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Talk About Tulsa => PlaniTulsa & Urban Planning => Topic started by: TheArtist on April 05, 2009, 01:51:52 pm



Title: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: TheArtist on April 05, 2009, 01:51:52 pm
  I think we are at a critical crossroads.  What we do in the next 3-5 years will greatly determine the path this city will take.

2025 was a great first step. But its winding down, so whats next?

The comprehensive plan will help, IF, its implemented.

Updated zoning will help, the ballpark will help, having these new small college campuses will help, the slow and steady rejuvenation of downtown and mid-town will help, improving the river parks will help, etc..... But all of these things are really us trying to play catch up to other cities, cities that themselves are still moving forward. Or at least once this recession is over, will start moving forward again. We have this little lull that we can use to our advantage and play some catch up. But the race will be on again soon enough.   And we are still behind and over all, falling behind.

We have a decent reputation, and are known as being a great place to raise a family with decently growing suburbs. But I have noticed that, we are slowly becoming less relevant, forgotten about, even spoken more poorly of. There are glimmers of hope and positivity that shine out from the city on occasion, but there also seem to be more and more negative assessments about the city as well. If that trend continues, it wont be good news. A lot of our good news of late has been the afterglow of high oil prices last year. We cant rely on oil, and we shouldnt want to. We have to be more than that fading flower.

 I don't think people here really get that we are competing against moving targets. That just because we see some improvements, doesn't mean we are catching up. We can still be moving ahead, but also be falling further and further behind, until one day the last trickle of positive momentum we do have, slows to nothing. And then the negative momentum takes over. The negative growth takes over, the negative rumors, perceptions, and talk about Tulsa take off. No matter how nice the suburbs are then, they and Tulsa will die in that environment.

Again, we are doing all kinds of things we need to be doing, should have done 20 years ago. But what can we do beyond that? Continuing to truck along as we have been, aint gonna do it.


ZONING

There is a thread on another forum talking about what mid sized cities can do to attract and be competitive for Young Professionals. One of the unexpected things to me was how many people mentioned zoning. Preserving and enhancing historic areas. Having dense, urban, well designed, pedestrian friendly areas. That discussion showed me yet one more reason as to how critical the zoning element will be with our new comprehensive plan. We NEED to make sure the ideas are adopted and enforced.

UNIVERSITIES (What could we be known for? What could be our FOCUS)

They and we have also mentioned many times how the "best places to live" YP attracting places are also big college towns.  Some here have made the point that we cant be that because of the way our state and politics are. But I still think we can improve there. One extra thing we could do is find a focus. OKC is growing its medical research campuses and trying to become known as major player where that type of research is happening. (newest building  http://newsok.com/oklahoma-medical-research-foundation-research-tower-to-be-earth-friendly/article/3356657?custom_click=pod_headline_technology ) Its working towards making that as part of its identity. What could one or more, of our colleges focus on, become known for. What could we as a city get behind and support to take us to the next level. Not just having adequate college offerings, but have something to be known for, to strive for, to shine at?  


RECREATION  (Points of focus to make River Parks point of pride, energy and buzz.)

 Couple other things that people often mention that put an area in a positive light and help its economy. Recreational opportunities and being the Capitol. Well we cant be the capitol lol, that's already kinda been decided. One person showed a map of the US and where young people tend to move,,, you could almost see mountains and ocean shorelines without having any lines or cues on the map to tell you where those were. Now we don't have mountains or oceans either lol, and that's kinda already been decided too  :P.  BUT we could really play up and enhance the river parks, trail system, Turkey Mountain (kaiser is going to put in some rock climbing stuff there), Tulsa Wave kayaking, get those dams built, have plenty of great parks downtown and mid-town, etc. Again, finding something and being exceptional at it. The River Parks has great potential and could really be made to be exceptional on so many fronts. But its going to take doing a lot more than what we are doing. Its going to take deciding to invest in it and making it exceptional. Not just "nice", but showcase after showcase, better than what anyone else has and perhaps focusing on one or two things.  Look at what OKC is doing with its rowing stuff. Even with the ratty river they have, they are working it, taking something like rowing and focusing on it, and creating a point of pride, energy and buzz. What can our "thing" be?


ENTERTAINMENT

I think we are making progress here. D-Fest is a great example. A small thing that has become more than average to become exceptional and a point of pride. But we can do more, building things like the Day of the Dead celebration, have a real Arts District. Got an email from a young guy wanting to start an arts district near Admiral and College. On the one hand I hope he does well. But on the other hand it seems to be yet another thing that could end up being a "not quite". We have lots of small not quite areas. But no focus, no one large arts district. Even the Brady Arts district doesn't seem to be heading in that direction. The new art museum and "artists lofts" will help, but its not enough and what else? The ballpark will have developments around it and there are other developments going in, but they aren't arts related. KOTV isn't arts related. etc. We keep watering down and not enhancing it as being an arts district. Its just a whatever and whoever wants to build something there district. There has been talk of turning the Fin Tube site into an artists colony. Pick ONE area already! lol, focus on it, and make it happen.


In summary lol

 I think we need to decide on points of focus and exceptionalism.

We are trying to catch up by doing the basics, and we need to do that sure. But by doing only that, we are not really catching up at all. We are languishing in some ho hum, boring, twilight world where we risk falling off the map all together and going into decline. What can we do beyond that to shine? What can be our points of focus and exceptionalism? With our...

1. ZONING?
2. UNIVERSITIES?
3. RECREATION?
4. ENTERTAINMENT?
5. OTHER?



And just when you thought you might be off the hook with my famous long, sunday rants lol.



Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: Ed W on April 05, 2009, 03:19:41 pm
TRANSPORTATION

I'm surprised that you overlooked this. 

TIA is probably under-utilized, though it's hard to convince the airlines that we deserve more frequent flights.

Rail is definitely an area for improvement, not only with light rail for commuters but with a high speed line connecting to OKC and DFW.

Private automobiles?  What's not to love about private autos.  We need more and bigger parking lots downtown (snark!).

Pedestrians - I think this ties in more with urban planning, re-zoning, and the like, but I'd like to see neighborhoods that are more pedestrian friendly, i.e. services within walking distance, reduced speed limits for motor vehicles, and wheelchair friendly infrastructure.

