In observance of Labor Day honoring America's hard working men and women, our local gasoline marketers have boosted the price of gasoline from $2.72 to $2.89 per gallon.
On the other hand, if you happen to pass through Muskogee, you will find unleaded regular fuel there is miraculously still priced at $2.66 per gallon. Still priced at $2.66 per gallon......
Like the Third-Penny "temporary" tax that Tulsans have been paying for the past 27 years, like the dearth of state funding for local roads and road maintenace, like the EMSA "fee", like the $6.00 extra monthly Trash Charge to service the Trash-to-Energy plant debt for the past 20 years, the local fuel price anomaly hereabouts is another:
"Tulsa Premium".
A higher cost extracted for living in Tulsa.
Can anyone else recite other ripe Tulsa Premiums??
Does anyone suspect that QUIK-TRIP is the culprit of our higher fuel prices, as the dominant local gasoline retailer?
Privately Owned by Tulsa's very own:
Chester [ahem] Cadieux:
Zealous backer of the $0.004 Kaiser River Tax.
Remember a few years back when Tulsa consistently had the LOWEST fuel prices of anywhere in the U.S., according to the Lundburg Survey?
It's the Tulsa Premium.
[:(!]
Please don't use this forum to mindlessly slander people and give them inappropriate nicknames.
While I do not share your QT conspiracy theories (QT does not have close to half the stores, let alone enough to factually set prices. QT has no stores in OKC and their gas went up too), I am peeved at the cost of gas. The purchasing agent for QT was on the radio this AM talking about how their model for predicting what gas prices should be is now basically worthless. The market reacts to non-news items, doesnt seem to care about supply, and shifts wildly instead of in trends.
It's a market system, so there isnt ONE person... but I'd really like to ask SOMEONE why gas went up all over the midwest.
http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx
Oh well, the more expensive and erratic the fuel gets, the more people will desire to get rid of it. If there was a reliable and affordable electric car, I'd be on board. Especially if we get the electricity from wind, water, and/or nuclear sources. And I'm not a hippy... just tired of getting jerked around.
$2.48 just outside St. Louis last night.
Hmmmm? Makes ya wonder.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
While I do not share your QT conspiracy theories (QT does not have close to half the stores, let alone enough to factually set prices. QT has no stores in OKC and their gas went up too), I am peeved at the cost of gas. The purchasing agent for QT was on the radio this AM talking about how their model for predicting what gas prices should be is now basically worthless. The market reacts to non-news items, doesnt seem to care about supply, and shifts wildly instead of in trends.
It's a market system, so there isnt ONE person... but I'd really like to ask SOMEONE why gas went up all over the midwest.
http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx
Oh well, the more expensive and erratic the fuel gets, the more people will desire to get rid of it. If there was a reliable and affordable electric car, I'd be on board. Especially if we get the electricity from wind, water, and/or nuclear sources. And I'm not a hippy... just tired of getting jerked around.
Not always true. There have been several times over the last year I've driven through OKC and found the fuel prices to be .10 less. Norman has been noted as having the lowest fuel prices in the nation with some consistency for several years.
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Well, doesn't that make sense? If you have a "special" blend, as we do because of previous ozone issues, then, all things being equal, this blend is going to cost more, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
While I do not share your QT conspiracy theories (QT does not have close to half the stores, let alone enough to factually set prices. QT has no stores in OKC and their gas went up too), I am peeved at the cost of gas. The purchasing agent for QT was on the radio this AM talking about how their model for predicting what gas prices should be is now basically worthless. The market reacts to non-news items, doesnt seem to care about supply, and shifts wildly instead of in trends.
It's a market system, so there isnt ONE person... but I'd really like to ask SOMEONE why gas went up all over the midwest.
http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx
Oh well, the more expensive and erratic the fuel gets, the more people will desire to get rid of it. If there was a reliable and affordable electric car, I'd be on board. Especially if we get the electricity from wind, water, and/or nuclear sources. And I'm not a hippy... just tired of getting jerked around.
Not always true. There have been several times over the last year I've driven through OKC and found the fuel prices to be .10 less. Norman has been noted as having the lowest fuel prices in the nation with some consistency for several years.
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Dallas now has lower fuel prices than Tulsa, even with a several cents per gallon higher fuel tax.
For many years, I have regularly travelled to Dallas for work or recreation. Until just a few years ago, Dallas CONSISTENTLY had higher gasoline prices.
Then, a few years ago, something changed...
The one variable I am aware of is that while Tulsa's retail fuel market is now dominated by Chester the Molester's Quik-Trip Stores, Dallas has a very difuse market, with NO dominant fuel retailer.
While there MIGHT be another plausible explanation, I'll apply Occam's Razor at this juncture:
To wit:
"The simplest explanation tends to be the right one."
The issue of Tulsa's UNIQUE Boutique blend of re-oxygenated fuel unlike ANY other blend in ANY city in the U.S. could possibly explain a higher fuel price from May to Labor Day, when it is REQUIRED to be sold.
But, how does that EXPLAIN the above average fuel price the other 9 months of the year........
Bear, Stop with the name calling. Really. Now.
And here is the simple explanation:
Over the past few years the competitive climate in Tulsa has changed a lot.
Just a few years ago we used to have Quik Trip, Citgo, Git n Go (some of which were Citgo), Texaco and Phillips 66 stations all over.
Now we are down to Quik Trip, Shell and just a few Kum and Go's and Phillips stations. Texaco, Citgo and Git n Go are gone and Phillips has a lot fewer stations. Even Quik Trip has fewer stores, even if they are a lot larger. There's just a lot less competition than there used to be locally.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
In observance of Labor Day honoring America's hard working men and women, our local gasoline marketers have boosted the price of gasoline from $2.72 to $2.89 per gallon.
On the other hand, if you happen to pass through Muskogee, you will find unleaded regular fuel there is miraculously still priced at $2.66 per gallon. Still priced at $2.66 per gallon......
Like the Third-Penny "temporary" tax that Tulsans have been paying for the past 27 years, like the dearth of state funding for local roads and road maintenace, like the EMSA "fee", like the $6.00 extra monthly Trash Charge to service the Trash-to-Energy plant debt for the past 20 years, the local fuel price anomaly hereabouts is another:
"Tulsa Premium".
A higher cost extracted for living in Tulsa.
Can anyone else recite other ripe Tulsa Premiums??
Does anyone suspect that QUIK-TRIP is the culprit of our higher fuel prices, as the dominant local gasoline retailer?
Privately Owned by Tulsa's very own:
Chester "The Molester" Cadieux:
Zealous backer of the $0.004 Kaiser River Tax.
Remember a few years back when Tulsa consistently had the LOWEST fuel prices of anywhere in the U.S., according to the Lundburg Survey?
It's the Tulsa Premium.
[:(!]
I would suggest:
Stop buying gasoline, or
Buy your gas in Muskogee.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Please don't use this forum to mindlessly slander people and give them inappropriate nicknames.
Gee, I kind of like using his nickname.
We're personal friends, you know.
It's my pet nick name for old Chester. He gets quite a charge out of it.
Did I mention that Chester
[ahem] is promoting the Kaiser River Tax?
[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Well, doesn't that make sense? If you have a "special" blend, as we do because of previous ozone issues, then, all things being equal, this blend is going to cost more, right?
Pretty much what I said, CL.
However, that is a "summertime" blend. Still doesn't explain why gas was .10 cheaper in OKC last winter.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Bear, Stop with the name calling. Really. Now.
