Now this puts a smile on my face,only if other states would follow in Oklahoma's footsteps.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57313
Thousands of Hispanics have fled the Tulsa, Okla., area in the shadow of a looming state law that limits benefits and mandates deportation for illegal aliens, according to a report from KTUL television in Tulsa.
The state of Oklahoma recently approved a new law that requires deportation for illegal aliens who are arrested, and limits benefits and jobs to those individuals. The report said in East Tulsa, where a community of Hispanics has grown over recent years, there's been a sudden drop in population.
snip..
The Republican who wrote HB 1804, Randy Terrill of Moore, said the plan doesn't discriminate, harass or single out anyone, unless they are breaking the law.
"This isn't about whether you are for or against immigration, or for or against immigrants. It doesn't matter what your skin color is or if you speak with an accent. What matters is if you are in the country legally or illegally. The only people threatened by House Bill 1804 are those who choose to break the law," he said.
It eliminates most taxpayer subsidies for illegal immigrants and allows state and local law enforcement officers to verify the residency status of those arrested. It also cracks down on business owners who employ illegal immigrants.
What you DON'T understand is that MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEAVING EAST TULSA AND ALL PARTS OF TULSA ARE HERE LEGALLY!!!
You are breaking up FAMILIES.
I thought Tulsans and Oklahomans took great pride in calling themselves "family friendly."
When this country has refused to enforce its immigration laws for years and years... what do you expect?!?
What is a LEGAL US CITIZEN of hispanic descent supposed to say to family members in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, etc. when uncle Oscar or cousin Jose comes here to make a better living, in search of a better life?
"Stay home?" Nope. They will say "Stay away from Oklahoma."
And that will hurt this state in ways you right wing crazies will never understand. These families aren't moving to Mexico... they'll move to Texas or Arkansas or Colorado or Kansas or New Mexico...
Too bad the right wingers refuse to listen to their own president's moderation on the illegal immigrant question.
It was bad enough to move to this state just before the November elections and watch bigoted advertisements showing CHILDREN dressed as "aliens" going to school... yeah, those brown-skinned kids who are here in our midst robbing good little white, anglo-saxon protestant kids of a proper public school education. [xx(]
The Oklahoma Law taken on it's own merits is draconian in my view. But in the view of Oklahoma and Tulsa's hard working, law-abiding hispanic families, it's unintended consequences will be institutional racism. It's already happening...
Shameful.
***World Net Daily is one of the most amazingly one-sided, craptistic pieces of work I've ever had the displeasure of reading.
Snap USR!!!!Well said.
Gimme that ole time religion, state officials.
That report tonight was painful for those watching and fighting against hatred and intolerance. I felt the pain in the hispanic community seeing that story.
The report on the two legal immigrants who were held in the Tulsa jail for 4 days by ICE were direct results of racial profiling. Lawsuit pending. Rightfully so.
A pandoras box of backwater stink has been released and it's not Chamber of Commerce material.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
What you DON'T understand is that MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEAVING EAST TULSA AND ALL PARTS OF TULSA ARE HERE LEGALLY!!!
If they are here legally then they would have nothing to fear from Oklahoma's laws.
quote:
You are breaking up FAMILIES.
It's not my fault someone came here illegally,I want my country's laws enforced.
quote:
I thought Tulsans and Oklahomans took great pride in calling themselves "family friendly."
We are also a state and city of laws and we do not appreciate people ****ting all over our immigration laws and other laws.
quote:
What is a LEGAL US CITIZEN of hispanic descent supposed to say to family members in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, etc. when uncle Oscar or cousin Jose comes here to make a better living, in search of a better life?
Screw uncle Oscar or cousin Jose if they want to come here illegal.If they want to make a better life for themselves here then they can do it legally like all the other immigrants who are here legally.
quote:
And that will hurt this state in ways you right wing crazies will never understand. These families aren't moving to Mexico... they'll move to Texas or Arkansas or Colorado or Kansas or New Mexico...
It's not just people on the right who are sick of it 12-20 million people ****ting all over our immigration laws,the left is sick of it too.The left wants our immigration laws enforced too.The only ones who don't want our immigration laws enforced are illegals and pro-illegals scum.
quote:
And that will hurt this state in ways you right wing crazies will never understand. These families aren't moving to Mexico... they'll move to Texas or Arkansas or Colorado or Kansas or New Mexico...
I am sure other states will enact laws similar to Oklahoma's once they get sick of illegals and hopefully the rats in office on a federal level will get a clue and start enforcing our immigration laws.
quote:
Too bad the right wingers refuse to listen to their own president's moderation on the illegal immigrant question.
I don't call granting legal status to illegals and same old empty promises of enforcement a form of moderation.
quote:
The Oklahoma Law taken on it's own merits is draconian in my view. But in the view of Oklahoma and Tulsa's hard working, law-abiding hispanic families,
Illegals are not law abiding,if they were law abiding they would not be here illegally.If the families of illegals were law abiding too they would tell their law breaking relatives to go the **** back home.
quote:
it's unintended consequences will be institutional racism. It's already happening...
I find it amusing the same people who fraudulently use the race/xenophobe/Hispaniphobe/anti-immigratnt card are the same ones who lump immigrants and Americans of Hispanic decent in with illegals. If I was a immigrant or an American of Hispanic decent I would be ****en pissed every time some pro-illegals group masqueraded as some hispanic or immigrant group.This is why most people with common sense don't buy the BS claims of racism by illegals and pro-illegals.
quote:
***World Net Daily is one of the most amazingly one-sided, craptistic pieces of work I've ever had the displeasure of reading.
World net daily got the story from KTUL channel 8,you would know that if you read World net like you claimed.So if you have problems with the story complain to channel 8.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
That report tonight was painful for those watching and fighting against hatred and intolerance. I felt the pain in the hispanic community seeing that story.
Gee, I really disagree.Hatred and intolerance?The only intolerance is towards law breaking,which is what illegal immigration is.Most people do not have a problem with LEGAL IMMIGRANTS.Most people do not give a **** what color your skin is as long as you are here LEGALLY.The only people in the Hispanic community feeling any pain are those who are here illegally and those harboring criminals aka illegal aliens.
quote:
The report on the two legal immigrants who were held in the Tulsa jail for 4 days by ICE were direct results of racial profiling. Lawsuit pending. Rightfully so.
No it was not a result of racial profiling, it was the direct result of someone not providing proof their legal status.
I really think you are angry and disagree with your position.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
edited per above
I take it that you do not have anything good to counter what I said?
Remember, folks, jamesrage is a parody of a deranged right-winger. Don't take his his comedic rhetoric seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Remember, folks, jamesrage is a parody of a deranged right-winger. Don't take his his comedic rhetoric seriously.
There is nothing comedic about my rhetoric nor am I a parody of anyone.Most people across the country feel exactly the same way I do about illegal immigration.It is the pro-illegals and illegals who are the minority.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
That report tonight was painful for those watching and fighting against hatred and intolerance. I felt the pain in the hispanic community seeing that story.
