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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: BKDotCom on June 30, 2008, 05:09:21 pm



Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: BKDotCom on June 30, 2008, 05:09:21 pm
what's with these new Spirit Bank convention center ads.     They definitely seem to poo-poo downtown in favor of "southtown"   (111th n Memorial)

Disclaimer:  I work at a competing bank


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: safetyguy on June 30, 2008, 08:16:48 pm
I don't know if it has anything to do with it or its coincidental, but where the Super Target is going is going to be calledSouth Town Market (http://"http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/ProfileSE.aspx?LID=13917362")

I did think the ads were interesting since where the Spirit event center is already called Regal Plaza, so I'm assuming the signage will be changing.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Hoss on June 30, 2008, 09:03:37 pm
quote:
Originally posted by BKDotCom

what's with these new Spirit Bank convention center ads.     They definitely seem to poo-poo downtown in favor of "southtown"   (111th n Memorial)

Disclaimer:  I work at a competing bank



Interesting.  I know that the Tulsa Oilers used to use them; may still use them since there offices were essentially next door.  Wonder what's going to happen now that they will be playing in a building named for a competitor.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: dsjeffries on June 30, 2008, 10:31:07 pm
I heard the radio spot earlier today and was utterly disgusted. "This isn't DOWNTOWN. It's SOUTHtown." Excuse me while I go barf. [xx(][xx(][xx(]

And not because I hate South Tulsa.  It's because the Remys are exploiting suburbanites' fears of anything that doesn't happen in a cul-de-sac.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: MichaelBates on June 30, 2008, 10:57:35 pm
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries

I heard the radio spot earlier today and was utterly disgusted. "This isn't DOWNTOWN. It's SOUTHtown." Excuse me while I go barf. [xx(][xx(][xx(]

And not because I hate South Tulsa.  It's because the Remys are exploiting suburbanites' fears of anything that doesn't happen in a cul-de-sac.



I had to be down south Sunday evening, and I took the opportunity to look around Regal Plaza and the Spirit Bank Events Center. It's not truly urban, but it makes gestures in the right direction. The events center entrance combines brick and glass to be both modern and classic. They appear to have storefronts all along the side that faces the rest of Regal Plaza. Would that all suburban developments were more like it.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: booWorld on July 01, 2008, 06:40:23 am
Perhaps the ads are exploiting suburbanites' fears of wasting time and lots of expensive gasoline driving all the way downtown only to face the frustration of not having the option of parking in multi-level underground garages located directly below their destinations.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 01, 2008, 11:29:17 am
Businesses attempt to make themselves "market-centric"  it's just a general rule of marketing.  Don't get so huffy about it.  It's the game.  The idea is to keep the ball in your control.  

The way to combat this is by capturing the ball yourself, not griping because the other team is working hard too.  

That's poor sportsmanship.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Red Arrow on July 01, 2008, 11:48:47 am
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld

Perhaps the ads are exploiting suburbanites' fears of wasting time and lots of expensive gasoline driving all the way downtown only to face the frustration of not having the option of parking in multi-level underground garages located directly below their destinations.



You forgot the word "free" in front of parking.

All the downtowners have to do is build light rail to access all the suburbs with park-and-ride lots.  We'll stay off your streets and maybe even patronize your businesses.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: sgrizzle on July 01, 2008, 11:52:15 am
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:
Originally posted by booWorld

Perhaps the ads are exploiting suburbanites' fears of wasting time and lots of expensive gasoline driving all the way downtown only to face the frustration of not having the option of parking in multi-level underground garages located directly below their destinations.



You forgot the word "free" in front of parking.

All the downtowners have to do is build light rail to access all the suburbs with park-and-ride lots.  We'll stay off your streets and maybe even patronize your businesses.



Wow! A suburbanite pushing for light rail!


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Double A on July 01, 2008, 12:46:38 pm
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:
Originally posted by booWorld

Perhaps the ads are exploiting suburbanites' fears of wasting time and lots of expensive gasoline driving all the way downtown only to face the frustration of not having the option of parking in multi-level underground garages located directly below their destinations.



You forgot the word "free" in front of parking.

All the downtowners have to do is build light rail to access all the suburbs with park-and-ride lots.  We'll stay off your streets and maybe even patronize your businesses.



Wow! A suburbanite pushing for light rail!



As gas prices continue to climb, I bet that chorus will grow larger and louder.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: PonderInc on July 01, 2008, 04:23:56 pm
I had to help an older lady use one of our "hi-tech" parking meters downtown today.  It WAS sort of confusing, since somebody had peeled all the numbers off the sidewalks (making it hard to identify the parking spot)...and the meter was facing the west (so the glare made it nearly impossible to read the display).

I took the time to help her deduce the parking spot number...explained how to punch the number before putting in her money...and read the almost illegible display out loud to her.

For my help, I was rewarded with the tired mantra: "I just HATE coming downtown!"

(She could have said: "Wow!  People downtown are so friendly and helpful!")

But it seems that kindness is impotent in the battle for hearts and minds when lousy parking meters are present...

(sigh)


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Red Arrow on July 01, 2008, 10:25:12 pm
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:
Originally posted by booWorld

Perhaps the ads are exploiting suburbanites' fears of wasting time and lots of expensive gasoline driving all the way downtown only to face the frustration of not having the option of parking in multi-level underground garages located directly below their destinations.



You forgot the word "free" in front of parking.

All the downtowners have to do is build light rail to access all the suburbs with park-and-ride lots.  We'll stay off your streets and maybe even patronize your businesses.



Wow! A suburbanite pushing for light rail!



I grew up living about 100 yards from a trolley stop (real trolley, steel rails and wheels, electric power) on what is now SEPTA Route 101 in suburban Philadelphia, PA.  That's one reason I object to people calling the rubber tired bus thing, that tries to look like a certain vintage trolley, a trolley.  I know what a real trolley is.  The housing density there was about like some areas of Tulsa (1/4 to 1/3 acre lots, single family houses, some duplexes, and a few apartments with 4 to 6 units) and the trolley was successful as a privately owned company until the late 1960s.  The big difference was/is that most people worked at places along the rail or in Philly, unlike Tulsa where people work all over the place.  The trolley was put in place in the early 1900s. The towns developed along the trolley line and other rail lines in the area. TOD, 100 years ago.  I expect that the people at INCOG and MTTA have already studied the good and bad points about the Phila area transit system.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Hoss on July 01, 2008, 11:06:59 pm
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc

I had to help an older lady use one of our "hi-tech" parking meters downtown today.  It WAS sort of confusing, since somebody had peeled all the numbers off the sidewalks (making it hard to identify the parking spot)...and the meter was facing the west (so the glare made it nearly impossible to read the display).

I took the time to help her deduce the parking spot number...explained how to punch the number before putting in her money...and read the almost illegible display out loud to her.

