http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080430/pl_politico/9965;_ylt=AhbFSNFi4nft305RDTOi.j1h24cA
Obama breaks with former pastor
Ben Smith
Sen. Barack Obama coolly denounced the Rev. Jeremiah Wright for his "appalling" words and for his personal and political betrayal Tuesday, a day after Wright seized center stage in the race for the White House and six weeks after Obama said he could no more "disown" his former pastor than he could his own grandmother.
Obama's remarks were a second attempt to end perhaps the most damaging chapter of his political career -- and strategists raised significant doubts about whether even Obama's blistering words could immediately quell the crisis Wright has created for the Illinois senator's campaign.
In the weeks since the Wright controversy first emerged, Obama has receded in the public eye, and his Hyde Park, Chicago, milieu -- Wright, former Weather Underground bomber William Ayers and the San Francisco comments that made Obama seem distant from working-class Americans -- has come to dominate his image and seemed to energize the flagging nomination hopes of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
"When I say I find these comments appalling, I mean it. It contradicts everything that I am about and who I am, and anybody who has worked with me, who knows my life, who has read my books, who has seen what this campaign's about, I think, will understand that it is completely opposed to what I stand for and where I want to take this country," Obama said in a press conference called after a rally in Winston-Salem, N.C., where he was campaigning Tuesday.
Obama's comments were triggered by Wright's defense of what the candidate called "ridiculous propositions": that the U.S. government created the HIV virus and that Louis Farrakhan is a great and important voice.
But underlying Obama's words was a sense of personal betrayal by a man whom the candidate had given the "benefit of the doubt" in his speech in Philadelphia last month.
Wright had dismissed Obama's March 18 speech as politics, and Obama turned on him sharply and, he said, with "anger."
Wright's words were "a show of disrespect to me [and] an insult to what we're trying to do in this campaign," Obama said.
Indeed, Obama seemed to offer a distinctly personal denunciation of Wright, whom he had defended in Philadelphia as a good man and a good minister.
"I'm particularly distressed that this has caused such a distraction from what this campaign should be about, which is the American people," Obama said. "The fact that Rev. Wright would think that somehow it was appropriate to command the stage for three or four consecutive days in the midst of this major debate is something that not only makes me angry but also saddens me."
Later, Obama effectively accused Wright of grandstanding at the expense of his presidential campaign.
"Now is the time for us not to get distracted. Now is the time for us to pull together, and that's what we've been doing in this campaign. And you know, there was a sense that that did not matter to Rev. Wright.
What mattered was him commanding center stage," he said.
Analysts differed on how much damage Wright will do Obama in his primary fight with Clinton or in a general election against Sen. John McCain, but none dismissed the impact the televised images of the animated, radical preacher will have on the candidate as the campaign proceeds.
"For Obama, Wright is like an infected tattoo. I mean, you can treat the flare-ups, but the stain is self-inflicted and lasting," said Republican strategist and former Bush aide Tucker Eskew.
Even Obama's supporters acknowledged that Wright has done him real damage. But they said they hoped the speech would draw a clear line between Obama and his former pastor -- and that the confrontation between the two men would underscore the difference between them.
Rep. Chaka Fattah (D-Pa.), an Obama backer, applauded the Illinois senator for taking the issue head-on. Obama, he said, "was personally angered and responded."
Fattah doesn't think Wright's resurfacing will have any impact on voters. "People have already factored in the Wright situation when it arose the first time," he said. "I don't think there's going to be a second look at it."
Even if there is, said Fattah, voters understand that the relationship between a pastor and a congregant is not one that constitutes a mutual endorsement. Still, Obama's critics derided the timing of his speech. "The failure to unceremoniously disgorge the pastor from his universe earlier in the year now means that today's action -- while better late than never -- is still very late in terms of the lasting political consequences," said Chris Lehane, a Democratic consultant who supports Clinton.
But Obama has, in the past, quelled concerns about his campaign with the kind of skillful, direct political performance he turned in Tuesday -- and with an appeal to the same principles of reconciliation that have animated his campaign. "I don't know what else he could say. I don't know what else people would demand he could say," said Bob Shrum, a top adviser to the 2004 presidential campaign of Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.).
Indeed, the general election impact is hard to gauge. Obama's immediate aim, though, was to reassure Democratic voters and -- at least as important -- the party officials who will decide the nomination based on his values and his political viability. And while the Wright eruption has reinvigorated Clinton's campaign, which announced Tuesday the endorsements of North Carolina Gov. Mike Easley and Rep. Ike Skelton, a powerful Democrat from Missouri, there were no signs of superdelegates abandoning the ship of the front-running Obama, who announced the backing of Rep. Ben Chandler (D-Ky.) on Tuesday.
In the short term, this furor presents a delicate challenge for Clinton, who must ride the issue without seeming to stoke it. "Any attempt to keep the issue alive for its own sake will hurt whoever does that," Shrum said.
Conversations with uncommitted superdelegates Tuesday afternoon revealed no immediate shifts as a result of Wright's or Obama's words. "Rev. Wright is a pimple on this whole campaign," said Steve Ybarra, a California superdelegate who is chairman of the Democratic National Committee's Hispanic Caucus and who said he didn't find the question relevant. "It's more than enough said about the issue."
I am very happy that Obama has distanced himself and his campaign from this pastor.
For those who have been reading my political comments, you know I have been discussing this long before the national media was. I discussed this with some of you by private e-mail back in 2007.
Obama should have left this church or denounced this pastor weeks, months, or years ago. It bothered me that it bothered me so much, but I just felt uncomfortable supporting a presidential candidate that showed such poor judgement. I know it was guilt by association, but, sometimes, you are who you hang with.
I feel much better about Obama today.
Actually, I think the pastor threw himself under the bus.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
Actually, I think the pastor threw himself under the bus.
+1 Wilbur. That's the stuff right there.
I watched him on Bill Moyer, and thought, this guys ok, smart, knows his scriptures. But then something seemed to happen to him on the way to the press club.
As much as I understand why Obama distanced himself from this man, and as much as I think many of Wright's comments are wrong, I still think it is important to understand better why he says what he says. If you think he is just one crazy guy, you haven't spent much time in African American communities. I use to work in the projects in DC. It was a common belief that the government introduced crack cocaine to destroy black communities.
How can we ever change what's wrong with America if a large chunk of the population sincerely believes that the government is conspiring to destroy them?
What does it mean to a community when a young black man at his bachelor party is killed in a hail of bullets, and the police who shot him are acquitted? The news media is focused on the black preacher, but the African American community is seeing something entirely different.
We have a real problem in our country. Sometimes when I see the vast divide that keeps us apart in America--whether by race, religion, politics, or class--I think it might be hopeless.
PM....NOT HOPELESS!
We are seeing the change we envision. Tolerance and acceptance can't come without the mean people kicking back over and over. Stay calm and don't panic. A new day is dawning. Have hope. This is what the year 08 is in politics....change. The evil doers and mean people have had their day.
Oh boy! The whirl wind is starting. If you can't see that, then the will be a good learning experience for the young and the high (that would be you FOTARD). The only thing I give you, is that you are right, the media will pound this until it's the only question left to ask. Wright will be in every debate just like he was a candidate.
WEvsUS I can't be so hard on you. You only come across as young. This is not the first time this has happened to a candidate. Obama will now have to take the next few weeks to campaign against Hillary, McCain, and Wright. The members of the black church will view it as a campaign against their church. Hillary will stand back and gain small numbers. Many of the Super Delegates will view this as a valid reason to vote against Obama and justify it to the party. This is what they've been waiting for. Bill is already working behind the curtain on this.
I admire your willingness to explore change. The prospect of a new day is always inviting. Unfortunately you are being used. The change you seek, is no more than smoke. Nothing concrete has been proposed by any candidate (D or R). The only candidates that proposed a plan for relief from taxes, relief from inflation, relief from foreign energy control, and relief from being the world's police force are no longer in the race. They were crushed with the right foot of establishment and the left foot of ambition.
Obama's chances against McCain are minimal now, and Hillary's chances never existed.
As for Hillary, the current polls don't reflect the revival of her scandals that will take place if she is nominated. I hold here in my wrinkled hand an old document from the Clinton years. The universal health-care plan. It is the most ridiculous piece of work ever committed to paper with a budget in the trillions. Don't you wonder why it hasn't been put back on the table yet? It's ammo. It's as thick as a bible and offers hundreds of pages of hand-grenades. Her new plan is basically a mandatory insurance plan funded by taxes. It will do nothing to decrease the cost of care, in fact it will inflate it. It also promises to destroy the profits of the drug companies. In other words, no more new drugs. Wonderful!
How can the Democrats fix this?
Someone needs to drop out, and a solid VP candidate must be chosen. But I don't know if it's possible. That VP must be strong enough to stand on his/her own.
I was dismayed at how poorly the O handled the situation. He should have defended his Church as the Body of Christ, and pointed out how Christ changed Wright - not perfected him. O's equivocations and writhing around has absolutely diminished his standing. He should have used Wright's appearances as evidence that Wright is his own man and that they are not joined at the hip.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I am very happy that Obama has distanced himself and his campaign from this pastor.
For those who have been reading my political comments, you know I have been discussing this long before the national media was. I discussed this with some of you by private e-mail back in 2007.
Obama should have left this church or denounced this pastor weeks, months, or years ago. It bothered me that it bothered me so much, but I just felt uncomfortable supporting a presidential candidate that showed such poor judgement. I know it was guilt by association, but, sometimes, you are who you hang with.
I feel much better about Obama today.
I don't.
There are strong strains of Marxist ideology in the Black Theology content of Obama's only known church experience:
An uninterrupted 20-year lovefest until he ran for President, and Reverand Wright's relationship stuck to Obama like a Tar Baby.
Figuring out WHO is Barack Obama cannot be completed until the calculus of his adherence to a virulent, radically intolerant strain of religion known as Black Theology is factored into the equation.
His major religious experience has been within a Black Theology church that espouses the theology that White christianity is different from Black christianity because White christianity was the religion of the Slave-Master, and even that Christ was an African.
His church continually espouses the belief that Black people are "Oppressed". Oh, and that the U.S. Government invented AIDS to target minorities. And, crack cocaine, too.
Looney-tune city. Although I will agree that Federal sentencing guidelines for several decades has had a disparate impact on blacks because the sentence for selling Crack Cocaine is much more several than for merely selling Cocaine.
Even a cursory reading of the purpose and practice of those churches espousing Black Theology will quickly make you realize that Barack Obama has not been driving your Daddy's Oldsmobile, nor attending your Daddy's church the past 20 years.
TWENTY Years.
His Chicago church choice fits his profile, however.
His parents were far Left socialists; probably Marxist-Leninists. A White woman marrying a black man in 1961 earned the woman an instant Pariah label. But, as she was three months pregnant when they wed, it may have been her Hobson's Choice. His father quickly abandoned them.
He may even have enough momentum to get the Democratic Nomination, but there's plenty of time before November 4 for voters to get educated as to the content of his character.
I suspect the more they learn, the less they'll be impressed by his superbly delivered speeches.
[8D]
Where does that leave you, FB? What gospel does your church preach?
Yes, be afraid. Especially if you live in Oklahoma. The end is coming. Marxists are far more lethal than facists and neo cons.....
On a more serious note, John McFlintstone's got an issue with an entire race....not a single pastor(although he's got several of those issues as well)....
John McCain's White Supremacist Problem
Posted April 28, 2008 | 03:02 PM (EST)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cliff-schecter/john-mccains-white-suprem_b_99014.html
"One would have to strain to be shocked that a racist ad is finding its way out of the bowels of conservativism in North Carolina. For political observers from the 1980s and 1990s will remember that Senator Jesse Helms was a master of using divisive tactics inject race into just about everything he did outside of brushing his teeth -- whenever he wasn't straining through the holes in the sheet he was wearing to see his Jefferson Davis emblazoned toothbrush.
Yet, racism for electoral gain obviously did not go away with Helms' retirement from politics. And neither has Republican timidity in doing anything to control the extreme elements in the party--or their base if you will. So once again, just as other conservatives sat idly by and claimed Jesse was just being Jesse, now John McCain throws his hands up in the air as if there is nothing he can do when a racist ad is run by the North Carolina GOP against Barack Obama:
ABC NEWS' Bret Hovell and Russell Goldman report: Sen. John McCain said Thursday that if elected president -- and becomes the de facto head of the GOP -- he would not demand a change in the leadership of the North Carolina Republican Party despite condemning its plan to air an ad attacking Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill, and his controversial minister.
It's good to know where the Senator stands on this issue (at least today). In my book, The Real McCain: Why Conservatives Don't Trust Him And Why Independents Shouldn't, I recount McCain' questionable past on issues of race his entire career. From the many years he rejected a Martin Luther King Jr. holiday (pretty much the entire 70s and 80s) to his serial flip-flops on the Confederate Flag in 2000 (which he admits he did for political reasons -- no way, not you Johnny!) to his close association with a white supremacist named Richard Quinn, who found himself hired as a political advisor by McCain in 2000 (and still is from what I can tell) after openly praising David Duke (he called him a "maverick") selling t-shirts praising the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and writing/editing for a magazine (Southern Partisan) that reminded us that slave masters just really weren't all that bad.
That's The Real McCain for you. Now I'll be waiting for the media to do their job and report on his close association with a white supremacist just as they have every aspect of Barack Obama's life. While not overly sanguine, I do have hope that some of the more responsible voices in the press, who as of late have been pointing out McCain's dangerous temper and penchant for not understanding who we're fighting abroad, will continue to show the courage to stand up to the McCain Machine."
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Yes, be afraid. Especially if you live in Oklahoma. The end is coming. Marxists are far more lethal than facists and neo cons.....
On a more serious note, John McFlintstone's got an issue with an entire race....not a single pastor(although he's got several of those issues as well)....
John McCain's White Supremacist Problem
Posted April 28, 2008 | 03:02 PM (EST)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cliff-schecter/john-mccains-white-suprem_b_99014.html
"One would have to strain to be shocked that a racist ad is finding its way out of the bowels of conservativism in North Carolina. For political observers from the 1980s and 1990s will remember that Senator Jesse Helms was a master of using divisive tactics inject race into just about everything he did outside of brushing his teeth -- whenever he wasn't straining through the holes in the sheet he was wearing to see his Jefferson Davis emblazoned toothbrush.
Yet, racism for electoral gain obviously did not go away with Helms' retirement from politics. And neither has Republican timidity in doing anything to control the extreme elements in the party--or their base if you will. So once again, just as other conservatives sat idly by and claimed Jesse was just being Jesse, now John McCain throws his hands up in the air as if there is nothing he can do when a racist ad is run by the North Carolina GOP against Barack Obama:
ABC NEWS' Bret Hovell and Russell Goldman report: Sen. John McCain said Thursday that if elected president -- and becomes the de facto head of the GOP -- he would not demand a change in the leadership of the North Carolina Republican Party despite condemning its plan to air an ad attacking Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill, and his controversial minister.
It's good to know where the Senator stands on this issue (at least today). In my book, The Real McCain: Why Conservatives Don't Trust Him And Why Independents Shouldn't, I recount McCain' questionable past on issues of race his entire career. From the many years he rejected a Martin Luther King Jr. holiday (pretty much the entire 70s and 80s) to his serial flip-flops on the Confederate Flag in 2000 (which he admits he did for political reasons -- no way, not you Johnny!) to his close association with a white supremacist named Richard Quinn, who found himself hired as a political advisor by McCain in 2000 (and still is from what I can tell) after openly praising David Duke (he called him a "maverick") selling t-shirts praising the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and writing/editing for a magazine (Southern Partisan) that reminded us that slave masters just really weren't all that bad.
That's The Real McCain for you. Now I'll be waiting for the media to do their job and report on his close association with a white supremacist just as they have every aspect of Barack Obama's life. While not overly sanguine, I do have hope that some of the more responsible voices in the press, who as of late have been pointing out McCain's dangerous temper and penchant for not understanding who we're fighting abroad, will continue to show the courage to stand up to the McCain Machine."
