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Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: deinstein on July 28, 2008, 08:11:22 pm I think this may be the most heavily biked road in the city, just from my observations.
I feel the obligation to make this road from Denver Ave. (or Riverside through the residential area?) all the way to at least Harvard into a one lane road with turning lanes and two bike lanes on each side. How can we got about this? I need some help, I'm just an overly opinionated college bum here in my 20's. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on July 28, 2008, 08:53:56 pm That's a 4 lane arterial, about 48 feet wide. Adding 2 bike lanes that meet AASHTO standards (6 feet) while maintaining 2 travel lanes and a mid-road turning lane would keep the same overall width.
But it won't happen. Public Works might install sharrows, but I wouldn't expect much more than that. Besides, who wants to ride in a bike ghetto where all the debris accumulates? Tulsa already has some poorly designed, poorly maintained bike lanes. Adding more of them won't be of benefit to cyclists. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: YoungTulsan on July 28, 2008, 08:55:53 pm Would take a lot of paint :D
Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: akupetsky on July 28, 2008, 09:03:57 pm quote: You would need to get to Madison, where you can pick up the trail through Maple Park towards Riverside and 31st. From Madison to Peoria, you can ride on sidewalks that aren't very crowded. Along Cherry Street, not a good option right now because even where there are sidewalks, they are often blocked by temporary construction signs (by Christ the King church) or by the protruding coffee shop with parked motorcycles blocking the way. You can take your chances on the street, but I wouldn't ride there with my children. Go through the Swan Lake residential area and then on the sidewalks between Utica and Lewis. Beyond that,you're on your own. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: deinstein on July 28, 2008, 09:33:06 pm Regarding Cherry Street between Peoria & Utica.
I know the proper buffer is curb parking, but what about biking lanes? Is this considered an adequate buffer as well? I'd be willing to sacrifice turning lanes along this segment for the biking lanes and curb parking on both sides. I'm unsure of the numbers though. Would it be possible to have curb parking, biking lanes and a turning lane? At all? Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: OurTulsa on July 28, 2008, 09:53:21 pm Love the idea! I've been making the suggestion of three lane arterials for many of our under-utilized 4 laners. A redesign of 15th St. such as that which you suggest could really add to Cherry St. while not necessarily restricting traffic flow. Three laning it could provide some sort of landscaped median along the way (picking up some stormwater possibly, creating pedestrian islands, cooling the pavement all while making the street look a little nicer). The resdesign could also allow for better sidewalks and pedestrian connectivity along the corridor and allow for better crosswalks.
I would contact your councilor, Eric Gomez and the Mayor and let them know of the idea. It's not necessarily foriegn, the idea of complete streets has been out there for a little while in Tulsa. My hope is S. Delaware Av. along TU's western edge proves successful. Participate in the Comp. Plan dialog. And if you live in the Cherry St. area, talk to people. Get them enthusiastic about the idea and consider asking them to contact decision makers. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: deinstein on July 28, 2008, 09:55:12 pm My dream start:
Biking lanes on both sides, one way roads with turning lanes would be at these locations: Boston Ave. from the BOk tower to 21st St. 15th St. from Denver Ave. to Harvard Ave. 21st St. from Peoria Ave. to the river...beyond that something should be done all the way to Chandler Park. This is an often traveled route for bikers. Peoria Ave. from as far North as deemed possible. Pine St.? to 41st St. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: deinstein on July 28, 2008, 09:58:38 pm I'm going to try and draft some sort of proposal. I need to figure out how to put this on a computer and give it a visual for everyone? I'm fairly clueless on this.
And TU's system (which is a great, I might add) should go all the way to 15th St. and connect with the other bike lanes. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Double A on July 28, 2008, 11:01:38 pm quote: Ride on the sidewalks if you aren't comfortable riding in the street. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: daniellezm on July 28, 2008, 11:24:36 pm quote: a joke? Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: deinstein on July 28, 2008, 11:44:39 pm quote: [}:)] Nice one, AA. Keep em' coming. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: random on July 29, 2008, 07:57:10 am quote: The thing to do in Tulsa is to take the side roads - the neighborhood streets. However it's impossible to do this around the 15th street area between Delaware and Lewis because of Broken Arrow Expressway cuts through forcing bikers on 15th. I've always thought we should do something about that area for bikes. Personally, I stay off the streets much as possible - too many aggressive auto drivers. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: cannon_fodder on July 29, 2008, 08:26:55 am I love the bike lane idea. But on most midtown streets it just won't happen. 15th with 6 foot lanes would mean that no sane biker would use the lane anyway. 2" between your handle bars and a 45mph car is not safe.
The little part of Delaware from 11th to 4th that has bike lanes is awesome. I hope when they redo more streets (in the near future, right!?!) they include meaningful (use able and safe) bike lanes). If not on the main streets, then at least give designated bike routes like Pittsburgh that go throughout the city (and preferably draw in bike lane on those). and +1 on random. (cue circular discussion on cars being jerks to awesome earth friendly bikers and bikes being jerks to commuters just trying to get home) Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: random on July 29, 2008, 09:19:01 am quote: Point taken. You are so right! Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on July 29, 2008, 10:50:42 am 36th St. from Harvard to Riverside is a good bike route through Midtown. The traffic is light and while there aren't dedicated lanes the lanes are wide enough for cars and bikes and there are bike signs painted on the road. Easy way to get from the Brookside area to the river trail.
Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: PonderInc on July 29, 2008, 10:50:57 am Glad to hear that TU students and younger Tulsans are thinking of solutions and better ideas for Tulsa.
