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Talk About Tulsa => Other Tulsa Discussion => Topic started by: sgrizzle on November 13, 2008, 03:31:27 pm



Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: sgrizzle on November 13, 2008, 03:31:27 pm
http://newsok.com/bad-idea-state-shouldnt-buy-tulsa-hospital/article/3321548


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 13, 2008, 04:00:18 pm
Without reading the article, I will assume to... ahh damn it, I'll read the article.  Brb.  

. . .

Ok, it's what I expected.  No solutions offered at all.  Basically an argument against giving any state money to Tulsa.

quote:
Doing so would also threaten the health of medical programs at the University of Oklahoma in Tulsa and Oklahoma City.


University of Oklahoma Tulsa medical programs are minimal, at best.  I think the one in Oklahoma is pretty significant.  Oh yeah... they employ nearly 5,000 people and run two hospitals.  That's right.

Public ownership of a hospital is not the preferred option. Unfortunately, it is a bit of a necessity.  Is the Jokelahoman in favor of selling off the OU MEdical Center or the OU Children's hospital?  What about the other public hospital in OKC?  Are they fighting the continued funding of those institutions?

quote:
While it seems clear the state is going to have to chip in to help the medical school survive and be a party to discussions about adequate indigent health care in the Tulsa area


Pay for three hospitals in Oklahoma City, chip in and/or talk about what to do in Tulsa.  Yep, that sounds about right.  

quote:
[We don't know what a solution would be, but health care in Tulsa is not important enough to take tax money away from Oklahoma City.]


Duly noted.  Enjoy your state money for the NBA team.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: Hoss on November 13, 2008, 04:04:48 pm
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Without reading the article, I will assume to... ahh damn it, I'll read the article.  Brb.  

. . .

Ok, it's what I expected.  No solutions offered at all.  Basically an argument against giving any state money to Tulsa.

quote:
Doing so would also threaten the health of medical programs at the University of Oklahoma in Tulsa and Oklahoma City.


University of Oklahoma Tulsa medical programs are minimal, at best.  I think the one in Oklahoma is pretty significant.  Oh yeah... they employ nearly 5,000 people and run two hospitals.  That's right.

Public ownership of a hospital is not the preferred option. Unfortunately, it is a bit of a necessity.  Is the Jokelahoman in favor of selling off the OU MEdical Center or the OU Children's hospital?  What about the other public hospital in OKC?  Are they fighting the continued funding of those institutions?

quote:
While it seems clear the state is going to have to chip in to help the medical school survive and be a party to discussions about adequate indigent health care in the Tulsa area


Pay for three hospitals in Oklahoma City, chip in and/or talk about what to do in Tulsa.  Yep, that sounds about right.  

quote:
[We don't know what a solution would be, but health care in Tulsa is not important enough to take tax money away from Oklahoma City.]


Duly noted.  Enjoy your state money for the NBA team.



Visit from OKCPulse in 3...2...1

[:O]


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: okcpulse on November 16, 2008, 10:15:39 pm
This is where I draw the line.  Health care is jsut as important in Tulsa as it is in OKC.  How can the state be successful in lopsided healthcare funding?

I say no to closing OSU-Tulsa.  Why are they in trouble?  The stories I am getting here in Hellston (Houston) are convoluted.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: sgrizzle on November 17, 2008, 07:02:20 am
quote:
Originally posted by okcpulse

This is where I draw the line.  Health care is jsut as important in Tulsa as it is in OKC.  How can the state be successful in lopsided healthcare funding?

I say no to closing OSU-Tulsa.  Why are they in trouble?  The stories I am getting here in Hellston (Houston) are convoluted.




They are in trouble because they have been the dumping ground for the uninsured and indigent for years and medicare/medicaid doesn't cover everyone. The rest of those costs have been absorbed by the owner causing it to run as a net loss for decades. It's estimated they need something like $50M to cover the costs of uninsured hospital care in NE Oklahoma annually. That is $50M that the owners have been trying to work around for years.


