3BVEKxhhpovzMgcQ.cspx


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Townsend on June 10, 2009, 12:43:23 pm
So the dash cam of a deputy tazing a crazy 72 year old is released to prove she was being uncooperative is released in Austin.

If that can be released then surely the dash cam of an OHP officer could be released to prove he's not a racist with anger issues.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31202935/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31202935/)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 10, 2009, 02:19:37 pm
OHP released a dashcam a few years ago when a Trooper was murdered as evidence against the suspect.

OHP dashcams are used frequently as evidence in DUI cases against the suspects.

I'm seeing a trend.  When it helps the State, they are released.  Otherwise, it's a secret.  I still can't think of a good reason to keep it a secret.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 10, 2009, 03:25:11 pm
OHP released a dashcam a few years ago when a Trooper was murdered as evidence against the suspect.

OHP dashcams are used frequently as evidence in DUI cases against the suspects.

I'm seeing a trend.  When it helps the State, they are released.  Otherwise, it's a secret.  I still can't think of a good reason to keep it a secret.

Not if things went down as the troopers claim, there's no reason not to release it.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: DTowner on June 10, 2009, 04:03:34 pm
If a civil lawsuit has been or is reasonably likely to be filed by the paramedics, destroying the tape could have serious negative ramifications.  Spoliation (love that word) of evidence is not looked kindly upon by the courts.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 10, 2009, 04:36:09 pm
If a civil lawsuit has been or is reasonably likely to be filed by the paramedics, destroying the tape could have serious negative ramifications.  Spoliation (love that word) of evidence is not looked kindly upon by the courts.

Lets see how that might play out...

The dashcam video becomes public record and numerous high-level careers fall in the ensuing corruption and perjury scandals,
or

OHP pays out a settlement of, oh, lets say $2.5 million among the plaintiffs, the legislature appropriates the money without so much as a blink, and it's back to business as usual for the OHP.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20090519_298_0_Fwrtop715918

Seems like it would have been so much easier if the department had the integrity to take ownership of it's mistakes, rather than paint themselves into a corner.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 11, 2009, 07:35:03 am
OHP pays out a settlement of, oh, lets say $2.5 million among the plaintiffs, the legislature appropriates the money without so much as a blink, and it's back to business as usual for the OHP.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20090519_298_0_Fwrtop715918

They needed $2.5mil to prevent furloughs . . .

Quote
Legislative leaders and Gov. Brad Henry agreed Tuesday to kick in an extra $2.5 million for the Department of Public Safety to keep Highway Patrol troopers from facing furloughs. . . Officials said the $2.5 million will allow a new headquarters in north-central Oklahoma to go forward.

. . . but then they are going to use the $2.5million to build a new regional headquarters?

Oh, well then, that makes sense.  Hey guys, I need to raise funds to save starving orphans (and to remodel my bathroom).  I simply can't do both, so save the orphans please.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 11, 2009, 11:16:50 am
Yesterday Trooper Martin told the Fox News Network he blames his enraged behavior on the War in Iraq, from which he recently returned.
Comforting to think Oklahomans are being treated the way we treat Iraqis.

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/22476277/nowhere-to-hide.htm

The reporter briefly touches on the mystery woman in the front seat of the trooper's car, as well. 


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: FOTD on June 12, 2009, 09:32:50 am
It was the troopers wife which could be part of the environment that made him so angry.....

The trooper better mea culpa or O'Carrol will file a civil suit. The EMT seems like a genuine good person. The trooper resembles angry white men many of which hang out with us here!


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 12, 2009, 11:27:03 am
Yesterday Trooper Martin told the Fox News Network he blames his enraged behavior on the War in Iraq, from which he recently returned.
Comforting to think Oklahomans are being treated the way we treat Iraqis.

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/22476277/nowhere-to-hide.htm

The reporter briefly touches on the mystery woman in the front seat of the trooper's car, as well. 

Similar to alcoholic and addict behavior, it's always someone else's fault.

Is this trooper still on active duty?  If so, why?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 12, 2009, 11:31:47 am
Similar to alcoholic and addict behavior, it's always someone else's fault.

Is this trooper still on active duty?  If so, why?

The last report I read, he was never removed from duty in any way.  He has continued to be on patrol throughout this.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Townsend on June 12, 2009, 11:34:17 am
On administrative leave

http://www.kjrh.com/content/news/2viewgc/story/Trooper-placed-on-leave-after-scuffle/YgnLrhev50-4-GNJy_xicw.cspx (http://www.kjrh.com/content/news/2viewgc/story/Trooper-placed-on-leave-after-scuffle/YgnLrhev50-4-GNJy_xicw.cspx)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 12, 2009, 12:18:14 pm
"Repeatedly, and as recently as yesterday, FOX23 had asked OHP if the trooper had been placed on leave and OHP's response, was no."

They lied to them about that for a week, and it wasnt until a reporter knocked on the trooper's door that the trooper admitted he had been on paid leave since June 1.
I guess when deception is so easy and routine they really dont care what anyone thinks.

Martin may have a long wait at taxpayer expense:  The Bixby OHP trooper Rowland is going on, what, 8 months paid leave for his "investigation" after he was turned in by fellow troopers for repeatedly kicking a handcuffed woman.  And the dashcam video of that also remains secret.

Im still amazed that the department that many regard as the top shelf of law enforcement in Oklahoma insists on sinking to the level of the worst, and I imagine a lot of honest cops are shaking their heads in shame and disbelief.

So, where is the 'shock and indignation' from our representatives?
Jari Askins?  Lucky Lamons?
Where do they stand on this, and on reform? 


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 12, 2009, 03:13:47 pm
This keeps getting more and more dirty.  The dashcam video is a secret.  Whether or not the guy is working is a secret.  What gives?

Honestly, I think the behavior of the department is far worse than the behavior of the officer.  The officer's behavior was clearly wrong from what we have seen (only one side, but the other side refuses to release their side so . . .) and he is blame shifting.  But he's "just" an officer, in the moment he could have been frustrated, having a bad day, or misunderstood what was going on.  It doesn't excuse his behavior in any way, but it still may be so.

But apparently the demonstration of the OHP has systematically decided the public has no right to know the truth.  Has decided they can decide what the open records act pertains to.  And that they can lie to the media as they see fit.  THAT'S THE DISTURBING PART OF ALL THIS.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 12, 2009, 03:36:47 pm
The OHP is acting like a bunch of brown shirts.  Wait a second....they DO wear brown shirts don't they?!


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: FOTD on June 12, 2009, 04:23:20 pm


So, where is the 'shock and indignation' from our representatives?
Jari Askins?  Lucky Lamons?
Where do they stand on this, and on reform? 


When you know most of your supporters would be outraged at such condemnation you tend to look the other way. How do you think evil grows? The devil depends on mean people.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 13, 2009, 12:56:17 am
The assault:  Trooper Martin lunges at Paramedic White.
Lots of gaps in the audio, tape wrinkles, low resolution copy.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: swake on June 13, 2009, 07:36:37 am
The assault:  Trooper Martin lunges at Paramedic White.
Lots of gaps in the audio, tape wrinkles, low resolution copy.

The video only makes this worse. This trooper has serious anger issues. He wasn't behind the ambulance for 10 seconds before they moved off to the side and you can't see ANY hand gesture at all, rude or otherwise and he doesn't say anything about it when he passes the ambulance, and this hothead certainly would have. The hand gesture is completely made up late in the game when he figures out he's gone overboard and is on camera.

The way he just goes ballistic when he pulls over the ambulance is scary. If it hadn't been for the family of the lady in the ambulance with the camera I feel quite certain the paramedic was going to end up beaten and arrested. There is no way someone like this should be a cop.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 13, 2009, 11:09:11 pm
This keeps getting more and more dirty.  The dashcam video is a secret.  Whether or not the guy is working is a secret.  What gives?

Honestly, I think the behavior of the department is far worse than the behavior of the officer.  The officer's behavior was clearly wrong from what we have seen (only one side, but the other side refuses to release their side so . . .) and he is blame shifting.  But he's "just" an officer, in the moment he could have been frustrated, having a bad day, or misunderstood what was going on.  It doesn't excuse his behavior in any way, but it still may be so.

But apparently the demonstration of the OHP has systematically decided the public has no right to know the truth.  Has decided they can decide what the open records act pertains to.  And that they can lie to the media as they see fit.  THAT'S THE DISTURBING PART OF ALL THIS.

Apparently, the Open Records Act was quietly amended in 2005 to make secret a number of records that had been public, including information about use of force by state troopers, police dog searches, lawsuits and legal actions involving the DPS, and dashcam video.
(OKLA. STAT. tit. 51, § 24A.3(1)(h)(1-3) (effective Nov. 1, 2005)
http://foioklahoma.blogspot.com/2009/06/ohp-releases-dashboard-camera-video.html

Apparently that year the DPS became angry at being forced to turn over data that might have established trends in police abuse, and convinced sympathetic state legislators to castrate the Open Records Act where it relates to the DPS and OHP.

Now that we have seen to what extent those exemptions have been abused, we might ask a state Representative like Lucky Lamons if he would pursue legislation to repeal the 2005 exemptions to dash camera video being public record (unless of course he was one of the legislators that got dashcam video declared a state secret in the first place).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCw0XjHNzZ4[/youtube]

The video released late Friday night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCw0XjHNzZ4
http://www.fox23.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=39320@koki.dayport.com
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20090613_12_A1_OKLAHO939517



Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hawkins on June 15, 2009, 04:55:37 pm
I must say this is the most polite discussion on this subject I can find online.

Channel 6 and 8's websites are filled with outrage towards the patrol officer in their article discussion threads.

This is a publicity nightmare for the OHP.

--

Update: The dashcam video is now frontpage news at MSN.com.

A publicity nightmare.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: jiminy on June 15, 2009, 09:30:38 pm
The video only makes this worse. This trooper has serious anger issues. He wasn't behind the ambulance for 10 seconds before they moved off to the side and you can't see ANY hand gesture at all, rude or otherwise and he doesn't say anything about it when he passes the ambulance, and this hothead certainly would have. The hand gesture is completely made up late in the game when he figures out he's gone overboard and is on camera.

