Isn't it strange that Oklahoma collects tolls on the interstates? In other states you usually have a toll road that runs parallel to the publicly funded roads.
Are they double dipping by taking both tolls and federal highway funds or is there another reason for it?
Toll roads on interstates are roads that were in place before the Interstate System came into being. They exempted the roads and have an agreement for specifications and maintenance with the States while alloted an equivalent amount of Federal dollars. Essentially, the states that took the initiative were rewarded:
quote:
Today, the 46,730-mile Interstate System includes approximately 2,900 miles of turnpikes.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/tollroad.htm
Google is your friend.
Oklahoma is hardly the only state that collects tolls on interstates.
FWIW, I-35 is a toll road through most of it's run from southern Kansas to Kansas City.
There is a publicly funded road roughly adjacent to I-44: Route 66.
Dang it people, follow the link... its all in there:
quote:
Connecticut Turnpike, 98 miles: the section from the New York State line to Old Lyme, except the section at New Haven.
*Florida: Sunshine State Parkway, 41 miles: the northern portion, from Fort Pierce to Palm Beach.
Illinois: North Illinois Turnpike (Chicago-Rockford-Beloit), 47 miles: The northern portion, from south of Barrington to near Beloit.
Illinois: Tri-State Turnpike, 73 miles: from Calumet Expressway west and north around Chicago to the Wisconsin State line near U.S. 41, including a 5-mile spur near Deerfield to Edens Expressway.
*Indiana Turnpike, 151 miles: the entire route from the Ohio State line to the Illinois State line.
*Kansas Turnpike, 184 miles: from Kansas City to Topeka and from Emporia to the Oklahoma State line (the entire route except the Topeka-Emporia section).
*Kentucky Turnpike, 123 miles: from Boston to East Lee (the entire route except a short section at the west end).
*New Hampshire Turnpike, 15 miles: The entire route from Seabrook to Portsmouth.
*New Jersey Turnpike, 8 miles: the section from Newark Airport to Holland Tunnel.
*New York Thruway, 506 miles: the entire route from Yonkers to the Pennsylvania State line near Erie.
New York: Niagara Thruway, 8 miles: a section in Buffalo.
New York: New England Thruway, 4 miles: a section in New Rochelle.
*Ohio Turnpike, 173 miles: from the Indiana State line to southwest of Cleveland and from west of Youngstown to the Pennsylvania State line (the entire route except the Cleveland-Youngstown section).
*Oklahoma, Turner Turnpike, 177 miles: the entire route from Oklahoma City to the Missouri State line near Joplin.
*Pennsylvania Turnpike, 359 miles: from the Ohio State line to Bristol (the entire route except a short section at the eastern end).
Virginia: the Richmond-Petersburg toll road, 35 miles: the entire route from Richmond to Petersburg.
That link missed at least one toll road. I-88 is toll from Chicago to about Dixon, Ill.
That list was from a 1957 press release. Not sure what changed to exempt the Reagan Memorial Tollway (I-88) but the name suggests a more recent change. I'm sure there are others that have changed since 1957 which garner a different explanation which you are more than welcome to locate.
But, pertaining to the Oklahoma turnpikes and in general - the above applies.
Oklahoma and FL. have tons of toll roads. They are supposted become "free" roads when they are paid off but few do. The I-30 Dallas-Fort Worth turnpike became a free road when it was paid off around 1977. The gas tax is supposted to pay for the roads along with the license fees. Toll roads leave a sour taste in many people's mouth. All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads. OKC has 2 free interstates I-35 & I-40. Those are the only two free highways in the state.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Oklahoma and FL. have tons of toll roads. They are supposted become "free" roads when they are paid off but few do. The I-30 Dallas-Fort Worth turnpike became a free road when it was paid off around 1977. The gas tax is supposted to pay for the roads along with the license fees. Toll roads leave a sour taste in many people's mouth. All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads. OKC has 2 free interstates I-35 & I-40. Those are the only two free highways in the state.
