Man, I can't believe you guys haven't jumped on this. Whadaya, tired or something?
From Tulsa World (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080326_1_A1_hThes24500%22)
quote:
Economic impact of HB 1804 estimated
By GINNIE GRAHAM World Staff Writer
3/26/2008
The state bankers association says the loss could be $1.8 billion.
If 50,000 immigrants leave Oklahoma, the state would lose about $1.8 billion annually in productivity and wages, according to a study released Tuesday by the Oklahoma Bankers Association...
Is it worth it? I have an opinion.
LOL
Bull****.....
This "study" is poorly constructed ... and even if is was correct, we are still doing the right thing, because illegal immigration is ILLEGAL.
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
This "study" is poorly constructed ... and even if is was correct, we are still doing the right thing, because illegal immigration is ILLEGAL.
What he said...
Feh, highly speculative numbers. I also caught the point of them not taking sides on the issue.
BB.....explain yourself. Just once.
Productivity AND wages of $36,000 a piece?
The story sounds like a load of crap.
If the numbers accurate I think it shows that we had a serious illegal immigration problem before HB1804 and there there were a lot of businesses owners out there breaking the law.
This is just another boo hoo poor illegals and poor scumbag business who hired illegals sob story that the liberal media occasionally likes to run.I remember another boo hoo poor illegals sob story they did a while back.It was about how this poor family had some relative who they are hiding is somehow trying to become legal,while at the same time failing to mention the fact he didn't give a rats donkey about being legal before 1804 went into effect.
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
... and even if is was correct, we are still doing the right thing, because illegal immigration is ILLEGAL.
Having a drink in the privacy of your home was also illegal at one time.
It was still done, though, and the crime that flourished as a direct result if it's criminalization was of historic proportions.
WOW! Another ridiculous story. What a supprise! [:O]
I've got to make a point to read the Tulsa World less often!
They had to dig pretty far to find that dubious information to support their agenda! But more so, it's the Bankers Association that should be shamed.
Shame on the Bankers Association! I know that the banks make hefty fees on wiring money out of the country, but even implying support for an illegal activity, by making it sound good for our economy is disgusting!
I love how they use the word "Productivity," as if only immigrants are capable of productivity. What they really mean is "labor."
Sorry! I couldn't let this go!
I can't understand why some politicians rage for a higher minimum wage with one side of their mouth, but then defend paying an illegal alien $3.50 an hr to work a 80 hour week?
If we grew poppies and produced Oklahoma Heroine, I'm sure we could make billions, fix the roads, fund schools, and build ball parks, but it's illegal!
Just like heroine, we have to break our addiction to cheap labor, and start paying workers what their worth. Why is this so hard for some people to swallow? Yes! it's going to cost more, and the withdraw is going to be difficult. But we are being viewed as an example for the whole country.
I guess I'm so sensitive on this subject because on Monday someone sent me a radio broadcast from NPR (from Jan or Feb I think), that talked about Oklahoma's tough new immigration reform bill. The broadcast started by painting a picture of Tulsa as a ghost town. The reporter said that half finished buildings were sitting wrapped in Tyvek with piles of bricks around them. Houses were left abandon with no one to live in them or build them. Businesses had packed up and moved to other states. They painted Tulsa as a deserted, dried up, hopeless town because of our immigration bill. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
They interviewed a nurse or doctor that said babies were left to die because their parents were afraid to go to the hospital for fear that they would be deported.
The more I listened, the madder I got! None of it was real. The entire story was ridiculous! But it is one version of the story that the rest of the world is hearing.
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
Sorry! I couldn't let this go!
I can't understand why some politicians rage for a higher minimum wage with one side of their mouth, but then defend paying an illegal alien $3.50 an hr to work a 80 hour week?
If we grew poppies and produced Oklahoma Heroine, I'm sure we could make billions, fix the roads, fund schools, and build ball parks, but it's illegal!
Just like heroine, we have to break our addiction to cheap labor, and start paying workers what their worth. Why is this so hard for some people to swallow? Yes! it's going to cost more, and the withdraw is going to be difficult. But we are being viewed as an example for the whole country.