Bicycling - again, zoning changes regarding bicycle parking, employee lockers, etc.  A velodrome would be an outstanding addition to the city, particularly one along the lines of the public/private model set by the Lehigh Valley Velodrome in Trexlertown.  It's a money maker and it generates spin off businesses.



Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: godboko71 on April 05, 2009, 05:58:09 pm
Disclaimer I am all for growth of all types around all parts of green country, I think if our neighbors do well that will benefit us. I am a Tulsan though and will always support Tulsa before any other community.

Government

With the disclaimer out of the way our region as a whole needs much better representation at the state level. We should be fighting much harder than we are to service the greater Tulsa Metropolitan area.  We as a region needs to either fight for better share of state funds or find a way to rid ourselves of a state sales tax. IT would be one thing if we where subsidizing growth in rural Oklahoma, which we are BUT we are subsidizing too much of OKC’s growth. This isn’t a city rivalry issue; it is just plan misuse of state tax dollars.

Transportation

With more balanced power within the state I think some of our larger issues could be tackled, and yes connecting OKC with Tulsa is one of those issues. We need better transportation within Tulsa, but we need an easy connection to OKC so our residents can voice their concerns directly to the people that “matter.” It would also be an economic boom for both cities the intercity commerce would be great for both areas. People visiting the area could get a connecting flight to either airport and have easy access to both cities, this could make us a hot spot for business travelers that want city fun and maybe some time fishing since both Tulsa and OKC have lakes in there surrounding areas, helping grow our recreation industry.

Before we invest heavily in local rail and expanded public transportation at large we need to work on changing people’s mindsets about public transit. From ordinary people to employers every level of people needs to rewire their brains. Most businesses even 9 to 5 businesses will not hire you if you do not have a car, there reason: “The need for reliable transportation.” That would be fair if Tulsa Transit was unreliable, sure they aren’t always on time on stops, but any responsible adult would make for extra time in their travel arrangements as it is, be it for their own car or the bus.

Zoning

Zoning should encourage growth at all levels, it should be set up in a way to protect people’s property rights but at the same time not unnecessary hinder progress and development. When it boils down to it, it’s that simple, we need people in power that can help make that happen.

Education

We have strong aeronautics, aviation, engineering, technical, and medicial fields, we should focus on bolstering the education systems these fields effect directly and indirectly and work on bringing more business to the area.

We already have most of the ground work laid out, we can make Tulsa a great hub again all the pieces are there. Our Universities and policies leaders should work with these industries and work on giving them and their potential employees what they need to not only learn here but work here.

When it comes to things like education we sometimes get stuck on bike shed issues and forget about the big picture, sure education is to provide a growing experience for us, but at the end of the day its primary focus to help mature and train a workforce. To that end we should work with those industries and there supporting industries to make there employees better and go from there.

Urbanization

Much like entertainment I think the urban concept is going to differ between everyone, lucky for us we have different areas of town going about it in different ways. As a disclaimer I will say urbanization of any area should make walking easier be it for just that walking or getting to services and work. That is something some of our “urban” areas are missing, either work, or things to do, but things do take time.

City Core

Our City Core is already urban in a lose definition but it lacks many services and for the most part suffers from suburban influence, there is too much surface parking,  the structured parting we do have misuses land at best and is almost  waste at worst. Sadly until optimum density hits I don’t see this getting much better. As a disclaimer; until we start filling the building we do have and reusing them I don’t there should be a big push to build a new except in areas it makes since. Long term I would like to see surface parking change into one of three things: green space, structured parting, and new buildings.

Entertainment/Amenities/Lifestyle/Recreation

Entertainment what a wide subject; Artist my question to you would be, how would YOU define the word?

To me “Entertainment” correlates with “Amenities” and “Lifestyle,” so in a way I think they each effect how we define entertainment, for one person a Gym may be entertainment, for another they may hate it but it might be a nice amenity and a lifestyle choice. Part of how people will define the meaning of said words is if they want an urban and suburban life. Lucky for us Tulsa offers both and is improving in both areas. 

Broadly speaking though, if we beef up out offerings for both urban living and for the suburban dream we will over all improve the entertainment experience for most people.

As for recreation I agree our river is our best asset and we could be utilizing it to its fullest.


Utilization


Now that the convention centers expansion is well under way and the BOK Center is open we should be booking large conventions for the years after the expansion is complete. Think about it we will have tens of thousands of square feet of convention space between the convention center, the BOK Center, Hotel convention space and the baseball park. We also have Expo Square and other resources at our disposal, with clever use of differing sized shuttles and parking chasm we could bring in some very large conventions or even host more than one at a time.

We as a city should be using what we already have and what we will have to get more businesses in the area even if it is temporary during conventions. Think about it lots of services industries would pop up here, meaning more permanent jobs, meaning more tax dollars, meaning better services for everyone.

Utilizing our resources to our fullest extent will get our name tossed around more, giving us more attention, putting us higher on the list for new businesses and businesses looking to relocate.  We should be open and willing to work towards these ends to make Tulsa better for everyone.

NOTE: Sorry for being so long winded.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: nathanm on April 05, 2009, 07:07:26 pm
But I have noticed that, we are slowly becoming less relevant, forgotten about, even spoken more poorly of.
Until we manage to change the perception (or is it reality?) that Oklahoma is full of crazies, this will not improve. I doubt that most in Tulsa, much less the rest of the state have any problem with being perceived as bible thumping theocrats.

That's not to say we should just throw up our hands and forget the idea of improving Tulsa. We just have to do it for ourselves, because we want a better city, and not for some unattainable goal of improving the rest of the nation's perception of us.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: SXSW on April 05, 2009, 10:47:30 pm
Until we manage to change the perception (or is it reality?) that Oklahoma is full of crazies, this will not improve. I doubt that most in Tulsa, much less the rest of the state have any problem with being perceived as bible thumping theocrats.

That's not to say we should just throw up our hands and forget the idea of improving Tulsa. We just have to do it for ourselves, because we want a better city, and not for some unattainable goal of improving the rest of the nation's perception of us.

