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Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: pmcalk on August 05, 2008, 07:23:23 pm Before another topic is completely highjacked, I thought I would start this one. This could have just as easily gone under politics, if the moderators are so inclined to move it.
What are people's thoughts? Should the city stick with a metropolitan planning commission, or move to a city one? What are the pros and cons? Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: booWorld on August 05, 2008, 08:40:10 pm quote: I think Double A did start a topic on this subject in the Politics forum, but anyway, here are a few of my thoughts: First I have to admit that I'm not very informed about the issue. In another thread, you mentioned a state law or laws which regulate how commissioners could be appointed, where they could live, the length of their terms, etc. What is the state law or laws, and what are the parameters? How much discretion would be left to the City? I like the suggestions made by Double A about having geographic representation from the various districts of Tulsa. I think the terms of the commissioners ought to be relatively short. It might be a good idea to have staggered terms so there would be at least some experienced commissioners serving at any time, but I can also see the benefits of having the slate of commissioners wiped clean and completely replaced all at once if the citizens of Tulsa became particularly disgusted with their behavior. Also, it might be a good idea to set a limit on the number of consecutive and/or total terms any single commissioner could serve. I would like to see most of the commissioners elected by district or appointed by the elected official from each district. I don't think the mayor should be appointing all of the commissioners. More importantly, and not get this topic immediately off-track, the City's planning commission should rely on the City's planning department staff, not on INCOG's land planning services. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: booWorld on August 05, 2008, 08:50:13 pm Never mind about the statute, pmcalk. I just now found your reply on another thread...
quote: Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: pmcalk on August 05, 2008, 09:16:41 pm As AA points out in the other thread, Tulsa is a charter city. I simply do not know if that means the city can create it's own structure. I believe that it would depend upon whether the creation of a zoning board was consider a local matter, or a state one. Individual zoning decisions are definitely a local matter, being an exercise of local police power. However, the ability to zone property at all, regardless of any charter, would not be permissible absent a state enabling act. I also believe that it might require a charter amendment, since our charter is silent as to any planning commission.
Sorry--didn't know there was already a thread started. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: Double A on August 06, 2008, 12:31:22 am Remember the F & M Bank controversy (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=051019_Ne_A9_Homeo65927") where the neighbors turned in a valid zoning protest petition only to have a judge throw it out, even though others had previously been validated and enforced and it was an existing state law, ruling that as as a charter city our charter supercedes state law. This led to a charter amendment going on the ballot that was ultimately approved by voters to add a zoning protest petition provision to the charter. (http://"http://www.batesline.com/archives/2004/03/council-to-act.html")
Here's what the Oklahoma Courts of Civil Appeals had to say on the issue of zoning and the charter: The ruling by the Court of Civil Appeals states that the city's zoning authority arises from its charter, which provides for the adoption of a new ordinance by a simple majority of the council. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: pmcalk on August 06, 2008, 10:22:08 am As I said, I am no expert. The fact that the Charter reserves for the city the power to zone may mean you could create the board through a zoning ordinance, as is done with the BOA. But then our charter says that all appointments to ABCs are by the mayor--the charter takes precedence over ordinances. So appointments by the city council would require a change in the charter.
My point was simply that being a charter city doesn't mean that the city automatically trumps the state when it comes to planning and zoning. Like the F&M bank controversy, individual zoning decisions certainly are local matters, and how those decisions are reached are matters of local concern. But, again, the ability to zone at all is provided through the state's enabling act, and if the state revoked its enabling statute, the city would have no authority to zone, regardless of any charter. That doesn't mean that, once given that power, the city cannot dictate how it is used. But even there, the state can sometimes trump the city. Remember when Councilor Mautino wanted to have BOA decisions go to the City Council, before court? You may not agree, but the legal opinion at that time was that state law prohibited that. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: PonderInc on August 06, 2008, 04:18:29 pm I think everyone's hung up on geographical distribution, but that's only a single facet of what's important.
