(http://tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2007/riverwalk2.jpg)
quote:
Waterfront property: Jenks project part 2
It took two years of delays and extra planning, but work on the second phase of RiverWalk Crossing is set to begin within days.
Lots of construction is involved -- not only for the planned 125,000 square feet of retail and office space to complement the existing 110,000 square feet, but developer Jerry Gordon said he's also building a 207-unit luxury apartment complex and a 50-unit, six-story condominium building in the same area.
Gordon said the multiple living options aren't a gamble for the area. Instead, they're in demand.
"We've had a lot of requests from people wanting to live here," he said.
Earth-moving for the $50 million project begins next week, with construction to follow in six weeks. The retail space and apartment complex, dubbed RiverWalk Village, should be ready for its first tenants by June. Construction on the condos, called RiverWalk Lofts, should begin in three months.
Much of the delay arose from funding issues, as original financier Stillwater National Bank dropped out of the project, only to be replaced in February by American National
Bank of Texas.
After that, Gordon decided to refine the plans. Though he initially intended to almost exclusively seek new retail tenants for phase two, many calls from interested restaurants changed his mind.
"RiverWalk really became known as an entertainment venue, so we've been seeking the same mix of restaurants and retail we've had in the first phase," he said.
Gordon said he has signed multiple letters of intent but hasn't finalized any leases yet. Though he said he could not name specific tenants, he said he's courting smaller stores, a nightclub, a sporting goods store and a candy store, among others. The national restaurants include a steakhouse, a barbecue place and a sandwich shop.
The area will feature an additional amphitheater, allowing multiple events simultaneously, Gordon said. But unlike the existing amphitheater, the new one has a theatrical design with a backdrop and dressing rooms.
Though some loft apartments were originally planned above the new retail buildings, the plans have now shifted back to upstairs offices, much like phase one.
The original offices did take longer to fill than the retail space, but Gordon said demand continued to build even after they were full.
"It was a show-and-tell deal," he said. "People didn't want to come in until they could see what it could do."
The retail and office buildings in phase two will share the same look as the existing space, but they'll consist of five smaller buildings. Gordon said he heard many complaints from people having to walk to reach the entrances of the long buildings in phase one.
Gordon has contracted the Oklahoma City office of Sperry Van Ness for retail and office leasing, and the company has moved a full-time associate to the RiverWalk Crossing offices.
The planned loft apartments moved north to their own five buildings and grew almost tenfold from 22 to 207. Gordon said the three- and four-story buildings will share some of the same natural colors as the retail areas but sport other hues as well as numerous balconies and a vertical orientation.
"It'll have a village-effect feel to it," he said.
Units in RiverWalk Village will range in size from 866 to 1,337 square feet in one- or two-bedroom floorplans, though Gordon hasn't yet set rental prices.
He said the city of Jenks could use more apartments. "There's not a lot of rental property in Jenks."
Finally, Gordon is planning RiverWalk Lofts in the same area as RiverWalk Village. The 50 condos will share a six-story building. Floors two through six will house 10 condos each, with a parking garage on the first floor.
Unlike the rest of the area, RiverWalk Village will have a unique look.
"It'll be a bit more contemporary in design, with lots of glass and angles," he said. "It's kind of a 'Jetsons' look."
Gordon hopes to sell the condos, which range in size from 1,506 to 2,260 square feet, starting at $250,000. The designs should be finalized within three months.
He has already begun pre-leasing for the condos and apartments.
The village and the lofts will share a clubhouse featuring a business center, media room, meeting rooms and a pool overlooking the river.
As part of phase two, RiverWalk Crossing will gain approximately 2,000 parking spaces, not counting parking for the lofts and the village. Gordon said he's working to purchase two San Francisco-style trolleys to shuttle people from area to area.
He said he's not concerned with a proposal by Rick Huffman, CEO of HCW Development, for a $500 million mixed-use project with retail, residential and office space over 100 acres between the 11th Street and 21st Street bridges on the west side of the Arkansas River.
"If they can pull it off, it'll be a great deal for Jenks and for the RiverWalk area," Gordon said, "though we'll be up and running long before they will."
From:
http://tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=070911_238_E1_hWate57366
Sounds like his plans are now LESS big-box and more dense by far.
The clock is ticking for any development momentum to be left for the Tulsa part of the river.
Jenks will get it's dam.
The Creeks are already pledging $5 million to the river, and can pledge more. The Jenks dam only needs $25 million to get done. And to add another $15 to $20 million to the $220 million River District TIFF in Jenks is easy. The city of Jenks and the Creek Nation will get it done.
Tulsa has already wisely developed most of that part of the river with a some restaurants that ignore the river, a Kum and Go and some gated subdivisions. So there will be a lot of benefit there
Still want to vote no?
quote:
Originally posted by swake
The clock is ticking for any development momentum to be left for the Tulsa part of the river.
Jenks will get it's dam.
The Creeks are already pledging $5 million to the river, and can pledge more. The Jenks dam only needs $25 million to get done. And to add another $15 to $20 million to the $220 million River District TIFF in Jenks is easy. The city of Jenks and the Creek Nation will get it done.
Tulsa has already wisely developed most of that part of the river with a some restaurants that ignore the river, a Kum and Go and some gated subdivisions. So there will be a lot of benefit there
Still want to vote no?
Actually, even more so.
This announcement proves beyond a reasonable doubt that quality development can occur without spending hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money. If it can be done in Jenks, why can't it be done inside the Tulsa city limits?? (Not to get too much off subject, but if memory serves me correctly, it seems that a good part of Tulsa's lack of development is because the River Parks Authority has historically been absolutely anti-development; any truth to that? If so couldn't we save a BUNCH of money by just getting some new commissioners on the River Parks Authority?)
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by swake
The clock is ticking for any development momentum to be left for the Tulsa part of the river.
Jenks will get it's dam.
The Creeks are already pledging $5 million to the river, and can pledge more. The Jenks dam only needs $25 million to get done. And to add another $15 to $20 million to the $220 million River District TIFF in Jenks is easy. The city of Jenks and the Creek Nation will get it done.
Tulsa has already wisely developed most of that part of the river with a some restaurants that ignore the river, a Kum and Go and some gated subdivisions. So there will be a lot of benefit there
Still want to vote no?
Actually, even more so.
This announcement proves beyond a reasonable doubt that quality development can occur without spending hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money. If it can be done in Jenks, why can't it be done inside the Tulsa city limits?? (Not to get too much off subject, but if memory serves me correctly, it seems that a good part of Tulsa's lack of development is because the River Parks Authority has historically been absolutely anti-development; any truth to that? If so couldn't we save a BUNCH of money by just getting some new commissioners on the River Parks Authority?)
It proves without a doubt that developers will go with the path of least resistance and least cost.
That path does not currently run through Tulsa. It runs through cheap pasture land and good ole boy mayors.
If you want that to change, one option - the most available, immediate option - is to vote YES for the river plan.
ON TOPic: This thing looks great. It's a harbinger of things to come along the river banks. Hopefully along the river banks in Tulsa, although if not, certainly in the 'burbs.
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by swake
The clock is ticking for any development momentum to be left for the Tulsa part of the river.
Jenks will get it's dam.
The Creeks are already pledging $5 million to the river, and can pledge more. The Jenks dam only needs $25 million to get done. And to add another $15 to $20 million to the $220 million River District TIFF in Jenks is easy. The city of Jenks and the Creek Nation will get it done.
Tulsa has already wisely developed most of that part of the river with a some restaurants that ignore the river, a Kum and Go and some gated subdivisions. So there will be a lot of benefit there
Still want to vote no?
Actually, even more so.
This announcement proves beyond a reasonable doubt that quality development can occur without spending hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money. If it can be done in Jenks, why can't it be done inside the Tulsa city limits?? (Not to get too much off subject, but if memory serves me correctly, it seems that a good part of Tulsa's lack of development is because the River Parks Authority has historically been absolutely anti-development; any truth to that? If so couldn't we save a BUNCH of money by just getting some new commissioners on the River Parks Authority?)
The RPA is against private development on the park land. Nothing done in Jenks was on park land, it was on unwanted floodplains. Jim Inhoffe gave up prime real estate to pay for Zink Lake and now Tulsa needs it back to be able to develop the west bank. He claims that giving away developable land to build a pool is progress for the river but now we're paying for it later. With interest. Besides, last I checked the planned projects are 70% private funded, the 20% is going to things like trails, lighting and infrastructure which isn't getting built in Jenks either.
There certainly has been public tax money spent in Jenks, and a lot more is about to be spent. Jenks gave infrastructure and half the needed land to Riverwalk Crossing, and there's been something like $20 million spent on the Aquarium and more on the new pedestrian bridge, street and trail projects in the area.
With the TIFF for the River District Jenks is working on something more than a quarter of a BILLION dollars in public money going to these projects.
No tax money in Jenks my donkey.
That about as accurate as the Branson Landing people not wanting any tax money for a "Tulsa Landing" (they want a LOT)
quote:
Originally posted by swake
There certainly has been public tax money spent in Jenks, and a lot more is about to be spent. Jenks gave infrastructure and half the needed land to Riverwalk Crossing, and there's been something like $20 million spent on the Aquarium and more on the new pedestrian bridge, street and trail projects in the area.
With the TIFF for the River District Jenks is working on something more than a quarter of a BILLION dollars in public money going to these projects.
No tax money in Jenks my donkey.
That about as accurate as the Branson Landing people not wanting any tax money for a "Tulsa Landing" (they want a LOT)
True, that means Jenks would be spending as much on 1 mile of riverbanks as tulsa wants to spend from Sand Springs to Jenks.
As I understand it, if the River vote fails, Tulsa Landing will go after a TIFF and then we won't reap any rewards from the river development for years. I'd rather pay up front.
It's a nice looking expansion. Funny that a Tulsa area bank turned them down for the financing. They had to go to out of state? Sad.
I'd them to focus more on the jogging trails.
Waterboy: I know an officer at SNB. As I understand it, the deal would have put them too far invested in that single project. Having all the financing outstanding for Phase I they did not want to over commit as Phase II was moving forward faster than expected. For a regional bank, funding the entire project (which is speculative in nature) would expose them to a concentrated risk.
It is too bad they went out of state, they neglected several other local alternatives... or at least chose not to do business with them for whatever reason.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
There certainly has been public tax money spent in Jenks, and a lot more is about to be spent. Jenks gave infrastructure and half the needed land to Riverwalk Crossing, and there's been something like $20 million spent on the Aquarium and more on the new pedestrian bridge, street and trail projects in the area.
With the TIFF for the River District Jenks is working on something more than a quarter of a BILLION dollars in public money going to these projects.
No tax money in Jenks my donkey.
That about as accurate as the Branson Landing people not wanting any tax money for a "Tulsa Landing" (they want a LOT)
Of course you know very well that neither I nor anyone else said "no" tax money had been spent in Jenks for these projects. I said they have accomplished the river walk development and now Phase II and also the aquarium without spending "Hundreds of Millions of dollars of tax money," a statement that I believe is very much true. Furthermore, whatever tax money they have spent, they have done so without raising any tax rates.
