i said two years ago when ardent bought out hillcrest that this would never last... the state/fed financial package for the hospital was bull**** and osu was skimming way too much off the top... so now, it is done... ardent is through subsidizing the osu residency programs... no other hospital in town will touch these programs with a ten foot pole...
the med school will be fine, except it won't have a hospital, but other than that it'll be aces (just like ou tulsa- med school sans hospital)... but, the residency programs are doomed...
someone should call mr pickens and ask him to buy trmc from ardent en toto... problem is, the state has never shown their willing to give enough money to fund a public hospital and they won't start now... so even if it is purchased for osu, the recurring costs would never get funded... the state should have given us a real public hospital a long time ago...
hess makes it sound like they can work this out, no freaking way.... truth is, this is only going to change if osu coughs up the cash... cant blame ardent, there a private company providing an unreimbursed public service- i wouldnt do it either...
somebody get the keys... start the bus...
"Hospital's program in jeopardy
By CURTIS KILLMAN World Staff Writer
9/22/2007
Ardent announces it is ending the agreement that provides medical resident training at the OSU Medical Center.
Ardent Health Services, citing a contract breach, said Friday it was terminating an agreement that provides for the medical resident training program at the Oklahoma State University Medical Center in Tulsa.
Ardent officials say the agreement breach, which stems from a funding dispute, forced them to initiate the contract termination process, which takes up to two years to complete.
The move comes 16 months after hospital and university officials signed a 50-year agreement designed to put the teaching program on stable financial ground.
"There are significant challenges with any teaching hospital, but we must have a true partnership to make this work and to date, that has not materialized," said Earl Denning, president and CEO for Ardent Health Services - Oklahoma Division. Ardent owns the former Tulsa Regional Medical Center.
An OSU official said he was disappointed Ardent has opted to terminate the contract, and expressed concerns about the future of the program, especially as the university prepares to recruit new
physicians for fall 2008.
"While this current circumstance obviously means the program is at some risk, we remain committed to seeking a long-term solution for our residency program," said James Hess, chief operating officer and vice president for Health Care Administration for OSU Medical Center in Tulsa.
The hospital, 744 W. Ninth St., has 132 residents from the OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine.
The medical resident program has been credited with turning out many doctors over the years, with many working in rural and underserved areas of the state. The contract termination could hurt the university's ability to attract physicians to the residency program, Hess said.
"I'm certain it will have an impact on the recruiting effort," he said. "It's difficult to say what impact at this point."
About 35 to 36 resident physicians come to the program each year, Hess said.
At issue are two sources of funding tied to the hospital, one for federally matched funds appropriated by the Oklahoma Health Care Authority and another $20 million appropriated by the state Legislature.
Ardent officials claim the company is entitled to receive all of about $6.5 million in federally matched funds allocated to OSU by the Oklahoma Health Care Authority.
"It's difficult to have a sense of partnership when $6.5 million is diverted from our hospital's control -- a hospital that is crucial to the underserved, as well as physician training," Denning said.
But OSU officials dispute Ardent's claim to all of the OHCA funds and instead point to an offer to split the funds with the hospital as it has in the past.
Ardent in June sued the Oklahoma Health Care Authority in federal court over the allocation of the funds.
The OHCA funding dispute in turn triggered a request by Ardent that it be given a portion of the $20 million appropriated by the Legislature.
The OSU Medical Authority, which oversees use of the legislative funds, has allocated $10.6 million of the $20 million for a variety of capital items.
"We were counting on that $6.5 million," Denning said. "And all of a sudden it's gone, and so we're saying, 'Wait a minute; if you are going to take that money then I want some of the $10.6 million in underwriting some of the expenses that I am paying out of my pocket for your teaching program.' "
Said Hess, regarding the request: "The university has felt that the Legislature and governor's office in approving the legislation, we believe it was their intent that the money be used for capital improvements at the facility, not for operations. Ardent would desire the use of the funds otherwise."
Denning said it was "shame that this has all happened," referring to the funding dispute.
"I understand and appreciate the role of the teaching program," he said. "But we are paying out of our own pockets $13 million a year to support this program."
"Now we're in the hole $19.5 million, and we can't continue down that road, and we won't continue down that road," Denning said.
A spokeswoman for the Oklahoma Health Care Authority defended the agency's decision to give all of the $6.5 million in funds from the Indirect Medical Education program to OSU. The program is similar to one with the University of Oklahoma College of Medicine and "within the federal and state policies," agency spokeswoman Jo Kilgore said.
"Payments for the IME program are made under an approved federal / state Medicaid plan," a statement from Kilgore said. "The plan authorizes the agency to make payments to each university as part of the joint venture between the operator of the hospital and the medical school."
Both Hess and Denning said they will continue to explore their options.
"There is some time available to seek solutions, and we'll be in the process of exploring those with our legislative partners," Hess said.
"An instability in the teaching program in the residency training program could have long-term implications in the availability of physicians in rural and underserved Oklahoma," Hess said.
A state senator who last month intervened in the dispute to try to work out a deal between the two entities said he was concerned about the termination of the agreement.
"I am very disappointed that the folks at the College of Medicine and Ardent aren't doing a better job of working well together," said Sen. Mike Mazzei, R-Tulsa.
"If they don't resolve their differences, the ramifications for both organizations aren't good," Mazzei said. "I'm mostly concerned for the medical residents and students who are once again faced with uncertainties after something pretty historic was done to help secure the medical school's training facilities future."
Oklahoma State University Medical Center: A teaching hospital
Oklahoma State University Medical Center, formerly Tulsa Regional Medical Center, has served as the teaching hospital for OSU's College of Osteopathic Medicine for more than 30 years. Here is a recent timeline of events involving the hospital:
May 11, 2004: Ardent Health Services of Nashville, Tenn., purchases Hillcrest Healthcare System, including TRMC, 744 W. Ninth St.