Roads that are turnpikes do not collect gas tax and license fees, those are returned to the state to be spent on other roads.
sauerkraut wrote:
All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.
<end clip>
U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?
With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
sauerkraut wrote:
All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.
<end clip>
U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?
With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.
OK but U.S. 75 has alot of cross streets and it's slow driving/traffic choked road. U.S. 169 turns into a narrow 2-lane road north of Oologah. Those can be called major roads but I was thinking more along the lines of limeted access roads like freeways. All the other highways around Tulsa are toll roads U.S. 412 west thru Keystone Lake, I-44 Will Rogers Turnpike,-- I-44 Turner Turnpike, U.S. 75 south of Henyetta is the Indian Nation TurnPike. Highway 64 (the BA expressway) turns into the Muskogee Turnpike. Tulsa is surrounded by toll roads. Tulsa is second only to Orlando FL in number of toll roads. I'm old fashioned I like free roads, but that's just me.. Add up the amount of money people spend who drive toll roads daily, it really adds up..[B)]
Chicago has 5 Toll roads:
Chicago Skyway
North-South Tollway
Northwest Tollway
Ronald Reagan Memorial Tollway
Tri-State Tollway
Tulsa has the Creek, Turner, and Will Rogers.
So based on that alone I can say you are incorrect. I didnt even look at any other cities to verify any other claims.
It is also worth noting that many cities would kill for our highway infrastructure. Even cities like Albuquerque with intersecting interstates and serving as the state capital lack a highway system as good as Tulsa's. THATS why we have toll roads.
Its about the only tax the government levies that actually makes sense. Take money from road users to use on roads.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Chicago has 5 Toll roads:
Chicago Skyway
North-South Tollway
Northwest Tollway
Ronald Reagan Memorial Tollway
Tri-State Tollway
Tulsa has the Creek, Turner, and Will Rogers.
So based on that alone I can say you are incorrect. I didnt even look at any other cities to verify any other claims.
It is also worth noting that many cities would kill for our highway infrastructure. Even cities like Albuquerque with intersecting interstates and serving as the state capital lack a highway system as good as Tulsa's. THATS why we have toll roads.
Its about the only tax the government levies that actually makes sense. Take money from road users to use on roads.
What about that U.S. 412 Keystone Lake toll road? What about the Muskogee Turnpike? What about the Creek Turnpike? Those are all around Tulsa. Did you forget about those?
May I add, Tulsa roads are in poor shape, pot holes, chuck holes, too narrow, too old. The I-44 section thru Tulsa is old and narrow and needs to be widened. Lewis & Peoria are narrow roads full of holes and bumps. The RiverSide jogging Trail is also in poor shape full of pot holes, cracks, narrow, crumbling and badly needs a rebuild. There's alot of road work that needs to be done. or so it seems to me. thanx.
412 Starts as a toll road some 40 miles outside of Tulsa, out past Keystone lake (which I am at nearly every weekend toll free). May as well count the Cherokee and Indian nation turnpikes if we are counting that far outside of town.
And yes I did forget about the Muskogee turnpike. However, it should be noted that the Will Roger's and the Turner are the same road, so lets just call that even.
The Creek was specifically mentioned.
- - -
Yes, there are lots of turnpikes in and around Tulsa. My major problem over and over is someone sees something they do not like so they invent statistics and exercise great hyperbole while presenting the issue. "Tulsa is second in the nation for toll roads," while Tulsa certainly has a lot of toll roads and probably the most for a city its size - you clearly had no real basis for that statement.
again, Tulsa has lots of Toll roads because that is the best way to fund highway systems. The users pay for the road. Just like those who use water, electricity, or any other product are expected to pay for it. Without such projects Tulsa would have a single link (I-44) to operate commerce and the Creek would not exist.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
May I add, Tulsa roads are in poor shape, pot holes, chuck holes, too narrow, too old. The I-44 section thru Tulsa is old and narrow and needs to be widened. Lewis & Peoria are narrow roads full of holes and bumps. The RiverSide jogging Trail is also in poor shape full of pot holes, cracks, narrow, crumbling and badly needs a rebuild. There's alot of road work that needs to be done. or so it seems to me. thanx.