As to the possible TIF in Jenks paying for possibly as much as 220 million of infrastructure in connection with the River District development, again, that does not include an increase in tax rates. Furthermore, in addition to the tax rate hikes we get with the river plan, we are pretty likely to also get our own TIF financing in the event a commercial development arises in Tulsa in connection with the river plan. See Randi Miller's answer to the "Question of the Week" below:
Question of the week
Q: Who will decide which private, for-profit development proposals are constructed on the land along the river targeted for acquisition?
A: Once the river initiative passes, a nine-member River Trust Authority will be formed. The authority would be responsible for entering into negotiations with the property owners of the land under consideration for acquisition. Once it is acquired, the authority has several options. One would be to transfer ownership of the property to the city in which the land is located. That city could then create a tax increment finance (TIF) district, which can help developers cover the tremendous costs of site and infrastructure development. The city could then develop specifications for the development and issue a request for proposals (RFP) that developers could respond to. Once the city and development professionals have reviewed the responses to the RFPs, a developer could be selected and terms and conditions of the development would then be negotiated between the city and the developer.
Randi Miller
County Commission Chairwoman
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by swake
There certainly has been public tax money spent in Jenks, and a lot more is about to be spent. Jenks gave infrastructure and half the needed land to Riverwalk Crossing, and there's been something like $20 million spent on the Aquarium and more on the new pedestrian bridge, street and trail projects in the area.
With the TIFF for the River District Jenks is working on something more than a quarter of a BILLION dollars in public money going to these projects.
No tax money in Jenks my donkey.
That about as accurate as the Branson Landing people not wanting any tax money for a "Tulsa Landing" (they want a LOT)
True, that means Jenks would be spending as much on 1 mile of riverbanks as tulsa wants to spend from Sand Springs to Jenks.
As I understand it, if the River vote fails, Tulsa Landing will go after a TIFF and then we won't reap any rewards from the river development for years. I'd rather pay up front.
Chances are, Tulsa Landing will be going after a TIF even if this vote passes. There is no funding in this for Tulsa Landing. See the quote from Randi Miller in my previous post regarding the possibility of a TIF for developments. The River plan money will only be used to purchase the land and re-sell it to the developer (or so we are being told). When re-sold the money will go back in to the new river authority's hands to do whatever. The city will then be stuck paying for the infrastructure for Tulsa Landing with a TIF or another tax increase.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
It proves without a doubt that developers will go with the path of least resistance and least cost.
That path does not currently run through Tulsa. It runs through cheap pasture land and good ole boy mayors.
If you want that to change, one option - the most available, immediate option - is to vote YES for the river plan.
So your proposed strategy is to incur $280 million of taxes to get around an anti-development River Parks Authority, who, correct me if I'm wrong, will still have full rule over Tulsa's River Parks...?? As Mayor Taylor would say, "That's CRAZY!" ;-)
Hey, whatever gets me pretty pictures of apartments like they have in Jenks.
Krazy like a FOX! [8D]
When will Phase III start? In the fall of 2008?[xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
When will Phase III start? In the fall of 2008?[xx(]
There is no phase 3. phase 2 takes him all the way to 91st.
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
It proves without a doubt that developers will go with the path of least resistance and least cost.
That path does not currently run through Tulsa. It runs through cheap pasture land and good ole boy mayors.
If you want that to change, one option - the most available, immediate option - is to vote YES for the river plan.
So your proposed strategy is to incur $280 million of taxes to get around an anti-development River Parks Authority, who, correct me if I'm wrong, will still have full rule over Tulsa's River Parks...?? As Mayor Taylor would say, "That's CRAZY!" ;-)
I certainly hope they continue to have authority... especially if OUR tax money is being spent... I'd like the Tulsa side of the river to look alot like much of the area east of Lake Shore Drive in Chicago, public areas and parks with a few push-cart vendors.
Besides, is there really any room for private condos/retail/etc between Riverside Drive and the river?!?
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
I'd like the Tulsa side of the river to look alot like much of the area east of Lake Shore Drive in Chicago, public areas and parks with a few push-cart vendors.
Along with the world class museums, skyline, yachts, amusements, professional sports arenas, urbanized river, offices and condos that support that are next to that public area? I love the Lake Shore area of Chicago, but that's like trying to turn a sand bar in the Arkansas into Key West. I'm sure it can be nice, but no need to compare it to one of the most desirable and expensive districts in the United States. Lets keep the goals reasonable.
Unless, of course, you simply meant geared in that direction... then hell yes. Just don't get your hopes THAT high.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Unless, of course, you simply meant geared in that direction... then hell yes. Just don't get your hopes THAT high.
I meant "geared in that direction." I used to live on the northside of Chicago so it's a natural point of reference for me. BTW, most/many of the beaches on Lake Michigan are NOT part of upscale/luxury areas. I never intended my comparison to be taken as one between Tulsa's riverfront/downtown and Chicago's loop/downtown, Navy Pier, Magnificent Mile, etc, etc...
If you find my comparison to Chicago to be unreasonable... my last couple of years in Chicagoland were spent in Elgin, IL, a city about one-quarter the size of Tulsa. They have a much smaller historic downtown yet have been able to do stuff like this...
http://www.cityofelgin.org/index.asp?nid=501
With these kinds of guidelines.... this link makes for a nice read, hint hint...
http://www.cityofelgin.org/index.asp?NID=528
My personal favorite snippet....
"Well-paying, long-term jobs must be associated with the proposed project (with a wage rate at least 25% above the average of wage rate for the community)."And finally, for your viewing pleasure, a short history of the Chicago lakefront...
http://foreverfreeandclear.org/LSDHistory
quote:
The land that is now Grant Park was deeded to the citizens of Chicago in two phases. Roughly half of the former Fort Dearborn — bounded by Michigan Avenue, the river, the lake, and Madison Street — was deeded on 2 November 1835 for "all time to come for a public square, accessible at all times to the people." This land included the current site of the Chicago Cultural Center (the former Dearborn Park and original Chicago Public Library) and what is now Grant Park between Randolph and Madison streets. The exact boundaries weren't determined until April 1839, when the rest of the Fort Dearborn tract went on sale.
More importantly, the 1836 plat of the State of Illinois' land grant for the I&M canal, supervised by Gurdon Hubbard, William F. Thornton, also included a public ground. On their plat map, they marked the lakefront property east of Michigan, from Madison south to 12th Street (Roosevelt Road) "Public Ground — Common to Remain Forever Open, Clear, and Free of Any Buildings, or Other Obstruction Whatever."
The land that the federal and state governments deeded to the young city as public grounds were, at the time, not of terrible commercial importance to the city. Most commerce tended to congregate near the river's mouth, and the thin, muddy strips of shoreline now in the city's possession were growing thinner and muddier by the year as erosion washed away the sand. City residents were soon requesting a breakwater to protect them from the encroaching lake, and the Illinois Central railroad — eager to connect central Chicago to the southern part of the state — drew up plans for a breakwater and trestle in the lake, along the shore. After a short legislative battle in 1852, the railroad quickly began construction on a new terminal (sited on the remainder of the Fort Dearborn property) and on a trestle that would shut the south side of Chicago off from its lakefront.
The Illinois Central proved a bad precedent for the development of parks along Chicago's lakefront. From 1890 to 1913, retail ogul Aaron Montgomery Ward went to court several times to prevent construction of various structures, from armories to a natural history museum, within the confines of Grant Park. In 1894, his pressure forced the City Council to turn over the Lake Park lands to the South Park Commission, which had been in charge of developing the World's Columbian Exhibition in Jackson Park and the adjacent parklands and set about developing the park. His actions also stopped cold Daniel Burnham's plans for a cultural campus in Grant Park; the museums planned for that site, including the Field Museum of Natural History and the Adler Planetarium, were eventually built on new fill east of the Illinois Central tracks and south of Twelfth Street.
The precedent for Lake Shore Drive was set in 1896, when the Commercial Club asked Daniel Burnham to present some schemes he had been working on for the south lakefront. The areas west of the IC tracks were terribly congested and crowded, despite the new parkways. Burnham planned to fill in vast lakefront areas and to create a network of lagoons, sheltered by offshore islands, along the city\u2019s entire lakefront. A scenic "Outer Park Boulevard" would connect north and south lakefronts, offering a pleasurable Sunday drive for the city's residents. The Commercial Club was so impressed by Burnham's scheme that they commissioned the famous Plan of Chicago, completed in 1909 and widely publicized ever since. Burnham centered the grand plan around the lakefront park and pleasure drive, writing
"First in importance [to the city] is the shore of Lake Michigan. It should be treated as park space to the greatest possible extent. The lakefront by right belongs to the people... not a foot of its shores should be appropriated to the exclusion of the people."
The plan inspired the City Council to pass a lakefront ordinance in 1919, calling for construction on the islands and lagoons, beaches, and a new sports stadium (Soldier Field). The Illinois Central cooperated by electrifying and depressing many of its tracks on the South Side, but progress remained slow due to the intervening Depression and World War Two.
Although the "clear and free" prohibition technically only covered Grant Park, many took the words to cover the entire lakefront park system. To this day, Chicago has a waterfront park system almost unparalleled among major cities worldwide, largely thanks to the vision of its forefathers.
Well, if there's anybody who knows tax boondoggles, a case could be made for Kaiser....
http://www.ncrp.org/042505.asp
quote:
A Tax Benefit for Big Donors Often Bypasses Idea of Charity
By Stephanie Strom, The New York Times
April 25, 2005
George B. Kaiser, a publicity-shy oilman who built a fortune estimated at $4 billion by snapping up busted petroleum businesses in Oklahoma, set aside roughly $1 billion for charitable endeavors from 2000 to the end of last year.
In exchange, he can now deflect taxes on much of his own income over the next several years.
But it turns out that only $3.4 million of the money he set aside has gone to charities. The rest is sitting in an obscure philanthropic entity called a supporting organization, so named because it is created to support a specific charity or charities.
Supporting organizations are attractive to donors because they offer the generous tax benefits associated with donating directly to charities and operate much like private foundations, but without a foundation's more onerous requirements.
Donors get those perks because they agree to relinquish control over the money. But since they appoint the organization's board, they can retain a great deal of influence over it.
Regulators and lawmakers suspect that many wealthy people have used these organizations more for tax planning than for any charitable aim and are pushing for tighter rules as part of a broader crackdown on charitable tax exemptions.
"I'm deeply disturbed that with a good number of supporting organizations, people are taking multimillion-dollar tax deductions for what they claim are contributions to charity, yet too often the result is a thimbleful of benefit to charity," said Senator Charles E. Grassley, the Iowa Republican who is chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.
Its a foundation, like many colleges have where your money grows and continues to give.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20060510/ai_n16356182
http://www.tulsacf.org/TulsaSpiritPressRelease.asp
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Its a foundation, like many colleges have where your money grows and continues to give.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20060510/ai_n16356182
http://www.tulsacf.org/TulsaSpiritPressRelease.asp
It is slightly different in that foundations have requirements to disburse certain amounts each fiscal year and are presumably separate from the donors. I think what the article says is that these are special "supportive" beasts that may accumulate and disburse at will with the directors under pressure from the donor.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Its a foundation, like many colleges have where your money grows and continues to give.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20060510/ai_n16356182
http://www.tulsacf.org/TulsaSpiritPressRelease.asp
I understand those foundations are also the result of Mr. Kaiser. However, the lead for the River Proposal is the George Kaiser Family Foundation which is a very effective gift to our community.
