This could be a close vote and it could take hours to get every precinct in the election board and officially counted. There have been some precinct problems and funny things happen on election days.
On the other hand. there will always be pressure on the media to compete with each other to be the first to call it.
In my experience, KRMG is the first to call most of the time and channel six has the fastest vote totals.
Will we know by 8pm? 9pm? 10pm? Later?
When we will know the results tonight and who will tell us first?
You can check the vote totals as they come in on the Channel 6 website.
http://www.kotv.com/election/october-2007/
Kotv & Kjrh both have vote totals. KOTV's keep switching back between the two sides. Wish they would show which precints are reporting. But good job in reporting for both those websites.
What a see-saw. I predict they'll call it tomorrow.
at 50 percent of precincts reporting its
32,694 yes to 32,438 no
no solid lead yet.
Maybe. But it really makes a difference which precincts are reporting. If we are waiting on MapleRidge & Riverview, the yes's have it; if we are waiting for Broken Arrow, I'd bet on the no's.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
You can check the vote totals as they come in on the Channel 6 website.
http://www.kotv.com/election/october-2007/
Damn, it's so close. I wish they showed which precincts have reported so that I can estimate the result.
Yea they need one of those "red" "green" maps like during the presidential election lol.
I was gonna call it if any side got about 2000 votes over the other, but geeze that may not happen.
KOTV, 57% reporting
Yes Votes: 38372
No Votes: 38339
Unbelievable.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
KOTV, 57% reporting
Yes Votes: 38372
No Votes: 38339
Unbelievable.
I think North Tulsa is reporting right in now, as the No votes are shooting up while Yes is staying stagnant.
this just shows how divisive even "non-partisan" issues have got. unfortunately you can buy a lot of votes with 1.3 million votes.
The no side doesn't stand a chance.
Guess I'll have to start shopping Amazon.com more.
I dont know, the no tax people seem to be doing quite well. Its been closer to me calling it for the no than for the yes.
I am calling it. 8:21, the nos have it.
I'd say maybe is winning.
KJRH says 55% reporting with 51% yes and 49% no
KTUL say that 54% of the voters said no. No other details.
FOX23 has 24% reporting with 52% No and 48% Yes
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I'd say maybe is winning.
KJRH says 55% reporting with 51% yes and 49% no
KTUL say that 54% of the voters said no. No other details.
FOX23 has 24% reporting with 52% No and 48% Yes
i want to know why KJRH stopped reporting results?
I'm going to stop watching them starting tonight. I dont care how HAWT their babe anchors are. As soon as the no vote started gaining they stopped reporting while the other stations continued.
Natalie Sentz is the only KJRH babe worth watching.
Erin is a ***** in person and Beth Burnett reminds me of a barbie doll.
Anyway...nobody seems to be reporting now. I'm watching House and Fox23 hasn't given any results in a loooooong time.
KJRH just flipped their numbers with the same # of precinct's reporting... 52% no, 48% yes... conspiracy? [:D]
KOTV is at 71% reporting with 48% Yes and 51% No
KOTV 75% reporting
52% no
48% yes
Quite a change from the beginning of the count. This is where it would be helpful to see a map of responding precincts. LOL
Just got in and saw 52-48 "NO" with 75%. I would imagine that last 25% could yet flip it to "YES" but I'm not optimistic.
The sad thing is that I don't think many people realize how devastating a "No" result would be to the YP citizens of Tulsa, including myself.
I can't believe how many I've talked to that have considered moving based on the results of this election!
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
Natalie Sentz is the only KJRH babe worth watching.
Erin is a ***** in person and Beth Burnett reminds me of a barbie doll.
Anyway...nobody seems to be reporting now. I'm watching House and Fox23 hasn't given any results in a loooooong time.
you forgot about Krista Flasch....she is HAWT.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
The sad thing is that I don't think many people realize how devastating a "No" result would be to the YP citizens of Tulsa, including myself.
I can't believe how many I've talked to that have considered moving based on the results of this election!
oh cry me a river....[}:)]
I hear ya man. I'm a 28 year old attorney in Dallas, just waiting for the hometown to do ANYTHING to show me it's keeping up with the other cities I can choose from. Norman/OKC, where I spent college is improving; Chicago where I spent law school tempts me; Dallas, where my job is, just keeps getting denser and unlike Tulsa is improving their river in a very similar manner.
It's not like the result of this vote is going to push me away from moving home, but I sure had looked forward to new trails, restaurants, and growth in the center of town. There's always Jenks . . .
KOTV says "No" as of 9:43pm
Status Quo wins again..
Hooray status quo!
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Status Quo wins again..
Hooray status quo!
I suggest status quo lost this evening.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Status Quo wins again..
Hooray status quo!
I suggest status quo lost this evening.
what pisses me off is the CoC sunk all of their money into a lost cause...now the Chamber has no money to promote Tulsa in more productive ways.
