Hopefully we have some decent judges that will toss this frivolous lawsuit out too.
http://www.fox23.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=22506@video.fox23.com&navCatId=5
(edited post to add this)
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=66caa182-716a-479d-a3fb-77fe7ee6d6e4
quote:
(TULSA, Okla.) October 26 – There's new information tonight about who is suing the state over a controversial illegal immigration bill.
There are now seventeen parties suing the governor for signing House Bill 1804.
The plaintiffs now include leaders from two Hispanic churches in Tulsa, a restaurant chain owner, and the state and national chapters of a Latino clergy organization.
Leaders in the Hispanic community have been fighting House Bill 1804 since it was passed. It requires legal documentation for immigrants to live and work in the state.
Leaders in Tulsa's Hispanic community say the law has already forced illegal immigrants to leave Tulsa. In the lawsuit they say the bill essentially evicts illegals. They worry businesses will close and more families will have to leave.
A judge has set a preliminary hearing for the lawsuit on October 31. The judge can then decide whether to grant a preliminary injunction that would temporarily prevent the law from going into effect on November 1.
yeah, I love their claims this time. "well these people were evicted because of this law, so they have suffered harm"
Well no **** sherlock, if they are ILLEGAL, then the landlord is just doing what the law will require.
"Leaders in Tulsa's Hispanic community say the law has already forced illegal immigrants to leave Tulsa. In the lawsuit they say the bill essentially evicts illegals."
Um, yeah. That was pretty much the idea. I wonder if they are going to keep spouting their "ethnic cleansing" crap. [xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
yeah, I love their claims this time. "well these people were evicted because of this law, so they have suffered harm"
Well no **** sherlock, if they are ILLEGAL, then the landlord is just doing what the law will require.
Perhaps speeders,drug dealers,murderers and other people who break the law can claim they suffered harm too because of laws on the books.
Just a few observations and then you all can make your hateful comments (which just proves my point[:(]):
There will be multiple lawsuits filed against HB 1804.
Althought I doubt if Orta and his crowd will be successful. Other groups, with a little more sophistication, will challenge this law.
It probably will be overturned, just like every other one of these laws has been through out the country.
The major players, the big businessmen (not just the Hispanic or small time businesspeople), the MAJOR business people, who make tons of money from these illegals, have not yet entered the fray. Once they do, the political pressure against the anti immigrant stance will intensify. So far these people have not made their voices heard, but they will.
These illegals are here because they do jobs Americans do not want to do. The argument that they depress wages is a cop out. The have come because there are openings in the job market. Our economy is going to suffer. They contribute more than use (tax dollars, whether through fake SSNs or just sales taxes vs. services)>
Finally, we Americans, are understandably upset about what is a real problem, people just coming in from a foreign country without any kind of processing. But do we need to sound as HATEFUL as we do? Some you guys say to people you disagree with "Leave with the aliens!" Aside from sounding really really stupid, who are you to tell another American to leave the country?
And what about the US Citizen kids? Don't they have rights? I mean forget about the parents or their crimes, what about the US Citizen children?
Just like on the comments on the Tulsa World website everytime there is a story. People sound like ignorant red neck asses. This problem needs to be solved in humane way using common sense, not hate filled thetoric. (That is true for nutbags like Rivera and Orta too).
As it is, we sound like backwards donkey junior klansmen....
Mutt, you are behind the curve on this discussion, I recommend you go back and read over every discussion there's been on this over the last year. You aren't going to gain a sympathetic ear as long as you refer to others as rednecks and Jr. Klansmen. That's Orta-style rhetoric.
I seriously doubt you are going to see lawsuits from employers, landlords and the like.
U.S. citizen children? You mean the anchor babies? [B)]
I just have the facts to speak for me... That.. and History.
History will tell you that this and other movements like this are temporary..
For those that believe they are any thing other than that...
Vaya con Dios...!
Read... If you can find the time within your pursuit of "Utopia"... This article regarding the same topic some 50+ years ago.
George W. Bush isn't the first Republican president to face a full-blown immigration crisis on the US-Mexican border.
Fifty-three years ago, when newly elected Dwight Eisenhower moved into the White House, America's southern frontier was as porous as a spaghetti sieve. As many as 3 million illegal migrants had walked and waded northward over a period of several years for jobs in California, Arizona, Texas, and points beyond.