But then again how did a tread entitled "Riverwalk Phase II" get to this discussion?
The people developing Jenks River Crossing are not asking for money from the public because they KNOW without a shadow of a doubt they will get their money back and more.
Tulsa City is making this a county issue because the people wanting to develope it know that it is a huge risk and don't have the confidence that the project will be a money making endever.
They say this river project will add 9,000 jobs. I would love to know how they figure a few resteraunts and shops will hire that many people - unless they mean security jobs to keep the people who go there safe. [:D]
Hey gang, did you see in todays news the re-building of the RiverSide jogging trails? WoW!! The new trail will look real spiffy. They will have two trails one for the bike riders/rollerblades and one for us joggers & runners. The picture they had of it at Tulsa World.com looked like a divided "highway" only it's for joggers and cyclists, instead of cars. I guess they will re-build the jogging trail in sections the first section will be from 21st street to 41st street. The trail will be closed while it's under construction. Then when it re-opens they will re-build the next section 41st to 71st street & so on. It's really going to look great! Great job Tulsa![:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
The people developing Jenks River Crossing are not asking for money from the public because they KNOW without a shadow of a doubt they will get their money back and more.
Tulsa City is making this a county issue because the people wanting to develope it know that it is a huge risk and don't have the confidence that the project will be a money making endever.
They say this river project will add 9,000 jobs. I would love to know how they figure a few resteraunts and shops will hire that many people - unless they mean security jobs to keep the people who go there safe. [:D]
Cheesecake factory employs something like 200. Just on restaurant. The Tulsa Landing project would go far towards that number.
Nice Acorn lights.... NOT.
(http://tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2007/riverwalk2.jpg)
They had done a fairly decent job of lighting earlier so im disappointed this phase will be a step backward. Maybe this time the electricty peddlers "consulted" with them?
My sympathies to anyone on the second or third stories that had hoped for an evening view of the river/skyline, or a dark bedroom to get some sleep in at night.
A decent sized restaurant (think Applebees) employs around 100, a mid-sized retailer employs about 100 (Wal-Greens, Victoria Secrets, etc.). So we would need NINETY of those along the river to make that happen. Or about the same number as are in Promenade mall.
With all the greenspace, that would be a TON. Especially considering the small business ventures they want to attract usually employ far less. A Bill and Ruths employs what... 10 people? River's Edge employs 5 I think.
Those numbers are extremely fishy to me.
I worked as a dishwasher at an AppleBee's in Cincinatti long ago and the total number of employees was something like 20-(25 max)... Wal-Greens employes something like 10 people everytime I go into that store I only see about 4 employees, then when you account for weekend shifts and part time workers I can't see any more than about 10 employees I don't see how they get those numbers.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I worked as a dishwasher at an AppleBee's in Cincinatti long ago and the total number of employees was something like 20-(25 max)... Wal-Greens employes something like 10 people everytime I go into that store I only see about 4 employees, then when you account for weekend shifts and part time workers I can't see any more than about 10 employees I don't see how they get those numbers.
Cheesecake factory employs 200.
If an applebees takes something like 20-25 per shift to run the store. Since very few work all day or everyday, you have about 60-75 people actually employed.
When I've gone to walgreens I have seen 6 in the pharmacy area, 3 in the photo center, 1 or 2 at the register and another 2-3 floaters. That doesn't count stocking or cleaning area. Assuming that the loss of employees during the later shifts is offset by stockers and cleaners, that is like 13 people working there at a time. That would be 55 people if everyone worked 40hrs.
9000 people working on the dams, trails, bridges, parks, piers, living river, lighting, restaurants, downtown connector, etc. etc. Not permanent jobs, the permanent jobs is the smaller number, I think it was around 600 for that.
9000 people working on the dams, trails, bridges, parks, piers, living river, lighting, restaurants, downtown connector, etc. etc. Not permanent jobs, the permanent jobs is the smaller number, I think it was around 600 for that. And that has nothing to do with the Riverwalk.
the 9000 they are loudly touting in commercials is retarded then. lets make a million jobs by taking my money and giving it to other people to construct things... great economic sense as those workers head back to their homes when its done.
If thats really where the 9000 jobs comes from, they are being VERY misleading in that regaurd.
Phase 2 of Riverwalk Crossing is now finally under construction:
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0108/486661.html
The final plans include more retail, 207 apartments and 50 condos.
I also read in one of the Jenks weeklies that the River District is going to start earth work in 60 days and the plan is so good and has such a national buzz that it has been chosen to be featured on the cover of the national shopping center trade magazine in the next couple of months. OTA may even be building the River District it's own turnpike exit on the Creek Turnpike right next to the Aquarium (that Tulsa didn't want).
www.riverdistrict.tv
www.riverwalkcrossing.com
So tell me, how's all that new river development coming in Tulsa in light of the river vote? Is "Tulsa Landing" about to break ground? Many of the "no" votes said that the Branson Landing people would come no matter what the vote's outcome was, how's that working out? I was told I was full of crap over the whole expanding the tax base thing and needing to compete with all the development in Jenks. Was I? Does that 50 cents a week you saved by voting no feel good in your wallet? Wait, change doesn't go in a wallet, does it feel good in your pocket? I'm glad the roads in Tulsa are so much better now with the no vote.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Phase 2 of Riverwalk Crossing is now finally under construction:
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0108/486661.html
The final plans include more retail, 207 apartments and 50 condos.
I also read in one of the Jenks weeklies that the River District is going to start earth work in 60 days and the plan is so good and has such a national buzz that it has been chosen to be featured on the cover of the national shopping center trade magazine in the next couple of months. OTA may even be building the River District it's own turnpike exit on the Creek Turnpike right next to the Aquarium (that Tulsa didn't want).
www.riverdistrict.tv
www.riverwalkcrossing.com
So tell me, how's all that new river development coming in Tulsa in light of the river vote? Is "Tulsa Landing" about to break ground? Many of the "no" votes said that the Branson Landing people would come no matter what the vote's outcome was, how's that working out? I was told I was full of crap over the whole expanding the tax base thing and needing to compete with all the development in Jenks. Was I? Does that 50 cents a week you saved by voting no feel good in your wallet? Wait, change doesn't go in a wallet, does it feel good in your pocket? I'm glad the roads in Tulsa are so much better now with the no vote.
Yep, nothing gets done if it never gets started. Tulsa is dying more every day. How long do they think they can keep waiting for something better? It's been put off for 30 years or more!
I saw nothing in those articles that said Riverwalk Phase II was now under construction? We have been hearing that for quite a while now. They keep "announcing" things in the media, then nothning happens. That news article wasnt even an announcement per say. Just a rehash of old news. The only thing they said in relation to construction was "And, just north of the current strip, there are plans for 207 apartments, 50 condos and brand new retail." There have been plans for years now.
So where did you get this swake...."Phase 2 of Riverwalk Crossing is now finally under construction:"
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I saw nothing in those articles that said Riverwalk Phase II was now under construction? We have been hearing that for quite a while now. They keep "announcing" things in the media, then nothning happens. That news article wasnt even an announcement per say. Just a rehash of old news. The only thing they said in relation to construction was "And, just north of the current strip, there are plans for 207 apartments, 50 condos and brand new retail." There have been plans for years now.
So where did you get this swake...."Phase 2 of Riverwalk Crossing is now finally under construction:"
I watched the actual news story this morning on KTUL and they showed the equipment and such onsite getting going, finally.
Well I sure hope so. Hope I didnt come off as sounding frustrated with you or anything you posted. Was just starting to get frustrated that I had seen so many stories that he was going to start. They shuffle some dirt around for the camera. Then things sit there until the next "breaking news" story. It was starting to sound like Bells, their remodeling plans and or new rollercoaster lol. Eeevery spring the cameras were there and we saw pics of pretty drawings. All we got was more rust.
I am excited to see the new Riverwalk expansion go ahead. Its going to be about a year till we get to see any actual building at the River District.
Whatever happened to announcing the retailers coming? They acted like when they first announced that it wouldn't be too long before they announced some of the new retailers to occupy the space.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Phase 2 of Riverwalk Crossing is now finally under construction:
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0108/486661.html
The final plans include more retail, 207 apartments and 50 condos.
I also read in one of the Jenks weeklies that the River District is going to start earth work in 60 days and the plan is so good and has such a national buzz that it has been chosen to be featured on the cover of the national shopping center trade magazine in the next couple of months. OTA may even be building the River District it's own turnpike exit on the Creek Turnpike right next to the Aquarium (that Tulsa didn't want).
www.riverdistrict.tv
www.riverwalkcrossing.com
So tell me, how's all that new river development coming in Tulsa in light of the river vote? Is "Tulsa Landing" about to break ground? Many of the "no" votes said that the Branson Landing people would come no matter what the vote's outcome was, how's that working out? I was told I was full of crap over the whole expanding the tax base thing and needing to compete with all the development in Jenks. Was I? Does that 50 cents a week you saved by voting no feel good in your wallet? Wait, change doesn't go in a wallet, does it feel good in your pocket? I'm glad the roads in Tulsa are so much better now with the no vote.
Shameful OTA! Corporate welfare....
You assume this is successful but time will tell.....
quote:
Originally posted by safetyguy
Whatever happened to announcing the retailers coming? They acted like when they first announced that it wouldn't be too long before they announced some of the new retailers to occupy the space.
I bet with The River District coming they are going to struggle with retailers, at least good ones.
My guess is that the Riverwalk will become more and more of a bar district with retail driven by that kind of crowd.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by safetyguy
Whatever happened to announcing the retailers coming? They acted like when they first announced that it wouldn't be too long before they announced some of the new retailers to occupy the space.
I bet with The River District coming they are going to struggle with retailers, at least good ones.
My guess is that the Riverwalk will become more and more of a bar district with retail driven by that kind of crowd.
SUPER! More bar districts! WHOOPPPEEE!!! Alcohol has proven to be such a great drug for society.
Using the money from TIF, I see the day coming where a sizable portion is used for bribing Nordstroms....but it may eat into the other infrastructure costs.
Maybe Lynn Mitchell can convert some of his welfare funds into a new NSL franchise and build a new soccer stadium too!
And Jerry Gordon's banks can maybe tap into the TIF to save their bee hinds.....
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by safetyguy
Whatever happened to announcing the retailers coming? They acted like when they first announced that it wouldn't be too long before they announced some of the new retailers to occupy the space.
I bet with The River District coming they are going to struggle with retailers, at least good ones.
My guess is that the Riverwalk will become more and more of a bar district with retail driven by that kind of crowd.
SUPER! More bar districts! WHOOPPPEEE!!! Alcohol has proven to be such a great drug for society.
Using the money from TIF, I see the day coming where a sizable portion is used for bribing Nordstroms....but it may eat into the other infrastructure costs.
Maybe Lynn Mitchell can convert some of his welfare funds into a new NSL franchise and build a new soccer stadium too!
And Jerry Gordon's banks can maybe tap into the TIF to save their bee hinds.....
Keep crying in your (non alcoholic) beer, then maybe Tulsa can have a lake downtown for people to visit and talk about how smug they are and smell their own farts.
Oh let up on old FOTD, he's just bitter his drug (herb) of choice isn't legal.