What a load of horse ****.Hatred and intolerance?The only intolerance is towards law breaking,which is what illegal immigration is.Most people do not have a problem with LEGAL IMMIGRANTS.Most people do not give a **** what color your skin is as long as you are here LEGALLY.The only people in the Hispanic community feeling any pain are those who are here illegally and those harboring criminals aka illegal aliens.
quote:
The report on the two legal immigrants who were held in the Tulsa jail for 4 days by ICE were direct results of racial profiling. Lawsuit pending. Rightfully so.
No it was not a result of racial profiling, it was the direct result of someone not providing proof their legal status.
Law breaking is the cover for those who have been intolerant for years and now have their excuse to spew their venom.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
That report tonight was painful for those watching and fighting against hatred and intolerance. I felt the pain in the hispanic community seeing that story.
What a load of horse ****.Hatred and intolerance?The only intolerance is towards law breaking,which is what illegal immigration is.Most people do not have a problem with LEGAL IMMIGRANTS.Most people do not give a **** what color your skin is as long as you are here LEGALLY.The only people in the Hispanic community feeling any pain are those who are here illegally and those harboring criminals aka illegal aliens.
quote:
The report on the two legal immigrants who were held in the Tulsa jail for 4 days by ICE were direct results of racial profiling. Lawsuit pending. Rightfully so.
No it was not a result of racial profiling, it was the direct result of someone not providing proof their legal status.
Wrong. They provided the right info. However, there were 4 or 5 other's with the same name.
ICE refused to be flexible.
So if you want the laws enforced you are a racist? Wow, this country has slid down in morals since the days of my youth.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Law breaking is the cover for those who have been intolerant for years and now have their excuse to spew their venom.
Do you honestly believe those bogus accusations of hate and racism?Come on tell the truth.
People who against illegal immigration know those accusations are lies and only sad pathetic tactic by pro-illegals and illegals to try to continue violating anti-illegal laws. Since the accusations of racism and hatred are only lies then one has to wonder if the illegals and pro-illegals who spew those lies really believe them,of course there is the old saying that if you lie enough times you eventually believe it.
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
So if you want the laws enforced you are a racist? Wow, this country has slid down in morals since the days of my youth.
Thats the lie the illegals and pro-illegals are trying to spew.
James you seem to think that surrounding states are passing these laws for something other than pandering for votes. Do you think they will actually enforce them or merely sit back and reap the benefit of our well trained exitting workers? I think the latter.
As an example, when Kansas realizes economic gains from the hard working former OK residents, they will suddenly moderate their views and find the President's plan more acceptable. Remember that for many years after prohibition was reversed, except in OK, surrounding states reaped a bonanza of untaxed liqour sales at the border because of our good morals. When morality and economics collide the winner is $$.
You can't hold US citizens in jail (//%22http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7391%22) for days and days, it's the kind of bullcrap that sends a message to ALL legal residents...guilty until proven innocent. Can't blame them for leaving, can you? And another thing, Jamesrage, you should go ahead and pledge your support for some sales tax increases to offset the economic damage done here. Will you do that? You can't drive off twenty thousand people and expect things to be hunky-dory, can you? This will hurt Tulsa and help competitors in neighboring states. I guess what I'm saying is crappy solutions are not necessarily better than no solutions at all.
They brought it all on themselves....
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
They brought it all on themselves....
How did US citizens "(bring) it all on themselves?"
/It occurs to me that you may be speaking about Oklahoma taxpayers. Then yes, a small group of conservative jerks are responsible for driving taxpayers to competitor states. But I do not expect them to step up and take responsibility for the economic havoc that ensues. They'll find somebody else to blame...Indians, maybe?
I'm talking about the illegals......
You may not think your rhetoric is comedy, james, but I do. It's hilarious satire.
Jabbing quip removed.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/06-24-04.html
Reagan Embraced Free Trade and Immigration
by Daniel Griswold
Dan Griswold is associate director of the Center for Trade Policy Studies at the Cato Institute.
In the many eulogies to Ronald Reagan since his passing, virtually all acknowledge his role in defeating Soviet communism and reviving America's self-confidence. But another aspect of Reagan's record that should not be forgotten was his commitment to keeping America open to trade and immigration.
Reagan's vision of an America open to commerce and peaceful, hardworking immigrants contradicts the anti-trade and anti-immigration views espoused by Lou Dobbs, Bill O'Reilly, Pat Buchanan, Rep. Tom Tancredo of Colorado, and many others who claim to speak for the conservative causes Reagan largely defined.
Reagan's heart and head were clearly on the side of free trade. While president, he declared in 1986: "Our trade policy rests firmly on the foundation of free and open markets. I recognize ... the inescapable conclusion that all of history has taught: The freer the flow of world trade, the stronger the tides of human progress and peace among nations."
It was the Reagan administration that launched the Uruguay Round of multilateral trade negotiations in 1986 that lowered global tariffs and created the World Trade Organization. It was his administration that won approval of the U.S.-Canada Free Trade Agreement in 1988. That agreement soon expanded to include Mexico in what became the North American Free Trade Agreement, realizing a vision that Reagan first articulated in the 1980 campaign. It was Reagan who vetoed protectionist textile quota bills in 1985 and 1988.
During Reagan's eight years in office, Americans eagerly expanded their engagement in the global economy. In 1980, the year before Reagan became president, Americans spent a total of $334 billion on imported goods and services and payments on foreign investment in the United States. By 1988, his last year in office, American spending in the global economy had nearly doubled, to $663 billion. If Reagan was a "protectionist," it had no discernable effect on the ability of Americans to spend freely in the global marketplace. Fittingly, one of the major federal buildings on Pennsylvania Avenue is named the Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center.
Like most post-war presidents, Reagan championed free trade while selectively deviating from it. Critics of trade note correctly that Reagan negotiated "voluntary" import quotas for steel and Japanese cars and imposed Section 201 tariffs on imported motorcycles to protect Harley-Davidson. All true. But those were the exceptions and not the rule. They were tactical retreats designed to defuse rising protectionists pressures in Congress.
Reagan's words and deeds regarding immigration were equally expansive. At a ceremony at Ellis Island in 1982, he spoke movingly of immigrants who "possessed a determination that with hard work and freedom, they would live a better life and their children even more so." As with trade, Reagan's record on immigration was mixed. He signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, which included stepped up border enforcement and sanctions against employers who knowingly hire illegal workers. But that legislation also legalized 2.8 million undocumented workers. More immigrants entered the United States legally under President Reagan's watch than under any previous U.S. president since Teddy Roosevelt.
Like President George W. Bush today, Reagan had the good sense and compassion to see illegal immigrants not as criminals but as human beings striving to build better lives through honest work. In a radio address in 1977, he noted that apples were rotting on trees in New England because no Americans were willing to pick them. "It makes one wonder about the illegal alien fuss. Are great numbers of our unemployed really victims of the illegal alien invasion or are those illegal tourists actually doing work our own people won't do?" Reagan asked. "One thing is certain in this hungry world; no regulation or law should be allowed if it results in crops rotting in the fields for lack of harvesters."
In his farewell address to the nation in January 1989, Reagan beautifully wove his view of free trade and immigration into his vision of a free society: "I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and heart to get here."