1.3 million down the drain. what a waste.
The people of Tulsa are reasonable people. Present them with a clear and concise plan that is well explained and 99% of the time they will go for it.
This plan felt rushed and force fed from the very beginning. We never outgrow that hatred of having strained peas shoved down our throat when we were babies. That more than anything is the reason I heard people say they were voting no.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Status Quo wins again..
Hooray status quo!
I suggest status quo lost this evening.
what pisses me off is the CoC sunk all of their money into a lost cause...now the Chamber has no money to promote Tulsa in more productive ways.
1.3 million down the drain. what a waste.
Add the $750,000 cost of the elections and bring to a cool $2 Mil.[self-edit]
The more I think about this, I think the election cost is closer to $275,000.
This is really kind of frightening. I dont know if I want to stay here and continue to watch Tulsa flounder. I had a lot of plans for things I wanted to do here but if the city is going to keep going like this, it may not be worth staying and putting the effort into something where its not going to matter or pay off.
My best friend ever, moved to Dallas. Another recently moved to Chicago. My last assistant moved to Dallas and the guy that has been workig with me for the last 3 years keeps talking about moving. The office for the mural project I am currently working on which will take until spring to finish is in Dallas. I am doing the painting on canvas here and shipping it to the Oklahoma Texas Border and people in Dallas keep saying I could make a killing there. I may start getting my "house in order" so that I can move in the spring once this job is over.
I suppose deep down the one reason I have kept staying here is that leaving will definitely bring home the fact that I have wasted so much time here. Practically all of my youth, the last 20 years, hanging in there, hoping things would get better here, while my friends have left and lived it up. Guess its better late than never lol. I am not dead yet. [8D]
To all the younger people out there... Leave now! dont waste any time here! Take it from me, its not gonna change.
I laughed out loud when the final results came in. This was a disaster for Randi Miller, Mayor Taylor and the Tulsa World crowd.
Hopefully, they will listen to the majority of the people and prioritize improving city streets and lowering crime. However, I doubt it.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
This is really kind of frightening. I dont know if I want to stay here and continue to watch Tulsa flounder. I had a lot of plans for things I wanted to do here but if the city is going to keep going like this, it may not be worth staying and putting the effort into something where its not going to matter or pay off.
My best friend ever, moved to Dallas. Another recently moved to Chicago. My last assistant moved to Dallas and the guy that has been workig with me for the last 3 years keeps talking about moving. The office for the mural project I am currently working on which will take until spring to finish is in Dallas. I am doing the painting on canvas here and shipping it to the Oklahoma Texas Border and people in Dallas keep saying I could make a killing there. I may start getting my "house in order" so that I can move in the spring once this job is over.
I suppose deep down the one reason I have kept staying here is that leaving will definitely bring home the fact that I have wasted so much time here. Practically all of my youth, the last 20 years, hanging in there, hoping things would get better here, while my friends have left and lived it up. Guess its better late than never lol. I am not dead yet. [8D]
To all the younger people out there... Leave now! dont waste any time here! Take it from me, its not gonna change.
I hope you are placing the blame squarely where it should rest.
The failed leadership of this city lo these many years.
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
To all the younger people out there... Leave now! dont waste any time here! Take it from me, its not gonna change.
I hope you are placing the blame squarely where it should rest.
The failed leadership of this city lo these many years.
It really is strikingly embarassing how inept the political leadership of this city is. From a distance, it appears to be a result of a deeply mistrustful, divide political culture. Note that party regulars from both ends of the political spectrum opposed the plan (you ever see Bates and DoubleA team up on something before?). Note the name calling by both sides: CAVEmen vs. "Mid-town elite".
I cannot see the City of Tulsa truly succeeding in a way that is tangible and undeniable, progressing as a livable city, accomplishing river development, crime reduction, downtown revitalization, or major street repair, until a truly strong, consenus building mayor appears on the scene. A Giuliani or a Daley--someone to take the reins and lead. And frankly, I don't know if the parochial political climate in this town will ever allow such a leader to emerge.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
This is really kind of frightening. I dont know if I want to stay here and continue to watch Tulsa flounder. I had a lot of plans for things I wanted to do here but if the city is going to keep going like this, it may not be worth staying and putting the effort into something where its not going to matter or pay off.
Oh now, this isn't over. We're just getting started.
You'll see another package soon. Probably bigger, probably more comprehensive and all-inclusive.
As for the anti-tax idiots that troll the board, most of them don't realize, that this was probably the smallest tax package to be offered AND the least likely to pass from a strategic stand point. At best it's just a delay, at worst it's a phyrric victory.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
To all the younger people out there... Leave now! dont waste any time here! Take it from me, its not gonna change.
I hope you are placing the blame squarely where it should rest.
The failed leadership of this city lo these many years.
