|
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on November 23, 2004, 07:47:00 am I thought this possibly worthy of mention.....
http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories/.asp?whichpage=1&id=73041 With all of the conflict between The Chamber of Commerce and City Hall, it would seem they could all agree on one thing. Tulsa needs to get the Police Department back to full force... The fact that we are rated as the most dangerous City in Oklahoma is one of the facts that the Chamber gives, or in other Cities gives, to potential residents and investors. This is something that needs to be fixed......... Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on November 23, 2004, 08:13:03 am quote: Government's primary role is Protection and Infrastructure... Tulsa fails at both Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on November 23, 2004, 09:09:18 am "possibly worthy of mention"
I think it's a safe bet there are many people mentioning this to themselves and re-questioning their interest in living or doing business here. Another National poke in the eye [B)] http://www.morganquitno.com/index.htm Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on November 23, 2004, 09:25:19 am quote: Im looking at buying a house here... but after that report, and various other things going on around town, Ive also restarting looking out of Tulsa and the state in general. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on November 23, 2004, 09:28:15 am Well, if you read the article and go to the site, Tulsa is the most dangerous of five cities in Oklahoma, in other words, we have higher crime than OKC. BA and Norman are the safest and Lawton is in the middle, so of the two large urban centers we miss out, we should do better.
But a national black eye? Huh? We are not on the 25 safest or 25 most dangerous cites or metro lists, so we are somewhere in the middle of both. What a national black eye! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on November 23, 2004, 09:57:01 am quote: What don't you get about a National survey, ranking the Nation, and publishing the findings on a National level? Big difference from some factoid in the pages of Tulsa Urban. True enough, Tulsa didn't make the top 25 (and last week our "dumb state" rating was only 40th in the Nation) but there is always next year: and as the trend suggests - that may become a safe bet too. If you dig into the numbers, we look worse then L.A. but lack the Ocean view. But having a view is moot while suffering a poke in the eye. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on November 23, 2004, 10:39:24 am quote: what was the report last week that had us drop from 84(ish) to 170something concerning being business friendly (I think)... Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on November 23, 2004, 10:58:06 am Job growth and retention.
It's been in the crapper lately, oddly about the same time the council decided to go to war with the chamber. Hmmm Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on November 23, 2004, 11:10:42 am quote: also about the same time we vote in Vision 2025, & start promoting the lottery and Casino gambling... hmmm Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on November 23, 2004, 11:19:50 am A few points:
-- It's obvious the downturn in the local economy has fueled a lot of this. I know some want to blame the local chamber, but in essence a perfect storm of hit three big local employers all at once for varying reasons. To blame the current council seems a bit specious. The current council's squabbling and dumb ideas certainly don't help, but it's hardly the only factor. -- I'm surprised Muskogee wasn't included on the list. It's a decent-sized town, and I've heard a lot of anecdotal evidence that its crime is worse than the other five cities on the list. -- Tulsa's poor rating is undoubtedly fueled from a very poor 2003, when its murder rate hit an all-time high. It's already improved from that in 2004. -- I don't feel less safe in Tulsa than any other Rust Belt city in the Midwest. I could name you many areas in towns that give me the willies far more: north St. Louis, East St. Louis, central Rock Island, Moline, Decatur, Peoria, Milwaukee, north Champaign, east Springfield, Ill., Detroit (duh), Cairo, Ill., near-downtown Rockford, Damon Avenue and many other parts of Chicago. The worst I've seen by far is the tiny little burg of Venice, Ill., near St. Louis, with nearby Washington Park close behind. But many of these towns or their surrounding suburbs are growing. That's because the locals know it's not the town, it's the neighborhoods that are important in figuring out where to live. Armed with a map and some crime stats, we figured out where we wanted to live when we moved here and where to stay away. We picked Red Fork, which has very low crime, good housing values and is quiet. I'd visited Tulsa many times and liked it. I wasn't going to let minor chickensh*t fears keep me from here. I've got a few dogs, a baseball bat and a karate-trained wife for protection. I feel no less safe than my old home in Belleville, Ill. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on November 23, 2004, 12:15:00 pm Wasn't the DOJ supposed to help us out? Anybody heard any reports on this?
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/az/azpress/2004/2004-117.pdf Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 23, 2004, 01:17:28 pm The federal Government sent Tulsa a couple of federal agents to help with crime. As you can guess, it hasn't helped much. However, what the federal government has done to really help is take the criminal cases from Tulsa County and put them in Federal court if the charges are gun/drug charges or some other violent criminal acts.
Along those same lines, Doesn't it make you feel proud that the Tulsa Police Department is the lowest paid police department and is currently down by over 100 officers and the city has the highest crime rate. We should all call and thank the Mayor! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on November 23, 2004, 01:41:36 pm Thanks MH.
Just think how much worse it would be if they didn't have the FOP. Organized labor, friend of the working man. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: sendoff on November 23, 2004, 08:27:18 pm quote: And not so oddly, another incorrect statement. From Tulsa’s ranking falls in national job index "Researchers used data, primarily from the federal government, through 2003." http://www.tulsaworld.com/TWPDFs/2004/Final/a_1_11_17_2004.PDF Before the current city council ====> blame the status quo before 4/2004. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on November 23, 2004, 08:57:38 pm quote: there you go trying to shove facts into the argument... Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on November 23, 2004, 10:25:33 pm quote: Anyone know the skinny on what must happen before a new officer can hit the street? Have heard several versions from the Academy being reopened, to new officers must do a year at lock-up before hitting the street. What's the real deal? Meanwhile we have officers retiring, moving off, and being fired. Is there some minimal number we have to drop down to before the rules, whatever they are, change? Second question is how squarely does this poor ranking fall on the Mayors shoulders? Just in time for the seasonal spike in crimes too - go figure. jdb Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 24, 2004, 01:00:00 am quote: The Tulsa Police academy is 23 weeks long. This is mainly classroom learning. They learn state criminal law, municipal law, state traffic law, municipal traffic law, controlled and dangerous substance identification, DUI and DWI, police tactics, defensive driving in a police car, shooting, ect. If they complete the 23 week academy sucessfully, they then go thru 16 weeks of field training. The recruits are paired with field officers and evaluated. If they complete the 16 weeks sucessfully then they are cut loose and are on their own. The academy length will never shorten. Alot of the hours are mandated by CLEET and the city would face further liability if they sent a unready police officer out on the street. The mayor decided to cut three police academy's in 2002-2003. That decision put us into the low manpower levels that are present today. Also, the constant low pay for officers further cut the manpower because officers left the department for better paying jobs. The mayor has turned his back on public safety and now the city is having to pay for it. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 24, 2004, 01:02:25 am quote: The FOP hasn't helped. Look at the arbitrator's recent decision concerning the police contract with the city. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on November 24, 2004, 10:11:31 am Dug up some data on crime, from the FBI:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/xl/03tbl06.xls Tulsa has a higher murder rate per 100,000 population than OKC, 8.6 to 5.9 and a higher aggravated assault rate 465.3 to 361.8, but Tulsa has lower rape, robbery, property crime, burglary, and larceny-theft rates. Tulsa has a higher auto-theft rate. Tulsa’s overall violent crime rate is higher, driven by the aggravated assault rate. There’s not really a whole lot that more cops on the street would do to lower the aggravated assault rate. Fights and domestic violence are not usually crimes that can be deterred by enhanced police patrols. Car thefts I can see being helped by more cops and murder very marginally so, if only by being able to focus on gangs more. Well, maybe there is one way for the police to lower the aggravated assault rate, put away Steve Kitchell and his out of control bar bouncers, that one action would get our crime rate lower than OKC overnight. Some total violent crime rates: Tulsa 663.7 OKC 563.7 Lawton 678.1 Dallas 582.0 Houston 738.5 Little Rock 712.1 Omaha 446.7 New York 483.3 Los Angeles 721.3 Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on November 24, 2004, 10:50:56 am "...if they sent a unready police officer out on the street."
I was thinking more of recruiting seasoned officers from other cities, then arming green, yahoo's and pointing out towards the street. (maybe intice them with 8x10 glossy arena renderings?) So, we stand 39 weeks out, after reopening an academy, before a new officer hits the street? Any provisions for the Sheriffs office picking up some of the slack? As with all things, seems situations have to get worse before they get any better, but it also seems there has to be some kind of a stop-gap measure - short of callng in the National Guard due to some massive walk-out. Not that I see this happening, but if the City, any City, is banking on ones civic duty to stay on patrol, until all the kinks are ironed out, and that emplodes - what happens next? jdb Similar note: 6 street, downtown, Austin Tx. is a busy little spot. There one will see police in patrol cars, mounted on horse back, on MTN. bikes, and even a few on foot. In addition, there is also a presence called "The something Rangers". (I can't recall their name)These were law enforcement minded kids, that wearing a uniform, armed with a radio, and working in pairs, had a beat they cover for the night: assisting people with smaller problems and calling in the bigger scuffles to the A.P.D.. Typically, they looked more like an 18 year old book worm, then a bulked up bouncer/ bruiser. Running a club on 6th - I saw them as very helpful. I realize all "programs" come with a price tag, but have been stumped as to why this concept, suggested for our downtown several times now, has seemingly and repeatedly fallen on deaf ears. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: DM on November 24, 2004, 10:58:53 am To me this city is not 'dangerous'. It is like all other cities and has several areas of higher crime and others that are not. I dont feel any less safe in Tulsa. But thats just me. I know there are some areas of town that I would not go after dark! lol!
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 24, 2004, 12:07:15 pm quote: Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on November 24, 2004, 12:18:29 pm <start clip>
As with all things, seems situations have to get worse before they get any better, but it also seems there has to be some kind of a stop-gap measure - short of callng in the National Guard due to some massive walk-out. <end clip> Don't count on the Guard. It's too busy fighting an ill-advised war. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on November 24, 2004, 01:37:49 pm "Don't count on the Guard." - rwarn
Ok, then until hearing back from mh2010, I am going to ask Santa for an extra box of bullets in my stocking. One's impression of feeling safe is based on personal experience and knowledge. Niether of which take into account random acts of violence. It's a game of odds, a roll of the dice, that is helped or harmed by location, time of day, and the number of $100.00 bills protruding from one's pockets. That our fair city is not listed as the most dangerous place on the planet - Tom's Quick stop in Camden, NJ has that honor - is a good thing, but can also lull us into a false sense of security, no? Remember: The difference between "feeling" safe and "being" safe could be finding oneself rolled, robbed, raped, stripped- naked, and left for dead on one's own front step. Thus, I encourage everyone to make their lives all that much safer by canceling their subscription to the whirled, less time spent in harms way on the front step, until we have a full force back on the streets. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 24, 2004, 05:27:41 pm Did someone mention the need for extra bullets?
What's everyone griping about? If it wasn't Tulsa as "crime central" of Oklahoma....what city was it suppose to be? Oklahoma City?....how can you have crime in a city where no one lives? OKC has such a low density, they make Tulsa look like Oklahoma's version of Calcutta minus a few cardboard boxes and raw sewage in the streets. And how the hell are we suppose to fix this anyway? It's not like there's some massive amount of cash flooding into the city now...or in the near future. Guess we're screwed. Maybe the excess crime from casinos and lotteries will launch us into some sort of national emergency so we can get some of that good ole Fed money that doesn't exist anymore. What we need is more call center jobs, and perhaps Jack In The Box. Jack had a Pistrami and Swiss sandwich that was really really good. Went there almost everyday when I lived down in Dallas. But it was a limited time offer. The day that I found out...was my day of "infamy." I would have went off on them, but I didn't feel like contributing to Dallas's crime rate. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on November 24, 2004, 05:38:04 pm quote: DIE, YOU GAS PUMPER! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 24, 2004, 05:42:37 pm quote:How did you know? My psych profile wasn't good enough to run the cash register. But don't worry...I've been selling fire arms on the side to make ends meet.[:P] Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on November 24, 2004, 06:35:57 pm quote: Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on November 25, 2004, 07:15:42 am Quote Originally posted by neptune74137 Did someone mention the need for extra bullets? And how the hell are we suppose to fix this anyway? It's not like there's some massive amount of cash flooding into the city now...or in the near future. Guess we're screwed. Maybe the excess crime from casinos and lotteries will launch us into some sort of national emergency so we can get some of that good ole Fed money that doesn't exist anymore. _______________________________________________________ Lets see, no massive amount of money, That is a very correct statement........... And soon as the Turkey Day thing is over Bill will be saying we need to vote to raise property taxes," What Tulsa Needs is a New Library" Wrong,.......... I think we could wait on a new library.....! Why is this "blank" not asking for money to fix the Police Department??? Other public service sector items cut by his administration????? I am not like some of you that can quote to the penny how much this new improved Version of Pixie Dust will cost, but I think it would be better spent on Police and the other things that we took for granted before all this "Cut, Tax and Spend and they will Come"mentality came to pass. You Can Not Wait for the trickle down effects of building an arena, or slapping a little more lipstick on the pig before you try and sell it, to fix this. One thing I can not resist throwing into this conversation is the fact that on the "Centennial Projects" list, we are going to build a learning center at the base of the Big Foot Statue.... I have not heard The Artist even has the funding portion of his project in line, and we are going to build a learning center at the base of it... I'm Sorry, The Mayor of a Town Like Tulsa Running Around Like Somekind of a Drooling Dog, Over A Statue To Be Placed Somewhere, Hovering Over Tulsa, Sounds Like We Could Really Use A Learning Center But Not Quite As Far Away From City Hall As We Are Led To Believe.. (No Insult Intended To Either MH or the Animal Population by my reference to 1. Pig 2. Dog ) Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 25, 2004, 02:18:44 pm quote: Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on November 25, 2004, 10:16:44 pm <start clip>
There will always be the arguement, will more police really reduce crime? That could be debated for hours. <end clip> Yes, it does. The studies have shown this is pretty much a fact. Giuliani proved it in New York City. More cops were hired, and the Big Apple's crime rate went down big time. I like Bill LaFortune, but this is unquestionably one of his failures. Police manpower needs to be a big priority, and it isn't. If there isn't enough money, act like a real Republican: start cutting money from someplace else and give to the police. I wish *all* the councilors (not just the Gang of Five) would raise more hell about this. And I'd be shocked if it wasn't a big issue with the next mayoral election. It should be. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: owassoguy on November 26, 2004, 12:30:23 am I think the police needs more manpower and perhaps standard raise to keep violent crime down. More neighborhood patrols and park patrols will keep crime in check. Northwestern Tulsa seriously needs some police backup before someone gets murdered. I dont mind extra county tax to help to pay for police force countywide and few extra sheriffs wouldn't hurt too.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 26, 2004, 12:00:39 pm So...we should stop any kind of spending on Libraries and such, so that we can spend extra money on police while the FED continues to drop excessive regulations in the name of "terrorism" on us, without paying for it. Maybe we could make the TPD beg on the streets of Jenks.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on November 26, 2004, 12:36:15 pm Ok, here’s an idea to get more cops on the street without a tax hike.
