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Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: jmhuntin on January 03, 2009, 12:47:34 am The Tulsa World shut down commentary on their website report on the Gaza violence protest at 71st and Memorial, so let's start posting commentary here.
Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: MDepr2007 on January 03, 2009, 12:53:00 am Why ? Was there a fight for the corner with the "I hate Bush" people
Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: jmhuntin on January 03, 2009, 12:59:49 am I started this, so I'll throw in my two cents. It's amazing the mentality of local Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims who would support the actions of Hamas. Hamas started firing rockets into southern Israel, and they don't expect a response? Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and obviously doesn't care for the well-being of its own people, or its militants would not have fired rockets without provocation. If the Tulsans in this protest who support the actions of Hamas want the violence to stop, then they should push their brethren overseas to recognize Israel's right to exist and sign a peace treaty.
Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: RecycleMichael on January 03, 2009, 06:04:04 am Hummus
INGREDIENTS 2 cups canned garbanzo beans, drained 1/3 cup tahini 1/4 cup lemon juice 1 teaspoon salt 2 cloves garlic, halved 1 tablespoon olive oil 1 pinch paprika 1 teaspoon minced fresh parsley DIRECTIONS Place the garbanzo beans, tahini, lemon juice, salt and garlic in a blender or food processor. Blend until smooth. Transfer mixture to a serving bowl. Drizzle olive oil over the garbanzo bean mixture. Sprinkle with paprika and parsley. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: lydiem on January 03, 2009, 09:48:07 am It's amazing the mentality of local Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims who would support the actions of Hamas.
==> It's amazing the mentality of some others who are only capable of seeing terrorism in others' actions!!! Hamas started firing rockets into southern Israel, and they don't expect a response? ==> It's a rather shortsighted view of history !!! Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and obviously doesn't care for the well-being of its own people, or its militants would not have fired rockets without provocation. ==> German nazis used to rely on similar methods of retaliation: One German killed, 50 civilians executed! Here in this case, the ratio doubles: 4 Israeli killed, more than 400 Palestinians massacred ! Frankly, I wonder who should be labeled "terrorists" !!!! If the Tulsans in this protest who support the actions of Hamas want the violence to stop, then they should push their brethren overseas to recognize Israel's right to exist and sign a peace treaty. ==> Of course, Israel should exist! But why should this be at the expense of the Palestinians' quality of life? Why park Gaza within a wall like a huge prison, declare embargo, separate its inhabitants from the rest of the world, and condemn a whole population to starve away from the international gaze? Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Gaspar on January 03, 2009, 10:05:40 am quote: I recommend a spicy Hungarian paprika for the sprinkle. It adds just the right amount of bite. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: tim huntzinger on January 03, 2009, 10:10:20 am A co-worker and I play the game 'Hamas and Israel.' I keep peppering him with rubber bands, paper wads, and after a while he gets angry and hits me in the head with a brick! Ha ha!
NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS. Much less Hamas. Hamas is aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood, who seek Islamic states in Egypt, Jordan, anywhere there is a secular state. There is going to be a great big wall around Gaza before too long. Truth be told, if'n I were a Palestinian I would support Hamas. If I did not, I would be dead. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: lydiem on January 03, 2009, 11:34:48 am People whose voice is silenced will, indeed, attempt any mean to express the voice that the international community does not want to hear. And that voice, will most likely be expressed in anger.
Obviously millions of people demonstrating around the world care about the human rights of palestinians to be heard and for them to exist without facing constant threats of mass-destruction. Human rights are not limited to heavily armed nations. Furthermore, current raids and mass-killings laounced by Israelis against Palestinians have breached the fourth Geneva Convention calling for the protection of civilians in war. Most of the casualties are civilians. I, too, used to be an unconditional supporter of Israel's existence, until the Sabra and Shatilla massacre took place in 1982, followed by more crimes against humanity perpetrated since then by Israel until today. The 1982 massacre sadly opened my eyes about how the victims of nazi Germany had turned into nazis themselves, very much like an abused child turns into an abusive parent, thus perpetuating the cycles of violence, keeping in mind that violence breeds more violence. Now, this does not mean that I do not understand today's Israeli reactions . I do! I actually understand the sufferings of both sides. But, this is not by means of repeated violent reactions that solutions can be found. The more violence, the more reactions in despair and anger, and the more suicide bombers you'll get with people who do not have anything to lose but their life, finding in death a meaning that life fails to provide. Basic psychology! Does take a PhD to understand this simple logic! Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: swake on January 03, 2009, 11:41:50 am Hamas is no longer a terrorist organization. They are a functional and in fact freely elected government of the independent state entity that known is as Gaza. They have territory, security forces and a citizenry that they are responsible for the safety and well-being of.