In Portland, OR, bicycle commuting has doubled since 2001. Portland far surpases any other city I can think of as far as being bicycle-friendly and providing bicycle ammenities. Just the other day, there was a story on NPR about the kinds of things they're doing to increase bicycle safety...stuff no other city in America is doing. (They want to be more like Amsterdam for cyclists.) Portland NPR story (http://"http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92836910") And here's a link to Portland's Bicycle Master Plan (http://"http://www.portlandonline.com/TRANSPORTATION/index.cfm?a=71843&c=34812") As far as Tulsa is concerned, I strongly encourage you to get involved in PLANiTULSA, the citywide effort to update the comprehensive plan. http://www.planitulsa.org There will be several opportunities for the community to come and put their thoughts, ideas and dreams on maps of Tulsa...including bike lanes, walkable streets, transit routes, traffic calming tools, etc...in addition to identifying different types of development: village, main street, urban, etc. (The first community workshops will be Sept 22 and 23rd...with several more in the months following.) Sometimes I worry that Tulsa's own bicycle advocates are working against their best interests...because I often hear these gonzo cyclists saying they don't want bike lanes, they just want to "take a lane" in traffic and be treated as a vehicle. This is fine for them...and I think it works on some streets. I personally, would prefer a well designed bike lane or trail, as an alternative to attempting to ride down Harvard, where cars frequently drive 45 MPH. (I'm more of a 15 MPH rider.) Many people would be comfortable riding (and letting their kids ride) in a dedicated bike lane...Which would increase the number of cyclists out on the streets. I agree that Tulsa bike lanes suck. They are just gutters for sand and debris. But that doesn't mean that other cities aren't working to implement better cycling solutions...or that we shouldn't try them ourselves. Also, as for a good east/west corridor, I think that 3rd street from TU to downtown is ripe for bicycling opportunities. Nice and wide, and little traffic. 6th street would connect TU to downtown via the Pearl District, which is another intriguing thought.... And most importantly, we need safe over/under passes so bikes can cross the expressways throughout the city. The highways are like the Berlin wall when you're on two wheels (or on foot). And Tulsa businesses need to offer locker rooms and bike storage so people can commute to work and have a place to shower (or at least change) when they get there. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on July 29, 2008, 11:24:31 am quote: That is a big one right there. Tulsa (or Portland, Denver, etc.) can have all the bike lanes and trails in the world but without a locker room or shower not too many people will bike to work. I know a guy that bikes to his health club downtown in Denver and takes a shower there so maybe the new YMCA will help spur more biking to work out/shower before work. Should the city offer incentives for businesses to provide this?? I think so, especially downtown businesses. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: TURobY on July 29, 2008, 12:35:03 pm quote: Very true. I lucked out, because my company is moving to Mapco Plaza, where they are supposed to have a shower facility. I can just roll out of bed and bike to work, and shower and prepare for my day there. One more month before the move! I can hardly wait... Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: OurTulsa on July 29, 2008, 02:10:09 pm I dream of the day we have one of these: http://www.chicagobikestation.com/index.htm
...at least a mini one down in the Williams Green. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: brhino42 on July 29, 2008, 03:00:24 pm I like to start by asking "What's the problem?" Who here has ridden 15th St? I ride it almost daily. It's 4 lanes. And the further east you go, the less traffic. The only part of it that's even remotely congested is Cherry Street, where the speeds are residential and there's parking on either side--just stay out of the door zone and you're fine.
So is there a problem? Nope. Bike lanes complicate the traffic situation. They don't increase safety. In fact, they decrease safety at intersections. I'd much rather have one of two lanes to myself than an exaggerated gutter stripe. There's plenty of room to change lanes and go around a bicyclist on 15th. Check out Tom Revay's Bike Lane Contrarian site for some eye-opening info: http://tomrevay.tripod.com/projects/MassBike/BikeLanes/ Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: brhino42 on July 29, 2008, 03:08:33 pm TU's bike lanes are an aesthetically pleasing embarrassment. The existing on-street bike route at 3rd St. has plenty of space, a lane to the cyclist going each direction. The rest of Tulsa's on-street bike route system was supposed to be integrated with traffic, not segregated in this illogical fashion.
Delaware was always ugly, but not to cyclists--having a lane to yourself makes for pretty easy riding. Now they've narrowed the whole thing to two lanes and complicated the situation. In fact, cars have to break a state law to pass a cyclist in the bike lane (must give at least 3' when overtaking). The city didn't even follow the recommended guidelines for width or for discontinuing the stripe 100' on either side of an intersection to avoid conflicts with turning traffic. So here's the question: do we follow California and REQUIRE motorists merge into the bike lane before turning or do we follow Oregon and REQUIRE that motorists stay completely out of the bike lane (impossible) until they turn? Four observations: 1) the Oregon system has been dubbed "the suicide slot" for a reason; 2) Oklahomans will rightfully wonder what the use of a bike lane is when cars follow the California system; 3)right now, cyclists enjoy the full benefit of equal protection under the law--do you really want a system that relegates cyclists to the worst part of the roadway and penalizes them for leaving it?; and 4) do you think motorists will understand when cyclists choose not to ride in the bike lane or on non-lined streets? Let's get educated before we start writing up proposals. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: cannon_fodder on July 29, 2008, 03:45:16 pm First, the lanes are plenty wide to allow 3' of clearance. The entire road is 12' wide in either direction. A typical car is 6' wide. If there isn't enough room to pass it's because the biker and/or the motorist is an idiot.
And 100' between intersections with no paint? There would essentially be no paint on that entire stretch of road. Note the pictures below (Portland) have lane markings like a normal road. Seems like expectations are getting a bit high. Bikes simply are not going to get a 6' wide lane in each direction to themselves and then alter all road markings to accommodate. That simply isn't going to happen. If you want bike lanes Delaware is about as good as you will ever get. If you Google "Portland Bikelane" you get hundreds of pictures of ~3' wide bike lanes immediately next to traffic. Much like Delaware. Either Portland is doing it wrong, or expectations in Tulsa are a little higher than there: (http://a4.vox.com/6a00d10a7c21f08bfa00e398b22dd40001-320pi) (http://www.lakesammfriends.org/images/Glisan28thAfter.JPG) (http://www.lakesammfriends.org/images/Front%2BAve%2BBike%2BLanes%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2BBroadway%2BBridge%2B2.jpg) (http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11_26/bleecker.jpg) Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on July 29, 2008, 04:10:43 pm Here's a thought - why don't we get a group of people together on Saturday and ride along 15th Street?
Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: deinstein on July 29, 2008, 04:18:58 pm It's hard for Tulsa to market itself or even compete with cities that perfect when it comes to planning.
And I ride 15th all of the time...and I likely drive 15th more than anyone here due to my job. Traffic would go smoother along Cherry Street with a turning lane, so I don't see how that would complicate traffic. My question is if it's considered a proper buffer like curb parking is? Would Cherry Street be better off with no curb parking, two biking lanes and a turning lane? I'm thinking it would be. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Double A on July 29, 2008, 05:49:03 pm quote: Losing on street parking would mean more parking lots. No thanks. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: tulsa1603 on July 29, 2008, 06:00:21 pm quote: Or worse, declining businesses. There is a positive psychological effect when people can see parking in front of a business - it is about accessibility. Also, it gives the impression that there are people in those businesses. When I drive down 15th between Harvard and Lewis, I don't get that impression. I get the impression of empty and/or abandoned buildings (of course, half probably are). Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: brhino42 on July 29, 2008, 07:02:20 pm Short answer: Portland has got it wrong. Expectations here aren't high at all. My own, which are very basic, might be a little higher: identify real problems, quantify them, analyze the data, determine WHY it's a problem, choose the best intervention for the situation, and implement according to the best design standards available. If you introduce a design that makes things worse instead of better, all that effort is wasted. If doing something makes it worse, at least do nothing. Or do something else. Bicycling and motoring education would eliminate 90% of these complaints about bicycling friendliness. Roadway repair and traffic lights would address most of the rest. Few problems require a facilities construction approach.
Let's try this from a different angle. Look VERY closely at your pictures. Those 3' bike lanes are not at all AASHTO compliant. A traffic lane that turns into a pedestrian-style crosswalk/blue box (problem). And what about right-turning cars?--those are YIELD signs on the right (problem). Door zone bike lanes (serious problem)on both sides of the street. BL's that swerve from curb-side to doorzone/parking. The Laird incident in Cambridge brought this issue to the forefront. Where BL's are put in, on-street parking should be removed. You found lots of pictures, and they make a vivid case against bike lanes. But why? 80% of car-bike collisions happen at intersections. Why? Bike lanes increase car-bike conflict at intersections. Treating bicyclists as pedestrians or creating segregated space adjacent to the roadway (that crosses those intersections) defies the logic of the traffic system and causes more accidents. Let me be clear. I don't want bike lanes anywhere in Tulsa. I hear it often enough: Portland, Portland, Portland. Tulsa must have Portland envy. True, Portland has lots of cyclists. But how did it get them? Bike lanes were built AFTER the surge of cyclists in the 70's, not before. And Portland has an abysmal accident rate for cyclists. As in at least as many fatalities in just one city as we have for our entire state in any given year--sometimes twice as many, and four times more injury collisions--that's Portland compared with Oklahoma, not Tulsa. Poor planning and lack of education is largely to blame. Approximately one in ten accidents in Portland is of the right-hook variety caused by cyclists riding too far to the right (as in a bike lane). If you think Tulsans can't duplicate this behavior, I guarantee we can out-do Portland even there. Where, you might ask? Delaware, Delaware, Delaware. If that's as good as it gets, we REALLY don't need Bike Lanes. And yes, the recommended practice is to remove the stripe 100' before the intersection. All of the lines on Delaware would need to be sanded off to comply with this standard. Width on Delaware? A typical car is 7' wide (mirrors?), up to 8'6" (thanks, SUV drivers), and leaves a shy zone of two feet on its left (which is now a median with a gutter on Delaware). That's 10' 6". The bike lane is built on top of 20" of GUTTER, almost two feet. A cyclist is 2' wide. State law requires 3' passing clearance. Most experienced cyclists know to leave at least 3' on their right in case of trouble (emerging cars, debris, grates, margin of error). Ooops. If you've been doing the math (17'2"), then we ran out of space several feet ago. So, without a trace of IDIOCY in either the driver or the cyclist, Delaware has been reduced from a road with plenty of width for cyclists (the entire right-hand lane) to one that squeezes cyclists into the undesirable real estate of the gutter on the right while requiring the motorist to do likewise on the left. Or impels motorists to break the minimum distance law. And increases the likelihood of the right hook. Oops. Other, more logical proposals were given to the City before construction, but before the public input process, SOMEONE had already made up his mind. If we don't plan to do it right, let's NOT DO IT. And so far, Tulsa is CONFUSED about bicycling. Riding a bike is very simple. Educate the cyclist. Educate the motorist. Same Rights, Same Rules, Same Road. Quote Originally posted by cannon_fodder First, the lanes are plenty wide to allow 3' of clearance. The entire road is 12' wide in either direction. A typical car is 6' wide. If there isn't enough room to pass it's because the biker and/or the motorist is an idiot. And 100' between intersections with no paint? There would essentially be no paint on that entire stretch of road. Note the pictures below (Portland) have lane markings like a normal road. Seems like expectations are getting a bit high. Bikes simply are not going to get a 6' wide lane in each direction to themselves and then alter all road markings to accommodate. That simply isn't going to happen. If you want bike lanes Delaware is about as good as you will ever get. If you Google "Portland Bikelane" you get hundreds of pictures of ~3' wide bike lanes immediately next to traffic. Much like Delaware. Either Portland is doing it wrong, or expectations in Tulsa are a little higher than there: Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Kenosha on July 29, 2008, 09:39:47 pm I totally disagree with brhino.