President Eisenhower cut off this illegal traffic. He did it quickly and decisively with only 1,075 United States Border Patrol agents - less than one-tenth of today's force. The operation is still highly praised among veterans of the Border Patrol.
Although there is little to no record of this operation in Ike's official papers, one piece of historic evidence indicates how he felt. In 1951, Ike wrote a letter to Sen. William Fulbright (D) of Arkansas. The senator had just proposed that a special commission be created by Congress to examine unethical conduct by government officials who accepted gifts and favors in exchange for special treatment of private individuals.
General Eisenhower, who was gearing up for his run for the presidency, said "Amen" to Senator Fulbright's proposal. He then quoted a report in The New York Times, highlighting one paragraph that said: "The rise in illegal border-crossing by Mexican 'wetbacks' to a current rate of more than 1,000,000 cases a year has been accompanied by a curious relaxation in ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government."
{snip}
Although an on-and-off guest-worker program for Mexicans was operating at the time, farmers and ranchers in the Southwest had become dependent on an additional low-cost, docile, illegal labor force of up to 3 million, mostly Mexican, laborers.
According to the Handbook of Texas Online, published by the University of Texas at Austin and the Texas State Historical Association, this illegal workforce had a severe impact on the wages of ordinary working Americans. The Handbook Online reports that a study by the President's Commission on Migratory Labor in Texas in 1950 found that cotton growers in the Rio Grande Valley, where most illegal aliens in Texas worked, paid wages that were "approximately half" the farm wages paid elsewhere in the state.
Profits from illegal labor led to the kind of corruption that apparently worried Eisenhower. Joseph White, a retired 21-year veteran of the Border Patrol, says that in the early 1950s, some senior US officials overseeing immigration enforcement "had friends among the ranchers," and agents "did not dare" arrest their illegal workers.
Walt Edwards, who joined the Border Patrol in 1951, tells a similar story. He says: "When we caught illegal aliens on farms and ranches, the farmer or rancher would often call and complain [to officials in El Paso]. And depending on how politically connected they were, there would be political intervention. That is how we got into this mess we are in now."
{snip}
During the 1950s, however, this "Good Old Boy" system changed under Eisenhower - if only for about 10 years.
In 1954, Ike appointed retired Gen. Joseph "Jumpin' Joe" Swing, a former West Point classmate and veteran of the 101st Airborne, as the new INS commissioner.
Influential politicians, including Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson (D) of Texas and Sen. Pat McCarran (D) of Nevada, favored open borders, and were dead set against strong border enforcement, Brownell said. But General Swing's close connections to the president shielded him - and the Border Patrol - from meddling by powerful political and corporate interests.
One of Swing's first decisive acts was to transfer certain entrenched immigration officials out of the border area to other regions of the country where their political connections with people such as Senator Johnson would have no effect.
Then on June 17, 1954, what was called "Operation Wetback" began. Because political resistance was lower in California and Arizona, the roundup of aliens began there. Some 750 agents swept northward through agricultural areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Another 488,000, fearing arrest, had fled the country.
By mid-July, the crackdown extended northward into Utah, Nevada, and Idaho, and eastward to Texas.
By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and an estimated 500,000 to 700,000 illegals had left the Lone Star State voluntarily.
Unlike today, Mexicans caught in the roundup were not simply released at the border, where they could easily reenter the US. To discourage their return, Swing arranged for buses and trains to take many aliens deep within Mexico before being set free.
Tens of thousands more were put aboard two hired ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried the aliens from Port Isabel, Texas, to Vera Cruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles south.
The sea voyage was "a rough trip, and they did not like it," says Don Coppock, who worked his way up from Border Patrolman in 1941 to eventually head the Border Patrol from 1960 to 1973.
{snip}
One day in 1954, Border Patrol agent Walt Edwards picked up a newspaper in Big Spring, Texas, and saw some startling news. The government was launching an all-out drive to oust illegal aliens from the United States.
The orders came straight from the top, where the new president, Dwight Eisenhower, had put a former West Point classmate, Gen. Joseph Swing, in charge of immigration enforcement.
General Swing's fast-moving campaign soon secured America's borders - an accomplishment no other president has since equaled. Illegal migration had dropped 95 percent by the late 1950s.