Oh! My goodness! from the Huffington Post too. . . That must be serious.
At least the wacko's are trying!
Please![;)]
You are no match for our vast conspiracy! Our people are watching you FOTD.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Where does that leave you, FB? What gospel does your church preach?
It's irrelevant.
I'm not running for President of the U.S.A.
I'm not running for anything.
Although occasionally I've been elected Mr. Un-Popularity on the TulsaNow.org Forum.
[:D]
My perspective is this...it is all about risk. Knowing what we know about him, do we want to risk it? Even if his voting record is clean and ya ya ya...do we need another surprise in the White House? As much as I don't want to say this, this primary isn't going to be long enough for me to really learn what I would like to about him. To many wierd variables.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Where does that leave you, FB? What gospel does your church preach?
It's irrelevant.
I'm not running for President of the U.S.A.
I'm not running for anything.
Although occasionally I've been elected Mr. Un-Popularity on the TulsaNow.org Forum.
[:D]
Yes. You do have stiff competition.[:(]
quote:
Originally posted by mrhaskellok
My perspective is this...it is all about risk. Knowing what we know about him, do we want to risk it? Even if his voting record is clean and ya ya ya...do we need another surprise in the White House? As much as I don't want to say this, this primary isn't going to be long enough for me to really learn what I would like to about him. To many wierd variables.
Let me guess.....you voted for Dumbya not once but twice. Taking a chance. A cheerleader? A loser? A dry drunk? A preppy? Give me a break.
"Sooprise, Sooprise, Sooprise" Gomer Pyle
If you want to be president you have to live your life like you are going to be president and anticipate the political consequences of your choices. I don't believe Obama ever thought he was going to get this far.
Obama's claim that he was unaware of Wright's beliefs is not credible. And I expect that his claim will be disproved.
But he is trying to salvage his campaign and being candid about Wright would have killed Obama's last hope of winning the hick vote.
I find myself worrying about the Obama supporters. Oh, how are these people going to handle this? It's going to be so difficult for them. We Clinton supporters have died a thousand deaths without one note of concern from the Obama supporters. But I still worry about my idealistic bethren.
Wright is right about so many things. But the hicks live in a state of denial and disrupting their simplistic view of life doesn't earn votes.
Anyway, the Governor of North Carolina endorsed Clinton. Lots of good things have been happening for Clinton but I doubt we are going to hear about it since the press is mad at Bill for reading their beads.
I still think the "Dream Ticket" is the way out of this mess for Democrats. The vice president undergoes a lot less scrutiny and bringing Obama in would save the inevitable split in our party if he is not offered the vice presidency.
FOTD, when you say that mean people and political evil is a thing of the past, you highlight the completely unrelistic mindset of many Obama supporters. And yes, we need every Democrat, each one is important to the party, but you guys don't make it easy.
Like I said here a couple of years ago. Clinton is going to the White House after she gives McCain one hell of a spanking.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
I don't.
There are strong strains of Marxist ideology in the Black Theology content of Obama's only known church experience:
An uninterrupted 20-year lovefest until he ran for President, and Reverand Wright's relationship stuck to Obama like a Tar Baby.
"uninterrupted 20-year lovefest"
"strong strains of Marxist ideology" Thanks, FB..... for spreading the type of unfair propaganda that would make even Michael Moore blush...
Your ilk said the EXACT SAME THINGS about Martin Luther King back in the day...
It's really shameful that some people have no empathy for anybody at all... period. And that when someone calls this country out on its "moral deficit".... it's "empathy deficit"... they are rejected out of hand by know-nothing republicans...
http://www.rollingstone.com/blogs/campaign2008videos/2008/01/obamas-ml.php
I know the southside of Chicago. I sang at a catholic church on the southside. I've heard stories of the trials and tribulations of St. Sabina's on the southside. I know that Trinity was one of a handful of churches that have done MORE FOR THEIR COMMUNITY on the southside of Chicago than Victory or Grace or Rhema or Boston Ave, etc, etc... would ever think of doing...
I listened to Wright's speeches on CNN
(in their entirety--not the well-chosen soundbites)... I can easily understand why people would sit in his pews for 20 years... I wholeheartedly agree with 80% of what Wright said... of course that's NOT what people will hear from the media. And I'd be lucky if I agreed with 80% of what my pastor says... especially Father Bob... what a jerk...
If Barack had gone to one of those snoozefest episcopal churches for the last 20 years, he wouldn't be the same person he is today... a person who has INTEGRITY.
Something this country desperately needs.
Despite the fact that slick "fair-and-balanced" networks like Fox News insist on reporting lies that Obama attended a madrassa... is muslim... is a sockpuppet for Farrakhan... etc, etc, etc...
http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/20/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_40.php
"It's not easy to stand in somebody else's shoes. It's not easy to see past our differences. We've all encountered this in our own lives. But what makes it even more difficult is that we have a politics in this country that seeks to drive us apart - that puts up walls between us."
"We are told that those who differ from us on a few things are different from us on all things; that our problems are the fault of those who don't think like us or look like us or come from where we do. The welfare queen is taking our tax money. The immigrant is taking our jobs. The believer condemns the non-believer as immoral, and the non-believer chides the believer as intolerant."
"For most of this country's history, we in the African-American community have been at the receiving end of man's inhumanity to man. And all of us understand intimately the insidious role that race still sometimes plays - on the job, in the schools, in our health care system, and in our criminal justice system."
"And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community."
"We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them. The scourge of anti-Semitism has, at times, revealed itself in our community. For too long, some of us have seen immigrants as competitors for jobs instead of companions in the fight for opportunity."
"Every day, our politics fuels and exploits this kind of division across all races and regions; across gender and party. It is played out on television. It is sensationalized by the media. And last week, it even crept into the campaign for President, with charges and counter-charges that served to obscure the issues instead of illuminating the critical choices we face as a nation."
"So let us say that on this day of all days, each of us carries with us the task of changing our hearts and minds. The division, the stereotypes, the scape-goating, the ease with which we blame our plight on others - all of this distracts us from the common challenges we face - war and poverty; injustice and inequality. We can no longer afford to build ourselves up by tearing someone else down. We can no longer afford to traffic in lies or fear or hate. It is the poison that we must purge from our politics; the wall that we must tear down before the hour grows too late."
"Because if Dr. King could love his jailor; if he could call on the faithful who once sat where you do to forgive those who set dogs and fire hoses upon them, then surely we can look past what divides us in our time, and bind up our wounds, and erase the empathy deficit that exists in our hearts."Preach it! Brother Barack! [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
I don't.
There are strong strains of Marxist ideology in the Black Theology content of Obama's only known church experience:
An uninterrupted 20-year lovefest until he ran for President, and Reverand Wright's relationship stuck to Obama like a Tar Baby.
"uninterrupted 20-year lovefest"
"strong strains of Marxist ideology"
Thanks, FB..... for spreading the type of unfair propaganda that would make even Michael Moore blush...
Your ilk said the EXACT SAME THINGS about Martin Luther King back in the day...
It's really shameful that some people have no empathy for anybody at all... period. And that when someone calls this country out on its "moral deficit".... it's "empathy deficit"... they are rejected out of hand by know-nothing republicans...
http://www.rollingstone.com/blogs/campaign2008videos/2008/01/obamas-ml.php
I know the southside of Chicago. I sang at a catholic church on the southside. I've heard stories of the trials and tribulations of St. Sabina's on the southside. I know that Trinity was one of a handful of churches that have done MORE FOR THEIR COMMUNITY on the southside of Chicago than Victory or Grace or Rhema or Boston Ave, etc, etc... would ever think of doing...
I listened to Wright's speeches on CNN (in their entirety--not the well-chosen soundbites)... I can easily understand why people would sit in his pews for 20 years... I wholeheartedly agree with 80% of what Wright said... of course that's NOT what people will hear from the media. And I'd be lucky if I agreed with 80% of what my pastor says... especially Father Bob... what a jerk...
If Barack had gone to one of those snoozefest episcopal churches for the last 20 years, he wouldn't be the same person he is today... a person who has INTEGRITY.
Something this country desperately needs.
Despite the fact that slick "fair-and-balanced" networks like Fox News insist on reporting lies that Obama attended a madrassa... is muslim... is a sockpuppet for Farrakhan... etc, etc, etc...
http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/20/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_40.php
"It's not easy to stand in somebody else's shoes. It's not easy to see past our differences. We've all encountered this in our own lives. But what makes it even more difficult is that we have a politics in this country that seeks to drive us apart - that puts up walls between us."
"We are told that those who differ from us on a few things are different from us on all things; that our problems are the fault of those who don't think like us or look like us or come from where we do. The welfare queen is taking our tax money. The immigrant is taking our jobs. The believer condemns the non-believer as immoral, and the non-believer chides the believer as intolerant."
"For most of this country's history, we in the African-American community have been at the receiving end of man's inhumanity to man. And all of us understand intimately the insidious role that race still sometimes plays - on the job, in the schools, in our health care system, and in our criminal justice system."
"And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community."
"We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them. The scourge of anti-Semitism has, at times, revealed itself in our community. For too long, some of us have seen immigrants as competitors for jobs instead of companions in the fight for opportunity."
"Every day, our politics fuels and exploits this kind of division across all races and regions; across gender and party. It is played out on television. It is sensationalized by the media. And last week, it even crept into the campaign for President, with charges and counter-charges that served to obscure the issues instead of illuminating the critical choices we face as a nation."
"So let us say that on this day of all days, each of us carries with us the task of changing our hearts and minds. The division, the stereotypes, the scape-goating, the ease with which we blame our plight on others - all of this distracts us from the common challenges we face - war and poverty; injustice and inequality. We can no longer afford to build ourselves up by tearing someone else down. We can no longer afford to traffic in lies or fear or hate. It is the poison that we must purge from our politics; the wall that we must tear down before the hour grows too late."
"Because if Dr. King could love his jailor; if he could call on the faithful who once sat where you do to forgive those who set dogs and fire hoses upon them, then surely we can look past what divides us in our time, and bind up our wounds, and erase the empathy deficit that exists in our hearts."
Preach it! Brother Barack! [:P]
Propaganda?
No, it's the Truth, and in a Political Season, entirely fair.
If Barack Hussein Obama merely wanted to remain a U.S. Senator from Illinois, the grounding of his beliefs would be immaterial.
Now, he aspires to be Commander in Chief.
Character Counts. As we found out with Wm. Jefferson (Blythe) Clinton.
And, intelligence matters, as we found out with Mr. Potato-Head Geo. W. Bush.
Yes. Character DOES count.
That's why I'm giving $$$ to Barack Obama's campaign. And will continue to give until he is the president of the United States.
Compare the massive number of speeches Obama's given to the soundbites from Rev Wright... rinse... repeat...
Have you heard any of Rev Wright's sermons in their entirety?!?
Too little too late.
Why is he breaking ties now? Wright has been preaching these types of messages for 20+ years. Nothing he said at the Press Club speech he gave was any more inflammatory than what he's said before. Why denounce it so strongly now? He's preaching the same garbage he was before Obama first confronted the issue a month ago.
I only see two reasons he's doing this now. He's either:
1. A very, very poor judge of character and really missed this guys rantings for the last 20 years; (not likely since he has snippets of Wright's sermons in his book)
OR
2. A politician just like the rest of them and will do/say what he needs to get elected.
Neither one looks good for the man who supposedly is "above the fray." This guy's biggest draw has been his carefully crafted image that has made him look like a political outsider, uncorrupted by the system. Once people see he's just another politician the balloon will burst and a real analysis and vetting can begin.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Yes. Character DOES count.
That's why I'm giving $$$ to Barack Obama's campaign. And will continue to give until he is the president of the United States.
Compare the massive number of speeches Obama's given to the soundbites from Rev Wright... rinse... repeat...
Have you heard any of Rev Wright's sermons in their entirety?!?
I have heard extended (10 min+) clips of larger segments of sermons where these "rants" are supposedly in context. The extra context doesn't help his case.
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you haven't heard any of the sermons in their entirety either though...
I have heard them and COMPLETELY disagree with you. Which is certainly not a surprise by any stretch...
"Too little, too late"....?!?
More like... "d****d if you do, d****d if you don't"...
Obama was outraged at what his pastor said, and gave a marvelous speech on race in Philadelphia... guess it wasn't enough for YOU or the Republicans, however if Obama "threw his pastor under the bus" a few weeks ago, you would have accused him of being "disloyal."
So, how often does John McCain beat his wife?... you know, McCain used to like to go to strip clubs...
Does this make John McCain:
A) a churchgoing christian
B) a hypocrit
C) a secular-humanist
D) just a mere sinner who wants to be president
Seems like a fair question given the political season, n'est-ce pas???
I worked with some of the "sistahs from the southside" on day jobs in the loop.
Funny how the media has given equal time to black republican strategists to give moronic comments on Obama and Rev. Wright when approx 90% of blacks are voting for Sen Obama.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Too little too late.
Why is he breaking ties now? Wright has been preaching these types of messages for 20+ years. Nothing he said at the Press Club speech he gave was any more inflammatory than what he's said before. Why denounce it so strongly now? He's preaching the same garbage he was before Obama first confronted the issue a month ago.
I only see two reasons he's doing this now. He's either:
1. A very, very poor judge of character and really missed this guys rantings for the last 20 years; (not likely since he has snippets of Wright's sermons in his book)
OR
2. A politician just like the rest of them and will do/say what he needs to get elected.
Neither one looks good for the man who supposedly is "above the fray." This guy's biggest draw has been his carefully crafted image that has made him look like a political outsider, uncorrupted by the system. Once people see he's just another politician the balloon will burst and a real analysis and vetting can begin.
The reasons Obama attended, joined, and stayed in this church might shed some insight on his character.
I suspect that he joined Wright's church because it was a popular, growing South Chicago church. And, he had ambitions to want to move up the political ladder.
I suspect he STAYED because he agreed with much of what Reverand Wright preached.
Otherwise, most people if their core values are too often offended by a minister's preaching, simply vote with their feet - moving elsewhere or just staying at home.
Having a portion of the membership of a large, influential local church backing him probably helped gain him his first elected State office.
Obama was not really vetted in his U.S. Senate Race. His rival, GOP candidate Mr. Ryan's campaign imploded when his sealed, California divorce proceedings from well-endowed Star Trek actress Jeri Ryan was pre-emptorily UNSEALED by a Unsympathetic judge, revealing an ugly custody dispute and many, wild, unproven allegations.
Disgusted, Ryan was so sick of these dirty politics that he withdrew from the race, and the GOP had to find a last-minute replacement candidate from MARYLAND - Alan Keyes, as a substitute. He lost by 70% to 30%.
Mr. Obama also has the unfettered support from the odious Cook County Democratic Machine.
If you lie down with dogs, expect to catch some fleas.
I think it's pretty easy to explain:
Obama's camp never thought Hillary would stoop so low as to buy propaganda from Rove & Company in the primaries. [}:)]
Best thing McCain can do is sit back and keep his yapper shut for four more months.
Petrified posting.
The right wing nuts went to the church web site, saw the words "unashamedly Black" and declared that to be anti-white. Which it is not. They seem to forget America spent 375 years making people ashamed to be black. They also seem to forget Rush and company preaching "its time for black people to take care of their own community". So its a little duplicitous to say a church that responds by treating aids patients and prison ministries is Racist because it trying to help the Black communuty. Yet the right wing "decides" its a "racist church" and before long Charlie Gibson is saying it too. By the way, saying America is run by rich white men is not racist. Its irrefutable fact. Its the same Karl Rove crap they pulled getting us in the media to call Iraq part of the "war on Terror" when we knew damned well it didn't have antthing to do with terrorism, But Fox kept saying it.
What you saw in that debate was the result of the right wing's total control of the so-called Liberal Media. That debate could not have been more Republican if Rove wrote the questions himself. In reality, he did, by pushing and cornering the so called liberal media into acting more right wing than the right wing.