I guess I'm so sensitive on this subject because on Monday someone sent me a radio broadcast from NPR (from Jan or Feb I think), that talked about Oklahoma's tough new immigration reform bill. The broadcast started by painting a picture of Tulsa as a ghost town. The reporter said that half finished buildings were sitting wrapped in Tyvek with piles of bricks around them. Houses were left abandon with no one to live in them or build them. Businesses had packed up and moved to other states. They painted Tulsa as a deserted, dried up, hopeless town because of our immigration bill. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
They interviewed a nurse or doctor that said babies were left to die because their parents were afraid to go to the hospital for fear that they would be deported.
The more I listened, the madder I got! None of it was real. The entire story was ridiculous! But it is one version of the story that the rest of the world is hearing.
Do you think the law is enforceable? I don't. So its likely the underground system that has operated to business' advantage will become even more sophisticated because I assure you, the minimum wage and wages in general for the type of work they did, will not be raised to match the demand. Not in this state anyway. Even if it was we lack the skilled and willing workers.
The alcohol prohibition scenario mentioned above is a good example of what happens when you try to artificially and bluntly clamp off demand. Might as well legislate an end to gravity. Of course we needed to address the problem and manage it. This law addressed it alright but will likely direct the demand farther underground.
If you think illegals are getting paid below minimum wage you need to wake up....They get as much as a legal worker with the same skill level....
Waterboy, way to completely avoid Gaspar's well-reasoned and thoughtful post.
And by the way, tell us more about this underground system of labor; because the way I see it, unless this illegal labor is occurring literally underground or otherwise out of the sight of the people, there is no place to hide. Plus, who wants to risk felony charges for merely assisting in this underground system.
I tend to agree with Waterboy's assessment of the enforceability. Hispanics are not and are not going to be randomly profiled and asked to prove citizenship. If anything, it's made Hispanics more wary of law enforcement and has probably made them much more cognizant and adherant to our laws.
School enrollment numbers are not down as significantly as anyone expected. Hispanics are still working away in industrial laundries, machine shops, metal plating plants, trimming trees, mowing yards, and yes covering Tyvek with brick veneer on commercial and residential construction projects.
Has there been a loss of workers and residents? Yes. Has it been and will it be the major cataclysm predicted by opponents, no.
Many are taking the risk and staying behind.
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
I guess I'm so sensitive on this subject because on Monday someone sent me a radio broadcast from NPR (from Jan or Feb I think), that talked about Oklahoma's tough new immigration reform bill. The broadcast started by painting a picture of Tulsa as a ghost town. The reporter said that half finished buildings were sitting wrapped in Tyvek with piles of bricks around them. Houses were left abandon with no one to live in them or build them. Businesses had packed up and moved to other states. They painted Tulsa as a deserted, dried up, hopeless town because of our immigration bill. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
They interviewed a nurse or doctor that said babies were left to die because their parents were afraid to go to the hospital for fear that they would be deported.
The more I listened, the madder I got! None of it was real. The entire story was ridiculous! But it is one version of the story that the rest of the world is hearing.
Every story I hear regarding 1804 involves Tulsa. I have yet to hear one about OKC though. Why is that?
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
If you think illegals are getting paid below minimum wage you need to wake up....They get as much as a legal worker with the same skill level....
You wake up.
Where did you get that I thought illegals were paid less than legal workers? I wouldn't know. I spoke about the increased demand for workers, both skilled and unskilled that will naturally occur if the labor pool decreases which would put pressure on wages to increase, which is always opposed by business.
It is the economic IMPACT numbers, not the resulting loss in wages. It has very little to do with the actual illegal immigrants, rather their economic output. And keep in mind an individual economic output has a residual effect.
If a home builder can not finish framing a house then dry wallers plumbers, roofers, Realors and mortgage brokers lose business too (read: bank customers). If an immigrant who earns $10 an hour moves out of Tulsa we sell less gas, rent less apartments, barbers cut less hair, and every other general service sector declines. The overall decline was $1.8 Billion. BUT, going forward there will be an inflow of immigration to offset the losses.