July 2005: Nine members are named to a joint commission led by Republican Rep. Chris Benge and Democratic Sen. Tom Adelson, both of Tulsa, to study the TRMC-OSU issue. The commission issues a report in December and eventually hires consultants to examine the situation.
April 2006: After evaluating several options, Merrill Lynch analysts release a report recommending a 50-year Academic Affiliation Agreement between the OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine and TRMC.
May 5, 2006: Officials from the OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine and TRMC sign the Academic Affiliation Agreement.
June 7, 2006: Gov. Brad Henry signs the Oklahoma State University Medical Authority Act (Senate Bill 1771), creating the Oklahoma State University Medical Center Public Trust and Authority, and appropriating $40 million to fund improvements at Tulsa Regional Medical Center over five years.
Sept. 26, 2006: Henry convenes the first meeting of the OSU Medical Authority.
Nov. 2, 2006: Tulsa Regional Medical Center becomes Oklahoma State University Medical Center.
Jan. 25, 2007: OSU Medical Authority approves $10.6 million in phase I capital improvement projects for the OSU Medical Center. Projects, scheduled for completion by July 2008, include enhancements and/or expansions to residency program space, Labor & Delivery / neonatal ICU, and operating rooms, and the emergency department.
June : Ardent sues the Oklahoma Health Care Authority in federal court over the allocation of federal funding for medical education.
July 12: Ardent tells the OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine it wants $6.5 million the medical school has received from the state to go toward offsetting costs associated with the residency program.
Aug. 13: Ardent notifies the College of Osteopathic Medicine of the termination of the Academic Affiliation Agreement, but later withdraws the termination letter, providing an additional 30 days to reach a solution.
Sept. 14: OSU's governing board votes to have Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson represent OSU in the contract dispute.
Sept. 21: Ardent announces it is terminating the Academic Affiliation Agreement."
So this is OSU and the state's fault?
It's really hard to tell from the outside. It certainly seems to be the state's lack of funding that's at fault, but in knowing a couple of people that work at Hillcrest, Ardent is not a great company.
There's has to be a way to make this work, doesn't there?
Didn't OSU try to buy the hospital originally and only went into this ardent thing reluctantly?
quote:
Originally posted by swake
So this is OSU and the state's fault?
It's really hard to tell from the outside. It certainly seems to be the state's lack of funding that's at fault, but in knowing a couple of people that work at Hillcrest, Ardent is not a great company.
There's has to be a way to make this work, doesn't there?
yes.... osu got enough money to fund their teaching program but decided to use it to expand the med school and get some capital improvements... they got those two increases last year when they poor mouthed about how they were going to lose their program because ardent was going to kick them out... but osu decided to keep more of the cash than they had initially let on to ardent... now, they (osu) are shocked that the private company that owns the hospital is a little torqued to be out 19 mill for a residency teaching program...
and yes, the state has never funded a public hospital for tulsa and this was a half-assed attempt... osu went into this because arrangement because ardent was willing to accept the cash in return for letting them stay at trmc... osu has never had the resources to buy trmc and the state has never indicated theyd help them get them...
ardent is like any healthcare company... no better or worse than any of the local players in t-town...
in short, the boys in the capitol are leaving tulsa hanging, osu got greedy with the money they begged for and ardent is sick of being screwed...
the only resolution is to buy off ardent temporarily or buy the whole damn thing off their hands (which is what they want anyway)...
"osu got enough money to fund their teaching program but decided to use it to expand the med school and get some capital improvements"
Expand the Residency program you mean?
Capital improvement - whats the hospital worth to OSU if they don't have the facilities necessary to train residents?
I'm hearing that Ardent has a similar arrangement with OU. The reason the legislature stepped in is because the school is needed to supply new physicians for the state, particularly in rural areas. That still has to be the priority. It may get worse before it gets better.
quote:
Originally posted by jne
"osu got enough money to fund their teaching program but decided to use it to expand the med school and get some capital improvements"
Expand the Residency program you mean?
Capital improvement - whats the hospital worth to OSU if they don't have the facilities necessary to train residents?
I'm hearing that Ardent has a similar arrangement with OU. The reason the legislature stepped in is because the school is needed to supply new physicians for the state, particularly in rural areas. That still has to be the priority. It may get worse before it gets better.
no, i meant med school... the residencies are operated by departments of the osu medical school and the money was funneled into the departments within medical school... the capital improvements went to the departments themselves, for equipment, for med school facilities and some into the hospital... they did not offset ardent's costs/losses, which was ardent's point from the beginning...
the only interaction ardent has with ou is at hillcrest, thats a completely different arrangement... trmc is a money pit and has been turned into the de facto public hospital... ardent wants no part of it... "whats the hospital worth to OSU if they don't have the facilities necessary to train residents?" zero, but the better question is "what are the residency programs worth without a hospital to train in?" zero, and the programs go tits up... no other hospital in town will have them nor does ou want any direct competition for residents at the other hospitals (i.e. st. francis, st. johns or hillcrest) where ou has their medicine, psych, ob, peds, fp and surgery programs... all of the ou residencies in tulsa fill with a lot of osu DO grads... the one thing the ou programs have had over the osu programs is access to the other private hospitals... and the last thing ou wants now is to have to compete on site with osu for residents... ou will stand in the way of any of those programs trying to move into any of the other local hospitals...
the only answer is for osu to cough up the cash (which is already spent and they dont have) or the state to buy the damn thing and give it to osu outright... will either of those happen? one of them had better or osu/trmc is screwed...
I part of the TRMC/Ardent deal was that part/all of indigent population was going to be "diverted" away from Hillcrest, making it more profitable.
So, what now, Bruno? Why won't the legislature create a public hospital here? Now would be time. The State will have several hundred million left over this year. How much would it cost to create and dower a public hospital?
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by jne
"osu got enough money to fund their teaching program but decided to use it to expand the med school and get some capital improvements"
Expand the Residency program you mean?