Then to defend themselves by claiming Obama is whining about being asked tough questions, and, again, labeling his responses as defensive, because its suits the ABC's need to deflect the criticism, is just offensive.
John McCain't will go down in defeat by Obama. Oklahomans will suffer for lack of progressive Congressmen and Senaturds. But our Republic will be saved from arrogant, unregulated, and incompetent government.
quote:
I have heard them and COMPLETELY disagree with you. Which is certainly not a surprise by any stretch...
Really!?!?
Would you care to provide us with expanded context transcriptions or videos that put these few comments into context? Since you've obviously obtained and listened to these sermons to put this loon in context.
quote:
"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."
quote:
When [Obama's] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."
quote:
I am happy to learn that the Nation of Islam's The Final Call, a newspaper that issues Louis Farrakhan's concerns regarding HIV/AIDS as genocide, has a direct link to our website. I applaud Minister Farrakhan, and a half dozen other Black leaders, who have grasped the truth about HIV/AIDS as a utilitarian population control plot, and have the guts to say it.
Any help would be appreciated.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
I have heard them and COMPLETELY disagree with you. Which is certainly not a surprise by any stretch...
Really!?!?
Would you care to provide us with expanded context transcriptions or videos that put these few comments into context? Since you've obviously obtained and listened to these sermons to put this loon in context.
quote:
"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."
quote:
When [Obama's] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."
quote:
I am happy to learn that the Nation of Islam's The Final Call, a newspaper that issues Louis Farrakhan's concerns regarding HIV/AIDS as genocide, has a direct link to our website. I applaud Minister Farrakhan, and a half dozen other Black leaders, who have grasped the truth about HIV/AIDS as a utilitarian population control plot, and have the guts to say it.
Any help would be appreciated.
Couldn't Reverand Wright's motivation be something as simple as REVENGE?
Afterall, he had to suddenly RETIRE as lead Pastor.
He may not have been ready to retire, but due to Barack Obama's backers, Wright got the rug jerked out from under him.
Now, it's Payback time.
Another Huffington Post post....too bad. Ignore it if you are so.
What Exactly is Rev. Wright Saying?
Posted April 30, 2008
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-lauria/why-exactly-is-rev-wright_b_99413.html
Let's look dispassionately, if we can, at exactly what this man is saying.
He says the U.S. military has killed millions of people in Southeast Asia, the Middle East and in this hemisphere since the end of World War II. Isn't that a verifiable fact? Were any of these peoples enemies of the United States who posed a genuine threat to American security? We can unequivocally say the Vietnamese, Iraqis, Panamanians and others were no direct threat. That is why doctored intelligence and misinformation were needed to justify these offensive wars, from the Gulf of Tonkin to Saddam's "involvement" with 9/11.
There have been less lethal forms of suffering imposed by U.S. foreign policy, such as Washington's support for autocratic regimes in Latin America, Asia, Africa and the Middle East. Is it surprising that a group, no matter how crazed, might want to seek revenge against the United States for their unjustified suffering? No right thinking person would have any difficulty understanding that.
Saying that former Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan is one of the most important voices of the 20th Century is patently absurd. Saying that African-Americans listen to what he says but don't always agree with him, sounds like fact. Wright clearly exaggerated his point here and did damage to his overall argument.
His comment that AIDS is a government biological weapon against the black community seems incredibly irresponsible without absolute proof. He cited two books at his press conference. I was unaware of these books and suspend judgment until reading them. Having learned the facts from Senator Frank Church's committee in the mid-seventies about CIA LSD experiments with American citizens and considering what we know about the Tuskegee Syphilis scandal, Wright is unfortunately right to say he wouldn't put it past the U.S. government to do anything.
Wright's knowledge of the history of the black church in America and his powerful defense of African-American culture, its music, its mode of preaching and worship is of the highest order and America needs to hear it.
So let's add up the scorecard.
He's right about revenge against American brutality over the last 60 years of foreign policy.
He exaggerated about Farrakhan, and his statement about AIDS is out there, but judgment is pending study of the books he cited.
The timing of Wright's remarks couldn't be worse for Obama and for all of us who want Obama elected. But for a man like Wright who has been speaking out for decades in relative obscurity to give up his first chance at the national stage -- because of Obama -- was obviously too much for him. He has his job to do, Obama has his, but he could not be blind to the damage he's done Obama.
Having said all this, the American people need to hear what Wright is saying about foreign policy. Instead too many Americans defend the myths their rulers fed them in school and that are constantly reinforced in the corporate media: myths that serve their rulers' interests, not theirs or those of countless innocent people around the globe. The specific myth in question is that American leaders are spreading democracy with their invasions and military interventions rather than merely extending their political and economic power.
One of the corporate media's jobs is to defend these myths that aid corporate interests by vilifying Wright or anyone else who dares doubt them. A careerist press has to join the chorus of condemnation.
Too many Americans seem to have such a personal stake in propping up the Big Lies about their country that they lash out at anyone who challenges them. They appear in denial about what their government has been doing to people. Is that denial to avoid feeling guilt? But the American people are not guilty of the crimes of government, only of identifying with government and of confusing their own interests with their leaders' interests by believing the lie that somehow they too benefit from militarism.
Until America grows up and faces the painful facts about what government has been up to it will never make the changes Obama is talking about. Without a frank, national self-examination, it won't give up militarism and cut defense spending to attend to the American people's critical domestic interests, such as alternative energy, health care, education and public transportation.
Rev. Wright may be wrong about some things, he may exaggerate, but he's spoken about some matters we can no longer ignore. There is a feeling of impending crisis in the air: energy and food shortages, a new war with Iran. Now is the time to speak out. More importantly, now is the time to question what we are being told. "
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
I have heard them and COMPLETELY disagree with you. Which is certainly not a surprise by any stretch...
Really!?!?
Would you care to provide us with expanded context transcriptions or videos that put these few comments into context? Since you've obviously obtained and listened to these sermons to put this loon in context.
quote:
"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."
quote:
When [Obama's] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."
quote:
I am happy to learn that the Nation of Islam's The Final Call, a newspaper that issues Louis Farrakhan's concerns regarding HIV/AIDS as genocide, has a direct link to our website. I applaud Minister Farrakhan, and a half dozen other Black leaders, who have grasped the truth about HIV/AIDS as a utilitarian population control plot, and have the guts to say it.
Any help would be appreciated.
Well...... in the "casting pearls before swine" catagory....
http://essence.typepad.com/news/2008/03/the-full-story.html
The full story behind Wright's 'God Damn America' sermonMarch 21, 2008
I just finished listening to the nearly 40-minute sermon Rev. Jeremiah Wright gave on
April 13, 2003, titled, "Confusing God and Government."For those of us watching and listening to the media in the last week, it is better known as the "God Damn America" sermon.
Wright's scriptural focus was Luke 19:37-44 (reading from the New Revised Standard Version).
In this sermon, Wright spoke about the military rule during biblical days, led by Pontius Pilate. It was clear, through his language, such as "occupying military brigade" that he was making an analogy to the war in Iraq.
"War does not make for peace," he said. "Fighting for peace is like raping for virginity.
"War does not make for peace. War only makes for escalating violence and a mindset to pay the enemy back by any means necessary," he said.
He then gets to the thesis of his sermon, saying, "y'all looking to the government for only what God can give. A lot of people confuse God with their government."Wright criticizes the Bush administration and it supporters for using Godly language to justify the war in Iraq. He equates using God in America as condoning the war in Iraq to the same perspective of Islamic fundamentalists.
"We can see clearly the confusion in the mind of a few Muslims, and please notice I did not say all Muslims, I said a few Muslims, who see Allah as condoning killing and killing any and all who don't believe what they don't believe. They call it jihad. We can see clearly the confusion in their minds, but we cannot see clearly what it is that we do. We call it crusade when we turn right around and say that our God condones the killing of innocent civilians as a necessary means to an end. WE say that God understand collateral damage. We say that God knows how to forgive friendly fire.
"We say that God will bless the shock and awe as we take over unilaterally another country, calling it a coalition because we've got three guys from Australia, going against the United Nations, going against the majority of Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world, making a pre-emptive strike in the name of God. We cannot see how what we are doing is the same thing is the same thing that Al-Qaeda is doing under a different color flag – calling on the name of a different God to sanction and approve our murder and our mayhem."He continues on his thesis of equating government with our God, saying that God sent the early settlers to America to take the country from Native Americans; ordained slavery; and that "we believe that God approves of 6 percent of the people on the face of this earth controlling all of the wealth on the face of this earth while the other 94 percent live in poverty and squalor while we give millions of tax breaks to the white rich."
He also criticizes the "lily white" G-7 nations for controlling the world's capital.
Then Wright speaks to:
1. Governments lie. "This government lied about their belief that all men were created equal. The truth is they believed that all white men were created equal. The truth is they did not even believe that white women were created equal, in creation nor civilization. The government had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to get white women the vote. Then the government had to pass an equal rights amendment to get equal protection under the law for women. The government still thinks a woman has no rights over her own body, and between Uncle Clarence (Thomas), who sexually harassed Anita Hill, and a closeted Klan court, that is a throwback to the 19th century, handpicked by Daddy Bush, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, between Clarence and that stacked court, they are about to un-do Roe vs. Wade, just like they are about to un-do affirmative action. The government lied in its founding documents and the government is still lying today. Governments lie."
"The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Governments lie. The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin. They wanted that resolution to get us in the Vietnam War. Governments lie. The government lied about Nelson Mandela and our CIA helped put him in prison and keep him there for 27 years. The South African government lied on Nelson Mandela. Governments lie.
"The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis. Governments lie. The government lied about bombing Cambodia and Richard Nixon stood in front of the camera, 'Let me make myself perfectly clear..." Governments lie. The government lied about the drugs for arms Contra scheme orchestrated by Oliver North, and then the government pardoned all the perpetrators so they could get better jobs in the government. Governments lie.
"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of people of color. Governments lie. The government lied about a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and a connection between 9.11.01 and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Governments lie.
"The government lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq being a threat to the United States peace. And guess what else? If they don't find them some weapons of mass destruction, they gonna do just like the LAPD, and plant the some weapons of mass destruction. Governments lie.
2. Governments change. He said long before the United States colonized the world, so did Egypt.
"All colonizers are not white. Turn to your neighbors and say that oppressors come in all colors."He then went back to the Bible and spoke about the changing of kings in Babylonia.
"Prior to Abraham Lincoln, the government in this country said it was legal to hold African in slavery in perpetuity...when Lincoln got in office, the government changed. Prior to the passing of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution, government defined African as slaves, as property. Property, people with no rights to be respected by any whites anywhere. The Supreme Court of the government, same court, granddaddy of the court that stole the 2000 election. Supreme court said in it's Dred Scott decision in the 1850s, no African anywhere in this country has any rights that any white person has to respect at any place, any time. That was the government's official position backed up by the Supreme Court – that's the judiciary; backed up by the executive branch – that's the president; backed up by the legislative branch and enforced by the military of the government. But I stop by to tell you tonight that government's change.
"Prior to Harry Truman's government, the military was segregated. But governments change.
"Prior to the Civil Rights and equal accommodation laws of the government in this country, there was backed segregation by the country, legal discrimination by the government, prohibited blacks from voting by the government, you had to eat and sit in separate places by the government, you had sit in different places from white folks because the government said so, and you had to buried in a separate cemetery. It was apartheid, American style, from the cradle to the grave, all because the government backed it up.
"But guess what? Governments change. Under Bill Clinton, we got a messed up welfare to work bill, but under Clinton blacks had an intelligent friend in the Oval Office. Oh, but governments change.
"The election was stolen. We went from an intelligent friend to a dumb Dixiecrat. A rich Republican who has never held a job in his life; is against affirmative action (and) against education – I guess he is; against healthcare, against benefits for his own military, and gives tax breaks to the wealthiest contributors to his campaign. Governments change. Sometimes for the good, and sometimes for the bad."
"Where governments change, God does not change. God is the same yesterday, today and forever more. That's what his name I Am means. He does not change.
God was against slavery on yesterday, and God, who does not change, is still against slavery today. God was a God of love yesterday, and God who does not change, is still a God of love today. God was a God of justice on yesterday, and God who does not change, is still a God of justice today.
"God does not change."3. He then speaks of the government in his Bible text and said the Romans failed. Then he said the British government failed even after it colonized the world. He said the Russian government failed. The Japanese government failed. The German government failed.
"And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent, she failed. She put them on reservations.
"When it came to putting her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in interment prison camps.
"When it came to putting the citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them on slave quarters. Put them on auction blocks. Put them in cotton fields. Put them in inferior schools. Put them in substandard housing. Put them scientific experiments. Put them in the lower paying jobs. Put them outside the equal protection of the law. Kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education, and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness.
"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three strike law and then wants us to sing God Bless America. Naw, naw, naw. Not God Bless America. God Damn America! That's in the Bible. For killing innocent people. God Damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God Damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and she is Supreme.
"The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent. Think about this. Think about this. For every one Oprah, a billionaire, you've got 5 million blacks that are out of work. For every one Colin Powell, a millionaire, you've got 10 million blacks who cannot read. For every one Condi-Skeezer Rice, you've got 1 million in prison. For every one Tiger Woods, who needs to get beat at the Masters, with his Cablanasian hips, playing on a course that discriminates against women, God has this way of brining you up short when you get to big for your Cablanasian britches. For every one Tiger Woods, we've got 10,000 black kids who will never see a golf course. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent."
"Tell your neighbor he's (going to) help us one last time. Turn back and say forgive him for the God Damn, that's in the Bible though. Blessings and curses is in the Bible. It's in the Bible."
Where government fail, God never fails. When God says it, it's done. God never fails. When God wills it, you better get out the way, 'cause God never fails. When God fixes it, oh believe me it's fixed. God never fails. Somebody right now, you think you can't make it, but I want you to know that you are more than a conqueror through Christ. You can do all things through Christ who strengthens you."
He then went on to talk about the salvation of Christians through the death of Jesus Christ. The sermon ended with a song proclaiming, "God never fails."
------------------------------------------------
I agree with about 80% of this sermon.
I agree that pig-headed, pin-headed lawyeristic BS artists who consistently subscribe to pro-republican dogma...... who wouldn't give a damn about anybody except their own selfishness.....
Are the very same people who play gotcha games with Rev Wright... an older generation black man who doesn't put up with YOUR crap, IPLAW, when it comes to his congregation.
Rev Wright was in the MARINE CORPS... I have much more respect for him over idiotic chicken hawks like Dick Cheney and George W. and the politically correct republican
Hoi palloi who insist that the only way you can be a patriot in this country is to be one of those
"I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free" craptistic bull mullarky...
"Amerika, Amerika, uber alles"...
Enough is enough. Not this time. Not this year.
In my years attending evangelical churches, I heard MANY THINGS I didn't agree with... and I stayed in the church for years, not because I agreed with statements like "Ronald Reagan is God's president" but the other things....
But of course, you won't believe me...
Once again, I've sung for catholic church on the southside of Chicago... I have a friend who taught English at Englewood HS... a school that is being shut down this year due to these "accountability standards" which do more harm than good in a part of Chicago where families have broken down...
Of course, according to the teachings of IPLAW, these people all brought it on themselves...
So, here's somebody else you won't believe either...
http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i30/30b00101.htm
From the issue dated April 11, 2008
Prophet and Pastor
To his former professor, congregant, and friend, Jeremiah Wright has been both
By MARTIN E. MARTY
Through the decades, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. has called me teacher, reminding me of the years when he earned a master's degree in theology and ministry at the University of Chicago — and friend. My wife and I and our guests have worshiped at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, where he recently completed a 36-year ministry.
Images of Wright's strident sermons, and his anger at the treatment of black people in the United States, appear constantly on the Internet and cable television, part of the latest controversy in our political-campaign season. His critics call Wright anti-American. Critics of his critics charge that the clips we hear and see have been taken out of context. But it is not the context of particular sermons that the public needs, as that of Trinity church, and, above all, its pastor.