The study estimates a total loss of $1.3 Billion per annum in the long run as new residence pick up the slack. Unfortunately economics dictates that a contractor can not replace 4 Mexicans at $7 an hour with 4 "Americans" at $15. More importantly, the types of unskilled jobs that were vacated will not draw the required immigration to fill them (people generally don't move out of state for $15 an hour) and at full employment there are not enough Oklahoma's to fill the positions.
The cold hard fact is cheap labor makes money for our economy and saves US, the consumers, money.
This study did NOT attempt to justify illegal immigration. It was a study looking at the loss of cheap labor and the cost of that on the greater Oklahoma economy. Comparing the $1.3 billion loss to the $250,000,000 public subsidy the law costs Oklahoma over $1 BILLION a year. I've read over the study and it seems about as sound as one of these things gets (they adopted some numbers and many others were estimates, but all seemed reasonable to me, but clearly there is room on either side).
ANYWAY, the Bankers were clear that they are not commenting on the law. It is not their position to make a judgment on immigration. They look at numbers, and the numbers on HB 1804 say it is an economic loser for Oklahoma, and Oklahoma Bankers.
So applaud 1804 if you would like on the merits of the action itself, but if you haven't even looked at nor understand the study refrain from bashing the findings.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
I guess I'm so sensitive on this subject because on Monday someone sent me a radio broadcast from NPR (from Jan or Feb I think), that talked about Oklahoma's tough new immigration reform bill. The broadcast started by painting a picture of Tulsa as a ghost town. The reporter said that half finished buildings were sitting wrapped in Tyvek with piles of bricks around them. Houses were left abandon with no one to live in them or build them. Businesses had packed up and moved to other states. They painted Tulsa as a deserted, dried up, hopeless town because of our immigration bill. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
They interviewed a nurse or doctor that said babies were left to die because their parents were afraid to go to the hospital for fear that they would be deported.
The more I listened, the madder I got! None of it was real. The entire story was ridiculous! But it is one version of the story that the rest of the world is hearing.
Every story I hear regarding 1804 involves Tulsa. I have yet to hear one about OKC though. Why is that?
I dunno. Liberals love to hate on Tulsa because it's so conservative?
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Waterboy, way to completely avoid Gaspar's well-reasoned and thoughtful post.
And by the way, tell us more about this underground system of labor; because the way I see it, unless this illegal labor is occurring literally underground or otherwise out of the sight of the people, there is no place to hide. Plus, who wants to risk felony charges for merely assisting in this underground system.
Thanks. Just doing my job.
Do you know any CPA's that have covered for their employers "indiscretions" in hiring? I knew one. He assured me he wasn't the only one. Here's a surprise for you Guido. Not all Hispanics...look hispanic! Not all guys named Guido are...Italian either.[;)] Clever business men hide there less palatable operations just like mobsters hide money and cake-eaters use swiss accounts.
Out of the sight of the public? How much does the public really see? Very little. Pickle in West Tulsa? Who saw that? We're talking people who flaunt laws with felony punishments all the time. Enough money and pressure from your boss and its a calculated risk. One single employee at a west Tulsa refinery pumped wax into the river just to keep his job.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
If you think illegals are getting paid below minimum wage you need to wake up....They get as much as a legal worker with the same skill level....
You wake up.
Where did you get that I thought illegals were paid less than legal workers? I wouldn't know. I spoke about the increased demand for workers, both skilled and unskilled that will naturally occur if the labor pool decreases which would put pressure on wages to increase, which is always opposed by business.
I wasn't talking to you dingleberry.....
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
Sorry! I couldn't let this go!
I can't understand why some politicians rage for a higher minimum wage with one side of their mouth, but then defend paying an illegal alien $3.50 an hr to work a 80 hour week?
If we grew poppies and produced Oklahoma Heroine, I'm sure we could make billions, fix the roads, fund schools, and build ball parks, but it's illegal!