Tulsa is an urban county, why do we have a sheriff’s department? Merge the city police and the county sheriff, let any other cities that wish to join in and help pay do so too. Cut the administrative cost of the police department put more into police and detectives on the street. Oh, and no matter what, get rid of CCA, they have saved us no money and do a terrible job. How many criminals does it take to be released by accident before they get fired? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: silverfz1 on November 26, 2004, 12:38:10 pm You know, it kind of comes to my mind that if you don't have good police protection and your crime rate continues to go up that we probably aren't going to be able to lure too many large conventions into the area.
Come to our great new arena for your convention, not only does the city need your money, our criminals could use some new victims as well! It could be a great marketing campaign. We need to spend money on police and fire, road and bridge infrastructure, recruiting companies and jobs into our area. After you build your job base back up guess what comes with it...............increased tax revenue! What a novel concept, increase your tax base, not your tax rate and the city will have more money to spend on all of these feel good look good projects that they seem to want. What a novel concept, put more people to work in better paying jobs and your tax revenue for the city increases. You eventually end up with your money for an arena and all this other crap while building a strong base for your long term future................wow!!!! But, back on topic, if the city doesn't get crime under control it will not be an attractive convention and event city. You draw your own conclusions on the effect that will have on the build it and they will come theory! Brian Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: silverfz1 on November 26, 2004, 12:41:26 pm quote: Because the entire county of Tulsa is not actually in the city. I guess if you wanted to annex the entire county of Tulsa into the city that would work, but then the entire county would be policed by the Tulsa City Police Officers. Hell they can't afford to police the city limits they already have now. I dont' think that Broken Arrow, Owasso, Sapulpa, Catoosa........are all going to agree to being brought into the city proper. Too many people losing power on that deal! Brian Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on November 26, 2004, 12:51:15 pm Nice theory about the crime rate hurting convention business, but it’s not true, the two cities with the largest tourist/convention industries both have crime rates higher than Tulsa’s.
Tulsa 633.7 Las Vegas 694.5 Orlando 758.9 Why would the city have to annex the rural areas? We have a City/County Health Department and a City/County Library system today, why not a City/County police force? We don’t need to force Broken Arrow to merge their police, but offer them the option. And even so merging the police departments does not mean having to merge the cities, many cites have metro and city/county police departments, it’s very common. Oh, and check a map, Sapulpa and Catoosa are not in Tulsa County. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on November 26, 2004, 02:34:59 pm Yeah, I knew that crime rate/conventions link was weak. Chicago had some horrific homicide numbers this year, and I don't think that's going to stop conventioneers from going to McCormick Place.
And don't get me started on Vegas, which has a crime rate that's worsening. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 26, 2004, 06:09:52 pm quote: I know you are not seriously comparing Tulsa to Las Vegas, Orlando or Chicago? I know that Las Vegas, Orlando and Chicago do have higher crime rates but look at what they have to draw visitors! What exactly does Tulsa have? High crime rates and a broze statue that is not built! Indian bingo and casino halls with such big name draws as Ed "Too Tall Jones"! A downtown full of only bars were 30+ people fighting on the sidewalks outside are common on the weekends. An Arkansas River that is sometimes full. Lets face it comparing Las Vegas, Orlando or Chicago to Tulsa is like comparing a expensive car to a skateboard, or apples to apple seeds, or oranges to lemons ect. I'm sure you are getting the picture. Don't get me wrong, I love living in Tulsa but those other cities are in a different catagory all together. As far as combining the police departments, TCSO minimum requirments: Certified Deputy - 21 years of age. 60 credit hrs. from an accredited college, or Advanced Certificate from CLEET. Reside in Tulsa County within 90 days of employment. Pass background investigation. Pass a written exam at 75% or above. Pass a oral screening board at 75% or above and interviews. Weight in proportion to height. Vision - Corrected distant vision 20/20 in each eye. Successfully pass a physical/medical examination as established by the Sheriff's Office. Successfully pass a drug screening examination. Successfully pass the MMPI psychological examination within 3 months of employment. Meet identity requirements as required by federal law. No Protective Order or on probation/parole, no criminal record charges pending, never convicted of a felony. Successfully pass all required training. TPD minimum requirememts: Applicants must be 21-45 years of age. There are no residency requirements to take the test, but applicants must be U.S. citizens and reside in the Tulsa metropolitan area once hired. Applicants may not have been convicted of a felony or a crime of moral turpitude. Applicants must have completed a Bachelor's degree with a C+ average or better at an accredited college. No military hours or credits are accepted unless they are received from or converted through an accredited college. Far Visual Acuity of at least 20/30 in each eye with or withour corrective lenses. Peripheral Vision without correction of 140 degrees in the horizontal median in each eye. Ability to distinguish red and green on a standard Ishihara test for color blindness. Hearing must be normal in both ears. No hearing aid devices will be accepted. Successfully complete the written aptitude test. Complete the take home background questionnaire (BIQ). Mail or deliver the BIQ and an official college transcript with a raised seal to the Testing Coordinator. Appear for oral interview before the Police Screening Board. Undergo a comprehensive background investigation conducted by the Tulsa Police Department. If an applicant passes the above then they must pass a medical examination by the City Physican, including drug screening test and Psychological assessment. ALSO: * There is no lateral entry into the Tulsa Police Department. All selected applicants, regardless of previous law enforcement experience or rank, will enter employment with the Tulsa Police Department as an APO (Apprentice Police Officer) which is the City of Tulsa's entry-level law enforcement position. Even if you could find some middle ground on the requirements, how do you combine the employees. Do police officers with a Bachelor's degree or a master's degree get paid more? How much more? What do you do with all the ranking officers (Sheriff, Chief of Police, Deputy chiefs, undersheriffs, captains, sergeants, corporals ect.)How do you rank officers. When people test to promote what will be the requirements? Will college degrees count? If they do then the sheriff's office will always loss out initially. These are just some of the smaller problems at combining the two offices at first glance. Not even considering the difference in equipment and tactics. So I think everyone can see the difficulty it would be if it was even tried. As far a CCA is concerned, they really do need to go but the bad thing is TCSO doesn't want the jail back. That was where most of their headaches were in the first place. TCSO is content with patroling the county areas and doing prisoner transfers. There as been talk about making TCSO take the jail back but TCSO estimate on what it would cost for them to run it is more then the county is paying CCA now. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 26, 2004, 08:30:27 pm Short-handed police are doing well
Sometimes it's nice to see these in the Tulsa World: I would like to say thank you to the Tulsa Police Department; they are doing an unbelievable job having such few officers. I have been out there with them and ridden along with them. It is an eye-opening experience. I can’t believe the job they do with so few people. Mayor LaFortune should be ashamed that he put them in this situation. They are doing a fantastic job. -Tulsa World November 26 Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on November 28, 2004, 09:09:55 am Well it did not take very long to put the 79.1 Million request for the new library on the front page.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/TWPDFs/2004/Final/A_1_11_28_2004.pdf http://www.tulsaworld.com?TWPDFs/2004/Final/A_3_11_28_2004.pdf I am not saying we should not spend money on a library, or other things for that matter........... We need Priorities..... What surprised me, when this whole Project Euphoria..., Dress up the City and people will want to live here......., Build it and They will Come............., Give Us An Arena and We Can Rule the WORLD............, Project, Vision 2025, was in the planning stages, Tulsa Now was a part of the process. How was it presented in such a way that it did not seem peculiar that there were all these cuts being made to City Services, and the Plan did not address replacing any of these?????? Or was the Plan suppose to eventually give the City enough operating capital to put everything back together......??????????? I attended several meetings with people from the Mayor's office... These were not public meetings, My question to them was "Your increasing sales tax for all of these projects, why not round the tax rate off at 9% and put the City back on it's feet?????" The response was " People do not like paying all these taxes" SAY WHAT????????? Could you run that by me once again.. Why can we not put The City back together, and make it a City that families want to move to??? Families do make up the work force don't they??? This problem will not go away.... We will not have a higher ranking as a safe place to live unless we do something about this. If this means we have to use the Library the way it is now for a while, fine. Not a very big sacrifice........ Especially when all of the alternatives are considered.......... (One more thing and this is for MH, I read in the Tulsa World where a lady gave a Thanksgiving Treat to Uniform Division North... Sounded like Quite A Menu!!!...... Just Wondered did they have many cases of indigestion due to the Fact The Mayor chose to attend????) Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 28, 2004, 12:03:20 pm quote: I haven't talked to anyone yet you attended the meal. You can bet the mayor either ate alone or people were ordered to eat with him. The funny thing about the mayor is he is either the most ill informed mayor in the history of Tulsa or he will just lie to your face. He really believed we got a 6% raise and no one got a pay decrease out of the arbitration decision. It took the FOP taking the paychart and having to set down and explain everything to him for him to finally admit he was wrong. He also went to a FOP meeting before he was mayor and stated he was all for public safety and would never settle the BOC lawsuit. He would rather the city fight it in court because TPD and the city had done nothing wrong. And what was the first thing he did in office, settle the lawsuit and cut two academy classes. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Steve on November 28, 2004, 08:38:49 pm I just want to put my 2cents worth in the library bond issue discussion. Tulsa's current central library is more than adequate. I do all my library surfing online, and if there is a book or publication that I want to check out, I do it online and have it sent to my neighborhood branch for pickup. Why do we need a $50,000,000.00 central library? (Not to mention my modern architecture preferences for the current central library.) This upcoming library bond issue is insane and totally unnecessary.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: owassoguy on November 28, 2004, 11:09:16 pm Well it could go to fund Tulsa downtown police headquarters since Tulsa doesn't have one instead it has a sheriff's office.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 29, 2004, 12:05:45 am quote: Actually, we king of have a headquarters down town. It takes up part of the second and third floors of the municipal court building. That is where the chief's office, detective division and Internal affairs is located. However, it is nothing like a true "headquarters". It would be nice to have a real headquarters downtown. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on November 29, 2004, 10:54:45 am "These are just some of the smaller problems at combining the two offices at first glance. Not even considering the difference in equipment and tactics. So I think everyone can see the difficulty it would be if it was even tried."
This sounds to me like a long range plan for the area - growing pains that will have to instituted, suffered, and overcome at some point - if for no other reason then the arena falls short of projections: then, world-over-population, no? At some point won't Tulsa's population burst the seams of being a bundling-bagged, Township and buldge into becoming an actual city, or indeed, if we are already a City, then our bloomdom into that of a Metropolis? In other words, making the leap from 2nd tier to 1st tier will mandate such changes, no? And are there not other cities that have made this leap that can be immulated as to what works - what doesn't? I am sure combining two offices would be littered with issues, and the creation of a new division, say a Metro-Force, would be even more so litered, ie. over-lapping turf and the extra cost of extra systems, but isn't something like this expected to happen to all cities that have out grown the pant's of it's old system? On the National level don't we see a cooperation and merger of the CIA and the FBI as a parrall? Maybe that's a bad example. How about Homeland Security and Border Patrol? er....OSBI and BIA...ok, well in theory anyway. I don't know, and I am long past the safety point out here on this thin limb on my knowledge tree, but as it seems obvious and inevitable that changes will be required at some future point anyway - I'll ask if I'm full of beans or is this not a good time start making shifts in the requirements, ranking and pay scales? I don't get the equipment differences, are county officers less armed or more? or the tactics difference, you mean like sneaking up on a meth-lab, trailer house vs. bursting into a mid-town, gang, crib? Meanwhile, back to the scramble of present day, we hold tight, right? find funding, encourage the public to keep a sharp eye on themsleves, and bank on the civic-minded officer to keep a box of No-Doze in the glove compartment? eeeek, jdb Are there regulations against incarserated, cheeseheaded, deer hunters from offering online shooting lessons? Anyone tired of Turkey soup and sandwiches yet? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 29, 2004, 11:48:36 am I still haven't heard an idea of where this money is suppose to come from. Someone mentioned libraries, that being funded from a specific bond that hasn't even passed yet. V2025 was passed for V2025 projects. Are we suppose to try and pass some bond, essentially driving the city into further debt, for the purpose of building up and maintaining the police? Is passing a bond for long term every day operation a good idea? How about shifting cash out of roadway maintenance?