The way he just goes ballistic when he pulls over the ambulance is scary. If it hadn't been for the family of the lady in the ambulance with the camera I feel quite certain the paramedic was going to end up beaten and arrested. There is no way someone like this should be a cop.

The hand gesture was when the ambulance passed by when he was at the gas station.  That's why he took out after them, and that's what started this whole thing.  Lots of ways the ambulance crew could have avoided this situation:  yield to the emergency vehicle, don't flip off the guy for telling you about it, don't jump out when you are stopped acting like you are the one in charge (you are not), don't resist arrest... the trooper is pretty high-strung and clearly believes that the loudest guy is the one in charge, but I don't see where he is "ballistic" or out of control.  I think the tape pretty much corroborates his story.  Bottom line, this is just another example of people thinking they don't have to do what the police say.  Whether you think they are right or wrong, they have to be in charge of the situation, and when that control is threatened, they deal with it however they can.  Here the guy yells a bit and tries to arrest the instigator.  Another guy might have tasered him.  Would have made for better video. 


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 15, 2009, 10:39:15 pm
I find it pretty lame that a hand gesture is enough to get pulled over.  What is it just cause that he might have another hand gesture in the car?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 15, 2009, 11:26:47 pm
The hand gesture was when the ambulance passed by when he was at the gas station.  That's why he took out after them, and that's what started this whole thing.  Lots of ways the ambulance crew could have avoided this situation:  yield to the emergency vehicle, don't flip off the guy for telling you about it, don't jump out when you are stopped acting like you are the one in charge (you are not), don't resist arrest... the trooper is pretty high-strung and clearly believes that the loudest guy is the one in charge, but I don't see where he is "ballistic" or out of control.  I think the tape pretty much corroborates his story.  Bottom line, this is just another example of people thinking they don't have to do what the police say.  Whether you think they are right or wrong, they have to be in charge of the situation, and when that control is threatened, they deal with it however they can.  Here the guy yells a bit and tries to arrest the instigator.  Another guy might have tasered him.  Would have made for better video. 

Im betting the vast majority of people dont agree that a law enforcement professional peeling out from an emergency call (lasting all of 18 seconds) to chase down an ambulance he perceived insulted him was really a good example of "deal with it however they can".

The documented behavior was more like that of a meth tweaker or steroid rage than someone in the service of the public.  As far as "resisting arrest," that isnt as sacred as some might think, as various courts (on up to the SCOTUS) have upheld the right of citizens to resist an unlawful arrest.  http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

The paramedic's attorney summed it up nicely:
"He was lawfully behaving against an unlawful action and in this state, that's appropriate," said attorney Richard O'Carroll.  "if the policeman's actions are inappropriate, you have a right to reasonably resist."

I can only imagine the silent pain that honorable OHP retirees are feeling right now, seeing what their department has become.



Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 16, 2009, 06:57:11 am
Lots of ways the ambulance crew could have avoided this situation:  yield to the emergency vehicle,

He did yield, it may not have been immediate but he did.  I had the same thing happen to me the other day. 

Quote

don't flip off the guy for telling you about it,

According the the paramedic, the driver raised his hands in the "what" gesture, and did not flip off the trooper. In any case, it does not matter.  This is where our freedom of speech comes in.  He can flip the trooper off all day long and the trooper should just smile.  Getting in their face about it is out of line

Quote
don't jump out when you are stopped acting like you are the one in charge (you are not), don't resist arrest.

The paramedic got out to find out what was going on.  As he states in his report, he saw a woman in the passanger seat of the patrol car and thought that the trooper needed their help with her.  And Yes, he was in charge of the ambulance, and when he informed the trooper that there was a patient in the back and they could deal with it at the hospital, it should have stopped there and tickets/arrests could have happened after the patient was dealt with.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 16, 2009, 07:43:17 am
No no no.  "It didn't register" when he was told that there was a patient in the back.  Or so he said via his attorney yesterday.

I'm going to try that sometime.  "Sir, show my your hands."  ::me not showing hands::  When I get beat down can I just say it didn't register the first time?  Or maybe it "didn't register" to the paramedic that he has to pull over for the OHP.   

To me it is clear that the ambulance didn't realize there was a trooper behind him for a period of 5 seconds or so, which I have to imagine is very common for larger vehicles when a trooper comes up without siren at ~80 mph.  The 'bus' then gets over a little and the trooper passes with a somewhat snide remark.  The trooper gets to the "emergency" and the ambulance passes him, allegedly flipping him off (which is perfectly legal, though in poor taste).

At which point the ambulance becomes more important than whatever the emergency was that justified 85+mph on the public roadway.  Upon stopping the EMT in charge got out of the back, which is ill advised, but acted in a calm and rational manner. He claims he got out because there was a woman in the front seat and thought it was a medical emergency (it was the Troopers wife).  It was the officer that was swearing, making threats and advancing on people.  The paramedic very clearly informed him that he had a patient in the back and that they could handle this situation at the hospital after delivering the patient, saying "sir" and speaking clearly.  The EMT repeatedly informed the Trooper that he was responsible for the ambulance and questions should be directed to him and that they needed to leave.  The Trooper attempted to then arrest the EMT who successfully resisted. Backup arrive and the Trooper again tried to arrest the EMT. The trooper claims he was then again assaulted by the EMT who grabbed him.  The only way to get the EMT to release him was to "choke off his air supply."   After a crowd gathers and he sees the video camera he decides it is in the interest of the public to let the patient go to the hospital.  After talking to his supervisor on his way there he decides it is in the best interest of the citizens to not arrest the EMT and issues a warning for failure to yield.

He then lies about details in his report to make it more favorable to him (he wasn't running with his lights and sirens on as REQUIRED by State Law for emergency vehicles breaking traffic laws [with limited exceptions he was not inside of] and the EMT did not assault him).  Can we issue a traffic citation to the OHP for video taping illegal behavior?  Certainly endangering the public by illegally running without a siren is just as bad as flipping off an officer or failing to yield to said illegal driving.

Why was his wife in the car?  Was it bring your wife to work day?  Someone said it wasn't against OHP policy, but I wonder if his "manhood" had to be upheld in front of his wife.

Quote
To protect and serve with pride, respect, and dignity.

Did the ambulance behave perfectly?  No.  But they are not trained to handle hostile situations and control people.  The Officer is supposed to be the most calm and collected person on the scene.  In this instance, the relatives of the patient were more in control than the officer was.  The stop never should have happened.  His pride was hurt and he had to puff his chest.  After he initiated the stop the Trooper was committed to proving that he was either in the right or more powerful, or both.

Is it the end of the world?  Of course not.  But it is a good example of authority being hell bent on proving their authority just for the sake of it.  All for failing to yield to the OHP for 5 seconds.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 16, 2009, 07:52:14 am
Trooper Martin is an embarrassment to the state and citizens of Oklahoma.  We don't need guys like this with a short fuse wearing a badge and assuming that badge gives them the right to shake down anyone they want and to be an excuse for an overage of testosterone.

Trooper Martin needs to be fired.  If he'd do this to a paramedic while there is someone in his ambulance with chest pain, what would he do to anyone else? 


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 16, 2009, 11:33:40 am
Now to play the devils advocate here, I could swear I heard the siren when he first approached the ambulance.  Now with the gear in the ambulance it is very likely they didn't hear it, but I think it was running.  I can't double check right now since this computer doesn't have any sound.  However, the OHP that came up on me just a few days ago was running siren and I didn't hear them until they were right behind me.  But given the driving situation that the ambulance faced (car pulling off the road in front of them), their attention was focused where it should have been, forward.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: sgrizzle on June 16, 2009, 12:12:17 pm
Now to play the devils advocate here, I could swear I heard the siren when he first approached the ambulance.  Now with the gear in the ambulance it is very likely they didn't hear it, but I think it was running.  I can't double check right now since this computer doesn't have any sound.  However, the OHP that came up on me just a few days ago was running siren and I didn't hear them until they were right behind me.  But given the driving situation that the ambulance faced (car pulling off the road in front of them), their attention was focused where it should have been, forward.

Paramedic said the patient was having an anxiety issue and running the siren would've likely made it worse. It was a medical decision.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: FOTD on June 16, 2009, 12:39:49 pm
Now to play the devils advocate here, I could swear I heard the siren when he first approached the ambulance.  Now with the gear in the ambulance it is very likely they didn't hear it, but I think it was running.  I can't double check right now since this computer doesn't have any sound.  However, the OHP that came up on me just a few days ago was running siren and I didn't hear them until they were right behind me.  But given the driving situation that the ambulance faced (car pulling off the road in front of them), their attention was focused where it should have been, forward.

Hey. FOTD is the only devil's advocate that shows up on TNF.

Anybody notice the white car keeping the EMT from pulling over immediately as the OHP troofer passed by? Kinda hard to run an innocent car off the road.

Beat this dead horse all you want. Angry white men are all over this place.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=7848035&page=1

More great National Press for Dumbf@#kistan!


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Gaspar on June 16, 2009, 12:49:54 pm
Sounds like a cluster on both sides of this argument.

Spank them, then have their mommies make them apologize to each other.

Embarrassing that this had to make national news.

But, I'm glad that we're getting known for something other than Dog rape!


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 16, 2009, 12:58:12 pm
Now to play the devils advocate here, I could swear I heard the siren when he first approached the ambulance.  Now with the gear in the ambulance it is very likely they didn't hear it, but I think it was running.  I can't double check right now since this computer doesn't have any sound.  However, the OHP that came up on me just a few days ago was running siren and I didn't hear them until they were right behind me.  But given the driving situation that the ambulance faced (car pulling off the road in front of them), their attention was focused where it should have been, forward.

Type III ambulances are insulated to protect occupants ears from their own +300 watt siren(s) so it's not likely they would hear a siren down the road behind them.  Add air conditioning and equipment noises and the outside world becomes inaudible inside a moving ambulance.  This I know from ride-alongs.

Sgrizzle is correct in that the use of sirens is a medical decision based on how not to further aggravate a stressed patient, and represents the most common mode of transport.  Any LEO should know those facts, as well as the fact that above a certain speed you "outrun" your own siren just as you can "outrun" your headlights at night.  Playing dumb isnt going to get the OHP out of the corner they painted themselves into.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Gaspar on June 16, 2009, 01:05:23 pm
Any LEO should know those facts, as well as the fact that above a certain speed you "outrun" your own siren just as you can "outrun" your headlights at night.  Playing dumb isnt going to get the OHP out of the corner they painted themselves into.