In continually firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into a neighboring state they are not committing acts of terrorism, they are committing acts of war. quote: Hamas has as it's stated goal the complete destruction of Israel. Israel pulled out of Gaza ceding control to the Palestinians but the terrorist attacks never stopped. Hamas then won some elections and violently drove out the rival Fatah movement taking complete control of Gaza. At that point Gaza became a state under the control of Hamas but and they never stopped attacking Israel which led to the Israeli blockade of Gaza and now bombing. It's not that complicated. Israel's response may not be proportional, but it is certainly justified. If the criminal drug gangs won elections in Mexico and started lobbing crude rockets into El Paso and Brownsville what kind of response do you think the United States would have? Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: guido911 on January 03, 2009, 12:06:55 pm Very informative video about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfiev_lk5_A&ytsession=fvStBn8nZlWOljmMZ5gIaY4D7VwJPFvu6AyDVsyV8U2QX9fwIuvGNXI3Cw0hXuEAj0yByA3IpCgju2adAm7gQXR7CKkv5O9l9GA3LI62qUmRNzl6hnQD6aNdgqpFirGS635iYnIW1-Br21dp-E0wVlJSuhVcyXMey2I1WFPfuryV_dPoQ2rJAunD7ajGKcaD7QcT7j_b7WqnjCDt-fB-VJkmQIE2wCR1hi3NtEUjTA8z3kT3Yq7mF4dnLhz725NuEYBec6LeWhy-CV0KSW-1Pi8wa1Tg0YAzYXFUmW0feuycPz6b2xHO56g6-v_xLujK2TpLFTQBn6i1HqOm4Ejp-XJBun3sJIqn Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: guido911 on January 03, 2009, 12:54:40 pm The ground invasion is apparently underway. Israel, wipe Hamas out!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/ Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: MichaelBates on January 03, 2009, 01:20:37 pm quote: Well said, swake. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Ed W on January 03, 2009, 01:45:25 pm So a people who've have their property taken from them by an army that's invaded and occupied their land, people who've been forced onto a small patch of ground and then denied basic necessities or the means of acquiring them through their labor, people who've watched as a wall went up between them and their former homes, those people are to blame when violence inevitably erupts?
I'm not talking about the Palestinians. I'm talking about the Warsaw Ghetto in 1940. If it was morally reprehensible when the German army did that to Poland's Jews, how is it less reprehensible when today's Israelis do it to the Palestinians? Is morality so dependent on our world view? Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: tim huntzinger on January 03, 2009, 01:58:37 pm quote: Not much difference between the UN endorsing the formation of the Israeli State and genocidal warmongers on a mission of extermination? Like comparing a tricycle with a Cannondale idn't it? Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: guido911 on January 03, 2009, 02:38:14 pm quote: Wow, what unbelievable crap that was. Take a history course for gawd's sake. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: TulsaFan-inTexas on January 03, 2009, 03:56:47 pm I have an honest and sincere question. Who, was the wise guy that decided to plop a Jewish state smack dab into the middle of a bunch of people that have hated their guts since Biblical times?
Seriously, why couldn't they have petitioned the US or another country to donate some land; it would seem to have solved a ton of problems. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Ed W on January 03, 2009, 04:41:21 pm It's another shameful epoch in our history. None of the Great Powers wanted them, so as Tim pointed out, armed men wearing blue helmets put them in Palestine. This was years after armed men with coal scuttle helmets put them in the Warsaw ghetto. And now we have armed Israelis (dunno about their helmets) putting Palestinians behind a wall in the Gaza strip. Maybe having more guns than the other guy provides the justification for their actions.
Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: TulsaFan-inTexas on January 03, 2009, 04:45:25 pm quote: I'll second that comment. Well said Swake. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Wrinkle on January 03, 2009, 05:02:47 pm One of these days, a Palestinian will arise who is smart enough to understand the situation and find a way to communicate to his/her people how they have been used by Arabs for decades, who have managed to make them believe all their ills come from Israel.