How is Tulsa suppose to compete with anyone if it ends up with the highest taxes or highest crime or worst roads in the nation? Tulsa has been in rough shape for several years now, we've just passed some gaming measures and some state tax changes that will further damage Tulsa. None of which is even in effect yet. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: owassoguy on November 29, 2004, 01:06:07 pm If the library bond passes, the old central library could be converted into downtown police station. I assume that police and sheriff rather mind their own business than work together.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 29, 2004, 01:09:35 pm As far as a Tulsa County police force, basically no one wants it. There is too much to lose for the individual departments and the cost would be way too much at this time. It's just not possible at the present time. Tulsa will end up like OKC. Where municipalities (City of Oklahoma City,Bethany, The Village, Nichols Hills, Yukon, Mustang ect. that basically run into each other.)
The bond issue was mentioned for public safety because the mayor keeps saying the city has no money to better fund public safety. Instead of thinking about maybe doing a bond issue or something of that sort for public safety in Oklahoma's most dangerous city, he decides to push a bond issue for a new central library! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 29, 2004, 01:23:10 pm That's kind of what I was getting at. Bonds are fine as long as the bond is for a specified project with a defined time limit...like for building a library. If a bond were passed to fund the police...police forces are something that are necessary and permanent. Funding for police departments will always need to be increased.
A bond in that case would essentially be committing Tulsa to a lifetime of debt barring some wild economic swing. Yes its a tax increase, but the city gets less value out of a bond than it gets from some straight sales tax increase. But Tulsa, like many cities, is constantly losing income to the suburbs. So what does it all mean? If some outside entity doesn't step up and help out with funding our local police force, we will either 1) have a terribly high crime rate consistently, or 2) have some the highest local taxes in the country, or 3) both. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 29, 2004, 01:28:41 pm quote: I think OKC solved their public safety funding problem by either using part of a third penny tax that gets renewed every five years for funding or a bond issue that gets renewed every five years I can't really remember which it is. However, it is they found out long ago that they couldn't keep paying for their public safety thru the general fund. They were losing too much money to their suburbs ect. I just think something needs to be done soon. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 29, 2004, 01:51:20 pm quote: Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 29, 2004, 02:05:42 pm Just continue the downward spiral of the city? Will crime rates have to equal Detroit's before something is done? At what point do citizens in Tulsa say enough is enough and decide to fund public safety?
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on November 29, 2004, 02:33:16 pm quote: we have been funding public safety, however those in charge have decided to waste OUR money, we have bad roads becasue of waste, we have poor education because of waste so why should public safety be any different? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 29, 2004, 02:45:50 pm quote: Probably about the time Tulsa decides that increasing poverty and crime through casinos and lotteries is a bad thing. Probably about the time Tulsa decides to stop sending extra money to the state on request. I'm beginning to believe that Tulsa is headed straight to that "hollowed out shell of a city" model of Detroit...or even Dallas. There are certain cities that have geographical advantages that Tulsa doesn't have, but in the larger more "advantaged" cities....they're having similar problems. What it means is, that Tulsa may have to actually take itself out of the concept of competition on taxes, and become a heavily taxed city. That of course has plenty of drawbacks including increasing the flight of currency out of Tulsa's economy making the situation tougher. I don't believe Tulsa can fund this without assistance from the Fed. I don't believe the State will ever really be interested in funding TPD. Back on a political note, this is one of the many reasons why I was never for tax cuts and deficit spending on the Fed level. Some Administrations send cash to inner city PD's, some don't or can't afford it. I'd prefer Fed level taxes to local and state tax increases, because cities and states are in competition, the Fed isn't. Cities and states need to be able to maintain lower tax rates, and need to have fully funded law enforcement. The only thing the Fed is competing for is Mexican immigrants....and I think the Fed is winning that competition. My guess is that without some Fed intervention, some expiring Bonds will need to be turned into permanent sales tax increases and property tax increases. But, it's only a temporary fix. Local revenues are and will be decreasing. Unless, of course, the city of Tulsa is planning on "waiting it out" until the next boost from the Fed. I could see Tulsa going either way. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on November 29, 2004, 03:12:21 pm Ok, I hate to burst all the rhetoric, but, I did some digging, and some of what is being tossed around about crime and police staffing for Tulsa is not really supported by the facts, some is.
Tulsa has 249 police employees per 100,000 people and 191 officers per 100,000 people, that is compared to 260 employees and 194 officers in OKC. Tulsa, for similar sized cities (350,000 to 499,000), ranks 12th of 17 cites in the number of employees and 7th in the number of officers per 100,000 people, not really very far out of line. Tulsa had 1,122 violent crimes per 100,000 people in 2000, down from 1,334 in 1990, a big drop. OKC had 781 down from 1,082, also a big drop and a lot better. Tulsa, for similar sized cities (350,000 to 499,000), ranks 8th of 17 cites in the number of violent crimes per 100,000 people. Again, we should do better, but hardly a hotbed of crime. Tulsa does much better on property crimes (could it be that we have a gang problem instead of a crime problem?) with 5,710 property crimes per 100,000 people, down from 8,201 in 1990 and much better than OKC with 8,672, which was down from 9,529 in 1990. Tulsa, for similar sized cities (350,000 to 499,000), ranks 12th of 17 cites in the number of property crimes per 100,000 people. Really, pretty good. So maybe we do need a few more officers and they need to be focused on violent crime, but it’s not really like the city is without police and is strife with crime. Here’s why the police are angry with the Mayor. Tulsa spends only $161 per resident on Police compared to $185 in OKC. Tulsa spends only $77,361 per officer compared to OKC’s $92,413. Tulsa, for similar sized cities (350,000 to 499,000), ranks 13th of 17 cites in amount of money per resident spent on police and 16th of 17 in the amount per officer. This is pretty far out of line. So, what maybe we need 100 more officers and maybe we don’t, but Tulsa should spend more per officer. Another $30-$40 per person per year would do it. Maybe more than a crime problem, we have a disgruntled police force. Details at: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pdlc00.pdf Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 29, 2004, 03:23:08 pm Yeah...in that same report, Tulsa and Miami FL were the only 2 cities of the 12 where funding actually declined in those 10 years. And Tulsa wasn't doing too bad in the 90s.
Also, a report on crime in 2000 has absolutely nothing to do with crime in 2004. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on November 29, 2004, 03:49:41 pm quote: Tulsa’s violent crime rate is down from 2000, way down According to the Morganquitno site: Tulsa’s violent crime rate per 100,000 people 2000 1125.0 2001 692.8 2002 671.1 2003 633.7 Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 29, 2004, 04:10:13 pm Those numbers are for MSA. Try this one.
http://morganquitno.com/cit03a.pdf 2003: 1092 http://morganquitno.com/cit02a.pdf 2002: 1086.3 It doesn't list its CITY figures for 2001 or 2000 Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 29, 2004, 04:49:39 pm As of Novemeber 2003:
TPD had 756 sworn employees that equals to 1.63 officers per 1000 residence or if you all of management you get 1.923 per 1000 residence. to compare TPD to other police departments go to www.policepay.net to compare cities go to http://www.bestplaces.net/html/crime_compare.asp I compared Tulsa to Los Angeles. Tulsa had a higher crime rate for property crimes and Forcible rapes and was close in aggravated assaults. We still have a long way to go to catch up to Detroit but we did beat them in larcenies. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on November 29, 2004, 04:56:02 pm I'll try to get more accurate numbers for TPD.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on November 29, 2004, 05:11:29 pm I have a question of sorts...... The way I understand V2025, and this may be incorrect, the money is being taken out at the same rate as though the Boeing Portion had passed... Eventually, I have read, there will be a cut-off amount when everything has been funded, minus Boeing of course... If this is true, and once again I may be mistaken, what would be the harm in using the Boeing Fund, or a portion of that amount, for County Wide Police Improvements......
That is of course if there were a way this could be presented to the residents of Tulsa County.. It would not mean a Tax increase, we are already paying the amount. All it would mean is the projects being funded by V2025 would be slowed down a little.And the amount could end at the same time the Phantasia Arena is going to bring us this windfall of sales tax revenue....... If all of this is misinformation I apologize in advance,...... Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on November 29, 2004, 05:26:27 pm I am against using bond money and votes for operational issues.
That said, the Boeing money is NOT being collected and a case could be made for a small sales tax increase to fund police operations on a permanent basis. But don't make it revolving. Capital projects should go to a vote of the people on a regular basis so that projects are in line with the public will, but don't make us lay off 100 officers due to a tax being voted down. Make any tax that funds anything like police salaries permanent. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on November 29, 2004, 05:37:57 pm My understanding is that the Boeing part of the tax did not go into effect....as promised. I haven't looked at a reciept lately, so....
The city of Tulsa could seek to increase the sales tax for TPD. However, with sales tax revenues constantly in decline, it is still a temporary fix. Also, sales tax rates for Tulsa are below the rates for the burbs, but not by much. Right now, with no tax increase, all it would take would be for a bond to expire and one of the burbs could undercut Tulsa. Don't know how much that matters, but it wouldn't add any incentive for shoppers to pass up Owasso or Broken Arrow and head for Tulsa. And we still don't know the total effects of casinos and the lottery. We're losing sales tax on tobacco, its possible we could lose local tax revenue to Bass Pro, and its quite likely that Tulsa will see increased poverty and crime due to gaming. It may take more than a small tax increase to fix anything by this time next year. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on November 30, 2004, 12:22:43 am quote: Yes Sir, This one is sewed up pretty tight........ Maybe this should be a question best posed to the Mayor of our fine City.. And The Cosa Nostra Council or whatever they are being called this week.... That is what they are supposed to get paid for..... Or maybe we could pose this question to The All Mighty Chamber.. Or would this be the Thorn that they would feel more comfortable with the EDC handling............ Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Johnboy976 on December 13, 2004, 04:01:39 pm Here is the fact of the matter. You are worried that Tulsa is unsafe. I lived in the city for twenty years, and all of a sudden I am told the place is unsafe. Well I would like you to tell me where it is in Tulsa that it's unsafe to live. If you want to make it known that you are absolutely scared of the place, then don't move here. One year, in a very many we are considered the most unsafe city in OKLAHOMA!!! I think that it's paranoia that fuels people to be scared of a place. Most, if not all of the murders occurred between people that knew each other. Unless you have ticked someone off to that point, I think you are safe.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: D.Schuttler on December 13, 2004, 11:12:11 pm On 12-12-04 at 8 pm there was 17 calls waiting to be given to a police officer in the UDE division..... Something needs done.
(Granted I have heard some calls go out that would be nice to be able to ignore them.) Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 16, 2004, 07:40:29 am quote: Just a little exercise for people that are bored........ Log on to Tulsa Police.org on some Friday or Saturday night and look at the calls that are being handled..... And the calls that are waiting........ Last night Uniform Division North at approximately 7 PM had every car on a call and had 11 calls waiting to be assigned........ And this was only Wednesday! This is the same Division Mayor Bill Broke Bread with on Thanksgiving............. This must be FIXED!!!!!!!!!!! Whatever it takes!!!!!!!!!!! This is one thing that would convince me to pay more TAX............ OH that word leaves a bad taste in my mouth.......!!! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 16, 2004, 03:30:28 pm I didn't know you could look at calls on the TPD website. Whoever thought of putting calls on the website deserves a metal!
You should see Thursday, Friday and Saturdays in the summer! Low priority calls hold for 5 or 6 hours because no one can go. High priority calls sometimes hold for over an hour. If more people knew this, they would be up in arms and calling on the mayor and the city counsel to do something about it. Know people can see why there is little to no proactive police work anymore (at least not like there used to be). It's because everyone is trying to keep up with the calls. Just for the record Sundays are the slow days. (1527 hours, Thursday 6 calls holding at UDN.) Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 17, 2004, 09:16:53 am With all of the money and effort being put into so many things in Tulsa, why not fix this problem???
