Anticipating a repeat of the sneaky, underhanded way that EMSA Director Williamson foisted the $3.64 per month EMSA fee onto our City Water bill, for those of us who don't want or need this service due to duplicate coverage under our health insurance plan, when can we expect to see the annual "Open Season" to opt-out of the EMSA fee??
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Anticipating a repeat of the sneaky, underhanded way that EMSA Director Williamson foisted the $3.64 per month EMSA fee onto our City Water bill, for those of us who don't want or need this service due to duplicate coverage under our health insurance plan, when can we expect to see the annual "Open Season" to opt-out of the EMSA fee??
thanks for reminding me, i think it is closer to June.
...but, I'm sure the advertising awareness budget won't cover any mass public information campaign.
Geez, not this again...
quote:
Originally posted by Mike G
Geez, not this again...
yes, and every year until they make the fee go away.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Mike G
Geez, not this again...
yes, and every year until they make the fee go away.
Let's be alert to update this topic when someone learns about this year's Opt-Out period.
The EMSA TotalCare 2008-2009 open enrollment period ends on June 30, 2008. So, it would be logical to assume that the Opt-Out open period would coincide with next year's enrollment "Open Season".
However, considering the devious, underhanded way the EMSA fee was foisted on city water service rate payers, maybe this year their Opt-Out Open Period dates will be DIFFERENT.
Sneakier and sneakier?
Fee's in Tulsa don't go away. The apathy shown in the council election of the people limit the ability of removing a fee or the proper use of the fee.
We have a Storm Water Fee, among other resources, that is added to the water bill and we have to close streets when we get a little rain storm. There is a possibility that some citizens believe placing signs in the roadway saying "closed due to high water" was the purpose of that fee.
Now this fee was to be a use fee to protect the citizens of Tulsa from flooding but has been converted to a property tax on vacant property owned by persons that live elsewhere. There was a time this practice was known as "taxation without representation.
Just think we have a high paid bureaucracy, who's duties are to create more fee's so we can create more bureaucracies.
Civil disobedience would be in order if ambulance service wasn't a matter of life-or-death.
Imagine the newly christened trolley being replaced with calls for EMSA service.
quote:
Originally posted by CoffeeBean
Civil disobedience would be in order if ambulance service wasn't a matter of life-or-death.
Imagine the newly christened trolley being replaced with calls for EMSA service.
Actually, EMSA isn't a FIRST Responder.
The Tulsa Fire Dept. is the First Responder.
Why?
EMSA lacks the density of vehicles to rapidly respond to medical emergencies within the metropolitan area.
Reported Former Local Government Greenmail Grifter and Radio Shock Jock Jon Erling Frette used to read us the very abysmal and SCARRY EMSA Response Times on his KRMG radio spot just for laughs.
Remember?
That's before EMSA started paying his wife Margritte for "lobbying" on behalf of EMSA.
Then Big Jon miraculously lightened up.
Just a coincidence?
Sure.
Quid Pro Quo?
Nah.
Just the Tulsa Premium.
Again.
Were our Local Gifted Grifters merely shaking down various local Goobermint entities to the tune of $200K per annum to possibly buy "peace" with the notorious local Shock Jock?
Margritte helped bring us Grate Planes Airlines as their Lobbyist.
Remember?
Where did those $40 million in state and local tax dollars REALLY go?
Does she know where the bodies are buried....?
By the way, just for LAUGHS, hang around a local nursing home a few days.
They get regular Emergency Medical calls. Poor dears.
See which EMT vehicle ALWAYS shows up for the EMT:
It's the $400K-$600K Tulsa Fire Truck, getting a maximum 4 MPG for responding to a fainting spell.
Burning up the Tulsa roadways at 4 MPG to respond to a fainting spell.
And, burning of your Itty Bitty 3rd Penny Sales Tax dollars for brand new shiny Red Fire Trucks, at the tune of $400 - $600K per.
Instead of improving streets and roads in Tulsa.
Third Penny expenditures dropping to a paltry 28% of Third Penny expenditures at the latest Itty Bitty Third Penny Sales Tax renewal.
But, TFD has lots of big, new shiny red firetrucks to play with.
And TPD has big, new shiny police cruisers to commute home to Mannford, B.A., Jenks, Sapulpa, Sand Springs, Kellyville, Skiatook, Collinsville, and Owasso.
Your TAX Dollars at WASTE.
It's the TULSA PREMIUM.
Again.
EMSA is merely a Transport Unit.
NOT a First Responder. They could NEVER hack it.
Hauling either Tulsa FD stabilized patients, or future organ transplant donors to local hospitals.
Once the EMT situtation has been stabilized by Tulsa FD, then EMSA transports.
That's the standard protocol.
It's another: TULSA PREMIUM.
At a new mere $3.64 per customer per month. Mere peanuts considering increasing property taxes, fuel, electricity, groceries, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Forever.
Welcome to the New World Order.
[:O]
Sorry, FB - you've got some "facts" wrong.
Both TFD and EMSA look at response times on a monthly basis. Only about 40 percent of the time is TFD first to an emergency, despite the density of fire stations. First responder means a person who lends an extra hand in the first few intensive minutes of an emergency, it does not indicate in Tulsa who's on scene first.
To say that EMSA is merely a transport service is disingenuous. It implies that nothing goes on inside the ambulance except driving. I think the heart attack victims who've been saved because of EMSA interventions, monitoring and medications en route to the hospital would argue... ditto the women who've safely delivered babies with EMSA paramedics' help... and the motorists who've suffered massive injuries but arrived at hospital alive and ready for surgery, thanks to the EMSA paramedics. It's simply untrue to claim that EMSA has no hand or a small role in stabilizing patients. Ask the agencies how many medical procedures - not just responses, but procedures like giving medications or starting IVs - they perform each month and compare.
For what it's worth, I think both TFD and EMSA do a wonderful and different jobs. Both agencies are needed at some, maybe many, emergencies. Imagine a big wreck that only EMSA responded to... who would cut the patients out of the car? Who would handle spilled chemicals or an engine fire? Or a big house fire that only TFD responded to... who would monitor, provide oxygen, do CPR on and transport patients while the firefighters were putting out the fire? They work together, and they're both needed.
I am unsure who friendless bear was attacking in his post. He doesn't seem to like the ambulance service, the fire department, the police department, lobbyists, radio DJs, and shiny trucks.
He wants us to hang out at nursing homes just for laughs.
I know there is such a thing as mad cow...now I am sure there is also mad bear.
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
We have a Storm Water Fee, among other resources, that is added to the water bill and we have to close streets when we get a little rain storm. There is a possibility that some citizens believe placing signs in the roadway saying "closed due to high water" was the purpose of that fee.
I would imagine some of our neighboring towns would gladly pay it this week to have Tulsa's "flood problem". I had no problems driving to work any of the days lately in which we had heavy, heavy rain. I've heard of no property damage due to floods in Tulsa. Meanwhile, BA streets flooded every time and they didn't even have school today because of it. I don't think Sand Springs, Bixby, etc enjoyed the rain too much either.
I find it hilarious that every time shadows rails against the storm water fee or Tulsa's storm water system, a monster downpour occurs that completely justifies their existence.
I live on the west side, and Jones Airport has recorded more than 6 1/2 inches of rain in three days. You'd be hard-pressed to find any municipality that could handle that much rain in such a short time. But Tulsa's system worked like a champ.
I can remember of all the propaganda that was used to install EMSA and read in the paper where a 7 year old child dies. There was years before EMSA was created on the persistence of a doctors wife, still Tulsa existed..
Ok on the west side rainfall but the rain gage at the NE Airport, and the gages of SWM did not record such rainfall in a short time. Nature by its own designed will dispose of high rainfalls over long periods of time. The outflow of any area is a simple math problem. Flash floods occur when the excessive rainfall occurs in a short time. Some of the floods are localized to small areas but the Keystone could not stop the flood on the Arkansas in the same areas that the cities flooded.
We are number one in flood control, I believe we are the only city with flood control department. Denver has tried but I understand they are abandoning it. New Orleans shows a massive failure.
Rule of the thumb "Don't build in the abandon river bed"
EMSA is not a chariot to heaven. Cemeteries are growing daily.
quote:
Originally posted by OkieDiva
Sorry, FB - you've got some "facts" wrong.