Just like heroine, we have to break our addiction to cheap labor, and start paying workers what their worth. Why is this so hard for some people to swallow? Yes! it's going to cost more, and the withdraw is going to be difficult. But we are being viewed as an example for the whole country.
I guess I'm so sensitive on this subject because on Monday someone sent me a radio broadcast from NPR (from Jan or Feb I think), that talked about Oklahoma's tough new immigration reform bill. The broadcast started by painting a picture of Tulsa as a ghost town. The reporter said that half finished buildings were sitting wrapped in Tyvek with piles of bricks around them. Houses were left abandon with no one to live in them or build them. Businesses had packed up and moved to other states. They painted Tulsa as a deserted, dried up, hopeless town because of our immigration bill. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
They interviewed a nurse or doctor that said babies were left to die because their parents were afraid to go to the hospital for fear that they would be deported.
The more I listened, the madder I got! None of it was real. The entire story was ridiculous! But it is one version of the story that the rest of the world is hearing.
Do you think the law is enforceable? I don't. So its likely the underground system that has operated to business' advantage will become even more sophisticated because I assure you, the minimum wage and wages in general for the type of work they did, will not be raised to match the demand. Not in this state anyway. Even if it was we lack the skilled and willing workers.
The alcohol prohibition scenario mentioned above is a good example of what happens when you try to artificially and bluntly clamp off demand. Might as well legislate an end to gravity. Of course we needed to address the problem and manage it. This law addressed it alright but will likely direct the demand farther underground.
Any law is enforceable, only when there is the will to enforce. I know for a fact that Tulsa builders are requiring their workers to carry documentation of citizenship or work permit. I also know that they are distancing themselves from hiring contractors that may put them under liability. . . and yes it's more expensive.
But to imply that work has stopped, or productivity is down is simply not true! It just costs more. I've watched prices on commercial projects jump slightly, and residential a little less. But for NPR to imply that we have just shriveled up and died because we intend to enforce the law is a HUGE LIE!
The homebuilders that our residential department is designing houses for have found it more expensive to hire roofers, framers, and laborers, but nothing has stopped! There are a lot more young people who would otherwise be working at Wendy's on the job site now, and they are making more than they would at Wendy's (no offense to Wendy's, I love your burgers!)
You wanted more jobs and higher wages. It seems like we are taking steps to solve that problem by enforcing laws that make it illegal to promote illegal cheap labor.
When slavery was abolished, I'm sure that some plantation owners resisted, and enforcement was a problem. I'm sure that people argued that production would go down and industry would shrivel up. I'm sure they said "no one will want to work in the fields." I'm sure that for a while it became more expensive to buy a cotton shirt or a bag of potatoes. But it was the right thing to do!
In my mind, a business person hiring an illegal work force at half the wages with no benefits is despicable. It destroys everything that America stands for. It promotes the recognition of a class of people that YOU deem to have fewer rights than you, and therefore are worth less. When in reality, if they were to go through the proper channels and acquire the proper paperwork, you would be required to treat them with the same respect, rights, wages, and benefits as any other worker.
How can so many americans be fooled by politicians fighting for subjugation under the guise of equality?
The Terrill for Govenor xenophiles are having another wet dream all over this thread.....
quote:
Not all guys named Guido are...Italian either.[;)]
Agreed.
Many Hispanics have left town.
I hired a Mariachi band and got two gringos named Murray and Archie.
There's also the compounding effect of higher fuel prices and raw material costs, not just labor. A LOT of construction equipment runs on diesel fuel. Granted, it's non-road use which is cheaper than the $3.79 you see on the roadside, but it's still up higher than it was a year back.
Our vendors which work primarily with steel or cast iron have gone up about 10% on finished product cost in the last year, ones who work with copper, more like 20%. Add to that increased freight costs of about 15 to 25%.
I've also gotten word that steel prices are about to take another spike in the next month or two. High fuel equals higher costs to fire furnaces, coupled with supposed raw material shortages.
Now, here's the part where the government is still playing "blind man". A sting program to crack down on fake ID mills (not talking about the ones who make ID's for high schoolers to buy beer) would nip a lot of the illegal immigrant problem in the bud. It's pretty difficult for employers as it is now to verify documentation with the government and counterfeit cards and documents look spot-on with today's computer programs and output equipment.