Compare Reagan's hopeful, expansive, and inclusive view of America with the dour, crabbed, and exclusive view that characterizes certain conservatives who would claim his mantle. Their view of the world could not be more alien to the spirit of Ronald Reagan.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
That report tonight was painful for those watching and fighting against hatred and intolerance. I felt the pain in the hispanic community seeing that story.
What a load of horse ****.Hatred and intolerance?The only intolerance is towards law breaking,which is what illegal immigration is.Most people do not have a problem with LEGAL IMMIGRANTS.Most people do not give a **** what color your skin is as long as you are here LEGALLY.The only people in the Hispanic community feeling any pain are those who are here illegally and those harboring criminals aka illegal aliens.
quote:
The report on the two legal immigrants who were held in the Tulsa jail for 4 days by ICE were direct results of racial profiling. Lawsuit pending. Rightfully so.
No it was not a result of racial profiling, it was the direct result of someone not providing proof their legal status.
These two people were born and raised in the United States. Both had valid driver licenses as legal forms of identification.
I will ask my question again, which nobody seems to want to answer: What do you, as a citizen of the United States, carry on your person to prove you are a US citizen? When you were born in the US, what did the government provide to you to prove you are a US citizen?
What more could these two individuals do, in your mind, to prove they were US citizens?
This community is going to be paying this lawsuit off for a long time, and rightfully so.
And these 2 were the first people held for longer than they should have been.....You don't think anyone white has been detained for as long if not longer....Why do you think we will be paying for it....Your other question about my status does not really make much sense.....
This is exactly what I envisioned would happen and I am so proud to have been a part of making sure this legislation was passed. The voice of the majority has spoken over the cries of a few disenchanted Stalinist's who would keep a slave class here under the guise of compassion. While I am thrilled that this law is sending law breakers running this is only the start. The border must be sealed and even more importantly our guest worker and legal immigration programs must be totally reworked so we can regain any lost immigrant workers back that are a necessity to our economy. Interestingly enough, the schools have reported that very few Hispanic students are missing so it sounds like either we are hearing a false cry of foul from the liberal slave holders or the illegals leaving are the ones that wouldn't have been able to be here legally in the first place in which case I can only say bravo. Now watch the rest of the nation follow and the healing of our nation can begin!
Hmm. Sounds like truth4freedom is dabbling in satire, too!
Keep it up, guys. It's good for some laughs.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
They brought it all on themselves....
Actually, in Texas when dubya was guv he brought it on knowing the illegals would help grow the states economy.
Admin:
No; I don't believe that we can discuss imigration in any form without posters going overboard that in the end is reduced to the racial cards. Many do not understand we are a nation without a race nor a specific national species. We are the melting pot of many races that is overflowing.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
They brought it all on themselves....
How did US citizens "(bring) it all on themselves?"
/It occurs to me that you may be speaking about Oklahoma taxpayers. Then yes, a small group of conservative jerks are responsible for driving taxpayers to competitor states. But I do not expect them to step up and take responsibility for the economic havoc that ensues. They'll find somebody else to blame...Indians, maybe?
Illegal workforce does not equal significantly cheaper prices.Labor legal or illegal is only a small percentage of the cost.It is a bold face lie to sit there and that if we don't have illegal labor then prices will go sky high.
quote:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_imprices19.html
More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.
You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices — call it the "illegal-worker discount" — is surprisingly small.
The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.
The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor — whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born — represents only a sliver of the retail price.
Consider those apples — Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.
At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
So if you want the laws enforced you are a racist? Wow, this country has slid down in morals since the days of my youth.
Morals? Yeah, right. Segregation, Jim Crow laws, civil unrest in the 60s.... every generation of old farts insists the previous generation has loose morals...
Let's talk about what's been legal and illegal over the years....
http://www.netstate.com/states/intro/ok_intro.htm
quote:
The Sooner State: "Unassigned Lands" in Oklahoma were offered to settlers through a series of "Land Openings" where newcomers initially competed for the land in horse races. The Land Run of 1889 began the process of disposing of these Unassigned Lands. The Homestead Act of 1862 provided that a legal settler could claim 160 acres of public land, and those who lived on and improved the claim for five years could receive title.
People who entered the district illegally to lay claim to lands, before the designated entry time, were called "Sooners." The name came from a section in the Indian Appropriations Act of March 2, 1889, that said that nobody would be permitted to enter upon and occupy the land before the time designated in the President's opening proclamation and that those that did would be denied rights to the land. This section became known as the "sooner clause."
Early legal settlers had a very low opinion of Sooners of course. This began to change by 1908 when the University of Oklahoma named the football team the "Sooners." Like many nicknames, this one's negative connotations faded over time and the name, Sooners, is now worn with pride. Though not official, Oklahoma is popularly known as "The Sooner State."
Hypocrisy, thy name is
Sooner.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
Illegal workforce does not equal significantly cheaper prices.Labor legal or illegal is only a small percentage of the cost.It is a bold face lie to sit there and that if we don't have illegal labor then prices will go sky high.
You really don't get it, do you? 20,000 people is about 5% of Tulsa's population, and they support city services by purchasing goods and services (sales tax). It's really straightforward. If you chase off 5% of the sales tax (and by that I mean YOU, specifically), then you should be willing to pay an extra amount in sales tax, water bills, ambulance fees, etc., in order to offset those losses. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to raise taxes on yourself?
I didn't say anything about the cost of roofs, or yardwork, or hvac, I'm talking strictly about sales tax. If you chase off 20,000 people, the revenue that they provided for streets, police, fire, water, sewer, etc., goes with them. Either you are willing to bear the extra burden or you aren't, which is it?
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
20,000 people is about 5% of Tulsa's population, and they support city services by purchasing goods and services (sales tax). It's really straightforward. If you chase off 5% of the sales tax (and by that I mean YOU, specifically), then you should be willing to pay an extra amount in sales tax, water bills, ambulance fees, etc., in order to offset those losses.
You are missing the point. If 20k stop paying sales tax because they leave, 20k are also not using water, electricity, fire, medical, etc. So the loss in sales tax revenue is offset by the reduction in used services. The last time I checked smaller communities spent less on public services than large communities. Simple math.
Imagine what it'll do to the housing market. Not just building, but you know the housing market is suffering from all these sub-prime deals. The rental markets in Tulsa have been hurting because of population loss and easy home financing.
In Tulsa, the last few years while we were dropping population, people were still buying houses and a whole lot of rental property went on the market, driving the price down. A lot of apartment complexes have way too much empty space. Sending 20,000 renters out of the market may force a lot of apartment complexes to eventually become Housing Authority.
I think we increased our potential for blight, even without consideration of the potential loss on the sales tax base.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
You really don't get it, do you? 20,000 people is about 5% of Tulsa's population, and they support city services by purchasing goods and services (sales tax). It's really straightforward. If you chase off 5% of the sales tax (and by that I mean YOU, specifically), then you should be willing to pay an extra amount in sales tax, water bills, ambulance fees, etc., in order to offset those losses. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to raise taxes on yourself?