Somehow, I just do not see Riverwalk as being upscale enough for a Nordstroms. The only place in town that might even be close is Utica Square and I do not see that happening there either. You have to have a high income neighborhood for there to be a Nordstroms. I could be wrong though.
set to begin - minus the condos:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20081212_32_E1_Rtisal918317
There's a sign at the entrance now advertising a McDurmots Irish Bar and Grill and the Lewis and Clark outfitters.
That's something I guess, because other than a backhoe that's been sitting over by the theater, I haven't seen anything happening...
I'll believe it when I see it.
Apparently they want Jenks to help out on the infrastructure side:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20090216_298_0_JENKST336547&archive=yes
quote:
Jenks proposes improvement district for commerical development
by: SUSAN HYLTON World Staff Writer
Tuesday, February 17, 2009
2/17/2009 4:54:26 AM
JENKS — The city of Jenks is proposing an improvement district that would fund a $1.3 million infrastructure project to help make the second phase of the RiverWalk Crossing development happen.
After multiple delays since 2007, the proposal comes after RiverWalk developer Jerry Gordon secured a $41 million loan and began turning dirt on the project in December. "RiverWalk Crossing has been very successful, and we look forward to Phase 2 being constructed," Jenks City Attorney Stephen Oakley said.
The development includes retail stores, offices, restaurants and entertainment venues. Noting that the funding proposal is something the city has never before done, Oakley said today's lending market isn't exactly what it used to be, either.
Oakley said Gordon would pay back the $1.3 million with interest plus about $22,000 in administrative costs, over 15 years.
"Our lien is in front of the bank's lien, so the bank will make sure everything's paid," Oakley said.
Gordon's bank, American National Bank of Texas, wanted some assistance with the project, Oakley said. "They needed a certain amount of equity in place," he said.
Gordon would not receive a lump sum under the plan. Oakley said he would have to provide evidence of improvements and that the payments would be made to the contractors.
The infrastructure work would include water lines, sanitary and storm sewers, paving, curbs and gutters.
"Those infrastructure improvements will either be deeded over to the city or conveyed to the city in some form, either as an easement or an actual conveyance," Oakley said. The storm sewer drains will also benefit the K Place project on a dead-end street that will connect to the RiverWalk second-phase development.
The City Council voted Monday night to proceed with the project and hold a public hearing on the issue as soon as March 2.
A bank would loan the funds to the Jenks Redevelopment Authority, and the money would flow through the city as projects are completed.
Jenks would have the same foreclosure powers on the property as counties do against property owners who don't pay their property taxes.
"That's why the mortgage company is not going to let it go into default," Oakley said. The existing RiverWalk and its second phase are not exempt from sales or property taxes, Oakley said.
Lewis & Clark Outfitters is set to be the anchor tenant of the second phase, which is to add another 125,000 square feet of retail space north of the existing 110,000 square feet.
The second phase was 45 percent leased in December, with an additional 30 percent spoken for in letters of intent.
Gordon sold 10 acres for $1.8 million to John and Stuart Price, who plan to build a 200-unit apartment development.
Wow, wonder how long this thing will drag on? I hope it happens. Will be a really nice place once, if, its all done.
Apparently the Riverwalk folks are very touchy about publicity:
JENKS, OK -- A troubled retailer who talked to The News On 6 on Monday night got a 24-hour eviction notice on Tuesday morning.
"When I first signed my lease you know I was told that there would be some nationally recognized companies coming in, you know maybe a Gap, Bath and Body Works or Bed Bath and Beyond and it would be open for business in spring/summer of 2007," said Dara Dupler, owner of Azure Couture.
Dara Dupler thinks her statement is the reason The RiverWalk Crossing in Jenks is trying to kick her out. She had planned to close her store, Azure Couture, in a couple of weeks.
In the original story, Dupler placed part of the blame on broken promises from the developer of the RiverWalk Crossing.
She says she plans to fight the eviction.
Surely it wouldn't be related... I guess I know why I walked by the riverwalk and kept asking myself... Why the hell would you open this here. Soon they will have 0 retail.
What ever happened to Inteller? Iplaw?
Who banked this shenanigan?
I've been in every business out there (almost every weekend). Her business has some nice stuff, but it's expensive as hell! I like to look at it but like everyone else, I'm not buyin.
I would say it's the business model, not the atmosphere.
Quote from: Trogdor on June 30, 2009, 10:50:13 PM
Surely it wouldn't be related... I guess I know why I walked by the riverwalk and kept asking myself... Why the hell would you open this here. Soon they will have 0 retail.
Sounds like a Jenks mini-version of Tulsa's Eastland Mall.
Quote from: Gaspar on July 01, 2009, 10:18:26 AM
I've been in every business out there (almost every weekend). Her business has some nice stuff, but it's expensive as hell! I like to look at it but like everyone else, I'm not buyin.
I would say it's the business model, not the atmosphere.
It's most definitely not a lack of traffic that's killing her business.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 01, 2009, 10:54:22 AM
It's most definitely not a lack of traffic that's killing her business.
No, the place was usually full of folks browsing when we've been there. They have some really nice stuff, it's just outrageous.
Retail FAIL
(http://api.ning.com/files/XDhIWpkRMRf*6P*Hlsx*afKFp4iFu9OsVogduuiAt-U8DOJyOYdeClbVrRp-6QZkA37Ls*vEXYakFnLT3f7pm6xgvCC1AF9C/epicFAIL.jpg)
Quote from: Gaspar on July 01, 2009, 10:18:26 AM
I've been in every business out there (almost every weekend).
That must take about 5 minutes (assume you are talking about NON-food businesses)
Quote from: Trogdor on July 01, 2009, 11:50:35 AM
That must take about 5 minutes (assume you are talking about NON-food businesses)
No, we usually eat, spend some time listening to whatever band is playing, walk down to the spash pad with the kids and let them frolic for a while, or catch a movie. We drop in some of the retailers along the way. If the grandparents have the kids and it's not to hot we stop at the boat bar, have a beer and people watch, or the cigar bar for a beer and a chat. It's always a good inexpensive way to spend a friday night. Tulsa should develop something like it along it's side of the river.
Quote from: swake on January 10, 2008, 04:24:26 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by inteller</i>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FOTD</i>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by swake</i>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by safetyguy</i>
Whatever happened to announcing the retailers coming? They acted like when they first announced that it wouldn't be too long before they announced some of the new retailers to occupy the space.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I bet with The River District coming they are going to struggle with retailers, at least good ones.
My guess is that the Riverwalk will become more and more of a bar district with retail driven by that kind of crowd.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
SUPER! More bar districts! WHOOPPPEEE!!! Alcohol has proven to be such a great drug for society.
Using the money from TIF, I see the day coming where a sizable portion is used for bribing Nordstroms....but it may eat into the other infrastructure costs.
Maybe Lynn Mitchell can convert some of his welfare funds into a new NSL franchise and build a new soccer stadium too!
And Jerry Gordon's banks can maybe tap into the TIF to save their bee hinds.....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Keep crying in your (non alcoholic) beer, then maybe Tulsa can have a lake downtown for people to visit and talk about how smug they are and smell their own farts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Oh let up on old FOTD, he's just bitter his drug (herb) of choice isn't legal.
Old?
Jinx will be remembered for antique row.
FOTD is getting a little tired of his %6+ ad valorem tax increases every year to support this bloated white flight school system.
Looks like this demons predictions are still holding up.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 01, 2009, 10:54:22 AM
It's most definitely not a lack of traffic that's killing her business.
Yes, it is.
You guys are cracking me up.
"Well every time I'm out there its always packed." LOL
WELL DUH, because you guys are out there during the same times everyone else is. This equates to weekends, and summers. Nothing more.
Visit the Riverwalk from 10-5 on any weekday. It is a ghost town.
Because of the lack of retail anchors (which is exactly what she was trying to explain on the Channel 6 video), the Riverwalk fails to draw ANY wintertime/Christmas traffic.
All of the businesses there suffer tremendously 6-months out of the year. Just ask Gary's Grill, Cat in the Fiddle Toystore, Joojoo Bee's restaurant, Sunami's Sushi Bar, West Southwest Indian Store, Sticks Unique Furniture, the Nail Salon, X-Y Clothing, The Wild Honeysuckle...
Oh wait, those are ALL Riverwalk businesses that have shut down or relocated in the last 2 1/2 years.
The sudden knee-jerk eviction notice only makes things worse for the developer in this lose/lose situation. They need strong anchor stores to draw in year-round traffic, and now signing those tenants just got that much harder due to this bad publicity.
This makes me sad because, as a regular year-round visitor to this area, I have really grown to like this particular patch of development and would like to see more of it.
--
Food, music and bars, that seems to be popular there,
just make it all that, no retail.
The retail at the Riverwalk is all trendy, overpriced crap.
throw in a Sonic, maybe a little convenience store, a candy store, something like that.
Look at Bricktown, they survive on the music, food and drinks, and they do just fine.
Quote from: Danny on July 01, 2009, 05:01:15 PM
Food, music and bars, that seems to be popular there,
just make it all that, no retail.
The retail at the Riverwalk is all trendy, overpriced crap.
throw in a Sonic, maybe a little convenience store, a candy store, something like that.
Look at Bricktown, they survive on the music, food and drinks, and they do just fine.
Sunami's, Gary's Grill, Joojoo Bee's... all failed food establishments.
Those are good insights Hawkins. I called on this center, and the few tenants they had, when they were first opening, for advertising space for a little newspaper I was working for. They had sunk all their money into a full color spread in Tulsa People for a grand opening. I was amazed because there were so few tenants for such an investment and no anchor tenants unless you consider a Mexican restaurant as one. Expectations were high among all the tenants. That was about 4 years ago.
The thing she mentioned that struck home was the comment about being misled by the developer. The tenants at that time had been told that the new dam would begin construction in just a few months and be finished within a year. I knew that was crazy, yet they believed. Stories from landlords are notoriously puffed up but that one had no relation to reality. I watched as each of the tenants you listed failed or moved on and I have to say, though I like the place, it is only suitable for restaurants, bars, theatre etc. Dead during the day and filled with kids at night. The opening of the River District nearby will spell that out clearly.
I have never gone into any of the stores at Riverwalk. I only go there to eat, drink, and listen to music. Sunami closed downtown as well so I don't think you can blame the Riverwalk. I would like to see more bars there so you can walk from bar to bar.
Quote from: OpenYourEyesTulsa on July 02, 2009, 09:34:29 AM
I have never gone into any of the stores at Riverwalk. I only go there to eat, drink, and listen to music. Sunami closed downtown as well so I don't think you can blame the Riverwalk. I would like to see more bars there so you can walk from bar to bar.
The owner sunk too much capital into the Riverwalk location and lost his butt. He wasn't able to continue business in the downtown location after that.
Quote from: OpenYourEyesTulsa on July 02, 2009, 09:34:29 AM
I have never gone into any of the stores at Riverwalk. I only go there to eat, drink, and listen to music. Sunami closed downtown as well so I don't think you can blame the Riverwalk. I would like to see more bars there so you can walk from bar to bar.
More bars?? I'm just rolling on the floor laughing now.
Lets see, there is (1) an outdoor bar at Los Cabos (with live music on weekends), (2) in front of Ale Haus (with live music on weekends) and (3) the "Boat Bar" in front of (4) Dirty's Bar. Then there is (5) a very nice bar where they actually know how to make mixed drinks right ;) inside the Cigar Box.