I agree with your post with exceptions.
You need to go 764 miles per hour to outrun the siren, and 670,616,630 miles per hour to outrun your headlights.  Now I didn't see a report on how fast the ambulance was going, but I'm betting it was not exceeding 764 miles per hour.

Having driven an ambulance, I assure you that you can't hear anything from the outside world.  Horns, sirens, anything.  your radio, your speed alert, the engine, and G-force warning (keeps you from tipping over) are what you hear.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 16, 2009, 01:06:48 pm
Paramedic said the patient was having an anxiety issue and running the siren would've likely made it worse. It was a medical decision.

What I meant is that I thought that it sounded like on the video that the OHP was running their siren.  However, as patric points out, you can "outrun" your siren, so that even though you can hear it, that doesn't mean that it can be heard much further ahead of you.  However, this is a moot point since as patric explained, they wouldn't have heard them regardless.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 16, 2009, 01:08:18 pm
I agree with your post with exceptions.
You need to go 764 miles per hour to outrun the siren, and 670,616,630 miles per hour to outrun your headlights.  Now I didn't see a report on how fast the ambulance was going, but I'm betting it was not exceeding 764 miles per hour.

Having driven an ambulance, I assure you that you can't hear anything from the outside world.  Horns, sirens, anything.  your radio, your speed alert, the engine, and G-force warning (keeps you from tipping over) are what you hear.

I'm taking outrunning your siren as moving at a speed fast enough that by the time anyone can hear them, you are already coming up on them to the point that reactions are going to be delayed


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 16, 2009, 01:11:47 pm
Hey. FOTD is the only devil's advocate that shows up on TNF.

Anybody notice the white car keeping the EMT from pulling over immediately as the OHP troofer passed by? Kinda hard to run an innocent car off the road.

Beat this dead horse all you want. Angry white men are all over this place.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=7848035&page=1

More great National Press for Dumbf@#kistan!

For once I'll agree.  This is one angry white guy (trooper) who needs to be fired.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: FOTD on June 16, 2009, 01:18:40 pm
For once I'll agree.  This is one angry white guy (trooper) who needs to be fired.

Come now, Conan. That's so humbling.

Drinks on me....


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 16, 2009, 01:19:33 pm
Water?? What's water?? Oh yeah, it's a mixer.



Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 16, 2009, 01:22:45 pm
For once I'll agree.  This is one angry white guy (trooper) who needs to be fired.
I agree as well


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: FOTD on June 16, 2009, 01:29:57 pm
There, made it right.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Townsend on June 16, 2009, 01:35:16 pm
There, made it right.

And even righter...

(http://marshallbrewing.com/images/beerhome.jpg)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Gaspar on June 16, 2009, 01:45:57 pm
And even righter...

(http://marshallbrewing.com/images/beerhome.jpg)
Watch out or you may be accused of being a Righty.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: jne on June 16, 2009, 02:12:07 pm
I agree as well

No point in restating all of the blatantly obvious points made so far.  so +1, angry Anglo and what not....


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 16, 2009, 02:17:07 pm
Had a couple conversations today with people:

- A client who is a police officer said that a "single handed choke" is not a tactical hold.  It is potentially dangerous as it can damage the wind pipe and doesn't afford a tactical advantage to the officer (the person can use his free hands to knock the hold off with ease, unless he is otherwise restrained.  In which case the hold is not required).  

- A friend who works as an EMT saw the video (does not live in Oklahoma) and emailed me asking if it is getting attention.  I asked him to make some comments . . . his first comment was that he runs 75% of the time without his siren on.   But no siren = follow traffic laws.  He went on to say that it didn't seem unusual for the ambulance to wait some seconds before realizing the officer was there and pulling over.  He added that he'd be surprised to hear a snarky comment on an emergency band and would probably flip the guy off.


Also, I forgot to mention in my previous posts:  

Why did OHP lie about this man being on suspension?

Why did you need to "come in hot" for backup on a report of a stolen vehicle?  (why did you leave inside 20 seconds?)

Why did you need to floor it, run a stop sign, and blow by a school zone to issue a warning for a failure to yield misdemeanor traffic violation?


The more I look into it, the less wiggle room the OHP officer has in my book.



Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Gaspar on June 16, 2009, 02:24:46 pm
Na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye
Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 16, 2009, 03:14:43 pm
Had a couple conversations today with people:

- A client who is a police officer said that a "single handed choke" is not a tactical hold.  It is potentially dangerous as it can damage the wind pipe and doesn't afford a tactical advantage to the officer (the person can use his free hands to knock the hold off with ease, unless he is otherwise restrained.  In which case the hold is not required).  

- A friend who works as an EMT saw the video (does not live in Oklahoma) and emailed me asking if it is getting attention.  I asked him to make some comments . . . his first comment was that he runs 75% of the time without his siren on.   But no siren = follow traffic laws.  He went on to say that it didn't seem unusual for the ambulance to wait some seconds before realizing the officer was there and pulling over.  He added that he'd be surprised to hear a snarky comment on an emergency band and would probably flip the guy off.


Also, I forgot to mention in my previous posts:  

Why did OHP lie about this man being on suspension?

Why did you need to "come in hot" for backup on a report of a stolen vehicle?  (why did you leave inside 20 seconds?)

Why did you need to floor it, run a stop sign, and blow by a school zone to issue a warning for a failure to yield misdemeanor traffic violation?


The more I look into it, the less wiggle room the OHP officer has in my book.



"single handed choke" ... nice


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: jiminy on June 16, 2009, 07:48:31 pm
The EMT crew is lying when they say the trooper didn't have his siren on; that's clear from the video.  They are lying when they say they didn't see him coming; that's right there in the medic's report.  They are lying when they say the medic got out to see if the trooper's passenger needed help.  Trooper's first words "Here! Now!".  Medic: "No, YOU now!"  Confrontational from the start.  Never a peek at the trooper's passenger.  Physically positioning himself between the trooper and the driver with an aggressive posture.  They are probably lying about the finger gesture as well. I don't believe the trooper, agitated as he might be, took out after them for a shrug.  Call it free speech if you want, but if you ran a red light and a cop caught up with you at the next light and told you through your window "I saw what you did back there, you better watch that", would you respond by flipping him the bird?  And if you would, would you then be surprised if the cop went ahead and pulled you over and wrote you up for the red light?  If you would, Creek EMT has a job for you, I guess... One thing I think most people don't get is that since the EMT wasn't "running code", they have to follow all traffic laws (including speed limits), and don't have right-of-way.  So, they should have pulled over BEHIND the car they passed, whose driver clearly DID hear the siren from in front of the ambulance and pulled over.  The trooper is not without blame for the escalation of the incident here, but I would put it about 75-25 on the EMT crew's actions.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 16, 2009, 09:46:49 pm
  Trooper's first words "Here! Now!".  Medic: "No, YOU now!" 

try watching the video again, and this time, turn up your speakers.  He says "Oh, you.  Now, what's the problem?"

And saying that the paramedics is lying about not seeing him coming is a pretty fast jump, since, as I've stated a couple of time before, I've had them come up on me without realizing they were there right away.  Also, don't be so quick to say they were lying about the siren.  As stated on this thread, those vehicles are insulated against sound, so it is very likely that they couldn't hear the siren, and also, they trooper was NOT running a siren when he stopped the ambulance.   And the ambulance did yeild, just not immediatly because first didn't realize the trooper was there, and then because they were passing a car that had pulled off to the side and couldn't.  As far as taking an aggressive posture against the trooper, hell, I think anyone being yelled at by an over anxious trooper should take an aggressive posture.  He had the door on the car opened before it was even stopped (you can hear it open as he is coming to a stop) and started yelling as soon as he got out.  I really wish they had tested him for drugs after this just to see what the results were.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 16, 2009, 11:23:24 pm
The EMT crew is lying when they say the trooper didn't have his siren on; that's clear from the video.  They are lying when they say they didn't see him coming; that's right there in the medic's report.

Let's see what the medic's report says:
"As were passing through the town of Paden I noticed a state patrol car approaching from the rear at a very high rate of speed.  The cruiser was traveling with the emergency lights only; I did not hear the sound of a siren."
http://www.fox23.com/content/ohp-emt/default.aspx

So, they should have pulled over BEHIND the car they passed, whose driver clearly DID hear the siren from in front of the ambulance and pulled over.

Your second-guessing the driver of a multi-ton vehicle who cant just slam on the brakes and maintain control of the vehicle or the safety of it's occupants.  Rear-ending the car was not an option.

There are only so many straws one can grab at trying to deflect the blame from someone who clearly demonstrated he has issues.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 17, 2009, 06:55:28 am
Let's see what the medic's report says:
"As were passing through the town of Paden I noticed a state patrol car approaching from the rear at a very high rate of speed.  The cruiser was traveling with the emergency lights only; I did not hear the sound of a siren."
http://www.fox23.com/content/ohp-emt/default.aspx

And just to touch on this, this is white's perception, who was in the back of the ambulance facing the back.  He was not driving.  He does tell the driver (per his report) that the trooper is behind him and needs to get over, at which time he does.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: swake on June 17, 2009, 07:36:59 am
The EMT crew is lying when they say the trooper didn't have his siren on; that's clear from the video.  They are lying when they say they didn't see him coming; that's right there in the medic's report.  They are lying when they say the medic got out to see if the trooper's passenger needed help.  Trooper's first words "Here! Now!".  Medic: "No, YOU now!"  Confrontational from the start.  Never a peek at the trooper's passenger.  Physically positioning himself between the trooper and the driver with an aggressive posture.  They are probably lying about the finger gesture as well. I don't believe the trooper, agitated as he might be, took out after them for a shrug.  Call it free speech if you want, but if you ran a red light and a cop caught up with you at the next light and told you through your window "I saw what you did back there, you better watch that", would you respond by flipping him the bird?  And if you would, would you then be surprised if the cop went ahead and pulled you over and wrote you up for the red light?  If you would, Creek EMT has a job for you, I guess... One thing I think most people don't get is that since the EMT wasn't "running code", they have to follow all traffic laws (including speed limits), and don't have right-of-way.  So, they should have pulled over BEHIND the car they passed, whose driver clearly DID hear the siren from in front of the ambulance and pulled over.  The trooper is not without blame for the escalation of the incident here, but I would put it about 75-25 on the EMT crew's actions.