Cry me a
Try not to use the **** things please river. It is the pro-illegals that got us into this situation and 20,000 of the poorest people in Tulsa can not be contributing much in sales tax revenue considering the fact that A. they are poor and B. the majority of it goes back to their home countries.If Tulsa really is dependent on sale tax revenue of illegals it is the fault of pro-illegals for tolerating criminals,not those who want our laws obeyed.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Imagine what it'll do to the housing market. Not just building, but you know the housing market is suffering from all these sub-prime deals. The rental markets in Tulsa have been hurting because of population loss and easy home financing.
In Tulsa, the last few years while we were dropping population, people were still buying houses and a whole lot of rental property went on the market, driving the price down. A lot of apartment complexes have way too much empty space. Sending 20,000 renters out of the market may force a lot of apartment complexes to eventually become Housing Authority.
I think we increased our potential for blight, even without consideration of the potential loss on the sales tax base.
When you profit off of criminal activity you have no one else to blame but yourself for your loss of business when the criminals get booted or driven out.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
When you profit off of criminal activity you have no one else to blame but yourself for your loss of business when the criminals get booted or driven out.
No, when East Tulsa loses a huge chunk of population and we're still having to provide policing and repair infrastructure with our decreased tax base, I'm blaming you,
insult removed.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
When you profit off of criminal activity you have no one else to blame but yourself for your loss of business when the criminals get booted or driven out.
No, when East Tulsa loses a huge chunk of population and we're still having to provide policing and repair infrastructure with our decreased tax base, I'm blaming you, numb-nuts.
Loss of population would only mean a stress on infrastructure if those people lost were in the first place legal and paying taxes on their incomes. Property taxes? These people are renting. Who rents to illegals? Slumlords. If some slumlord is having financial difficulties, he'll just sell to a bigger richer slumlord. Or maybe, just maybe, a slumlord forced to sell would end up selling to a legitimite legal citizen of the US who will possibly occupy the home, pay taxes, be paid legit, participate in normal US culture, and generate new economic activity. What a horrible thing for East Tulsa!
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
No, when East Tulsa loses a huge chunk of population and we're still having to provide policing and repair infrastructure with our decreased tax base, I'm blaming you, numb-nuts.
No you and other pro-illegals have only yourself to blame for profiting off of criminal behavior.You know it is illegal to hire illegals and you didn't report illegals to immigration authorities,so it is your fault for trying to profit it off of illegals.
BTW if most illegals live tightly packed in single family homes,earn below minimum wage and send the rest of their money to their home country,how can they really be contributing much in taxes?Is there a really huge tax for using money wiring services?
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
When you profit off of criminal activity you have no one else to blame but yourself for your loss of business when the criminals get booted or driven out.
No, when East Tulsa loses a huge chunk of population and we're still having to provide policing and repair infrastructure with our decreased tax base, I'm blaming you, numb-nuts.
Loss of population would only mean a stress on infrastructure if those people lost were in the first place legal and paying taxes on their incomes. Property taxes? These people are renting. Who rents to illegals? Slumlords. If some slumlord is having financial difficulties, he'll just sell to a bigger richer slumlord. Or maybe, just maybe, a slumlord forced to sell would end up selling to a legitimite legal citizen of the US who will possibly occupy the home, pay taxes, be paid legit, participate in normal US culture, and generate new economic activity. What a horrible thing for East Tulsa!
Amen to that.. Wow, I can't believe some of the comments I'm hearing from the slaveowner left.
Slaveowner left?
You mean pro-immigration folk like President Bush?
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Slaveowner left?
You mean pro-immigration folk like President Bush?
Pro illegal and liberal Bush. Bush is not a conservative and just as much a part of the slave owner left as anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
Loss of population would only mean a stress on infrastructure if those people lost were in the first place legal and paying taxes on their incomes. Property taxes? These people are renting. Who rents to illegals? Slumlords. If some slumlord is having financial difficulties, he'll just sell to a bigger richer slumlord. Or maybe, just maybe, a slumlord forced to sell would end up selling to a legitimite legal citizen of the US who will possibly occupy the home, pay taxes, be paid legit, participate in normal US culture, and generate new economic activity. What a horrible thing for East Tulsa!
Tulsa collects income tax and "slumlords" don't pay property taxes? Both are those are wrong, not that you knew, nor that your lack of knowledge makes you a complete idiot.
You can probably expect your aryan brothers to flee afterwards as housing simply gets boarded up and shopping becomes less prevalent. You're not pulling a magic trick out of your ar$e, not on this one. You might try learning how the city works. If 20K is anywhere near true, everything we're trying to correct in North Tulsa, you've doomed East Tulsa to the same fate.
I was in a discussion like this a few weeks ago that was shut down by the admin. There was actually less name-calling in that discussion.
Does it actually make a point more logical and acceptable if you call someone a racist? What a cheap way out of an intelligent conversation.
Many of the posts on here look like they come from a schoolyard fight instead of from responsible adults trying to discuss disparate views. Do you guys even read what you've written? Or do you just get a kick out of name-calling?
Some of us are truly interested in dialogue on immigration. Unfortunately - it has become impossible on this board. What a shame.
Do they pay their Auto insurance....Federal and State taxes...Medicare taxes.....Excise tax....Automobile Tag.....Drivers License.....Anything......
quote:
Most people across the country [feel the same way I do]
Not really. It's easy to take that view in Oklahoma, but you are encountering this much opposition on a fairly conservative board in one of the most conservative states in the union. If most people held this view, illegals could be rounded up and shot.
There are nearly as many people that feel we should have open immigration as those that hold your view. Most people are in the middle but LEAN towards enforcement for various reasons.
So lets pretend every illegal immigrant leaves Tulsa today. What good have we accomplished? My roof wont get fixed this season, construction in general comes to a stand still, phone books arent delivered, lawns arent mowed and most restaurants have no cooks. Not the end of the world, but what, really - have we accomplished? For what greater good?
I wish people would go through the process and come legally. But our incompetent government has made it nearly impossible to do that even for highly skilled workers. Not able to come legally, I cannot begrudge a father for coming to America in the hopes of a better life for his family.
And I am not one to shed tears over "broken families" when they knew that was a risk when they came. It sucks to be put in that position, but enforcement of the laws is what it is. Anyone who has read more than 5 of my posts knows that I am a pretty staunch libertarian. I put more blame on our government for having a crappy immigration system (and policy) than on the immigrants.
So while I do not object too loudly to enforcement of the existing laws, I hope they are changed to better accommodate legal immigration. We are a nation of immigrants. Each wave was at first opposed, and later made us stronger. I hope our laws change to let that continue on some level.
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
I was in a discussion like this a few weeks ago that was shut down by the admin. There was actually less name-calling in that discussion.
Does it actually make a point more logical and acceptable if you call someone a racist? What a cheap way out of an intelligent conversation.
No,
insults removed.
Noted: restored2x didn't
complain about "slaveowner left" or the concept that Hispanics are in any fashion "abnormal". You're already showing your hand.
Nor did restored2x complain about the archaic term, "Stalinists."
