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Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 09, 2008, 07:16:39 am The Tulsa World says Oklahoma is 'out of step' with the rest of the country because McCain had such a huge victory in Oklahoma (largest percentage win then any other state).
First, I think I'm offended. Second, 46% of the country must be 'out of step' too, since that's how many votes McCain got across the country. And third, didn't the Tulsa World endorse McCain, thus encouraging everyone to vote 'out of step'? http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?articleID=20081109_215_G6_Whilem209426 Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: TheArtist on November 09, 2008, 08:32:00 am I think someone needs to improve their reading comprehension skills.
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 09, 2008, 09:27:34 am Why would you be offended?
Yes, we're out of step with all but a handful of states whose rural/urban makeup is similar to ours and who also rely on their religion to guide their vote. More importantly, we're out of step with the the rest of the world as well, and on more than just politics. So revel in it. The future of this state now rests in the kindness and benevolence of strangers (also known as "Libruls"). Our cocoon is comfy eh? I disagree with the World editor on one point that seems obvious to all but them. We are still economically out of phase with the rest of the country. Our housing is still barely hanging on, our oil industry revenues pumped our economy while draining the rest of the country and our employment figures are not as bad either. But just like the eighties the slump will come, the disparity in wealth will be magnified and thousands of job seekers will descend upon Tulsa having believed we are still economically healthy. Maybe they can fill the jobs the 30,000 departed Hispanic's left behind. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: MDepr2007 on November 09, 2008, 10:36:53 am I wish they could show which contestant received the most un-educated votes and which one received the most votes from someone feeling the need to add a hyphen when calling themselves an American [:D]
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: rwarn17588 on November 09, 2008, 10:47:12 am quote: Obama won the college-educated vote. Draw your own conclusions. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: USRufnex on November 09, 2008, 10:51:14 am quote: 45.6% of the country voted for Dukakis in 1988. People I met in Boston in the mid-90s reflected the same sentiments about Massacusetts being "out of step" as David Averill's article argues today. This election has proved my theory about this state..... that Oklahoma is to the National Republican Party what Massachusetts has been to the Democrats. I wish this state would reflect the same kinds of conservatism I saw when I lived in Indiana.... traditional conservative views that are not necessarily wedded to liberal-hating wingnut ideology and mythology... Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: azbadpuppy on November 09, 2008, 12:33:49 pm Well, I for one am very disillusioned after this election. Although I no longer live in OK, I grew up there and most of my family still lives there. I consider Oklahoma my home state, and have very fond memories of it.
First off, watching the election results with a large group of people as Oklahoma went 'red' on the map about 5 minutes after their polls closed was interesting. Obviously there was no counting needed. Then, to have OK sit there red for hours while all the other states around it actually had to count their votes was also sobering. "Hey, what's up with Oklahoma??" everyone kept asking me. Then the real kicker came when the in-state results were announced. Inhofe and Kern both were re-elected. By a landslide. It's bad enough that Oklahoma went higher in percentage than Utah for McCain, but that I can handle. What is incomprehensible is why Oklahomans would keep electing fear and hate mongering politicians whose only obvious base is the far religious right. This is not fair and accurate representation for all of Oklahoma, and is the reason why politics there is a national joke. Honestly I hate to say it because I have always been a staunch advocate of my home state and hometown of Tulsa, and often have to defend both from uninformed East and West Coasters who think Oklahoma is stll nothing but a wasteland straight out of the 'Grapes of Wrath' controlled by religious zealots. But after this election and the obvious bias in Oklahoma, I can no longer dispute the facts. I still love Oklahoma, but gone are the days where I considered moving back and reclaiming my home where my family has lived for four generations. Nobody wants to live where they feel they are not wanted. This is the very reason Oklahoma cannot attract nor retain more centric minded people. Until the citizens of Oklahoma can figure out how to separate their politics from religion, the state will always be perceived as an intolerant, regressive place to live. Out of step? That is an understatement. Sometimes you need to take a step out and look back in to get an accurate portrayal of what is really happening. I know Oklahoma has always been conservative, but we are not talking about the true "conservative versus liberal" thinking anymore. The hijacking of politics by the religious extremists for their social agendas needs to be stopped. It is crippling for the state of Oklahoma, it is un-American and the rest of America is taking notice. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: patric on November 09, 2008, 02:09:35 pm quote: Maybe living in Tulsa clouds our view of how out of step the rest of Oklahoma really is. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: azbadpuppy on November 09, 2008, 02:38:20 pm quote: Yeah, I thought that too, but Tulsa county went overwhelmingly in favor of Inhofe, and voted more republican across the board than Oklahoma County. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: MDepr2007 on November 09, 2008, 06:10:43 pm but yet there is still enough lefties to re-elect Henry.....