You simply have to be a cop, only a cop would defend this.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2009, 07:56:14 am
You simply have to be a cop, only a cop would defend this.

Agreed.

And MH2010 has been conspicuously silent on this as well....


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 17, 2009, 07:57:54 am
This horse is dying...


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: sgrizzle on June 17, 2009, 08:00:00 am
I wondered what kind of nutbag could watch the videos, hear the reports and side with the officer.

Now I know.

Being a police (or other) officer requires a high degree of confidence and ego to exude authority and do your job well. Unfortunately some people go to far and feel the need to demonstrate the magnitude of their manhood, especially in front of their wife.

1. The ambulance driver made the right decision not to use sirens (medical)
2. The ambulance driver pulled over in a reasonable amount of time given the fact there was a car no the shoulder, limited visibility in an ambulance, and fact it drives like oil tanker.
3. The officer was not held up significantly by the ambulance and made it to the call in plenty of time to spend 18 SECONDS there.
4. The officer had no business chasing the ambulance down other than he was pissed off (whether he was flipped off or not should not effect his actions)
5. The paramedic clearly and calmly states he is in charge and has a patient in route. There is no confusion, no-one else is talking at the time, he clearly ignores that fact and denies it to cover his behind.
6. The weird chokehold and other behavior clearly reflect the actions of a brawler and not a trained officer.
7. I hope I never run into this guy in the future when he's working mall security.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: sgrizzle on June 17, 2009, 08:01:42 am
Agreed.

And MH2010 has been conspicuously silent on this as well....

I'm sure he was hoping there would be some evidence or video to support the officer's claims. No-one wants to go against their own but also no-one wants to go down defending the guy who really did screw up.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: PepePeru on June 17, 2009, 08:23:37 am
I'm glad this has brought to light the complete undermining of any open records requirements for the OHP. 

Hopefully this law will be changed.  This law needs to be changed.  These types of incidents are happening with more frequency.  However, I'm not holding out hope for that.  These legislators are gutless cowards.

Who's going to protect us from the police?

These guys are proving more and more that they cannot & should not be trusted...and all these people wonder where the 'no-snitch' attitude is stemming from.



Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2009, 08:42:02 am
I'm glad this has brought to light the complete undermining of any open records requirements for the OHP. 

Hopefully this law will be changed.  This law needs to be changed.  These types of incidents are happening with more frequency.  However, I'm not holding out hope for that.  These legislators are gutless cowards.

Who's going to protect us from the police?

These guys are proving more and more that they cannot & should not be trusted...and all these people wonder where the 'no-snitch' attitude is stemming from.



Don't make it a generalization.  By and far the majority of LEOs are good, honest, decent hardworking folk.  The problem with their chosen profession is that it just takes that one lone person to make the rest of them look terrible.  This has been the case here.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: PepePeru on June 17, 2009, 08:55:45 am
Don't make it a generalization.  By and far the majority of LEOs are good, honest, decent hardworking folk.  The problem with their chosen profession is that it just takes that one lone person to make the rest of them look terrible.  This has been the case here.

I just wonder how much longer that excuse will work...
I can rattle off some examples right off the top of my head

Martin attacking a EMT
El Paso
BART

You know there are many many more examples I could dig up.

It's becoming more and more frequent.  This 'contempt of cop' culture / attitude that these guys have adopted over the past decade.  The increasing militarization of our domestic police forces.  The increasing paranoid, delusional behavior these guys display.  That cannot be argued with.
Citizens are in desperate need of protection from these jack booted thugs.  By the time most of the people realize it, unfortunately it will be too late.  It probably is, again, thanks in part to gutless politicians who are more concerned with getting reelected and playing up their 'faith' rather than handle real issues that the public deals with.

Then you have people like Jiminy that defend the cops, no matter what evidence proves contrary. 
Well, the BART officer was only 25% responsible for shooting that handcuffed man in the back....






Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on June 17, 2009, 09:05:07 am
Here is another "worse" case

http://voices.kansascity.com/node/4156 (http://voices.kansascity.com/node/4156)

There is a video I don't have time to find.  But they even go as far as having a nurse come out and confirm his story.  Cop just ignores.  He pleads to let them take care of it in the hospital, later, etc etc.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2009, 09:12:51 am
I just wonder how much longer that excuse will work...
I can rattle off some examples right off the top of my head

Martin attacking a EMT
El Paso
BART

You know there are many many more examples I could dig up.

It's becoming more and more frequent.  This 'contempt of cop' culture / attitude that these guys have adopted over the past decade.  The increasing militarization of our domestic police forces.  The increasing paranoid, delusional behavior these guys display.  That cannot be argued with.
Citizens are in desperate need of protection from these jack booted thugs.  By the time most of the people realize it, unfortunately it will be too late.  It probably is, again, thanks in part to gutless politicians who are more concerned with getting reelected and playing up their 'faith' rather than handle real issues that the public deals with.

Then you have people like Jiminy that defend the cops, no matter what evidence proves contrary. 
Well, the BART officer was only 25% responsible for shooting that handcuffed man in the back....






Excuse?  That's three cases out of how many LEOs?

Now I'm far from an LEO apologist like some are, but you're painting them ALL with a bit of broad brush, dontcha think?

Maybe get one too many parking tickets or something?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 17, 2009, 09:15:18 am
Excuse?  That's three cases out of how many LEOs?

Now I'm far from an LEO apologist like some are, but you're painting them ALL with a bit of broad brush, dontcha think?

Maybe get one too many parking tickets or something?

Maybe he wound up spitting out tooth fragments one night after he drunkenly bucked up to a cop?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: buckeye on June 17, 2009, 09:26:15 am
This horse is dying...
Not a chance.  The OHP's behavior here is intolerable and we should make every effort to ensure its correction.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: PepePeru on June 17, 2009, 09:27:07 am
Excuse?  That's three cases out of how many LEOs?

Now I'm far from an LEO apologist like some are, but you're painting them ALL with a bit of broad brush, dontcha think?

Maybe get one too many parking tickets or something?

its absolutely an excuse.  

So, before you try to taint my point (that you two, conan & hoss, obviously can't refute) by attempting to use attacks on my character, you should know, my record is spotless.

I got pulled over ONCE in texas to illegally search me for drugs (I did not give him consent).  So, after 15 minutes of searching and not finding anything,  I got a warning for 'following too close' which was complete bullsh*t.

So, there's my experience with cops.

So, keep defending the indefensible.  You'll be the one to blame for it.




Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2009, 09:50:39 am
Not a chance.  The OHP's behavior here is intolerable and we should make every effort to ensure its correction.

I don't think any of us here are disputing that fact.  What I do think is that certain people are painting law enforcement with a broad brush when it comes to conduct.

I'll challenge Pepe to cite some references where the majority of LEOs are bad.  Just as you tell us to cite references that they're not.

I'll cite three personal references.  I know three PO's pretty well and am semi-related to one (through a relative by marriage).  Each has a spotless record and have no anger management issues that I know of.

But go on and make some more stuff up.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: PepePeru on June 17, 2009, 10:19:28 am
I don't think any of us here are disputing that fact.  What I do think is that certain people are painting law enforcement with a broad brush when it comes to conduct.

I'll challenge Pepe to cite some references where the majority of LEOs are bad.  Just as you tell us to cite references that they're not.

I'll cite three personal references.  I know three PO's pretty well and am semi-related to one (through a relative by marriage).  Each has a spotless record and have no anger management issues that I know of.

But go on and make some more stuff up.

So, Hoss.

Where are the cops denouncing Martin's behavior?
Do you honestly think he's going to lose his job over this?

You can accuse me of 'painting with a broad brush' all you'd like, but the "blue wall of silence" is certainly deafening in many of these cases, including this one.

By not denouncing this type of behavior, you're tacitly approving of it.

Some outright defend it too...25% trooper's fault my donkey.
This is what is just unconscionable & outrageous to me.



Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2009, 10:27:53 am
So, Hoss.

Where are the cops denouncing Martin's behavior?
Do you honestly think he's going to lose his job over this?

You can accuse me of 'painting with a broad brush' all you'd like, but the "blue wall of silence" is certainly deafening in many of these cases, including this one.

By not denouncing this type of behavior, you're tacitly approving of it.

Some outright defend it too...25% trooper's fault my donkey.
This is what is just unconscionable & outrageous to me.



Look through the post and stop putting words in my mouth.  I'm not defending in the least.  What I am defending, however, is people like yourself pi$$ing on other law enforcement officers by doing just what I say you are doing: painting with a broad brush.

Get over your cop-hater attitude.  It seems like a lot of people hate cops, until they need one.  You fall in that category I bet.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on June 17, 2009, 10:36:51 am
(http://www.steveaddison.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/flogging%20dead%20horse.jpg)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: PepePeru on June 17, 2009, 10:37:37 am
Look through the post and stop putting words in my mouth.  I'm not defending in the least.  What I am defending, however, is people like yourself pi$$ing on other law enforcement officers by doing just what I say you are doing: painting with a broad brush.

Get over your cop-hater attitude.  It seems like a lot of people hate cops, until they need one.  You fall in that category I bet.

When I need a cop...
I think you mean.....when a cop does his / her job?

I don't love people for doing their job.
I don't hate people for doing their job.

Power tripping and choking citizens is not part of it.
Assisting citizens, serving & protecting citizens is.




Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 17, 2009, 11:52:51 am
When I need a cop...
I think you mean.....when a cop does his / her job?

I don't love people for doing their job.
I don't hate people for doing their job.

Power tripping and choking citizens is not part of it.
Assisting citizens, serving & protecting citizens is.