Capital improvement - whats the hospital worth to OSU if they don't have the facilities necessary to train residents?
I'm hearing that Ardent has a similar arrangement with OU. The reason the legislature stepped in is because the school is needed to supply new physicians for the state, particularly in rural areas. That still has to be the priority. It may get worse before it gets better.
no, i meant med school... the residencies are operated by departments of the osu medical school and the money was funneled into the departments within medical school... the capital improvements went to the departments themselves, for equipment, for med school facilities and some into the hospital... they did not offset ardent's costs/losses, which was ardent's point from the beginning...
the only interaction ardent has with ou is at hillcrest, thats a completely different arrangement... trmc is a money pit and has been turned into the de facto public hospital... ardent wants no part of it... "whats the hospital worth to OSU if they don't have the facilities necessary to train residents?" zero, but the better question is "what are the residency programs worth without a hospital to train in?" zero, and the programs go tits up... no other hospital in town will have them nor does ou want any direct competition for residents at the other hospitals (i.e. st. francis, st. johns or hillcrest) where ou has their medicine, psych, ob, peds, fp and surgery programs... all of the ou residencies in tulsa fill with a lot of osu DO grads... the one thing the ou programs have had over the osu programs is access to the other private hospitals... and the last thing ou wants now is to have to compete on site with osu for residents... ou will stand in the way of any of those programs trying to move into any of the other local hospitals...
the only answer is for osu to cough up the cash (which is already spent and they dont have) or the state to buy the damn thing and give it to osu outright... will either of those happen? one of them had better or osu/trmc is screwed...
I think the medical school departments ARE the hospital departments.
quote:
Originally posted by jne
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by jne
"osu got enough money to fund their teaching program but decided to use it to expand the med school and get some capital improvements"
Expand the Residency program you mean?
Capital improvement - whats the hospital worth to OSU if they don't have the facilities necessary to train residents?
I'm hearing that Ardent has a similar arrangement with OU. The reason the legislature stepped in is because the school is needed to supply new physicians for the state, particularly in rural areas. That still has to be the priority. It may get worse before it gets better.
no, i meant med school... the residencies are operated by departments of the osu medical school and the money was funneled into the departments within medical school... the capital improvements went to the departments themselves, for equipment, for med school facilities and some into the hospital... they did not offset ardent's costs/losses, which was ardent's point from the beginning...
the only interaction ardent has with ou is at hillcrest, thats a completely different arrangement... trmc is a money pit and has been turned into the de facto public hospital... ardent wants no part of it... "whats the hospital worth to OSU if they don't have the facilities necessary to train residents?" zero, but the better question is "what are the residency programs worth without a hospital to train in?" zero, and the programs go tits up... no other hospital in town will have them nor does ou want any direct competition for residents at the other hospitals (i.e. st. francis, st. johns or hillcrest) where ou has their medicine, psych, ob, peds, fp and surgery programs... all of the ou residencies in tulsa fill with a lot of osu DO grads... the one thing the ou programs have had over the osu programs is access to the other private hospitals... and the last thing ou wants now is to have to compete on site with osu for residents... ou will stand in the way of any of those programs trying to move into any of the other local hospitals...
the only answer is for osu to cough up the cash (which is already spent and they dont have) or the state to buy the damn thing and give it to osu outright... will either of those happen? one of them had better or osu/trmc is screwed...
I think the medical school departments ARE the hospital departments.
not necessarily, you can get credentialed and have privileges at the hospital (thus being a member of particular section/department at trmc itself) and have nothing to do with the residents or medical school...
Editor of the Oklahoman on OSU Med
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1111406010/bclid1111621425/bctid1203072006
Ardent proposes a deal where they donate the OSU Medical Center to the OSU Medical Authority and then agree to run the hospital as a teaching hospital for ten years.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080105_1_A1_ISZEW81327
Starts out good. Kinda wish ardent would leave the hospital to OSU altogether.
Just part of the many reasons health care in America is sick.
I was wondering if the land is worth more than the building and if the city might buy the hospital, level it, merge it into
that already weird parking garage for the Areema.
Hopefully the Mayo Clinic, MD Anderson, Cleveland Clinic, National Jewish etc. will jump into the mess, play the white knight and save the day. Right.
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
i said two years ago when ardent bought out hillcrest that this would never last... the state/fed financial package for the hospital was bull**** and osu was skimming way too much off the top... so now, it is done... ardent is through subsidizing the osu residency programs... no other hospital in town will touch these programs with a ten foot pole...
the med school will be fine, except it won't have a hospital, but other than that it'll be aces (just like ou tulsa- med school sans hospital)... but, the residency programs are doomed...
someone should call mr pickens and ask him to buy trmc from ardent en toto... problem is, the state has never shown their willing to give enough money to fund a public hospital and they won't start now... so even if it is purchased for osu, the recurring costs would never get funded... the state should have given us a real public hospital a long time ago...
hess makes it sound like they can work this out, no freaking way.... truth is, this is only going to change if osu coughs up the cash... cant blame ardent, there a private company providing an unreimbursed public service- i wouldnt do it either...
somebody get the keys... start the bus...
"Hospital's program in jeopardy
By CURTIS KILLMAN World Staff Writer
9/22/2007
Ardent announces it is ending the agreement that provides medical resident training at the OSU Medical Center.
Ardent Health Services, citing a contract breach, said Friday it was terminating an agreement that provides for the medical resident training program at the Oklahoma State University Medical Center in Tulsa.
Ardent officials say the agreement breach, which stems from a funding dispute, forced them to initiate the contract termination process, which takes up to two years to complete.
The move comes 16 months after hospital and university officials signed a 50-year agreement designed to put the teaching program on stable financial ground.