{snip}
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Mutt, you are behind the curve on this discussion, I recommend you go back and read over every discussion there's been on this over the last year. You aren't going to gain a sympathetic ear as long as you refer to others as rednecks and Jr. Klansmen. That's Orta-style rhetoric.
I seriously doubt you are going to see lawsuits from employers, landlords and the like.
U.S. citizen children? You mean the anchor babies? [B)]
No, conan. the bigots and racists and xenophobes of this state who passed this law... those are the ones behind the curve on this one... and the people at the DMV who are gonna treat anybody with a spanish accent like crap... shameful.
Pass a guest worker law and be done with it... please.
Stop being hypocrits.
MUTT--
As it is, we sound like backwards donkey junior klansmen....Ditto.
They are paying taxes through fake SSN's?
Wow, that would be dumb. Also considering many of these work as contract labor on a W-9 instead of having witholding taken through a W-4, they contribute nothing. Also explains the stacks of unopened W-9's I've seen before.
2 points:
1) If you are against HB1804 you are not necessarily "pro-illegals." Aspects of this legislation are draconian and over bearing even on charities. What's more, the state has done a poor job explaining the legislation to the offended (Hispanic) population. In its enforcement it probably will not be a big deal, but the handling of the PR has been horrible.
2) The previous lawsuit was not thrown out as frivolous. No ruling was made on the merits. The issue was simply not ripe for a challenge as the filing parties failed to prove injury and thus had no standing.
said it before... will keep saying it: Until we fix our underlying immigration system (and policy) a mere law enforcement approach is a band aide. Probably too expensive to be worth the trouble. Which admittedly sucks, but I'm guessing this law changes nothing in the long run.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
No, conan. the bigots and racists and xenophobes of this state who passed this law... those are the ones behind the curve on this one... and the people at the DMV who are gonna treat anybody with a spanish accent like crap... shameful.
Pass a guest worker law and be done with it... please.
Stop being hypocrits.
MUTT-- As it is, we sound like backwards donkey junior klansmen....
Ditto.
So wanting our immigration laws enforced makes one a bigot,xenophobe or hispaniphobe?I guess all our other laws makes us prejudice to other groups of people who break the law as well.
It is the people with common sense that passed HB1804. Because common sense dictated that if the feds are not going to do anything about it except for a few token raids every time they want to pass a amnesty like bill. Then common sense says the states should step to do their part.
Only a retard spews the racist, xenophobe, hispani-phobia and anti-immigrant lies. Because no one believes the lies of racism,xenophobia,hispani-phobia and anti-immigration spewed by pro-illegals not even the pro-illegals themselves who spew the lies of racism.The only reason your ilk spew those lies is to intimidate people into silence because pro-illegals do not have a leg to stand on in this issue.So you have to make up lies in order to try to win.
IF any one is racist it is the pro-illegals who lump all immigrants regardless if they are legal or illegal and all Hispanics regardless if they were born here,legally here or illegally here into the same boat.The only other people to lump all immigrants and all Hispanics in the same boat as illegals are the racist.Do you honestly think those people appreciate being lumped into the same group as people who came here and stay illegally?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
said it before... will keep saying it: Until we fix our underlying immigration system (and policy) a mere law enforcement approach is a band aide. Probably too expensive to be worth the trouble. Which admittedly sucks, but I'm guessing this law changes nothing in the long run.
The problem with illegal immigration is the fact the laws are not being enforced.If the law was being enforced we would not be having this discussion right now.A mere law enforcement is what is needed.If illegals realize that only immigrants Oklahoma is friendly to is legal immigrants then illegals will leave.If Oklahoma's law is successful then other states will enact similar laws.When those laws are enacted in other states the few sanctuary states will clime aboard too.
Talk about spewing -- I think I just got hit in the eye with your spittle.
This thing is not anywhere near over. It'll be challenged on various grounds until 1) the US Supreme Court rules on it, 2) all Hispanics move away including American citizens, OR 3) the law is repealed or becomes an unenforceable relic.
The law was built on an unstable footing to begin with. It's potentially contradictory to other laws, which it can not currently supersede, on multiple grounds.
This law, if it's enforced, will even be challenged on Civil Rights grounds as American citizens are on the receiving end of discriminatory practices. And that's the least of the law's problems.