Both I-44 and the Riverside trails already have promised funding.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
May I add, Tulsa roads are in poor shape, pot holes, chuck holes, too narrow, too old. The I-44 section thru Tulsa is old and narrow and needs to be widened. Lewis & Peoria are narrow roads full of holes and bumps. The RiverSide jogging Trail is also in poor shape full of pot holes, cracks, narrow, crumbling and badly needs a rebuild. There's alot of road work that needs to be done. or so it seems to me. thanx.
Both I-44 and the Riverside trails already have promised funding.
And most of Peoria has just been rebuilt.
Lewis does still need work.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
sauerkraut wrote:
All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.
<end clip>
U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?
With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.
U.S. 75 to Texas is not an Interstate, although short portions of it are limited access.
There are at least a dozen stop lights between Glenpool and the Texas border. Interstate Highways seem to lack Traffic Lights.
The fact is Tulsa is the only major city in the U.S. lacking access to a FREE interstate highway.
ALL Interstates to or from Tulsa are
Toll-ways.
Kind along the same historical hose-job on Tulsa as the largest city in the U.S. to lack a four-year state supported college until OSU-Tulsa absorbed UCAT.
Just kind of make you wonder: WHY??????
It's more of the
TULSA PREMIUM!
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
sauerkraut wrote:
All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.
<end clip>
U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?
With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.
U.S. 75 to Texas is not an Interstate, although short portions of it are limited access.
There are at least a dozen stop lights between Glenpool and the Texas border. Interstate Highways seem to lack Traffic Lights.
The fact is Tulsa is the only major city in the U.S. lacking access to a FREE interstate highway.
ALL Interstates to or from Tulsa are Toll-ways.
Kind along the same historical hose-job on Tulsa as the largest city in the U.S. to lack a four-year state supported college until OSU-Tulsa absorbed UCAT.
Just kind of make you wonder: WHY??????
It's more of the TULSA PREMIUM!
[}:)]
It's a State of Oklahoma Screw Job on it's second largest city. We pay fuel taxes just the same as the rest of the state, but our major access roads are all turnpikes.
Just the same as the State of Oklahoma does not allow a real four year University in Tulsa and we just recently got a quasi-public hospital and we have no passenger rail access. In all cases we are the largest or among the largest cities in the nation without such services, and all are state driven issues, not local.
An excellent example is that our fuel taxes are used for state matching funds to pay for passenger rail service to Oklahoma City, which has two non-toll interstates while we have no free interstates and no rail service. A metro region with three public four year Universities and with two long standing public hospital complexes while only being 1/3 larger than our Metro area.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
sauerkraut wrote:
All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.
<end clip>
U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?
With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.
U.S. 75 to Texas is not an Interstate, although short portions of it are limited access.
There are at least a dozen stop lights between Glenpool and the Texas border. Interstate Highways seem to lack Traffic Lights.
The fact is Tulsa is the only major city in the U.S. lacking access to a FREE interstate highway.
ALL Interstates to or from Tulsa are Toll-ways.
Kind along the same historical hose-job on Tulsa as the largest city in the U.S. to lack a four-year state supported college until OSU-Tulsa absorbed UCAT.
Just kind of make you wonder: WHY??????
It's more of the TULSA PREMIUM!
[}:)]
It's a State of Oklahoma Screw Job on it's second largest city. We pay fuel taxes just the same as the rest of the state, but our major access roads are all turnpikes.
Just the same as the State of Oklahoma does not allow a real four year University in Tulsa and we just recently got a quasi-public hospital and we have no passenger rail access. In all cases we are the largest or among the largest cities in the nation without such services, and all are state driven issues, not local.
An excellent example is that our fuel taxes are used for state matching funds to pay for passenger rail service to Oklahoma City, which has two non-toll interstates while we have no free interstates and no rail service. A metro region with three public four year Universities and with two long standing public hospital complexes while only being 1/3 larger than our Metro area.