Another caveat. I've read in the paper that OSU students don't want to go to St Francis. Especially since it's an Osteopathic College and OSUMC is the largest Osteopathic hospital in the nation and only one in this area. Also, St Francis can't accomodate all of the students and some may have to go out of state mid-residency to finish their programs.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 17, 2008, 11:56:20 am
The MD's I know at St. Francis look down on DO's.  Not sure if it is just a quasi condescending attitude with half joking, or if they really think they are lesser.  In either event, it could cause problems.

At least St. Francis agreed to the deal.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: sgrizzle on November 17, 2008, 02:54:10 pm
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The MD's I know at St. Francis look down on DO's.  Not sure if it is just a quasi condescending attitude with half joking, or if they really think they are lesser.  In either event, it could cause problems.

At least St. Francis agreed to the deal.



I never get that since DO's go through all the training MD's do, plus they take additional coursework.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 17, 2008, 03:47:06 pm
The perception is that DO's do not have the same comprehensive level of coursework that MDs have.  An MD has detailed knowledge about all facets of medicine while a DO only has knowledge in the particular area which they study, which is often general practice.  Hence, no area of expertise.

Not vouching for it, just what the perception is.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: jne on November 17, 2008, 03:56:53 pm
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The perception is that DO's do not have the same comprehensive level of coursework that MDs have.  An MD has detailed knowledge about all facets of medicine while a DO only has knowledge in the particular area which they study, which is often general practice.  Hence, no area of expertise.

Not vouching for it, just what the perception is.



Its a long standing feud.  Fact of the matter is that we have a first class DO school and they serve Oklahoma.
Ask the OU residency director in Enid wear his chief resident invariably comes from.  You guessed it OSU-CHS - a D.O.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: brunoflipper on November 17, 2008, 05:27:29 pm
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The MD's I know at St. Francis look down on DO's.  Not sure if it is just a quasi condescending attitude with half joking, or if they really think they are lesser.  In either event, it could cause problems.

At least St. Francis agreed to the deal.



I never get that since DO's go through all the training MD's do, plus they take additional coursework.


said it before, md's vs. do's... where they went to med school makes no difference... whether they went to an accredited residency is what matters... if they are credentialed by the actual board of their peers... if they are listed here www.abms.org, they are the real deal... if not, they might well be a crackpot...
and that's a fact jack, everythingelse is bull****, hype or prejudice...


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: guido911 on November 17, 2008, 06:27:32 pm
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The perception is that DO's do not have the same comprehensive level of coursework that MDs have.  An MD has detailed knowledge about all facets of medicine while a DO only has knowledge in the particular area which they study, which is often general practice.  Hence, no area of expertise.

Not vouching for it, just what the perception is.



Unless you are a physician, perceptions of who is better skilled, DO or MD, is absolutely meaningless and relying on that perception is a waste of time. Speaking as someone intimately familiar with DO training, I CAN vouch that the debate is mindless and stupid. As for an MD's perception, sounds more like they feel a threat to their job security than anything else.  

The way I see it, when you go to the emergency room and while on your back either in pieces from a car accident or grasping your chest because of a heart attack, the first thing you should not think about is gee, I sure hope my doctor went to an allopathic medical school.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: citizen72 on November 17, 2008, 06:49:29 pm
That kind of attitude has been there forever. I will not go away soon.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: brunoflipper on November 17, 2008, 07:25:01 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The perception is that DO's do not have the same comprehensive level of coursework that MDs have.  An MD has detailed knowledge about all facets of medicine while a DO only has knowledge in the particular area which they study, which is often general practice.  Hence, no area of expertise.

Not vouching for it, just what the perception is.



Unless you are a physician, perceptions of who is better skilled, DO or MD, is absolutely meaningless and relying on that perception is a waste of time. Speaking as someone intimately familiar with DO training, I CAN vouch that the debate is mindless and stupid. As for an MD's perception, sounds more like they feel a threat to their job security than anything else.  

The way I see it, when you go to the emergency room and while on your back either in pieces from a car accident or grasping your chest because of a heart attack, the first thing you should not think about is gee, I sure hope my doctor went to an allopathic medical school.

i sure hope that they are board certified... it is the great equalizer and ensures they have a basic fund of knowledge and maintain an increased standard of continuing education... if they are not board certified by an abms board there is no way of knowing what you are getting... they may have never taken any training in their so called "speciality"... which is dangerous, especially in oklahoma, where you can get a medical license if you never even passed the third part of your board exams (the last state in the union that does so... shock.)