In the early 1960s, at a time when many young people were being radicalized by the Vietnam War, Wright left college and volunteered to join the United States Marine Corps. After three years as a marine, he chose to serve three more as a naval medical technician, during which time he received several White House commendations. He came to Chicago to study not long after Martin Luther King Jr.'s murder in 1968, the U.S. bombing campaign in Cambodia in 1969, and the shooting of students at Kent State University in 1970.
Wright, like the gifted cohort of his fellow black students, was not content to blend into the academic woodwork. Then the associate dean of the Divinity School, I was informally delegated to talk to the black caucus. We learned that what Wright and his peers wanted was the intense academic and practical preparation for vocations that would make a difference, whether they chose to pursue a Ph.D. or the pastorate. Chicago's Divinity School focuses on what it calls "public ministry," which includes both conventional pastoral roles and carrying the message and work of the church to the public arena. Wright has since picked up numerous honorary doctorates, and served as an adjunct faculty member at several seminaries. But after divinity school, he accepted a call to serve then-struggling Trinity.
Trinity focuses on biblical teaching and preaching. It is a church where music stuns and uplifts, a church given to hospitality and promoting physical and spiritual healing, devoted to education, active in Chicago life, and one that keeps the world church in mind, with a special accent on African Christianity. The four S's charged against Wright — segregation, separatism, sectarianism, and superiority — don't stand up, as countless visitors can attest. I wish those whose vision has been distorted by sermon clips could have experienced what we and our white guests did when we worshiped there: feeling instantly at home.
Yes, while Trinity is "unapologetically Christian," as the second clause in its motto affirms, it is also, as the other clause announces, "unashamedly black." From its beginning, the church has made strenuous efforts to help black Christians overcome the shame they had so long been conditioned to experience. That its members and pastor are, in their own term, "Africentric" should not be more offensive than that synagogues should be "Judeocentric" or that Chicago's Irish parishes be "Celtic-centric." Wright and colleagues insist that no hierarchy of races is involved. People do not leave Trinity ready to beat up on white people; they are charged to make peace.
To the 10,000 members of Trinity, Jeremiah Wright was, until just a few months ago, "Pastor Wright." Metaphorically, pastor means shepherd. Like members of all congregations, the Trinity flock welcomes strong leadership for organization, prayer, and preaching. One-on-one ministry is not easy with thousands in the flock and when the pastor has national responsibilities, but the forms of worship make each participant feel recognized. Responding to the pastoral call to stand and be honored on Mother's Day, for instance, grandmothers, single mothers, stepmothers, foster mothers, gay-and-lesbian couples, all mothers stood when we visited. Wright asked how many believed that they were alive because of the church's health fairs. The members of the large pastoral staff know many hundreds of names, while hundreds of lay people share the ministry.
Now, for the hard business: the sermons, which have been mercilessly chipped into for wearying television clips. While Wright's sermons were pastoral — my wife and I have always been awed to hear the Christian Gospel parsed for our personal lives — they were also prophetic. At the university, we used to remark, half lightheartedly, that this Jeremiah was trying to live up to his namesake, the seventh-century B.C. prophet. Though Jeremiah of old did not "curse" his people of Israel, Wright, as a biblical scholar, could point out that the prophets Hosea and Micah did. But the Book of Jeremiah, written by numbers of authors, is so full of blasts and quasi curses — what biblical scholars call "imprecatory topoi" — that New England preachers invented a sermonic form called "the jeremiad," a style revived in some Wrightian shouts.
In the end, however, Jeremiah was the prophet of hope, and that note of hope is what attracts the multiclass membership at Trinity and significant television audiences. Both Jeremiahs gave the people work to do: to advance the missions of social justice and mercy that improve the lot of the suffering. For a sample, read Jeremiah 29, where the prophet's letter to the exiles in Babylon exhorts them to settle down and "seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile." Or listen to many a Jeremiah Wright sermon.
One may properly ask whether or how Jeremiah Wright — or anyone else — experiences a prophetic call. Back when American radicals wanted to be called prophets, I heard Saul Bellow say (and, I think, later saw it in writing): "Being a prophet is nice work if you can get it, but sooner or later you have to mention God." Wright mentioned God sooner. My wife and I recall but a single overtly political pitch. Wright wanted 2,000 letters of protest sent to the Chicago mayor's office about a public-library policy. Of course, if we had gone more often, in times of profound tumult, we would have heard much more. The United Church of Christ is a denomination that has taken raps for being liberal — for example for its 50th anniversary "God is still speaking" campaign and its pledge to be open and affirming to all, including gay people. In its lineage are Jonathan Edwards and Reinhold and Richard Niebuhr, America's three most-noted theologians; the Rev. King was much at home there.
Friendship develops through many gestures and shared delights (in the Marty case, stops for sinfully rich barbecue after evening services), and people across the economic spectrum can attest to the generosity of the Wright family.
It would be unfair to Wright to gloss over his abrasive — to say the least — edges, so, in the "Nobody's Perfect" column, I'll register some criticisms. To me, Trinity's honoring of Minister Louis Farrakhan was abhorrent and indefensible, and Wright's fantasies about the U.S. government's role in spreading AIDS distracting and harmful. He, himself, is also aware of the now-standard charge by some African-American clergy who say he is a victim of cultural lag, overinfluenced by the terrible racial situation when he was formed.
Having said that, and reserving the right to offer more criticisms, I've been too impressed by the way Wright preaches the Christian Gospel to break with him. Those who were part of his ministry for years — school superintendents, nurses, legislators, teachers, laborers, the unemployed, the previously shunned and shamed, the anxious — are not going to turn their backs on their pastor and prophet.
Martin E. Marty is a professor emeritus at the University of Chicago Divinity School and a panelist for On Faith, of Washingtonpost.com. His most recent book is The Christian World: A Global History (Modern Library, 2008).
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
I agree with about 80% of this sermon.
I feel sorry for you then. To say that you agree with 80% of this shows how gullible you really are. I'm not going to tackle these individually, but all have been analyzed previously and the vast majority of his accusations are absolutely baseless.
quote:
I agree that pig-headed, pin-headed lawyeristic BS artists who consistently subscribe to pro-republican dogma...... who wouldn't give a damn about anybody except their own selfishness.....
What the hell does this have to do with anything? Why not just call me a poopoohead? It would have saved you some time.
quote:
Are the very same people who play gotcha games with Rev Wright... an older generation black man who doesn't put up with YOUR crap, IPLAW, when it comes to his congregation.
Again, what the hell does this mean? Why do I care if Wright wants to "put up" with my crap?
quote:
Rev Wright was in the MARINE CORPS... I have much more respect for him over idiotic chicken hawks like Dick Cheney and George W. and the politically correct republican Hoi palloi who insist that the only way you can be a patriot in this country is to be one of those "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free" craptistic bull mullarky... "Amerika, Amerika, uber alles"...
Who cares if he was a Marine? Timothy McVeigh was a decorated soldier...
You criticize the right for bestowing honor on servicemen, but use the same tactic to justify giving this loon a pass, sounds a bit duplicitous to me.
quote:
Enough is enough. Not this time. Not this year.
Okay...
quote:
In my years attending evangelical churches, I heard MANY THINGS I didn't agree with... and I stayed in the church for years, not because I agreed with statements like "Ronald Reagan is God's president" but the other things....
There's a difference between comments you "may not agree with" and nutjob conspiracy theories (Govt creating AIDS for genocide) being preached from the pulpit. Would you stay in a church where the pastor was a 9/11 Truther and preached it from the pulpit? I doubt it.
quote:
But of course, you won't believe me...
I don't need to. I can evaluate and analyze the situation for myself as are other Americans.
Obama's dropping in the polls and for good reason.
IPLaw, Define "other Americans".
Are they the ones who elected Dumbya?
Are they the ones with style, composure and class?
Are they the "other Americans" with insight, maturity, and self perception that are accepting and comfortable with what they see?
Or are they busy each day listening to fright wing nut radio meatheads that spew Wright's "goddamn America" voice over and over without a mention of Hagee hate and McCaint endorsements?
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
IPLaw, Define "other Americans".
Are they the ones who elected Dumbya?
Are they the ones with style, composure and class?
Are they the "other Americans" with insight, maturity, and self perception that are accepting and comfortable with what they see?
Or are they busy each day listening to fright wing nut radio meatheads that spew Wright's "goddamn America" voice over and over without a mention of Hagee hate and McCaint endorsements?
According to a New York Times/CBS News poll, 51 per cent of Democratic voters now say they expect Obama to win their party's nomination. That's an 18 point-slide from a month ago when 69 per cent said they expected Obama to take on Republican John McCain in the November presidential election.YOUR party members are shrinking back from him. Those are the "other Americans" I'm speaking of. 18% of Democratic voters are being turned off by something about Obama...geez I wonder what that something is?
As far as Hagee, I know your trying your best, but McCain didn't sit in the pews of fatty's church for 20 years.
If we're going to impute guilt by endorsement, didn't Obama get endorsed by Farrakhan?
One more question Ruff...
Obama has now come out and denounced Wright for a second time saying his comments are hateful and divisive. Do you agree with Obama or not?
It's obvious you ignore Ruff's posts. We know you can't get past the source of most my posts.
Prostituting oneself to Intolerant Right Wing Fundamentalist ministers is far worse than sitting in the pews listening to a now and then rant.
I belong to two congregations. Both have upset me numerous times over 40 years. I'm still attending there occasionally for the companionship of my friends I grew up with and the congregation's need for participation.
This Wright business is mindless swift boating shenanigans that will backfire on the republijerks big come November. Recall, we will not be fooled again.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
It's obvious you ignore Ruff's posts. We know you can't get past the source of most my posts.
Prostituting oneself to Intolerant Right Wing Fundamentalist ministers is far worse than sitting in the pews listening to a now and then rant.
I belong to two congregations. Both have upset me numerous times over 40 years. I'm still attending there occasionally for the companionship of my friends I grew up with and the congregation's need for participation.
This Wright business is mindless swift boating shenanigans that will backfire on the republijerks big come November. Recall, we will not be fooled again.
That's funny, the "republijerks" have refused to comment on it. It's all within the same party. Hillary's fundraiser invites Wright to speak at the press club, then she pounces. McCain chooses not to comment.
I know it's your nature to blame everything on republicans and offer some goofy nomenclature and perhaps a moonbat article or two, but this has nothing to do with republicans or anyone outside of the Democrat party. You guys are fighting your own internal war now.
But you should be happy! 3 SDs have announced support for your candidate today.
quote:
t's obvious you ignore Ruff's posts.
Really? Would you like to expand on this FauxTurd? I'm interested in what I've ignored.
Are you going to address my "other Americans" post or are poll numbers and logical arguments too much for AOX?
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
It's obvious you ignore Ruff's posts. We know you can't get past the source of most my posts.
Prostituting oneself to Intolerant Right Wing Fundamentalist ministers is far worse than sitting in the pews listening to a now and then rant.
I belong to two congregations. Both have upset me numerous times over 40 years. I'm still attending there occasionally for the companionship of my friends I grew up with and the congregation's need for participation.
This Wright business is mindless swift boating shenanigans that will backfire on the republijerks big come November. Recall, we will not be fooled again.
That's funny, the "republijerks" have refused to comment on it. It's all within the same party. Hillary's fundraiser invites Wright to speak at the press club, then she pounces. McCain chooses not to comment.
I know it's your nature to blame everything on republicans and offer some goofy nomenclature and perhaps a moonbat article or two, but this has nothing to do with republicans or anyone outside of the Democrat party. You guys are fighting your own internal war now.
But you should be happy! 3 SDs have announced support for your candidate today.
Oh garbage. The republicans are there constantly keeping the fire going in the background. Give me a break. And Billary's own staff seems to be laying the kindle down. Like two little mischievous children with a strong wind, dry grass, and a sense of being evil.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
t's obvious you ignore Ruff's posts.
Really? Would you like to expand on this FauxTurd? I'm interested in what I've ignored.
Are you going to address my "other Americans" post or are poll numbers and logical arguments too much for AOX?
Only %29 of republicans are happy with their own party. That makes you a minority.
Only 2% of readers believe your posts when you have no support for your numbers. Not that I doubt them, just can't find that 29% number anywhere and well, you generally pull numbers and ideas from thin air and present them as fact.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
t's obvious you ignore Ruff's posts.
Really? Would you like to expand on this FauxTurd? I'm interested in what I've ignored.
Are you going to address my "other Americans" post or are poll numbers and logical arguments too much for AOX?
Only %29 of republicans are happy with their own party. That makes you a minority.
Still not answering the question? No real surprises here. I don't blame you though, if I debated as poorly as you I'd be happy being a drive-by bomb thrower too.
ip, I spent 6 or 7 posts trying to get him to address a topic he raised. He posted a thread then refused to defend it's content. Facts, proof, argument... it doesn't really matter.
Facts he doesn't like are just lies.
Proof he doesn't like can easily be countered with opinion.
And you don't need to argue if your opinion an be supported by other opinions and a topic change ends the discussion in your favor.
Here, let me help. You lie. I win.
quote:
You lie. I win.
Go it. I guess he's no FauxTurd, he's the real deal.
Maybe I give AOX too much credit when I actually think he's going to answer a question or respond in a meaningful way.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
One more question Ruff...
Obama has now come out and denounced Wright for a second time saying his comments are hateful and divisive. Do you agree with Obama or not?
How 'bout I answer a question with another question or two, Mr. Lawyerspeak:
Did Senator Obama denounce 100% of Wright's comments and previous sermons as "hateful and divisive"?
If your pastor made his views known that "global warming is a hoax," would you leave the church? Would you denounce or disown that pastor?
If your pastor made statements that "the United Nations is an instrument of the devil," would you stay at that church?
OBAMA'S QUOTES ON WRIGHT:
"When he states and then amplifies such ridiculous propositions as the U.S. government somehow being involved in AIDS; when he suggests that Minister Farrakhan somehow represents one of the greatest voices of the 20th and 21st century; when he equates the United States' wartime efforts with terrorism, then there are no excuses. They offend me, they rightly offend all Americans, and they should be denounced. And that's what I'm doing very clearly and unequivocally here today."Obama has worked in Washington as a US Senator and Springfield, IL (170 miles from the southside of Chicago) as a state senator... how often in the past 10-15 years do you think he attended that church?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2zvD4FyC1M
"What did YOUR pastor preach on last week..."Enjoy your witch-hunt... /sarcasm.
--Ruf
If you, Mr IPLAW feel sorry for me because I believe 80% of what I've heard in Rev Wright's sermons heard in their entirety.... well, right back at ya'....
Here's my 80% in boldface I believe... and 20% I disagree with in italics...
1. Governments lie. "This government lied about their belief that all men were created equal. The truth is they believed that all white men were created equal. The truth is they did not even believe that white women were created equal, in creation nor civilization. The government had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to get white women the vote. Then the government had to pass an equal rights amendment to get equal protection under the law for women. The government still thinks a woman has no rights over her own body, and between Uncle Clarence (Thomas), who sexually harassed Anita Hill, and a closeted Klan court, that is a throwback to the 19th century, handpicked by Daddy Bush, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, between Clarence and that stacked court, they are about to un-do Roe vs. Wade, just like they are about to un-do affirmative action. The government lied in its founding documents and the government is still lying today. Governments lie."
"The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Governments lie. The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin. They wanted that resolution to get us in the Vietnam War. Governments lie. The government lied about Nelson Mandela and our CIA helped put him in prison and keep him there for 27 years. The South African government lied on Nelson Mandela. Governments lie.
"The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis. Governments lie. The government lied about bombing Cambodia and Richard Nixon stood in front of the camera, 'Let me make myself perfectly clear..." Governments lie. The government lied about the drugs for arms Contra scheme orchestrated by Oliver North, and then the government pardoned all the perpetrators so they could get better jobs in the government. Governments lie.
"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of people of color. Governments lie. The government lied about a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and a connection between 9.11.01 and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Governments lie.
"The government lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq being a threat to the United States peace. And guess what else? If they don't find them some weapons of mass destruction, they gonna do just like the LAPD, and plant the some weapons of mass destruction. Governments lie.