Jamesrage your name fits you are sure full of rage. And it is exacty that rage that makes me use terms like redneck and Jr. klansmen.
You don't need to be so damned HATEFUL. That is exactly what I am talking about. There is no need to be an a**hole.
And Conan, you can call them anchor babies, but they still are Citizens, and until Congress changes that, they are still just as American as you or me or your kid.
It's like all reason goes out the door on this issue.
Cannon fodder is right, just because a person disagrees with this law doesn't make them pro-illegal.
Sorry I don't get red eyed full of RAGE when I think about it. I'd rather see an orderly, humane solution, that takes into account the economic implications, while still prorecting our national security and the rights of law abiding citizens.
KingMutt, thank you for fighting the good fight. Many Oklahomans are at the beginning of a learning curve on this issue. Hopefully as they gain information they will gain some balance.
It wasn't that long ago that very similar remarks were being made about Irish immigrants. Of course Tulsa's largest ethnic group is Irish, so you can see that the Irish prevailed despite the racism they faced.
I really didn't care about this bill until I heard on the news that it was "ethnic cleansing." After that statement I want every illegal to be thrown out of this state. If you are going to compare the cessation of benefits to someone who can't be bothered to immigrate legally to genocide, then your values are just a little too far from reality.
As for the statement of "no one will do those jobs" well, the jobs will get done, and we may have to pay more, but don't think that no one will build houses or mow lawns. (Yes, I realize that there are many more things that illegals work on.) To wrap yourselves in the "Americans won't" blanket and believe that the economy will come to a standstill is about as stupid as comparing genocide to HB 1804.
As far as their children, I think we should allow them to leave their children. Mutt is right in that they are citizens. They can be wards of the state until they are 18, at which time they will be adults and can go visit their parents back in Mexico. Regardless of children, the parents have NO rights to stay here.
We have a system in place to become legal. Just because you don't want to use it is not my problem. Just because you think the law sucks, again, not my problem. I hate speed limits, not your problem... But the law is the law... And I am not in favor of either breaking it, or changing it "retroactively."
If they had passed a law saying "All people of Hispanic descent are to be deported immediately," that would fit the definition of Ethnic Cleaning for sure. It's not all about murder, Ethnic Cleansing by definition is the "removal of ethnic groups", regardless of means.
As is, the law forces people, the bulk of which are the same ethnicity, to be deprived of property and to be deported. Outside of a few details, it's fairly close to the concept of Ethnic Cleansing. Close enough that you'll keep hearing the term. It's not going away.
I've only read summaries of the law, but haven't seen anything offensive so far.
What aspects are offensive? Seems to me that it provides for deportation of those who are here illegally and the only real issue is whether there are conflicts with regards to Federal vs. State responsibility.
ethic cleansing
the Klan
"ignorant red neck asses"
bigots and racists and xenophobes
Give me a break. This does nothing to solve problems and does everything to make the situation worse. I'm hard pressed to conjure a more hateful ensemble of ideas. It's an old, dirty, political trick to associate your opponents' views with something universally recognized as evil. See the "VOTE YES" campaign. "It's for the children and the future. Do you like those ideas or are you a terrible monster? THIS IS THE ONLY WAY."
It's also a great disservice to generations of immigrants that did their utmost to enter the country lawfully and begin the process of melting into the culture.
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
ethic cleansing
the Klan
"ignorant red neck asses"
bigots and racists and xenophobes
You're still going to hear those terms. If a person has a fixation on illegals, which happen to be primarily Hispanic, very few will believe that the fixation is purely of a legal nature. Many of the supporters are the same ones that want to see Islam banned from public discourse, and funding cut to services primarily used by minorities. None of this is going away, it's a hard battle for sure, but it's up to you to define yourself, or not.
I apologize to everyone and anyone if I have offended them.
What I meant to say, is that the hateful talk sounds like the stereotypes of "rednecks" etc.
It's kinda like you see a certain kind of person on Springer, they fit the bill of what you expect. The same for the hateful diatribes, you figure these folks "fit the bill."
And again, my main problem is with those anti-illegals who say "Get out" to Americans who are sympathetic to the aliens, and have no compassion for the US Citizen children. To me these people are total hypocrites and most be motivated by something dark and ugly.
Otherwise, I agree illegal immigration is a problem. And in case you did not catch it the first time, I am NO FAN of Orta and Company.