Austin thrives in a conservative state, as does Atlanta, Indianapolis, Nashville, etc.  I think that as we improve Tulsa with all of the things mentioned i.e. enhanced recreation, revitalizing the urban core, walkable neighborhoods, better schools and universities, etc. that will attract people and jobs to the city.  Tulsa doesn't necessarily have to be labeled conservative even if the rest of the state (and suburbs) are..

And I would list these a top priorities for the city:

1.  HIGHER EDUCATION: use city and state funds to bolster OSU-Tulsa and make it an independent entity from OSU.  Right now OSU-Tulsa acts as a satellite campus for Stillwater which is NOT the way it should be set up.  Do whatever it takes to expand the degree offerings and build more buildings at the downtown campus.  Maybe even rename it Tulsa State University to better reflect its position as its own institution, yet still closely connected to OSU and TCC.  Having a 'Tulsa State' as the major public university and also OU-Tulsa with its programs in midtown makes Tulsa more attractive and better for business. 

2.  SECONDARY EDUCATION: put together a MAPS for Kids-like tax proposal that goes to significantly altering Tulsa Public Schools.  New facilities and programs would come out of this and help TPS compete with suburban school districts.

3.  TRAILS/BIKE LANES: One of Tulsa's best assets needs to be expanded with more river trails west to Lake Keystone, south to Bixby and BA, and in the city along Crow and Joe Creeks.  Also adding bike lanes to key roads would promote more biking in the city.

4.  TRANSPORT: develop a PLAN for streetcars and light rail and do whatever it takes to get public support and funding.  Development around TOD's in such a plan could really change the city for the better.  Portland based its growth on rail lines and access to transit, so should Tulsa.

5.  GREEN DEVELOPMENTS:  build a more sustainable Tulsa by encouraging green design/construction and offering tax breaks for doing it and incentives for things like businesses with showers for bike commuters, residences that buy EnergyStar appliances or get LEED certified, and requiring all new city buildings to be LEED.  Also provide incentives for green companies and jobs.  Get citywide curbside recycling finally started and reduce trash pickup to once a week with polycarts, and mandate recycling by fining those who don't do it.

5.  RIVER: build the low water dams but with locks to encourage boating on the river.  The river is the city's prime asset and should be showcased.  The first river proposal failed but if the city goes after it again, without the burbs this time, I think it would fare better.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: cannon_fodder on April 06, 2009, 07:31:59 am
Great thread Artist.   I need time to draft a coherent and comprehensive answer.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: TheArtist on April 06, 2009, 08:05:38 am
Good to hear the different responses. Want to wait to get a few more, find common threads and work on narrowing things down into a list of concise specifics, those "points of focus".   

But I do want to caution that it seems these lists are again, about doing a lot of the general and obvious basics.

We should automatically be recycling more and pushing for that and doing leed buildings. Achieving that would catch us up to average. And yes we need to do that, But what in the way of green tech/etc. could we do to make a name for ourselves and be exceptional in? I want to shoot for the stars, dream big, but at the same time not be too general but focused on a specific goal.

Expanding trails and bike lanes? Sure,,, but what would be a goal for us, a point of pride and exceptionalism? Being able to say..."We have the most extensive trail system in the US" or "The best..fill in the blank.".

Amenities along the river... OKC is becoming exceptional with its rowing facilities, rowing competitions, etc. What specific thing could we do?  Perhaps we could play off of Tulsa Tough, help promote and grow that, build a velodrome, expand the bike trails, a better more extensive free bike program, etc. and shoot to become the Bike Capitol of the midwest. Have world class V-ball facilities sand and indoor along the river, national and international competitions, etc. Having more trails is basic and general, building the dams is basic and general. Those would just catch us up to average... except that by the time we have done them, others will have moved on and done more, and we are left again, behind chasing the moving targets. I want to leap ahead in a focused manner and become #1 in....?  I think those kinds of things are what can get people excited and involved.

The education and college thing has a lot of interesting possibilities. I think the focus on aviation and engineering that was mentioned is interesting to consider. Making OSU Tulsa an independent university is interesting. Lets have some more ideas on that front then play around with the possibilities and see what would be most productive and most feasible.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: SXSW on April 06, 2009, 10:02:01 am
I'd be curious to see where Tulsa ranks in miles of biking/jogging trails compared to other cities.  I think that is something we can excel at having so many different options for bikers and runners, especially along the entire stretch of the river in Tulsa County from Lake Keystone all the way to the Conjada Mtns.  Extending and promoting the Midland Valley Trail is also important because of its scenic beauty that goes from downtown/urban setting to the Osage Hills and, once connected to Barnsdall, the Tall Grass Prairie (one of the last preserved prairies in the country). 

I think promoting the river (which means developing it as an asset i.e. low water dams, development, etc.) and the many trails and creating more of a perception that Tulsa is an 'outdoorsy' place would be good for the city's image.  I don't think it would be stretching the truth either with many people in Tulsa who run and bike on the trails, go fishing and boating on the area lakes, golfing almost year-round, go hiking, camping, and rafting in the nearby Ozarks and Ouachitas, etc.  Tulsa is a more outdoorsy city than most landlocked cities in the Midwest and South, and we need to promote that.

I do think the easiest way to 'set us apart' though would be to create a comprehensive planning and transit plan (like what PlaniTulsa is trying to achieve) that actually nets results and a comprehensive plan, within the next 5 years.  Planning for transit, even if it doesn't get built right away, encourages transit-oriented development which is what we want to see.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: Hometown on April 06, 2009, 12:09:44 pm
Quality Jobs.

We are a company town that lost its company.

Everything flows from Quality (good paying) Jobs.

My mantra is work to enlarge our niche in the energy business, where we still have a critical mass.

Quality Jobs will give us the money to pay for all the other things on the wish list.



Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: TheArtist on April 06, 2009, 01:06:48 pm
Quality Jobs.

We are a company town that lost its company.

Everything flows from Quality (good paying) Jobs.

My mantra is work to enlarge our niche in the energy business, where we still have a critical mass.

Quality Jobs will give us the money to pay for all the other things on the wish list.