And here is the simple explanation:
Over the past few years the competitive climate in Tulsa has changed a lot.
Just a few years ago we used to have Quik Trip, Citgo, Git n Go (some of which were Citgo), Texaco and Phillips 66 stations all over.
Now we are down to Quik Trip, Shell and just a few Kum and Go's and Phillips stations. Texaco, Citgo and Git n Go are gone and Phillips has a lot fewer stations. Even Quik Trip has fewer stores, even if they are a lot larger. There's just a lot less competition than there used to be locally.
Ah, am I perchance hearing that Chester the Molester's Quik-Trip is actually exerting a
MONOPOLISTIC influence on our local retail fuel market?
Calling 1-800-FTC as I post......
Can't call the SEC because Chester the
[COUGH]Quik Trip Corp. is NOT a publically-held firm.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Please don't use this forum to mindlessly slander people and give them inappropriate nicknames.
Gee, I kind of like using his nickname.
We're personal friends, you know.
It's my pet nick name for old Chester. He gets quite a charge out of it.[;)]
I wonder why I don't believe you...I find it hard to believe anyone would like being called
[ahem].
Just stop the name-calling, please.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Please don't use this forum to mindlessly slander people and give them inappropriate nicknames.
Gee, I kind of like using his nickname.
We're personal friends, you know.
It's my pet nick name for old Chester. He gets quite a charge out of it.[;)]
I wonder why I don't believe you...I find it hard to believe anyone would like being called a [AHEM]
Just stop the name-calling, please.
Really, he
LIKES it.
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
Old Chester likes to
[AHEM] our most helpless local citizens:
Our local POOR who buy gasoline to get to work......
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
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[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
[AHEM].
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Well, doesn't that make sense? If you have a "special" blend, as we do because of previous ozone issues, then, all things being equal, this blend is going to cost more, right?
Pretty much what I said, CL.
However, that is a "summertime" blend. Still doesn't explain why gas was .10 cheaper in OKC last winter.
Hmmm....
1. Largest gasoline distributor in town...check.
2. Can set prices as they see fit...check.
3. Gas at QT in OKC is less...check.
Unless the gas they buy for Tulsa is more expensive then something is not right.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Well, doesn't that make sense? If you have a "special" blend, as we do because of previous ozone issues, then, all things being equal, this blend is going to cost more, right?
Pretty much what I said, CL.
However, that is a "summertime" blend. Still doesn't explain why gas was .10 cheaper in OKC last winter.
I find this very intersting because we use the same type blended gas in Phoenix and I have found gas near my house at $2.39/gallon. (Use 85024 for the zip code on gasbuddy.com) Diesel price here are close to what Tulsa has. It is interesting that the southwest US now has the lowest prices and we don't have a single refinery in the state of Arizona, our gas comes from Houston and southern California.
Gas taxes by state:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gas_taxes_by_state_2002.html (//%22http://%22)
quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Well, doesn't that make sense? If you have a "special" blend, as we do because of previous ozone issues, then, all things being equal, this blend is going to cost more, right?
Pretty much what I said, CL.
However, that is a "summertime" blend. Still doesn't explain why gas was .10 cheaper in OKC last winter.
I find this very intersting because we use the same type blended gas in Phoenix and I have found gas near my house at $2.39/gallon. (Use 85024 for the zip code on gasbuddy.com) Diesel price here are close to what Tulsa has. It is interesting that the southwest US now has the lowest prices and we don't have a single refinery in the state of Arizona, our gas comes from Houston and southern California.
Gas taxes by state:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gas_taxes_by_state_2002.html (//%22http://%22)
Tulsa uses Re-oxygenated fuel from June 1 to September 15 -the summer driving months.
HOWEVER, Tulsa's "boutique" blend of Re-oxygenated fuel is unlike any other blend in the U.S., as measured by the Reid Vapor Pressure, which is how Re-oxygenated fuel is measured.
Allegedly, Tulsa has an air quality problem. So, as an "settlement", a tri-party agreement
was signed between the EPA, the City of Tulsa (Mayor Savage), and the local refineries.
The local refineries were Sooooooooooo happy to sign for at least 3 reasons:
1) It was acknowledged that due to higher "costs" to produce the blend, that they would get to charge a few cents per gallon more.
2) By agreement to a Reid Vapor Pressure of 7.75, which is a slightly different level that ANY OTHER City in the U.S., the Refiners knew they would be gaining a mini-monopoly.
How? Excess capacity in the other refineries in Ponca City, Coffeyville, and Fort Smith would ordinarily mean that they would send their fuel to a large out-of-area market. But, with Tulsa's boutique blend, they were put in a position of making MULTIPLE fuel blends. An additional operational hurdle, and one entailing additional costs.
3). Our local refiners are such good corporate citizens. Emitting the noxious fumes that they do daily release, and also periodically creating "controlled burns" called "fires" of highly toxic petroleum by-products which they store until an opportune moment, and that blacken the skies of mid-town and downtown, they just want the air to be cleaner like everyone else.
[:P]
Recycle needs to chime in, but I thought I'd heard or read that the only place our particular blend was blended was in Houston, and that we don't get local fuel from Sinclair during the summer is that right or am I suffering from second-hand crack smoke?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Recycle needs to chime in, but I thought I'd heard or read that the only place our particular blend was blended was in Houston, and that we don't get local fuel from Sinclair during the summer is that right or am I suffering from second-hand crack smoke?
You are correct from what I have read, our blend is rare, but not unique. Memphis and Houston at least use it. And the local refineries do not produce it.
There's nothing dirty about less competition equals higher prices, it just how the world works. Businesses are in the business of making money. But, it leaves an opening for a new gasoline retailer to enter the market. Which is exactly what it looks like Kum and Go is doing right now with all the stores they are building.
All the retailers appear to be in lock-step when it comes to pricing. It usually seems that Shell is a few hours ahead of QT when it comes to increases.
Used to be you could drive a mile or two and save a few cents a gallon. Not anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Recycle needs to chime in, but I thought I'd heard or read that the only place our particular blend was blended was in Houston, and that we don't get local fuel from Sinclair during the summer is that right or am I suffering from second-hand crack smoke?
You are correct from what I have read, our blend is rare, but not unique. Memphis and Houston at least use it. And the local refineries do not produce it.
There's nothing dirty about less competition equals higher prices, it just how the world works. Businesses are in the business of making money. But, it leaves an opening for a new gasoline retailer to enter the market. Which is exactly what it looks like Kum and Go is doing right now with all the stores they are building.
And, the question still, why is Tulsa's gasoline so high compared to other cities cited in this thread, to its historically being the lowest in the U.S.??
The Answer is _____________________ .
Chester the Jester??
Why the hell doesn't Tulsa switch to an even cleaner burning, but more common and apparently less costly, blend than we are using now? Makes no sense to me when I hear we use some unique blend to meet a certain standard while there are CLEANER standards out there.
Maybe we should all run our lawn mowers on Ozone alert days so we can get on that dirty air list and get some cheaper gas :D (kidding, yes, but it seems to be our situation. How do we go about mandating a cleaner blend of gas without exceeding?)
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
$2.48 just outside St. Louis last night.
Hmmmm? Makes ya wonder.
Saw it (and bought it) cheaper at a run down mom and pop station outside Poplar Bluff Mo.