For my help, I was rewarded with the tired mantra: "I just HATE coming downtown!"

(She could have said: "Wow!  People downtown are so friendly and helpful!")

But it seems that kindness is impotent in the battle for hearts and minds when lousy parking meters are present...

(sigh)



I can empathize with her though, especially if she doesn't come downtown alot (which I don't unless it's hockey season, then I'm down there 32 times at least from late October to mid March).

Like last night, I wanted to take some photos of the arena, and I took my usual route and got off 244 at 1st street, came south on 1st to Cheyenne, turned left, and they had Cheyenne blocked from 2nd to 4th.  Screwed me up.  And of course, with the hellatious one way street nightmare this city's downtown has, I had to track all the way back up to Cincinnati, then down to 6th Street, and back on to Denver so I could park in the Tulsa Builders parking lot just east of the arena.  Usually, my route south on Cheyenne can garner me access to this same parking lot.  I realized that street crews were working on asphalt laying on that section of 3rd Street between Denver and Cheyenne.  Just a pain.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Red Arrow on July 01, 2008, 11:42:01 pm
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc

I had to help an older lady use one of our "hi-tech" parking meters downtown today.  It WAS sort of confusing, since somebody had peeled all the numbers off the sidewalks (making it hard to identify the parking spot)...and the meter was facing the west (so the glare made it nearly impossible to read the display).

I took the time to help her deduce the parking spot number...explained how to punch the number before putting in her money...and read the almost illegible display out loud to her.

For my help, I was rewarded with the tired mantra: "I just HATE coming downtown!"

(She could have said: "Wow!  People downtown are so friendly and helpful!")

But it seems that kindness is impotent in the battle for hearts and minds when lousy parking meters are present...

(sigh)



I believe that most suburbanites don't think that downtown people are unfriendly.  It is the city itself that can be "unfriendly" to an outsider.  Downtown wants to attract business from outside the IDL and immediate surroundings. The only way to get there presently is by car, with some possible exceptions.  Then, when we get to downtown, we are faced with what I call parking extortion.  (During normal business hours.) Parking meters and other paid parking are just one more way to suck money from the wallets of visitors.  Merchants will claim they want the turnover created by the meters. The same could be accomplished by chalk marking the tire treads by a meterperson (used to be metermaid) on the city payroll. The city would be providing a service to the merchants by insuring traffic turnover while not giving the impression to visitors that all the city wants is MORE MONEY. There is already someone patrolling the parking areas or there wouldn't be any parking ticket revenue, (oops, parking enforcement) ANOTHER money grab.

I think that Southroads, Southland, Woodland Hills etc might have had a different story if they had put parking meters in every parking spot. They would have been justified by using downtown logic. That real estate and blacktop certainly weren't free. They may have still been successful as there was plenty of parking available.  People talk about walkable shopping.  Once you get to the shopping center, it is walkable.  Lots of stores all close to each other. You can buy a few arms full of stuff, take it to your car and go back and shop some more. Shopping using any public transportation will limit you to what you can carry or drag in one trip.  There isn't typically enough variety of stores in the malls in my opinion as I like to shop for things other than clothes and chain fast food. I know, typical male over 21.

To try to summarize why suburbanites "hate to go downtown":
It's inconvenient. It's expensive. There are strange new rules to play by.  With a few cultural exceptions (PAC, Old Lady on Brady, soon to be BOK Center and the Ball Park), there really isn't much reason to go except for things like jury duty, paying traffic tickets etc. Not exactly pleasant to most.

I think the city can be successful again by providing goods and services that cannot be supported on every 2nd mile arterial intersection.  (An indication that the suburban density may be more than some would like to admit.) Getting there will need to be convenient and user friendly. Telling a visitor that walking several blocks from a remote parking area is good for the city will not necessarily make the visitor want to do so. Downtown circulator street cars (real trolleys) would help, even more than a bus system.  The marketing  plan for the city will need to be more inviting to suburbanites. We all need to get rid of the them vs. us attitude.

This wound up longer than I anticipated. Hope I didn't bore anyone toooo much.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2008, 06:25:31 am
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow

Quote

I believe that most suburbanites don't think that downtown people are unfriendly.  I



I've never found anyone unfriendly downtown.  I love to go downtown, there just isn't that much draw.  

I know it sounds silly, but as an old marketing guy, I understand the simple draw that downtown (used to have) is lacking.  For the right price i'll tell you.  [:D]

Ok.  For the sake of Tulsa, I'll tell you for free. [:I]  

Where are the hubs of activity in Tulsa?  What do they typically surround?  

Ok, I'll make it easier.  

What turns an average traffic of over 1,000 people every two hours and almost ensures the patronage of the businesses around it?

A good one will rotate 5,000 to 10,000 people every day.  Very simple investment for the city with huge returns in surrounding development.

You guys guess and I'll tell you when you're getting warm.




Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 02, 2008, 07:23:05 am
Your Mama?

Just kidding.

I guess a Wal-Mart.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: TheArtist on July 02, 2008, 07:43:32 am
I think we tend put to much focus or give too much concern to the "suburbanite" and downtown. Would rather worry about the "urbanite" and downtown. Which then points to the obvious... What urbanites? More people living downtown will do much to make downtown a bustling and prosperous place. Urbanites are used to city parking, or simply not using a car at all.



Downtown should....

1.  Be a place to live, work, play and shop for the urbanites and their families.

2.  Be a central business district and possibly central education and medical hub.

3.  Be a central location for city wide and regional; activities, events, attractions, and government.

You need all 3 legs of that stool to be strong, to make a "sturdy" downtown.



Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2008, 07:43:40 am
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Your Mama?

Just kidding.

I guess a Wal-Mart.



No way!  Not even close!  

What do you and your wife, or you and your kids consider a nice evening out.  What activities does that include and where do you go?





Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2008, 08:14:56 am
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

I think we tend put to much focus or give too much concern to the "suburbanite" and downtown. Would rather worry about the "urbanite" and downtown. Which then points to the obvious... What urbanites? More people living downtown will do much to make downtown a bustling and prosperous place. Urbanites are used to city parking, or simply not using a car at all.



Downtown should....

1.  Be a place to live, work, play and shop for the urbanites and their families.

2.  Be a central business district and possibly central education and medical hub.

3.  Be a central location for city wide and regional; activities, events, attractions, and government.

You need all 3 legs of that stool to be strong, to make a "sturdy" downtown.





Dead on!  But you have to have catalysts to make those things happen.

1.  Be a place to live, work, play and shop for the urbanites and their families.

Retail follows population demographic, or destination demographic.


2.  Be a central business district and possibly central education and medical hub.

Business follows access demographic. Parking, delivery, short distance curb to door.  Same with Medical.