Some people have this image of job foremen and HR staff turning a blind eye and not checking I.D.'s. That notion is largely incorrect, though I will agree there are likely some daily cash jobs that no one will check an ID, they just need a donkey for the day.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Many Hispanics have left town.
I hired a Mariachi band and got two gringos named Murray and Archie.
I love those guys! They do a great Hava-Nagela!
Gaspar, you would have us believe that prohibition was a problem of poor enforcement? Elliot Ness and the "revenuers" were just pretending? That marijuana outlaw usage is a problem of poor enforcement? About the only way either one would have worked is to deputize half the population and arrest the other half! Then use illegals to build new prisons for them.
I respect the building trades for doing something about the problem. That sounds like the management of a problem, not the hammer/anvil solution others desire. BTW, my father's paint contracting business was affected by illegals over 20years ago. That and a real estate collapse similar to this one forced him into semi-retirement, so I know the problem needs addressed. I hope manufacturing and other business communities follow suit. But its not just jobs. Its the ripple effect on the whole system. We have always tolerated leakage in the immigration system as a lubricant for the gears of the economy. The machine will suffer some shudders.
Another BTW- I wouldn't be too surprised by the reporting on NPR. They are no more or less prone to running poorly researched, misleading and outright untrue stories as O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Fox and co. They just do it with more haugtiness, less emotion, and better diction! They rely on the same process of journalism as the others. However they don't assault me with idiocy in general like the aforementioned.
I am still skeptical of the law being any more enforceable or successful than prohibition or the war on drugs. If it works as a PR tool, a sort of "bully stick" well then maybe it will have some success. After the way hispanics have been portrayed by many on this forum I will have less respect for them should they stay and share air with us.
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
If you think illegals are getting paid below minimum wage you need to wake up....They get as much as a legal worker with the same skill level....
You wake up.
Where did you get that I thought illegals were paid less than legal workers? I wouldn't know. I spoke about the increased demand for workers, both skilled and unskilled that will naturally occur if the labor pool decreases which would put pressure on wages to increase, which is always opposed by business.
I wasn't talking to you dingleberry.....
Who were you talking to dickbump....?
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Waterboy, way to completely avoid Gaspar's well-reasoned and thoughtful post.
And by the way, tell us more about this underground system of labor; because the way I see it, unless this illegal labor is occurring literally underground or otherwise out of the sight of the people, there is no place to hide. Plus, who wants to risk felony charges for merely assisting in this underground system.
Guarantee me that the state will actually PROSECUTE businesses that knowingly hire illegal aliens and put them IN THE SAME JAIL that they have reserved for illegals........ and not single out some nominal mexican restaurant.......
Yeah, right. Like THAT would get republican support...
you know what I think is amusing is the article implying that we should resort to illegal labor so we don't lose 1.8 bill in productivity.
i swear, the same people that feed illegal labor are the same ones who fed this sub prime lending mess.....the SCUMMY DEVELOPERS AND THEIR CONSTRUCTION CONTRACTOR CRONIES!
Don't they make illegal labor temporarily legal in California to pick the fruit and veggies you eat?
The Randy Terrible for governor campaign is coming to you for your contribution. Currently, it is not in the form of money.
Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?
I hate it when you make me agree with you FOTD.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?
I hate it when you make me agree with you FOTD.
Conan steps back, nods head in disgust...
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
Don't they make illegal labor temporarily legal in California to pick the fruit and veggies you eat?
The Randy Terrible for governor campaign is coming to you for your contribution. Currently, it is not in the form of money.
Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?
no, I think it is time to go find the Americans in the statement "these are jobs that Americans won't do" and put their asses to work.
If we REALLY have a labor shortage and we have able bodied Americans on welfare who are NOT working, we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.
But I have a sneaky suspicion the people that blurt out that "these are jobs americans won't do" are really just the scum who prefer to not pay decent wages and engage in other forms on employment abuse.