There is a mom and pop convenience store at 15th & Columbia who used to be a few pennies cheaper. They recently pulled their tanks and pumps. Not that I ever used them. I don't have the same level of trust for tank maintenance on M & P operations as I do with larger retailers.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
Why the hell doesn't Tulsa switch to an even cleaner burning, but more common and apparently less costly, blend than we are using now? Makes no sense to me when I hear we use some unique blend to meet a certain standard while there are CLEANER standards out there.
Maybe we should all run our lawn mowers on Ozone alert days so we can get on that dirty air list and get some cheaper gas :D (kidding, yes, but it seems to be our situation. How do we go about mandating a cleaner blend of gas without exceeding?)
I would happily settle for the same Reid Vapor Pressure re-oxygenated fuel sold in Dallas.
Using their fuel blend would theoretically LOWER our prices, due to economy of scale.
Then again, there's the whimsy of Chester the Jester to contend with..........
[:D]
Gasoline is an inelastic commodity, that is demand does not fall proportionate to price increases.
Gasoline retailers in Tulsa will charge whatever price the market will bear, given their wholesale cost. There is nothing illegal going on I think, just good old supply and demand at work. Isn't that the "American Way?"
The only way gasoline prices are going to significantly fall permanently is for the driving public to decrease demand on a long-term basis. As long as we keep driving gas-hog vehicles and such and demand continues to rise, gas prices will continue to rise too. I think demand is much more of a factor in gas prices than supply.
Missouri has always had cheaper gas than Oklahoma.
I noticed gas was 10-cent cheaper last Saturday in Bartlesville than in Tulsa. I figured that it was because B'ville is outside the Tulsa emissions management boundary.
And it seems like I heard that Coffeyville is one of the refineries that made Tulsa's special blend.
I say blame the feds for creating barriers to supply and demand by requiring so many distinct, not-quite-the-same blends to be sold around the country.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Gasoline is an inelastic commodity, that is demand does not fall proportionate to price increases.
Gasoline retailers in Tulsa will charge whatever price the market will bear, given their wholesale cost. There is nothing illegal going on I think, just good old supply and demand at work. Isn't that the "American Way?"
The only way gasoline prices are going to significantly fall permanently is for the driving public to decrease demand on a long-term basis. As long as we keep driving gas-hog vehicles and such and demand continues to rise, gas prices will continue to rise too. I think demand is much more of a factor in gas prices than supply.
Well, those that control the
Supply have a very strong incentive to
LIE about what level of both crude supplies and refined fuel are actually on hand.
WHY?
To inculcate a belief that there is
SCARCITY.And, drive up the price, of course.
We hear weekly that the supply of crude or the supply of fuel is lower than the level a year ago.
Well, with crude prices HIGH, it makes since from an inventory basis to maintain a little of the high priced feedstock as possible.
George W. Bush was put in the White House by the Energy Industry.
And, they have been rewarded handsomely.
[:(!]
Somewhat related, somewhat not:
I just saw some guy at QT put $3.00 worth of gas into his Chevy Suburban and drive away. It was like 1.05 gallons of regular unleaded, he would have made it like 5 miles. Are people that broke? I thought I was bad only putting $25 in (about half a tank)
On the topic of the refineries: Last night there was a chokingly large amount of toxic gas in the air along the river and Brookside area. It was enough for me to at first question why everything smelled like WD-40, and then proceed to have my eyes and nose burn a bit.
From the EPA the list of states and the maximum Reid vapor pressure limits.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b07007.pdf (//%22http://%22)
This thread needs to die a quick death. Friendly Bear, you whine about .10 difference in price in another city a year ago. What is that $1.60 per fill up on 16 gallons? C'mon, I made enough money to fill your vehicle with gas in the time it took me to read and reply to this rediculous post. Go do something constructive with your time...especially if you're going to spend hours on a forum whining about $1.60 in gas you lost because you pay the "Tulsa Premium".
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
This thread needs to die a quick death. Friendly Bear, you whine about .10 difference in price in another city a year ago. What is that $1.60 per fill up on 16 gallons? C'mon, I made enough money to fill your vehicle with gas in the time it took me to read and reply to this rediculous post. Go do something constructive with your time...especially if you're going to spend hours on a forum whining about $1.60 in gas you lost because you pay the "Tulsa Premium".
Not everyone is doing as well as you, when I see people putting $3 of gas in their cars.
I think it is right to question the pricing scheme of gas, rather than to just accept it blindly. Especially when we are doing silly things like paying MORE for some special gas blend that doesnt burn as clean as a more common one used in bigger cities.
Most places are in situations where polluting less would cost more. Not us, the fine city of Tulsa, Oklahoma. We pay more to pollute more.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
[br
And it seems like I heard that Coffeyville is one of the refineries that made Tulsa's special blend.
I've also heard we dont get gas from there. Thats a problem with this issue is that everyone has "heard" this or that, but I'd like to see some actuall hard facts on where our gas comes from and what events warrent legitimate prices increases versus manufactured phantom price increases.
I have a hard time being convinced that your anecdotal story about someone getting $3.00 worth in gas is related to this small price difference between cities. So how much gas were they going to get if it was .10 cheaper? $25.00? C'mon. That person obviously is having a tough time with money aside from the .10 difference that they probably aren't aware of. We're talking about $1.60 per tank on average people! It's always good to question things but $1.60 per tank difference isn't going to motivate many people.
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik
I have a hard time being convinced that your anecdotal story about someone getting $3.00 worth in gas is related to this small price difference between cities. So how much gas were they going to get if it was .10 cheaper? $25.00? C'mon. That person obviously is having a tough time with money aside from the .10 difference that they probably aren't aware of. We're talking about $1.60 per tank on average people! It's always good to question things but $1.60 per tank difference isn't going to motivate many people.
This particular thread may have pointed out a $1.60 per tank difference, but we're looking at about a $25 per tank difference in just a few years. These little non-important price hikes add up REAL fast and REAL expensively.
Your last post was as if to say "hahaha, I make enough money so I could give a rats donkey about a measily increase in gas prices" - My anecdotal tale is simply saying that some people, irresponsible with money or not, are really struggling with prices up 100% in a few years.
the exponential curve in gas increases is total bull****. I used to think it was all because of the foreign oil cartels, but really the man behind the curtains is actually a local fool ripping us off.
I think it is going to take some legal intervention at this point to get some real competition in this town and this state, because QT made a sweetheart deal with 7/11 years ago not to get into each other's turf. They had a partner in crime with Git and Go and now Kum and Go (might as well call it **** You and Go). Then we have that stupid little state law that says that all the gas retailers must stay within a certain price of one another which effectively kills any loss leading competition.
We need a gas retailer with some big muscle like BP or Exxon to come to town. It is pretty eery that unlike other towns, we are dominated by a single gas retailer with some puppet competition.
I put $3 of gas in my scooter, and I can go most of the week before I need more. haha
When will people stop buying huge cars? $4 a gallon, $5 gallon, $6 gallon?
Dude with the $3.00 purchase may be suffering from the same issues I and others face. That is the theft of gasoline in parked vehicles. Three of our trucks have been hit several times over weekends and even on weeknights by gas theives.
We only allow a maximum of $10 to be pumped in them now. Locking caps are not much use as a simple filed down key opens most.
Over the past two years I have consistently found Tulsa's fuel prices to be 20 to 30 cents higher than in Texas and the stations in OKC near the Fair Grounds are normally 15 to 20 cents lower than Tulsa.
Since the invention of the digital fuel pump guage that replaced the Analog guage it became much eaiser for a business to make changes of the prices. Now with wireless internet those same changes can be done from a laptop or hand held device for hundreds of pumps with the click of a button. What used to take phone calls, and station owners a few hours to change is not done instantly. Even the signage changes immediatly from master control.