3.  Be a central location for city wide and regional; activities, events, attractions, and government.

Two separate concepts.  Government is already there.  Government is opposite in polarity to the other items mentioned.  Events and attractions are a positive influence on population density.  People like to live in popular areas.  As for government, no one really wants to live next to a court house, jail, or city maintenance facility unless they work there or otherwise participate in government.

What are the positive catalysts that influence the popularity of an area?  What common anchors do we see in tulsa that bring energy to otherwise bleak landscapes?



Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 02, 2008, 08:37:56 am
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
What do you and your wife, or you and your kids consider a nice evening out.  What activities does that include and where do you go?


A nice evening out...

Something we can all do together and everyone still has a good time. Something that doesn't cost too much. Somewhere we would see other people we know...

I'm still guessing Wal-Mart.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2008, 08:39:52 am
Ok, here's the deal.  The arena and the ball park are part of what can energize the downtown.  They will create a good tax revenue and stimulate some restaurant and hospitality, but there is a far simpler form of LBE (Location Based Entertainment).

When you analyze LBE modules you look at the same thing a good restaurant owner or retailer looks at.  "How many people can I get to move through my doors, and how much product can I get them to buy?"

If you treat downtown as a simple retail business (a department store), what draw(s) can you create that will bring people all the way into your store on a recurring basis and cause them to spend money in the surrounding departments?  How can you make them regular customers?  What will cause them to return frequently to the same venue for the same product?

What is the first thing that a Shopping Mall Developer does?
What is the secret weapon of the smart retail developer?



Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: jackbristow on July 02, 2008, 10:24:22 am
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar

Ok, here's the deal.  The arena and the ball park are part of what can energize the downtown.  They will create a good tax revenue and stimulate some restaurant and hospitality, but there is a far simpler form of LBE (Location Based Entertainment).

When you analyze LBE modules you look at the same thing a good restaurant owner or retailer looks at.  "How many people can I get to move through my doors, and how much product can I get them to buy?"

If you treat downtown as a simple retail business (a department store), what draw(s) can you create that will bring people all the way into your store on a recurring basis and cause them to spend money in the surrounding departments?  How can you make them regular customers?  What will cause them to return frequently to the same venue for the same product?

What is the first thing that a Shopping Mall Developer does?
What is the secret weapon of the smart retail developer?





Entertainment?  Ice Cream?


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: BKDotCom on July 02, 2008, 11:25:26 am
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
What is the first thing that a Shopping Mall Developer does?
What is the secret weapon of the smart retail developer?
┐Shoe Carnival & Kohls?


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 02, 2008, 11:34:58 am
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
What is the secret weapon of the smart retail developer?


Shopping bags with their name on them?


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Red Arrow on July 02, 2008, 11:43:10 am
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar


What is the secret weapon of the smart retail developer?



Restrooms.  Clean, heated and airconditioned restrooms.  No pay toilets please.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gold on July 02, 2008, 11:43:19 am
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar



What is the first thing that a Shopping Mall Developer does?
What is the secret weapon of the smart retail developer?





Look for what will create the post urban sprawl?
Make sure all roads within a mile radius are in need of expansion?


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: RecycleMichael on July 02, 2008, 12:05:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
What is the first thing that a Shopping Mall Developer does?



Pay off the concrete mafia?


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2008, 12:21:15 pm
Enough toying around.

A cinema complex is the essential element and catalyst for massive development at a minimal expense.

The standard 20 screen super cinema will rotate huge amounts of traffic on a daily basis, and typically this type of LBE stimulates restaurant and retail growth.  

A concept design for a super cinema with covered parking below could generate traffic and economic growth for a relatively inexpensive price.  

The city owns parcels of land downtown that they are trying to liquidate.  If they were to invite developers with the appropriate experience it would get the ball rolling.

The initial demographic would be a "destination demographic" that would stimulate restaurant traffic and build retail.

This is not a new idea.  It's an old formula that is put to use every day by developers all over the country.  A theater is considered a "market" anchor because it has the ability to simulate more than one form of economic development.

When a theater goes in (Dickenson on 101st for example) within a very short period of time the total demographic of the area changes and businesses sprout up around it.  The growth ring starts with restaurant and retail expands to office and service, and finishes with residential.

It's very hard to Poo Poo the super cinema as an anchor for economic development though I'm sure some will.  There are far to many case studies for success.  The obstacle is the parking.  We have discussed concepts for "underground" or raised ground dedicated parking before.  This is the element that the city would need to provide development assistance on.  I think that's a relatively small obstacle for an urban area hungry for growth.

+tax revenue
+retail growth
+after hours traffic
+restaurant growth (dinner and a movie always!)

When compared with an arena or ball field that move populations into the area once or twice a week (not that I have anything against those forms of LBE), the anchor cinema will start to actually shift population growth every day.

The actual demographic is extremely diverse too with wide age and income bands.

Lets look at the math (gross numbers):
If you have a 20 screen cinema (80 seats each) and you only fill half capacity for only 4 show-times, you generate approximately $28,000 a day.

If only half of those patrons go for a meal or drinks you generate an additional $30,000 a day.

That's a conservative $21,000,000 a year in taxable revenue, not taking into account any retail sales or any residential development/sales.  A more robust attendance estimate would be in the $50,000,000 range.  If you were to throw in some retail you could be in the $100 million dollar range very quickly.

You don't have to drive very far in Tulsa and the surrounding area to see this formula at work.  The only obstacle is the parking.





Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2008, 12:24:33 pm
You can almost double that number if they buy a bag of popcorn! [}:)]


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: sgrizzle on July 02, 2008, 12:56:07 pm
I'm ready for a downtown theater. Especially if it's one like cinemark with some regular food.

Now THAT is a good lunch break.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 02, 2008, 02:08:16 pm
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

I'm ready for a downtown theater. Especially if it's one like cinemark with some regular food.

Now THAT is a good lunch break.



I've been to theaters in other parts of the country that serve GOOD food and beer.

They even have intermissions so that people can return the beer!



Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: TulsaPride on July 02, 2008, 03:00:33 pm
What we need is an "Alamo Drafthouse" in our downtown. They have a pretty good menu and people seem to love these places.

http://www.drafthouse.com/


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: TheArtist on July 02, 2008, 05:23:26 pm
I like the idea of a Movie Theater downtown,,, I still also like my idea of a small, "trendy" bowling alley/martini lounge type place.

I like going downtown and taking visitors there or going on a date downtown. But it would be nice to have something else to do other than eat or clubbing. You cant do just that for a whole evening or day. And you kind of have to plan ahead for PAC events and such. Would be nice to be able to spend half a day downtown doing different things. Go downtown, park once or take mass transit, then a day and evenings worth of stuff all within walking distance. Would be reeeally nice.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: inteller on July 02, 2008, 06:24:27 pm
Between Regal Plaza and Memorial Commons, I'd say that that part of town is going to be pretty happening.....except for the fact that 101st and Mem is a congested nightmare that is only going to get worse without widening.  It is projected to surpass even the worst spots along 71st in terms of traffic.  A clear failure in planning. (I'm looking at YOU INCOG)


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: joiei on July 02, 2008, 06:44:33 pm
quote:
Originally posted by inteller

Between Regal Plaza and Memorial Commons, I'd say that that part of town is going to be pretty happening.....except for the fact that 101st and Mem is a congested nightmare that is only going to get worse without widening.  It is projected to surpass even the worst spots along 71st in terms of traffic.  A clear failure in planning. (I'm looking at YOU INCOG)

And I pretty much avoid going to that part of Memorial if at all possible because of the traffic nightmare.  