Both TFD and EMSA look at response times on a monthly basis. Only about 40 percent of the time is TFD first to an emergency, despite the density of fire stations. First responder means a person who lends an extra hand in the first few intensive minutes of an emergency, it does not indicate in Tulsa who's on scene first.
To say that EMSA is merely a transport service is disingenuous. It implies that nothing goes on inside the ambulance except driving. I think the heart attack victims who've been saved because of EMSA interventions, monitoring and medications en route to the hospital would argue... ditto the women who've safely delivered babies with EMSA paramedics' help... and the motorists who've suffered massive injuries but arrived at hospital alive and ready for surgery, thanks to the EMSA paramedics. It's simply untrue to claim that EMSA has no hand or a small role in stabilizing patients. Ask the agencies how many medical procedures - not just responses, but procedures like giving medications or starting IVs - they perform each month and compare.
For what it's worth, I think both TFD and EMSA do a wonderful and different jobs. Both agencies are needed at some, maybe many, emergencies. Imagine a big wreck that only EMSA responded to... who would cut the patients out of the car? Who would handle spilled chemicals or an engine fire? Or a big house fire that only TFD responded to... who would monitor, provide oxygen, do CPR on and transport patients while the firefighters were putting out the fire? They work together, and they're both needed.
Oh Contraire, Mon Ami.
The TULSA FIRE Dept. is the FIRST Responder. It's official.
EMSA from its earliest days simply could not hack it as the First Responder. They lacked the density of vehicles spread throughout the metropolitan area.
Why do you think we have a jail named after former D.A. David L. Moss?
Hmmmmh?
Poor Mr. Moss keeled over with a heart attack one warm, summer day mowing his lawn.
His wife called 911, and mistakenly asked for an AMBULANCE.
They lived right behind a Fire Station.
He died before the ambulance got there.....
Well, at least the Tulsa County Jail PRISONERS got some cheerful news concerning their old Nemesis.
And, Mr. Moss got a building named after him.
And, I certainly hope that EMSA personnel do provide EMT assistance to patients in route to medical treatment, and that they sustain as many sick/injured patients as possible.
ISN'T THAT THEIR JOBS?
As a Tulsa taxpayer, the part I enjoy paying for the most, besides the monthly $3.64 EMSA Tax, is to see EMSA ambulances parked behind Quik-Trips or in shopping center parking lots, with the ENGINES and heaters/Air conditioners RUNNING continuously because EMSA personnel are basically HOMELESS.
Observed one in INACTION a few days ago. The driver was playing with his computer.
His EMT assistant (a female) was ASLEEP in the passenger seat.
Wonder why she didn't just climb in back for a snooze on the stretcher?
Mild, 70 degree day, but All windows were UP, and the engine and air conditioner were running continuously.
24 x 7?
Sure, why not? We're paying for their fuel with our Sales Tax dollars.
From a policy viewpoint, if EMSA didn't view TFD as a COMPETITOR, then the ambulances could actually park and stage out of our Fire Stations.
Right?
But, TFD doesn't want EMSA personnel at their Animal House Fraternity parties and to observe whether the firemen are gaming their timesheets, and EMSA doesn't want ANYTHING to do with their competitor TFD.
You will NEVER see an EMSA ambulance parked at a TFD station. Never.
Well, just MAYBE if a Fireman needs transport, but in that case they'd probably fire up a Fire Truck for transport, not wanting to trust one of their guild to a competitor.
As to RecycleMichael's oft-repeated invectives against me, I'm only mad at what I see as 30 years of City of Tulsa Policy Stupidity and WASTE regarding EMSA.
What I would expect to see if there were proper local leadership and governance of the taxpayer's involuntarily extracted tax dollars is some efficiency and accountability.
Sorry, we all get to continue paying for two duplicative EMT services:
It's the TULSA PREMIUM.
Again.
and,
Again.
and,
Again.
[:O]
Back on topic.....
After opting out last year, I put it on my calendar for the next two years to remember to opt out each year and I have it marked for May 15. I'll start looking for the forms then.
Gee Bear...more insults to public safety personnel...
You make up a story implying that EMSA killed a police officer, call ambulance drivers "homeless", and say firemen are lying on their timesheets and throwing frat parties at the station.
No proof.
Instead of the fairy tale of "The Three Bears", it is three stories made up by one bear.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Gee Bear...more insults to public safety personnel...
You make up a story implying that EMSA killed a police officer, call ambulance drivers "homeless", and say firemen are lying on their timesheets and throwing frat parties at the station.
No proof.
Instead of the fairy tale of "The Three Bears", it is three stories made up by one bear.
Au Contraire, Monsieur Le Bete de la MET.
Mr. David Moss was not a policeman.
He was Tulsa County District Attorney.
Go ask his wife what killed him:
The Heart Attack, or the glacial response time of the ambulance.
EMSA personal are "homeless", i.e. lack a proper roof over their head.
EMSA could easily stage from fire stations. To "stage" is to provision and then deploy for an operation, and then to rest and recover between deployments back at base.
They have no base.
Both organizations have a strong, mutual loathing for each other.
Sound familiar? They don't play well together.
When the EMSA contract was last up for renewal, the Fire Department again tried to take them over.
Remember?
Animal House Antics at our local fire stations?
Oh, at least I seem to recall under the sterling tenure of former Fire Chief Tom Baker that a Fire Captain, two lieutenants, and one lowly fireman were bringing ladies besides their wives into the Fire Station for some late night, horizontal counseling.
The only one punished was the lowliest fireman. The others got to retire.
They should have been fired.
That certainly SOUNDS like an Animal House FRAT HOUSE to me.
Isolated incident.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
Your evidence is that once a fire station had some guys who had sex on the job. Now you feel compelled to lump all of them together.
Your evidence that EMSA and TFD don't like each other is that the ambulances don't park at stations? Do you think the stations were designed to house additional vehicles?
You constantly try to paint the worse of everybody and say that everything is crooked.
Your conspiracies theories and outright falsehoods have been proven wrong again and again, yet you just come back with more. Did you ever think about changing strategies and telling the truth?
As you can tell, I think that the fire department does a good job. I worked with over a dozen of them this past weekend and they work hard. I also was happy that EMSA volunteered to help with our collection event. They have always been good to work with.
Maybe you just don't like people in uniforms. It probably relates to Smokey the Bear wearing one and getting all the good press. The rest of you bears are probably just jealous.
Same old crap, different day.
It's time to change F.B.'s handle to Boring Bear.
Or Banal Bear.
Or Blah Bear.
You're not as boring as buzz words' posts, but you're close.
If you can't bring something new to the table except for minor rewordings of the same tired diatribes, then don't post.
You're not going to persuade anyone if you're putting them to sleep.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Gee Bear...more insults to public safety personnel...
You make up a story implying that EMSA killed a police officer, call ambulance drivers "homeless", and say firemen are lying on their timesheets and throwing frat parties at the station.
No proof.
Instead of the fairy tale of "The Three Bears", it is three stories made up by one bear.
Au Contraire, Monsieur Le Bete de la MET.
Mr. David Moss was not a policeman.
He was Tulsa County District Attorney.
Go ask his wife what killed him:
The Heart Attack, or the glacial response time of the ambulance.
EMSA personal are "homeless", i.e. lack a proper roof over their head.
EMSA could easily stage from fire stations. To "stage" is to provision and then deploy for an operation, and then to rest and recover between deployments back at base.
They have no base.
Both organizations have a strong, mutual loathing for each other.
Sound familiar? They don't play well together.
When the EMSA contract was last up for renewal, the Fire Department again tried to take them over.
Remember?
Animal House Antics at our local fire stations?
Oh, at least I seem to recall under the sterling tenure of former Fire Chief Tom Baker that a Fire Captain, two lieutenants, and one lowly fireman were bringing ladies besides their wives into the Fire Station for some late night, horizontal counseling.
The only one punished was the lowliest fireman. The others got to retire.
They should have been fired.
That certainly SOUNDS like an Animal House FRAT HOUSE to me.
Isolated incident.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
David Moss died of a heart attack. And he was considered, like all District Attorney's, to be the area's Chief Law Enforcement Officer. All DAs are considered law enforcement officers.