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: guido911 on November 09, 2008, 06:19:11 pm quote: Obama probably won the toothless, meth-addicted homeless vote as well. Draw your own conclusions. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Neptune on November 09, 2008, 08:06:07 pm quote: Get down to the precinct level. Midtown precincts and North Tulsa precincts, that's the Dems stronghold. From Tulsa World (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20081109_11_A9_TonrhT676146") (http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2008/20081109_votebreak1109.jpg) That's fairly typical of Tulsa County. Tight in Midtown, Burbs and South Tulsa drown out Dems. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: grahambino on November 10, 2008, 10:48:02 am quote: and i offer my praise to Limecat everyday for that fact, though Brad Henry <> "lefty". I can't imagine this State if Largent had won. It's going to be bad enough here in a few years, after this State is bankrupt. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: inteller on November 10, 2008, 11:03:24 am quote: wow, remove the blue dots in mid town and you have a pretty good map of Tulsa's ghettos. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 10, 2008, 11:24:30 am quote: To claim the only reason Inhoff keeps getting re-elected is because of the religious right, I believe, is incorrect. Inhoff keeps getting re-elected by a huge majority because of the work he gets done on behalf of the people he works for. While Inhoff comes off as being a little harsh, he is still a good conservative representative for the huge conservative population of his home state. And, believe me, I'm far more concerned about the people in the states who keep re-electing folks like: Senator Robert Byrd Congressman Jack Murtha I could go on. While both of these guys come off as baffoons, their constituents must see something in them, just as many people do here about Inhoff. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: we vs us on November 10, 2008, 11:37:56 am A good case could be made that Oklahoma is the new capital of the new GOP. A smaller party, more radical, less representative of America as a whole. Oklahoma hit a lot of benchmarks last Tuesday qualifying it as the most faithfully conservative state in the union, and if the Republican party decides it wants to be more purely orthodox (rather than compromising) in the coming years, I can't see why Oklahoma -- a state which seems to agree by a large margin with almost everything that Bush-era conservatism represented -- wouldn't be the ideal seat of the GOP-in-exile. Granted, an Oklahoma-centered Republican party wouldn't be about new ideas for a new millenium. Instead, it would be about old ideas for the new millenium, and how conservatism is a timeless and unchanging star in the firmament, and how human civilization itself pivots around it.
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 10, 2008, 11:44:51 am That's funny! inhofe is Slightly harsh!! Good conservative!! Ghettos! Lefty Governor!! Keep them coming Okies, its a dreary, cold, rainy Monday and I need something to make me laugh. Oh, wait a minute...Liberal Tulsa World!! How's that? Wait, wait....Midtown Moneybelt Liberals!!! Passenger trains are unfeasible!!
(despite the fact that other communities are making them work Seriously, the denial Okies are infected with is humorous. If it wasn't for our oil, gas and casinos, our state, including Tulsa, would already be bankrupt. Soon enough, soon enough. Hell, we can't even sell our most plentiful asset, clean water, without being sued to do so. Like the guy from Arizona said, its getting harder and harder to defend our state to all those crazy heathen liberals that surround us. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: MichaelBates on November 10, 2008, 12:06:35 pm quote: Not in Oklahoma. (http://"http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=OKP00p2") Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: RecycleMichael on November 10, 2008, 12:19:46 pm "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle "But, not in Oklahoma" RecycleMichael Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 10, 2008, 12:30:00 pm This was a sobering election. I am concerned what a Republican majority in the Legislature will do. Things were bad enough as it was.
No one is more loyal to the GOP that Oklahoma but look at what we get for it. Nothing. I was in Dallas a couple of weeks ago and there’s no doubt the GOP Gravy Train makes frequent regular stops in Texas, but look what we get. Nothing. Went back to look at Oklahoma History from the ‘30s and it was much like today. We work against our own self-interest. The state that gave us the Okie migration was also the state that spent much of the Depression working against WPA funding. Between the weather and the Depression, we did what we could to make things worse for ourselves. We helped create the Okie migration. So we are in for more hell fire and hatefulness and low income -- we are used to that. But there is something worse going on that we are largely unaware of. People don’t fully realize the number of workers that are being deported because they chose to work in Oklahoma. Because of HB1804 we are deporting innocent gardeners, cleaning ladies, construction workers, restaurant workers, car repairmen, and agricultural workers every week. Friends tell me it’s a matter of luck of the draw and which policeman stops you. Some enforce, some don’t. Families are being separated by the State of Oklahoma. People guilty of simple traffic infractions or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time are being deported. There’s a woman in my office that calls Oklahoma “God’s Country.” I listen and think to myself -- not my God. No one needed a change of direction more than Oklahoma. But we aren’t going to get it. We are going to get what we deserve though. Indeed, we already have. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Gaspar on November 10, 2008, 12:42:56 pm No need to worry about anything anymore. Republicans are a thing of the past. Perhaps, the "individual" will be a thing of the past under our new administration too? I will reserve judgement on that.
I estimate that by this time next year they will confiscate control of all private 401K money. They are already making plans. http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/dems-target-private-retirement-accounts.html They will have to pay for the next 5 or 6 rounds of bailout plans somehow, why not borrow against your retirement? Hide your acorns. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: grahambino on November 10, 2008, 01:07:44 pm quote: It could also be said McCain also won the college drop-out vote. so 73% (634) of people polled 'attended college' but only 36% (228) actually graduated...nice Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: sgrizzle on November 10, 2008, 01:20:33 pm quote: Actually it's 634 and 312. National droput rate is 46% so we're a bit above average, but not obscenely high. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: grahambino on November 10, 2008, 01:31:30 pm quote: how can you graduate college without 'attending college' first? I took 36% of the 73% that answered the first question... Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Chicken Little on November 10, 2008, 01:32:11 pm quote:We have college educated people now? I guess that's one more group for Okies to HATE! Anyone for a 1804 1/2? That there college boy took mah job!!![}:)] Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: sgrizzle on November 10, 2008, 02:16:37 pm quote: It's 36% of the respondents Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 10, 2008, 06:13:54 pm quote: Yah. I hear where you're coming from. We really suck. 1. Lowest gas prices in the country. 2. Low cost of living. 3. Our housing market basically unaffected. 4. Low unemployment. 5. A still decent economy. Too bad we aren't doing as great as everyone else. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: HazMatCFO on November 10, 2008, 09:35:00 pm I voted for McCain because my beliefs are closer to his than of Barack Obama's. So that makes me out of step with those who voted for Obama, big deal.