Make it a priority!!!!! What are we going to do when the National Trust Visits?? Issue License to Carry Permits at the Airport Gates, Then introduce ourselves as the City that lost The Skelly for a parking lot????????? But we could always smooth that over by showing them the "New Tulsa", complete with 20 something lofts in the Philtower and an abandoned Downtown........ Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on December 17, 2004, 09:34:03 am quote: heres one thing that can be done ,IMO, get the Tulsa police away from traffic duty, you dont need a degree to pull over speeders or to handle accidents, as such wages wouldnt have to be as high as our crimefighters (who desperatly need a raise!). Also they could be used as backup to the boys in blue if they need an extra hand (and visa versa if the traffic stop becomes ugly). Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: jdb on December 17, 2004, 09:57:33 am "you dont need a degree to pull over speeders..." - JMO
Maybe not, but you'll need a gun. Which would mandate some type of certification - hopefully. Walking up on a car you've pulled over or answering a Domestic Violence call...I wonder which one is creepier for an officer? Creepy, meaning lethal. Personally, I wouldn't perform either job at a lessor payscale then other officers - and not just because I am a big coward either - which I am. Placing yourself in harms way, your life on a line - which common traffic stops have proved to become - needs to be properly compensated. I don't see an inexpensive way around this. You won't see me working the late shift at Jim's Booze-O-Rama, either. Rico: As a fellow hothead, I was able to clearly and easily recognize your deep sense of frustration by your use of multiple question marks (?????) and the ire of your lashing exclaimation points (!!!!) read loud and pointedly, here in your latest post. I applaud your keystrokes. However, in your ferver there was a cruical omisson that must be corrected. You contend that we: 1. "Issue License to Carry Permits at the Airport Gates". 2. "Then introduce ourselves as the City...". I am sure the goof is now obvious, but: Item two should have read: "Subsidize Neptunes, used but mostly functional, firearms Retail Outlet, so that a convienantly located stand can be built just South of Fine Parking. Thus, visiting VIP's can arm themselves with suitable firepower that won't clash with their fashion appearal before reaching Tulsa proper.". Fanning the flames... jdb Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on December 17, 2004, 10:26:42 am quote: Im not saying "don't" run them through all the standard police training, that is a nessesity, but what is not needed is a 4 year degree, MOST cities do not have that requirement Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 17, 2004, 02:00:10 pm quote: When all the body bags are tallied, statistically it is much more dangerous to be STOPPED BY the police, than it is for the police to STOP a vehicle. On average, only about 50 police are killed in a given year "in the line of duty". That is a tiny, tiny, fraction of the several million law enforcement officers on the payroll around the U.S. Statistically, it is much more dangerous to be in the occupational classication of Fireman. Or worse, a civilian STOPPED by the police. When was the last Tulsa policeman killed in the Line of Duty? Was it the unfortunate Gus Spanos about 11 years ago? How many Tulsans have been killed by the Tulsa PD in the last 11 years? Can't count that high? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 17, 2004, 05:22:20 pm quote: One of the most dangerous things a police officer does is traffic stops. They are always unknown risk stops because you simply don't know who you are dealing with. It could be anyone from a nice senior citizen to a murder suspect who won't be taken alive. [Officer Gus Spanos died April 23, 1993 after an early morning shooting following a car stop in Tulsa on April 22,1993.About 1:48 a.m., Officer Spanos stopped a car at 5800 N. Cincinnati Ave. His backing officer found him lying next to his patrol unit with a bullet wound to the head. He was transported to the hospital where he died at 12:26 p.m. the following day.] [Officer Fabrienne Van Arsdell burned to death on July 25, 1981, when her patrol car was rammed from behind by a drunk driver. Her car caught on fire before she could escape. She had stopped a drunk driver at 6300 S. Lewis Avenue and was running a records check when another drunk driver drove into the rear of her patrol car. The police car burst into flames and the doors were jammed from the collision.] And to answer Uranus, Statistically speaking in Tulsa, it is much more dangerous to be a civilian that tries to kill the police or other civilians on a traffic stop. Civilians that obey the law and not try to kill anyone will get thru the car stop and be just fine. I don't know how many people have been killed by TPD in the last 11 years. However, I do know that a greater number has tried to kill us.I've been on the department for four years and two people have tried to kill me and I can't even count all the other times someone was trying to kill someone else and I arrived at the scene to step into the middle of it. I survived my encounters by training, instinct and luck. If it will make you feel better Uranus know that the next Tulsa Police officer that dies lost that battle and the bad guy won so then maybe your statistics won't be so skewed. <<<<<FYI (1713 hours, Friday) >>> UDSW 25 active calls and 3 calls holding UDE 22 active calls and 1 call holding UDN 13 active calls and no calls holding Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on December 17, 2004, 06:02:50 pm quote: First off I want to thank you for your hard work, secondly, I know traffic stops are dangerous, but Im trying to wrap my head around why a college degree is required. am I on to something by seperation out the two forces, or am I blow smoke out of my butt. I have a friend who is a cop and he says they shouldnt work traffic accidents, would a special division just for that area be feasable? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 17, 2004, 11:36:13 pm quote: Thank you very much. Your thanks is very much appreciated. Studies have shown (I don't have the titles of the research available right off hand but I have listed them on previous posts under other topics)that college educated police officers are more independent, are more critical thinkers, have less incidents of police brutality and/or corruption. To quote one research paper I read and still remember "better educated officers police better". You really can't seperate the forces. It's not very practical not to mention there is simply not enough to seperate. I was talking with an officer that has been on for about 30 years. I haven't had a chance to verify this yet but they stated Tulsa Police had a hiring explosion in the 70's. It was shortly after the Detriot riots and the federal government had a ton of grants available to hire more police officers. Tulsa hired like 300-400 police officer in about 3 years. That put the Tulsa police officers at about 700 in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Now in 2005 Tulsa Police have approx. 780 sworn officers (I don't know the actual number because the academy class just graduated today).Look at what the population of Tulsa was and where the city limits were in the late 1970's and early 1980's and look what they are now. Tulsa has grown alot but the Police force has stayed pretty much the same. As a result you can see where the problem lies. It is well known in the police community that Tulsa police do the most with the least of any city it's size. As far as traffic collisions, Dallas PD no longer works non-injury accidents. I think it is mostly a manpower issue. We do the same things here when calls back up or when it rains and collisions are everywhere. We call it "operation slick streets". It basically means that there are so many noninjury collisions that if officers responded to all of them there would not be enough officers to do anything else. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 18, 2004, 09:44:34 am quote: A handy little statistic that is just NOT calculated for some reason by the U.S. Justice Dept. Crime Statistics Bureau is the number of CIVILIANS killed by our police "in the line of duty" every year. I think if Americans had any idea of the slaughter of their fellow citizens occuring every day by duly sworn law enforcement officers that they would be REVOLTED by the carnage. That indiscriminate slaughter is a direct result of one thing: The War on Drugs (WOD). WOD in turn - (being a WAR after all) lead to a WAR on AMERICANS by the Police. It's the increased militarization of the police that evolved from the WOD that is causing the carnage. The police have emulated and now operate like the military. Carry high capacity firearms. Carry fully automatic M-16's. Wear snappy black uniforms and jack boots like the Special Forces and Delta Force commandos (The Military). Wear kevlar helmets (like the Military) that without the camouflaged helmet cover look remarkably like the WWII Nazi helmets..... OOps! I also notice a strong trend in police behavior where they don't display a name-tape on their uniform, in order to HIDE their identity, and sometimes even wear a mask to disguise their identity. How HANDY to avoid a subsequent civil suit, because the victim of police brutality CANNOT identify the policemen who inflicted the brutality? "Driving While Black" is statistically speaking FAR more hazardous than anything that the police face. 2 TPD killed in the line of duty in the past 24 years? Just a statistical blip, unless you're the "blip", of course. I estimate that 10 civilians are killed every year on average by TPD, either "pointed a gun", or "resisting arrest", or dead in custody from "heart attack" or "drug-induced heart attack", or shot while "trying to escape". Meaning, maybe choked or smothered by the police while the suspect has their hands handcuffed behind their backs. Recently your fellow officers in Stillwater crushed the lungs of a 38 year old mother who had a problem with these THREE MALE officers forceably removing her pantyhose while in police custody........She's STILL dead. Cleared by the the County DA; but, it was after all PAIN County Oklahoma. By the way, the DA's report indicated that the police victim was WEARING her mandatory Orange Jail Jumpsuit when EMT personnel were finally called......... Curious...... Hmmmh....... But, the POLICE do investigate themselves for every death they inflict. And, not surprisingly, they CLEAR themselves - EVERYTIME. Can you name ONE time that a death of a civilian while either in TPD custody or making an arrest has NOT been ruled JUSTIFIED?????? Name ONE. You CANNOT. The POLICE cannot be trusted to INVESTIGATE themselves for their own potential misconduct. The police department is not INDEPENDENT of the harmful act. NOR, can a county officer (the DA) be trusted to INDEPENDENTLY investigate a police-inflicted death when the county is facing potential civil liability. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 18, 2004, 09:47:56 am quote: Amazing I was just thinking what we could do to branch out! This seems perfect, we could sell other things in the store, perhaps a copy of JudgeDoom's Archived article The Final Solution for Downtown!!! Hand it out as a pamphlet..... A Welcome package so to speak.. This has given me so many ideas we could make a book out of it! I wonder if Michael Wallis is ready to start another Novel??? I think I will write him a note and see if he is interested in something like "Chinatown Revisited" Complete with Crooked Politicians,,, Mysterious Waterlines they work on in the Middle of the night,,,Deals Made on Promises that Your Nose will be spared if you Put my Muscle Men in the right Seats, Hell, Bob Lorton is not too old to play in a Movie if we could get that off the ground....... Mayor Bill could make a Cameo in it Carrying A Briefcase Filled Mith Mountains of Cash.... With a Big V on the Side..........and hand out cards saying Choose Which one Of these "Bill's" You Want before they all Dissapear....... jdb--- you are a genius WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THIS SOONER? We could Have Crimes Throughout With Bob Poe as the arch-villain............He could even Have Lines Like, "Don't Worry Boys, The Fix is In With The Coppers, They Don't Even Have The Fire Power To Kill a Skeet" ( Skeet could of course be played by Clay Bird................) *To make this qualify as a post I guess I should Congratulate the 36 New Police Officers that graduated from the Academy Yesterday.......... Put Your 401K Heavy into Kevlar.. From what I have read the price will go up...*** [}:)] Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 18, 2004, 12:49:12 pm "Can you name ONE time that a death of a civilian while either in TPD custody or making an arrest has NOT been ruled JUSTIFIED??????