Quality good paying jobs is great and we should indeed pursue them. But one side of the equation that we are missing is the lifestyle factor. If I had a dime for every time I have heard a business say something like.  I have this great job that I need someone for, will scout all over the country, find someone, fly them here, wine them and dine them, they take a look around and go Oh hell no. lol  We can get great "labor" jobs and attract labor type people, but high skill, high quality, creative type jobs require high skill, quality, highly educated, creative people who want a certain lifestlyle. If they dont want to live here, the businesses go where those people do want to live. I have heard it over and over again how people will move to an area they like, even if it means not getting the job they would really want at first. Place first, then worry about the job.

My assistant, just left for Austin. Worked for me for over 5 years. May be taking a cut in pay working for a company there, but didnt want to live here in boring, low energy Tulsa anymore. Place first, then worry about job and money. Different types of people will indeed have different priorities. Do we care about what kind of people, and jobs, we attract here?

Or how many friends I have known that had to leave in order to move up in the company or career they have chosen because our local colleges dont offer the high level graduate programs they need to move up. This hurts businesses as well. They cant get the people here, they have to move them to the city from the places that educate them. We are not talking about call center jobs here, any trained monkey can do that.   

Plus by losing a lot of our young people and not attracting Young Professionals and Creative class people we are losing out on business creation. The businesses that those types of people create are often the types of jobs we want. If they dont want to live here, we are missing out on that creative, jobs of tomorrow, jobs creation.  Think of the kid who started Yahoo.

Quality of life, good transportation, good zoning and urban design, abundant educational offerings, a cities perceived desirability,,, are all jobs drivers. Plus we dont want just any old jobs, (Someone once told me that one of the things that hurt Tulsa, when we had the oil booms we attracted large numbers of working class and poor people who flocked here looking for work,"not career people but workers",,, few wealthy industries with limited numbers of high paying jobs at the top and masses of common, poorly educated, laborers, then when the high paying jobs/industry mostly left,,, ) we want high paying, high tech, high education, highly creative, etc jobs. Which means we need to be a city that attracts, grows and keep those kinds of people and companies.   

As for working to increase our niche in the energy industry... have heard this before. Could you be more specific?   We talking wind? solar? research?


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: Gaspar on April 06, 2009, 01:12:32 pm
Fear not Artist.  We have a Twin Peaks restaurant now.  We can wine em, dine em. . .uh.





Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: Hometown on April 06, 2009, 01:50:13 pm
I posted some figures here a year or so ago from the TulsaWorld comparing average oil industry compensation to average call center compensation and it was something like $62,000 to $28,000.

I’ve posted in various threads calling for funding of energy start ups, government and industry partnerships supporting small energy companies (who are expected to benefit the most from peak oil), city involvement in marketing to energy industry where we still enjoy “good will,” city lobbying of government for resources to support our energy business, and city and state addressing infrastructure needs of our energy business.

I see the affordable real estate downtown as “Energy Gulch,” the future home to many energy start ups.

There is an interrelationship between oil and alternative energy sources.  Oil will own a great deal of alternative energy if they are true to their history.

Peak oil will ensure that oil is more profitable than it ever has been throughout the remainder of our lives and oil will morph into future energy entities.  In fact we have already attracted some alternative energy start ups.  Support services for one apply to the other.

I remember Tulsa before she lost the title of “Oil Capital,” and the startling difference between Tulsa now and Tulsa then is the increased number of low-income folks that call the city home today.  Tulsa is crawling with poor Whites.  That wasn’t true before.

You’ve heard this saying, “Build on your strengths.”  Tulsa’s strength is what is left of our energy business.  It is the reason why we aren’t at 10 percent unemployment today and the reason why our housing market is still relatively strong.

Sure oil is boom and bust, always has been cyclical, like technology.  And San Jose certainly isn't trying to diversify away from technology.  You learn from experience and you work the cycles to your advantage.  Now, during this current slump in energy prices, is the time to expand our niche.

I agree life style is very important and Tulsa has plenty of lifestyle that caters to families and children.  Tulsa is a family and kid-friendly city.  That’s a big draw to a young family.

Tulsa will probably never really compete with Regional Centers like Dallas where my partner and I actually see gay couples.  We almost never see gay couples in Tulsa.  Although I see many single gay men who may very well be closeted.  I mean we can’t even use the word “Gay” in the name of our Gay Community Center.  Chickens.

Lord yes, we need more higher education, as a draw to young folks, as a brain trust for our energy industry, as a research vehicle for energy and as a counter balance to ORU’s evangelical influence.

And there’s something even more important than life style and that is income.  Amazing what good income will attract.  Those armies of young folks marching off to New York and LA and San Francisco, aren’t just looking for lifestyle, they also know there’s a better pay check in the mix.

As my friend Frank in Liberal Religious Youths at the Unitarian Church on Peoria always said – No mon, no fun.



Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: TheArtist on April 06, 2009, 04:45:10 pm
 Ok, I like these lines....

""I’ve posted in various threads calling for funding of energy start ups, government and industry partnerships supporting small energy companies (who are expected to benefit the most from peak oil), city involvement in marketing to energy industry where we still enjoy “good will,” city lobbying of government for resources to support our energy business, and city and state addressing infrastructure needs of our energy business.

I see the affordable real estate downtown as “Energy Gulch,” the future home to many energy start ups.

There is an interrelationship between oil and alternative energy sources.  Oil will own a great deal of alternative energy if they are true to their history.""


Definitely something to throw into the mix.

Along with that perhaps enhancing our oil/energy name with alternative energy research and industries. Oil is something to still support, but, the world is changing  and other energy sources, technologies, and energy infrastructure needs will be the wave of the future. 

One thing all of these things need is engineers and research.

We have actually been shown this direction with the Helmerich ATRC at OSU Tulsa

"The Helmerich ATRC focuses on four strategic research and technology development thrusts that are part of the fabric and the future of the Tulsa region - materials science and engineering, bio-based technologies, energy technologies, and information and control technologies. Across these four areas, engineering faculty, graduate students and visiting scholars will develop new materials from the application of nanotechnology to ceramics, composites, aerospace materials, polymers and metals."

Growing and enhancing those 4 areas pretty much rounds up several comments on here.

Materials science and Engineering
Bio-based Technologies
Energy Technologies
Information and Control Technologies

Cant go wrong with our universities focusing on those.  Would be great if we could get OSU Tulsa to be one of THE places in the US where this was a big deal. It becomes a campus known for those things. We get the big donors to support these same threads (and not be shuffling money off to Stillwater lol) And of course setting up a system to get patents out into production and start up companies supported. 