MichaelC seems to be on point.
It's very unfortunate to think that those terms will continue to be used. The cry on the anti-bill side is against stereotyping but condoning the use of divisive, stereotype language as weapons against their opponents? It's impossible to take that kind of "debate" seriously. I'd still really like to hear some sober discussion about the issue, exactly why it makes people uncomfortable as well as suggested alternatives.
My prediction is that like just about every immigration law passed so far in this country that enforcement will be lacking, and life will go on as normal. After awhile illegal immigrants will figure out we were just kidding and will return quietly.
While the Latin community in Tulsa is relatively new, the U.S. has a long history of using migrant labor from south of the border. We have depended on that migrant labor for over 100 years now. Our Latin friends and neighbors are well known to people who live in Border States. Add to that the deep cultural ties between the U.S. and its Latin neighbors, and the rapid assimilation of Latinos into our families and you see a rich association that will stretch far into the future.
Local anti-immigrants will be a footnote in a chapter on Oklahoma's racist past. You know, the 1921 riot, Jim Crow, HB 1804. Mark my word.
Friends of mine can testify that before I returned to Tulsa, I spent time researching Tulsa's Latin community. It was learning that Tulsa had a Latin community that was the deciding factor in my returning to Tulsa.
Of course, I am deeply ashamed of the way Oklahoma has carried on in regards to immigration. And I've backed that up with financial support for the legal actions challenging HB1804. I urge other people of conscience to actively resist HB 1804 and its supporters.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
It is the people with common sense that passed HB1804. Because common sense dictated that if the feds are not going to do anything about it except for a few token raids every time they want to pass a amnesty like bill. Then common sense says the states should step to do their part.
Here is a link to the new law (//%22http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08HB/HB1804_int.rtf%22) in case anyone would like to read the text.
I became very concerned with Parts A and B of Section 3:
quote:
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, move, or attempt to transport within the United States any alien knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that the alien has come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law, in furtherance of the illegal presence of the alien in the United States.
C. Any person violating the provisions of subsections A or B of this section shall, upon conviction, be guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in the custody of the Department of Corrections for not less than one (1) year, or by a fine of not less than One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such fine and imprisonment.
Apparently, I am of the ilk of felons, according to this law.
Before confessing my "crime", I'll back up a bit...
I do a lot of volunteer work in the area where I live (an area with a large Hispanic population), including volunteering for my neighborhood organization and serving on the board of a non-profit foundation that provides social services in this part of town. I have recently written and received a grant to provide English classes to parents whose children go to the elementary school in our neighborhood. (The grant money is coming from a private family foundation, lest anyone worry that public dollars are being used to teach my neighbors English.)
The English classes are held at a local church where we can provide childcare during the classes. Since most of the parents do not have cars, I will occasionally give one or two of them a ride from the elementary school to the church. I've even been known to pick up a whole carload of parents in the church van on a couple of occasions.
By my reading of Section 3, Part A, my actions could be worthy of a felony charge come this Thursday.
Jamesrage, the vague wording of HB 1804 makes me -- an ordinary American citizen associating with her neighbors, doing private volunteer work in the community -- feel as though I could be charged with a felony for my work. I do not agree that it is "people with common sense" that passed the legislation.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
They are paying taxes through fake SSN's?
Wow, that would be dumb. Also considering many of these work as contract labor on a W-9 instead of having witholding taken through a W-4, they contribute nothing. Also explains the stacks of unopened W-9's I've seen before.
Bingo. Legal workers are robbing our treasuries through 1099 abuse/worker misclassification, too. We need 1099 reform in Oklahoma.
quote:
Originally posted by KingMutt
It's kinda like you see a certain kind of person on Springer, they fit the bill of what you expect. The same for the hateful diatribes, you figure these folks "fit the bill."
Well, there goes whatever credibility you had.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by KingMutt
It's kinda like you see a certain kind of person on Springer, they fit the bill of what you expect. The same for the hateful diatribes, you figure these folks "fit the bill."
Well, there goes whatever credibility you had.
The fact he is screaming racist, xenophobe, Jr klansman and hate munger already shows his lack of credibility.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by KingMutt
It's kinda like you see a certain kind of person on Springer, they fit the bill of what you expect. The same for the hateful diatribes, you figure these folks "fit the bill."