Good analysis, SWAKE.
But, still the questions remain:
WHY???Why haven't our state legislators fought harder to get a real four-year university for Tulsa? It was 1982 before that cobbled-together abortion of a University called UCAT was formed. What happened between 1907 and 2007???
Why haven't our state legislators fought harder for the cornucopia of road-building money that has rained down the past 50 years on Oklahoma City building six lane highways in every direction, and also the rural areas building 4 lane highways from nowhere to next-to-nowhere?
Why was I-44 widening not begun until 25 years after totally traffic saturation? Morning and night, there is a tie-up on the stretch between Sheridan and Peoria, going east or west?
Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, Oh why????
It's the
TULSA PREMIUM![8]
I think the state of Oklahoma should turn at least two of the interstates around Tulsa into free interstates. All the major interstates around Tulsa are toll roads and also some non-interstate roads are toll roads, such as U.S. highway 412 and the BA expressway eastbound turns into a toll road. If nothing else the state should just make I-44 a free road from OKC to the Missouri state line, that would be a big break to the people of Oklahoma. Orlando FL. is worse, they have toll roads all over, even roads inside the Orlando city limet are toll roads. Chicago has alot of toll roads but they also have a few free roads that ya can take.
That sounds great, sauerkraut, but what would you replace that lost revenue with if you got rid of the toll roads?
Oklahoma has a hard enough time keeping its roads up to snuff with the revenue sources it already has.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
That sounds great, sauerkraut, but what would you replace that lost revenue with if you got rid of the toll roads?
Oklahoma has a hard enough time keeping its roads up to snuff with the revenue sources it already has.
I looked up the OTA budget once, and about .06 a gallon gas tax would be enough to replace all toll revenue for OTA.
So your $2.79 a gallon gas today would become $2.85.
I guess I really do not understand what the problem is, you use the road... you pay for it.
If we paid another 6 cents in gas taxes we would only get a portion of that back... I believe it would be like 4 cents. Then you would complain about OKC taking our money for their roads. If SemGroup donated an entirely new road Shadows should complain about the sign that said so.
It does suck that Tulsa has more toll roads than other places, but its nice that Tulsa has such nice highway infrastructure for a city its size. Certainly without Tulsans paying for it no one else would.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
That sounds great, sauerkraut, but what would you replace that lost revenue with if you got rid of the toll roads?
Oklahoma has a hard enough time keeping its roads up to snuff with the revenue sources it already has.
The other states can do it with free roads, just copy their system. Michigan has no toll roads, Ohio only has the "Ohio Turnpike" that runs thru the north part of the state. Many states have no toll roads at all...Once a toll road is paid off why not let it become free like the Dallas-Fort Worth I-30 toll road did in 1976. I don't think Missouri has any toll roads. People who have to use toll roads every day spend a ton of money on tolls, they really add up.
From Wikipedia:
"A two-axle vehicle currently pays $3.50 ($3.35 with Pikepass) to drive the full length of the Turnpike. When adjusted for inflation, tolls have fallen over 60% to 4 cents per mile, among the cheapest in the nation. (In 2005 dollars, the toll was $9.00 in 1953.) However, despite being paid off, the Turner Turnpike will remain tolled, as Oklahoma does not toll its roads on a "per road" basis, instead pooling all toll revenue to apply toward paying off all such projects. This is called cross pledging, which has allowed OTA to build many turnpikes that would not be economically feasible alone."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Turnpike (//%22http://%22)
This debate has gone on since I started driving in 1979. I have always looked at it as a cashcow for the OTA to build mor turnpikes.
quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan
From Wikipedia:
"A two-axle vehicle currently pays $3.50 ($3.35 with Pikepass) to drive the full length of the Turnpike. When adjusted for inflation, tolls have fallen over 60% to 4 cents per mile, among the cheapest in the nation. (In 2005 dollars, the toll was $9.00 in 1953.) However, despite being paid off, the Turner Turnpike will remain tolled, as Oklahoma does not toll its roads on a "per road" basis, instead pooling all toll revenue to apply toward paying off all such projects. This is called cross pledging, which has allowed OTA to build many turnpikes that would not be economically feasible alone."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Turnpike (//%22http://%22)
This debate has gone on since I started driving in 1979. I have always looked at it as a cashcow for the OTA to build mor turnpikes.