Gasoline sold for less than 99.9 cents per gallon for more than 100 years after it was first marketed. But it only took a few years after the invention of the digital gas guage for it to reach over $3.00 in the U.S.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Dude with the $3.00 purchase may be suffering from the same issues I and others face. That is the theft of gasoline in parked vehicles. Three of our trucks have been hit several times over weekends and even on weeknights by gas theives.
We only allow a maximum of $10 to be pumped in them now. Locking caps are not much use as a simple filed down key opens most.
Over the past two years I have consistently found Tulsa's fuel prices to be 20 to 30 cents higher than in Texas and the stations in OKC near the Fair Grounds are normally 15 to 20 cents lower than Tulsa.
Since the invention of the digital fuel pump guage that replaced the Analog guage it became much eaiser for a business to make changes of the prices. Now with wireless internet those same changes can be done from a laptop or hand held device for hundreds of pumps with the click of a button. What used to take phone calls, and station owners a few hours to change is not done instantly. Even the signage changes immediatly from master control.
Gasoline sold for less than 99.9 cents per gallon for more than 100 years after it was first marketed. But it only took a few years after the invention of the digital gas guage for it to reach over $3.00 in the U.S.
Yes, and nearly 99% of all murderers started out with milk in a bottle.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Dude with the $3.00 purchase may be suffering from the same issues I and others face. That is the theft of gasoline in parked vehicles. Three of our trucks have been hit several times over weekends and even on weeknights by gas theives.
We only allow a maximum of $10 to be pumped in them now. Locking caps are not much use as a simple filed down key opens most.
Over the past two years I have consistently found Tulsa's fuel prices to be 20 to 30 cents higher than in Texas and the stations in OKC near the Fair Grounds are normally 15 to 20 cents lower than Tulsa.
Since the invention of the digital fuel pump guage that replaced the Analog guage it became much eaiser for a business to make changes of the prices. Now with wireless internet those same changes can be done from a laptop or hand held device for hundreds of pumps with the click of a button. What used to take phone calls, and station owners a few hours to change is not done instantly. Even the signage changes immediatly from master control.
Gasoline sold for less than 99.9 cents per gallon for more than 100 years after it was first marketed. But it only took a few years after the invention of the digital gas guage for it to reach over $3.00 in the U.S.
Hmmmh, I wonder if some innovative entrepreneur could HACK their wireless system, and LOWER the price to say, $0.99 per gallon??
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw3. Gas at QT in OKC is less...check.
Uncheck? Does QT operate in OKC? (//%22http://quiktrip.com/locations/locations.asp%22)
gas price comparisons taken from www.gasbuddy.com.
west Oklahoma City - I 40 & Morgan Road $2.77
Oklahoma City - NW 23rd at N Santa Fe $2.89
Oklahoma City - I 44 at Penn $2.89
Norman - all over town $2.89
Dallas - Tom Thumb on Lovers Lane off 75 $2.61
Arlington - Fina next to ballpark $2.75
Kansas City, MO - Main and 44th (near the plaza) $2.72
Destin, FL - Emerald Coast parkway $2.79
Chicago, IL - Lake Park Ave at 52nd $3.39
Lincoln, NE - $3.09
Blackwell, OK - $2.99
Joplin, MO - I 44 and Range Rd $2.91
Springdale, AR - I 540 & 412 $2.79
Fayetteville, AR - I 540 & Weddington Rd $2.95
Muskogee, OK - Shawnee & N 11th $2.89
Antlers, OK - $2.84
Durant, OK - N Washington & US 69 $2.89
Ardmore, OK - $2.95
Tulsa, OK - $2.89
Broken Arrow - $2.99
quote:
Originally posted by joiei
gas price comparisons taken from www.gasbuddy.com.
west Oklahoma City - I 40 & Morgan Road $2.77
Oklahoma City - NW 23rd at N Santa Fe $2.89
Oklahoma City - I 44 at Penn $2.89
Norman - all over town $2.89
Dallas - Tom Thumb on Lovers Lane off 75 $2.61
Arlington - Fina next to ballpark $2.75
Kansas City, MO - Main and 44th (near the plaza) $2.72
Destin, FL - Emerald Coast parkway $2.79
Chicago, IL - Lake Park Ave at 52nd $3.39
Lincoln, NE - $3.09
Blackwell, OK - $2.99
Joplin, MO - I 44 and Range Rd $2.91
Springdale, AR - I 540 & 412 $2.79
Fayetteville, AR - I 540 & Weddington Rd $2.95
Muskogee, OK - Shawnee & N 11th $2.89
Antlers, OK - $2.84
Durant, OK - N Washington & US 69 $2.89
Ardmore, OK - $2.95
Tulsa, OK - $2.89
Broken Arrow - $2.99
The creative juices I was hoping to harvest on this topic of the
Tulsa Premium are actually much broader than just the
Premium that Tulsans pay for the privilege of Chester the Jester dominating the local retail fuel market.
I was also hoping to foster further discussion of the special Premiums that Tulsans pay for a variety of goods and services:
The extra EMSA Fee recently instituted with a minimal Opt-Out period;
tThe duplicative costs of having both an EMSA and the Tulsa FD serving as responders to medical emergencies;
The Itty Bitty "Temporary" 27-year old Third Penny Sales Tax in lieu of more state and federal funding for our roads and highways;
Using the Third Penny to fund the purchase of 800 police cars so that 800 police officers can take our police cars home to Bixby, Owasso, Broken Arrow, Sapulpa, Sands Springs, Jenks, etc., while burning our gasoline for commuting and for moon-lighting at second jobs;
And, also a possibility of discussion about the local Land Attorneys and their Eminence Grise who serve as the
GATEKEEPERS for anyone who wants something significant done with the city, BOA or TMAPC concerning land use.
Even something as simple as an out-of-town bank building a branch at a major intersection, without the services of the Eminence Grise (a.k.a. The Prince of Darkness), it can take up to a year getting the permitting from the various city departments before ground is even broken on construction.
A Pryor banker had some interesting insights into the totally intentional,
Who's-on-First FUBAR city permitting process when he tried to build a First Pryority branch here in Tulsa a few years ago on south Memorial. His experience, as an educated and experienced businessman new to the
Tulsa Premium, elicited a strongly worded Letter to the Editor of the
Lorton's World from him.
His comments concerning Tulsa's land use and permitting process sort of kept resonating.......
Then, the resonance became a church bell on Sunday.
I get It: Does the Eminence Grise who actually wrote Tulsa's land use zoning codes collect a
toll, if you will, on those who desire a zoning change, or even something which should be as simple as a building permit?
Unless you use one of a small cadre of local Land Attorneys, the city permitting and BOA variance process is intentionally designed to be
OPAQUE.Say, wasn't former Mayor Bill MisFortune, prior to his selection as Mayor, a
LAND Attorney in the offices of the Eminence Grise?
And, it has made the Eminence Grise a very, very wealthy man in the past 40 years.......
There are many possible discussion threads to the
Tulsa Premium.......[}:)]
You started this thread making statements that Tulsans have to pay more for everything.Then it turns out it was just a temporary thing and Tulsans pay about the same as almost everybody around us.
Then you try to change the topic claiming there is some premium that must be paid to get a business started here. Your evidence is one person who once told you that he was unsuccessful. You then say that you have to hire an insider of ex-mayor to get things approved.