Then there is (6) another bar inside the Ale Haus. And (7) a bar inside Los Cabos. And (8) a bar inside Gina and Guiseppe's Italian. And (9) a bar inside the Melting Pot.
That makes a total of NINE indoor/outdoor bars on the Riverwalk.
AND there is a new bar opened adjacent to the Riverwalk in that new retail corner called Louie's Bar and Grill. That makes 10 all within walking distance.
--
Quote from: Hawkins on July 02, 2009, 11:25:28 AM
More bars?? I'm just rolling on the floor laughing now.
Lets see, there is (1) an outdoor bar at Los Cabos (with live music on weekends), (2) in front of Ale Haus (with live music on weekends) and (3) the "Boat Bar" in front of (4) Dirty's Bar. Then there is (5) a very nice bar where they actually know how to make mixed drinks right ;) inside the Cigar Box.
Then there is (6) another bar inside the Ale Haus. And (7) a bar inside Los Cabos. And (8) a bar inside Gina and Guiseppe's Italian. And (9) a bar inside the Melting Pot.
That makes a total of NINE indoor/outdoor bars on the Riverwalk.
AND there is a new bar opened adjacent to the Riverwalk in that new retail corner called Louie's Bar and Grill. That makes 10 all within walking distance.
--
Only ten????? They need more bars.
(http://adland.tv/n1rv4n4g8/2008/marchjpgs/pb_bbdo_s_lg.jpg)
Quote from: Conan71 on July 02, 2009, 11:46:37 AM
Only ten????? They need more bars.
(http://adland.tv/n1rv4n4g8/2008/marchjpgs/pb_bbdo_s_lg.jpg)
+100
Like Hawkins, I thought the important point made by this latest failed Riverwalk retailer was her allegation that the landlord made representations to her about numerous other high quality tenants that would locate in Riverwalk - none of which came to fruition. I have spoken to several owners of other failed Riverwalk businesses who have told me of similar experiences. Given the landlord's apparent retaliation, this is obviously a touchy subject for him.
Small businesses fail for lots of reasons, and this business may have been over priced. But it is not hard to see how low foot traffic during week days and during cold winter months, as well as unfulfilled promises of other high end retailers locating in the development, could have contributed to her store's demise.
So far, Riverwalk appears to be a good location for restaurants/bars that are not dependant upon lunch business. The retail side of things seem to be a bigger struggle and will probably continue to do so unless/until a sizeable national chain retail presence is established.
Coming in late on this thread, I think it's clear that Tulsa Hills and the recession have decimated Riverwalk, and that Riverwalk will remain on life support unless the developer pulls something big out of his hat.
Why? Because Tulsa Hills has honest-to-God retail heavyweights (Lowes, Target, Best Buy) and better access for drivers. Sure, Riverwalk is relatively easy to access. But Tulsa Hills is even easier to get to via U.S. 75.
And, now, Tulsa Hills is starting to attract more restaurants. Look for the bleeding of Riverwalk to continue.
And I suspect the long-ballyhooed development proposal near the river in Jenks will sink without a trace, without an ounce of concrete being poured.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on July 02, 2009, 02:33:57 PM
Coming in late on this thread, I think it's clear that Tulsa Hills and the recession have decimated Riverwalk, and that Riverwalk will remain on life support unless the developer pulls something big out of his hat.
Why? Because Tulsa Hills has honest-to-God retail heavyweights (Lowes, Target, Best Buy) and better access for drivers. Sure, Riverwalk is relatively easy to access. But Tulsa Hills is even easier to get to via U.S. 75.
And, now, Tulsa Hills is starting to attract more restaurants. Look for the bleeding of Riverwalk to continue.
And I suspect the long-ballyhooed development proposal near the river in Jenks will sink without a trace, without an ounce of concrete being poured.
Another reason why a significant anchor is necessary for any new or existing development. The movie theater was thought to be that for Riverwalk but its small size and location doesn't register the same impact as the midtown AMC or Tulsa Cinemark w/ IMAX would. The restaurants do good business because you can sit outside and look at the river while eating, as most have outdoor seating areas. But I never envisioned retail on a large scale working on the river, in Jenks or if Tulsa's 'Branson Landing' proposal ever got off the ground.
I think you can relate this to bringing retail back downtown in the same way. Downtown has great highway access for those driving and (someday) will be the nexus of a rail transit system, in addition to the bus service already present. Yet there is little retail downtown. Denver, a much larger city with a much more vibrant downtown, has the same trouble getting retail downtown, why? No anchor. If, and it's a big if, a large department store retailer like a Nordstrom that isn't found anywhere else in the city (or state) were to open a store in downtown as part of a larger development I would bet it and the development around it would fare well because the access is good and it would be providing shoppers something they don't already have. If Riverwalk had a major anchor like that they would be doing better, as it is they are not..
Quote from: rwarn17588 on July 02, 2009, 02:33:57 PM
Coming in late on this thread, I think it's clear that Tulsa Hills and the recession have decimated Riverwalk, and that Riverwalk will remain on life support unless the developer pulls something big out of his hat.
Why? Because Tulsa Hills has honest-to-God retail heavyweights (Lowes, Target, Best Buy) and better access for drivers. Sure, Riverwalk is relatively easy to access. But Tulsa Hills is even easier to get to via U.S. 75.
And, now, Tulsa Hills is starting to attract more restaurants. Look for the bleeding of Riverwalk to continue.
And I suspect the long-ballyhooed development proposal near the river in Jenks will sink without a trace, without an ounce of concrete being poured.
I don't think Tulsa Hills has anything to do with the Riverwalk.
There is no electronics store at the riverwalk
There is no book store at the riverwalk
There is no pet store at the riverwalk
There is no lower priced clothing store at the riverwalk
There is no "fast food" at the riverwalk
There is no hardware store at the riverwalk
Quote from: Trogdor on July 02, 2009, 03:05:06 PM
I don't think Tulsa Hills has anything to do with the Riverwalk.
There is no electronics store at the riverwalk
There is no book store at the riverwalk
There is no pet store at the riverwalk
There is no lower priced clothing store at the riverwalk
There is no "fast food" at the riverwalk
There is no hardware store at the riverwalk
Not to mention that Riverwalk is just about completely leased out and phase 2 is under construction now with a major retail anchor coming in. A large upscale sporting goods store. Tulsa Hills has no sporting goods store at all.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on July 02, 2009, 02:33:57 PM
Coming in late on this thread, I think it's clear that Tulsa Hills and the recession have decimated Riverwalk, and that Riverwalk will remain on life support unless the developer pulls something big out of his hat.
Why? Because Tulsa Hills has honest-to-God retail heavyweights (Lowes, Target, Best Buy) and better access for drivers. Sure, Riverwalk is relatively easy to access. But Tulsa Hills is even easier to get to via U.S. 75.
And, now, Tulsa Hills is starting to attract more restaurants. Look for the bleeding of Riverwalk to continue.
And I suspect the long-ballyhooed development proposal near the river in Jenks will sink without a trace, without an ounce of concrete being poured.
Tulsa Hills restaurants suck. Buffalo Wild Wings is awful, Chili's is awful, McDonalds, Arby's (not yet built) are McDonalds and Arbys. Tulsa Hills is going to then be adding Cracker Barrel and Whataburger.
That is major suckage.
It's Tulsa Hills that's half empty, not Riverwalk. And Riverwalk has actual construction going on in the phase 2 section. Tulsa Hills has a land for sale sign.
I'm curious if the retailer we were talking about bothered to be open on Thurs. Fri. and Sat. nights. It makes ZERO sense to be open at 10am on Tuesday and closed at the highest traffic times on the weekend evenings. You make your sales when there's traffic.
Quote from: Trogdor on July 02, 2009, 03:05:06 PM
I don't think Tulsa Hills has anything to do with the Riverwalk.
There is no electronics store at the riverwalk
There is no book store at the riverwalk
There is no pet store at the riverwalk
There is no lower priced clothing store at the riverwalk
There is no "fast food" at the riverwalk
There is no hardware store at the riverwalk
Which sort of makes my point. A development such as Riverwalk needs an anchor retail component.
People went to Riverwalk a few times because it was new and a novelty. But save for an occasional dining-out, people won't return to Riverwalk. People will continue to flock to Tulsa Hills because it has semi-useful stores and it's easier to get to.
Quote from: swake on July 02, 2009, 03:13:32 PM
Tulsa Hills restaurants suck. Buffalo Wild Wings is awful, Chili's is awful, McDonalds, Arby's (not yet built) are McDonalds and Arbys. Tulsa Hills is going to then be adding Cracker Barrel and Whataburger.
That is major suckage.
It's Tulsa Hills that's half empty, not Riverwalk. And Riverwalk has actual construction going on in the phase 2 section. Tulsa Hills has a land for sale sign.
Suckage is in the eye of the beholder. But these restaurants remain high-traffic and profitable.
Land for sale, big deal. It's a recession. And Tulsa Hills continues to expand. The only expansion at Riverwalk lately is the promises.
And I guarantee you're going to have a lot more people continue to go to Tulsa Hills because of its greater utility. Trendy restaurants are fine, but they aren't going to help get a bandsaw or MP3 player.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on July 02, 2009, 03:17:15 PM
Which sort of makes my point. A development such as Riverwalk needs an anchor retail component.
People went to Riverwalk a few times because it was new and a novelty. But save for an occasional dining-out, people won't return to Riverwalk. People will continue to flock to Tulsa Hills because it has semi-useful stores and it's easier to get to.
I know a whole lot of repeats. These are two different types of retail centers. Tulsa Hills is a big box heaven. RC is small retail and entertainment. If you take a look at the way that RC was built, the original plan does not have a provision for a major retail anchor tennant with the way the individual spaces are set up. Just because your paradigm is that Tulsa Hills is more your bag and RC isn't doesn't mean that's true for everyone. You can't compare the two centers as if they were equals because they are not.
That's not to say that the developer of RC is infallible, Jerry Gordon is the same guy who brought Easy Rider's to 71st & Mingo. That was a truck load of FAIL.
I'll agree on a point you made earlier, I don't see the development south of the turnpike doing anything for 5-10 years now.
Quote from: Hawkins on July 01, 2009, 05:06:15 PM
Sunami's, Gary's Grill, Joojoo Bee's... all failed food establishments.
Gary's Grill was bought out by Los Cabos because they were insanely popular (brought in the most revenue of any restaurant in the entire state at one point) and needed the room to expand, JooJooBee's failed because it didn't know what the hell it wanted to be (tried to merge a casual bar with more expensive, fancy food and screwed up both) and
Tsunami failed because it was mismanaged (see: the closed Tsunami downtown).
JooJoo Bee's I believe was re imagined by the same people into the beer restaurant with only like 5 beers. I might be mistaken, however I saw the same "manager" in both restaurants.
I don't think you can so easily dismiss the impact Tulsa Hills had on Riverwalk retail. However, I think the issue is more fundamental - what makes Riverwalk attractive to dinners/drinkers/walkers is not what will make it attractive to shoppers. I suppose a view of a gently flowing river/gravel bar is nice when I'm shopping for clothes, shoes, tools, electronics, etc., but ambiance really isn't much a factor in my decision of where to go to buy those things. Strip malls, for all their drawbacks, offer the ease of access and convenience of a cluster of stores with nearby parking. By its very design, Riverwalk spreads things out with less convenient parking/access. No one "hangs out" at a strip mall, yet that is precisely much of the charm of Riverwalk. Trouble is, people just "hanging out" don't spend a lot of money and keep the lights on at the stores.