Well, there goes whatever credibility you had.
The fact he is screaming racist, xenophobe, Jr klansman and hate munger already shows his lack of credibility.
agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by wenwilwa
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
It is the people with common sense that passed HB1804. Because common sense dictated that if the feds are not going to do anything about it except for a few token raids every time they want to pass a amnesty like bill. Then common sense says the states should step to do their part.
Here is a link to the new law (//%22http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08HB/HB1804_int.rtf%22) in case anyone would like to read the text.
I became very concerned with Parts A and B of Section 3:
quote:
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, move, or attempt to transport within the United States any alien knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that the alien has come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law, in furtherance of the illegal presence of the alien in the United States.
C. Any person violating the provisions of subsections A or B of this section shall, upon conviction, be guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in the custody of the Department of Corrections for not less than one (1) year, or by a fine of not less than One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such fine and imprisonment.
Apparently, I am of the ilk of felons, according to this law.
Before confessing my "crime", I'll back up a bit...
I do a lot of volunteer work in the area where I live (an area with a large Hispanic population), including volunteering for my neighborhood organization and serving on the board of a non-profit foundation that provides social services in this part of town. I have recently written and received a grant to provide English classes to parents whose children go to the elementary school in our neighborhood. (The grant money is coming from a private family foundation, lest anyone worry that public dollars are being used to teach my neighbors English.)
The English classes are held at a local church where we can provide childcare during the classes. Since most of the parents do not have cars, I will occasionally give one or two of them a ride from the elementary school to the church. I've even been known to pick up a whole carload of parents in the church van on a couple of occasions.
By my reading of Section 3, Part A, my actions could be worthy of a felony charge come this Thursday.
Jamesrage, the vague wording of HB 1804 makes me -- an ordinary American citizen associating with her neighbors, doing private volunteer work in the community -- feel as though I could be charged with a felony for my work. I do not agree that it is "people with common sense" that passed the legislation.
Nope, Stanley Glanz and others have said people like you won't be persecuted, nor prosecuted. The issue had come up about transporting illegal aliens to church or for appointments with social services. According to Glanz, anyhow, they are going to get into workplace inforcement which is the area that ICE and INS are already supposed to be, but are under-manned for the task.
Apparently the latest attempt to undermine the will of the Oklahoma people also failed:
http://kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=138916
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Apparently the latest attempt to undermine the will of the Oklahoma people also failed:
http://kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=138916
yep, illegals from all origins better pack their bags and head back to where they came from.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Apparently the latest attempt to undermine the will of the Oklahoma people also failed:
http://kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=138916
Two fraudulent lawsuits down more to go
(http://www.debatepolitics.com/images/smilies/New_Smilies/2party.gif)(http://www.debatepolitics.com/images/smilies/New_Smilies/ind.gif)
A small victory in the fight against illegal immigration but if it survives other fraudulent lawsuits it will be a huge victory against illegal immigration.
Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.
Let's say I break into your house.
Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.
But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the things you don't
like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)
According to the protesters:
You are required to let me stay in your house
You are required to add me to your family's insurance plan
You are required to Educate my kids
You are required to provide other benefits to me & to my family (my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out,
I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.
It's only fair, after all, because you have
a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house. And oh yeah, I get a free education, where you have to pay your own way through college.
And what a deal it is for me!!!
I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.
Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.And don't forget to make sure your forms are in MY language - I need to understand them...
Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in America!
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.
Let's say I break into your house.
Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.
But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the things you don't
like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)
According to the protesters:
You are required to let me stay in your house
You are required to add me to your family's insurance plan
You are required to Educate my kids
You are required to provide other benefits to me & to my family (my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out,
I will call my friends who will picket your
house carrying signs that proclaim my
RIGHT to be there.
It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house. And oh yeah, I get a free education, where you have to pay your own way through college.
And what a deal it is for me!!!
I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.
Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.And don't forget to make sure your forms are in MY language - I need to understand them...
Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in America!
Well said!
Did you guys see this:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071101_1__AUSci58616
It's already happening. Suits to follow I'm sure.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Did you guys see this:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071101_1__AUSci58616
It's already happening. Suits to follow I'm sure.
That individual chose to violate the law then that individual should accept full responsibility for breaking the law.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Did you guys see this:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071101_1__AUSci58616
It's already happening. Suits to follow I'm sure.