EMSA constantly changes the position of their ambulances based on where their other ambulances are. It's almost like playing zone defense. Housing in a firehouse someplace would not change the constant re-locating so ambulances are in the best possible location to handle the next emergency. EMSA folks don't get to go in and tuck themselves in at night to sleep. There aren't enough crews on duty to allow that. So, why they would want to house at a fire station is beyond me. What are you saying is the benefit?
EMSA has a home base at 1400 N. Lansing.
And where the hatred comes from between the two groups, I have no idea. Seeing them work together every day certainly counters that statement.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Your evidence is that once a fire station had some guys who had sex on the job. Now you feel compelled to lump all of them together.
Your evidence that EMSA and TFD don't like each other is that the ambulances don't park at stations? Do you think the stations were designed to house additional vehicles?
You constantly try to paint the worse of everybody and say that everything is crooked.
Your conspiracies theories and outright falsehoods have been proven wrong again and again, yet you just come back with more. Did you ever think about changing strategies and telling the truth?
As you can tell, I think that the fire department does a good job. I worked with over a dozen of them this past weekend and they work hard. I also was happy that EMSA volunteered to help with our collection event. They have always been good to work with.
Maybe you just don't like people in uniforms. It probably relates to Smokey the Bear wearing one and getting all the good press. The rest of you bears are probably just jealous.
Were these Fire Department and EMSA personnel actually working on the City timeclock?
Then, of course they were happy to loaf with you while on the payroll.
Silly boy.
You'll never see a EMSA ambulance parked at a Firehouse because they see themselves as COMPETITORS.
As to Fire House = Animal House antics, TFD doesn't want any non-Guild personnel observing their actual "work" place.
Oh, and WHAT conspiracy theory were you referring to?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Same old crap, different day.
It's time to change F.B.'s handle to Boring Bear.
Or Banal Bear.
Or Blah Bear.
You're not as boring as buzz words' posts, but you're close.
If you can't bring something new to the table except for minor rewordings of the same tired diatribes, then don't post.
You're not going to persuade anyone if you're putting them to sleep.
Then why are you wasting your time unloading on my post?
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Gee Bear...more insults to public safety personnel...
You make up a story implying that EMSA killed a police officer, call ambulance drivers "homeless", and say firemen are lying on their timesheets and throwing frat parties at the station.
No proof.
Instead of the fairy tale of "The Three Bears", it is three stories made up by one bear.
Au Contraire, Monsieur Le Bete de la MET.
Mr. David Moss was not a policeman.
He was Tulsa County District Attorney.
Go ask his wife what killed him:
The Heart Attack, or the glacial response time of the ambulance.
EMSA personal are "homeless", i.e. lack a proper roof over their head.
EMSA could easily stage from fire stations. To "stage" is to provision and then deploy for an operation, and then to rest and recover between deployments back at base.
They have no base.
Both organizations have a strong, mutual loathing for each other.
Sound familiar? They don't play well together.
When the EMSA contract was last up for renewal, the Fire Department again tried to take them over.
Remember?
Animal House Antics at our local fire stations?
Oh, at least I seem to recall under the sterling tenure of former Fire Chief Tom Baker that a Fire Captain, two lieutenants, and one lowly fireman were bringing ladies besides their wives into the Fire Station for some late night, horizontal counseling.
The only one punished was the lowliest fireman. The others got to retire.
They should have been fired.
That certainly SOUNDS like an Animal House FRAT HOUSE to me.
Isolated incident.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
David Moss died of a heart attack. And he was considered, like all District Attorney's, to be the area's Chief Law Enforcement Officer. All DAs are considered law enforcement officers.
EMSA constantly changes the position of their ambulances based on where their other ambulances are. It's almost like playing zone defense. Housing in a firehouse someplace would not change the constant re-locating so ambulances are in the best possible location to handle the next emergency. EMSA folks don't get to go in and tuck themselves in at night to sleep. There aren't enough crews on duty to allow that. So, why they would want to house at a fire station is beyond me. What are you saying is the benefit?
EMSA has a home base at 1400 N. Lansing.
And where the hatred comes from between the two groups, I have no idea. Seeing them work together every day certainly counters that statement.
Despite RecycleMichael calling Mr. Moss a policeman, he wasn't.
He was an elected official. Tulsa County DISTRICT ATTORNEY.
Our legal system has a division of duties between the Prosecutors, and the Police.
The police investigate reports of crimes, and make arrests.
The prosecutors decide whether they think a crime appeared, and if so, to prosecute the offender.
Here Friendly Bear, let me correct a few of your misconceptions.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Poor Mr. Moss keeled over with a heart attack one warm, summer day mowing his lawn.
His wife called 911, and mistakenly asked for an AMBULANCE.
They lived right behind a Fire Station.
He died before the ambulance got there...
Sometimes people die and you can't fix dead.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
EMSA is merely a Transport Unit.
NOT a First Responder. They could NEVER hack it.
Hauling either Tulsa FD stabilized patients, or future organ transplant donors to local hospitals.
Once the EMT situtation has been stabilized by Tulsa FD, then EMSA transports.
That's the standard protocol.
Actually it's not the standard, or any, protocol at all. TFD does first respond, and EMSA does transport. Both agencies work under the SAME protocols from the SAME medical director. As far as TFD stabilizing a patient... explain how a BLS fire company is going to stabilize a patient with exacerbated COPD? What about the calls that TFD never responds to or is canceled by EMSA?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
As a Tulsa taxpayer, the part I enjoy paying for the most, besides the monthly $3.64 EMSA Tax, is to see EMSA ambulances parked behind Quik-Trips or in shopping center parking lots, with the ENGINES and heaters/Air conditioners RUNNING continuously because EMSA personnel are basically HOMELESS.
Observed one in INACTION a few days ago. The driver was playing with his computer.
His EMT assistant (a female) was ASLEEP in the passenger seat.
How does that justify making them homeless? It's more like a mobile office. And did you actually see that he was 'playing' on his tablet, or was he finishing a PCR since all PCR's are done on tablets?
Oh, and if he was in the driver's seat, odds are he was the EMT and his paramedic PARTNER was probably sleeping because when you work 12 hour shifts (assuming you get off on time), four days a week (heaven forbid you have to pick up overtime shifts because you have bills that are due and you could work many other places and make get paid what you're worth, but you choose to do this job because there are people out there that need help and you are one of the few that have offered themselves to help), it wears you out. How many hours a week do you work? Better yet, how many hours a day? I know I work 13-14... assuming I get off on time. Better run home because I have to be back to work in a few hours.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Mild, 70 degree day, but All windows were UP, and the engine and air conditioner were running continuously.
Sure, why not? We're paying for their fuel with our Sales Tax dollars.
Yeah... when was the last time you tried to do anything with a diesel engine in your ears? Oh, and when your loved one has a heart attack behind the BLS fire station, I'll be sure to let you know the reason the ambulance was 10 minutes later than normal is the one down the road shut their truck off to save fuel and couldn't get it started again.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
From a policy viewpoint, if EMSA didn't view TFD as a COMPETITOR, then the ambulances could actually park and stage out of our Fire Stations.
...
EMSA could easily stage from fire stations. To "stage" is to provision and then deploy for an operation, and then to rest and recover between deployments back at base.
Well that wouldn't work due to call volume and trying to manage the system for equal coverage. That and EMSA and TFD are completely separate services.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Sorry, we all get to continue paying for two duplicative EMT services:
It's the TULSA PREMIUM.
Funny, since just about all other major cities do it just the same way. And it's not a duplicative service, each serves it's own function. Check out a cardiac arrest call in Owasso or Broken Arrow. I bet you see a fire truck there with the ambulance.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Were these Fire Department and EMSA personnel actually working on the City timeclock?
Then, of course they were happy to loaf with you while on the payroll.
Considering EMSA isn't on the city's time clock, that doesn't work either. What about all of the holidays like fourth of July or New Years, or weddings or barbeques, when EMSA and TFD employees enjoy each other company. Oh wait, you wouldn't know.
quote:
Originally posted by Mike G
Here Friendly Bear, let me correct a few of your misconceptions.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Poor Mr. Moss keeled over with a heart attack one warm, summer day mowing his lawn.