Maybe Phase II really will have dynamic retail and the anchor store previously promised. Even if it does, I'm not sure that will ensure retail success. Riverwalk is a bit of a retail Island - which is not what you want if you own the retail.
Quote from: DTowner on July 02, 2009, 03:34:59 PM
I don't think you can so easily dismiss the impact Tulsa Hills had on Riverwalk retail. However, I think the issue is more fundamental - what makes Riverwalk attractive to dinners/drinkers/walkers is not what will make it attractive to shoppers. I suppose a view of a gently flowing river/gravel bar is nice when I'm shopping for clothes, shoes, tools, electronics, etc., but ambiance really isn't much a factor in my decision of where to go to buy those things. Strip malls, for all their drawbacks, offer the ease of access and convenience of a cluster of stores with nearby parking. By its very design, Riverwalk spreads things out with less convenient parking/access. No one "hangs out" at a strip mall, yet that is precisely much of the charm of Riverwalk. Trouble is, people just "hanging out" don't spend a lot of money and keep the lights on at the stores.
Maybe Phase II really will have dynamic retail and the anchor store previously promised. Even if it does, I'm not sure that will ensure retail success. Riverwalk is a bit of a retail Island - which is not what you want if you own the retail.
I really don't see how Tulsa Hills would affect RC unless it's due to people spending more on electronics and shoes than dining out or kitschy gift stuff or high end home decor. People don't go to RC to buy a flat screen TV, socks, or fence posts.
My sources tell me that the Books-A-Million name was thrown around by Riverwalk to the tenants as well as a future retail anchor before they settled on their current location at Tulsa Hills.
IF this is true, there's one big hole punched in the Riverwalk's development plans by the Tulsa Hills shopping center.
Quote from: Hawkins on July 02, 2009, 06:04:39 PM
My sources tell me that the Books-A-Million name was thrown around by Riverwalk to the tenants as well as a future retail anchor before they settled on their current location at Tulsa Hills.
IF this is true, there's one big hole punched in the Riverwalk's development plans by the Tulsa Hills shopping center.
Before phase 2's funding fell through years ago, phase two was to have a Hampton Inn and Suites, a Barnes and Noble, an indoor water park, a Lone Star and Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill.
Quote from: swake on July 02, 2009, 07:04:04 PM
Before phase 2's funding fell through years ago, phase two was to have a Hampton Inn and Suites, a Barnes and Noble, an indoor water park, a Lone Star and Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill.
Toby Keith's....
Overrated. Kinda like the Hard Rock Cafe. That, to borrow a phrase from Conan, is a big steaming pile of FAIL.
Quote from: Hoss on July 02, 2009, 07:52:14 PM
Toby Keith's....
Overrated. Kinda like the Hard Rock Cafe. That, to borrow a phrase from Conan, is a big steaming pile of FAIL.
I've never been there, and it's supposed to be opening soon ironically IN the Hard Rock. A country bar in a Hard Rock Casino, only in Oklahoma.
Lone Star is a pretty "fail" chain too.
But Buffalo Wild Wings is the biggest fail I have seen recently. I heard all these great things about the place and we go and the place is just cheap and crappy inside and they serve you on paper plates. The wings are kinda ok, but my wife's nachos seriously had Rico's cheese wiz poured over them instead of melted cheese. She had wanted Chicken Nachos and they forgot the chicken, so she pointed out the mistake. The server brings out a nuked baggie of chicken in a paper cup. And the Nachos were better than my son's burger, it wasn't even to McDonald's standards. The food is about like what you would get at a movie theater.
Don't even get me started on Cracker Barrel. Or Chili's.
The restaurants at and near Riverwalk are much better. I never had really high hopes for Tulsa Hills, but when the economy went south it got a lot worse.
Rwarn, Riverwalk phase 2 was under construction as recently as three days ago. Construction did stop at The River District a couple of months ago but Riverwalk 2 is being built. And across the street from Riverwalk a new center just opened, that's where Louie's is. Across the street from that is The Village on Main, and that just started. Jenks is still building in the riverfront area.
I really don't get the lady from Azure being upset that a Gap or a Bed Bath and Beyond didn't get opened at Riverwalk. Exactly what synergy would there have been from Gap customers for a "couture" clothing store?
What Riverwalk is missing is a master plan for supporting retailers, restaurants, bars and adding in pedestrian traffic, residential and hospitality. To invest in significant infrastructure to support nothing but small retail and restaurants, they set themselves up to struggle...not fail, but struggle.
People are right, you walk there between 10-5 and it is a ghost town. Walk down there on the Thurs-Sun nights when restaurants are full and the music is going and people still are not looking to shop, they are there to have a meal and a good time. They are already wearing the $200 jeans that Azure Coture was looking to sell. Add to that, once they buy, if they want to stay and enjoy the scene unencumbered, they have to walk back out to their car, a good distance away somtimes and put away any purchased goods.
Cant imagine people getting out to shop there when all the doors are on the East side and none to easily enter from the parking lot of rainy, icy or blistering days of heat, especially if you just have to run in for something.
The absence of well known anchor brands in the beginning didnt help, add to that the excessive cost to recover investment and the rental paid by retail merchants, they would struggle to survive.
Now, in opposite fashion, look at the proposed Village on Main development going to the South of Riverwalk. Pedestrian friendly, multiple points of access to all shops, wider sidewalks, city concession to have open beverage between areas, streets through the development, planning for residential and hospitality so as to promote people presence at all times of the day and night. Now thats a plan.
Toby Keith's= Chili's + 30% higher prices without any improvement in quality.
I like the riverwalk and I think it will be successful, especially if they get the right mix of stuff in it. Some of those inital stores were just as bad for the development as the unfinished development was for the stores.
I think its looking like the types of stores that will do well there and attract more people in general to the development will be ones that are either destination stops in and of themselves and or have some sort of entertainment value. Your right, I would not go there to buy decorative items or clothes, however some quirky gift shops that are fun to browse through I could see doing well. A store thats fun to browse through and has impulse purchases. A bookstore like a good sized Borders with a coffee shop is also something that could do well there. I will go to a Borders, just to go to a Borders, it doesnt have to be in a mall or with a bunch of other things, but if it were in a place like the Riverwalk I would likely go to that one instead. A Borders is also the kind of place one might venture into just on a stroll or browse through before or after eating. A really interesting art gallery or two might be nice as well.
Because of the particular dynamics of the place, certain types of stores will do really well and others not well at all. Understanding that and getting the right mix can make it a smashing success or the wrong stores will hurt the whole thing and cause it to struggle. Will be interesting to see the direction it evolves towards.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 03, 2009, 03:01:33 PM
Toby Keith's= Chili's + 30% higher prices without any improvement in quality.
Wednesdays are boot up yer donkey nights.. You have to bring your own boots though.
We'll see what Lewis and Clark does for the area...if it ever gets built.
Borders would be great at Riverwalk but I think that would be too close to their 81st and Yale location. If Borders is interested in expanding in the Tulsa area, I would look for them to go to the Broken Arrow or Owasso area.
Don't count on Borders, they are really tightening the reins trying to stay afloat.
Speaking of bookstores, I would love to see a Barnes and Noble there. They are currently nowhere near Jenks so it would be a great location for them to put their hand in the market.
I think that once they get the residental portion of the Village on Main project complete, along with the Phase 2 of the Riverwalks residental plan, this area will get the foot traffic and atmosphere it needed. Throw in a rail trolley passing between the Riverwalk, Village on Main, the Aquarium and (maybe someday) the River District on the other side of the turnpike and you'd really something.
Maybe they should also consider something like the May's Drug Store at Utica Square that's open 24 hours a day.
Quote from: swake on July 02, 2009, 03:13:32 PM
Tulsa Hills restaurants suck. Buffalo Wild Wings is awful, Chili's is awful, McDonalds, Arby's (not yet built) are McDonalds and Arbys. Tulsa Hills is going to then be adding Cracker Barrel and Whataburger.
That is major suckage.
It's Tulsa Hills that's half empty, not Riverwalk. And Riverwalk has actual construction going on in the phase 2 section. Tulsa Hills has a land for sale sign.
I hadn't heard Tulsa Hills was adding a WhatABurger. I do know they are opening a SmashBurger later this month. I've talked to someone in Denver and they said the place is really good. So, I'm looking forward to that opening.
Quote from: swake on July 02, 2009, 03:13:32 PM
Tulsa Hills restaurants suck. Buffalo Wild Wings is awful, Chili's is awful, McDonalds, Arby's (not yet built) are McDonalds and Arbys. Tulsa Hills is going to then be adding Cracker Barrel and Whataburger.
That is major suckage.
It's Tulsa Hills that's half empty, not Riverwalk. And Riverwalk has actual construction going on in the phase 2 section. Tulsa Hills has a land for sale sign.
Tulsa Hills has two open businesses in Phase 2 and Phase 1 isn't even complete yet. Keep in mind Tulsa Hills started what, like 4 years after RWC?
I'd lay down money Tulsa Hills is pulling in at least twice the headcount without a single bar, theater, arcade or any other form of entertainment.
As of right now there should be 0 equivalence of the Riverwalk and Tulsa Hills. They are totally different, the only similarity is that they sell something. If the Riverwalk is trying to be Tulsa Hills they are failing horribly.
Tulsa Hills should not be compared to Riverwalk. One is Boutique type shops, another is Big-Box stores. I bet the average person might go to Target/Belk in the afternoon for some shopping and then Riverwalk in the evening for dinner and drinks.
Quote from: Composer on July 06, 2009, 05:20:19 PM
Tulsa Hills should not be compared to Riverwalk. One is Boutique type shops, another is Big-Box stores. I bet the average person might go to Target/Belk in the afternoon for some shopping and then Riverwalk in the evening for dinner and drinks.
Or the average degenerate would start at Riverwalk about 2pm and go stagger around through Target or Lowe's later that evening. ;)
Quote from: Conan71 on July 06, 2009, 11:59:29 PM
Or the average degenerate would start at Riverwalk about 2pm and go stagger around through Target or Lowe's later that evening. ;)
Instead of a pub crawl, it's a big box crawl? :P
As I was driving by Riverwalk this morning I noticed something kind of odd.
Actual buildings going up in phase 2.
There must be a swine flew alert in Tulsa this morning.
RiverWalk Crossing owner sues investor (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=53&articleid=20090908_298_0_Theown31886)
unclear how this affects progress
Quote from: BKDotCom on September 08, 2009, 09:52:16 PM
RiverWalk Crossing owner sues investor (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=53&articleid=20090908_298_0_Theown31886)
unclear how this affects progress
It's all part of the ongoing Jenks circus.....the big question is how the future DIP (ANB....who are these clowns?) will dispose of this property, to whom and what price below $28 million. There will never be a $41 million loan....
Looks like Jerry Gordon and his "partners" are duking it out.
Not a great time to be developing speculative mixed uses....Banksters are gonna get it in the a$$ in commercial real estate.
I agree with FOTD. Financing anything in this market is difficult. Factor in this is commercial real estate with a feuding operator / investor relationship - I suspect phase II is on hold for awhile.