I vote on who I think represents my views the best, not who makes me more popular with the majority of voters. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: nathanm on November 11, 2008, 12:12:00 am quote: 1. Some of the lowest gas taxes in the country (and some of the lowest gas prices, but not the lowest, by any means) 3. Just because we lag doesn't mean we have nothing to worry about. You really think home prices are going to stay up with all the foreclosures and now the lower price of oil? 4. High wage jobs out, low wage call center jobs in. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: TheArtist on November 11, 2008, 08:40:32 am quote: Dont forget how we can be proud of our high crime rates, high poverty rates, high rates of homelessness and hunger, high drug abuse rates, high rates of suicide, high rates of divorce, high rates of child abuse and neglect, high rates of teen pregnancies, high rates of obesity and diabetes, high rates of tobacco use, crumbling infrastructure, lower life expectancies,etc. etc. ... We rank right up there with third world countries. But like them, it costs very little to live here and to buy some things. We will see how it all shakes out. Some areas were living too high on the hog, above their means, spending too much. But its also possible to spend/invest too little. I think a lot of what good fortune we have had has come from oil. Money, past and present, that in large part has come from fortunate happenstance, not of our cleverness, wisdom, moral compass or work ethic. As oil becomes less of a player, we will better see how our choices stack up to those in the rest of the country. Dollars and cents can be one means, but its the mental and physical quality of life which must be the ends we are judged by. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 11, 2008, 08:55:49 am quote: Wake up Wilbur! Stop believing the news that only covers the last fifteen minutes and only an inch deep. 1.I assume you mean gasoline and not gas- We are close to the rest of the country and the lower prices are killing our state tax revenues. Other states don't rely on gasl. revenues as much as we do. 2.Low cost of living is balanced off with LOW payscales and a lower quality of life. Easy to live here if you have good income or income from out of state. Otherwise its a wash. 3.Housing market unnaffected? Pay attention to the signs my friend. Real estate signs. Lots of new rental property around town as people give up their homes because of the mortgage fiasco. Yes, it hit here too but don't expect to hear about it from your Realtor@ friends or the COC. But take a little drive through north Tulsa and check out the vacant homes that only a year ago were rented out. Now they're being dismantled by thieves. Spend some time looking at the hundreds of foreclosures offered up by property companies like Perry who leveraged their properties and now can't make payments. We lost over 30,000 immigrants due to HB1804 and that didn't help either. Check into the average selling time of a listing and note the increase in listings all over town. Talk to a home builder. 4. Low unemployment? What is your latest quote and from where? There is a lag in reporting and actual numbers. Cox just laid off about a thousand and stopped hiring. Office Depot has a hiring freeze as do most retail employers. Sunday classifieds lowest I've seen in a decade. Especially note very few retail help wanted ads with Christmas approaching. 5. Still decent economy? Says who? You got a good job well then bully for you. We are a little out of phase with the rest of the country economically but you're p***ing into the wind if you think we're in good shape in Tulsa. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 11, 2008, 10:12:02 am quote: Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument: 1. Gasoline: US average = $2.22, Tulsa at $1.73. http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html 2. Cost of Living: Oklahoma ranks below average. http://www.top50states.com/cost-of-living-by-state.html 3. Housing market: http://www.housingpredictor.com/oklahoma.html 4. Unemployment: Oklahoma has 6th lowest rate. http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/ 5. Economy: most look at the health of the economy on the above factors. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 11, 2008, 10:28:14 am If you factor in our high utility bills, the cost of living in Tulsa is equivalent to what it cost to live in Oakland, CA. It costs us about $62,000 a year to maintain a household with a stripped down budget in Tulsa. Our incomes in Tulsa are over 50 percent less than they were in Oakland.
We were doing much better in Oakland. Tulsa's affordability is a myth just about everyone has bought into. But it doesn't wash. Sure housing is less than California, but your utilities in California are very low. Here they are very high. There goes our savings on housing. Then there is the moral issue of watching your friends hauled off and deported. Not completely unlike Nazi Germany. Oklahoma will have a special chapter in the Book on Racism in the U.S. Folks, we have a lot of work to do here in Oklahoma. I look back to the governorship of Marland as a standard of what Oklahoma can achieve with the right leadership. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: rwarn17588 on November 11, 2008, 12:24:23 pm quote: Where do you get this nonsense? Average per kilowatt hour in California: 14.98 cents Average per kilowatt hour in Oklahoma: 10.39 cents http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html That's a 40 percent difference in Oklahoma's favor. That's not even close. Crimony, what do you do? Put the thermostat on 85 in the winter and 68 in the summer? BTW, if you need any help on your so-called "stripped-down" budget, call me. A lot of people in this town live comfortably on less than that. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 11, 2008, 12:29:48 pm quote: And don't let reading comprehension or reality get in your way. Oh, yeah, that's why you are such a good little red republican. Your first two points may be true but are irrelevant. Gasoline prices are fluctuating and dependent upon supply issues. Has no bearing on OK as a great place to live. Probably reflects that we have less demand and oversupply, an indication of a poor economy. Having a low cost of living is as illusory as noting that bread only cost a nickel during the depression. We make less money here than elsewhere in the country. We are a cheap labor state and likely to stay that way. So, you don't pay as much for your housing but you don't make as much either. Food, cars, utilities, crime are all comparable in cost to the rest of the country so your benefit (if there is one) is that you have less selection in goods, services and the arts, but the selections you do have are less costly. That's lower quality of life. Its like comparing life on the farm to NYC and only using cost of living as your criteria. Your sources are also suspect: "The unemployment rates below are for September and were released on October 21, 2008." Read past an inch deep. These are figures that coincided with or slightly preceded the mortgage meltdown. IOW, they don’t reflect the ripple that is now reaching out to smaller markets in the Midwest. Not timely info. "A housing slump has hit Oklahoma City. Rising prices and foreclosures attribute to the slow down. But Oklahoma City hasn’t experienced high rates of foreclosures like other areas. Oklahoma City is forecast by Housing Predictor to see home prices decrease marginally from what it has experienced over the last two years, but still muster 2.5% in appreciation in 2008. City Forecast Oklahoma City 2.5% Tulsa 2.1% Edmond 2.6% Lawton 1.9% The Tulsa market has seen more foreclosures than Oklahoma City, mainly due to a weakening job market. But new businesses will bring more jobs to the area in 2008 to bolster the economy." This includes the remarks you left out. Read them carefully Wilbur. They quote reality which is that OKC and Tulsa have been hit hard by foreclosures, then estimate a growth pattern that matches the last few years in this state. Based on what? Pretty much an educated guess since they rely on journalists, economists and real estate insiders to make these predictions but fail to cite any of them or their timeliness. In fact, there is no way to even find out who these guys are! So if you believe in this stuff, you voted for McCain, and I'm gradually starting to understand why. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 11, 2008, 01:02:00 pm quote: Rwarn, It doesn't freeze near the Ocean. Maybe that has something to do with my electric bill that averaged $100 a month in California (all electric 1900 square feet) compared to $185 a month averaged in Oklahoma (electric and gas with 2300 square). My gas runs about $40 to $90 here depending on the season. We didn't have gas service at our condo. Water and trash runs me about $100 a month here. Our splurge is netflix. We spend about $150 to $200 a week on food. Groceries were less in California and better quality and no sales tax. We have two late model cars that are paid for and our insurance is the same here as it was there. Apparently you didn't travel far enough down 66 to broaden your horizon. If you settled here to save money you made a mistake. We spend as much here as we did in Oakland. TULSA IS NOT CHEAP. I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS. We made much more and spent about the same in Californa. Legal Secretary Californa around ($75,000). Legal Secretary Tulsa around ($40,000). Folks, I'm here to tell you would come out ahead in California (if you could find a good deal on housing, and you actually might be able to these days). Plus state law gives you two 15 minute breaks a day in addition to your lunch, state disability insurance versus 0 here. et cetera, et cetera. I mean the list goes on and on. I try not to harp on these things because I don't want folks to feel bad about their circumstances here in Oklahoma but honestly, I wasn't kidding when I said we are already paying on our bad karma. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: sgrizzle on November 11, 2008, 01:12:03 pm Water and trash run $100? I have a 2000sqft house with 4 people and mine is half that.
Keep in mind that your house in CA might've been different building materials & efficiency. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: rwarn17588 on November 11, 2008, 01:16:49 pm quote: Au contraire. When I moved from metro-east St. Louis to here, I indeed saved money. My pay was about the same, we got a much better house for marginally more money, property taxes dropped by 40 percent, utility rates dropped, and gasoline costs dropped as well. It also sounds like you're using way too much water. Our water, sewer and trash fees run less than $40 a month consistently. And $150 to $200 a week on food sounds crazy high. Is the word "generic" in your vocabulary? Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 11, 2008, 01:18:23 pm quote: I have a half acre with landscaping and fescue and I have to water all year round. Do you? Maybe you know something I don't. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 11, 2008, 01:22:37 pm quote: I started paying attention to the other shoppers a while back and they were paying about the same or more. My partner cooks from scratch just about every night. He's a cook. We shop at Reasors and Las Americas. Maybe you should go along to the market with your wife. You may be paying more than you think. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: rwarn17588 on November 11, 2008, 01:24:54 pm quote: Then I would suggest replacing it with a more heat- and drought-tolerant plants. I wouldn't waste huge amounts of water on plants you can't even eat. You have different priorities, I guess. BTW, I would call spending $50-plus a month on watering plants definitely a "splurge." Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: rwarn17588 on November 11, 2008, 01:29:16 pm quote: Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 11, 2008, 01:29:27 pm You've got a point. I planted azaleas and roses and fescue knowing they require a lot of water. I hope it will pay off if we sell.
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 11, 2008, 01:33:56 pm quote: Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 11, 2008, 01:35:59 pm quote: Lets resort to name calling, that's really helping your cause. NOT! You might be surprised to know that gasoline fluctuates in this state as it does in every other state. Oklahoma always ranks near the bottom in price. To claim my source for unemployment is suspect because it was released on October 21 is bogus. Particularly since the November 21 report hasn't been released yet. I used the latest figures. Do you have something other then a false claim that says in one month Oklahoma has somehow surpassed the rest of the country in unemployment. And, the housing market is still growing in the state, based on your own post. Much different in other states. Come on. Facts! Not name calling and unsubstantiated beliefs. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Neptune on November 11, 2008, 01:36:12 pm If you're so inclined, you might check into Saint Augustine sod as opposed to Fescue. I think Saint Augustine grows well here, I know it grows well a little south of here. Like Fescue, it's got the same ability to grow in shady areas. Like Bermuda, it's a "spreader" plant instead of growing in clumps, and I believe it takes less water.