Now a movie palace downtown,  for some perspectives, downtown Ft Worth has 2 movie complexes and they are busy.  Oldtown Wichita has a multiplex.  How much do these theaters contribute to the life of downtown?


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: inteller on July 02, 2008, 07:10:53 pm
quote:
Originally posted by joiei

quote:
Originally posted by inteller

Between Regal Plaza and Memorial Commons, I'd say that that part of town is going to be pretty happening.....except for the fact that 101st and Mem is a congested nightmare that is only going to get worse without widening.  It is projected to surpass even the worst spots along 71st in terms of traffic.  A clear failure in planning. (I'm looking at YOU INCOG)

And I pretty much avoid going to that part of Memorial if at all possible because of the traffic nightmare.  

Now a movie palace downtown,  for some perspectives, downtown Ft Worth has 2 movie complexes and they are busy.  Oldtown Wichita has a multiplex.  How much do these theaters contribute to the life of downtown?



Tulsa has a movie theater downtown....they just don't show anything you'd want to watch [}:)]


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: sgrizzle on July 02, 2008, 09:07:07 pm
quote:
Originally posted by inteller


Tulsa has a movie theater downtown....they just don't show anything you'd want to watch [}:)]



Thanks for reminding us...

As Gaspar stated, it is a rel boon for development. With a theater, everyone spends about 3 hours so you are guaranteed they will be looking for a meal either before or after. I personally have been frustrated with the fact that if you go into a 7pm movie you come out to find the sun down and the city turned off. Late night dining, shopping and places like bars and cosmos would get business from movie patrons and since movie times are staggered there would always be people on their way into or out of the theater. I would think 8-10 screens would work well. You could even build a fairly streamlined theater like riverwalk and you would have hundreds of people moving through with only a handful of employees. Put it in a old-looking building with an old style theater marquee and the look would be complete.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: TheArtist on July 03, 2008, 06:51:05 am
A friend went to OKC to the new Warren Theater in Moore. Raved about it and wished there were something like it here. Said it had an art deco theme. Old timey curtains that pulled back, balconies, a bar and lounge, etc.  That would be perfect for downtown Tulsa. Perhaps someone should contact them and mention our new ballpark and arena. Get downtown on their radar.



http://www.warrentheatres.com/moorebalcony.asp





Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: waterboy on July 03, 2008, 07:23:05 am
From my experience the very first thing developers do after purchasing land is tear out all the trees and flatten the landscape (happening right now at 101 & memorial and 106th). That's already done downtown so they should feel comfortable.

What you are describing is the old Williams Center Forum with multiple screens. It was popular, had convenient adjacent parking and multiple floors of retail and restaurants surrounding an ice skating rink. It was cool and novel for the times. Different times I know and downtown was still filled with Williams employees but still.....

Dickinson theaters was alone for years out on Memorial. Years. Regal Plaza was only recently developed and more because Bixby and that area of Tulsa is growing so fast, NOT because of the theater. Someone has to offer a counter view of reality, go ahead and blast me, but it seems simplistic to think that multi screen movie theaters are the catalyst for development. They are part of the recipe but not the yeast.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 03, 2008, 07:30:57 am
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

A friend went to OKC to the new Warren Theater in Moore. Raved about it and wished there were something like it here. Said it had an art deco theme. Old timey curtains that pulled back, balconies, a bar and lounge, etc.  That would be perfect for downtown Tulsa. Perhaps someone should contact them and mention our new ballpark and arena. Get downtown on their radar.



http://www.warrentheatres.com/moorebalcony.asp







Bingo!  Been there.  It's awesome.  Reminds me of some of the old revived theaters in St. Louis.



Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 03, 2008, 07:46:32 am
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

From my experience the very first thing developers do after purchasing land is tear out all the trees and flatten the landscape (happening right now at 101 & memorial and 106th). That's already done downtown so they should feel comfortable.

What you are describing is the old Williams Center Forum with multiple screens. It was popular, had convenient adjacent parking and multiple floors of retail and restaurants surrounding an ice skating rink. It was cool and novel for the times. Different times I know and downtown was still filled with Williams employees but still.....

Dickinson theaters was alone for years out on Memorial. Years. Regal Plaza was only recently developed and more because Bixby and that area of Tulsa is growing so fast, NOT because of the theater. Someone has to offer a counter view of reality, go ahead and blast me, but it seems simplistic to think that multi screen movie theaters are the catalyst for development. They are part of the recipe but not the yeast.



I hate it when they tear out the trees!  But unfortunately it's necessary now, not because of the developer, but because of government regulations that require larger detention/retention and grading to make the drainage plan work.

Developers would love to not have the extra expense of removing all of the trees but in most cases they have to. Even in cases where some trees can be saved the surrounding grading and weight of the construction equipment destroys the roots and the trees die or become diseased.

Every time we submit an earth change and put a building and parking lot in the slope and contour of the lot has to be changed to satisfy drainage requirements.  This is very important for safety and for the environment as a whole, but until the local government is willing to adopt some of the new practices, such as bioswails, and other more environmental options we are stuck with clearing the land.

(http://www.ia.nrcs.usda.gov/news/images/Pics/BioswaleSmall.jpg)

We try to save as many trees as possible and our landscape architects work to create plans and documents that guide the earth work company as to how and where to park, or run equipment so as not to kill the remaining trees, but more often than not the trees have to go to fulfill the local requirements.


Your other point:
I remember the old Williams theater.  Great memories! When I was a kid growing up in way way South Tulsa, my family used to go see a movie there every weekend.  It was a treat to go down town!

When it closed, I didn't go down town for years except to pay a ticket or two.  I would be very interested to see the effect of closing that theater on the surrounding economy.  Would be a good case study.





Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 03, 2008, 07:50:30 am
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy


Dickinson theaters was alone for years out on Memorial. Years. Regal Plaza was only recently developed and more because Bixby and that area of Tulsa is growing so fast, NOT because of the theater. Someone has to offer a counter view of reality, go ahead and blast me, but it seems simplistic to think that multi screen movie theaters are the catalyst for development. They are part of the recipe but not the yeast.



Dickenson was alone for exactly as long as it took to develop a huge retail complex.  

You should have seen the fight for development behind that one. Wow! There is now more fights for the surrounding land for office.  Stay tuned!





Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: sgrizzle on July 03, 2008, 08:22:40 am
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy


Dickinson theaters was alone for years out on Memorial. Years. Regal Plaza was only recently developed and more because Bixby and that area of Tulsa is growing so fast, NOT because of the theater. Someone has to offer a counter view of reality, go ahead and blast me, but it seems simplistic to think that multi screen movie theaters are the catalyst for development. They are part of the recipe but not the yeast.



To be the catalyst for a development there has to be a development. I know you know chemistry and know by definition that a catalyst doesn't create a chemical reaction by itself. What gaspar and others are saying is that if you are putting a development in you need a theater to "spark it" to life.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: waterboy on July 03, 2008, 08:52:04 am
Well said, both of you. I know the trees have to go and landscaping done, just noting regrettably one of the first steps.

The elements have to be in place for a catalyst to work. However, many successful developments do not include multi screen theaters. So, if the elements are in place without the catalyst and it is still successful, it follows that a catalyst is not always necessary. Utica Square, Brookside, Cherry Street, Tulsa Hills, Riverwalk (the theater came later).

The most important element is the surrounding demos isn't it? Utica Square worked because it sat in a dense, wealthy demo and it didn't hurt that a hospital and fast growing Brookside was nearby. Same with the other trendy midtown shopping areas. Meanwhile, Whittier square which had density, a theatre, and diversity...floundered.

I could make the same argument about grocery stores that is being made about theatres. When the density and favorable demographic of downtown faded along with the evacuation of oil companies, Williams Center forum and its theater evaporated as well.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: sgrizzle on July 03, 2008, 09:05:11 am
I seem to remember a theater right in the middle of brookside...


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: swake on July 03, 2008, 09:26:09 am
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle

I seem to remember a theater right in the middle of brookside...



There was a theater on Cherry Street as well.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 03, 2008, 09:32:35 am
Riverwalk didn't explode until the theater opened.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: azbadpuppy on July 03, 2008, 12:22:37 pm
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

From my experience the very first thing developers do after purchasing land is tear out all the trees and flatten the landscape (happening right now at 101 & memorial and 106th). That's already done downtown so they should feel comfortable.

What you are describing is the old Williams Center Forum with multiple screens. It was popular, had convenient adjacent parking and multiple floors of retail and restaurants surrounding an ice skating rink. It was cool and novel for the times. Different times I know and downtown was still filled with Williams employees but still.....

Dickinson theaters was alone for years out on Memorial. Years. Regal Plaza was only recently developed and more because Bixby and that area of Tulsa is growing so fast, NOT because of the theater. Someone has to offer a counter view of reality, go ahead and blast me, but it seems simplistic to think that multi screen movie theaters are the catalyst for development. They are part of the recipe but not the yeast.



I have to agree with you that theaters are not a catalyst. IMO, the answer to successful downtown development actually lies in its parking and transit situations, not large multiscreen movie theaters- those only really do well where large numbers of people live anyway. Why would a large number of Tulsans drive downtown specifically to see a movie when the same movies are playing all over town at a theater close to home? The Forum already failed downtown, and another good example is the failure of the Arizona Center and Mercado shopping centers in downtown Phoenix- very similar projects to the Forum in Tulsa, but outdoors.

For an example of a successful downtown miltiplex theater look to Denver. The pavillions is adjacent to the 16th street mall, which has dozens of restaurants, shops, bars, hotels, etc. The mall was there long before the theater- but Denver also has an estimated 70,000 people living in its downtown.

The biggest mistake Phoenix, Tulsa, and many other downtowns have made is supplying too much parking in their downtowns. Parking only creates a bubble environment, in which people drive in, park, go straight into their destinations, then run back to their car and leave straight afterwards. There is no foot traffic, no patronizing the smaller businesses downtown, no street life at all. Phoenix has literally spent billions trying to revitalize their downtown, and along with a new ballpark, new arena, new shopping malls, parks, plazas, etc etc they built massive parking structures all over DT. The result? Downtown is still pretty much a ghost town. There is still no grocery store(!) or any significant retail at all. It is slowly improving, but I believe it won't really get any better until ASU opens their downtown campus with 15,000 students,(most living DT without cars) and the opening of the light rail.

Denver, however, did not build a lot of new parking to go along with all of the massive development in their revitalized downtown areas (specifically LODO). The result? A thriving pedestrian oriented 24 hour downtown. People are basically forced to take public transit to ball games, shopping, etc. Parking is so difficult in downtown Denver, suburbanites will actually take the train/bus to events. This totally encourages them to stroll and linger DT and actually patronize the other businesses. Something like 90 bars/restaurants sprung up around Coors field after it opened because of all the foot traffic around it. Granted, Denver has a light rail and very good transit system, but Tulsa needs to do something similar if Downtown is to ever become a true 'destination'.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: Gaspar on July 03, 2008, 01:00:41 pm
quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy


I have to agree with you that theaters are not a catalyst. IMO, the answer to successful downtown development actually lies in its parking and transit situations, not large multiscreen movie theaters- those only really do well where large numbers of people live anyway. Why would a large number of Tulsans drive downtown specifically to see a movie when the same movies are playing all over town at a theater close to home? The Forum already failed downtown, and another good example is the failure of the Arizona Center and Mercado shopping centers in downtown Phoenix- very similar projects to the Forum in Tulsa, but outdoors.

For an example of a successful downtown miltiplex theater look to Denver. The pavillions is adjacent to the 16th street mall, which has dozens of restaurants, shops, bars, hotels, etc. The mall was there long before the theater- but Denver also has an estimated 70,000 people living in its downtown.

The biggest mistake Phoenix, Tulsa, and many other downtowns have made is supplying too much parking in their downtowns. Parking only creates a bubble environment, in which people drive in, park, go straight into their destinations, then run back to their car and leave straight afterwards. There is no foot traffic, no patronizing the smaller businesses downtown, no street life at all. Phoenix has literally spent billions trying to revitalize their downtown, and along with a new ballpark, new arena, new shopping malls, parks, plazas, etc etc they built massive parking structures all over DT. The result? Downtown is still pretty much a ghost town. There is still no grocery store(!) or any significant retail at all. It is slowly improving, but I believe it won't really get any better until ASU opens their downtown campus with 15,000 students,(most living DT without cars) and the opening of the light rail.

Denver, however, did not build a lot of new parking to go along with all of the massive development in their revitalized downtown areas (specifically LODO). The result? A thriving pedestrian oriented 24 hour downtown. People are basically forced to take public transit to ball games, shopping, etc. Parking is so difficult in downtown Denver, suburbanites will actually take the train/bus to events. This totally encourages them to stroll and linger DT and actually patronize the other businesses. Something like 90 bars/restaurants sprung up around Coors field after it opened because of all the foot traffic around it. Granted, Denver has a light rail and very good transit system, but Tulsa needs to do something similar if Downtown is to ever become a true 'destination'.