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: carltonplace on April 08, 2009, 12:54:56 pm
One of the things missing from your list is funding.

V2025 would not be possible today and is not likely to be renewed with the current state of the city/county relationship. Tulsans are more likely to approve sales tax increases than the surrounding suburbs because overall our sales tax rate is lower than in the suburbs, but I believe that we have reached voter fatigue in sales tax packages. I think that even the 3rd penny tax that we have relied on for so long will get harder and harder to pass.

Tulsa needs to find new avenues for revenue. Whether we try to recapture some of the state's 4 cents, grab some some portion of existing ad valorem from the county, commuter tax, or entice more people to move back into Tulsa from the burbs (higher gasoline prices, new developments, better perception of TPS, more higher ed opportunities, etc would help us to "unsprawl").

It's time to wrap up planning and move to doing. We have an excellent resource in Dr. Crowley; he has great ideas for the core area and we need to find ways to move his plans into action. The TDA needs to start moving its parcels that ring the CBD. It's fine to look for just the right development next to our new arena and convention center, but do we need to tight fist empty land in the East End or Brady? Dr Crowley mentioned the Evans-Fintube and West Bank sites at a meeting recently; his point was: why are we selling these sites? Why not long term lease them to the right developer/idea and let the developer free up some capital to use on improving the land rather than needing a huge upfront outlay to purchase the land. Let's move on the Pearl District. Let's rip the top off of the Elm Creek underground waterway where ever feasible to invite development. Let's get student housing in the (empty) area between Brady Heights and OSU Tulsa. Let's start small mass transit lines in the core. Let's finalize the master plan and enact the zoning changes. These things wont require a lot of money to accomplish (other than the transit), but they will create pockets of multi-use sustainable development that brings more tax payers into the core and they will pay for themselves many times over.

We need to find creative ways to fund the above.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: custosnox on April 09, 2009, 02:06:01 pm
While reading the various replies and discussions here, there is something that has occured to me, safety.  While Tulsa has had a comparativly low crime rate for a Metro area, it is on the rise.  It has been pointed out in other threads about funding, though I personally think that something is happening with our tax dollars that move around in political hands, but that isn't the point of discussion.  With the recession in full swing, our crime rates have jumped up, especially with the sudden explosion of meth lab explosions.  Since Tulsa isn't really feeling the pinch of the recession like the rest of the country, things shouldn't be getting as desperate as they have so far.  When others are looking for a new place, and they see stuff like this all over the news, it never looks good to them.  Not to mention that most Metro area's tend to have their "bad" side of towns that the majority of these elements are restricted to, and while many concider North Tulsa our "bad" side of town, when you look at the crime maps, it's starting to look like the safer part of town. 

I will say that education is my highest priority.  With four school age children, I am getting a first hand look at how TPS is being handled, and I think that it can be done better.  Our standards are low, our curriculim is well below the national standard, and the pay of teachers is unexceptable.  This needs to be addressed if we want to see a better class of residents.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: YoungTulsan on April 10, 2009, 10:45:16 am
Screw the river and start doing the localized creek developments.  Do several different neighborhood projects and create numerous areas of critical mass.  The rest will fill in itself.

There were plenty of good ideas based on the idea of "look what we could do instead with that money" during the river tax debate.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: YoungTulsan on April 10, 2009, 10:53:32 am
One of the things missing from your list is funding.

V2025 would not be possible today and is not likely to be renewed with the current state of the city/county relationship. Tulsans are more likely to approve sales tax increases than the surrounding suburbs because overall our sales tax rate is lower than in the suburbs, but I believe that we have reached voter fatigue in sales tax packages. I think that even the 3rd penny tax that we have relied on for so long will get harder and harder to pass.

The river tax actually would have passed in the City of Tulsa.  I believe it got 52% from Tulsans and the burbs drug it down because they felt it didn't directly benefit them as well.   After that, we passed the streets tax, which has sales tax components in it as well.  So the last 2 tax votes got a majority vote in Tulsa.  I don't see them as impossible.

All the river tax really needed was some accountability with the funds and it would have had enough confidence for the voters to pass it.  Creating slush funds and not committing the money to specific purposes just isn't the way to gain the publics trust.  Most people want to see something done, and even many conservatives are more liberal when it comes to local matters.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: TheArtist on April 10, 2009, 11:53:00 am
Screw the river and start doing the localized creek developments.  Do several different neighborhood projects and create numerous areas of critical mass.  The rest will fill in itself.

There were plenty of good ideas based on the idea of "look what we could do instead with that money" during the river tax debate.

You could still do both with a quarter the money they were considering for that river vote. For the cost of doing 6 typical intersection widenings in South Tulsa or 1.5miles of I44 widening, you could do both the dams in Tulsa and the Pearl District Plan. Those things are not so much a factor of funding, but where we put our funding.

I do think the Pearl District Plan is one of those things that is above average, above and beyond the usual. That is the kind of thinking on a small scale that I am talking about on a larger scale for Tulsa. Even with the Pearl District Plan, its a start that could be put in many areas city wide. Its something exceptional and unique that can be grown.

The river will be done, and there will be stuff developed around it, and the parks features added to and expanded.  But rather than the same ol boring, general direction, comment of "lets improve the river, or develop parts of the river" get into specifics the how, and what, the exceptional and unique ideas that can inspire and rally people to move forward on them and become points of pride for the city.

Every topic and more that has been mentioned on here is often the similar refrain, fix the schools, more recylcing, transportaion, etc. etc.  Whats the end point? I am talking dream vision type ideas to become exceptional and unique. We plod along decade after decade in this city achieving average, sometimes a little more, often less.  I have never been happy with average.

OKC took their "river" and made a point of exceptionalism with it with all their rowing facilities and such. Ok, do the river in Tulsa, but what will be the points of exceptionalism? Fix the schools,,, but what will be the exceptional, the unique, the above average goal?

Recyling,,, how bout have a 50% recycling rate for the city? Not just, we need to recycle more but have a shoot for the stars goal. Though other cities have higher rates, I think 50% for Tulsa would be an above average goal lol.