Fescue is generally very expensive to maintain, IF you want it to look good; reseeding twice a year, tons of water. If you don't dump high maintenance into it, Fescue ends up being a weed. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: sgrizzle on November 11, 2008, 01:47:27 pm quote: You have a larger yard than I do, and my zoisia doesn't need as much water. Is your yard that shaded or did you pick fescue for looks? Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: sgrizzle on November 11, 2008, 01:56:30 pm quote: I'm gonna go with HT on this one. $150-$200 a week is not high, especially if you do a lot of cooking and make things from scratch, like bread. If you do cook that much, you really have to look at coupons, bulk buys, that kinda stuff. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 11, 2008, 02:04:21 pm quote: Previous owner picked fescue. I'm surprised that you know about your zoisia. I pegged you as a macho, not a gardener. Maybe you are a sensitive macho. Will check out the St. Augustine grass. Maybe we can use somewhere else down the line. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: sgrizzle on November 11, 2008, 02:14:41 pm quote: I put down a pallette of zoisia last year when I built a new courtyard. Macho? Well there's a first. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 11, 2008, 02:31:06 pm quote: Since when is calling someone a "good little red republican" construed as name calling!? If the shoe fits. Honestly, I mean no harm. You're talking jibberish Wilbur. Just because your site isn't timely doesn't mean I'm at fault. You chose it. And I didn't say we surpassed other states though I suspect we will. If you have money, buy some real estate right now in OK. You can swing some good deals. Real estate performance figures are always several months in coming though so don't wait till the "official" numbers show they're in decline. Of course, good luck in renting them or rehabbing them. BTW, Oklahoma does not always rank in the bottom for gasoline prices. Lived here very long? And that hardly counts as a major benefit of living here anyway. Its actually better for us if the cost of gasoline is high my friend. Our state is dependent on their taxes. I have no cause. Unlike you, my candidate won and I am merely dismayed at the continued warped reality this state lives in. You gave me some insight to the thought process. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hawkins on November 11, 2008, 04:00:53 pm Yeah, we're pretty backwards.
This make Fark.com today: http://www.kjrh.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=7a12f9bd-67c3-416d-83bd-a63e96959fae They reported the voter turnout for their town, but not who won?? Sad. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: TURobY on November 11, 2008, 04:14:10 pm It was also on CNN's front page yesterday.
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: PonderInc on November 11, 2008, 04:51:56 pm Oklahoma's so red, the dirt got stained....
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 11, 2008, 05:04:28 pm quote: Name a state that voted democrat with a lower unemployment rate? The top six, including Oklahoma, all voted republican. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 11, 2008, 07:02:02 pm I won't go internet surfing for that one. I'm guessing Pennsylvania where Philadelphia reported today they may have to file bankruptcy. Seems the unemployment and foreclosures there are unsightly. They went Dem by about a dozen %.
whoops! I got that backwards. I'm left handed AND dyslectic! One state might be Massachusetts, another might be Colorado, another might be Nevada. But unemployment wasn't the key to this race or why we went double mystery red. Several of the red states are facing unemployment problems. The issues were foreclosures, financial shenanigans, lobbyists, war and competence. If McCain had successfully addressed those issues he at least had a chance. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 11, 2008, 07:41:04 pm Well, not Mass, Nevada or Colorado either. [:I]
I anxiously await the unemployment figures for October, just after the meltdown and bailout. I suspect that there are early updates available to forecast the increase in job change nationwide but I don't know where to find them. Arizona btw, is one of the leaders in unemployment which could explain the closeness of the race there. If they show that OK has increased its unemployment you'll need to 'splain that. My gut is that unemployment was not a factor in our crimson red glory moment. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: nathanm on November 12, 2008, 12:20:23 am quote: One of the lowest gasoline taxes in the nation will do that to gasoline prices. ;) As far as the housing market is concerned, you haven't looked at listings lately, have you? Just in the past month or two things have gotten significantly worse. $150,000 goes a whole lot farther today than it did 6 months ago. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: TulsaFan-inTexas on November 14, 2008, 07:22:02 am quote: Geez! I'm a conservative and that is sad. It should have been all over the front page. Sapulpa, you don't impress. BTW, Obama is our next President. Let's hope for the best for him and our country and move on. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 14, 2008, 05:07:13 pm quote: I couldn't agree more! Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 19, 2008, 06:16:55 am Report: OK economy outpacing national averages
http://www.kjrh.com/news/state/story.aspx?content_id=ee23e669-d427-452f-9c1f-4b8bcdf7e16c Tulsa in top five for home prices http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2008-11-18-home-prices-q3_N.htm#Biggest Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 19, 2008, 08:44:56 am There's not much new here Wilbur. An OSU economist predicts what was posted earlier here, that the OKC economy will do better than Tulsa, who will show a slight decline next year. His predictions were based on third quarter figures. That is July-Sept. The financial crisis onset was late Sept. Think its reflected in those figures?
One wonders if you're reading these articles in depth or just cherry picking what looks like good news for Tulsa for spin sake. I want to be optimistic but the only thing I can see is mixed signals. For instance, the USAToday article has comments from all over the spectrum about the real estate market and the economy in general: "The rise in foreclosures continued to drive down the median price of homes across the country in the third quarter, according to a report released by the National Association of Realtors on Tuesday. Economists expect the fourth quarter to be worse. Between 35% and 40% of all transactions were either foreclosures or pre-foreclosure sales — called short sales — in the quarter, the report says, causing the national median price of a single-family home to drop to $200,500, 9% lower than the third quarter of 2007 and 11.9% off the peak of the housing boom, in the third quarter of 2005. "Homes are selling because prices are plunging," said Patrick Newport, economist at Global Insight. "Prices are plunging because of distressed sales." CHART: Biggest median price drops and gains While existing home sales dropped from the third quarter of 2007 in the South and the Northeast by 1.4% and 1.6%, respectively, the number of sales jumped 13.1% in the West and 2.7% in the Midwest. "It isn't a sign that it is a healthy market," Newport said. "It is just a sign that banks are foreclosing