Had Arabs taken care of their own, Palestinians would not be dependent upon Israel for their well being, or need to cry and moan when they don't provide for them. The contrast couldn't be more apparent. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: tim huntzinger on January 03, 2009, 09:50:51 pm quote: See? If Michael can compliment Swake, the Gazans and Israelis should be able to get along just fine! Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Red Arrow on January 04, 2009, 04:58:29 pm Other cultures are becoming very adept at manipulating Western Civilization.
Start a war, declaring you will wipe your enemy off the face of the earth forever. Lose the war in less than a week and then complain the enemy stole your lands. Hide munitions in places where civilians go because it is against western treaties to hurt civilians. Also applies to places of worship. If the places are bombed and destroyed, be sure to point out only the civilian losses. Declare a truce, to rebuild your weapons supplies. Complain about the blockade making those supplies more difficult to obtain. Lob a few rockets across the border then complain about the agressive neighbors when they respond. Who was there first? Hand pick a date and any of the locals can claim to have been there first. Islam didn't exist during what are usually called Biblical times so Muslims as a religious group are relatively newcomers. Their ancestors have, of course been there since Biblical times. WWII was a few years before my time so I have to depend on history. I believe the Arabs were generally on the side of the Axis powers. They lost. Relative to Germany and Japan, I think the Middle East got off light for being on the losing side of a major war. The winners usually carve up the real estate. Sometimes this leads to new wars in a generation or so. I expect most Palestinians and Israelies want the fighting to stop. A few militants imposing their will on the masses have made that impossible to achieve, so far. Disclaimer: I get my news from the mainstream US Media. I rarely listen to Fox News or the talking heads on radio. I got my history lessons from Public schools. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: waterboy on January 04, 2009, 08:34:13 pm FWIW, I don't think the "Arabs" were Axis members. They had no well organized armies, and their oil resources were not well developed either. They had been dominated by British colonialists. Germans wiped out their primitive cavalry troops with air attacks and pretty much did what they wanted in the area. The Axis powers only perceived value in the MidEast for shipping routes and defensive perimeters. And a pathway to African mineral resources.
Whatever has happened over there in the last century, war has not been the answer to their issues. It won't be this time either. The table was set after WWII when the area was carved up with little regard to religious and cultural differences. The Christian countries who stood by while the holocaust was unfolding in the late thirties, then ignored concentration camp rumors during the war had no interest in solving centuries old conflicts between Jews and Arabs. They simply didn't think it out. Russia and Communism was a bigger concern. This knee jerk support of Americans of a pretty militaristic society is wrong. We should be skeptical and press for peace. The rest of the world sees this war as typical Israeli overkill and seems able to recognize that the subjugation of Gaza would inevitably lead to demagogues who would lead moderate Palestinians into tragedy. Hamas has done just that. They fed their people, they fixed their utilities and they got elected. Now their ignorant racism is in power and the innocent will suffer. Palestininans were screwed either way. The Israelis chose a rather convenient time to respond to those erratic missile lobs don't you think? Be cynical and be skeptical. The Israelis certaily are. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: akupetsky on January 04, 2009, 11:02:21 pm quote: The blue helmets had nothing to do with it, although it was the UN Security Council that formalized the British-initiated process of legitimizing the movement of Jewish people to Palestine and their struggles with the population that was there at the time. Who owns that land can't be determined by pure power because that leads to an unstable situation in which one side oppresses the other, leading to insurgency and worldwide condemnation. It can't be determined by history and religion, because there are always going to be two or more "correct" views on this. The only legitimate way to resolve the issue is via the UN Security Council resolutions establishing land for Israel and land for Palestine, and any negotiated agreement to modify those prescriptions. The solution is out there and has already been enunciated by Israel's Prime Minister (including a land connection between Gaza and the West Bank). Unfortunately, neither he nor Palestinian President Abbas have the votes to implement it, mostly because Hamas and other groups keep firing missiles at Israel, casting doubt on the ability and willingness of a state of Palestine to ensure Israel's security. I don't think Israel is interested anymore in playing policeman in occupied territories - they correctly realize that they cannot count on the support of the United States or others if they continue doing this. But they can't agree on a negotiated solution that would keep them at the mercy of a hostile state (or quasi-state) with missiles capable of destroying Israel. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Red Arrow on January 04, 2009, 11:10:09 pm They may not have been Axis members but they preferred the Axis over the Allies. I can understand why they didn't care for the British. Agreed, oil was not much of an issue until after WWII.