His wife called 911, and mistakenly asked for an AMBULANCE.
They lived right behind a Fire Station.
He died before the ambulance got there...
Sometimes people die and you can't fix dead.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
EMSA is merely a Transport Unit.
NOT a First Responder. They could NEVER hack it.
Hauling either Tulsa FD stabilized patients, or future organ transplant donors to local hospitals.
Once the EMT situtation has been stabilized by Tulsa FD, then EMSA transports.
That's the standard protocol.
Actually it's not the standard, or any, protocol at all. TFD does first respond, and EMSA does transport. Both agencies work under the SAME protocols from the SAME medical director. As far as TFD stabilizing a patient... explain how a BLS fire company is going to stabilize a patient with exacerbated COPD? What about the calls that TFD never responds to or is canceled by EMSA?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
As a Tulsa taxpayer, the part I enjoy paying for the most, besides the monthly $3.64 EMSA Tax, is to see EMSA ambulances parked behind Quik-Trips or in shopping center parking lots, with the ENGINES and heaters/Air conditioners RUNNING continuously because EMSA personnel are basically HOMELESS.
Observed one in INACTION a few days ago. The driver was playing with his computer.
His EMT assistant (a female) was ASLEEP in the passenger seat.
How does that justify making them homeless? It's more like a mobile office. And did you actually see that he was 'playing' on his tablet, or was he finishing a PCR since all PCR's are done on tablets?
Oh, and if he was in the driver's seat, odds are he was the EMT and his paramedic PARTNER was probably sleeping because when you work 12 hour shifts (assuming you get off on time), four days a week (heaven forbid you have to pick up overtime shifts because you have bills that are due and you could work many other places and make get paid what you're worth, but you choose to do this job because there are people out there that need help and you are one of the few that have offered themselves to help), it wears you out. How many hours a week do you work? Better yet, how many hours a day? I know I work 13-14... assuming I get off on time. Better run home because I have to be back to work in a few hours.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Mild, 70 degree day, but All windows were UP, and the engine and air conditioner were running continuously.
Sure, why not? We're paying for their fuel with our Sales Tax dollars.
Yeah... when was the last time you tried to do anything with a diesel engine in your ears? Oh, and when your loved one has a heart attack behind the BLS fire station, I'll be sure to let you know the reason the ambulance was 10 minutes later than normal is the one down the road shut their truck off to save fuel and couldn't get it started again.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
From a policy viewpoint, if EMSA didn't view TFD as a COMPETITOR, then the ambulances could actually park and stage out of our Fire Stations.
...
EMSA could easily stage from fire stations. To "stage" is to provision and then deploy for an operation, and then to rest and recover between deployments back at base.
Well that wouldn't work due to call volume and trying to manage the system for equal coverage. That and EMSA and TFD are completely separate services.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Sorry, we all get to continue paying for two duplicative EMT services:
It's the TULSA PREMIUM.
Funny, since just about all other major cities do it just the same way. And it's not a duplicative service, each serves it's own function. Check out a cardiac arrest call in Owasso or Broken Arrow. I bet you see a fire truck there with the ambulance.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Were these Fire Department and EMSA personnel actually working on the City timeclock?
Then, of course they were happy to loaf with you while on the payroll.
Considering EMSA isn't on the city's time clock, that doesn't work either. What about all of the holidays like fourth of July or New Years, or weddings or barbeques, when EMSA and TFD employees enjoy each other company. Oh wait, you wouldn't know.
You're working too hard.
You can take the rest of the week off.
Oh, and EMSA is running their engines 24 x 7 x 365, just so they'll "start" in an emergency.
Sounds like an extremely expensive solution to a non-problem.
Really, I LIKE buying railroad cars full of diesel fuel just so EMSA can sit around Quick-Tripp and idle their engines to stay cool or stay warm.
Really I do.
Mike G declared open season on bears.
Be careful Mike G.
Friendly Bear is jealous of public servants.
He thinks his porridge is too cold and yours is just right.
FB he nailed you fair and square. One wonders if you've ever done that kind of work before. Most diesel rigs leave their engines running. Yes they can be hard to start but they are quite efficient at idle and it keeps the electrics operating. Stuff like laptops, a/c, medical equipment etc. Since the engines are noisy most times you keep the windows closed and the air running but they are tough durable machines.
Another thing. I watch these guys fight through inattentive, selfish, stupid drivers daily just so they can get in position to save someones life. They have medical training that goes on forever, are exposed to scads of dangerous diseases and vermin including those with more guns than brains. And their starting pay for this? I'm told its $8.60 per hour. Give them some respect please.
My dad once was a long-haul truck driver. He told me the reason those diesel engines idled at truck stops when drivers went in to eat was because you'd waste more fuel shutting the engine down and restarting it again.
And, yes, keeping the electronics running in an ambulance is pretty doggone important, too.
FB,
Any chance you are considering moving from this gawd awful city?
Respectfully,
Kenosha
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
FB,
Any chance you are considering moving from this gawd awful city?
Respectfully,
Kenosha
EMSA is the poster-boy of what I term: The Tulsa Premium.
The Tulsa Premium is an inefficient, high-cost delivery system of government services. The Tulsa Premium is associated with our multitude of mini-empires, such as EMSA, TMUA, TAIT, TCC, TTC, TDC, THA, TPS, etc., etc., etc., and they trade favors with each other to maintain and increase their funding.
Most major city governments are smart enough to combine the functions of ambulance, fire and first responder under one organization, namely the Fire Dept.
The city should use EMT-trained fire personnel utilizing 1-ton pickup trucks, with a gasoline engine, with side bins for supplies like bandages, oxygen, medicine, tools, Jaws-of-Life etc.
Then, after responding to a medical emergency and giving first aid, IF NECESSARY, summon the ambulance for transport.
I suspect that 90% of the time there is NO transport after 9-1-1 is called. Any takers on that bet?
Tulsa's service model of having a $400-$600K fire truck followed by an ambulance respond to all medical emergencies is ruinously expensive.
Notice that $3.64 fee that we never had before?
That's just the beginning.
So, a more logical and economical model would have the EMT personnel sitting around the fire station drinking coffee and playing dominoes until they get an emergency call.
I think you overestimate the FD's capabilities and would put our community at risk. Saving lives and putting out fires are two different skill sets. Yes, you can make a fireman do ER work and yes, you can make a nurse put out fires but neither one will be very effective at it.
You may have a point with the burdensome administration of these functions (especially the overpaid top dogs) but keep your argument there. Attacking the workers at the lower levels is just wrong. Office workers, lawyers, doctors all sit around drinking coffee too.
Quick question. Did you see the rescue work the FD did at 101st and Garnett last week?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I think you overestimate the FD's capabilities and would put our community at risk. Saving lives and putting out fires are two different skill sets. Yes, you can make a fireman do ER work and yes, you can make a nurse put out fires but neither one will be very effective at it.
You may have a point with the burdensome administration of these functions (especially the overpaid top dogs) but keep your argument there. Attacking the workers at the lower levels is just wrong. Office workers, lawyers, doctors all sit around drinking coffee too.
Quick question. Did you see the rescue work the FD did at 101st and Garnett last week?
I have no problem with any of the personnel at either organization, EMSA or TFD.
It's the POLICY administration and organization that has been inefficient and bloated.
For decades.
Many fire dept. personnel around the U.S., including those with Tulsa FD, are cross-trained as EMT personnel.
There are pay incentives to achieve the various EMT certification levels, and I believe that Tulsa FD incents their personnel as well.
Once somepme graduates from a fire academy, those who have no aversion to dealing with various bodily fluids may willingly cross-train as EMT's.
Many WANT to cross-train. They are oriented to helping people, and want to save lives.
I applaud that skill-set.
I do NOT applaud EMSA administration, or our chronically inefficient and wasteful city goobermint.
Bear makes a half-hearted pullback in an effort to salvage what's left of his dignity after Mike G. shredded him into itty-bitty pieces.
But, sorry, Bear, you still earn a:
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/funny-pictures-bird-cat-cage.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Bear makes a half-hearted pullback in an effort to salvage what's left of his dignity after Mike G. shredded him into itty-bitty pieces.