It really is strikingly embarassing how inept the political leadership of this city is. From a distance, it appears to be a result of a deeply mistrustful, divide political culture. Note that party regulars from both ends of the political spectrum opposed the plan (you ever see Bates and DoubleA team up on something before?). Note the name calling by both sides: CAVEmen vs. "Mid-town elite".
I cannot see the City of Tulsa truly succeeding in a way that is tangible and undeniable, progressing as a livable city, accomplishing river development, crime reduction, downtown revitalization, or major street repair, until a truly strong, consenus building mayor appears on the scene. A Giuliani or a Daley--someone to take the reins and lead. And frankly, I don't know if the parochial political climate in this town will ever allow such a leader to emerge.
There's a reason City Council meetings always remind me of the war room scenes from Dr. Strangelove
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
This is really kind of frightening. I dont know if I want to stay here and continue to watch Tulsa flounder. I had a lot of plans for things I wanted to do here but if the city is going to keep going like this, it may not be worth staying and putting the effort into something where its not going to matter or pay off.
Oh now, this isn't over. We're just getting started.
You'll see another package soon. Probably bigger, probably more comprehensive and all-inclusive.
As for the anti-tax idiots that troll the board, most of them don't realize, that this was probably the smallest tax package to be offered AND the least likely to pass from a strategic stand point. At best it's just a delay, at worst it's a phyrric victory.
Wasn't the last river tax vote in the 60's?
Wonder what Kaiser has to say...
It won't be 40 more years this time. Wouldn't be surprised to see it about this same time next year or early 2009, right after the Arena opens.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
It won't be 40 more years this time. Wouldn't be surprised to see it about this same time next year or early 2009, right after the Arena opens.
Won't be before County District 1 election results.
The last river tax vote was around 1981-82 for the existing low water dam. It failed, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
Won't be before County District 1 election results.
The last river tax vote was around 1981-82 for the existing low water dam. It failed, too.
*shrug*
At least we're setting a time frame.
Nothing about this seemed to me to be the "final word". They cobbled this strange exclusive thing together, and they pulled out all the stops when it seemed like it might actually work.
This isn't over. Not by a long shot. They know what they want, they know how to get it. They almost succeeded with the half-assed version.
To those who voted yes, cheer up, you'll see this again soon enough.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
This is really kind of frightening. I dont know if I want to stay here and continue to watch Tulsa flounder. I had a lot of plans for things I wanted to do here but if the city is going to keep going like this, it may not be worth staying and putting the effort into something where its not going to matter or pay off.
Oh now, this isn't over. We're just getting started.
You'll see another package soon. Probably bigger, probably more comprehensive and all-inclusive.
As for the anti-tax idiots that troll the board, most of them don't realize, that this was probably the smallest tax package to be offered AND the least likely to pass from a strategic stand point. At best it's just a delay, at worst it's a phyrric victory.
There is no way there is going to be a vote that has more taxes than this plan. Nor will it be a county vote. The suburbs were hollering about wanting any possible sales tax hike to be for their own needs. Most cities are taxed out around here and any additional future tax will specifically be for their own growing needs. I dont think people will stomach a 10% sales tax and many communities are getting quite close to that. What wiggle room they have left to raise taxes, they want for themselves.
As for north Tulsa, if they want to play the, "unless we get something, nobody gets anything" game, well everyone else might as well play that game as well. So many big donors from midtown and south Tulsa pay for charities and foundations, to help the schools, book drives, food drives, health services, hospitals, etc. etc. for north Tulsa. They probably pay far less in taxes to pay for their share of roads, police, etc. than other parts of town. In other words, they continually take and get more than they generate. So if they insist on it being everyone getting as much as they can get for themselves. We should all just focus on our own parts of the city. If they dont see any value in helping other parts of the city out with their vote (cause they sure wouldnt be paying much of anything in taxes) I am not going to vote, or continue to give any of my money or time to anything for them.
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
That was what made Vision 2025 so "right".
Tulsa County has been down this road before. It has the right combination, and it didn't use it. They slipped this thing in, refused to consider all options, presented it before talking to the county about it, and it failed. By a relatively slim margin. Large numbers of folks in this county, really wanted this. And they damn near succeeded.
There were good reasons to vote it down, not everyone who voted against it was one of the anti-tax stooges that troll this board. North Tulsa felt slighted, BA and Owasso saw no benefit to it, for various reasons, they had every right to oppose it. You can fill them full of regional benefits, but in the end, you have to be persuasive. You can't just say "awww, screw em" then cross your fingers and hope they don't show up at the polls. Try including them, we've successfully done this before.
No new taxes? 48% voted for this package, despite feelings about Randi Miller, Kathy Taylor, a piss-poor but expensive promotion strategy, seemingly little forethought towards the burbs, and a whole bunch of lying anti-tax fools. All you have to swing is about 3500 of those who voted. And extending or hiking that tax wouldn't take much, it was low to begin with.