on homes and slashing prices." Note these are 3rd quarter numbers that don't take into account the September plunge. But even the guy who disagrees spins it by asserting that lowering prices is a good thing- "Joel Naroff, of Naroff Economic Advisors, disagrees. "People look at it as being bad. I see it as being good. The foreclosures and short sales are getting prices to where they belong." Sales jumped the most in Nevada, up 76%; California, 58.4%; and Arizona, 49.4%. All were among the five states with the highest number of foreclosure filings in October, according to RealtyTrac. Some areas saw modest price gains, including Buffalo, up 3%, Tulsa, up 5.1%, and Wichita, up 5.5%. But prices dropped in the majority of the 152 metropolitan areas included in the survey. Also on Tuesday, a closely followed home-builder index recorded its lowest level of confidence in the industry since it was created in January 1985. The National Association of Home Builders/Wells Fargo housing market index, which peaked at 72 in mid-2005, was at 9 on Tuesday. The index reflects home builders' view of new home sales now and in the next six months. "They've thrown in the towel," Naroff says. "We look for capitulation in the stock market, we've gotten it in the home builders' market." He predicts the worst economic numbers will come in the fourth quarter. Newport agrees: "The economy really changed on Sept. 15 when Lehman Bros. went bankrupt. That's when credit came to a halt." Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: USRufnex on November 19, 2008, 02:02:37 pm quote: http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/ What do these top six states (SOUTH DAKOTA, WYOMING, NEBRASKA, UTAH, NORTH DAKOTA, OKLAHOMA) have in common??? They are states where nobody wants to live... aka "flyover country"... And I mean that in the nicest possible way. [;)] If you're recruiting top level workers who've never experienced life in these states, how do you recruit them? Here's a Clue about what NOT to do... Don't even try to brand a city that is dominated by cultural conservatives and an overabundance of right-wing koolaid drinking dittoheads as "comfortably cosmopolitan"... it just ain't-a-gonna cut it.... The next 5 states with the lowest unemployment rates actually voted for Obama, and those were: NEW MEXICO, NEW HAMPSHIRE, IOWA, VIRGINIA, HAWAII. My argument is that Oklahoma is one of a handful of states that actually has a problem with over-employment... the job market has had such low unemployement for such a long time, it takes a toll on the work ethic here.... job applicants here score lower on interviews/screenings... not necessarily because they're less qualified, but because they don't know what it's like to hunt and hunt for weeks/months in a difficult job market... so, there is an oddly awkward mentality of market-based job entitlement here that is nowhere to be found in most other states... So, you heard it here first... from one of those "liberal dems"----- IMO, unemployment is actually too low in Oklahoma... which is why all too many local job applicants are SPOILED ROTTEN... and in certain sectors of the job market, you simply can't pay enough to get people who've never lived in Oklahoma to relocate here... And the domination of far right, Republican party politics here has done little/nothing to help... Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 19, 2008, 02:51:34 pm I knew I was back home when I feel into a depression. God bless Oklahoma.
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 20, 2008, 06:10:22 am Tulsa home values stay stable when values for the entire nation went down 9.7%.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=20081120_32_A1_hTheci59076 Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: TheArtist on November 20, 2008, 08:22:58 am Well, so far nothing is happening beyond what I have expected for a long time. I am hoping we only see a slight decline for all of next year, then hold steady and start a slow uphill climb the year after. That would be the best case scenario if everything goes well.
I remember a long time ago being alarmed about how "well" the economy was doing and that we were due for a downturn. How Tulsa is usually behind the curve during the good times. Just as we were starting to see an uptick, our downtown begin to revive and see the beginnings of some urban living options in different areas.... I just had that sinking feeling, That would be when the downturn would hit. Usually seems to be Tulsas luck lol. Just as we start to gather up steam and see some really hopeful signs, the national economy collapses and pulls the rug right out from under us. It hasnt yet, but the grip is tight and braced to start pulling. Looks like Bomasada is going to go through. Remember how I said we should take that development, though not perfect, because the economy was about to dive, and if we fussed and fought too much there was a good chance that future development might not happen and Brookside may stagnate at best, or see another downturn. Though I think the Brookside and Cherry Street areas are small enough and have established themselves as THE main areas serving a much underserved demographic in the area. I do really hope that next year doesnt put a damper on downtown developments like the Mayo Lofts and such. Whats in the pipeline and started should get done. Just hope they sell well or we will not likely see much of anything more for several years,,, under the best case scenario. I hope Tulsa is positioned to do the "slow and steady" growth mode and will not see too bad a downturn next year. I think in a way our late growth start/downtown revitalization will help us. The building of the new Baseball Stadium will help keep a positive outlook and momentum going for downtown that we otherwise might see falter a bit. Even the River District investors seem to be plugging ahead with that large development. Its entirely likely that Tulsa will feel this recession less than the last ones. We will and already have been impacted by it, but I dont think it will be as bad as the last ones were on us. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 20, 2008, 09:00:19 am quote: Man, you are such a headline reader. Those blinders you wear must be too tight...cutting off circulation to the big head. Two things stick out,(besides this being a "whistling in the dark" rehash of other stories)-1. I have never seen a tax appraisers value of a home decline unless it is destroyed in some manner or foreclosed on. Owned homes in different neighborhoods for over 35years and used to sell real estate. That is a bogus method of valuating. The only way it becomes credible is when the tax assessment is based on selling price. 2. Read the comments following the story. They understand what I've been trying to tell you. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 20, 2008, 05:13:04 pm Chamber CEO says "Tulsa somewhat insulated from the economic crisis."
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1108/571661.html Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: USRufnex on November 21, 2008, 11:23:12 am Well.... I moved here mostly based on lower housing prices, cost of living, unemployement... and with my dumb luck, the place I moved from (Chicago) has had a sharp drop in home prices (d'oh).... this national recession/depression is going to hit Oklahoma, and it'll be especially bad if the price of oil dips under $50 per barrel.... which is why my quest for a cheap house/condo is in "wait-and-see" mode these days...