Name ONE. You CANNOT. " -Exactly, because there has not been one death by a civilian that could be ruled anything else but justified. TPD has been right in the use of deadly force 100% of the time. Would you rather we lower our percentage down to 70% or 80% to ease your conspiratorial mind? "Recently your fellow officers in Stillwater crushed the lungs of a 38 year old mother who had a problem with these THREE MALE officers forceably removing her pantyhose while in police custody" -Don't group me in with Stillwater PD. I don't know one officer over there. I have no idea what happened over there. "Carry high capacity firearms. Carry fully automatic M-16's" -I would be happy if Tulsa was like Mayberry. Where I didn't even need to carry a firearm or just carried one bullet for my gun in my pocket. However, that is simply not the case in Tulsa. The last few shooting homicides that have occurred have been with SKS's or AK47's. I don't know if you are familiar with these weapons but they are assault weapons. They both have high capacity magazines (30-50 round) and they shoot 7.62mm bullets. These rounds easily go thru our vests. In fact, the rounds went completely thru the vehicles the victims were sitting in. The only part of the vehicle the rounds did not travel thru were the engine blocks. Look at the bank robbery in L.A. Where the suspects has body armor and automatic weapons and that was before the Brady Bill was expired. Look at the total carnage they caused. Officers had only 9mm pistols and were completely ineffective. As a result, the episode lasted over 2 hours.An AR-15 or M-16 would have ended that mess and alot less people would have been shot. "I also notice a strong trend in police behavior where they don't display a name-tape on their uniform, in order to HIDE their identity, and sometimes even wear a mask to disguise their identity." -In Tulsa there are about 50 or 60 officers that do undercover work. Since the department has so few officers these same officers have to also run the search warrants or arrest warrants they generate. As you can imagine, if the officer wants to stay undercover or if they are doing another case undercover then they may need to HIDE their identity when they execute the warrant. They may even wear a mask so the suspect doesn't see their face and tell everyone they know, "HEY, THAT PERSON IS A POLICE OFFICER!" In a city the size of Tusla it doesn't take long before bad guys start to talk and they recognize you. You hear the inevitable "Hey, that dude's a cop." To futher complete this answer, maybe you haven't noticed but Tulsa has seen an explosion in the Hispanic population. Well, alot of drug trafficking (It's spelled like that in the statute) is occurring with this new influx of people. Some of these people are great citizens that want to have a better life and others are Mexican gang members ect. Some of these Mexican gangs have rewards for killing cops or members of cops families so they can't testify in court or to scare other cops. Even members of the Crips and Bloods have been known to talk about it and some have actually made plans to do it. If you have our names then it is not real hard to find out where we live. I'm not saying this happens all the time but it is being documented around the country at an increasing rate and I know I don't want to be that "blip" you spoke of in your previous post. "I estimate that 10 civilians are killed every year on average by TPD, either "pointed a gun", or "resisting arrest", or dead in custody from "heart attack" or "drug-induced heart attack", or shot while "trying to escape". " -Ever thought those "10 civilians" were killed because deadly force had to be utilized because they pointed a gun, resisted arrest and tried to kill us? Maybe they actually had a heart attack in custody, whether it was drug-induced or not? No one has been killed while trying to escape in along time. The fleeing felon law ended about 25 years ago. "WOD in turn - (being a WAR after all) lead to a WAR on AMERICANS by the Police. It's the increased militarization of the police that evolved from the WOD that is causing the carnage." -Ever thought that maybe the "drugs" is what is causing the carnage. For drug dealers, crime is a career. It is how they make their living.They will take unspeakable measures to make sure that nobody infringes upon their success, whether it's police or other dope dealers looking to rip them off. The user on the other hand usually becomes an addict and will rob, burglarize, steal, sale their bodies or lie to get another hit. I don't have the research to back this up but I would estimate "drugs" are responsible for about 70% of all the crime in Tulsa. By the way, I'm not responding to your posts trying to change or mind. I know I can't but I am hoping to just give another perspective for the other people who are reading this discussion. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 18, 2004, 04:58:25 pm quote: There's nothing in the TPD investigative standards or the DA's playbook except a RUBBER STAMP for the TPD's use of force as JUSTIFIED. Maybe there were just a few cases of Just-I-Lied for Justified? You'd have to admit that the Law of Probability, unlike the Law of Gravity, is being defied by ZERO wrongful death determinations in respect to TPD use of force? ZERO cases, EVER? Hmmmmmmh? Suggestion to TPD: And, again, for the RECORD, the following comments are NOT a TERRORISTIC THREAT; Repeat, Not A Terroristic Threat. Comments are Intended as only a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, intended for instruction and education of this Forum: >Your friends in blue are wasting a lot of time and energy stomping on handcuffed prisoners. Take a note from the Khymer Rouge Prisoner Management Playbook: Here's the 5 EASY steps: 1) Hand-cuff prisoner with hands BEHIND back. This is TPD SOP, so you're already GOOD at doing Step 1. 2) Place small plastic bag over prisoner's head. 3) Tie plastic bag at base snugly around prisoner's neck, using string, rope, wire or duct tape. In the event you have used up supplies of rope, string, wire or duct tape, even the prisoners shoe laces will do nicely. 4) Take a short Coffee Break while prisoner quickly suffocates. 5) After prisoner's vital signs indicate death, remove plastic bag from prisoner's head for possible future use (bag condition warranting), and to remove any bothersome evidence. How HANDY! Much handier than the proverbial police "Read Prisoner the Phone Book". And, again, for the RECORD, the following comments are NOT a TERRORISTIC THREAT; Repeat, Not A Terroristic Threat. Comments are Intended as only a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, intended for instruction and education of this Forum: Know about "Reading the Phonebook"? >Here's the 4 EASY instruction Steps from the Memphis PD User Manual: 1) Place phonebook against Prisoner's head. 2) STRIKE handbook with rubber hammer, mallet, hammer, or even your fist if other tools are lacking. 3) Prisoner is immediately rendered unconscious. 4) Avoids those PESKY bruises or abrasions on the prisoner's head. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on December 18, 2004, 05:24:50 pm Sounds like the tactics used by some Chicago cops 10 or so years ago. The end result is that a few Death Row inmates had their sentences commuted by the governor.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 18, 2004, 05:42:25 pm quote: Yes, Gov. Ryan did both pardon a few, and commute a large number of Death Row sentences, just prior to leaving office. His contemporaneous comments, carried repeatedly on C-Span at the time, were a carefully chronologued history of abuses of the criminal justice system perpetrated against the citizens of Illinois. Really a totally damning indictment of capital punishment. Catch his comments again sometime. He's now under Federal Indictment, for his campaign workers' violations of campaign law, as well as certain close advisors selling favors. Is this Payback for his daring to question the Government-is-God-and-is-therefore-ALWAYS-RIGHT mentality? Amnesty International/Amnesty USA have some shocking reports on the the U.S. Justice System on their website. See www.amnesty.org for details Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 18, 2004, 05:52:55 pm quote: Mr. Uranus, You are wasting so much space with so little to say. You are a virtual fountain of knowledge about things that you can't prove or know very little about, If you could prove them I do not believe there is a soul on these forums that does not believe you and your Attorney would be on the Courthouse steps......... You are no Angela Davis..... You are no Jerry Rubin..... Allthough if You had been able to put your name in a famous or infamous category it would have probably been for hurting yourself while Blowing Your Nose. Take some Vitamin C and a couple of shots of your Evan Williams and have a good long nap I for one do not believe all Police are Saints. That being said, To embrace your ideology that there is a Nationwide Plot to Keep The People In Their Place Is as Paranoid as some of the things Crack Smokers come up with!!!!! You have obviousely Failed in any attempt to Organize a Following for The Smoke coming from your Behind, or you would be as infamous as Sonny Barger in these parts.. GIVE IT A REST!! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 18, 2004, 06:06:52 pm quote: There's REALLY no need for PERSONAL attacks. Please, in the future, just SHOW ME where I'm wrong! I'm alleging NO conspiracy. Rather, simple put: >Police are not INDEPENDENT to investigate their own alleged wrongdoing. Similarly, the local DA is not INDEPENDENT to investigate allegations of police misconduct, because of the extreme civil liability for the city/county for rulings substantiating police misconduct. Rather, a functioning CITIZEN REVIEW BOARD is badly needed here in Tulsa to INDEPENDENTLY review and investigate allegations of police misconduct. The core problem with our justice system is the previous paragraph. By the way, the POLICE control the evidence of every investigation. That's probably why they strenuously do NOT want those pesky camcorders in their police cars. Because the media will be INDEPENDENT evidence from what they SAY in their official police reports....... Someday, someone in Tulsa will independently record acts of police misconduct. Then, you will see the Police and DA spring into action like a hungry tiger! How, you ask? By charging the WITNESS with a Felony of Interferring with an Official Police Investigation!!!! Just wait and see. It's only a matter of time..... Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 18, 2004, 06:56:34 pm Mr. Uranus, you do not lay sole Right to the Truth..
"No personal attacks" It was not a personal attack. Merely a Statement of the Facts.............. Prove me Wrong [}:)] Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on December 19, 2004, 01:37:34 am Uranus, are you or are you not the crazed man named Paul Tay?
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 19, 2004, 02:01:52 am "There's nothing in the TPD investigative standards or the DA's playbook except a RUBBER STAMP for the TPD's use of force as JUSTIFIED.
Maybe there were just a few cases of Just-I-Lied for Justified? You'd have to admit that the Law of Probability, unlike the Law of Gravity, is being defied by ZERO wrongful death determinations in respect to TPD use of force? ZERO cases, EVER? Hmmmmmmh?" - I don't have to admit to anything that is a lie. There is no incident in recent history where the use of deadly force by TPD was not justified. If you know something I don't then state the case. Otherwise, just continue with your pitiful conspiratorial ideas if it makes you feel better. "By the way, the POLICE control the evidence of every investigation. That's probably why they strenuously do NOT want those pesky camcorders in their police cars. Because the media will be INDEPENDENT evidence from what they SAY in their official police reports" -Actually I and most other officers would love to have camcorders with mics in our police cars. It would be a great source of evidence against criminals. "Police are not INDEPENDENT to investigate their own alleged wrongdoing. Similarly, the local DA is not INDEPENDENT to investigate allegations of police misconduct, because of the extreme civil liability for the city/county for rulings substantiating police misconduct. Rather, a functioning CITIZEN REVIEW BOARD is badly needed here in Tulsa to INDEPENDENTLY review and investigate allegations of police misconduct." -Ask former officer Robert Rolen Jr. about TPD and the local DA's ability to investigate police misconduct and then give special treatment...(In case you have forgotten) Former Tulsa police officer sentenced to 10 years on drug charges BILL BRAUN World Staff Writer 07/27/2002 Tulsa World (Final Home Edition), Page a15 of News A judge sentenced former Tulsa Police Officer Robert Rolen Jr. on Friday to 10 years in prison for drug-relatedcrimes that a prosecutor categorized as a "betrayal of trust." Tulsa County Associate District Judge Deirdre Dexter did not follow a Department of Corrections background report, which recommended that Rolen be placed on probation as a first-time, nonviolent offender. "I can't believe this," Rolen said before being escorted by deputy sheriffs to jail. At a sentencing hearing Friday, defense attorney Kevin Adams said prosecutors "want to throw the book at Mr. Rolen" in a case in which Rolen's co-defendant and girlfriend, Shannon Dugan, received a five-year probation on July 15. "Treat him equally," Adams urged on Rolen's behalf. Dugan is "arguably more culpable," and "she is less willing to accept responsibility." But Assistant District Attorney Larry Edwards said that based on his former status as a police officer and his "betrayal of the justice system," Rolen "should be treated differently." Edwards questioned "how many cases are we going to lose" because jurors no longer believe police because they have heard about Rolen's activities. Rolen, 39, pleaded guilty June 3 to three felonies -- delivery of methamphetamine, possession of methamphetamine with an intent to distribute and possessing a firearm while in the commission of a felony -- and one misdemeanor -- possession of drug paraphernalia. He had no deal with prosecutors to govern his punishment. Edwards said no plea negotiation had been extend ed to Rolen because "we wanted a jury of his peers to decide what this case was worth." Dexter handed Rolen three 10-year prison terms for the felonies and a one-year jail sentence for the misdemeanor, all to run concurrently. She also imposed about $50,000 in fines and victims compensation assessments, although such financial penalties typically go uncollected while a defendant is in prison. Police Chief Ron Palmer fired Rolen, a patrol officer, in February 2001, 10 days after he was charged. Rolen had been with the department since 1985, having joined the force as a community service officer. He became a full- fledged police officer in 1993. Charges were filed after a woman who admitted being a methamphetamine user cooperated with investigators and made a "controlled buy" at the defendants' Tulsa residence. She indicated that she obtained the "dope" from Dugan while Rolen stood in a doorway. Officers searched the residence a day later and recovered methamphetamine from Dugan's robe pocket and from a bedroom dresser, police reported. The firearm count stemmed from evidence that two loaded handguns -- including Rolen's service revolver -- were recovered from the bedroom. According to a background report, Rolen indicated that he agreed to give the informant half a gram of methamphetamine for $50 after she called repeatedly "begging for some." He said he had been selling $50 worth of meth every couple of days out of his residence after purchasing the drugs from various suppliers. Edwards noted that a marijuana smoking pipe was also recovered from Rolen's patrol unit. Rolen said he began selling drugs because of "financial difficulties," including child-support payments, police reported. Rolen has five children with three ex-wives. In one domestic case, Special Judge Darlene Crutchfield in June found him in contempt of court for not making child-support payments and sentenced him to 180 days in jail. He has been serving that time on weekends, records show. While free on bail and awaiting sentencing in the drug case, he tested positive for methamphetamine usage, a report said. Dugan pleaded guilty to three counts -- delivery of methamphetamine, possession of methamphetamine with intent to distribute and possession of drug paraphernalia. You can also look at the other TPD officers who have been fired for wrongdoing. Some were fired before their criminal cases went to court. Some of those people were even found innocent and had to sue to get their jobs back (Ofc. Orlando Lace,Ofc. Anna Coudry, ect) TPD police ourselves just fine. Most of us believe there is nothing worse than a dirty cop! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 19, 2004, 08:35:29 am quote: I would say that Rico's earlier comments concerning me, to wit: "Allthough if You had been able to put your name in a famous or infamous category it would have probably been for hurting yourself while Blowing Your Nose. Take some Vitamin C and a couple of shots of your Evan Williams and have a good long nap." Those did seem RATHER like a Personal Attack. Personal attacks do NOTHING to advance the validity of one's argument. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 19, 2004, 09:01:08 am quote: Citing the misfortune of TDP Officer Rolen is skirting the question of the carte-blanche that police have in their conduct that is judged "line of duty". What Mr. Rolen was doing was OUTSIDE of his duties. And, as your news quote shows, he received a harsher than recommended sentence because he caused a blemish on the "honor" of the Tulsa Police Dept. As a first time offender, DOC recommended him for probation, just like his co-defendant. He got 10 years. Seems like someone was applying unequal justice in his case. >Say, isn't Mr. Rolen going to have a hard time making those Child Support payments for his 5 children while he's in prison? >You left out the case of a few years back when the two TPD officers that were fired for stopping and holding a family at gun-point for the alleged infraction of their kid tossing an empty can of pop out of the car, striking their vehicle. It was over on U.S. 75; remember? This male/female TPD duo had the entire family spread-eagled beside the car with their guns pointing at the family. Problem was, there were just a few TOO many witnesses to that escapade. Remember? Didn't they get FIRED for exercising poor judgment? Did you know them? I'm glad we BOTH support the use of camcorders in all TPD vehicles. Actually, I don't see it ever happening here in Tulsa. I do NOT believe the FOP is in favor of it, because on balance, it does tend to independently document evidence of occasional police misconduct, and the FOP just does not want that kind of evidence being around. And while we're at it, how about a streaming video helmet worn by TPD when they interact with civilians? The technology is available. Guess when can expect the streaming video helmets AFTER the TPD car camcorders. Sometime I need to hear your opinion on what Continuum of Force means? To me, it seems to mean that the police, who can never just BACK-OFF, keep applying greater and greater amounts of force until the civilian is dead? Right? Even if it's only a traffic stop for running a Yellow Light? Right? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 19, 2004, 11:16:03 am "Citing the misfortune of TDP Officer Rolen is skirting the question of the carte-blanche that police have in their conduct that is judged "line of duty".