If this is the best package that Tulsa County and the City of Tulsa can give, then they don't know what they're doing and they should all be fired. They put out a package, said "you'll vote for it or you won't", then watched as they lost large swaths of the county. Despite their largely pathetic approach, they came so close.
The way it was handled from the very beginning told me that the vote was closer to a primer than the real deal, even though they gave it a serious push when they closed the gap. I'd have loved to have seen it pass. I'm nearly 100% confident that we'll see a similar expanded package within two years.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Status Quo wins again..
Hooray status quo!
I suggest status quo lost this evening.
Yep.
Anyone think Swakes head exploded around 10:03......
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
That was what made Vision 2025 so "right".
Tulsa County has been down this road before. It has the right combination, and it didn't use it. They slipped this thing in, refused to consider all options, presented it before talking to the county about it, and it failed. By a relatively slim margin. Large numbers of folks in this county, really wanted this. And they damn near succeeded.
There were good reasons to vote it down, not everyone who voted against it was one of the anti-tax stooges that troll this board. North Tulsa felt slighted, BA and Owasso saw no benefit to it, for various reasons, they had every right to oppose it. You can fill them full of regional benefits, but in the end, you have to be persuasive. You can't just say "awww, screw em" then cross your fingers and hope they don't show up at the polls. Try including them, we've successfully done this before.
No new taxes? 48% voted for this package, despite feelings about Randi Miller, Kathy Taylor, a piss-poor but expensive promotion strategy, seemingly little forethought towards the burbs, and a whole bunch of lying anti-tax fools. All you have to swing is about 3500 of those who voted. And extending or hiking that tax wouldn't take much, it was low to begin with.
If this is the best package that Tulsa County and the City of Tulsa can give, then they don't know what they're doing and they should all be fired. They put out a package, said "you'll vote for it or you won't", then watched as they lost large swaths of the county. Despite their largely pathetic approach, they came so close.
The way it was handled from the very beginning told me that the vote was closer to a primer than the real deal, even though they gave it a serious push when they closed the gap. I'd have loved to have seen it pass. I'm nearly 100% confident that we'll see a similar expanded package within two years.
Your remarks are encouraging in a sea of sewage from the aginners.
The big loser imo is North Tulsa. Talk about childish, selfish, punishing leadership. They mobilized their community to be against Taylor and Miller instead of for something, anything. I, like Artist, am losing my compassion for their plight. Silence on their part would have been preferable to making it a political battle. Being left out of planning was an afterthought. Roscoe, retire. Henderson, get a job.
But you Michael C.? You should run for office. Anyone who can make me feel like staying here after being reminded of what Tulsa is really like, can build consensus here. Not consensus from the likes of Toony, Tiny, FB and AA but among those of us with differing political views but common business growth views.
Unless you really look like a troll and don't have Hillary tatooed on your bicep you should consider it.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
That was what made Vision 2025 so "right".
Tulsa County has been down this road before. It has the right combination, and it didn't use it. They slipped this thing in, refused to consider all options, presented it before talking to the county about it, and it failed. By a relatively slim margin. Large numbers of folks in this county, really wanted this. And they damn near succeeded.
There were good reasons to vote it down, not everyone who voted against it was one of the anti-tax stooges that troll this board. North Tulsa felt slighted, BA and Owasso saw no benefit to it, for various reasons, they had every right to oppose it. You can fill them full of regional benefits, but in the end, you have to be persuasive. You can't just say "awww, screw em" then cross your fingers and hope they don't show up at the polls. Try including them, we've successfully done this before.
No new taxes? 48% voted for this package, despite feelings about Randi Miller, Kathy Taylor, a piss-poor but expensive promotion strategy, seemingly little forethought towards the burbs, and a whole bunch of lying anti-tax fools. All you have to swing is about 3500 of those who voted. And extending or hiking that tax wouldn't take much, it was low to begin with.
If this is the best package that Tulsa County and the City of Tulsa can give, then they don't know what they're doing and they should all be fired. They put out a package, said "you'll vote for it or you won't", then watched as they lost large swaths of the county. Despite their largely pathetic approach, they came so close.
The way it was handled from the very beginning told me that the vote was closer to a primer than the real deal, even though they gave it a serious push when they closed the gap. I'd have loved to have seen it pass. I'm nearly 100% confident that we'll see a similar expanded package within two years.
There were far more people arguing that taxes are too high, and just "no more taxes". How can the county come up with a plan that has less taxes yet has more things for more communities? Why wouldnt those communities just do exactly what they want and no more?