That individual chose to violate the law then that individual should accept full responsibility for breaking the law.
The law itself is getting ready to face it's first real test. And even if it passes that test, it ain't anywhere close to over.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Did you guys see this:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071101_1__AUSci58616
It's already happening. Suits to follow I'm sure.
That individual chose to violate the law then that individual should accept full responsibility for breaking the law.
The law itself is getting ready to face it's first real test. And even if it passes that test, it ain't anywhere close to over.
You like anarchy huh michael? You say that regardless of what the law says it's what people know deep down is what really matters, and in your opinion, that means it's a racist law aimed at Hispanics. How so, the law says "illegal aliens" and encompasses every one that is here illegally.
You guys are impossible to argue with rationally because you IGNORE everything about this and put your own spin on it.
You want slaves here to do things for you right? How about this. I say that if the illegals are allowed to stay they be given the exact same wage as anyone else if they are qualified.
Be honest Michael C. You just want slaves and cheap labor, you care nothing about these people.
If the majority of drunk drivers are black, or Chinese, or Russian and we passed drunk driving laws that would be a racist and hateful law in your opinion because the majority of the people who would feel the impact of that law would be those drunk drivers of x race.
Your arguments hold no water in the court of public opinion. However, I do realize that this will ultimately be shopped around to a liberal judge until it is overturned. That's the way you guys work. Twist, spin, juke your way around until you get your racist and corrupt judges to do your bidding for ya. Pathetic. You guys had better wake up because one day this country will be a shadow of its former self (it already is in many respects). Go on and on and spout your racism and hate crap because you have no credibility whatsoever after the kind of rhetoric you spew on these boards.
[:D]
Keep em' coming, I can take it.
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.
Let's say I break into your house.
Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.
But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I've done all the things you don't
like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)
According to the protesters:
You are required to let me stay in your house
You are required to add me to your family's insurance plan
You are required to Educate my kids
You are required to provide other benefits to me & to my family (my husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out,
I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.
It's only fair, after all, because you have
a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house. And oh yeah, I get a free education, where you have to pay your own way through college.
And what a deal it is for me!!!
I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.
Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.And don't forget to make sure your forms are in MY language - I need to understand them...
Why can't people see how ridiculous this is?! Only in America!
Most of this fits - except the "...DEMAND that you learn MY language..." part. I've never heard of that. I've never heard an alien, legal or illegal, demand that we speak their language. Could you fill me in?
Anyone who is "Pro-Illegal" is "Pro--Lawbreaker". We need to deport every illegal alien that is found out. A cop stops a car with a busted tail light & finds out the driver is illegal, goodbye, he's gone. Local cops can enforce other federal laws, why can't they also be allowed to enforce immigration laws? That's how you get rid of the 20 million illegals who don't belong here, you don't give them amnesty. Each illegal alien is costing taxpayers $22,000 a year the cost of a new Ford Mustang car. The illegals also drive down our wages and take jobs that belong to legal residents. They take jobs that our teenagers use-to do.. Illegal aliens are a slap in the face to everyone who came here the LEGAL way. We have to have secure borders we won't be a secure nation as long as we have open borders. This is not rocket science. Seal the border and deport every illegal that is found out NO Amnesty, No guest Workers.Enforce the law.
sauerkraut wrote:
Local cops can enforce other federal laws, why can't they also be allowed to enforce immigration laws?
<end clip>
Because it's not their job. It's INS' job. Plain and simple.
The constitutionality of HB 1804 will stand. If this is unconstitutional, then it should have been unconstitutional for Timothy Mcveigh to be tried under state and federal law in state and federal courts. States routinely make laws based on federal law and the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996(IIRIRA) specifically allows it in regards to illegal immigration. These are frivolous lawsuits, case closed.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
sauerkraut wrote:
Local cops can enforce other federal laws, why can't they also be allowed to enforce immigration laws?
<end clip>
Because it's not their job. It's INS' job. Plain and simple.
Not only are you a constitutional law scholar, you also know the job descriptions of law enforcement officers. Some might think you suffer from "know-it-allism" I say your brilliant. Incidentally, does the INS even exist anymore?