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
Oh cry me a ****en river.It is the pro-illegals that got us into this situation and 20,000 of the poorest people in Tulsa can not be contributing much in sales tax revenue considering the fact that A. they are poor and B. the majority of it goes back to their home countries.If Tulsa really is dependent on sale tax revenue of illegals it is the fault of pro-illegals for tolerating criminals,not those who want our laws obeyed.
Way to duck the question, James. I didn't ask you how much they contributed, I asked you if you were willing to pay for the losses when they leave.
Cowboy up and answer the question:
do you or
do you not have a problem with raising taxes on yourself to offset the losses when these people leave for competing cities?
You can't blame a cash register for taking money. To use your own words, you, as a citizen of Tulsa, are already "profiting" from transactions of illegal residents. When they go, that money leaves, too. I can't believe you haven't thought about the consequences of this vacuum you wish to create. So, answer the question and tell us where you stand.
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
I'm talking about the illegals......
It wasn't illegal immigrants, but US citizens, that were being held in the Tulsa County Jail.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
Way to duck the question, James. I didn't ask you how much they contributed, I asked you if you were willing to pay for the losses when they leave.
If anyone is to pay for what ever losses there are if any, it is is the pro-illegals who tolerated them.I don't buy drug dealers a new home just because they lost theirs when they got busted.
quote:
Cowboy up and answer the question: do you or do you not have a problem with raising taxes on yourself to offset the losses when these people leave for competing cities?
We should have never had that revenue from illegals in the first place because we are not supposed to be tolerating illegals and those who employ them.
quote:
You can't blame a cash register for taking money. To use your own words, you, as a citizen of Tulsa, are already "profiting" from transactions of illegal residents. When they go, that money leaves, too.
What money?IS there a huge city tax on money wire transfers?Is it significantly much cheaper to school children of illegals than those of legal residents? Do rich people come here illegally? Most illegals live together tightly packed in single family homes which is a result of earning below minimum wage,you poll your money together so you can have more to spend and their children attend public school. Most illegals after paying their share of their bills and food send money back to their home country because most illegals are here to earn money.
quote:
I can't believe you haven't thought about the consequences of this vacuum you wish to create.
I thought about this issue a hell a whole lot more than you you have.I know solving the illegal immigration problem is not going to be cheap but ignoring it will only make it worse.
We solve part of the problem by cutting off benifits and jobs to illegals and deport their donkey.I am well aware that immoral people all across the country have directly profited off of illegal immigration by hiring illegals and housing them,**** them they are of no concern.
quote:
So, answer the question and tell us where you stand.
We need to suck it up and suffer what ever loses there might be.
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
I was in a discussion like this a few weeks ago that was shut down by the admin. There was actually less name-calling in that discussion.
Does it actually make a point more logical and acceptable if you call someone a racist? What a cheap way out of an intelligent conversation.
The only reason why bogus accusations of racism are thrown around is because pro-illegals do not have a leg to stand on and they figure they can scare people into submission with bogus accusations of racism.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
The only reason why bogus accusations of racism are thrown around is because pro-illegals do not have a leg to stand on and they figure they can scare people into submission with bogus accusations of racism.
I don't know who called who a racist. I haven't seen it. But it is typical
some people to run and hide behind the notion.
personal attack removedinsult removed. And I strongly support the use of special words for special people. It's the only thing they understand.
I'm truly having too much fun. So back to restored2x point about threads being snuffed out, if I'm funning the thread is in trouble. Someone watches me like a hawk.
Thanks for making my point for me.
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
Thanks for making my point for me.
personal attack removed
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
Way to duck the question, James. I didn't ask you how much they contributed, I asked you if you were willing to pay for the losses when they leave.
If anyone is to pay for what ever losses there are if any, it is is the pro-illegals who tolerated them.I don't buy drug dealers a new home just because they lost theirs when they got busted.
Seems like my bible tells me that the righteous are rewarded in heaven. On earth, you're just another person with a problem. Just how do you propose to go about taxing the "lalegal lovers", or whatever you call them.
quote:
quote:
Cowboy up and answer the question: do you or do you not have a problem with raising taxes on yourself to offset the losses when these people leave for competing cities?
We should have never had that revenue from illegals in the first place because we are not supposed to be tolerating illegals and those who employ them.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda...what's done is done. You're just as guilty as the next person for accepting money from them. Moving forward, how do you think we should pay for the revenue loss when tens of thousands flee our City?
quote:
quote:
You can't blame a cash register for taking money. To use your own words, you, as a citizen of Tulsa, are already "profiting" from transactions of illegal residents. When they go, that money leaves, too.
What money?IS there a huge city tax on money wire transfers?Is it significantly much cheaper to school children of illegals than those of legal residents? Do rich people come here illegally? Most illegals live together tightly packed in single family homes which is a result of earning below minimum wage,you poll your money together so you can have more to spend and their children attend public school. Most illegals after paying their share of their bills and food send money back to their home country because most illegals are here to earn money.
Tens of thousands of people. They eat, they sleep, they live, work, and play here. They'll be an economic backlash when your stupid plan is enacted. Denial is a river, and you are way up it.
quote:
quote:
I can't believe you haven't thought about the consequences of this vacuum you wish to create.
I thought about this issue a hell a whole lot more than you you have.I know solving the illegal immigration problem is not going to be cheap but ignoring it will only make it worse.
We solve part of the problem by cutting off benifits and jobs to illegals and deport their donkey.I am well aware that immoral people all across the country have directly profited off of illegal immigration by hiring illegals and housing them,**** them they are of no concern.
No, James, I don't think you've thought about this enough. If you had, you'd recognize that Tulsa and the State of Oklahoma will suffer, and the surrounding states will all benefit: with new taxpayers, new workers, and new growth. In the end, you won't have solved this country's immigration problems. I just want to know what your game plan for the revenue loss is.
quote:
quote:
So, answer the question and tell us where you stand.
We need to suck it up and suffer what ever loses there might be.
That's your plan?
[Jamesrage impression]
Dear friend,
Sorry I screwed you over with a racist immigration reform plan, now all our neighbors are kicking our butts: with booming populations, soaring revenues, and growing workforces. Maybe you should suck it, because I'm not going to pay an extra dime for the problems I've caused with my dumb new laws. Whatever...I blame somebody else...unions...or Norwegians...dirty whale hunters.
Up Yours, Jamesrage[/Jamesrage impression]
What are you, a teenager or a Republican? Either way, that's the kind of talk you hear from people who don't take responsibility for their actions.
This thread is in danger of being closed (again). Tulsa Now attempts to provide a forum for open discussion of all topics and all opinions in a civil and constructive fashion. This thread is currently neither civil nor constructive.
Please refrain from personal insults and excessive swearing. Attacks on positions are excepted, but not on individuals. Swearing on the boards is discourage, even the use of all the d*** (darn) stars should be avoided.
I tried to edit posts to leave the meaning intact and did so without regard to position or poster. Further transgressions will result in thread lock down and/or deletion of posts.
Please get keep this thread on the straight and narrow.
Yeah, Norwegians. I think we can lay this on them. They don't have an army do they? Dang socialist Norwegians. I can see the bumper sticker now..."Uff Da my arse!" [:D]
Well, when it's all said and done, they are leaving and that's a good thing. It seems like many of you want illegals here to profit off their sweat without regard to the law. You keep talking about the economics of it all. If that's not taking advantage of a whole group of people then I don't know what is.