Hmmmmm.... that's 10 boldfaced, with 3 statements in italic-- 10 out of 13.... so, I guess when it comes to Rev Wright's views that "governments lie," I guess I'm just under 80% in agreement with him... but I would NEVER vote for him for president.
er, uh... oh, wait... he's not the one running... [:O]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
If you, Mr IPLAW feel sorry for me because I believe 80% of what I've heard in Rev Wright's sermons heard in their entirety.... well, right back at ya'....
Here's my 80% in boldface I believe... and 20% I disagree with in italics...
1. Governments lie. "This government lied about their belief that all men were created equal. The truth is they believed that all white men were created equal. The truth is they did not even believe that white women were created equal, in creation nor civilization. The government had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to get white women the vote. Then the government had to pass an equal rights amendment to get equal protection under the law for women. The government still thinks a woman has no rights over her own body, and between Uncle Clarence (Thomas), who sexually harassed Anita Hill, and a closeted Klan court, that is a throwback to the 19th century, handpicked by Daddy Bush, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, between Clarence and that stacked court, they are about to un-do Roe vs. Wade, just like they are about to un-do affirmative action. The government lied in its founding documents and the government is still lying today. Governments lie."
"The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Governments lie. The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin. They wanted that resolution to get us in the Vietnam War. Governments lie. The government lied about Nelson Mandela and our CIA helped put him in prison and keep him there for 27 years. The South African government lied on Nelson Mandela. Governments lie.
"The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis. Governments lie. The government lied about bombing Cambodia and Richard Nixon stood in front of the camera, 'Let me make myself perfectly clear..." Governments lie. The government lied about the drugs for arms Contra scheme orchestrated by Oliver North, and then the government pardoned all the perpetrators so they could get better jobs in the government. Governments lie.
"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of people of color. Governments lie. The government lied about a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and a connection between 9.11.01 and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Governments lie.
"The government lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq being a threat to the United States peace. And guess what else? If they don't find them some weapons of mass destruction, they gonna do just like the LAPD, and plant the some weapons of mass destruction. Governments lie.
Hmmmmm.... that's 10 boldfaced, with 2 statements in italic-- 10 out of 12.... so, I guess when it comes to Rev Wright's views that "governments lie," I actually believe more than 80% of what Wright says... but I would NEVER vote for him for president.
er, uh... oh, wait... he's not the one running... [:O]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lie6tJwDEhE&feature=related
Ruf, this is going to ruin your chances of being elected president!
Well, if we are going to be technical:
1)
quote:
The government lied about Pearl Harbor. They knew the Japanese were going to attack.
That is unsubstantiated. In hindsight, the government
should have known based on messages that were intercepted and not interpreted as well as other data that was not relayed in a timely manner. But the grand conspiracy that they knew and invited the attack is simply not true.
If they did, we could have set the fleet out to sea and had our excuse for war with much less of a threat of losing said war (remember, we lost the Pacific war for the first year and a half).
2.
quote:
The government lied about a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and a connection between 9.11.01 and Operation Iraqi Freedom.
A lie is a statement known to be false. I do not believe it has been proven that it was a lie (BUSH LIED!). It has been proven that our intelligence was wrong and, perhaps, there was a willingness to give it the bennefit of the doubt so long as it proved what we wanted it to.
But that is not within the definition of a lie.
3.
quote:
The government lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq being a threat to the United States peace.
See above.
But in this reference, Russia, France, Israel and the UN also had the same intelligence that the US had. It turns out it was totally wrong, but that does not make it a lie.
- - -
It also annoys me that he hedges his bets and said "if they don't find weapons, they will plant them." gee, you can't be wrong. If they don't find them they lied, if they do, they are cheaters who lie.
Governments lie. No need to stretch the definition to make that point.
It doesn't pay to buy into conspiracy theories Ruff. Look at CFs response to these loony allegations to see why.
BTW, are you going to keep ignoring those other two quotes I provided to you? There's some good stuff in there, unless you actually believe about 80% of what Farrakhan believes is true...
And no one is laboring under the mistaken belief that Wright is running for president. It's a matter of judgment, or lack thereof on your candidate's behalf.
Obama stated himself it's a valid political issue.
Obama has denounced this jackass in public, twice.
Is Obama wrong or are you?
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
It doesn't pay to buy into conspiracy theories Ruff. Look at CFs response to these loony allegations to see why.
BTW, are you going to keep ignoring those other two quotes I provided to you? There's some good stuff in there, unless you actually believe about 80% of what Farrakhan believes is true...
And no one is laboring under the mistaken belief that Wright is running for president. It's a matter of judgment, or lack thereof on your candidate's behalf.
Obama stated himself it's a valid political issue.
Obama has denounced this jackass in public, twice.
Is Obama wrong or are you?
Hardly a peep over this creep.....Hagee is a reason why it will be a valid political issue....
This is the man John McCain is proud to be endorsed by?
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/5/1/11248/20491
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
It doesn't pay to buy into conspiracy theories Ruff. Look at CFs response to these loony allegations to see why.
well, sounds like CF would be in agreement if Rev Wright replaced the word "lie" with the word "mislead" --- more lawyeristic twisting in the wind...
quote:
BTW, are you going to keep ignoring those other two quotes I provided to you? There's some good stuff in there, unless you actually believe about 80% of what Farrakhan believes is true...
which quotes? since you've given so many...
quote:
And no one is laboring under the mistaken belief that Wright is running for president. It's a matter of judgment, or lack thereof on your candidate's behalf.
Obama stated himself it's a valid political issue.
Obama has denounced this jackass in public, twice.
Is Obama wrong or are you?
Gee, did you get your talking points from Fox News?
This is not a jackass....... IMHO, YOU are, IPLAW.... been that way for along time... so, let's see, I denounce you.... [}:)]
Classic Lee Atwater question: Is Obama wrong or are you?
Let's see.... I'm trying to explain how Obama could attend that church for 20 years... I don't go to a church to hear a pastor parse the differences between the government "lying" versus the government "misleading" folks...
Rev Wright deserves credit for motivating Obama to do something better with his life: the audacity of hope...
Obama never called his former pastor a "jackass"... you did.
And I never said I completely agreed w/Wright... just that if you agree with most of what your pastor says, odds are you will stay at that church... I know from my own experience...
The republican hoi palloi, naturally, will insist that Obama should have said the same things about Wright weeks/months/years ago... which is, of course, why Obama can't be trusted as president....
classic.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/135392
CAMPAIGN 2008
Something Wasn't Wright
Why Oprah Winfrey left Rev. Jeremiah Wright's church.
By Allison Samuels | NEWSWEEK
May 12, 2008 Issue
For any spiritually minded, up-wardly mobile African-American living in Chicago in the mid-1980s, the Trinity United Church of Christ was—and still is—the place to be. That's what drew Oprah Winfrey, a recent Chicago transplant, to the church in 1984. She was eager to bond with the movers and shakers in her new hometown's black community. But she also admired Trinity United's ambitious outreach work with the poor, and she took pride in upholding her Southern grandmother's legacy of involvement with traditional African-American houses of worship. Winfrey was a member of Trinity United from 1984 to 1986, and she continued to attend off and on into the early to the mid-1990s. But then she stopped. A major reason—but by no means the only reason—was the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
According to two sources, Winfrey was never comfortable with the tone of Wright's more incendiary sermons, which she knew had the power to damage her standing as America's favorite daytime talk-show host. "Oprah is a businesswoman, first and foremost," said one longtime friend, who requested anonymity when discussing Winfrey's personal sentiments. "She's always been aware that her audience is very mainstream, and doing anything to offend them just wouldn't be smart. She's been around black churches all her life, so Reverend Wright's anger-filled message didn't surprise her. But it just wasn't what she was looking for in a church." Oprah's decision to distance herself came as a surprise to Wright, who told Christianity Today in 2002 that when he would "run into her socially ... she would say, 'Here's my pastor!' " (Winfrey declined to comment. A Harpo Productions spokesperson would not confirm her reasons for leaving the church.)
But Winfrey also had spiritual reasons for the parting. In conversations at the time with a former business associate, who also asked for anonymity, Winfrey cited her fatigue with organized religion and a desire to be involved with a more inclusive ministry. In time, she found one: her own. "There is the Church of Oprah now," said her longtime friend, with a laugh. "She has her own following."
Friends of Sen. Barack Obama, whose relationship with Wright has rocked his bid for the White House, insist that it would be unfair to compare Winfrey's decision to leave Trinity United with his own decision to stay. "[His] reasons for attending Trinity were totally different,'' said one campaign adviser, who declined to be named discussing the Illinois senator's sentiments. "Early on, he was in search of his identity as an African-American and, more importantly, as an African-American man. Reverend Wright and other male members of the church were instrumental in helping him understand the black experience in America. Winfrey wasn't going for that. She's secure in her blackness, so that didn't have a hold on her.'' And while Winfrey, who has endorsed Obama and campaigned on his behalf, had long understood the perils of a close association with Wright, friends say she was blindsided by the pastor's personal assault on Obama. "She felt that Wright would never do anything to hurt a man who looked up to him as a father figure," said her close friend. "She also never thought he'd intentionally hurt someone trying to make history and change the lives of so many people.''
© 2008
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
http://www.newsweek.com/id/135392
CAMPAIGN 2008
Something Wasn't Wright
Why Oprah Winfrey left Rev. Jeremiah Wright's church.
By Allison Samuels | NEWSWEEK
May 12, 2008 Issue
For any spiritually minded, up-wardly mobile African-American living in Chicago in the mid-1980s, the Trinity United Church of Christ was—and still is—the place to be. That's what drew Oprah Winfrey, a recent Chicago transplant, to the church in 1984. She was eager to bond with the movers and shakers in her new hometown's black community. But she also admired Trinity United's ambitious outreach work with the poor, and she took pride in upholding her Southern grandmother's legacy of involvement with traditional African-American houses of worship. Winfrey was a member of Trinity United from 1984 to 1986, and she continued to attend off and on into the early to the mid-1990s. But then she stopped. A major reason—but by no means the only reason—was the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
According to two sources, Winfrey was never comfortable with the tone of Wright's more incendiary sermons, which she knew had the power to damage her standing as America's favorite daytime talk-show host. "Oprah is a businesswoman, first and foremost," said one longtime friend, who requested anonymity when discussing Winfrey's personal sentiments. "She's always been aware that her audience is very mainstream, and doing anything to offend them just wouldn't be smart. She's been around black churches all her life, so Reverend Wright's anger-filled message didn't surprise her. But it just wasn't what she was looking for in a church." Oprah's decision to distance herself came as a surprise to Wright, who told Christianity Today in 2002 that when he would "run into her socially ... she would say, 'Here's my pastor!' " (Winfrey declined to comment. A Harpo Productions spokesperson would not confirm her reasons for leaving the church.)
But Winfrey also had spiritual reasons for the parting. In conversations at the time with a former business associate, who also asked for anonymity, Winfrey cited her fatigue with organized religion and a desire to be involved with a more inclusive ministry. In time, she found one: her own. "There is the Church of Oprah now," said her longtime friend, with a laugh. "She has her own following."
Friends of Sen. Barack Obama, whose relationship with Wright has rocked his bid for the White House, insist that it would be unfair to compare Winfrey's decision to leave Trinity United with his own decision to stay. "[His] reasons for attending Trinity were totally different,'' said one campaign adviser, who declined to be named discussing the Illinois senator's sentiments. "Early on, he was in search of his identity as an African-American and, more importantly, as an African-American man. Reverend Wright and other male members of the church were instrumental in helping him understand the black experience in America. Winfrey wasn't going for that. She's secure in her blackness, so that didn't have a hold on her.'' And while Winfrey, who has endorsed Obama and campaigned on his behalf, had long understood the perils of a close association with Wright, friends say she was blindsided by the pastor's personal assault on Obama. "She felt that Wright would never do anything to hurt a man who looked up to him as a father figure," said her close friend. "She also never thought he'd intentionally hurt someone trying to make history and change the lives of so many people.''
© 2008
Maybe the one positive outcome by bringing an extremely bright spotlight onto Obama's 20-year adherence to the Liberation Theology movement, and the associated Black Theology belief system, will reveal the following glaring fact:
The leadership of the "Black Community" is absolutely abysmal, and has been holding back that social group for decades.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
well, sounds like CF would be in agreement if Rev Wright replaced the word "lie" with the word "mislead" --- more lawyeristic twisting in the wind...
You may want to re-read his post.
quote:
which quotes? since you've given so many...
Since you're either too lazy to look at the top of the page or just avoiding them...or maybe just one too many soccer balls to the head? Here you go:
quote:
When [Obama's] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."
quote:
I am happy to learn that the Nation of Islam's The Final Call, a newspaper that issues Louis Farrakhan's concerns regarding HIV/AIDS as genocide, has a direct link to our website. I applaud Minister Farrakhan, and a half dozen other Black leaders, who have grasped the truth about HIV/AIDS as a utilitarian population control plot, and have the guts to say it.
*******
Finally, I never said Obama called him a jackass, so that's either poor reading/comprehension on your part. I called him a jackass, and stand by it.
As far as Wright, let me get this straight, America is a hateful, evil place controlled by whitey, where the government is trying to kill off black people by injecting them with AIDS...
This garbage not only passes for a sermon, but simultaneously inspires a message of "hope?" If so, count me out, no thanks...
Finally, using terms like "hoi palloi," doesn't impress anyone around here, especially when you misspell it. M'kay?
Rev. Wright was/is just the mouth piece for the type of Christianity Barack Obama and his wife believe.
"The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone's book, Black Power and Black Theology---We [African Americans] were always seen as objects. Trinity Church of Christ"
People should be quite concerned about a potential president who believes in what many would call a false Christian doctrine. This doctrine combines the teachings of Martin Luther King Jr., the Civil Rights movement with the Black Power Movement/Malcom X (being black in a white racist society) as the base. Weave in Biblical verses around it and you've got Black Liberation Theology!
Distancing himself from Rev. Wright isn't the problem. The real problem is the type of Christianity Obama believes.
"Black Theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the Black community." If God is not for us and AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE... James Cone
Listen to James Cones for yourself. This is not main-stream Christianity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1X5sZ6Q4Fw
quote:
Originally posted by Derailed
People should be quite concerned about a potential president who believes in what many would call a false Christian doctrine.
, said the pot to the kettle. You don't see any danger in what the "Right" side of the church is saying?
definition of jackass-- see IPLAW post above.
Mmmmkay.
Hoi polloi... H-O-I...P-A-L-L-O-I... [:o)]
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Mr. Welch: So whoever wins the school bee today, gets to represent Crenshaw at the district bee next month.
Akeelah: Why would anybody want to represent a school where they can't even put doors on the toilet stalls?
[coughing]
Mr. Welch: Akeelah, if we can't show students can perform were not going to have money for books let alone bathroom doors.
[pause]
Mr. Welch: Now I want you to do the bee today, okay?
Akeelah: So everyone can call me a freak and a brainiac? No I ain't down for no spelling bee.
Mr. Welch: Well, maybe you'd be down for spending the rest of the semester in detention for all your absences?
------------------------------------------------
It's been a long, long time... since I placed second in the school spelling bee at Columbus Elem. on 27th and Garnett... [:D]
So, I guess partisan Republicans don't do nuance anymore, do they?!? Which kinda explains why we got Bush from the Republcans instead of Dick Lugar...
I completely disagree/deny/express disgust with Wright's conspiracy theories about AIDS and his respect for Farrakhan...... but if I were hiring workers for a business in the Chicago loop, I'd hire some of Farrakhan's black-muslim congregation in a heartbeat-- they are disciplined, "driven," hard working, take pride in their work, show up to work on time every day... but generally have a chip on their shoulders...
"The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis."