-First off Rolen was a dirty cop that decided to deal drugs. There is no "misfortune" there.It is punishment for a crime. I'm glad he got ten years. I cited him so people would realize the constant scrutiny police officers are under whether it is on the job or off. "You left out the case of a few years back when the two TPD officers that were fired for stopping and holding a family at gun-point for the alleged infraction of their kid tossing an empty can of pop out of the car, striking their vehicle. It was over on U.S. 75; remember? This male/female TPD duo had the entire family spread-eagled beside the car with their guns pointing at the family. Problem was, there were just a few TOO many witnesses to that escapade. Remember? Didn't they get FIRED for exercising poor judgment? Did you know them?" -It was Buddy and Lori Visser and they did get fired. However, the incident did not happen exactly like you said. Once again I don't know where you get your info but it's wrong. Basically, it was a road rage deal and a few members of the family started throwing things out of the car and hitting the Visser's vehicle. I don't know if you know this but it is a felony to throw things from a moving vehicle or to try and hit a moving vehicle with any object. State law requires that if sworn police officers witness a felony then they are compelled to act. The Vissers acted and the situation went downhill even faster then it already was. None of the occupants of the vehicle complied with lawful commands and guns had to be drawn. Once the facts of the case was known, no charges were filed against the Vissers and they sued to get their jobs back. The both won their jobs back in Arbitration. "I do NOT believe the FOP is in favor of it, because on balance, it does tend to independently document evidence of occasional police misconduct, and the FOP just does not want that kind of evidence being around." -I'm a member of the FOP and we do want camcorders in the vehicles as long as their is also audio. Like I said, It would be great evidence against criminals. "And while we're at it, how about a streaming video helmet worn by TPD when they interact with civilians? The technology is available. Guess when can expect the streaming video helmets AFTER the TPD car camcorders." -Technology is too expensive, they won't even give us camcorders. Also, sometimes people want to talk to us anonymously. They would not want to be recorded. "Sometime I need to hear your opinion on what Continuum of Force means? To me, it seems to mean that the police, who can never just BACK-OFF, keep applying greater and greater amounts of force until the civilian is dead? Right? Even if it's only a traffic stop for running a Yellow Light? Right?" -When I have time I will write down the TPD Use of Force policy. It's no secret. Police do "just BACK-OFF" sometimes. Vehicle pursuits are canceled around Tulsa all the time because they become to dangerous. On the other hand, when a criminal breaks the law (murder, rape, domestic violence, robbery ect.) and they get caught, they have to go to jail. It's not optional. They can't say, "I'll got to jail later, I'm not feeling like it today, or I'm just not going to jail." Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 19, 2004, 11:49:08 pm quote: I'm already quite familiar with the retro-Oklahoma statute that makes it a felony to throw an object at a moving vehicle. >Mr. Paul Tay's case of "throwing his water bottle at a moving vehicle" got him a Felony charge. The TPD was "right there" to swoop in to make an arrest OF MR TAY, after the vehicle involved tried to RUN OVER HIS BICYCLE and KILL HIM. >Then, the TPD piled on and charged him with wearing a protective vest while in commission of a felony, the Felony being tossing his water bottle at car that was trying to KILL HIM. >>Guess in all that excitement that TPD forgot to charge Mr. Mystery Man with the attempted Vehicular Homicide of Mr. Tay? >>Ah, the Vissers. Couple of real Sweethearts. Uh, they weren't actually in a marked vehicle that got into what you described as a "road rage" incident? Couldn't have been a TPD cruiser, could it, since they were headed home outside of the City Limits of Tulsa, and the TPD take-home policy requires officers to leave their TPD vehicle within the City Limits of Tulsa? >>The civilians involved didn't realize they were dealing with a couple of psycho-cops who had run THEM off the road, then started waving guns in their faces. >>Wonder if the family involved with the Vissers got any financial settlement from the City of Tulsa for the Vissers' Oppression in Office? It's really scary knowing that volatile personalities like the Vissers are "protecting" me tonite. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 20, 2004, 12:08:32 am SOUNDS LIKE THE CITY OF TULSA WAS SAVED A LOT OF HUMILIATION WITH THIS "TAY" FELLOW BEING ARRESTED! WHAT KIND OF "5150" WAS HE? BULLET PROOF VEST OR SOMETHING HEAVING LITTLE PISSY WATER BOTTLES AT CARS! MY APOLOGIES IF "5150" IS NOT THE OKLAHOMA STATUTE THAT MORE OR LESS IDENTIFIES AN OFFENDER AS BEING, DRESSED IN SARAN WRAP WAVING A SWORD IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BA AT RUSH HOUR...................... THAT IS THE CALIF STATUTE # Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 20, 2004, 06:02:00 pm quote: At first I thought Paul Tay was funny and was just trying to exercise his freedom of speech in some misguided way. Later, I realized he was mentally unstable or maybe he became mentally unstable. Either way, I didn't really worry about him until he started saying he was going to kill the police and all the people who were after him. He really became a concern when he got a hold of some body armor was rumored to also be carrying a handgun. He was wearing the body armor when he was riding his bicycle towing a large penis before he got arrested. About this time, he went over the edge are really became a danger to himself and others. I don't think anyone tried to hit him with the vehicle. If I remember right, he made that up to get some more attention but he did throw a water bottle at a car and caused some damage on the vehicle. He used to have a website but I don't think it is up anymore. Last I heard of him, he got arrested in OKC and was doing time in the Oklahoma County Jail. I hope they got him some mental health help. As far as the Vissers go. They both are good officers. Check out all the awards and commendations they have received. You need to check your TPD Policy and Procedure book before you start trying to quote policy. They were in Buddy's city vehicle. SOT members can take their city vehicle's home even if they live ourside the city limits. The road rage family knew they were the police when everyone got pulled over and just didn't care. The famiies case got dimissed in State court and then they tried to sue them in Federal court. I don't think that got very far either. I don't remember a settlement ever being reached. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 20, 2004, 07:16:00 pm quote: --The road rage I was referring to was the VISSER's Road Rage, not the civilian family. It was the Vissers who went stark, raving mad at the family because a pop can came sailing out of the car, and boinged their automobile. --Oh, I'm not in the least concerned that an empty pop can is a Felony; EVERYTHING is a possible FELONY in a retro state like Oklahoma. Until it was recently increased, Oklahoma had the LOWEST threshold in the nation for a felony involving money, like for Larceny: $50.00. How DO you think that Oklahoma got the dubious distinction of the #1 Female Incarceration Rate in the U.S., and the #4 Male Incarceration Rate in the U.S.? --Spitting on a police officer is a Felony which got a defendant in Creek County a LIFE Sentence. --So Mr. Visser is on the TPD SWAT Team? That's scary. I cannot think of a least suitable candidate than some volatile hothead like officer Visser to be in charge of assault rifles, large bore sniper rifles, and carrying a legal license to "shoot on sight". That is absolutely SCARY. The guy needs to be a TPD file clerk, where he can't be a danger to anyone, except maybe himself with a self-inflicted paper cut. --I've never met Mr. Tay. I didn't agree with his tactics or his message. I saw him riding his bike around Tulsa. But, he wasn't hurting anyone. He probably got the protective vest because people were always throwing things at HIM. THEY didn't get arrested, did THEY? Yet, if anyone in the Tulsa judiciary ever bothered to read the U.S. Constitution (which they haven't, evidently), they would know what he was doing is protected by the 1st Amendment (Bill of Rights - EVER heard of it?). Someone, probably the Mayor, wanted him off the streets. It was a TPD set-up deal to first provoke a angry reaction by trying to run over him, then swoop down and make a multi-felony arrest to put him away for a long time. The guy was harmless. And, I don't buy your Faux-Concern about his mental state; he was taken to TULSA COUNTY JAIL, not Parkside. He was jailed for several months in OKC (couldn't make bail) for trying to "disrupt" a demonstration being held outside the State Capitol. I think his Bat-Bike was involved there, too. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 20, 2004, 10:31:49 pm "The road rage I was referring to was the VISSER's Road Rage, not the civilian family. It was the Vissers who went stark, raving mad at the family because a pop can came sailing out of the car, and boinged their automobile."
-So taking an oath to enforce the law and then doing what you took an oath to do is the definition of "stark, raving mad". Remember throwing an object from a moving vehicle or hitting a moving vehicle is a felony. We don't make the laws, we just enforce them. "Spitting on a police officer is a Felony which got a defendant in Creek County a LIFE Sentence. " -The "Placing bodily fluid upon a government employee" law was introduced in Oklahoma in 1996 and was aimed at protecting police officers from people with Aids and other diseases attacking and possibly infecting them. But that wasn't why he got a life sentence. The spitting on a police officer charge was John Marquez's third felony offense. He had previous felony convictions, one of them was for 1st Degree Rape. As far as the spitting incident itself, Mr. Marquez spat at police officer Charles Gadd as he was being arrested following a domestic argument in which Marquez broke his wife's arm. Marquez spat at the officer despite being warned not to and then bit the officer as he tried to stop him from spitting. He received a one-year sentence for the misdeamnor charge of domestic violence (the strongest sentence they could impose) but the jury (not the police or judge) recommended a life sentence for the spitting on a police officer charge. "So Mr. Visser is on the TPD SWAT Team? That's scary. I cannot think of a least suitable candidate than some volatile hothead like officer Visser to be in charge of assault rifles, large bore sniper rifles, and carrying a legal license to "shoot on sight". That is absolutely SCARY." -Mr. Visser is a sniper on the SOT team. He has won national awards for his marksmanship and numerous Police awards. He is a decorated officer and one of the best marksman on the department. He has an distinguished record and has served the city exceptionally. "Yet, if anyone in the Tulsa judiciary ever bothered to read the U.S. Constitution (which they haven't, evidently), they would know what he was doing is protected by the 1st Amendment (Bill of Rights - EVER heard of it?). Someone, probably the Mayor, wanted him off the streets. It was a TPD set-up deal to first provoke a angry reaction by trying to run over him, then swoop down and make a multi-felony arrest to put him away for a long time." - I'm not sure riding around on a bicycle towing a large penis is covered under the 1st Amendment. Even though he was never arrested for that. He usually was written tickets for traffic violations (no headlight on bicycle at night, right of way violations, bicycles on a highway or interstate, impeding the flow of traffic ect.) and when he refused to show up at court or would not pay the fine then he was arrested for the outstanding warrants. -Let me get this straight, you think TPD had nothing better to do then to get together and set up Paul Tay? That we all conspired to secretly make Paul mad and entrap him? You need to get back on your meds or go visit Doctor's hospital for awhile. Paul's state convictions in Tulsa were on 06/14/2004 and 07/23/04. On 06/14/2004 Paul got charged with Trespass after being forbidden,fail to signal and obstructing an officer. He received six months in Tulsa County Jail/Suspended. On 07/23/2004 Paul Tay got 3 years deferred and a fine on the charges of throwing object at motor vehcile,assualt on a police officer and use of body armor in commision of a felony. Paul has yet to be sentenced to time actually in the Jail in Tulsa County so when you say "make a multi-felony arrest to put him away for a long time" you have no idea what you are talking about. "The guy was harmless. And, I don't buy your Faux-Concern about his mental state; he was taken to TULSA COUNTY JAIL, not Parkside." -Paul had an extensive mental health history and was taken to Parkside and then to Doctor's hospital a few times. As far as my concern, I have a Master's degree in Psychology so I do have some concern with people's mental state. However, TPD has strict guidelines about EOD's and usually he did not fall into those guidelines. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Kiah on December 21, 2004, 08:18:26 am quote: quote: quote: It just gets scarier and scarier. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 21, 2004, 09:13:00 am quote: Say, it occurred to me to ask: Are you monitoring www.tulsanow.org as part of your official LEO duties? Hmmmmh? As to the size of Mr. Tay's obscene prop attached to an antenna on his Bat-Bike, it appeared of a normal size to me. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on December 21, 2004, 02:41:01 pm <start clip>
His contemporaneous comments, carried repeatedly on C-Span at the time, were a carefully chronologued history of abuses of the criminal justice system perpetrated against the citizens of Illinois. Really a totally damning indictment of capital punishment. Catch his comments again sometime. He's now under Federal Indictment, for his campaign workers' violations of campaign law, as well as certain close advisors selling favors. Is this Payback for his daring to question the Government-is-God-and-is-therefore-ALWAYS-RIGHT mentality? <end clip> The answer to your question is: No. As a former Illinoisan, I can tell you that the investigation of former Gov. George Ryan on the bribes-for-driver's-licenses scandal was ongoing for *years* before he commuted the death sentence, back in the days when Ryan was secretary of state. Dozens and dozens of state officials were charged and convicted, including his own chief of staff (before the commutation, by the way). The tentacles of the scandal extended all the way to the top. Many people, myself included, initially thought that Ryan commuted death sentences as a political move or as a way to cement his legacy. Because reaction was so unpopular, I don't think he did it for the former. Perhaps the latter, given his upcoming legal problems, but I'm more unsure now. With the passage of time and subsequent reports about Ryan, I'm strongly inclined to believe that he commuted the sentences because he had a big change of heart about the death penalty -- namely, that it is patently unfair to the poor or minority people. Without fairness in the sytem, the death penalties had to be eliminated. Because if you execute someone and find out later you made a mistake (and grave mistakes had already been found), you can't take it back. I, who once was a supporter of the death penalty but now takes a dim view of it, applaud his decision. I just wish that his conscience had bothered him more years earlier when all those staffers under him accepted bribes for driver's licenses. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 21, 2004, 04:34:45 pm quote: Sounds more than plausible. Ryan certainly SOUNDED sincere in his televised remarks about the perversity of the Death Penalty as administered in Illinois. Also, a number of the pardons or commutations were done because of some reasonably solid evidence of severe police misconduct, i.e. the use of torture to extract confessions - King Daley the II's Chicago PD, of course. Evidently, there were also too few funds in Illinois alloted for Indigent Defense, which has been a problem in many states; especially Texas, but also in Oklahoma in the not too distant past. Say, WHY would anyone need to PAY a bribe to get an Illinois Driver's License? Were they that THAT difficult to get? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on December 21, 2004, 06:23:12 pm <start clip>