Your attitude is that every cop out there is on a power trip.  Let me give you a couple of reasons that I should be the one hating all cops (and why I tend to have a bit of biased opinions on here against them).  I have had a family member on one occasion, and a friend on another occasion that there is no doubt in my mind they were killed by a cop for personal reasons.  On both occasions, the respective department turned a blind eye to the facts and refused to investigate their own.  For these reasons, Law Enforcement agencies and officers have a very black eye in my field of veiw.  However, I will not denounce every officer/trooper/deputy on the job because of this.  There are many out there that are doing their job, protecting those that need it, even those that may not deserve it.  There are officers that do so with such professionalism that it would make most blush.  However, this is what we expect of them, so they are not spashed across all the screens to let us know that they have done well.  While I think that the cops with attitudes like Martin are on the rise, they are still the exception, for the time being.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 17, 2009, 04:50:09 pm
Then you look at OHP's attitude throughout this, clearly the typical
"one bad apple" whitewash wouldnt be an effective remedy, but im just as
inclined to believe that there are members of the OHP (past and present)
that are as appalled as we are at how this was handled.

Sometimes you can blame "the department" when they foster an
environment of corruption, but you can still have honest cops at the
peripheral that dont partake in the forbidden fruit.
One current example might be the sheriff and undersheriff who got caught
in an FBI sting stealing cash from motorists.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090617_12_A9_MUSKOG952421

If the past is an indication, they will maintain their blamelessness as
long as they can grasp into the most irrelevant details that make their
victims look deserving.
Remember the truck driver who had the misfortune of having an OHP
trooper do a u-turn in front of him?
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071205_1_A13_spanc18175
Both the trooper and the truck driver died as a result of the trooper's
maneuver, but the OHP maintains the truck's brakes "weren't functioning
at 100 percent efficiency" so OHP blamed the victim.

At this writing, there's no resolution in sight.
No lawmakers have stepped forward to make sure nothing like this happens
again, nor revoke the exemptions DPS sought to keep critical records
like dashcam video state secrets.

So much for transparency.
...and Integrity...
...and Honesty...







Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on June 17, 2009, 05:47:09 pm
oh, no doubt that the department it'self has some serious oversight issues.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 21, 2009, 10:28:21 am
Shockingly predictable?
"Trooper in video known as bully"
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090621_12_A1_Inthis308813

Longtime Fairfax barber shop owner Linda Bevill described Martin as a bullish man who ran off teenagers from cruising Main Street and constantly accused residents of drinking alcohol during an endless stream of "unnecessary" traffic stops.

"He struck me as a man who probably didn't have any control over any part of his life growing up, someone who needed control and power," Bevill said. "I remember he even went and bought one of those portable police lights for his own car. He just needed to play cop even when he was off duty.
"He needed to be admired, but he could never figure out why people didn't like him. He just didn't have any feel for people. And he was always making something big out of nothing."


White had some flaws, too like Failure to complete run sheets in a timely manner, Short notice on cancellation of teaching assignment and Failure to schedule a relief EMT to cover his shift while he taught a class in a timely manner. 
Sounds like White was pure hell for some bean-counter.


Meanwhile, the Tulsa World interviewed one lawmaker responsible for gutting the Open Records Act to have dashcam video made secret.

Durant representative John Carey, who co-authored a long list of exclusions DPS wanted, told the World he had "no opinion" on whether or not dashcam video should be open to the public.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 23, 2009, 12:21:46 pm
OKLAHOMA CITY -- When police pull drivers over, many video tape everything, but there's one law enforcement agency that doesn't ever have to share that video and now some are asking why hide it?

Attorney Stephen Fabian never had a problem getting dash camera video from the Department of Public Safety until 2005 when he filed open records requests for video of his clients.

Fabian said dash cam video should fall under public information just like police reports.

Nearly 200,000 people have seen the full dash camera video of OHP Trooper Daniel Martin and paramedic Maurice White. After previously saying it was not public record, the Department of Public Safety went ahead and released it.

Attorney Stephen Fabian said the video never should have been withheld in the first place.

"It's the public's right to know what law enforcement is doing out there," said defense attorney Stephen Fabian, Jr. "Look at all the media. Every time someone gets arrested, you see the mug shot in the paper. That's all public information."

Fabian, a former general counsel for the Oklahoma Highway Patrol, has been fighting this battle for years. Four years ago, he sued DPS for access to dash cam video of his clients. A judge ruled in his favor but later that year, the legislature exempted DPS audio and video recordings from open records requests.

"Before the videos and without those videos, there's a lack of information, a lack of ability to challenge and contest what the government does. And that's the whole purpose of the Open Records Act is to make the government accountable and responsible," Fabian said.

NEWS 9 checked with the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Department, Del City Police, Midwest City Police and Edmond Police on their dash cam policies. In each case, all agencies release the video through open records requests.

Law enforcement agencies in other states are also quick to respond, even when the video is not favorable. Five police officers in Birmingham, Alabama lost their jobs after dash-cam video showed them beating an unconscious man who was thrown from his SUV after leading police on a high speed chase.

"Who would have believed that that video would have shown what it showed if they hadn't seen it? I mean it's like a revelation," Fabian said.

DPS is the only law enforcement agency that has its audio and video recordings exempted from open records requests. But OHP said it's not about secrecy, but privacy. Captain Chris West said audio and video recordings are not public record out of concerns for trooper safety and the privacy of all Oklahomans.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on June 26, 2009, 09:55:30 am
Its been more than a month now, and other than re-enforcing the worlds image of Oklahoma as a backwards  "Dukes of Hazard" state one has to wonder what has changed.

Will the consequence of this event be sweeping reforms to law enforcement, or only the OHP grabbing more witnesses cameras and cellphones?

One of the few Whirled editorials Im in agreement with, in Friday's paper:

Make trooper videos public
 By World's Editorial Writers
Published: 6/25/2009  2:25 AM

Next legislative session the Legislature needs to make it a priority to change a law pushed through by the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety in 2005. The law denies public access to videos shot from dashboard-mounted cameras in Oklahoma Highway Patrol vehicles.

Recently, it took weeks of pressure from news organizations for the OHP to release a video shot from Trooper Daniel Martin's patrol car that showed part of a controversial May 24 scuffle between Martin and a Creek Nation paramedic. Meanwhile, within hours, an amateur video of the incident shot by a citizen with a cell phone was available on the video Web site YouTube.com.

Oklahoma remains one of only four states that closes public access to videos shot from police dashboard cameras. The public-records exemption applies only to the Highway Patrol, not to other law enforcement agencies. A survey of regional states by the Tulsa World shows Texas, Missouri and Arkansas all treat state police dash camera videos as open records.

Until 2005 dash camera videos were considered public records in Oklahoma. Then the Department of Public Safety requested the Legislature amend state law to make all audio and video records closed to the public.

The amendment, part of a bill with many exemptions requested by DPS, sailed through the Legislature with little discussion.

Has DPS forgotten that it is a public agency? Taxpayers footed the bill for dashboard-mounted cameras and should be privy to the videos.

OHP spokesman Capt. Chris West claims the agency requested the audio and video recordings be closed to the public out of concerns for trooper safety and the privacy of residents.

We appreciate their great sensitivity but let's be realistic: Videos of such incidents rarely are sought by the public except in instances when there are questions about the behavior of a trooper or the party stopped. News organizations would not routinely air all video cam arrests. The May 24 incident is a good example of why taxpayers paid to have dashboard-mounted video cams.


The rest of the editorial:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=61&articleid=20090625_61_A14_Nextle594516


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 26, 2009, 12:12:47 pm
+1 to the Tulsa World.

1) It occurred in public.  Ergo, it is NOT a private matter. 

2) It is evidence of the behavior of the government.  If accused of wrongdoing they should have to tender it as evidence.  Since they are accountable to the public, this means showing it to the public.

3) It is evidence of individual behavior.  If the individual is accused of wrongdoing, they should have to tender the video as evidence.  Since the State is charging that individual with a crime, the public should have a right to know about it.

Privacy?  If a person is naked blur it out.  Otherwise, I find it difficult to guess what privacy interest a person has on a public roadway from inside another vehicle.  If the entire stop was deemed illegal, then the tape might be excluded - otherwise, it seems reasonable to release it just like any other police report.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 07, 2009, 07:39:40 am
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090707_12_A14_OKLAHO161740

The OHP Trooper is still on paid vacation as they wait for public interest to die down and reinstate him with no punishment try to decide what to do.

I've been trying to decide what screw up I can do at work to get 6+ weeks of paid vacation.  My honey-do list would get DESTROYED.  I'd finally find fish in Lake Keystone.  My sailboat would be in perfect working order.  My yard, immaculate.  It'd be amazing.  But every job I have you get punished when you screw up, not rewarded.

"Paid administrative leave" is a great concept.  So is "at will employee".  I have to think there is a happy middle ground somewhere.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on July 21, 2009, 10:38:18 am
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090707_12_A14_OKLAHO161740

The OHP Trooper is still on paid vacation as they wait for public interest to die down and reinstate him with no punishment try to decide what to do.

I've been trying to decide what screw up I can do at work to get 6+ weeks of paid vacation.  My honey-do list would get DESTROYED.  I'd finally find fish in Lake Keystone.  My sailboat would be in perfect working order.  My yard, immaculate.  It'd be amazing.  But every job I have you get punished when you screw up, not rewarded.

"Paid administrative leave" is a great concept.  So is "at will employee".  I have to think there is a happy middle ground somewhere.

The Paramedic's attorney is also of the opinion that the delaying tactic is typical of how OHP deals with their liabilities.

Their attitude was made a little clearer in the interview where the Trooper's Union lawyer called the trooper who attacked the paramedic "a hero"...


Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper Daniel Martin, caught on tape in a brawl with a paramedic transporting a patient, is a 'hometown hero,' his attorney, Gary James said in a press conference today.

Instead of being honored, James declared, Martin has received death threats, threats of a drive-by shooting, and had to take paid administrative leave to stay home and protect his family. Reeling off a list of Martin's recent service in the Middle East, and handing out copies of Oklahoma laws, James said that Martin acted appropriately during the now-infamous incident.

James laid the blame for the attention on both the media and paramedic Maurice White, who he said assaulted Martin and resisted arrest.  Adroitly poisoning the well, James several times alluded to problems with White, with comments like

    ...look into Maurice White's background

    ...I have emails from people whove worked with him

James displayed photos of bruises that Martin received when, James claimed, White assaulted the officer. In a long, rambling press conference, James repeatedly declared that the ambulance was not running "code"--with lights and/or siren--so legally was in the same class as a private vehicle.