---This ISN'T a conspiracy theory... this is fact... http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/jul/tuskegee/
So, it doesn't surprise me that rumors would fly on the southside of Chicago in the black church about AIDS (I've heard them before, and not from blacks who went to Wright's church)-- this conspiracy theory also provides cover for bisexual black men... but it's not much different from hearing a Tulsa-area pastor in a baptist or pentecostal church talk of the United Nations paving the way for one-world government or characterizing the catholic church as the "whore of babylon" spoken of in the book of Revelation.. I find most conspiracy theories pretty dubious...
Why can't the CONSERVATIVE ELITE be demonized as effectively as the so-called "liberal elite"???
The leadership of "The White Community" ? No, not even spiritually. Just John McCaint's spititual whore?
The All-White Elephant in the Room
By FRANK RICH
Published: May 4,2008
"What you'll find is a white televangelist, the Rev. John Hagee, lecturing in front of an enormous diorama. Wielding a pointer, he pokes at the image of a woman with Pamela Anderson-sized breasts, her hand raising a golden chalice. The woman is "the Great Whore," Mr. Hagee explains, and she is drinking "the blood of the Jewish people." That's because the Great Whore represents "the Roman Church," which, in his view, has thirsted for Jewish blood throughout history, from the Crusades to the Holocaust.
Mr. Hagee is not a fringe kook but the pastor of a Texas megachurch. On Feb. 27, he stood with John McCain and endorsed him over the religious conservatives' favorite, Mike Huckabee, who was then still in the race.
Are we really to believe that neither Mr. McCain nor his camp knew anything then about Mr. Hagee's views? This particular YouTube video — far from the only one — was posted on Jan. 1, nearly two months before the Hagee-McCain press conference. Mr. Hagee appears on multiple religious networks, including twice daily on the largest, Trinity Broadcasting, which reaches 75 million homes. Any 12-year-old with a laptop could have vetted this preacher in 30 seconds, tops.
Since then, Mr. McCain has been shocked to learn that his clerical ally has made many other outrageous statements. Mr. Hagee, it's true, did not blame the American government for concocting AIDS. But he did say that God created Hurricane Katrina to punish New Orleans for its sins, particularly a scheduled "homosexual parade there on the Monday that Katrina came."
Mr. Hagee didn't make that claim in obscure circumstances, either. He broadcast it on one of America's most widely heard radio programs, "Fresh Air" on NPR, back in September 2006. He reaffirmed it in a radio interview less than two weeks ago. Only after a reporter asked Mr. McCain about this Katrina homily on April 24 did the candidate brand it as "nonsense" and the preacher retract it.
Mr. McCain says he does not endorse any of Mr. Hagee's calumnies, any more than Barack Obama endorses Mr. Wright's. But those who try to give Mr. McCain a pass for his embrace of a problematic preacher have a thin case. It boils down to this: Mr. McCain was not a parishioner for 20 years at Mr. Hagee's church.
That defense implies, incorrectly, that Mr. McCain was a passive recipient of this bigot's endorsement. In fact, by his own account, Mr. McCain sought out Mr. Hagee, who is perhaps best known for trying to drum up a pre-emptive "holy war" with Iran. (This preacher's rantings may tell us more about Mr. McCain's policy views than Mr. Wright's tell us about Mr. Obama's.) Even after Mr. Hagee's Catholic bashing bubbled up in the mainstream media, Mr. McCain still did not reject and denounce him, as Mr. Obama did an unsolicited endorser, Louis Farrakhan, at the urging of Tim Russert and Hillary Clinton. Mr. McCain instead told George Stephanopoulos two Sundays ago that while he condemns any "anti-anything" remarks by Mr. Hagee, he is still "glad to have his endorsement."
I wonder if Mr. McCain would have given the same answer had Mr. Stephanopoulos confronted him with the graphic video of the pastor in full "Great Whore" glory. But Mr. McCain didn't have to fear so rude a transgression. Mr. Hagee's videos have never had the same circulation on television as Mr. Wright's. A sonorous white preacher spouting venom just doesn't have the telegenic zing of a theatrical black man.
Perhaps that's why virtually no one has rebroadcast the highly relevant prototype for Mr. Wright's fiery claim that 9/11 was America's chickens "coming home to roost." That would be the Sept. 13, 2001, televised exchange between Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, who blamed the attacks on America's abortionists, feminists, gays and A.C.L.U. lawyers. (Mr. Wright blamed the attacks on America's foreign policy.) Had that video re-emerged in the frenzied cable-news rotation, Mr. McCain might have been asked to explain why he no longer calls these preachers "agents of intolerance" and chose to cozy up to Mr. Falwell by speaking at his Liberty University in 2006.
None of this is to say that two wacky white preachers make a Wright right. It is entirely fair for any voter to weigh Mr. Obama's long relationship with his pastor in assessing his fitness for office. It is also fair to weigh Mr. Obama's judgment in handling this personal and political crisis as it has repeatedly boiled over. But whatever that verdict, it is disingenuous to pretend that there isn't a double standard operating here. If we're to judge black candidates on their most controversial associates — and how quickly, sternly and completely they disown them — we must judge white politicians by the same yardstick.
When Rudy Giuliani, still a viable candidate, successfully courted Pat Robertson for an endorsement last year, few replayed Mr. Robertson's greatest past insanities. Among them is his best-selling 1991 tome, "The New World Order," which peddled some of the same old dark conspiracy theories about "European bankers" (who just happened to be named Warburg, Schiff and Rothschild) that Mr. Farrakhan has trafficked in. Nor was Mr. Giuliani ever seriously pressed to explain why his cronies on the payroll at Giuliani Partners included a priest barred from the ministry by his Long Island diocese in 2002 following allegations of sexual abuse. Much as Mr. Wright officiated at the Obamas' wedding, so this priest officiated at (one of) Mr. Giuliani's. Did you even hear about it?
There is not just a double standard for black and white politicians at play in too much of the news media and political establishment, but there is also a glaring double standard for our political parties. The Clintons and Mr. Obama are always held accountable for their racial stands, as they should be, but the elephant in the room of our politics is rarely acknowledged: In the 21st century, the so-called party of Lincoln does not have a single African-American among its collective 247 senators and representatives in Washington. Yes, there are appointees like Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice, but, as we learned during the Mark Foley scandal, even gay men may hold more G.O.P. positions of power than blacks.
A near half-century after the civil rights acts of the 1960s, this is quite an achievement. Yet the holier-than-thou politicians and pundits on the right passing shrill moral judgment over every Democratic racial skirmish are almost never asked to confront or even acknowledge the racial dysfunction in their own house. In our mainstream political culture, this de facto apartheid is simply accepted as an intractable given, unworthy of notice, and just too embarrassing to mention aloud in polite Beltway company. Those who dare are instantly accused of "political correctness" or "reverse racism."
An all-white Congressional delegation doesn't happen by accident. It's the legacy of race cards that have been dealt since the birth of the Southern strategy in the Nixon era. No one knows this better than Mr. McCain, whose own adopted daughter of color was the subject of a vicious smear in his party's South Carolina primary of 2000.
This year Mr. McCain has called for a respectful (i.e., non-race-baiting) campaign and has gone so far as to criticize (ineffectually) North Carolina's Republican Party for running a Wright-demonizing ad in that state's current primary. Mr. McCain has been posing (awkwardly) with black people in his tour of "forgotten" America. Speaking of Katrina in New Orleans, he promised that "never again" would a federal recovery effort be botched on so grand a scale.
This is all surely sincere, and a big improvement over Mitt Romney's dreams of his father marching with the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Up to a point. Here, too, there's a double standard. Mr. McCain is graded on a curve because the G.O.P. bar is set so low. But at a time when the latest Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll shows that President Bush is an even greater drag on his popularity than Mr. Wright is on Mr. Obama's, Mr. McCain's New Orleans visit is more about the self-interested politics of distancing himself from Mr. Bush than the recalibration of policy.
Mr. McCain took his party's stingier line on Katrina aid and twice opposed an independent commission to investigate the failed government response. Asked on his tour what should happen to the Ninth Ward now, he called for "a conversation" about whether anyone should "rebuild it, tear it down, you know, whatever it is." Whatever, whenever, never mind.
For all this primary season's obsession with the single (and declining) demographic of white working-class men in Rust Belt states, America is changing rapidly across all racial, generational and ethnic lines. The Census Bureau announced last week that half the country's population growth since 2000 is due to Hispanics, another group understandably alienated from the G.O.P.
Anyone who does the math knows that America is on track to become a white-minority nation in three to four decades. Yet if there's any coherent message to be gleaned from the hypocrisy whipped up by Hurricane Jeremiah, it's that this nation's perennially promised candid conversation on race has yet to begin."
Do not go grouping all
whites into one community like you'ns doins to the "Black Community".
This editorial was directed at many here.....
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
"The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis."
---This ISN'T a conspiracy theory... this is fact... http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/jul/tuskegee/
So, it doesn't surprise me that rumors would fly on the southside of Chicago in the black church about AIDS (I've heard them before, and not from blacks who went to Wright's church)-- this conspiracy theory also provides cover for bisexual black men... but it's not much different from hearing a Tulsa-area pastor in a baptist or pentecostal church talk of the United Nations paving the way for one-world government or characterizing the catholic church as the "whore of babylon" spoken of in the book of Revelation.. I find most conspiracy theories pretty dubious...
Again, I'm thinking sports injury... You're just like altruismsuffers, your links don't back up your claims, either that or you just aren't reading what you link to.
News Flash! The government NEVER infected black people with syphilis. They had syphilis already. Not that I would have expected you to read the NPR report YOU linked to.
So the jackass reverend is wrong yet again, but hey, don't let that stop you from defending him and enjoying his sermons, since he is 80% correct...
(http://soccerlens.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/Diaby%20-%20Terry.jpg)
Oh boy FauxTurd, thanks for the column by FRANK RICH, why don't I just link to a KARL ROVE column about Obama and call it Truth TM
Once again, Ippy, spoken like a true lawyer... void of perspective. See, I disagree with 80% of what YOU have to say... so I would never attend the "Church of IPLAW"...
And I despise the folks who are obnoxious enought to cherry-pick through years of sermons and go on to cherry-pick through individual sermons... you could easily do the very same things with southern baptists, methodists, etc....... except the Anglicans/Church of England, who rarely have anything to say (..."Cake or Death?")... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZVjKlBCvhg
Quotes from the actual candidate....
BARACK OBAMA, June 23, 2007
"It's 1985 and I'm from Chicago. I'm working with these churches and with lots of laypeople who are much older than I am. ... They saw that I knew the Scriptures and that many of the values I held ... were values they shared. But I think they also sensed that a part of me remained removed and detached ... that I was an observer in their midst. ...
It's around this time that some pastors I was working with came up to me and asked if I was a member of a church. "If you're organizing churches." they said, "it might be helpful if you went to church once in a while." And I thought, "Well, I guess that makes sense."
So one Sunday I put on one of the few clean jackets I had and went over to Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street on the South Side of Chicago. And I heard Revened Jeremiah A. Wright deliver a sermon called "The Audacity of Hope." And during the course of that sermon, he introduced me to someone named Jesus Christ. I learned that my sins could be redeemed. I learned that those things I was too weak to accomplish myself, He would accomplish with me if I placed my trust in Him. ...
It was because of these newfound understnadings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity one day and affirm my Christian faith. ... Kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth and carrying out. His Works."
ANOTHER QUOTE:
"I believe in the power of prayer. Through prayer, not only can we strengthen ourselves in adversity, but we can also find the empathy and the compassion and the will to deal with the problems that we do control. What I pray for is the strength and the wisdom to be able to act on those things that I can control. And that's what I think has been lacking sometimes in our government. We've got to express those values through our government, not just through our religious institutions."
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And if you're wondering what attracted Obama to that particular church.... instead of listening to the talking heads, maybe we could go to the FULL TEXT of Jeremiah Wright's sermon, THE AUDACITY OF HOPE:
3/16/08 For The Record
The full text of Jeremiah Wright's "Audacity To Hope" sermon in 1990:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/for-the-record.html
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
News Flash! The government NEVER infected black people with syphilis. They had syphilis already. Not that I would have expected you to read the NPR report YOU linked to.
So the jackass reverend is wrong yet again, but hey, don't let that stop you from defending him and enjoying his sermons, since he is 80% correct...
I read the link, and am sick of lawyeristic BS from you and your ilk... so technically, the government didn't "infect" black folks with syphillus but did something JUST AS BAD.... shame on you for parsing words as bad as Hillary Rodham Clinton......
"The Public Health Service, working with the Tuskegee Institute, began the study in 1932. Nearly 400 poor black men with syphilis from Macon County, Ala., were enrolled in the study. They were never told they had syphilis, nor were they ever treated for it. According to the Centers for Disease Control, the men were told they were being treated for "bad blood," a local term used to describe several illnesses, including syphilis, anemia and fatigue.
For participating in the study, the men were given free medical exams, free meals and free burial insurance.
At the start of the study, there was no proven treatment for syphilis. But even after penicillin became a standard cure for the disease in 1947, the medicine was withheld from the men. The Tuskegee scientists wanted to continue to study how the disease spreads and kills. The experiment lasted four decades, until public health workers leaked the story to the media.
By then, dozens of the men had died, and many wives and children had been infected. In 1973, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) filed a class-action lawsuit. A $9 million settlement was divided among the study's participants. Free health care was given to the men who were still living, and to infected wives, widows and children.
But it wasn't until 1997 that the government formally apologized for the unethical study.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Derailed
People should be quite concerned about a potential president who believes in what many would call a false Christian doctrine.
, said the pot to the kettle. You don't see any danger in what the "Right" side of the church is saying?
This thread is about Barack Obama and the type of Christianity he belives in which is very troubling to me.
Did you know, his church published in the "Pastor Corner" section an article from the terrorist group Hamas?
If you have read it, I can find the link.
As far as the "right" I'm not sure what or who you mean. Do you have examples?
Derailed,
Please don't post nonsense if you don't have a link or resource to validate that crappola. Don't just show up and be another meathead, please.
The Devil
Hey Ruf....I attended the Church of IPLAW and caught syphillis sitting on his pew.
To Godwin this thread...
I agreed with about 80% of what Hitler said, or would have if I lived in Germany at that time.
They were getting shafted by the Treaty of Versailles, their industrial might was being stymied, they had a claim to the Rhineland and were kin to Austria & parts of Czechoslovakia. Their economy was being kept down by the war reparations. Poland was weak and Germany could use the space (Poland had been affiliated more with "Germany" than it had been identified as Poland throughout history). The Russians were out to get the Germans. The German army was superior to France. Germany could re-arm and the allies would do nothing about it.
Most of his ideas weren't controversial. Just standard politician stuff. Germany should be a world leader. The people of Germany were the most hard working and smartest in the world. Germany was suffering from immigrants who stole jobs and cost the State money. Germany should be able to take care of it's people better, not fleeced by a small handful of powerful people. Or even that it needed to regain land that rightfully should be under German rule.
Insert America for Germany and the sales pitch is pretty much the same in our presidential race (but for the fact manifest destiny has been altered to foreign affairs domination). The thing about total war and the extermination of Jews, the Roma, Gays and others. That was no more than 20% of his rhetoric.
So by the same measure, that volume of of rhetoric determines how fallible someone is - Hitler was a swell guy too.
(I understand the absurdity of the argument, I'm making a point. If you disagree strongly with what is said the quantity of innocuous language is inconsequential.)
quote:
I read the link, and am sick of lawyeristic BS from you and your ilk... so technically, the government didn't "infect" black folks with syphillus but did something JUST AS BAD.... shame on you for parsing words as bad as Hillary Rodham Clinton......
Yeah...forgive me for actually demanding accuracy, truthfulness and thoughtful research from you. Shame on me.
The lie from Wright was that "we" injected AIDS into the black community, and that was supposedly a reasonable claim because "we" injected syphilis into black people before. Both claims are lies and prey upon those who are stupid enough to believe in conspiracy theories.
The Tuskegee experiments were awful, but they were not designed as a genocidal experiment to exterminate the black race, that's another nutjob conspiracy theory.
IP, be reasonable. Only "us lawyer types" can make rational and fact based arguments. Logic and support should not be demanded of everyone.