That's intresting how Oklahoma does it, but it makes no sense- Why not make a toll road A FREE road when it's paid off? The other highways that are not paid off keep the toll. That is much more logical, but the turnpike agency does not want the roads to go free because many jobs are on the line.. It makes no sense to keep all toll roads in the whole state as toll roads till the other toll roads are paid off. Much of the toll goes to support the workers wages. The Ohio TurnPike employees who man the toll booths make over $17.00 an hour. I dunno what what Oklahoma toll workers get...IMO the reason for the toll roads is to make another gov't agency and another way to collect money for wages of the people who work at the turnpike agency. If they would make all the toll roads free roads in Oklahoma many people would be out of a high paying job. JMO, thanx.[B)]
To everyone's surprise I disagree.
I'm a fan of use taxes. The fair should be high enough to cover maintenance on the roadway. The practice of subsidizing additional roadways with the old is easily questioned, but so long as that remains a minimal portion of revenue I'm ok with it. Its as good a method as any to help fund those projects (though they should become toll roads and pay for themselves in the future, it will cut back on the states bond expense).
Downloading the financials for the PikePass Authority:
http://www.pikepass.com/about/traffic/cafr.htm
all 10 megs of it.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan
From Wikipedia:
"A two-axle vehicle currently pays $3.50 ($3.35 with Pikepass) to drive the full length of the Turnpike. When adjusted for inflation, tolls have fallen over 60% to 4 cents per mile, among the cheapest in the nation. (In 2005 dollars, the toll was $9.00 in 1953.) However, despite being paid off, the Turner Turnpike will remain tolled, as Oklahoma does not toll its roads on a "per road" basis, instead pooling all toll revenue to apply toward paying off all such projects. This is called cross pledging, which has allowed OTA to build many turnpikes that would not be economically feasible alone."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_Turnpike (//%22http://%22)
This debate has gone on since I started driving in 1979. I have always looked at it as a cashcow for the OTA to build mor turnpikes.
That's intresting how Oklahoma does it, but it makes no sense- Why not make a toll road A FREE road when it's paid off? The other highways that are not paid off keep the toll. That is much more logical, but the turnpike agency does not want the roads to go free because many jobs are on the line.. It makes no sense to keep all toll roads in the whole state as toll roads till the other toll roads are paid off. Much of the toll goes to support the workers wages. The Ohio TurnPike employees who man the toll booths make over $17.00 an hour. I dunno what what Oklahoma toll workers get...IMO the reason for the toll roads is to make another gov't agency and another way to collect money for wages of the people who work at the turnpike agency. If they would make all the toll roads free roads in Oklahoma many people would be out of a high paying job. JMO, thanx.[B)]
It also allows for the existing road to pay for the new road instead of financing the road projects.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
To everyone's surprise I disagree.
I'm a fan of use taxes. The fair should be high enough to cover maintenance on the roadway. The practice of subsidizing additional roadways with the old is easily questioned, but so long as that remains a minimal portion of revenue I'm ok with it. Its as good a method as any to help fund those projects (though they should become toll roads and pay for themselves in the future, it will cut back on the states bond expense).
Downloading the financials for the PikePass Authority:
http://www.pikepass.com/about/traffic/cafr.htm
all 10 megs of it.
Gasoline taxes are also use-taxes. People who buy gasoline use the roads. I do not like toll roads. The toll paying is a hassle, and as I see it if other states can have free interstate highways why can't Oklahoma? Much of the money for the interstate systems comes from the fed gov't anyhoo. People who have to drive toll roads every day spend alot of money on them, if you drive $2.00 worth of toll road mileage one way, that's $4.00 a day round trip, 5 days a week, 4 weeks in a month, times 12 months. That's quite a bundle. You do the math, my brain is on the fritz today... That's quite a chunk of green. Plus that driver still has to pay gas taxes and vehicle license fees. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I just do-not like toll roads and I'm glad we have no toll roads in central Ohio. or so it seems to me, thanx.[B)]
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
sauerkraut wrote:
All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.