"There are significant challenges with any teaching hospital, but we must have a true partnership to make this work and to date, that has not materialized," said Earl Denning, president and CEO for Ardent Health Services - Oklahoma Division. Ardent owns the former Tulsa Regional Medical Center.
An OSU official said he was disappointed Ardent has opted to terminate the contract, and expressed concerns about the future of the program, especially as the university prepares to recruit new
physicians for fall 2008.
"While this current circumstance obviously means the program is at some risk, we remain committed to seeking a long-term solution for our residency program," said James Hess, chief operating officer and vice president for Health Care Administration for OSU Medical Center in Tulsa.
The hospital, 744 W. Ninth St., has 132 residents from the OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine.
The medical resident program has been credited with turning out many doctors over the years, with many working in rural and underserved areas of the state. The contract termination could hurt the university's ability to attract physicians to the residency program, Hess said.
"I'm certain it will have an impact on the recruiting effort," he said. "It's difficult to say what impact at this point."
About 35 to 36 resident physicians come to the program each year, Hess said.
At issue are two sources of funding tied to the hospital, one for federally matched funds appropriated by the Oklahoma Health Care Authority and another $20 million appropriated by the state Legislature.
Ardent officials claim the company is entitled to receive all of about $6.5 million in federally matched funds allocated to OSU by the Oklahoma Health Care Authority.
"It's difficult to have a sense of partnership when $6.5 million is diverted from our hospital's control -- a hospital that is crucial to the underserved, as well as physician training," Denning said.
But OSU officials dispute Ardent's claim to all of the OHCA funds and instead point to an offer to split the funds with the hospital as it has in the past.
Ardent in June sued the Oklahoma Health Care Authority in federal court over the allocation of the funds.
The OHCA funding dispute in turn triggered a request by Ardent that it be given a portion of the $20 million appropriated by the Legislature.
The OSU Medical Authority, which oversees use of the legislative funds, has allocated $10.6 million of the $20 million for a variety of capital items.
"We were counting on that $6.5 million," Denning said. "And all of a sudden it's gone, and so we're saying, 'Wait a minute; if you are going to take that money then I want some of the $10.6 million in underwriting some of the expenses that I am paying out of my pocket for your teaching program.' "
Said Hess, regarding the request: "The university has felt that the Legislature and governor's office in approving the legislation, we believe it was their intent that the money be used for capital improvements at the facility, not for operations. Ardent would desire the use of the funds otherwise."
Denning said it was "shame that this has all happened," referring to the funding dispute.
"I understand and appreciate the role of the teaching program," he said. "But we are paying out of our own pockets $13 million a year to support this program."
"Now we're in the hole $19.5 million, and we can't continue down that road, and we won't continue down that road," Denning said.
A spokeswoman for the Oklahoma Health Care Authority defended the agency's decision to give all of the $6.5 million in funds from the Indirect Medical Education program to OSU. The program is similar to one with the University of Oklahoma College of Medicine and "within the federal and state policies," agency spokeswoman Jo Kilgore said.
"Payments for the IME program are made under an approved federal / state Medicaid plan," a statement from Kilgore said. "The plan authorizes the agency to make payments to each university as part of the joint venture between the operator of the hospital and the medical school."
Both Hess and Denning said they will continue to explore their options.
"There is some time available to seek solutions, and we'll be in the process of exploring those with our legislative partners," Hess said.
"An instability in the teaching program in the residency training program could have long-term implications in the availability of physicians in rural and underserved Oklahoma," Hess said.
A state senator who last month intervened in the dispute to try to work out a deal between the two entities said he was concerned about the termination of the agreement.
"I am very disappointed that the folks at the College of Medicine and Ardent aren't doing a better job of working well together," said Sen. Mike Mazzei, R-Tulsa.
"If they don't resolve their differences, the ramifications for both organizations aren't good," Mazzei said. "I'm mostly concerned for the medical residents and students who are once again faced with uncertainties after something pretty historic was done to help secure the medical school's training facilities future."
Oklahoma State University Medical Center: A teaching hospital
Oklahoma State University Medical Center, formerly Tulsa Regional Medical Center, has served as the teaching hospital for OSU's College of Osteopathic Medicine for more than 30 years. Here is a recent timeline of events involving the hospital:
May 11, 2004: Ardent Health Services of Nashville, Tenn., purchases Hillcrest Healthcare System, including TRMC, 744 W. Ninth St.
July 2005: Nine members are named to a joint commission led by Republican Rep. Chris Benge and Democratic Sen. Tom Adelson, both of Tulsa, to study the TRMC-OSU issue. The commission issues a report in December and eventually hires consultants to examine the situation.
April 2006: After evaluating several options, Merrill Lynch analysts release a report recommending a 50-year Academic Affiliation Agreement between the OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine and TRMC.
May 5, 2006: Officials from the OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine and TRMC sign the Academic Affiliation Agreement.
June 7, 2006: Gov. Brad Henry signs the Oklahoma State University Medical Authority Act (Senate Bill 1771), creating the Oklahoma State University Medical Center Public Trust and Authority, and appropriating $40 million to fund improvements at Tulsa Regional Medical Center over five years.
Sept. 26, 2006: Henry convenes the first meeting of the OSU Medical Authority.
Nov. 2, 2006: Tulsa Regional Medical Center becomes Oklahoma State University Medical Center.
Jan. 25, 2007: OSU Medical Authority approves $10.6 million in phase I capital improvement projects for the OSU Medical Center. Projects, scheduled for completion by July 2008, include enhancements and/or expansions to residency program space, Labor & Delivery / neonatal ICU, and operating rooms, and the emergency department.
June : Ardent sues the Oklahoma Health Care Authority in federal court over the allocation of federal funding for medical education.
July 12: Ardent tells the OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine it wants $6.5 million the medical school has received from the state to go toward offsetting costs associated with the residency program.
Aug. 13: Ardent notifies the College of Osteopathic Medicine of the termination of the Academic Affiliation Agreement, but later withdraws the termination letter, providing an additional 30 days to reach a solution.