"According to the EPA, the national recycling rate is just 30%. I wonder what Tulsas recycling rates are?" "Increasing materials recycling in the US to 60% could save the equivalent of 315 million barrels of oil per year. Yes, oil is needed to make petroleum based plastics and 315 million barrels means a potential savings of trillions of dollars. YES TRILLIONS! " National debt type numbers lol.

How bout set a goal for 90% of aluminum cans at first. May get more people into the recycling habit in general.

"The national aluminum recycling rate is currently at 51.2%, another $1 billion in recyclable cans end up in landfills annually. The average American drinks 370 beverages in aluminum cans each year; it only takes 60 days to turn the empty cans in your recycling bin into new cans on retailers’ shelves; recycling 40 cans saves the equivalent of one gallon in gasoline."



"Austin wants to achieve a "90% recycling rate" by 2040. The current reason Austin lags behind similarly progressive cities is, bluntly, a lack of municipal leadership. What's more, local activists say, city officials and business leaders are literally throwing away opportunities to create what could be a golden, green-collar niche market in Austin, based on practices like broadened construction and demolition recycling."


Just read an article about a city in Florida having the goal that it will be completely powered by solar power. Thats big, thats not average, thats exceptional. If we just do average we will be left behind. We talk about shifting some oil businesses to future energy source industries yet we ourselves dont have any goals for implementing or using those future energy industries ourselves? In recent news Oklahoma was one of the top states that has over the last decade INCREASED its carbon emissions,,, while the rest of the country on average has been decreasing.

Take all those listed main points we talked about needing to work on and find some point of exceptionalism we can work towards within them.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: bacjz00 on May 07, 2009, 12:49:28 am
Really a great thread going here.  I don't want bring the bummer brigade in here, but I can't help but share some thoughts. 

After over 100 years as an incorporated city, Tulsa has landed itself smack dab on the edge of "making it".  We're in a precarious position demographically, geographically and quite simply numerically (population). 

First, the fact that we haven't developed a true marketable identity to a more diverse demographic of people in over 100 years speaks volumes about the city.  My gut tells me that it cannot be changed until the overall demographic in Tulsa "naturally" turns over.  This city is overrun with white, middle-class, baby boomers who live vicariously through their families and their churches.  Is this a bad thing?  Not for them.  Is this bad for the overall viability of Tulsa as an attractive destination to the young creative class who will spawn tomorrow's companies and lead Tulsa into a future beyond oil and call centers? Absolutely.   

I know this view is probably unpopular (I'm sure many on here fit this description) and I'm certainly not trying to pick on the Joneses, Thomases and Smiths out there who have raised impeccable children, teaching them the importance of family and faith.  We need more people like that in most parts of the country.  Here in Tulsa, we have it in spades and while it doesn't breed intolerance purposefully, I believe it sends a certain message of "preference" that resonates well beyond the edges of our city boundaries.  Are there other cities that have succeeded with a conservative base?  Definitely.  But how many of those cities are the size of Tulsa now?  And how are they doing?     

Also, I realize that this is probably coming off as way more of a poltical message than I intend, so let me be clear.  This has nothing to do with Republicans versus Democrats.  This has everything to do with tolerance, diversity and education, in my humble opinion.  Changing the demographics in Tulsa will result in more creativity, more education for the masses and more entrepreneurs.  Aside from waiting it out, I don't have a quick-fire solution here. 

Geographically, Tulsa I believe has some things going for it and some things going against it.  On the positive, we have many many lakes within a short driving distance and I believe many of them have been marketed thoughtfully and represent a wonderful escape for those living in the city.  Folks who work hard also like to play hard and to me Tulsa has much to offer in this regard.

Sure there is always an oportunity to develop more shopping as those other cities have, but in the end, setting ourselves apart means embracing the uniqueness of our area.  Let's face it, west of I-35 and east of the Rockies, from Canada to Mexico, this country has little to offer in the way of truly unique or attractive geography (save maybe the Black Hills of SD and parts of the Wichita Mountains).  Tulsa, thankfully, is much further east.  In my opinion we should be more actively embracing the nearby hills, lakes and streams that are regarded by many as enjoyable paths to diversion from day to day life.   

The negative part of Tulsa's geography is the fact that in the end, we're still a plains city.  While we do have some lakes and streams in close proximity, we don't have a major ski resort or ocean beach within a half a day drive.    We're not alone there obviously.  OKC, Wichita, K.C., Des Moines, Omaha and even St. Louis pretty well fit in too.  However 2 of those cities I mentioned had the benefit of a much larger population boom due to the fact that a) They were settled much earlier than Tulsa and b) They were keys hubs of commerce as railroads literally transformed our country.   

A third city (OKC) cannot physically be avoided if you want to pass through the state of Oklahoma via Interstate highway.   And while that may not seem very important to some, you can never overestimate the importance of location.  Just ask your local real-estate agent.  :)

Also (a bit ironically too) the isolation that I mentioned earlier leads to unrestrained growth due to the seemingly limitless expanses of cheap land.  This turns into abundant affordable housing, which can be good but also leaves us with 100 square miles in South Tulsa that is so overly homogenous, I do believe we ought to go ahead and just open a strip mall museum. 

In the end we are left in a very small niche of cities who are trying to find out how to reach critical mass in an area of the country that has no geographic limitations to encourage density, which in turn is how you naturally attract more people!!!  And that brings me to the final issue of....

Population. 

Tulsa is slipping into a realm of the census that some people around here probably don't mind so much (I'm thinking baby boomers again here) but others see as an ever growing wall that keeps Tulsa from reaching that critical mass that I believe most on these boards are wanting to see.  And while population in and of itself isn't a symptom, I believe in today's world it CAN be a very real barrier in terms of marketability. 

In 1980, Tulsa was outdistancing areas of the country like Austin, Buffalo, Charlotte, Louisville, Birmingham and Alberquerque.  Today, we are struggling to keep enough people around the core of Tulsa to compete with Fresno, Dayton and Grand Rapids.  We have quickly found ourselves knocked from the area of low-end 1st tier/high-end 2nd tier into arguably the dreaded 3rd tier of US cities. 