Also, of course we the white man tried to exterminate the black man. AIDS was out latest attempt, we're just really bad at it. Since 1980 the black population has grown from 26mil to 34mil and increased the percent of the population that is black. We fail.
I tried to infect Holly Berry and pre-1995 Janet Jackson with STDs, but they weren't interested.
But seriously, many of the statements of Wright were just wrong. A person in a position of authority is irresponsible when they pass on conspiracy theories that are inaccurate or incomplete at best. Just as it was irresponsible for white democrats to propagate lies about the "biblical inferiority of the Negro" it is equally wrong for Wright to propagate the lie that the white man is out to keep the brothers down - and then invent reasons.
Say what you will as an opinion, but given race relations in the USA there is no reason to invent facts.
[edit] Source: http://www.censusscope.org/us/chart_race.html [ /edit]
I forget that the bar must be lowered for the "hoi palloi"..if only I were a soccer fan, maybe I would understand. BTW, never trust a man that plays a sport that doesn't allow competitors to touch things with their hands...sounds awful OCD to me. Did you know you can get gonorrhea from a dirty soccer ball? Maybe FILA is trying to kill off latinos by giving them infected soccer balls?????
Lastly, don't forget that W failed us again when he blew up the levies in N'awlens. We just can't seem to get the job done. [xx(]
Gee. CF compares my belief in the core of what Rev Wright says to belief in Hitler... and IPLAW just spouts off all sorts of conservative elitist bull mularkey, signifying nothing...
Govenments lie. So do lawyers. And economists.
No you're just being dishonest. He said nothing of the sort.
Can you really not read or are you just being obstinate? Or are simple analogies too much for you Pele?
I guess things are easier if you just believe anything you hear or read on the Internet. Just don't bother to research anything and you'll be okay.
quote:
Originally posted by Derailed
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Derailed
People should be quite concerned about a potential president who believes in what many would call a false Christian doctrine.
, said the pot to the kettle. You don't see any danger in what the "Right" side of the church is saying?
This thread is about Barack Obama and the type of Christianity he belives in which is very troubling to me.
Did you know, his church published in the "Pastor Corner" section an article from the terrorist group Hamas?
If you have read it, I can find the link.
As far as the "right" I'm not sure what or who you mean. Do you have examples?
My apologies in advance, it was very hard to edit the number of crazy quotes from the "right"... any questions???So many quotes, so little time:
"All hurricanes are acts of God because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that." -- John Hagee
"Islam in general -- those who live by the Koran have a scriptural mandate to kill Christians and Jews." -- John Hagee
"Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews." -- John Hagee
"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them." -- Pat Robertson
"A cult is any group that has a form of godliness, but does not recognize Jesus Christ as the unique son of God."....."One test of a cult is that it often does not strictly teach that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who Himself is God manifested in the flesh."......"Christian-oriented cults include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), the Worldwide Church of God, Christian Science, Unity, Unitarianism, The Way International, Rosicrucian Society of America, Bahai, Hare Krishna, Scientology, the Unification Church, and the Jehovah's Witnesses." --CBN pamphlet entitled "Cults," dated 1992
"Individual Christians are the only ones really---and Jewish people, those who trust God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--are the only ones that are qualified to have the reign, because hopefully, they will be governed by God and submit to Him." -- Pat Robertson
"The strategy against the American radical left should be the same as General Douglas MacArthur employed against the Japanese in the Pacific... bypass their strongholds, then surround them, isolate them bombard them, then blast the individuals out of their power bunkers with hand-to-hand combat. The battle for Iwo Jima was not pleasant, but our troops won it. The battle to regain the soul of America won't be pleasant either, but we will win it." -- Pat Robertson
"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history." -- Pat Robertson plays the "victim card."
"The radical left is doing everything they can to destroy the moral fiber of America. They want to do away with the family. I am absolutely persuaded one of the reasons so many lesbians are at the forefront of the pro-choice movement is because being a mother is the unique characteristic of womanhood, and these lesbians will never be mothers naturally, so they don't want anybody else to have that privilege either." -- Pat Robertson
"The courts are merely a ruse, if you will, for humanist, atheistic educators to beat up on Christians." -- Pat Robertson
"If the widespread practice of homosexuality will bring about the destruction of your nation, if it will bring about terrorist bombs, if it'll bring about earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor, it isn't necessarily something we ought to open our arms to." -- Pat Robertson
"Many of those people involved with Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals - the two things seem to go together." -- Pat Robertson
"I think George Bush is going to win in a walk. I really believe that I'm hearing from the Lord it's going to be like a blowout election of 2004. It's shaping up that way. The Lord has just blessed him.... It doesn't make any difference what he does, good or bad. God picks him up because he's a man of prayer and God's blessing him." -- Pat Robertson
"The public education movement has also been an anti-Christian movement... We can change education in America if you put Christian principles in and Christian pedagogy in. In three years, you would totally revolutionize education in America." -- Pat Robertson
"I think we ought to close Halloween down. Do you want your children to dress up as witches? The Druids used to dress up like this when they were doing human sacrifice... [Your children] are acting out Satanic rituals and participating in it, and don't even realize it." -- Pat Robertson
"We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now. We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." -- Ann Coulter, writing about 9/11
Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, the last one of which was a 9-year-old girl. And I will tell you Allah is not Jehovah either. Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people."
--Rev. Jerry Vines, former President of the Southern Baptist Convention, speaking at the June 2002 SBC convention
"Patrick Leahy is a 'God's people-hater.' I don't know if he hates God, but he hates God's people."
--Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family
"In your re-election, God has graciously granted America - though she doesn't deserve it - a reprieve from the agenda of paganism. Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil. You owe liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise your Christ."
--Bob Jones III, president of Bob Jones University in a letter to George W. Bush after Nov. 2nd
"That's the phoniest argument there is. (Referring to separation of church and state) This whole nation was founded as one nation under God."
--Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.), speaking at the "Road To Victory" convention
"This is not a political speech. I am in fact apolitical. But why is George W. Bush in the White House? #65533;You must recognize that we as Americans saw a miracle unfold with the election of George W. Bush. Whether you voted for him or not is irrelevant. The fact is he is there today not only to lead America, but to lead the world, and that is what he is doing. Where does he start his day? He starts his day in the Oval Office at 4:30 with a Bible in his hand."
--Lt. General William G. Boykin
"We need to tell both parties, 'It's our way or the highway.' You and I can bring the ruling reign of the cross to America."
--Bishop Harry Jackson at Justice Sunday II
"What Christians have got to do is take back this country, one precinct at a time, one neighborhood at a time, and one state at a time... I honestly believe that in my lifetime we will see a country once again governed by Christians..."
--Religious News Service, 5/1/1990
"Atheistic secular humanists should be removed from office and Christians should be elected...Government and true Christianity are inseparable."
--Robert Simonds, founder & president of Citizens for Excellence in Education
"As the church watches from the sidelines, the ungodly elect atheists and homosexuals to school boards and legislatures to enact policies and laws that destroy our Christian children and discriminate against Christian families."
--Robert Simonds
"Most American children do not know that this is a Christian nation...
- ur Constitution won't work in Russia, won't work in Haiti, won't work in Iraq. It only works where the people believe in the Christ of the Bible. The United States of America."
--Jerry Falwell on "Sunday Live with Jerry Falwell," July 23, 1995
"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
--Randall Terry, The News Sentinel, (Ft. Wayne, IN.), 8/16/93
"The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually blind and desperately in need of their Messiah and Savior."
--Jerry Falwell, Listen, America!
"If he's going to be the counterfeit of Christ, he has to be Jewish. The only thing we know is he must be male and Jewish."
--Jerry Falwell commenting on the anti-Christ, January 1999
"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."
--Jerry Falwell
"We're fighting against humanism, we're fighting against liberalism ... we are fighting against all the systems of Satan that are destroying our nation today ... our battle is with Satan himself."
--Jerry Falwell
"The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country."
--Jerry Falwell
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant--baptism and holy communion--must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel."
--Gary North - Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism, Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989, p. 87
"Most politically active Christians don't want equal time with homosexuals, abortionists, animal worshipping pagans, witches, radical feminists and pornographers. We want them silenced and mercifully disciplined according to the word of God."
--Jay Rogers reviewing Ralph Reed's Politically Incorrect in "Chalcedon Report," 2/95
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George Bush Sr. to a reporter August 27, 1988, while serving as vice-president and running for President
"We are engaged in a social, political, and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets the right to teach our children what to believe."
--Gary Bauer
"So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will be get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."
--Gary North, "The Intellectual Schizophrenia of the New Christian Right" in Christianity and Civilization: The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, No. 1 (Spring, 1982), p. 25
"Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free."
--Pat Buchanan, speech to the Christian Coalition, Sept. 1993, as reported in ADL Report, 1994
"This is our land. This is our world. This is our heritage, and with God's help, we shall reclaim this nation for Jesus Christ. And no power on earth can stop us."
--D. James Kennedy, Character & Destiny: A Nation in Search of Its Soul, 1994 (p. 85)
"Anybody that doesn't believe in God isn't a good citizen.... If an atheist found a wallet on the ground, they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground."
--Glen Schmidt, district committee chair of the Chief Seattle Council [Boy Scouts]
"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America."
--Presidential candidate Pat Buchanan addressing the anti-gay rally in Des Moines, 2-11-96
"Your tax dollars are being used to pay for grade school classes that teach our children that CANNIBALISM, WIFE-SWAPPING, and the MURDER of infants and the elderly are acceptable behavior."
--Jesse Helms, part of a fundraising mailer sent out by the Helms campaign
One day, I hope in the next ten years, I trust that we will have more Christian day schools than there are public schools. I hope I will live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
--Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979
"The public school system is damned. Let me tell you how radical I am. Christian students should be in Christian schools. If you have to sell your car, live in a smaller house, or work a night job, put your child in Christian schools. If you can't afford it homeschool."
--Jerry Falwell, "Trends in Christian Higher Education," Regent University, 9/22/93
"State Universities are breeding grounds, quite literally, for sexually transmitted diseases (including HIV), homosexual behavior, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, alcoholism, and drug abuse."
--James Dobson, Life on the Edge, p. 233
"I'm a radical! I'm a real extremist. I don't want to impeach judges. I want to impale them!"
--Michael Schwartz, Oklahoma Senator Tom Coburn's chief of staff, at the "Confronting the Judicial War on Faith" conference
"Ronald Reagan said the Soviet Union was the focus of evil during the cold war. I believe that the judiciary is the focus of evil in our society today."
--Alan Keyes at the "Confronting the Judicial War on Faith" conference
"I heard a minister the other day talking about the great injustice and evil of the men in white robes, the Ku Klux Klan, that roamed the country in the South, and they did great wrong to civil rights and to morality. And now we have black-robed men, and that's what you're talking about."
--James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, April 11 radio broadcast
"You ask anybody that's investigated homosexual murders and without question they are the most violent...even the sex act itself is violent in homosexuals."
--Tony Perkins, President of Family Research Council
"Those who practice homosexuality should swiftly be put to death by the government. God emphatically condemns the practice of exchanging proper gender characteristics among men and women. God justly calls for the death-penalty for anyone who practices homosexuality."
--Citizens for the Ten Commandments
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."
--Jerry Falwell
"The homosexual blitzkrieg has been better planned and executed than Hitler's."
--Rep. William Dannemeyer (R-CA), The New Republic, 08-01-94
"The end goal of gay activism is the criminalization of Christianity."
--Robert H. Knight, Director of Cultural Studies at FRC
"The agenda of the left is to make religion strictly private and pornography public. And the people behind this agenda, more often than not, are homosexual activists."
--Robert H. Knight, director of the Concerned Woman of America's Culture and Family Institute
"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariottiers."
--Jerry Falwell
"Homosexuality is not a civil right. Its rise almost always is accompanied, as in the Weimar Republic, with a decay of society and a collapse of its basic cinder block, the family."
--Pat Buchanan, 1977
"Gay rights activists seek to substitute, for laws rooted in Judeo-Christian morality, laws rooted in the secular humanist belief that all consensual sexual acts are morally equal. That belief is anti-biblical and amoral; to codify it into law is to codify a lie."
--Pat Buchanan, Wall Street Journal, January 21, 1993
"The poor homosexuals -- they have declared war upon nature, and now nature is extracting an awful retribution (AIDS)."
--Pat Buchanan, discussing AIDS in 1983.
"With 80,000 dead of AIDS, our promiscuous homosexuals appear literally hell-bent on Satanism and suicide,"
--Pat Buchanan, October 17, 1990.
"The New York Times and Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves. Just about every person down there is a homosexual or lesbian."
--Senator Jesse Helms
"[Vice President Gore] recently praised the lesbian actress who plays 'Ellen' on ABC Television...I believe he may even put children, young people, and adults in danger by his public endorsement of deviant homosexual behavior...Our elected leaders are attempting to glorify and legitimize perversion."
--Jerry Falwell, quoted in People for the American Way, "Hostile Climate," 1998, p.9
"My observation is that women are merely waiting for their husbands to assume leadership."
--James Dobson, Straight Talk, pp. 151-152
"I'm an old-fashioned woman. Men should take care of women, and if men were taking care of women today, we wouldn't have to vote."
--Kay O'Connor, (R-KS)
"I listen to feminists and all these radical gals - most of them are failures. They've blown it. Some of them have been married, but they married some Casper Milquetoast who asked permission to go to the bathroom. These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men - that's their problem."
--Jerry Falwell
"Rail as they will about 'discrimination,' women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism."
--Pat Buchanan (11/22/83)
"Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender. The Biblical condemnation of feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals. That's the bottom line."
--Jerry Falwell
"When you know the LORD you have no need for masturbation."
--Brice Wellington
"I would like to outlaw contraception...contraception is disgusting #65533; people using each other for pleasure."
--Joseph Scheidler, Pro-Life Action League
"Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest."
--Jimmy Swaggart, quoted from http://i.am/not_a_crook
"I don't think Christians should use birth control. You consummate your marriage as often as you like #65533; and if you have babies, you have babies."
--Randall Terry
"When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell "Stop!" to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind. Then recite a portion of the Bible or sing a hymn."
--Mormon Guide to Self-Control
"Grown men should not be having sex with prostitutes unless they are married to them."
--Jerry Falwell, on CNN's Crossfire, May 17, 1997
"The Media is ruled by Satan. But yet I wonder if many Christians fully understand that. Also, will they believe what the Media says, considering that its aim is to steal, kill, and destroy?"
--Jimmy Swaggart, The Evangelist, January 1988
"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed."
--Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, speaking of doctors who perform abortions, in an address to the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance, 8/08/95
"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."
--Ann Coulter, August 26, 2002
I think [the war] is going well. CNN doesn't always get it right, but it goes pretty well if you watch it on FOX."
--Jerry Falwell, Guest-hosting CNN's Crossfire, December 2, 2004
"But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky."
--William Bennett, September 28, 2005 broadcast of Salem Radio Network's Bill Bennett's Morning in America
"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) this is working very well for them."
--Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the Hurricane flood evacuees in the Houston Astrodome, September 5, 2005
"I said a little prayer before I actually did the fingerprint thing, and the picture. And my prayer was basically: 'Let people see Christ through me. And let me smile.'" --Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, on being arrested and posing for his mug shot
"Did you know that Pat Robertson can leg press 2,000 pounds? How does he do it? Where does Pat find the time and energy to host a daily, national TV show, head a world-wide ministry, develop visionary scholars, while traveling the globe as a statesman? One of Pat's secrets to keeping his energy high and his vitality soaring is his age-defying protein shake. Pat developed a delicious, refreshing shake, filled with energy-producing nutrients. Discover what kinds of natural ingredients make up Pat's protein shake by registering for your FREE booklet today!" --from Pat Robertson's Web site
quote:
My apologies in advance, it was very hard to edit the number of crazy quotes from the "right"... any questions???
Here are a few questions for you:
How many of these churches/pastors have the McCains routinely attended?
Which of these pastors married him?
Which ones counseled him?
Which one prayed with him in their basement before he announced his candidacy?