Sept. 14: OSU's governing board votes to have Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson represent OSU in the contract dispute.
Sept. 21: Ardent announces it is terminating the Academic Affiliation Agreement."
guess we now know why Ardent's President and CEO David Vandewater was flying in almost weekly on a private plane to Tulsa from Nashville!.......
Let's not forget they were trying to work with Aggies and not Meddies....
jester
New hope with Cargil out?
Toldja osu sucks.
[:D]
Sounds like something good or more stable is getting ready to happen at OSU med. Their M & E department called the other day and needed an immediate update on a capital improvement proposal which has been in limbo for the better part of three years.
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
"OD"? Are you referring to osteopathic physicians? D.O.? By the way, what "hard time" are you referring to? The people that I know that went to med school there are not having any "hard time."
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
I think most of us know that you meant D.O. - O.D. is an optometrist
quote:
Originally posted by jne
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
I think most of us know that you meant D.O. - O.D. is an opthalmologist
Nope, O.D. is an optomotrist.
quote:
Originally posted by jne
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
I think most of us know that you meant D.O. - O.D. is an opthalmologist
JNE- is that the dancing baby from Ally McBeal?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
Cannon, this pre-dates you in Tulsa, but there was a time in Tulsa when D.O.'s were pretty much segregated from the M.D. community. The OSU hospital used to be called "Oklahoma Osteopathic Hospital".
Now they are working in the same clinics along with MD's, PA's, and NP's and so far as I know can have priveledges at any of the other area hospitals.
I meant D.O., sorry.
And I was implying that DO's do not get the same respect MDs do and are frequently looked down upon by Mds. Now that their earnings are hurting in any way. But, as I understand it, the bennefit of DO is the more extensive hands on approach - which could be lost if they don't have a hospital.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
Cannon, this pre-dates you in Tulsa, but there was a time in Tulsa when D.O.'s were pretty much segregated from the M.D. community. The OSU hospital used to be called "Oklahoma Osteopathic Hospital".
Now they are working in the same clinics along with MD's, PA's, and NP's and so far as I know can have priveledges at any of the other area hospitals.
Conan is absolutely correct. Whatever stigma that once was attached to being a D.O. in the past has markedly eroded both within the medical profession and with the public in general.
Well, not according to the MDs I talk to who openly snub their noses at the mention of DO. I'm not talking about kids my age, but family members and family friends who are of the age that they are running hospitals. This number includes several MDs at the very top of local hospitals.
I'm not saying it effects their hiring or treatment, I never asked. But there is still a some animosity towards DOs for sure. Not that I care as my basis for the understanding of what each actually learns is just what I've "heard."
That aside, from what I know about DOs losing the practical element of the education would be nearly fatal.
What do you call an MD who graduates at the bottom of his class? Doctor. [;)]
I'm sure there are M.D.'s who feel their degree is superior to a D.O. I have to admit, I still have a paradigm about DO's not being equal, though I can't give you any specific reason, it's just ingrained in me from the old "medical segregation" days. [;)]
Many of the family medicine groups sponsored by hospitals are allowing DO's, PA's NP's, and MD's to practice shoulder-to-shoulder.
They do have rounds in the hospitals as well. When I was hospitalized for the chest pain incident a couple of years ago at SJMC (turned out to be GIRD) I was seen by a DO on rounds once I had been moved to a room.
None of that would have happened 20 years ago. There will always be a snobbery between MD and DO, but there's been more respect given to DO's in the last 20 years, at least in the Tulsa medical community.
Also of note, these days there's also much more referral going on between MD's and chiropractors, including neurologists and spine specialists.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Well, not according to the MDs I talk to who openly snub their noses at the mention of DO. I'm not talking about kids my age, but family members and family friends who are of the age that they are running hospitals. This number includes several MDs at the very top of local hospitals.
I'm not saying it effects their hiring or treatment, I never asked. But there is still a some animosity towards DOs for sure. Not that I care as my basis for the understanding of what each actually learns is just what I've "heard."
That aside, from what I know about DOs losing the practical element of the education would be nearly fatal.
I certainly cannot dispute the information you have. Let's just say the information I have about D.O. vs. M.D. and any pervasive stigma/animosity thereto, and the general experiences at OSU-COM are from a personal level. I think the hospital is an integral part of the medical school experience, but it is only a "part." To be honest, my real concern about losing the hospital is the affect it will have on the delivery of health care to those in need.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
Cannon, this pre-dates you in Tulsa, but there was a time in Tulsa when D.O.'s were pretty much segregated from the M.D. community. The OSU hospital used to be called "Oklahoma Osteopathic Hospital".
Now they are working in the same clinics along with MD's, PA's, and NP's and so far as I know can have priveledges at any of the other area hospitals.
Conan is absolutely correct. Whatever stigma that once was attached to being a D.O. in the past has markedly eroded both within the medical profession and with the public in general.
it all depends on where they did their residency and if they are board certified or not.
if they are not board certified by the ACTUAL governing medical body (i.e. AAFP, AAP, ABPS) for their specialty, stay away... and watch out for bogus abbreviations that appear to be the board but are some knock-off... DOs can only sit for the actual governing boards if they go to an ACGME accredited residency... if they went to residency at an osteopathic training program, i'd be highly suspect...
they do not have more hands-on experience...
and the fact remains, the admisson criteria for do med schools are lower than those of md programs.
I'm a big DO fan. Just because MD's snub their nose doesn't mean anything. East coast people snub their nose at okies too and we know they aren't any better.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by jne
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
I think most of us know that you meant D.O. - O.D. is an opthalmologist
Nope, O.D. is an optomotrist.
LOL -- whoops that's what I meant. I made the distinction correctly in my head as I typed diferrently.