I'm not asking much: I just wish Oklahoma would occasionally be a swing state-- like conservative Indiana and North Carolina were this year. I like the people in this state, but I HATE the politics here.... the big LIE of the right is that a flat tax would benefit everyone, when the biggest beneficiaries would ironically be upper middle class folks in BLUE states, where $250,000 doesn't go nearly as far as it does here... from the TW article: "The worst-ever performance by a Democratic presidential candidate in Oklahoma was achieved by another liberal, George McGovern, who drew a scant 24 percent of the votes cast in 1972 against Richard Nixon's 73 percent and third-party candidate John G. Schmitz's 2 percent. Back in the day when jobs, personal income and investment wealth were directly or indirectly tied to the oil and gas industries, Oklahoma was oftentimes out of step economically with the rest of the nation. High energy prices meant good times here and bad times elsewhere; conversely, low oil and gas prices spelled hard times in Oklahoma and good times in the non-producing states. Nowadays Oklahoma is not quite so closely tethered to oil and gas and so it is more in phase with the economic ups and downs that prevail across the nation. Once again, however, Oklahoma finds itself out of step with much of the rest of the United States, not economically but politically. That apparently is fine with a large majority of Oklahoma voters." David Arnett isn't trying to tell Tulsans they should vote Democrat.... he's simply telling the truth about this state. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Red Arrow on November 21, 2008, 12:30:14 pm quote: Edit:Too quick on the keyboard return key, it posted before I could type my reply. That would be similar to me wanting Massachusetts to turn conservative had I moved to near Boston during the 1980s tech bubble. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: nathanm on November 21, 2008, 10:26:34 pm quote: I loved this part: quote: Apparently nobody ever bothered to look at the graph's on Zillow's site. There's a bubble, it just didn't inflate as much as it has elsewhere, and there's value declines in most neighborhoods. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2008, 12:45:45 am quote: Just think, if we had confined our development area like some other cities, either artificially or by geographic obstacles, we could have had a huge increase in property values and now be suffering as much as the rest of the country. Makes me feel out of step. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Breadburner on November 22, 2008, 08:00:49 am We are always behind the rest of the country....Our suffering is coming I hate to admit....
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: nathanm on November 22, 2008, 09:11:00 am quote: Get a clue, the stupid price increases were not due to restricted development, but to a ridiculous amount of money being poured into the housing market. (for the purpose of selling MBS and CDS on those MBS) Hell, even NW Arkansas' housing market is hurting, and they have essentially no development restrictions. Orlando? Hardly any development restrictions, but still a huge bubble, just like the rest of Florida. Most of California is pretty damn pro-development, too. The parts that aren't are mostly the parts that were developed years and years ago. Regardless, you ignored my point..there was a large increase in property values here around 2001-2002. Just look at the Zillow graphs for most any property. At least it was only a 30% overvaluation instead of 200%. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Red Arrow on November 22, 2008, 10:46:36 am quote: I didn't ignore your point. There have been posts on this forum promoting limiting the areas of development to increase property values. I don't feel like wasting the time to dig them up. One specific example was the bridge over the Arkansas at the Yale & 121st area. A comparison was made to Portland (I believe) which had a river limiting development. The area was commended for not building a bridge, thereby increasing property values by limiting the area available to build. Housing costs are partly driven by supply and demand. Certainly some of the price is driven by the desire for a nicer "upscale" quality. There had to be some reason why our bubble was only about 30% rather than 200%. I doubt many of the posters on this forum would attribute it to the superior intellect of Oklahoma residents realizing the real value of a home not paying more than 30% over that value. Maybe we have superior bankers that wouldn't lend the money to pay too much for a home that the borrower couldn't afford to pay back. Maybe we are just too poor to have a 200% housing bubble, the best we could afford was 30%. Still puts us out of step with the rest of the country. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 23, 2008, 01:11:25 pm No, we committed the same sins as the rest of the country when it comes to lending abuses. We just didn't have the same effects because our community did not grow as fast. We didn't grow as fast because we lost major employers this last decade. Why that happened was somewhat out of our control but some of it was due to crooked businessmen who got caught. Anyway, less growth, less damage. Our crisis is simply unfolding slower.
I don't remember ANY comments or arguments that stopping bridges across the Arkansas would increase values inside its limits. That is a bogus logic you picked up somewhere else, maybe Portland. What I did hear was the fears that it would spur growth of both retail and road building expense in the Jenks, Bixby, Glenpool areas at the expense of other areas, notably downtown and inner city development. The burbs represent older lifestyle development that is more expensive and out of step with the rest of the country. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Red Arrow on November 23, 2008, 06:34:16 pm quote: Perhaps this will refresh your memory. The thread was “OH No…not again…Toll Bridge”. Making property within a boundary more valuable will drive up the price. Artist: Sorry to drag you into this but when someone tries to call my bluff when I am not bluffing, I feel compelled to respond. City Father Posted - 09/03/2008 : 10:17:16 quote: Originally posted by Red ArrowA new bridge could also be used by mass transit to the new neighborhoods. Adding mass transit while the neighborhoods are developing will be more successful than trying to add it later as most of Tulsa has proven. High density living has been the topic of many threads. Not everyone wants it for themselves. Even then, "high density" has different meanings for different folks. A bridge that saves 7 miles each way on a round trip is a gas savings on a trip that will probably be taken regardless of the miles. The IDL has been cited as a barrier to sensible development. I see the river as the same type barrier. Crossing that barrier could avoid duplicate retail development that only serves to dilute the customer base at both places and convert more land to parking spaces for cars. I see this particular bridge as making both places more efficient. I would like to agree with you about not "enabling" growth by adding roads and bridges but local history shows that the growth will happen even with insufficient infrastructure. I keep thinking of Portland and their urban growth boundaries when I think of doing or not doing this bridge. Our river can help act as such a