It seems absurd in this climate to come up with a plan that says, you get this, you get that, etc etc. BA, Glenpool and others were saying they need what possible new taxes may be raised have to go to their communities. Wy would they raise their taxes even more for a larger county tax when they can raise their city tax a smaller amount and get what they want? If they would be getting more than they would be paying in, that means someone is paying out more and getting less, Tulsa perhaps?
I would say Tulsa should pair up with Sand Springs if anyone, to help them with their larger dam because it will also help us with ours if we want them. Let Jenks build its own dam, they can afford it and will likely be able to pass it.
And no, I am not voting for anything more for north Tulsa. They already get more than they put in and they dont believe that things in another part of town can benefit them. So why should I believe that doing something in north Tulsa will benefit me?
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
That was what made Vision 2025 so "right".
Tulsa County has been down this road before. It has the right combination, and it didn't use it. They slipped this thing in, refused to consider all options, presented it before talking to the county about it, and it failed. By a relatively slim margin. Large numbers of folks in this county, really wanted this. And they damn near succeeded.
There were good reasons to vote it down, not everyone who voted against it was one of the anti-tax stooges that troll this board. North Tulsa felt slighted, BA and Owasso saw no benefit to it, for various reasons, they had every right to oppose it. You can fill them full of regional benefits, but in the end, you have to be persuasive. You can't just say "awww, screw em" then cross your fingers and hope they don't show up at the polls. Try including them, we've successfully done this before.
No new taxes? 48% voted for this package, despite feelings about Randi Miller, Kathy Taylor, a piss-poor but expensive promotion strategy, seemingly little forethought towards the burbs, and a whole bunch of lying anti-tax fools. All you have to swing is about 3500 of those who voted. And extending or hiking that tax wouldn't take much, it was low to begin with.
If this is the best package that Tulsa County and the City of Tulsa can give, then they don't know what they're doing and they should all be fired. They put out a package, said "you'll vote for it or you won't", then watched as they lost large swaths of the county. Despite their largely pathetic approach, they came so close.
The way it was handled from the very beginning told me that the vote was closer to a primer than the real deal, even though they gave it a serious push when they closed the gap. I'd have loved to have seen it pass. I'm nearly 100% confident that we'll see a similar expanded package within two years.
There were far more people arguing that taxes are too high, and just "no more taxes". How can the county come up with a plan that has less taxes yet has more things for more communities? Why wouldnt those communities just do exactly what they want and no more?
It seems absurd in this climate to come up with a plan that says, you get this, you get that, etc etc. BA, Glenpool and others were saying they need what possible new taxes may be raised have to go to their communities. Wy would they raise their taxes even more for a larger county tax when they can raise their city tax a smaller amount and get what they want? If they would be getting more than they would be paying in, that means someone is paying out more and getting less, Tulsa perhaps?
I would say Tulsa should pair up with Sand Springs if anyone, to help them with their larger dam because it will also help us with ours if we want them. Let Jenks build its own dam, they can afford it and will likely be able to pass it.
And no, I am not voting for anything more for north Tulsa. They already get more than they put in and they dont believe that things in another part of town can benefit them. So why should I believe that doing something in north Tulsa will benefit me?
Artist, it is becoming more and more obvious that the only solution to the Balkanization of the region, being encouraged for ambitious, political/religious reasons, is a city income tax. If you work here, you pay for the privilege. It would be punishing for the burbs, but the reality is that they suck the life out of our city, hang their expensive, wasteful lifestyles on us and refuse to admit their parentage and their reliance upon our success. Like impetuous teenagers.
Of course it will get a lot of demagogues elected on the platform of no new taxes unless you tie it directly to roads, infrastructure and the river. North Tulsa will love it, they'll take the earned income credit.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
There were far more people arguing that taxes are too high, and just "no more taxes". How can the county come up with a plan that has less taxes yet has more things for more communities? Why wouldnt those communities just do exactly what they want and no more?
Perhaps the ones you heard.
I stayed outside this weird bubble on the forum, talked to a lot of people who were voting against it. And there were several times I heard "I'm voting against it, but the tax is small and probably would benefit the area." And instead of taxes, people were complaining about Randi Miller and how she comes off as dishonest or how she doesn't seem to care about real concerns.
You're not trying to please everyone, it won't happen. This isn't about the anti-tax folk, they're too stupid to try and convince. You're automatically going to have near 40% opposed just because of idiots. But a 6300 vote gap out of 127,000 people that voted, is small. The Yes side and the gov't fell short. They made a ton of errors, and almost passed it anyway.
This forum is only partially representative of the no vote. Only the loud mouthed anti-tax idiots show up here. There was a lot of thought that went into that 6300 vote difference, and it boils down to an exclusive tax and a character in gov't that certainly seemed to not care.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
That was what made Vision 2025 so "right".
Tulsa County has been down this road before. It has the right combination, and it didn't use it. They slipped this thing in, refused to consider all options, presented it before talking to the county about it, and it failed. By a relatively slim margin. Large numbers of folks in this county, really wanted this. And they damn near succeeded.