But, sorry, Bear, you still earn a:
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/funny-pictures-bird-cat-cage.jpg)
Don't entirely follow your logic there, but you should know by now I obviously have absolutely NO DIGNITY.
None.
If I retained even a shred of Dignity, I would have departed the Banana Republic of Tulsa long, long ago.
Alas, cruel fate and circumstances have kept me here in the Banana Republic of Tulsa.
Nonetheless, I still draw occasional satisfaction from educating a small number of open-minded Forum participants who aspire to an understanding of the local power structure's iron grip on their lives, minds, livelihoods, and fortunes.
[:O]
<FB wrote:
Nonetheless, I still draw occasional satisfaction from educating lying to a small number of uninformed Forum participants who aspire to an understanding of the local power structure's strong grip on their lives, minds and livelihoods.
<end clip>
There, fixed that for you.
Here's what happens when F.B. writes a post using dubious information:
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/failcow.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
<FB wrote:
Nonetheless, I still draw occasional satisfaction from educating lying to a small number of uninformed Forum participants who aspire to an understanding of the local power structure's strong grip on their lives, minds and livelihoods.
<end clip>
There, fixed that for you.
Here's what happens when F.B. writes a post using dubious information:
(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/failcow.jpg)
I feel soooooo unloved.
By the way, feel free to show me where I was lying?
Don't you think that calling a difference in judgment LYING may be just a bit extreme?
Once upon a time a Tulsa police and fire commissioner brought up the question about combining the two departments and place all on 8 hour shifts. The riot of 21 was very near duplicated before the suggestion was withdrawn.
In Tulsa we don't combine departments we create another bureaucracy to make a three year study to see if other cities have tried it.
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
Once upon a time a Tulsa police and fire commissioner brought up the question about combining the two departments and place all on 8 hour shifts. The riot of 21 was very near duplicated before the suggestion was withdrawn.
In Tulsa we don't combine departments we create another bureaucracy to make a three year study to see if other cities have tried it.
There's a lot of truth to that. City Parks (Tulsa,BA,Bixby,Jenks,Owasso,Sand Springs), County Parks, River Parks etc. Lots of duplication and squeels of agony over any attempt to combine. Thats the nature of government anyway.
When I worked at a large oil company one of the oldtimers put it this way: Some oil companies are leaders and some are followers. The leaders take risks but are paid back handsomely. The followers set up watch groups to see what works and take little risk but are generally at greater risk of failure or absorption by the leaders. That company was the now departed Cities Service Oil. Tulsa is for the most part in the follower category.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
Once upon a time a Tulsa police and fire commissioner brought up the question about combining the two departments and place all on 8 hour shifts. The riot of 21 was very near duplicated before the suggestion was withdrawn.
In Tulsa we don't combine departments we create another bureaucracy to make a three year study to see if other cities have tried it.
There's a lot of truth to that. City Parks (Tulsa,BA,Bixby,Jenks,Owasso,Sand Springs), County Parks, River Parks etc. Lots of duplication and squeels of agony over any attempt to combine. Thats the nature of government anyway.
When I worked at a large oil company one of the oldtimers put it this way: Some oil companies are leaders and some are followers. The leaders take risks but are paid back handsomely. The followers set up watch groups to see what works and take little risk but are generally at greater risk of failure or absorption by the leaders. That company was the now departed Cities Service Oil. Tulsa is for the most part in the follower category.
In many major cities, such as Houston, the Fire Dept. paramedics are the First Responders. They are part of the Fire Department organizationally.
As the 4th largest city in the U.S., I would call Houston a major city.
Significantly, these First Responders drive around in eponymous Paramedic trucks, made famous world-wide from the TV series "Emergency".
Remember?
These are relatively low cost vehicles, much less costly than the $400K -$600K fire trucks that the City of Tulsa buys at a very high tempo because they are wearing them out responding to NON-Fire related 9-1-1 calls.
It would be interesting to document the %-age of calls that the Fire Trucks respond to that are NOT fire-related. I suspect that it is a significant majority.
Paramedic trucks on the other hand, are outfitted as a first responder for all types of emergencies, both medical and non-medical. The paramedics are also trained EMT personnel.
And, their vehicles are much more agile and economical than either ambulances which are inherently top heavy and difficult to control when cornering at high speed, or 30-ton fire trucks which are a menace to other drivers on the road due the immense kinetic energy they can impart in a collision with a 3,500 lb sedan.
I'm just patiently waiting for the eventuality of a Tulsa driver, parked compliantly to allow a Fire Truck to pass, getting rear-ended by a 30-ton fire truck and gets killed or seriously injured.
The sedan and driver will lose that unequal contest.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
I'm just patiently waiting for the eventuality of a Tulsa driver, parked compliantly to allow a Fire Truck to pass, getting rear-ended by a 30-ton fire truck and gets killed or seriously injured.
You are patiently waiting for a car/truck crash?
You are a sick Bear.
FB, those are good arguments. I'll have to look up eponymous, but I would like to know what is a non-medical emergency that a first responder ambulance would respond to?
Folding the EMSA into TFD doesn't seem too outrageous but I know this has been argued to death and I just don't remember the points.
As far as the type of vehicles used for medical emergency response, that is a tactical decision that seems less relevant in a forum discussion. I find it hilarious what passes for water rescue in this area but those making the tactical decision to buy may be more informed about what is available and affordable than I am. Maybe.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
I'm just patiently waiting for the eventuality of a Tulsa driver, parked compliantly to allow a Fire Truck to pass, getting rear-ended by a 30-ton fire truck and gets killed or seriously injured.
You are patiently waiting for a car/truck crash?
You are a sick Bear.
Sorry my response bothered you. Keep a Nitro pill handy if you continue reading this.
Patiently waiting.
NOT, Eagerly awaiting.
Patiently waiting because I know our city leaders are impotent to change the EMSA vs. Fire Dept. First Responder status quo of the past 30 years.
A wreck is bound to happen, based on the high tempo's of sorties by 30-ton Fire Trucks responding to someone fainting in a nursing home.
And, when it does, it will probably be bad.
Look for it on one of Tulsa's narrow former farm-to-market roads, like 81st, 91st, or 101st.
Even if you've driven half-way off the road into the bar ditch, the firetruck's wake shakes your car when it blows past.
Va-roo00000m!
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
FB, those are good arguments. I'll have to look up eponymous, but I would like to know what is a non-medical emergency that a first responder ambulance would respond to?
Folding the EMSA into TFD doesn't seem too outrageous but I know this has been argued to death and I just don't remember the points.
As far as the type of vehicles used for medical emergency response, that is a tactical decision that seems less relevant in a forum discussion. I find it hilarious what passes for water rescue in this area but those making the tactical decision to buy may be more informed about what is available and affordable than I am. Maybe.
When a Fire Truck responds to a medical emergency as the First Responder, they come equiped to deal with situations that are beyond the capabilities of the EMSA ambulance crews.
For instance, the Fire Truck has axes and pry-bars to get into houses to care for someone who's unconscious and cannot answer the door.
They have pry-bars and the jaws-of-life to open up crushed cars like a sardine can lid to give emergency medical car to car wreck victims. Again, beyond the capability of EMSA personnel.
TFD also have chains saws to rescue someone injured from fallen debris, trees, etc.
All of that type equipment is carried on the Paramedic one-ton trucks used by other major cities.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Then, after responding to a medical emergency and giving first aid, IF NECESSARY, summon the ambulance for transport.
I suspect that 90% of the time there is NO transport after 9-1-1 is called. Any takers on that bet?
It's more in the neighborhood of 70-80% of calls are transported. Out of an average of 8-10 calls, maybe 1-3 aren't transported. Same days are higher, some are lower. Most people call 911 and ask for an ambulance because they need to go to the hospital via an ambulance. I mean, you don't call 911 for the fire dept. for a fire and just expect them to show up and go "yep, that's a fire, put water on it" and then leave?
As far as calling 911 for a medical, having someone come out, and then call for an ambulance. I can see the lawsuits now, which is the same reason EMSA responds on a lot of calls like man down calls that other cities would just send PD (along with the wait time), then when PD gets out there, goes "Oh crap, he died 10 minutes ago". Case in point, last week, a call went out to the bus stop at 81st and Lewis for a man down. Crew got there, the patient was awake and within literally minutes, he went into cardiac arrest. Had the crew not been there to start with, look how much more time it would have taken to get him on the road to the hospital.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
So, a more logical and economical model would have the EMT personnel sitting around the fire station drinking coffee and playing dominoes until they get an emergency call.