I think you need to go back to the woods next time you want to poop on Tulsa.
There are building permits and zoning changes and new businesses started here in Tulsa every month without insider permission. Yes, it helps to hire people who know all the rules and all the players, but that is probably true in most cities. Tulsa does not have any more problems or roadblocks than any similar sized city.
I know you really just wanted to bellow out loud. Bears do that.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
You started this thread making statements that Tulsans have to pay more for everything.Then it turns out it was just a temporary thing and Tulsans pay about the same as almost everybody around us.
Then you try to change the topic claiming there is some premium that must be paid to get a business started here. Your evidence is one person who once told you that he was unsuccessful. You then say that you have to hire an insider of ex-mayor to get things approved.
I think you need to go back to the woods next time you want to poop on Tulsa.
There are building permits and zoning changes and new businesses started here in Tulsa every month without insider permission. Yes, it helps to hire people who know all the rules and all the players, but that is probably true in most cities. Tulsa does not have any more problems or roadblocks than any similar sized city.
I know you really just wanted to bellow out loud. Bears do that.
Before your aortic aneurysm kicks in, you might actually take a moment to go back and
READ my first comment in this topic, concerning the
Tulsa Premium. And I quote:
"
Like the Third-Penny "temporary" tax that Tulsans have been paying for the past 27 years, like the dearth of state funding for local roads and road maintenace, like the EMSA "fee", like the $6.00 extra monthly Trash Charge to service the Trash-to-Energy plant debt for the past 20 years, the local fuel price anomaly hereabouts is another:
"Tulsa Premium".
A higher cost extracted for living in Tulsa.
Can anyone else recite other ripe Tulsa Premiums??"
Chester the Jester's extraction from Tulsa's poorest and most exploited is just ONE example of the Tulsa Premium.
As I noted THEN, and I REPEAT now in trying to keep this thread back centered on TOPIC, there are many
TULSA PREMIUMS.It was the banker's opinion about our permitting and zoning. He's an experienced businessman, and his letter was harshly critical of the local permitting and zoning process.
If he'd just hired the Eminence Grise, the skids would have been suitably greased, and all obstacles effortlessly cleared.
There is no $6 trash premium in Tulsa.
How do you make up these numbers?
Do you just have big, fuzzy dice you roll?
Tulsa's residential trash rates are competitive for cities our size. We are 30% cheaper than Dallas and less than almost any other big city.
The trash-to-energy plant financing was more spread among businesses than residents the last twenty years, but those charges have been dramatically lowered this past summer.
How can I ever believe any of your conspiracy theories when you make up the facts on the things I know about?
There is a solution to your paying your Tulsa Premium. Move to San Jose.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
[br
And it seems like I heard that Coffeyville is one of the refineries that made Tulsa's special blend.
I've also heard we dont get gas from there. Thats a problem with this issue is that everyone has "heard" this or that, but I'd like to see some actuall hard facts on where our gas comes from and what events warrent legitimate prices increases versus manufactured phantom price increases.
"Like many other regions, Tulsa has experienced in recent weeks sharp increases in gasoline prices. Here's why: our local regulators have entered into an agreement with EPA so that a special gasoline with 8.2 Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) is sold in Tulsa county during summer months.
Tulsa is the only area in the nation where this particular gasoline is sold. As a result, no refiner manufactures it, but rather two different gasolines are mixed together to meet the 8.2 specification.
Most of these two kinds of gasoline come from refineries on the Gulf Coast and are transported by pipeline to Tulsa. That was not a problem in 1999. Unfortunately, since last year, 98 counties in East Texas that are along the pipeline that connects Tulsa to the Gulf Coast refineries now require one of the gasolines that is blended to make Tulsa's fuel. That increased demand from motorists in the Texas counties caused an increase in the price of gasoline in our Tulsa market when the summer driving season began. Once again, this is a simple case of the relationship of supply, demand and price."
Written Statement of James McCarthy
General Manager, CITGO Petroleum Corporation
Before the Senate Agriculture Committee
July 20, 2000
http://agriculture.senate.gov/Hearings/Hearings_2000/July_20__2000/00720mcc.htm
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7015
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
There is no $6 trash premium in Tulsa.
How do you make up these numbers?
Do you just have big, fuzzy dice you roll?
Tulsa's residential trash rates are competitive for cities our size. We are 30% cheaper than Dallas and less than almost any other big city.
The trash-to-energy plant financing was more spread among businesses than residents the last twenty years, but those charges have been dramatically lowered this past summer.
How can I ever believe any of your conspiracy theories when you make up the facts on the things I know about?
It appears that Mr. Recycled is dissembling again, so let's try to get to the basics of Truth and Trust. Ready?
DID TULSA TRASH RATEPAYERS PAY A PREMIUM TO PAY FOR THE TRASH-TO-ENERGY PLANT?
WHAT WAS THAT MONTHLY AMOUNT PER RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMER TO SERVICE THE DEBT AT THE WALTER B. HALL PLANT? Total cost was $180 million, financed over 20 years.
WAS IT $6.00 per month?
WAS IT $5.99?
WAS IT $5.98?
WAS IT $5.97?
WAS IT [$ . ]?
How about a little HONESTY on the part of so distinguished a Forum Administrator??
Approximately $6.00 per month for the past 20 years was added to the residential water/sewer/trash bill for Residential users in the City of Tulsa.
This was the Tulsa Premium to service the bonded indebtedness on the Hall Trash to Energy Plant.
After the plant was paid off last year, the TMUA
KEPT collecting the entire Tulsa Premium.
Then, to their chagrin when finally outed, they sheepishly reduced the Residential Tax rate by $1.00, and pocketed the remainder.
For the past 20 years, Tulsa trash ratepayers paid more than any major city in our surrounding states.
That is an unassailable fact.
Mr. Recycle is also deceptively referring to CURRENT residential rates, and CURRENT commercial rates. The commercial rates did drop substantially. Residential only dropped $1.00.
In fact, our residential rates
were the highest in a five state region until the Trash-to-Energy plant financing was paid off, and our commercial rates were double the surrounding cities.
It's the
Tulsa Premium.
quote:
Originally posted by joiei
There is a solution to your paying your Tulsa Premium. Move to San Jose.
Another
Tulsa Premium is looming:
If the Kaiser River Tax passes Oct. 9, Tulsa's combined City/County/State Tax rate will be
8.917%.
Wonder how that wonderful new rate compares to our neighboring major cities, Oklahoma City, Little Rock, Dallas, and Houston?
We'll be the highest.
That's the
Tulsa Premium.
Friendly Bear...if you want to be taken seriously, stop making up facts.
The trash to energy plant was financially unwise for Tulsa.
Senator Inhofe agreed to the contract and bound Tulsa to twenty years of a bad deal. That is correct.
There is and was no six dollar premium for residential ratepayers. Tulsa does not have the highest residential trash rates in the five state area, they are not even the highest rates in Oklahoma nor the Tulsa area.
I know that you will not listen to the facts. You would rather just make up your own.
Don't you and the other bears have some hibernating coming up soon?
We have our own Trash To Energy Plant where I live. Called a burn pit. Cheap and Simple.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Friendly Bear...if you want to be taken seriously, stop making up facts.
The trash to energy plant was financially unwise for Tulsa.
Senator Inhofe agreed to the contract and bound Tulsa to twenty years of a bad deal. That is correct.
There is and was no six dollar premium for residential ratepayers. Tulsa does not have the highest residential trash rates in the five state area, they are not even the highest rates in Oklahoma nor the Tulsa area.