Trying to reach critical mass while ignoring stagnant population growth numbers can't be done.  I'm not sure what the answer is here, but Tulsa has clearly done something to alienate the creative class and young entrepreneurs (who will always be the drivers behind innovation and growth).

Ideally speaking, Tulsa should be pouring historic amounts of monies into marketing for our city in an attempt to reverse the trend that, in my opinion, is only barely beginning to slow.  On top of that, we ought to be investing in the things that will attract the number one most important growth catalyst of any other...more people.  And not surprisingly, baptist churches, fast-food restaraunts and banks don't rank near the top of anyone's list.  Fortunately, cheap real-estate is a plus.  But honestly, I believe that is inadvertently targeting a group of people who don't necesarily seek to "innovate" or "create", but simply seek to "get".

So there's my rant.  I know I don't post on here often, but I read quite a bit. 

I'm sorry to William for not contributing more ideas or solutions in this post (which I'm pretty sure was his original intent), but I guess I wanted to get some of these things off my chest. 

Flame away.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: waterboy on May 07, 2009, 07:15:23 am
Good comments. To me the most cogent remarks are about motivation and population. The populace here is stagnant both in numbers and in motivation. Everything else is based on those two factors. Make all the well thought out plans and proposals you want, and many here are quite good, they simply languish.

For every creative spark there are twice as many spark arrestors. New ideas are always welcome but seldom acted on in Tulsa. Whether this is a function of an aging population (baby boomers), or simply an old mindset is arguable. I think its the mindset personally. Old money, old political framework and old politics simply make for creaky growth regardless of age.

On the plus side, this forum and the leadership it provides is becoming apparent. I see Tulsa as a classic car being restored. The systems are old, the motor is big and thirsty and needs overhauling and it just won't run well on ethanol based gasoline. But it looks good, feels comfy and the style is undeniable.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: Gaspar on May 07, 2009, 08:25:38 am
Tulsa has has numerous plans and focuses over the past 3 administrations.  A constant stream of new brands.

Each took us in a different direction.  Developing east, developing south, developing the river, developing downtown, oil city, education city, art city, technology city.  As we sit in the middle of the intersection, trying to figure out which way to go, cars pass us from all directions.

Because we've kept changing focus as a result of the political pets and monuments to various leaders, we've become fatigued over the discussion of Tulsa's identity, and our citizenry has no singular clear focus.

This toxicity spills over into how we attempt to plan the city, how we deal with new opportunities and how we relate to each other on a local political level.  Fill a room with Tulsans and ask them what they believe our goals are, and you will get dozens of answers, diabolically unique answers, with no common thread.

Funny how you can see the big picture reflected in microcosms.  The Tulsa Chamber is an excellent example.  Re-branding itself with new goals every year or couple of years.  A new look and focus for each new leader.  New tag lines and slogans, dozens of committees with unique goals, logos and slogans of their own.  Churning and burning.

The more often we change focus, the less likely we are to embrace or even develop any common goal. 

I had a great professor that taught me "Each time you re-brand a product you kill the old product." 

Marketing and PR firms will push re-branding for almost anything because it allows them to build monuments to themselves, but only rarely does it really serve the client.

We've changed costumes so many times that we don't know who we are anymore.



Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: bacjz00 on May 07, 2009, 08:39:43 am
Well said Gaspar. 

The fact that this discussion continues to be had (i.e. What is Tulsa?  Where are we headed?) speaks volumes about where we've been (or not been) and how little we've accomplished from a marketing standpoint.  This city has been trying to discover its identity for many decades now.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: USRufnex on May 07, 2009, 05:19:01 pm
I'm not sure about how much of this can be attributed to an "identity crisis."  

Split personality would be closer to the truth.  

Tulsa's History from my perspective back in my mis-spent youth:  Lots of oil companies, deep divisions (racial/social/economic) in neighborhoods that really aren't that far away from each other ("Stay gold Ponyboy, stay gold!")... a traditional civic pride and sibling rivalry with OKC... some very crusty uppercrust arts/opera patrons... some very redneck good ol' boys... corporate evangelicals... Oil Capitol of the World... Buckle of the Bible Belt... Williams Center Forum w/ ice rink and quiche restaurants, the Admiral Twin, the City of Faith... art deco eye-sores, trust fund babies, children of the oil, Six Flags Over Jesus........

After moving back here from Chicago a couple of years ago, I had some pretty mixed first impressions:

Tulsans are needlessly territorial.  
Tulsans have a bizarro civic pride.... they take pride in hating everything about their city.
Too many cliques.  Too pretentious.  Too "comfortably cosmopolitan"?
There are some really cool, ethnic dives (grocery, restaurant, general merchandise) in some of them thar tacky strip malls....
A neighbor who went beyond the call of duty to help me when I had car problems... something that never would happen in a bigger city.
The surprising fact that I didn't really hate the Stepford Evangelicals as much as I thought I would... (annoying? yes.  any more annoying than the rest of the citizenry?  not really... at least IMHO).

What do I want for Tulsa?  I want the achievable.

I currently believe Tulsa should fulfill it's potential as a "niche" city.
I think TU should be in US News & World Report's Top 50 and the Tulsa metro population should be in the Top 50.... while emphasizing quality over quantity... and embrace it's own peculiar diversity/extremes....

I tire of a city that consistently makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

I could live in BA and still drive to downtown Tulsa (and park) within 15 mins...... I could choose to live downtown and commute to work in east Tulsa within 15 mins....

OSU-Tulsa is what it is.... an extension campus.  So, I want Rogers State in Claremore to be a serious 4 year state school and offer the same kinds of departments offered by Univ of Central Okla in Edmond.  I want Rogers County and Wagoner County to be more connected to Tulsa... and more suburban... I want Coweta to be a suburb of Broken Arrow... I want BA to start acting like a bigger city (more than one HS)... I want a city with most of the options available in a larger city, but also the small town/suburban options Chicagoland offers, only with much much shorter commute times....

I wish the city of Tulsa would cater more towards the $30k-a-year crowd of twenty-somethings and empty nesters in regards to future  mixed-use, walkable urban development rather than watch the construction of quirky luxury $350k lofts with 3000 sq feet and shared driveways....  

Oh...... and I also want a pro soccer team and a unicorn.   :P



Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: waterboy on May 07, 2009, 06:11:44 pm
You had me till the unicorn. I hate unicorns.