The construction cronies in this state got caught with their pants down, so now they are throwing out these bull**** dollar numbers to try and get their wage slaves back.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
[br we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.
Hello David Duke
JK, sure sounded like it though.
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
[br we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.
Hello David Duke
JK, sure sounded like it though.
do you want your produce picked by an American or an illegal?
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
no, I think it is time to go find the Americans in the statement "these are jobs that Americans won't do" and put their asses to work.
If we REALLY have a labor shortage and we have able bodied Americans on welfare who are NOT working, we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.
While I do not want to FORCE anyone to work, I think we seriously need to look at people who are sucking off our government programs (not people who NEED it, people who are sucking off of it) and reduce benefits to the point that it is advantageous to work. If you structure the system so a healthy person can sit at home with a roof, heat, and food and live perfectly comfortable... there is little incentive to work to achieve the same end.
Working your way up or going past entry level to get a better life is a long term goal. Too many people see in the short term that can do nothing and be about as good off. If the government offered to sustain my lifestyle with the understanding that I wouldn't get a raise but could sit on my butt all day... it would be a very tempting offer.
quote:
But I have a sneaky suspicion the people that blurt out that "these are jobs americans won't do" are really just the scum who prefer to not pay decent wages and engage in other forms on employment abuse.
It's not that simple. you can't just raise your wages on everything. You can only pay someone so much to pick oranges, or people don't buy oranges, and then the packers are out of business, so are the truckers, and the growers. Or steel workers... you can only pay a steel worker so much.
When the steel workers demanded higher wages in the 1970's, they ended up with half the number of steel workers (and a death knell for the dominance of the American steel industry). Same with much of the US manufacturing base, at a certain point the market passes on the labor and forgoes the product, has a machine do it, or goes elsewhere. It's not a bad thing, it is the market seeking the most efficient means of production. Which ultimately assures me the highest standard of living possible (if everything cost twice as much I could only consume half as much).
The fact is, as always, not as simple as we make it out to be. A better statement would be
"these are the jobs not enough Americans won't do at wages the market will bare." Demand for most products is elastic, the market will not pay a hammer man $20 an hour. Nor a McDonald's register jockey $15, nor a Walmart register associate $10. People would sooner go without new homes, cook at home, or shop online.
quote:
The construction cronies in this state got caught with their pants down, so now they are throwing out these bull**** dollar numbers to try and get their wage slaves back.
These numbers are from the Bankers, not the construction company. Please see my prior post and read the study before going off on it. The conclusion was not 1804 bad, it was simply that 1804 costs the economy money. Something the legislature surely knew going in but failed to quantify.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
It's not that simple. you can't just raise your wages on everything. You can only pay someone so much to pick oranges, or people don't buy oranges, and then the packers are out of business, so are the truckers, and the growers. Or steel workers... you can only pay a steel worker so much.
When the steel workers demanded higher wages in the 1970's, they ended up with half the number of steel workers (and a death knell for the dominance of the American steel industry). Same with much of the US manufacturing base, at a certain point the market passes on the labor and forgoes the product, has a machine do it, or goes elsewhere. It's not a bad thing, it is the market seeking the most efficient means of production. Which ultimately assures me the highest standard of living possible (if everything cost twice as much I could only consume half as much).
Not picking on you CF, your quote was a great jumping off place for my thoughts.
It's an interesting dichotomy. On the one hand, we want a solution for welfare, don't want jobs going overseas (or across the border), and don't wan't illegal aliens picking our cabbage.
On the other, no one wants to pay higher prices for goods to ensure jobs stay here and are manned by legal citizens.
Americans love a bargain and seem to biznitch even more about the means by which they get that bargain.
When quality between items is percieved to be equal or near it, the majority of consumers are generally going to gravitate to the lower price. If that weren't the case, sale ads in the paper wouldn't have a published price, now would they? Think of all the sale ads you see or hear during the week. American consumers are, to a great extent, price driven.
I know I don't give a whole lot of thought to who picked my produce or cut up the dead cow or pig I'm buying. Fact of the matter is, unless you grow or raise all your own produce and meats you have zero control over whether or not it was harvested, butchered or processed by legal U.S. citizens or not.
