Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: guido911 on February 25, 2009, 06:51:40 pm It passed the house overwhelmingly and is now heading to the Senate. It will be interesting to see what effect it will have (if any) if it gets passed.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89842 Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: TheArtist on February 25, 2009, 10:22:30 pm Yaaaawn... scratch scratch Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: cannon_fodder on February 26, 2009, 08:32:31 am Well, I think it is at least interesting. Clearly the scope of the Federal Government is way, WAY beyond what anyone alive in the revolutionary period would have ever imagined. In fact, it could be argued that our Federal Government exerts more authority on your day to day life than the King every did.
The notion of "limited government" is totally dead. As part of a bill they have to show that they have constitutional authority to act. 1 law in 80 years has been struck down on those grounds. And I don't think it is because only 1 bill stretched the authority of government. Not to say it is all for the worse. The FDA is valuable. The Corps of Engineers does use full projects. Same with the Dept. of the Interior, BLS, Parks Service, Dept. of Ag, EPA, FCC, FAA and any of the ~280 executive agencies that have no real authority... many do good. But that doesn't mean they are not outside the scope of a limited government. If they are, they only have power of the states to the extent a state submits to their authority. Oh the horrors of a Federal Union of States. Historically: education, health, transportation, State Guards, and legal codes were the domain of the states. The military got away from the State model and entirely went to a national army by WWI (token National Guard for the states), education was swept up in the New Deal and is now dependent on Federal money (read: they can tell them what to do), health care is Federal unless you forgo the federal funding (states can make some decisions, but at the end of the day $$$ from the Fed = Fed program), the DOT has enough influence over road funding to dictate all transportation laws and many ancillary laws in the nation (universal 21, for instance) not to mention having states beg for highway money, and as I mentioned the Federal Government allocates so much money that they can "persuade" a state to change nearly any law they want. So what is the domain of the State anymore? At least something that should be discussed to keep states relevant on some level. Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: we vs us on February 26, 2009, 09:22:28 am Didn't the Civil War put to rest the stronger state idea? That, at least in interpretation, the constitutional idea of federal government would trump individual states' rights?
And a broader question to you libertarians out there: wouldn't a global superpower need a strong central government to retain its strength and dominance? And don't we need a strong federal government to adjudicate between states? I'm thinking of the wildly different interpretations of border security and how to deal with illegal immigration as an example of the confusion a strong state model would foster. Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: we vs us on February 26, 2009, 09:38:12 am quote: Er, post-constitutional? Really? It was built to be changed and reinvented. There's a whole coequal branch of government that exists to interpret it. And if we find it offends us, we can change it. I just can't see us trying to rebuild our founding documents from the ground up. Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: cannon_fodder on February 26, 2009, 09:41:48 am Wevus,
The Federal Government was given charge of international treaties and border security since inception. That is an enumerated Federal power. Same with the military, they were granted the right for an army and a navy int he document itself. Thus, the aspects you are discussing are proper Federal powers. If you want the Federal Government to be an unlimited government that can occupy any domain that it pleases, then lets change the constitution to say that. If we are going to continue to have a limited government, then lets limit it. I am NOT trying to rebuild the founding document nor am I trying to have some kind of draconian literal reading (which is impossible). I'm simply saying we operate with an unlimited Federal Government that trumps both state and individual rights at will - and that is dangerous. Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: Neptune on February 26, 2009, 09:54:01 am quote: Somebody should have warned TheArtist. It could have been worse though. He's lucky he only got fleas from this thread. Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: nathanm on February 26, 2009, 11:55:12 am quote: Sure..in the revolutionary period we got ourselves the Articles of Confederation. We saw how well that worked out. Well enough to end up with a new Constitution that gave the federal government the power of taxation, among other things. Then after the Civil War, we amended the Constitution to put the states under the authority of the federal Constitution. Like it or not, our Constitution's effect has been changed dramatically through the amendment process since it was originally ratified. That doesn't mean I agree at all with the principle of the Feds forcing the states to bend to their will through the power of the purse, but the Federal government does have essentially unlimited taxing authority and makes large sums of money available to the states, sometimes with strings attached. In reality those strings usually amount to loss of a small amount of highway or whatever other funds, rather than the whole shebang, hence there still being states that don't comply with Federal wishes on open container laws and such. Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: cannon_fodder on February 26, 2009, 01:24:25 pm quote: Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: PonderInc on February 26, 2009, 02:38:58 pm More embarrassing news from Oklahoma.
Sigh. How many of our state legislators have even read the US Constitution? When was the last time you did? Cover to cover. Sigh. Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: Townsend on February 26, 2009, 02:59:57 pm Is this another way we're telling them to take their federal highway funds and stick it?
Title: Oklahoma's Sovereignty Resolution Post by: nathanm on February 26, 2009, 03:06:29 pm quote: |