Some of my favorite posters on this thread. One worth keeping. Each generation of Tulsan's is different but we all share what you just wrote Ruff. Tulsans are cynics who won't settle for less than the best even if they can't afford it and don't need it. We are chauvinistic, class conscious and defensive. But we are southern genteel and helpful to a fault. Indeed, we could be the niche city that others would be attracted to if we would let go of our inbred pretension and just enjoy who we are. A mixed bag of evangelicals, libertines, libertarians, liberals, conservatives and well heeled oilies.

We can say "screw the river", over and over, rail over the slovenly indulgence of federal spending, then get ecstatic when federal money is proposed to accomplish "the river." We say convention center, our leaders say, Iconic Convention Center (+20%). We love to pay low wages then seem surprised when the city doesn't attract, or keep, young high wage seeking employees. We are a city of contrasts. Not too surprising that we look like something we're not.

I want to see Tulsa stop pretending to be the oil capital. In fact stop pretending to be anything particularly special. We will find out that others will determine our unique qualities in spite of ourselves. That means serving our citizens with good transportation, good education, representative government and being supportive of small businesses. The rest will just happen. No one in Chicago intentionally set out to build a reputation as "the city that works". They just make things work and others saw that. What we are will become apparent as well.



Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: EricP on May 21, 2009, 12:44:33 pm
This must be epic thread week or something. I can't possibly say anything that hasn't been said. I wish everyone in Tulsa had the drive to make things happen that many of the posters of this forum do.

If only we all had the tools, resources and time to make all of these ideas happen in some way. Those are the things people like me need... and I am with you on being tired of people that live here badmouthing Tulsa. You know what easy thing people who live here can do to help? Speak kindly of it. That's something everyone has no matter their class, eh? A voice.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: custosnox on May 21, 2009, 01:52:25 pm
This must be epic thread week or something. I can't possibly say anything that hasn't been said. I wish everyone in Tulsa had the drive to make things happen that many of the posters of this forum do.

If only we all had the tools, resources and time to make all of these ideas happen in some way. Those are the things people like me need... and I am with you on being tired of people that live here badmouthing Tulsa. You know what easy thing people who live here can do to help? Speak kindly of it. That's something everyone has no matter their class, eh? A voice.
Maybe if we came out in force, showed tulsa how it's done, we might get some more die hard tulsans to join in and make a differance.  There are many that step up to the plate, but they end up standing alone or in small groups.  We need to become a team and work together.  There are many views here, some conflicting, but all in all, they represent what makes Tulsa Tulsa and we have to learn to make them mesh to make the city work.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: bacjz00 on July 09, 2009, 08:02:59 pm
Literally speaking...this is the next biggest thing for Tulsa.

http://oxblue.com/pro/open/oneok/oneokfield (http://oxblue.com/pro/open/oneok/oneokfield)

Progress looking good.
 
If we can turn our Brady District and Blue Dome area into something beyond just the baseball, we'll finally have that neighborhood feel we've been wanting to return to the downtown area for so long.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: Conan71 on July 09, 2009, 09:02:30 pm
Literally speaking...this is the next biggest thing for Tulsa.

http://oxblue.com/pro/open/oneok/oneokfield (http://oxblue.com/pro/open/oneok/oneokfield)

Progress looking good.
 
If we can turn our Brady District and Blue Dome area into something beyond just the baseball, we'll finally have that neighborhood feel we've been wanting to return to the downtown area for so long.

Despite the naysayers and naggers, this is the single best thing to happen to downtown since they finished the PAC and the whole Williams complex.  I'd give the BOK center a strong 2nd place on that.

Imagine what downtown would look like today if Williams, BOK, Oneok, and a few others had decided it was better to HQ out south.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: Rico on July 09, 2009, 09:41:02 pm
^^^"Imagine what downtown would look like today if Williams, BOK, Oneok, and a few others had decided it was better to HQ out south."

Don't know about all of them but I stayed at the Mayo during the construction of Oneok....

It added so much to the ambiance of the Hotel.... (sarcasm off)

There was a feeling that very little, if any, regard was being given the Hotel or the surrounding area.





Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: TheArtist on July 09, 2009, 10:03:44 pm
Well, looks like we could possibly have a "museum district" in the Brady Arts district.

OK Pop Culture Museum
Philbrook/Atkins Museum
Cains Museum
Bob Wills Museum
Micky Mantle Museum
Fiddle Museum
Art-Deco Museum

Throw in the Cains, Brady Theater, Ballpark, BOK Arena, PAC, clubs and restaurants, art galleries and studios, the University... and who knows what else is coming down the pike. And you will have a marketable, national, destination.

The trick on the museums is just getting them done lol, and done right, not half arsed. Not sure if we will see the Micky Mantle Museum, but still have fingers crossed. Might be nice to see Kaisers, Bob Wills Museum in conjunction with the Cains Museum for instance. We could end up with little museums that are too specialized or limited in their appeal, but if they could be worked together somehow...  They could be wrapped into the OK Pop museum, but would kinda like to see at least 4 or 5 museums in the area.

Come to think of it, it would be neat to move the Asian art museum into the Brady Arts/ Museum District. I think something like that would do well along with the other stuff in that location. Perhaps the collection could be placed under the auspices of Philbrook or OSU Tulsa and have some high quality stuff added to it. I don't even think Philbrook has its Asian stuff out at the moment.

Isnt there a car museum in town too?

Again, another example of lots of potential, if we could just pull like things together into one spot, create some critical mass, and promote it lol.  

Frustratingly too, most of these things are going to take years, meanwhile other cities are moving along as well. But, if we are determined to actually make it happen, we would definitely have something worth the wait.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: Rico on July 10, 2009, 12:05:57 pm
The fellow that owned the car museum passed several years back.

Possibly.... A 1921 Race Riot Museum.


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: waterboy on July 10, 2009, 01:26:38 pm
I have a collection of bottles from 1920 to 1970's. Can I get a museum too? :)


Title: Re: What next for Tulsa?
Post by: TheArtist on July 10, 2009, 03:41:03 pm
I have a collection of bottles from 1920 to 1970's. Can I get a museum too? :)

I will take the ones from 1920-1940  ;D