That area is still a good investment imo. The demographics are incredible and will surely continue to grow over the next 15 plus years. One reason you are seeing the Indians wanting to build that mixed use development by the river and bridge, and the Spirit Bank people investing in the Jenks Main Street development now, and the reason for the plans for the River District. Even with the current recession that area has disposable income, and once the recession is over that area will likely take off like gangbusters. I predict that area of Jenks/Tulsa will become something like a cross between Tulsas Mid-town and the Woodland Hills shopping corridor in the next 20 years. A high concentration of shopping and office and residential,,, a mixed use, more pedestrian friendly, upscale and attractive version of whats around 71st. It will be the 3rd center of Tulsa, 71st and Memorial corridors, Downtown/Mid-Town, and the South Tulsa/Jenks areas. These river developments are looking at easily 30year investment scenarios. This current recession is a blip on the screen. Will likely see more during that time lol, and it wont matter. There arent many other places in the Tulsa area that will be better. You cant, not ever build or invest because your afraid of a recession here and there. Timing is important. But if you have the kind of demographics that area has and have a long time horizon, hang in there and you will do well.
Quote from: TheArtist on September 09, 2009, 10:10:56 AM
That area is still a good investment imo ...
You cant, not ever build or invest because your afraid of a recession here and there. Timing is important. But if you have the kind of demographics that area has and have a long time horizon, hang in there and you will do well.
There's a lot of wisdom in the above. Although sometimes the timing and duration of events can outlast your capital. ;)
As an aside, I'm having a hard time keeping track of which planned development is which in Jenks. Best I can tell there is the development south of the turnpike, a main street development, and Riverwalk.
What is the progress on the first two? I haven't noticed much activity south of the turnpike and I don't get to Jenks Main street very often.
MG
According to friends at Jenks planning:
The development to the South of the Creek TPK is an hold and has been scaled back some given the current state of the economy.
The development along Main, called the 'Village on Main' broke ground last month on its Phase I which included office and medical space. They are pursuing retail tenants and will likely start infrastructure improvements to extend Main 'Avenue' through the development and back to the aquarium. Looking at the design presentation, looks like a great development.
(http://www.villageonmain.com/images/map_aerial.jpg)
www.villageonmain.com
^10 years at best....don't hold your breath.
Actually FOTD, the land has been purchased piece by piece over the last few years. Phase I had groundbreaking last month and work has started on the office space identified by 'A' and I think 'B'. Once they start the infrastructure improvement that Jenks' has already approved plans and engineering on, the rest will fall into place quickly I'm sure. It's a mixed-use, walkable environment with residential space eventually going on 'E' I think. I'm no developer, but I think if King's Landing across the river and Riverwalk Phase I started filling in short order, it wont take long for this one.
Quote from: DowntownNow on September 09, 2009, 02:55:33 PM
According to friends at Jenks planning:
The development to the South of the Creek TPK is an hold and has been scaled back some given the current state of the economy.
The development along Main, called the 'Village on Main' broke ground last month on its Phase I which included office and medical space. They are pursuing retail tenants and will likely start infrastructure improvements to extend Main 'Avenue' through the development and back to the aquarium. Looking at the design presentation, looks like a great development.
(http://www.villageonmain.com/images/map_aerial.jpg)
www.villageonmain.com
From looking at the site plan do they really expect customers to hike in from the far parking lots or are they going to run shuttles constantly? Everyone is going to want to park at the front door. This is south Tulsa, lets not forget, land of convenient living and ample parking.
There is actually planned parking around each building and along the Main streeet extension. The hope is to have a more walkable urban type feel with much wider sidewalks and they will sometimes close off the Main street extension on weekend to host street parties, outdoor markets, etc. There is talk of a parking garage I heard but nothing concrete. Dont let the map fool you, the development is not that big over all...maybe 4 blocks long by 2.5 wide. There was also talk of shuttle service between this, Riverwalk, Kings and retail on the other side of the river and to the Casino...maybe.
Oh...those far parking lots are for the aquarium and the hotel thats already there on the other side of the levy.
Few more pics from their website
(http://www.villageonmain.com/images/temp_img.jpg)
(http://www.villageonmain.com/images/home_tout_1.jpg)
I can see walking along this and having fun at a bookstore, coffee shop, small bistro with sidewalk seating, etc
Quote from: DowntownNow on September 09, 2009, 03:44:29 PM
I'm no developer
Reeeeeeaaaalllyyy?????!!!!
Apparently some other members here seem to think so.
Overall the development looks to be about 900x1500 feet give or take...easily walkable
So I've noticed...
Could see a cool park in this somewhere, maybe like something BA has, or a community center for the arts....outdoor theater like Philbrook maybe.
I think the walk would be less than from the outer reaches of Woodland Hills Mall parking to the Mall itself.
Anyone have some same scale maps of our "favorite malls" to superimpose over the Village on Main?
Quote from: DowntownNow on September 09, 2009, 04:02:05 PM
Few more pics from their website
(http://www.villageonmain.com/images/temp_img.jpg)
(http://www.villageonmain.com/images/home_tout_1.jpg)
I can see walking along this and having fun at a bookstore, coffee shop, small bistro with sidewalk seating, etc
I hope they don't enforce the use of European licence plates on all of the cars.
Quote from: Gaspar on October 05, 2009, 04:27:17 PM
I hope they don't enforce the use of European licence plates on all of the cars.
I think they look cooler.
After favoring this area and frequenting it often, I've come to the conclusion that the whole thing is a pipe dream.
71st Street is a main artery. 96th Street is not. The Hills shopping center happened, Riverwalk Phase II (as it was originally planned) and the Driller Stadium development did not.
Stick a fork in it because that corner of Jenks is done. Riverwalk Phase I is now close to 50% vacant. TK's and Ale Haus have both shut their doors.
Main Street Jenks (96th Street) is an antique mall. It looks like a Mexican tourist town (except it is a lot cleaner, I'll give Jenks that).
There are hotter areas and safer trends to chase if you are a developer right now.
Ugh, I wish Tulsa Hills had followed a model more like this instead of an anywhere USA strip mall approach. Just my opinion, though.
Tulsa Hills has managed to be both pedestrian and automobile unfriendly. What kind of business model is that?
We might want to rethink our rail connection to B.A. as the first priority. There are so many opportunities along the west bank of the River terminating at downtown Jenks. The entire line could be destinations if done right.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20091008_32_E1_Sasaki938041
A-list designer to guide Jenks
The Village on Main is enlisting a prestigious urban design group.
By ROBERT EVATT World Staff Writer
Published: 10/8/2009 2:28 AM
Last Modified: 10/8/2009 4:17 AM
Sasaki Associates, a Boston-based architecture and urban design group, will help guide the look and feel of Jenks' new "front door."
Officials of Sasaki are meeting Thursday through Saturday with representatives of The Village on Main, the $60 million, 420,000-square-foot retail, office, residential and hotel project under development south of 96th Street near the Arkansas River.
Jenny Laubach, the media relations and marketing director for The Village on Main LLC, said gaining the assistance of Sasaki adds prestige to the center. "This is the equivalent of Cesar Pelli designing the BOK Center," she said.
Sasaki, which has designed buildings, urban districts, collegiate facilities and shopping centers across the globe, is no stranger to Oklahoma. The firm provided project management, technical landscape and civil engineering design services for the construction of the Oklahoma City Memorial.
Fred Merrill, a partner at Sasaki assigned to The Village on Main, said he is intrigued by the vision for the project as well as Jenks itself.
"The idea that The Village on Main is an extension of downtown Jenks is a very exciting opportunity to bring good urbanism to the city," Merrill said.
Sasaki won't fully design the project's eight buildings. Instead, the firm will develop general design guidelines for the area.
The goal is to make the area feel diverse yet unified, as well as give large tenants a degree of freedom in their building designs, said Bob Eggleston of The Village on Main LLC.
"Instead of having a design with one style, we wanted it to feel like a village with different styles within a certain set of guidelines," he said.
The goal is to incorporate "smart growth" — a building strategy in which developers use a limited amount of land in the most efficient way — with green areas, pedestrian-friendly spaces and a general feeling of openness.
Sasaki representatives also will meet with the major tenants signed so far — Eggleston said he cannot yet identify them publicly — plus political and economic leaders in the city. In addition, the group will attend the Art on Main festival in downtown Jenks on Saturday, Merrill said.
"We want to be quiet observers and see how people use the space, and see how The Village on Main can reinforce that," he said.
The development's first building, a 22,000-square-foot medical facility to be occupied by Utica Park Clinic, is under construction with a targeted completion date in May.
Approximately 110,000 square feet of retail space is reserved for the first phase of the project, Laubach said.
QuoteThe goal is to make the area feel diverse yet unified, as well as give large tenants a degree of freedom in their building designs, said Bob Eggleston of The Village on Main LLC.
Kind of makes me think that means the box stores will still look like box stores.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 07, 2009, 06:20:30 PM
Tulsa Hills has managed to be both pedestrian and automobile unfriendly. What kind of business model is that?
Well its a model that has brought in several large tenants (like Super Target) and some nice nationally recognized surprises like Books-a-Million and Buffalo Wild Wings.
Those three stores alone (forget the other 20-30 tenants) probably generate twice the revenue of all of downtown Jenks and the Riverwalk combined.
In short, the Hills has commerce. The 96th Street corridor has failure.
The 81st & Riverside Casino is the juggernaut of the area, and it is thusfar disconnected from what they are trying to do in Jenks. And I'm starting to wonder why they (developers) ever looked at Jenks. Its a small town.
Its not like Broken Arrow, which landed a Bass Pro Shop, or Downtown Tulsa, which got the Drillers.
I'm just venting here, because like you guys, I saw the Riverwalk and thought 'Hey! This is what Tulsa needs!!" Its beautiful and different, and not 'Box Chain' material.
But now, several years later... it is a failure.
--
Quote from: tshane250 on October 07, 2009, 05:09:05 PM
Ugh, I wish Tulsa Hills had followed a model more like this instead of an anywhere USA strip mall approach. Just my opinion, though.
They used a proven business model that attracted major tenants. Can't argue with that.
Unsightly? Perhaps? Pedestrian unfriendly? Yes.
Raking in the cash and drawing in the consumers? Oh yes. TRY to go to Buffalo Wild Wings on a Tuesday. I dare you.
The Riverwalk imo is just too small as it is to be the kind of "destination" shopping/dining/entertainment experience one would imagine it could be. Perhaps this phase 2 development will push it over the edge in that respect. Kind of reminds me of Brookside versus Utica Square. Utica Square has just enough shopping of the right mixes to make it a nice "hey lets go to Utica Square and do some shopping" Where as Brookside, as much as I would love for it to be that way, does not. Its more of an eat and hang out type place and the shops that are there are ones I would only go to if I were looking for something in particular, not just to browse/impulse buy or do my X-mas shopping for instance. And Brookside does have its club/bar/coffee shop elements as well.
Again, the Riverwalk has a few restaurant draws, but not enough mass of anything else to make it a true draw. Its unique set up and the fact that it is on the river helps in the uniqueness and desirable ambiance category, (we wouldnt be talking about it otherwise) but you need more than that.