Therefore, he said, the fact that the ambulance had a patient in the back had no bearing on the situation. Martin believed, he said, that the ambulance "deliberately cut him off" and refused to yield.

The confrontation eventually involved the District Attorney and Martin's troop commander on the phone, James recounted. He said that White was released only because officials determined that if White was arrested Ofuskgee County would be without ambulance service on that shift.

Martin "..is not on leave for punishment..he requested it....he's got 3 boys....they stay around the house...based on threats....posted on websites, emailed...Martin is fearful of leaving kids home," James said.

In April 2009 Martin was hailed as a "hometown hero" when he came home from a year's tour of duty with the U.S. Navy in Operation Enduring Freedom. Within two months Martin was "made out to be..everything," James declared, shaking his head as he added "he's not an ogre....he coaches Little League."

James hammered on the trooper's position that White disobeyed a legal order three times. Whtie, James said, resisted arrest, obstructed justice, and assaulted Martin.

He dropped a few amazing statements during the press conference, including the information that Oklahoma Highway Patrol dashcam are not "legal records" under Oklahoma law, nor are they part of public records.  Terming the ambulance "without authority or exemptions" under law, James said that White had no right to interfere with Martin stopping the dirver.

"A  person who will fight an armed officer is a danger to the public," James said as he declared that White continued to fight the officer and resist arrest. 
"I could pick on White all afternoon," he added.

White and his attorney have filed legal action and will most likely sue the state and Martin, James said.  However, he declared  "White's own statement proves he resisted arrest.....it doesn't matter if the police officer is wrong.....you can't fight him..."

James also claimed that Martin was grabbed by White in a choke hold and wrestled to the ground. He also said that White slammed his elbow into Martin's throat. However, the "wrestling to ground" episode is not shown in the dashcam video.

Troopers are  "justified to use whatever force"  they choose  when a suspect resists arrest, James said. When queried about why Martin hunted down the ambulance to confront the crew, James said that it was because he was worried about the "contempt" shown him by the alleged hand gesture.  When questioned about the trooper's shouting and cursing, James characterized it as "a command voice."

James also claimed Martin restraining White by the throat was an action that was justified.

http://www.examiner.com/x-6121-Oklahoma-Crime-Examiner%7Ey2009m6d15-Oklahoma-Highway-Patrol-trooper-a-hometown-hero-attorney-says


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 21, 2009, 11:41:01 am
I suppose they are still waiting to decide what to do.  Must be really complicated.  All sorts of stuff to figure out.

Does this count against the guys vacation time at least?

Quote
itdoesn't matter if the police officer is wrong.....you can't fight him...

Nice.  Do what the nice man with the gun says.  No questions please.  Ever.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: buckeye on July 21, 2009, 01:39:01 pm
I've never seen such underhanded misdirection and outright absurdity outside of a Hollywood movie.  The OHP loses the peoples' respect from the shenanigans of that stop and then makes it worse by hiring the evidently serpentine Gary James.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: custosnox on July 22, 2009, 07:41:21 am
and now the civil suits begin

http://www.kjrh.com/email/link/66791/8tfsP7X-G02yy4nFlJg6Dw/1.ashx


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: guido911 on July 22, 2009, 10:26:26 am
and now the civil suits begin

http://www.kjrh.com/email/link/66791/8tfsP7X-G02yy4nFlJg6Dw/1.ashx

Striking while the fire is hot. I would like to know whether a GTCA notice has been filed against OHP.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on July 22, 2009, 02:21:47 pm
Striking while the fire is hot. I would like to know whether a GTCA notice has been filed against OHP.
He waited 2 months for the DPS to act; they played possum instead.


IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA

Maurice White, Jr., Plaintiff
v.
Daniel Martin, individually,
while acting under color of law
on behalf of the STATE OF OKLAHOMA; Defendant.

COMPLAINT FOR DAMAGES
(Violation of Civil Rights)
Preliminary Statement

THIS ACTION is brought by Mr White for damages inflicted by Oklahoma State Highway Patrol Trooper, Daniel Martin.  At all times herein trooper Martin was acting under color of law and in his capacity as a state employee; however, Martin is being sued in his individual capacity and, as of yet, the State of Oklahoma is not being sued. The Plaintiff has filed a claim pursuant to the Government Tort Claims Act ("GTCA") and he reserves the right to amend this claim.  See Okla. Stat. tit. 51 ss 151-170.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 22, 2009, 02:47:52 pm
"Acting under the color of law" is a key phrase to trigger § 1983 of the Civil Rights Act (of 1871).  Basically, someone acting under the color of law violated your federally protected civil rights (which is why this is in Federal Court).  The OHP can be sued along with the officer, but the docket sheet doesn't name them as a party.



Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: guido911 on July 22, 2009, 06:12:38 pm
He waited 2 months for the DPS to act; they played possum instead.


Wow, a whopping 2 months. You are right, that's a freakin eternity.  ;)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on July 22, 2009, 06:38:18 pm
Wow, a whopping 2 months. You are right, that's a freakin eternity.  ;)


And here's the verdict from OHP:

5 days without pay,
and report to the company doctor.
period.

He'll be back on the streets by this time next week.

Hey after all, he is a "hero".
Irony is TPD have to take more time off for not misbehaving. :-[


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: guido911 on July 22, 2009, 06:45:31 pm
"Acting under the color of law" is a key phrase to trigger § 1983 of the Civil Rights Act (of 1871).  Basically, someone acting under the color of law violated your federally protected civil rights (which is why this is in Federal Court).  The OHP can be sued along with the officer, but the docket sheet doesn't name them as a party.



The OHP can only be sued in tort, which is why I wondered out loud earlier if a GTCA notice/tort claim had been presented. I noticed in reading the complaint that a tort claim has been presented.

Your post suggests that the OHP can be sued under 42 U.S.C. § 1983. The OHP, I believe, is a part of Oklahoma's Department of Public Safety, a state agency. The state of Oklahoma and its agencies, however, are immune in actions where monetary or damages or equitable damages are sought based upon the Eleventh Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. See, Florida Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services v. Florida Nursing Home Association, 450 U.S. 147, 149-150 101 S.Ct. 1032, 1034, 67 L.Ed.2d 132 (1981). This immunity applies to civil rights cases brought pursuant to 42 U.S.C. § 1983. Quern v. Jordan, 440 U.S. 332, 340-43, 99 S.Ct. 1139, 59 L.Ed.2d 358 (1979). In Kentucky v. Graham, 473 U.S. 159, 169, 105 S.Ct. 3099, 3107, 87 L.Ed.2d 114 (1985), the U.S. Supreme Court stated that “[t]he Court has held that, absent waiver by the State or valid congressional override, the Eleventh Amendment bars a damages action against a State in federal court."
   There is a second reason why a § 1983 cannot be brought against an Oklahoma agency such as DPS. In Will v. Michigan Department of State Police, 491 U.S. 58, 70-71, 109 S.Ct. 2304, 2312, 105 L.Ed.2d 45 (1989), the U.S. Supreme Court observed that “we hold that neither a State nor its officials acting in their official capacities are “persons” under § 1983.” The Court in Will went on:
A state official who is sued in his or her official capacity for nonprospective relief is not a “person” under § 1983, because (1) a state is not a “person” under § 1983, and (2) a § 1983 suit for nonprospective relief against a state official in his or her official capacity is not a suit against the official, but rather is a suit against the official’s office and, as such, is no different from a suit against a state itself.
This would explain why Maurice White sued Martin in his individual capacity.  



Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on July 22, 2009, 07:01:42 pm
The rest of the civil suit:

http://www.fox23.com/media/news/7/a/9/7a962bcf-b074-49b1-95cc-6e2231c723c3/OHPParamediclawsuit.pdf


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: TUalum0982 on July 22, 2009, 07:21:42 pm
wow I now have very little respect for OHP as a whole.  They called the way he handled that traffic stop "unprofessional".  IMO, if you are caught choking someone, that is more then unprofessional.  You are supposed to protect and servce the public, not CHOKE them.  I wasn't there, so I dont know the 100% truth, but I find it hard to believe an ambulance driver would flip off an OHP trooper as they drove by while trying to get to a hospital.

And like the person said above, this guy gets suspended 5 days without pay, and TPD is required to take 8 days no pay.  Something is wrong with this picture.

Also, on the last page of the report it states "The actions involving your conduct and disregard for the welfare of the patient justify sever discipline."  How is getting suspended 5 days without pay severe discipline?? Seriously?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 23, 2009, 07:59:10 am
Guido: 

You are correct.  §1983 creates a personal cause of action against the individual actor.  The suit against the OHP would have to be a companion on negligent hiring, supervision, discriminatory policies . . . a TORT basis for the suit.  I meant to imply that generally you see a companion case against the agency in such instances.  I have no practical experience with Color of Law cases.


On the broader issue:

As a result of pulling over an ambulance for insulting him and choking the driver, by all accounts handling a situation poorly if not illegally, the offender gets 2 months of paid vacation and a 5 day force furlough.  I would take that trade voluntarily.  What action can I take to get 40 days of paid vacation and 5 days of unpaid vacation?

Nothing the Trooper said turns out to be the truth or it is irrelevant.   The video shows the ambulance pulling over to the side of the road in a fairly reasonable amount of time.  The video shows that the trooper was not needed at the "emergency."  The video shows that the trooper blazed out into traffic to pull over the offender.  The video shows that the Trooper was informed in short order that there was a patient in the back.  The video does NOT show White assault the trooper.   The video shows the Trooper yelling, swearing, and using violence to enforce his will.  The person that was supposed to be collected and in charge was the one that appeared out of control.

Sorry.  I'm glad the ambulance driver said "I have a patient lets deal with this later."  Even if he flipped the trooper off for making a lippy comment on an ER channel, it doesn't matter.  The Trooper handled it badly.

And as a result he gets 2 months of vacation.  If I were in OHP I'd be looking for the same deal.  Maybe pull over a funeral possession and choke a widow - go for a little more vacation time.

[edit]
Furthermore:

1) Without the video being posted on youtube it is doubtful any "punishment" would have been forthcoming.