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
Cannon, this pre-dates you in Tulsa, but there was a time in Tulsa when D.O.'s were pretty much segregated from the M.D. community. The OSU hospital used to be called "Oklahoma Osteopathic Hospital".
Now they are working in the same clinics along with MD's, PA's, and NP's and so far as I know can have priveledges at any of the other area hospitals.
Conan is absolutely correct. Whatever stigma that once was attached to being a D.O. in the past has markedly eroded both within the medical profession and with the public in general.
it all depends on where they did their residency and if they are board certified or not.
if they are not board certified by the ACTUAL governing medical body (i.e. AAFP, AAP, ABPS) for their specialty, stay away... and watch out for bogus abbreviations that appear to be the board but are some knock-off... DOs can only sit for the actual governing boards if they go to an ACGME accredited residency... if they went to residency at an osteopathic training program, i'd be highly suspect...
they do not have more hands-on experience...
and the fact remains, the admisson criteria for do med schools are lower than those of md programs.
The MD vs. DO rivalry runs deep and is on both sides. DO's had to fight hard for a long time to get the respect they have now.
Wouldn't DO's technically have more 'hands-on' experience considering OMT? The philosophy is supposed to be about 'hands-on' medicine.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by jne
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
I think most of us know that you meant D.O. - O.D. is an opthalmologist
JNE- is that the dancing baby from Ally McBeal?
Prefiero decir Baby Cha-Cha.
Yes it is, however, I didn't come across it until its internet fame:)
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
Cannon, this pre-dates you in Tulsa, but there was a time in Tulsa when D.O.'s were pretty much segregated from the M.D. community. The OSU hospital used to be called "Oklahoma Osteopathic Hospital".
Now they are working in the same clinics along with MD's, PA's, and NP's and so far as I know can have priveledges at any of the other area hospitals.
Conan is absolutely correct. Whatever stigma that once was attached to being a D.O. in the past has markedly eroded both within the medical profession and with the public in general.
it all depends on where they did their residency and if they are board certified or not.
if they are not board certified by the ACTUAL governing medical body (i.e. AAFP, AAP, ABPS) for their specialty, stay away... and watch out for bogus abbreviations that appear to be the board but are some knock-off... DOs can only sit for the actual governing boards if they go to an ACGME accredited residency... if they went to residency at an osteopathic training program, i'd be highly suspect...
they do not have more hands-on experience...
and the fact remains, the admisson criteria for do med schools are lower than those of md programs.
Considering a field of about 1200 applicants got culled down to 90 with the current class at OSU, I'd say that's pretty tough entrance requirements. They still require an excellent MCAT along with exceptional undergrad GPA.
Hey, I'm not pimping for either DO or MD, just saying an idiot can't get admitted to OSU's medical program any easier than they can OU's, nor are DO programs soley filled with MD program rejects.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
Cannon, this pre-dates you in Tulsa, but there was a time in Tulsa when D.O.'s were pretty much segregated from the M.D. community. The OSU hospital used to be called "Oklahoma Osteopathic Hospital".
Now they are working in the same clinics along with MD's, PA's, and NP's and so far as I know can have priveledges at any of the other area hospitals.
Conan is absolutely correct. Whatever stigma that once was attached to being a D.O. in the past has markedly eroded both within the medical profession and with the public in general.
it all depends on where they did their residency and if they are board certified or not.
if they are not board certified by the ACTUAL governing medical body (i.e. AAFP, AAP, ABPS) for their specialty, stay away... and watch out for bogus abbreviations that appear to be the board but are some knock-off... DOs can only sit for the actual governing boards if they go to an ACGME accredited residency... if they went to residency at an osteopathic training program, i'd be highly suspect...
they do not have more hands-on experience...
and the fact remains, the admisson criteria for do med schools are lower than those of md programs.
Considering a field of about 1200 applicants got culled down to 90 with the current class at OSU, I'd say that's pretty tough entrance requirements. They still require an excellent MCAT along with exceptional undergrad GPA.
Hey, I'm not pimping for either DO or MD, just saying an idiot can't get admitted to OSU's medical program any easier than they can OU's, nor are DO programs soley filled with MD program rejects.
Agreed, except that an idiot can't get admitted.
I know more idiot MD's and student MD's than I know idiot DO's, but thats just because the MD's are more prevelant.
quote:
Originally posted by jne
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
Cannon, this pre-dates you in Tulsa, but there was a time in Tulsa when D.O.'s were pretty much segregated from the M.D. community. The OSU hospital used to be called "Oklahoma Osteopathic Hospital".
Now they are working in the same clinics along with MD's, PA's, and NP's and so far as I know can have priveledges at any of the other area hospitals.
Conan is absolutely correct. Whatever stigma that once was attached to being a D.O. in the past has markedly eroded both within the medical profession and with the public in general.
it all depends on where they did their residency and if they are board certified or not.
if they are not board certified by the ACTUAL governing medical body (i.e. AAFP, AAP, ABPS) for their specialty, stay away... and watch out for bogus abbreviations that appear to be the board but are some knock-off... DOs can only sit for the actual governing boards if they go to an ACGME accredited residency... if they went to residency at an osteopathic training program, i'd be highly suspect...
they do not have more hands-on experience...
and the fact remains, the admisson criteria for do med schools are lower than those of md programs.
The MD vs. DO rivalry runs deep and is on both sides. DO's had to fight hard for a long time to get the respect they have now.
Wouldn't DO's technically have more 'hands-on' experience considering OMT? The philosophy is supposed to be about 'hands-on' medicine.
omt? for back pain? sure, go nuts... for my asthma or diabetes or allergies or ear infection or any other illness? no thanks... it simly has no other proven medical benefit... and cranial therapy? that is completely wacko...
2,000 years of medicine...
We used to eat roots for wellness. Then we prayed for health. Then we did blood-letting. Then we took a pill.