<end clip>
U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?
With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.
75 and 169 north of town dwindle into two-laners at the Kansas line and Oologah respectively, and neither is the main route to any major cities. 169 ends at the Creek/Memorial interchange, and 75 south turns into a 2 lane south of I-40. The 75 roadway does "turn into" the Indian Nation Turnpike...another toll road.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
QuoteOriginally posted by rwarn17588
I don't think Missouri has any toll roads.
They currently do not, but there are plans to build a toll road in southwest MO that connects to Arkansas. This will be the first toll road in Arkansas as well.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
QuoteGasoline taxes are also use-taxes. People who buy gasoline use the roads. I do not like toll roads. The toll paying is a hassle, and as I see it if other states can have free interstate highways why can't Oklahoma? Much of the money for the interstate systems comes from the fed gov't anyhoo. People who have to drive toll roads every day spend alot of money on them, if you drive $2.00 worth of toll road mileage one way, that's $4.00 a day round trip, 5 days a week, 4 weeks in a month, times 12 months. That's quite a bundle. You do the math, my brain is on the fritz today... That's quite a chunk of green. Plus that driver still has to pay gas taxes and vehicle license fees. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I just do-not like toll roads and I'm glad we have no toll roads in central Ohio. or so it seems to me, thanx.[B)]
Well this argument is going in circles, but lets do it one more time...
1) Gas taxes charge for use of gas... not roads. Boats, lawn mowers, and other vehicles pay this tax. Also, gas use of vehicles is not necessarily proportional to road use. It is strong indication, but not indicative.
Not to mention it pays for a road, not necessarily the road you are using. For instance, the Indian Nation turnpike gets less traffic than 169 in Tulsa... so Tulsan's gas tax money would go to subsidize that road moreso than it is now. Currently, it is easy to account for the revenue/expense of a given road and insure its users pay the costs. A use tax is the most efficient tax in economics.
2) Paying the toll is no hassle at all thanks to the Pikepass system, why anyone that lives in the state would not have one is beyond me.
3) Oklahoma can have free interstates if it so chooses. The result of which would mean the plethora of other 4 lane Toll Roads you listed would probably not exist. The money is diverted from the federal government to reward Oklahoma for taking the initiative in forming a toll roads before the introduction of the EIS back in the day. So Oklahoma comes out ahead.
4) The toll roads have now been in place for 50 years. Meaning nearly everyone who lives along them and has a job requiring their utilization did so with full knowledge.
- - -
The system is not perfect. But Oklahoma is not Ohio. We do not have the population, the density, nor the political representation warranting extra funds to support major highway expansion. Without doing it largely by ourselves, Oklahoma would have exactly 2 four lane roads in the state.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
QuoteGasoline taxes are also use-taxes. People who buy gasoline use the roads. I do not like toll roads. The toll paying is a hassle, and as I see it if other states can have free interstate highways why can't Oklahoma? Much of the money for the interstate systems comes from the fed gov't anyhoo. People who have to drive toll roads every day spend alot of money on them, if you drive $2.00 worth of toll road mileage one way, that's $4.00 a day round trip, 5 days a week, 4 weeks in a month, times 12 months. That's quite a bundle. You do the math, my brain is on the fritz today... That's quite a chunk of green. Plus that driver still has to pay gas taxes and vehicle license fees. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I just do-not like toll roads and I'm glad we have no toll roads in central Ohio. or so it seems to me, thanx.[B)]
Well this argument is going in circles, but lets do it one more time...
1) Gas taxes charge for use of gas... not roads. Boats, lawn mowers, and other vehicles pay this tax. Also, gas use of vehicles is not necessarily proportional to road use. It is strong indication, but not indicative.