2) The OHP did nothing to help themselves by claiming the video showed how right the Trooper was and then refusing to release it.   Calling it a non-public record was BS.  Particularly when it was when it was released and didn't show what they had alluded that it would.

3) Still want 2 months off paid for screwing up.
[/edit]


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: guido911 on July 23, 2009, 08:46:00 am
Guido: 

You are correct.  §1983 creates a personal cause of action against the individual actor.  The suit against the OHP would have to be a companion on negligent hiring, supervision, discriminatory policies . . . a TORT basis for the suit. 

It really would not be a companion case. The Plaintiff would have to sue the OHP in STATE court unless the state consents to being sued in fed court per 11th Amendment. This happens all the time, a fed and state action based on the same set of facts/parties. If I am counsel for OHP, I would prefer to be in federal court.

As a side note, what are the plaintiff's damages in this case?


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on July 23, 2009, 08:55:46 am
As I understand it, § 1983 cases are famous for having minimal actual damages and large punitive damages.    It isn't so much to reward the person who had their rights violated ro to make them whole, as it is to punish the person who violated that person's rights under the color of law.  The theory being that police or other state entities are likely to circle the wagons, obstruct, and not punish their own.  So the Federal Courts were granted the power to do so in order to protect civil rights.

Also, there is sometimes an indemnity clause between the agency and the police union to cover any damages awarded as a result of the officers conduct while on duty.  Meaning the agency ends up paying or at very least defending an officer for his misconduct (in addition to any paid vacation he receives).  No idea if this is the case at OHP and I'm not implying it is.

Wasn't it interesting that they release his "punishment" the day after the civil suit was filed?

And thanks for explaining the companion case thing to me.  The few 1983 claims that I have followed were companion cases in Federal Court.  I wondered where the jurisdiction came from but under your scenario if makes sense.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on July 23, 2009, 10:05:52 am
Richard O'Carrol isn't stupid.  He wouldn't sue the trooper as an individual if he didn't think know there was a payoff here.  What are the chances the trooper has significant assets or won't file BK after judgement?  Zero would be my guess.

Do individual troopers have some sort of liability insurance which will pay up, or will the state be required to pay up on this block-head's behalf?

And, BTW, I think the trooper's punishment would be laughable if it didn't piss me off so bad.  There's no reason for hotheads like this to be patrolling our highways.  Send him back to the minor leagues and let him work security at Walgreens for $8.00 an hour.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on July 24, 2009, 12:17:21 pm
Damn, that's all we need is for this guy to run the speed traps south on highway 75... 


OKEMAH — An ambulance driver who was at the heart of a traffic stop that led to a scuffle between a state trooper and a paramedic believes the officer should be reassigned elsewhere.

Paul Franks said Trooper Daniel Martin should be reassigned to the Panhandle or to southeastern Oklahoma's Little Dixie.

Though Martin lives north of Okemah and patrols the Okfuskee County area, he works for the Oklahoma Highway Patrol's Troop D, which is based in McAlester, the reputed capital of "Little Dixie."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090724_12_A1_OKEMAH713489

And FOX discovered that "suspension" apparently doesnt include giving up your squad car:
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/5-Day-Suspension-For-OHP-Trooper/GCKoenPeYEWUTIhbmCnAsw.cspx


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: rwarn17588 on July 24, 2009, 12:26:02 pm
Richard O'Carrol isn't stupid.  He wouldn't sue the trooper as an individual if he didn't think know there was a payoff here.  What are the chances the trooper has significant assets or won't file BK after judgement?  Zero would be my guess.

Do individual troopers have some sort of liability insurance which will pay up, or will the state be required to pay up on this block-head's behalf?

And, BTW, I think the trooper's punishment would be laughable if it didn't piss me off so bad.  There's no reason for hotheads like this to be patrolling our highways.  Send him back to the minor leagues and let him work security at Walgreens for $8.00 an hour.

Post of the week.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on July 28, 2009, 10:48:30 am
Now that Trooper Martin is back on the job today protecting Oklahoma...


Being caught dead-to-rights on tape doesnt seem to have the impact it once did. 
Here's an incident where police were recorded sodomizing a man with a Taser and still walked:
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/25/idaho-man-sodomized-by-police-taser-plans-to-sue/

A Boise, Idaho, police officer who pushed a Taser inside a man’s buttocks and threatened to "Taser his balls" violated use-of-force policy, but didn't break the law, an ombudsman has found.

Believing police officers, who did not identify themselves, to be a person coming to "beat him up," he refused to allow them entry into his home.
When officers forced their way in, "three officers rushed in and within nine seconds, had the man face down on the floor and had deployed the Taser against the small of his back. Only after the first [tasing] did they order his hands behind his back," reports the Boise Weekly.

The Statesman printed a transcript of an audio recording of the altercation:

    Officer #3: Do you feel this?
    Complainant: Yes, sir.
    Officer #3: Do you feel that? That’s my Taser up your *ss.
    Complainant: Okay
    Officer #3: So don’t move.
    Complainant: I’m trying not to. I can’t breathe.
    …
    Officer #3: Now do you feel this in your balls?
    Complainant: I do, sir. I’m not going to move. I’m not gonna move.
    Officer #3 Now I’m gonna tase your balls if you move again.
    A minute later, this exchange occurred:
    Officer #3: Okay, I’m gonna take this Taser out of your a**hole now. Are you going to fight with me?
    Complainant: No, not at all, sir.

LISTEN to the first 3:43 of the arrest in which a Boise man was Tased while face down and handcuffed and his genitals fondled with the Taser. http://media.idahostatesman.com/smedia/2009/07/22/17/BPD_IA_July2009_Audio.source.prod_affiliate.36.mp3

Burns to the suspects anus were photographed 13 days later. http://www.boiseombudsman.org/InvestigativeReports/2009InvReports/09_0014PublicReport.pdf

The Boise Weekly quotes Boise Police Chief Mike Masterson as saying the allegation against the officer is "one of the most serious charges that an officer can face … It is an offense that is very likely to lead to termination."

But the complainant’s lawyer, Ron Coulter, said that the officer in question is still walking his beat.
Another report says Officer #3's supervisor was disciplined in May for failing to file a use of force report and for erasing a taped interview with the complainant on the night of the incident. The ombudsman also found that the Boise police did not identify themselves as officers of the law prior to entering the house.
http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/police-taser-in-genitals-sparks-investigations-brutality-suit/Content?oid=1115658


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on October 05, 2009, 10:43:14 am
And are we surprised that he is back at it again?

OHP Investigating New Accusations Against Trooper Daniel Martin

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=11255583

Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper Daniel Martin was accused of using excessive force during a scuffle with a paramedic back in May.
Martin has once again been put on paid administrative leave after Khristopher Douglas accused the trooper of throwing him to the ground and beating him with a nightstick without any explanation.


HOLDENVILLE, Oklahoma -- An Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper suspended for a fight with a paramedic in May is on paid administrative leave again after being accused of using excessive force.

This is the second time in five months that Trooper Daniel Martin has been placed on paid administrative leave. Martin was suspended earlier this year after cell phone video surfaced showing the trooper chocking a paramedic.

During his suspension in July, Trooper Martin was forced to undergo counseling for anger management, but a Holdenville man said that anger was on display once again.

Martin's latest scuffle involves a Holdenville man, Khristopher Douglas. Douglas said he was on his friend's property helping with renovations Saturday when troopers pulled up apparently working a traffic violation in Holdenville.

Douglas said he was making his way inside when Martin demanded he move away from his friend's home and come towards the street.

"I said why can't I go inside and be safe, and he said go to the street. So I turned around and next thing I know that officer grabbed my arm and curl up like this while he's beating me," Douglas said.

Douglas said he was never given an explanation and was cited for obstruction.

At the same time, another Trooper was detaining Lucas Carson claiming he ran a stop sign.

Carson said he did not run the stop sign, but said he did witness the incident between Douglas and Trooper Martin.

"He said, 'We're giving you a citation and we're taking that other guy to jail,' and I said, 'Why are you taking that other guy to jail for?' And he said, 'Obstruction of police business,'" Carson said.

Jerry Ford, who owns the house where the incident occurred, also witnessed the altercation and said he thinks Martin lost his temper.

"When he approached me, he approached me with his chest out and just looked like he was ready to fight," Ford said.

Martin and Trooper Tommy Allen are now on paid administrative leave, pending this new investigation.

"That'll give the department time to pull that stuff together, conduct an investigation and determine what cause of action will be required," said Oklahoma Highway Patrol Capt. Chris West.

Douglas sought treatment from a local hospital for his bruises from Saturday's altercation.

"They used too much force and I was complying with them, and they didn't have no reason to do this to me," Douglas said.

Khristopher Douglas is slated to appear in court this Tuesday and said he is considering filing a lawsuit.

OHP officials said they are reviewing video from Saturday's incident. Once the investigation is complete, the video will be made public.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on October 05, 2009, 11:48:46 am
Do troopers get regular random drug tests?

Sounds like roid rage or a meth head.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on October 05, 2009, 01:59:18 pm
Do troopers get regular random drug tests?

Sounds like roid rage or a meth head.

The Troopers Association (union) will make sure that never happens.

(http://workrags.com/images/Union%20pride.bmp)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 05, 2009, 03:48:12 pm
Do troopers get regular random drug tests?

Sounds like roid rage or a meth head.

No, no they do not.  For some reason everyone else who drives a vehicle in a "commercial" capacity has to be part of a random drug screening consortium . . . but the police and fire are exempted.  Want to drive a shuttle from the airport to the Double Tree?  Want to drive a 1 Ton pickup with a trailer for your tree service?  You better have a CDL and be drug screened.

Want to drive as your primary job function and be authorized to drive with complete disregard for traffic rules while carrying a firearm, talking on the radio, and checking computer information?  Go for it.

Doesn't make sense to me.  Particularly with the availability of narcotics for police officers and the responsibility as well as trust we place on them. 


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on October 05, 2009, 09:56:34 pm

HOLDENVILLE — A state trooper suspended in July following a scuffle with a paramedic is once again the focus of an internal investigation by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.

Trooper Daniel Martin was put on paid administrative leave over the weekend following an arrest Saturday in which a Holdenville man claimed he was assaulted by troopers for no apparent reason.