As for the Main Street thing and why build there... demographics. Jenks may be a small city, but it still has the right demographics and is growing. There are a lot of small shopping/dining/office type developments on corners all over far South Tulsa. Plus I still say that the area could use a newer, more "upscale" shopping area. The Jenks/South Tulsa area is full of new middle and upper middle class, families and teens who like shopping for certain types of things and like the new "Town Square" type environments that have worked plenty well in these types of areas all over the country. Why not here as well?
Look at the income profiles presented in the middle of this page for the old River District proposal. (http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5272/riverdistrict3web.jpg)
Quote from: Hawkins on October 08, 2009, 05:29:21 PM
Well its a model that has brought in several large tenants (like Super Target) and some nice nationally recognized surprises like Books-a-Million and Buffalo Wild Wings.
Getting in and out of the parking lots is terrible. I understand the designers not wanting the lots to be the local drag strips but there are many instances where you think you are heading for an exit only to find yourself in the no-exit area of a maze. There are several instances of exits on the east side lots that only turn north. People wind up on the north bound side of the access road trying to go south. I have seen a few, my brother has seen several more. I expect the stores will mostly be successful since the alternative is 71st and 169 or a few other scattered locations that folks on the west side of (maybe) Lewis won't bother to go to. That doesn't make it a friendly place to go, just better than the combined hassle of the other locations.
One other thing..... Us urbafiles (or however you spell that) are fond of talking about pedestrian friendly this, pedestrian friendly that. One day when talking to the folks, they can be quite blunt sometimes, about downtown and pedestrian friendly developments, they said something to the effect "Why the hell would anyone want to walk around out in the rain, or cold or heat or wind or snow, when they can walk around in the air conditioned comfort of a mall? Especially in this climate!"
Now, I can come up with plenty of responses to that, but there is till a big hunk of truth in what they said. And that truth got me to thinking about what we are wanting to create downtown, or in these other pedestrian friendly districts.
Design and details matter.
We dont have large swaths of dense, pedestrian oriented, urban areas and or a lot of people used to walking and biking places in inclement weather. What areas we or developers are going to create should take these factors into account, otherwise these small, starter, pedestrian friendly, urban areas, will have a heck of a time competing with the malls and megastore, car oriented developments.
So I have thought about what would help these starter, pedestrian areas, be more likely to be used in our environment (cultural and meteorological ). I have found a lot of solutions in how they used to do things back when they had to walk.
Look at downtown in the old pics... Awnings eeeeeeverywhere. New buildings, even old ones they are refurbishing today, they tend to leave the awnings off. A long forgotten, but important detail imo. Loggias. I remember being in Paris, loggias everywhere, lining entire blocks of buildings. Especially ones that have lots of shops and ground level retail. Interconnected shops. Eureka Springs, Disney World,,, I can think of lots of places in which the shopping areas have shops and restaurants here and there that are connected to the store next door, on the inside. Some spots even have glass archways from the roof of one building over the street to the next building forming a kind of "street mall".
No need to have every inch of sidewalk covered with awnings or loggias, or every place connected. But you do want enough of them to make the weather less of a concern. Especially in areas where you want people to shop, and dine, and stroll. Its like we are trying to go back to an older way of doing things, but have sadly forgotten some of the important details that make these things work.
We need to pay more attention to these details in Downtown (around the ballpark, Blue Dome, Brady Arts, for instance). Lets not forget the awnings, loggias, etc. Look at the weather we have been having lately. If we want these areas to work in this city, new construction and developers should put these things in. And unfortunately most of what I have been seeing doesnt have it. One hopes that someone from "Sasaki Associates" is walking around in Jenks, in this downpour, right now lol.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 08, 2009, 06:51:41 PM
Getting in and out of the parking lots is terrible. I understand the designers not wanting the lots to be the local drag strips but there are many instances where you think you are heading for an exit only to find yourself in the no-exit area of a maze. There are several instances of exits on the east side lots that only turn north. People wind up on the north bound side of the access road trying to go south. I have seen a few, my brother has seen several more. I expect the stores will mostly be successful since the alternative is 71st and 169 or a few other scattered locations that folks on the west side of (maybe) Lewis won't bother to go to. That doesn't make it a friendly place to go, just better than the combined hassle of the other locations.
Spoken like a true Tulsa driver!! ::)
If you spent a year living in Dallas like I did, you would fall to your knees and kiss the asphalt upon returning to Tulsa and its simplicity of layout (including this Hills Shopping center parking lot).
In Dallas, it takes 45 minutes to go anywhere, and an hour to get back. U-turns are part of normal vehicular travel. Nothing is on a direct route. Lose your way back to the highway and you are lost forever.
Tulsa, and this "maze" in the Hills Shopping center is juvenile stuff, my friend. Juvenile, direction mobility 101 stuff.
Stop drinking the water. I've narrowed it down, and I think there might be something in the Tulsa water supply that docilifies local area residents driving behaviors.
Oh, but this does bring up my main point about why Downtown Jenks development is doomed.
96th street is not a main artery and people in Tulsa are afraid to cross it. 71st Street is, it is a connection of the simplicity of the South Tulsa layout, and that is why the Hills won the day.
On Black Friday this year, the Hills will be mega-jammed, the stores packed with shoppers, Buffalo Wild Wings and Smash Burgers will have lines out the door...
and the Riverwalk will be its usual wintertime ghost-town...
--
Quote from: Hawkins on October 08, 2009, 10:26:13 PM
Spoken like a true Tulsa driver!! ::)
If you spent a year living in Dallas like I did, you would fall to your knees and kiss the asphalt upon returning to Tulsa and its simplicity of layout (including this Hills Shopping center parking lot).
In Dallas, it takes 45 minutes to go anywhere, and an hour to get back. U-turns are part of normal vehicular travel. Nothing is on a direct route. Lose your way back to the highway and you are lost forever.
Tulsa, and this "maze" in the Hills Shopping center is juvenile stuff, my friend. Juvenile, direction mobility 101 stuff.
Stop drinking the water. I've narrowed it down, and I think there might be something in the Tulsa water supply that docilifies local area residents driving behaviors.
Oh, but this does bring up my main point about why Downtown Jenks development is doomed.
96th street is not a main artery and people in Tulsa are afraid to cross it. 71st Street is, it is a connection of the simplicity of the South Tulsa layout, and that is why the Hills won the day.
On Black Friday this year, the Hills will be mega-jammed, the stores packed with shoppers, Buffalo Wild Wings and Smash Burgers will have lines out the door...
and the Riverwalk will be its usual wintertime ghost-town...
--
That's why I was lucky I got to spend three years in Houston; it made me appreciate the simplicity of Tulsa traffic. I hear people moan and complain about the BA or 169 or I-44, then I remind myself of what the Katy Freeway in Houston was like before they widened it in the early nineties and chuckle at some of the people here.
Northern VA made me appreciate it as well; I-66 coming out of the Beltway towards Herndon/Manassas about 4pm is taking your life into your own hands.
Quote from: Hawkins on October 08, 2009, 10:26:13 PM
Spoken like a true Tulsa driver!! ::)
If you spent a year living in Dallas like I did, you would fall to your knees and kiss the asphalt upon returning to Tulsa and its simplicity of layout (including this Hills Shopping center parking lot).
I deliberately chose NOT to look for employment in Dallas. They are, however, jumping ahead of Tulsa in Light Rail transportation. Yep, Tulsa is easy to navigate. I think it's a plus, not a detractor.
In Dallas, it takes 45 minutes to go anywhere, and an hour to get back. U-turns are part of normal vehicular travel. Nothing is on a direct route. Lose your way back to the highway and you are lost forever.
I grew up in southeast PA, near Philadelphia. In PA the roads were made where the cows walked. In many places, literally. The roads go around trees. In the 30s, Gov Pinchot wanted PA to have the greatest roads. They graded them and put down stones and oil. Good for the time. By the early 70s when our family moved to OK, many PA roads were the same except for many more layers of stone and oil. Up and down and twisty, great for sports cars. If you don't follow route numbers, you will be hopelessly lost. The concept is easy for me.
Tulsa, and this "maze" in the Hills Shopping center is juvenile stuff, my friend. Juvenile, direction mobility 101 stuff.
I am presently home, indicating I did not stay in the maze. There are many things I can do that I don't like. Just because Dallas is worse doesn't negate the fact that the parking in Tulsa Hills is still a bad design. The Hills is automobile dependent. It should be automobile friendly.
Stop drinking the water. I've narrowed it down, and I think there might be something in the Tulsa water supply that docilifies local area residents driving behaviors.
I only occasionally drink Tulsa water, then only the filtered stuff from the coffee/hot water machine at work. Tulsa drivers drive me nuts.
Oh, but this does bring up my main point about why Downtown Jenks development is doomed.
96th street is not a main artery and people in Tulsa are afraid to cross it. 71st Street is, it is a connection of the simplicity of the South Tulsa layout, and that is why the Hills won the day.
Downtown Jenks is kind of what many here promote, store fronts to the sidewalk, a little on street parking, mom and pop shops. Mostly nothing I am interested in though. There used to be a hardware store but it went away long ago. Housing is not far away in the older part of town. I won't count all the new development in the "suburbs of Jenks" for this discussion. Access to Jenks via the 96th street bridge is about as easy as it gets from Riverside. I think success is more a matter of Tulsans like big box stores and the convenience (in spite of the parking lot) of the Hills. I'm not sure what this means to the development of downtown Tulsa.
On Black Friday this year, the Hills will be mega-jammed, the stores packed with shoppers, Buffalo Wild Wings and Smash Burgers will have lines out the door...
and the Riverwalk will be its usual wintertime ghost-town...
--
Twenty years....that's how long before Jinx gets it's Utica Square.
Long wait.
In the picture ofMain Street it looks like they will flood Jenks...the picture is looking west..the river should be behind you...Im just sayin'
Quote from: ARGUS on October 09, 2009, 09:30:37 AM
In the picture ofMain Street it looks like they will flood Jenks...the picture is looking west..the river should be behind you...Im just sayin'
The levy runs parallel to the Creek Turnpike between Jenks downtown and the turnpike until about Elm/Peoria when the levy turns a little north.
Quote from: FOTD on October 09, 2009, 12:50:47 AM
Twenty years....that's how long before Jinx gets it's Utica Square.
Long wait.
The engineering solicitations are presently on the street...seems to be moving
Quote from: Vision 2025 on October 09, 2009, 02:16:47 PM
The engineering solicitations are presently on the street...seems to be moving
Engineers and architects do not a development make. Bankers and users will help. But after this commercial property meltdown it will be years before the Jinx plays out.
Looks like the Creeks plan on filling out the the gap in Riverwalk Crossing (contruction) / get tenants :
http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/RiverWalk_Crossing_aims_for_comeback_with_new_tenants/20130427_32_E1_JENKSL104634
Edit: OK, there's no "plan" per-say... but that's their "goal"
Quote from: BKDotCom on April 27, 2013, 07:27:59 AM
Looks like the Creeks plan on filling out the the gap in Riverwalk Crossing (contruction) / get tenants :
http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/RiverWalk_Crossing_aims_for_comeback_with_new_tenants/20130427_32_E1_JENKSL104634
Edit: OK, there's no "plan" per-say... but that's their "goal"
It is per se'
Quote from: BKDotCom on April 30, 2013, 09:58:45 PM
(http://t.qkme.me/3p8lec.jpg)
You got busted big time, BK!
(http://gamecola.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Grammar_Police_by_Rysis.jpg)