Not to mention it pays for a road, not necessarily the road you are using. For instance, the Indian Nation turnpike gets less traffic than 169 in Tulsa... so Tulsan's gas tax money would go to subsidize that road moreso than it is now. Currently, it is easy to account for the revenue/expense of a given road and insure its users pay the costs. A use tax is the most efficient tax in economics.
2) Paying the toll is no hassle at all thanks to the Pikepass system, why anyone that lives in the state would not have one is beyond me.
3) Oklahoma can have free interstates if it so chooses. The result of which would mean the plethora of other 4 lane Toll Roads you listed would probably not exist. The money is diverted from the federal government to reward Oklahoma for taking the initiative in forming a toll roads before the introduction of the EIS back in the day. So Oklahoma comes out ahead.
4) The toll roads have now been in place for 50 years. Meaning nearly everyone who lives along them and has a job requiring their utilization did so with full knowledge.
- - -
The system is not perfect. But Oklahoma is not Ohio. We do not have the population, the density, nor the political representation warranting extra funds to support major highway expansion. Without doing it largely by ourselves, Oklahoma would have exactly 2 four lane roads in the state.
In Ohio we hiked our gasoline tax about two years ago for "Roads & Bridges" (repair & upkeep)- Our fuel taxes are used for our roads, I just assumed Oklahoma's fuel taxes also went for roads to.-guess not- As for the comment that toll roads have been around for 50 years in Oklahoma and everyone who has job and needs to utilize toll roads knew it- In most cases they offten promise to remove the tolls and make the roads free after a certain amount of time has passed, or the roads get paid off. I'd bet the people 50 years ago never thought the tolls would become a perm. thing. However, I don't know how it's done in Oklahoma- I know that in most states toll roads become free roads when they are paid off. (I-30 in Texas is an example of a toll road going free). I for one do not like toll roads. But, that's just me.[B)]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
QuoteGasoline taxes are also use-taxes. People who buy gasoline use the roads. I do not like toll roads. The toll paying is a hassle, and as I see it if other states can have free interstate highways why can't Oklahoma? Much of the money for the interstate systems comes from the fed gov't anyhoo. People who have to drive toll roads every day spend alot of money on them, if you drive $2.00 worth of toll road mileage one way, that's $4.00 a day round trip, 5 days a week, 4 weeks in a month, times 12 months. That's quite a bundle. You do the math, my brain is on the fritz today... That's quite a chunk of green. Plus that driver still has to pay gas taxes and vehicle license fees. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I just do-not like toll roads and I'm glad we have no toll roads in central Ohio. or so it seems to me, thanx.[B)]
Well this argument is going in circles, but lets do it one more time...
1) Gas taxes charge for use of gas... not roads. Boats, lawn mowers, and other vehicles pay this tax. Also, gas use of vehicles is not necessarily proportional to road use. It is strong indication, but not indicative.
Not to mention it pays for a road, not necessarily the road you are using. For instance, the Indian Nation turnpike gets less traffic than 169 in Tulsa... so Tulsan's gas tax money would go to subsidize that road moreso than it is now. Currently, it is easy to account for the revenue/expense of a given road and insure its users pay the costs. A use tax is the most efficient tax in economics.
2) Paying the toll is no hassle at all thanks to the Pikepass system, why anyone that lives in the state would not have one is beyond me.
3) Oklahoma can have free interstates if it so chooses. The result of which would mean the plethora of other 4 lane Toll Roads you listed would probably not exist. The money is diverted from the federal government to reward Oklahoma for taking the initiative in forming a toll roads before the introduction of the EIS back in the day. So Oklahoma comes out ahead.
4) The toll roads have now been in place for 50 years. Meaning nearly everyone who lives along them and has a job requiring their utilization did so with full knowledge.
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The system is not perfect. But Oklahoma is not Ohio. We do not have the population, the density, nor the political representation warranting extra funds to support major highway expansion. Without doing it largely by ourselves, Oklahoma would have exactly 2 four lane roads in the state.