There were good reasons to vote it down, not everyone who voted against it was one of the anti-tax stooges that troll this board. North Tulsa felt slighted, BA and Owasso saw no benefit to it, for various reasons, they had every right to oppose it. You can fill them full of regional benefits, but in the end, you have to be persuasive. You can't just say "awww, screw em" then cross your fingers and hope they don't show up at the polls. Try including them, we've successfully done this before.
No new taxes? 48% voted for this package, despite feelings about Randi Miller, Kathy Taylor, a piss-poor but expensive promotion strategy, seemingly little forethought towards the burbs, and a whole bunch of lying anti-tax fools. All you have to swing is about 3500 of those who voted. And extending or hiking that tax wouldn't take much, it was low to begin with.
If this is the best package that Tulsa County and the City of Tulsa can give, then they don't know what they're doing and they should all be fired. They put out a package, said "you'll vote for it or you won't", then watched as they lost large swaths of the county. Despite their largely pathetic approach, they came so close.
The way it was handled from the very beginning told me that the vote was closer to a primer than the real deal, even though they gave it a serious push when they closed the gap. I'd have loved to have seen it pass. I'm nearly 100% confident that we'll see a similar expanded package within two years.
There were far more people arguing that taxes are too high, and just "no more taxes". How can the county come up with a plan that has less taxes yet has more things for more communities? Why wouldnt those communities just do exactly what they want and no more?
It seems absurd in this climate to come up with a plan that says, you get this, you get that, etc etc. BA, Glenpool and others were saying they need what possible new taxes may be raised have to go to their communities. Wy would they raise their taxes even more for a larger county tax when they can raise their city tax a smaller amount and get what they want? If they would be getting more than they would be paying in, that means someone is paying out more and getting less, Tulsa perhaps?
I would say Tulsa should pair up with Sand Springs if anyone, to help them with their larger dam because it will also help us with ours if we want them. Let Jenks build its own dam, they can afford it and will likely be able to pass it.
And no, I am not voting for anything more for north Tulsa. They already get more than they put in and they dont believe that things in another part of town can benefit them. So why should I believe that doing something in north Tulsa will benefit me?
Artist, it is becoming more and more obvious that the only solution to the Balkanization of the region, being encouraged for ambitious, political/religious reasons, is a city income tax. If you work here, you pay for the privilege. It would be punishing for the burbs, but the reality is that they suck the life out of our city, hang their expensive, wasteful lifestyles on us and refuse to admit their parentage and their reliance upon our success. Like impetuous teenagers.
Of course it will get a lot of demagogues elected on the platform of no new taxes unless you tie it directly to roads, infrastructure and the river. North Tulsa will love it, they'll take the earned income credit.
And then you will see businesses flee Tulsa and set up shop just outside city limits. The suburbs will turn into the cheap labor pool much like Mexico is to the rest of the U.S.A.
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
That was what made Vision 2025 so "right".
Tulsa County has been down this road before. It has the right combination, and it didn't use it. They slipped this thing in, refused to consider all options, presented it before talking to the county about it, and it failed. By a relatively slim margin. Large numbers of folks in this county, really wanted this. And they damn near succeeded.
There were good reasons to vote it down, not everyone who voted against it was one of the anti-tax stooges that troll this board. North Tulsa felt slighted, BA and Owasso saw no benefit to it, for various reasons, they had every right to oppose it. You can fill them full of regional benefits, but in the end, you have to be persuasive. You can't just say "awww, screw em" then cross your fingers and hope they don't show up at the polls. Try including them, we've successfully done this before.
No new taxes? 48% voted for this package, despite feelings about Randi Miller, Kathy Taylor, a piss-poor but expensive promotion strategy, seemingly little forethought towards the burbs, and a whole bunch of lying anti-tax fools. All you have to swing is about 3500 of those who voted. And extending or hiking that tax wouldn't take much, it was low to begin with.
If this is the best package that Tulsa County and the City of Tulsa can give, then they don't know what they're doing and they should all be fired. They put out a package, said "you'll vote for it or you won't", then watched as they lost large swaths of the county. Despite their largely pathetic approach, they came so close.
The way it was handled from the very beginning told me that the vote was closer to a primer than the real deal, even though they gave it a serious push when they closed the gap. I'd have loved to have seen it pass. I'm nearly 100% confident that we'll see a similar expanded package within two years.
There were far more people arguing that taxes are too high, and just "no more taxes". How can the county come up with a plan that has less taxes yet has more things for more communities? Why wouldnt those communities just do exactly what they want and no more?
It seems absurd in this climate to come up with a plan that says, you get this, you get that, etc etc. BA, Glenpool and others were saying they need what possible new taxes may be raised have to go to their communities. Wy would they raise their taxes even more for a larger county tax when they can raise their city tax a smaller amount and get what they want? If they would be getting more than they would be paying in, that means someone is paying out more and getting less, Tulsa perhaps?