Pup,
Forum didn't fail.  It was closed to make room for the new trading facility.

You have good points.  But you can't force a vehicle society like Tulsa to change.  That takes decades of increased population density.

The occasional ball game or concert will only make downtown an occasional destination.  The idea behind successful LBE is regular and recurring traffic.

As kids my friends and I would venture to the Forum every weekend to see movies and walk around down town even though Woodland Hills and Southroads were right down the road.  Being in downtown was just cool!  

People don't just go to a movie.  They go "out".  Driving to Dickenson for some good food at Michael Vs and then seeing a movie sounds like a good evening, but if the wife and I can go downtown for a nice dinner, movie, the lights of the city, drinks, a stroll, and some shopping, that's a date!  That would become a regular activity.  

You're right about a "bubble destination" I can get downtown from 91st street in 10 minutes or less.  As long as I can do that, it will be hard to pressure me to take public transportation.  So rather than force changes on people, why not take advantage of the fact that Tulsa is easy to get around, and capture that traffic for a longer duration of time by offering a myriad of activities tied to a centralized location?
 
This will actually cause the density necessary to reduce parking and encourage more public transportation options as you propose.  With the density will also come the market to support the secondary retail/grocery/and service industries.




Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: TheArtist on July 03, 2008, 01:10:27 pm
quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

From my experience the very first thing developers do after purchasing land is tear out all the trees and flatten the landscape (happening right now at 101 & memorial and 106th). That's already done downtown so they should feel comfortable.

What you are describing is the old Williams Center Forum with multiple screens. It was popular, had convenient adjacent parking and multiple floors of retail and restaurants surrounding an ice skating rink. It was cool and novel for the times. Different times I know and downtown was still filled with Williams employees but still.....

Dickinson theaters was alone for years out on Memorial. Years. Regal Plaza was only recently developed and more because Bixby and that area of Tulsa is growing so fast, NOT because of the theater. Someone has to offer a counter view of reality, go ahead and blast me, but it seems simplistic to think that multi screen movie theaters are the catalyst for development. They are part of the recipe but not the yeast.



I have to agree with you that theaters are not a catalyst. IMO, the answer to successful downtown development actually lies in its parking and transit situations, not large multiscreen movie theaters- those only really do well where large numbers of people live anyway. Why would a large number of Tulsans drive downtown specifically to see a movie when the same movies are playing all over town at a theater close to home? The Forum already failed downtown, and another good example is the failure of the Arizona Center and Mercado shopping centers in downtown Phoenix- very similar projects to the Forum in Tulsa, but outdoors.

For an example of a successful downtown miltiplex theater look to Denver. The pavillions is adjacent to the 16th street mall, which has dozens of restaurants, shops, bars, hotels, etc. The mall was there long before the theater- but Denver also has an estimated 70,000 people living in its downtown.

The biggest mistake Phoenix, Tulsa, and many other downtowns have made is supplying too much parking in their downtowns. Parking only creates a bubble environment, in which people drive in, park, go straight into their destinations, then run back to their car and leave straight afterwards. There is no foot traffic, no patronizing the smaller businesses downtown, no street life at all. Phoenix has literally spent billions trying to revitalize their downtown, and along with a new ballpark, new arena, new shopping malls, parks, plazas, etc etc they built massive parking structures all over DT. The result? Downtown is still pretty much a ghost town. There is still no grocery store(!) or any significant retail at all. It is slowly improving, but I believe it won't really get any better until ASU opens their downtown campus with 15,000 students,(most living DT without cars) and the opening of the light rail.

Denver, however, did not build a lot of new parking to go along with all of the massive development in their revitalized downtown areas (specifically LODO). The result? A thriving pedestrian oriented 24 hour downtown. People are basically forced to take public transit to ball games, shopping, etc. Parking is so difficult in downtown Denver, suburbanites will actually take the train/bus to events. This totally encourages them to stroll and linger DT and actually patronize the other businesses. Something like 90 bars/restaurants sprung up around Coors field after it opened because of all the foot traffic around it. Granted, Denver has a light rail and very good transit system, but Tulsa needs to do something similar if Downtown is to ever become a true 'destination'.




Very good points indeed. We do need more people living downtown and I agree with the parking thing. Best scenario for any new parking downtown is that it be part of a mixed use development, shops and living wrapped around parking.  

I go back to my 3 legs of the stool analogy. One leg is living, the other entertainment/shopping, the other business, gov. and college. You need to push for all 3 and not get too focused on just one.

I think downtown as an entertainment type destination having a theater would help round out the options there. Why would you go downtown to a theater if you could go anywhere else? I would go because there would be other things to do before and after. I already go downtown to eat a lot. I could go many other places but I like going downtown. Would be nice imo to go to a movie before or after I eat versus going to a movie in one part of town then driving all the way downtown to eat. The ol "dinner and a movie" thing. Also, one would hope and expect that any theater downtown would not be just an average theater, that it would be an attraction itself. Something different, special and unique.

 I also like going out to the clubs and coffe shops downtown. Again, would be nice to have other options to do as well while I am there. I think a small theater would work downtown. Yes we need more living, yes the colleges should be expanded, etc. I think we are moving along on all fronts. Couple more years and downtown will feel like quite a different place than it does now. Perhaps then is when we will see a movie theater coming in down there.



Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: azbadpuppy on July 03, 2008, 01:54:39 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy


I have to agree with you that theaters are not a catalyst. IMO, the answer to successful downtown development actually lies in its parking and transit situations, not large multiscreen movie theaters- those only really do well where large numbers of people live anyway. Why would a large number of Tulsans drive downtown specifically to see a movie when the same movies are playing all over town at a theater close to home? The Forum already failed downtown, and another good example is the failure of the Arizona Center and Mercado shopping centers in downtown Phoenix- very similar projects to the Forum in Tulsa, but outdoors.

For an example of a successful downtown miltiplex theater look to Denver. The pavillions is adjacent to the 16th street mall, which has dozens of restaurants, shops, bars, hotels, etc. The mall was there long before the theater- but Denver also has an estimated 70,000 people living in its downtown.

The biggest mistake Phoenix, Tulsa, and many other downtowns have made is supplying too much parking in their downtowns. Parking only creates a bubble environment, in which people drive in, park, go straight into their destinations, then run back to their car and leave straight afterwards. There is no foot traffic, no patronizing the smaller businesses downtown, no street life at all. Phoenix has literally spent billions trying to revitalize their downtown, and along with a new ballpark, new arena, new shopping malls, parks, plazas, etc etc they built massive parking structures all over DT. The result? Downtown is still pretty much a ghost town. There is still no grocery store(!) or any significant retail at all. It is slowly improving, but I believe it won't really get any better until ASU opens their downtown campus with 15,000 students,(most living DT without cars) and the opening of the light rail.