I'm thinking more in terms of representing: architects, landscape designers, neighborhood associations, urban planners, etc. Why not make the appointments reflect these skillsets? You could require geographical distribution, and just get a bunch of developers or commercial property managers on the commission. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: Double A on August 06, 2008, 05:32:06 pm quote: Geographic distribution is the most important important facet for me, so that there is a defined district that a planning commissioner represents and is accountable for. I see only minimal importance in appointments reflecting skillsets, we have competent city planning dept as well as many other resources already in place for commissioners to draw upon for advice and expertise within those skillsets. I share your concerns about appointing a bunch of developers, etc. who monopolize the commission(which is pretty much what we have now with INCOG and the TMAPC), that's why I support making these positions elected. I think it would bring more transparency and accountability to the planning process in Tulsa. Then again, I'm that crazy guy who thinks the finalized version of the Comp plan update should go to a public vote for final approval & adoption. That's just Kraaazzzy! Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: inteller on August 07, 2008, 10:06:12 am quote: no, you can require geographic distribution, and also limit certain backgrounds. Don't sit there and think they have to be mutually exclusive. each nomineee needs to be vetted against a set of pre determined criteria. the extreme lack of common sense, cronyism, and incest on TMAPC (sans Liz Wright) screams the need for this. TMAPC needs to be disbanded, INCOG needs to fade into oblivion, and Tulsa needs to start looking out for itself. The county can keep TMAPC if they want and move them to the fairgrounds, where they can talk about the handful of unincorporated issues that come before the TMAPC. Bixby, BA, et al all have their own planning commissions and look out for themselves. It is time for Tulsa to do the same. We need to have developers coming before a commission with humility and modesty, not the aire of arrogance and presumption that they do now. I can support election of these people, though I would want a vote with no party affiliation....kinda like judges. i could also support appointment from each city councilor if it was divided up by district. This would make the councilor directly responsible for his component on the commission. That way if a councilor ran on a strong neighborhoods platform, then appointed a developer crony, voters could vote him out of office. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: deinstein on August 08, 2008, 11:28:08 pm Absolutely. No question.
Get an urban planning program at OSU-Tulsa while you're at it. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: AVERAGE JOE on August 09, 2008, 11:35:18 am quote: Anything wrong with the one at OU-Tulsa? Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: Double A on August 09, 2008, 08:56:47 pm quote: That's what I was wondering, I coulda sworn they have one.[;)] There's only one problem I see with the current city planning department and that is da Mare has too much influence and authority over them. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: inteller on August 10, 2008, 07:11:28 am quote: all the more reason to go to a city manager form of government. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: Double A on August 17, 2008, 06:11:40 pm City run zoning spawns questions (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080817_16_A14_Frnwiu66784")
A possible third option, the City Attorney's Office says, is a different configuration under the corporate powers enumerated in the city's revised charter. Looks like I was right about the flexibility we have as a charter city Who would staff it? This much is known: Nothing keeps the city from retaining INCOG, which provides planning for all its member cities. Just like I said before It provides the equivalent of 9.5 full-time employees to TMAPC. The Planning Department could also be tapped. What would it cost? There is no simple formula to determine this, but the Planning Commission's fiscal year 2008 budget was $842,316, of which the city paid $384,015 and the county paid $458,301. However, the city and county recoup some of that through application fees, which are split evenly. In 2008, for example, each received $110,312. TMAPC facts Established: 1953 Members: 11 — six appointed by the mayor; three appointed by the County Commission; with two ex-officio members, one appointed by the mayor and one appointed by the County Commission chairman, to represent the city and county. Terms: 3 years Responsibilities: TMAPC issues zoning recommendations. The City Council or the County Commission has the final say on such issues. The Planning Commission also adopts subdivision regulations that are then certified by either the City Council or the County Commission. The Planning Commission is responsible for adopting the city’s Comprehensive Plan, which then needs the approval of the City Council and the County Commission. Current composition: Eight of the nine regular members live in Tulsa. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: deinstein on August 17, 2008, 10:37:15 pm quote: That's a landscape architecture program. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: AVERAGE JOE on August 18, 2008, 12:13:08 pm quote: No, it's not anything of the sort. OU Urban Design Studio (http://"http://tulsagrad.ou.edu/studio") Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: inteller on August 18, 2008, 06:52:40 pm quote: oh, is that the one where they make google sketch up trinkets for class projects? Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: inteller on August 18, 2008, 07:00:58 pm quote: I choose option 3. I think we should cleam out all of the existing positions, make everyone submit a new resume, and hire from scratch. The committee needs to come from each council district, appointed by the councilor of that district and on a staggered term with the councilor. That way, if the appointee does some stupid stuff the people can vote the councilor out in protest. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: Double A on August 19, 2008, 12:20:06 pm Anybody know when the subcommittee to study this issue is meeting or who is serving on the subcommittee?
Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: PonderInc on August 19, 2008, 04:31:48 pm There should be a questionnaire:
1. Have you ever walked on a sidewalk? When? 2. Have you ever used mass transit? When? 3. Define smart lighting. 4. Do you believe that concrete pavers are cool or annoying? 5. Describe the impact of front porches versus 3-car garages on a neighborhood. 6. Do you believe that home owners should be treated as investors and stakeholders in nearby development decisions? Why or why not? 7. What role, if any, should historic preservation play when considering future developments? 8. Do you believe that PUDs are a symptom of a broken planning/zoning process? Why or why not? 9. Do you believe that planning should consider the needs of cars or kids first? Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: inteller on August 19, 2008, 07:24:51 pm quote: it would seem to me that a SUBcommittee would be made up of a subset of the councilors? otherwise it would be a committee. and no we will not be handing out any midtown zealot questionnaire. believe it or not people like to live in neighborhoods that are not made up of 20s craftsman homes. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: USRufnex on August 19, 2008, 07:37:16 pm Ooooh. Cool. A survey?...... kinda like at the mall....