I would say Tulsa should pair up with Sand Springs if anyone, to help them with their larger dam because it will also help us with ours if we want them. Let Jenks build its own dam, they can afford it and will likely be able to pass it.
And no, I am not voting for anything more for north Tulsa. They already get more than they put in and they dont believe that things in another part of town can benefit them. So why should I believe that doing something in north Tulsa will benefit me?
Artist, it is becoming more and more obvious that the only solution to the Balkanization of the region, being encouraged for ambitious, political/religious reasons, is a city income tax. If you work here, you pay for the privilege. It would be punishing for the burbs, but the reality is that they suck the life out of our city, hang their expensive, wasteful lifestyles on us and refuse to admit their parentage and their reliance upon our success. Like impetuous teenagers.
Of course it will get a lot of demagogues elected on the platform of no new taxes unless you tie it directly to roads, infrastructure and the river. North Tulsa will love it, they'll take the earned income credit.
And then you will see businesses flee Tulsa and set up shop just outside city limits. The suburbs will turn into the cheap labor pool much like Mexico is to the rest of the U.S.A.
Then the shoe will be on the other foot because using that logic, the burbs will have to raise their taxes to accommodate all the fleeing businesses with new infrastructure, road building, policing, water sourcing, public buildings, fire stations, sewer treatment plants, and on and on. Of course we peons here in Tulsa will be travelling over to BA for our new jobs and bringing the income home...city income tax free.
I like your thought process here. Go on.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Artist, it is becoming more and more obvious that the only solution to the Balkanization of the region, being encouraged for ambitious, political/religious reasons, is a city income tax. If you work here, you pay for the privilege. It would be punishing for the burbs, but the reality is that they suck the life out of our city, hang their expensive, wasteful lifestyles on us and refuse to admit their parentage and their reliance upon our success. Like impetuous teenagers.
Of course it will get a lot of demagogues elected on the platform of no new taxes unless you tie it directly to roads, infrastructure and the river. North Tulsa will love it, they'll take the earned income credit.
Wow. Let's scapegoat bedroom communities. And treat them like children. That'd be really smart. Good people who are raising families...
Nope. Rampant territorialism is the problem in this city.
In Chicago, I never saw citizens from Schaumburg being asked to use a sales-tax to fund a Lake-only or Chicago River-only beautification project...
But go ahead... blame the 'burbs... THAT'S become the status quo in Tulsa...
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
This is really kind of frightening. I dont know if I want to stay here and continue to watch Tulsa flounder. I had a lot of plans for things I wanted to do here but if the city is going to keep going like this, it may not be worth staying and putting the effort into something where its not going to matter or pay off.
My best friend ever, moved to Dallas. Another recently moved to Chicago. My last assistant moved to Dallas and the guy that has been workig with me for the last 3 years keeps talking about moving. The office for the mural project I am currently working on which will take until spring to finish is in Dallas. I am doing the painting on canvas here and shipping it to the Oklahoma Texas Border and people in Dallas keep saying I could make a killing there. I may start getting my "house in order" so that I can move in the spring once this job is over.
I suppose deep down the one reason I have kept staying here is that leaving will definitely bring home the fact that I have wasted so much time here. Practically all of my youth, the last 20 years, hanging in there, hoping things would get better here, while my friends have left and lived it up. Guess its better late than never lol. I am not dead yet. [8D]
To all the younger people out there... Leave now! dont waste any time here! Take it from me, its not gonna change.
please take you, and all your ilk and move to San Fran....PLEASE....do it for the children![}:)][}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Anyone think Swakes head exploded around 10:03......
one could only hope....but he was busy trolling with the regionalist drivel this morning..[V]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
That was what made Vision 2025 so "right".
Tulsa County has been down this road before. It has the right combination, and it didn't use it. They slipped this thing in, refused to consider all options, presented it before talking to the county about it, and it failed. By a relatively slim margin. Large numbers of folks in this county, really wanted this. And they damn near succeeded.
There were good reasons to vote it down, not everyone who voted against it was one of the anti-tax stooges that troll this board. North Tulsa felt slighted, BA and Owasso saw no benefit to it, for various reasons, they had every right to oppose it. You can fill them full of regional benefits, but in the end, you have to be persuasive. You can't just say "awww, screw em" then cross your fingers and hope they don't show up at the polls. Try including them, we've successfully done this before.
No new taxes? 48% voted for this package, despite feelings about Randi Miller, Kathy Taylor, a piss-poor but expensive promotion strategy, seemingly little forethought towards the burbs, and a whole bunch of lying anti-tax fools. All you have to swing is about 3500 of those who voted. And extending or hiking that tax wouldn't take much, it was low to begin with.