In Ohio we hiked our gasoline tax about two years ago for "Roads & Bridges" (repair & upkeep)- Our fuel taxes are used for our roads, I just assumed Oklahoma's fuel taxes also went for roads to.-guess not- As for the comment that toll roads have been around for 50 years in Oklahoma and everyone who has job and needs to utilize toll roads knew it- In most cases they offten promise to remove the tolls and make the roads free after a certain amount of time has passed, or the roads get paid off. I'd bet the people 50 years ago never thought the tolls would become a perm. thing. However, I don't know how it's done in Oklahoma- I know that in most states toll roads become free roads when they are paid off. (I-30 in Texas is an example of a toll road going free). I for one do not like toll roads. But, that's just me.[B)]
50 years ago, when the Turner Turnpike was started, the politicians promised that the turnpike would be a free road once it was paid off.
Within a year of the formation of the Oklahoma Turdpike Authority, the rules of the authority were changed to allow cross-pledging of the turnpike tolls to any FUTURE turnpikes.
This resulted in a Turnpike building binge that we have suffered with ever since. For instance, since it really doesn't GO anywhere, the Indian Nations Turnpike should NEVER have been built. Why on earth would anyone feel the need to connect Henryetta to McAlester to Bugtussle, and then connect to PARIS, TEXAS??
There was a long, scholarly article "celebrating" 50 years of the Turner Turnpike, published in the Lorton's Worldon the 50th anniversary of the Turnpike.
In the article, the former Mayor of Chandler during the Turner Turnpike construction era was interviewed, as he was very young man when the Turnpike plans were first announced.
He was quoted as saying he "regreted" that he told citizens groups that the Turnpike would someday be a free road.
The OTA is a honey pot for connected politicos and their crony construction companies and associated crony sub-contractors.
I think you nailed it- it's a Honey Pot for the OTA, a big agency that does not want to go out of business. OTA workers don't want to lose their jobs. Once they start a toll road they don't want to end the tolls. The always find excuses to keep the road a toll road. The tolls keep going up to.
The trend nationwide is for more NEW roads to be toll. Texas is building or planning to build them all over the place.
The national highway trust fund will go negative as early as next year because the tax has not been adjusted for inflation.
As fuel becomes more expensive, people MAY begin to buy more fuel efficient cars putting even more downward pressure on fuel tax revenue.
Since taxes are on a percentage basis... you really do not need to adjust them for inflation.
No-brainer for me... raise diesel taxes in Oklahoma.
That's an idea, raise Diesel taxes and let the truckers with their big rigs pay for the roads.[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
That's an idea, raise Diesel taxes and let the truckers with their big rigs pay for the roads.[:)]
Diesel tax is lower than unleaded in Oklahoma. Dumb.
The result of that would be the goods they carry will end up costing you more due to increased costs of delivery. So the tax increase you propose will come out of your pocketbook.
quote:
Originally posted by joiei
The result of that would be the goods they carry will end up costing you more due to increased costs of delivery. So the tax increase you propose will come out of your pocketbook.
Not if we get Mexican truckers up here. The U.S. drivers would have to eat the increase or lose business. The trucking industry is very cut throat. Shippers will use the cheapest trucking line they can find. Mexico truckers can fill up in Mexico with cheap dirty fuel and drive loads up to Oklahoma, pushing American truckers aside.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Since taxes are on a percentage basis... you really do not need to adjust them for inflation.
Fuel taxes are generally figured on a cents per gallon basis so fuel taxes are NOT adjusted for inflation and actually with increases in the fuel efficency of cars the amount of tax per mile driven is declining.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Since taxes are on a percentage basis... you really do not need to adjust them for inflation.
Fuel taxes are generally figured on a cents per gallon basis so fuel taxes are NOT adjusted for inflation and actually with increases in the fuel efficency of cars the amount of tax per mile driven is declining.
Yes- but some states have a gas tax per gallon of fuel and a sales tax on top of that. Indiana is one of those states. Other states only have a cents per gallon tax.