Originally posted by PonderInc There should be a questionnaire: 1. Have you ever walked on a sidewalk? When? Yep. Not lately, since my walks on south Lewis don't involve sidewalks cuz they don't exist here. Previously walked to Reasor's off 41st & Garnett, spoke with a young couple, was told they walk more often since the hubby got a DUI. I like walking along Cherry Street/Brookside/Brady, etc.... 2. Have you ever used mass transit? When? Yes. Took the TulsaTransit bus a few times to Memorial from Garnett, but that's been over a year ago, after having car problems-- now I work till 7pm most nights... also took the bus from Garnett to Pine and to downtown one time. If TulsaTransit had busses that ran until 10 or 11pm on weeknights, or until 1am on Sat/Sun, I'd start taking the bus again (like I used to do in Indianapolis). Previously lived w/o a car in Chicago and Boston. Couldn't live without a car in OKC, Indy or Tulsa... 3. Define smart lighting. Don't know the issues with Acorn, etc..... but am in favor of using bright light in certain dense areas including alleyways to deter crime. Soft light in areas where pedestrians could be walking late at night. No light where it's not wanted or needed, which seems to be many areas of Tulsa after certain hours in the evening. 4. Do you believe that concrete pavers are cool or annoying? They are necessary, especially in downtown these days... [;)].... but can be a force for good rather than evil... http://www.lid-stormwater.net/permcomind_home.htm 5. Describe the impact of front porches versus 3-car garages on a neighborhood. I would rather have 3-car garages in residential neighborhoods with larger homes that lack sidewalks. That way, people can walk on sides of the street w/o having to walk around parked cars. Front porches are nice... also really like it when them foreigners or "Meskins" make a big deal out of a large front porch area, complete with landscaping, rock gardens, etc, etc... combining that with sidewalks makes for a good "neighborhood watch" in higher density residential areas... 6. Do you believe that home owners should be treated as investors and stakeholders in nearby development decisions? Why or why not? Sounds good, especially in historical areas... but I find telling people what kind of windows to put in their own home a bit excessive and think we should extend a reasonable amount of courtesy and creative license to certain developers, though. 7. What role, if any, should historic preservation play when considering future developments? I sometimes resent the shear amount of grants and tax credits available to preserve huge older homes owned by well-to-do yuppies..... but agree with tax credits/grants for preservation of valuable brownstones, unique buildings, etc... case-by-case basis since so many older buildings in Tulsa may cost more to do a gut rehab or maintain than to rebuild, especially if they've been in a state of disrepair for years and years... 8. Do you believe that PUDs are a symptom of a broken planning/zoning process? Why or why not? Yep, but the alternative could be worse.... my head hurts just thinking about it... where's my magical zoning amulet... (http:// http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/City-Councilman-Jump-C.article.jpg) http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39683 "It's wonderful that someone's finally doing something to revitalize this town, even if it is someone who can commune with church gargoyles," said local baker Wendy Kittner, whose business was mystically placed on the National Register Of Historic Places last week despite being housed in a building erected in 1981. "He frightens me, and my concern is that if I defy him, I may be turned to stone." 9. Do you believe that planning should consider the needs of cars or kids first? Loaded question. Akin to: "How often do you beat your wife?" I assume you're talking about development that allows mothers with strollers to not have to dodge mothers-with-kids driving minivans in parking lots. I think the walkable urban option is desirable and curiously missing in most of Tulsa, including midtown. Tulsa needs a mixture of areas that cater to small families, singles, larger families, young couples, empty nesters, etc... -----Do I get a coupon or gift certificate or somthing?.... [:D] Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: pmcalk on August 19, 2008, 09:36:56 pm quote: There are no tax credits available to residential homeowners of historic homes (unless you grant historic preservation easements). If you know of any grants, please post them--I would love to see them. Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: PonderInc on August 20, 2008, 10:57:56 am USRuf - Thank you for completing our survey! You will receive a coupon good for 10 free posts on the TulsaNow forum. Plus one additional bonus post just for reading "The Onion" and including the "zoning amulet" in your reply! [;)]
Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: USRufnex on August 20, 2008, 06:34:37 pm quote: It's been a few years.... the example clearest to my recent memory involves a homeowner at Heritage Hills in OKC... I'll PM you if I find really specific stuff and how it was done... but if I get lazy and google something, I'll post it here... [;)] Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: Chicken Little on August 20, 2008, 07:42:50 pm 1. Have you ever walked on a sidewalk? When? Why, yes. There is a sidewalk about a block from my house. Sometimes we load up the family and drive down to marvel at it. All my friends are jealous...mainly because they can't drive on it.
Title: Should Tulsa have a City Planning Department? Post by: inteller on September 12, 2008, 06:57:31 pm this thread should not have been moved into the planitulsa forum. this decision will be made no matter what happens with the planitulsa joke.
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