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
Well, when it's all said and done, they are leaving and that's a good thing. It seems like many of you want illegals here to profit off their sweat without regard to the law. You keep talking about the economics of it all. If that's not taking advantage of a whole group of people then I don't know what is.
Not what I'm saying at all, Lister. I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away. How about it? You ready to raise taxes on yourself?
Booooooooo, Mods, hissssssss!!!
It was somewhere around the point where restore2x tried to say that a jamesrage thread and "intelligent discussion" had some similarity that I snapped. My bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
Well, when it's all said and done, they are leaving and that's a good thing. It seems like many of you want illegals here to profit off their sweat without regard to the law. You keep talking about the economics of it all. If that's not taking advantage of a whole group of people then I don't know what is.
Not what I'm saying at all, Lister. I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away. How about it? You ready to raise taxes on yourself?
The answer to that is a definite YES. I won't sell out because I like the cost of slave labor. Michael C, be careful, or you'll end up like me, everything I submit has to go through Winston Smith for approval before it is posted because I got out of hand a couple of times. [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken LittleYou ready to raise taxes on yourself?
The answer to that is a definite YES. I won't sell out because I like the cost of slave labor. Michael C, be careful, or you'll end up like me, everything I submit has to go through Winston Smith for approval before it is posted because I got out of hand a couple of times. [:D]
Thank you for being a grownup, Lister. I respect someone who is willing to deal with the consequences of their actions...some of them, at least.
I disagree with our State's and our city's "solutions", for a number of reasons:
1. I think that the only way to implement these "solutions" effectively is through racial profiling;
2. Because of #1, they have already resulted in the wrongful persecution of US Citizens of Hispanic and Latino descent;
3. Because of #1 and #2, we are driving people away, many, if not most, here legally, and
4. Without a federal solution, the actions by the city and state are futile and unecessarily harmful to our economy...putting us at an economic disadvantage.
Moreover, I believe that the federal "solutions" since 1986, i.e., amnesties coupled with tougher immigration quotas, have resulted in a disasterous interruption in the flow of one of our country's greatest resources...people who come here with a dream. And I think that, if these folks were fair-skinned, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place, and deep down that really hurts. The irony here is that those immigrants are doing exactly what previous waves of immigrants (our forefathers) did, working hard and trying to get ahead. It's us that have forgotton what it means to be an American, not them.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away. How about it? You ready to raise taxes on yourself?
You still haven't answered my refutation of your point. Less demand on the services equals no increase in taxes. Simple economics. Maybe he still has me on ignore from a disagreement we had about homosexuality a few months back.
quote:
Originally posted by truth4freedom
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away. How about it? You ready to raise taxes on yourself?
You still haven't answered my refutation of your point. Less demand on the services equals no increase in taxes. Simple economics. Maybe he still has me on ignore from a disagreement we had about homosexuality a few months back.
City services are pretty inelastic. Streets, water, sewer, fire stations, etc., these things are already built and in place. The city is responsible for maintaining these systems, regardless of the amount of users. The trash trucks will still be going up and down every street, regardless of the number of vacant houses. Get it? Considering how bad the streets are already, do you really think it's a terrific idea to kick out 5-10% of our taxpayers? If there are fewer people supporting these things, then, logically, those people will have to pay more.
The only place where you have any wiggle room at all is with personnel, the majority of that goes to policemen and firemen. In theory, you could start laying off cops, but do you really think that's a good idea?
My point is, chasing off 20,000 or 50,000 people will have consequences. Big boys like Lister will face them...others apparently won't.
I don't remember a previous disagreement and I generally don't care about that stuff. I simply missed your question. Sorry about that.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
The only place where you have any wiggle room at all is with personnel, the majority of that goes to policemen and firemen. In theory, you could start laying off cops, but do you really think that's a good idea?
My point is, chasing off 20,000 or 50,000 people will have consequences. Big boys like Lister will face them...others apparently won't.
I don't remember a previous disagreement and I generally don't care about that stuff. I simply missed your question. Sorry about that.
I see your point on permanent infrastructure. As far as reduction in emergency personnel etc. I don't see that happening. You are right that a loss of citizens, legal or not, will hurt. But I submit to you that it will not hurt nearly as much as the draw illegal immigrants have on many social government programs and the medical field as well. When one hospital visit can rack up thousands of dollars overnight that is a much larger savings if it never happened than the tax revenue from a minimum wage earner. Sending an illegals children to school when they may or may not be filing for taxes is a massive imbalance.
Ultimately I am for driving out illegals because we have a slave class here making millions of dollars for wealthy employers. We are not doing these immigrants a favor by letting them slip under the radar, neither are we doing our justice system any good. And making them legal by a piece of legislation didn't work during the Reagan era so why would it be any different now? I want legal immigrant workers here, and I think that reworking the immigration procedure is just as important as demanding there not exist a slave class under our noses to make us more money and provide us with cheap labor. Unless a stand is taken ,the border sealed, and illegal immigrants are unable to exist here, we will never solve this issue. The mistake of many legislators and good hearted people is to try and legalize the immigrants first, then work on stopping the illegal flow. Only they have no intention of doing anything about the border or the broken justice system once millions of illegals are 'legalized'.
quote:
Originally posted by truth4freedom
I see your point on permanent infrastructure. As far as reduction in emergency personnel etc. I don't see that happening. You are right that a loss of citizens, legal or not, will hurt. But I submit to you that it will not hurt nearly as much as the draw illegal immigrants have on many social government programs and the medical field as well. When one hospital visit can rack up thousands of dollars overnight that is a much larger savings if it never happened than the tax revenue from a minimum wage earner. Sending an illegals children to school when they may or may not be filing for taxes is a massive imbalance.
Ultimately I am for driving out illegals because we have a slave class here making millions of dollars for wealthy employers. We are not doing these immigrants a favor by letting them slip under the radar, neither are we doing our justice system any good. And making them legal by a piece of legislation didn't work during the Reagan era so why would it be any different now? I want legal immigrant workers here, and I think that reworking the immigration procedure is just as important as demanding there not exist a slave class under our noses to make us more money and provide us with cheap labor. Unless a stand is taken ,the border sealed, and illegal immigrants are unable to exist here, we will never solve this issue. The mistake of many legislators and good hearted people is to try and legalize the immigrants first, then work on stopping the illegal flow. Only they have no intention of doing anything about the border or the broken justice system once millions of illegals are 'legalized'.
Assume, for a moment, that I agree with you that illegal aliens are a drain on welfare programs. Those are
federal programs. If you drive them from this state into another, you still end up paying the same amount. I'd speculate that as soon as the feds look at numbers, they'd cut back this state's entitlement. So, in reality, we might end up paying the same into the system and receiving
less. So, besides putting us in an unfair situation, what have you accomplished?
I, too, worry that our country is developing a permanent underclass...and a permanent aristocracy. But these "solutions" that are about to go into effect are pretty cruddy. Nobody's going to
reward Oklahoma for passing a few laws that amount to institutionalized racism.