Here is something sort of along this vein. CEO of at&t sez that it is hard to find 'skilled' workers in Merca to do customer service, sooooo that is why he still has 5k workers in Bangladesh. (STORY) (//%22http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080327/tc_nm/att_workforce_dc%22)
What this idiot is saying is that third world workers are the only ones he can find to work in their slaveshop call centers? Not for those wages and under those conditions. And these are not highly skilled BS in Electrical Engineering jobs. These are jobs that require rudimentary typing skills and the ability to think.
As far as the bankers and their bogus study, they need to **** or produce names of business hurt by their illegal employment practices. Those companies should have to pay back taxes and every fee that law-abiding companies have to.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
These numbers are from the Bankers, not the construction company. Please see my prior post and read the study before going off on it. The conclusion was not 1804 bad, it was simply that 1804 costs the economy money. Something the legislature surely knew going in but failed to quantify.
well who do you think loans the construction cartels money to build homes no one needs?
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
[br we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.
Hello David Duke
JK, sure sounded like it though.
do you want your produce picked by an American or an illegal?
I don't think I've ever given two sh*ts either way.
edit - if it makes it to my table and I can afford it, I'm fine with whomever will do the job.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
no, I think it is time to go find the Americans in the statement "these are jobs that Americans won't do" and put their asses to work.
If we REALLY have a labor shortage and we have able bodied Americans on welfare who are NOT working, we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.
While I do not want to FORCE anyone to work, I think we seriously need to look at people who are sucking off our government programs (not people who NEED it, people who are sucking off of it) and reduce benefits to the point that it is advantageous to work. If you structure the system so a healthy person can sit at home with a roof, heat, and food and live perfectly comfortable... there is little incentive to work to achieve the same end.
Working your way up or going past entry level to get a better life is a long term goal. Too many people see in the short term that can do nothing and be about as good off. If the government offered to sustain my lifestyle with the understanding that I wouldn't get a raise but could sit on my butt all day... it would be a very tempting offer.
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But I have a sneaky suspicion the people that blurt out that "these are jobs americans won't do" are really just the scum who prefer to not pay decent wages and engage in other forms on employment abuse.
It's not that simple. you can't just raise your wages on everything. You can only pay someone so much to pick oranges, or people don't buy oranges, and then the packers are out of business, so are the truckers, and the growers. Or steel workers... you can only pay a steel worker so much.
When the steel workers demanded higher wages in the 1970's, they ended up with half the number of steel workers (and a death knell for the dominance of the American steel industry). Same with much of the US manufacturing base, at a certain point the market passes on the labor and forgoes the product, has a machine do it, or goes elsewhere. It's not a bad thing, it is the market seeking the most efficient means of production. Which ultimately assures me the highest standard of living possible (if everything cost twice as much I could only consume half as much).
The fact is, as always, not as simple as we make it out to be. A better statement would be "these are the jobs not enough Americans won't do at wages the market will bare." Demand for most products is elastic, the market will not pay a hammer man $20 an hour. Nor a McDonald's register jockey $15, nor a Walmart register associate $10. People would sooner go without new homes, cook at home, or shop online.
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The construction cronies in this state got caught with their pants down, so now they are throwing out these bull**** dollar numbers to try and get their wage slaves back.
These numbers are from the Bankers, not the construction company. Please see my prior post and read the study before going off on it. The conclusion was not 1804 bad, it was simply that 1804 costs the economy money. Something the legislature surely knew going in but failed to quantify.
In theory you're right and of course anyone going through business college is taught those fundamentals. But if you hang around long enough you find the few professors, with real life experience, that will share with you the fallacy of the process.
Supply and demand work fine as long as there isn't collusion and administered pricing. We have both. As you pointed out there is just a certain amount we will pay cashiers, even if there are very few with skills to operate the register. That is an end run around the economic law of s&d. Homeland closed up shop, changed their name and then rehired their cashiers at lower wages back in the 80's just to "stay competitive".