I know that you will not listen to the facts. You would rather just make up your own.
Don't you and the other bears have some hibernating coming up soon?
Gosh, there's so much anger bundled up there in you Recycle. Why??
EASY does it.
Nonetheless, you're parsing my words even better than Bill Clinton parsing "It depends on what the meaning of is, is".
You're sliding back and forth between tenses about PAST trash rates, and CURRENT trash rates.
It is still an unassailable fact that:
Approximately $6.00 per month for the past 20 years up through the fall of 2006 was buried in the monthly residential water/sewer/trash bill for Residential users in the City of Tulsa.
This was the
Tulsa Premium to service the bonded indebtedness on the Hall Trash to Energy Plant.
After the plant was paid off last year, the TMUA KEPT collecting the entire
Tulsa Premium.
Then, to their chagrin when finally outed, they sheepishly reduced the Residential Tax rate by $1.00, and pocketed the remainder.
For the past 20 years, Tulsa trash ratepayers paid more than any major city in our surrounding states.
That is also an unassailable fact.
Mr. Recycle has repeatedly and deceptively referred to CURRENT residential rates, and CURRENT commercial rates. The commercial rates did drop substantially. Residential only dropped a measley $1.00.
In fact, our residential rates were the highest in a five state region until the Trash-to-Energy plant financing was paid off, and our commercial rates were double the surrounding cities.
It's the
Tulsa Premium.P.S. Expect the Hibernation cycle to begin October 10.
[;)][;)]
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
You started this thread making statements that Tulsans have to pay more for everything.Then it turns out it was just a temporary thing and Tulsans pay about the same as almost everybody around us.
Then you try to change the topic claiming there is some premium that must be paid to get a business started here. Your evidence is one person who once told you that he was unsuccessful. You then say that you have to hire an insider of ex-mayor to get things approved.
I think you need to go back to the woods next time you want to poop on Tulsa.
There are building permits and zoning changes and new businesses started here in Tulsa every month without insider permission. Yes, it helps to hire people who know all the rules and all the players, but that is probably true in most cities. Tulsa does not have any more problems or roadblocks than any similar sized city.
I know you really just wanted to bellow out loud. Bears do that.
Gosh, there you go
TWISTING my comments, again.
Golly gee, Recycle, you'd better get a patent on your half-truth telling. You could resale it to the
Lorton's World. They just Loooooove the Half-Truth.......
Where did I say that Tulsans "pay more for everything"??
I've cited about half a dozen solid examples of the
Tulsa Premium.Would anyone else like to Extend my remarks??
This is from the Tulsa World (8/31):
SOURCE LINK:http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070830_1__OKLAH76744
Oklahoma gasoline prices exceeded the national average Thursday and were higher than those of surrounding states as the Labor Day holiday weekend approached.
Industry analysts blame the higher prices in the region on a series of refinery outages, a Coffeyville, Kan., refinery that flooded earlier this summer, a large refinery outage in Illinois and the fire at the Wynnewood refinery in late spring.
"Coffeyville is right there in the center of the Midwestern area, so a disruption there causes problems throughout the region," said Bruce Bell, chairman emeritus of the Mid-Continent Oil and Gas Association of Oklahoma. "That's causing us to bring gasoline in from out of state and out of the region much more so than normal."
According to the AAA Daily Fuel Gauge Report, the national average for regular unleaded Thursday was $2.76 per gallon, while the average in Oklahoma City was $2.88. Gas was $2.87 in Tulsa, $2.61 in Dallas, $2.76 in Kansas City, Mo., $2.81 in Albuquerque and $2.61 in Little Rock, Ark.
Prices throughout the Plains and much of the Midwest are far above the national average.
Bell said it is also more difficult to move fuel throughout the country in the summer because the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency requires dozens of specially blended fuels for parts of the nation. The summer blends are required until Sept. 15.
Chris Newton, president of the Texas Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Store Association, also attributed the price discrepancy to refinery problems in Oklahoma, Kansas and the Midwest.
"The current disparity between fuel prices in Oklahoma and Texas is marked by limited supplies attempting to address demand for fuels," he said. "There is just not a lot of excess product available in today's wholesale market."
Suppliers in Oklahoma and other parts of the region are limited in how much fuel they can buy from Texas, Arkansas and other lower-priced areas because of contracts, he said. Most of the terminals in north Texas are dedicated to the Dallas region.
Higher Oklahoma gasoline prices are not expected to affect Labor Day travel, AAA Oklahoma spokesman Chuck Mai said.
This is from the Tulsa World (8/31):
SOURCE LINK:http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070830_1__OKLAH76744
Oklahoma gasoline prices exceeded the national average Thursday and were higher than those of surrounding states as the Labor Day holiday weekend approached.
Industry analysts blame the higher prices in the region on a series of refinery outages, a Coffeyville, Kan., refinery that flooded earlier this summer, a large refinery outage in Illinois and the fire at the Wynnewood refinery in late spring.
"Coffeyville is right there in the center of the Midwestern area, so a disruption there causes problems throughout the region," said Bruce Bell, chairman emeritus of the Mid-Continent Oil and Gas Association of Oklahoma. "That's causing us to bring gasoline in from out of state and out of the region much more so than normal."
According to the AAA Daily Fuel Gauge Report, the national average for regular unleaded Thursday was $2.76 per gallon, while the average in Oklahoma City was $2.88. Gas was $2.87 in Tulsa, $2.61 in Dallas, $2.76 in Kansas City, Mo., $2.81 in Albuquerque and $2.61 in Little Rock, Ark.
Prices throughout the Plains and much of the Midwest are far above the national average.
Bell said it is also more difficult to move fuel throughout the country in the summer because the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency requires dozens of specially blended fuels for parts of the nation. The summer blends are required until Sept. 15.
Chris Newton, president of the Texas Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Store Association, also attributed the price discrepancy to refinery problems in Oklahoma, Kansas and the Midwest.
"The current disparity between fuel prices in Oklahoma and Texas is marked by limited supplies attempting to address demand for fuels," he said. "There is just not a lot of excess product available in today's wholesale market."
Suppliers in Oklahoma and other parts of the region are limited in how much fuel they can buy from Texas, Arkansas and other lower-priced areas because of contracts, he said. Most of the terminals in north Texas are dedicated to the Dallas region.
Higher Oklahoma gasoline prices are not expected to affect Labor Day travel, AAA Oklahoma spokesman Chuck Mai said.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
For the past 20 years, Tulsa trash ratepayers paid more than any major city in our surrounding states.
That is also an unassailable fact.
Again....Untrue.
Dallas trash rates per month $20.41
Little Rock rates per month $20.99
Oklahoma City rates per month $13.91
Tulsa rates per month $11.37 or $14.53
I am confused by your method of arguing. You just make up lies and expect everyone to believe you.
Does this strategy work on other bears?
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
For the past 20 years, Tulsa trash ratepayers paid more than any major city in our surrounding states.
That is also an unassailable fact.
Again....Untrue.
Dallas trash rates per month $20.41
Little Rock rates per month $20.99
Oklahoma City rates per month $13.91
Tulsa rates per month $11.37 or $14.53
I am confused by your method of arguing. You just make up lies and expect everyone to believe you.
Does this strategy work on other bears?
The local
Lorton's World seems to think that the trash-to-energy plant resulted in HIGHER trash rates for the past 20 years.
It indicates for instance that until the debt was paid off and the plant shut down, our COMMERCIAL trash rates were
DOUBLE that of area cities.