The Israelies have a clouded past but that doesn't make the present Arab/Palestinian attitude any more acceptable. Why is it that the rest of the Arab world doesn't want the Palestinians either. What about the brotherhood of religion? I believe that if the Palestinians stop shooting rockets that the Israelies will agree to some kind of end to hostilities. The Palestinians have proven many times that they want to keep shooting rockets and sending suicide bombers. Even Christians will only take so many slaps on the face before getting angry. If you slap my face, I respond by only slapping your face, and you keep slapping my face, maybe a hit with a 2x4 upside your head will get your attention. It reminds me a bit of an original Star Trek episode where two neighboring worlds had refined war to an acceptable level. When the sirens went off, the designated people went to the disingration chamber. It was an accepted way of life. Then Capt. Kirk made them face the real horrors of real war and they came to an agreement. Perhaps the Palestinians and Israelies need to step it up a notch to see the stupidity of both their ways. Three major religions have claims to the area. It would be impossible to carve up the area to please everyone. I don't so much believe that the Israelies chose the time as it happened. Perhaps the length of the cease fire was set up by Hamas to coincide with US change of power to make the Israelies look opportunistic. Do not underrate either side. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: cannon_fodder on January 05, 2009, 08:49:20 am Ignoring the longer history (since both sides took the land through violence in history)... isn't the short history of the current weeks fighting something like this:
1. Israel calls off ground offensive into Gaza in exchange for guarantee of no more rocket fire. 2. Hamas sporadically fires rockets targeting civilians in Israel (bears repeating that the rockets are not accurate to designate a target, just an area). 3. Israel delivers an ultimatum to stop 4. Hamas fires a barrage of rockets 5. Israel sends air strikes against the mobile launchers 6. Hamas fires large barrages of rockets targeting civilians in Israel 7. Israel bombs Hamas headquarters, check points, weapons depots, and mobile launches causing significant collateral damage. 8. Hamas fires larger barrages of rockets targeting civilians in Israel. 9. Israel invades Hamas held territory on the ground. - - - - I try desperately to understand the picture in the larger context, but in this instance what would you have done as Israel? What benefit did Hamas hope to gain from launching rockets into Israel other-than killing civilians, gaining praise from terrorist groups, and provoking a response? Frankly, if Hamas targeted Israeli soldiers, check points, and military installations instead of schools, pizza parlors, and buses they would be worthy of more consideration. Israel is reactionary. The generation that currently lives there of BOTH groups has as much a right as the other to be there. Whenever one of the groups attacks another of the groups they should expect a response. From my perspective, and correct my ignorance if I am wrong, the last decade has been Israel making a concession or calling off an attack in exchange for peace... followed about a year later by car bombings, rocket attacks, or suicide bombs on buses, markets, or temples. Then Israel over reactions... Crappy deal for all the 'normal' people involved. I spoke to a "reserve" (I guess all former officers are reserve for a very long time) Israeli major yesterday who is going to school at TU and is worried that he will get called back. I'm sure there are plenty of Israeli's in fear of rocket attacks, Palestinians scared of occupation and areal bombardment, and other poor bastards stuck in the middle. If both stupid sides would realize MOST the other side wants the exact same thing the "penis waiving" (mine's bigger/tougher than yous is!) could stop and people could go back to school/work and getting on with their lives. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Hometown on January 05, 2009, 04:28:09 pm Britain and Europe have also strongly protested Israel’s actions. If you keep your eye on this issue over time you will notice that the U.S. is frequently Israel’s sole supporter. I know the U.S. is very close to Israel, and that many U.S. Citizens are strong supporters of Israel, but that support is long overdue for a cost benefit analysis.
All Israeli’s are not cut from the same cloth. Did you know many Israeli soldiers refuse to serve in the West Bank and Gaza? Israeli hawks have been in charge for some time, much to everyone’s detriment. We lost a great peacemaker with the assassination of Rabin. It’s time for the peacemakers to take charge in Israel again. Bush has given Israel a green light and a blank check and they are taking advantage of this policy in his final days. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: cannon_fodder on January 05, 2009, 04:38:30 pm FYI, selective failure to serve is illegal in Israel. You can get out of the mandatory conscription in several ways, usually pacifism on religious grounds, but they require alternative service. If you join the army, you can not select NOT to serve in Gaza, the West Bank, or in any other capacity. Failure to do so is illegal and will be met with imprisonment and dishonorable discharge (a BIG deal in a country with mandatory conscription where 90% of the population serves and is honorably discharged).