This occurs at all levels but CEO where suddenly, good executives are so hard to find that they must be paid hundreds of millions to run companies that practically run themselves. You see, wages can be raised, just not at certain wage levels. In Europe, Microsoft is a bully punished for their monopolistic practices that lead to such abominations as Vista operating systems. Here, we shrug our shoulders and acknowledge Gates as an altruistic genius. Go figure. Of course that's also why oranges cost more there but people don't mind like we do here. Why? Because they are part of the process of increasing wages that accompany increasing prices. We are not. Is inflation out of control in Europe? Well it hasn't made big news if it is. Yes they have slackers too but they long ago learned how to manage immigration.
Let me give you a real life example that I saw yesterday. A good employee of a medical lab is offered a better job with more responsibility at a supervisory level. When she took her current position the dept. was a shambles. She organized it, created harmony between fellow employees, followed the rules and made the area efficient. Five years later she gets her annual raise of around 3%. Barely covers yearly inflation. She always gets good reviews but no other recognition. The new job will require she work her skills once again, but...involves no pay raise. Times are tough you know. Meanwhile white collar execs did real well this year. Think she took the job? Think this is an aberration? No on both accounts.
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Originally posted by inteller
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Originally posted by FOTD
Don't they make illegal labor temporarily legal in California to pick the fruit and veggies you eat?
The Randy Terrible for governor campaign is coming to you for your contribution. Currently, it is not in the form of money.
Let's make it easier to make them legal and win back $1.8 billion dollars in economic value. It's about the velocity of dollars in our States economy. Or is it really about something else?
no, I think it is time to go find the Americans in the statement "these are jobs that Americans won't do" and put their asses to work.
If we REALLY have a labor shortage and we have able bodied Americans on welfare who are NOT working, we need to bust down the door to their ghetto abode, yank them out, and put them in fields.
But I have a sneaky suspicion the people that blurt out that "these are jobs americans won't do" are really just the scum who prefer to not pay decent wages and engage in other forms on employment abuse.
The construction cronies in this state got caught with their pants down, so now they are throwing out these bull**** dollar numbers to try and get their wage slaves back.
Exactly.
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Demand for most products is elastic, the market will not pay a hammer man $20 an hour.
That is only about 60 cents more than the hourly scale(not counting benefits) that Union Contractors pay Carpenters in Oklahoma and somehow they have managed to stay in business. You are full of s#*t.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7567768586332346713
Si....er, see!!!
Two things, er...my two cents I guess.
First, you have to be able to actually catch them... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J06U1q8uHlo
Like the law that says you can not swear in front of woman, it is worthless if you wont enforce it.(not saying they wont, just saying.)
Second, is anyone for first firing the Federal Government for getting EVERYONE (no matter what side of the isle of the issue you are on) involved. That would create over 4 million people without jobs. They could work the fields and such. Oh, and the elected officials can work in the dishonest underground world that I read about in a couple above posts.
[:D]
Anyone wonder why it takes 4 million people to spend 4 million dollars? I just don't get it. I long for the world our nations' founders dreamed of. A union of states, independent and free from a king. Unified and federalized in a partnership to promote and preserve our human rights. Life, Liberty, and Property (it was changed to pursuit of happiness because a few wouldn't sign it because they thought it would infer that you couldn't own slaves). Ironic after all these years we are still fighting about labor. Hmmm.
More evidence this movement is dictated by hate and intolerance:FAIR Founder's Racism Revealed || Southern Poverty Law Center
The Tanton Files: FAIR Founder's Racism Revealed
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/09/19/tanton-fair-founder-racism/#more-2719
"But John Tanton and his Federation for American Immigration Reform have repeatedly claimed that they are different, that FAIR and its founder are not linked to the irrational fears and hatreds of the past. Their critics, they say angrily, are simply tarring them with the brush of racism to unfairly denigrate their arguments.
As the Bentley Library files show, that is far from true."
And related! Obama effigy hung from tree at US Christian college
http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Obama_effigy_hung_from_tree_at_US_C_09242008.html
Who would Jesus lynch?