Martin was suspended without pay for five days in July as a result of a widely publicized scuffle he had with a Creek Nation paramedic at Paden on May 24.

Parts of the scuffle were captured on video taken at the scene and also from the dashboard video camera from the state’s trooper’s car.

In addition to being suspended, Martin was ordered to undergo anger-management assessment.

In Saturday’s incident, Martin was the back-up officer for Trooper Tommy Allen, who was also placed on paid administrative leave over the Holdenville arrest. Holdenville is about 90 miles south of Tulsa in Hughes County.

Capt. Chris West, spokesman for the OHP, said Monday a complaint was filed Sunday in connection with the Holdenville arrest a day earlier.

The two troopers were placed on administrative leave based on the complaint, and the fact that Martin was involved in another high-profile case, West said.

West, noting that the case is being investigated by the OHP’s internal affairs unit, would not comment on all the details, except to say that an individual was arrested for obstructing an officer at a traffic stop for a stop-sign violation.

The individual has been identified as Kristopher Douglas, 28, who was arrested by the troopers and taken to the Hughes County Jail.

Witness account

Jerry Ford, who lives in the house where the arrest occurred, said Douglas was walking over to his house to help him drywall when the troopers jumped Douglas, put him in a chokehold and then hit him with a baton. He said the incident occurred in his front yard.

Ford said the motorist who allegedly ran the stop sign, Luke Carson, also was coming to his house to help him drywall.

According to Ford, Carson pulled into his driveway about 7 p.m., and behind him came the two troopers, Allen followed by Martin.

Ford said Douglas, who was not involved in the traffic stop at all, was trying to get to his house, but the officers kept insisting that he stand by the street.

Then, all of a sudden, Allen grabbed Douglas’ arm and put him in a chokehold and Martin pulled out a retractable baton and struck him in the back, Ford said.

“I came out and asked what was going on,” Ford said. “Martin comes up in a fast walk, screaming he’s going to put me in jail,” Ford said.

“All I asked was that they take it to the street, that they were upsetting my two kids,” Ford said.

Ford said he bailed Douglas out of jail about 90 minutes after the arrest. They then tried to file a complaint with the OHP that night, but were told they would have to wait until Monday, he said.

Ford said they eventually contacted an Oklahoma City TV station on Sunday to report the matter.

Ford said neither he nor Douglas knew the names of the troopers, but they did remember badge no. 606, and reported that to the TV reporter, who recognized it as being Martin’s.

Once that story aired Sunday night, Ford said they received a call “inside of 10 minutes” from the OHP, telling them they could file the complaint, which they did verbally Sunday night. Ford said a written complaint will also be filed.

Ford said he was surprised to learn that Martin was the same trooper involved in the scuffle with the paramedic.

“Anyone in the United States of America would get run off his job,” Ford said. “He (Martin) gets a paid vacation. I don’t want to run down the police, but we sure need someone to monitor the police, but no one is above the Highway Patrol.

“It’s like now, nothing would have been done had it not been for the media coverage,” Ford said.

The Tulsa World has filed a formal request under the Oklahoma Open Records Act for release of the troopers’ incident reports, a copy of the complaint and release of the dashboard videotapes from the troopers’ cars. None were released Monday.

Trooper’s version

Gary James, an Oklahoma City attorney who represents Martin, said his client will be exonerated once the tapes from Martin’s dashboard camera are released.

James said he talked with Martin, who told him that Douglas tried to walk through the traffic stop several times and wouldn’t heed their commands to stand by the street.

James said Douglas was arrested and the officers had to use force because they felt he was getting hostile.

“He had his teeth clenched as if he was going to do something,” the attorney quoted his client as saying.

James said Douglas could be heard in the squad car saying he was sorry and should have heeded the troopers’ command.

Records show that in addition to several traffic tickets, Douglas has 2004 felony drug conviction out of Oklahoma County, for which he received a nearly five-year suspended sentence.

Richard O’Carroll, a Tulsa attorney representing Douglas, backed up Ford’s version of the events.

O’Carroll is also the attorney for Maurice White Jr., the paramedic involved in the scuffle with Martin in May.

That incident was sparked when Martin claimed the ambulance crew, which was taking a woman to the hospital, gave him an obscene finger gesture as their vehicles passed.

O’Carroll has already filed a federal lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Muskogee against the state for that incident.

Reacting to the latest case involving Martin, O’Carroll said: “This was predictable and outrageous. They’ve protected, indulged and endorsed this dangerous law-enforcement officer,” O’Carroll said of the Highway Patrol.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: cannon_fodder on October 06, 2009, 09:17:59 am
Quote
an Oklahoma City attorney who represents Martin, said his client will be exonerated once the tapes from Martin’s dashboard camera are released.

. . .

James said Douglas could be heard in the squad car saying he was sorry and should have heeded the troopers’ command.

1) I think we have heard that before.

2) Funny thing when you beat people, they tend to agree with your position in a hurry.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Townsend on October 06, 2009, 09:21:28 am

2) Funny thing when you beat people, they tend to agree with your position in a hurry.

"thank you" and "may I have another?"


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on October 06, 2009, 09:26:28 am
“'He had his teeth clenched as if he was going to do something,' the attorney quoted his client as saying."

This Martin guy sounds like a total coward.  "As if he was going to do something"??

I bet he's been salivating for the day to use his baton on someone.  As I mentioned before, he needs to be busted down to the little leagues watching Walgreen's or some jewelry store for $8.00 an hour, without any sort of weapon.  What a poor representative for law enforcement.  If he's not fired this time, I expect some serious outrage.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on October 06, 2009, 09:45:55 am
One of the news outlets is reporting that former trooper and now State Representative Mike Christian, who sits on the public safety committee, is now in the process of launching an interim study into DPS and OHP.
The reporter apparently didnt bother to ask Christian how he voted in 2005 when DPS asked him and the legislature to exempt OHP and the DPS from the Open Records Law and make them a secret police entity.

Reform, or just political CYA? 


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on October 06, 2009, 09:48:56 am
I can't believe there's no drug-testing policy, especially if there is reasonable suspicion.  In this case, I think there is. 

These men and women work for the citizens and should be held to the highest standards when they are in uniform.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Townsend on October 06, 2009, 09:50:45 am

These men and women work for the citizens

Double dog dare you to say that to one of their faces.

A BAPD officer was very quick to point out they did not have "to protect and to serve" on their cruisers.  I don't know if that's changed.  That was pointed out to me years ago...very clearly pointed out.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on October 06, 2009, 09:51:59 am
Double dog dare you to say that to one of their faces.

Anyone who has forgotten that should turn in their badge.  Triple dog dare ya to say that!  ;)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: buckeye on October 06, 2009, 03:18:19 pm
Double dog dare you to say that to one of their faces.

A BAPD officer was very quick to point out they did not have "to protect and to serve" on their cruisers.  I don't know if that's changed.  That was pointed out to me years ago...very clearly pointed out.
Sad that regular folks are forced to regard law enforcement with fear.  Criminals certainly don't.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on December 01, 2009, 12:48:25 am
Bill introduced to make Highway Patrol dashcam videos public

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20091201_16_A9_OKLAHO381749
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20091130_298_0_OKLAHO636996


Title: Protecting Paramedics from the OHP
Post by: Inveree09 on December 06, 2009, 06:47:33 am
I take it your not familiar with the keating savings and loan scandal ,,where every one who had money in it lost their money ,,it was front page news years ago in cincinnati


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics from the OHP
Post by: Townsend on December 06, 2009, 09:35:14 am
I take it your not familiar with the keating savings and loan scandal ,,where every one who had money in it lost their money ,,it was front page news years ago in cincinnati


Ok great


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics from the OHP
Post by: Hoss on December 06, 2009, 03:32:46 pm
I take it your not familiar with the keating savings and loan scandal ,,where every one who had money in it lost their money ,,it was front page news years ago in cincinnati

Where's that bunny/pancake photo again?....


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Bones013 on December 06, 2009, 04:00:54 pm
(http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/1205927630_192_FT9282_pancake-bunny%5B1%5D.jpg)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Hoss on December 06, 2009, 06:43:33 pm
(http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/1205927630_192_FT9282_pancake-bunny%5B1%5D.jpg)

Actually, I prefer this one:
(http://img72.exs.cx/img72/9428/PlayboyBunny.jpg)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on January 11, 2010, 02:20:55 pm
The Paramedic that was choked by Trooper Martin was jailed for "resisting arrest" Monday after allegedly being stopped for speeding in Vian.

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=11802505

He still has a pending civil suit against Trooper Martin.

(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/10520809_BG1.jpg)


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on January 11, 2010, 02:28:47 pm
Hmmm, sounds like he might have an attitude problem as well... he looks a little different when he's not wearing an OHP necklace.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: patric on January 11, 2010, 03:11:20 pm
Hmmm, sounds like he might have an attitude problem as well... he looks a little different when he's not wearing an OHP necklace.

He probably does, and im sure he's been in the crosshairs of every opportunistic LEO wanting to make points with the OHP.


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 13, 2014, 09:27:27 pm
Yeah, he's back, again:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/ohp-investigating-claim-trooper-showed-inappropriate-photo-during-cadet-lawman/article_5ce2a4c4-0a99-11e4-9c6a-001a4bcf6878.html


Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Vashta Nerada on July 14, 2014, 09:39:19 pm
Quote
A media report earlier this week claimed Martin was under investigation for sexual misconduct involving a child, but Brown refuted those allegations. OHP released its statement after a reporter from KOCO Channel 5, Oklahoma City's ABC affiliate, learned of the allegation and contacted officials, (OHP spokesman George) Brown said.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/ohp-investigating-claim-trooper-showed-inappropriate-photo-during-cadet-lawman/article_5ce2a4c4-0a99-11e4-9c6a-001a4bcf6878.html


This doesnt look at all like someone who would furnish pornography to a minor:

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/07/3075d18c-f9d5-5f22-9d94-0a72f1554774/524dcbd7d2c9c.image.jpg)

Video where Martin billycubbed a bystander where he pulled over a man he claimed ran a stop sign:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Ry0IPlpVU




Title: Re: Protecting Paramedics.......from the OHP?
Post by: Conan71 on July 14, 2014, 10:00:33 pm
What’s with the large bruise on his left upper arm?  Another bar fight?