If this is the best package that Tulsa County and the City of Tulsa can give, then they don't know what they're doing and they should all be fired. They put out a package, said "you'll vote for it or you won't", then watched as they lost large swaths of the county. Despite their largely pathetic approach, they came so close.
The way it was handled from the very beginning told me that the vote was closer to a primer than the real deal, even though they gave it a serious push when they closed the gap. I'd have loved to have seen it pass. I'm nearly 100% confident that we'll see a similar expanded package within two years.
Your remarks are encouraging in a sea of sewage from the aginners.
The big loser imo is North Tulsa. Talk about childish, selfish, punishing leadership. They mobilized their community to be against Taylor and Miller instead of for something, anything. I, like Artist, am losing my compassion for their plight. Silence on their part would have been preferable to making it a political battle. Being left out of planning was an afterthought. Roscoe, retire. Henderson, get a job.
But you Michael C.? You should run for office. Anyone who can make me feel like staying here after being reminded of what Tulsa is really like, can build consensus here. Not consensus from the likes of Toony, Tiny, FB and AA but among those of us with differing political views but common business growth views.
Unless you really look like a troll and don't have Hillary tatooed on your bicep you should consider it.
What's holding you back Waterbouy?
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Artist, it is becoming more and more obvious that the only solution to the Balkanization of the region, being encouraged for ambitious, political/religious reasons, is a city income tax. If you work here, you pay for the privilege. It would be punishing for the burbs, but the reality is that they suck the life out of our city, hang their expensive, wasteful lifestyles on us and refuse to admit their parentage and their reliance upon our success. Like impetuous teenagers.
Of course it will get a lot of demagogues elected on the platform of no new taxes unless you tie it directly to roads, infrastructure and the river. North Tulsa will love it, they'll take the earned income credit.
Wow. Let's scapegoat bedroom communities. And treat them like children. That'd be really smart. Good people who are raising families...
Nope. Rampant territorialism is the problem in this city.
In Chicago, I never saw citizens from Schaumburg being asked to use a sales-tax to fund a Lake-only or Chicago River-only beautification project...
But go ahead... blame the 'burbs... THAT'S become the status quo in Tulsa...
Planning on moving to one of the burbs, eh? Maybe you should reconsider and stay in the windy city where race decides where people live.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Seems the trend is, we want our taxes to be kept in our community. There is no doing something somewhere else for a supposed "greater good".
That was what made Vision 2025 so "right".
Tulsa County has been down this road before. It has the right combination, and it didn't use it. They slipped this thing in, refused to consider all options, presented it before talking to the county about it, and it failed. By a relatively slim margin. Large numbers of folks in this county, really wanted this. And they damn near succeeded.
There were good reasons to vote it down, not everyone who voted against it was one of the anti-tax stooges that troll this board. North Tulsa felt slighted, BA and Owasso saw no benefit to it, for various reasons, they had every right to oppose it. You can fill them full of regional benefits, but in the end, you have to be persuasive. You can't just say "awww, screw em" then cross your fingers and hope they don't show up at the polls. Try including them, we've successfully done this before.
No new taxes? 48% voted for this package, despite feelings about Randi Miller, Kathy Taylor, a piss-poor but expensive promotion strategy, seemingly little forethought towards the burbs, and a whole bunch of lying anti-tax fools. All you have to swing is about 3500 of those who voted. And extending or hiking that tax wouldn't take much, it was low to begin with.
If this is the best package that Tulsa County and the City of Tulsa can give, then they don't know what they're doing and they should all be fired. They put out a package, said "you'll vote for it or you won't", then watched as they lost large swaths of the county. Despite their largely pathetic approach, they came so close.
The way it was handled from the very beginning told me that the vote was closer to a primer than the real deal, even though they gave it a serious push when they closed the gap. I'd have loved to have seen it pass. I'm nearly 100% confident that we'll see a similar expanded package within two years.
Your remarks are encouraging in a sea of sewage from the aginners.
The big loser imo is North Tulsa. Talk about childish, selfish, punishing leadership. They mobilized their community to be against Taylor and Miller instead of for something, anything. I, like Artist, am losing my compassion for their plight. Silence on their part would have been preferable to making it a political battle. Being left out of planning was an afterthought. Roscoe, retire. Henderson, get a job.
But you Michael C.? You should run for office. Anyone who can make me feel like staying here after being reminded of what Tulsa is really like, can build consensus here. Not consensus from the likes of Toony, Tiny, FB and AA but among those of us with differing political views but common business growth views.
Unless you really look like a troll and don't have Hillary tatooed on your bicep you should consider it.
What's holding you back Waterbouy?
I don't have a tattoo of Reagan on my buttocks.[;)] Truly? Politics today is for the young or those who enjoy being abused. I am neither and I don't see an upside to serving. I do admire anyone who puts themself through the process.