Which ones were given staff positions?
Keep the witch-hunt going... poopyhead. Although I'd never vote for Rev Wright for president or attend his church, I'd have no trouble at all supporting various members of his congregation for political office...
Sorry, but John McCain, when it comes to religion.... tries to be politically correct... and behaves alot like Hillary Clinton... he regards religion like a politician-style buffet... pander, pander, pander... flip-flop, flip-flop...
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1018/p01s06-uspo.html
McCain says he is not "born again" and has not been baptized. He says he is "just a Christian," who for many years has been attending the North Phoenix Baptist Church in Arizona with his family. He was raised in the Episcopal Church and attended Episcopal High School, an elite boarding school in Alexandria, Va., where he was required to attend chapel every morning and church on Sunday. At the US Naval Academy, church attendance was also required.
http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2008/3/19/12226/1730/Diary/Different-Standards-for-Black-and-White-Preachers
http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html
So I guess you're not going to answer my questions?
That's okay, the response wouldn't have been worth reading.
Why is "religion" only important to you when it comes to McCain?
One word: Perspective.
Barack Obama: Putting faith out front
How the Illinois senator came to embrace religion in his life.
By Ariel Sabar | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
from the July 16, 2007 edition
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0716/p01s01-uspo.html
CHICAGO - On a recent Sunday, the magnetic pastor who led Barack Obama to Christianity was at his usual perch on the dais here, a South Side megachurch where a plaque beneath stained-glass depictions of the African-American struggle reads "Unashamedly Black, Unapologetically Christian."
The Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., in a casual short-sleeve shirt, preached about Martha as a "single saint," urging unmarried women to draw self-esteem from faith rather than men. He took blacks to task for what he said was their silence on domestic violence, homophobia, and the "illegal, untested, insane war in Iraq, started by a C-student draft dodger."
And in honor of National HIV Testing Day, he alerted his flock to mouth-swab tests being offered in the church building after services. "You can get results in 20 minutes – free and confidential," he said. Then he led more than a thousand worshipers, and a 200-member choir in traditional African dress, in a hymn to the Lord.
It was at Trinity United Church of Christ here, in the late 1980s, that Senator Obama says he found religion. Raised in a secular household, with ancestral roots running from Islam to Baptist to atheist, Obama had grown up a skeptic. But Mr. Wright's blend of scripture and social action resonated with Obama, then a young community organizer in black neighborhoods ravaged by steel-mill closings.
And when Wright preached one Sunday about the sustaining power of hope in the face of poverty and despair, Obama says he found himself in tears.
"The questions I had did not magically disappear," Obama wrote in his recent book, titled "The Audacity of Hope" after Wright's turn of phrase, of the day four years later when he made a formal commitment of Christian faith. "But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side of Chicago, I felt God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth."
Attention to 'least of these'
More than the other Democratic candidates for president, Obama has made faith a centerpiece of his campaign.
He has warned the left against ceding the mantle of religion to the evangelical right. He speaks of the church as an abiding force in American public life, from the Boston Tea Party through the abolitionist and civil rights movements. He suffuses his speeches with biblical allusions – "I am my brother's keeper" is a favorite phrase. And he has cast his generation of black leaders as modern-day Joshuas, after Moses' successor, who led the Israelites to the Promised Land.
Many of Obama's political views are "an outgrowth of his reading of some of the seminal parts of the Bible about doing unto the 'least of these' just as we would have done unto Christ," says Joshua DuBois, the campaign's director of religious affairs, paraphrasing verses in the book of Matthew. "He takes very seriously the numerous passages in the Bible that talk not only about poverty, but of people of faith taking God's words and extending them beyond the four walls of the church."
But as Obama promotes faith as a means of uniting a diverse America around a shared set of values, he has at times found himself in a political minefield. To the left are liberals uneasy with religious intrusions into politics; to the right, conservatives who have questioned his Christianity and denounced his ties to Wright's Afrocentric church.
Secular childhood
Obama's childhood in Hawaii and Indonesia was a swirl of faiths and cultures. His father, a black Kenyan economist, was raised Muslim but was an atheist by the time Obama was born. His mother, a white Kansan, had Baptist and Methodist roots but viewed organized religion with a gimlet eye, wary of how often it cloaked intolerance.
"Jesus, she felt, was a wonderful example," Obama's half-sister, Maya Soetoro-Ng, recalled in a phone interview. "But she felt that a lot of Christians behaved in un-Christian ways."
In their house, the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad-Gita shared shelf space with books on mythology. His mother viewed them all through the eyes of the anthropologist she was. Religion for her was "just one of the many ways – and not necessarily the best way – that man attempted to control the unknowable and understand the deeper truths about our lives," Obama wrote in "The Audacity of Hope," published in 2006.
After his mother was remarried, to an Indonesian Muslim, and the family moved to Indonesia, Obama went first to a Catholic academy and then a public Muslim school open to students of all beliefs.
But he was largely indifferent toward religion until he moved to Chicago in 1985 for a job organizing impoverished South Side residents in campaigns for better jobs, schools, and housing. As the recent college graduate went from church to church to enlist clergy in his causes, he heard an oft-repeated refrain: What church do you belong to?
"He really came here with a very strong passion about how can we change things, and he understood the churches as being a vehicle for doing that," recalls the Rev. Michael Pfleger, pastor of the Saint Sabina Church, a Catholic church on the South Side, who has known Obama since his early days in Chicago. But he also "realized that with some churches there would be a credibility issue if he were organizing churches but didn't have a home church."
'Against "middleclassness" '
Trinity United Church of Christ occupies a tan brick building on West 95th Street across railroad tracks from a public housing project. Since becoming pastor in 1972, Wright grew its membership from a few dozen to more than 8,500. He wore African dashikis, planted a "Free South Africa" sign on the church lawn, and demanded tolerance of gays and lesbians, a maverick stance for a black church.
The church sprouted more than 70 ministries, from AIDS counseling and African cultural exchange to a "manhood" program providing father figures to children of single mothers. Oprah Winfrey and the singer Mavis Staples have worshiped there, as have people on welfare.
While other black megachurch leaders like Creflo Dollar and T.D. Jakes were preaching prosperity gospel, the idea that God rewards the faithful with financial success, Wright asked worshipers to endorse a "Black Value System." One of its precepts is a disavowal of "middleclassness," a selfish pursuit of money and status without giving back to the larger black community.
Wright also preached black liberation theology, an outgrowth of the civil rights era that sees the Bible, particularly the exodus from Egyptian slavery, as a parable of the struggle for black freedom.
However incongruously, Trinity became the largest congregation in The United Church of Christ, a predominantly white denomination known for its liberal politics and steepled churches in small New England towns. The UCC, or Congregational church, as it is also called, was the first mainline Protestant church to ordain an African-American (1785), a woman (1853), and an openly gay man (1972), and the first major Christian denomination to endorse same-sex marriage (2005).
Wright impressed Obama, and by 1988 the younger man found himself in the pews, listening to parishioners clap and cry out as Wright spoke of "the audacity of hope" in times of suffering, Obama writes in his bestselling 1995 memoir, "Dreams from My Father." In Wright's words that day, Obama glimpsed the deeper meaning he had been searching for in his work with the South Side's poor, who often had little to go on but faith.
"In that single note – hope! – I heard something else," Obama wrote. "At the foot of that cross, inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion's den, Ezekiel's field of dry bones. Those stories – of survival, and freedom, and hope – became our story, my story."
Four years later, after returning to Chicago from Harvard Law School, Obama joined Trinity and walked down the aisle in a formal commitment of faith. Wright later married Obama and his wife, Michelle, and blessed the births of their two children.
By his own admission, Obama's conversion was "a choice and not an epiphany." It owed as much to spiritual yearning as to a recognition of the power of the black church to change lives and society.
"What moved me was the role all the congregations I worked with played in the life of the people I was working with," Obama said in an e-mail to the Monitor. "What touched me was how faith bolstered them against heartache and disappointment and kept them going."
Fancy footwork
After law school, Obama returned to Chicago to register low-income voters for the 1992 presidential election. He worked as a civil rights lawyer and as a lecturer at University of Chicago Law School before his election to the Illinois state Senate in 1996.
From the moment he took the national stage, at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, Obama, then running for US Senate, made no secret of his spiritual bent. "We worship an awesome God in the blue states," he said in a keynote address credited with launching his stardom.
But for a liberal Democrat and former constitutional law instructor, the plea for a broader public role for religion has at times required some fancy footwork.
He has called for both "a politics of conscience" based on ecumenical religious values and a clear line between church and state. He has both invoked God in his denunciations of the Iraq war and criticized President Bush for using religious terms like "good" and "evil" to justify it.
"The danger of using good versus evil in the context of war is it may lead us to be not as critical as we should be about our own actions," he said at a candidates' forum on religion last month, calling the torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and the treatment of suspected terrorists at the Guantánamo Bay prison camp "unjust."
Obama and his advisers have said that his faith has motivated legislation meant to benefit the poor, the uninsured, and minorities. In the Illinois state Senate, Father Pfleger recalls, Obama sponsored measures to clamp down on high-interest "payday loans" in poor neighborhoods and to require Illinois police agencies to record the race of motorists they stop as part of a state effort to monitor racial profiling. He also pressed for a bill requiring police to videotape interrogations of murder suspects, as a safeguard against coerced confessions.
At a speech last month at the annual Hampton University Ministers' Conference in Virginia, he offered his most detailed list to date of programs he said should spring from "our faith, the Word, and His will." They range from a new service corps for disadvantaged youths and a program to have nurses teach low-income mothers good parenting to more jobs programs for ex-convicts and more venture capital for minority-owned businesses.
Elsewhere, he has preached a version of his church's critique of black "middleclassness." He told a crowd in Selma, Ala., in March that his generation of blacks should strive for more than just "some of that Oprah money."
"Materialism alone will not fulfill the possibilities of your existence," he said. "You have to fill it with the golden rule. You've got to fill it with thinking about others."
Last year, he and Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican, sponsored a successful bill to let people in bankruptcy continue to donate money to their places of worship.
Obama's advisers say his open faith and personal narrative are political assets as churchgoers grow increasingly disillusioned with Mr. Bush. "The ultimate swing voters right now are moderate Catholic voters and moderate evangelical voters," says Shaun Casey, professor of Christian ethics at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington and an Obama campaign adviser. "There are more opportunities for Democrats with them than there have been in about 20 years."
In addition to Mr. DuBois, the campaign has faith-outreach workers on staff in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina. It holds conference calls every week with religious leaders in the early primary states. And it has staged a half dozen "faith forums" in New Hampshire, where voters, local clergy, and campaign staff trade views on the proper role of faith in public life.
A Time magazine poll released Thursday found that more voters see Obama as a strongly religious person than they do every major presidential hopeful but Mitt Romney, the Republican former governor of Massachusetts whose Mormonism has drawn extensive news coverage.
But whether that public perception translates into votes, even among the 1.2 million members of Obama's own denomination, has yet to be seen.
At the annual gathering for Iowa clergy of the United Church of Christ, which Obama addressed last month, the finance chair of a church outside Des Moines said he had thought Obama was Muslim.
Another church leader, pastor Al Hohl of the First Congregational United Church of Christ in Sioux City, Iowa, said he hadn't heard such candid talk of faith from a liberal since his days as a seminary student in the 1960s. He found it refreshing, but plans to vote for Bill Richardson, the New Mexico governor and Democratic presidential candidate, whom he views as more politically experienced.
But others there said Obama gave voice to deeply held yet seldom expressed convictions about a progressive role for organized religion. "It's time we stand up to the conservatives," said Barbara Brandt, a parish administrator at a UCC church in Reinbeck, Iowa. "We're as Christian as they are."
Pastor disinvited
Obama's mingling of faith and politics has drawn fire from some on both the left and the right.
"A war of Bible-quoting isn't supposed to be going on during a campaign season," says Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "Proof-testing the Bible to see if God is a liberal or a conservative or a uniter or a divider is not relevant."
Some evangelical leaders have questioned how Obama can square his Christianity with support for abortion rights and same-sex civil unions. And conservatives have pummeled Wright for his Afrocentric beliefs, his equation of Zionism with racism, and his remarks on the 9/11 attacks. ("In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01," Wright wrote in 2005 in a church- affiliated magazine. "White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just 'disappeared' as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns.")
The night before he announced his candidacy for president in February, Obama withdrew an invitation to Wright to give the public invocation, a decision that did not sit well with some other Chicago pastors. Pfleger said Obama told him that he didn't want criticism of Wright to detract from the big day. "I told him I thought it was the wrong decision," Pfleger said in an interview.
Jen Psaki, a spokeswoman for the campaign, said "the change was made in order to avoid having statements and beliefs being used out of context and forcing the entire church to defend itself."
Wright remains Obama's pastor and friend, she said, but they do not see eye to eye on every issue. Obama, she said, "strongly disagrees with any portrayal of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that advocates divestment from Israel or expresses anything less than strong support for Israel's security."
As for the church's Black Value System, she said, Obama "believes its basic tenets of commitment to God, to community, to self-discipline and self-reliance continue to have applicability not only to the African-American community but to all people."
Though Obama was an early and fervent critic of the war in Iraq, he has steered clear of his pastor's sometimes inflammatory rhetoric. At a candidates' forum on faith last month, Obama framed his opposition in more nuanced terms.
"I always remember Abraham Lincoln when, during the Civil War, he said, 'We shouldn't be asking whose side God is on, but whether we're on His side,' " he said. "And I think that's the question that all of us have to ask ourselves.... Are we advancing the causes of justice and freedom? Are we our brother's keeper, our sister's keeper? And that's how I measure whether what we're doing is right."
Wright declined in an e-mail interview to answer questions about some of his contentious remarks. "I have given up trying to respond to conservatives who have done no study of liberation theology, black theology, or African-American history," he wrote.
Obama's message of faith and his ties to a controversial pastor have not been without pitfalls, analysts say.
But "the positives outweigh the negatives," says Professor Dwight Hopkins of the University of Chicago Divinity School, who is a member of Trinity but not affiliated with the Obama campaign. "I think he is one of the biggest threats to the Republican Party and their campaign, because he has seized the religious discursive ground. No Democratic candidate since Jimmy Carter has been able to do that."
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Gee. CF compares my belief in the core of what Rev Wright says to belief in Hitler... and IPLAW just spouts off all sorts of conservative elitist bull mularkey, signifying nothing...
Govenments lie. So do lawyers. And economists.
What did I write that was a lie?
I made it very clear that my example was absurd but was being used to make a point. Do you take issue with that point or not? Because you made no substantial refutation of anything I said
- the gist of which was that even if you agree with 80% of what someone says, the remaining 20% is often so damaging, false, or offensive that most people will disassociate from it. The only things I have against Hitler were the massing killing of Jews, Roma, Gays, and other groups along with waging war for power and a general repression of civil and human rights where ever he had power. That only reflected a small percentage of what he preached to the masses and in writing.
Fortunately, that small percentage was such an abomination that most people concentrate on it. In spite of his 20 years spent building Germany into an industrial super power and taking the people out of poverty... those details just destroy his legacy.
Please tell me you understand the point I'm trying to make. Wright is not Hitler, not even close. Nor am I comparing you to Hitler. I'm saying that 80% correctness is unacceptable if the remaining 20% are anything but abject opinions (say lies, bigotry, or the conspiracy theories).
Sorry if you covered this in the middle of an article spam, I general don't read articles posted in their entirety.
Remember the good ole days when FauxTurd was the only one that copied entire articles into posts?
NOTE TO SOCCERCLAUS: Linking to the article is good enough without cutting and pasting the body into your post, that's why Jesus invented the hyperlink.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Remember the good ole days when FauxTurd was the only one that copied entire articles into posts?
NOTE TO SOCCERCLAUS: Linking to the article is good enough without cutting and pasting the body into your post, that's why Jesus invented the hyperlink.
Actually I invented the hyperlink shortly after Algore invented the internet. I just thought it would be nice! [:)]
You're all welcome!