Say, WHY would anyone need to PAY a bribe to get an Illinois Driver's License? Were they that THAT difficult to get? <end clip> Illegal aliens and those who had no business driving (revoked, suspended, etc.) were getting the licenses. The bribes were used to fudge test results or other paperwork. The whole scheme blew up about five years ago when a truck driver who had one of those improperly obtained licenses caused a huge wreck on the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago. A family or four or five died in the fiery wreck. Once the Chicago newspapers started sniffing around on why the wreck happened, the lid on the whole mess came off. The corruption in the secretary of state's office under Ryan was awe-inspiring in its breadth and brazenness. That was one of the big reasons why Ryan became one of the most unpopular governors in history (one of the other reasons was he reneged on a promise and jacked up fees and taxes. From then on, Illinoisans started calling them "tax-and-spend Republicans."). The state GOP under Ryan was rotten to the core -- brimming with kickbacks, bribes and other corruption that's too long a list to mention here. The Democrats ran an anti-corruption theme to the state elections and won big. Gov. Ryan's saga is one reason why I'm highly skeptical when Republicans start touting "morals" and being the "party of virtue." When someone starts spouting morals, I think he's got something to hide. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 22, 2004, 06:26:57 am quote: Interesting. Wonder if Al Queda got any of those Illinois D.L.'s? Was GOP Speaker of the House Denny Hastert involved in the corrupt Illinois GOP political machine? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 22, 2004, 01:49:12 pm quote: What can I say, I subscribe to a contemporary behavioral viewpoint. Oh by the way, I still believe George Bush will help America acheive a great next four years and I still say F$#% Kerry and the Democrates. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on December 22, 2004, 08:50:57 pm <start clip>
Interesting. Wonder if Al Queda got any of those Illinois D.L.'s? Was GOP Speaker of the House Denny Hastert involved in the corrupt Illinois GOP political machine? <end clip> No al-Qaidans that we know of (interesting angle I hadn't considered, however). Based on what I've read, most of the illegal aliens who got the licenses were Mexicans and Poles. Remember, Chicago has a big population of Polish immigrants. Based on what I've read, Hastert had no involvement in the corruption whatsoever. Remember, he's been a congressman for more than 10 years -- well before Ryan's corruption at the secretary of state's office began. Privately, a lot of Illinois Republicans I know would like to string up George Ryan from the tallest flagpole in Springfield. He singlehandedly devastated the Illinois GOP, probably for at least another decade. I have no direct evidence for this, but there's a strong indication that the state GOP's corruption problems began during Gov. Jim Thompson's tenure. It waned with Gov. Jim Edgar, mostly because he wouldn't have tolerated it. Edgar was known for being the toughest secretary of state in the country on drunk drivers. Corruption under Edgar's watch is unfathomable. It just wouldn't have happened, period. And during Ryan's tenure as governor when all the sh-- was hitting the fan, Edgar publicly said he was extremely unhappy about it. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on December 24, 2004, 09:25:43 am quote: BACK on topic as to Tulsa being Oklahoma's most dangerous city.... Could it be that the resurfacing job on Tulsa's Riverside Drive where the lady's car JUMPED the curb yesterday and plunged into the icy Arkansas River with her car-seat bound baby was due to the following little problem: Whenever the last resurfacing was done on this portion of Riverside Drive, rather than properly chew up the old asphalt and THEN re-surface, they just RE-SURFACED? As a result, the height of the curb is TOO LOW in this section of road to readily deter car tires from riding up over the curb and then proceeding through the bikepath, and in this case, promptly plunging the vehicle into the river. Wasn't a prominent local architect STEAMROLLERED by another runaway car a few years ago, as he blissfully jogged along the Arkansas River right about this same spot where this "accident" happened yesterday? He never saw it coming because he was jogging south and the car was also heading south, and rode over the curb and killed him. Just an "accident". Hmmmmh? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 24, 2004, 02:30:27 pm I don't know what the deal was with the vehicle that went into the Arkansas river. It happened on one of my days off. Thank God for the 18 year old soldier. That could have been a real tragedy.
Just FYI: Friday 1430 hours: UDN 3 calls waiting assignment UDE 2 calls waiting assignment UDSW 1 call waiting assignment Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on December 24, 2004, 04:52:09 pm I think Uranus needs to start drinking decaf.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: D.Schuttler on December 24, 2004, 11:55:23 pm quote: Little too active in my area Thursday(withen a half mile,2 robberies,1 stabbing,1 shots fired.... At least no helicopter was circling around all night but Oh, my house has been sound insulated for thousands of your tax dollars I forgot !!!! Must be the noise of the new air system when they do circle around. My Bad Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Pluto74114 on December 25, 2004, 08:34:16 am quote: Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 27, 2004, 08:18:19 am With the end of the year almost here I was wondering, just how valid is the statement, "Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma"!!!?
After all I have read that this is all about the Police not getting more money....... That we are being compared unreasonably to other Cities........ ETC.... ETC..... ETC.... So I decided to look at the Crime Stats For 2004.. Although these figures are just tallied through October they give us a look at the end of the year numbers....... HOMICIDE.. Stands at 40, Beating every Year other than 2003 and that is without November and December. RAPE.. Stands at 298, Beating every year other than 2001 and 2003.. The number for 2001 was 300... The number for 2003 was 310........ I think when November and December are added in we will have a new record!........ ROBBERY.. Stands at 850 already ahead of 2000 and 2001, The 4 year average for November is 73..... The four year average for December is 79...... Once these are added in we may have a New Record For Robbery as well....... The Record was 953 set in 2002.......... Now for the GOOD News!!!.. ASSAULT.. Stands at 2879 through October... The four year average for November is 240... The four year average for December is 250..... With these two added in at years end we may be below 2000 and 2001.. BUT ABOVE 2002 AND 2003............ "LOOKS LIKE WE ARE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION MAYOR BILL!!!" Just one other short note I was wondering, and possibly MH2010 knows the answer,? Is the Tulsa Fire Dept undergoing the Same sort of Problems?????????? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 27, 2004, 11:25:34 am quote: TFD is having some of the same problems TPD is having. They did not have a fire academy for two years. However, they are doing better with manpower issues because they are not having people leave at the rate we are. One of the reasons is because there no federal agencies that raid TFD for recruits. There is no DEA,FBI,CIA,USMS, Secret Service ect for firefighters. Back to why this thread was started, this thread began because KOTV did a story about Tulsa being Oklahoma's most dangerous city. Also, the Federal government name Tulsa in the 15 cities where crime was so bad they were going to send extra federal agents to the cities to help. Now, I will jump back on my soap box for a moment..... The arguement moved to police pay because it a huge factor in fighting crime. When police are paid more you get better applicants that make better police officers.(The academy class that starts in January will have 47 recruits. You know why there are 47 recruits? Because we could only find 47 qualified applicants out of the hiring pool. They wanted 50 recruits but just couldn't find them in the application pool. More and more applicants are going to other agencies that pay better.)Experienced officers stay in Tulsa instead of moving to better paying jobs, and more pay for more police officers keep more police officers on the street. Why does this help in fighting crime? Some people think that crime would be reported more because officers are catching more people but that is not the case. Robbery, Rape, Burglary and property crimes are mainly crimes of opportunity. Drug dealers usually don't sell drugs when they can see a police car on the street or driving around an area. (Here is an example...Go check out Kendell-Whittier apartment complexes next to Kindell-Whittier elementary school. [it's between Atlanta Avenue and Lewis Avenue on 4th Street, 5th street, 5th place and 6th street.]when police aren't patroling the area there are drug dealers and prostitutes flagging people down on the street corners. When police are actively patroling the area, they all disappear for awhile.) With more police on the street, criminals won't have as many chances to commit the crimes or repeat offenders get caught more quickly. On a brighter note, TPD may reopen the subdivisions after the academy class that just graduated finishes field training in June. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 27, 2004, 01:48:02 pm Mexican Drug Lords Target U.S. Agents
FOX News LAREDO, Texas -- In a new sign that drug-gang violence targeting Mexican law enforcement is bleeding across the border, Mexican drug gangs (search) are now offering a bounty for killing U.S. border agents and state and local law enforcers. U.S. intelligence shows that Mexico's violent and notorious drug-trafficking gang, The Zetas, is targeting the officers, offering $30,000 to $50,000 per assassination. "That is a concern for a lot of us, you know, because these guys are trying to get their product across and we're the blockade here," said Bill Jenkins Jr., assistant chief patrol agent with U.S. Customs and Border Protection, which is part of the Homeland Security Department. The agency confiscated nearly 15,000 pounds of cocaine and more than 1 million pounds of marijuana last year -- just a dent in the multibillion-dollar narcotics trade that, especially on the Mexican side of the border, is increasingly violent between the drug gangs and Mexican law enforcement. In the past couple of weeks, drug gangs are suspected of killing two Mexican cops in Nuevo Laredo and killing three federal agents in a massacre of nine people near Cancun. "That's their economy and we're the stumbling block there. If we're taking away from the profits, they might be getting desperate," Jenkins said. And guess what Mexican gang is starting to show up in Tulsa???? The Zetas!!!! Good news for the New year!! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on December 27, 2004, 01:57:55 pm Cool...maybe the next Grand Theft Auto will be based on us.
Nobody is apparently interested in border security. Though I hear that since the GOP has decided to open the gates, Hillary Clinton may run on a "close the borders" platform in 2008. Is that irony? Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: MH2010 on December 27, 2004, 02:26:36 pm quote: I don't think Tulsa will ever be so bad that we get a Grand Theft auto. It would be fun to play thou. I heard the same thing too. I just don't understand why it seems that no one is interested in more border security. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on December 27, 2004, 02:43:00 pm I was eating at El Rio Verde and saw a new tag on a building to the north. Who are Los Vagos (Los Vargos, something)?
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: D.Schuttler on December 27, 2004, 03:15:20 pm If I was head of the mexican zeta's I would look into a different name.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 27, 2004, 07:56:49 pm quote: Zeta in Spanish means the letter Z......... Possibly,, as in OZ. Not the most intelligent or creative name but for street "LINGO" it will probably pass.. My question is are they connected to or being fronted by "La Familia" or "Nuestra Familia" the larger drug Lord Gangs........??[?] Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: D.Schuttler on December 27, 2004, 10:03:49 pm Maybe they are fans of Catherine Zeta-Jones
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on December 27, 2004, 10:51:03 pm quote: Ayee!!! You make me laugh Senor!!! I hope the Zetas find you as funny a Gringo as I do!...... For more laughs Try the link... I think[8D] http://www.baja.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000162.html Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on January 01, 2005, 05:42:11 am quote: Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on January 01, 2005, 08:17:09 am quote: Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on January 01, 2005, 08:41:46 am This porous border is a ticking time bomb for the Bush administration. All it takes is an al-Qaidan coming into the country through Arizona or something and blowing something up to expose the hypocricy of boss man's so-called "war on terrah."
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Neptune on January 05, 2005, 02:55:55 pm quote:Could be. It would seem to me that in a post-911 world, knowing who is crossing the border would be more important than toppling dictators we don't like. But what do I know? I think the boarder is a fairly complex issue. If the GOP is able to break off some of the "Humanitarian Wing" and "Minority Wing" of the Democratic party, it benefits the GOP greatly. So...it could be pure politics. But, it seems ironic to me that its Bush and the Texicans that are pushing this. If there wasn't somebody making money off this and telling people this is a "good thing", I'd think it would be a hard sell...especially in Texas. These folks still think they are a part of the "Republic," fighting an on-going Alamo against Mexican invasion. Arizona is obviously tired of it, but not Texas? Then theres the price tag. Notice how domestic issues aren't making headlines? The money simply isn't there. We're defeciting ourselves through the Iraq War, and the current administration seems to be happy with that. But if you talk about running a defecit for virtually anything else, its a bad thing. Think about the perceptions and politics around Social Security as compared to those of the Iraq War or TSA. The cost of closing the borders will be substantial. Once again, more political than philosophical. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 06, 2005, 08:42:20 am quote: Things may be improving. Today's Lorton's World a.k.a. the Tulsa World reported that -0- police officers died in the line of duty in Oklahoma during 2004. The last Tulsa PD officer, Officer Dick Hobson, killed in the line of duty occurred back in 1996, shot in a dark alleyway in downtown Tulsa. I suspect the reason for the falling number of LEO's killed in the line of duty is a change in their procedures. They tend to shoot first before attempting an arrest if the suspect appears to be armed. There were a number of suspects gunned down by the Tulsa PD during 2004 who were alleged to have "pointed" a firearm at police. Not "fired" a gun. Just "pointed" a gun. And, they know that dead men tell no tales. Get it. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on January 06, 2005, 09:20:09 am quote: Yesterday there was a story on the News regarding a "Gang" called MS 13.............. The News made it sound as though this was a Maryland based "Gang"...... Anyone that would like to type "MS 13" Into Google will find that it is far more than that..... Something more akin to a mercenary group!!......... This "Gang" has already been found to have smuggled "Al Qaida" suspects into the Country.. The problem with the Border is that, if it were to be sealed up tight, many companies would go belly up!!.. This Administration knows that...... Every other Administration has known that....... Sadly, I think it will take something like "911" or the "OKC Bombing" being directly linked to one of these "Al Qaida" Nuts to make it politically advantageous to do any thing about this............ Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: thetulsan on January 06, 2005, 11:43:11 am Have you heard of Jayna Davis' book, 'The Third Terrorist'? OKC was most certainly tied to Islamaniacs. ['Oh for crying out loud, do NOT get HIM started on THAT!']