Denver, however, did not build a lot of new parking to go along with all of the massive development in their revitalized downtown areas (specifically LODO). The result? A thriving pedestrian oriented 24 hour downtown. People are basically forced to take public transit to ball games, shopping, etc. Parking is so difficult in downtown Denver, suburbanites will actually take the train/bus to events. This totally encourages them to stroll and linger DT and actually patronize the other businesses. Something like 90 bars/restaurants sprung up around Coors field after it opened because of all the foot traffic around it. Granted, Denver has a light rail and very good transit system, but Tulsa needs to do something similar if Downtown is to ever become a true 'destination'.




Pup,
Forum didn't fail.  It was closed to make room for the new trading facility.

You have good points.  But you can't force a vehicle society like Tulsa to change.  That takes decades of increased population density.

The occasional ball game or concert will only make downtown an occasional destination.  The idea behind successful LBE is regular and recurring traffic.

As kids my friends and I would venture to the Forum every weekend to see movies and walk around down town even though Woodland Hills and Southroads were right down the road.  Being in downtown was just cool!  

People don't just go to a movie.  They go "out".  Driving to Dickenson for some good food at Michael Vs and then seeing a movie sounds like a good evening, but if the wife and I can go downtown for a nice dinner, movie, the lights of the city, drinks, a stroll, and some shopping, that's a date!  That would become a regular activity.  

You're right about a "bubble destination" I can get downtown from 91st street in 10 minutes or less.  As long as I can do that, it will be hard to pressure me to take public transportation.  So rather than force changes on people, why not take advantage of the fact that Tulsa is easy to get around, and capture that traffic for a longer duration of time by offering a myriad of activities tied to a centralized location?
 
This will actually cause the density necessary to reduce parking and encourage more public transportation options as you propose.  With the density will also come the market to support the secondary retail/grocery/and service industries.






Hmmm, I seem to remember the Forum shops closing sporadically, and the whole place just dying a slow death, but I could totally be wrong since I don't know the history. It seems that if the Forum was successful they would have just built a new trading facility somewhere else.

Regardless, I agree with you about regular and recurring traffic, but I don't believe it is as simple as building a movie theater. A theater is a by-product of an already established area, IMO. If downtown already had a shopping district, or a critical working/living mass of people, or a large school/university then a theater would work. Show me a dying downtown that was 'sparked' back to life by a new theater and I will agree with you.

I truly believe that Tulsa and Tulsans need to rethink the transit/parking/driving situations if downtown will ever thrive. I also realize this will not happen overnight, but nothing worthwhile ever does.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: azbadpuppy on July 03, 2008, 02:08:25 pm
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:
Originally posted by waterboy

From my experience the very first thing developers do after purchasing land is tear out all the trees and flatten the landscape (happening right now at 101 & memorial and 106th). That's already done downtown so they should feel comfortable.

What you are describing is the old Williams Center Forum with multiple screens. It was popular, had convenient adjacent parking and multiple floors of retail and restaurants surrounding an ice skating rink. It was cool and novel for the times. Different times I know and downtown was still filled with Williams employees but still.....

Dickinson theaters was alone for years out on Memorial. Years. Regal Plaza was only recently developed and more because Bixby and that area of Tulsa is growing so fast, NOT because of the theater. Someone has to offer a counter view of reality, go ahead and blast me, but it seems simplistic to think that multi screen movie theaters are the catalyst for development. They are part of the recipe but not the yeast.



I have to agree with you that theaters are not a catalyst. IMO, the answer to successful downtown development actually lies in its parking and transit situations, not large multiscreen movie theaters- those only really do well where large numbers of people live anyway. Why would a large number of Tulsans drive downtown specifically to see a movie when the same movies are playing all over town at a theater close to home? The Forum already failed downtown, and another good example is the failure of the Arizona Center and Mercado shopping centers in downtown Phoenix- very similar projects to the Forum in Tulsa, but outdoors.

For an example of a successful downtown miltiplex theater look to Denver. The pavillions is adjacent to the 16th street mall, which has dozens of restaurants, shops, bars, hotels, etc. The mall was there long before the theater- but Denver also has an estimated 70,000 people living in its downtown.

The biggest mistake Phoenix, Tulsa, and many other downtowns have made is supplying too much parking in their downtowns. Parking only creates a bubble environment, in which people drive in, park, go straight into their destinations, then run back to their car and leave straight afterwards. There is no foot traffic, no patronizing the smaller businesses downtown, no street life at all. Phoenix has literally spent billions trying to revitalize their downtown, and along with a new ballpark, new arena, new shopping malls, parks, plazas, etc etc they built massive parking structures all over DT. The result? Downtown is still pretty much a ghost town. There is still no grocery store(!) or any significant retail at all. It is slowly improving, but I believe it won't really get any better until ASU opens their downtown campus with 15,000 students,(most living DT without cars) and the opening of the light rail.

Denver, however, did not build a lot of new parking to go along with all of the massive development in their revitalized downtown areas (specifically LODO). The result? A thriving pedestrian oriented 24 hour downtown. People are basically forced to take public transit to ball games, shopping, etc. Parking is so difficult in downtown Denver, suburbanites will actually take the train/bus to events. This totally encourages them to stroll and linger DT and actually patronize the other businesses. Something like 90 bars/restaurants sprung up around Coors field after it opened because of all the foot traffic around it. Granted, Denver has a light rail and very good transit system, but Tulsa needs to do something similar if Downtown is to ever become a true 'destination'.




Very good points indeed. We do need more people living downtown and I agree with the parking thing. Best scenario for any new parking downtown is that it be part of a mixed use development, shops and living wrapped around parking.  

I go back to my 3 legs of the stool analogy. One leg is living, the other entertainment/shopping, the other business, gov. and college. You need to push for all 3 and not get too focused on just one.

I think downtown as an entertainment type destination having a theater would help round out the options there. Why would you go downtown to a theater if you could go anywhere else? I would go because there would be other things to do before and after. I already go downtown to eat a lot. I could go many other places but I like going downtown. Would be nice imo to go to a movie before or after I eat versus going to a movie in one part of town then driving all the way downtown to eat. The ol "dinner and a movie" thing. Also, one would hope and expect that any theater downtown would not be just an average theater, that it would be an attraction itself. Something different, special and unique.

 I also like going out to the clubs and coffe shops downtown. Again, would be nice to have other options to do as well while I am there. I think a small theater would work downtown. Yes we need more living, yes the colleges should be expanded, etc. I think we are moving along on all fronts. Couple more years and downtown will feel like quite a different place than it does now. Perhaps then is when we will see a movie theater coming in down there.





I agree that a certain type of theater would do quite well downtown- most likely a 'destination' type theater like a science IMAX or an arthouse or dinner theater type of thing. This would definitely bring in people simply because they couldn't get it anywhere else. But then you have the same 'bubble' situation of driving in, going into the 'destination' and then driving out. It would be the same as the ballpark, the PAC, or the arena.