boundary. It makes the property within that boundary more valuable and helps stem sprawl and too much driving. "Avoid duplicate retail development".... thats exactly what we get with sprawl, the never ending duplication of big box retail strips and people having to drive everywhere to get to everything. Instead think "nodal" with pockets of medium density scattered around. Suburbs as complete, seperate, mini cities surrounded by trees and farmland, connected with a few good roads and mass transit. Not one contiguous sprawling, inefficient mess. There would be less roads and infrastructure, and believe it or not, more nature and community for people to enjoy. One of the sad comments about typical suburban sprawl is that in the end it destroys the nature and "country feel" that people move out there for in the first place. By keeping the nodes more compact, the country feel is actually maintained. The ideal size for these nodes/small towns is about 100-150 thousand population. I am going to start a different thread to illustrate what I am trying to describe later. Its just a different paradigm for growth, an ideal, if you will. Not everyone will want it, not every place can be that way, but by understanding and having it as an option to consider when making development choices, I think better descisions can be made. Right now we just seem to think in the 2 terms that we understand, that we are used to seeing and see as the only choices of sprawl and urban, when there is actually a very interesting middle road that combines many of the pluses of both and gets rid of many of the negatives of both. Many places in Europe take for granted this type of growth. People there assume its the norm and like it, where as here we argue that somehow the suburban lifestyle as we know it is the norm. Its just a habit that we are familiar with. The way we are talking about this bridge shows that we dont even consider this other option, we continue ever onward with what we know and are familiar with, good or not. "When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way his stomach growls for food."-Irving Stone Edited by - TheArtist on 09/03/2008 10:26:11 Country: USA | Posts: 3715 Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 24, 2008, 07:53:11 am C'mon Red Arrow...No One reads Artists posts![;)]
Seriously, his remarks did not represent consensus out of the tons of posts on the matter. Artist has some thoughtful musings that even he would admit are free association thinking. He is more or less exploring concepts out loud. But, there was no movement to try and bolster property values by opposing the bridges. Most of the opposition was due to the unfairness of a private group proposal, the draining of retail revenues and taxes to the burbs and the disproportionate cost to the rest of the community for the growth of unsustainability. And thats a mouthful.... Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Red Arrow on November 24, 2008, 10:41:20 am quote: If you had read what I intended instead of what I wrote, it would be perfectly clear. I started on 11/22/08; 00:45:45 by intending that we didn't see the BIG 200% housing cost bubble because we didn't do the same as some other areas. Limited land availibility in a desirable living area will drive up housing costs. Higher density will mostly be new build, expensive. Some areas (Portland) may not have a lot of expansion choice due to geographic boundaries. I'm sure that some commuters in the Los Angeles area would like to live closer but they cannot find anything they can afford closer. I was in Sunnyvale, CA in the late 1980s on a company trip. As ususal, I drove around to see the area. I came across a place called Los Gatos. Nice enough but the houses all had Lincolns, Caddies, MB, BMW etc. In Tulsa those houses would have had Chevies, Fords, and Dodges. I asked the next day at work and nearly fell down when I heard the "value" of those houses. There is(was?) some limitation on development there due to the hills not really being suitable for development. A trip to Maui, HI in Dec 2004 (I know, another tough trip.) revealed more high costs. Maui does limit development to some areas except for native Hawaiians. You could buy a fine 1200 square ft home in a small community part way up Haleakala (the big extinct volcano) for about $600,000 to $750,000 depending on the view. Limited land availability can drive up housing costs. There were certainly other factors in the 200% bubble. I agree that Tulsa has not had a limited land issue. Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: waterboy on November 24, 2008, 11:39:01 am That's clear enough and quite true.
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 24, 2008, 12:53:10 pm My accountant said that historically real estate in Texas and Oklahoma doesn't appreciate as much as other parts of the country.
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Wilbur on November 24, 2008, 03:15:06 pm According to a buddy of mine in the banking industry (he's an executive VP), many of the banks in Oklahoma did not follow many of the nation's other banks into the risky loan business. He contends BOK probably got into it the most (and, they have many mortgages here), hence some of their problems. But, most of the other banks didn't, thus are on a sound footing.
Title: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Hometown on November 24, 2008, 03:39:41 pm I don't know about OK Banks but according to the Tulsa World 33 percent of the homes in Tulsa were purchased with subprime loans and 44 percent of the homes in Oklahoma were purchased with subprime loans -- even where a standard loan could have been obtained.
Oklahoma No. 2 in pricey mortgages By ROBERT EVATT World Staff Writer 9/6/2006 Oklahoma had the second-highest rate of high-interest mortgages in the nation last year, a recent survey has found. The Consumer Federation of America estimated that 44.3 percent of all mortgages in Oklahoma were "subprime," or at least 3 percent higher than the prime rate. About 18 percent of home mortgages were 5 percent above prime, and 2.6 percent were 7 percent above prime. http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=060906_Bu_E1_Oklah11455 High-cost loans pinch minorities By GINNIE GRAHAM World Staff Writer 8/15/2006 Black homeowners in Tulsa have the 10th highest level of high-cost loan refinancing in the nation, according to a report analyzing data available under the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act. About 33 percent of home purchases in Tulsa, regardless of race or income, are made with a high-cost loan. And Tulsa ranks eighth in the nation for the percentage of high-cost home loans in minority neighborhoods, according to the report. "It was particularly noteworthy that these subprime lenders have an impact on homebuyers of all races in Tulsa," said mayoral aide Dwain Midget. "All races are affected, but it's particularly high among minorities and the poor. I'm not surprised, because that is tactic of unscrupulous lenders." http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=060815_Ne_a1_highcost Title: Re: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Breadburner on May 31, 2018, 08:58:39 pm Some of these post still make me laugh....
Title: Re: Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step Post by: Moderator on June 04, 2018, 07:38:10 am Some of these post still make me laugh.... And that's great, but STOP REVIVING ANCIENT THREADS TO SHARE YOUR RANDOM THOUGHTS. |