Considering the current call volume, they wouldn't get the opportunity to play dominoes and drink coffee very often. Not only that, but they would demand a pay increase for the added work. Since EMSA mainly pays for itself, with only asking $3 mil from the city to subsidize the medi-care cutbacks and the increase in operations costs, how much would the city really save by adding lots of new EMT and paramedics to the fire department which is paid for exclusively by tax-payers?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Many fire dept. personnel around the U.S., including those with Tulsa FD, are cross-trained as EMT personnel.
There are pay incentives to achieve the various EMT certification levels, and I believe that Tulsa FD incents their personnel as well.
Yes, most FD's do cross-train. And if you consider around $200/mo. incentive to actually work on an ambulance in addition to the other fire dept. stuff, most fire fighters will tell you that you are nuts. The ones that work at TFD that want to work on an ambulance already work for EMSA, and can made $200 in less than two shifts (sometimes one). So they would want a larger pay raise, which would in turn increase the fire depts. budget, which was in the neighborhood of $56 mil.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I find it hilarious that every time shadows rails against the storm water fee or Tulsa's storm water system, a monster downpour occurs that completely justifies their existence.
I live on the west side, and Jones Airport has recorded more than 6 1/2 inches of rain in three days. You'd be hard-pressed to find any municipality that could handle that much rain in such a short time. But Tulsa's system worked like a champ.
Wow and how many floods did we have when 6 inches was spread out over 3 days with a day in between those to dry out the first day[^]
idiot
Opt out can only be done between June 1 and June 30.
Apparently, the Council is looking at allowing telephone opt out, where previously, it could only be done by signing your life away. Hooray!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080423_1_A13_hThec50745
I think it's really crappy that the City of Tulsa lets a FOR PROFIT CORPORATION use the equipment that is paid for by the citizens of Tulsa to MAKE A PROFIT and then ask for a subsidy when the profit isn't enough. I think it's crass to allow an OUT OF STATE PRIVATE COMPANY fleece the taxpayers. Let's not even get started on the subpar employees. I seem to remember back in 99 when a one eyed paramedic was driving, blew through an intersection and killed an old man. It then took the literally brain damaged dispatcher 5 minutes to figure out that the crew was asking for help. I'm sure this has all been settled and kept hush hush. IF Tulsa knows what is good for it, they will get rid of EMSA and H. Stephen "J. Edgar" Williamson. Nice to suck at the public tit for 30 years, isn't it, Uncle Stevie?
quote:
Originally posted by mrpeach
I think it's really crappy that the City of Tulsa lets a FOR PROFIT CORPORATION use the equipment that is paid for by the citizens of Tulsa to MAKE A PROFIT and then ask for a subsidy when the profit isn't enough. I think it's crass to allow an OUT OF STATE PRIVATE COMPANY fleece the taxpayers. Let's not even get started on the subpar employees. I seem to remember back in 99 when a one eyed paramedic was driving, blew through an intersection and killed an old man. It then took the literally brain damaged dispatcher 5 minutes to figure out that the crew was asking for help. I'm sure this has all been settled and kept hush hush. IF Tulsa knows what is good for it, they will get rid of EMSA and H. Stephen "J. Edgar" Williamson. Nice to suck at the public tit for 30 years, isn't it, Uncle Stevie?
Wow, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about do you?
What really smells is that EMSA raised over $5 million last year with the "Opt-Out" program. The subsidy needed was just over $2 million , was it not?
Seems like it should be a free year this year, so the overage can be spent properly [;)]
EMSA stopped billing water customers their copays, deductibles and other costs when this started. Which meant EMSA would collect a few million less than previously planned. Which was why $5m was collected but only $2m needed for city funding. The rest was to make up for the money not billed to water customers who took an ambulance ride. All by design, no smoke and mirros.
I hope I don't need an ambulance, but if I do, I don't want to be worrying about how to pay for it.
I consider this to be a function of local government, just like police, fire, etc.
I also think it is appropriate to bill me a monthly charge instead of a big bill when I call them.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I hope I don't need an ambulance, but if I do, I don't want to be worrying about how to pay for it.
I consider this to be a function of local government, just like police, fire, etc.
I also think it is appropriate to bill me a monthly charge instead of a big bill when I call them.
Years ago when St. Francis started it's air ambulance service (Lifeflight), many of the ER docs started calling it "The Death Star" because if you were "lucky" enough to be transported to the hospital by Lifeflight, you were rewarded with an enormous $5,000 bill for your flight (I'm sure it's much more now). No peanuts, no in-flight movie. Granted, they saved lives, but they also transported lots of patients that would be just fine with an extra 20 minutes in a ground unit.
I have no problem paying for EMSA, because I know that some day I, or a member of my family will need it. I do get mad when I see people abuse the system, and it does happen all the time!
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I hope I don't need an ambulance, but if I do, I don't want to be worrying about how to pay for it.
I consider this to be a function of local government, just like police, fire, etc.
I also think it is appropriate to bill me a monthly charge instead of a big bill when I call them.
Depending on the Health Insurance plan, there may be NO NEED to separately pay for the EMSA coverage.
Reason: It's provided by the health insurance carrier.
For instance, the local Medicate Part B Supplement HMO's negotiate a transport fee with EMSA.
It's ususally $50.00 for a hospital transport; however, if the patient is admitted to the hospital, the $50.00 EMSA fee is waived.
Therefore, there is no need for these Medicare Part B HMO patients to even have the separate coverage direct from EMSA.
Also, now that June 1st has arrived, has anyone actually tried to call the City Utilities Dept. @ 596-9511 to OPT-OUT of the EMSA fee?
Does the Utilities Dept. Customer Service Rep. provide a CONFIRMATION NUMBER for those callers that opt-out?
Otherwise, how can the caller later PROVE they phoned in to Opt-Out during the Opt-Out Time Window of June 1 - June 30th?
I'm not ready to suggest that the City of Tulsa will try to cram EMSA coverage down the city water ratepayers throats, again.
Then again, they just might...........
Curiously, I also noticed that this year there is NO OPT-OUT form posted on the EMSA website.....
Hmmmmh?
quote:
Originally posted by mrpeach
I think it's really crappy that the City of Tulsa lets a FOR PROFIT CORPORATION use the equipment that is paid for by the citizens of Tulsa to MAKE A PROFIT and then ask for a subsidy when the profit isn't enough. I think it's crass to allow an OUT OF STATE PRIVATE COMPANY fleece the taxpayers. Let's not even get started on the subpar employees. I seem to remember back in 99 when a one eyed paramedic was driving, blew through an intersection and killed an old man. It then took the literally brain damaged dispatcher 5 minutes to figure out that the crew was asking for help. I'm sure this has all been settled and kept hush hush. IF Tulsa knows what is good for it, they will get rid of EMSA and H. Stephen "J. Edgar" Williamson. Nice to suck at the public tit for 30 years, isn't it, Uncle Stevie?
Wow. How does it feel to be misinformed or maybe you are just really brain damaged yourself. That EMSA Paramedic was infact without one eye. However he was driving in anappropriate manner and following all safety rules regarding emergency response. The unfortunate driver of the car that he collided with did die. Now truth be told, that driver ran the intersection in front of the ambulance. That ambulance was fitted with an accident camera which records the time immediately before and after an accident. It does include the vehicles speed. It was tragic that a man lost his life but in no way the fault of an excellent Paramedic who happens to be without one eye.
By the way, regarding subpar employees. In case you were not informed. (Which we can all see) The emergency medical services in this city have been hailed not only nation wide but world wide, as one of the top systems anywhere. And your chance for surviving a cardiac arrest are better here than almost anywhere. Hope you dont need to find that out first hand but you never know....[^]
I am amazed at the lack of factual information being vomitted out onto this forum. Less than $4.00 per month. Some of you cannot even buy a pack of the cigarettes that will eventually require you to call an ambulance twice a week or the bottle of wine that will cause you to wreck your cars and kill yourself or someone else. Again requiring the services of an ambulance.