Downtown will really thrive when it is perceived more of a neighborhood than a destination point- when people actually want to live there.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: waterboy on July 03, 2008, 02:22:22 pm
quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy


I have to agree with you that theaters are not a catalyst. IMO, the answer to successful downtown development actually lies in its parking and transit situations, not large multiscreen movie theaters- those only really do well where large numbers of people live anyway. Why would a large number of Tulsans drive downtown specifically to see a movie when the same movies are playing all over town at a theater close to home? The Forum already failed downtown, and another good example is the failure of the Arizona Center and Mercado shopping centers in downtown Phoenix- very similar projects to the Forum in Tulsa, but outdoors.

For an example of a successful downtown miltiplex theater look to Denver. The pavillions is adjacent to the 16th street mall, which has dozens of restaurants, shops, bars, hotels, etc. The mall was there long before the theater- but Denver also has an estimated 70,000 people living in its downtown.

The biggest mistake Phoenix, Tulsa, and many other downtowns have made is supplying too much parking in their downtowns. Parking only creates a bubble environment, in which people drive in, park, go straight into their destinations, then run back to their car and leave straight afterwards. There is no foot traffic, no patronizing the smaller businesses downtown, no street life at all. Phoenix has literally spent billions trying to revitalize their downtown, and along with a new ballpark, new arena, new shopping malls, parks, plazas, etc etc they built massive parking structures all over DT. The result? Downtown is still pretty much a ghost town. There is still no grocery store(!) or any significant retail at all. It is slowly improving, but I believe it won't really get any better until ASU opens their downtown campus with 15,000 students,(most living DT without cars) and the opening of the light rail.

Denver, however, did not build a lot of new parking to go along with all of the massive development in their revitalized downtown areas (specifically LODO). The result? A thriving pedestrian oriented 24 hour downtown. People are basically forced to take public transit to ball games, shopping, etc. Parking is so difficult in downtown Denver, suburbanites will actually take the train/bus to events. This totally encourages them to stroll and linger DT and actually patronize the other businesses. Something like 90 bars/restaurants sprung up around Coors field after it opened because of all the foot traffic around it. Granted, Denver has a light rail and very good transit system, but Tulsa needs to do something similar if Downtown is to ever become a true 'destination'.




Pup,
Forum didn't fail.  It was closed to make room for the new trading facility.

You have good points.  But you can't force a vehicle society like Tulsa to change.  That takes decades of increased population density.

The occasional ball game or concert will only make downtown an occasional destination.  The idea behind successful LBE is regular and recurring traffic.

As kids my friends and I would venture to the Forum every weekend to see movies and walk around down town even though Woodland Hills and Southroads were right down the road.  Being in downtown was just cool!  

People don't just go to a movie.  They go "out".  Driving to Dickenson for some good food at Michael Vs and then seeing a movie sounds like a good evening, but if the wife and I can go downtown for a nice dinner, movie, the lights of the city, drinks, a stroll, and some shopping, that's a date!  That would become a regular activity.  

You're right about a "bubble destination" I can get downtown from 91st street in 10 minutes or less.  As long as I can do that, it will be hard to pressure me to take public transportation.  So rather than force changes on people, why not take advantage of the fact that Tulsa is easy to get around, and capture that traffic for a longer duration of time by offering a myriad of activities tied to a centralized location?
 
This will actually cause the density necessary to reduce parking and encourage more public transportation options as you propose.  With the density will also come the market to support the secondary retail/grocery/and service industries.






Hmmm, I seem to remember the Forum shops closing sporadically, and the whole place just dying a slow death, but I could totally be wrong since I don't know the history. It seems that if the Forum was successful they would have just built a new trading facility somewhere else.

Regardless, I agree with you about regular and recurring traffic, but I don't believe it is as simple as building a movie theater. A theater is a by-product of an already established area, IMO. If downtown already had a shopping district, or a critical working/living mass of people, or a large school/university then a theater would work. Show me a dying downtown that was 'sparked' back to life by a new theater and I will agree with you.

I truly believe that Tulsa and Tulsans need to rethink the transit/parking/driving situations if downtown will ever thrive. I also realize this will not happen overnight, but nothing worthwhile ever does.



Can't rewrite that history Gaspar. The Forum died a slow death. At the end it was just Orange Julius and the Ice. Then Williams recaptured the space for their uses since they owned it anyway.

I think Az confirms my belief by noting real world experience. The Delman on 15th (now Cherry) and the Brook on Peoria were not anchors or catalysts for those two areas. They closed before those areas became hot spots. I could look up their opening dates but I would bet they came after the neighborhoods were established. I also dispute that the growth of Riverwalk was due to the theatre. Its almost entirely teen patrons and even they are banned after a certain time each evening. I would venture it was more due to the mexican restaurant selling margaritas outdoors!

And if your theory held, I would have taken my kids to 106th and Memorial or 71st & Memorial theaters when they were young and had dinner etc. Instead, we would hit Fontana, 31st & Sheridan or even Sand Springs before we would venture that far south. It was convenience and price that ruled.

Interesting to see that besides the nature of the demographics and density of the surrounding neighborhoods being the key components, that of all things, too much parking may be counterproductive. I love counter intuitive stuff like that. Nonetheless, we can't wait for light rail to be accepted here.

I would welcome a place downtown to go see movies downtown, just don't believe it is the catalyst you do. The focus currently on quality housing, good demos and entertainment activities is the most important thing.


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: mrB on July 03, 2008, 04:29:14 pm
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
... The Delman on 15th (now Cherry) and the Brook on Peoria were not anchors or catalysts for those two areas. They closed before those areas became hot spots...


Places like the Delman are gone for good. Unfortunately we can't raise those historic buildings from the dust. But maybe the Brook could be restored. The facade is 'basically' hidden in there and the marquee/sign still shines. It could be made into a theatre that serves dinner and drinks. Now that the Restless Ribbon has her 'bow on'!

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2634291803_06ca25d585_s.jpg) (http://"http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2634291803_06ca25d585.jpg?v=0")


Title: "Heart of Southdown"?
Post by: inteller on July 04, 2008, 08:14:18 pm
well, I went to take a look at Regal Plaza and I'm pretty blown away.  I had no idea they are building a 5 story parking garage, neatly tucked away so you can't see it from the road.  It is still a work in progress, but it reminds me a LOT of LoDo in Denver.  You can sit there and stew with envy, jealousy, whatever, but they did this right.  Stores where you can come in from the front or back, the majority of the parking hidden from Memorial, and it is unusually dense....oh, and the public didn't have to pay them to do it.  That's just sweet.

If Memorial Commons is half this nice I am pretty confident that Southtown wins.  I'm sure da mare will do all she can to keep it choked off to the north at 101st/memorial.