Just sayin' Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: akupetsky on July 29, 2008, 09:43:07 pm quote: We can't get rid of on-street parking. Although making room for cyclists on Cherry Street would add to the accessibility and business, I'm not sure that you have to do reconstruction to accomplish it. Why not extend the Riverside-Maple Ridge-Maple Park-Peoria bike path along the BA by carving room out of the unnecessarily-wide service road? That would leave cyclists only one street away from Cherry Street. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on July 30, 2008, 07:36:39 am quote: I like this idea. Extending that trail under Cincinnati and through Maple Park and then across 15th and up to 14th (BA Service Rd.) would provide great access to Cherry Street without actually being on 15th and dealing with the traffic and parked cars. A dedicated bike lane on 14th could go all the way to Lewis. Connecting to that trail provides the easiest dedicated bike access to the river. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: cannon_fodder on July 30, 2008, 08:02:06 am So you want roads that are 18' wide in each direction so we can have a 6' bike lane?
The simple answer is: then we won't have bike lanes. Period. There isn't room in midtown to do that without the city buying up acre upon acre of people's lawns to put them in. At $60K an acre, plus the cost of the roadway, it simply isn't going to happen (plus the eminent domain controversy and the expense of moving utilities). No lane lines? First, I don't see how that would be safer - but pretending we have the 6' bike lane on Delaware and wanted to follow that guideline. 11th to 3rd (where the lane runs) is about 3000 feet (.58 miles). There are 8 streets in that distance. 100 feet in either direction from each and more than half of the street is without markings. This would be true of everywhere else in the city. No turning lanes? No lane markings? I don't get it. If you demand no road markings on the approach to every intersection, then bike lanes simply won't happen. I drive on Delaware everyday in my Pathfinder (full size SUV). There is room to pass a parked police car (trust me) on that road. Certainly that is enough room to pass a cyclist in that bike lane (which I can attest to also). I don't get why having nothing is preferable to having something not up to YOUR standards. I guess I don't get what you're saying. You "don't want bike lanes anywhere in Tulsa." Ok. Then what's the problem? I'd love to have routes to be able to bike with my son all over town. Currently we do it just fine by going through neighborhoods and crossing streets as I was taught when I was a kid. I'm not trying to brow beat you, though I understands it seems that way. I just don't get what you want. /ramble Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Kenosha on July 30, 2008, 11:47:52 am If it were up to me...I would take certain Urban Arterials...those narrow ones like Peoria between 6th and 31st and 31st between Lewis and Riverside, and get rid of a travel lane in each direction, add a turn lane in the middle, and bike lanes on either edge...and sidewalks... especially along 31st.
Complete street. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: tulsamatt on July 30, 2008, 12:15:57 pm Here's a video on the Bike Boxes in Portland...
Portland's Green Bike Boxes (http://"http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/portland-green-bike-box/") Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: PonderInc on July 30, 2008, 02:34:47 pm I don't have Portland envy, I have Amsterdam envy!
(http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2007/11/09/amsterdam_bikeparking.jpg) Bicycle parking lot at a train station... (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2010/2354270678_babc4f9ae5.jpg?v=0) Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: OurTulsa on July 30, 2008, 02:57:19 pm YO!!!!
Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on July 30, 2008, 03:48:56 pm Copenhagen and Amsterdam are touted as cycling Meccas, but too many of the details are overlooked in the rosy descriptions. First, gasoline costs at least twice what it does here. People simply do not drive short distances. Also, the cities predate the automobile (at least at the city center) so they were built on a pedestrian scale. People use bicycles for 'fast walking' on relatively short trips. Away from the city center, attitudes toward cycling are more akin to the common belief here that it's too far, too hard, etc. Finally, studies of Copenhagen cyclists reveal that while cycle tracks and bike lanes reduce mid-block crashes, they increase collisions at intersections disproportionately. Also, where cycletracks cross to the right of bus stops, collisions between cyclists and pedestrians increased 1200%.
We can learn much from what's worked and what's failed in other areas, and frankly bike lanes and cycle tracks are failures in that they do not increase cycling safety. They merely provide the illusion of safety. You're asking to spend an enormous amount of public money on what amounts to feel-good measures. That's bad public policy and bad advocacy. Riding a bike in traffic isn't an exercise in white knuckle fear, nor is it solely for the adrenaline junkies among us. It's a skill set that can be learned just as you learned to drive a car. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: deinstein on July 30, 2008, 04:28:01 pm Getting rid of curb parking was a pretty hideous idea...but I was just curious if you could have both on Cherry Street as well?
What about curb parking until the area where there is a small turning lane? That seems like a fair compromise for traffic, parking and biking...no? Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Renaissance on July 30, 2008, 04:59:31 pm Chicago's North Side incorporates bike lanes and street parking at the same time. It's not that hard--the bikes just go around a car that happens to be parallel parking, and watch for doors opening. Next time anybody's there, go check out Clark street between Diversey and Fullerton. Perfect example. I'll try to find pictures.
EDIT: Aha! This blog has great pictures both for how bike lanes can be laid out and how cars get in the way. http://chicago.mybikelane.com/ EDIT 2: This photo is dark but right by where I used to live in Chicago. It shows how you can lay out a street (Halsted, a pretty busy arterial on the northside) so that there are just two lanes of traffic flanked by two bike lanes and then street parking. It works great all over Lincoln Park, Lakeview, etc., and really contributes to the feel of the neighborhood. Would be perfect for Cherry Street. (http://photos.mybikelane.com/5/post/2/main_1671.jpeg) And yes, cars would sometimes block these lanes. But that would be illegal, they'd get ticketed, and cyclists would go around them. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: brhino42 on July 30, 2008, 05:35:47 pm Hi Kenosha,
I ride Peoria and Lewis all the time. The narrowness really works well for cyclists. Take the right-hand lane. Motorists don't want to be over there anyway. Problem solved. If the streets were incomplete, wouldn't we fall of the edge? quote: Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: brhino42 on July 30, 2008, 05:40:25 pm Hi Floyd,
I lived in Austin for 4 years. Cars block the bike lanes everyday everywhere. The city makes a tidy revenue from ticketing, but that doesn't stop the practice. Car-friendly and bike friendly don't have to be opposed, but doorzone bike lanes are a proven hazard...it's the "going around" the parked car that got Dana Laird killed in Cambridge. Just say no to doorzone bike lanes. Cyclists out in the lane away from parked cars have reaction time and distance completely unavailable in a doorzone bike lane. quote: Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: akupetsky on July 30, 2008, 06:55:43 pm quote: The trail is already extended to 14th and Peoria (it actually goes on north over the BA and then northwest into the Centennial Park area). You can just build a spur to go east along 14th. Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on July 30, 2008, 07:18:36 pm I don't see any advantages of eliminating parking along Cherry Street in order to install bike lanes. As it is, narrow lanes are effective in getting motorists to slow down, something that would clearly be beneficial with all the pedestrian traffic. And for a cyclist, it's very easy to stay out of the door zone by riding in the right hand tire track of the traffic lane.
Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: brhino42 on July 31, 2008, 10:39:52 pm Hi cannon_fodder,
We seem to be miscommunicating. I don't want 18' lanes. In fact, I'm having trouble seeing what the agitation for engineering change is all about. Normally marked roadways with 10 to 12' lanes work very well...on multi-lane roads. This trend toward reducing the number of lanes is not actually in the cyclists' interest. We absolutely should not have bike lanes. Period. The people who want them want them for two reasons and two reasons only: because 1) they're afraid of riding in traffic and 2) they want novice riders to feel safer. Both of these need to be addressed by education, not facilities construction. The fear largely arises from motorists approaching from the flank. Every responsible bit of research on the subject says the car-bike rear-end collision is the LEAST common kind of car-bike accident. Much less than for car-car. This isn't a feeling or an opinion. 80% of car-bike collisions happen at intersections, and an even greater percentage happen IN FRONT of the cyclist or from the side. Bike lanes only exist to counter the least common kind of accident and aggravate all other forms. This leads us to the next component of the fear--the idea that cyclists don't really belong out there and that they can't compete with motor traffic. Traffic is primarily a form of cooperation; the system breaks down when competition becomes intense. So drivers may be aggravated, but they know what the rules of the road look like, and that they have the best chance of getting where they're going if they cooperate. Sometimes people will tell stories of how they were hit, and upon further inquiry, it turns out they were curb-hugging, sidewalk-schlepping, wrong-way riding, weaving in and out of parked cars, or disobeying traffic signals. So while it's hard to argue with people's emotions, the actual behavior is the problem. And anyone who has ridden RiverParks knows that trails don't make for better behavior. In cities with bike lanes, cyclist misbehavior continues unabated. The fear is not rational and shouldn't drive transportation policy or design. Cyclist education, not facilities construction, is the answer. I am so confident of this solution, that I have taught hundreds of people to ride in traffic, including my mom and my sister (and beware, wise-crackers, I'm not trying to pare down my family!) Regarding Delaware: a 4-lane solution was presented to the city, which opted instead for 5-lanes in too small a space (we are counting those bike lanes as traffic lanes, right?). One of my buddies watched a Bama semi-truck headed south on Delaware. It was as far left as possible and still ran onto the bike lane stripe. That's a safety issue and an indicator of bad design, especially since facilitating BAMA access on Delaware was major consideration in the road "upgrade." We could have had something just as nice to look at, but safer and more useful, not to mention in keeping with the on-street bike route design adopted by the city for ALL OTHER implementations city-wide starting in 2002. Why this deviation? Politics and money. quote: Title: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: PonderInc on August 03, 2008, 11:12:56 pm Anybody catch this story in the Tulsa World (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=20080803_52_E4_hInter771425") about internet mapping sites offering "best routes" for walking/cycling?
It's based on the premise that the best bike/pedestrian routes are not necessarily the same as the best auto routes. (This is most obvious in the case of pedestrians, who don't care about one-way streets, and both cyclists/pedestrians, who can utilize off-street trails.) Cool idea. Needs lots of local input to work. When I used to bike a lot, I would ride on an arterial street, a bike trail, several secondary streets, a parking lot, and an alley to get to work. Not the typical Mapquest route from Pt A to Pt B...but the one that offered a good mix of safety and efficiency from the cyclist's point of view. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on May 03, 2010, 09:34:22 pm I wanted to revisit this thread. There is room for a bike lane on both sides of 15th from Riverside all the way to at least Utica where businesses have on-street parking and the far right lanes are rarely used. The bike lanes would be placed in those far right lanes next to the 'lane' for parked cars. I didn't think there was room but on closer inspection there is, even with SUV's parked on the street. The city sure isn't going to do this work but if others are interested we could get city approval and do it ourselves. Same for 11th Street in the future, which is set up like 15th.
Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Renaissance on May 04, 2010, 05:11:31 am I'm not an avid cyclist. But I don't know any avid cyclists who like the idea of bike lanes integrated with traffic and parallel parking. Just sayin' . . . but good luck. :)
Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Conan71 on May 04, 2010, 07:54:54 am I wanted to revisit this thread. There is room for a bike lane on both sides of 15th from Riverside all the way to at least Utica where businesses have on-street parking and the far right lanes are rarely used. The bike lanes would be placed in those far right lanes next to the 'lane' for parked cars. I didn't think there was room but on closer inspection there is, even with SUV's parked on the street. The city sure isn't going to do this work but if others are interested we could get city approval and do it ourselves. Same for 11th Street in the future, which is set up like 15th. I'm allergic to opening car doors... Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on May 04, 2010, 08:17:45 am I'm allergic to opening car doors... Just stay out of the door zone :) (http://bostonbiker.org/files/2009/10/doorzonesign-500x431.jpg) Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Townsend on May 04, 2010, 09:02:34 am Just stay out of the door zone :) (http://bostonbiker.org/files/2009/10/doorzonesign-500x431.jpg) Dammit...Kenny Loggins earworm Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: nathanm on May 04, 2010, 04:00:42 pm There is room for a bike lane on both sides of 15th from Riverside all the way to at least Utica where businesses have on-street parking and the far right lanes are rarely used. If the far right lane is already rarely used, it sounds like a great bike lane to me, and drivers will get less confused about the need to occupy the right lane before making a right turn, thus making it safer for cyclists. Bike lanes blow. Either fully separate the bicycles onto trails or leave 'em on the road.I've ridden around some here in midtown since I moved up here a year and a half ago, and have yet to have an issue with drivers not respecting my space when I'm riding on the street (including both 11th and 15th). Similarly, I never had a problem with drivers on Memorial when I had to use the street to cross the Creek. In my experience drivers cause more problems on the side streets where there is a lot of on street parking. They try to force me into the door zone. Me no likey. Just take the lane and you won't have issues. If you crowd the right hand side of the street like you're afraid, not only do you encourage drivers to pass when they really shouldn't, you run a greater risk of hitting debris in the road. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on June 01, 2010, 10:03:47 am Not related to bike lanes but parking along 15th: I noticed on a trip to Genghis Grill that there are NO PARKING signs posted on the north side of the street but meters on the south side starting at Panera. The meters on the north side start at Full Moon just west of Trenton. I wonder why on-street parking would not be allowed from Troost westward on the north side like it is on the south? The only business that doesn't front the street on that stretch is the car wash next to Full Moon, and hopefully that goes away soon.