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: guido911 on November 17, 2008, 08:42:53 pm
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The perception is that DO's do not have the same comprehensive level of coursework that MDs have.  An MD has detailed knowledge about all facets of medicine while a DO only has knowledge in the particular area which they study, which is often general practice.  Hence, no area of expertise.

Not vouching for it, just what the perception is.



Unless you are a physician, perceptions of who is better skilled, DO or MD, is absolutely meaningless and relying on that perception is a waste of time. Speaking as someone intimately familiar with DO training, I CAN vouch that the debate is mindless and stupid. As for an MD's perception, sounds more like they feel a threat to their job security than anything else.  

The way I see it, when you go to the emergency room and while on your back either in pieces from a car accident or grasping your chest because of a heart attack, the first thing you should not think about is gee, I sure hope my doctor went to an allopathic medical school.

i sure hope that they are board certified... it is the great equalizer and ensures they have a basic fund of knowledge and maintain an increased standard of continuing education... if they are not board certified by an abms board there is no way of knowing what you are getting... they may have never taken any training in their so called "speciality"... which is dangerous, especially in oklahoma, where you can get a medical license if you never even passed the third part of your board exams (the last state in the union that does so... shock.)


 
You keep referring to the "ABMS". Are DO's that attend DO residency programs and become board certified from that program eligible to have the blessing of the ABMS?


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: jne on November 18, 2008, 07:25:30 am
quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The perception is that DO's do not have the same comprehensive level of coursework that MDs have.  An MD has detailed knowledge about all facets of medicine while a DO only has knowledge in the particular area which they study, which is often general practice.  Hence, no area of expertise.

Not vouching for it, just what the perception is.



Unless you are a physician, perceptions of who is better skilled, DO or MD, is absolutely meaningless and relying on that perception is a waste of time. Speaking as someone intimately familiar with DO training, I CAN vouch that the debate is mindless and stupid. As for an MD's perception, sounds more like they feel a threat to their job security than anything else.  

The way I see it, when you go to the emergency room and while on your back either in pieces from a car accident or grasping your chest because of a heart attack, the first thing you should not think about is gee, I sure hope my doctor went to an allopathic medical school.

i sure hope that they are board certified... it is the great equalizer and ensures they have a basic fund of knowledge and maintain an increased standard of continuing education... if they are not board certified by an abms board there is no way of knowing what you are getting... they may have never taken any training in their so called "speciality"... which is dangerous, especially in oklahoma, where you can get a medical license if you never even passed the third part of your board exams (the last state in the union that does so... shock.)


 
You keep referring to the "ABMS". Are DO's that attend DO residency programs and become board certified from that program eligible to have the blessing of the ABMS?



Nope, as I understand it they would have to go to an ACGME (MD) residency.  Bruno seems to think these are the only legitimate residency programs.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: sgrizzle on November 18, 2008, 08:07:44 am
Back on topic, this is absolutely shameful:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20081118_17_A1_Iftops477608

Millions upon Millions lauded at OKC to keep their state hospital running and care for the indigent and little to nothing for Tulsa.

$77M in federal funds annually?

Money is allocated by the state?

Yeah, no OKC bias at all.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 18, 2008, 08:09:04 am
This was sent to me by a friend who goes to OSU-CHS, the students are/have gotten involved and sent out some emails.  This reply was forwarded all over the college:

quote:

Thanks for your email. I firmly support the preservation of the OSU Medical Center and have been fighting back against the opposition. We need Senator Coffee, Speaker Benge and Treasurer Scott Meacham to support the proposal that you may have read about -- transfer the hospital to a public trust with an state-funded indigent care subsidy of $12M a year plus a loan from the state for working capital and capital improvements. This is the proposal supported by Senator Wilson and myself, the Tulsa Chamber, the Mayor, Ardent and St. Johns, the Kaiser Foundation (which has offered $20M over 5 years to help) and The Tulsa World.

. . .