You spew on and on about TFD an all thier glory. Truth be told most of thier Paamedics have no quality street experience and cannot hardly start an IV in good time. You would rather see EMS take a 30 year step backwards in the name of $3.64 a month.
FB is an idiot. He has obviously been done wrong by someone or maybe just needs a hug. One thing is certain. I want to be there when he needs an ambulance and his insuance tells him it wasnt necessary or says they will only pay 70%. I think it is clear that he most likley opted out.
quote:
Originally posted by Jason
I am amazed at the lack of factual information being vomitted out onto this forum. Less than $4.00 per month. Some of you cannot even buy a pack of the cigarettes that will eventually require you to call an ambulance twice a week or the bottle of wine that will cause you to wreck your cars and kill yourself or someone else. Again requiring the services of an ambulance.
You spew on and on about TFD an all thier glory. Truth be told most of thier Paamedics have no quality street experience and cannot hardly start an IV in good time. You would rather see EMS take a 30 year step backwards in the name of $3.64 a month.
FB is an idiot. He has obviously been done wrong by someone or maybe just needs a hug. One thing is certain. I want to be there when he needs an ambulance and his insuance tells him it wasnt necessary or says they will only pay 70%. I think it is clear that he most likley opted out.
The fact is many people are already covered for an ambulance transport by their private or Medicare Part B health insurance.
So, these people do NOT need the mandatory monthly EMSA fee because they actually already have coverage through their insurance.
Any decision should be made on an individual basis, rather than in Knee-Jerk Group-Think fashion.
FB: the fact is that the majority of people who have Medicare or insurance still have a copay or deductible that is over the EMSA fee amount.
Another fact: insurance and Medicare regularly deny claims. Some most certainly should be denied (the federal government shouldn't be paying for people to use an ambulance if they have a papercut), but Medicare also denies very legit claims... times when a reasonable person could logically assume that calling 911 was necessary. In those instances, when Medicare or insurance denies a claim, the patient pays the EMSA bill if they opt-out. This happened in my family - when the physician's assistant at the minor emergency center called for an ambulance to take my husband to the hospital. (Insurance wouldn't reconsider; we were EMSA members though and didn't have to pay.)
If the judgment of medical staff can so easily be discounted by insurance adjusters, then imagine what chance Average Joe has....
Don't know where you get your information but it's not all correct and some is just opinion. First, EMSA is mandated by the City charter to respond to all life threatening emergencies within 8:59, the average EMSA response time however is between 5-6 minutes. Secondly the myth that TFD always shows up before EMSA is also false. During the daytime hours TFD arrives before EMSA about half of the time and at night it is even rarer. Third point, EMSA is not simply a transport unit. The paramedics that respond in those ambulances are highly trained emergency medical professionals who can save your life with their expertise and tools. They don't simply drive people to the hospital and call it good. If that all a person needs they should call a cab not 911.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by CoffeeBean
Civil disobedience would be in order if ambulance service wasn't a matter of life-or-death.
Imagine the newly christened trolley being replaced with calls for EMSA service.
Actually, EMSA isn't a FIRST Responder.
The Tulsa Fire Dept. is the First Responder.
Why?
EMSA lacks the density of vehicles to rapidly respond to medical emergencies within the metropolitan area.
Reported Former Local Government Greenmail Grifter and Radio Shock Jock Jon Erling Frette used to read us the very abysmal and SCARRY EMSA Response Times on his KRMG radio spot just for laughs.
Remember?
That's before EMSA started paying his wife Margritte for "lobbying" on behalf of EMSA.
Then Big Jon miraculously lightened up.
Just a coincidence?
Sure.
Quid Pro Quo?
Nah.
Just the Tulsa Premium.
Again.
Were our Local Gifted Grifters merely shaking down various local Goobermint entities to the tune of $200K per annum to possibly buy "peace" with the notorious local Shock Jock?
Margritte helped bring us Grate Planes Airlines as their Lobbyist.
Remember?
Where did those $40 million in state and local tax dollars REALLY go?
Does she know where the bodies are buried....?
By the way, just for LAUGHS, hang around a local nursing home a few days.
They get regular Emergency Medical calls. Poor dears.
See which EMT vehicle ALWAYS shows up for the EMT:
It's the $400K-$600K Tulsa Fire Truck, getting a maximum 4 MPG for responding to a fainting spell.
Burning up the Tulsa roadways at 4 MPG to respond to a fainting spell.
And, burning of your Itty Bitty 3rd Penny Sales Tax dollars for brand new shiny Red Fire Trucks, at the tune of $400 - $600K per.
Instead of improving streets and roads in Tulsa.
Third Penny expenditures dropping to a paltry 28% of Third Penny expenditures at the latest Itty Bitty Third Penny Sales Tax renewal.
But, TFD has lots of big, new shiny red firetrucks to play with.
And TPD has big, new shiny police cruisers to commute home to Mannford, B.A., Jenks, Sapulpa, Sand Springs, Kellyville, Skiatook, Collinsville, and Owasso.
Your TAX Dollars at WASTE.
It's the TULSA PREMIUM.
Again.
EMSA is merely a Transport Unit.
NOT a First Responder. They could NEVER hack it.
Hauling either Tulsa FD stabilized patients, or future organ transplant donors to local hospitals.
Once the EMT situtation has been stabilized by Tulsa FD, then EMSA transports.
That's the standard protocol.
It's another: TULSA PREMIUM.
At a new mere $3.64 per customer per month. Mere peanuts considering increasing property taxes, fuel, electricity, groceries, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Forever.
Welcome to the New World Order.
[:O]
Friendly Bear doesn't care about the truth or facts. He just wakes up from his hibernation every few weeks and poops on threads.
quote:
Originally posted by OkieDiva
FB: the fact is that the majority of people who have Medicare or insurance still have a copay or deductible that is over the EMSA fee amount.
Another fact: insurance and Medicare regularly deny claims. Some most certainly should be denied (the federal government shouldn't be paying for people to use an ambulance if they have a papercut), but Medicare also denies very legit claims... times when a reasonable person could logically assume that calling 911 was necessary. In those instances, when Medicare or insurance denies a claim, the patient pays the EMSA bill if they opt-out. This happened in my family - when the physician's assistant at the minor emergency center called for an ambulance to take my husband to the hospital. (Insurance wouldn't reconsider; we were EMSA members though and didn't have to pay.)
If the judgment of medical staff can so easily be discounted by insurance adjusters, then imagine what chance Average Joe has....
If you're a Senior Citizen on a Medicare HMO like PacifiCare or CommunityCare, then your co-pay for ambulance transport is $50.00 per person per transport. That fee is WAIVED if the patient is admitted to a hospital.
So, in fact, there may be ZERO co-pay, depending on the circumstances.
FB: that's ONLY if your HMO approves the claim. You are assuming that it will approve 100% of claims... and that is a very expensive assumption. If you have insurance or Medicare and they deny a claim - for whatever reason - the patient pays full billed charges.
It's logical to assume that an insurance company/a Medicare plan would refuse a claim if the ambulance was called because a person had a papercut or a hangnail. But what about a person exhibiting signs of stroke... and after an MRI, proves to be a medication reaction? What about a person with a family history of heart disease who suffers chest pain... and after testing, proves to be indigestion? Insurance can and often does deny claims like these.
The bottom line - something I hope we can agree on - is that people would be well-advised to contact their insurance companies and to read the fine print in their policies. Ask specific questions and pose what-if scenarios. Find out the facts from the source - not from bears, divas and other animals of the web forest - and find them out BEFORE you are in a crisis situation.
I am glad to pay twelve cents a day for ambulance service. We have unfortunately needed an ambulance twice in the last two years. One was when my mother-in-law had some chest pain and the second was when my daughter fell off a playground and broke her arm.
The peace of mind of knowing I would get an ambulance quickly and wouldn't have to figure out how to pay for it was well worth the small amount of money we are charged.
I just think that friendly bear has something against ambulances. He must have been scared by the sirens when he was a cub.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I am glad to pay twelve cents a day for ambulance service. We have unfortunately needed an ambulance twice in the last two years. One was when my mother-in-law had some chest pain and the second was when my daughter fell off a playground and broke her arm.