Now we are back to eating roots. Prayer is around the corner and blood-letting not far behind.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I hope so. OD's have a hard enough time as it is. Couple that with the OU dominant medical community in Tulsa and an OSU-OD will have real troubles. Then throw in the fact that the entire point of OD is to be knowledgeable about many faucets of the patient (read: nearly impossible without actual patients to look at) and the OD school is in serious trouble sans hospital.
Cannon, this pre-dates you in Tulsa, but there was a time in Tulsa when D.O.'s were pretty much segregated from the M.D. community. The OSU hospital used to be called "Oklahoma Osteopathic Hospital".
Now they are working in the same clinics along with MD's, PA's, and NP's and so far as I know can have priveledges at any of the other area hospitals.
Conan is absolutely correct. Whatever stigma that once was attached to being a D.O. in the past has markedly eroded both within the medical profession and with the public in general.
it all depends on where they did their residency and if they are board certified or not.
if they are not board certified by the ACTUAL governing medical body (i.e. AAFP, AAP, ABPS) for their specialty, stay away... and watch out for bogus abbreviations that appear to be the board but are some knock-off... DOs can only sit for the actual governing boards if they go to an ACGME accredited residency... if they went to residency at an osteopathic training program, i'd be highly suspect...
they do not have more hands-on experience...
and the fact remains, the admisson criteria for do med schools are lower than those of md programs.
Considering a field of about 1200 applicants got culled down to 90 with the current class at OSU, I'd say that's pretty tough entrance requirements. They still require an excellent MCAT along with exceptional undergrad GPA.
Hey, I'm not pimping for either DO or MD, just saying an idiot can't get admitted to OSU's medical program any easier than they can OU's, nor are DO programs soley filled with MD program rejects.
except, that the minimum mcat scores and gpa required for admission ARE lower.
i knew several people in college who were "pre-med" but if they did not have the gpa or mcat score, they'd apply to osu and then maybe dental school...
http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html
i mean after all, who would not want to be a part of this foundation:
Andrew Taylor Still, MD (1828-1917) originally expressed the principles of osteopathy in 1874, when medical science was in its infancy. A medical doctor, Still believed that diseases were caused by mechanical interference with nerve and blood supply and were curable by manipulation of "deranged, displaced bones, nerves, muscles—removing all obstructions—thereby setting the machinery of life moving." His autobiography states that he could "shake a child and stop scarlet fever, croup, diphtheria, and cure whooping cough in three days by a wring of its neck." this is my favorite chapter-
still's autobiography (//%22http://www.meridianinstitute.com/eamt/files/still3/st3ch7.html%22)
but more importantly, as with MDs, there are both good and bad DOs... but if any physician is not board certified by their specialty's governing body, it means one of two things that A) they either did not go to an accredited residency training program for their specialty or B)went there and could not pass their boards... any practitioner in this category should be considered highly suspect...
Bruno wrote "I mean after all, who would not want to be a part of this foundation..."
I know lots of D.O.s who are proud of the work they do--even though they might not measure up to your standards.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Bruno wrote "I mean after all, who would not want to be a part of this foundation..."
I know lots of D.O.s who are proud of the work they do--even though they might not measure up to your standards.
i already stated that i believe there are plenty of DOs out there who are great docs...
the reference was meant as an historical anecdote... and highlight the fact that OMT is questionable in its origins and not scientifically proven... it was not meant to be offensive... i have MDs in my family and i get a little pissed every time i hear someone talk about how DOs "treat the whole person", as if MDs dont... that sort of crap is ****ing ludicrous and has been put out there as propaganda by the AOA...
your right, i have high standards when it comes to me and my family's medical care, i want the smartest doctor with the best credentials available and i dont care if they are an MD or a DO... the type of doctor does not matter nearly as much as their board certification status, residency training and clinical experience...
a doctor (DO or MD) has to be boarded by one of these boards (//%22http://www.abms.org/About_ABMS/member_boards.aspx%22) to guarantee they meet a set minimum criteria for training and expertise in their field and required continuing education and recertification... if it is not one of these boards, they are not worth seeing... just ask kanye's mom...
They have to be boarded? Is that like sending a doctor to the kennel?
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Bruno wrote "I mean after all, who would not want to be a part of this foundation..."
I know lots of D.O.s who are proud of the work they do--even though they might not measure up to your standards.
i already stated that i believe there are plenty of DOs out there who are great docs...
the reference was meant as an historical anecdote... and highlight the fact that OMT is questionable in its origins and not scientifically proven... it was not meant to be offensive... i have MDs in my family and i get a little pissed every time i hear someone talk about how DOs "treat the whole person", as if MDs dont... that sort of crap is ****ing ludicrous and has been put out there as propaganda by the AOA...
your right, i have high standards when it comes to me and my family's medical care, i want the smartest doctor with the best credentials available and i dont care if they are an MD or a DO... the type of doctor does not matter nearly as much as their board certification status, residency training and clinical experience...
a doctor (DO or MD) has to be boarded by one of these boards (//%22http://www.abms.org/About_ABMS/member_boards.aspx%22) to guarantee they meet a set minimum criteria for training and expertise in their field and required continuing education and recertification... if it is not one of these boards, they are not worth seeing... just ask kanye's mom...
I pretty well agree with that.
As far the OMT goes - A LOT of practical medicine is not scientifically proven.
No, and I don't believe throwing a pill at every ailment is always the best solution.
Bruno wrote: "I already stated that i believe there are plenty of DOs out there who are great docs..."
I must have missed that statement in this thread. Where before the previous post did you state you "believe plenty of DOs out there who are great docs." All I was picking up was snide comments about D.O. training, how comparatively D.O.s were not as intelligent as M.D.s, and your personal opinions as to the usefulness of OMT.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Bruno wrote: "I already stated that i believe there are plenty of DOs out there who are great docs..."