The Daily Oklahoman editorial is both regrettable and predictable. The OU facility in OKC receives $54 million a year for indigent care -- $27 million in direct subsidy from the state and $27 million in an arbitrary carveout of the Disproportionate Share Hospital funds. I fail to see any defense in the funding disparity for the two urban centers.

I will be continuing the fight to save the OSU Medical Center until the last drop of candle wax.

Regards,

Tom [Senator Tom Adleson]



$54,000,000.00 for OKC just for OU, Tulsans can go ahead and die off though.  Everyone knows OSU isn't as important as OU, and Tulsa health care is not one fourth as important as OKC (or at least, that's what the math is telling me).

That doesn't even count the other public health facilities in OKC.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: guido911 on November 18, 2008, 08:22:29 am
quote:
Originally posted by jne

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The perception is that DO's do not have the same comprehensive level of coursework that MDs have.  An MD has detailed knowledge about all facets of medicine while a DO only has knowledge in the particular area which they study, which is often general practice.  Hence, no area of expertise.

Not vouching for it, just what the perception is.



Unless you are a physician, perceptions of who is better skilled, DO or MD, is absolutely meaningless and relying on that perception is a waste of time. Speaking as someone intimately familiar with DO training, I CAN vouch that the debate is mindless and stupid. As for an MD's perception, sounds more like they feel a threat to their job security than anything else.  

The way I see it, when you go to the emergency room and while on your back either in pieces from a car accident or grasping your chest because of a heart attack, the first thing you should not think about is gee, I sure hope my doctor went to an allopathic medical school.

i sure hope that they are board certified... it is the great equalizer and ensures they have a basic fund of knowledge and maintain an increased standard of continuing education... if they are not board certified by an abms board there is no way of knowing what you are getting... they may have never taken any training in their so called "speciality"... which is dangerous, especially in oklahoma, where you can get a medical license if you never even passed the third part of your board exams (the last state in the union that does so... shock.)


 
You keep referring to the "ABMS". Are DO's that attend DO residency programs and become board certified from that program eligible to have the blessing of the ABMS?



Nope, as I understand it they would have to go to an ACGME (MD) residency.  Bruno seems to think these are the only legitimate residency programs.



That was my impression as well. I looked at the ABMS website and did not see any DO board certifications that they recognize.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: sgrizzle on November 18, 2008, 08:45:28 am
ABMS is an allopathic board only. Might as well ask if you doctor is ASE certified.

The non-profit board certification for DO's is through the AOA.


Why are we talking about this?!?


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: sgrizzle on November 18, 2008, 08:47:08 am
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

This was sent to me by a friend who goes to OSU-CHS, the students are/have gotten involved and sent out some emails.  This reply was forwarded all over the college:

quote:

Thanks for your email. I firmly support the preservation of the OSU Medical Center and have been fighting back against the opposition. We need Senator Coffee, Speaker Benge and Treasurer Scott Meacham to support the proposal that you may have read about -- transfer the hospital to a public trust with an state-funded indigent care subsidy of $12M a year plus a loan from the state for working capital and capital improvements. This is the proposal supported by Senator Wilson and myself, the Tulsa Chamber, the Mayor, Ardent and St. Johns, the Kaiser Foundation (which has offered $20M over 5 years to help) and The Tulsa World.

. . .

The Daily Oklahoman editorial is both regrettable and predictable. The OU facility in OKC receives $54 million a year for indigent care -- $27 million in direct subsidy from the state and $27 million in an arbitrary carveout of the Disproportionate Share Hospital funds. I fail to see any defense in the funding disparity for the two urban centers.

I will be continuing the fight to save the OSU Medical Center until the last drop of candle wax.

Regards,

Tom [Senator Tom Adleson]



$54,000,000.00 for OKC just for OU, Tulsans can go ahead and die off though.  Everyone knows OSU isn't as important as OU, and Tulsa health care is not one fourth as important as OKC (or at least, that's what the math is telling me).

That doesn't even count the other public health facilities in OKC.



Makes me wish I had moved so I could've voted for Tom Adelson.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: guido911 on November 18, 2008, 09:18:59 am
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

ABMS is an allopathic board only. Might as well ask if you doctor is ASE certified.