In other words, the numbers are very small and "many" would be an exaggeration. But yes, I am aware it happens. I am also aware that the US often stands by Israel when others will not. Both to our credit and shame. And I agree that Israel is taking care of this "problem" while they can with a blank check. However, the "hawks" are not in charge in Israel. The current administration has continued to merge Jerusalem, dismantle settlements, withdraw troops from Gaza, and otherwise attempt to normalize relations with all parties but those still shooting rockets at them. Definitely not peace-niks, but the current administration is not well liked by the Israeli Religious Right or the "hawks" who would occupy most of the territory won in the 1968 war, reestablish and expand the settlements, and expel non-Jews from the core of Israel. I admit I identify more closely with the Israeli's for some reason, but neither side has mundi manus in this situation. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Hometown on January 05, 2009, 04:59:37 pm Our financial and political support of Israel is at the core of the Arab World's hatred of the U.S. Believe it or not, some people in the U.S. haven't paid much attention to the issue and don't know this fact.
Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: cannon_fodder on January 05, 2009, 11:36:33 pm Believe it or not, if we cut off support of Israel, pulled all our troops Iraq, Afghanistan, and all the Middle East... they would still shout DEATH TO AMERICA and hate us just as much. They need to have some great enemy to bolster their illusion of power. Gotta hate someone, and as the strongest nation the USA is the target.
Meanwhile: quote: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5454204.ece Such comments make it really hard for me to have any support for Hamas. quote: Really, if God decides wars it is VERY clear he favors the God of Israel over the God of Islam (same God, I realize the irony). Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Townsend on January 06, 2009, 08:44:04 am quote: You think He makes that decision the same way we would have to decide which child to place the oxygen mask on first during an airplane emergency? Choose your favorite before takeoff. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: TheArtist on January 06, 2009, 10:07:16 am quote: I think you could go back one or two steps further. During the last cease fire, Israel kept building on, and announcing more settlements on, land that is supposedly part of what would be the Palestenian State. Not to mention the hassle and humiliation the average Palestenian often gets just trying to go anywhere outside the territories, etc. When Hamas said they wanted to destroy Israel... From that point on they have "no ground" to stand on. That was wrong and stupid. Back to the settlements. We focus on rockets, but let me tell ya from personal experience. Verbal abuse, mental abuse is just as bad, if not worse, than any physical abuse. When someone is stronger than you, and constantly abuses you psychologically. It can be a hell few of you can ever really imagine. I could probably kill most of you with nothing more than words. I have learned from the best. And when it starts when your a child, its all the more destructive for you never had the ability to gather any strength of your own, it was sapped from you from your earliest memories. Now I am NOT saying that either is right or wrong in this situation. I am not going to get into that, who started it first or whatever. What I am trying to point out is that I am not seeing in this converstation or any other any real weight given to the fact that harm can be done to people, not just physically but mentally. So far most keep yacking about rockets as if thats the start and thats the measure of the situation. Its not the only measure. When your the more powerful, you can destroy the other without resorting to physical violence that "makes the news". You can destroy them in ways where no one else will really care. But to you, the pain is terrible. quote... (I inserted bracket) " Whenever one of the groups attacks another of the groups they should expect a response. From my perspective, and correct my ignorance if I am wrong, the last decade has been Israel making a concession or calling off an attack in exchange for peace...(while continually building more settlements and taking more and more land the Palestenians, and the Oslo accords, see as theirs, taking and bulldozing Palestenian homes and property in other places, etc.) followed about a year later by car bombings, rocket attacks, or suicide bombs on buses, markets, or temples. " Its like Israel is hurting them little by little, death by a thousand cuts. But none of that makes the big news, the rockets do. There are extremists on both sides. Some in Israel believe that ALL of Isriel should be theirs and the Palestenians gone. And we know what Hamas thinks. But there are also moderates on both sides. And from the Palestenian perspective, every time a cease fire goes into effect and there is a lull in fighting, they try negotiating and peace... Israel "cuts" them again. More settlements go in, and no doubt they do lots of other "little" things to hurt them. Nothing that makes the news and gets the rest of the world riled up, but thats what Israel can do. They are the more powerful party and can just keeeep cutting away and smiling. And thats exactly what they have done every time. It seems Israels bargain is that they can keep playing this and squeeze the Palestenians out. Israel can, over all, keep winning slowly and surely. While the Palestenians, no matter what they do, will keep losing. We dont stand up to Israel during the cease fires and say no to more settlements on what is supposedly Palestenian land, and taking of Palestenian property and all the other constant hassles. The "verbal" abuses are ok, its the "physical" we get upset about. And my contention is that they should be equally abhorred. They can both destroy. Give me one day with any of you and let me verbally abuse you. I guarantee you, that by the end you would pray to whatever god you have that I had beat the living sh@t out of you instead. Not trying to say one or the other side started this or that. Just want to put in something that should have some weight, but that rarely seems to be discussed on here or in the news. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Hometown on January 06, 2009, 12:02:55 pm Cannon said, "Believe it or not, if we cut off support of Israel, pulled all our troops Iraq, Afghanistan, and all the Middle East... they would still shout DEATH TO AMERICA and hate us just as much. They need to have some great enemy to bolster their illusion of power. Gotta hate someone, and as the strongest nation the USA is the target."