DOUBLE certainly
seems like a lot more.
P.S.
The Lorton's World let's you research their Archives for free, Recycle.
Here's the link:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070719_1_A8_hBusi87150
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070719_1_A8_hBusi87150
[/url]
Back during Mayor MisFortune's mis-administration, when Ogden-Martin (now Covanta) went Bankrupt, there were BELATEDLY some useful
Lorton's Worldarticles concerning the history of the Trash-to-Energy White Elephant, including a comparison of Tulsa's rates to other major cities in our surrounding states.
Their news articles at the time recited a selected city-by-city comparison of Tulsa to major cities in the surrounding states. That is my "unimpeachable" source. The
Lorton's World.Also, from a 11/05/06
Lorton's World article:
The cost of waste: Today, the city has the most expensive residential and commercial garbage collection rates in the area.
Most Tulsans pay $14.53 per month for twice-a-week curbside service that does not include supplied containers or the cost of recycling, which carries an additional $2 fee.
Oklahoma City residents pay $13.91 for once-a-week service that includes the use of large, city-supplied containers, as well as curbside recycling.
Rates in area suburbs range from $7.56 per month in Sapulpa to $12.25 per month in Broken Arrow, a recent survey found.
Tulsa is only able to keep its rate at the current level because of a $7 million loan the city took out three years ago to help offset the payments it makes to the plant.
The actual cost for the $14.53 service is $15.94, but city leaders vowed years ago not to boost residential rates again.
Similarly, the commercial rate of $2.58 per cubic yard is roughly double the rate charged in other cities.
For example, a popular convenience store chain has a Tulsa location with a monthly trash bill amounting to $534 and another in Owasso that has a bill of $270 for the exact same service.
The reason for the high rates is because of the high disposal and debt costs at the plant.
Taking trash to the plant costs the city $23.50 per ton for disposal, plus about $24 per ton is paid toward the debt -- amounting to nearly $48 per ton. Here's the link:
http://http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=061105_Ne_A21_Every35071
And, from a 5/01/05 Lorton's World article:
Fast-forward to 2005. In essence, the cost of incineration since its inception has gone up more than 500 percent. This cost is passed on to local businesses and industries, while Oklahoma continues to have some of the nation's most competitive and most abundant landfill space.
This is an indirect but powerful blow to the local economy. The average restaurant in Tulsa pays two to three times what neighboring cities pay, while apartments pay twice the Southwest average.
The information in the Tulsa World was for a snapshot in 2005 and was a generalization. Apartment owner Case Management and restaurant management from Charlie's Chicken came to public meetings and said that they were getting a better price on their outside of Tulsa properties.
That was because their hauler, American Waste had just bought and re-opened a landfill just west of town. American Waste did all they could to close the trash-to-energy plant from a competitive standpoint. When the largest hauling companies own the largest landfills, they are able to offer disposal rates that were way below market levels. The rates for select customers in 2005 were cheap. It was not that way for everybody.
Yes, commercial businesses paid more than they should have for trash services in Tulsa for 20 years. They paid slightly more for most of the years, and dramatically more the last couple of years because of the landfill reopening. Remember, one of the biggest landfills in the state, the Quarry landfill owned by Waste Management, also opened after the burn plant opened. When you have landfills opening in the metro area, prices will be adjusted accordingly.
Tulsa was forced to charge accordingly because then Mayor Jim Inhofe bound them to. The elected officials who followed, including six mayors and dozens of city councilors, could do nothing to change the terms.
The trash to energy plant required Tulsa ratepayers to finance 180 million dollars in debt over 20 years. It was a stupid contract that Inhofe agreed to. I protested the deal back then as well.
Most cities in America have seen their disposal facilities close in the last twenty years. Their disposal rates have gone up as their trucks have had to drive further distances . Many of them they have started recycling programs to reduce the amount of refuse they produce.
Tulsa businesses paid more than suburb businesses, but were still way below the national average for trash disposal. Now, with the burn plant out of the equation and two big landfill nearby, Tulsa businesses have among the lowest trash rates in the country.
I think today's low trash disposal rates, among the cheapest in the country, could be also called the "Tulsa Premium".
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
The information in the Tulsa World was for a snapshot in 2005 and was a generalization. Apartment owner Case Management and restaurant management from Charlie's Chicken came to public meetings and said that they were getting a better price on their outside of Tulsa properties.
That was because their hauler, American Waste had just bought and re-opened a landfill just west of town. American Waste did all they could to close the trash-to-energy plant from a competitive standpoint. When the largest hauling companies own the largest landfills, they are able to offer disposal rates that were way below market levels. The rates for select customers in 2005 were cheap. It was not that way for everybody.
Yes, commercial businesses paid more than they should have for trash services in Tulsa for 20 years. They paid slightly more for most of the years, and dramatically more the last couple of years because of the landfill reopening. Remember, one of the biggest landfills in the state, the Quarry landfill owned by Waste Management, also opened after the burn plant opened. When you have landfills opening in the metro area, prices will be adjusted accordingly.
Tulsa was forced to charge accordingly because then Mayor Jim Inhofe bound them to. The elected officials who followed, including six mayors and dozens of city councilors, could do nothing to change the terms.
The trash to energy plant required Tulsa ratepayers to finance 180 million dollars in debt over 20 years. It was a stupid contract that Inhofe agreed to. I protested the deal back then as well.
Most cities in America have seen their disposal facilities close in the last twenty years. Their disposal rates have gone up as their trucks have had to drive further distances . Many of them they have started recycling programs to reduce the amount of refuse they produce.
Tulsa businesses paid more than suburb businesses, but were still way below the national average for trash disposal. Now, with the burn plant out of the equation and two big landfill nearby, Tulsa businesses have among the lowest trash rates in the country.
I think today's low trash disposal rates, among the cheapest in the country, could be also called the "Tulsa Premium".
It's nice to know that the
Lorton's World reportedly accurately on our much higher than average Trash Rates due to the 20-year costs of the Trash-to-Energy Folly. Probably a First for them, as the copywrited
Grand Masters of the Half-Truth. I'm thrilled that Tulsa Residential water/sewer/trash customers got the $1.00 per month reduction in Trash rates. I hope they save it for the possibility that the Kaiser River Tax passes Oct. 9. They'll need it then.
A DEFINITE advantage haulage-wise was the Hall Trash-to-Energy plant proximity to an easy- access location.
A definite
disadvantage was the increased emissions right smack in the middle of our urban area.
But, being on the West Side of the Arkansas River, the city fathers perceived that it would fit right in with the Sewage Treatment plant, the two Refineries, the Concrete Plant, and the PSO Power plant. It's only WEST Tulsa, afterall, they pontificated......
P.S. Wonder how many campaign contributions $$'s Ogden-Martin or its officers contributed to Mayor Inhofe as his Send-off to the U.S. House of Representatives??
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Well, doesn't that make sense? If you have a "special" blend, as we do because of previous ozone issues, then, all things being equal, this blend is going to cost more, right?
Pretty much what I said, CL.
However, that is a "summertime" blend. Still doesn't explain why gas was .10 cheaper in OKC last winter.
Hmmm....
1. Largest gasoline distributor in town...check.
2. Can set prices as they see fit...check.
3. Gas at QT in OKC is less...check.
Unless the gas they buy for Tulsa is more expensive then something is not right.
There are no QT's in OKC. So I can not make that comparison you mention.