Oh, and as for the kids...first, don't be mean, they're just kids for crying out loud. And second, property taxes support the schools. As long as the undocumented family owns or rents a place to live, then they are paying taxes directly or indirectly through their landlord. And don't be mad at the schools either. The LAW says they should be in school, regardless. I happen to like that law a lot...it reminds me that I'm an American, and there are still times when we feel a need to treat everybody equally. I guarantee the truant officer isn't paying attention to skin color, he'll toss that butterfly net over anybody.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
I happen to like that law a lot...it reminds me that I'm an American, and there are still times when we feel a need to treat everybody equally.
Then why are you opposing the law being enforced in the case of illegal immigrants to save a few bucks and create a special class that receives unequaled rights under the law? Do you agree with Mexico's immigration laws? Do you think that we as Americans should be able to enter their country, or any country for that matter at will then use their federal benefits regardless of our legal immigration status?
quote:
Originally posted by truth4freedom
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
I happen to like that law a lot...it reminds me that I'm an American, and there are still times when we feel a need to treat everybody equally.
Then why are you opposing the law being enforced in the case of illegal immigrants to save a few bucks and create a special class that receives unequaled rights under the law? Do you agree with Mexico's immigration laws? Do you think that we as Americans should be able to enter their country, or any country for that matter at will then use their federal benefits regardless of our legal immigration status?
I'm against Tulsa and Oklahoma acting on a problem that requires a federal solution, and I've already stated my reasons, among them, that people
aren't being treated equally. You're right, undocumented workers are preyed upon, but how does a law that treats all people who appear to be Latino and Hispanic unfairly make the situation any better? Two wrongs do not make a right.
As for the federal benefits, again, I have to question whether or not this is overblown. Sure, there are some people that end up in the ER. And yes,
some people get paid cash under the table, but that's not the norm. These days, I think a lot more folks are providing fake SSNs to their employers, and their employers in turn are paying federal withholding. I'm not condoning it, I'm simply saying that most of these guys are paying into the system. Maybe even more than you and me, since they aren't filing and getting refunds.
I really haven't studied Mexico's laws. I believe that you should follow the laws of the country you are in or be willing to accept the consequences. That goes for here, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken LittleThat's your plan?
[Jamesrage impression]
Dear friend,
Sorry I screwed you over with a racist immigration reform plan, now all our neighbors are kicking our butts: with booming populations, soaring revenues, and growing workforces. Maybe you should suck it, because I'm not going to pay an extra dime for the problems I've caused with my dumb new laws. Whatever...I blame somebody else...unions...or Norwegians...dirty whale hunters.
Up Yours, Jamesrage
[/Jamesrage impression]
Oh good more bogus accusations of racist and racist laws. Pro-illegals caused the problems,if anyone should pay the extra taxes it should be the businesses that knowingly hired illegals and the property owners who knowingly rented to illegals.
quote:
What are you, a teenager or a Republican? Either way, that's the kind of talk you hear from people who don't take responsibility for their actions.
Responsibility?If you were responsible you would not tolerate lawlessness too instead of trying to make asinine excuses for criminal behavior.
Here is Jamerage's actual impression
Dear friend,
YEAH!! WE WON!!,ILLEGALS AND THE PRO-ILLEGALS SCUM LOST,WE WON YOU LOST.If the other 49 states did what Oklahoma did we would not 12-20 million illegals in this country.Thank God Oklahoma exercised some common sense and dwelt with the illegal immigration problems in our state and thank God Oklahoma law makers did not listen to sell out businesses and other pro-illegals scum.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken LittleNot what I'm saying at all, Lister. I'd simply like to know if people like you are willing to pay a premium, i.e. more taxes, in order to fill the gap they leave after you chase them away. How about it? You ready to raise taxes on yourself?
What sales taxes have illegals been paying?Does Tulsa charge extremely high taxes on money wiring services to foreign countries,because that where illegals send most of their money to?What money can people who make below minimum wage contribute in sales taxes?No illegals means no children of illegals that have to schooled.No illegals in Tulsa means no illegals not using any city services.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Oh good more bogus accusations of racist and racist laws. Pro-illegals caused the problems,if anyone should pay the extra taxes it should be the businesses that knowingly hired illegals and the property owners who knowingly rented to illegals.
QuoteWhat are you, a teenager or a Republican? Either way, that's the kind of talk you hear from people who don't take responsibility for their actions.
Responsibility?If you were responsible you would not tolerate lawlessness too instead of trying to make asinine excuses for criminal behavior.
Here is Jamerage's actual impression
Dear friend,
YEAH!! WE WON!!,ILLEGALS AND THE PRO-ILLEGALS SCUM LOST,WE WON YOU LOST.If the other 49 states did what Oklahoma did we would not 12-20 million illegals in this country.Thank God Oklahoma exercised some common sense and dwelt with the illegal immigration problems in our state and thank God Oklahoma law makers did not listen to sell out businesses and other pro-illegals scum.
James, do you realize that you posted the same thing yesterday, and that I responded to each of your problems? Nevertheless:
1. "Pro-illegals caused the problems,if anyone should pay the extra taxes it should be the businesses that knowingly hired illegals and the property owners who knowingly rented to illegals." I barely know what this means...whose a "pro-illegal"? But, whatever, how are you going to selectively tax these people. You keep repeating this, so, either you think it's funny or you think it's a good idea. So, how?
2."Responsibility?If you were responsible you would not tolerate lawlessness too instead of trying to make asinine excuses for criminal behavior." If you would read, you would clearly see that I do not condone criminality nor do I make excuses for it. If I "tolerate" lawlessness it is because I am not a federal law enforcement officer. How am I to know whether someone is documented or not? This vigilantism you call for is what's "asinine" and illegal.
3. "What sales taxes have illegals been paying?" Taxes on food, clothing, entertainment, fuel...they do everything that you and I do to survive between paychecks.
4. "Dear friend, YEAH!! WE WON!!..." Yep, that reads about the same as my impression save for the fact that you still don't recognize that your actions have consequences. Who's going to reward Oklahoma for your bigoted new laws? Who's really going to pay for the losses when 20,000 people leave this City? Obviously, you don't know the answers to these questions because I've asked them before. You fail to recognize that your actions will have consequences and that you are responsible for your actions. That's childlike behavior.
quote:
Originally posted by Lister
Well, when it's all said and done, they are leaving and that's a good thing. It seems like many of you want illegals here to profit off their sweat without regard to the law. You keep talking about the economics of it all. If that's not taking advantage of a whole group of people then I don't know what is.
No. I want all the undocumented workers to be documented as guest workers and treated as such. Because that's exactly what they've been doing here for years and years at the request of their AMERICAN employers.
When good people leave Tulsa, it's never a good thing. It's a VERY BAD thing. It was a pleasant surprise to see more ethnic areas in the city of Tulsa. Tulsa needed it, badly. I was afraid I'd miss that after moving from the "Little Pakistan" area of Chicago last year... I live in an apt complex in east Tulsa.
If the hispanic FAMILIES in my complex leave because of the racists in this city who pretend they're not being racists, you know what we've got left in my apt complex?!?