That's an interesting statement. Like hating is a basic human condition. That brings up the question of "who do we hate?" It's hard to get enough distance to see ourselves. I remember leaving Guadalajara and getting on a plane full of Canadians. The contrast couldn't have been more dramatic. From warmth to cold. That plane was full of tension and everyone had a chip on their shoulders. You could feel the difference. Everyone was angry. The Canadians that is. Anyway, who do we hate? Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: cannon_fodder on January 06, 2009, 12:04:52 pm I agree Artist, you bring up some good points.
Read Hebron Jorunal by Art Gish sometime, it illustrates the daily pain in the donkey that is life for a Palestinian. Israel does not have clean hands in this ordeal and certainly harasses Hamas as much as possible AND their policies make life difficult for many unrelated parties. I am not saying I'm right, just that I am better able to relate to Israel. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: nathanm on January 06, 2009, 12:13:37 pm I think it's very clear that both factions have poo-poo heads of the highest caliber running the show messing it up for the rest of the folks who just want to go about their business.
As far as hate being the natural state of things, hate is what people who want to exert power over a group of other people use to achieve their ends. That said, most of the world doesn't have a huge problem with us except when we go all stupid and start doing and saying dumb things. Even most of the Muslim world. There are the fanatics who will hate us no matter what we do. We need to be concerned with what we can do to improve our image amongst the larger number of people who would rather see their lives better. Our chest-thumping and warmongering is not conducive to that end. It makes the normally reasonable people say 'pancakes America??!' We need them to be saying 'pancakes terrorist??!'. (I dislike the label terrorist..it obscures the reasoning a person has for blowing themselves up or shooting rockets at Israel or whatever and makes it harder to have rational discourse, since terrorists are 'evil' people who are only there to be killed) Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Hometown on January 06, 2009, 01:10:39 pm Well I've always thought of this conflict as a family feud. You know: Semitic v. Semitic.
But perhaps it is more accurate to look at it as a religious family feud, with Muslim, Jewish and Christian faiths being three variations on the same religion. The second suggests that our role is much deeper than I would wish. I was raised in a culture that is detached from tradition and personally I don't like religious government or traditional culture, though I am drawn to Catholics. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: TheArtist on January 06, 2009, 01:35:09 pm One thing thats been getting me griping at the radio and TV pundits lol, is the "Disproportionate force" thing. To me proportionate force would mean using just the right amount of force to get the job done. No more, no less. If the amount of force you were using wasnt getting the job done "aka the missiles are still flying" it would either mean you arent using enough force and thus need to use more, hence it couldnt possibly be disproportionate,,, or its the wrong approach. But the pundits arent discussing the type of approach in this instance, they are talking about "amount". It cant be disproportionate if its not enough to get the result your after. Whether its the right type of thing to be doing, thats a different matter. Type and amount are different things.
Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: Gaspar on January 07, 2009, 03:26:57 pm quote: Only by disproportionate force can you win a war. Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: jne on January 07, 2009, 04:24:41 pm quote: You mean like we did in Iraq? Title: Tulsa Gaza Violence Protest Post by: guido911 on January 07, 2009, 06:19:53 pm Idiots on parade:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX-LRlSmevo&eurl=http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x256484 |