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Originally posted by joiei
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by Conan71
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Originally posted by Chicken Little
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Originally posted by Conan71
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Well, doesn't that make sense? If you have a "special" blend, as we do because of previous ozone issues, then, all things being equal, this blend is going to cost more, right?
Pretty much what I said, CL.
However, that is a "summertime" blend. Still doesn't explain why gas was .10 cheaper in OKC last winter.
Hmmm....
1. Largest gasoline distributor in town...check.
2. Can set prices as they see fit...check.
3. Gas at QT in OKC is less...check.
Unless the gas they buy for Tulsa is more expensive then something is not right.
There are no QT's in OKC. So I can not make that comparison you mention.
Some friends went thru McKinney and Plano to Dallas this past Labor Day weekend.
They were surprised that regular unleaded gasoline ranged from $2.63 to $2.69 vs. $2.89 in Tulsa.
That's the
Tulsa Premium.
This fuel thing is something else. it does not look as if we will ever see $2.00 a gallon fuel anymore. I live in Columbus, Ohio and it's just like Tulsa, all the stations jack up the price fast and at about the same time. We have no QT stores in Ohio We have "SpeedWay" who seems to be the fastest and the first to raise the price, but in less than a hour the new price is up all over town. it's now $3.09 a gallon. it was $2.70 a gallon yesterday on Labor Day. This really frosts me.[:(!]
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Originally posted by Steve
Gasoline is an inelastic commodity, that is demand does not fall proportionate to price increases.
Gasoline retailers in Tulsa will charge whatever price the market will bear, given their wholesale cost. There is nothing illegal going on I think, just good old supply and demand at work. Isn't that the "American Way?"
The only way gasoline prices are going to significantly fall permanently is for the driving public to decrease demand on a long-term basis. As long as we keep driving gas-hog vehicles and such and demand continues to rise, gas prices will continue to rise too. I think demand is much more of a factor in gas prices than supply.
The thing is if you cut back oil use OPEC will cut back oil production and the supply stays tight, we cut back more, OPEC cuts back more. What will lower the price is more oil on the market & more drilling. There really is no oil shortage in the world, it's all a man-made shortage. We can't drill in Alaska, and we can't drill here and we can't drill there. Alsaka is floating on a sea of oil as is the Gulf Of Mexico, but enviromental wackos won't allow drilling. Oil seems to be one thing where the free market supply & demand thing does not work. Oil is like food we have to buy it. Other reasons for high fuel costs is gov't regs. There is also no incentive for oil companies to build new refineries, why should they spend billions of dollars for a new refinery when a new refinery will lower gasoline prices and cut profits? Gasoline prices are very tight, we even have to import gasoline because we don't have all the refinery space. A little refinery fire 1,000 miles away will raise gas prices all over. When we had hurricanes 30 & 40 years ago gasoline prices did not jump 50 cents a gallon overnight. A terrorist attack on a few refineries will cripple the nations transportation. it's not looking good in my view.[:(!]
Opps, I'd like to add, I bet in the year 2008 we will see $4.00 a gallon gasoline in the Summer.
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There really is no oil shortage in the world, it's all a man-made shortage. We can't drill in Alaska, and we can't drill here and we can't drill there. Alsaka is floating on a sea of oil as is the Gulf Of Mexico, but enviromental wackos won't allow drilling. Oil seems to be one thing where the free market supply & demand thing does not work. Oil is like food we have to buy it. Other reasons for high fuel costs is gov't regs. There is also no incentive for oil companies to build new refineries, why should they spend billions of dollars for a new refinery when a new refinery will lower gasoline prices and cut profits? Gasoline prices are very tight, we even have to import gasoline because we don't have all the refinery space. A little refinery fire 1,000 miles away will raise gas prices all over. When we had hurricanes 30 & 40 years ago gasoline prices did not jump 50 cents a gallon overnight. A terrorist attack on a few refineries will cripple the nations transportation. it's not looking good in my view.[:(!]
It is unclear whether or not you are as dumb as you sound but here is the way the petroleum market works.
Neither the producer nor the producer sets the price and average worldwide refinery margins are generally modest. Prices are set on the worldwide financial exchanges that trade contracts on crude oil and refined products. These prices are a minute to minute reflection of how investors view future needs for energy and petroleum products. All parties are at the mercy of those estimates.
That is the way the market works – even someone from Ohio should be able to understand it.
OK, but that is not the "Free-Market" and "Supply & Demand" like what the other poster mentioned. The demand for gasoline is very steady we used as much gasoline nation wide last week as we are going to use this week. Last week gasoline was selling for $2.70 a gallon, this week it was selling for $3.09 with the same demand. The demand stays the same but the price changes. People use about the same amount of fuel no matter the price we have to have it--it's like food we need it to do our daily lives, get to work and to the stores. There also is no comp. between stations. The price is the same all over the city. If ya take it on a world scale the price can be anything.
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Originally posted by sauerkraut
OK, but that is not the "Free-Market" and "Supply & Demand" like what the other poster mentioned. The demand for gasoline is very steady we used as much gasoline nation wide last week as we are going to use this week. Last week gasoline was selling for $2.70 a gallon, this week it was selling for $3.09 with the same demand. The demand stays the same but the price changes. People use about the same amount of fuel no matter the price we have to have it--it's like food we need it to do our daily lives, get to work and to the stores. There also is no comp. between stations. The price is the same all over the city. If ya take it on a world scale the price can be anything.
One thing is really clear - you do not understand how markets work.
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Originally posted by joiei
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by Conan71
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Originally posted by Chicken Little
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Originally posted by Conan71
The marketers and refiners keep claiming it's our special blended fuel which is responsible for keeping us higher than other parts of the state.
Well, doesn't that make sense? If you have a "special" blend, as we do because of previous ozone issues, then, all things being equal, this blend is going to cost more, right?
Pretty much what I said, CL.
However, that is a "summertime" blend. Still doesn't explain why gas was .10 cheaper in OKC last winter.
Hmmm....
1. Largest gasoline distributor in town...check.
2. Can set prices as they see fit...check.
3. Gas at QT in OKC is less...check.
Unless the gas they buy for Tulsa is more expensive then something is not right.
There are no QT's in OKC. So I can not make that comparison you mention.
that is not a premium, that is the price of gas in Tulsa and most of Oklahoma. A good example of premium pricing is
in Ft Walton Beach, Fl you pay one price, in Destin, Fl which is 5 miles down the road you pay 5 cents more a gallon. That is where the higher dollar resorts and most of the tourists are and that is pricing at a premium.
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Originally posted by claygate39
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Originally posted by sauerkraut
OK, but that is not the "Free-Market" and "Supply & Demand" like what the other poster mentioned. The demand for gasoline is very steady we used as much gasoline nation wide last week as we are going to use this week. Last week gasoline was selling for $2.70 a gallon, this week it was selling for $3.09 with the same demand. The demand stays the same but the price changes. People use about the same amount of fuel no matter the price we have to have it--it's like food we need it to do our daily lives, get to work and to the stores. There also is no comp. between stations. The price is the same all over the city. If ya take it on a world scale the price can be anything.
One thing is really clear - you do not understand how markets work.
I don't think anyone understands how fuel/oil prices work. About a year ago or so WLW radio 700 in Cincinatti, Ohio The radio show host Mike McConnel was interviewing an oil company executive about how the gasoline prices work and why they change so fast up & down and why the prices go up fast and are slow to fall, and he could not give a clear answer- he talked in circles for the most part. This guy was in the oil industry. [B)]