The peace of mind of knowing I would get an ambulance quickly and wouldn't have to figure out how to pay for it was well worth the small amount of money we are charged.
I just think that friendly bear has something against ambulances. He must have been scared by the sirens when he was a cub.
While I agree the plan is reasonable.. it is rather curious that EMSA bills your Insurance company for you and then picks up either the difference or the whole thing if they (your insurance company) don't foot the bill.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I am glad to pay twelve cents a day for ambulance service. We have unfortunately needed an ambulance twice in the last two years. One was when my mother-in-law had some chest pain and the second was when my daughter fell off a playground and broke her arm.
The peace of mind of knowing I would get an ambulance quickly and wouldn't have to figure out how to pay for it was well worth the small amount of money we are charged.
I just think that friendly bear has something against ambulances. He must have been scared by the sirens when he was a cub.
You've had that option all along before the new way of catching un-aware residents.
Got to wonder how well EMSA is being ran when a Creek County ambulance covered a call at Peoria and I-44 for them Wednesday. Curious as to why EMSA couldn't take care of it[?]
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I am glad to pay twelve cents a day for ambulance service. We have unfortunately needed an ambulance twice in the last two years. One was when my mother-in-law had some chest pain and the second was when my daughter fell off a playground and broke her arm.
you called an ambulance for a broken arm? ****in a you are the reason the EMSA fees will only go up.[B)]
when I broke my arm as a kid my parents hauled me 30 minutes to the hospital and it was set. done deal.
No. I did not call an ambulance. It happened when we were at church. My daughter missed the landing off the playground monkey bars. My wife in I were in the service and the church people had already called the ambulance before we were even found in the sanctuary.
I am glad you are such a tough guy. But trying to attack me without the facts of my situation means you are not a smart guy.
And when you were a kid, Inteller, the local funeral home ran the ambulance service. No parent in his right mind would have called for help... too much of a vested interest in providing bad care.
Children can be very badly hurt - even killed - in playground accidents. That's why there are so many restrictions on surfacing, spacing, etc. on public playground facilities and those at licensed schools. RM's daughter could have broken a rib in the fall and punctured a lung, suffered a serious concussion or who knows (and none of us wants to think about) what else.
I can't imagine any informed parent or competent caregiver NOT calling for emergency help in a similar situation...
You've had that option all along before the new way of catching un-aware residents.
Got to wonder how well EMSA is being ran when a Creek County ambulance covered a call at Peoria and I-44 for them Wednesday. Curious as to why EMSA couldn't take care of it[?]
[/quote]
Another uninformed citizen strikes again.
There is what is known as a "Mutual Aid" agreements between communities that are close to one another. It secures Emergency Ambulance services for the people of each community in the event that their ambulance service is overwhelmed by large call volumes. This situation does happen from time to time. EMSA has in fact called Creek county and Owasso EMS to assist on occasion. However, EMSA provides this service for each of these communities more regularly than they recieve it. Unfortunatley, the number of calls that need an ambulance from day to day cannot be known exactly. It has to be guessed. While EMSA Does very well nearly everyday, on a rare day they do ask for help rather than tell someone that there is no one to help them.
quote:
Originally posted by Jason
You've had that option all along before the new way of catching un-aware residents.
Got to wonder how well EMSA is being ran when a Creek County ambulance covered a call at Peoria and I-44 for them Wednesday. Curious as to why EMSA couldn't take care of it[?]
Another uninformed citizen strikes again.
There is what is known as a "Mutual Aid" agreements between communities that are close to one another. It secures Emergency Ambulance services for the people of each community in the event that their ambulance service is overwhelmed by large call volumes. This situation does happen from time to time. EMSA has in fact called Creek county and Owasso EMS to assist on occasion. However, EMSA provides this service for each of these communities more regularly than they recieve it. Unfortunatley, the number of calls that need an ambulance from day to day cannot be known exactly. It has to be guessed. While EMSA Does very well nearly everyday, on a rare day they do ask for help rather than tell someone that there is no one to help them.
[/quote]
Maybe they should spend the extra millions they stole last year on more manpower. Then our tax dollars might stretch father without using TFD as much [;)]
Maybe they should spend the extra millions they stole last year on more manpower. Then our tax dollars might stretch father without using TFD as much [;)]
[/quote]
The little wink does not make your statement any more correct. It just means to me that you will frown when you realize that I am right. EMSA has stolen no moeny from anyone. THe money that is collected, by legal means, is used to save lives and coer the cost of it for people who dont have the money to do it. FB puked on about about a $50.00 co-pay for services to medicare patients. I wonder if anyone realizes how many of those patients are not admitted to the hospitals. Not to mention many of them go more than once a month by ambulance to the local ER. $50.00 is more than the annual cost of the water bill subsidy. Saving the people's lives and money...Does it get better....?
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Got to wonder how well EMSA is being ran when a Creek County ambulance covered a call at Peoria and I-44 for them Wednesday. Curious as to why EMSA couldn't take care of it[?]
There's a lot more to that situation that meets the eye. Was the Creek County truck called to the scene for mutual aid, or did they stumble on it on their way back home? What about the local hospitals? Were the ERs overloaded? If so, that means there was multiple EMSA trucks sitting with patients on their cots at the ER. They can't leave until they get their patient off they cot. Was there a large event going on, like the apartment fire at 21st and 101st East Ave? Those will temporarily overload EMSA, then what happens if those 3-5 ambulances from that event are held up at the hospital because the ER is overloaded.
Like Jason said, communities mutual aid each fairly often when they get overloaded. Services have to staff what is reasonable and cost effective, which sometimes you just get a mass influx of calls. What would your opinion be if EMSA took any extra money and added more trucks and crews on duty for that once-in-a-while overload? Then you would see more ambulances sitting around and complain about how EMSA is wasting money letting all of these extra ambulances just sit around wasting gas.
EMSA spends a large amount (compared to other services) of money calculating how many trucks they need for each hour of the day to meet call volume and staff to meet that number and not much over. It's a very efficient and effective system. EMSA also has to meet a time standard to calls, so they staff to meet that need. And if they don't have an ambulance to send when you call 911, they will call someone else so you will get an ambulance. People in some other cities don't have that luxury. They have to wait until they ambulance(s) for their town/city come out of the hospital before an ambulance is sent to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Mike G
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
Got to wonder how well EMSA is being ran when a Creek County ambulance covered a call at Peoria and I-44 for them Wednesday. Curious as to why EMSA couldn't take care of it[?]
There's a lot more to that situation that meets the eye. Was the Creek County truck called to the scene for mutual aid, or did they stumble on it on their way back home? What about the local hospitals? Were the ERs overloaded? If so, that means there was multiple EMSA trucks sitting with patients on their cots at the ER. They can't leave until they get their patient off they cot. Was there a large event going on, like the apartment fire at 21st and 101st East Ave? Those will temporarily overload EMSA, then what happens if those 3-5 ambulances from that event are held up at the hospital because the ER is overloaded.
Like Jason said, communities mutual aid each fairly often when they get overloaded. Services have to staff what is reasonable and cost effective, which sometimes you just get a mass influx of calls. What would your opinion be if EMSA took any extra money and added more trucks and crews on duty for that once-in-a-while overload? Then you would see more ambulances sitting around and complain about how EMSA is wasting money letting all of these extra ambulances just sit around wasting gas.
EMSA spends a large amount (compared to other services) of money calculating how many trucks they need for each hour of the day to meet call volume and staff to meet that number and not much over. It's a very efficient and effective system. EMSA also has to meet a time standard to calls, so they staff to meet that need. And if they don't have an ambulance to send when you call 911, they will call someone else so you will get an ambulance. People in some other cities don't have that luxury. They have to wait until they ambulance(s) for their town/city come out of the hospital before an ambulance is sent to them.
Ambulance services are sort of like police departments. Sometimes a big disaster happens, and you need "all hands on deck," which includes emegency services from other locations.
Also, if an out-of-area ambulance or cop happens to encounter an emergency situation, they will intervene out of a sense of professionalism and decency. Time is crucial in such events, and I'd be shocked if an ambulance driver or cop was chewed out because he/she intervened during a situation that was "outside the jurisdiction."