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: rwarn17588 on January 06, 2005, 11:48:07 am So when the hell should a cop fire his gun? Wait for a suspect to actually open fire so that the cop can be wasted?
Yeah, I would have changed the procedures, too. You don't want to be shot by a cop? Then leave the gun at home, or leave it in the glovebox. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 06, 2005, 01:32:40 pm quote: I don't want to see the police shot at. In no case I'm referring to in Tulsa where the police shot a suspect did anyone actually shoot AT the POLICE. The common demoninator throughout the last couple of years of TPD shootings of suspects has been the suspect "pointed" a gun at police. Not SHOT at the police. "Pointed" a gun at police. Since no TPD officer has been killed since 1996, it appears that this is evidence of a new dynamic at work in TPD policing. Namely, when these pre-planned arrests and drug raids are launched, the police have already surrounded the residence or building being raided. The suspects do not realize this. The suspects, protecting valuable contraband currently considered "illegal", are defending themselves with firearms from other "competitors" who use violence to control market share. It's all about 'bizness'. So, when a suspect runs out the back door with a gun in their waistband, the police are waiting outback in ambush. The TPD is simply blowing these people away. And, dead men tell no tales. The same thing happened over in Sequoyah Co. a few years ago. The local sheriff and a multi-county drug task force accompanied by the DA (Ms. Barker-Harrold) launched a nightime No-Knock raid on a suspected drug dealer. The suspect was outside working on his car with his pre-teenage son. Unbeknownst to the suspect, a police sniper had already infiltrated his property, and had him zero'd in his telescopic sights. A Turkey Shoot. So, when the first UNMARKED police cars, WITHOUT sirens or flashing lights came crashing through his gate, the suspect quickly retrieved a semi-automatic rifle and started shooting at the intruders, AFTER he had already been sniped by the police sniper. He claimed self-defense from a home invasion. It was a LEO set-up deal to kill him, because the same LEO's had tried to nail him previously and he wasn't convicted, and they were out to get him. Barker-Harrold went along on the pre-planned execution that went slightly awry. The SUSPECT unfortunately survived the police sniper bullet plus the subsequent deliberate torture inflicted on him by the sheriff's deputies of dragging him by his hair, wounded and bleeding out of his house. Since the driver of the UNMARKED, UNLIT car was shot by the homeowner, the SUSPECT of course was tried for murder. There was a hung jury. Then, he was Re-tried for Murder. Found guilty of negligent homicide, with the sentences structured by the crony county judge to run consecutively to make sure that he stayed in prison a long, long time for what was basically a shooting in self-defense against assailants unknown. Now, the Feds are trying him for the murder of a LEO. The Feds say, well, we know that the Constitution has that pesky little clause in it against Double Jeopardy, but you just need to understand that we are a different JURISDICTION, so it's not REALLY Double Jeopardy. And of course, the crony FEDERAL judge say OKAY; go right Ahead. And, it's A-OK to ask for the Death Penalty to appease the LEO community. Just one LITTLE problem with this entire matter: There were NEVER any drugs found.........OOPS! Sort of gets overlooked in the rush to Just-Us. Oh, and I'm sure the defendant's son will get used to growing up without his Daddy. Maybe Ms. Barker-Harrold can be his Mommy, now that she's been run out of the DA's office. Well, not really RUN; more like waddled. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Tulsa2005 on January 06, 2005, 02:10:57 pm Uranus, I'm glad to know if I choose to break into your house and rob you as long as I only point the gun you won't shoot. You are crazy!
There have been many instances where officers have been shot at and the suspect not killed. You don't want to deal with the police, don't break the law, that's pretty easy. Anytime someone points a gun at my husband, it a pretty easy choice for him, he's coming home and if the other guy is in a body bag, that stinks for him. It makes me sad to see people say such ignorant things and know you are the same people he puts that vest on every night to protect, and you don't even appreciate it. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 06, 2005, 02:35:47 pm quote: You're really jumping all over the place in making conclusions about what I think. What you're dealing with is a pretext shooting. The pretext is that a SUSPECT who has in their possession a gun actually tried to USE the gun. What you have is a policeman's WORD that the suspect "pointed" a gun. Not SHOT a gun. "Pointed" a gun. I think you must actually believe what the police report in their crime reports. It's frequently creative fiction. And, you actually don't have any idea as to what the true facts are. Only the police have CONTROL of the facts. And, they can easily manufacture the facts. Especially is a city like Tulsa which has no INDEPENDENT Citizen Review Board. And, gullible people swallow it. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Tulsa2005 on January 06, 2005, 02:55:58 pm I've read plenty of your posts, you make your opinion well known.
It is very rare that there are no witnesses to these shootings, there is almost more than one witness who tells the story. Of course, I can already imagine you are going to tell me that the police pressure these people to lie as well, but you are wrong. And to tell me I don't know what's going on, I don't pretend to have all the facts, but I have met many of these officers who have taken another's lives, and contrary to your view, many of these officers are very shaken and hurt by having to take another's life. It is not their goal each and every day to see how many people they can kill. It's their goal to protect and serve your arse and hopefully make it home to their family every night. How many officer's do you know? How many times have you participated in the Citizen's Ride Along program, have you attended the Citizen's Police Academy? I venture to say your answer is no, therefore, I pretty darn sure you don't have any facts to your opinions of the TPD on. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 06, 2005, 03:21:32 pm quote: Well, if you're MARRIED to a LEO, maybe, just maybe, you're slightly biased as well. I have no interest in attending a formal police propaganda channel like the Citizen's Police Academy or do a Ride-Along with the TPD. Their informal propaganda channels like the Tulsa World, and the local TV stations are hard enough to stomach. Actually, what the police are doing with their de-facto SHOOT ON SIGHT procedure is educating criminals that if they are carrying a gun, they might as well USE that gun. And, I don't mean POINT it. Once these class of suspects understand that the TPD is no longer taking prisoners if the police believe someone is armed, then they will start coming out BLAZING. Then, you may have some police injured or killed. You'll see. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on January 06, 2005, 10:08:42 pm Mr. Uranus...... Since day one you have had the uncanny knack of uncovering the corruption within Government,......
Wealthy People.......... Tulsa Police Dept.......... ETC. ETC.. ETC................. Oh I left one out, ETC................... In fact after reading all of your posts I have never been more sure that there are problems within Tulsa and the surrounding areas.......... I would like to offer you the opportunity to Really show us Okies what the heck we are supposed to be doing....... Lets PLAY KING FOR A DAY....... YOUR THE KING Mr. Uranus...... Where Do We Go From Here?????????????? You have dissected the entire City. Brought all of the Corruption to light ............. What is your plan that we should follow??????????? DO YOU HAVE ANY ANSWERS????????? OR ARE YOU JUST GOING TO CONTINUE TO COME UP WITH THE HIDDEN TRUTH................????????????????? I know this is probably going to make you SAY... "THAT IS NOT YOUR THING.........." "THIS FORUM IS ABOUT OPINIONS AND YOU WILL GLADLY SHARE YOURS..." Let me say this, if all you have are supposition and take it from me's, your just making a case for more money being needed for the mental health system in this State. Anyone can grumble and Moan and paint a really Dark Picture.........Filled with Mystery......... Believe it or not, most better than you .......... Time to" blank "or get off the pot.................. Show us just How Smart You Are... Tell Us What Needs to Be Done.......... In Your Humble Opinion of Course........ Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Pluto74114 on January 07, 2005, 08:21:24 am quote: I will tell you what I plan to do ..... MOVE!!! Portland never looked better. You tell me, what is the reason to live in this place since I cannot think of one. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Rico on January 07, 2005, 08:33:26 am quote: Then get the heck down the road........... By the way are Pluto and Uranus one in the same? Or could you just not find a place to place one of your annoying little sound bites that anyone at all would read it......................... Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on January 07, 2005, 09:24:31 am Portland's nice. According to this comparison, here's some things you'll want to check on while you are packing:
First, make sure you have a job, the unemployment rate is 6.38%, nearly twice as high as ours. Second, call your new boss and confirm that the job pays you 37.44% more than what you are making here, because that is the equivalent cost of living in Portland. Third, take a little extra cash for housing. It looks like the cost of a home is more than twice what it is here. The median price for a home is about $186,000. Fourth, you may want to pack an extra flak jacket, as violent crime and property crime are significantly higher there. Don't forget to take some books; the schools are worse, or as they say over there, worser. And, of course, don't forget the umbrella. About 1-in-3 days is sunny, compared to about 2-in-3 here. Best of luck! See for yourself! (http://"http://houseandhome.msn.com/pickaplace/comparecities.aspx?FromState=OK&FromCity=Tulsa&ToState=OR&ToCity=Portland&btnCompare=Compare&EarningFromCity=%2460%2C000&EarnToCity=%2482%2C468&Changed=1&prevFromCity=32&prevToCity=0&prevFromState=OK&prevToState=OR&EarningToCity=82467.5324675325&Ratio=1.37445887445887") Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on January 07, 2005, 09:26:43 am No, Pluto and Uranus are not the same person.
Pluto is our good friend DaveZ again, not very good at hiding it either. Uranus may be in great need of some professional care, but, he's not DaveZ Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 07, 2005, 09:35:41 am Silly and offensive post deleted by moderator.
For a Better TulsaNow Forum! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 07, 2005, 09:50:00 am quote: Okay. I'll accept the crown as King For A Day. Uranus Rex..... Nice ring to it. I'm happy to take that challenge, but only if you broaden the challenge to problems outside of just little old parochial Tulsa. Say, all of OKLAHOMA? Okay? There are easily ten challenges recited below to definitely improve things here in Oklahoma. Not ONE has yet been addressed, so they are still open for corrective action. IMHO, I happen to agree with most of what this local author recited in this editorial over at www.tulsatoday.com, so I just provided the entire link to those comments..... Here's the link: http://http://www.tulsatoday.com/getfeature.php?headline=Our+Fundamental+Failures Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: swake on January 07, 2005, 10:15:49 am Reply to silly and offensive post deleted by moderator.
For a Better TulsaNow Forum! Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on January 07, 2005, 10:32:45 am quote:Of course you agree, you wrote it Uranus>>Bobbie T>>Bob T>>Bob the Tulsan. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 07, 2005, 10:51:18 am quote: ALL of your forums are mine. [:D] Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on January 07, 2005, 11:02:43 am quote:I really don't think that that is cute. Rather, I think its disingenuous. Perhaps you should start your own board, and you can "me too" post yourself all day long, using as many aliases as you like. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 07, 2005, 11:09:15 am quote: Who KNOWS what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The SHADOW knows! Bwwwwahhhhhaaaaa! [|)] Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on January 07, 2005, 12:13:39 pm Still not funny.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 07, 2005, 12:27:35 pm quote: [}:)] ALL of your forums are mine. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Juan Mad Okie on January 07, 2005, 01:03:28 pm quote: He wrote it and he doesnt even agree with himself [}:)] Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 07, 2005, 01:10:44 pm quote: Sometimes its dangerous to leave the house, too. See what happened to one 85 year old St. Paul, Minnesota man when he tried to obey the Law. http://http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-beating-allegation,0,12058.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on January 07, 2005, 01:26:22 pm Owned.
Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 07, 2005, 02:13:33 pm quote: When Bob Tulsan wrote about 10 problems or challenges facing Oklahoma, he mentioned Tag Agents as being one of the 10 problems. Tag Agents are probably really more of a SYMPTOM of the problem. The problem is with our State Constitution that permits State Senators to appoint any of the Tag Agents for their DISTRICT. It's still in the Oklahoma Constitution. So, the Tag Agents are really more of a symptom of the problem. Otherwise, I generally agree with what he wrote, though he seemed to sugar-coat some of the problems. [:)] Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Chicken Little on January 07, 2005, 02:25:41 pm quote:Bobsuranus, your stock is dropping like a rock. Title: Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma Post by: Uranus74136 on January 07, 2005, 02:29:56 pm Yet another silly and offensive post deleted by moderator.
For a Better TulsaNow Forum! |