I must have missed that statement in this thread. Where before the previous post did you state you "believe plenty of DOs out there who are great docs." All I was picking up was snide comments about D.O. training, how comparatively D.O.s were not as intelligent as M.D.s, and your personal opinions as to the usefulness of OMT.
go back and read the posts again... i clearly state, it all depends on where they did their training and if they are boarded... i also stated that there are good and bad docs of either variety and the most important factor was their board certification...
i never said they were not as intelligent, i showed you that they have lower avg GPAs and mcat scores- you correlated that with intelligence...
the fact that there has never been a randomized, double blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial that demonstrated the efficacy of OMT is a little more than my personal opinion...
Whatever Bruno.
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Bruno wrote: "I already stated that i believe there are plenty of DOs out there who are great docs..."
I must have missed that statement in this thread. Where before the previous post did you state you "believe plenty of DOs out there who are great docs." All I was picking up was snide comments about D.O. training, how comparatively D.O.s were not as intelligent as M.D.s, and your personal opinions as to the usefulness of OMT.
go back and read the posts again... i clearly state, it all depends on where they did their training and if they are boarded... i also stated that there are good and bad docs of either variety and the most important factor was their board certification...
i never said they were not as intelligent, i showed you that they have lower avg GPAs and mcat scores- you correlated that with intelligence...
the fact that there has never been a randomized, double blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial that demonstrated the efficacy of OMT is a little more than my personal opinion...
Bruno, I hear estimates everywhere from 5% percent to 50% of medical practice to actually be evidence-based. And these days, most of the clinical research is highly biased. Who would have any stock in funding or supporting the findings of research that proves the efficacy of something you can't reap huge profits on?
quote:
Originally posted by jne
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Bruno wrote: "I already stated that i believe there are plenty of DOs out there who are great docs..."
I must have missed that statement in this thread. Where before the previous post did you state you "believe plenty of DOs out there who are great docs." All I was picking up was snide comments about D.O. training, how comparatively D.O.s were not as intelligent as M.D.s, and your personal opinions as to the usefulness of OMT.
go back and read the posts again... i clearly state, it all depends on where they did their training and if they are boarded... i also stated that there are good and bad docs of either variety and the most important factor was their board certification...
i never said they were not as intelligent, i showed you that they have lower avg GPAs and mcat scores- you correlated that with intelligence...
the fact that there has never been a randomized, double blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial that demonstrated the efficacy of OMT is a little more than my personal opinion...
Bruno, I hear estimates everywhere from 5% percent to 50% of medical practice to actually be evidence-based. And these days, most of the clinical research is highly biased. Who would have any stock in funding or supporting the findings of research that proves the efficacy of something you can't reap huge profits on?
i would think that practitioners of omt (especially DO academia) would have a vested interest in proving the efficacy of omt as an alternative therapy...
the interesting thing about omt and omm is that the studies i've seen reveal that about only 5% of practicing DO physicians continue to use these techniques...
omt and omm are controversial to say the least...
most of those low "evidence based medicine" numbers occur when any medication is used in off-label manner... simply because a drug is not approved by the fda for a particular patient does not mean that there is not good data that supports the use of the drug for that indication...
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Whatever Bruno.
that, is a great retort...
for the past 20 years, the differences in the education of MDs and DOs have almost been eliminated... omt/omm is really the only difference and most DOs dont even use it in practice...
the MD/DO bias is historical (or should be at this point)... it is just as ridiculous to say that "MDs are smarter" as it i to say that "DOs are more thorough" or "nicer"... its bull****, it varies from doctor to doctor... and the only thing you can rely on as an objective measure of a physician's basic fund of knowledge and continued education is their ABMS status... but even then, they may be an a**hole or provide really ****ty care (MD or DO)...
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Whatever Bruno.
that, is a great retort...
Thank you. I reserve use of that response when people either back pedal or talk out of their rear. [}:)]
In any case, for what it is worth I agree with the substance of your last post.
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Whatever Bruno.
that, is a great retort...
Thank you. I reserve use of that response when people either back pedal or talk out of their rear. [}:)]
neither of which i did.
I stumbled across this website this evening and since I didn't see anyone who actually worked at OSUMC/TRMC post here, thought I'd add my two cents.
I worked for TRMC for over a decade before those wonderful people at ardent decided to cut our entire department (we weren't the only ones to go) and sent the work out of the country. To say ardent is not a good company to work for is the understatement of the century and I would never set foot as a patient in any hospital they own. I've worked in many hospitals in this area, and all but one hospital in Tulsa, so yes I do have a basis for comparison.
Ardent bought out the Hillcrest system with only their wallets in mind, typical corporation. At that time of the buyout Hillcrest Medical Center (not the whole hospital system) was about two pay periods away from bankruptcy. TRMC was actually the only hospital in the system making a profit (go figure). When ardent decided to change the name of TRMC to OSUMC, they spent a small fortune on a wonderful party for the media and employees and graphic design (I heard one of the residents mention - nice to see where the 40 million is going sarcastically during lunch one day, so it wasn't just me). They spent no telling how much on redecorating, ("we're going to put a mural in this hallway" - you get the idea), etc., the appearance type stuff and very little on patient care or anything that actually mattered, besides putting many people out of work. They even managed to eliminate the entire volunteer department for several months until they could fine new volunteers and vendors to their liking. In the meantime, SFH, SJMC, SC, and other hospitals are sweating it out hoping TRMC doesn't close their doors because, god forbid, they should actually have to treat indigent patients such as homeless, AIDS patients, welfare mamas, drug addicts, immigrants or anybody else they think might dirty up their nice little hospitals. A small bit of sunshine - ardent threw Marty Bonick out overnight literally, so I guess now he knows how it feels for everybody else.
So as far as ardent losing their money, great!!, I hope they lose it all, I hope I hear of them filing for bankruptcy soon, but most of all I hope they sell TRMC SOON so those med students, interns and residents can continue their work.
Deal is done.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080401_1__Oklah50377