The non-profit board certification for DO's is through the AOA.


Why are we talking about this?!?



"WE" were not talking about this. jne, Bruno and I were talking about this.[;)]


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: brunoflipper on November 18, 2008, 03:22:06 pm
quote:
Originally posted by jne

  Bruno seems to think these are the only legitimate residency programs.



yep... i do and i stand by it... and i'm not alone... http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/106/5/252 (http://"http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/106/5/252")...

most non-abms boards have limited accountability for continuing education (they leave it up to the state- which is a joke) and  widely varying (many have none) testing for recertification... they are dodgey at best...

i'll end my tangent...


anywho, sure hope they come up with some cash to fix this and keep osumc open... keep in mind, when you crack 140 residents affiliated with one institution, the graduate medical education dollars (gubmint monies) take a big uptick- bringing over osu puts saint francis over that mark...


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: guido911 on November 18, 2008, 04:17:20 pm
quote:

most non-abms boards have limited accountability for continuing education (they leave it up to the state- which is a joke) and  widely varying (many have none) testing for recertification... they are dodgey at best...

i'll end my tangent...


anywho, sure hope they come up with some cash to fix this and keep osumc open... keep in mind, when you crack 140 residents affiliated with one institution, the graduate medical education dollars (gubmint monies) take a big uptick- bringing over osu puts saint francis over that mark...



First, I will concede your right to your opinion regarding non-ABMS approved residency programs. I will trust in the fact that the DO I am intimately familiar with that voluntarily chose not to attend one of these ABMS annointed programs is one of the finest osteopathic physicians I know. Count your blessings if you ever find yourself in an ER needing your opinionated life saved.

Incidentally, why keep OSUMC open if it provides poor medical training to its residents?


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: cannon_fodder on November 18, 2008, 04:19:24 pm
Can I nominate a OD/MD thread to continue the discussion?

No offense, I know I kind of opened the box in that one.  But I keep thinking there is news on the medical center!


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: brunoflipper on November 18, 2008, 05:26:35 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:

most non-abms boards have limited accountability for continuing education (they leave it up to the state- which is a joke) and  widely varying (many have none) testing for recertification... they are dodgey at best...

i'll end my tangent...


anywho, sure hope they come up with some cash to fix this and keep osumc open... keep in mind, when you crack 140 residents affiliated with one institution, the graduate medical education dollars (gubmint monies) take a big uptick- bringing over osu puts saint francis over that mark...



First, I will concede your right to your opinion regarding non-ABMS approved residency programs. I will trust in the fact that the DO I am intimately familiar with that voluntarily chose not to attend one of these ABMS annointed programs is one of the finest osteopathic physicians I know. Count your blessings if you ever find yourself in an ER needing your opinionated life saved.


that is funny.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: brunoflipper on November 18, 2008, 05:27:36 pm
we need to keep osu's residencies and their hospital alive because they save a huge underserved population...



Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: guido911 on November 18, 2008, 06:48:11 pm
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper

we need to keep osu's residencies and their hospital alive because they save a huge underserved population...





Let's see, you first claim that it is dangerous to have non-ABMS certified physicians working out there, then you turn around and claim that we need these apparently unqualified/underqualified physicians providing care to the underserved population. Hypocrite.

CF is right. This should be its own thread.


Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: brunoflipper on November 19, 2008, 03:54:30 pm
somethin' is better than nothin'...[:P]


but yes, i think that docs certified by their peer governing body are the real deal and as for other boards? not so much (i.e. American Board of Plastic Surgery ABPS and FACS vs. ABCS/ASPS/ASAPS/FACOS)... disagree all you want, kanye has my back...



Title: [SURPRISE] Daily Oklahoman says abandon OSUMC
Post by: sgrizzle on November 20, 2008, 07:37:47 am
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper

somethin' is better than nothin'...[:P]


but yes, i think that docs certified by their peer governing body are the real deal and as for other boards? not so much (i.e. American Board of Plastic Surgery ABPS and FACS vs. ABCS/ASPS/ASAPS/FACOS)... disagree all you want, kanye has my back...





Didn't physical therapists recently make up their own doctorate?