In any case, TPD or the Sheriff's department, or any other local law enforcement officers will not be enforcing federal law. These officers will be enforcing the laws of Oklahoma, which Oklahoma is absolutely entitled to pass. In this case, Oklahoma passed a law to lessen the burden on its hardworking taxpayers who are footing the bill for government, educational, and medical services illegals use.
Guido wrote:
Incidentally, does the INS even exist anymore?
<end clip>
Yes.
This is another edition of simple answers to stupid questions.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Guido wrote:
Incidentally, does the INS even exist anymore?
<end clip>
Yes.
This is another edition of simple answers to stupid questions.
I guess that was a stupid question. You see, I thought INS was replaced by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services. I also thought it happened more than four years ago.
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
Same agency, different name.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Same agency, different name.
Stupid answer to simple question, then?
Yes. [:P]
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the constitutionality of this law could be challenged because it abridges citizens' freedom of association.
Some people have tried to calm my fears of being persecuted or prosecuted for my association with immigrants by saying that the local police have reassured the public that they don't plan to prosecute apartment owners, churches or ordinary citizens (like myself) for associating with immigrants and subsequently violating the "transporting" or "sheltering" pieces of HB 1804. Their reassurances are beside the point.
If this law could be interpreted to mean that I am a felon because I give an ESL student a ride to English classes without first verifying their status as a legal visitor to the States, I take issue with that. I've never considered myself "libertarian" in nature, but I feel quite offended that the government would interfere with my actions as a private citizen doing privately funded volunteer work to better my community by telling me whom I can and cannot transport in my car.
quote:
Originally posted by wenwilwa
I�m not a lawyer, but I believe the constitutionality of this law could be challenged because it abridges citizens� freedom of association.
Some people have tried to calm my fears of being persecuted or prosecuted for my association with immigrants by saying that the local police have reassured the public that they don�t plan to prosecute apartment owners, churches or ordinary citizens (like myself) for associating with immigrants and subsequently violating the �transporting� or �sheltering� pieces of HB 1804. Their reassurances are beside the point.
If this law could be interpreted to mean that I am a felon because I give an ESL student a ride to English classes without first verifying their status as a legal visitor to the States, I take issue with that. I�ve never considered myself �libertarian� in nature, but I feel quite offended that the government would interfere with my actions as a private citizen doing privately funded volunteer work to better my community by telling me whom I can and cannot transport in my car.
Read the law, humanitarian transport is protected.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by wenwilwa
I�m not a lawyer, but I believe the constitutionality of this law could be challenged because it abridges citizens� freedom of association.
Some people have tried to calm my fears of being persecuted or prosecuted for my association with immigrants by saying that the local police have reassured the public that they don�t plan to prosecute apartment owners, churches or ordinary citizens (like myself) for associating with immigrants and subsequently violating the �transporting� or �sheltering� pieces of HB 1804. Their reassurances are beside the point.
If this law could be interpreted to mean that I am a felon because I give an ESL student a ride to English classes without first verifying their status as a legal visitor to the States, I take issue with that. I�ve never considered myself �libertarian� in nature, but I feel quite offended that the government would interfere with my actions as a private citizen doing privately funded volunteer work to better my community by telling me whom I can and cannot transport in my car.
Read the law, humanitarian transport is protected.
Maybe you see something in the law that I'm missing. The only reference to humanitarian exceptions is written under the section indicating situations where valid ID shall not be required, not under the section regarding transportation. Link (//%22http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:duM-OBEqwo8J:webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08bills/HB/HB1804_int.rtf+hb+1804&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us%22)
Let's say for the sake of argument that transportation to an ESL class would fall under humanitarian efforts (which I don't think it would). What if I decide to take a couple of my new immigrant friends to see a movie afterward? I'm pretty sure a judge could easily interpret this simple act as a felony according to the wording of HB 1804.
Tell me, does this not conflict with freedom of association in the first amendment?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
sauerkraut wrote:
Local cops can enforce other federal laws, why can't they also be allowed to enforce immigration laws?
<end clip>
Because it's not their job. It's INS' job. Plain and simple.
That can be changed if we really wanted to get serious about illegal aliens. Local cops can enforce other federal laws- so why is immigration off limets? It's time to change that. I'd favor having local cops enforce immigration laws.
As far as I am concerned, illegal residents regardless of their nationality have made their own bed, so they can just lie in it, so to speak. I welcome 1804 and its effects on Tulsa population. It's about time, I say.