Genghis Grill and Chipotle both have entrances either facing 15th or to the side, instead of the parking lot which is a good thing and would make sense to have a few spaces available out front along 15th. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: TheTed on June 01, 2010, 11:48:02 am If we ever did get bike lanes, I assume they'd be subpar based on the general quality of street projects and attention paid to non-auto traffic in street design.
Taking the lane is much more preferrable to me. Lots more room to maneuver to avoid homicidal motorists and the constant string of jackholes who wait until arriving at the intersection to consider the fact that they're in the right lane and want to turn left or vice versa. All of the downtown one-ways should have one lane striped as a bike/bus lane. There'd still be plenty of capacity for the cars. And it'd be relatively cheap to accomplish. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on June 01, 2010, 12:28:56 pm If we ever did get bike lanes, I assume they'd be subpar based on the general quality of street projects and attention paid to non-auto traffic in street design. Taking the lane is much more preferrable to me. Lots more room to maneuver to avoid homicidal motorists and the constant string of jackholes who wait until arriving at the intersection to consider the fact that they're in the right lane and want to turn left or vice versa. All of the downtown one-ways should have one lane striped as a bike/bus lane. There'd still be plenty of capacity for the cars. And it'd be relatively cheap to accomplish. Agree, that would be a great improvement. A solid painted line and markings would be fine but to really be effective you would need to place those raised plastic bumpers to keep cars out unless they are turning into a parking spot on the other side. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Conan71 on June 01, 2010, 01:16:41 pm Agree, that would be a great improvement. A solid painted line and markings would be fine but to really be effective you would need to place those raised plastic bumpers to keep cars out unless they are turning into a parking spot on the other side. Horrible hazard to cyclists, just as much as parallel 1/2" pavement cracks and paved drop offs are...trust me you don't want raised plastic bumpers to "protect" cyclists. If a cyclist had to take evasive action and hit one of these plastic curbs, he/she can get launched into traffic, rather than being able to swerve right back in over a line. There's also enough cyclists who ride with their head up their arse who will hit them. Those lines are entirely another hazard when they are wet. Just guessing, but probably less than 5% of the roads I ride on have marked bike lanes and I'm fine with it. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on June 01, 2010, 02:46:02 pm As I've said previously, Tulsa already has some bike lanes. They're crap. It doesn't stand to reason that they'll do a better job designing and maintaining them if there are more lane miles.
But there's a better way: http://commuteorlando.com/education/classes.html (http://commuteorlando.com/education/classes.html) It's an improvement over LAB's program. I'm hoping to get certification to teach it. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Kenosha on June 14, 2010, 02:30:53 pm Here is my contribution to this thread:
(http://postercabaret.com/images/products/display/BikeAA2010.jpg) Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on October 21, 2010, 03:29:43 pm My dream start: Biking lanes on both sides, one way roads with turning lanes would be at these locations: Boston Ave. from the BOk tower to 21st St. 15th St. from Denver Ave. to Harvard Ave. 21st St. from Peoria Ave. to the river...beyond that something should be done all the way to Chandler Park. This is an often traveled route for bikers. Peoria Ave. from as far North as deemed possible. Pine St.? to 41st St. I agree with 15th from Denver to Harvard, with a connection to Delaware where the bike lanes from 3rd to 10th could be extended south to 15th. I doubt there is much traction to get these on arterials such as 21st and Peoria, at least right now. Much better luck with streets like 15th, Utica (from 3rd to 41st), 6th (from Houston to Delaware), Delaware from 11th to 15th, and Boulder from Brady to 18th through downtown. 13th would also make a good bikeway with designated lanes. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Conan71 on October 21, 2010, 03:48:48 pm I agree with 15th from Denver to Harvard, with a connection to Delaware where the bike lanes from 3rd to 10th could be extended south to 15th. I doubt there is much traction to get these on arterials such as 21st and Peoria, at least right now. Much better luck with streets like 15th, Utica (from 3rd to 41st), 6th (from Houston to Delaware), Delaware from 11th to 15th, and Boulder from Brady to 18th through downtown. 13th would also make a good bikeway with designated lanes. I'm not for certain, but I believe 13th Street to Pittsburg or so was part of the original trolley system http://www.batesline.com/archives/2009/12/15/TulsaStreetcars.html http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=http:%2F%2Fwww.batesline.com%2Farchives%2F2009%2F12%2F15%2FTulsaStreetcars.kmz&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.215051,61.171875&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=36.060763,-96.02881&spn=0.23203,0.185925 Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: nathanm on October 21, 2010, 03:57:33 pm I'm not for certain, but I believe 13th Street to Pittsburg or so was part of the original trolley system There's an oddly curved crack across the west lanes of Delaware making it obvious where one of the tracks used to run and that the house on the corner there wasn't built until after the trolley went away.Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on October 21, 2010, 03:59:29 pm I'm not for certain, but I believe 13th Street to Pittsburg or so was part of the original trolley system http://www.batesline.com/archives/2009/12/15/TulsaStreetcars.html http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=http:%2F%2Fwww.batesline.com%2Farchives%2F2009%2F12%2F15%2FTulsaStreetcars.kmz&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.215051,61.171875&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=36.060763,-96.02881&spn=0.23203,0.185925 13th is a great street for biking. Hardly ever busy, 4 lanes, and goes straight into downtown all the way from Lewis. If Starship wasn't in the way and they had a rail crossing it would go all the way to 77th E. Ave. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: nathanm on October 21, 2010, 05:51:14 pm 13th is a great street for biking. Hardly ever busy, 4 lanes, and goes straight into downtown all the way from Lewis. If Starship wasn't in the way and they had a rail crossing it would go all the way to 77th E. Ave. If you're biking, you can ride through the parking lot just to the north of the tracks and across some grass back onto 13th, although there's not much point given how close 12th is. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: SXSW on October 23, 2010, 08:15:20 am If you're biking, you can ride through the parking lot just to the north of the tracks and across some grass back onto 13th, although there's not much point given how close 12th is. I've done that, would be nice to have a paved trail that crosses the tracks there if 13th was designated a bikeway. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Quinton on October 23, 2010, 08:48:47 pm Start paying the same taxes and license as a car would be a start.
Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Hoss on October 23, 2010, 09:17:54 pm Start paying the same taxes and license as a car would be a start. wow, and the kook chimes in... Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on October 23, 2010, 09:35:05 pm Yep, us bicyclists are a bunch of tax evaders. Why, the simple act of riding a bike absolves us of paying income taxes, real estate taxes, and sales taxes - where the bulk of the money for roads comes from - and we simply refuse to pay gas taxes on the gas that we're not using.
As for licensing and insurance, well, we evade them just as successfully. Most of us own cars, but since we ride bikes too, we don't need licenses or insurance. Of course, given the carnage that we cause on our nation's roadways, often amounting to maybe a dozen or pedestrians mowed down each year, it's surprising that the government hasn't cracked down on us. If I recall right, last year motorists killed about 32,000, so it's only fair. Seriously, Quinton, even the slow kids at the back of the classroom know that licensing, registration, and insurance go hand-in-hand with piloting a fast, heavy vehicle due to the potential damage that vehicle can cause. Cyclists and pedestrians aren't subject to those requirements because they can't inflict similar damages. Do try to keep up. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Red Arrow on October 24, 2010, 11:06:57 am Seriously, Quinton, even the slow kids at the back of the classroom know that licensing, registration, and insurance go hand-in-hand with piloting a fast, heavy vehicle due to the potential damage that vehicle can cause. Cyclists and pedestrians aren't subject to those requirements because they can't inflict similar damages. Do try to keep up. No question that a bicyclist ends up on the loosing side of a collision with a fast heavy vehicle. That doesn't mean that a cyclist cannot cause that incident. Most adults are aware of the rules of the road, even if they choose to ignore them when on a bicycle. Requiring young riders to go through some kind of test to verify they can control the bike and know the rules of the road is not such a bad idea. This subject comes up periodically. The town where I was a kid required everyone to get a bicycle license. It was cheap and was not intended to raise revenue. The tags for the bikes were not large. They were numbered sequentially, starting with 1. Most of the kids tried to get the lowest number possible. The township police administered the riding test and asked a few questions. After successfully completing the test, the rider got a new tag, good for a year. Tags could be obtained any time during the year at the police station. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: nathanm on October 24, 2010, 11:07:50 am So am I shirking my duty as a taxpayer because I drive an old car that costs me a grand total of $22 a year to tag?
Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on October 24, 2010, 11:35:33 am So am I shirking my duty as a taxpayer because I drive an old car that costs me a grand total of $22 a year to tag? On one hand, Nathan, you're being selfish and un-American for refusing to support our national infrastructure by paying more in taxes and making regular car payments. Each of us has a patriotic duty to see that large portions of our earned income go toward building more and bigger highways, employing more Americans in their construction, and employing even more providing those automobiles and the services they require. So you have a moral obligation to purchase and drive a behemoth-size motor vehicle, one that uses more gas and oil than most third world countries. Or you could just get one of these: (http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2010/10/flyinghumvee.jpg) Yep, it's the DARPA Flying HumVee, soon to be a status symbol for all those high-achieving but under-endowed folks in dire need of over compensation. Or, as the inestimable Fire Sign Theater guys put it, "Shoes for Industry!" Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Red Arrow on October 24, 2010, 11:49:46 am So am I shirking my duty as a taxpayer because I drive an old car that costs me a grand total of $22 a year to tag? My initial response was going to be yes. Then I thought about the fact that most older cars usually need some kind of repair on a regular basis. So, you are helping keep the automotive repair business in business. That in-turn employs a lot of people, provides sales tax revenue and so on. So on second thought, nope. You cannot escape taxes. You are just paying different ones by driving an older car. ;D Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: nathanm on October 24, 2010, 11:59:06 am Or you could just get one of these: That might actually get me into the new "car" market. ;D Red Arrow: I know an Acura tech who fixes it for me at a very low cost. He needs a source of income his wife doesn't see to pay for his musical equipment and I need cheap repairs. Win-win. 8) Well, in reality he hardly sees any money because the effing thing won't break, mechanically. Seriously, I've had it for 10 years and put a grand total of $3500 into it (not counting fuel, but including the purchase price and scheduled maintenance), mostly in tires. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Red Arrow on October 24, 2010, 12:15:24 pm That might actually get me into the new "car" market. ;D Red Arrow: I know an Acura tech who fixes it for me at a very low cost. He needs a source of income his wife doesn't see to pay for his musical equipment and I need cheap repairs. Win-win. 8) Well, in reality he hardly sees any money because the effing thing won't break, mechanically. Seriously, I've had it for 10 years and put a grand total of $3500 into it (not counting fuel, but including the purchase price and scheduled maintenance), mostly in tires. Looks like you got a keeper. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Red Arrow on October 24, 2010, 12:19:47 pm I found a few of my bicycle tags from long ago. The best I did in getting a low number was 11. One of my friends got 1 at least once, maybe twice. The second white tag was probably my brother's.
Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Red Arrow on October 24, 2010, 12:21:59 pm Well, I got the file size down but need to figure out how to get the resolution down too. (iMac)
Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Red Arrow on October 24, 2010, 12:35:08 pm Yep, us bicyclists are a bunch of tax evaders. Why, the simple act of riding a bike absolves us of paying income taxes, real estate taxes, and sales taxes - where the bulk of the money for roads comes from - and we simply refuse to pay gas taxes on the gas that we're not using. I believe a significant portion of the vehicle registration fee goes toward education. How can you be against education? If tax shirkers like you would pay up, we wouldn't need such draconian measures as SQ 744. ;D Really though, the registration fee obviously does not support the roads to any significant amount. It amounts to permission to use the roads we all fund. Pay up. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: guido911 on October 24, 2010, 12:54:30 pm Quinton's post was a bit harsh, but I agree with what I hope was the message. Someone needs to pay for any bike path--and yes I would be one of them since I am a cyclist.
Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on October 24, 2010, 12:56:10 pm Well, I got the file size down but need to figure out how to get the resolution down too. (iMac) I use the FastStone Photo Resizer, but I don't know if it will work with a Mac. http://www.faststone.org/FSResizerDetail.htm (http://www.faststone.org/FSResizerDetail.htm) Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on October 24, 2010, 01:00:57 pm Quinton's post was a bit harsh, but I agree with what I hope was the message. Someone needs to pay for any bike path--and yes I would be one of them since I am a cyclist. We all pay for them, Guido, whether we use them or not. Otherwise, we'd have people demanding to opt out of paying for sidewalks, public libraries, public schools, or even aircraft carriers. If I don't use it, I shouldn't have to pay for it. I had a relative who took that approach with the local telephone company. It didn't end well for her. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: guido911 on October 24, 2010, 01:54:40 pm We all pay for them, Guido, whether we use them or not. Otherwise, we'd have people demanding to opt out of paying for sidewalks, public libraries, public schools, or even aircraft carriers. If I don't use it, I shouldn't have to pay for it. I had a relative who took that approach with the local telephone company. It didn't end well for her. I get your point; however, in my opinion bike paths are a very unique item limited in use by a certain group of people. Sidewalks, schools, etc. are used by a large majority of people. BUT, in fairness to the issue, I was in San Diego a couple of weeks back and there are bike lanes throughout the city and they seemed to be used by lots of people, so I could very well be off base. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Ed W on October 24, 2010, 02:33:45 pm I get your point; however, in my opinion bike paths are a very unique item limited in use by a certain group of people. Sidewalks, schools, etc. are used by a large majority of people. BUT, in fairness to the issue, I was in San Diego a couple of weeks back and there are bike lanes throughout the city and they seemed to be used by lots of people, so I could very well be off base. By the same token, airports are used by a tiny minority of people, yet we pour public money into them too. I think we lose sight of the idea of something being a 'public good.' I may not benefit directly from an airport subsidy or spending on public schools, but I like having them. I can travel via air transportation or send and receive goods. And it's in my benefit to see that the public school graduate actually knows how to read the instruction manual when it's time to fix the brakes on my car. Like the library, bike facilities are a public good and we may use them or not. I had a co-worker who insisted that libraries were a waste of tax money. "They're only wasted if you don't use them," I said. In that same sense, public parks, linear parks, multi use trails and the like are only wasted if we don't use them. While I'm not a proponent of bike lanes, I do understand their appeal. (They're still the subject of this thread, after all.) I have misgivings about setting aside public space for the exclusive use of one group of road users. And I don't tolerate the fear mongering that some bikeways advocates rely upon. As responsible citizens, we cyclists should insist that public monies spent on our behalf have genuine, measurable safety benefits. Too often, bike facilities and even bike laws are little more than feel good approaches or window dressing. In even more cases, facilities are poorly designed and ill maintained. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: guido911 on October 24, 2010, 02:40:51 pm By the same token, airports are used by a tiny minority of people, yet we pour public money into them too. I think we lose sight of the idea of something being a 'public good.' I may not benefit directly from an airport subsidy or spending on public schools, but I like having them. I can travel via air transportation or send and receive goods. And it's in my benefit to see that the public school graduate actually knows how to read the instruction manual when it's time to fix the brakes on my car. Like the library, bike facilities are a public good and we may use them or not. I had a co-worker who insisted that libraries were a waste of tax money. "They're only wasted if you don't use them," I said. In that same sense, public parks, linear parks, multi use trails and the like are only wasted if we don't use them. While I'm not a proponent of bike lanes, I do understand their appeal. (They're still the subject of this thread, after all.) I have misgivings about setting aside public space for the exclusive use of one group of road users. And I don't tolerate the fear mongering that some bikeways advocates rely upon. As responsible citizens, we cyclists should insist that public monies spent on our behalf have genuine, measurable safety benefits. Too often, bike facilities and even bike laws are little more than feel good approaches or window dressing. In even more cases, facilities are poorly designed and ill maintained. Must.. resist...urge...to...tell...Ed...he...changed...my...mind... Too late. Can't argue with the "public good" issue, because it plainly is. Bike trails could likely attract newcomers to Tulsa as well. But most know me as someone that always worries about paying for non-essential items, especially in today's economic climate. Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Red Arrow on October 24, 2010, 08:29:35 pm Sorry to use this space as a test but I think I found how to reduce the resolution on the pictures in a iMac
Title: Re: How do we go about getting bike lanes for 15th St? Post by: Red Arrow on October 24, 2010, 08:37:37 pm Sorry to use this space as a test but I think I found how to reduce the resolution on the pictures in a iMac It worked. It's part of the export function in iphoto that I had previously not noticed. |