Young punks, drug dealers, redneck trailer trash on SSI and more possible methlabs. At that point, I'll probably have to leave, too...
I'm glad that my old bowling alley at Tiffany Lanes is filled with tax paying hispanic businesses compared to the boarded up shell that is the old Rose Bowl these days... I'm glad that Executive Mall is filled with taxpaying businesses and that the old Skate World that could easily have been boarded up is now a supermercado.... and I hated that a co-worker and friend of mine is leaving with her family... she didn't come here from Mexico, she's from Houston, speaks perfect English and speaks Spanish, but even after living here in Tulsa for the past five years, she doesn't want her family to have to put up with the current atmosphere of xenophobia and racism... that's right, I said racism.
And yes. What this state is currently doing under the guise of a get-tough approach is wrong.
And even if it is unintentional, this is institutional racism. I grew up here. I know that NOBODY claims to be a racist in Oklahoma anymore. It's passe. So instead, these days the usual suspects just use the same law-and-order code-words on a message board...
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I hope we haven't reached the breaking point...
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
NOBODY claims to be a racist in Oklahoma anymore. It's passe.
I admit to being a racist.
In that I admit to thinking "probably illegal" when I see Mexican day Laborers or a house that has 6 Hispanic males living in it or deal with someone that is Hispanic and speaks very little English.
When I see a black youth with a "rag" on and baggy jeans down to his crotch pinned to his shirt so that I can see his boxers my first thoughts are that this is probably a worthless gang banger and wonder why he is not at work. When I see a black man dressed well that is articulate it actually stands out as something out of the ordinary. That's racist, I know it.
When I see an Asian guy with glasses and a collared shirt I assume he is a successful business man or engineer. At oriental restaurants I'm secretly disappointed if the staff doesn't speak in Engrish.
When I see a white person in a beat up pickup with mud caked on or wearing a shirt with sleeves torn sleeves off their flannel shirt or, god forbid, a fat chick in a halter top - I assume they are hicks from "down yonder" that are "in the city" for something. Typical white trash I suppose. A racist stereo type. When I see a white guy dressed link a gangster he is a "wanna be." Goths, punks... all have their stereo types.
I eyeball Arab men in airports. Arab women in veils or robes draw my attention, I guess I'm thinking they are weak or repressed.
I can not help but glance conspicuously at a Sihk that goes to TU and wears a turban. Not sure what I think about that.
I harbor these impressions and they are racist. I understand that and KNOW that they are not correct and that even thinking such things is not kosher. However, knowing that I am able to remind myself that I'm an idiot and try to take things beyond face value. People dress as they want to dress, are born whatever color they are born, and leave as they want to live... it is not necessarily indicative of the rest of who they are.
Its my belief that most people have a guttural reaction based on first appearances - including race. I'm just willing to admit it, deal with it, and move on. People are people, appearance only gives you a best guess at what they are like - and it often isn't very good.
Slightly off topic, but there ya' have it.
Well, Mr. Fodder gets credit for being honest.
When I see a White man in a Mercedes I think who did he kill to get that (or how many subprime loans did he write, how much income has he misstated on his tax returns, how often has he pressed his advantage against unsophisticated people).
I suspect that if I had a day or two to spend with most Oklahomans I could come up with a list of laws they break on a regular basis. Aren't a very large number of Tulsans driving without insurance? This image of native Oklahomans marching through life completely within the bounds of the law is ludicrous.
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Aren't a very large number of Tulsans driving without insurance?
Yeah. Many of them simultaneously happen to be illegal aliens...
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Originally posted by Hometown
Well, Mr. Fodder gets credit for being honest.
When I see a White man in a Mercedes I think who did he kill to get that (or how many subprime loans did he write, how much income has he misstated on his tax returns, how often has he pressed his advantage against unsophisticated people).
I suspect that if I had a day or two to spend with most Oklahomans I could come up with a list of laws they break on a regular basis. Aren't a very large number of Tulsans driving without insurance? This image of native Oklahomans marching through life completely within the bounds of the law is ludicrous.
What do you think when you see a black man in a pinstripe suit driving a Mercedes?
A couple of funny stories from my career and dealing with perception... early in my banking career I worked in OKC and called on several banks in the western part of the state. I quickly learned that if I pulled up in front of a bank in a 10 year old BMW with 100M miles on it worth no more than $3,000 that the bank president would look out his window and think.. "that boy is making too much money on my account". Whereas I could pull up in a brand new Ford F-250 dooley with leather interior that cost $35,000 and the bank president would walk out front to meet me and say.."that's a nice truck son".
I also called on a bank in Sallisaw and I got to the door at the same time as an elderly couple. I held the door open for them and as they entered the lady of the couple looked at me and asked "are you a salesman or an examiner? The only people in this town that wear suits are salemen and examiners". She was right of course.
I guess the point is we all deal with and have to be sensitive to the impressions we give. Even us WASP's....
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Originally posted by Conan71
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Originally posted by Hometown
Well, Mr. Fodder gets credit for being honest.
When I see a White man in a Mercedes I think who did he kill to get that (or how many subprime loans did he write, how much income has he misstated on his tax returns, how often has he pressed his advantage against unsophisticated people).
I suspect that if I had a day or two to spend with most Oklahomans I could come up with a list of laws they break on a regular basis. Aren't a very large number of Tulsans driving without insurance? This image of native Oklahomans marching through life completely within the bounds of the law is ludicrous.
What do you think when you see a black man in a pinstripe suit driving a Mercedes?
He's an ath-a-leet...
Could you please indicate sarcasm when that is your intent on this looney forum. I want to be able to seperate the bigots from the rest of you good people.
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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Could you please indicate sarcasm when that is your intent on this looney forum. I want to be able to seperate the bigots from the rest of you good people.
Those standing on your side of the room would constitute "the bigots." Everyone else is just part of the conspiracy. Tell us da Twoof!
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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Could you please indicate sarcasm when that is your intent on this looney forum. I want to be able to seperate the bigots from the rest of you good people.
Some days I'm a bigot. Some days I'm a good person. It depends on which of my multiple personalities wakes up first that morning.
THE VOICES! OH THE VOICES!!!!!
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Originally posted by iplaw
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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Could you please indicate sarcasm when that is your intent on this looney forum. I want to be able to seperate the bigots from the rest of you good people.
Those standing on your side of the room would constitute "the bigots." Everyone else is just part of the conspiracy. Tell us da Twoof!
MODS?
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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
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Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Could you please indicate sarcasm when that is your intent on this looney forum. I want to be able to seperate the bigots from the rest of you good people.
Those standing on your side of the room would constitute "the bigots." Everyone else is just part of the conspiracy. Tell us da Twoof!
MODS?
Paul Tay is that you.....?
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Originally posted by Breadburner
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Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
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Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Could you please indicate sarcasm when that is your intent on this looney forum. I want to be able to seperate the bigots from the rest of you good people.
Those standing on your side of the room would constitute "the bigots." Everyone else is just part of the conspiracy. Tell us da Twoof!
MODS?
Paul Tay is that you.....?
Not Tay. Not enough gibberish.